00:00:00 <ehird> http://code.google.com/p/virtualagc/source/browse/trunk/Luminary099/LUNAR_LANDING_GUIDANCE_EQUATIONS.s
00:00:10 <ehird> http://code.google.com/p/virtualagc/source/browse/trunk/Luminary099/LUNAR_LANDING_GUIDANCE_EQUATIONS.s?r=258
00:01:35 <pikhq> I am so glad I have higher level languages.
00:04:00 <nooga> i don't believe the comments are real
00:04:13 <ehird> i don't believe that unicorns don't exist
00:04:37 <ehird> nooga: get the images from http://www.ibiblio.org/apollo/
00:06:38 <ehird> admittedly i can't find where they are
00:06:49 <nooga> anyway it must've been cool to interface a spaceship
00:07:00 <ehird> more like fucking scary
00:07:41 <ehird> gotta get it totally right, everyone in the world is watching, and if you screw up, you've killed 3 highly intelligent cultural icons and ruined the dream of the fulfillment of JFK's wish: the single biggest accomplishment of humanity to date
00:13:16 <nooga> brobably that's why ADA was created
00:13:33 <ehird> and Ada doesn't help you write algorithms that work
00:13:40 <ehird> it just stops stupid semantic errors
00:13:42 <ehird> as opposed to logical ones
00:15:33 <ehird> fungot: Further our inevitable doom.
00:15:33 <fungot> ehird: ( e) if there were more than one order, the clerk of the
00:15:35 <ehird> fungot: Further our inevitable doom.
00:20:02 <nooga> heard of Clojure ?
00:23:27 <nooga> but it's less awkward than erlang
00:24:01 <ehird> Uhh, if you're on crack.
00:26:05 <pikhq> Uh, there's nothing particularly awkward about Erlang.
00:26:52 <pikhq> Shame that its type system isn't that complex.
00:27:24 <nooga> i don't know erlang but it seems awkward
00:27:32 <ehird> what a stupid metric
00:27:45 <pikhq> Compared to sexps?
00:27:46 <ehird> i'll tell you what's awkward
00:27:59 <ehird> clojure is a lisp without the lisp, merely a gutted shell on top of the oh-so-hateful JVM
00:28:10 <ehird> its primitives suck, its immutability isn't handled well, making it awkward
00:28:15 <ehird> and it uses java threads for concurrency
00:28:21 <ehird> thus making it useless for massive concurrenccy
00:28:31 <ehird> …so we get all these compromises for no reward
00:28:35 <ehird> on a horrible platform
00:28:41 <ehird> sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeet
00:29:10 <pikhq> Except for compiling to a common bytecode. ... Which Haskell can do without the compromises.
00:29:25 <pikhq> (someone made a Haskell->JVM compiler)
00:29:36 <ehird> and is unmaintained
00:29:41 <ehird> and also has terrible performance
00:29:46 <ehird> because it generates awful code
00:29:49 <ehird> and just yeah don't even go there
00:29:58 <pikhq> ehird: Well, it's not like JVM is meant as a general-purpose bytecode.
00:30:16 <pikhq> It's suitable for Java, and a few other languages manage to work with it.
00:33:01 <nooga> java and jvm sucks
00:33:05 <ehird> fast turnaround there
00:33:37 <nooga> did i say that clojure is cool and erlang is crap?
00:33:54 <nooga> i've said that clojure sucks but it's less awkward than erlang
00:34:07 <ehird> clojure is pretty much the worst new language
00:34:24 <pikhq> Erlang is not very awkward.
00:34:43 <nooga> okay, it has an awkward name
00:34:51 <pikhq> Weird-ass psuedo-sexps, that's awkward.
00:35:35 <ehird> Erlang is very Sveedish.
00:36:05 <nooga> i want a language that lets me write program as if it were written for a single computer and then run it on a multiple nodes as a raw machine code !
00:36:25 <pikhq> Erlang's the closest to that.
00:37:12 <ehird> nooga: what you ask for is impossible
00:37:21 <ehird> automatic parallelization has to figure out what options are significant and which aren't
00:37:24 <nooga> not on a level of language
00:37:29 <ehird> otherwise you parallelize everything and the overhead breaks it down
00:37:34 <ehird> you have to specify
00:37:36 <ehird> there's no free lunch
00:37:47 <ehird> we just need languages that express concurrency more fluently
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00:39:03 <pikhq> ehird: Haskell and Erlang seem to be doing a decent job at that.
00:39:10 <nooga> i was thinking out loud
00:39:12 <ehird> you need a total restating
00:39:50 <pikhq> What, are you not even happy with STM?
00:39:57 <ehird> pikhq: that's about concurrent state
00:40:00 <ehird> an idea just popped into my head!
00:40:06 <ehird> very colourless and green
00:40:09 <ehird> it's sleeping furiously atm
00:40:25 <ehird> but i think i can represent distributed computation … thingies as objects that … thingy
00:40:38 <ehird> but the imagery was nice!
00:40:48 <pikhq> foo `par` (bar `seq` baz foo bar)
00:41:11 <ehird> pikhq: i get you're a haskell fanboy but it's not a panacea
00:41:48 <pikhq> IF HASKELL IS NOT THE RIGHT SOLUTION ITS NOT WORTH DOING
00:42:08 <ehird> What about its not worth doing?
00:42:22 <ehird> Alternatively: Your wrong bitch.
00:46:28 <nooga> ehird: very colourless and green << synesthesis ?
00:46:43 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorless_green_ideas_sleep_furiously
00:47:35 <nooga> chomsky is completely wrong
00:48:28 <nooga> people will automatically find meaning in any phrase
00:49:54 <nooga> you can't compose a phrase completely without meaning
00:50:36 <ehird> nooga: monogamous aardvark tetragrammaton ovulating invisible pink unicorns on the stair that is not a stair that is a flower that is a train that is that which is not that which can be described as it where it is not itself where itself refers to the whole whole and it is it but it is not it
00:50:53 <ehird> that latter part is so easy to find meaning in
00:52:24 <nooga> nonsensical but still, lovers of modern poetry would find something about dying whales here
00:52:40 <ehird> While the meaninglessness of the sentence is often considered fundamental to Chomsky's point, Chomsky was relying upon this only to ensure that the sentences had never been spoken before. Thus, even if one were to prescribe a likely and reasonable meaning to the sentence, the grammaticalness of the sentences are concrete despite being the first time a person had ever heard that phrase, or those words in such a combination.
00:52:43 <ehird> In conclusion, you fail.
00:57:45 <pikhq> Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.
00:57:53 <ehird> that's what we're "discussing"
00:58:11 <pikhq> I was making an observation concerning ideas.
00:59:36 * nooga is reading about C under plan9
00:59:45 <nooga> and.... LOOOOKS KEWL!
01:00:13 <ehird> well, you have some taste at least
01:09:48 <ehird> The mouse thing? No.
01:10:14 <ehird> This is an informal reference manual for the concurrent language Newsqueak.
01:10:14 <ehird> Newsqueak’s roots are in Squeak, a language designed a few years ago by Luca Cardelli andRob Pike to illustrate concurrent solutions to problems in user interface design.
01:10:19 <ehird> It's not Smalltalk at all.
01:10:32 <ehird> This looks quite ordinary.
01:12:09 <nooga> channels are pretty good idea
01:24:04 <nooga> they had Unix like OS called CROOK on MERA 400 computers at my university in 70's
01:24:31 <nooga> and i've got perforated tapes from that computer
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03:44:11 <Warrigal> Ōr shoold Ī dōō sumthing ūsf@l insted?
03:44:41 <GregorR> I eat macrons for breakfast.
03:44:56 <Warrigal> Līk figūring owt how tō tīp ə.
03:45:34 * Warrigal səlects it and plans tō rīght-click.
04:09:04 <GregorR> "You're the banana king, Charlie!" "No, I'm not! That doesn't even make sense!"
04:32:28 <pikhq> FILE *file = !fopen "filename" r!;!fprintf file "Hello, world\!\n"!;!fclose file!; // Let there be a nice C macro system.
04:38:06 <pikhq> Too much boilerplate. Needs moar metaprogramming.
04:38:45 <pikhq> (note: fopen, fprintf, and fclose all can result in errors.)
04:47:54 <bsmntbombdood> i wonder why you're not allowed to cast void pointers to function pointers
04:49:01 <GregorR> Because on certain platforms, data pointers and code pointers aren't the same length.
04:49:19 <GregorR> e.g. 16-bit DOS with code all in the lower 16-bit and data in 24-bit space.
04:50:07 <pikhq> GregorR: Actually, on DOS, there's more than one type of data pointer.
04:50:16 <pikhq> Near pointers are 16-bit, far are 24-bit.
04:50:58 <GregorR> Sure, but with the right compiler flags, void * is always 32-bit, and void (*)() is always 16-bit.
04:51:06 <GregorR> (Arguably, s/right/wrong/ :P)
04:51:41 <bsmntbombdood> i can't remember, are you allowed to cast between function pointers?
04:52:17 <GregorR> Not implicitly, obviously.
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10:55:38 <ehird> 03:51 bsmntbombdood: i can't remember, are you allowed to cast between function pointers?
10:55:50 <ehird> presumably not between (fptr →) and (ptr →)
11:02:10 <Deewiant> Not even between two function pointer types
11:02:27 <Deewiant> Or you can cast, but you can't call it unless you cast back
11:02:41 <Deewiant> (Well, you can, but it's undefined.)
11:06:16 <fizzie> It *would* be quite a surprise if it actually were legal to call a function with the wrong type of pointer.
11:07:03 <Deewiant> Well, the type might actually be right, but if you originally got it as a wrong type it's still not allowed.
11:08:16 <fizzie> But you just said you can call it when you cast it back.
11:09:10 <Deewiant> fizzie: Only if it started life as the right type.
11:09:34 <Deewiant> It might be that the case I'm thinking off is actually impossible.
11:09:39 <fizzie> How can you "start life" as the wrong type? I mean, you get a function pointer by taking the address of a function, and that's the right type.
11:10:27 <fizzie> I have indeed been under the impression that things are very difficult with function pointers, what with there being no void-pointer style thing there.
11:11:17 <Deewiant> wrongtype fp = (wrongtype)&foo; (*(righttype)(fp))();
11:11:26 <Deewiant> But that works since &foo is righttype.
11:11:39 <fizzie> Right, http://c-faq.com/ptrs/generic.html
11:11:53 <fizzie> "It is guaranteed, however, that all function pointers can be interconverted, as long as they are converted back to an appropriate type before calling."
