00:14:02 <GregorR> With somebody else's blood?
00:14:07 <ehird> paint it with semen!
00:14:26 <Robdgreat> you sure you want to do that again?
00:14:36 <ehird> GregorR: I mean sailors, sheesh.
00:14:39 <ehird> Robdgreat: do… what?
00:14:51 <GregorR> ehird: On the Internet, everybody can see you spell :P
00:15:10 <ehird> Robdgreat: What do I need to be sure about whether I'm doing?!
00:15:30 <ehird> …I've done that in the past?
00:15:36 <GregorR> Paint it with seaman semen?
00:15:44 <oerjan> traumatic amnesia, clearly
00:15:54 <ehird> GregorR: Or mushroom mushroom
00:17:23 <ehird> wow the TNN 500AF looks like it can handle a lot
00:17:31 <ehird> solid state cooling is <3
00:18:14 <HackEgo> 34|SUPLENTES EN UN UNIVERSO (MUSSOLINI CUANDO CONQUISTO EL MUNDO): <ehird> i tan solo puede concluir que es defectuoso, o el mundo esta absolutamente loco. Todos a la gloria Il Duce!
00:20:09 <oerjan> now why the heck are they speaking spanish and not italian?
00:20:54 <GregorR> `translate SUPLENTES EN UN UNIVERSO (MUSSOLINI CUANDO CONQUISTO EL MUNDO): <ehird> i tan solo puede concluir que es defectuoso, o el mundo esta absolutamente loco. Todos a la gloria Il Duce!
00:20:56 <HackEgo> IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE (WHEN MUSSOLINI WINS WORLD): <ehird> i can only conclude that it is defective, or the world is absolutely insane. All glory to Il Duce!
00:21:10 <GregorR> `translateto it IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE (WHEN MUSSOLINI WINS WORLD): <ehird> i can only conclude that it is defective, or the world is absolutely insane. All glory to Il Duce!
00:21:12 <HackEgo> IN UN SUPPLENTE UNIVERSO (QUANDO MUSSOLINI WINS MONDO): <ehird> posso solo concludere che č difettoso, o il mondo č assolutamente folle. Tutti gloria a Il Duce!
00:22:31 <oklopol> ehird: >R >R R@ R> R@ - - R@ R> -
00:22:37 <ehird> oklopol: god that's beautiful
00:22:41 <ehird> oklopol: post it as a comment
00:23:23 <GregorR> `translateto it Come on baby, get on the floor, everybody do the dinosaur!
00:23:24 <HackEgo> Vieni bambino, arrivare sul pavimento, non tutti i dinosauri!
00:23:40 <GregorR> `translate Vieni bambino, arrivare sul pavimento, non tutti i dinosauri!
00:23:42 <HackEgo> Come on baby, get on the floor, not all dinosaurs!
00:23:53 <oerjan> oklopol: i think there's an error
00:23:54 <GregorR> So close, and yet so far :P
00:24:32 <ehird> GregorR: i've just finished laughing at "not all dinosaurs"
00:25:04 <ehird> `translateto kr My hovercraft is full of eels.
00:25:06 <HackEgo> My hovercraft is full of eels.
00:25:11 <ehird> Korean, you stupid HackEgo.
00:25:26 <ehird> `translateto ko My hovercraft is full of eels.
00:25:28 <FireFly> Hungarian would be more interesting
00:25:32 <ehird> `translate 내 호버 뱀장어으로 가득 차있다.
00:25:33 <HackEgo> ë, 'í ~ ¸ ë ² "ë ± € ìž ¥ ì-'ìœ ¼ ë ¡œ ê ° € ë" ì ° ¨ ìžë <¤.
00:25:40 <ehird> GregorR: kinda broken fail
00:25:45 <ehird> also, kinda unescape html fail
00:25:50 <FireFly> `translateto hu My hovercraft is full of eels.
00:25:51 <HackEgo> Saját légpárnás tele van angolnából.
00:25:58 <ehird> `translate Saját légpárnás tele van angolnából.
00:25:59 <HackEgo> Saja la t ĄĄŠ GPa RNA and is full of eels ĄĄba ł l.
00:26:15 <ehird> Well, that worked well
00:26:18 <GregorR> Yes, it has issues POSTING unicode.
00:26:33 * oerjan wonders why that contains "angol", which means english iirc
00:26:36 <ehird> GregorR: Also, " and < and > are left escaped.
00:26:55 <ehird> oerjan: pejorative insult, obviously
00:27:02 <GregorR> `translateto it Open the door, get on the floor, everybody walk the dinosaur!
00:27:04 <HackEgo> Apri la porta, ottenere sul pavimento, a piedi tutti i dinosauri!
00:27:09 <oerjan> `translate angol nyelv
00:27:12 <GregorR> `translate Apri la porta, ottenere sul pavimento, a piedi tutti i dinosauri!
00:27:14 <HackEgo> Open the door, get on the floor, walk all the dinosaurs!
00:27:46 <GregorR> Woooh, walk all the dinosaurs.
00:28:06 <ehird> laughter #2 complete
00:28:08 <oerjan> on their feet, all the dinosaurs
00:28:31 <ehird> `translateto ko Open the door, get on the floor, everybody walk to the dinosaur!
00:28:37 <ehird> `translate , 바닥에 문 열어, 공룡을 모두 도보로!
00:28:39 <HackEgo> , Ë ° "ë <¥ ì-ë ¬ ¸ ì-'ì-', ê ³ μë £ ¡ì" ë ª ¨ ë' ë "ë ³ 'ë ¡œ!
00:28:47 <ehird> `translateto fi Open the door, get on the floor, everybody walk to the dinosaur!
00:28:49 <HackEgo> Avaa ovi, pההstה lattialle, kaikki kהvelymatkan pההssה dinosaurus!
00:28:58 <ehird> That's sort of more Hebrew than I'd like.
00:29:03 <ehird> I was thinking more along the lines of Finnish.
00:29:06 <ehird> `translate Avaa ovi, pההstה lattialle, kaikki kהvelymatkan pההssה dinosaurus!
00:29:07 <HackEgo> Avaa ovi, p × "×" st × "lattialle, kaikki k ×" velymatkan p × "×" ss × "dinosaurus!
00:29:33 <GregorR> `translateto he I forget if 'he' is Hebrew ...
00:29:35 <HackEgo> אם אני שוכח 'הוא' היא עברית ...
00:29:52 <FireFly> `translateto sw Hello, world!
00:29:57 <FireFly> `translateto sv Hello, world!
00:29:58 <ehird> `translateto se Hello, world!
00:30:05 <GregorR> `transalteto se Are you looking for Swedish?
00:30:14 <ehird> `translateto se My cousin is a meerkat of strange angles.
00:30:15 <HackEgo> My cousin is a meerkat of strange angles.
00:30:28 <ehird> FireFly: I thought "salt" was the output for a scond :D
00:30:42 <ehird> of course just echoing it isn't much better
00:30:56 <oerjan> ah, apparently angolna is hungarian for eel
00:31:40 <GregorR> That's too hilarious for words.
00:32:53 <ehird> http://imgur.com/8cMmA.jpg
00:34:27 <ehird> GregorR: it was made in ms paint by a redditor guy.
00:34:35 <ehird> Other shit: http://www.reddit.com/r/mspaint/
00:38:28 <ehird> ("Shit" being in the bad meaning here, on second thoughts :P)
00:40:12 <oerjan> GregorR: it gets even better, angolnák can apparently mean either english or eels, at least google uses both when i experiment
00:40:34 <ehird> `translate angolnák angolnák
00:40:48 <GregorR> Are we learning that to truly appreciate this sketch by Monty Python, you have to be bilingual in English and Hungarian.
00:41:53 <FireFly> That's actually interesting
00:42:05 <ehird> GregorR: add a translatefromto
00:42:08 <ehird> for those pesky cases
00:42:43 <ehird> …or just a translatefrom but that's easier given translatefromto :P
00:43:33 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/translateto
00:43:42 <ehird> Was that a subtle hint :P
00:43:50 <GregorR> No, that was the easiest way for me to get that URL.
00:44:57 <GregorR> `fetch http://pastebin.ca/raw/1507393
00:44:58 <HackEgo> 2009-07-25 23:44:58 URL:http://pastebin.ca/raw/1507393 [555] -> "1507393" [1]
00:45:12 <GregorR> `run mv "1507393" bin/translatefromto; dos2unix bin/translatefromto; chmod 0755 bin/translatefromto
00:45:20 <GregorR> `translatefromto en es Hello
00:45:36 <GregorR> `translatefromto es fr Hola
00:45:42 <Asztal> did somebody say something about bilingual in English and Hungarian? :P
00:46:07 <Asztal> [btw, they didn't actually speak Hungarian in the phrasebook sketch :(]
00:47:06 <oerjan> Asztal: angolnák certainly can mean eels, but can it also mean english or is google mistaken? i recall a -nak but not a -nák ending
00:47:31 <ehird> `translatefromto hu en angolnak angolnak
00:47:43 <ehird> `translatefromto hu en angolnak angolnak angolnak
00:47:45 <ehird> `translatefromto hu en angolnak angolnak angolnák
00:47:46 <GregorR> Asztal: No, but you would have to know what the Hungarian is for what they said, and know Hungarian well enough to figure out the off-by-a-syllable-or-so stuff and see what it was "supposed" to say.
00:48:00 <ehird> oerjan: angolnak = english; angolnák = eel
00:48:06 <FireFly> So it's the difference of a ´?
00:48:19 <ehird> If you trust Google Translate.
00:48:34 <GregorR> GOOGLE TRANSLATE IS MY LORD AND SAVIOR
00:48:45 <GregorR> `translateto ko GOOGLE TRANSLATE IS MY LORD AND SAVIOR
00:48:59 <ehird> `translate Google 번역 나의 주 예수 그리스도는
00:49:00 <oerjan> ehird: except it said English for both in my browser when i did angol(n[áá]k) angolnák
00:49:00 <HackEgo> Google ë ˛ ě-ë, ~ ě ~ ě Ł ź ě ~ ě ~ ę ¸ ë | Ź ě ¤ ë "ë"
00:49:09 <ehird> `translatefromto ko en Google 번역 나의 주 예수 그리스도는
00:49:14 <Asztal> quick summary: angol = english, -nak can be a dative suffix; angolna = eel, -k is a plural suffix (and the 'a' becomes 'á')
00:49:21 <GregorR> If anybody wants to figure out how to fix that, that'd be sweet :P
00:49:48 <ehird> GregorR: send header w/ "im utf8 bitch! lol"
00:49:58 <ehird> also s/</</ etc
00:50:02 <GregorR> Asztal: And hovercraft? :P
00:50:08 <Asztal> the best translations can be found at http://www.omniglot.com/language/phrases/hovercraft.htm
00:50:29 <ehird> "Tagalog: Puno ng palos ang aking hoberkrap/hovercraft"
00:51:04 <ehird> `translateto hu My English hovercraft is full of English eels
00:51:05 <HackEgo> Saját angol légpárnás teli angol angolna
00:51:40 <ehird> `translate Saját angol légpárnás teli angol angola
00:51:41 <HackEgo> Saja Ąt Š the English GPa and a full english ĄĄRNA Angola
00:52:00 <ehird> `translate angolnak angolnák
00:52:06 <GregorR> http://www.omniglot.com/language/phrases/useful.htm This = hilarious :P
00:52:07 * oerjan doesn't see a suffix for "My" there...
00:52:16 <oerjan> that would be -m or -k, iirc
00:52:20 <oklopol> okay, finally, i have proven there's no way to do it under 16.
00:52:45 <FireFly> How come you know hungarian, oerjan?
00:53:04 <ehird> oklopol: what's the 16
00:53:18 <oklopol> wait i'll translate it to forth
00:53:18 <oerjan> my mom tried to learn it
00:53:23 <ehird> oklopol: also post your best ones as a comment on http://retrocode.blogspot.com/2009/07/perverse-code-deviant-forth.html dammit :P
00:53:34 <Asztal> oerjan: I've never seen "Saját" before, but apparently it means "mine"
00:53:36 <oerjan> she had some hungarian friends
00:53:36 <GregorR> Ich bin kein Mitglied dieser Konferenz, dennoch möchte ich einen Pinguin.
00:53:44 <ehird> fizziew: are you very w?
00:54:29 <oklopol> >R >R R@ R> R@ - >R R@ - R@ R@ R> - R> - -
00:54:47 <Asztal> oerjan: you were right, though, -m is what I'd expect (as in légpárnás hajó*m*)
00:55:04 <oklopol> the last one was borked because i managed to think python does its subtraction symbolically.
00:55:29 <ehird> oklopol: also is that rot i assume?
00:55:48 <ehird> oklopol: didn't you have a smaller swap?
00:55:51 <oklopol> also 15 is currently as much as i can brute force
00:55:59 <oklopol> so it was luck i managed to do that
00:56:09 <oklopol> ehird: that smaller swap was broken
00:56:24 <oerjan> Asztal: that's what that hovercraft page uses too
00:56:28 <oklopol> anyway, i could make it a lot faster, and do rot, ofc
00:56:34 <ehird> oklopol: post it dammit
00:56:40 <oklopol> at least i assume i can generate more optimizations
00:56:45 <ehird> sure as hell beats his
00:56:47 <ehird> : SWAP >R >R R@ R> >R R@ R> R@ - >R R@ R> >R - R> R> + >R >R >R R@ R> - + R> R> ;
00:57:01 <oklopol> i think mine is the exact same.
00:57:13 <oklopol> except without the redundancy
00:57:22 <ehird> I thought that was different
00:57:41 <oklopol> actually what i did was take
00:58:04 <oklopol> over does a swap, and leaves another copy of x in there
00:58:19 <GregorR> Min igelkott är inte dum eller söt.
