00:01:35 <ehird> I know I'm a piece of work, but the Hows effect?
00:01:37 <ehird> It's a useful model!
00:01:43 <Nowicjusz> sorry for my english it not very well
00:02:06 <ehird> Nowicjusz: ever heard of Brainfuck?
00:04:12 <FireFly> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck <-- Concludes it
00:04:35 <ehird> Nowicjusz: Czy rozumiesz to?
00:05:33 <ehird> Nowicjusz: Hey, I guess Google Translate jest przydatny dla czegoś. Jakkolwiek, ten kanał jest dziwny komputer języków programowania.
00:05:37 * FireFly is too lazy to google translate
00:05:48 <FireFly> Kanal, is that channel? ;o
00:06:11 <oerjan> `translateto pl Does this thing work?
00:06:28 <ehird> HackEgo: You have the Unicode support of a horse.
00:07:17 <oerjan> `translateto pl A man, a plan, a canal: Panama!
00:07:17 <ehird> Brawo. Teraz wystarczy, aby wszyscy rozmawiać za pomocą tłumacza.
00:07:18 <HackEgo> Czowiek, plan, kanau: Panama!
00:07:29 <ehird> translate Brawo. Teraz wystarczy, aby wszyscy rozmawiać za pomocą tłumacza.
00:07:31 <ehird> `translate Brawo. Teraz wystarczy, aby wszyscy rozmawiać za pomocą tłumacza.
00:07:32 <HackEgo> Bravo. Now, enough so that all rozmawia ... using this interpreter.
00:07:40 <ehird> "Bravo. Now, enough for everyone to talk with an interpreter. "
00:07:58 <ehird> GregorR: Będzie ładniejszy z podobnych, mniej Unicode tardness.
00:08:00 <GregorR> I wish I knew why the Unicode is borkleborked, but the server is honestly not sending me valid UTF-8.
00:08:20 <FireFly> I wouldn't have thought that the word for "channel" would be the same in polish and swedish
00:08:29 <ehird> GregorR: Google isn't necessarily in UTF-8.
00:08:39 <ehird> FireFly: Szwedzki jest rzeczywiście polski ... W ukrycia!
00:08:45 <GregorR> ehird: Super. But I have no idea what it IS in, nor how to convince to BE in UTF-8.
00:08:55 <ehird> GregorR: http://chardet.feedparser.org/
00:09:01 <FireFly> `translate Szwedzki jest rzeczywiście polski ... W ukrycia!
00:09:02 <HackEgo> Swedish is actually> of Polish ... In disguise!
00:09:03 -!- augur has joined.
00:09:22 <augur> ehird sorry for the delay
00:09:24 <augur> we had a power outage
00:09:26 <augur> [CP [C [T did] C] [TP [DP you_i] [T' <did> [vP <you> [v' [v [V mean] v] [VP <mean> [CP C [TP [DP <you>] [T to] [vP <you> [v' [v [V say] v] [VP <say> [CP [C that] [TP [DP [D the] [NP [N thing] [CP [C that] [TP [DP you] [T' [T pst] [vP <you> [v' [v [V say] v.pst] [VP <say> [DP <thing>]]]]]]]]] [T' [T [V be] [T pst]] [VP <be> [DP D [NP INDEF [CP [C what] [TP [DP you] [T' [T pst] [vP <you> [v' [v [V say] v.pst] [VP <say> [CP C
00:09:31 <augur> [TP [DP that] [T' [T [V be] [T pst]] [VP <be> [DP <INDEF>]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
00:09:44 <GregorR> ehird: Hmmm ... so now how do I fix it :P
00:09:53 <FireFly> That concludes esolangs, by the way ^
00:09:56 <ehird> GregorR: Well, what character encoding did it tell you?
00:10:01 <FireFly> Or, how esolangs could look
00:10:15 <ehird> Translators daje mi poczucie znajomości języka.
00:10:21 <augur> http://ironcreek.net/phpsyntaxtree/
00:10:28 <augur> use that to draw the tree, ehird.
00:10:52 <ehird> augur: I'm surprised it is even syntactically meaningful
00:10:58 <ehird> It ends with an... unconsumed argument.
00:11:08 <pikhq> oerjan: That's not Lisp. That's an English parse tree.
00:11:15 <augur> er, there should be a [T' between [DP <you>] and [T to]
00:11:19 <pikhq> It does look mighty sexp-esque, though.
00:11:27 <augur> and an extra ] at the end
00:11:33 <oerjan> pikhq: Whooshy whoosh whooshy
00:11:37 <augur> ehird: unconsumed argument?
00:11:45 <ehird> augur: Like, "The."
00:11:47 <ehird> You need something after.
00:11:50 <ehird> "I hit it because it"
00:12:04 -!- ehird has set topic: A odrobina inteligencji będzie założyć! Jeśli jesteś w samochodzie stanowiska kolei A. Proszę inaczej kolei do B. Jeśli C, AB 2 1. Dziękujemy za Twój stronie. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
00:13:02 <augur> the relative clauses are actually probably wrong. they should be attached to the DP nodes
00:13:11 <Nowicjusz> its late for me see you soon ehird
00:13:12 <GregorR> ehird: It just told me UTF-8 >_<
00:13:35 <ehird> GregorR: Did you try it on a page with actual unicode chars?
00:13:38 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:13:39 <ehird> As in, translating to, say, Polish.
00:13:44 <ehird> Otherwise it'll just see ASCII and say UTF-8.
00:13:55 <pikhq> ... Only 1/2 of Americans are aware that Neil Armstrong was the first man to walk on the moon.
00:13:57 <GregorR> `translateto ko Hello, world!
00:14:05 -!- Nowicjusz has left (?).
00:14:07 <ehird> GregorR: Don't copy from your IRC client, duh!
00:14:09 <pikhq> I FUCKING HATE THIS COUNTRY AND WOULD LIKE TO STAB PEOPLE WITHIN IT
00:14:13 <ehird> It'll encode to UTF-8 for its display.
00:14:45 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:14:59 <oerjan> pikhq: i take it you don't know about martin luther king, then
00:15:11 <ehird> He walked on the moon indeed...?
00:15:12 <Sgeo> Homophobe repellant: {1, 1, 1, 1, 1}
00:15:22 <ehird> Sgeo: Har har har.
00:15:22 <GregorR> {'confidence': 0.98999999999999999, 'encoding': 'EUC-KR'}
00:15:29 <pikhq> oerjan: I do, in fact, know about Martin Luther King Jr. I also know about Martin Luther.
00:15:30 <GregorR> OK, EUC-KR for Korean, no great surprise.
00:15:43 <ehird> GregorR: Oh lawdy, does it have varying encodings?
00:15:46 <oerjan> pikhq: you might have them confused.
00:16:04 <ehird> GregorR: Try French or something.
00:16:07 <pikhq> oerjan: What makes you think that?
00:16:22 <ehird> oerjan: {1,1,1,1,1} is homogeneous
00:16:24 <augur> ehird: [CP [C [T did] C] [TP [DP you_i] [T' <did> [vP <you> [v' [v [V mean] v] [VP <mean> [CP C [TP [DP <you>] [T' [T to] [vP <you> [v' [v [V say] v] [VP <say> [CP [C that] [TP [DP [DP [D the] [NP [N thing]]] [CP [C that] [TP [DP you] [T' [T pst] [vP <you> [v' [v [V say] v.pst] [VP <say> [DP <the thing>]]]]]]]] [T' [T [V be] [T pst]] [VP <be> [DP [DP INDEF] [CP [C what] [TP [DP you] [T' [T pst] [vP <you> [v' [v [V say] v.ps
00:16:26 <augur> t] [VP <say> [CP C [TP [DP that] [T' [T [V be] [T pst]] [VP [<be>] [<INDEF>]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
00:16:28 <oerjan> pikhq: your violent desires
00:16:29 <augur> there. that is more correct
00:16:47 <pikhq> oerjan: I do not tolerate fools well.
00:17:02 <oerjan> ehird: i find that a very weak connection
00:17:14 <pikhq> Nor am I Martin Luther King, Jr.
00:17:15 <ehird> oerjan: thus "har har har".
00:17:26 <pikhq> I am a man who dislikes stupidity, and goes over-the-top on IRC.
00:17:27 <GregorR> ehird: {'confidence': 0.75502604851710919, 'encoding': 'ISO-8859-2'}
00:17:37 <GregorR> So, I can get the encoding OKishly, but I need to fix it :(
00:17:38 <ehird> GregorR: Unsurprising.
00:17:44 <ehird> GregorR: shell out to python
00:17:57 <ehird> you can do it for any encoding
00:17:59 <ehird> GregorR: like this:
00:18:03 <Sgeo> oerjan, well, also, it's an array, so the types are homogenous
00:18:15 <augur> ehird, i can also turn that into a full GB x-bar tree
00:18:31 <ehird> import chardet; x = sys.stdin.read(); sys.stdout.write(x.decode(chardet.detect(x)['encoding']).encode('UTF-8'))
00:18:42 <GregorR> That's more or less what I was looking for.
00:19:17 <ehird> add "import sys; " to the start.
00:20:06 -!- oerjan has quit ("Homologically equivalent").
00:20:22 <ehird> GregorR: In fact, you should just filter all egobot things through it :P
00:20:29 <ehird> Death to non-UTF8!
00:22:31 <GregorR> Heh, forgot to install chardet on the host :P
00:22:41 <GregorR> Was wondering why it wasn't working.
00:23:40 <pikhq> Why in the world is Google serving non-UTF-8?
00:24:02 <ehird> pikhq: i guess cause google translate is mainly croudsourced?
00:24:05 <ehird> also bandwidth maybe
00:24:08 <Sgeo> "In rural areas, couples are allowed a second child if their first is a girl. "
00:24:19 <Sgeo> Way to worsen the balance, China
00:24:49 <GregorR> `translateto ko Hello, world!
00:25:04 <GregorR> Still doesn't translate back, and I'm not sure why :(
00:25:10 <pikhq> China is now dealing with, well, a demographics timebomb.
00:25:17 <HackEgo> ì • ë ... • í • ~ ì "¸ ìš", ì "¸ ê ³"!
00:26:41 <GregorR> Weirder still, the used URL, http://translate.google.com/translate_t?text=%ec%95%88%eb%85%95%ed%95%98%ec%84%b8%ec%9a%94%2c%20%ec%84%b8%ea%b3%84%21&sl=auto&tl=en , works fine?
00:27:08 <ehird> GregorR: because translate and translateto are separate
00:27:11 <ehird> because you reverted in a huff
00:27:16 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ translateto "en $1"
00:27:20 <augur> in full GB-style X-Bar form:
00:27:21 <augur> [CP [C' [C [T did] C] [TP [DP [D' [D you]]] [T' <did> [vP <you> [v' [v [V mean] v] [VP [V' <mean> [CP [C' C [TP <you> [T' [T to] [vP <you> [v' [v [V say] v] [VP [V' <say> [CP [C' [C that] [TP [DP [DP [D' [D the] [NP [N' [N thing]]]]] [CP [C' [C that] [TP [DP [D' [D you]]] [T' [T pst] [vP <you> [v' [v [V say] v.pst] [VP [V' [<say>] [<the-thing>]]]]]]]]]] [T' [T [V be] [T pst]] [VP [V' <be> [DP [DP [D' [D INDEF]]] [CP [C' [C
00:27:24 <augur> what] [TP [DP [D' [D you]]] [T' [T pst] [vP <you> [v' [v [V say] v.pst] [VP [V' <say> [CP [C' C [TP [DP [D' [D that]]] [T' [T [V be] [T pst]] [VP [V' [<be>] [<INDEF>]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
00:27:37 <ehird> augur: it has to be noted i'm not really fussed
00:27:58 <augur> i dont speak confused little boy :P
00:31:52 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:31:53 <AnMaster> "Lenovo recommends you burn a restore DVD"
00:32:00 <AnMaster> why didn't they just include one?
00:32:08 <AnMaster> instead of just a repair partition on the disk
00:32:21 <pikhq> Yes, because 2¢ is a lot of money.
00:32:36 <ehird> it is when you're a chinese computer company :)
00:32:46 <ehird> also they have to figure out how to do it and the like
00:33:13 <AnMaster> ehird, now they have to figure out how to create a dvd burning app
00:33:36 <ehird> GregorR: ha, i accidentally furthered the oppression of a nation!
00:33:50 <pikhq> GregorR: Taiwan lays claim to all of China, not just the Taiwan administrative region.
00:33:58 <GregorR> pikhq: No, they don't any more.
00:34:02 <ehird> GregorR: Dude, you might smash it.
00:34:03 <GregorR> pikhq: Not for a long time.
00:34:04 <Sgeo> I just gave you my OpenID, why do you want me to make a password for you
00:34:07 <ehird> Fuck plastic cups or something
00:35:22 <AnMaster> seems my drive is a DVD-RAM one
00:35:33 <ehird> AnMaster: DVD-...RAM?
00:35:39 <AnMaster> Lenovo told me not to use DVD RAM for the backup cds though
00:35:55 <pikhq> GregorR: Map of the Republic of China (AKA Taiwan, AKA Chinese Taipei, AKA ...) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ROC_Administrative_and_Claims.png
00:35:59 <ehird> "DVD-RAM (DVD–Random Access Memory)"
00:36:02 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc apple's superdrives can handle it too
00:36:06 <ehird> unless you have tons and tons of lasers
00:36:11 <ehird> all focused at different points
00:36:19 <AnMaster> ehird, IT IS NOT RAM AS IN RANDOM ACCESS? KAY?
00:36:21 <pikhq> Taiwan makes fucking huge claims.
00:36:26 <ehird> AnMaster: ""DVD-RAM (DVD–Random Access Memory)""
00:36:40 <ehird> …which is impossible.
00:36:46 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, read the article
00:36:56 <GregorR> pikhq: This would appear to be the legal claims they've made ever since they were ousted.
00:36:59 <ehird> It's not random access.
00:37:09 <GregorR> pikhq: Nowadays they're basically just trying to get people to accept that Taiwan is not part of China.
00:37:15 <pikhq> No, that's their current claims.
00:38:25 <pikhq> It has never renounced any claims over mainland China or over Mongolia...
00:38:36 <GregorR> Although the administration of pro-independence President Chen Shui-bian (2000–2008) did not actively claim sovereignty over all of China, the national boundaries of the ROC have not been redrawn and its outstanding territorial claims from the late 1940s have not been revised.
00:38:41 <GregorR> Bleh, screwy new president apparently.
00:41:02 <pikhq> China v. Taiwan is screwy.
00:41:15 <pikhq> Because somehow, Taiwan declaring independence would result in a war.
00:41:27 <pikhq> ... But Taiwan claiming all of China would not...
00:41:48 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, you found out now about DVD-RAM I guess?
00:45:22 <AnMaster> it wants three dvds then fills each with about 1 GB
00:45:34 <ehird> I like how you've had the laptop for many, many hours and haven't actually got around to USING it.
00:46:26 <ehird> You know what there's a market for?
00:46:46 <ehird> Computer makers that ship sturdy, standard systems without cutting corners for a non-cost-cutting price.
00:46:54 <ehird> Without any custom software or manuals or anything.
00:47:11 <ehird> Heavens only know why there isn't such a company.
00:47:20 <ehird> Wow, that sentence was awkward.
00:47:30 <AnMaster> ehird, and with any cds needed already generated
00:47:41 <ehird> It's stock everything.
00:47:44 <ehird> They give you the OS CD.
00:47:45 <pikhq> In other words, someone that ships what you could get from Newegg, only already put together.
00:47:45 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I ran memtest on it
00:47:56 <ehird> Oh, and they should memtest before shipping. :-P
00:47:59 <AnMaster> ehird, just wanted to be sure early on the memory had no issues
00:48:20 <ehird> Add a bit of craftsmanship to picking the components, and perhaps their own, decent case.
00:48:42 <ehird> (Craftsmanship including, e.g. "replace the heatsink/fans with something bigger, better and quieter" and the like)
00:48:51 <ehird> It's silly that it doesn't exist.
00:49:03 <ehird> Especially for laptops.
00:49:13 <ehird> You can't newegg yourself a DIY laptop.
00:49:53 <AnMaster> it's a bit less spacious really
00:49:54 <ehird> AnMaster: Chassis, screen and also extreme thinness is required.
00:49:56 <ehird> Custom motherboards.
00:50:04 <ehird> Also, portable power.
00:50:21 <AnMaster> ehird, the power adapter is mostly external
00:50:24 <ehird> Laptops are truly hard things to make, and a marvel of engineering; how come you can't get one that's made right?
00:50:26 <ehird> AnMaster: battery etc
00:50:39 <AnMaster> you can build that for normal computers
00:50:50 <AnMaster> or you could DYI that too in plywood
00:50:51 <ehird> AnMaster: You can buy them, but they kind of suck and also are hard to get a hold of.
00:50:56 <ehird> I mean, DIYing a desktop?
00:51:00 <ehird> Get a case. Attach the mobo.
00:51:04 <ehird> Put in the CPU, apply heatsink and fan.
00:51:07 <ehird> Put in the RAM, harddrives.
00:51:10 <AnMaster> ehird, yep. I meant getting a laptop case and such
00:51:11 <ehird> Attach powersupply.
00:51:18 <ehird> A laptop is much more involved.
00:51:24 <AnMaster> why not make the mobos standard sizes like they are for desktops
00:51:37 <ehird> AnMaster: too big!
00:51:48 <AnMaster> ehird, well not the *same* standard sizes of course
00:51:56 <ehird> they're too square
00:51:58 <ehird> it just isn't practical
00:52:00 <ehird> AnMaster: also wifi antenna
00:52:08 <ehird> the antenna is wound around the whole case?
00:52:09 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't it in the monitor
00:52:12 <ehird> to get the best signal
00:52:22 <AnMaster> ehird, it was on my old ibook!
00:52:23 <ehird> you have a sprawling wifi snake in your laptop, filling all the gaps
00:53:07 <ehird> the most accurate of all sources
00:53:15 <ehird> AnMaster: also, don't you have a screwdriver? check ;-)
00:54:16 <ehird> have you ever used a computer warranty? also, you know that it'd be basically impossible to check whether you've opened it?
00:55:05 <AnMaster> it is "extracting files" still... for the recovery cd thingy
00:55:16 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I used computer warranty once
00:55:47 <ehird> but not before they checked the self-detonating bulb of didtheyopenthislaptopupness!
00:55:55 <AnMaster> ehird, also it isn't since there is a "warranty void if removed" label over one of the screwholes
00:56:17 <AnMaster> ehird, won't get it loose easily. I know how they work
00:56:25 <AnMaster> they break rather than come away easily
00:56:30 <ehird> http://ilovetypography.com/img/2009/02/kern-iphone.jpg ← <3
00:56:57 <AnMaster> <ehird> but not before they checked the self-detonating bulb of didtheyopenthislaptopupness! <-- actually that time it was on a desktop
00:58:19 <ehird> as i said, feigned
00:59:36 <AnMaster> 5400 and 7200 seems like very odd choices for RPM
01:01:21 <ehird> motor speeds i guess
01:01:33 <ehird> i.e. this motor speed runs this diameter platter at N rpm
01:01:39 <AnMaster> maybe those speeds are cheaper and masproduced?
01:01:39 <ehird> and that motor speed is something saner
01:02:15 <AnMaster> the lenovo comes with three partitions
01:02:23 <AnMaster> one is C: the other ones are weird ones
01:02:37 <ehird> it sounds like lenovo made thinkpads kind of crappy.
01:02:46 <AnMaster> called Q: Lenovo and S: SERVICE003
01:03:18 <AnMaster> ehird, these are recovery partitions thingies
01:03:28 <AnMaster> not sure what exactly is the point of two separate ones
01:03:31 <ehird> I bloody hate recovery crap
01:03:38 <ehird> Just gimme the OS disk and tell users to back up
01:03:45 <ehird> (persuasively, of course.)
01:03:47 <AnMaster> Q: This is for recovery, click here to create a recovery disk
01:04:05 <AnMaster> S: This is required to boot windows. Please don't change anything
01:04:14 <AnMaster> (the messages are longer, abridged versions)
01:07:28 <AnMaster> ehird, it seems S: is for the "preboot area" which is some sort of hardware test thingy you can access during boot
01:07:50 <ehird> kill it! kill it with fire!
01:08:01 <AnMaster> it takes just a few hundred MB
01:08:10 <AnMaster> which is quite a lot for that indeed
01:08:25 <AnMaster> ehird, I think it will break the bootloader. They don't use the standard windows one
01:08:39 <AnMaster> once I got the restore dvds burned
01:08:58 <ehird> i thought you were wiping windows anyhoo
01:09:13 <pikhq> ... They don't use the standard Windows bootloader?
01:09:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: Kill it! Kill it with fire!
01:09:50 <AnMaster> I mounted the recover dvd 1 thingy
01:10:01 <AnMaster> python24 recovery swwork utils
01:10:08 <AnMaster> arvid@tux /mnt/cdrom/preboot $ ls
01:10:16 <AnMaster> damn copy paste error destroying the effect
01:10:57 <AnMaster> anyway: http://pastebin.ca/1506371
01:13:12 <ehird> Windows poop edition.
01:13:22 <ehird> But really: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Preinstallation_Environment
01:17:45 <AnMaster> ehird, can it run normal windows software?
01:18:16 <ehird> A subset, I guess.
01:18:20 <ehird> See the screenshot.
01:20:53 <GregorR> http://codu.org/imgs/win3plusplus.png ^^
01:21:34 <ehird> GregorR: Schedule+, ey? Or should I say... CRON?
01:22:07 <ehird> From that screenshot.
01:22:17 <GregorR> ehird: Yeah, but you think that just because it's in that screenshot means I use it? :P
01:22:18 <ehird> Schedule+ runs a program at a given time, IIRC.
01:22:21 <ehird> Or at least, that's one feature.
01:22:26 <ehird> GregorR: I was just juxtaposing with the bash :P
01:22:40 <ehird> GregorR: Can you run Windows 95 explorer.exe on that?
01:22:47 <ehird> You could have a taskbar with the lean, mean 3.11 kernel!
01:22:53 <GregorR> Actually, no, probably not.
01:23:09 <GregorR> The thing about NT 3.51 is that it has nearly everything about Win32 EXCEPT that it has no registry.
01:23:19 <GregorR> So things written exclusively for Windows don't work, but things ported to Windows do.
01:23:22 <ehird> GregorR: I'm sure you could write a registryd.exe :-
01:23:39 <ehird> there's nothing wrong with a registry, AnMaster. it just so happens that windows has two
01:23:46 <ehird> and the other has no name
01:24:07 <ehird> if it was the only one that'd be fine
01:24:10 <ehird> it's having two that sucks
01:24:26 <AnMaster> the other one is stored on the first
01:24:40 <AnMaster> c:\windows\system32\config\ iirc
01:24:57 <ehird> where else would it go
01:25:12 <AnMaster> ehird, on a separate partition with it's own registry file system?
01:25:21 <ehird> Those obviously don't exist
01:25:24 <ehird> so I don't see why it's surprising
01:25:34 <AnMaster> ehird, the file system would be just the registry file
01:26:35 <ehird> as anyone who's ever looked at partitioning knows
01:26:38 <ehird> so it's obviously on the partition
01:26:57 <AnMaster> ehird, make the CMOS very big and store it there?