11:21:19 <ehird> i cast function pointers quite often
11:24:39 <Deewiant> Welcome to the club of every C programmer ever: your code may not be portable
11:41:27 <ehird> "The Ace clones from Franklin Computer Corporation are the best known and had the most lasting impact, as Franklin copied Apple's ROMs and software and freely admitted to doing so. Franklin's argument: a computer's ROM was simply a pattern of switches locked into a fixed position, and one cannot copyright a pattern of switches. Apple fought Franklin in court for about five years to get its clones off the market, and was ultimately successful when a court
11:41:30 <ehird> ruled that software stored in ROM was in fact copyrightable in United States. (See Apple Computer, Inc. v. Franklin Computer Corp.)"
11:41:40 <ehird> Just go and create software copyright why don'tcha
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12:06:00 <nooga> i feel urge to write a thin layer on top of C to enable defining operators
12:06:24 <nooga> and array literals
12:07:34 <ehird> nooga: i want to shoot people who refuse to get into a language and instead just write shit that they already know in it.
12:07:43 <ehird> be warned, for i have an invisible gun.
12:08:33 <ehird> but not decently, as shown
12:09:05 <nooga> try to write vector equations using function calls
12:09:13 <nooga> looks ugly, hard to debug
12:09:19 <ehird> stop using c for writing such things.
12:10:05 <ehird> nooga: Fuck. This. Impression. C is not always fast. C is not the only fast language. And if you're doing v2 = (v0 + v1) / blah blah blah, it's going to entirely consist of function calls.
12:10:09 <ehird> To functions… implemented in C.
12:10:15 <ehird> It would be incredibly difficult to make that slow.
12:12:01 <nooga> i just need a specialized preprocessor to make my program look nicer
12:13:01 <ehird> i'm glad i'll never touch any of your code
12:13:47 <nooga> why do you negate all my ideas
12:14:04 <ehird> you have a great propensity for bad ones
12:15:03 <ehird> i also have opinions like "2 + 2 = 4", "killing people is bad" etc
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12:21:53 <ehird> Slereah: what is your point?
12:22:09 <ehird> i could be totally misunderstanding the axioms
12:22:18 <ehird> and hallucinating everyone else who says that 2 + 2 = 4
12:22:28 <Slereah> Well, while they're abstract concepts, you know what I mean
12:22:44 <ehird> Slereah: who says i'm not mentally insane
12:22:51 <ehird> maybe everyone's been saying 2 + 2 = 5
12:22:55 <ehird> maybe there's a proof of it
12:23:00 <ehird> maybe my display is actually a toaster!
12:23:10 <ehird> (ok, so this is a bit of a slippery slope because everything becomes an opinion.)
12:23:15 <Slereah> Well yeah, but with that kind of attitude, everything is "an opinion"
12:23:25 <Slereah> I'm not even sure opinion would be the correct word here
12:23:47 <ehird> i started listing just factual stuff, but then decided he wouldn't understand if i didn't put in a generally accepted opinion
12:24:12 <Slereah> Dude, you put two things in here
12:24:19 <Slereah> Don't say "I started listing"
12:30:42 <nooga> ehird: i can't imagine how my idea can be bad, we're on channel that's about mainly useless and twisted programming languages that break RULES
12:30:58 <ehird> because we don't put esolangs in Actual Real Systems.
12:31:03 <ehird> we're here specifically BECAUSE we never would.
12:31:13 <ehird> (ok, maybe AnMaster would, but nobody sane would tell him to program something)
12:31:53 <nooga> okay, and if i say that i'd like to create a language with pleasant syntax that resembles C and compiles to C ?
12:32:09 <AnMaster> ehird, I might joke about doing that, not sure if I actually would.
12:32:10 <ehird> i think you're missing the point.
12:32:27 <nooga> C has pleasant syntax
12:32:43 <AnMaster> what are you comparing C to then? PHP?
12:33:21 <ehird> ADD SYNTACTIC EXTENSIONS TO C GIVING NOOGA'S FUCKED UP CHIMERA LANGUAGE
12:33:22 <AnMaster> yes there are worse languages than C. Lots of worse ones. But calling the C syntax "pleasant" seems backwards.
12:34:29 <ehird> AnMaster: that second syntax could be said as just "Lots."
12:34:37 <ehird> also, i don't think "worse" works there
12:34:49 <ehird> that's why it sounded awkward
12:35:06 <ehird> alsothereshouldbeacommaafter"yes"</pedant>
12:35:07 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: that second syntax could be said as just "Lots." <-- err, which second one? I did holistic reading of the scrollback when I was highlighted.
12:35:18 <ehird> 12:33 AnMaster: yes there are worse languages than C. Lots of worse ones. But calling the C syntax "pleasant" seems backwards.
12:35:25 <ehird> yes, there are worse languages than C. Many. But calling the C syntax "pleasant" seems backwards.
12:35:36 <ehird> not sure how to make it sound OK with the second sentence still being redundant
12:37:04 <nooga> ok, haskell syntax is pleasand
12:38:22 <AnMaster> a short list of "worse syntax than C": PHP, COBOL, AppleScript, C++, BASIC
12:41:48 <ehird> ehh i'm sorta tempted to defend applescript because for simple OS scripting tasks it writes more smoothly than a sigiled up syntax imo, butttttttttttt i don't exactly -like- the syntax
12:44:05 <nooga> joy has pleasant syntax
13:23:00 <ehird> A proposed slogan for David Icke: Not Rapture— Raptor!
13:27:54 <ehird> On a "REPTILIAN SHAPESHIFT OH GOD VIDEO", YouTube:
13:27:55 <ehird> ccon69 (4 days ago) +1 Reply | Spam
13:27:55 <ehird> You can't do this kind of analysis with YouTube quality video and to even try show's you have limited intellect.
13:27:58 <ehird> gillamrl (4 days ago) Reply
13:28:00 <ehird> You have no clue about frequency.
13:28:02 <ehird> FLV is the format for truth........
13:28:04 <ehird> ccon69 (1 day ago) +1 Reply | Spam
13:28:06 <ehird> FLV is low quality video and to do a video analysis in this format is a waste of time.
13:28:08 <ehird> gillamrl (17 hours ago) Reply
13:28:10 <ehird> Wrong FLV allows us to peer through the other dimension.
13:28:14 <ehird> FLV: the dimension-peering truth frequency format!
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13:40:22 <AnMaster> ehird, I didn't say applescript didn't get the job done. :P
13:40:45 <ehird> AnMaster: what i was trying to say is that applescript would be less useful for OS scripting tasks if it had a more typical syntax, IMO
13:41:02 <ehird> since it's almost all simple function calls, really, and those fit very easily into the natural language model
13:41:17 <ehird> there's still the problem of the "Why doesn't it understand my English?!", though
13:41:25 <ehird> even if the syntax is as formal as any other language
13:42:11 <AnMaster> ehird, but try to do something with any sort of flow control in it. Sure it can be done. Just not very nicely. And doing something like "for each foo in bar { some typical scripting task on each here }" isn't so unusual for scripting :P
13:42:50 <AnMaster> ehird, oh another thing, at least on classical Mac OS, it was hard to find good docs on syntax and such. Everything was tutorial style rather than reference guide style
13:43:29 <AnMaster> so you had to look at what other scripts did to find out the syntax for the handler thing ("on xxx" iirc? Was ages ago I coded in it...)
13:43:30 <ehird> i'm pretty sure applescript has a standard each-loop
13:43:35 <ehird> and also ifs and the like
13:43:49 <ehird> AnMaster: i think it's better nowadays
13:43:55 <ehird> still, there's not much to learn, really
13:43:58 <ehird> AnMaster: also, you can view the Dictionaries
13:44:05 <ehird> applescripty applications come with full API documentation
13:44:10 <AnMaster> but that doesn't help for the syntax
13:44:36 <ehird> but that's a tiny part; even things like (say "Hello." with "voice") are part of a service
13:44:50 <AnMaster> Oh and "set item of container to value" instead of "container.item = value". Means you have to jump back and forth a bit there when reading the script.
13:45:12 <ehird> AnMaster: "set container's item to value"
13:45:56 <ehird> but applescript could be better, inded
13:46:17 <oerjan> <ehird> ADD SYNTACTIC EXTENSIONS TO C GIVING NOOGA'S FUCKED UP CHIMERA LANGUAGE <-- this would be META-COBOL, i guess?
13:46:30 <ehird> Coding in it is Metabolism.
13:46:35 <AnMaster> ehird, what about stuff like creating scripts that look like applications? And where you can drop things on? On classical MacOS how to do that wasn't documented, except well hidden inside an unrelated SDK (NOT the "AppleScript SDK", I think it was in "ColorSync SDK"(!)) as a comment in a script included with it.
13:47:13 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm not sure you can do arbitrary Cocoa stuff, but basic dialog stuff is well documented. Pretty sure once you get to that point you're meant to start up Xcode and brush up on your Objective-C.
13:47:20 <ehird> If it was in ColorSync SDK it was probably just meant for that.
13:47:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I meant as in, making the script an app that you can drop files on
13:47:35 <AnMaster> it was used in lots of places by apple
13:47:42 <ehird> I'd be surprised if that's not well-documented nowadays. I'll take a look.
13:48:24 <ehird> AnMaster: It's not in ColorSyncScripting, which is a good indicator.
13:48:54 <AnMaster> back then it was a single SDK for scripting and C interface at least. hm
13:50:24 <ehird> It might be in System Events or something. Too lazy to look further.
13:52:08 <ehird> http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2009/02/08/linglish-or-some-thoughts-on-a-scripting-language-for-the-linux-desktop and http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2009/02/11/more-thoughts-on-linglish looks basically like AppleScript for D-Bus (so, uh, mostly gnome; KDE uses dcop doesn't it?)
13:52:20 <ehird> well it looks EXACTLY like that, not "basically" :P
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13:55:36 <ehird> I remember that one of the things that made me fall in love with KDE 3 was that article "KDE Rocks!" or whatever, that I can't find any more; it had a whole section on doing cool shit with dcop.
13:55:43 <ehird> It was wonderful to have such a ubiquitous environment; very much like an object system.
13:56:37 <ehird> Wow: http://computer-dating.com/
13:56:48 <ehird> Copyright 1995–1997 indeed.
13:56:53 <ehird> (Note: That's an en dash, that.)
13:57:47 <oerjan> down at the wiki, the wiki is down
14:08:59 <ehird> anyone remember the KDE Rocks article?