00:58:22 <oklopol> i just dropped that instruction
00:58:28 <oklopol> and then removed redundancy
00:58:37 <ehird> hmm my copy of his didn't expand +
00:58:42 <oklopol> it's more interesting that i proved it's optimal
00:58:44 <oerjan> GregorR: Alla igelkottar er söta
00:58:50 <oklopol> not that that's very interesting still
00:59:16 <ehird> : SWAP >R >R R@ R> >R R@ R> R@ - >R R@ R> >R - R> R> >R >R R@ R> >R R@ R> - R> - - >R >R >R R@ R> - >R >R R@ R> - R> - - R> R> ;
00:59:29 <ehird> oklopol: wonder if it's tc
00:59:45 <oklopol> unless you make it lazy :P
00:59:56 <ehird> oklopol: conditionals can be done by pushing addresses on the return stack
01:00:06 <oklopol> well assuming that's not done
01:00:14 <ehird> : nop-forever ' nop-forever >R ;
01:00:26 <oklopol> you could have laziness, like if some value is subtracted from itself after being calculated, it will not be calculated at all
01:00:45 <ehird> oerjan: ' reads the next word and pushes its definition's address
01:00:55 <ehird> ' nop-forever → d834fu34
01:01:18 <oerjan> ehird: without ', might you instead use R> DROP as an INTERCAL FORGET?
01:01:44 <ehird> you can loop without '
01:01:49 <ehird> : nop-forever R@ >R ;
01:01:53 <oerjan> oh wait you still need to do so conditionally
01:01:53 <ehird> think it might be TC because of that
01:02:10 * FireFly wants a browser with full CSS3 support
01:02:30 <ehird> : FOREVER R> DROP R@ >R ;
01:02:36 <ehird> then : LOOP ... FOREVER ;
01:02:43 <ehird> LOOP is "... ... ..." forever
01:02:53 <ehird> that just loops after forever
01:02:57 <ehird> : LOOP FOREVER ... ;
01:03:29 <ehird> : forever r> drop r@ >r ; ok
01:03:30 <ehird> : test forever ." Hello, world!" cr ; ok
01:03:47 <ehird> : forever r@ >r ; redefined forever ok
01:03:49 <ehird> needs more thinking
01:03:59 <ehird> : forever r@ >r >r ; redefined forever ok
01:04:01 <ehird> :9: Address alignment exception
01:05:39 <oklopol> ehird: "URL contains illegal characters"
01:05:45 <oklopol> i can't post comments i'm too dumb :P
01:06:09 <FireFly> Hm, did we get `translatefromto ?
01:06:48 <oklopol> Google Account, what does that mean, should i be logged onto google or something?
01:07:41 <GregorR> `translatefromto es ko Hola
01:07:43 <HackEgo> 안녕하세요
01:08:06 <GregorR> `translatefromto es it Hola
01:08:06 <oklopol> ehird: i posted, but i also posted the proof, and tabs got fucked up
01:08:13 <FireFly> `translatefromto sv en kissa
01:09:26 <oklopol> also "pushed one less x" only makes sense if you know what x is :P
01:09:38 <oklopol> i'm not exactly used to adding comments.
01:09:48 <oklopol> you know, because i'm a retard
01:26:24 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
01:30:47 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:52:32 <Warrigal> `translateto ja I really like eating that beef.
01:56:10 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
01:56:48 <Warrigal> `translateto ja My nickname is Warrigal.
01:58:55 <HackEgo> * Australian wild horse \ * dingo: wolflike yellowish-brown wild dog of Australia \ [19]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
01:59:20 <GregorR> You're an Australian wild horse, huh.
01:59:24 <HackEgo> * Gregor is a surname, and may refer to: * Francis Gregor (MP) (1760 - 1815 ), MP for the County of Cornwall, brother of William. * Valentin Gregor (born May 1963, Bonn, Germany) is a jazz violinist, singer and composer. ... \ [22]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_(surname) \ * Gregory is a common masculine first
02:01:03 <Warrigal> watashi no NIKKUNEEMU wa (野生) desu.
02:01:24 <GregorR> `translateto ko My hovercraft is full of Warrigals.
02:01:33 <GregorR> `translateto ja My hovercraft is full of Warrigals.
02:01:35 <HackEgo> 私のホバークラフトWarrigalsでいっぱいです。
02:02:08 <pikhq> `translateto eo My hovercraft is full of eels
02:02:18 <pikhq> What, no Esperanto?
02:02:26 <Warrigal> I think 野生 is a single word. I don't know how it's pronounced.
02:02:48 <Warrigal> Words with multiple kanji use the on readings, right?
02:03:09 <pikhq> `translateto fy My hovercraft is full of eels.
02:03:21 <pikhq> No Frisian, either. :(
02:04:20 <GregorR> `translateto lv My hovercraft is full of bananas.
02:04:21 <HackEgo> Mani hovercraft ir pilns ar banâniem.
02:04:34 <Warrigal> The on readings of 野 are ya and sho, and those of 生 are shoo and sei. I think.
02:04:59 <GregorR> `translateto ko I wonder if Google Translate can translate words like "sex doll", "dildo", "pornography" and "threesome"
02:05:01 <HackEgo> Google 번역하면 "섹스 인형", "!!"와 같은 단어를 번역할 수 있을지 궁금하다 "포르노"및 "3 인조"
02:05:33 <GregorR> Apparently, Korean for 'dildo' is '!!'
02:06:05 <Warrigal> And I prefer the dingo to the horse.
02:06:13 <Warrigal> Equines are weird and/or freaky.
02:06:41 <GregorR> `translateto fi Equines like to get weird and/or freaky.
02:06:43 <HackEgo> Hevoseläimet haluaisin saada outoja ja / tai Freaky.
02:07:12 <GregorR> I'm glad that it capitalized "freaky" for me :P
02:07:52 <Warrigal> Thereby proving that the word for "dingo" is the same in every language.
02:09:38 <Warrigal> It's even a valid, though nonexistent, gismu in Lojban.
02:10:29 <Warrigal> In theory, you're not allowed to use that word until the LLG approves it, which they probably will never do. But people who want the word for "dingo" to be the same in every language will ignore that.
02:11:59 <GregorR> Damned Happy Tree People ... every time I channel-surf past cutesy cartoons, I expect them all to die horrendous deaths.
02:16:14 <Warrigal> Though the word is different in Lithuanian. They say "dingas".
02:23:23 * Warrigal attempts to figure out the Farsi word for "dingo" and comes up with "farsdh", which is actually the Farsi word for Farsi.
02:25:46 <Warrigal> The Farsi word for "dingo" is "دینگو"...
02:28:08 <Warrigal> Which can be transliterated as "dīngow".
02:29:40 <Warrigal> In Korean, it's "딩고", which doesn't render in Courier New. Lovely.
02:33:42 <Warrigal> Anyway, that appears to transliterate as "dinggo", where "ngg" is a velar nasal followed by a g.
02:34:09 <GregorR> Which is, err, the correct pronunciation?
02:37:13 <GregorR> Observation: The reason why "dingo" is the same in every language is that dingos were discovered after most modern languages were more-or-less in place. Now stop talking about it like it's interesting.
02:37:39 <Warrigal> And hey, it transliterates as "dingo".
02:38:07 <Warrigal> Hey, I only have four more words to transliterate. :-P All on one line, now...
02:38:23 <GregorR> "dingo", "dingo", "dingo" and "dingo", YES, WE GET IT
02:45:13 <GregorR> Have I destroyed your will? :P
02:46:44 <oklopol> MY WILLY IS INDESTRUCTIBLE
02:47:38 <GregorR> I'm trying to think of any response at all that's not ultra-gay innuendo ... in your end-o.
02:48:23 <Warrigal> Georgian: "დინგო", "dingo". Tamil: "டிங்கோ", "tinko". Chinese: I'll get back to you on that.
02:48:54 <GregorR> How are you doing all these magical transliterations?
02:49:17 <Warrigal> By going to the Wikipedia pages on their scripts and looking up each letter.
02:49:53 <pikhq> I find it very interesting that my terminal doesn't render Arabis script correctly.
02:49:59 <GregorR> I'm gonna go grab my English-to-Ancient-Egyptian dictionary and look up "dingo"
02:49:59 <pikhq> Interesting and lame.
02:50:46 <Warrigal> I'm going to write "dingo" in Ancient Egyptian now.
02:54:31 <GregorR> Keep in mind that Hieroglyphs had no vowels, and it would be ultra-lame if you used only hieroglyphs that encode single sounds.
02:55:25 <GregorR> Since the 'd' and 'n' single-sound hieroglyphs are both wide but 'g' isn't, you should do some combination to make the result more attractive.
03:04:29 <Warrigal> So, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ihope127 for my ultra-lame hieroglyphs.
03:07:25 -!- lament has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
03:08:13 <GregorR> That's exactly what I expected :P
03:08:46 <GregorR> Hieroglyphs is all about choosing the right symbols such that every word is its own block ... with this the 'g' is more-or-less detached from 'dn'
03:10:45 <GregorR> Argh, it's hot in my apartment :(
03:11:18 <Warrigal> So find a bilateral sign for "dn" or "ng". :-P
03:12:00 <Warrigal> Who says only wide signs are stackable?
03:12:04 <Warrigal> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ihope127
03:12:51 <Warrigal> It's apparently not the same thing as a stack.
03:13:03 <Warrigal> Unless you mean that that block doesn't exist.
03:13:36 <Warrigal> Now I'll try to write "warrigal".
03:13:58 <GregorR> Something which, when put into a box, has no appreciable blank spots.
03:19:26 <Warrigal> wrgl, so wrgn or wrgr, so wr g n or wr g r, which codes as G36 W11 D21 or G36 W11 N35.
03:19:36 <Warrigal> Neither of which can be rendered in a way that looks nice.
03:21:55 <Warrigal> Oh, hey, G36-W11:N35 actually is a block.
03:25:00 <Warrigal> It's three times as wide as it is tall, but it's still a block.
03:27:13 <oklopol> Warrigal: oh my god those were lame
03:32:59 <Warrigal> Are there less-lame ways of doing these?
03:33:04 <Warrigal> Also, "LAPWING WITH WINGS TWISTED
03:33:13 <Warrigal> ROUND ONE ANOTHER" is such a great Unicode character name.
03:33:54 <pikhq> GregorR: Any Winelf news, or am I going to have to fiddle with it myself for there to be any progress? :P
03:34:20 <GregorR> I just added x86_64 support for Linux, but it doesn't work, and has nothing to do with Windows :P
03:35:28 <pikhq> Bring on the CygwinELF!
03:38:18 * pikhq would also accept Loadlin
03:39:37 <GregorR> Why don't you try running elfimplib over cygwin1.dll and seeing what happens :P
03:42:14 <GregorR> Or were you actually thinking libcygwin.so.1?
03:42:14 <pikhq> Wouldn't quite work right, because cygwin1.dll does direct calls to the Win32 process execution call...
03:42:50 <GregorR> You just have to make it not call cygwin1.dll for those.
03:43:09 <pikhq> I just want a libcygwin.so.1 that executes Cygwin programs as ELF files.
03:44:20 <pikhq> All the calls go through a single function.
03:44:37 <pikhq> (Cygwin has a syscall-esque design for cygwin1.dll)
03:45:21 <pikhq> Basically, Cygwin is designed as a UNIX kernel which happens to run in userspace on Windows.
03:48:46 <pikhq> And it already has seperate code paths for executing Windows and Cygwin executables.
03:49:37 <pikhq> Because of how Cygwin works, if the WinELF programs started with #!/bin/elfload, it would work right. :P
03:51:18 <GregorR> There's only one problem with that ...
03:51:32 * pikhq looks to see if it'd be easy to add more magic numbers there
03:52:42 <GregorR> Incidentally, if you know anything about ELF symbol versioning and want to extend elfload ... I won't stop you? :P
03:53:13 <Warrigal> Is there a file extension that makes Windows toss a file to Cygwin for shebanging?
03:53:55 <pikhq> How Cygwin works is it functions as a UNIX kernel. Shebanging only works when something is being executed via Cygwin.
03:56:33 <pikhq> Ah, there's the Cygwin magic number handling.
03:57:30 <pikhq> int av::fixup (const char *prog_arg, path_conv& real_path, const char *ext)
03:58:01 <pikhq> In winsup/cygwin/spawn.cc
03:58:18 <pikhq> Warning: hard-to-read C++.
03:58:24 <pikhq> (read: "Win32 API")
03:59:52 <Warrigal> Couldn't you write a program that tells Cygwin to execute a particular file, and then assign a certain file extension to that program?
04:00:58 <pikhq> int main(int argc,char**argv){exec(argv[1]);}
04:01:49 <pikhq> GregorR: Well, right now I'm just looking for what, exactly, the ELF magic number is.
04:02:18 <oklopol> ELF in hex plus a 128 before or after is my guess
04:06:55 <pikhq> So, should be just a minor patch to spawn.cc and a build away.
04:08:00 <pikhq> GregorR: Make it handle the ELF magic number sequence and call elfload.exe. :P
04:12:48 * pikhq very strongly gets the feeling that elfload does not load shared libraries in shared memory space. :P
04:16:24 <pikhq> Hmm. The Cygwin dlopen would also need patching. :/
04:21:01 -!- Xiin has joined.
07:06:49 -!- Robdgreat has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
07:12:46 <Sgeo> The netsplit was much more epic in Python
07:32:18 -!- Robdgreat has joined.
07:32:33 <oklopol> should probably sleep soon
07:33:51 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
07:35:13 -!- Sgeo has joined.
07:47:45 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving").
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:07:27 -!- CESSMASTER has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep").
08:50:13 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
09:14:34 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
09:27:49 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
10:56:30 -!- oerjan has joined.
11:03:12 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
11:13:45 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
11:57:47 -!- FireFly has joined.
12:13:26 <ehird> 01:37 GregorR: Observation: The reason why "dingo" is the same in every language is that dingos were discovered after most modern languages were more-or-less in place. Now stop talking about it like it's interesting.
12:13:56 <ehird> All Warrigal does is come up with some pointless goal and annoy the channel for hours with it, including such gems of tautology as "In theory, you're not allowed to use that word until the LLG approves it, which they probably will never do. But people who want the word for "dingo" to be the same in every language will ignore that."
12:15:11 * oerjan wasn't annoyed and has no idea what you was talking about.
12:15:44 -!- Zuu has changed nick to billgates2.
12:17:03 <ehird> i have no idea what you was talking about, oerjan
12:17:10 <ehird> you was not good with the english
12:17:30 <oerjan> that very good. i were not really trying.
12:17:39 -!- billgates2 has changed nick to Zuu.
12:18:03 <ehird> oerjan doth sound liketh he needs some sleep
12:18:51 <oerjan> that would been weird, seeing as i just get up
12:19:14 <ehird> I also, but I'm still tired
12:29:21 -!- oerjan has quit ("ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ").