01:27:23 <ehird> Besides, wiping a Windows partition and reinstalling it wipes the registry too :P
01:28:11 <AnMaster> ehird, I was just suggesting future "improvements" to get rid of it being on the partition :(
01:33:33 <AnMaster> ehird, use non-volatile RAM and store it there?
01:33:46 <ehird> Non-volatile RAM = SSD
01:34:04 <AnMaster> ehird, well.. non-volatile ram can be magnetic ram too
01:34:12 <AnMaster> but that would have the in memory format
01:34:38 <AnMaster> ehird, you still access it like a filesystem right
01:34:44 <AnMaster> not by reading locations in RAM
01:34:50 <Sgeo> o.O, ehird and I reply to the same person on Reddit, barely even noticed
01:34:53 <ehird> what's the difference
01:35:00 <ehird> just use dd on the block device
01:35:04 <AnMaster> ehird, well I meant something you would use the instruction "mov" to write to for example
01:35:08 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/94bqc/oh_mr_dawkinsthats_cold/c0bdodr
01:35:28 <ehird> Your reply sucks, mine doesn't :-P
01:35:43 <ehird> [[Unfortunately, I find that the format of Q&A sessions following a lecture leave very little room for real discussion. It's also my personal belief that Dawkins is a very "hard-line" atheist and doesn't want to give this man's question any validity by justifying it with a response any more in-depth than, "Sorry, I know it matters to you, but it's still crap."]]
01:35:51 <ehird> — as opposed to "Aw, you're delusional. That's okay! Fluffy bunnies."
01:35:55 <ehird> (I know that's not yours)
01:35:59 <ehird> (I just saw it now)
01:40:24 * AnMaster checks if the recovery cd works... yep
01:40:29 <AnMaster> right time to install linux over it all
01:41:13 <pikhq> And it took you how many hours?
01:41:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, which I ran while I was eating
01:41:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, burning recovery dvds? an hour maybe?
01:42:20 <pikhq> So, about as much time as I spend on a Gentoo install.
01:42:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, and playing around with vista to check how shitty it was
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01:50:09 <AnMaster> for partitioning: http://www.sysresccd.org/Main_Page
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02:20:24 * GregorR switched to XFCE recently.
02:21:31 <oklopol> AnMaster: do realize i will need you to either tell me you've listened to it, or tell my you won't. i do not need comments on the content, but i need my messages to go through.
02:21:54 <oklopol> also i'm content with you not actually listening to it, as long as you consistently lie you have.
02:24:14 <AnMaster> oklopol, right... will listen to it in a sec
02:25:04 <oklopol> no rush. but yeah do it right away.
02:25:40 <AnMaster> oklopol, fine. But rather bad microphone?
02:25:46 <GregorR> I shall now attempt to make a native winelf compiler on winelf.
02:25:49 <AnMaster> and just a blur at the end right?
02:26:02 <GregorR> Maybe I should make macelf ...
02:26:05 <oklopol> i can hear most of the notes in the end too
02:26:29 <GregorR> It's an environment for making ELF executables for Windows.
02:26:54 <GregorR> No, the whole environment serves no purpose whatsoever.
02:27:01 <AnMaster> GregorR, I'm just so surprised
02:27:12 <GregorR> Yes, I have an ELF loader for Windows.
02:27:22 <GregorR> And a patch to GCC that allows it to create valid ELF binaries.
02:27:35 <AnMaster> how does it hook into the windows system
02:27:52 <AnMaster> GregorR, can it produce *.so too? or just *.a libraries?
02:28:16 <GregorR> It doesn't hook in to Windows in any meaningful way. You have to run the binaries like elfload.exe someELF
02:28:42 <GregorR> You can dynaload both .so's and .dll's.
02:28:54 <GregorR> Although .dll's still have all the limitations .dll's have of course :P
02:29:26 <pikhq> GregorR: That's pretty awesome.
02:29:36 <GregorR> I have no TLS support, no.
02:29:40 <GregorR> Not sure how to do that on Windows.
02:29:42 <oklopol> AnMaster: no, definitely not blur, at least when played with my computer's speaker; but anyway, not important
02:30:11 <oklopol> i play more notes a second than it takes pics a second
02:30:25 <AnMaster> oklopol, need a better camera :P
02:30:40 <AnMaster> I want crystal clear pro recording sound next time
02:30:44 <pikhq> GregorR: You could totally use that as the basis for UNIX-on-Windows.
02:30:45 <AnMaster> oklopol, what song was it btw?
02:31:00 <oklopol> something i composed like 5 years ago
02:31:10 <oklopol> it's actually longer, but i only play that part fast
02:31:20 <GregorR> Just a sec, I'm sticking it on codu.org ... had it on berlios.de
02:31:44 <pikhq> I will totally check that out once I get this XP VM installed.
02:32:27 <pikhq> GregorR: I assume that you have library versioning.
02:32:45 <GregorR> pikhq: Patches accepted ;)
02:32:54 <pikhq> Windows needs it so badly. So very badly.
02:33:31 <GregorR> http://codu.org/projects/winelf/
02:34:06 <GregorR> (I'm still mid-push, so wait a tick :P )
02:38:40 <GregorR> pikhq: You want the elfload directory, btw.
02:38:48 <GregorR> (elfload is portable, btw)
02:39:03 <GregorR> (works on Linux, but can't load Linux ELFs ... trust me, it does work though :P )
02:42:16 <GregorR> It can load statically-compiled Linux ELFs, it only can't load normal ones because they depend on libc, and libc depends on ld.so >_>
02:47:21 <pikhq> You should totally make a Cygwin-alike using this. ;p
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02:49:20 <pikhq> Hmm. libhost_ means... Yes, you could build a Cygwin userspace with it, depending only on Cygwin.
02:49:32 <pikhq> (with some effort)
02:49:44 <GregorR> ... nearly all you need is to elfimplib cygwin1.dll
02:49:47 <pikhq> (like making exec use elfload)
02:49:58 <GregorR> Yeah, that's a problem >_>
02:50:17 <pikhq> But Cygwin is GPL'd. ;)
02:50:20 <GregorR> The main problem is that I have /no/ idea which functions in the various libraries I've collectively called libc are capable of calling functions.
02:50:24 <pikhq> So, it's definitely doable.
02:50:52 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure in Cygwin, it all goes through cygwin1.dll.
02:51:26 <GregorR> I was referring to solving the same problem for what I have right now.
02:51:26 <pikhq> That was a weird statement.
02:51:45 <pikhq> That would be a royal bitch.
02:52:24 <GregorR> The main reason I want to solve it is so that when I compile GCC, it'll actually work ;)
02:53:45 <pikhq> Perfectly good thing to want to solve.
02:54:43 <pikhq> Hmm. You could probably get ReactOS to actually use WinELF for its POSIX subsystem...
02:55:12 <GregorR> I've never tried it on ReactOS :P
02:55:17 <oklopol> `translate everything to japanese
02:55:18 <GregorR> In fact, I've never tried it on Vista >_>
02:55:19 <GregorR> I wouldn't be surprised if it failed utterly there.
02:55:51 <GregorR> Works on wine, works on Windows XP.
02:56:25 <pikhq> Then it should work on ReactOS.
02:56:37 <GregorR> Anybody got Vista somewhere?
02:56:39 <pikhq> Most of the ReactOS userspace is WINE code.
02:56:52 <oklopol> not that that's useful to you
02:56:53 <pikhq> No, but you should be able to obtain Server 2008 for free.
02:57:02 <pikhq> (since you're a student.
02:57:06 <AnMaster> suggested computer name for the thinkpad?
02:57:17 <AnMaster> "phoenix" and "tux" are already in use
02:57:41 <GregorR> pikhq: I could get Vista or 2008 for free, but that would wound me deeply.
02:58:05 <GregorR> oklopol: Why is that not useful to me?
02:58:20 <oklopol> GregorR: because i'm busy spamming estoeric atm.
02:59:21 <pikhq> GregorR: Fair enough.
03:05:22 <GregorR> ../../binutils/dwarf.c:207: error: unknown conversion type character ‘I’ in format
03:05:36 <GregorR> If it just didn't check, it wouldn't mark that as an error, and it would work :P
03:05:54 <pikhq> GCC hearts its checking.
03:05:57 <GregorR> Instead I have to dig into the bowels of GCC, and convince it that yes, I DO want the MSVC printf conversion type characters on ELF.
03:07:38 * pikhq looks for how to convince GCC to accept other conversion types
03:13:54 <pikhq> Disables all format checking in theory.
03:20:40 <Warrigal> `translateto japanese everything
03:20:50 <Warrigal> `translateto ja panese everything
03:22:14 <GregorR> `translateto ja This is a test.
03:22:28 <GregorR> It just couldn't figure out the format above because it was half English and half Japanese I suspect.
03:23:11 <Warrigal> Back-translating, はバズ means "Baz:"
03:23:18 <GregorR> pikhq: re -Wno-format: I'd rather make it do it right.
03:24:29 <GregorR> `translateto ja I do not speak Japanese.
03:24:40 <Warrigal> I'm going to translate "Beef: it's what's for dinner" and see if it begins with "牛肉は".
03:24:46 <Warrigal> `translateto ja Beef: it's what's for dinner.
03:25:06 <GregorR> Somebody's off by one character.
03:25:06 <pikhq> GregorR: Making GCC handle other conversion types requires glibc.
03:25:08 <Warrigal> `translateto ja Beef is what's for dinner.
03:25:32 <GregorR> pikhq: GCC handles other conversion types already on MingW >_<
03:25:45 * Warrigal transliterates 牛肉：ディナーのためのものだ。
03:27:59 <pikhq> Something to do with register_printf_function.
03:29:07 <Warrigal> I'm sure that last bit is more than one word.
03:31:36 <GregorR> So am I correct in my assumption that in spite of all the positive comments a moment ago, not a single person has checked out winelf, and heaven forbit the thought that they've actually compiled it? :P
03:32:48 <GregorR> Oh wait, pikhq identified libhost_
03:37:31 <pikhq> I've not compiled it for lack of functioning Win32 or the desire to set it up, but I have been poking around in the source.
03:39:37 <GregorR> I don't have Win32 right now, but I can still compile it :P
03:40:23 <pikhq> Though the crossdev script makes that nice...
03:41:42 <pikhq> Then, should just be crossdev --target=i686-pc-win32-mingw or some such.
03:42:44 <pikhq> And it magically compiles a crosscompiler.
03:43:03 <GregorR> I'll betcha it can't do i686-win32elf ;)
03:45:13 <pikhq> Could without too much work.
03:45:31 <GregorR> win32elf's "libc" is wonko
03:46:22 <pikhq> The really nice thing is that the crosscompilers from crossdev are automatically stuck in the package manager...
03:56:33 <pikhq> Currently fetching gcc.
04:04:38 <GregorR> Any Europhiles about? Which side of a Euro coin is "heads"?
04:05:20 <oklopol> heads is usually the one with the head, the other has the number, euros just have the number
04:05:40 <oklopol> i don't actually know, never threw a coin in english
04:09:54 <GregorR> "heads" is the side with the head, yes :P
04:10:02 <GregorR> But euros have a number and some symbol.
04:10:11 <GregorR> The symbol is reminiscent of what I'd expect on the "tails" side of a US coin.
04:10:34 <GregorR> Anyway, Wikipedia confirms that the numbered side is "tails"
04:10:44 <GregorR> (Or, more precisely, the reverse, as opposed to the obverse)
04:12:17 <oklopol> well now that wp confirms it, i can tell you i was actually 100% sure about it.
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06:42:13 <GregorR> The backup finally seems unwonko, at a mere 8MB rather than the 65MB/day it was at first.
06:44:04 <GregorR> I'm doing a nightly differential backup.
06:44:18 <GregorR> The first night to the second night something got screwy, so the diff was 65MB (the total size).
06:44:28 <GregorR> The second to the third night it got fixed, which of course again made the diff 65MB.
06:44:39 <GregorR> Tonight it's finally down to a reasonable 8MB.
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10:21:36 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Way to worsen the balance, China
10:22:40 <oerjan> no that won't worsen the balance, assuming it actually does decrease infanticide.
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11:07:38 <ehird> AnMaster: xfce is terrible.
11:07:52 <AnMaster> ehird, why? It seems quite nice and simple
11:08:35 <ehird> How to make XFCE: Take gnome. Make it uglier. Make it more obscure. Rewrite a ton of stuff because NIH. Add too many settings for its own good.
11:09:08 <AnMaster> ehird, KDE 4 sucks a lot. Gnome sucks even more. I tried both today. xfce4 seems rather nice.
11:09:30 <ehird> <ehird> X is bad. <AnMaster> Why? <ehird> Reasons. <AnMaster> X is not bad.
11:09:53 <AnMaster> ehird, <AnMaster> list some better one
11:10:11 <AnMaster> xfce may be far from perfect, but it seems better than the two other alternatives I tested
11:10:30 <ehird> My broken English parser's stack overflowed, but Gnome is better.
11:10:47 <ehird> If you have some psychological control freak problems, try one of the window managers like pekwm.
11:11:54 <AnMaster> ehird, oh btw the touchpad is mutlitouch
11:12:05 <ehird> Yes… like all Synaptics touchpads.
11:12:48 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, I can easily do the same to you; <Anmaster> Gnome sucks even more. <ehird> Why?
11:13:35 <AnMaster> ehird, well this is of course subjective. But it always seemed to lack settings, and have a kind of "dark" feeling, even if you changed theme
11:13:45 <AnMaster> (and I dislike that dark feeling)
11:14:02 <ehird> 01:56 AnMaster: suggested computer name for the thinkpad? \
11:14:14 <AnMaster> ehird, well it timed out and I went for dragon
11:14:21 <ehird> AnMaster: Okay, wait, dark feel?
11:14:31 <AnMaster> ehird, but why dingbat? I might change if it is funny enough
11:14:37 <ehird> http://library.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/2.26/figures/gnome.png.en_GB
11:14:42 <ehird> This is what stockG nome looks like.
11:14:52 <ehird> I'm having a hard time imagining something more... well... light.
11:15:17 <ehird> XFCE is… much the same, so I don't understand at all.
11:15:26 <AnMaster> ehird, it was much worse a few years ago, but still not light like kdeclassic is. xfce4 needed a bit of poking to make it light
11:15:45 <ehird> Really, I can't help you with undefined notions.
11:15:57 <AnMaster> ehird, well this is all subjective...
11:16:20 <AnMaster> however I seriously need to fix the fonts in xfce somehow...
11:16:23 <ehird> alternate universe: <AnMaster> Why isn't XFCE nice? <ehird> Its gloob is too zackynicky. <AnMaster> Ohh
11:17:02 <ehird> Programmer's Day - an informal festival programmers, celebrated on the 256-day year (255 th with a zero). Number 256 (2 8), chosen because it is the quantity of numbers, which can be expressed through vosmirazryadnogo bytes. Also, «256» in hexadecimal notation - it «100» ( «0x100»). And this is the maximum degree of 2, which is less than 365 (days per year).
11:17:04 <ehird> 24 July 2009, the Ministry of Communications and Mass Communications of the Russian Federation prepared and submitted to the Government of the Russian Federation a draft Decree of President Russia «On the Day of the programmer" [2].
11:17:18 <Slereah> !swedish wir muessen die juden ausrotten
11:17:19 <EgoBot> vur mooessee deee-a joodee oosruttee
11:17:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Did you install the BCI freetype?
11:18:03 <ehird> Subpixel antialiasing is uselessly ugly without it.
11:18:03 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure yet... I still haven't got stuff like wlan setup properly. And touchpad is kind of neurotic atm
11:18:13 <ehird> Also, yeah, no-hinting just looks bad in freetype.
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11:18:48 <ehird> "I can't contradict or refute the materialist hypothesis because what I am speaking of is an unmeasurable internal state not observable behavior. "
11:19:07 <ehird> "This exists because I say it does. It is not observable in any way, nor does it affect anything."
11:19:16 * ehird CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP
11:20:06 <AnMaster> ehird, how do I know if freetype is BCI?
11:20:20 <AnMaster> actually I could just check the PKGBUILD file
11:20:25 <ehird> Are you using Ubuntu? If not, get a package marked super-illegal-bci-this-will-explode-in-to-your-FACE.
11:20:33 <ehird> ~end of flowchart~
11:20:38 <ehird> AnMaster: I was doing it in flowchart form.
11:21:04 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, it'd be nice if you could clarify your feeling of brooding Gnome evil darkness. Maybe the window shadows?… they're not default, you know :P
11:21:42 <ehird> Have you, BTW, set the dpi properly? RGB antialiasing would incidentally look like crap with that being wrong too, BCI or not.
11:21:46 <AnMaster> that is one part of it at least
11:21:49 <ehird> AnMaster: is your gnome experience mainly with ubuntu?
11:22:00 <ehird> its icon theme is not default or anything; it does make it quite dark indeed
11:22:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I think first time I used gnome was Red Hat 6
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11:23:07 <ehird> You didn't say that that I read, but.
11:23:20 <AnMaster> ehird, err? Parse fail at "that that"
11:23:29 <ehird> (You didn't say that) that I read
11:23:40 <AnMaster> ah ok.. anyway: <AnMaster> ehird, KDE 4 sucks a lot. Gnome sucks even more. I tried both today. xfce4 seems rather nice.
11:23:56 <AnMaster> ehird, used each for maybe half an hour
11:24:06 <ehird> I'd, personally, vote in favor of giving gnome a try and, like, changing the icon theme? But you using Gnome would pretty much destroy the universe, so.
11:24:19 <ehird> I mean, it's not perfect, but no desktop environment is.
11:24:26 <ehird> (Apart from the one you make yourself and only use its apps.)
11:24:35 <AnMaster> ehird, I did change icon theme
11:25:16 <ehird> AnMaster: did you try the Tango icons?
11:25:35 <ehird> http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Desktop_Project // they're not flashy but they're quite … bright
11:25:51 <ehird> http://tango.freedesktop.org/images/2/20/Tango-feet.png
11:25:52 <AnMaster> there seems to be a patch to enable it in arch
11:25:53 <AnMaster> -#define TT_CONFIG_OPTION_UNPATENTED_HINTING
11:25:54 <AnMaster> +#undef TT_CONFIG_OPTION_UNPATENTED_HINTING
11:26:01 <AnMaster> -/* #define TT_CONFIG_OPTION_BYTECODE_INTERPRETER */
11:26:01 <ehird> AnMaster: Unpatented?
11:26:01 <AnMaster> +#define TT_CONFIG_OPTION_BYTECODE_INTERPRETER
11:26:08 <AnMaster> -#undef TT_CONFIG_OPTION_COMPONENT_OFFSET_SCALED
11:26:09 <AnMaster> +#define TT_CONFIG_OPTION_COMPONENT_OFFSET_SCALED
11:26:11 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, that would presumably do it.
11:26:22 <AnMaster> ehird, and well it looks quite sane apart from DPI
11:26:35 <AnMaster> how did you calculate DPI again? the one you gave me seems slightly wrong
11:26:51 <ehird> AnMaster: Measure the diagonal size in inches of the screen, plz?
11:26:54 <ehird> I'll give an exact DPI.
11:27:20 <ehird> Hooray for tape measures?
11:27:47 <AnMaster> the edge stands out a bit in the upper part so can't get very close
11:28:06 <ehird> AnMaster: could it be 0.5 cm longer, perhaps?
11:28:18 <ehird> if so that measurement is useless as it doesn't differentiate 15.4"/15.6"
11:28:36 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, try 128.65 = 129
11:28:54 <ehird> BTW, if the fonts look fine you might not have tried RGB antialiasing. Without the BCI, you can really see the red/green/blue.
11:29:03 <ehird> (Maybe that's why you hated it.)
11:29:21 <ehird> Admittedly it might not matter so much with such tiny pixels, but.
11:30:04 <AnMaster> hm actually X already pre-calculated it to 128, but then I started using your measurement and it got screwed up
11:30:20 <ehird> Well, 128.6 is more like 129 than 128...
11:30:28 <ehird> It presumably rounded to a power of two.
11:30:31 <ehird> I guess it has 128 bitmaps.
11:30:31 <AnMaster> ehird, it was still quite close
11:30:45 <AnMaster> ehird, as opposed to windows going for 96
11:30:59 <ehird> Windows doesn't even try.
11:31:15 <AnMaster> anyway touchpad is still neurotic
11:31:23 <ehird> Installed the closed source drivers?
11:31:29 <AnMaster> trackpoint seems saner after some fiddeling
11:31:33 <ehird> (Closed source being a good synonym for "working" in the field of drivers.)
11:31:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Dunno. Search the AUR?
11:31:48 <ehird> (Well, and the main list.)
11:31:52 <AnMaster> ehird, well thinkwiki doesn't mention it
11:32:04 <AnMaster> just the usual open source synaptics drivers
11:32:47 <ehird> Enough Lame Computing - The project for rewriting the computing world
11:32:51 <ehird> Now we are STILL learning Haskell - this language is teaching us a lot! (March 2008 - November 2009)
11:32:56 <ehird> Reinvisioning computing without having a fucking clue about relevant languages fail.
11:33:21 <AnMaster> that quote just seems strange. I can't even figure out what part is wtf
11:34:00 <ehird> Because they have an ALL-ENCOMPASSING NICELY FORMATTED PAGE OF WONDERNESS that consists of saying something only slightly removed from "Hey, I tried Linux today. It's much better than Windows!" in context.
11:34:15 <ehird> Also, the only other links are to pages that are self-labeldly buzzwords.
11:35:35 <AnMaster> why is firefox called "shiretoko"
11:35:57 <AnMaster> I thought it was iceweasel that was the non-branded one
11:36:15 <ehird> It's a nightly thing.
11:36:22 <ehird> Shiretoko Alpha 1 Release Notes
11:36:22 <ehird> 4 Sep 2008 ... Shiretoko Alpha 1 is an early developer milestone for the next version of Firefox that is being built on top of Mozilla's Gecko 1.9.1 layout ...
11:36:26 <ehird> AnMaster: so I guess they stole the name for it.
11:36:30 <ehird> Why are you using a non-branded version?
11:36:42 <ehird> Discover Shiretoko
11:36:44 <AnMaster> ehird, because I installed it from arch repo?
11:36:44 <ehird> Stories of a world natural heritage
11:36:46 <ehird> site and the Firefox web browser.
11:36:48 <ehird> DiscoverShiretoko.org
11:36:51 <ehird> AnMaster: Arch don't have the non-branded version?
11:37:40 <ehird> They sucked Mozilla's dick.
11:37:47 <ehird> Yeah, ship my branding, baby.
11:37:51 <ehird> It's non-free but that's okay with me, baby.
11:38:02 <ehird> ↑↑ This is how Ubuntu decisions are made
11:38:09 <ehird> AnMaster: but anyway doesn't have arch have non-free stuff in its repo?
11:38:26 <ehird> I'd recommend trying out one of those nifty WebKit browsers, but iirc one of them ignored my dpi settings or something when I last tried 'em.