14:09:08 <ehird> it was just a huge list with screenshots of awesome KDE 3 magic
14:09:18 <ehird> like kparts k... url things
14:12:04 * Sgeo is falling in love with web2py
14:13:34 <ehird> and the author is a troll and spammer
14:15:08 <Sgeo> How is it awful?
14:15:17 <Leonidas> ehird: and tells his friends to spam reddit ^^
14:15:28 <ehird> Sgeo: the code is incredibly unpythonic and badly written,
14:15:35 <ehird> the administration interface is cheesy and unhelpful beyond a point,
14:15:39 <Leonidas> Sgeo: ugly code, and massimo does not have a clue on ahything
14:15:44 <ehird> he constantly spams reddit with articles about django and shit and how his is so much better
14:15:47 <ehird> while giving veiled praise to django
14:15:49 <ehird> to elevate his opinions
14:15:57 <ehird> he teaches a class where he basically indoctrinates the students to love web2py
14:16:03 <ehird> then gets them to spam reddit all with loving posts about it
14:16:06 <ehird> and criticism of django
14:16:18 <ehird> terrible concepts, terrible code, terrible authorr
14:16:24 <Leonidas> I had some message from massimo where he was asked whether web2py supports ORMs or something and hias answer was "dunno".
14:16:34 <Sgeo> The developer being a bad person ...... wait what?
14:16:41 <ehird> Sgeo: apparently you can't read ↑↑↑↑
14:16:59 <ehird> spammer, troll and clueless
14:17:07 <Sgeo> Does e not know what an ORM is?
14:17:29 <Leonidas> Sgeo: I got that impression from that mail, yes.
14:17:30 <ehird> Sgeo: even if he does, he's continually shown his cluelessness about all such things
14:17:40 <ehird> the site listed on his university page was made with iWeb :-)
14:17:47 <ehird> (bundled point-and-click, templated site creator w/ OS X)
14:17:55 <Leonidas> Sgeo: in the meantime, he implemented an "ORM" by himself, so apparently now he knows what it is
14:18:09 <ehird> Leonidas: ugh, i think i remember that one
14:18:19 <ehird> wasn't it basically mangled SQL with UPPERCASE METHOD NAMES and a bunch of crazy conventions
14:18:37 <ehird> ooh, who could forget "KPAX CMS"? it's social wiki blog chat news groups and has permissions!
14:18:58 <Leonidas> If I want a framework which I have to unfuck by myself, I'd rather go with web.py
14:19:20 <Leonidas> If I want a framework thats not fucked up in the first place, I stay away from both
14:19:29 <ehird> web.py is better nowadays
14:19:36 <ehird> but i prefer something a little more full-stack.
14:19:49 * Sgeo has already spoiled himself on web2py :(
14:19:51 <ehird> dammit, i may be a minimalist, but that means i don't want to write the redundant glue code
14:20:03 <Sgeo> Now, how do I reorient my brain towards Django?
14:20:05 <ehird> Sgeo: if you think you're spoiled on it, you must be the starving african child of web framework users
14:20:28 <ehird> Leonidas: aaronsw went on to make some sort of transparent government site and blogs about crap and i think he develpos web.py
14:20:32 <ehird> so ummm not much as far as i know
14:20:32 <Leonidas> oh, and the "enterpriseyness" of web2py with the focus on the admin interface it just ridiculous
14:20:59 <ehird> enterprise is another word for cheesy
14:21:29 <ehird> Leonidas: isn't that a bit redundant
14:22:09 <Leonidas> ehird: no, because EE puts a new dimension of bloat on top of the ridiculous problems of java. IMO
14:22:26 <ehird> i thankfully have not used it.
14:22:58 <Leonidas> Sgeo: or maybe checkout the 4-letters-frameworks with have appeared recently
14:23:23 <Leonidas> ehird: I tried using it, but the complexity to start with put me off
14:23:31 <ehird> whadya mean by 4 letters
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14:24:20 <Leonidas> ehird: http://simonwillison.net/2009/May/19/djng/ + juno, newf, mnml, itty
14:24:37 <Leonidas> or bottle, although that has too many letters.
14:24:49 <Leonidas> at least bottle has a sane author.
14:24:59 <ehird> a minimalist thing isn't really minimal if to use it for its intended purpose you have to do a lot of complicated things
14:25:02 <ehird> (writing glue code)
14:25:27 <ehird> "bottle.py is a fast and simple mirco-framework for small web-applications." // "mirco"; good first impression
14:26:09 <Leonidas> ehird: yep, I already mentioned it to the author, at least he fixed his signature ^^
14:26:34 <ehird> anyway web programming is so boring.
14:26:56 <ehird> ack is such an ambiguous word
14:26:58 <Leonidas> ehird: have some experience with these mini-frameworks?
14:27:00 <ehird> it's either "ack!" or ACK
14:27:05 <ehird> and they mean basically opposites :D
14:27:16 <Sgeo> web2py has HTML forum creation coupled with the model, I think
14:27:16 <ehird> Leonidas: no, i stopped batting around python frameworks like a year ago
14:27:27 <Sgeo> Which is worrisome, but convenient
14:27:27 <ehird> Sgeo: "HTML forum creation"; nice Freudian slip.
14:27:39 <Leonidas> Sgeo: django has it too, but decoupled
14:27:41 <ehird> I wouldn't be surprised if it embedded whole forum softwares in unrelated models.
14:27:43 <ehird> What Leonidas said.
14:28:15 <Leonidas> ehird: maybe I meant ack-grep and typed into the wrong window ;)
14:28:20 <ehird> Django has everything web2py does apart from the terrible code, lack of community, stupid write-code-in-a-web-interface, lack of modularity, and lack of nice features
14:28:27 <ehird> (that as, nice addon features)
14:28:33 <ehird> (NOT random crap bolted on to the core)
14:29:35 <Leonidas> write-code-in-a-web-interface is a great idea from Zope until they realized that it sucks badly.
14:30:07 <ehird> Leonidas: "it's a great idea that sucks badly"? :D
14:30:25 <ehird> a good way of making a decision on whether something is pythonic is to see if zope does it
14:30:28 <ehird> if they do, it's unpythonic
14:30:29 <Leonidas> sarcasm does not transmit well over irc
14:30:35 <ehird> Leonidas: i guessed it was sarcasm
14:30:37 <ehird> just funny phrasing
14:30:49 <ehird> hmm, zope has an object database actually
14:30:50 <ehird> and those are quite nice
14:30:56 <ehird> so my rule doesn't always apply :P
14:31:06 <ehird> (its OODB has a bloated api though)
14:31:14 * Leonidas even uses funny phrases in spoken sentences, so people sometimes go 'WTF?'
14:31:48 <Leonidas> ehird: theres also Durus, though I don't see the point, since ZODB works even without Zope
14:32:00 <ehird> people pronouncing wtf make me want to stab people >:|
14:32:04 <ehird> Leonidas: Durus has a lot nicer API
14:32:17 <ehird> and Zope crap tends to pull in weird Zope pie-in-the-sky architectural dependencies
14:32:27 <ehird> *Durus' API is a lot nicer
14:32:28 <Leonidas> sometimes I really wish I could just switch to an OODB and be done with it
14:32:31 <ehird> /much nicer, whatever
14:32:45 <ehird> Durus and ZODB don't handle things like search and stuff really though
14:32:49 <ehird> i mean not very well
14:33:05 <ehird> ...i hope i never use an SQL database much, though...
14:33:07 <Sgeo> I do like web2py's ORM to some extent: db(Article.id>3 and Article.name==test).select()
14:33:24 <ehird> Sgeo: Django does that but without the horrible abuse of syntax and comparison operators.
14:33:42 <Sgeo> ..the syntax is what I like about it
14:33:44 <Leonidas> I could implement my own OODB using pickles, but that would have every problem that ZODB has
14:33:56 <ehird> Sgeo: Your liking is wrong.
14:34:00 <Leonidas> Sgeo: SQLAlchemy has a similar syntax
14:34:08 <ehird> It's unpythonic, it breaks expectations, and it's not needed.
14:34:14 <Leonidas> sometimes I really wonder how the queries work
14:34:18 <ehird> You don't want it, you just think you do. :)
14:34:32 <ehird> (And I know why it's appealing; I wanted to make an ORM that did it once.)
14:34:34 <ehird> (Turns out it sucks.)
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14:51:32 <GregorR> Bleh, why can't I do kernel upgrades without reboots :P
14:52:15 <ehird> GregorR: ksplice bitchnizzle
14:52:20 <ehird> http://www.ksplice.com/ !
14:52:46 <ehird> It says it's just for Ubuntu, but it's a .deb, so.
14:52:58 <ehird> http://www.ksplice.com/uptrack/manualinstall
14:53:05 <GregorR> Guuuh ... this will let you change your KERNEL without reboot???
14:53:07 <ehird> Does Ksplice Uptrack support Kubuntu, Ubuntu Netbook Remix, and other Ubuntu variants or remixes?
14:53:08 <ehird> Yes. All of these variants are built on the same core, including the same Linux kernel packages. Note that the automatic installer does not work well in KDE and some other desktop environments, so you may need to follow the manual installation instructions. Once installed, the graphical Ksplice Uptrack manager will work in all desktop environments.
14:53:15 <ehird> Sometimes they need a patch, so you might be delayed by like a week.
14:53:20 <ehird> You don't have to restart X, even.
14:53:38 <GregorR> Judging by the website, I'm betting it's proprietary.
14:53:41 <ehird> Of course, they don't mention Debian, so YMMV, but you have backups, right?
14:53:50 <ehird> The Ksplice 0.9.8 utilities are available as an x86-32 binary distribution tarball, as an x86-64 binary distribution tarball, as a source code tarball, and in a Git repository. Old releases and GPG signatures are also available.
14:54:15 <GregorR> "Oh really" -> "ORLY" -> "Orally" = hilarious
14:54:35 <ehird> http://www.ksplice.com/example-update ;; Real kernel hackers develop in-place
14:54:46 -!- lambdabot has quit ("requested").
14:55:01 <ehird> Ding dong, the lambdabot is dead.
14:55:06 <ehird> "ksplice-undo — Undo a Ksplice update that has been applied to the running kernel"
14:55:10 <ehird> "Oh shit, my kernel's broken!"
14:55:14 <ehird> "I know, I'll just undo i— wait."
14:55:24 <GregorR> Apparently not TOO broken.
14:55:53 <ehird> from the homepage: "Experts agree that patching promptly is the most important practice for keeping systems secure."