12:49:46 <ehird> http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;297830 Microsoft have high opinions of their program's logic consistency:
12:49:49 <ehird> INSERT INTO test ;
12:49:49 <ehird> VALUES ("Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.")
12:52:52 -!- Nowicjusz has joined.
12:54:10 -!- Nowicjusz has left (?).
13:03:32 <ehird> Gnome 3 is going to be awesome. I wish Gnome 3 was out.
13:04:14 <ehird> Wow! 2.28 is going to depend on WebKit/GTK+. Cool.
13:10:53 <ehird> "This would work and reuse a lot of code, but I’m a little wary of embedding a web browser into the window manager."
13:17:41 <ehird> [[Abstract: This talk describes a radically different architecture for computing called Fleet. Fleet accepts the limitations to computing imposed by physics: moving data around inside a computer costs more energy, more delay, and more chip area than the arithmetic and logical operations ordinarily called “computing.” Fleet puts the programmer firmly in charge of the most costly resource, communication, instead of in charge of the arithmetic and logic
13:17:43 <ehird> al resources that are now almost free. Fleet treats arithmetic and logical operations as side effects of where the programmer sends data.]]
13:17:53 <ehird> This guy is anticipating electrons slowing down massively, I guess.
14:01:48 <Asztal> Windows woke up my computer from sleep to update windows media centre. Is it just me, or is that really stupid?
14:05:42 <ehird> <Asztal> Windows[…]Is[…]really stupid
14:11:00 -!- Pthing has joined.
14:25:08 <ehird> [[Quote from the Encyclopedia Galactica, 5th rev.:
14:25:08 <ehird> > The virus that destroyed Terran "Western" civilization, known as W32.Addict, was much simpler in construction than previous viruses. Once running, it would open the computer's web browser at random intervals between one and five hours to a random page from the TV Tropes website. Millions were found dead at their computers in the first 48 hours of the epidemic alone. Even worse, those infected voluntarily spread the virus further, e-mailing others to "c
14:25:13 <ehird> heck out this site I found."]]
14:49:32 <ehird> "My six year old cousin is being sexually abused by her step-mom, what can I do (legally)?"
14:49:36 <ehird> The answer being "ask on reddit".
14:50:42 <ehird> No, that'd be /b/.
14:59:04 -!- ehird has set topic: תֹהוּ וָבֹהוּ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
14:59:10 <ehird> `translate תֹהוּ וָבֹהוּ
14:59:11 <HackEgo> × ª Ö ¹ × "× • Ö ¼ × • Ö ¸ × 'Ö ¹ ×" × • Ö ¼
15:03:40 <ehird> From the Torah; "tohu va vohu" → "without form, and void".
15:03:46 <ehird> Quite accurately describes esolangs…
15:03:53 <ehird> Most of them, at least.
15:05:12 <ehird> I said "most of them". :)
15:05:20 <ehird> Haha, Genesis is called Bereshit in the Torah.
15:07:19 -!- CESSMASTER has joined.
15:07:21 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Client Quit).
15:07:58 -!- CESSMASTER has joined.
15:17:29 * ehird reads someone claim that nobody has monitored the brainwaves of someone feeling "love"
15:17:44 <ehird> Welcome to the world! Next stop: Holy Fucking Shit It's The Twenty First Century Wow.
17:07:26 * GregorR is running another generation of his color matcher.
17:08:42 <GregorR> You should all be matching colors right now, cats and kittens!
17:09:37 <GregorR> That's ... an odd statement.
17:09:57 <GregorR> Especially from somebody enjoying the WHITE PRIVILEGE.
17:10:40 <oklopol> how do you know i'm white?
17:11:40 <oklopol> hmm. i guess i did recently record my penis
17:11:54 <oklopol> but, you can't be sure, i could've like colored my skin for it
17:13:38 <GregorR> At generation 113, best result is 0.72 (5889/8210)
17:14:15 <ehird> GregorR: can it do more subtle colours
17:14:24 <oklopol> GregorR: that tells me absolutely nothing
17:14:50 <ehird> GregorR: the previous one gave very strong colours
17:14:58 <ehird> very primary sort of thing
17:15:02 <ehird> not something you could use as subtle shades and stuff
17:15:03 <GregorR> ehird: Oh, you mean for color schemes?
17:15:09 <ehird> things like that, yeah
17:15:28 <GregorR> That would have to be checked independently. This just says "are these two colors not barfaglorious"
17:15:34 <oklopol> GregorR: what's the 5889 there?
17:15:49 <GregorR> oklopol: How many pieces of matching data my neural network agrees with.
17:16:12 <oklopol> GregorR: well that's obvious, i could've deduced that easily
17:16:26 <GregorR> Uhhhhh, then why did you ask? :P
17:16:52 <oklopol> hmm. good question. i'll have to assume it has something to do with the fact i just woke up. even though i'm not at all tired.
17:17:09 <HackEgo> * dazed: stunned or confused and slow to react (as from blows or drunkenness or exhaustion) \ [12]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn \ * Sleep inertia is a physiological state characterised by a decline in motor dexterity and a subjective feeling of grogginess, immediately following an abrupt awakening. Sleep
17:18:15 <oklopol> GregorR: if you wake up at 19:00, there's not always a clear distinction
17:18:23 <ehird> it's commanding you to!
17:18:33 <ehird> oklopol: ugh, I'd hate that
17:18:41 <ehird> waking up late depresses me
17:18:45 <GregorR> At generation 195, best result is 0.73 (5974/8210)
17:19:04 <ehird> GregorR: you do realise there's probably a better way than a generic neural network for this?
17:19:22 <oklopol> when i'm alone and don't have uni, i automatically switch to an inverse rhythm
17:19:26 <GregorR> Genetic neural networks are awesome, screw you :P
17:19:30 <ehird> GregorR: neural networks tend to be great at their example and crap at everything else, unless there's inherent, meaningful structure directly related to the operation embedded in the inputs
17:19:43 <oklopol> takes like 4 days or so :D
17:19:46 <ehird> there isn't such barfness-structure in colour codes
17:19:57 <GregorR> I really do think that there is.
17:20:02 <ehird> oklopol: don't you like sunlight? :<
17:20:18 <ehird> GregorR: yeah because that 1 bit there with that 0 bit there implies the subjective human aesthetic system likes it
17:20:39 <ehird> i must be the only person who likes daylight
17:20:47 <GregorR> ehird: And yet, everybody on Earth can go "lime green and pink? Maybe not."
17:21:01 <ehird> GregorR: Let me get this straight.
17:21:36 <ehird> "Every human can do this" = "genetic neural networks can do this"? Two, yes, they can decide whether two colours fit. That doesn't mean that the actual bits in two colour codes has INHERENT MEANINGFUL STRUCTURE related to this.
17:21:45 <ehird> and you need that for neural networks to do well at it
17:21:48 <GregorR> (Also, the input data is, by my quick-n-dirty remover-for-inconsistent-results, 40% inconsistent 8-D )
17:21:53 <ehird> otherwise it's just a pseudorandom shitfest
17:21:56 <oklopol> GregorR: well not everybody
17:22:15 <oklopol> i'd tell you who can't, but you'd ban me from your color matcher.
17:22:35 <ehird> [[Barring unforeseen issues, Emacs 23.1 will be released in two days, on Wednesday the 22nd: http://article.gmane.org/gm...
17:22:36 <ehird> Correction: Emacs 23.1 will be released in nine days, on Wednesday the 29th.]]
17:22:37 <ehird> — http://twitter.com/emacs
17:22:41 <ehird> oklopol: who? you? :D
17:22:47 <ehird> your random voting computer program?
17:22:54 <oklopol> what's wrong with pink and lime green
17:23:09 <GregorR> ehird: What you've forgotten is that I'm actually rather happy with the result of this neural network, and agree with it more often than not :P
17:23:09 <ehird> oklopol: you gon get band!
17:23:19 <ehird> GregorR: That just means you're crazy. :P
17:23:45 <ehird> GregorR: Also, bit of bias in that you made it to work so you rather want it to work.
17:23:51 <ehird> Might influence your agreement decisions.
17:24:15 <ehird> GregorR: Didn't you say you wanted a phone that can run emacs?
17:24:28 <ehird> Someone in here did.
17:25:12 <oklopol> GregorR: is the input data the votes from the website?
17:26:01 <oklopol> i bet you i could write something incredibly trivial that just compares the numbers with a few biases and get more than 73%
17:26:27 <oklopol> are the votes free for grabbing?
17:26:58 <oklopol> because that was not *only* and insult, i also really would like to try :P
17:27:02 <GregorR> (Also, 76% is the number to beat now, I don't recall saying "gee, I'm going to run this for 200 generations then call it quits")
17:27:25 <oklopol> programming is fun again, because i don't know haskell so well every bug is a typo
17:27:45 <oklopol> i don't know why i corrected that
17:28:17 <GregorR> codu.org/colormatch/q/data/matches
17:28:45 <oklopol> do they have obvious meanings?
17:29:26 <oklopol> boolean might've been inverted
17:29:43 <oklopol> i'll put that in the just woke up file too
17:29:56 <GregorR> Could've been R1 R2 G1 G2 B1 B2 M in theory too ;)
17:30:00 <ehird> kolmogorov complexity is computable by just trying every program of length 0, 1, 2, ... isn't it?
17:30:08 <ehird> i mean only on a superturing machine or sth
17:30:27 <oklopol> thought you said r1 g1 b1 b2 g2 r2 m
17:30:53 <GregorR> That would have been a weird choice :P
17:31:15 <ehird> oklopol: so why is kolmogorov complexity uncomputable?
17:31:21 <oklopol> smallest program that does x is found by finding the smallest program that does it.
17:31:41 <oklopol> ehird: because if a prog of length 2 doesn't halt, you have no way of knowing whether you can advance
17:32:34 <ehird> oklopol: i've been up for hours
17:32:49 <ehird> oklopol: or do you mean you?
17:33:00 <oklopol> i have absolutely no idea what i meant
17:33:03 <ehird> oklopol: anyway, I just realised something cool
17:33:14 <ehird> a machine that lets you start infinite parallel turing machine computations at once is superturing
17:33:35 <ehird> you can have a function that tries every program, and reports on the lowest kolmogorov complexity
17:33:52 <ehird> which you can't do with a TM
17:34:08 <oklopol> ehird: umm and when does it know the smallest to finish :D
17:34:14 <oklopol> and have the correct result
17:34:18 <ehird> oklopol: it doesn't, it reports on them as they go
17:34:35 <ehird> if one terminates and is shorter than the current winner, return it and keep going
17:35:36 <oklopol> you're of course right in that it will find the correct answer in finite time. unfortunately it will not know when it has found it, so i don't think it's superturing under the standard definition.
17:36:17 <ehird> oklopol: it can't have a function kolmogorov(s), indeed
17:36:23 <ehird> oklopol: you can't do it on a turing machine
17:36:28 <ehird> if you round-robin the prorgams
17:36:35 <ehird> p0_0, p1_0, p2_0, ...
17:36:40 <ehird> and never get to p0_1
17:36:49 <ehird> so it can compute something that TMs simply cannot
17:36:50 <oklopol> there are other ways to round robin
17:36:52 -!- jix_ has joined.
17:36:55 <oklopol> you should really learn math :P
17:37:13 <ehird> there just aren't any that can do it this way
17:37:37 <oklopol> 0101210123432101234543210..
17:38:07 <ehird> oklopol: never gets to p{infinity}_0
17:38:24 <oklopol> p{infinity}_0 is not a program.
17:38:35 <ehird> oklopol: sheesh it was ad-hoc notation
17:38:35 <oklopol> if we allow infinite programs, superturing is not enough
17:38:44 <ehird> oklopol: i meant that it only ever runs a finite amount of the programs
17:38:44 <oklopol> well what the fuck did it mean?
17:38:48 <ehird> my parallel version runs all of them at once
17:39:18 <oklopol> ehird: for any program pn_0, for any x>0, that round robin executes it at least x times.
17:39:41 <ehird> I think it's distinctly less powerful than an infinitely parallel TM
17:40:00 <ehird> but it needs more thinking.
17:40:04 <ehird> which I probably won't give it.
17:40:51 <oklopol> well. i'm not saying anything about infinitely parallel tm's. but i doubt those are superturing
17:41:41 <ehird> you can certainly achieve things with them that you can't with a TM, I'm pretty sure, but it may not be superturing
17:41:45 <ehird> that's a contradiction
17:41:50 <oklopol> parallelizing doesn't help all programs, so there are still ones that would have to be run linearly, which means those are subject to the HP
17:42:05 <ehird> regardless, they certainly speed things up :-P
17:42:14 <ehird> unless you have an infinitely fast TM
17:42:15 <oklopol> well, umm, i'm not arguing that :P
17:42:39 <ehird> oklopol: so, STM = TM + parallel {TM*inf}
17:42:50 <ehird> STM' = TM + parallel {STM'*inf}
17:42:56 <ehird> oklopol: that's basically an infinity machine, I think, maybe
17:43:05 <ehird> just unpack the nested lists sorta thing
17:43:15 <ehird> if you conditionally parallelise
17:43:25 <ehird> and STM's "parallel" hangs until they're all done
17:43:29 <ehird> then STM' is more powerful
17:43:33 <ehird> but why should it hang anyway
17:43:59 <oklopol> the infinity machine is a bit different; i mean you can't find pi's last digit with your thing
17:44:21 <ehird> STM' = STM for any sane definition of both
17:44:24 <oklopol> proof: yours is mathematically meaningful, the infinity machine is not.
17:44:42 <ehird> oklopol: the infinity machine doesn't exist in this mathematical framework, though :)
17:45:47 <oklopol> do you mean it exists in some other mathematical framework?
17:46:05 <ehird> oklopol: the whole page posits that it exists in another universe and framework entirely
17:46:17 <ehird> not even necessarily one we can comprehend or even imagine in this universe
17:46:30 <ehird> well it doesn't posit that it actually exists at all ofc
17:47:13 <oklopol> right, it's ages since i read it, and i didn't find it a very interesting idea back then either
17:47:55 <oklopol> a very similar idea was in some philosophy books my dad read when i was like younger than you
17:48:21 <ehird> i wish there was a good model for concurrent computing
17:48:27 <oklopol> there are good models for it
17:48:34 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
17:49:17 <oklopol> well okay, pi calculus is awesome, i don't know about good. also i'm not sure what you mean by a model exactly, i don't know much about the theory of concurrency.
