00:00:05 <ehird> all the shit nobody uses!
00:00:08 <ehird> all long options, all the time!
00:00:37 <ehird> grub 2 booting gnu hurd booting gnome
00:00:41 <pikhq> Shush you. Long options are nice.
00:00:51 <ehird> Sgeo: yes, yes, so do i
00:00:57 <ehird> pikhq: looked at ls --help recently?
00:01:02 <ehird> hmm with bazaar to manage your code
00:01:04 <Sgeo> I mean, when I'm not using Windows >.>
00:01:34 <ehird> would be quite easily, actuall
00:01:41 <ehird> install Debian/kHURD
00:01:49 <ehird> and you're pretty much done
00:02:33 <ehird> although debian isn't really the platonic ideal
00:02:38 <ehird> can you get gNewSense/kHURD? :D
00:02:49 <GregorR> gNewSense is just reduced Debian ...
00:03:03 <ehird> GregorR: Exactly, reduced.
00:03:13 <ehird> GregorR: But uh, it's Ubuntu, isn't it?
00:03:38 <Sgeo> Is Stackless Python a good idea?
00:03:39 <ehird> Anyway, gNewSense/kHURD booted from GRUB 2 = an OS only rms could love.
00:03:56 <ehird> Sgeo: Don't bother actually using it, though.
00:04:21 <ehird> GregorR: Yah, it's Ubuntu-based
00:04:29 <ehird> Also ugly as fuck.
00:05:16 <ehird> Maybe there's a script to produce gNewSense from Debian, or somtehing.
00:05:18 <Sgeo> gNuisance? </bad-pun>
00:05:27 <ehird> Sgeo: That's not your pun, that's theirs.
00:06:05 <Sgeo> Note to self: Don't bother coming up with what I falsely think is original stuff
00:06:08 <ehird> "We're also the first distribution to remove GLX^, which Debian has ignored for years."
00:06:11 <pikhq> ehird: They've published their scripts.
00:06:13 <ehird> Thanks for the innovation, gNewSense!
00:06:24 <pikhq> Should be trivial to modify it for Debian.
00:06:45 <ehird> Sgeo: ^GLX is needed for hardware-accelerated 3d graphics in X. Recompiling X, and removing OpenGL, are required due to the non-free SGI Free B license.
00:07:01 <ehird> gNewSense are providing wonderful innovation by removing all 3d acceleration from X11!
00:07:05 <ehird> FREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOMFREE AS IN FREEDOM
00:07:14 <ehird> (Although, "(GLX was removed from gNewSense over its licencing issues, but has been re-introduced apon being freed early in 2009)". HOORAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYY?)
00:07:33 <pikhq> ... Never mind that X's GL support is not actually an OpenGL implementation.
00:07:54 <ehird> [[While Builder is geared towards gNewSense, with some modification it can be used to create and maintain a fork of any .deb based distribution.]]
00:07:58 <pikhq> Mesa != OpenGL. It just happens to be bug-for-bug compatible. :P
00:07:59 <ehird> RMS WOULD BE PROUD
00:08:08 <ehird> I'm now taking donations for a completely free system
00:08:10 <ehird> Coreboot and the rest
00:08:27 <ehird> I'll stick 100 photographs of rms all over the case.
00:08:33 <pikhq> ehird: They do not just say "all-free fork of any .deb-based distribution".
00:08:43 <ehird> pikhq: Nonono, I mean
00:08:47 <ehird> RMS would be proud because it means I can use it
00:09:02 <oerjan> FREEDOM FREE AS IN FREEDOM FREE
00:09:03 <ehird> For the amazing coreboot/GRUB 2/HURD/gNewSense/GNOME monstrosity.
00:09:29 <ehird> "No, LiveCDs are available from our Mirrors. You only need to download 30GB if you want to use Builder to create your own distribution."
00:09:29 <pikhq> More hardcore than Stallman.
00:09:56 <pikhq> That's the whole set of .debs.
00:09:57 <ehird> pikhq: I'll make the bootup sound the Free Software song.