14:58:24 * ehird notes that if GregorR installs it, either it'll work perfectly by using the debian repositories, or by sheer luck of compatibility, or he'll have to remove it from a livecd.
14:58:36 <ehird> On the other hand, WHO WANTS TO REBOOT
15:00:27 <ehird> I wonder how many people would call me insane for thinking that some Gnome software could and should be made even simpler.
15:01:06 <GregorR> So long as you keep "some" in there, fine.
15:01:12 <GregorR> I'll just continue not to use it :P
15:02:16 <ehird> Unopinionated software sucked.
15:02:38 <HackEgo> The only one of your children who does not grow up and move away \ is your husband.
15:02:47 <ehird> No. That's not what I meant. :P
15:03:08 <ehird> HackEgo: that's some incest.
15:03:15 <HackEgo> I am not a crook. \-- Richard Nixon
15:03:22 <ehird> Wow, that's… so offensive?
15:03:31 <HackEgo> One man's brain plus one other will produce one half as many ideas as one \ man would have produced alone. These two plus two more will produce half \ again as many ideas. These four plus four more begin to represent a \ creative meeting, and the ratio changes to one quarter as many ... \-- Anthony Chevins
15:03:33 <ehird> I mean I'm outraged.
15:03:53 <ehird> GregorR: Can you put apt in the environment kthx
15:04:08 <GregorR> Hahaha, I should just give it a full chroot :P
15:04:20 <GregorR> Anyway, apt wouldn't work under plash I suspect.
15:04:26 <ehird> Just a few lines, aye?
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15:26:38 <GregorR> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Famous_apes // I think I should add a "It has been suggested that Category:Famous_people be merged into this article" box to this.
15:37:57 * Sgeo needs to come up with some project to make so he can practice using Django
15:38:15 <Sgeo> Horrible idea: PSOX on the web
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15:43:31 <Sgeo> It would have a built-in Brainfuck interpreter, integrated with PSOX. People can submit brainfuck code and have it be run on the server
15:43:44 <Sgeo> Erm, Brainfuck/PSOX code
15:48:18 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:10:21 <ehird> Sgeo: write an Oracle game
16:10:34 <Sgeo> There already is one
16:11:08 <Sgeo> Unless you mean something else?
16:11:16 <Sgeo> http://www.oraclebot.com/ exists >.>
16:11:38 <ehird> Use all the fancy Django authentication and stuff, of course.
16:11:51 <ehird> Generic views too.
16:11:57 <ehird> Of course, that's not exactly trivial.
16:12:03 <ehird> Sgeo: to start off, follow the tutorial
16:12:13 <Sgeo> I've worked on a Django project before
16:12:26 <Sgeo> It used authentication, but not generic views
16:12:43 <Sgeo> I've read the tutorial before
16:12:53 <ehird> Read it again to remind your fresh.
16:12:57 <ehird> Refresh your mind, rather.
16:13:32 * Sgeo is reading a tutorial about AJAX and Django
16:13:52 <ehird> Sgeo: I wonder why you ask things when you don't want an answer different to yours.
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16:18:04 <ehird> chairs are the wrong shape.
16:18:20 <ehird> except not that slanted
16:23:24 * oerjan isn't sure what that second shape means
16:23:54 <oerjan> although i have seen chairs where you put your feet backwards
16:24:43 <oerjan> a friend had one, supposedly better for the back
16:25:11 <oerjan> i think the seat was slanted forward too
16:25:43 <AnMaster> ehird, um? I think you could turn this chair into either shape. It is one of those office chairs with too many levers.
16:26:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, you mean it was set so it could tilt freely backwards/forwards?
16:26:29 <oerjan> i don't recall how adjustable it was
16:26:49 <oerjan> i don't think you could have the legs forwards
16:27:05 <AnMaster> my chair has a lever to control free tilt/locket to position
16:27:08 <ehird> http://imgur.com/uuxZz.png ← this but with less fucked up proportions; jsut the basic idea
16:27:12 <ehird> also another grip at the top to hold you in
16:27:15 <ehird> (you clamp them on)
16:27:19 <ehird> (so, y'know, you don't fall out)
16:27:22 <ehird> but that's the basic idea
16:27:36 <ehird> i mean, obviously the top bit would bend back a bit more and the bottom wouldn't be as slanty blah blah
16:27:39 <AnMaster> ehird, you have *really* short legs?
16:27:40 <ehird> but you get the idea
16:27:47 <ehird> AnMaster: it's a fuckin' stick figure
16:28:03 <ehird> the guy at the left has a reaaaaaaaaaaally long spine
16:28:27 <ehird> if that was his neck
16:28:42 <ehird> it's a stick figure
16:28:44 <AnMaster> ehird, his *arms* are down there
16:28:54 <ehird> AnMaster: yes but most of them are aligned with the spine
16:28:59 <AnMaster> ehird, anway I can't go fully vertical in this chair, but quite close
16:29:15 <ehird> AnMaster: does it have clamp things to hold you in?
16:29:33 <AnMaster> ehird, close = about 30 degrees forward
16:29:46 <ehird> not really but it doesn't matter :)
16:30:19 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
16:40:09 <ehird> http://browsertoolkit.com/fault-tolerance.png
16:43:44 <ehird> "In concert with users online across the country, this session will lead a flashmob to populate Stack Overflow with R language content."
16:43:53 <ehird> Man, I forgot R was a programming language for a second.
16:46:29 <Sgeo> In the future, will http://djangogigs.com be a good way to look for a job?
16:46:47 <ehird> I'll look in my crystal ball.
16:47:02 <Sgeo> I mean, would it be considered a good way now?
16:47:14 <ehird> How are we supposed to know? Ask in #django
16:47:47 <ehird> The Y programming language is a small C-like programming language that is commonly used for peephole optimizers. // I read this as "pedophile optimizers"
16:48:14 <GregorR-L> We need more programming languages like that.
16:48:30 <ehird> GregorR-L: Ssh. Dateline are watching.
16:48:41 -!- nooga has quit (Client Quit).
16:49:13 <ehird> I hope they didn't **CHRIS HANSEN'S DISEMBODIED VOICE — Have a seat right there.** notice.
16:49:15 <oerjan> you keep having these nose problems.
16:49:24 <ehird> oerjan: he's got no nose
16:49:27 <ehird> he's longing for it
16:51:10 <GregorR-L> A nose, a nose, my kingdom for a nose.
16:51:48 <ehird> (GregorR-L actually still has his nose. His parents did that trick with the thumb to him as a kid and he's never looked in a mirror since out of shame.)
16:52:13 <ehird> Your nose is not a '.
16:52:45 <ehird> Aprophetic monotony nonexistent moo.
16:53:38 <Sgeo> "If you were using this for any decorative purpose (at least one package was, it turns out)"
16:54:05 <Sgeo> http://code.djangoproject.com/wiki/BackwardsIncompatibleChanges#Templatetagloadingrespectsdottednotation
16:54:14 <oerjan> FireFly: the nose was a cow-ard
16:54:15 <ehird> That's a formidable URL.
16:54:45 <ehird> really.pretty.name.module → module.py?
16:54:56 <ehird> that's retarded, but relying on it for decoration is even more so
17:06:14 <ehird> cvs can look like small-caps CVS.
17:06:22 <ehird> (works best in Helvetica)
17:08:20 <ehird> Someone said it on a slashdot comment thread and I wondered why it was smallcaps... but then it looked small...
17:08:28 <ehird> then my eyes refocused and whoa, that's actually just lowercase.
17:09:34 <Sgeo> Answering machine messages should not be 50 seconds long
17:09:51 <GregorR-L> They should be at least twenty-eight minutes long.
17:09:55 <GregorR-L> But with a warning at the beginning.
17:10:08 <GregorR-L> "If you really want to leave me a message, you're going to have to listen to this sex tape I made."
17:10:31 <ehird> Answering machines should actually start recording as soon as you dial, but play a shocking, stupid and long message beforehand.
17:10:55 <ehird> So all your messages go "... *drums fingers* ... *sigh* ... *gasp* ... beeeeeeep ... Uh, um ... Uh, hello, I was calling to see if"
17:11:41 <GregorR-L> If you're a person who rejects calls too often, you should put shocking secrets in your voicemail greeting to discourage yourself :P
17:12:24 <ehird> GregorR-L: How about a voicemail greeting that simulates more and more inappropriate conversation?
17:12:48 <ehird> "Hi ... How've you been? ... Oh, that's good ... (lots of time passes)"
17:12:53 <ehird> "I put on my robe and wizard hat."
17:19:03 <AnMaster> ehird, where is that quote from?
17:19:24 <ehird> Oh, do you mean "I put on my robe and wizard hat."?
17:19:37 <ehird> Ye olde internet meme.
17:19:39 <ehird> Here's a source: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/bloodninja
17:21:33 <GregorR-L> I never realized how often he killed his cyberpartner X-D
17:22:03 <ehird> http://people.ambrosiasw.com/~andrew/funny/bloodcyber.html appears to have many more.
17:22:05 <GregorR-L> (There are other examples out there, although probably any example of silly cybering gets the name replaced with "bloodninja" nowadays)
17:22:25 <ehird> (same linguistic mannerisms so probably the same guy)
17:22:33 <ehird> (i assume the albinoblacksheep one truncated it to the best)
17:24:32 <GregorR-L> MommyMelissa: What the f**k is this madlibs? I'm outta here. // lol
17:39:01 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
17:40:49 <ehird> nescience: I think that is the point.
17:41:18 <ehird> nescience: Past tense. Bloodninja was like early 2000.
17:41:53 <nescience> http://myndzi.seckzi.com/patty <- site i rescued from internet demise
17:42:27 <nescience> gotta let them come to you then reel em in, like fishing!
17:42:49 <nescience> there was also some personal homepage thing on an isp ural
17:42:56 <nescience> both are gone now i believe, and archive.org is spotty
17:43:00 <nescience> i managed to piece everything together
17:43:10 <nescience> might be missing a couple of the newest ones that were there
17:43:26 <GregorR-L> Ah, I was going to go check archive.org :P
17:44:25 <Sgeo> http://deardanno.tripod.com/ old site
17:44:39 <ehird> http://goatse.ca/ old site
17:44:49 <ehird> hmm it's squatted now
17:45:00 <ehird> "I've been away for awhile, but Danno will be back with all new columns in May of 2001!"
17:46:08 <Sgeo> Someone wrote in the guestbook in 2007
17:49:20 -!- graue has joined.