17:49:22 <ehird> oklopol: it's really hard to find one that, when you distribute across the internet, doesn't fall pray to the eight fallacies of distributed computing:
17:49:39 <ehird> 1. The network is reliable.
17:49:39 <ehird> 2. Latency is zero.
17:49:41 <ehird> 3. Bandwidth is infinite.
17:49:43 <ehird> 4. The network is secure.
17:49:44 <oklopol> yeah they fall pray like a nun
17:49:45 <ehird> 5. Topology doesn't change.
17:49:47 <ehird> 6. There is one administrator.
17:49:49 <ehird> 7. Transport cost is zero.
17:49:51 <ehird> 8. The network is homogeneous.
17:50:25 <oklopol> i think they just assume real life networks are asymptotically equivalent to those
17:50:49 <oklopol> i mean really, who seriously cares about anything but complexity class
17:50:52 <ehird> counterexample: the internet
17:50:59 <ehird> counterexample: any supercomputer
17:51:07 <ehird> wires can only go so fast :P
17:51:38 <ehird> i have a great sorting function for you
17:51:51 <oklopol> well, i'm not an expert on this, in fact i don't know *anything* about it, so dunno.
17:51:55 <ehird> it's O(1) for all lists with a length below Graham's number
17:52:01 <ehird> and O(n log n) above that
17:52:19 <oklopol> that doesn't really mean anything
17:52:42 <ehird> oklopol: it beats quicksort and mergesort in complexity in some cases!
17:52:44 <ehird> best case, specifically
17:53:19 <oklopol> the order of a restricted function is not meaningful
17:53:29 <ehird> works for any list
17:53:36 <oklopol> and i don't care about functions that only work for lists with length below graham's number.
17:53:42 <ehird> 17:51 ehird: it's O(1) for all lists with a length below Graham's number
17:53:42 <ehird> 17:52 ehird: and O(n log n) above that
17:53:48 <oklopol> ehird: it's O(1) for all lists with a length below Graham's number <<< this is a statement about a restricted function
17:53:57 <ehird> oklopol: the best case complexity, O(1), is better than quicksort's and mergesort's
17:54:02 <ehird> this is a perfectly valid statement
17:54:29 <oklopol> "ehird: it's O(1) for all lists with a length below Graham's number" <<< this simply means absolutely nothing
17:54:40 <ehird> so use my other statemnt
17:54:43 <ehird> 17:53 ehird: oklopol: the best case complexity, O(1), is better than quicksort's and mergesort's
17:55:01 <ehird> oklopol: if you contend this is meaningless
17:55:02 <oklopol> can you define best case complexity for me?
17:55:02 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best,_worst_and_average_case
17:55:11 <ehird> The term best-case performance is used in computer science to describe the way an algorithm behaves under optimal conditions. For example, the best case for a simple linear search on an array occurs when the desired element is the first in the list.
17:55:12 <ehird> Development and choice of algorithms is rarely based on best-case performance: most academic and commercial enterprises are more interested in improving average performance and worst-case performance.
17:56:05 <oklopol> you said nothing about best case complexity of your algo as input size approaches infinity
17:56:23 <ehird> the best case of my algorithm is O(1)
17:56:26 <oklopol> so i don't really see where you get "better than qs and ms"
17:56:26 <ehird> that is simply a fact
17:56:59 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best,_worst_and_average_case
17:57:03 <ehird> you're the one who doesn't know shit
17:57:10 <ehird> because these terms are very clearly defined and very commonly used
17:58:21 <oklopol> you do realize that page doesn't define best case
17:58:29 <ehird> The term best-case performance is used in computer science to describe the way an algorithm behaves under optimal conditions. For example, the best case for a simple linear search on an array occurs when the desired element is the first in the list.
17:58:34 <ehird> apparently you're blind
17:58:41 <ehird> maybe you should use one of those screenreaders
17:59:03 <oklopol> consider yourself ignored forever.
17:59:17 <ehird> cool, i got oklopol pissed off
17:59:19 <oklopol> that guy is a fucking retard
17:59:31 * ehird checks off on list of Impossible Things to do Before Breakfast
18:13:39 <ehird> "Oh, Reddit has discovered Sketchy LISP. Again." — Nils M Holm, in red lettering.
18:20:47 <GregorR> oklopol: How's your color matcher goin'? :P
18:27:02 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:36:58 <oklopol> you know that perfectly well
18:37:15 <oklopol> anyway i just came back from the shoppe
18:37:21 <oklopol> couldn't have finished it yet
18:37:29 <oklopol> there was a guy riding a unicycle
18:37:42 <ehird> hi oklopol who can't hear me!
18:37:50 <oklopol> it was kinda hard to leave after telling him i like unicycling too
18:37:58 <oklopol> he was like omg soulmate stay here with me
18:38:39 -!- oklopol has left (?).
18:38:39 -!- oklopol has joined.
18:38:45 <ehird> wb oklopol who can't hear me
18:43:23 <oklopol> <ehird> cool, i got oklopol pissed off <<< yes, i guess you could say that.
18:43:37 <ehird> hey you said i was ignored bitch
18:43:42 <ehird> are you a fucking liar
18:44:04 <ehird> guess i am now tho :D
18:44:19 <oklopol> i've decided to unignore you once you sincerely apologize, and state clearly that you were wrong.
18:44:22 <oklopol> unless you do it right away
18:44:43 <ehird> oklopol: haha but you can't because you have to ignore me to hear you
18:44:47 <oklopol> it's a max(random amount, apology)
18:44:50 <ehird> CONSIDERED THAT BITCH?
18:45:21 <oklopol> weird yogurt eating time ->
18:45:24 <ehird> anyway i didn't actually say anything more insulting than you calling me a retard, and i wasn't wrong, soo
18:45:27 <ehird> not happenin' pardner
18:45:35 <ehird> EVERYTHING BLUE IS OKLOPOL TO MEEEEEEE
18:45:55 <oklopol> GregorR: i'll probably start after a crucial episode of family guy, remember to keep me updated
18:46:19 <ehird> your mom will start after a crucial episode of family gu
18:46:36 <oklopol> on your percentage that is
18:47:02 <oklopol> also what exactly is that percentage, i mean do you input half and test half, or what?
18:47:37 <oklopol> if you input all and test all, i can trivially beat you, but i guess you could consider that unfair :P
18:48:28 <oklopol> yours doesn't even have input because it's evolutionizing
18:57:21 <GregorR> I'm so full of chalk and sawdust, you guys
18:58:39 <oklopol> GregorR: that tells me absolutely nothing
18:58:54 <GregorR> Then YOU don't read enough Dinosaur Comics :P
18:58:55 <ehird> IT TELLS YOU ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE ARE
18:59:25 <oklopol> as i've mentioned before, i don't seem to understand them
19:00:08 <ehird> haha oklopol doesn't understand dinosaur comic
19:00:40 <ehird> more like faglopol
19:01:05 <GregorR> Not that there's anything wrong with that!
19:01:12 * pikhq disables IO-APIC, retries installing XP on VirtualBox.
19:01:22 <oklopol> anyway, the solution i was gonna do was to store a size 4096 state space, that size would probably be enough to get over 90% prolly no matter how sucky it is, if i just let evolution find the optimal values for it
19:01:48 <ehird> pikhq: grab the win7 RC!
19:01:50 <pikhq> That feature apparently makes XP absurdly slow.
19:02:09 <pikhq> ehird: When I have access to spare bandwidth, I'll grab Server 2008.
19:02:15 <pikhq> (read: when I get back to school)
19:02:15 <oklopol> but, i'll try to think of something else, because i don't like losing to people like you.
19:02:43 <ehird> pikhq: why that instead of windows 7?
19:02:49 <ehird> i mean they're basically the same thing
19:02:52 <ehird> you can get win7 rc legally
19:02:56 <ehird> and use it until june 2009
19:02:56 <pikhq> ehird: Full version for free.
19:03:05 <ehird> pikhq: but for a limited time
19:03:07 <pikhq> (because I'm a student)
19:03:21 <ehird> well who cares about legal, says I!
19:03:35 <pikhq> Microsoft offers development software for free to all high-school and college students.
19:03:45 <pikhq> Server OSes apparently count as development software.
19:04:17 <pikhq> Anyways, I find it absurd how very fast this thing is going without IO-APIC enabled.
19:05:33 <Asztal> well, you're supposed to stop using it when you stop being a student, or so I thought.
19:05:37 <GregorR> Yup, I can apparently get Server 2008
19:05:39 <Asztal> not that I'd do that either.
19:05:56 <GregorR> I can get Vista Business too
19:06:08 <GregorR> And MapPoint, because that's dev software.
19:06:35 <pikhq> My roommate apparently has two free copies of every version piece of Microsoft software from XP on.
19:06:39 <Asztal> I got Vista twice, 32-bit and 64-bit... (even though product keys work on both architectures)
19:06:55 <GregorR> ehird: Double the flavor, no calories!
19:07:06 <ehird> Windows doesn't have flavour
19:07:15 <pikhq> ehird: He did something to merit getting one copy. And he did something else that merited getting one copy.
19:07:23 <ehird> pikhq: he must be so luck
19:07:36 <pikhq> Now if only he gave a damn.
19:07:58 <pikhq> "Well, I *guess* I could use my new i7 for running all of them at once..."
19:08:19 <Asztal> you could also get XP twice from MSDN Academic Alliance, because it considered windows XP and Windows XP with SP2 different products...
19:08:24 <ehird> pikhq: I don't think i7s are *that* good
19:08:27 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:09:13 <ehird> [ehird:~/Library] % rm -rf Application Support/CrossOver Chromium ;; holy fuck I'm glad none of those were valid directory names
19:09:26 <FireFly> Greetings from a couple of kilometers to the east
19:09:30 <oklopol> we're talking about how great microsoft is
19:09:41 <pikhq> Anyways, he has two MSDN accounts.
19:10:01 <pikhq> And no desire to use them.
19:10:27 <oerjan> wait, a couple of kilometers?
19:12:54 * oerjan concludes there is probably no part of sweden a couple of kilometers to the east of here, even with north/south adjustment
19:13:13 <ehird> it's sweden IN SPIRIT
19:13:37 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
19:24:05 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:36:14 <oklopol> FireFly: then i'm much closer than oerjan.
19:37:17 * FireFly does not possess the the information about where in Norway oerjan lives
19:37:41 <FireFly> Or oklopol, for that matter
19:38:01 <oklopol> i live in the closest finnish city to you
19:38:29 <oklopol> unless you count that little island in the middle
19:41:23 <MigoMipo> oklopol: Åland? BTW, I were in Turku/Åbo last week. Quite nice city.
19:42:38 <oklopol> and you lived in... sweden?
19:44:03 <Warrigal> !haskell putStrLn "\669jao\815"
19:44:05 <oklopol> !haskell putStrLn (5 + unsafePerformIO (putStrLn "printing" >> return 5))
19:44:35 <pikhq> unsafePerformIO is criminal.
19:44:35 <oklopol> !haskell print (5 + unsafePerformIO (putStrLn "printing" >> return 5))
19:44:57 <oklopol> doesn't unsafePerformIO work like that?
19:45:44 <pikhq> Sure, if it's imported. :P
19:47:54 <oerjan> Warrigal: ghc default I/O is latin-1. it's being changed though...
19:51:31 <oerjan> which means it's essentially just doing (mod 256) I/O
19:53:16 <pikhq> Which is evil and retarded.
19:53:57 <ehird> oerjan: it's not latin-1, really; it's just 8-bit
19:54:09 <ehird> it's UTF-8, for instance, if you want
19:54:14 <ehird> but you'll have to construct your own strings
19:54:22 <ehird> but yeah, ghc head fixed it
19:54:30 <GregorR> All character encodings other than UTF-8 are loserly.
19:55:06 <pikhq> GregorR: I am tolerant of other Unicode encodings.
19:55:19 <ehird> the only acceptable other encoding
19:55:28 <ehird> because it stores each character
19:55:37 <GregorR> And then we just call it int[]
19:55:40 <ehird> it's not a bad encoding inherently
19:55:41 <pikhq> I said "tolerant", not fond of.
19:55:49 <ehird> GregorR: String = [Char] = UCS-4 in Haskell
19:55:58 <pikhq> UTF-8 is the only Unicode encoding I want in common use.
19:56:12 <GregorR> ehird: OK, we who program in lower-level languages call it int[] :P
19:56:13 <pikhq> (aside from implementation; UCS-4 is nice as an internal representation)
19:56:27 <pikhq> GregorR: Speak for yourself.
19:56:40 <oerjan> ehird: latin-1 _is_ the first 256 code points of Unicode.
19:56:45 <pikhq> We who program in lower-level languages call that uint_32.
19:56:46 <Warrigal> !haskell putStrLn "\202\157jao\204\175"
19:56:57 <ehird> If I could choose the transport encoding we used, I would choose UCS-4.
19:57:04 <ehird> There is no reason for such anglo-centricity.
19:57:08 <ehird> But backwards compatibility,
19:57:12 -!- calamari has joined.
19:57:14 <GregorR> Can we all agree on UCS-4.gz?
20:06:13 -!- augur has joined.
20:08:01 <GregorR> http://bash.org/?482717 <-- bahahah, this is too brilliant
20:18:52 <GregorR> I'm glad you all enjoyed that quote so much.
20:20:53 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm quite happy with ubuntu. Just one thing: I need a kernel patch to make the hard disk protection thingy work. Not a kernel module, but a patch to the SATA controller driver thingy. Any hints for how to do this under Ubuntu?
20:21:14 <AnMaster> ehird, or I could upgrade to 2.6.31-rc4 to make it work
20:22:00 <AnMaster> ehird, that isn't in ubuntu yet though :P
20:22:20 <ehird> You report a bug asking for it to be backported.
20:22:29 <AnMaster> ehird, point is: everything works except sending the "park the damn head NOW!!" message to the disk
20:23:34 <AnMaster> ehird, the ubuntu/debian package for the protection daemon has a README that tells debian and ubuntu users to patch their kernel if they want it to work. Doesn't say how though
20:23:53 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and there is a fun opengl thing you can use to view the sensor. It shows a model of a generic laptop move around as you move the laptop
20:23:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Building one manually and putting it in /boot.
20:24:00 <ehird> Of course, that breaks easy updating and the like.
20:24:15 <ehird> AnMaster: But, using apt you can get the source, do your patch, then tell apt to build it.