00:10:12 <ehird> BEEP! Krrrnkrkrrrrnkkrrrrnk……………… JOIN US NOW AND SHARE THE SOFTWARE
00:10:15 <ehird> YOUUU'LL BE FREEEEEEEEEE, HACKERS
00:10:18 <ehird> YOUUUU'LL BE FREEEEEEEEE
00:10:27 <ehird> and it plays it out in total before showing the log in box
00:11:01 <Sgeo> Should I attempt to learn wxPython, or are there better GUI frameworks to learn?
00:11:04 <pikhq> A system even Stallman couldn't love.
00:11:17 <ehird> Sgeo: Just use a gtk or qt binding.
00:11:27 <ehird> Cross platform frameworks, in my experience, are simply The Suck.
00:11:32 <ehird> pikhq: gtkhs, actually.
00:11:48 <ehird> pikhq: gtk2hs, actually. :P
00:12:45 <Sgeo> The wiki is suggesting to install PythonCard??????
00:13:13 <ehird> The Python wiki is worthless.
00:13:19 <Sgeo> PythonCard is a crutch. I used it once because I needed the crutch.
00:13:22 <ehird> Sgeo: Just use a gtk binding, seriously.
00:13:45 <ehird> I commandest thou.
00:13:52 -!- augur_ has joined.
00:13:52 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:14:19 <Sgeo> "Version 2.4 Last updated 2005-04-13"
00:14:31 <ehird> Sgeo: Ok, so use another one.
00:14:40 <ehird> Sgeo: http://www.pygtk.org/
00:14:47 <ehird> Yeah, that's totally 2005.
00:14:58 <Sgeo> http://www.pygtk.org/tutorial.html
00:15:31 <Sgeo> The current version is 2.15
00:16:02 <Sgeo> Is the tutorial dangerously out-of-date, or out-of-date in a way that won't hurt me?
00:16:22 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-gb&q=pygtk+tutorial&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
00:16:33 <ehird> this isn't hard, man
00:16:37 <ehird> take some initiative
00:17:06 <ehird> that's what "take some initiative" means :-P
00:17:48 * Sgeo was hoping for a more official tutorial, I guess
00:22:34 <Sgeo> self.bardejov = gtk.gdk.pixbuf_new_from_file("bardejov.jpg")
00:23:24 <ehird> self.yourmom = ...
00:24:26 * Sgeo decides that this tutorial is crap
00:26:01 <ehird> the first decision Sgeo's ever made on his own :
00:34:20 * Sgeo may change his mind
00:35:36 * Sgeo is an /r/IAmA addict
00:38:30 <ehird> P.S. IAmA shithead
00:53:27 <AnMaster> wow nice integration. a man:ufw link on ubuntu's website popped up a dialog asking if I wanted to open it in the gnome help viewer thingy
00:53:46 <ehird> WTF AnMaster? You're ignored, stop appearing on my screen.
00:54:00 <AnMaster> ehird, why am I ignored though
00:54:04 <ehird> wtf you're not in the ignore list any more
00:54:06 <AnMaster> also your ignore must be broken
00:54:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I haxored your computer of c0urse
00:54:28 <ehird> also, I ignored you because I don't talk to people whose argumentative method is typing in uppercase
00:54:51 <ehird> But yes, man:foo works. apt:foo does too.
00:54:51 <AnMaster> ehird, it turned out I was right though. I think ais relayed that
00:55:34 * AnMaster considers convincing a user to add a new repo then give him/her apt:malware
00:55:47 <ehird> Or just tell them to type 'sudo apt-get install malware'
00:55:49 <AnMaster> yeah it fails because of the "adding a new repo bit"
00:56:02 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, I don't care whether you were right; there are plenty of atheists whose argument is "YOU'RE A FUCKEN SHEEP GOD IS NOT REAL BECAUSE YOU'RE A SHEEP"; they're right that god isn't real, but they're still idiots.