11:38:51 <ehird> Arora's pretty cool though.
11:38:59 <ehird> Fits in with GTK environments too if you install that theme thingy.
11:39:09 <ehird> (GTK theme thingy.)
11:39:38 * AnMaster gets yaourt then http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=5401
11:40:43 <ehird> AnMaster: thinkhdaps, you mean
11:40:58 <ehird> that's a gtk applet for it
11:41:59 <ehird> http://www.discovershiretoko.org/en/stories/;; Damn Mozilla corp, this shit is strained
11:51:15 <AnMaster> I know laptop has hdaps, it worked under windows
11:51:21 <AnMaster> yet linux claims it isn't supported
11:51:40 <ehird> “Linux: It just works!”
11:51:50 <ehird> “*working may involve doing it yourself”
11:51:56 <AnMaster> ehird, most stuff does on desktops though
11:52:07 <ehird> AnMaster: And more laptops are sold than desktops. :P
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12:18:01 <ehird> I should start speaking like Dijkstra or something.
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12:50:06 <AnMaster> hm seems to have hit some sort of wlan bug
12:58:02 <AnMaster> it fails to assoc for several minutes after a cold boot
12:58:22 <AnMaster> seems like same as this: http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-wireless-networking-41/wifi-connection-instantly-dissassociating-on-hp2510p-using-iwlagn-driver-692665/?s=f40682f15c4e0a045ce9e004a347851a
13:34:10 <ehird> [[As a deist[…]To me, the most basic definition of God is the turtle on the bottom. When and if science comes up with proof of the nature of the basis of our universe, I will continue to call that God.]]
13:34:14 <ehird> Dammit, I hate pantheistic deism.
13:34:24 <ehird> "Oh, I believe in God! If by God you mean NATURAL PROCESSES."
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13:42:10 <ehird> http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,805681,00.html If only this took off then; we'd have progressed beyond copyright decades sooner! We're currently nearing the end of "Phonevision"... funny.
13:42:21 <AnMaster> yay got suspend to ram to work
13:42:47 <ehird> AnMaster: I guess ThinkPads aren't quite as out-of-the-box Linuxy as they once were?
13:43:09 <AnMaster> ehird, and this seems like a rather new model. As in: nothing knows about it
13:43:24 <ehird> The R500s are like circa 2007 I think.
13:43:28 <ehird> Maybe the specific model is new.
13:43:36 <ehird> (Did you get an R500 or something else?)
13:47:25 <ehird> (note that Phonevision era's $1 = today's $8.20)
13:51:13 <AnMaster> suspend to disk worked out of box. Just one thiny issue: BIOS sees it as a normal bootup. Can probably be easily fixed
13:52:52 <AnMaster> dual suspend works with same settings as for suspend to ram
13:53:29 <ehird> what happens when you close the case?
13:54:11 <AnMaster> ehird, I haven't set up acpid yet
13:54:44 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, the first issue with suspend to ram was that it didn't turn on backlight afterwards
13:54:57 <AnMaster> just had to tell it to rerun VBE POST
13:55:12 <ehird> i don't even know what that *means*
13:55:54 <AnMaster> ehird, well. It basically means tell video bios to reinitialise it's own state
13:56:07 <AnMaster> and now suspend to both works...
13:56:37 <AnMaster> ok not really. that messed up a bit
13:57:02 <AnMaster> vertical blue lines with some Missingno there
13:57:23 <AnMaster> and I could just type reboot by hand and it worked
13:57:41 <ehird> I'm glad computers like ,e.
13:58:17 <ehird> That generally wasn't referring to the typo.
13:58:21 <ehird> Did you take it as that?
13:58:59 <ehird> 13:57 ehird: I'm glad computers like ,e.
13:59:01 <ehird> 13:57 ehird: (Generally.)
13:59:03 <ehird> Generally was just a random remark.
13:59:06 <ehird> Not a "haha, how ironic, it made me typo".\
13:59:29 <AnMaster> it was "hah" about that they "generally like you"
13:59:53 <ehird> You are not in interpreting error state.
13:59:54 <AnMaster> okay... suspend two both is having serious issues... not sure why
14:00:21 <ehird> You have to think about it from its perspective.
14:00:27 <ehird> "Okay, okay, we're suspending to RAM, okay, that's good, okay..."
14:00:33 <ehird> "now er... wait, i can't do something, I'm suspended"
14:00:42 <ehird> "Shit. Shit. That doesn't make any fucking sense. What did I do?"
14:00:44 <AnMaster> ehird, it saves to disk first...
14:00:50 <ehird> "What did I do now? Maybe I'll just break carefully."
14:00:51 <ehird> AnMaster: Umm, no.
14:00:58 <ehird> The whole point is that it suspends before saving to disk…
14:01:01 <ehird> Oh, you mean that's the issue?
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14:01:27 <AnMaster> ehird, yes it did. I saw the text saying: "suspending to disk...." for a few seconds, then the suspend to ram led came on
14:01:53 <ehird> AnMaster: that wasn't the full suspension
14:01:56 <ehird> that was just the strat
14:02:09 <ehird> AnMaster: your drive is not fast enough to write 4GB of RAM to disk in a few seconds
14:02:18 <AnMaster> ehird, linux doesn't write it all
14:02:27 <ehird> …which is most of it.
14:02:31 <AnMaster> it compresses with gzip or something like that
14:02:43 <AnMaster> ehird, dirty caches are flushed first
14:02:57 <ehird> Eww, dirty caches. That's just bad hygiene.
14:08:10 <AnMaster> suspend to both works in X though
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14:40:52 * ehird downloads the Windows 7 RC; VMWare Fusion
14:47:26 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
14:49:30 <ehird> https://profile.microsoft.com/RegSysProfileCenter/… ;; No, microsoft, you cannot run your component on my OS X system.
14:49:36 <ehird> It doesn't work that way.
14:57:56 -!- pikhq has joined.
14:57:59 <ehird> What web browsers support the Windows 7 RC download experience?
14:57:59 <ehird> Internet Explorer 7, Internet Explorer 8, and Firefox support the Windows 7 RC download experience. Please note that Internet Explorer 8 users behind a proxy server should use the automatic configuration for their proxy server for the best download experience.
14:58:14 <ehird> Switch to a new browser for the "Windows 7 RC download experience"!
14:58:25 <ehird> …Watch exciting progress bars?
14:58:53 <ehird> …so how am I meant to download Windows 7 WITHOUT ALREADY HAVING WINDOWS?
15:00:40 <AnMaster> so I'm going to try ubuntu instead. Hopefully it will work better out of box on this computer. Even though I will dislike it.
15:00:48 <ehird> Here we go, a direct link.
15:00:58 <ehird> AnMaster: They do, it's all they have.
15:01:02 <AnMaster> so I can try it first without installing it
15:01:03 <ehird> Get, of course, the 64-bit version.
15:01:13 <ehird> AnMaster: IIRC it persists your settings too.
15:01:19 <ehird> So you can make Gnome all fluffy and... non-dark... before installing.
15:01:41 <AnMaster> and yes of course the 64 bit one
15:01:50 <ehird> Yes. Considering you have 4GB of RAM...
15:02:45 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, you also agreed with me yesterday
15:02:48 <ehird> now you're trying Ubuntu
15:02:54 <ehird> are you sure you're feeling okay?
15:03:02 <ehird> I can check your forehead, you might have a fever... the UNIVERSE might have a fever...
15:03:39 <AnMaster> ehird, only to see if it works better out of box here. Since I can't get sound to work under arch either for it. And it has <generic Intel "HD" sound chipset> so not *that* unusual.
15:03:55 <AnMaster> still I hope it can handle encrypted home properly
15:04:11 <ehird> Ubuntu will work perfectly out of the box on just about any machine, especially ThinkPads, as they're popular for Linux.
15:04:21 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, you'll have to do some hacking with a chroot for that...
15:04:35 <ehird> AnMaster: I'd just encrypt the whole /
15:04:37 <AnMaster> now if it only was rolling release
15:04:52 <ehird> AnMaster: Eh, it'd work fine, no?
15:05:14 <ehird> AnMaster: But what if someone steals your /etc, dude?
15:05:20 <ehird> Or your secret kernel?
15:06:35 <AnMaster> sure takes a long time to download...
15:06:37 <ehird> AnMaster: It appears to be quite easy to do an "unencrypted /boot, encrypted /" partition dealie.
15:06:40 <ehird> Also, pick another mirror.
15:06:46 <ehird> I suggest Germany.
15:06:47 <AnMaster> ehird, it is maxing out my connection :P
15:07:15 <AnMaster> ehird, 697 MB large iso takes a bit
15:07:26 <ehird> AnMaster: it might be worth installing Ubuntu stock and migrating to encrypted later
15:07:28 <ehird> since it's a bit fiddly
15:07:36 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not sure I will install it
15:07:42 <ehird> I meant if you do decide to
15:07:50 <AnMaster> it depends on if alsa and wireless and suspend to ram and so on works on the livecd or not
15:08:09 <ehird> AnMaster: Almost certainly, although I'm not sure how suspend to RAM interacts with LiveCDs.
15:08:19 <ehird> Also, it'll be quite slow, because, y'know, CD.
15:08:34 <AnMaster> anyway I don't think the wlan will work properly
15:08:43 <ehird> Lemme tell you a story.
15:08:48 <AnMaster> ehird, open bugs at kernel.org
15:08:55 <ehird> ubuntu patch their kernel
15:09:19 <AnMaster> ehird, also the devs doesn't know if it is the wlan driver or wpa_supplicant causing the issues.
15:09:56 <ehird> For my mother's computer, she bought a really cheap Phillips wireless USB dongle. Crappy plasticy-feeling thing, has terrible Windows drivers, never worked properly, etc. At one point, I installed Ubuntu on it for her, unplugged the ethernet, and plugged it in, expecting to have to do some hacking. The wireless icon appeared. I clicked it, selected a network, and it was connected.
15:09:58 <ehird> it didn't even install any drivers
15:10:13 <ehird> I'd wager that if a no-name USB WiFi adapter works without doing anything, ThinkPad wireless will too
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15:10:35 <AnMaster> ehird, yes indeed. And this wlan works very well usually. Even intel are behind it
15:10:53 <ehird> Ubuntu backport an awful lot of fixes and the like, tho.
15:11:02 <ehird> AnMaster: Good news.
15:11:03 <ehird> Ubuntu 9.04 and later include ext4 as a manual partitioning option at installation time, including support for ext4 as the root filesystem. ...
15:11:08 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't fixed yet though. So unless they have a time machine?
15:11:29 <ehird> So if you install it and want to encrypt it's still probably better to migrate later when you have a working system, but ext4 is just a click in a dropdown.
15:11:36 <ehird> AnMaster: rolled back the breaking change?
15:11:56 <ehird> they wouldn't ship a release that messes up common wifi
15:11:58 <AnMaster> ehird, not a regression it seems. Rather it is an issue on very new chipsets.
15:12:31 <AnMaster> ehird, if sound works however...
15:12:45 <ehird> I'd be very, very surprised if Intel chipset sound didn't work immediately.
15:12:49 <AnMaster> and well suspend to ram works. So does suspend to disk. Just not suspend to both
15:13:13 <ehird> Oh, and Ubuntu comes with the BCI freetype OOTB, which is nice.
15:13:39 <ehird> s/OOTB/out of the box/; can't be using confusing terminology now can we
15:14:08 <AnMaster> ehird, ah got it to work under arch
15:14:14 <AnMaster> had to unload and reload the module once
15:14:23 <ehird> Well that's logical.
15:15:37 <ehird> meanwhile, http://imgur.com/WkkQL.png
15:15:52 <AnMaster> not very good quality speakers in it though. But meh, I have yet to see a laptop with good speakers
15:16:06 <ehird> A laptop with good speakers is a laptop that doesn't fit on your lap and can't close.
15:16:20 <ehird> Even this iMac's speakers take up the whole bottom grill.
15:16:23 <ehird> Well, apart from a bit in the middle.
15:16:27 <ehird> That's what you open to get at the RAM.
15:17:53 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I'm only going ubuntu then if wlan works without issues (there is an open bug in launchpad for it... not likely) and/or if suspend to ram, closing the lid and so on all works
15:18:21 <ehird> So you only want it if it's perfect, not better?
15:18:56 <AnMaster> ehird, I was going to say that I might change anyway if things seem good enough
15:19:04 <AnMaster> but now sound isn't a factor any more
15:19:19 <AnMaster> ehird, where are the checksums for ubuntu isos
15:19:38 <ehird> You actually check checksums?
15:19:45 <ehird> Probably on some FTP somewhere.
15:19:47 <AnMaster> ehird, for isos? yes definitely
15:21:08 <AnMaster> gpg signature would be best, but I at least expected sha256sums
15:23:12 <fizzie> I'm not sure I see the value of a fancy checksum if you're getting the checksum from pretty much the same place as the ISO image itself.
15:23:12 <ehird> Yes, but you're the only one who cares…
15:23:26 <ehird> fizzie: Maybe gamma rays corrupted the ISO to have a virus dood
15:23:42 <ehird> It'll wipe all of AnMaster's valuable files on his laptop.
15:23:44 <ehird> He's had it for years, you know.
15:23:52 <AnMaster> cd is marked as 700 MB, well should fit
15:23:54 <fizzie> Yes, well, a md5sum would detect accidental corruption just as well.
15:24:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, not intentional though
15:24:02 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes... all CDs are the same size...
15:24:08 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't have any on the laptop yet
15:24:21 <ehird> But that's the thing. An MD5 is useless.
15:24:24 <fizzie> Yes, well, for intentional corruption they've obviously changed the checksums too; that's why I said "getting it from the same place".
15:24:30 <ehird> It only detects "this is fucked up man", which happens WHEN YOU BOOT IT.
15:24:34 <AnMaster> ehird, um... CDs used to be 650 MB IIRC?
15:24:34 <ehird> Because they have CRCs in the bootloader thingy.
15:25:02 <ehird> Media typeOptical disc
15:25:03 <ehird> Capacity184 MiB (8 cm)
15:25:05 <ehird> 650-900 MB (12 cm)
15:25:13 <AnMaster> <fizzie> I'm not sure I see the value of a fancy checksum if you're getting the checksum from pretty much the same place as the ISO image itself. <-- I wasn't
15:25:19 <ehird> CD-ROM capacities are normally expressed with binary prefixes, subtracting the space used for error correction data. A standard 120 mm, "700 MB" CD-ROM can hold about 847 MB of data, or 737 MB (703 MiB) with error correction. In comparison, a single-layer DVD-ROM can hold 4.7 GB of error-protected data, more than 6 CD-ROMs.
15:25:21 <AnMaster> the checksum was listed on their website
15:25:33 <ehird> AnMaster: the website is owned by the mirror guys, duh
15:25:39 <ehird> if they push out a change the other guys get it too
15:25:59 <AnMaster> ehird, not the same mirror :P So a bit less risk *in theory* but yeah I would much have preferred a gpg signature
15:26:25 <ehird> Your CD drive sucks.
15:27:55 <fizzie> Well, cdimage.ubuntu.com's dvd images for karmic koala daily-builds have MD5, SHA1 and SHA256 checksums; I guess they're getting there.
15:31:05 <ehird> LONDON — Harry Patch, the last soldier to fight in the trenches of Europe during World War I, died Saturday at the age of 111, his care home in southwest England said.
15:31:06 <ehird> Patch, who fought at the Battle of Passchendaele in 1917, was also Britain's oldest man following the death of fellow veteran Henry Allingham, who was also the world's oldest man, one week ago.
15:31:14 <ehird> the one before him lasted like two weeks
15:33:42 <AnMaster> ehird, ok I think I mostly got suspend working under arch too. Not perfectly but quite a lot better
15:34:00 <ehird> Sure is a lot of work you're having to do there.
15:34:23 <AnMaster> ehird, actually the system is missing from the "whitelist"
15:35:19 <fungot> (http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt)S
15:35:30 <fizzie> ^def source ul (http://git.zem.fi/fungot)S
15:35:36 <fizzie> Might as well use that thing.
15:35:52 <ehird> <AnMaster> NOOOOOOOO! NOT GIT!
15:36:08 <ehird> (Ew, it's gitweb.)
15:36:19 <fizzie> Hey, now, there was a package.
15:38:00 <AnMaster> hm... hibernate-tools seems to work better
15:38:07 <AnMaster> they have some thinkpad workaround
15:44:12 <AnMaster> ehird, ah btw I found out what the sound problem actually was: a permission problem
15:44:21 <AnMaster> user was not in right group, so my own faukt
15:44:40 <AnMaster> solved it by: gpasswd -a anmaster audio
15:49:50 <AnMaster> ehird, hm wireless works sometimes in arch too. a cold reboot often fixes the issue. So that it works means nothing. Needs more testing
15:50:34 <fizzie> Funny, would have suspected Ubuntu to grant audio-group access with the login.defs CONSOLE_GROUPS or some such mechanism for X logins. It doesn't sound the Ubuntu way to have users fiddle with that sort of stuff.
15:50:51 <ehird> He's doing it with Arch.
15:50:59 <fizzie> Ah. Well, that's another thing entirely.
15:51:24 <AnMaster> can't check if it works to mount then
15:51:26 <ehird> As I said, if you want Ubuntu, it's really best just to go with /boot and /.
15:51:49 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean then I don't want ubuntu? I see
15:52:07 <ehird> You could also continue suffering through Arch if you want
15:53:01 <AnMaster> ehird, to allow installing in the livecd env
15:53:14 <ehird> It does install in the LiveCD environment.
15:53:18 <pikhq> ... Seriously, if you're going to do a complex installation (like setting up LVM), use Debian.
15:53:28 <ehird> pikhq: But he's on a _laptop_.
15:53:32 <ehird> With a 160GB drive. Total.
15:53:42 <ehird> He's only partitioning because he wants to encrypt /home.
15:53:49 <ehird> Because he doesn't want to encrypt / for some reason.
15:53:55 <ehird> pikhq: I'm saying that anything but /boot & / is just silly
15:54:56 <AnMaster> ah there we go. lvm installed in tmpfs on livecd
15:55:07 <AnMaster> seems like the livecd does use unionfs or such
15:55:49 <ehird> <AnMaster> I want the smooth, integrated, everything-just-works experience of Ubuntu. Now how do I tweak the installation process?
15:56:22 <pikhq> Note: use Debian if you want Ubuntu's "Just Works"™ but tweakable.
15:56:25 <AnMaster> anyway it all depends on how livecd turns out
15:56:39 <pikhq> Given that that's pretty much what Debian is for desktop usage these days.
15:57:49 <AnMaster> lets see if it can browse the file system on my phone
15:58:23 <ehird> pikhq: Said like someone who's never used Ubuntu.
15:58:26 <ehird> Debian is, really, milse apart.
15:58:32 <ehird> Ubuntu has a _ton_ of tweaks and integration.
15:58:50 <pikhq> ehird: Said like someone who's not used Debian since Ubuntu became popular.
15:59:52 <ehird> I've _only_ used Debian since Ubuntu became popular.
16:00:09 <AnMaster> hm I got the "tap trackpoint to click" working in arch
16:00:10 <ehird> You're highly underestimating the configuration and integration the Ubuntu team does.
16:00:22 <AnMaster> doesn't work out of box and no setting in the mouse thingy for it under ubuntu
16:00:41 <GregorR> Debian is pretty damn tweaked from raw sources, and Ubuntu is pretty damn tweaked from Debian.
16:01:20 <ehird> AnMaster: methinks you're going into ubuntu with the mindset of trying to find something wrong about it so you can quickly dismiss it…
16:01:25 <ehird> at least it appears that way from hear
16:01:33 <ehird> s/hear\nhere/here/
16:01:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I want to see if I will actually gain anything from it first
16:01:47 <GregorR> I here it that way from hear too ;)
16:02:08 <pikhq> ehird: I think we can both agree that he should be using a more tweakable distro if he's going to be tweaking his distro, though. ;)
16:02:29 <ehird> Yes, but I also think that in this case, his tweaks are just making life hard for him within the restraints of his laptop.
16:02:49 <pikhq> Eh, it probably would be nicer to have an encrypted root.
16:02:53 <GregorR> LFS is the only distro worth using.
16:02:57 <GregorR> People who don't use LFS are losers.
16:03:01 <pikhq> I don't think Ubuntu handles *that* gracefully, either, though.
16:03:17 <ehird> pikhq: That's not the thing, though
16:03:23 <ehird> He wants LVM so he can resize /home and /
16:03:28 <ehird> Because the HD is small
16:03:30 <ehird> so he can't anticipate
16:03:40 <ehird> he only wants to separate /home and / so he can only encrypt the former
16:03:52 <ehird> Since LVM is a pain on Ubuntu, I'm saying he should just encrypt /
16:03:56 <ehird> Because it'd be a lot simpler.
16:04:08 <AnMaster> ok found how to browse file system by bluethooth
16:04:23 <pikhq> I'm saying he should just use a different distro. LVM is nice. It should be used everywhere. :P
16:04:48 <ehird> pikhq: If we're being idealistic, partitions for a single OS suck.
16:04:58 <ehird> We should just have a partition per OS, and store objects on it instead of files.
16:05:05 <ehird> And have an orthogonal persistence system.
16:05:10 <ehird> Meanwhile, back in reality.
16:05:37 <pikhq> ehird: If we're being idealistic, OSes should not suck.
16:07:16 <ehird> In an alternate universe:
16:07:21 <ehird> Oh, just a package to emerge.
16:07:23 <ehird> …and a few configuration files.
16:07:26 <ehird> …and a kernel recompilation.
16:08:09 <ehird> Yay, 5 minutes until Windows is downloaded.
16:08:13 <ehird> (↑ Something I never thought I'd say)
16:09:02 <AnMaster> you can set how long it should be inactive for turning of the screen
16:09:10 <AnMaster> you can't drag it below 11 minutes though
16:09:33 <ehird> http://www.codeweavers.com/about/general/press/20090724/ ← Hahahaha. I see they've read http://xkcd.com/605/
16:09:46 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, why 11 minutes in ubuntu
16:09:53 <ehird> It… goes down to 11?
16:09:57 <ehird> It might be a Gnome thing, also.
16:10:05 <ehird> AnMaster: It's a joke.
16:10:34 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, probably they picked 10 full, complete minutes of idleness
16:10:42 <ehird> And then when it hits the 11 minute (after 10 full minutes), it goes off.
16:10:59 <ehird> It's rather arbitrary, but wanting it to go off after 5 minutes or something would be silly, so.
16:11:22 <AnMaster> ehird, why should they prevent users from doing that?
16:11:57 <AnMaster> my *phone* turns off backlight after 10 *seconds* or so
16:11:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Because then the slider bar would be less granular because it would be the same size with bigger range
16:12:05 <ehird> And so 99% of people would suffer.
16:12:09 <ehird> For the needs of a crazy 1%.
16:12:13 <AnMaster> much faster when it displays the "press ... to unlock"
16:12:18 <ehird> Those 1% can either use something else or use gconf-editor.
16:12:48 <ehird> Usability is stripping out everything unneeded or extremely unlikely and then presenting the rest as fluidly and quickly as possible.