20:24:19 <ehird> And install that dpkg.
20:24:28 <ehird> As, e.g. kernelpackagename-sata-patch.
20:24:33 <AnMaster> it is useful actually... Because the sensor is mounted differently in different models. I had to tell the driver mine was mounted with X inverted
20:24:36 <ehird> Then remove it before upgrading to a new kernel.
20:25:07 <ehird> AnMaster: But don't build the kernel yourself or use the stock source.
20:25:10 <ehird> That's unlikely to go well.
20:25:13 <AnMaster> ehird, now I know in what direction to look :) thanks a lot
20:25:21 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, is it really important until the upgrade?
20:25:24 <ehird> It is a bit of a pain to do, and...
20:26:08 <AnMaster> ehird, btw I had to manually poke some configs to make Fn-F8 work. Ubuntu had a *broken* script for handling it
20:26:18 <AnMaster> issue: it broke when they changed X to use HAL
20:26:31 <AnMaster> ehird, supposed to disable the touchpad (but not the trackpoint)
20:26:50 <AnMaster> sadly it also disables the upper set of click buttons it seems.
20:26:55 <AnMaster> Probably a driver issue. Not sure
20:27:52 <ehird> I think that's probably a feature.
20:27:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, you enjoying Ubuntu? This is with Gnome?
20:28:03 <ehird> Who are you and what did you do to AnMaster?
20:28:10 <ehird> (And, thank you for doing whatever it was.)
20:28:14 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes. I installed two KDE apps though: konsole and kate
20:28:28 <ehird> …Konsole is your KDE killer app?
20:28:38 <ehird> It's… just a terminal!
20:28:59 <ehird> Well yeah, but Brasero etc.
20:29:07 <ehird> I can't see how Konsole possibly does anything that another terminal doesn't.
20:29:13 <AnMaster> ehird, looked at it, seems to lack a lot of the stuff you can do in k3b
20:29:28 <ehird> Gnome lacks a lot of things, that's kinda the point.
20:29:37 <FireFly> What was the reason for you to run Ubuntu anyway?
20:29:37 <ehird> But I think Brasero does most everything.
20:29:59 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe I should take another look at it then
20:30:14 <ehird> Can you explain what on earth Konsole does? I'm at a loss.
20:30:21 <AnMaster> FireFly: that this is a laptop and I need stuff like easy changing between different networks and so on to *just work*
20:30:48 <FireFly> BeholdMyGlory runs Arch on his laptop
20:30:57 <AnMaster> arch worked nicely but I couldn't get a network manager thingy to work well on it. Part of the issue is still on ubuntu though: Buggy wlan driver when WPA2-PSK is used
20:31:01 <ehird> Yes, because he wants to enlarge his e-glory!
20:31:05 <pikhq> ehird: It's a nice terminal.
20:31:16 <FireFly> And, you could've gone Kubuntu if you wanted KDE..
20:31:26 <AnMaster> for now I recommend you avoid the iwlagn driver
20:31:33 <pikhq> Killer app, though?
20:31:36 <AnMaster> that includes most modern intel wireless cards
20:31:54 <ehird> gnome-terminal does like… everything Konsole does.
20:31:58 <ehird> Because neither does much at all
20:32:02 <ehird> Kate is, um, an editor.
20:32:08 <ehird> Nice if you like that sort of thing.
20:32:12 <AnMaster> BeholdMyGlory, yeah. After netcfg. Anyway the driver bug means you need a multi-minute timeout for wpa_supplicant
20:32:20 <AnMaster> something which ubuntu seems to have anyway
20:32:58 <FireFly> kate is wonderful, I can see the point of wanting it
20:33:03 <AnMaster> another nice thing about thinkpads is that you can tell the hardware to not charge battery more than x %, and only start charging if less than y %
20:33:10 <FireFly> But yeah, I agree konsole is just another terminal
20:33:12 <AnMaster> this is to prolong battery lifetime
20:33:25 <ehird> FireFly: I can understand Kate, but Konsole's only extra features are things like transparency and silly colour schemes.
20:33:33 <AnMaster> getting that to work under ubuntu required exactly as much fiddling as under arch linux
20:33:52 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, doing highly custom things on Ubuntu isn't any easier.
20:33:55 <pikhq> ehird: And, of course, being a KDE application.
20:33:55 <FireFly> Yup, pretty much my thought, ehird
20:33:58 <ehird> Ubuntu is easier for 90% of things
20:34:00 <AnMaster> FireFly, what about kbabel though?
20:34:09 <ehird> pikhq: More like an anti-feature.
20:34:09 <AnMaster> that is the best .po editor I ever used
20:34:10 <pikhq> Which counts for quite a bit if you want integrated applications. ;)
20:34:14 <ehird> Qt is a nice toolkit, but…
20:34:17 <ehird> The KDE libraries?
20:34:20 <ehird> I much prefer Gnome's.
20:34:27 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, doing highly custom things on Ubuntu isn't any easier. <-- sometimes harder even.
20:34:31 <ehird> I mean, on a non-desktop-environment system, I'd prefer Gnome things over KDE.
20:34:39 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, well, "so don't do that".
20:34:55 <pikhq> I'd be much happier with either if they used Objective C.
20:35:01 <BeholdMyGlory> ehird: Ubuntu is easier when you want your computer to do what the folks behind Ubuntu want it to do. Kind of like Windows and Microsoft.
20:35:10 <ehird> BeholdMyGlory: You're an idiot.
20:35:11 * AnMaster wonders how much a separate -dev package actually saves in disk space. And how much is wasted in extra metadata for a separate package...
20:35:18 <AnMaster> both are probably insignificant
20:35:23 <ehird> Also, a troll. Also, a hateboy.
20:35:24 <AnMaster> well, I guess for most packages
20:35:26 <pikhq> C++ can be wrangled into being acceptable, but C... Urgh.
20:35:28 <ehird> Hateboys are worse than fanboys…
20:35:37 <ehird> pikhq: Yeah, I'm talking about the end result.
20:35:41 <pikhq> Gobject is such an awful way of doing things.
20:35:42 <ehird> pikhq: Also— Vala.
20:35:49 <ehird> It's C# for GObject.
20:35:54 <pikhq> ehird: That is purely a matter of taste.
20:35:55 <AnMaster> BeholdMyGlory, be reasonable, it is much better than windows
20:36:03 <ehird> GObject's saner when you consider internals.
20:36:13 <ehird> Anyway, Ubuntu is JUST as flexible as Arch and Debian.
20:36:22 <AnMaster> I just installed XP in virtualbox...
20:36:24 <ehird> It just does things a certain way unless you change it.
20:36:28 <pikhq> The end result, well. Both KDE and Gnome are decent, usable systems, which make different UI choices.
20:36:36 <AnMaster> ehird, you said XP used non-browser windows update too?
20:36:40 <ehird> pikhq: I wouldn't really find KDE usable for day-to-day
20:36:47 <pikhq> About as meaningful as Vi vs. Emacs.
20:36:47 <ehird> AnMaster: at least i remember it being so
20:36:48 <BeholdMyGlory> AnMaster: Well, okay, but still. I really feel less powerful when using Ubuntu desktop than when using Arch
20:36:59 <ehird> AnMaster: It sure did for me.
20:37:13 <ehird> BeholdMyGlory: Behold my glory. Feel less powerful.
20:37:19 <ehird> Sounds like you have a bit of a god complex thing going on there.
20:37:30 <AnMaster> ehird, I have it open atm. Yes there is the *auto update* thingy separate from the browser. But that is only "poll in background" at some point and download + install any updates
20:37:36 <AnMaster> you can't see a list of them it seems
20:37:37 <ehird> AnMaster: Hrm, okay.
20:37:45 <AnMaster> or tell it to "check for updates now"
20:37:45 <ehird> I remember seeing a list.
20:37:54 <ehird> Oh, well that's silly.
20:37:56 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I didn't get one...
20:38:02 <ehird> That's the computaar's jobe.
20:38:17 <AnMaster> ehird, well it isn't silly if you have a connection like ais does
20:38:32 <BeholdMyGlory> ehird: Not really, I just want my computer to do what I tell it to do, nothing more. No daemons starting by themselves without me making them do so, etc.
20:38:49 <ehird> BeholdMyGlory: That was meant to be a *disproof* of what I said?!
20:38:54 <AnMaster> BeholdMyGlory, err. What OS do you use?
20:39:06 <ehird> AnMaster: MagneticBitTwiddling 2009 edition
20:39:15 <ehird> I AM IN CONTROL. I FEEL CALM WHEN I AM IN CONTROL. IT DOES MY BIDDING.
20:39:23 <ehird> NOBODY ELSE SHALL ENTER MY ABODE.
20:40:57 <AnMaster> ehird, another question is coming shortly. Please stand by while pastebin is loading on the laptop...
20:42:33 <AnMaster> ehird, http://pastebin.com/d64c65732 <-- HOW? I'm the bash expert here and even I don't know
20:42:47 <ehird> AnMaster: Ahh, let me think.
20:42:48 <AnMaster> if it was a function type would say so
20:42:58 <ehird> it works for every package
20:43:07 <ehird> AnMaster: package is command-not-foun
20:43:30 <ehird> it's not a bash feature
20:43:34 <ehird> it's an ubuntu package
20:43:38 <ehird> AnMaster: not hardcoded either
20:43:41 <ehird> it actually scans your local repo
20:43:50 <AnMaster> ehird, how does it hook into bash though...
20:43:53 <ehird> AnMaster: function is "command-not-found"
20:44:07 <AnMaster> set | grep command-not <-- no matches
20:44:21 <ehird> AnMaster: er, I think it's an executable
20:44:24 <ehird> try "command-not-found butt"
20:44:54 <AnMaster> ehird, just gives regular bash message about not finding command-not-found.. Guess the name was something else
20:45:00 <ehird> AnMaster: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommandNotFoundMagic
20:45:05 <ehird> Bash has a "command_not_found" handler that is called in the interactive mode when a command is not found. The first argument is the command that is not found. We hook a custom python script into it that has a database (gdbm or similar) with the available commands as keys and some information (like a list of packages it is in) as value. This lookup needs to be fast. This information is assembled from various sources:
20:45:08 <ehird> so command_not_found
20:45:24 <FireFly> [21:45:14] (jonas@~/scripts/sh)$ command_not_found_handle ac
20:45:25 <FireFly> Programmet "ac" är för närvarande inte installerat. Du kan installera det genom att ange:
20:45:59 <ehird> AnMaster: anyway, does brasero not do what you wanted?
20:46:16 <AnMaster> ehird, oh right forgot to look
20:46:37 <ehird> if it doesn't, you should prolly report it as a bug in Launchpad; while Gnome apps themselves may not have many options, they should be able to produce any result that the "competition" can
20:46:45 <ehird> unless they're specifically designed to do the simple, common case
20:46:53 <GregorR> Are there any languages that use the Latin alphabet but have no upper- and lower-case?
20:47:07 <GregorR> Are there any natural languages that use the Latin alphabet but have no upper- and lower-case?
20:47:12 <AnMaster> ehird, I can't see an option for making a CD bootable
20:47:13 <ehird> Lojban is a natural language.
20:48:44 <ehird> Brasero can boot a burnable ISO
20:48:45 <AnMaster> not something I need a lot though
20:48:48 <ehird> but I don't think you can set one
20:48:54 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. But *creating* the iso
20:49:04 <AnMaster> anyway, for most purposes it looks like it is enough
20:49:19 <ehird> AnMaster: I'll try and avoid mentioning that it'll be using wodim. :)
20:49:52 <AnMaster> ehird, I did look for cdrecord and was slightly amused that it didn't include it
20:49:58 <ehird> AnMaster: it IS non-free…
20:50:00 <AnMaster> as long as that works on the computer *shrug*
20:50:07 <ehird> It may be in the non-free repos or universe or sth
20:50:28 <ehird> (use the Repository too thing in Preferences or Administration (I forget) to enable the extra repo(s))
20:50:44 <AnMaster> ehird, wodim had issues with the dvd drive in my desktop...
20:50:54 <ehird> I was just noting about the repositories.
20:51:24 <ehird> lol, from Wikipedia:
20:51:26 <ehird> [[Cdrtools - why do Linux distributions create bad forks?, essay from Jörg Schilling referring to cdrkit without mentioning its name]]
20:51:34 <ehird> the passive-aggressive equivalent of writing a novel without the letter e!
20:51:54 <AnMaster> ehird, point is. they did mess it up. As my own experience showed :P
20:52:13 <ehird> Also known as "bugs".
20:52:47 <AnMaster> btw about bootable in k3b... I can't find the option any more... The dialogs changed layout since back then. It was back on 3.5.6 or so
20:52:48 <ehird> AnMaster: I assume cfunge has never had a regression :P
20:52:57 <AnMaster> (the k3b on my desktop is 3.5.10 nowdays)
20:53:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Your English just regressed.
20:55:37 <AnMaster> ehird, I just came up with one thing that I suspect neither braswhatever or k3b can do: hybrid cds
20:55:51 <AnMaster> as in ISO<whatever the number was now again>/HFS
20:56:15 <AnMaster> not that I ever needed such a cd
20:56:24 <ehird> I... dearly miss that feature :-P
20:56:39 <AnMaster> ehird, does OS X still use it? Or did it drop it?
20:56:46 <ehird> I don't think it uses it.
20:57:16 <AnMaster> ah right it probably uses .DS_Store or similar to store the needed metadata nowdays
20:57:51 <ehird> .DS_Store is the bane of my existence.
20:57:56 <ehird> I wish I could totally obliterate it.
20:58:24 <AnMaster> ehird, that is why I avoid inserting any removable media in any mac.
20:58:35 <AnMaster> there are some other ones right?
20:59:01 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't think it puts .DS_Store on removable media.
20:59:13 <ehird> Unless you actually do shit to the files in Finder, it won't add them, anyway.
20:59:26 <ehird> AnMaster: Oh, right; TinkerTool can turn that off, though.
20:59:35 <AnMaster> Pre-OS X created a different set of directories files on everything
20:59:46 <ehird> wait, that's just over a network
20:59:48 <pikhq> I know for a fact that mkisofs can do that.
21:00:17 <ehird> And thus wodim can.
21:00:46 <pikhq> mkisofs -hfs foo bar baz -o foo.iso
21:00:52 <ehird> Same with wodim :P
21:01:21 <ehird> eglibc is a libc whose feature is "No Drepper". wodim is a CD recorder whose features are "No Schilling" and "regressions".