00:56:15 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't remember using upper case
00:56:30 <AnMaster> I'm not going to argue about that any more
00:56:32 <ehird> 16:25:19 <AnMaster> ehird, ^
00:56:32 <ehird> 16:25:22 <AnMaster> HAPPY NOW?
00:56:50 <AnMaster> suffice to say that xchat works after updating gtkspell to last version
00:57:22 <AnMaster> ehird, meanwhile I finally got around to setting up genera
00:57:35 <oerjan> ehird: NOW STOP BEING SILLY
00:58:02 <AnMaster> ehird, ubuntu in the vm because that was all I could find instructions for _and_ it seemed horribly complex anyway
00:58:04 <ehird> oerjan: YOU'RE A FAGGOT
00:58:20 <AnMaster> ehird, plus I already had the iso downloaded
00:58:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, it's a VM running an emulator for an obscure architecture with old software, hacked so that it claws at various parts of the filesystem.
00:58:45 <ehird> Not exactly… pretty.
00:59:19 <AnMaster> ehird, expert mode for install of ubuntu was fun. It was like the worse than LFS + a lot automated:
00:59:39 <AnMaster> Asked after I selected keyboard layout if I had an AltGr key, and if so where
00:59:46 <AnMaster> Didn't ask about what packages to install
00:59:48 <ehird> Ubuntu's expert install is basically Debian's install, which is very similar to Arch's install.
00:59:56 <ehird> AnMaster: because asking for the packages defeats the point
01:00:00 <ehird> the point is the one package, ubuntu-deskto
01:00:14 <ehird> and you never remove it or its dependencies
01:00:14 <ehird> that way the base set of desktop packages are kept in sync
01:00:15 * Sgeo wonders what a deskto\np us
01:00:15 <ehird> so that apps can be added/removed/replaced each version
01:00:22 <ehird> Sgeo: /me wonders what us is.
01:00:28 <ehird> s/deskto\np/desktop/
01:00:41 <AnMaster> ehird, well, not even arch asks if you have an altgr key
01:00:56 * Sgeo wonders what /me is
01:00:57 -!- ehird has changed nick to Bill_Clinton.
01:00:59 <AnMaster> and it asked some other extremely strange things
01:01:05 <Bill_Clinton> It depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is.
01:01:13 <Bill_Clinton> If "is" means is and never has been, that is one thing.
01:01:16 <AnMaster> Bill_Clinton, what is this a reference to?
01:01:20 <Bill_Clinton> If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement.
01:01:32 <Bill_Clinton> AnMaster: Bill Clinton justifying "there's nothing going on between us" wrt Monica Lewinsky.
01:01:51 -!- Bill_Clinton has changed nick to ehird.
01:02:05 -!- Xiin_ has joined.
01:02:20 <ehird> Something like that :P
01:02:37 * Sgeo is not using Windows
01:02:40 <AnMaster> ehird, took several seconds to work THAT one out heh
01:02:51 * Sgeo is not in Second Life
01:02:56 * ehird is not being molested by a bear
01:03:00 * ehird is not drinking petrol
01:03:05 <ehird> ↑ How to know you're living a good life
01:03:07 <AnMaster> ehird, btw I'm using my desktop but with krdc to do remote dekstop. Much better position of monitor
01:03:25 <ehird> You know, I'm not sure you understand the point of laptops :P
01:03:40 <AnMaster> ehird, sure. But it isn't working 8 hours in front of one
01:03:51 <ehird> Funny how VNC over a fast enough connection will be faster.
01:03:56 <ehird> (than the connecter)
01:03:56 -!- Xiin has quit (Nick collision from services.).
01:03:59 <ehird> (since your laptop is faster)
01:04:01 -!- Xiin_ has changed nick to Xiin.
01:04:23 <AnMaster> also I had to file a bug in ubuntu
01:04:23 * Sgeo is using his laptop at his desk. His desktop is Pentium III, 512MB nVidia RIVA TNT2
01:04:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Heh; link?