16:13:04 <ehird> If you want to abandon a usable interface because you can't set your sleep time to <11 minutes, uhh, feel free.
16:13:13 <ehird> Strange how every critic of Gnome is such a control freak.
16:13:26 <ehird> Yay, Windows 7 RC downloaded.
16:13:32 <AnMaster> ehird, ...? I just dislike dumbed down systems
16:13:36 <ehird> It's not dumbed down.
16:13:45 <ehird> AnMaster: If we allow any amount of minutes. Why not seconds?
16:13:54 <ehird> What if I like my system to go off after precisely 3 minutes 14 seconds?
16:14:05 <ehird> Your response is presumably "no, because that's ridiculous; who needs that?".
16:14:27 <ehird> "I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
16:14:31 <ehird> With a bit of rephrasing it's quite applicable here.
16:14:48 <Deewiant> What if it's "yeah, the slider should have the same granularity as the kernel call that eventually uses the value"
16:15:10 <ehird> Deewiant: Are you arguing that the user interface should be dictated by the internal code?
16:15:20 <ehird> Please, please don't say yes.
16:15:29 <Deewiant> No, by the limits of the underlying system.
16:15:41 <Deewiant> Somewhat the same thing, I guess.
16:15:52 <ehird> It is the same thing.
16:15:54 <Deewiant> And I'm not really arguing it, just presenting a hypothetical.
16:16:04 <ehird> Are you arguing for my point of AnMaster's?
16:16:06 <Deewiant> I'm not sure where I really stand on the matter.
16:16:15 <ehird> Mine is about being less specific than the underlying interface.
16:16:46 <Deewiant> My point is, I guess: why restrict the UI if the code can do more
16:17:10 <ehird> Deewiant: Because usability is ALL ABOUT figuring out the must natural and fluid way to present the realistic operations and optimising heavily for them.
16:17:33 <ehird> That may get you extreme precision to flex your system abs; it doesn't get you a simple, usable, consistent interface vs a mass of sluggish knick-knacks.
16:17:46 <ehird> There are, of course, compromises. I find they rarely matter in practice, and those that do tend to be bugs.
16:19:53 <AnMaster> ehird, same wlan issues on ubuntu after suspending a few times btw...
16:20:02 <ehird> AnMaster: Freaky chipset, I guess.
16:20:05 <ehird> Nothing you can really do.
16:20:35 <oklopol> a slide bar should just be an input hole waiting for a value, you should be able to insert your own gadget in there if you want more precision.
16:20:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there is already one
16:20:47 <oklopol> err, a slide bar should just be the default filler for the hole, that is
16:20:54 <ehird> oklopol: that basically meshes with my OO OS design, yah
16:21:08 <ehird> but it handles it far more elegantly than just making a gigantic slider
16:21:37 <oklopol> ehird: have you seen tangible functional programming or whatever at google talks? i've had very similar ideas, and found some of it rather interesting
16:21:47 <ehird> I think I've heard the general concept
16:22:00 <ehird> I think that Smalltalk is basically close to the perfect model
16:22:34 <pikhq> I am vaguely of the opinion that there needs to be a strongly typed OS.
16:22:57 <ehird> See http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/'s Dana.
16:23:20 <ehird> Strongly-typed, purely functional, dependently typed, FRP programming language & OS.
16:23:26 <AnMaster> ehird, but yeah I might do gnome on arch (as a test)
16:23:42 <pikhq> If it weren't vaporware, then <3.
16:23:44 <oklopol> basically interfaces are just ways to visualize objects, and interaction is done with functions, say a program where you can rotate a pic would be a function from reals to pics to rotated pics, which would be represented as an input box for a real and an input and an output box for function output for those inputs.
16:23:48 <ehird> AnMaster: Ubuntu's Gnome is generally a better Gnome because of the added integration
16:24:06 <oklopol> *and an input box for the pix
16:24:17 <AnMaster> ehird, that is possible. Why not push the patches upstream?
16:24:32 <ehird> AnMaster: because they integrate Gnome with the OS and their own cherry-picked services
16:24:36 <ehird> instead of just with each other
16:24:43 <ehird> but Gnome is really about the total-system integration
16:24:47 <ehird> yes, a lot could be pushed upstream
16:25:02 <ehird> oklopol: method rotate: on BitmapImage, give it a number of any kind
16:25:07 <pikhq> ehird: It would also be totally awesome to have an arrow-and-monad-based CLI.
16:25:29 <ehird> you could e.g. tell BitmapEditor to add a rotate button to the toolbar
16:25:30 <pikhq> Of course, designing something like that is actual work.
16:25:36 <ehird> it's all about views on objects
16:25:42 <ehird> you can manipulate objects, and have views on them
16:25:51 <ehird> which are ways of visualising and manipulating the object
16:25:57 <ehird> no programs, just views and methods aggregated from everywhere
16:27:27 <ehird> pretty much the platonic ideal of what an OS should be, implemented
16:27:45 <pikhq> Sounds like KDE on crack.
16:27:56 <ehird> representing and changing arbitrary things in any way
16:28:22 <AnMaster> http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/HDAPS#How_to_install_the_driver <-- aha
16:28:28 <pikhq> ehird: Well, since that's basically what KDE does (sort-of) for its GUI code.
16:28:35 <oklopol> ehird: tfp does that, and adds automatic interface composition to function composition
16:28:37 <AnMaster> ehird, please take a look at that section
16:28:42 <pikhq> But, of course, they don't touch the underlying system aside from abstraction layers.
16:28:44 <AnMaster> then tell me what will be easiest
16:28:45 <ehird> oklopol: automatic interface composition?
16:28:48 <oklopol> because it's purely functional
16:28:49 <AnMaster> doing that under arch or ubuntu
16:28:54 <ehird> foo : thingthatCanRotate -> thingthatCanFly ->
16:28:57 <AnMaster> because it doesn't work under ubuntu either
16:28:57 <ehird> thingthatcanrotateandfly?
16:29:25 <oklopol> ehird: you can have a rotator and a scaler, and you can fuse ones output to the other's input to have a component that does both
16:29:49 <ehird> AnMaster: ubuntuforums.org
16:29:51 <ehird> search the howto section
16:29:53 <oklopol> you should check out the talk, it has interesting ideas
16:29:54 <ehird> there'll be an easy way
16:30:01 <ehird> oklopol: well right, that's trivial
16:30:17 <oklopol> ehird: trivial maybe, but your ideal smalltalk model doesn't do it
16:30:19 <ehird> oklopol: use a rotator view on a BitmapImage
16:30:26 <ehird> oklopol: then use a scaler view on the rotator's image
16:30:53 <ehird> you could easily abstract it
16:31:10 <ehird> I just think the object analogy works better for an OS
16:31:21 <oklopol> i guess the point is just to have outputs and inputs be objects you can actually move around however you want.
16:31:34 <ehird> oklopol: but yeah, you the essential components are objects, their methods, and views
16:31:46 <ehird> where the views are what let you interact, compose etc the objects and act on their methods
16:32:06 <pikhq> ehird: Just make it be strongly typed and we're good. :P
16:32:13 <oklopol> and yes, object analogies work better for oses, this was more of an application/ui designer stuff; or maybe it's just the fact the developers were haskellers
16:32:17 <ehird> pikhq: i'm not sure
16:32:25 <ehird> pikhq: typeclasses burden the system's fluidity
16:32:35 <ehird> you should be able to make up new types of images on the go and piece together things in unexpected ways
16:32:43 <ehird> instead of the more rigid typeclass system
16:32:59 <ehird> pikhq: you could, of course, do things like implement methods in Haskell
16:33:12 <ehird> and entire subsystems
16:33:26 <ehird> but i think the top-level object system is more liberating with a duck-OO system
16:33:33 * pikhq is more-or-less imagining using typeclasses to make an OS provably secure via a typechecker
16:34:18 <AnMaster> bash: /sbin/iwconfig: Input/output error
16:34:25 <AnMaster> file says it doesn't exist either
16:34:38 <pikhq> I've had this VM for a few *days* and it's got viruses.
16:35:03 <pikhq> And it's ran for maybe a few hours.
16:36:35 <oklopol> i've used windows all my life, and i've had one virus
16:37:01 <oklopol> which was completely my own fault
16:37:07 <pikhq> ... It... Came in the service pack?
16:37:12 <oklopol> i don't really use protection
16:37:14 <pikhq> ... Infecting notepad.exe?
16:37:33 <ehird> oklopol: don't use protection ay?
16:38:04 <oklopol> for sex, i make my partners use protection; for computers, that's kinda too much work.
16:38:34 <oklopol> anyway, i guess i have some virus protection now
16:38:38 <oklopol> not that i ever let it actually run
16:39:01 <oklopol> maybe it does some checking transparently, i don't really have the faintest
16:39:37 <ehird> haha the safari 4.0.2 update is 40.2MB
16:41:29 <augur> needs more naked and less piano.
16:41:34 <augur> also, you should play some philip glass.
16:42:02 <augur> philip glass is a composer.
16:42:16 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=philip+glass&search_type=&aq=f
16:42:55 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNiOqa1nWgI&feature=fvst << SO true
16:43:22 <augur> because its pretty!
16:43:53 <augur> omg that video is so true
16:44:24 <AnMaster> oh fun... ubuntu's network manager crashed even
16:44:29 <oklopol> listened to 5 seconds of one of his songs, and that.
16:44:41 <oklopol> happened to be the same thing
16:45:22 <AnMaster> hm seems older wpa_supplicant might work
16:47:01 <oklopol> 1. that's one of the most used progressions in all western music
16:47:10 <augur> its literally ALL of philip glass in one video
16:47:29 <oklopol> but the he doesn't know names of chord
16:49:40 <augur> torley is a silly man :D
16:50:21 <oklopol> anyway, he is correct in that glass seems to be kinda trivial music
16:50:34 <augur> well the thing about glass's music is not that its complex so much
16:50:35 <ehird> ambient is not trivial
16:50:51 <augur> its that its got a lot of structure
16:51:55 <augur> if the notes of mozart's piano pieces are a random walk, then the notes of philip glass's piano pieces are a fractal
16:52:33 <oklopol> all i'm saying is that kinda stuff is trivial to compose
16:52:41 <augur> its like good trance, if you look at a small interval, and then look later at another interval of the same size, youll see a lot of similarity. its only when you pull out that you see the structure
16:52:55 <augur> oklopol, maybe it is. but it doesnt seem to be.
16:53:19 <augur> i mean, while torley gets a lot of the glassian style correct, at a low level, the 3-to-20 note level, on a larger scale he fails
16:54:05 <ehird> only when you pull out ey
16:54:08 <ehird> ONLY WHEN YOU PULL OUT
16:54:27 <augur> i think philip glass's style is less about the complexities of the initial writing of the music, so much as the complexities of making it all work together locally and globally
16:54:33 <augur> its like a canon, i think
16:54:34 <ehird> i wonder, if you don't use virus protection, is pulling out cancelling the bogus install process?
16:54:40 <augur> the motif of a canon isnt necessarily complicated
16:54:47 <augur> nor are the principles of canon construction
16:55:03 <augur> and yet canons are still amazingly difficult to do right
16:55:22 <augur> i suspect that canons are probably some of the easiest music to compose with a computer, tho
16:55:42 <augur> because its mostly just constraint programming
16:56:09 <augur> who was it that was all "wee computer music! :D"?
16:56:31 <oklopol> augur: the details of the chords are interesting. melody is trivial, and chord progressions are basically copy pasted from all pop ever made.
16:56:41 <oklopol> is my opinion on first listening
16:56:42 <ehird> http://codu.org/algorhythms/
16:56:57 <augur> oklopol: its not just chord progressions tho
16:57:05 <oklopol> by details of the chords i mean the arpeggios
16:57:14 <augur> the thing about glass's music is that its chord progression progressions
16:57:20 <augur> and chord progression progression progressions
16:57:39 <oklopol> you mean the whole structure? i'm not especially interested in those, so yeah i maybe not be the best judge either, but didn't seem special in any way.
16:58:01 <augur> you have to listen to actual philip glass music tho
16:58:05 <augur> not just torley's thing
16:58:12 <oklopol> i mostly do short riffs, that's why i like metal.
16:58:20 <augur> its a lot like japanese music as well
16:58:30 <augur> in principle, anyway
16:58:46 <oklopol> i wasn't listening to torley
16:58:46 <augur> traditional japanese music isnt about the complexity of the pieces or the local complexity of the notes
16:58:53 <augur> oklopol: well then!
16:58:59 <augur> GregorR: do you do canons?
16:59:36 <pikhq> Well, virus is t3h fixéd. Just pulled notepad.exe from the Windows ISO...
17:00:41 <GregorR> augur: My algorhythms have no concept of "styles" of music.
17:00:51 <augur> you should try to write a canon writing program
17:01:25 <augur> also, theyre awesomely algorithmic
17:02:05 <oklopol> i have no idea what canons are
17:02:29 <oklopol> unless you mean the thing where the a melody is played on top of itself
17:02:39 <oklopol> that's what it meant when i sang in a choir.
17:02:43 <augur> its not simply a melody on top of itself
17:02:52 <ehird> there should be a satanist choir
17:02:55 <augur> thats a fugue, of sorts.
17:03:00 <augur> a canon is like a fugue on speed
17:03:05 <augur> in canons, you have a motif
17:03:12 <ehird> can't go wrong with speed
17:03:16 <augur> that gets duplicated multiply, usually.
17:03:26 <augur> you play it once normally
17:03:35 <augur> then play it again, maybe offset in time
17:03:44 <ehird> argh i can't spawn new processes
17:03:57 <augur> yes, like you start playing a few notes later relative to the first instance
17:03:59 <ehird> how do you kill something if you can't spawn a process? AnMaster?
17:04:03 <augur> like the row-row-row-your-boat fugue
17:04:06 <ehird> i can spawn a shell
17:04:13 <oklopol> augur: original still playing you mean?
17:04:19 <ehird> ps doesn't terminate
17:04:25 <oklopol> right, then it's not weird.
17:04:28 <augur> or you offset it in pitch, so you play it twice at different pitches
17:04:35 <augur> or you play it upside down
17:04:48 <augur> so where the notes transition up in the original, they transition down in the copy
17:04:50 <oklopol> err, you mean a chromatic transposition or in scale?
17:04:58 <augur> uh.. either! i dont know
17:05:02 <augur> or you play it backwards
17:05:08 <augur> or you play it twice speed
17:05:23 <augur> or you combine these together
17:05:28 <augur> and you do it multiple times
17:05:55 <augur> so the motif is being played three, four, five times upside down backwards twice as fast, etc etc
17:06:25 <augur> and because of the combinations, you end up getting chords, usually
17:06:44 <augur> so you ALSO strive to achieve chord progressions that are, by themselves, quite elegant and beautiful
17:06:48 <oklopol> my process is often similar to that, after which i find a local optimum by moving the individual notes a bit, while keeping some local structure consistent
17:06:59 <augur> so that the different instances of the motif, by themselves, are beautiful
17:07:13 <augur> as are the combination of them taken as a whole
17:07:37 <augur> Bach is probably the most famous canonier
17:07:57 <augur> fugues tho, afaik, are usually simple canons with a time offset
17:08:46 <augur> and ofcourse you can have secondary motifs
17:08:50 <augur> and tertiary motifs
17:09:30 <augur> the trick to writing canons and fugues is having a single motif that sounds good multiple ways
17:09:36 <augur> and which also combines with itself elegantly
17:10:25 <augur> REALLY good fugues, in my opinion, are structured so that the single motif, plus its permutations, combine in such a way that the combination itself has complex structure that isn't obvious form just the motif
17:11:06 <augur> e.g. maybe there's a crescendo halfway through the piece, but no motif has a crescendo
17:12:10 <oklopol> i'm only interested in rhythm and pitch, but i get it.
17:12:37 <oklopol> GregorR: interesting local structures in these algorhythms or yours
17:13:02 <augur> this is why i think that canons are perfect for an algorithmic treatment
17:13:29 -!- jix has quit ("Lost terminal").
17:13:43 <augur> the motifs have to be good by themselves
17:13:43 <oklopol> there was one pretty interesting thing in that one song of yours, but i couldn't quite make the details out from your playing, i think it was number 10, that thing where you bang the piano like an elephant.
17:13:54 <augur> and the chord progressions their combination produces also has to be good
17:14:02 <oklopol> but you know, an elephant that knows how to play
17:14:06 <augur> and making it all fit is IDEAL for a constraint programming system
17:14:42 <oklopol> augur: no disagreement there
17:15:43 <augur> canons and fugues themselves have relative simply underlying principles
17:15:53 <ehird> Deewiant: yes, but I didn't know the process ID
17:15:55 <augur> motif + variations
17:16:03 <augur> much like philip glass's music
17:16:15 <augur> oh, oklopol, i left out some versions
17:16:17 <oklopol> GregorR: do you publish score?
17:16:20 <Deewiant> ehird: for i in $(seq 1 65535); do kill -9 $i; done
17:16:36 <ehird> Deewiant: i did that by holding down the power button
17:16:40 <augur> in canons sometimes youll get the motif shifting around by some notes here or there
17:16:47 <augur> and the shifts of the motif itself play out the motif
17:17:02 <Deewiant> ehird: With a bit of luck the pid of the target process is lower than the pid of your shell
17:17:03 * ehird waits for disk to settle down then restarts VM
17:17:11 <oklopol> because of self-symmetries
17:17:19 <ehird> Deewiant: yes but otoh all my other shit was below.
17:17:20 <Deewiant> And nothing else important has a pid lower than your shell
17:17:24 <augur> so that the motif might be a progression of notes 1234
17:17:44 <augur> and then you play it again, but shifting the first note of the motif to start at the second note
17:17:49 <Deewiant> ehird: Run important stuff as root so that you don't kill them accidentally!
17:17:56 <ehird> augur: er it's 2341
17:18:21 <oklopol> ehird: transposition, not rotation, methinkg
17:18:39 <augur> or if it were more complex, 12324, then 23435, then 34546, then 23435, then 45657
17:18:50 <augur> where the first note of each of the instances itself plays out the motif
17:18:51 <GregorR> oklopol: http://codu.org/music/auto/Onerously%20Uptight%20Toccata%20Piano%20Arr.pdf
17:19:27 <augur> so its a progression of instances of the motif
17:19:35 <augur> and the progression itself plays the motif
17:19:41 <GregorR> http://codu.org/music/auto/Onerously%20Uptight%20Toccata.{mid,mp3,ogg} since that one isn't on the Algorhythms site.
17:19:46 <augur> or maybe it plays a permutation of the motif
17:19:49 <oklopol> actually i can make out the melody now
17:19:52 <ehird> GregorR: he means op.10
17:20:18 <augur> ehird: does that make sense?
17:20:26 <ehird> i didn't pay attention
17:20:37 -!- jix has joined.
17:20:57 <ehird> you still haven't told me where note 5 comes from
17:21:04 <ehird> 1234 → 2345; what's 5
17:21:19 <augur> so you have your motif
17:21:19 <oklopol> GregorR: what ehird said, when you come back.
17:21:30 <augur> M = 12324, lets say
17:21:47 <augur> M[i] is the i'th note of the motif
17:22:24 <oklopol> right, so not transposition
17:22:31 <augur> well it IS transposition
17:22:34 <augur> its just complicated
17:22:50 <oklopol> do we consider the motif an infinite repetition of the same thing
17:22:52 <augur> the i'th copy of the motif is transposed by M[i]
17:23:03 <augur> so the 0th copy of the motif is 12324, say
17:23:16 <augur> so its not transposed at all
17:23:27 <augur> the 1th copy is 23435
17:23:54 <oklopol> and we're talking chromatic transpositions? i don't think those were allowed quite that directly when bach composed
17:24:16 <oklopol> only as structure, atonality is a newer concept
17:24:44 -!- augur_ has joined.
17:25:01 <augur_> sorry, storm, power outages, you know.
17:25:07 <augur_> anyway, so the first copy is 23435
17:25:19 <ehird> 17:23 oklopol: and we're talking chromatic transpositions? i don't think those were allowed quite that directly when bach composed
17:25:20 <ehird> 17:24 oklopol: only as structure, atonality is a newer concept
17:25:30 <augur_> because the second note of the motif is 2. so you start the motif at 2, but follow the same progressions
17:25:45 <augur_> so the motive is transposed up one note
17:25:56 <pikhq> GregorR: What, exactly, does your libc consist of?
17:26:05 <ehird> augur_: *motif, not motive
17:26:07 <augur_> then the third copy starts at the third note of the motif
17:26:09 <oklopol> GregorR: the thing starting from 6:34 has the "*.***.*.*.*.*." rhythm in the beginning, i like it.
17:27:46 <oklopol> augur: transposed withing used non-chromatic scale that is?
17:29:20 <oklopol> that is, if the motif is say 02357230, would its transposition one up be 13468341 or 23578352
17:29:33 <AnMaster> ehird, is there any way to try out compiz on the live cd?
17:29:41 <ehird> AnMaster: go into appearances preferences
17:29:51 <ehird> (Extra makes resizing warble and shit; just looks terrible)
17:29:54 <oklopol> a chromatic transposition means you need to make sure every note happens to drop on the same scale
17:29:57 <ehird> AnMaster: you're using compiz
17:30:02 <oklopol> assuming we're using some western scale underneath
17:30:10 <ehird> AnMaster: e.g. minimizing/maximizing/window shadows
17:30:14 <AnMaster> ehird, well I want to see rotating 3D cube desktop
17:30:28 <ehird> AnMaster: it is, but now i want to stab yo.
17:30:35 <ehird> you who always hates bling :)
17:30:46 <ehird> AnMaster: i think you need to install a plugin and shit
17:30:48 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I do. But I want to see how bad it looks
17:30:55 <ehird> not really worth it
17:31:10 * pikhq , intrigued, wgets Cygwin to play with
17:31:30 <ehird> pikhq: run cygwin under wine
17:31:33 <ehird> then run wine under cygwin
17:31:36 <ehird> repeat until you die
17:31:38 <pikhq> ... Cygwin source code.
17:31:52 <ehird> (of alcohol poisoning?)
17:32:25 <ehird> alcohol poisoning, n. Using so many Windows programs under WINE that you have all the disadvantages of a Windows desktop, but on Linux.
17:33:14 * pikhq intends to get CygwinELF.
17:33:32 <augur_> oklopol: i have no idea precisely how the scales work
17:33:37 <oklopol> augur: anyway, whether glass is crap or not, it's definitely pretty much the opposite of what i enjoy playing.
17:33:49 <ehird> pikhq: cygwin isn't like
17:33:56 <ehird> so you'll still have to recompile
17:34:06 <ehird> also linux syscalls
17:34:12 <pikhq> ehird: I'm getting the source tarball.
17:34:15 <oklopol> augur: basically you have the octave split in 12 equal steps, and there are certain subsets of those that are called scales
17:34:17 <ehird> I mean the prorgams
17:34:26 <oklopol> in bach's day, you always stayed withing the scale afaik
17:34:26 <augur_> it'd be interesting to try and generate transpose canons using a CFG
17:34:33 <pikhq> And, like, CygwinELF would be, like, WinELF'd Cygwin.