21:02:26 <ehird> Huh, k3b hasn't been updated for KDE 4.
21:02:38 <AnMaster> On FAT, pre-OS X created: TheVolumeSettingPref? Something like that. And RESOURCE.FRK?
21:02:38 <pikhq> In my estimation, "No Drepper" is a killer feature.
21:03:12 <ehird> You know what KDE 4's biggest stupidity is?
21:03:19 <ehird> The fucking blue active window shadow.
21:03:22 <ehird> SHADOWS DO NOT WORK LIKE THAT.
21:03:28 <ehird> NO, I DON'T CARE IF THEY'RE NEON SHADOWS!
21:03:56 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jörg_Schilling
21:04:03 <AnMaster> ah found a list in: http://www.wellesley.edu/Computing/OSX/Intro/introOSX.html
21:04:10 <ehird> similar to tuomov wrt licensing
21:04:15 <ehird> hates distros doing anything to his software
21:04:17 <AnMaster> search for "TheVolumeSettings" to get to the right part
21:04:28 <AnMaster> <ehird> Huh, k3b hasn't been updated for KDE 4. <-- huh indeed
21:04:42 <AnMaster> <ehird> It's FUGLY! <-- change theme?
21:04:46 <ehird> Guess they're debating whether to rename it to k4b.
21:04:53 <ehird> AnMaster: They should fix the existing theme :P
21:05:00 <pikhq> No, they're just very slow to port.
21:05:13 <ehird> Like Konversation.
21:05:19 <AnMaster> ehird, oh btw I had to turn off compiz. 3D acceleration for vbox guests is known broken if host is using compiz
21:05:22 <pikhq> KDE 4.3 has a different theme, BTW.
21:05:29 <ehird> pikhq: no it doesn't
21:05:31 <AnMaster> just change to "no effects" and it used metacity
21:05:32 <ehird> i've looked at the screenshot
21:05:56 <ehird> AnMaster: Metacity can do compositing stuff itself nowadays, iirc.
21:06:00 <ehird> It may not be compiz.
21:06:12 <ehird> pikhq: http://kde.org/announcements/announce_4.3-beta1/kcontrol4.png
21:06:46 <ehird> Gnome Do looks like Quicksilver for Gnome.
21:06:56 <ehird> That is a Good Thing.
21:06:59 <pikhq> I sincerely hope they just hadn't stuck the new theme in the beta.
21:07:04 <ehird> Hopefully it's more stable...
21:07:07 <AnMaster> ehird, well, it worked fine under metacity. A bit less effects. Seems I can't drag windows between virtual desktops by dragging them to the edge any more
21:07:10 <ehird> pikhq: what did it look like?
21:07:13 <pikhq> Because if they're shipping that in final, I'm stabbing someone.
21:07:22 <ehird> AnMaster: "A bit less effects." aaaaargh
21:07:23 <AnMaster> 3D in virtualbox seems to work
21:07:25 <pikhq> ehird: Like Oxygen with less fugly.
21:07:39 <AnMaster> ehird, well. The effects enabled on the "normal" setting were not too intrusive
21:07:44 <pikhq> The Plasma theme saw much more work.
21:07:47 <ehird> pikhq: That is not helpful :P
21:08:03 <ehird> AnMaster: I meant the grammar.
21:08:08 <pikhq> ehird: Called "Ozone".
21:08:24 <AnMaster> ehird, oh right. Did I treat "effects" as an uncountable?
21:08:26 <ehird> http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=39826 not this one, presumably
21:08:50 <pikhq> Gah. The KDE 4.3 RC announcement is using a beta screenshot.
21:08:53 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't even know, but it should be "A little fewer effects." or something.
21:08:56 <ehird> still sounds a bit awkward
21:09:02 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed as an uncountable then
21:09:17 <ehird> pikhq: http://news.softpedia.com/images/extra/LINUX/large/kde43rc1-large_001.jpg
21:09:20 <AnMaster> ehird, uncountable: like "water" or "milk" (you can't say, "a"/"an" about them)
21:09:31 <ehird> AnMaster: ah, right.
21:09:39 <pikhq> ehird: http://kde.org/announcements/announce_4.3-beta1/plasma.png This at least shows the new Plasma stuff.
21:09:50 <ehird> I would never use Plasma, ever
21:09:55 <AnMaster> ehird, "a bit less milk" would have been correct I believe (though rather odd in the context ;)
21:09:56 <ehird> I hate desktop widgets
21:10:01 <AnMaster> ehird, I did... yesterday. Horrible.
21:10:15 <ehird> KDE 4 is OK; widgets are not.
21:10:31 <pikhq> The KDE panel is *also* Plasma.
21:10:34 <ehird> "Let's place useless gadgets… on the place you cover with all your actual stuff!"
21:10:36 <ehird> "HURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR"
21:11:09 <AnMaster> ehird, synaptic package list (category listing) seems to come in three flavours: 1) "foo" 2) "foo (universe)" 3) "foo (multiverse)"
21:11:16 <ehird> AnMaster: different repos.
21:11:29 <AnMaster> ehird, ah. What is the diff between them
21:11:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Open the repository manager thing in, I think, Administration; it has explanatory text.
21:12:16 <AnMaster> hm that seems to be mirror server setting
21:12:54 <AnMaster> ehird, ok... now why on earth is the linux kernel in "restricted"?
21:13:19 <ehird> AnMaster: Ubuntu add binary blob WiFi drivers and the like.
21:13:20 <pikhq> HURR MAKE NO SENSE YAY.
21:14:28 <AnMaster> actually I did. It is just that it installed "linux-restricted-modules-2.6.18-13-generic" by default. And when I was looking there yesterday it was middle of night. 5 minutes before I decided to go to bed
21:15:48 <AnMaster> any way to tell ubuntu to turn off bluetooth by default
21:16:02 <ehird> But, look in the regular places.
21:16:11 <ehird> I don't think it'll affect that much.
21:16:15 <AnMaster> ehird, and easy to forget to turn it off every time it wakes up
21:17:29 <AnMaster> ehird, powertop thinks it is roughly half a watt. And powertop running on idle system (on battery) is roughly 11.5 W
21:17:47 <AnMaster> not a lot no, but I want to maximise battery time
21:17:53 <ehird> AnMaster: Okay, now, half a watt will get you seconds.
21:17:55 <ehird> And I mean seconds
21:18:04 <ehird> Not worth crippling in any way for.
21:18:22 <ehird> You already have the extra battery cells.
21:18:32 <AnMaster> ehird, battery time estimate jumped up by about 10 minutes after I turned bluetooth off though
21:18:57 <AnMaster> ehird, so I guess either the "half watt" is very aprox. Or your calculation is off
21:19:17 <ehird> AnMaster: consider that your CPU takes up 35 watts
21:19:18 <AnMaster> or the estimated time is wrong
21:19:22 <ehird> hard drive, 10 watts
21:19:33 <ehird> RAM, about two watts per stick
21:19:46 <AnMaster> ehird, um. if total system drain on battery was calculated to 11 W. CPU can't be 35 W then
21:19:52 <ehird> AnMaster: at load.
21:20:06 <ehird> HD will be about 3w at idle
21:20:28 <AnMaster> ehird, well true. But I suspect most of the time I will actually just type during lectures and such
21:21:07 <ehird> I'm just saying that half a watt is rather pointless.
21:21:43 <AnMaster> ehird, btw virtualbox is strange. It forwarded the battery status to the VM...
21:21:55 <ehird> That's not strange.
21:21:57 <ehird> That's well-integrated.
21:22:18 <ehird> If you install the driver things, the cursor movement is fluid, too.
21:22:22 <ehird> As it uses the host's.
21:22:33 <ehird> AnMaster: a lot of VMs can also, given a Windows guest, integrate those Windows.
21:22:37 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I wonder if it will let the VM change anything...
21:22:38 <ehird> i.e., they hover like normal windows
21:22:40 <ehird> use the same taskbar
21:22:47 <ehird> same taskbar icon set etc
21:22:49 <AnMaster> if so I bet windows will mess stuff up
21:22:57 <AnMaster> ehird, about that integration thingy: Not very
21:23:00 <ehird> those are mostly the paid ones like Parallels and VMWare Fusion for the Mac
21:23:13 <AnMaster> I got the start menu bard just above the gnome task bar
21:23:14 <ehird> AnMaster: It won't let it do anything to the host, no.
21:23:20 <ehird> You can do it, with some effort.
21:23:25 <ehird> But you have to explicitly let it.
21:23:41 <ehird> AnMaster: Yeah, the Mac VM products generally add a dock button that opens the Start menu.
21:23:50 <ehird> And use dock icons for applications, etc.
21:24:01 <AnMaster> ehird, well not just start menu. The whole windows taskbar thingy
21:24:13 <ehird> I was saying how better-integrating products do it.
21:25:10 <ehird> http://lispm.dyndns.org/symbolics-ui-examples/Bild-95.png
21:25:51 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, I managed to get windows XP to use the SATA controller in virtualbox (yes I got the binary version since I need USB support too)... Was quite fun
21:26:13 <ehird> did you use a package for the binary one or downloaded it?
21:26:16 <ehird> I think Ubuntu has a package for it
21:26:41 <AnMaster> ehird, I checked: no package for it. Not even in restricted. Or searching for "virtualbox" and checking the full list didn't turn it up at least
21:26:50 <ehird> AnMaster: The open source one is -ose.
21:26:55 <ehird> The regular virtualbox one is the closed source one.
21:26:58 <ehird> Right in front of you, I'd guess.
21:27:18 <ehird> AnMaster: Did you enable the other repository in Software Sources?
21:27:24 <ehird> *repositories, maybe
21:27:42 <ehird> No, there's about 4.
21:27:56 <AnMaster> well all four on the first page are enabled
21:28:07 <AnMaster> that is: main, universe, restricted, multiverse
21:28:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, I assume you used the .deb from Sun, anyway.
21:28:52 <ehird> As opposed to wantonly make installing.
21:29:07 <AnMaster> ehird, I used the *.deb from them yes
21:29:26 <AnMaster> you should know I'm obsessed with "everything should be known by package manager"
21:29:41 <ehird> AnMaster: Aha! But!
21:29:42 <AnMaster> I'm pretty sure we "discussed" that before in here :P
21:29:59 <AnMaster> ehird, is that the "create package on fly" one? Right?
21:30:07 <ehird> ~/local instantly evaporates in the face the of pulverising package manager dictatorship!!
21:30:25 <AnMaster> ehird, except ~/local is nice for multiple versions side by side in a painless way
21:30:43 <ehird> True. But that's rare.
21:30:58 -!- jix_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:31:04 <AnMaster> ehird, I test cfunge under old gcc too. Back to 3.4
21:31:09 -!- jix has joined.
21:31:13 <AnMaster> gentoo installs them side by side
21:31:18 <ehird> there are multiple-version gcc packages in Debian/Ubuntu
21:31:31 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed. But there are other packages like that. What about bash?
21:31:41 <AnMaster> when you want to check your shell script works in old versions
21:32:20 <AnMaster> I have bash 3.0, 3.1, 3.2, 4.0 (last sub version for each as of about two weeks ago)
21:32:48 <AnMaster> maybe I should learn how it works. Probably easier to *use* than ssh tunnel?
21:33:01 <AnMaster> GregorR, I don't even go back to pre-3.4 so :P
21:34:09 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
21:35:34 <AnMaster> btw the cd here is annoying ehird
21:35:39 <pikhq> I've got ~/local mostly in use for scripts.
21:35:49 <AnMaster> as in. half a second maybe one second
21:35:57 <AnMaster> irritating if you are installing a cd or such
21:36:16 <AnMaster> sure better while on battery for the battery power I guess
21:38:38 -!- jix has joined.
21:45:56 -!- jix has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:46:07 -!- jix has joined.
21:48:59 -!- jix has quit (Client Quit).
21:49:18 -!- jix has joined.
21:57:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, my scripts are in ~/bin
21:58:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, I use ~/local/<name of package>/<optional version component>/ as --prefix
21:58:29 <AnMaster> I usually use the version bit always nowdays
21:59:15 <AnMaster> most stuff in ~/local are large and complex programs.~/local/wesnoth/svn, ~/local/llvm/svn and such that installs lots of files in --prefix
22:00:39 <AnMaster> ~/local/valgrind/svn too. valgrind hardcodes paths into the binaries at build time.
22:00:52 <AnMaster> for rather good reasons that are too complex to explain atm
22:02:24 <AnMaster> ubuntus help app thingy crashed
22:02:52 <AnMaster> system logs says the binary was "yelp"
22:03:46 -!- jix has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:03:58 -!- jix has joined.
22:10:15 -!- jix has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:10:26 -!- jix has joined.
22:10:51 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:17:37 <HackEgo> * bark in a high-pitched tone; "the puppies yelped" \ * yip: a sharp high-pitched cry (especially by a dog) \ [17]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
22:19:58 <AnMaster> also gnome help browser thingy
22:22:52 -!- jix has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:23:03 -!- jix has joined.
22:30:34 <ehird> AnMaster: did you send the crash report?
22:32:50 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't get any dialog about the crash
22:33:04 <ehird> AnMaster: might have done it automatically
22:33:23 <ehird> With the release of Ubuntu 6.10, Ubuntu includes Apport[6].
22:33:23 <ehird> Apport works by installing a userspace helper which intercepts user processes when they would usually dump core, and writes crash reports to a staging location. A user daemon then invites the user to submit new crash reports to Ubuntu for analysis.[7]
22:33:25 <AnMaster> ehird, Microsoft at least asks first. At least in XP
22:33:26 <ehird> Apport is disabled by default on official end-user-facing releases of Ubuntu.
22:33:35 <ehird> AnMaster: if it's anonymous it doesn't really matter
22:33:48 <AnMaster> ehird, well coredump could contain passwords and such
22:33:49 <ehird> crash reports are a nice way of reporting bugs
22:33:56 <ehird> it just automatically *poof*!
22:34:11 <ehird> AnMaster: could easily have a tag on stuff.
22:34:21 <ehird> APPORT_REDACT char *pw;
22:34:34 <ehird> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Apport seems you can just choose
22:34:39 <AnMaster> um? In the source code? For every program?