01:05:00 <Sgeo> This laptop uses Intel Integrated graphics, but that's still better than TNT2
01:05:03 <ehird> And to think this measly Core 2 Duo 2.16ghz w/ just 2.5GB of RAM and some crappy ATI Radeon card annoys me :-P
01:05:08 <AnMaster> ehird, https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/405339
01:05:30 <ehird> It was worth the ~£1,000 in 2006, though.
01:05:54 <ehird> AnMaster: That looks incredibly automated.
01:06:01 <ehird> Or at least copy-paste.
01:06:02 <Sgeo> Um, didn't realize that this laptop was Dual Core or whatever?
01:06:07 <Sgeo> I see 2 processors
01:06:24 <ehird> Sgeo: Well, I doubt you have 2 actual processors in there :P
01:06:34 <ehird> I love being nostalgic about things I never experienced.
01:06:38 <ehird> For instance, dual Pentium 4 boards.
01:06:53 <Sgeo> Processor 0: Genuine Intel(R) CPU T2050 @ 160GHz
01:06:58 <Sgeo> Processor 1: Genuine Intel(R) CPU T2050 @ 160GHz
01:06:59 <pikhq> It also functioned as a space heater.
01:07:12 <ehird> I think my computer lobe fetishises the concept of "workstation".
01:07:28 <Sgeo> I meant 1.60 GHz
01:07:29 <ehird> I think because I remember my dad's Pentium 4 tower, and how the case was taller than other comptuers.
01:07:33 <ehird> It just seems… cool.
01:07:39 <Sgeo> This really isn't a super-secret NSA computer
01:07:42 <ehird> Dual processors! Tall cases! Sun! UltraSPARC!
01:07:52 <ehird> 19" liquid crystal display!
01:08:22 <ehird> I'm also enamoured with old clusters of 80s/90s commodity (i.e. 300mhz) hardware.
01:08:36 <AnMaster> very well I shall make them happy
01:08:43 <AnMaster> since I suspect it quitted not crashed
01:08:51 <ehird> Not quitted; "quat"!
01:08:58 <ehird> Oh man quat, my new favourite word.
01:09:02 <ehird> "Yeah, the application quat on me."
01:09:12 <ehird> AnMaster: (But really — "quit" not "quitted")
01:21:24 <AnMaster> ehird, actually it did crash it seems
01:21:40 <AnMaster> ehird, however I doubt most users would have managed to debug this
01:21:45 <AnMaster> I had to attach gdb to a running process
01:22:04 <AnMaster> (and most people probably wouldn't be able to find out how)
01:22:20 <ehird> A lot of — even most, I'd say — Ubuntu users don't even know what the Terminal is for and have never opened it.
01:23:01 <AnMaster> in fact I had to google how. Since I couldn't find it in gdb --help output
01:23:09 <ehird> Pthing: No, very likely.
01:23:14 <ehird> I know at least one.
01:23:26 <ehird> because non-technical people use Ubuntu, too
01:23:30 <AnMaster> Pthing, are you agreeing or disagreeing?
01:23:54 <ehird> I think Pthing's stuck in the "Linux is for übernerds and it's impossible for it to be usable by nontechnical people (who are inherently idiotic)" mindset.
01:23:57 <Pthing> they'll know what it's for
01:24:21 <Pthing> "people aren't idiots and know what the magic black dos window is for, and they've followed instructions to use it at least once"
01:24:38 <AnMaster> Pthing, that is equally outdated
01:24:39 <ehird> I know at least one who doesn't because they've never had to use it.
01:24:50 <Pthing> of how many people who use ubuntu that you know
01:24:54 <ehird> Also, nobody who isn't a geek knows what a DOS prompt looks like is.
01:25:01 <AnMaster> Pthing, I can just look at my dad that doesn't even know what "c:" is for
01:25:06 <Pthing> it's the black dos box
01:25:11 <ehird> Pthing: Uhh, you're an idiot.
01:25:16 <AnMaster> only since he got an usb memory stick he knows what "my computer" is for
01:25:19 <Pthing> lots of people know about the black dos box!