17:49:45 <ehird> Wow, it's a graue.
17:49:58 <graue> hi, anyone know if there are still people archiving backups of the esolangs.org wiki?
17:50:02 <ehird> We're likely to be eataen.
17:50:04 <graue> i messed it up and the latest backup doesn't work
17:50:15 <ehird> he's the type to do that
17:50:33 <ehird> graue: when's the previous backup?
17:50:47 <ehird> does that one work? :-P
17:51:04 <graue> well that's what i mean, it doesn't work
17:51:09 <graue> my server only keeps one backup
17:51:10 <ehird> thus "previous backup"
17:51:28 <GregorR-L> Hahaha, better hope ais saves the day :P
17:51:33 <GregorR-L> I've considered keeping backups, but then I didn't.
17:51:53 <Sgeo> In what way does the backup not work?
17:51:59 <GregorR-L> (Mainly because I could never figure out where to download them...)
17:52:05 <ehird> GregorR-L: The cynic inside me says that a backup from years ago would be no less valuable than the current one. ;-)
17:52:08 <graue> it uh, is still lacking the mw_objectcache table, which was crashed
17:52:10 <ehird> A lot of rubbish langs out there.
17:52:17 <ehird> sounds like you could rebuild it
17:52:32 <graue> in the past, i've fixed the mw_objectcache problem by truncating the table, and then it would work and rebuild the cache i guess
17:52:41 <graue> but this time i dropped it instead of truncating it
17:52:46 <graue> i don't know what the structure is supposed to be
17:52:55 <Sgeo> Ask in a MediaWiki channel?
17:52:57 <ehird> graue: grep -r 'objectcache' wiki/
17:52:59 <GregorR-L> `google "create table mw_objectcache"
17:53:00 <HackEgo> ... 数据`mw_math` -- -- -------------------------------------------------------- -- -- 表的结构`mw_objectcache` -- CREATE TABLE `mw_objectcache` ( `keyname` ... \ www.waibao51.com/ty.sql - [18]Cached - [19]Similar
17:53:16 <ehird> wow, that's a full db dumb of some iwki
17:53:25 <GregorR-L> So, the table structure will probably be right.
17:53:39 <ehird> generated 2009 so probably recent
17:54:11 <ehird> graue: could you disable the spam-checker thing that stops loads? we couldn't even delete some spam because it was detecting our referer or something
17:54:17 <ehird> ais523 had to disable referers to get to the delete page
17:54:23 <ehird> and it was impossible to save any edits
17:54:27 <ehird> has it actually got rid of any spam?
17:54:58 <graue> i'm sure it seemed like a good idea at the time
17:55:21 <graue> yaaay the wiki is fixed, you guys are smart
17:55:40 <Sgeo> #esoteric : Heros of the 2009 Esolang Wiki Crash
17:55:51 <ehird> (At this point, GregorR-L, having self-lobotomised, becomes stupid.)
17:56:03 <ehird> GregorR-L: Tragedy of the 2009 Esolang Wiki Crash
17:56:05 <graue> so what is the "spam-checker thing that stops loads"?
17:56:17 <ehird> graue: like, you can't put <div> in a page or something
17:56:22 <ehird> also it checks referers and blocks pages I think?
17:56:25 <ehird> maybe mod_security, it does things like that
17:56:43 <graue> the referer checking is a mod_security thing done by my web host, i remember fighting with it way back. i'm not sure if i can override it or not
17:56:46 <ehird> but it just has a ton of false positives in my experience
17:56:52 <ehird> graue: ahh. perhaps in .htaccess
17:56:57 <graue> i did the blocking of <divs thing tho
17:56:59 <ehird> http://www.liewcf.com/blog/archives/2008/05/how-to-disable-mod_security-in-htaccess-file/
17:57:04 <graue> which as i recall, did indeed stop a lot of spam
17:57:11 <ehird> graue: the <div bit isn't too much of a trouble
17:57:15 <ehird> you can just do <span style="display:block
17:57:43 <Sgeo> The Python example on http://www.freewear.org/ is incorrect. There's an extraneous newline in that string
17:57:53 <ehird> that's... nice, Sgeo?
17:58:04 <ehird> i don't even see a python sample.
17:58:23 <Sgeo> "#I don't like Spam!
17:58:37 <ehird> that's not on the page.
17:59:04 <ehird> graue: oops, I didn't highlight you when I said http://www.liewcf.com/blog/archives/2008/05/how-to-disable-mod_security-in-htaccess-file/
17:59:09 <graue> in the .htaccess, dated november 2006...
17:59:12 <ehird> — which I didn't click before pasting, maybe I should
17:59:22 <graue> "cvs " and "echo " are explicitly allowed (they were blocked i guess) in post payload
17:59:35 <graue> and "<span" and "<div" in post payload are blocked
17:59:52 <ehird> clearly not "viagra", though, which stops us fixing pages with viagra in the title :-P
17:59:55 <graue> i guess people want to use <span> for legit formatting or something but like, a lot of spam was doing that, so
17:59:58 <ehird> well, we could just disable referers again
18:00:07 <graue> show me a page with viagra in the title
18:00:11 <ehird> graue: eh, <b style="font-weight: normal; display: block">
18:00:19 <ehird> graue: sure thing —
18:00:31 <ehird> graue: user called User:Viagra_free_something.com or the like
18:00:37 <ehird> was there for days before we figured out it was referers
18:01:55 <GregorR-L> So, incidentally, how does one download backups of the wiki? :P
18:02:22 <ehird> Also anthropomorphization.
18:02:28 <ehird> You have to make the server into a person then steal its thoughts.
18:02:39 <ehird> GregorR-L: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Wiki_preservation
18:02:42 <ehird> from the front page, yo
18:03:18 <ehird> graue: BTW, http://esolangs.org/wiki/ redirects to the voxelperfect url but other esolangs.org wiki addresses don't
18:03:21 <graue> oops, it lists a link hosted on my computer which has not existed for years
18:03:28 <graue> yeah that's just a quirk of apache
18:03:29 <ehird> latest.sql.bz221-Jul-2009 15:25
18:03:29 <ehird> http://calamari.reverse-dns.net:980/esowiki/
18:03:38 <ehird> ↑ Hooray if it hadn't worked?
18:03:45 <ehird> or was that backup a dud too
18:04:09 <graue> looks like he too is only keeping one
18:04:33 <ehird> http://calamari.reverse-dns.net:980/esowiki/mirror.png
18:04:36 <ehird> great artistic talent there
18:05:16 <ehird> i like how mirrorness is represented by blurriness and redness
18:05:21 <ehird> we all know that's what mirrors do to their images
18:05:23 <GregorR-L> When life gives you lemons ... make oranges?
18:05:33 <graue> limes, you mean. when life gives you limes
18:05:35 <ehird> Strangest oranges I've ever seen. Also, they're LIME.
18:05:43 * ehird hi5 graue *pedant buddies*
18:05:45 <GregorR-L> When life gives you limes ... make grapefruit?
18:06:10 <ehird> When life gives you limes, sell them for a profit.
18:08:20 <graue> well, time to crawl back into my hole
18:08:35 <graue> be in touch if anything else gets messed up, or just to say hi
18:08:36 <ehird> Alas, poor graue. I knew him … not so well.
18:08:40 -!- graue has quit ("Leaving").
18:08:49 <ehird> I wonder if he knows he hasn't actually given us a way to be in touch.
18:08:57 <ehird> (Well, we could check his website, I guess. :P)
18:11:11 <GregorR-L> OK, I'm now backing up nightly into an hg repo.
18:11:32 <GregorR-L> So if such a situation arises again, I will not only have the latest, but a non-screwed up history :P
18:11:33 <ehird> You are a true pygmy.
18:13:16 <ehird> 1.8K // this file has .2 of a byte.
18:15:30 <ehird> Fun fact: This channel's logs total 68MB.
18:16:39 <ehird> I present to you a bar chart of this channel's activity over time: ▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▂▁▂▁▂▁▁▁▁▁▁▂▂▂▁▃▂▂▁▂▄▂▂▂▃▃▄▃▄▅▅▆▄▄▄▆█▆
18:16:59 <ehird> The twitter version:
18:17:00 <ehird> ▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▂▂▂▁▁▂▁▁▁▂▁▁▃▁▁▁▁▁▂▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▂▁▁▂▂▂▃▁▁▁▂▁▁▁▂▃▂▁▂▂▂▃▂▁▁▂▂▃▃▅▃▃▂▂▂▂▂▂▂▂▂▄▃▃▃▂▅▄▄▄▂▂▄▅▄▅▅▅▅▄▅▆▆▄▄▃▃▅▅▃▄▅▆▆▇█▆
18:17:16 <ehird> I did that earlier this year, but I had the logs locally.
18:17:21 <ehird> % w3m -dump http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | awk '{print $6}' | tail -n +22 | perl -ne 's/K/* 1024/; print int(eval($_) + .5), "\n"' | squish 140 | sparkline
18:17:46 <ehird> My ASCII homage to Tufte.
18:18:03 <ehird> "squish" just "Compresses M values into N values."
18:18:09 <ehird> GregorR-L: Sure. You can have both, because I'm so kind.
18:18:13 <fizzie> It's not quite "ASCII" though.
18:18:19 <ehird> fizzie: Shushest, thou.
18:18:36 <ehird> It has the last line; "80
18:18:49 * ehird head -n -1 (I think)
18:19:17 <ehird> ▁▁▁▁▁▁▂▂▂▁▁▂▂▂▂▃▃▂▄▄▆▆▅▇█
18:19:18 <ehird> That's more like it.
18:19:23 <ehird> ▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▂▂▂▁▁▂▁▁▁▂▁▁▃▁▁▁▁▁▂▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▂▁▁▂▂▂▃▁▁▁▂▁▁▁▂▃▂▁▂▂▂▃▂▁▁▂▂▃▃▅▃▃▂▂▂▂▂▂▂▂▂▄▃▃▃▂▅▄▄▄▂▂▄▅▄▅▅▅▅▄▅▆▆▄▄▃▃▅▅▃▄▅▆▆▇█▆
18:19:25 <ehird> Still a little dip.
18:19:55 <GregorR-L> Forsooth, hereth I place mine words!
18:19:59 <ehird> GregorR-L: Two programs IN ONE PASTE: http://pastie.org/private/yq6r572x0ba5yykdprhq
18:20:19 <ehird> Note that the algorithm (if it can be called that) and chars for sparkline come from somebody's Ubiquity command somewhere.