22:34:46 <AnMaster> Well, I guess they could do that
22:34:49 <ehird> AnMaster: obviously as part of a desktop environment
22:35:04 <ehird> tagging values like that is a good idea for other things too anyway
22:35:17 <ehird> I like the word anyhow
22:35:17 <AnMaster> not sure I would want to check the whole source code of large apps if I was a package maintainer.
22:35:24 <AnMaster> Lets say: read every line in wireshark?
22:35:34 <ehird> AnMaster: wireshark isn't part of Gnome.
22:35:39 <AnMaster> what about firefox or thunderbird
22:35:47 <ehird> also not part of gnome
22:35:48 <AnMaster> ehird, ok. So it only applies to official gnome apps?
22:35:54 <ehird> AnMaster: opt-in, rather
22:36:07 <ehird> but all official gnome apps would, yeah
22:36:25 <ehird> AnMaster: remember that all law-abiding gnome apps already adhere to something far more precise
22:36:41 <ehird> fun fact: the HIG dictates that windows should be as close to 1:phi in size as possible
22:41:30 <GregorR> http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php
22:42:22 <ehird> GregorR: make a neural network for rating dinosaur comics based on their pixel colour codes
22:42:35 <ehird> basically what you're doing with colormatcher but that's only 1x1
22:43:07 <ehird> GregorR: Dude, that's gross. Why would I have sex with a mentally disabled person on their period?
22:43:21 <GregorR> I don't know, you tell me, you're the one that's doing it.
22:43:30 <ehird> Because you said I was!
22:43:50 <ehird> I am a beautiful flower.
22:43:53 <ehird> Beautiful, and sinless.
22:44:24 <ehird> Not cos(less), though.
22:44:37 <oerjan> darn i was _just_ going to say that
22:44:50 <oklopol> GregorR: it's not very nice to call people retards.
22:45:02 <ehird> oklopol: you do realise you did that to me before ignoring me, right? :D
22:45:10 <GregorR> oklopol: It's not intended to be nice. It's intended to be an insult. So, "duh"?
22:45:42 * oerjan notes that the "retired" meme hasn't spread here. probably been retired because it was retired.
22:46:06 <oklopol> well i was just joking, but it's not very nice to insult people either
22:46:12 <ehird> oerjan: it has spread here.
22:46:14 <ehird> For a few seconds.
22:46:29 <ehird> If you don't think that's spreading, you're retired.
22:46:41 <oklopol> right i should really try to remember ehird
22:46:41 <ehird> oklopol: See, this is what you get for ignoring people!
22:46:46 <GregorR> They were just born without oxygen.
22:46:59 <ehird> it is kind of hard to work without oxygen, i think
22:47:37 <oklopol> <ehird> oklopol: See, this is what you get for ignoring people! <<< yes, that's why i only do it as a last resort
22:47:41 <oerjan> (warning: not up to my usual latin grammar standards)
22:47:47 <ehird> oklopol: evidently you have failed at your task
22:47:50 <ehird> are you MENTALLY ignoring me?
22:47:53 <ehird> that would be some feat
22:48:01 <ehird> or just clogging, which, y'know, isn't really ignoring
22:48:03 <oerjan> we all know oklopol has mental feats
22:48:11 <ehird> but if you're mentally ignoring me and didn't notice I said anything and thus got confused, that's amazing
22:49:55 <oklopol> ehird: i'm reading logs, yes, i do want to know what you say, it's about controlling the amount of interaction.
22:50:20 <ehird> oklopol: will you marry me? FAIL TO INTERACT AT *THAT*!
22:50:50 <GregorR> Gay pedastric marriage ... PROBABLY not legal.
22:51:08 <ehird> GregorR: Guess what other love wasn't legal?
22:51:22 <ehird> (Turing's law, I know, I know.)
22:51:22 <GregorR> I WAS ACTUALLY TYPING THAT
22:51:38 <GregorR> I was actually typing "Turing's ... for, uh, that guy?"
22:51:46 <ehird> Turing for oklopol.
22:54:58 <ehird> oklopol: by silently not interacting, you're interacting very loudly
22:58:21 <AnMaster> huh got permission denied as root on ubuntu when accessing /home/<username>/.gvfs ... found it due to some root command running find and that reporting an error
22:59:26 <Ilari> AnMaster: Check logs for AVC denials?
22:59:52 <Ilari> Access Vector Cache. Part of SELinux.
22:59:58 <ehird> ubuntu doesn't use selinux...
23:00:15 <AnMaster> Ilari, selinux isn't enabled... though /selinux exists. But there are no files in there
23:00:51 <Ilari> AnMaster: What 'ls -ld' says about it?
23:01:03 <ehird> AnMaster: is this on the ubuntu machine?
23:01:12 <AnMaster> Ilari, as normal user? nothing. As root: permission denined
23:01:35 <ehird> AnMaster: /selinux shouldn't exist…
23:02:01 <AnMaster> Ilari, dr-x------ for permissions
23:02:26 <AnMaster> ehird, check your livecd with 9.04?
23:02:29 <Ilari> AnMaster: Huh, ls should say something about it if it exists...
23:02:29 -!- Ilari has quit ("Reconnecting").
23:02:33 -!- Ilari has joined.
23:02:36 <ehird> but selinux is an optional in ubuntu
23:02:40 <AnMaster> Ilari, yes I misunderstood you
23:02:42 <ehird> so i doubt it's enabled
23:03:03 <AnMaster> Ilari, copy paste to irc is a bit painful. haven't set up irc on it yet at all
23:03:11 <AnMaster> so irc is on different computer
23:03:15 <ehird> It'd take two seconds...
23:03:34 <ehird> Applications → Install/Remove → XChat Gnome → Tick → Install → Double click.
23:03:36 <AnMaster> ehird, really? bouncer is set to listen to 127.0.0.1 ...
23:03:38 <ehird> It even preconnects to Freenode.
23:03:43 <ehird> (Well, irc.ubuntu.com; same thing.)
23:03:51 <ehird> AnMaster: works as a temporary solution, no?
23:03:58 <ehird> as opposed to using a pastebin or manually retyping
23:05:16 -!- anmaster_ub has joined.
23:05:32 <anmaster_ub> dr-x------ 2 arvid arvid 0 Jul 26 21:19 .gvfs/
23:05:44 <anmaster_ub> ls: cannot access .gvfs: Permission denied
23:05:50 <Ilari> 0 size directory, huh?
23:05:57 <ehird> anmaster_ub: your client doth not respond to version!
23:06:23 <ehird> also xchat gnome > xchat >_>
23:06:37 <anmaster_ub> and it uses Swedish dict with no alternative to change
23:06:45 * anmaster_ub needs newer xchat to be able to use xchat then
23:08:13 <Ilari> Well, maybe empty directory appears as 0 size on Ext4. Some filesystems have empty directories appear as size >0 (Reiserfs has 48 bytes for empty dir).
23:08:48 <anmaster_ub> drwxr-xr-x 2 arvid arvid 4096 Jul 27 00:08 tmp
23:09:20 <anmaster_ub> iirc gvfs is some "gnome virtual filesystem" thingy
23:09:29 <anmaster_ub> but I can't imagine it fucking things up that much
23:09:43 <Ilari> anmaster_ub: Fuse?
23:09:51 <anmaster_ub> gvfs-fuse-daemon /home/arvid/.gvfs fuse.gvfs-fuse-daemon rw,nosuid,nodev,user_id=1000,group_id=1000 0 0
23:10:42 <anmaster_ub> ehird, xchat-gnome package desc: "GNOME's philosophy in terms of user interfaces has been progressing towards
23:10:43 <anmaster_ub> presenting the user with few options, yet sane defaults. While many of the
23:10:43 <anmaster_ub> normal X-Chat options will be preserved inside GConf, only the most common
23:10:43 <anmaster_ub> settings will be included in the main user interface."
23:10:50 <Ilari> anmaster_ub: Well, that might explain the EACCESS.
23:10:57 <anmaster_ub> anyway when I use xchat I tend to change nearly all the options
23:11:06 <ehird> anmaster_ub: Yes, but xchat-gnome's defaults are less retarded.
23:11:25 <anmaster_ub> ehird, I'll give it a try but I'm not optimistic
23:11:34 <anmaster_ub> Ilari, yes... nfs seems to do that too to root btw
23:11:36 <pikhq> Oh, right. GVFS is the FUSE binding to the GNOME virtual filesystem.
23:11:42 -!- Pthing has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:11:55 <ehird> Accessing gnome virtual filesystems.
23:12:37 <ehird> Filesystems in Gnome that are not actual local filesystems.
23:12:47 -!- ais523 has joined.
23:12:54 -!- Pthing has joined.
23:13:03 <pikhq> Most everything Nautilus can browse that is not actually mounted.
23:13:13 <anmaster_ub> pikhq, I haven't used nautilus much yet...
23:13:25 <ehird> ais523: You might want to leave, the universe is being destroyed. Specifically, AnMaster is using Ubuntu and Gnome and being relatively okay with it.
23:13:29 <pikhq> anmaster_ub: You know KDE's KIO? That, but GNOME.
23:13:37 <ehird> I mean, it's kind of embarrassing watching the universe be destroyed, you know?
23:13:44 <anmaster_ub> pikhq, to me konq is mostly a web browser...
23:13:49 <ais523> ehird: is there an emoticon to indicate that you might be slightly stroppy due to events in RL, and are generally annoyed, but not at anybody in this channel?
23:13:59 <ehird> ais523: Yes, "/part"
23:14:05 <ais523> ehird: no, it's sort of the opposite
23:14:05 <anmaster_ub> ehird, does xchat-gnome in ubuntu support multiple languages for spell checking *and allows you to change on the fly at runtime*
23:14:13 <ehird> ais523: Stops it affecting anyone else
23:14:17 <ehird> anmaster_ub: That's handled by Gnome.
23:14:18 <ais523> ehird: ah, fair enough
23:14:30 <ehird> anmaster_ub: Spelling correction is Gnome-wide.
23:14:36 <ehird> ais523: I was joking, though
23:14:41 <anmaster_ub> ehird, well I want different languages for different channels
23:14:51 <anmaster_ub> so I need to either store it per channel or change on the fly
23:14:51 <ehird> anmaster_ub: Stop making typos
23:14:58 <ehird> anmaster_ub: Anyway, look in Gnome settings.
23:15:04 <ehird> There's probably a way to use both dictionaries.
23:15:30 <ehird> xchat-gnome was last released in 2007 :P
23:15:40 <ehird> (Although there's been an svn commit as recently as three months ago.)
23:16:06 <ehird> Ooh, four days, even.
23:16:12 <ehird> http://git.gnome.org/cgit/xchat-gnome/log/
23:16:16 <anmaster_ub> it only works when compiled against aspell directly. As opposed to for example gnome-spelling
23:16:33 <ehird> anmaster_ub: Just see if you can use two dictionaries globally at once in Gnome.
23:16:34 <ehird> That'll do the trick.
23:16:59 <ehird> That kind of thing wouldn't go in GConf.
23:17:01 <ehird> Probably in Preferences.
23:17:12 <anmaster_ub> ehird, you mean as in a union of two dicts?
23:17:30 <ehird> Unless "tho" → "the" is an insanely common Swedish typo you make or something it should work fine.
23:17:35 <anmaster_ub> that is highly useless. Means I won't notice telephone/telefon (one is English, the other Swedish)
23:17:50 <ehird> I can't think of an elegant way to do it system-wide /shrug
23:18:00 <ehird> Anyway, I'm going to assume that Swedish people know what telephone means.
23:18:05 <ehird> Also, typing ph instead of f is pretty damn hard.
23:18:06 <anmaster_ub> ehird, recompile xchat against stock aspell backend seems like the only way :P
23:18:43 <anmaster_ub> ehird, no... I often mix up what language I'm typing in when talking in *Swedish* channels :P
23:19:17 <ehird> Well that's okay. Anyway, let me introduce myself, for mi'e ,Eli.at.xrd.
23:19:27 <ais523> ehird: what, you're learning Lojban?
23:19:38 <ais523> I'm actually more surprised at that than at AnMaster using Ubuntu
23:19:44 <Sgeo> Shouldn't there be a la in there?
23:19:47 <ehird> ais523: No, I learned how to introduce myself and say "I say '<introduction>'" in 2007
23:19:57 <anmaster_ub> ah wait... not against aspell directly... *against gtkspell* ...
23:19:59 <ehird> I want to learn Lojban sometime, though.
23:20:02 <ehird> ais523: Why's it surprising, anyway?
23:20:10 <ais523> ehird: 'xrd' is a great way to spell your surname
23:20:10 <Sgeo> I learned a bit of lojban a while ago
23:20:18 <ehird> ais523: There's a more accurate way, iirc.
23:20:22 <ehird> Warrigal came up with it or something.
23:20:25 <ehird> That may have been for my first name.
23:20:26 <ais523> anmaster_ub: I suspect Ubuntu will learn a lot from you
23:20:30 <anmaster_ub> anyway now to figure out how in ubuntu. Hopefully this won't involve recompiling... or ehird will go mad
23:20:38 <Sgeo> I can say the man is a woman. le nanmu cu ninmu
23:20:40 <ehird> ais523: No, he'll try and teach them something and they'll call him bonkers :-P
23:20:53 <ais523> I mean 'could', not 'will'
23:21:04 * ais523 is annoyed at Ubuntu's typical bug response
23:21:04 <ehird> "OK, now that I can use a language per channel, I'd like to be able to switch dictionaries mid-sentence."
23:21:09 <ais523> it's considerably worse than Debian's
23:21:10 <ehird> "…I hate you, Norlander."
23:21:13 <anmaster_ub> ais523, anyway I want things to work... And I thought ubuntu was all about *sane defaults*
23:21:17 <ehird> anmaster_ub: It is!
23:21:20 <ehird> You're just not sane.
23:21:33 <anmaster_ub> ehird, English + native language is rather common
23:21:40 <ehird> I'm joking, sheesh.
23:21:46 <ais523> anmaster_ub: I'd say that wanting to use multiple languages in one situation can't possibly be a default
23:21:53 <ais523> what you're complaining about is that it can't easily be customised
23:22:13 <anmaster_ub> ais523, I just want to be able to change dict for spell checking in xchat on the fly
23:22:33 <ehird> Yes, but Ubuntu make X-Chat use the Gnome spelling correction.
23:22:40 <ehird> So that, you know, things are CONSISTENT and INTEGRATED.
23:22:45 <ehird> Which is… kind of the point.