17:34:33 <oklopol> atonality means using all 12
17:34:41 <ehird> pikhq: i think cygwin might do things like mess around with internal PE stuff
17:34:44 <ehird> so it might not work
17:34:50 <ehird> (Windows still uses PE, right?)
17:34:55 <pikhq> ehird: Thus why I'm getting the source tarball to look at.
17:35:00 <pikhq> And yes, it does still use PE.
17:35:01 <augur_> oklopol: one of bach's canons never ends, technically
17:35:46 <ehird> It's updating while installing.
17:35:50 <ehird> Less rebootifying.
17:35:55 <augur_> the whole canon is a motif that ends on the same note it began, but one octave higher
17:35:59 <oklopol> augur: major is 024579(11)(12), minor is 02357(8|9)(10|11)(12), | because there are multiple kinds of minors.
17:36:08 <augur_> and traditionally its looped, getting higher and higher and higher
17:36:11 <oklopol> you can try that out on the chromatic scale starting from any note
17:36:18 -!- jix_ has joined.
17:36:59 <augur_> check out bach's Musical Offering, and Well Tempered Clavier
17:37:06 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
17:37:17 <ehird> Setup is updating registry settings
17:37:18 <augur_> oh, and then there are versions of the motif where extra notes are added
17:37:21 <augur_> or some notes are removed
17:37:36 <augur_> basically any way you can alter the motif
17:39:06 <pikhq> Looks like all cygwin process spawning goes through the spawn function.
17:39:36 <AnMaster> ehird, it seems http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Tp_smapi is the key
17:40:11 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:40:28 <pikhq> Which, though very complex, doesn't seem to be doing anything really funky with the executable.
17:40:40 <pikhq> Just a lot of Windows API junk.
17:41:42 -!- jix_ has quit ("leaving").
17:41:55 -!- jix has joined.
17:46:14 <pikhq> GregorR: So, all Cygwin program execution eventually goes through spawn_guts.
17:46:28 <pikhq> GregorR: This is where the processes are actually created and loaded.
17:47:51 <pikhq> In principle, you could just add another code path that loads ELF executables via elfloader rather than the Win32 process loader.
17:48:07 <pikhq> This would be tricky but entirely feasible.
17:48:57 <augur_> i think you could write a transpose canon generator
17:49:04 <augur_> that works using a CFG, essentially
17:49:06 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
17:49:17 <augur> or something roughly like a CFG
17:50:04 <augur> e.g. M = 1 2 3 2 4 | 1*M 2*M 3*M 2*M 4*M
17:50:58 <oklopol> so basically "1 2 3 2 4" * 12^n :P
17:51:19 <augur> because you dont have to go the same depth for each M on the right hand side
17:51:24 <oklopol> well not exactly, that was actually something you didn't answer
17:51:27 <augur> maybe the first one is just 1 2 3 2 4
17:51:46 <augur> but the second is 1 2 3 2 4 2 3 4 3 5 3 4 5 4 6 2 3 4 3 5 4 5 6 5 7
17:51:58 <augur> so its M^2, lets call it
17:52:05 <augur> and maybe the third is M^3
17:52:07 <augur> and the fourth is M^2
17:52:11 <augur> and the fifth is M^4
17:52:18 <augur> so the depth ITSELF is the motif!
17:53:29 <AnMaster> ehird, getting the disk protection to work was easier in arch once I knew where to look. While it is known broken in ubuntu
17:53:43 <ehird> You know that I don't care how much you hate Ubuntu, right?
17:54:14 <AnMaster> ehird, but it also has downsides. Like arch does too
17:54:26 <AnMaster> I'm atm trying to figure out if it is easier to fix the issues in arch now or not
17:54:45 <AnMaster> due to the issue with network in ubuntu too I don't think I would gain much
17:55:25 <ehird> Long-term you would; i.e. integrated desktop environment.
17:56:04 <ehird> Hey, "ls" works in PowerShell. Neat.
17:56:40 <ehird> Windows 7 is doubleplusgood so far.
17:57:58 <oklopol> augur: true, torley sucks at structure
17:58:02 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, if you want good fonts, go into Appearance settings, Fonts, Advanced, RGB, Slight, and DPI = 129 dpi
17:58:49 <oklopol> but i'm sure something like a 1212343 would fool you into thinking it's a rich structure (one of the basic western song structures)
17:59:24 <ehird> AnMaster: might take a minute or two to get used to but i'm sure you'll see the light.
18:00:02 * AnMaster looks at hdaps... not making sense
18:00:13 <augur> i need a way to output sound from ruby :|
18:00:21 <ehird> augur: bloopsaphone, bitch!
18:00:25 <oklopol> 1 = verse, 2 = some kinda build-up, 3 = "chorus", 4 = something interesting and surprising
18:00:33 <augur> or to throw numbers into a midi thing
18:00:33 <ehird> Windows 7's taskbar > OS X Dock
18:00:40 <ehird> if only this thing were built on top of posix
18:00:47 <AnMaster> ehird, again X under ubuntu guessed on 128 dpi
18:00:58 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah, but 129 is slightly better :P
18:01:05 <AnMaster> atm I'm trying to make sense of hdaps
18:01:30 <ehird> if you entered it with the dot into the font panel it'd round up anyway
18:01:33 <ehird> Deewiant: ppi calculator
18:01:52 <ehird> (which gets all the other displays I tested in it right, so)
18:02:25 <oklopol> also torley doesn't get the local structures at all correct, all he does is know a few chord progressions and a few trivial arpeggios
18:02:38 <ehird> you're a trivial arpeggio oklopol
18:03:04 <oklopol> glass' progressions don't seem to be that basic
18:03:07 <ehird> Deewiant: sheesh, even windows defaults to a higher dpi than your display!
18:03:11 <ehird> also X11, which is 80sware
18:03:12 <oklopol> but dunno, i'm more of a melody dude
18:03:30 * ehird watches his VM window spastically resize more than once a second
18:03:31 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
18:03:36 <ehird> I think those drivers were bad.
18:03:53 <ehird> Deewiant: the default.
18:04:23 <ehird> yay, the drivers appear to work now
18:04:28 <ehird> windows 7 startup sound is nice
18:04:50 * ehird turns on airy aero
18:05:01 -!- FireFly has joined.
18:05:50 <augur> whats bloopsaphone
18:06:08 <augur> im on the github now
18:06:59 <augur> hm. ill have to figure out how to calculate notes from numbers D:
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18:11:00 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:12:30 <augur_> http://pastie.org/558757 play this
18:17:00 <augur_> its the 12324 recursively generated to a depth determined by the motif itself
18:17:03 <oklopol> the numbers are notes on what scale?
18:17:13 <augur_> any scale of your choosing
18:19:02 <GregorR> oklopol: 'fraid not ... I could whip one up if desired ... I compose on the piano, then hypothetically write the score, but by the time I'm partway through writing it I hate what I've written to much and abandon the notion.
18:20:38 <oklopol> anyway, i can in fact hear what you're doing there, i remembered incorrectly dat. not that i wouldn't like seeing the score anyway
18:22:30 <oklopol> augur_: sounds pretty crappy on a minor scale :P
18:22:45 <augur_> the motif is shit, so..
18:22:47 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
18:24:18 <oklopol> of course if you listen to it as a 5/4 melody, you'll hear... well, how it was generated
18:24:49 <oklopol> as a 4/4 melody, it does do interesting stuff, but only until the progression in 5/4 changes differently than a 4/4 should've.
18:25:44 <oklopol> i've done some experimental work on playing a 15 note melody multiple times while leftie plays 4/4
18:26:03 <augur> oklopol: please to record
18:26:04 <oklopol> so that this transposes the whole thing
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18:26:16 -!- puzzlet has joined.
18:26:16 <oklopol> well not transposes, but it makes it fit the chord progression
18:26:30 <oklopol> well i can record it the same way i recorded the last, only now i have my clothes on.
18:26:39 <oklopol> also need to go to the shoppe first
18:27:19 <ehird> http://www.takimag.com/article/is_obamania_over/ ;; obama strongly supports rainbows; pedobear
18:32:33 <ehird> I wonder why my Windows 7 VM is faster than the host at doing things.
18:41:26 <GregorR> http://www.takimag.com/images/gallery/BHORainbowBear2_med.jpg This is almost too hilarious for words :P
18:45:19 <augur> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
18:45:59 <ehird> GregorR: See above, where I linked it :P
18:46:03 <ehird> I wonder how it got there
18:46:10 <ehird> The journalist is a boring old... curmudgeon from the looks of it.
18:46:18 <ehird> Hax0red? Seriously didn't know?
18:46:21 <ehird> Is the coolest old person ever?
18:46:27 <GregorR> Yeah, Idonno, it's just too hilarious for words :P
18:46:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:46:42 <ehird> Obama's platform consisted of hope, change, rainbows and child rape.
18:46:45 -!- augur has joined.
18:47:00 <ehird> augur: you missed the child rape
18:47:15 <augur> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wiki.Picture_by_Drawing_Machine_2.jpg
18:47:17 <ehird> 18:46 augur has left IRC (Remote closed the connection)
18:47:20 <ehird> 18:46 augur has joined (n=augur@c-71-196-114-50.hsd1.fl.comcast.net)
18:47:47 <ehird> augur: that image looks distinctly non-free.
18:48:14 <augur> distinctly non-free?
18:48:23 <ehird> This work of art is distributed under the Free Art license. You are free to redistribute it and/or modify it according to terms of this license. ArtLibre.org
18:48:27 <ehird> All images belong to Desmond Paul Henry's estate of which I, Elaine O'Hanrahan, am an executrice.
18:48:37 <ehird> ((executrice is an obnoxious word))
18:48:56 <augur> have you looked at generative music theory?
18:49:14 <augur> theres been a fair amount of research into it
18:49:23 <augur> lots of GM theory is just formal language theory
18:49:25 <augur> with musical notes.
18:49:28 <augur> instead of symbols.
18:49:31 <ehird> TRUE MOGULS THAT FLY /
18:49:36 <augur> Lerdahl, F. and R. Jackendoff. 1982. A generative theory of tonal music. Cambridge, Mass: MIT Press.
18:49:42 <ehird> TRUE MOGULS THAT DIE /
18:49:43 <augur> both Lerdal and Jackendoff are linguists
18:50:02 <ehird> Have I mentioned that I'm basically on crack?
18:50:05 <augur> or are you a mugal?
18:50:12 <augur> ehird, we couldve guessed
18:50:22 <ehird> You could have sexed
18:50:27 <ehird> BUT THE FLOR EVAPORATED
18:50:45 <ehird> \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ un warp
18:51:02 <ehird> Locale and the debts.
18:51:04 <augur> but thats faster than the fastest warp factor!
18:51:04 <ehird> Locale and the debts.
18:51:09 <ehird> Debts and the locale.
18:51:13 <ehird> Locale debts are in the debt locale
18:51:24 <ehird> BEACUSE OF NIGEL UFCKING TUFNEL, SPACE PIRATE
18:51:51 <augur> http://gigapedia.com/items/199498/composing-music-with-computers--music-technology-
18:51:52 <ehird> baited breath??? MORE LIKE bAIT YOUR DEATH
18:51:55 <ehird> BE EXTREME WITH EXTREMENESS
18:51:59 <ehird> EXTREME 100% EXTREME
18:52:25 <augur> i used that pun the other day :o
18:52:32 <ehird> them's the rules by which THEM'S THE DROOLS
18:52:37 <ehird> BY DROOLS I MEAN DROOLERS
18:52:43 <ehird> WHICH IS THE RULERS
18:53:58 <ehird> http://www.withinwindows.com/2009/07/16/downloading-another-browser-in-e-without-a-browser-in-3-steps/ ← windows 7 doesn't actually lack ie
18:57:20 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:01:28 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:05:10 <oerjan> that new language on the wiki just rolls off the tongue, practically
19:07:48 * oerjan is not immensely convinced of its esotericity
19:08:45 <Slereah> Well, with a name like that, it has to be!
19:08:51 <Slereah> Who would use such a thing
19:09:24 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
19:11:49 <oerjan> I would make a comment on the talk page, but the evil body snatching gnomes inside my body appear to veto it.
19:11:54 <GregorR> Poochiewuddledumpling-Boobledarling looks ... well, entirely based on assembly ...
19:11:55 -!- oklopol has joined.
19:12:02 <GregorR> Like, to the point that it's just a form of assembly.
19:12:12 <ehird> BUT ASSEMBLY IS HARD HURRRRRRRRRRRRRR
19:12:27 <oklopol> had to move the computer to record, but i have a snippet now
19:12:38 <oklopol> forgot there was no battery in
19:13:07 <oklopol> the piece is so slow it'sh
19:16:27 <oerjan> indeed he disappeared 15 minutes ago
19:17:41 <oklopol> although i guess i can paste this one if pasted the last one
19:17:45 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/pianovids/bah.wmv
19:17:54 <oklopol> although it's significantly worse played
19:17:58 -!- augur has joined.
19:18:11 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/pianovids/bah.wmv
19:19:14 <oklopol> augur: left hand is completely out of sync, i'm still getting used to recording myself; but right hand melody plays the same thing three times, but it lasts for 15 ticks, so it mixes interestingly with leftie
19:19:52 <oklopol> my hands tend to freeze up when i know i'm being watched
19:19:56 <oklopol> it's why i'm not a surgeon
19:20:47 <oklopol> also that song is longer, but most of it isn't interesting in any mathematical sense
19:20:47 <augur> oklopol what is this
19:20:49 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:20:53 <oklopol> didn't you ask me to record
19:21:01 -!- puzzlet has joined.
19:22:19 <oklopol> 20:25 oklopol: i've done some experimental work on playing a 15 note melody multiple times while leftie plays 4/4
19:22:19 <oklopol> 20:26 augur: oklopol: please to record
19:22:20 <augur> ehird: right but thats that got to do with the video? XP
19:22:37 <oklopol> i was in a hurry to go to the shop, must have misinterpreted that
19:22:59 <ehird> oklopol: pfft, you turned off the camera without showing heavily-compressed, darkened chest
19:23:03 <ehird> what a waste of seconds!
19:23:14 <ehird> augur: watching not recommended
19:23:25 <ehird> oklopol: yeah why'd you just have to give us your penis
19:23:31 <ehird> i mean sheesh some of us prefer the other parts too
19:23:38 <ehird> (at this point, augur downloads 15 copies)
19:23:43 <ehird> (to 15 drives in 15 countries)
19:24:12 <oklopol> augur: you can play the 12324 thing on some midi prog
19:24:45 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:26:39 <ehird> "The default setting for User Account Control in Windows 7 has been criticized for allowing untrusted software to be launched with elevated privileges by exploiting a trusted application.[38] Microsoft's Windows kernel engineer Mark Russinovich acknowledged the problem, but noted that there are other vulnerabilities that do not rely on the new setting.[39]"
19:26:41 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:26:44 <ehird> Windows: It's okay, it's broken in other ways too.
19:26:50 <ehird> ais523: [[The default setting for User Account Control in Windows 7 has been criticized for allowing untrusted software to be launched with elevated privileges by exploiting a trusted application.[38] Microsoft's Windows kernel engineer Mark Russinovich acknowledged the problem, but noted that there are other vulnerabilities that do not rely on the new setting.[39]]]
19:27:10 <AnMaster> ehird, link to that "ubuntu on encrypted" thingy?
19:27:23 <ehird> AnMaster: google.com; it involves having a running ubuntu system though
19:27:31 <ehird> no way to do it with the regular installer
19:27:39 <ais523> ehird: is that the now-fixed bug where you didn't need a UAC prompt to turn UAC prompts off?
19:28:07 <ehird> ais523: dunno; the funny bit is the reaction
19:29:10 <ais523> wow, I just got spam in Cyrillic
19:29:19 <ais523> first Cyrillic spam I've seen, I'm guessing Russian
19:29:22 * ais523 wonders whether to translate it
19:30:42 * ais523 wonders how accurately you could regex to match oklo nicks, but exclude non-oklo nicks
19:31:01 <oklopol> augur did something like that once
19:31:12 <ais523> nah, because it doesn't always have an l
19:31:17 <ais523> and certain letters never seem to be used
19:31:26 <ehird> it's always oklo something
19:31:28 <ais523> ehird: I remember okofok in here a while back
19:31:48 <ehird> oklopol: confirm/deny
19:32:01 <oklopol> umm oklofok is one of my usual nicks.
19:32:21 <oklopol> might even be my second most used.
19:32:22 <ehird> ais523 thinks you've been it
19:32:39 <oklopol> yes okofok is possible, but not what i'd usually go for
19:33:07 <ais523> we also had an okopol here ages ago, but it turned out it was because oerjan had stolen the l
19:33:13 <ais523> or possibly, okopol lost the l, and oerjan found it
19:33:30 <oklopol> ais523: http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/pianovids/bah.wmv maybe you're interested, the right hand melody plays a 15 note melody on top of 4/4 on the leftie, while trying to fit the chord progression as it becomes offset
19:33:36 <ehird> i wonder if i'm a bad person for liking windows 7
19:33:50 <oklopol> recorded for augur, but misunderstood, he actually wanted me to record some random crap
19:34:03 <ais523> when Vista came out, I was pretty sure it was the best version of Windows ever
19:34:08 <ehird> ais523: is it better if i dislike the internals but think the UI is great?
19:34:11 <ehird> 'cause that's my position
19:34:18 <ais523> ehird: but they mostly stole the UI from Mac OS X
19:34:25 <ais523> so that's fine, really
19:34:26 <ehird> ais523: but it's *better* in quite a few ways
19:34:27 <oerjan> Are you accusing me of stealing? That's outrageous! Besides, you cannot prove it, I destroyed all the evidence.
19:34:37 <ehird> for instance, the new task bar is better than the dock
19:34:47 <oklopol> oerjan: logs are foreverly.
19:34:50 <ehird> it isn't centered by default, so applications stay in the same place
19:34:53 <ehird> instead of jumping around all the time
19:35:02 <ehird> and it has an expose-like but more localised and less obnoxious to switch windows in apps
19:35:06 <oerjan> oklopol: that's what we want you to think
19:35:06 <ehird> instead of just focusing all of 'em like os x
19:35:25 <ais523> the thing that gets me about the Win7 taskbar is it looks really useful for people who don't run too many differnet applications and easily forget what they have running
19:35:39 <ais523> but considerably worse for people who run loads of different applications and know what they're running at any given time
19:35:51 <ehird> ais523: any windows taskbar is totally unusable with how much stuff i have open
19:36:02 <ehird> the dock bounces about too much and doesn't provide an easy way to switch windows
19:36:04 <ais523> isn't that what you use multiple desktops for?
19:36:10 <ehird> the windows 7 "doskbar" is great
19:36:14 <ehird> ais523: that's arbitrary segmentation
19:36:23 <ehird> why should i have a modal window organization format?
19:36:24 <ais523> ehird: exactly, but that's a good thing
19:36:28 <ais523> you can segment things arbitrarily
19:36:36 <ehird> arbitrary segmentation doesn't work
19:36:39 <ehird> because you have to remember it
19:36:47 <ais523> ehird: generally speaking there's an obvious way to segment in any given situation
19:36:56 <ehird> even if there was, it's extra cognitive load
19:36:59 <oklopol> generally speaking my brain remembers the segmentation for me.
19:36:59 <ehird> which is universally Bad
19:37:10 <oerjan> oklopol: please do not use strange spelling with ? in it, i get unicode paranoia
19:37:15 <ehird> as, if cognitive load were OK, we'd just not bother with usability
19:37:19 <ais523> for me, for instance, generally I'll have standard Internet stuff (RSS feed reader, IRC, web browser, email) in one desktop
19:37:32 <ehird> ais523: i multitask
19:37:33 <oklopol> my friend segmented his hard drive in folders named A-Z, and puts stuff under a completely random letter
19:37:34 <ais523> and whatever programming I'm working on (mostly terminals and HTML renderers for documentation) in another
19:37:36 <ehird> i have a nice big screen
19:37:40 <ehird> and i like floating windows
19:37:45 <ehird> virtual desktops destroy all that
19:37:55 <ais523> ehird: why do virtual desktops destroy floating windows?
19:37:58 <ehird> and they're unneeded, anyway; the win7 dock/taskbar handles the usecase just fine
19:38:00 <ais523> admittedly, my screen's rather smaller than yours
19:38:08 <ehird> ais523: because floating windows means -all- windows floating
19:38:08 <ais523> but I'll normally float a game to the right of TAEB
19:38:11 <ehird> minus ones you've explicitly hidden
19:38:23 <ais523> you can have several maximised windows behind a couple of floating ones
19:38:31 <ehird> then you're not using floating windows
19:38:38 <ehird> you can code imperative programs in haskell, too
19:38:41 <ehird> that doesn't mean haskell's imperative
19:38:49 <ais523> I'm using floating in the sense of not maximised or pinned
19:38:55 <ais523> which IIRC is the usual computer meaning
19:38:57 <ais523> do you mean something else?
19:39:04 <ehird> i'm using it in the sense of windows being behind other windows.
19:39:10 <ehird> apart from ones you've EXPLICITLY hidden
19:39:13 -!- augur has joined.
19:39:14 <ehird> virtual desktops hide all your current windows
19:39:19 <ehird> i'd rather use a tiling wm
19:39:21 <ehird> at least they're consistent
19:39:22 <ais523> ehird: just the ones on a different desktop
19:39:34 <ais523> and IMO, user-configurable inconsistency is good
19:39:35 <ehird> ais523: circular reasoning
19:39:39 <oklopol> i would prefer just having them float around the room so i could physically fetch them, and throw them in the corner when i don't need them.
19:39:52 <oklopol> you can't forget a physical location
19:39:53 <ais523> oklopol: for some reason you just reminded me of Project Natal
19:40:27 <oklopol> btw, i coded haskell last night, and i loved it.
19:40:28 <ehird> ais523: "Virtual desktops are a good way to organise windows." "No, virtual desktops hide windows that you don't explicitly." "That's because they're on another virtual desktop."
19:40:35 <ais523> it's Microsoft attempting to make a control system that's like the Wii remote but more so
19:40:37 <ehird> cirhurhurcular reasoning
19:40:44 <oklopol> i mean actually coded, used classes and monads and everything.
19:40:49 <ais523> ehird: more, self-consistent reasoning
19:41:01 <ehird> ais523: you're saying that virtual desktops hiding windows is good because that's how virtual desktops work
19:41:07 <ehird> that is NOT a valid defense of virtual desktops
19:41:15 <oklopol> ehird: it's incredibly hard, my mouse keeps moving towards to python icon all the time :P
19:41:16 <ehird> it's only a defence if you already accept that virtual desktops are good
19:41:18 <ais523> ehird: no, I'm saying that virtual desktops are good because they let me hide windows
19:41:25 <ais523> and that IMO, hiding windows is useful
19:41:26 <ehird> I don't care if you like them!!
19:41:38 <ais523> ehird: well, being able to hide windows > not being able
19:41:38 <ehird> they absolutely suck and I hate them, so I reject you saying "isn't that what virtual desktops are for?"