18:20:24 <ehird> But mine's more unix.
18:20:30 <Sgeo> "Python 3000 is written in Ruby" --Guido* *May not be an exact quote
18:20:30 <ehird> And it does both arguments and stdin!
18:20:33 <ehird> Squish is the same!
18:20:52 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yU9FjrR2Ig
18:20:53 <GregorR-L> The exact quote is "Python 3000 is written in Python" :P
18:21:07 <ehird> Sgeo: I'm not watching that
18:21:48 <ehird> Sgeo: that "joke" isn't even given context
18:22:05 -!- coppro has joined.
18:22:45 <ehird> http://picoup.com/-sized chart:
18:22:47 <ehird> ▁▁▁▁▁▂▁▁▂▂▂▃▂▄▅▆▅▇
18:23:10 <ehird> your message is too long. remember, only 18 characters and 1 user reference.
18:23:17 <ehird> it's counting 8-bit i think
18:23:20 <pikhq> That's pretty awesome.
18:24:00 <ehird> oh, I list the ubiquity script in the source
18:24:01 <ehird> "Based on http://gist.github.com/46562"
18:24:19 <ehird> it's rather more verbose
18:25:57 <ehird> I wonder why Smalltalk has dots
18:26:00 <ehird> I think you can use newlines instead
18:26:05 <ehird> but I guess that was too fuzzy for them
18:27:01 <GregorR-L> Because it's supposed to be vaguely like English, and that's how you end a sentence;
18:27:56 <ehird> (I'm playing around with ideas for an Objective-C based Smalltalk because F-Script is kind of lame)
18:28:30 <pikhq> Well, Objective-C is probably the sanest implementation language.
18:28:45 <ehird> pikhq: the point is using the environment
18:28:46 <pikhq> So little work involved in getting the object model working.
18:28:47 <ehird> same object model etc
18:29:12 <ehird> Basic thought process: Objective-C's cool, but most of the time you don't need the C parts, so why not just expand the brackets to cover the entire program?
18:29:17 <pikhq> ehird: Yeah; my point is that Objective-C's objects are a lot like Smalltalk's, so you don't need to fight the system.
18:29:36 <ehird> F-Script already exists but, as I said, is sorta lame.
18:29:42 <ehird> I don't know why, it just doesn't sit well with me.
18:29:48 <ehird> Maybe I'm being unfair on it.
18:29:54 <pikhq> And to think, I'm just thinking of some nice Tcl code generation for C.
18:30:01 <ehird> I don't think anyone actually writes apps in F-Script, though.
18:30:30 <ehird> one of the nicest parts of objective-c is its way of doing addon methods
18:30:39 <pikhq> http://pastebin.ca/1503345
18:30:41 <ehird> iirc it's like [obj myAddonMethod] is basically myAddonMethod_objsClass(obj)
18:30:48 <ehird> i'm not sure if you can access instance vars
18:30:57 <ehird> but it lets you just give a nicer name to helper stuff
18:31:14 <ehird> pikhq: Drop the exclamation marks. Seriously.
18:31:47 <ehird> pikhq: Also, you realise almost all of that can be done as regular functions, right?
18:32:30 <ehird> -signal "destroy" {gtk_main_quit();}!;
18:32:33 <ehird> g_signal_connect (window, "destroy",
18:32:33 <ehird> G_CALLBACK (gtk_main_quit), NULL);
18:32:40 <ehird> hope you got an optimizer for that, cuz that's not gonna scale as-is
18:32:47 <ehird> (to non-function-calls)
18:32:51 <ehird> pikhq: that won't even work
18:32:55 <ehird> it'll do gtk_main_quit(NULL);
18:34:16 <pikhq> ... Use [...]. But I don't want to have to actually parse C for this!
18:34:18 <coppro> I wonder if it's possible to make a language where indentation-based block control can be optional
18:34:43 <ehird> pikhq: you already have to
18:35:16 <pikhq> ehird: No, no. I just have to watch for \!.
18:35:36 <coppro> I can't remember exactly why, but I recall haskell not being exactly what I wanted
18:35:36 <pikhq> You are a boilerplate lover.
18:36:09 <ehird> pikhq: no, I just think most of it can be done by functions and macros and your syntax sucks
18:36:38 <pikhq> Just Tcl scripts that evaluate to a string that gets inserted in. Wheee.
18:36:51 <ehird> ok just ignore me then
18:36:58 <pikhq> Hmm. Actually, [...] might be a better syntax.
18:37:38 <pikhq> Especially since in Tcl, [...] evaluates ... and inserts the resulting string in.
18:38:16 <pikhq> Just need to do something to prevent it from evaluating array notation.
18:38:23 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:38:36 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
18:39:57 <pikhq> Also, that should totally be -signal "destroy" gtk_main_quit.
18:40:12 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving").
18:41:59 <ehird> Who wants to use C, anyway?
18:44:58 <ehird> lol@someone on reddit claiming that stopping breathing is death even if you're resuscitated
18:45:05 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/93e4e/help_my_cat_is_sick_and_i_dont_know_what_to_do_im/c0bae9h
18:45:34 <pikhq> ... I know of no reasonable person who states that you die upon ceasing to breath.
18:54:41 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
18:58:09 <ehird> pikhq: [[He had no heart beat or respiration for about a minute. He was, as the doctors say, dead. They resuscitated him with a defibrillator and he lived...]]
18:58:13 <ehird> Does anyone want to tell him what death is?
18:58:19 <ehird> I don't think he quite understands the concept.
19:02:37 <GregorR-L> That being said, if he's revivable, that's a pretty sucky doctor who says "yeah, this guy's dead lol"
19:02:56 <ehird> GregorR-L: Guy = cat :-P
19:04:25 <ehird> s/unicorn/strong, friendly AI/
19:04:35 <ehird> The unicorn is upgrading its brain.
19:04:36 <ehird> The vet is helping.
19:18:52 <ehird> "Rick Rocket has just saved the universe! Unfortunately, the massive destruction he left in his wake has caused a temporal anomaly that has reversed the flow of time. The player must assume control of Rick’s spacecraft and fight through the epic space battle... in reverse! Retro/Grade is an innovative game that fuses the white knuckle thrills and over the top visuals of a shooter with the broad appeal of a rhythm game. Players are forced to dodge enemy
19:18:54 <ehird> projectiles while positioning the ship to be in the correct place to fire their lasers when their shots come back to them. For more information, check out our FAQ."
19:18:57 <ehird> http://www.retrogradegame.com/
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19:21:12 * Sgeo wants to see a quine in COBOL
19:21:33 <Deewiant> http://www.tmdg.co.uk/programing/quine.cbl.php
19:21:53 <Deewiant> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?QuineProgramInCobol then
19:22:30 <ehird> Deewiant: from that guy's site:
19:22:31 <ehird> "My pet hate is the constant argument in alt.cobol about whether C or COBOL is the best language. I am open minded about this. I have written a few polygot programs that will compile both via the GNU C compiler and Micro Focus COBOL compilers."
19:22:34 <ehird> A man of compromise!
19:23:06 <ehird> http://www.tmdg.co.uk/programing/quine.shell.php
19:23:12 <ehird> That's a verbose way to write "cat $0"
19:23:48 <pikhq> Of course, I've got a much nicer quine.
19:23:50 <Deewiant> Also not Bourne shell compatible
19:24:11 <Deewiant> Hmm, that looks horribly unbalanced
19:24:27 <ehird> Now the whole WORLD is a syntax erro
19:24:39 <ehird> Deewiant: you can't change my lines!
19:24:43 <ehird> You just made yours unbalanced again
19:24:46 <ehird> thus making mine balance it out
19:25:05 <Deewiant> It doesn't matter which line got modified either time
19:25:05 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
19:25:24 <GregorR-L_> Darn, if graue was still here we'd have a fistful o' Gr's.
19:25:48 <ehird> But unfortunately not dollars.
19:26:07 <GregorR-L_> And super-unfortunately not pounds or euros.
19:26:28 <ehird> But fortunately not ZW$s.
19:26:33 <ehird> (Prounounced "Zimbabwe bucks")
19:33:06 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:36:00 -!- GregorR-L_ has changed nick to GregorR-L.
19:36:09 <ehird> pikhq: GregorR-L: [[No, the VET who freakin TOLD me the CAT had DIED, did not attempt to issue a death certificate or officially call the time of death, but, then...he's a CAT and the LEGAL definition of death as it relates to humans DOES NOT REALLY MATTER in the casual conversational sense that I used it in...I'll use quotes next time and give you the vets number so you can argue medical semantics with HIM.]]
19:36:36 <ehird> Translation: "And if he says my kitty has DIED when he doesn't BREATHE for a few seconds after a BAD COUGH, then THAT'S OKAY BECAUSE IT'S CASUAL CONVERSATION FUCK YOU AND ALL YOU STAND FORRRRRRRRRR"
19:48:53 <Sgeo> Who spells webmaster as "webmastr"?
19:49:29 <Sgeo> It's spelled that way in both the image containing the email address and the mailto link
19:49:38 <ehird> The person is an idiot.
19:50:09 <Sgeo> Which, come to think of it, is a bit strange, using an image when spammers can get the address from the mailto link anyway
19:50:21 <Sgeo> Oh, btw, this is on the website for a college
19:50:46 <ehird> Deewiant: No, seriously, no.
19:50:48 <Deewiant> May be a limitation/arbitrary choice
19:50:53 <ehird> No, they're not using 8.3 files to store usernames.
19:51:18 <Deewiant> It can be DECLARE @username AS VARCHAR(8)
19:51:34 <ehird> Nobody's that idiotic … apart from the guy who'd spell it "webmastr".
19:51:40 <Deewiant> That isn't strictly speaking that stupid
19:51:41 <Sgeo> Well, there's another email address that is more then 8 characters
19:51:47 <Deewiant> If they're all internal usernames
19:51:54 <Deewiant> You won't need more than 8 chars
19:52:17 <Sgeo> What's the point of the image?
19:52:37 <Sgeo> I mean, besides being nicely inaccessible
19:52:54 <ehird> eh, they might pronounce the URL :-P
19:53:33 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
19:53:37 <Sgeo> The image also contains the address of the college, and the phone number
19:53:44 <Sgeo> So much for blind students
19:54:01 <ehird> are you going to this college?
19:54:35 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
19:55:10 * Sgeo likes being the best student in computer programming/information systems >.>
19:55:27 <Sgeo> I am planning on transfering out at some point
19:55:34 <ehird> Sgeo: But that implies a high probability of being better than your processor :-P
19:56:23 <GregorR-L> Also, they could be using AT&T Unix SysV R4 on their email servers.