01:25:26 <AnMaster> clearly I wouldn't even recommend him to use ubuntu
01:25:45 <AnMaster> however he is quite good at one thing. Some sort of statistical application called "SPSS"
01:25:50 <Pthing> really, saying that most people have no idea what the magic black thing is
01:25:59 <Pthing> is *way* more "linux is for ubernerds"
01:26:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Everyone I've turned to Ubuntu has resoundingly said it's easier than Windows
01:26:08 <ehird> Pthing: no, it's not
01:26:28 <AnMaster> ehird, he needs SPSS. I doubt it would run under wine. And it is his work that pays for the computer
01:26:31 <Pthing> You're making out like the command line prompt is this amazingly obscure piece of the OS
01:26:36 <ehird> your assertions are beaten by my living counterevidence
01:26:40 <Pthing> and nobody has ever seen anything like it except for ubernerds
01:26:48 <ehird> so I don't even care about arguing about your cognitive biases.
01:26:50 <Pthing> Anybody has used computers for any length of time
01:26:58 <Pthing> will be entirely *aware* of the DOS command line
01:27:02 <Pthing> even if they never used it much
01:27:03 <ehird> welcome to delusionville, population: billions
01:27:15 <AnMaster> actually I think lots of people seen it. But then forgot it again, along with the "do you really want to run this active X control" dialog
01:27:26 <ehird> ooh, ooh, I like this one
01:27:26 <AnMaster> ehird, becuase it pops up during service pack update
01:27:31 <ehird> this is the one where you rebut my arguments by saying i'm young
01:27:46 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't recall that
01:27:58 <Pthing> this is relevant, not an ad hominem
01:28:05 <ehird> I'm listening. Skeptically.
01:28:06 <AnMaster> ehird, hm ok. Only for like half a second. and that is XP SP3. No idea about vista
01:28:32 <AnMaster> Pthing, the sum of our ages are much greater than your age :P
01:28:34 <Pthing> you ever fucked around with autoexec.bat to get a DOS game working because of the stupid himem requirements?
01:28:39 <AnMaster> and I'm quite close to your age
01:28:49 <ehird> Surprisingly, statistically, NOBODY DOES THAT.
01:28:54 <ehird> Well, actually, I'm not sure I've done that in particular.
01:29:01 <Pthing> People USED to have to do that
01:29:04 <Pthing> in the brief period between
01:29:07 <ehird> Pthing: How many people do you actually know that have used a computer?
01:29:13 <AnMaster> Pthing, lots of people didn't use computers back then
01:29:16 <Pthing> b) windows XP made everything nice
01:29:17 <ehird> Most of them don't know what the fuck Windows is.
01:29:19 <ehird> They think internet is the E.
01:29:25 <ehird> They don't know what a tab is.
01:29:29 <AnMaster> I know people only getting computers a few years ago
01:29:29 <ehird> The only other program is Word.
01:29:35 <ehird> click the shiny ad banner!
01:29:41 <AnMaster> and never using dos under windows 9x
01:29:47 <ehird> Yes, this is condescending; I'm using hyperbole to counter.
01:29:59 <AnMaster> ehird, you forgot outlook express
01:30:10 <ehird> "Everyone who's used a computer for long enough knows about cmd.exe"
01:30:13 <ehird> Simply, truly false.
01:30:24 <Pthing> They don't necessarily *conceptualise* it as cmd.exe
01:30:25 <ehird> AnMaster: What is that? My email is hot mail dot com.
01:30:31 <Pthing> or anything but "the black dos box"
01:30:32 <ehird> Pthing: why would they have ever seen it?
01:30:34 <ehird> they never run programs
01:30:38 <ehird> apart from IE and word
01:30:43 <Pthing> suppose their computer broke, right
01:30:46 <Pthing> so they had to find some nerd
01:30:52 <ehird> Pthing: Hi, this is your uncle
01:30:54 <ehird> Can you fix my computer?
01:31:01 <ehird> I'm back, is it done yet?
01:31:05 <ehird> Okay, that's good. Bye now.
01:31:11 <Pthing> HEY PTHING, WHAT'S THAT BLACK THING
01:31:13 <ehird> Pthing: sorry, i'm already looking away.