19:41:47 <ais523> unless the not being able comes with other advantages
19:42:18 <ehird> that. does. not. solve. the. problem. of. organising. windows. for. someone. who. hates. virtual. desktops.
19:42:21 <ais523> ehird: on your setup, can you check email, and then go back to a full-screen terminal with a game in front of it?
19:42:46 <ais523> that's the sort of thing I typically do, I'm wondering if that isn't typical for you, or if you have a different way to do it
19:42:57 <ehird> ais523: I don't want a defence of virtual desktops!
19:43:03 <ehird> I want something that works if you don't like virtual desktops.
19:43:18 <ais523> so your issue is "I don't like virtual desktops; can you pick something else with all the same advantages?"
19:43:21 <oklopol> what are virtual desktops? are they exactly what they sound like? :P
19:43:31 <ais523> oklopol: it's just you have more than one desktop
19:43:32 <oklopol> like some kinda way to change to another vd
19:43:36 <ais523> and can move programs between them
19:43:45 <oklopol> ubuntu did that in our school
19:43:49 <ehird> 19:42 ais523: ehird: on your setup, can you check email, and then go back to a full-screen terminal with a game in front of it? ← yes, using a magical thing called a window switcher.
19:43:53 <ehird> have you heard of them?
19:43:54 <ais523> oklopol: Ubuntu does that by default everywhere
19:43:57 <ehird> they were invented in 1984.
19:44:11 <ehird> good, because that has nothing to do with vds
19:44:14 <ais523> presumably, you keep the email program minimized/hidden when you don't want it in front of your games?
19:44:26 <ais523> otherwise, I don't see how you can easily send it to behind /both/ windows
19:44:40 <ehird> that's not even a question i can parse
19:44:49 <ais523> ehird: ok, the point is that using a typical window switcher
19:44:50 <ehird> I think you're asking "How do I do <identical workflow to virtual desktops> without virtual desktops?"
19:44:54 <ehird> and the answer is "You don't."
19:45:05 <ais523> it just raises the window you aim for
19:45:09 <ais523> not another window at the same time
19:45:19 <ehird> i raise the window i wan
19:45:24 <ais523> ehird: what if you want more than one?
19:45:27 <ais523> that happens to me all the time
19:45:32 <ais523> well, not all the time, but often
19:45:34 <ehird> then i focus one window then the other
19:45:37 <ehird> and arrange them as I see ift
19:45:42 <oklopol> ehird: basically he wants the ability to make sets of windows switch as a group.
19:45:45 <ehird> if one totally overlaps the other, buy a new monitor that's big enough
19:45:56 <ais523> so IOW your setup is like mine, just more hard word
19:46:06 <ehird> my setup is completely effortless
19:46:14 <ehird> yours has the (even if minor) cognitive load of organising windows in virtual desktops
19:46:26 <ehird> (I don't care if it seems natural; you still think about it for a split second whether you want to or not)
19:46:35 <ehird> mine has less cognitive load, therefore mine — for me — is a superior interface
19:46:38 <ais523> ehird: yours has the work of refocusing windows /every single time/ you switch
19:46:41 <oklopol> i personally hate the fact i need to organize the windows myself
19:46:43 <ais523> also, wouldn't that require using the mouse?
19:47:01 <ehird> ais523: Yes, I use the mouse to do mouse-suited tasks, like EVERY STUDY EVER CONDUCTED ON THEM show is more efficient.
19:47:05 <oklopol> i'd just wanna say "i wanna irc, watch vlc and play solitaire, while having my text editor close by"
19:47:06 <ehird> Yes, it feels slower because of inherent cognitive biases.
19:47:09 <ehird> This has also been researched.
19:47:22 <ais523> ehird: I find the keyboard is more efficient when you don't have a mouse attached
19:47:29 <oklopol> and you know it'd do it; of course i guess that is possible even in win 3.11, i just don't know what button to press :P
19:47:35 <ehird> You're the one who failed to attach a mouse.
19:47:37 <ais523> and I can press control-alt-right faster than I can move my hand to the mouse
19:47:42 <ehird> That's like complaining that your computer isn't usable if you don't attach a display.
19:47:50 <ais523> ehird: you try using a mouse in bed some time
19:48:00 <ehird> ais523: Have you heard of these thing called laptops?
19:48:06 <ais523> ehird: yes, this is a laptop
19:48:15 <ais523> balancing a laptop on my duvet while lying in bed = not hard
19:48:15 <ehird> Apparently it's the only laptop ever without a pointing device.
19:48:23 <ais523> ehird: it is; the touchpad here has never worked
19:48:26 <oklopol> ais523: i'm always in my bed, and i use a mouse all the time
19:48:31 <ais523> I need an external mouse in order to get mice to work
19:48:37 <ehird> ais523: So you want user interfaces to be designed around your computer being broken?
19:48:40 <ehird> Ummmmmmmmmm, argument DISMISSEd.
19:48:43 <ais523> (actually, that's a lie, it worked for about 10 seconds, and has never worked since)
19:48:53 <ais523> ehird: I want user interfaces that can cope with unusual modes of working
19:49:20 <ehird> ais523: would you have complained that it's hard to balance an LCD on your lap if the built-in one was broken?
19:49:29 <ais523> I don't want my experience to be completely incapacitated if the keyboard or mouse or screen stops working
19:49:32 <ehird> and proposed that all UIs should work with just speakers?
19:49:47 <ais523> there's a hardware bug here; if you close the laptop lid, the screen goes off, and it doesn't turn back on again until it's rebooted after that
19:50:30 <oklopol> are there oses for blind people?
19:50:31 <ais523> personally, I'm rather pleased that it's possible to REISUB /in the middle of a distro upgrade/ and have the computer still working when I turn it back on again
19:50:37 <ais523> oklopol: there are screenreaders
19:50:53 <oklopol> yes, but that doesn't work
19:50:54 <ais523> available for most major OSes
19:50:58 <ehird> oklopol: yes they do work
19:51:02 <ehird> i've talked to blind people using them before
19:51:02 <ais523> in fact, I think all major OSes bundle one, although some are better than others
19:51:19 <ehird> (I think for programming they used emacsspeak)
19:51:22 <ais523> ehird: more impressive than that; apparently there are people who play NetHack through a screen reader
19:51:37 <ais523> after setting all the characters to alphanumeric ones to make them easier to screenread
19:51:40 <ehird> ais523: this guy was pretty impressive; I couldn't tell he was blind at all until he mentioned it
19:52:19 <ais523> I'd think typing would be the part of using a computer least hampered by being blind
19:52:28 <ais523> I mean, even sighted people generally don't look at the keyboard when typing
19:52:39 <ehird> ais523: yes, but it meant they could listen to what people were saying quickly
19:52:41 <ehird> in a high-traffic irc channel
19:52:44 <ehird> remember the relevant lines
19:52:46 <ehird> then reply quickly
19:52:50 <ehird> while others were still talking
19:52:58 <ais523> ok, that is impressive; but it's the remembering context that's impressive, not the typing fast
19:53:05 <oklopol> i can't do that and i'm not even blind
19:53:12 <ehird> ais523: you can tell they reacted quickly due to typing fast
19:53:25 <oklopol> well i can, but i don't enjoy it :P
19:53:25 <ehird> typing fast = sending lines fast
19:53:43 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8pIWlr3yoE torley is a silly man
19:54:03 <oklopol> anyway, you'd think they don't get the same gui experience with a screenreader
19:54:04 <augur> and that app is cool looking
19:54:14 <ais523> ehird: I distinguish throughput from latency
19:54:15 <oklopol> i mean i'm assuming blind people don't use mouses?
19:54:24 <ehird> oklopol: yeah it's mostly modal
19:54:24 <ais523> to me, 'typing fast' = high throughput, but mentions nothing about latency
19:54:37 <ais523> oklopol: yep, they navigate through everything the same way tab navigates through a dialog box
19:55:01 <ais523> IIRC, they normally use caps lock as an extra modifier key to control the screenreader
19:55:02 <ehird> can't do any better
19:55:09 <ais523> because nobody uses it for anything else...
19:55:15 <ehird> ais523: ah so that's why they're all so calm and collected
19:55:17 <ehird> also, I DO SO FUCK YOU
19:55:24 <ehird> CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR SIGHT
19:55:30 <ehird> oklopol: speech is
19:55:33 <oklopol> you could have surround, and have windows float around.
19:55:49 <ais523> ehird: there's a great bash.org quote about that, but it's probably not worth linking to it because you've probably seen it already
19:55:51 <oklopol> might look kinda ridiculous
19:56:16 <oklopol> but you know webcam, point to windows you want to see, they could make like a buzzing noise
19:56:21 <oklopol> it would be an asymptotically better gui for the blind! :D
19:56:36 <ehird> "I PUT ON MY RObe and wzYEAH BUTrd hTHEt FUNCTOR IS A MONAD When tI CAST LVL 3 EROTICISM"
19:56:43 <oklopol> where asymptotical means not actually, but in some very crooked theory
19:56:44 <ehird> ↑ #haskell + bloodninja surround windows
19:56:55 <ais523> oklopol: hmm... sort of like a VR helmet, but with sound rather than light?
19:57:10 <oklopol> anyway i'd prefer that over the one i have now
19:57:16 <ehird> ais523: what quote was it btw
19:57:16 <ais523> I know that some people use VR helmets to get effectively infinitely large desktops
19:57:53 <ehird> oklopol: i think that you could sort of do that visually with an array of monitors
19:58:00 <ais523> http://www.bash.org/?835030
19:58:03 <oklopol> i'm just saying while blind people might get used to screenreaders, an ideal os for the blind would probably not just be that
19:58:06 <ehird> just make it spin around and zoom in and out and stuff
19:58:14 <ehird> ais523: oh right, old :P
19:58:30 <ais523> that's why I said you'd probably seen it already
19:58:53 <ehird> i wonder if microsoft really can't afford to ship helvetica with Windows (even though apple can) or if they just keep arial through sheer stubbornness
19:59:00 <ehird> even their advertisements use Helvetica
19:59:04 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:59:11 <ais523> ehird: I think they keep Arial because of the number of people who would demand Arial back if they removed it
19:59:25 <ais523> it was the default font back in the days of Windows 3.1, I think because it was first in alphabetical order
19:59:36 <ais523> and people ended up demanding Arial for years afterwards, probably still are
19:59:43 <ehird> "WTF You fucked up arial in the new release, frist it's called 'hevletica' and second the R used to slant down but now it has a weird curve WINDOWS 8 IS USELESS"
20:00:05 <oklopol> i'd just like to remove all fonts except courier new from my comp
20:00:18 <ais523> remember that Arial is one of the few Microsoft fonts that they released for Linux
20:00:18 <ehird> Never say that again. :|
20:00:30 <ais523> oklopol: Windows will break if you remove MS Sans Serif, IIRC
20:00:31 <ehird> ais523: yes, very evil those microsoft people
20:00:35 <ehird> oklopol: Typography, you bitch.
20:00:39 <ehird> Proportional fonts FTW.
20:00:46 <ais523> ehird: they wanted Arial to become a standard font on the Internet
20:00:59 <oklopol> proportional fonts are ugly
20:01:01 * ais523 uses FreeMono for some things, like source code listings in reports
20:01:12 <ais523> it looks identical to Courier New, AFAICT
20:01:17 <ais523> there's probably a subtle difference somewhere
20:01:22 <ais523> but either I or my screen aren't good enough to notice it
20:01:23 <oklopol> really i'd prefer just writing all caps
20:01:31 <oklopol> but people dislike that too
20:01:37 <oklopol> then again, people are idiots
20:01:44 <ais523> oklopol: like an old-fashioned BBC Micror?
20:01:55 <ais523> it was amusing; they could do lowercase, but people hardly ever used it
20:02:06 <ais523> because you had to turn capslock off to type in lowercase
20:02:17 <ais523> and all the commands were only recognised in uppercase
20:02:34 <ais523> (holding shift when capslock is on = capital letter on a BBC Micro, for some reason)
20:02:52 <ehird> BECAUSE PEOPLE INSTINCTIVELY ADD CAPITALS WHEN THEY'RE TYPING, NO MATTER WHAT.
20:02:55 <ehird> oklopol: not in windows
20:03:00 <ehird> the above sentence would start "bECAUSE".
20:03:14 <oklopol> i don't really ever use caps
20:03:32 <ehird> oklopol: you should implement your oklOS because i'm way too lazy to ever implement my idea
20:03:38 <ehird> alas you are too much of an academic, says I!
20:03:40 <ais523> iT SEEMS THAT cAPS lOCK AND sHIFT GIVES A LOWERCASE LETTER ON LINUX TOO
20:03:46 <ehird> you'd have to make something better than electricity first
20:03:50 <ehird> ais523: probably console too
20:04:10 <ais523> ehird: is console input anything to do with the OS? or is it all handled by the BIOS?
20:04:22 <ehird> when i started writing an OS
20:04:24 <ehird> you had to write keyboard code
20:04:29 <ehird> you got keycodes in
20:04:34 <ehird> and mapped them to chars
20:04:40 <ehird> (thus why linux 1 only did swedish)
20:04:42 <ehird> oklopol: i like to imagine that you'd name all your major discoveries as oklo-something
20:04:56 <ehird> oklochippity (your version of silicon)
20:05:43 <oklopol> i usually name things i do with somekinda pun
20:06:23 <ehird> oerjan: be offended
20:07:23 <oklopol> there were so many fruit flies near the micro i almost tripped because of teh startle
20:08:48 <ehird> i should write my os maybe
20:08:52 <ehird> ais523: should I write my OS?
20:09:05 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
20:09:05 <ais523> ehird: only once you have a good idea of how you want it to work
20:09:18 <ehird> (that's the answer)
20:09:30 <ais523> I mean, in more detail than that
20:09:51 <ais523> what things that really need to be built into the OS from the bottom up will you need to build into it from the bottom up?
20:10:15 <ehird> there's not really an "os" in my model tbh
20:10:18 <ehird> it's an environment
20:10:22 <ehird> everything's built in, nothing's built in
20:12:01 -!- mycroftiv has joined.
20:13:14 -!- Robdgreat has joined.
20:13:31 <oerjan> oklopol: wait, you also have flies near the microwave today? they must be up to something...
20:14:56 <oklopol> well. i'm going to vacuum them after a few episodes.
20:15:01 <oerjan> (just one here, though a bigger one)
20:15:26 <ehird> AnMaster: didya figure out how to crypt
20:15:30 <oklopol> GregorR: you'd need quite a lot of them to make a pie.
20:15:41 <ehird> AnMaster: someone might steal your cfunge repo :(
20:16:17 <oklopol> i mean you need about 50 of them to make a fly.
20:16:22 <AnMaster> ehird, very funny. Anyway. How pointless would it be to ask in #ubuntu about this?
20:16:35 <ehird> AnMaster: incredibly
20:16:37 <ehird> #ubuntu is useless
20:16:41 <mycroftiv> depends if your goal is information or amusement
20:16:56 <ehird> haven't seen you here before etc etc
20:16:57 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, I want to know how to install on encrypted / under ubuntu basically
20:16:58 <ehird> sounds like myndzi though :P
20:17:19 <ais523> #ubuntu is informative sometimes
20:17:24 <ehird> yeah… longtime no see… mycroftiv? :P
20:17:26 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: i joined this channel because i love Plan 9 from bell labs, i use ubuntu but i dont do anything fancy with it other than host plan9 stuff
20:17:30 <ais523> and hi mycroftiv, everyone else seems to be saying hi soon so I may as well too
20:17:50 <ehird> mycroftiv: i wonder what connected you from plan 9 to here, whatever it is it's astonishingly accurate :D
20:17:55 <AnMaster> ehird, there is some talk about "Ubuntu alternate installation CD" not sure what that is
20:18:00 <ehird> AnMaster: not worth it
20:18:04 <ais523> AnMaster: it's the text-based installer with more options
20:18:05 <ehird> i don't even know if they do anything to it any more
20:18:09 <ais523> but I don't know if it has the option you want
20:18:15 <ehird> AnMaster: plus, it'd be just as much as a pain as w/ the graphical
20:18:18 <ehird> since it's mostly out of the installer
20:18:24 <ehird> making the encrypted volume yourself then selecting it, AnMaster
20:18:27 <ais523> mycroftiv: Plan 9 is discussed here every now and then
20:18:34 <ehird> AnMaster: just follow some tutorial to make an encrypted volume
20:18:36 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure if the initramfs will handle it
20:18:38 <ais523> we love the way that it named an entirely unrelated program to the editor 'vi'
20:18:39 <ehird> choose it in the ubuntu installer
20:18:42 <ehird> AnMaster: you can rebuild it afterwards
20:18:49 <ehird> you'd have to change /etc/fstab too in the root
20:18:52 <ehird> but that'd get it installed at least
20:19:02 <ehird> ais523: it has an emacs man page too!
20:19:10 <ais523> ehird: is it for emacs? or for something else/
20:19:16 <mycroftiv> i like plan9 and anything to make computing and the internet a weirder and wilder place, if there was a movement for Digital Surrealism, id join it
20:19:32 <ehird> ais523: http://man.cat-v.org/plan_9_2nd_ed/1/emacs
20:19:37 <ais523> mycroftiv: /definitely/ sounds like you're in the right channel
20:19:53 <ehird> ais523: a polish guy came in with no idea who we were
20:19:56 <ehird> and i talked via google translate
20:20:04 <ehird> also then we did translation stuff w/ egobot
20:20:21 <ais523> that's a great man page, I can't even tell if it's the same emacs or not
20:20:29 <ehird> ais523: really? "editor macros"
20:20:34 <ais523> it wouldn't surprise me at all if it was a macroset for acme, or something
20:20:50 <ehird> ais523: the actual plan 9 programs tend to be well-documented… :P
20:20:53 <ais523> yes, it's obviously an editor, or something for an editor
20:21:01 <ehird> i don't even think /bin/emacs exists on plan 9
20:21:03 <ehird> so it's a phantom man page
20:21:04 <ais523> but given the way plan9 works, I'm wondering if it's the same one
20:21:14 <ehird> it's mu, due to not existing
20:21:22 <ais523> also, the correct location is /boot/emacs
20:21:41 <mycroftiv> there used to be a joke/troll manpage for emacs i think that bell labs did, bell labs thinks even Vi is bloat :)
20:22:14 <ais523> I have seen non-bloated versions of Emacs (not GNU Emacs, some reimplementation)
20:22:18 <ais523> but they were basically useless
20:22:39 <ais523> it felt like notepad with Emacs key bindings
20:23:16 <ehird> mycroftiv: i just linked to it
20:23:21 <ehird> but they don't think vi is bloat
20:23:24 <ehird> they just think it's designed wrong
20:23:50 <ais523> I don't see how you can reasonably argue vi is bloated; you can argue that /vim/ is bloated, though
20:24:07 <ehird> ais523: vi is bloated because it does things that are not required to be integrated
20:24:11 <ehird> it's designed wrong, simply
20:24:16 <mycroftiv> ive actually come around to the Way of Ed now myself, i think its actually a great tool for quick and easy edits...which probably means ive crossed some sort of Event Horizon for how I work with computers, and nothing i say can even reach the external universe
20:24:20 <ehird> plan 9 kind of annoys me because they were so close to realising that the filesystem was just a redundant identifier for in-memory objects and they could unify them
20:24:32 <ehird> but the unix thinking held on that tiny bit longer :(
20:24:36 <ais523> esolangs challenge: looking at the titles of things in Recent Changes, figure out whether they're true or not
20:24:41 <mycroftiv> ehird: i agree that plan9 doesnt go 'all the way' with some of its ideas, and there is a lot of 'old unix' still in there
20:24:56 <ais523> but said true by mistake
20:25:12 <ais523> mycroftiv: learn TECO, that's what happened to ehird when he was going down the ed route
20:25:19 <mycroftiv> ehird: however, as a practical matter - it may be that doing 'a halfway job' and having things work as a pragmatic matter was still the right decision, plan9 is still evolving and being actively developed, so who knows what it will look like eventually
20:25:31 <ais523> and I've used sed for editing before, because I didn't know how to use vi, and didn't realise nano was installed
20:25:34 <ehird> mycroftiv: if you did s/plain text/in-memory entities/ and s/files/automatically-persisted entities/, Plan 9 would have that part down to a T
20:25:40 <ehird> they were so close
20:25:44 <ais523> (I'm quite a bit better at vi now, though, although I'm mostly still an emacs user)
20:26:27 <mycroftiv> ehird: its funny you say that - guess what software i am writing? its actually 'finished' to some extent - it is plan9 software that tries to extend from unix pipes to an abstraction called a 'Hub' that can be either static data or a flowing pipe, with an arbitrary number of readers and writers that can attach/detach freely
20:26:39 <mycroftiv> so i think the idea is something youd like
20:26:44 <ais523> ok, definitely definitely in the right channel
20:26:52 <ehird> mycroftiv: quite timely, actually, as we were just discussing unconventional operating systems
20:26:55 <ehird> how did you find us, anyway?
20:27:07 <ais523> although we'd probably move on to attempting to program with a bunch of hubs, and nothing else
20:27:24 <augur> have you heard orbitals cover of the doctor who theme?
20:27:38 <mycroftiv> well, im in some plan9 related channels and Robdgreat was in there, and we were talking and he mentioned this channel, and i said 'what? #esoteric? joining now!'
20:27:45 <augur> Plan 9 From Outer Space!
20:28:17 <ehird> my internal memory bank entry for "Robdgreat" is "RodgerTheGreat was a jerk and accused him of stealing his name when he didn't"
20:28:23 <ehird> I may have the first bias-inserting RAM ever
20:28:29 <mycroftiv> ais523: actually my ideas even do go in that direction, because i use hubs to do both gnu screen like functionality, and to put 'persistent processes' running in them, with the idea i can eventually make an environment where everything i do is just echo >hub that is 'hiding' the right app
20:28:42 <ehird> Robdgreat: i remember everything :D
20:29:00 <Robdgreat> I've used this name almost exclusively for about 12 years now
20:29:06 <ais523> RodgerTheGreat and Robdgreat are two different people?
20:29:09 <ais523> wow, that's confusing, I never realised
20:29:24 <augur> sounds like a very good basis for a trademark infringement lawsuit.
20:29:29 <mycroftiv> you guys conquered egypt awhile back right?
20:29:41 <ehird> ais523: you can tell because one's a dick
20:29:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:29:57 <ais523> ehird: to a first approximation, everyone on the Internet's a dick
20:30:08 <ehird> (I mostly dislike him because he was a total jerk to me for no reason and made arguments that hinge exactly on "haha, you're young, QED", but…)
20:30:33 <Robdgreat> well, the fact that you're young clearly invalidates your dislike for him
20:32:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
20:44:11 <ehird> Just put in 100MB and be done with it.
20:44:15 <mycroftiv> i use ubuntu, you just want how much space is being used by the files there, or are you partitioning?
20:44:22 * ais523 Applications | Accessories | Disk Usage Analyzer
20:44:24 <AnMaster> ehird, I use 32 MB usually on arch
20:44:28 <ais523> just to annoy AnMaster, I'd use the command line normally
20:44:31 <FireFly> [21:44:10] (jonas@/boot)$ du -sh
20:44:38 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:44:54 <ehird> So, with a bit of leeway, put in 100MB.