20:09:25 <Sgeo> Well, I finally got the email from the college that I was supposed to receive, and was incessintly trying to call them about
20:20:03 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
20:21:53 <GregorR-L> Eh, it's a little bit better than no CAPCHA maybe?
20:22:48 <ehird> the best captcha is <div style="display: none"><input name="email"> (Spam trap; leave blank)</div>
20:22:51 <ehird> and check it's empty
20:23:05 <Sgeo> ehird, unless that starts catching on
20:23:24 <ehird> Sgeo: it's been researched; spambots only look at foo@bar.com email addresses
20:23:28 <ehird> because that's enough
20:23:39 <ehird> no, i doubt that's likely
20:23:48 <ehird> Sgeo: and some forms require email
20:23:56 <ehird> they'll just go back to the ol' "get people to fill it in manually"
20:24:00 <ehird> which is more or less impossible to stop
20:24:06 <ehird> so... this is the best way
20:24:34 <Sgeo> I'd imagine that faxzero in particular might be targetted
20:24:51 <Sgeo> So it can't just rely on a captcha that only works because no one's targetting it
20:25:02 <ehird> that's what all captchas rely on
20:25:12 <ehird> think there's an existing captcha
20:25:18 <ehird> (a) doable by humans
20:25:23 <ehird> (b) has been given effort and yet
20:25:26 <ehird> (c) has not been broken
20:26:39 <Sgeo> So recaptcha hasn't been given enough effort yet? Seems like it would be the best thing for spammers to target, imo
20:27:02 <ehird> (a) people may be working on it (b) you don't know if it's been broken
20:27:33 <ehird> Sgeo: nowadays they pay indian guys to fill out captchas all day long
20:27:37 <ehird> nothing can stop that
20:29:02 <Sgeo> Bye for now all
20:31:41 <GregorR-L> `google pay indian guys to fill out capchas all day long
20:31:42 <HackEgo> There are a lot that I can't make out at all. The other day I tried an ..... Once you've got a few characters you can then reference a dictionary to fill in the ones you can't recognise. ..... The bottom line is, as long as people are willing to pay, ..... So that is where the cheap hired Indian labor comes in. ...
20:32:20 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving").
20:34:58 <GregorR-L> http://bothole.appspot.com/ is interesting
20:35:11 <ehird> 20:31 GregorR-L: `google pay indian guys to fill out capchas all day long
20:35:11 <ehird> 20:31 HackEgo: There are a lot that I can't make out at all. The other day I tried an ..... Once you've got a few characters you can then reference a dictionary to fill in the ones you can't recognise. ..... The bottom line is, as long as people are willing to pay, ..... So that is where the cheap hired Indian labor comes in. ...
20:35:15 <ehird> That doesn't look like, uh
20:35:48 <GregorR-L> The result text was too long so the URL didn't show :(
20:36:30 <GregorR-L> I just had two failed attempts in getting one, wtf.
20:38:06 <GregorR-L> http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41%2B3Uu8q-HL._AA280_.jpg <-- it just gave me this image. One word: "wtf?"
20:38:45 <ehird> GregorR-L: did you put in "wtf"
20:38:54 <GregorR-L> Yes. It did not accept that response :P
20:38:56 <ehird> http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/315nB%2B1gFsL._SL500_AA280_.jpg ← um…
20:39:08 <ehird> "pogo stick" put me on to a new one
20:39:11 <ehird> so i guess that's godo or something
20:39:29 <ehird> http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5157B9GSPWL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg ← apparently this isn't "poverty"
20:39:47 <ehird> http://images.cafepress.com/product/183032245_240x240_Front.jpg ← not a proud marine mom
20:40:03 <ehird> http://images.cafepress.com/product/33891001_240x240_Front.jpg ← methinks it repeats too much
20:41:36 <GregorR-L> Also, "bothole" just sounds so wrong :P
20:41:49 <augur> whats the S combinator again??
20:42:26 <ehird> GregorR-L: http://images.cafepress.com/product/90311100_240x240_Front.jpg ← tshirt... briefs... thing... evil mutant chimera item of clothing
20:42:29 <augur> that operator plays a hugely important part in natural language syntax
20:42:40 <ehird> >_< It didn't accept "sock" for a sock
20:43:08 <augur> there are constructions like "file without reading", as in "the article which I filed without reading"
20:43:22 <augur> and in order to explain that construction, you need something equivalent to S
20:44:01 <ehird> augur: s/file/filed/ yes
20:44:15 <augur> the tense in these cases is irrelevant
20:44:21 <augur> the important part is the syntactic types
20:44:58 <augur> file : NP -> VP; reading : NP -> VP; without : VP -> VP -> VP
20:45:11 <ehird> augur: those types seem ... simplistic
20:45:17 <ehird> but what do NP and VP stand for
20:45:24 <augur> noun phrase, verb phrase
20:45:42 <augur> without reading : NP -> VP -> VP, by function composition: reading.without
20:46:05 <augur> er.. without.reading
20:46:18 <pikhq> augur: S is also liftM2 id. ... For all the monads, not just functions. >:D
20:46:20 <augur> and then to get file to join with without.reading
20:46:32 <ehird> augur: reading returns a verb?
20:46:43 <augur> well, reading returns a verb phrase
20:46:50 <augur> reading itself is a verb
20:46:59 <augur> and then to get file-without-reading
20:47:19 <augur> you need to S together file, and reading
20:47:26 <augur> file, and without.reading
20:47:44 <augur> S(file)(without.reading) : NP -> VP
20:47:49 <ehird> augur: so linguistics is point free then :P
20:48:33 <augur> file-without-reading is NP->VP, and we can combine that with a bunch of other stuff to get which-i-will-file-without-reading : N\N
20:48:44 <ehird> is there like a branch of linguistics handling how to parse horribly broken language :P
20:48:49 <augur> and then apply that to "articles" to get N
20:49:20 <GregorR-L> Spam subject line: "Pump in your lady stronger obstructionist retailer"
20:49:50 <GregorR-L> But nobody listens to my suggestions :(
20:49:59 <GregorR-L> I haven't drawn one in a while ... this one is too wtf for me to draw anyway.
20:50:02 <ehird> GregorR-L: Note that the last Spamusement comic is from June 2007.
20:50:08 <ehird> And the one before that October 2006.
20:50:17 <GregorR-L> ehird: Go to the forums and be enlightened.
20:50:38 <augur> ehird: you might want to read this book on CCG
20:50:42 <ehird> like by other people or whatever
20:50:46 <GregorR-L> Not by the original author, no, but there are a lot of ultra-hilarious others.
20:50:52 <augur> well, more Birds for language
20:51:09 <ehird> Fun fact: I knew of Spamusement and Steven Frank-as-mac-developer independently but did not correlate.
20:51:12 <ehird> NEXT TIME ON FUN FACTS:
20:51:18 <ehird> DUN DUN DUN JINGLE
20:51:27 <augur> kookoo kachoo kakookoo ka choooooo
20:51:44 <pikhq> augur: Goo goo g'joob.
20:54:28 <augur> afk making pizza dough :o
20:54:46 <ehird> Making pizza; D'oh.
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21:37:07 <augur> i have a hypothesis
21:37:54 <pikhq> I have an implementation of hq9+ in Haskell, because I was really freaking bored.
21:38:04 <augur> the fundamental laws of the universe are the way they are because they are possible within a system that has no notion of "simultaneous"
21:39:13 <augur> the only time-related notions that we /know/ the universe has is causal connections
21:39:32 <augur> if one event caused another event, then the causing event preceded the caused event
21:39:45 <augur> but if two events are mutually causally exclusive, they have no time ordering
21:39:55 <augur> neither happened before or after or at the same time as the other
21:40:21 <augur> so my conjecture is that the universe is built around trying to work within this system
21:41:03 <ehird> causality is suspect :)
21:41:06 <GregorR> I have no idea if that conjecture has any useful conclusions.
21:41:17 <augur> GregorR: the conclusion im drawing from it is
21:41:21 <GregorR> If that hurt, causality is not suspect.
21:41:49 <augur> The universe is designed to run multithreaded in a completely safe fashion.
21:41:50 <ehird> <GregorR, folk physicist> HURR SUBJECTIVE EXPERIENCE AND INTUITIVE NOTIONS APPLY TO THE FUNDAMENTAL LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE
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21:56:49 <ais523> wow, thedailywtf.com just linked to esolang
21:57:09 <ais523> http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Programming-Praxis-Russian-Peasant-Multiplication.aspx
21:57:20 <pikhq> augur: Clearly. After all, data only propogates one lightsecond per lightsecond; that makes for some highly data-parallel computing.
21:57:41 <augur> one lightsecond per second, you mean? :P
21:57:58 <ehird> ais523: that's fucking stupid
21:57:58 <ehird> "There is no language restriction, though anything on the esoteric language list will probably be ignored."
21:58:04 <ehird> "DO THIS STUPID TASK FOR NO REASON"
21:58:07 <augur> information propogates very fast, yes.
21:58:09 <ehird> "BUT MAKE SURE IT'S NOT A QUEEEEEEEEEEESTION"
21:58:12 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood_: Point.
21:58:21 <ehird> s/QUE+STION/CHAAAAAAAALLENGE/
21:58:37 <pikhq> augur: No, light is pretty damned slow.
21:58:37 <augur> bsmntbombdood_: in general parlance, "light" is shorthand for multiple-of-c
21:58:52 <ehird> i always hear "3 lightspeed"
21:59:00 <augur> ehird, yes, but you also hear light.
21:59:07 <ehird> no, you hear sound
21:59:07 <GregorR> Light is neither fast nor slow, it is the reference speed :P
21:59:07 <augur> as in, we're travelling at five kilolight
21:59:14 <ehird> GregorR: it's the fastest speed
21:59:37 <GregorR> ehird: Nothing in relativity prevents tachyons from existing, it just prevents them from having any effect on us whatsoever.
21:59:41 <pikhq> Data travels at 1L/T.
21:59:48 <augur> if its the fastest speed, surely C must then be the time-between-computations on the parallel computer that runs the universe!
21:59:51 <pikhq> (Planck units FTW)
21:59:56 <ehird> GregorR: All backwards tachyons can be "reimagined" as forwards ones, no?
22:00:03 <augur> GregorR: actually tachyons DO exist
22:00:08 <ehird> So it's only going at the speed of light for some sort of definition of that.