01:31:18 <Pthing> I've been asked lots of times
01:31:20 <AnMaster> I know this. because I have been in that position
01:31:20 <Pthing> what the black thing is
01:31:28 <AnMaster> they just sit a bit away and look without seeing
01:31:36 <ehird> i don't fix computers for free any more anyway :P
01:31:50 <AnMaster> and possibly ask something at some point but give up at a highly technical answer
01:32:09 <AnMaster> ehird, nor do I any more. Except for parents. Due to still living at home this is tactical
01:32:10 <ehird> anyway, they don't remember the black box
01:32:15 <ehird> it's not nearly important enough for them to remember
01:32:20 <ehird> black box, it's dos, uhhh okay
01:32:30 <Pthing> they have *been exposed to it*
01:32:33 <ehird> what's that black box?
01:32:53 <Pthing> I seriously do think, not being patronising or insulting or anything
01:32:55 <AnMaster> ehird, Pthing: It's like the "do you want to run this active x control" leak!
01:33:02 <Pthing> this is due to the OVERWHELMING GAP OF YEARS BETWEEN US
01:33:05 <ehird> i'm not sure asking an offhand question about a black box and ignoring the answer counts as being exposed
01:33:11 <AnMaster> or "security cert invalid" leak
01:33:18 <Pthing> a lot of people have started using computers since
01:33:27 <AnMaster> Pthing, not such a large gap for me. I'm 19
01:33:32 <ehird> Pthing: 9 years isn't exactly overwhelming.
01:33:42 <Pthing> it is in the magical realm of computers, ehird!
01:33:51 <ehird> "what's that black box?"
01:34:01 <ehird> AnMaster: is about silicon.
01:34:33 <AnMaster> ehird, but my point is stuff change fast as a "spin off effect" of that when it comes to computer
01:34:45 <ehird> this is pointless anyway
01:34:45 <Pthing> So it is this reasoning that makes me think you are mostly incorrect in your assertion.
01:34:47 <AnMaster> a 386 couldn't have run a nice UI as xp
01:34:57 <ehird> if I asked a nontechnical ubuntu user what that terminal entry is without clicking on it
01:34:59 <Pthing> to presently be in the same kind of situation that windows computing was in all those years ago
01:35:02 <ehird> they'd give me a blank stare
01:35:04 <AnMaster> ehird, nor would stuff fit on the harddrives from then
01:35:11 <ehird> most ubuntu users never have to use the terminal
01:35:28 <Pthing> In the absence of any actual evidence
01:35:35 <Pthing> all either of us has for that is our gut feeling
01:35:39 <AnMaster> I think you could easily avoid that yes
01:35:40 <ehird> i can only give the anecdotal because i'm not running a fucking study
01:35:45 <Pthing> you have your one guy who doesn't know
01:35:46 <ehird> but it's not a gut feeling
01:35:52 <Pthing> I don't have the one guy
01:35:57 <AnMaster> unless you want to make use of more advanced features
01:36:02 <ehird> even the fucking printer/scanner combo worked without any drivers
01:36:04 <ehird> in xsane of all things
01:36:20 <ehird> xsane isn't exactly the most user-friendly of software
01:36:26 <AnMaster> ehird, well... I have to install cups of course there
01:36:28 <ehird> in no aspect was it more technical or less user friendly than windows
01:36:35 <Pthing> is probably somewhere in the middle~~
01:36:36 <AnMaster> but point is, cups and hplip are pre-installed
01:36:37 <ehird> and, I posit, in most cases it is MORE
01:36:47 <AnMaster> so I could just hook my printer/scanner up
01:36:56 <ehird> AnMaster: not relevant
01:37:02 <AnMaster> I will now close all terminals on the laptop and try the printer
01:37:20 <ehird> Pthing: i see you're using ubuntu; I believe this is contributing to your bias
01:37:33 <ehird> which means you have to use the terminal and other arcana more
01:37:36 <ehird> to get your technical stuff done
01:37:41 <ehird> thus shifting your general perception of ubuntu
01:37:47 <Pthing> Wouldn't have denied it even if you'd asked, and not VERSION'd me!