20:44:56 <fizzie> AnMaster: "37M /boot" for my work-workstation, which is a 32-bit Ubuntu too.
20:45:04 <ehird> You HAVE got a thousand times that.
20:45:05 <ais523> 32-bit, I have an Ubuntu/Kubuntu hybrid here
20:45:20 <AnMaster> I'm used to /boot needing about 16 MB...
20:45:24 <Deewiant> On the school computer I'm IRCing from
20:45:28 <mycroftiv> mine is 27mb, but if i happen to be interested in doing kernel testing, it often may be several hundred mb with tons of kernels, so i think being parsimonious for /boot partition is silly unless your hdd is like a netbook or something
20:45:29 <AnMaster> whe the hell do they put on it
20:45:36 <ehird> AnMaster: Everything.
20:45:40 <ehird> So it works for everybody.
20:45:44 <Deewiant> Looks like it has 6 kernel versions
20:46:01 <fizzie> There's three kernels in my /boot; that's 3*~2.2 megs of kernels, 3*~1 megs of System.map, 3*~8.5 megs of initrd images, and 3*~0.5 meg "abi" files.
20:46:02 <ais523> AnMaster: it has all the kernel versions you've ever had installed, unless you explicitly clean up old ones
20:46:07 <ais523> together with all the devices
20:46:19 <ais523> oh, also backups of them
20:46:29 <fizzie> I guess since I don't own the workstation it's not actually "my" /boot.
20:46:33 <Deewiant> vmlinuz taking up about 3.4 megs, System.map taking 1.8 megs, initrd 8.4, "abi" 0.5
20:46:45 <ehird> oklopol: btw since we agree on how things should be manipulated and transformed and stuff in an OS, what kind of ui were you thinking of?
20:46:55 <Deewiant> And the somewhat irrelevant config of 89K each and vmcoreinfo of 1.2K each
20:47:16 <fizzie> Deewiant: And the memtest86+.bin of 122K!
20:47:30 <fizzie> Well, on this Ubuntu; maybe not in your case.
20:47:31 <Deewiant> fizzie: That's O(1) though, it doesn't count
20:47:44 <Deewiant> And yeah, it's on this machine too
20:47:45 <ehird> ais523: he only has a 32MB hard drive
20:47:54 <ehird> ais523: i'm joking
20:47:58 <fizzie> Deewiant: "Okay, so I'll store a DVD image there, it's just O(1)."
20:48:05 <ehird> ais523: he has 160000MB
20:48:16 <ehird> which means, of course, that 100MB is absolutely vital
20:48:22 <ais523> hmm... arguably, storing a DVD image in /boot might not be a bad idea
20:48:30 <ais523> if it was a liveDVD that mounted itself from disk
20:48:34 <Deewiant> fizzie: As long as you don't store a DVD image for every kernel, which would be incredibly wasteful
20:48:37 <ais523> that's got to be potentially useful for something
20:48:39 <ais523> I'm just not sure what it is
20:49:05 <fizzie> Deewiant: I store a different movie DVD for each kernel, every time something I feel goes well with that particular kernel.
20:49:20 <Deewiant> What movies do you currently have stored?
20:49:38 <ehird> his current one is Richard M. Stallman Eats Stuff Off of His Feet
20:50:10 <fizzie> And for the record, this workstation has a separate /boot partition, "df -h" says size 92M, used 42M, avail 45M.
20:51:30 <oklopol> ehird: i do not have one definite opinion on that, but basically there's a way to visualize an object, and there's a working set containing objects you want to manipulate, automatically fit on the screen.
20:51:50 <oklopol> but that's not really something i've thought 100% through.
20:51:53 <ehird> oklopol: how are objects visualised?
20:52:53 <mycroftiv> shouldnt that be modular and user configurable - i dunno what framework you guys were talking about, happy to be brought up to speed - but it seems like you ought to be able to have objects that act as data/display filters, and by choosing what of those are connected/mounted (whatever your semantics are) in the graphical namespace, you control the display?
20:52:54 <oklopol> what a simple and direct question.
20:53:01 <oklopol> let me think about that for a hour or so :P
20:53:07 <ehird> mycroftiv: pretty much
20:53:10 <ehird> my basic model is:
20:53:24 <ehird> objects and methods that manipulate them directly, standard stuff like "bitmap image" having rotate-by-amount
20:53:28 <ehird> views are, basically
20:53:31 <ehird> transformations of objects
20:53:40 <ehird> transforming an object into a visualisation
20:53:53 <ehird> transforming an object into a rotated version, via a dialog that asks for the amount
20:54:09 <ehird> so you can make generic visualisers that have hooks to let additional components add parts to them
20:54:13 <ehird> and also specialised visualisers
20:54:14 <mycroftiv> got anything like a semantics for a user command, or a system call in a language, for what applying those might look like?
20:54:31 <ehird> mycroftiv: i generally think graphical, commandline would probably just be the language itself
20:54:46 <ehird> since it's more challenging to try and apply it to blobs on the screen than just direct commands
20:54:55 <ehird> (because views are basically the interesting part)
20:54:59 <oklopol> ehird: and everything duck typed so that a view is just any object that responds to certain drawing commands?
20:55:10 <ehird> oklopol: it's more abstracted than that
20:55:10 <mycroftiv> im just thinking along the lines of 'how do i express the transformation/application' at whatever layer im working at if im coding the thing up
20:55:15 <ehird> a view isn't specifically GUI related
20:55:19 <ehird> although ofc you can add gui interfaces to them
20:55:26 <ehird> it describes the fundamental interaction, so to speak
20:55:41 <mycroftiv> ehird: right, i think thats excellent, the interfaces for applying the transofrmations and the concept of a 'view' as a mapping doesnt need to know anything about graphics specifically
20:55:41 <ehird> "FROM an object, TAKING a scale amount, TRANSFORMING INTO the rotation"
20:55:52 <ehird> and that can basically be used to make a variety of things
20:55:56 <ehird> a modal scale command,
20:56:02 <ehird> a slider that scales in real-time
20:56:09 <ehird> and you can add them as different interfaces to the transaction object
20:57:25 <mycroftiv> so, i take it you guys want some kind of abstracted type-safe (or typeless?) system where you can really hand any object to any other object safely, so to speak? if it 'doesnt make sense' you either get weird results or null, but its safe to try to always (apply X Y) or x(y) or however you like to express it
20:57:44 <ehird> mycroftiv: mine's duck typed
20:58:02 <ehird> mycroftiv: because you should be able to invent a new type of vector image representation on the fly
20:58:04 <ehird> and edit it immediately
20:58:08 <ehird> without defining interface boilerplate
20:58:11 <ehird> i _might_ add interface types
20:58:19 <ehird> so that you have the type "responds to this message with these parameters"
20:58:23 <oklopol> safety is easy, just don't give all objects access to all other objects.
20:58:26 <ehird> but i think that generally those just end up repeating the code
20:58:32 <ehird> but what oklopol said
20:58:36 <ehird> for actual security, capability-based
20:58:41 <ehird> for wantonly applying things to other things, go nuts
20:58:43 <ehird> you might get an error
20:58:57 <ehird> but if it royally messes up that object, just zap it
20:59:10 <mycroftiv> no reason not to have reversibility built in also
20:59:22 <mycroftiv> you should always be able to 'pop back' to the previous state before an operation
20:59:22 <ehird> erm, yes, very good reason
20:59:28 <ehird> well duh, of course undo
20:59:32 <ais523> you know the near-identical phone numbers in the SCO story? one of them just changes
20:59:34 <ehird> mycroftiv: i'm going to restore every revision of every object, hopefully
20:59:49 <mycroftiv> ive been on that as a crusade for a bit
21:00:01 <ehird> mycroftiv: although i'll prefer to store the symbolic representation of the inverse operation when it's truly reversible
21:00:04 <oklopol> the great thing about logging is it's actually the ideal way to use your hd.
21:00:06 <mycroftiv> in my plan9 Hubfs, the idea is you can 'freeze' the pipe and then vac it to venti for deduplicative versioning at any point
21:00:11 <ehird> all your inverted HD movie
21:00:14 <ehird> would be stored along with the original
21:00:21 <ehird> oklopol: i'm totally optimising for SSD
21:00:30 <ehird> because i'm going orthogonal persistence
21:00:32 <ais523> ehird: optimise for ROM
21:00:33 <ehird> ram is harddisk, harddisk is ram
21:00:36 <ehird> ram is just the cache
21:00:43 <ais523> well, write-once memory
21:00:45 <ehird> jump over the plug? restart
21:00:51 <ehird> in a few seconds, your encode and processing tasks are going again
21:01:09 <ais523> orthogonal persistence = good, but ideally you should have orthogonal everything
21:01:25 <mycroftiv> ehird: how about abstracting away totally from the physical substrate, and pushing that down a layer? the os level semantics you just 'tag' your data with whether you want it to be persistent or nonpersistent, versioned or not, etc - and then the lower layers choose how to apply those requested conditions to whatever the actual storage is
21:01:40 <ehird> mycroftiv: nonono, everything is persistent
21:01:40 <ais523> anyway, here's my idea for what an OS should be able to do
21:01:42 <ehird> that's not up for debate
21:01:48 <ais523> you know how grep can add line numbers?
21:01:49 <ehird> you never lose anything unless you explicitly zap every single revision of it
21:01:56 <ais523> you should be able to run an input file through grep
21:01:58 <mycroftiv> ehird: how about 'no erase' at the os level then even?
21:02:01 <ais523> and /then/ add the line numbers afterwards
21:02:06 <mycroftiv> just like venti does it? version all the data, never delete
21:02:12 <ais523> it should remember where the lines came from so you can do that
21:02:19 <ehird> mycroftiv: it should be possible, in case you get some stupid files you don't want
21:02:24 <ehird> but it just shouldn't be common
21:02:51 <mycroftiv> ehird: think about the 'no delete' at os semantics option, because that is a huge security feature in some ways, in terms of data security and availability, if its impossible to mistakenly delete stuff
21:03:03 <ehird> there's no reason to do that
21:03:05 <ehird> it just restricts freedom
21:03:13 <mycroftiv> nah, it pushes the freedom down a layer
21:03:16 <ehird> mycroftiv: everything is inherently restricted, anyway
21:03:18 <ehird> capability security
21:03:22 <ehird> things can't wantonly delete your shit at all
21:03:48 <ehird> if the user wants to make a big fat drop-target that lets em drag any objects e wishes to it and instantly obliterates it, then e is a royal idiot
21:03:52 <ehird> and will promptly be allowed to do it
21:04:15 <mycroftiv> ill support 'worse is better' philosophy, sure - thats standard unix principles
21:04:24 <ehird> i just support freedom
21:04:35 <ehird> mycroftiv: you would have to explicitly give this object the ability to delete without qualification
21:04:38 <ehird> for it to work automatically
21:04:41 <mycroftiv> but isnt 'worse is better' actually about freedom?
21:04:52 <ehird> and you can't stop the user doing what e wants anyway
21:04:54 <mycroftiv> i thought the idea is 'keep the users freedom, even if that means allowing stupid things'
21:04:59 <ehird> if e wants to get rid of eir data
21:05:08 <ehird> Throw the harddrive out of the window; stomp on it.
21:05:22 <ehird> mycroftiv: worse is better is about the internal implementation simplicity beating correctness and a nice UI
21:05:24 <ehird> I don't fully agree
21:05:36 <ehird> because, well, the unix UI sucks because of it.
21:05:50 <ehird> anyway, brb. feel free to ping me, the messages will go into the mental Q
21:05:55 <ehird> by which i mean queue
21:05:56 <ais523> ehird: I think being opinionated about UIs is actually your most salient feature
21:06:09 <ais523> I'm not sure that's a bad thing, though
21:06:21 <mycroftiv> cool ideas, ill actually try to code what i can embodying them for plan9
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21:26:45 <ais523> heh, heading of one of the forum posts talking about SCO's latest complicated attempt to achieve something: "Is Germany in Japan, or is Japan in Europe?"
21:29:49 <AnMaster> ehird, ubuntu doesn't accept extents on ext4 partitions
21:30:06 <AnMaster> as in: installer doesn't accept it
21:32:24 <AnMaster> no package selection? what the hell. Means I have to remove manually after?
21:38:37 <Deewiant> It's UBUNTU for crying out loud
21:41:16 <ais523> Sgeo: the new feature in ext4
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21:53:26 <ehird> 20:32 AnMaster: no package selection? what the hell. Means I have to remove manually after?
21:53:30 <ehird> it means you don't remove after.
21:54:07 <ehird> 21:05 ais523: ehird: I think being opinionated about UIs is actually your most salient feature
21:54:22 <ehird> because I have to know that the internals are bad much less than I have to know the UI is bad
21:54:40 <ehird> and I don't like using software that makes me think meta-thoughts as opposed to the thoughts about what I'm doing
21:55:25 <AnMaster> <ehird> it means you don't remove after. <-- I don't want stuff like palm sync tools
21:55:35 <ehird> if you remove them you'll remove ubuntu-desktop
21:55:39 <ehird> which will break upgrades
21:55:42 <ehird> well, distro ugprades
21:55:47 <ehird> AnMaster: if you don't want htem
21:55:55 <ehird> they take what, a few meg?
21:56:01 <ehird> actually, AnMaster
21:56:06 <ehird> do you remove all the elisp files you don't use?
21:56:18 <ehird> or do you just let 5x5, life, ...
21:56:22 <ehird> stay around and simply not use them?
21:56:39 <ais523> removing ubuntu-desktop doesn't 'break upgrades'
21:56:45 <ais523> it just means you aren't automatically given the standard application set
21:56:55 <ehird> ais523: well, sort of
21:56:57 <ais523> as you're removing standard applications, you can't be...
21:56:59 <ehird> there's more stuff to it than that iirc
21:57:12 <AnMaster> anyway it generated a broken initramfs... *debugs*
21:57:45 <ehird> …I'm not sure AnMaster understands what Ubuntu is…
21:59:23 <ehird> you do know that when people steal your laptop they'll give up at the password prompt and install Windows?
21:59:37 <ehird> you do know that when people steal your laptop to steal your data they'll just physically threaten you for the key?
21:59:46 <AnMaster> how could they? bios password and boot order set to boot disk first
21:59:55 <AnMaster> it would be non-trivial to boot a windows install cd
22:00:05 <ehird> AnMaster: Then they'll just give up and dump it.
22:00:11 <ehird> Just as they would at the password screen.
22:00:18 <ehird> And, as I said, "you do know that when people steal your laptop to steal your data they'll just physically threaten you for the key?".
22:00:26 <ehird> Encrypting / on a laptop that's password-protected buys you precisely zilch.
22:00:59 <ais523> the usual trick if you want to get a laptop past, say, the TSA, is to set it to boot Windows with no timeout
22:01:03 <ais523> even though you normally use Linux
22:01:22 <oklopol> ehird: only assuming you cave in to the threats.
22:01:50 <ehird> oklopol: yeah, uh, when someone's repeatedly hitting you in the face with a baseball bat and knocking out your teeth, you're gonna tell them your encryption code
22:02:05 <ehird> or, you know, alternatively, die
22:02:11 <ehird> if your data is more important than your life
22:02:23 <oklopol> if i know the alternative is to die, then depends on the data.
22:02:25 <ais523> ehird: possibly I'd end up dying, my strongest password is so long and complicated I can't even spell it correctly more than 1 time in 3
22:02:44 <mycroftiv> data so secure, even you cant read it
22:02:46 <Sgeo> o.O ehird's a mod on Reddit?
22:02:51 <ehird> Sgeo: in /r/mspaint, yes.
22:02:58 <ehird> which is a rather… small corner of it.
22:03:17 <Sgeo> "a community for 6 hours"
22:03:21 <AnMaster> ehird, seems you need alt install cd to make it work for ubuntu
22:03:30 <oklopol> ehird: anyway i'd say few people are actually willing to kill me for whatever data i may have
22:03:54 <ehird> AnMaster: apparently you haven't been listening to me
22:03:56 <oklopol> so i'd probably just assume they aren't going to kill me even if they tell me they are
22:04:08 <AnMaster> ehird, about not encrypting? No
22:04:16 <ehird> AnMaster: it provably has no forseeable benefit
22:04:17 <oerjan> oklopol: congratulations, you have now just about wrapped up the relevant xkcd comic :D
22:04:21 <ehird> in any case whatsoever
22:05:27 <oerjan> (your contribution being the hover text
22:06:26 <oklopol> anyway, after a few hits from a baseball bat, if still conscious, i'd be so full of adrenalin it would probably be much harder to get the passw out of me
22:06:55 <oerjan> that's why they drug you first, duh
22:06:58 <ehird> sans laws and ethical codes and with a nice amount of things to hit people with and drugs i'm pretty sure i could get your password out of you oklopol
22:07:29 <oklopol> but really depends on the data
22:07:56 <FireFly> As well as ehirds strength
22:07:59 <ehird> oklopol: i'm not sure you understand how drugs work
22:08:01 <oklopol> but of course there are things i'd die for.
22:08:06 <ehird> FireFly: i specifically specified things to hit people with
22:08:11 <oklopol> ehird: well right, depends on the drugs as well i guess :P
22:08:15 <ehird> like, oh, a powered chainsaw?
22:08:20 <Sgeo> There's not much I died for. Maybe if my dying would prevent deaths
22:08:27 * oerjan sort of thinks the idea that people can withstand torture by willpower is a myth, except he vaguely recalls reading that McCain did so...
22:08:29 <Sgeo> s/I died/I'd die/
22:08:30 <ehird> Sgeo: you never died for something?
22:09:01 <oklopol> yes, say there were instructions for killing the whole population of earth on my hd, i would die before giving those up.
22:09:34 <FireFly> Even if I met someone who had something dangerous to hit me with (say, a bat), I think still it depends partly on the strength
22:09:41 <ehird> AnMaster — doing things that can be proved to have no positive effect and just make things way harder for him since 2009.
22:09:45 <ehird> Hmm, no, probably all his life.
22:09:54 <ehird> FireFly: chainsaws aren't that heavy
22:09:58 <ehird> and you don't need much of a swing
22:10:14 <ehird> also slipping and dropping it adds to it ofc
22:10:44 <oklopol> also chainsaws suck for getting the truth out of someone
22:10:56 <oklopol> well i guess you could remove a hand or something
22:11:13 <ais523> I'd say it rather depends on how close you are to the nearest policeman
22:11:27 <ehird> ais523: "sans laws and ethical codes and with a nice amount of things to hit people with and drugs"
22:11:34 <ehird> besides, let's say the government approves
22:11:39 <ehird> they're unethical enough to
22:11:45 <ehird> oklopol: how much do you value your penis
22:12:04 <oklopol> a bit more than my hands prolly
22:12:13 <ehird> BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZTRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
22:12:26 <oklopol> i value my brain the most, so you can't do much better than that baseball bat.
22:12:40 <ehird> oklopol: free trepanation services
22:12:45 <ehird> comes with free lobotomy
22:13:32 <oklopol> ehird: anyway, willing to die for stuff usually means you're willing to lose your penis for it
22:13:40 <ehird> oklopol: yes, intellectually
22:14:06 <ehird> AnMaster: so, care to provide one situation where encryption of a password-protected laptop actually has any advantage?
22:14:29 <oklopol> i am usually fairly intellectual under all sorts of torture; haven't been hit with baseball bats though
22:14:40 <ehird> oklopol: have you truly ever been really tortured
22:15:12 <oklopol> not really. but you do realize you don't really feel the pain after a few minutes
22:15:20 <AnMaster> no root pass is set? Seems insanely insecure
22:15:27 <ehird> AnMaster: you can't log in as root.
22:15:43 <oklopol> anyway, torture would be fun to experience, true
22:15:53 <AnMaster> I meant: use root password for sudo not user password
22:15:54 <oklopol> should put that on my todo list
22:16:00 <oklopol> right under gay sex and killing someone
22:16:01 <GregorR> `addquote <oklopol> anyway, torture would be fun to experience, true <oklopol> should put that on my todo list
22:16:04 <HackEgo> 53|<oklopol> anyway, torture would be fun to experience, true <oklopol> should put that on my todo list
22:16:08 <AnMaster> in case someone looked and saw one password it would reduce the impact
22:16:13 <ehird> `append the gay sex bit
22:16:25 <ehird> AnMaster: you can do it, but you shouldn't and it is pointless
22:16:28 <ehird> i think you should not use ubuntu.
22:16:30 <oklopol> the great experiences of life
22:16:49 <ehird> oklopol: i don't think killing someone is a terribly great experience
22:16:50 <GregorR> oklopol: So for you, the great experiences are gay sex, killing someone and being tortured. Sounds like a fun night.
22:16:56 <ehird> unless your fun function is like destroysPsyche(x)
22:17:26 <GregorR> Basically he wants to be a BDSM slave to some guy, then break free and kill him.
22:17:33 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:17:34 <oklopol> well not just that, but how is having to fight not going insane not fun?
22:17:50 <ehird> i'm pretty sure directly killing someone is permanent damage.
22:17:56 <ehird> good luck not having trauma from that
22:18:10 <ehird> fighting not going insane sounds fun
22:18:24 <oklopol> i don't really believe in trauma
22:18:39 <ehird> oklopol: trauma believes in you.
22:19:11 <oklopol> but, then again some people seems to get traumatized forever from having someone have sex with them, so i guess i just shouldn't compare myself to humans.
22:19:30 <oerjan> oklopol: i think your problem is you think your ego is unbreakable/all of your psyche, and therefore you think resisting torture is merely about choosing not to give in
22:19:32 <ehird> oklopol: have you ever actually been raped :P
22:19:40 <ehird> lol good question eh
22:19:46 <ehird> s/eh\nehird/ehird/
22:19:49 <GregorR> But they love you, Charlie!
22:19:54 <ehird> oklopol: please tell me that was a joke
22:19:55 <oklopol> if i was a woman, i'd try it ofc
22:20:03 <GregorR> But they care about you, Charlie!
22:20:11 <ehird> you know that women have raped men and men have raped men, right, oklopol?
22:20:18 <ehird> i mean i assume you're joking.
22:20:41 <oklopol> also horses have raped people
22:20:48 <ehird> i don't think that's happened.
22:21:04 <oklopol> there was this guy, not that long ago, died of it
22:21:18 <ehird> that was more like the guy making the horse fuck him.
22:21:26 <ehird> as opposed to, la la la, bending over naked in front of a horse
22:21:28 <oklopol> right, the accident was with a bull
22:21:30 <ehird> is that a horse penis?
22:21:34 <ehird> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh
22:21:59 <oklopol> anyway no i was not joking, i'm pretty sure there's no way for me to get raped.
22:22:16 <ehird> oklopol: well first step someone overpowers you
22:22:21 <ehird> then they fuck you
22:22:29 <oklopol> if i was a woman, i believe it might be possible. for instance i know women who have been raped, i don't know guys who have even ever feared they might get raped.