22:00:09 <augur> if they existed, they would move backwards in time
22:00:16 <ehird> augur: uh, there's no proof they exist or don't.
22:00:24 <GregorR> augur is a tachyonic being.
22:00:29 <augur> but if they moved backwards in time, then they would move backwards from OUR perspective
22:00:35 <augur> as they moved forwards in their perspective
22:00:53 <augur> and they would have time-reversed properties like charge
22:01:04 <augur> antimatter is just matter moving at super-light speeds
22:01:22 <ehird> augur: your theories are, how shall we put this
22:01:24 <ehird> unsupported by evidence
22:01:39 <augur> actually, ehird, im merely making random connections between antimatter and tachyons
22:01:43 <GregorR> I don't think I've ever laughed more at the phrase "unsupported by evidence" :P
22:01:49 <augur> its common in physics to view antimatter as normal matter moving backwards in time
22:01:59 <pikhq> ais523: That "challenge" is really stupid.
22:02:15 <pikhq> The C++ *template* implementation is a one-liner.
22:02:16 <augur> im sure if slereah were here he'd back me up on this
22:02:20 <ais523> but it may drive a bit more challenge to esolang
22:02:34 <ehird> augur: plz provide a sourcey source.
22:02:43 <GregorR> I have never heard of antimatter being viewed as time-reversed matter, especially since that makes no sense w.r.t. causality, entropy, ...
22:02:55 <augur> gregorr: but it does! :o
22:03:10 <pikhq> template<int b,int c>struct r{static const int s=b?r<b/2,c*2>::s+b%2*c:0;};
22:03:18 <augur> yeah. its feynman diagram things.
22:04:20 <Pthing> which is like all i know and i don't know to what degree it's rigorous
22:04:21 <augur> from wiki: "Each line of a diagram represents a particle propagating either backward or forward in time. This technique is the most widespread method of computing amplitudes in quantum field theory today."
22:04:28 <Pthing> because the point of feynman diagrams is they're not rigorous
22:04:37 <Pthing> they're a tool for doing the rigorous QED which is hard
22:04:48 <augur> pthing: they're conventionalized ways of computing perturbations for QED
22:05:19 <augur> ok so according to wiki
22:05:39 <augur> an antiparticle can be gotten from a positive particle from "applying the charge conjugation (C), parity (P), and time reversal (T) operators"
22:05:41 <GregorR> At the quantum level, lots of things can be viewed meaningfully in a time-reversed frame. And yet, antimatter eggs no more unscramble themselves than matter eggs.
22:06:13 <augur> gregorr: real eggs unscramble themselves all the time!
22:06:42 <augur> the thing about entropy is that its a statistical law, atleast at the scales we normally talk about
22:06:43 <pikhq> I see augur films eggs being scrambled and puts the film in a projector backwards.
22:07:07 * GregorR eats some delicious antimatter eggs.
22:07:16 * GregorR 's mouth is annihilated in a fierce explosion.
22:07:37 <augur> and saying that normal eggs dont unscramble themselves is not entirely correct, because its only incredibly statistically unlikely, not impossible.
22:07:53 * pikhq has a spontaneous existential failure, like everyone else on the hemisphere
22:08:21 <ehird> GregorR: you know, i'm fairly sure those antimatter eggs exploded as soon as they came across their good ol' friend "air"
22:08:42 <pikhq> ehird: He lives in a vacuum.
22:08:49 <augur> ehird: they might explode, but maybe not
22:09:06 <ehird> augur: shut up, you're not a physicist, you're a bullshittist :)
22:09:16 <augur> the surface area of the egg exposes only a small amount of the mass of the egg
22:09:55 <ehird> huh, canvas has been around since 2004
22:10:33 <augur> its possible that the surface annihilation would create enough radiation that the air around the egg gets blasted away in a minor explosion leaving a vacuum
22:10:33 <ais523> augur: who cares? there are enough molecules on the surface to cause a massive explosion as-is
22:10:42 <augur> before, ofcourse, collapsing back in and starting it again.
22:11:00 <augur> ais523: but is there? its hard to know how much will actually react
22:11:26 <augur> how much does a one-atom-thick eggshell of carbon weigh? a gram? probably not even remotely close.
22:11:41 <augur> essentially its graphene with the same area as the eggs surface
22:11:51 <augur> i doubt itd weigh much more than a few micrograms
22:12:09 <ehird> 22:11 augur: how much does a one-atom-thick eggshell of carbon weigh? a gram? probably not even remotely close.
22:12:19 <augur> the explosion might destroy a town, but probably not a hemisphere
22:12:25 <ehird> i mean are you serious
22:12:30 <ehird> like are you SERIOUS
22:12:36 <augur> do you have calculations for the mass of the graphene, ehird?
22:12:50 <augur> we can find out tho
22:13:09 <pikhq> ehird: The amount of explosion from contact with air is proportional to the surface mass of the egg. ;)
22:13:20 <pikhq> (surface mass. :D)
22:13:56 <augur> graphene is very light
22:13:59 <Pthing> somehow doesn't break the egg
22:14:04 <Pthing> doesn't vaporise the egg
22:14:10 <augur> pthing: it would compress it more likely
22:14:16 <augur> given that its radial, or roughly so
22:14:34 <augur> what you'd really want is to deposit matter into the CENTER of the egg
22:14:47 <augur> which would cause the egg to explode outwards into tiny pieces
22:15:00 <augur> which would create more massive secondary explosions due to increased surface area
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22:17:47 <pikhq> augur: The simplest way to do this involves acceleration of either the egg or the antimatter.
22:17:52 <pikhq> Oh, wait. Antiegg.
22:17:57 <pikhq> Acceleration of matter.
22:18:06 <pikhq> Like, say, a rock.
22:18:41 <augur> lets say a perfectly spherical Ideal Cow
22:19:13 <augur> ok so graphene layers are apparently 0.34nm thick. at lets say 2 g cm^-3 density, that makes it (2 g cm^-3)*(3.4e-8 cm^3) = 6.8e-8 g of antiegg
22:20:42 <augur> according to http://www.edwardmuller.com/right17.htm
22:20:51 <augur> that should be an explosion of
22:21:18 <augur> 2.92128 kilograms of dynamite
22:21:40 <augur> or maybe thats 2.92128 pounds of dynamit. either way!
22:22:59 <augur> infact, the site there says a whole pound of antimatter would only release 19.5 megatons of energy
22:23:18 <augur> meaning the egg wouldnt even destroy the whole STATE gregorr is in nevermind the whole hemisphere
22:23:50 <ehird> Not even the whole state!
22:24:05 <augur> or whatever gregor is in :p
22:24:14 <augur> i dont know where he is, im assuming hes in The Average American State
22:24:49 <augur> a perfectly circular fictional state with an area equal to precisely the average of all american states xp
22:25:57 <augur> see, this is what you get for talking fictional explosions with someone who routinely discussed the merits of the Star Trek vs Star Wars debate
22:26:22 <augur> or its broader incarnation, the X vs Y debate for some X, Y in scifi.
22:26:25 <ehird> dude, you think antimatter is going back in time.
22:26:40 <augur> well it is! its time reversed, charge-reverse normal matter
22:26:46 <augur> this is the standard quantum mechanical interpretation
22:27:00 <augur> theres no distinction between time reversed charge reversed positive matter, and antimatter
22:28:14 <augur> antimatter as time-reversed positive matter doesnt create paradoxes
22:28:22 <augur> so theres no reason not to think of it that way
22:29:57 <augur> after all, time itself is generally treated as just another dimension, presumably one which obeys certain laws of how the things that extend through it can relate to one another structurally, but other than that
22:34:21 <ehird> http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40534000/jpg/_40534689_toastie-afp203.jpg ← This was sold for $28,000.
22:34:25 <ehird> Guess why without googling.
22:34:26 <Pthing> not going to crush/vaporise an egg?
22:34:32 <Pthing> just, how did you put it
22:34:36 <augur> pthing: well itll definitely destroy it
22:34:42 <augur> itll mostly compress it
22:34:57 <augur> but mostly compress
22:35:04 <Pthing> definitely splatter everywhere
22:35:08 <ehird> It apparently has the Virgin Mary on it.
22:35:20 <augur> but remember, pthing, its happing radially, outside the egg
22:35:40 <Pthing> i still don't see how this stops fragments and blobs of antimatter reacting
22:36:00 <Pthing> there's enough activation energy there to make it go off like a cluster bomb
22:36:39 <augur> it doesnt, it just prevents it from happening RIGHT away by compressive the egg while the air around it is blown away in the initial explosion
22:36:54 <augur> when the egg rebounds from the compression, and the air rebounds in, itll go even bigger
22:36:54 <Pthing> so what, it goes back in a second
22:37:16 <augur> more like a millisecond
22:37:42 <augur> its just a point of fact!
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23:47:52 <GregorR> I want some Yu Wan Mei Miscellaneous Tasty Paste :(
23:49:17 <ehird> I want the Yu Wan Mei Device.
23:49:23 <ehird> It has been completed and is now available for sale .
23:51:57 <ehird> GregorR: http://pastebin.com/m1d114cb0
23:52:02 <ehird> The feature list of the Yu Wan Mei Device!
23:53:11 <ehird> GregorR: The guy who bought it (for $4,300) by mistake got a feature list
23:53:13 <ehird> So it's definitely real
23:53:13 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/92u42/the_onion_sells_out_to_china/c0b9qw7
23:53:22 <ehird> It requires a lot of batteries.
23:54:24 <ehird> I hope he doesn't cancel it, I want to see what they do :-)
23:54:51 <GregorR> "Red blinking lights, randomly accompanied by loud siren noise"
23:55:04 <ehird> It also has an antenna.
23:55:17 <ehird> Presumably, it listens and logs all information received from it in an inaccessible part of memory.
23:55:21 <ehird> And does not act on it.
23:55:31 <ehird> GregorR: The edges might be sharper than the Palm Pre.
23:55:38 <ehird> (http://gizmodo.com/5279413/palm-pre-cuts-the-cheese)
23:57:00 <ehird> http://www.yuwanmei.com/img/yuwanmei_broiled_shark_gums_large.jpg ← I wonder what gums taste like.
23:57:58 <GregorR> That is quite the assortment of batteries :P
23:58:19 <ehird> Can you get AAAA batteries?
23:58:45 <GregorR> Not to my knowledge. There are batteries that are half the size of a AAA, but they're not called AAAA (they're half the height, otherwise they're the same)