01:37:59 <Pthing> however, this psychology game goes both ways
01:38:01 <ehird> versioning requires less cognitive overhead :P
01:38:09 <pikhq> Of course, most of that stuff is stuff you'd use the terminal for on OS X.
01:38:10 <AnMaster> by the way: getting this printer to work under windows was a PITA
01:38:14 <pikhq> And probably couldn't do on Windows.
01:38:17 <Pthing> I ACCUSE YOU OF WARCRIMES
01:38:20 <AnMaster> it works flawlessly under linux
01:38:29 <AnMaster> I can really recommend HP for printers
01:38:32 <Pthing> overcompensating for YOUR OWN technical wizardry
01:38:40 <ehird> Pthing: BUT THE TRUMP CARD:
01:38:41 <AnMaster> and there it popped up a dialog asking me about the printer on ubuntu
01:38:43 <ehird> MY ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE
01:39:00 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yeah, HP makes good printers and has wonderful Linux support.
01:39:01 <AnMaster> asking me to add it with all stuff except letter/a4 filled out correctly
01:39:10 <AnMaster> THAT is a bit more than gentoo does
01:39:21 <ehird> AnMaster: didn't even ask $user on ubuntu
01:39:21 <AnMaster> there I have to use the cups webadmin thiny for printing
01:39:24 <ehird> it just appeared in the print dialog
01:39:33 <Pthing> Now, I *would* accept your original, weaker assertion
01:39:40 <ehird> AnMaster: nontechnical person human.
01:39:46 <Pthing> that there exist *a lot* of Ubuntu users who don't know or use the terminal
01:39:52 <Pthing> That seems undeniable.
01:40:10 <ehird> Pthing: i think we're agreeing
01:40:14 <Pthing> If only all of those grannies who have nerdy grandsons
01:40:16 <AnMaster> ehird, it asked user here. But everything except paper format correctly filled out
01:40:25 <AnMaster> ehird, scanning wouldn't require that though
01:40:27 <Pthing> so they can use the internets and post pictures of cats and jesus and knitting and whatever
01:40:46 <pikhq> Pthing: What, exactly, is your point?
01:40:47 <ehird> ubuntu's install process consists of blindly clicking next :P
01:40:50 <ehird> anyway, i gotta go
01:41:01 <Pthing> My point is that although I entirely agree with this, I suspect ehird is INCORRECT AND NEEDS TO GO FOR A NAP
01:41:10 <ehird> we sleep BEFORE SIX AM
01:41:19 <AnMaster> ehird, um, partitioning has a sane default?
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01:41:47 <Pthing> right-wing hate groups, though.
01:42:17 <Pthing> I think I've seen stats for them and they mostly seem to use IE6
01:42:44 <AnMaster> Pthing, anyway I needed to click next 7 times iirc when installing ubuntu... I was *confused* by it because I'm used to stuff like Arch Linux and Gentoo
01:42:56 <AnMaster> I was wondering where on earth package selection was
01:43:00 <Pthing> well man you are having entirely the opposite problem
01:43:44 <AnMaster> Pthing, I wouldn't be *here* if I was the other type of user would I?
01:44:07 <AnMaster> oh and xsane works out of box with no config stuff or installing anything
01:44:12 <AnMaster> nice test page printed by cups
01:44:30 <Pthing> you could have stumbled here looking for like
01:44:38 <Pthing> secrets of the rosicrucian freemasons of mu
01:44:47 <AnMaster> but I have been here for ages about programming
01:44:59 <AnMaster> 2006? 2007? something like that
01:45:25 <AnMaster> fun thing: it was ehird who invited me originally
01:46:53 <Pthing> I stick by what I said, btw
01:47:08 <Pthing> My natural tendency is to think the same
01:47:17 <AnMaster> Pthing, you mean you are stubborn?