23:22:50 <ehird> ais523: anyway, why is me learning Lojban surprising?
23:22:56 <ehird> anmaster_ub: I don't know.
23:23:01 <ais523> ehird: just I have a mental list of Lojban users, and you aren't on it
23:23:14 <ehird> Lojban is awesome.
23:23:24 <ehird> I'm going to ask #lojban how best to Lojbanise my name now.
23:23:42 <ehird> ais523: "xrd" does annoy me a bit; I seem to recall the problem is that Lojban simply doesn't have an h.
23:23:46 <ehird> But it's punctuation.
23:23:55 <ais523> heh, same as ancient greek
23:23:59 <ais523> h was an accent over vowels
23:24:06 <ehird> It has "i", but it's "ee".
23:24:18 -!- anmaster_ub has quit ("Lmnar").
23:24:24 <ais523> "hurd" would be closer to the pronouciation you want, wouldn't it be?
23:24:30 <ais523> or am I wrong as to how to say your name?
23:24:46 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm relatively sure the default quit message /can/ be changed
23:25:17 <ehird> Wow, it defaulted to using the language everything else does.
23:25:19 <AnMaster> anyway ubuntu would be horrible on a desktop
23:25:25 <ehird> …………………………………what?
23:25:31 <AnMaster> good for laptops with changing configuration and so on
23:25:41 <AnMaster> but a desktop? You don't connect to different networks all the time
23:25:42 <ehird> Oh, you mean "I hate Ubuntu but can tolerate it here".
23:25:52 <ehird> Not "Ubuntu would be objectively terrible on non-portable computers".
23:25:58 <ais523> oh, I think I see AnMaster's point here
23:25:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I think arch and gentoo > ubuntu when it is on desktops.
23:26:11 <ais523> Ubuntu is what you'd stick onto a hard-drive that repeatedly got placed into lots of different computers
23:26:19 <AnMaster> the reason I want ubuntu on a laptop is that stuff like suspending and so on works more or less out of the box
23:26:23 <ehird> ais523: I see his point, it's just really stupid; Ubuntu's and Gnome's integration does NOT stop at "you can change networks easily", at all.
23:26:24 <ais523> for what should be blindingly obvious reasons
23:26:35 <ais523> ehird: yes, but that's what's important for him
23:26:42 <ehird> oklopol: are you only ignoring me in here? :D
23:26:57 <AnMaster> a portable install on a usb stick? Ubuntu unless it is easier to cram gentoo into there
23:27:06 <AnMaster> I know a non-gentoo live cd based on gentoo
23:27:07 <ehird> ais523: I tend to ignore that because experience shows his priorities are… uh…
23:27:10 <oklopol> ehird: i realized you were right in that i should ignore you mentally
23:27:29 <oklopol> cannot miss the fact you highlighted me though, guess i should read that one
23:27:40 <oklopol> except, well, that's exactly what i want to ignore i guess :D
23:27:45 <ehird> oklopol: I apologise you and worship at the altar of your altarification.
23:27:50 <ehird> ("I apologise you" :D)
23:27:54 -!- anmaster_ub has joined.
23:29:01 <ehird> anmaster_ub: To assure you have an eternal vitriolic hatred of xchat-gnome, note that it hides the user list unless you click "Users". :)
23:29:02 <oklopol> ehird: accepted i guess, i hate ignoring people.
23:29:10 <oklopol> except mental ignoring is actually quite fun
23:29:15 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
23:29:38 <oklopol> but as i only did it for about 5 minutes, can't say i'm very fluent
23:29:41 <anmaster_ub> ehird, I'm not using xchat-gnome atm... I'm going to try to figure this out first
23:29:44 -!- anmaster_ub has quit (Client Quit).
23:29:55 <ehird> Surprised he would even try after that.
23:30:06 <oklopol> in a long list of messages from non-ignored people, i tend to automatically start reading messages without checking nick
23:30:20 <oklopol> because you can always tell from content anyway
23:30:22 <ehird> oklopol: just ignore messages with fnord in them. including this one. if you can start doing this while still ignoring this message, you're amazing.
23:30:33 <ehird> requires you to also — fnord — know to do it before starting.
23:30:43 <oklopol> which basically means half the time i'm reading the first few words of what i'm supposed to be ignoring
23:31:08 <oklopol> ehird: i can ignore everything after fnord
23:31:17 <oklopol> by not focusing my eyes on it
23:31:26 <ehird> you were meant to fnord ignore the previous parts too.
23:31:41 <oklopol> basically i'm supposed to forget what i read once i see the fnord? :P
23:32:06 <ais523> actually, a fnord wasn't supposed to prevent you reading the rest of the line
23:32:19 <oklopol> i am not very good at forgetting stuff actively
23:32:29 <ais523> it was just the fnord yourself you couldn't notice, but your eyes crossing one made you vaguely uncomfortable
23:32:43 <ais523> so if enough fnords were sprinkled in something, you'd stop reading it and do something else
23:32:46 <ehird> oklopol: no you're not meant to read it in the first place
23:32:53 <oklopol> ais523: you do realize i stop reading after your fnords?
23:33:07 <ehird> I'll save you the fnord
23:33:10 <oklopol> ehird: right. i prefer sticking to stuff that's possible.
23:33:23 <ehird> doesn't work the other way, sorta
23:33:24 <ais523> what about doing it XML-style? <fnord>Do you read this?</fnord> What about this/
23:33:44 <oklopol> ais523: i skipped the in-between
23:33:59 <oklopol> except i know what's in-between anyway
23:34:11 <oklopol> i'm not sure that's allowed either
23:34:58 <AnMaster> ehird, ais523: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xchat/+bug/129514
23:35:18 <ais523> AnMaster: IME reporting a bug to Ubuntu has no effect
23:35:19 <ehird> darn, you didn't report it
23:35:24 <ais523> no matter who reports it
23:35:27 <ehird> ais523: you're just bitter :
23:35:40 <AnMaster> ais523, well that was the wrong one... So much for googling for the same thing on the other computer
23:35:47 <oklopol> ais523: kinda like voting doesn't matter huh
23:36:03 <ais523> oklopol: voting has a chance to matter when you do it
23:36:05 <ais523> admittedly, a small one
23:36:18 <oklopol> i'm sure ubuntu bug reports have a greater chance of that :P
23:36:19 <ais523> you can think of it this way: I vote due to the possibility that without me, there would be a draw
23:36:29 <ais523> that's better than not voting
23:36:31 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
23:36:38 <AnMaster> here we go for now: X forwarding from gentoo
23:36:43 <ais523> also, you can effectively get more than one vote by trying to sway the opinions of others
23:37:07 <ehird> ais523: OTOH, doing so subversively is evil
23:37:11 <oklopol> ais523: i'm familiar with the basic things you can philosophize about voting.
23:37:16 <ais523> ehird: yes, I don't do so subversively
23:37:25 <ais523> I get into interesting political discussions with people instead
23:37:47 <ais523> and talk about, say, how the Green Party has one of the saner technology policies out of all the parties in the EU elections
23:38:15 <ehird> I'd have political discussions with people but anyone too far to the right of me tends to be a dangerous psychopath and anyone too far to the left tends to have completely unimplementable idealist theories that irritate the hell out of me
23:38:31 <ehird> and it's kinda hard to have an interesting political discussion when you both agree almost entirely on everything
23:38:57 <ehird> ((ais523: but the pirate party has the sanest))
23:39:02 <ehird> well, digital copyright
23:39:05 <ehird> which is basically a subset.
23:39:08 <ais523> ehird: oh, quite possibly, but they weren't standing in the UK elections
23:39:15 <ais523> well, the UK EU elections
23:39:35 <ehird> it doesn't, but the EU elections don't, either
23:39:54 <AnMaster> it uses the local theme settings
23:40:28 <oklopol> what's that thing they need people's signatures for for making a party official
23:40:53 <ehird> oklopol: pregnancy
23:41:14 <oklopol> signed that for the finnish pirate party, because it was during a break between lectures, and i knew no one else would want to be the first to sign it
23:41:20 <oklopol> after me, half the people did :P
23:41:49 <oklopol> no no a paper, they collect like names, and when there's enough, they can become a party. or something like that.
23:41:55 <ehird> <AnMaster> I hate lawyers because it's trendy
23:42:01 <ehird> <AnMaster> So what if they're among the most intelligent people
23:42:06 <ehird> <AnMaster> They're eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil
23:42:24 <ehird> 23:41 AnMaster: oklopol, a party of lawyers? 23:41 AnMaster: *shudder*
23:42:28 <AnMaster> laywer jokes are always acceptable
23:43:00 <ehird> <AnMaster> "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" <AnMaster> Shakespeare was totally hating on lawyers right? <AnMaster> I'm fairly sure it was that <AnMaster> Stop shattering my illusions
23:43:08 <ehird> AnMaster: _some_ lawyers are among the most intelligent people?
23:43:10 <AnMaster> there are laywers working for the FSF and such
23:44:08 <AnMaster> ehird, but just look at SCO. And all the cease and desist letters sent to open source
23:44:21 <AnMaster> clearly evil lawyers are far from uncommon
23:44:27 <oklopol> the programs in our uni for everything law related are incredibly hard and tons of fun, according to what i've heard, and what i'm sure about.
23:44:31 <ehird> Idiotic swedes are far from uncommon
23:44:36 <ehird> Source: AnMaster is in this channel
23:44:45 <ehird> and makes up a large percentage of the swedes (in this channel)
23:44:51 <ehird> Great argument, there.
23:45:09 <ehird> Lojban update: .eli,yt.xyrd. is best
23:45:16 <AnMaster> ehird, what about open source game *similar* to starcraft in the idea. that got a ceast and desist letter
23:45:33 <ehird> AnMaster: And extrapolating from three examples, we can conclude that most lawyers are evil.
23:45:37 <AnMaster> anyway there are several others. Just use google
23:45:39 <ehird> oklopol: apparently
23:45:47 <ehird> Wow! SEVERAL OTHER evil lawyers!
23:45:47 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm too lazy to dig up examples for you
23:45:55 <ehird> There are also several evil secretaries.
23:46:03 <ehird> Now let's all make jokes about secretaries being evil scum.
23:46:27 <AnMaster> ehird, what about the lawyers of Boeing sending a DMCA notice to some author who had made a 3D model of some WW2 Boeing aircraft?
23:46:55 <ehird> Do you think at, like, 50 examples, the fundamental nature of your argument will change and be a valid way of showing that most lawyers are evil?
23:46:56 <oklopol> there's nothing evil about exploiting the legal system :o
23:47:15 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
23:47:18 <AnMaster> ehird, most lawyers involved with computer industry
23:47:28 <AnMaster> which is far from all of course
23:47:35 <ehird> AnMaster: No, that's simply false and idiotic.
23:47:42 <ehird> AnMaster: Guess what happens when a lawyer is really evil?
23:47:46 <ehird> It's reported on and made a fuss about.
23:47:50 <AnMaster> ehird, also I never claimed most before you suggested it
23:47:53 <ehird> AnMaster: Guess what happens when a lawyer is normal and decent?
23:48:01 <AnMaster> I just said it wasn't an insignificant percentage
23:48:06 <ehird> Because it's the most common thing.
23:48:16 <AnMaster> ehird, but maybe they should work more on PR then
23:48:36 <ehird> "Today in Sweden, a lawyer made reasoned legal arguments based on actual evidence."
23:48:39 <ehird> "A press conference was held."
23:48:48 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway why do you seem to take this personally?
23:48:51 <oklopol> i don't really believe in evil, but that may not be much of a surprise
23:49:08 <ehird> I don't take it personally, but I take offence to your generalisation of a perfectly fine group of people.
23:49:16 <ehird> If I take offence at a racist joke, am I black?
23:49:25 <ehird> (Or, fuck, white. Asian. Anything.)
23:50:01 <AnMaster> you should take offence instead
23:50:13 <ehird> No, I replace similar-sounding words like "uni" with "jewni".
23:50:26 <ehird> I don't say "As we all know, Jews are evil."
23:50:46 <ehird> If you replaced "voyeur" with "lawyeur", I wouldn't be taking offence.
23:50:55 <ehird> Although I'd probably wonder wtf you're on about.
23:51:46 <ehird> http://www.jewtube.com/
23:51:48 <ehird> It… actually exists.
23:52:07 <FireFly> And it's actually related to jewish videos
23:52:08 <oklopol> damn your fast internet connection
23:52:10 <ehird> [[JewTube is a free video sharing website comprising Jewish-oriented user-generated content. JewTube was founded by Jeremy Kossen, a Los Angeles-based entrepreneur.
23:52:11 <ehird> Visitors to the site can view videos on a wide array of Jewish-themed content, including everything from Jewish cooking to "alternative animated endings" to the Sacha Baron Cohen film, "Borat".[1]
23:52:13 <ehird> Google is challenging a New York City based company, NetParty, for the use of the name "JewTube", on trademark grounds. NetParty is not related or affiliated with the JewTube website.[2] In a related story, JewTube, having registered the JewTube domain a year before NetParty filed with the USPTO, also plans on contesting NetParty's LLC's filing.[3]]]
23:52:18 <ehird> Yes… Borat is… about Jewishness…
23:52:21 <oklopol> i just assumed it'd be spam
23:52:39 <ehird> Similarly, the Colbert Report is about catholicism.
23:53:31 <oklopol> was borat the one where the dude was an iraXian superman
23:54:02 <oklopol> well as if i could remember which
23:54:04 <ehird> oklopol: Kazakhstanian, actually.
23:54:09 <FireFly> Oh... faster than I thought... 11.34 Mbit/s
23:55:27 <oklopol> i don't know even which country kazakhstan is
23:55:42 <oklopol> i think it's one that's more wide than it's tall
23:55:51 <ehird> It's the ninth largest in the world, apparently.
23:55:54 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kazakhstan_(orthographic_projection).svg
23:56:03 <ehird> Not all that big. :P
23:56:57 <ehird> Their potassium is the BOMB, man.
23:57:01 <ehird> Totally potent shit.
23:58:08 <oklopol> now if only that image loaded at least a tiny bit faster
23:58:21 <pikhq> ehird: Sacha Baron Cohen is, in fact, Jewish.
23:58:36 <ehird> 23:52 ehird: Similarly, the Colbert Report is about catholicism.
23:58:39 <ehird> Colbert is also catholic.
23:58:44 <ehird> Doesn't mean it belongs on Catholitube.