22:22:32 <ehird> the third law of physics
22:22:35 <ehird> "oklopol cannot be raped"
22:22:40 <oklopol> err, right, it's physically possible
22:22:47 <oklopol> i'm just saying it's unlikely it'll happen
22:22:48 <ehird> oklopol: Here you go:
22:22:49 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-gb&q=man+raped&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
22:22:57 <ehird> Man was raped and beaten by a former lover, High Court hears - 19 hours ago
22:22:57 <ehird> BBC NEWS | UK | Northern Ireland | Man 'raped and beaten by lover'
22:23:00 <ehird> Man 'gang-raped' by 3 women: News24: SouthAfrica: News
22:23:21 <oklopol> seriously, i'm not saying it's impossible
22:23:29 <oklopol> i'm just saying it's like winning the lottery.
22:23:51 <ehird> oklopol: not rly, just be BFFs w/ creepy fuck
22:23:54 <oklopol> yeah getting raped by women would be really negative :P
22:23:58 <ehird> and get 'em obsessed over you
22:24:03 <ehird> and make them go insane
22:24:10 <ehird> that should do the trick
22:24:48 <oklopol> that sounds like a lot of work
22:25:22 <oklopol> anyway you can't seriously be saying being male doesn't affect *tons* on the odds of getting raped
22:25:54 <oklopol> yeah but it's not like "women are stupid", it's more like "women have vaginas", sure some men have too, but...
22:25:58 <ehird> but i'm (100% - epsilon) sure that if you're a member of homo sapiens sapiens and you're raped, you will be psychologically damaged by it
22:27:08 <ehird> oklopol: it's worth noting that you're just a crazy guy and most people include psychologists, people who have been raped, ... probably rapists ...
22:28:00 <oklopol> i'm not saying most people don't get traumatized over something like that, i'm saying i wouldn't
22:28:29 * Sgeo would be scared that he'd get an incurable STD
22:29:01 <oklopol> you can get that from sex anyway
22:29:47 <oklopol> also you can just check, no reason to be traumatized over it.
22:29:53 <Sgeo> In a consensual situation, I'd use a condom
22:29:58 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the ubuntu equivilent of rc.local? And yes I really need it. Because I need to do some stuff you can't otherwise
22:30:08 <Sgeo> And I and my partner would be checked for STDs first
22:30:31 <AnMaster> huh it has rc.local how could I miss it
22:30:54 <ehird> AnMaster: Uhh, battery management can be managed via the preferences.
22:31:15 <oklopol> they're just kinda in the way
22:31:15 <AnMaster> ehird, Thinkpad specific settings. And not in settings
22:31:38 <AnMaster> to prevent fully charging in order to prolong battery life. As recommended by both IBM and Lenovo
22:32:17 <oklopol> is there anything you can try at home that'd traumatize you? :P
22:32:43 <ehird> oklopol: kill whoever else is in it
22:32:47 <ehird> or, you know, yourself
22:32:47 <oerjan> any genuinely life-threatening accident?
22:33:45 <oklopol> i'm alone atm, and i don't think dying would be very traumatizing :P
22:33:58 <AnMaster> ehird, so what do you mean it can be done the normal way? it can't
22:34:21 <ehird> oklopol: sure would be if you watch
22:34:22 <oerjan> i would imagine humans have pretty strong instincts against doing anything to themselves that is traumatizing...
22:36:24 <oklopol> my father is kind of a drunk, i've fought him a few times, that usually traumatized me until i walked out of the house and went to buy coffee
22:37:22 <oklopol> after a few hours he calls and is like omg are you moving out the house, and i'm reading my database book and am like what are you talking about :D
22:37:39 <ehird> sounds like a very functional family
22:38:38 <AnMaster> yay an OOPS in the wlan driver. At least the kernel arch used was new enough to not OOPS there
22:38:51 <ehird> AnMaster: so why are you using ubuntu if you just want to complain about it
22:38:58 <oerjan> ehird: that's above average functionality in finland you know
22:39:09 <ehird> AnMaster: then don't.
22:39:15 <ehird> it just doesn't work how you want
22:39:47 <oklopol> oerjan: i'm fairly sure my relationship with my parents is better than average in all countries
22:40:01 <oklopol> my life is perfect in all senses
22:40:09 <ehird> i wish my life was perfect
22:40:44 <oklopol> just tell your brain it is
22:41:11 <ehird> oklopol: my subconscious has veto powers
22:41:43 <oklopol> i don't think my brain control was very good until like a few years ago when i started learning it actively
22:42:04 <oerjan> i was going to say it was the evil body-snatching gnomes, but they vetoed it.
22:42:28 <oklopol> but it takes surprisingly little effort to learn to be happy
22:43:31 <oklopol> more coffeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
22:44:01 <ehird> oklopol: you should make lessons dude
22:44:03 <ehird> on how to be so fucking happy
22:44:19 <ehird> you said you're in awe at trees all the time, i can't even be in awe of… an awey thing :|
22:44:22 <ehird> i'd totally pay like
22:44:24 <ehird> $10000000000000000000000000000000
22:44:33 <oklopol> being happy is easy, stuff like stopping itching is much harder
22:44:52 <Asztal> but aren't you in awe of his ability to be in awe?
22:44:54 <oerjan> wait, you know how to stop itching?
22:45:03 <oklopol> i told about that ages ago
22:45:17 <oklopol> right after i realized i could stop hiccups by just deciding to
22:45:18 <AnMaster> what is the package for stuff like gcc binutils and such
22:45:31 <AnMaster> build-essentials or something right?
22:45:48 <AnMaster> can't find it in synaptics though
22:45:50 <ehird> Asztal: that is true
22:45:53 <oklopol> i still can't stop a yawn from coming though :D
22:45:56 <ehird> AnMaster: it's not in Install/Remove
22:46:06 <ehird> one is just a super-easy installer for gui software
22:46:08 <ehird> the other's in Administration
22:46:13 <ehird> and is a full package manager
22:46:21 <ehird> AnMaster: build-essential
22:46:24 <oklopol> a few weeks ago i decided to do it, for two hours i held it in, but it just kept trying to come until finally i got tired
22:46:30 <ehird> just installreate it
22:46:48 <oklopol> but yawning has always been my weak spot, i sometimes yawn for hours because i just can't stop
22:47:07 <ehird> oklopol: do you exaggerate how awesome your life is for irc
22:48:22 <oklopol> i do enjoy having true stories people just dismiss as the ramblings of a mythomaniac
22:49:05 <oklopol> shit can't stop yawning :D
22:49:30 <ehird> oklopol: why do you pay attention to what shit does?
22:50:11 <ehird> no aka coprophillia
22:50:43 <GregorR> Poor coppro and his poor name choice :P
22:50:47 <oklopol> i thought you were referring to the fact scato is used more commonly for phagia, and copro for the philia
22:50:57 <ehird> i'll phage your philia
22:51:00 <ehird> if you know what i mean
22:52:58 <oklopol> i'm actually quite an enthusiast of all kinds of mental disorders, maybe because i've always wanted to be insane
22:53:20 <ehird> oklopol: but if you were insane you couldn't properly enjoy thinking about mental disorders
22:53:47 <oerjan> he could be a MAD SCIENTIST
22:53:49 <oklopol> i mean many people consider me insane, but i function pretty well under most situations, i'd prefer something that's actually classified a mental disorder
22:54:01 <ehird> oklopol: you're just insane enough anyway
22:54:10 <oklopol> yeah i think i have a pretty good amount
22:54:13 <ehird> you're completely bonkers but can point this out and discuss the bonkers at a meta-level
22:54:20 <ehird> thus making you sane but crazy.
22:54:35 <oklopol> i'm very tempted to fuse those words together now.
22:55:21 <oklopol> oerjan: yes, that would be awesome
22:56:04 <oklopol> well, most mad scientists in comics and stuff are all about destroying the world, i prefer the real world kind that's only interested in some incredibly useless subsubject
22:56:31 <oerjan> hey that's no fun. at least build an orbital death ray!
22:56:35 <ehird> but being interested in only one thing is boooooooring
22:57:13 <oklopol> ehird: well true, while i'm not sure i'll ever actually try killing anyone, it would be nice to try out at least a few kinds of lives.
22:57:39 <ehird> oklopol: i cannot figure out how those clauses fit together
22:57:54 <oklopol> i realized i left out a few logical steps
22:58:09 <oklopol> but i thought hey, who cares he's a smart dude he'll come up with something
22:58:37 <ehird> oklopol: my brain made the mental association "this guy is obsessed with killing people and taking their identities"
22:58:39 <ehird> while you're not sure you'd ever kill anyone
22:58:40 <ehird> thus going through with it
22:58:45 <ehird> so that you can assume their identity
22:58:48 <ehird> and try out new lives
22:59:15 <oerjan> hm clearly what oklopol needs there is a body snatching device
22:59:23 <ehird> oklopol: how wrong am I?
22:59:27 <oklopol> basically, my todo list would probably be less broad than the one i joked about earlier, but it's how i'd like to structure my life, trying stuff out.
22:59:32 <oerjan> i should ask the gnomes if they do mail order
22:59:46 <oklopol> but it's true that was probably not deduceable from what i actually said.
23:00:27 <oklopol> not sure that was still very clear
23:00:34 <ehird> oklopol: i prefer my interpretation, don't you?
23:00:36 <oerjan> nothing is deduceable, logic is a lie
23:00:40 <ehird> there's much more of a link between the two
23:01:51 <ehird> oklopol: is it now your new life goal :P
23:02:31 <oklopol> ehird: i'm not sure i like it that much :)
23:03:30 <ehird> my mind worked on it hard for about a second
23:04:01 <oklopol> how hard is it to get a pilot's license usually?
23:04:14 <oklopol> i mean on a scale from driving license to astronaut
23:04:31 <oklopol> i was thinking i'd get that but never drive a car
23:05:11 <oklopol> or get a driver's license at like 40 like my dad did
23:05:56 <ehird> oklopol: astronaut is just pushing some buttons in a cabin
23:06:09 <oklopol> probably because of that he's the kind of driver who waits for 10 minutes, then finds another route, if the traffic light is jammed at red, and there are no other cars in sight.
23:06:40 <oklopol> ehird: well the probably job is, i agree like totally completely, but i'm talking about the training
23:06:55 <ehird> astronaut training:
23:07:01 <ehird> "This button does this, that one does that, blah blah."
23:07:05 <ehird> "Also, you're going to the moon."
23:07:37 <oklopol> i mean driving license takes like 30-300 hours, kind of a rough estimate, i'm not exactly an expert, astronauts train for like... many years, right?
23:08:13 <ehird> more like 3 seconds
23:09:17 <oklopol> weird i could've sworn it was took at least like a crash course in vegas
23:09:26 <pikhq> You can get a pilot's license in a couple of weeks if you insist on it.
23:09:45 <pikhq> (that is, if you fly every weekday)
23:09:52 <ehird> i want a Go Anywhere The Fuck You Want To pilot's license
23:10:01 <ehird> you can get in your plane and start it and fly wherever and just touchdown and get out
23:10:10 <ehird> *Wherever, not Anywhere
23:10:27 <ehird> like, find a nice little island hanging around?
23:10:50 <GregorR> I have just decided that I'm going to spell "advise" as "advize". Screw you, UK. So I would advize you to use something other than an Airplane if you want to do that.
23:10:56 <pikhq> ehird: That's a basic pilot's license, flying in the right lanes using visual information.
23:10:58 <oerjan> ehird: they tried that, but unfortunately they had some trouble getting north korea to sign on the scheme
23:11:19 <ehird> as long as you don't hit things
23:11:35 <pikhq> Oh, counting other countries, eh? Good luck with that. ;)
23:11:35 <oklopol> pikhq: do you have one? :)
23:11:54 <ehird> pikhq: yeah; also islands and shit
23:12:00 <ehird> it'd just be awesome to go anywhere.
23:12:12 <GregorR> And ... the Andromeda galaxy?
23:12:13 <ehird> but the ocean yes.
23:12:38 <pikhq> I want a FTL spaceship.
23:12:52 <ehird> why do you want a spaceship designed to lose
23:13:20 <oklopol> pikhq: is ftl for the lose in that?
23:13:45 <oklopol> well that's just confusing.
23:13:55 <pikhq> Faster than 1 L/T.
23:16:36 <ehird> http://retrocode.blogspot.com/2009/07/perverse-code-deviant-forth.html ← ooh interesting challenge
23:17:01 <HackEgo> * putrefaction: a state of decay usually accompanied by an offensive odor \ * decompose: break down; "The bodies decomposed in the heat" \ * decomposition: (biology) the process of decay caused by bacterial or fungal action
23:18:08 <oklopol> btw turns out i don't have to vacuum the flies just yet, the rest of this house's population is sick, and isn't coming home for a week \o/
23:18:46 <oklopol> i should go socialize with them right away
23:19:14 <ehird> pull the third element to the front
23:20:05 <ehird> i could combine y and z pretty easily
23:21:01 * oerjan mumbles something about bit size and information content
23:21:34 <ehird> combine top two >r >r
23:21:45 <ehird> basically get the two back out again separated
23:21:58 <oklopol> so umm what do those R things do?
23:22:07 <ehird> oklopol: >r pushes top to return stack
23:22:09 * oerjan mumbles more forcefully
23:22:11 <ehird> r> pushes return stack to thingy
23:22:22 <ehird> oerjan: why not assume bignums :P
23:22:43 <ehird> oklopol: I think R@ is R> without the pop
23:22:43 <oklopol> err, guess i don't know what return stack is.
23:22:46 <ehird> i.e. just top of return stack
23:22:51 <ehird> oklopol: basically another stack
23:22:55 <ehird> it also has return addresses but you can ignore that
23:23:27 <oklopol> when the function returns, are its contents pushed on the data stack or something?
23:23:39 <ehird> oklopol: erm return stack doesn't contain return values
23:23:44 <ehird> it contains addresses to jump to to return
23:23:56 <ehird> oklopol: basically you want to leave the return stack as you came in to the word with
23:24:00 <ehird> otherwise shit will fuck up
23:24:07 <ehird> you can just use it as a zero-sum secondary stack
23:24:47 <oklopol> thought it might be used for having another stack where zero-sum is somehow enforced automatically; whatever that means
23:25:18 <ehird> oklopol: : DUP >R R@ R> ; explains it
23:25:20 <ehird> put at return stack
23:25:23 <ehird> top of return stack
23:25:24 <ehird> pop from return stack
23:25:30 <ehird> oklopol: also no bignums
23:25:40 <oklopol> well yeah, i know that much about forth
23:26:52 * ehird realises how to stop AnMaster using Ubuntu
23:26:57 <ehird> AnMaster: they disabled control-alt-backspace.
23:27:01 <oklopol> although i guess i could just read the definition
23:27:12 <ehird> oklopol: x y → x y x
23:27:14 <oerjan> : ROT >R SWAP R> SWAP ;
23:27:22 <ehird> oerjan: that uses swap.
23:27:32 <ehird> oerjan: does it work?
23:27:44 <ehird> oerjan: post it as a comment, anyway
23:27:57 <ehird> pikhq: i've hit it accidentally before, plus you can go to the console to restart X
23:28:15 <ehird> ETHNIC PURGING OF THE UNSANITARY ELEMENTS!
23:28:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I know how to enable ctrl-alt-backspace btw
23:28:57 <oerjan> hm, the SWAP implementation looks complicated
23:29:01 <AnMaster> well maybe not with no xorg.conf
23:29:04 <ehird> AnMaster: why are you using ubuntu? you're just reversing everything they've done
23:29:13 <ehird> seems very pointless.
23:29:34 <AnMaster> ehird, because things works mostly for the hardware
23:29:44 <ehird> would in debian too, and you'd complain less.
23:29:44 <AnMaster> ehird, and I'm only changing some stuff
23:29:52 <oerjan> ehird: using the other definitions on the page, that'll surely be more than 50 words when expanded :(
23:29:54 <AnMaster> ehird, I like debian even less
23:30:08 <AnMaster> ehird, and it feels less integrated
23:30:13 <ehird> oerjan: maybe he doesn't mean expanded
23:30:23 <ehird> AnMaster: did you remove that palm stuff?
23:30:28 <ehird> sounds like you don't care about integration.
23:30:30 <AnMaster> ehird, a bit odd installing something like the svn *client* pulls in mysql *server*
23:30:43 <oerjan> otoh shouldn't you be able to do SWAP with some other trick
23:30:53 <oerjan> without going by that horrible OVER
23:31:10 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought you hated mysql too
23:31:36 <ehird> : swap dup >r + r> swap - ;
23:31:41 <AnMaster> oh also installed lyx pulled in over 700 MB.... Sure that includes texlive, but texlive isn't THAT large
23:31:50 <ehird> oklopol: oerjan did that for rot
23:31:56 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, texlive IS that large
23:32:05 <ehird> oerjan: plz don't think about swap
23:32:13 <oklopol> i didn't know it was trivial before i tried it
23:32:13 <ehird> might pick up your pesky brain waves
23:32:38 <AnMaster> ehird, no texlive is around 300 MB installed iirc
23:33:43 <ehird> oerjan: i think that's the simplest way to swap
23:34:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Aptitude is not recommended any more.
23:34:13 <AnMaster> ehird, that doesn't have a gui at all though
23:34:26 <ehird> Anyway, aptitude = synaptic, in semantics.
23:34:48 <AnMaster> ehird, aptitude seems to have more advanced features. Couldn't get regex search to work in synaptic
23:34:58 <oklopol> ehird: so what are the exact rules, 50 without using anything but >R, R>, R@ and -?
23:35:37 <ehird> oklopol: yah, pretty much
23:35:44 <ehird> oerjan: : swap >r dup r> + ; is a b → a a+b
23:42:34 <ehird> oerjan: you can think about it now
23:42:38 <oklopol> length of that solution is 54
23:43:00 <ehird> oklopol: just come up with a swap dood
23:43:10 <ehird> oklopol: also it's words not chars btw
23:43:36 <ehird> AnMaster: synaptic has everything
23:43:43 <AnMaster> ehird, where is regex search then
23:43:45 <ehird> anyway regex search is… you're… i can't even think of one use
23:44:09 <AnMaster> instead of packages containing ttf in the middle too
23:44:15 <AnMaster> ehird, there were some with ttf in the middle too
23:44:18 <ehird> ttf- in the middle won't be very common.
23:44:33 <AnMaster> ehird, stuff like -mode$ to find all emacs modes (plus some more)
23:44:42 <AnMaster> other stuff contains -mode- too
23:45:11 <AnMaster> ehird, why do you so hate optional advanced features
23:45:37 <ehird> <AnMaster> Blah blah I want this <ehird> do this <AnMaster> What about THIS? Ha! <ehird> You can do that by doing this <AnMaster> WHY ARE YOU SO HATEFUL
23:46:03 <AnMaster> ehird, I think your solutions are suboptimal
23:46:18 <AnMaster> and why *prevent* users from using regex if they want
23:46:20 <FireFly> AnMaster, apt-get install ttf-*tab tab*
23:46:26 <ehird> Yeah, "emacs mode" might return a FUCKING CHICKEN.
23:46:29 <ehird> No wait, it'll return emacs modes.
23:46:42 <oklopol> >R >R >R R@ R@ R> R@ - >R R@ - R> R> + >R >R >R R@ R> - + R> R> R> >R >R R@ R@ R> R@ - >R R@ - R> R> + >R >R >R R@ R> - + R> R>
23:47:07 <AnMaster> ehird, I tried looking for "plan9" and didn't find the user space plan 9 thing. Nor was "plan 9" very useful. And both returned lots of irrelevant results
23:47:15 <AnMaster> so there a regex to match more strictly would have been useful
23:47:20 <ehird> That's because plan 9 from user space isn't in the repos.
23:47:24 <oklopol> oerjan: yeah but i just removed a random amount of them so it's under 50
23:47:36 <ehird> AnMaster: That's a different rc.
23:47:39 <ehird> A different version.
23:47:46 <AnMaster> ehird, says it is from plan9 though
23:47:46 <oklopol> i refuse to actually find a local optimum, and i definitely refuse to make a solution from scratc.
23:47:52 <ehird> AnMaster: it's another port.
23:47:58 <ehird> P9fUS is distributed as one, in-tree build and nothing else.
23:48:07 <ehird> oklopol: is that swap?
23:48:15 <AnMaster> ehird, even gentoo has a package for plan9port
23:48:21 <ehird> oklopol: make swap
23:48:48 * AnMaster hopes wlan works after this sleep
23:48:51 <oklopol> i just substituted the definitions in.
23:48:52 <pikhq> Jebus. Dick Cheney wanted to use the military for "terrorism" arrests.
23:48:57 <pikhq> Read: Army troops and tanks.
23:49:04 <ehird> Dick Cheney should star in porn.
23:49:16 <ehird> Dick Cheney and his Dick in… I Want Your "Cheney" In Me
23:49:29 <ehird> Dick Cheney and his Dick in… Anti-Terrorism Enforcement
23:49:37 <ehird> Dick Cheney and his Dick in… Martial Law in the Bedroom
23:49:46 <ehird> Dick Cheney and his Dick in… Sexual Shooting
23:50:55 <ehird> Dick Cheney and his Dick in... The Patriot "Act"
23:51:35 <ehird> FireFly: oops, sorry
23:51:40 <ehird> oerjan: But this is redundantly redundant.
23:51:47 <oklopol> ehird: oh actually, forgot to substitute +'s definition in; probably can't get under 50 without thinking then
23:51:58 <ehird> oklopol: i don't care about rot
23:52:00 <ehird> oklopol: i care about swap
23:52:18 <AnMaster> ehird, the vol+/- buttons work. But not the mute one
23:52:29 <AnMaster> so I guess I have to dig in ACPI stuff to make it work
23:52:55 <FireFly> No one needs a mute button
23:53:13 <FireFly> I have a mute button on the controller for the speakers
23:53:38 <FireFly> And the play/pause keyboard key for play/pausing Amarok
23:55:04 <AnMaster> the mute button works but isn't reflected in alsamixer
23:55:16 <ehird> AnMaster: ubuntu uses pulseaudio, btw.
23:55:26 <ehird> so you should look at PA stuff instead of alsa when possible.
23:56:00 <AnMaster> ehird, well... I was going to do real time sound stuff... that means jack.
23:56:08 <AnMaster> but maybe that isn't a good idea
23:56:15 <ehird> AnMaster: OSSv4, man!
23:56:29 <ehird> Tiny latency, great quality, low resource usage.
23:56:33 <ehird> ALSA compatibility.
23:56:35 <AnMaster> atm I'm using jack on my desktop
23:56:45 <ehird> I'm not sure OSSv4 is so easy on Ubuntu
23:56:45 <AnMaster> but I seriously considered changing to OSSv4
23:56:54 <ehird> and there are concerns about the code quality but that's not really important
23:56:55 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't on gentoo either iirc!
23:57:16 <ehird> well it could be done it'd just require some rewiring
23:57:19 <ehird> and a custom kernel
23:57:29 <ehird> well not custom kernel
23:57:32 <ehird> you know what i mean
23:57:44 <ehird> ossv4 is a kernel module
23:59:08 <ehird> my mouse is transparent and has a little annoying red LED inside
23:59:13 <ehird> wonder if I could open it up and take it out
23:59:38 <ehird> could remove one of the pins from the scrollwheel while i'm at it to make it smoother and quieter