01:47:36 <Pthing> But I keep getting surprised - mildly surprised - by bumping into people who know what the command line is on some level
01:47:46 <Pthing> so I keep having to revise this assumption
01:48:05 <Pthing> It's not a particularly *deep* understanding of it
01:48:14 <Pthing> but it's definite recognition
01:48:15 <AnMaster> Pthing, bumping into them where?
01:48:26 <Pthing> Like when I fix their computer
01:48:37 <Pthing> They're about my age, though
01:48:49 <Pthing> because I keep going like
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01:49:06 <Pthing> and then sometimes they ask why I keep making hilarious mistakes
01:49:40 <AnMaster> Pthing, I refuse to touch any windows computer which lacks cygwin
01:49:53 <Pthing> man you are a crazy religious person
01:50:17 <Pthing> i am looking at you now
01:50:22 <Pthing> STONE ALL ADULTERESSES
01:50:34 * AnMaster wonders how to make double clicking on a *.aac play the file under ubuntu
01:50:41 <AnMaster> I get errors about not being able to decode
01:50:48 <AnMaster> and... I don't know about this "totem"
01:51:18 <AnMaster> Pthing, yeah right. I'm an atheist :P
01:51:34 <AnMaster> but I'm not sure about that either
01:53:25 <Pthing> there are codecs available for it somewhere i think
01:53:32 <Pthing> one of the huge packs, poorly hidden
01:53:56 <AnMaster> Pthing, no need for codec since there is libfaad which is open source
01:54:03 <AnMaster> it should just be able to use it
01:59:15 <AnMaster> what is normal temperature for a mobile core2?
01:59:31 <AnMaster> I don't like that it easily hits 62 C without fan spinning up
01:59:43 <AnMaster> in fact fan seems to always be at close to zero
02:00:25 <AnMaster> it is reported by acpi as about 1990-2000 RPM all the time... but I never hear any fan noise at all
02:47:14 <GregorR> http://lonelydino.com/ wooh
02:47:20 <GregorR> Better yet, somebody who is utterly not me will be uploading them :P
02:55:14 <augur_> my blackboard is almost complete!
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03:57:08 <GregorR> http://lonelydino.com/ wooh content
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08:01:39 <oklopol> GregorR: just out of curiosity, what's the difference between not you, and utterly not you? is it nearly as great as between you and not you?
08:21:08 <oklopol> also is that a daily comic
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10:30:20 <ehird> 17:50:17 <Pthing> i am looking at you now
10:30:20 <ehird> 17:50:19 <Pthing> and I am hearing
10:30:21 <ehird> 17:50:22 <Pthing> STONE ALL ADULTERESSES
10:30:21 <ehird> 17:50:29 <Pthing> DON'T EAT SWINEFLESH
10:30:24 <ehird> 17:50:34 * AnMaster wonders how to make double clicking on a *.aac play the file under ubuntu
10:30:30 <ehird> install the codecs from your local package manager
10:30:44 <ehird> 17:53:56 <AnMaster> Pthing, no need for codec since there is libfaad which is open source
10:30:46 <ehird> um that is a codec
10:31:01 <ehird> 17:59:15 <AnMaster> what is normal temperature for a mobile core2?
10:31:01 <ehird> 17:59:31 <AnMaster> I don't like that it easily hits 62 C without fan spinning up
10:31:06 <ehird> send it back send it back!
10:31:30 <AnMaster> it never strays over 63 for more than a second though
10:31:30 <ehird> not necessarily but temperatures >=60 are… not good
10:31:38 <ehird> AnMaster: what does it idle at?
10:31:54 <AnMaster> ehird, idle temp? around 30-35
10:32:10 <ehird> AnMaster: tweak your bios fan control settings?
10:32:17 <AnMaster> ehird, will look at that in a bit
10:32:33 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, fingerprint reader is too new to be supported under linux yet
10:32:47 <AnMaster> someone posted an initial trace of it and there is work under way
10:32:56 <AnMaster> ehird, not a major issue for me :P
10:33:33 <ehird> <reddit> This Turtle Has An Awesome Orgasm
10:33:45 <AnMaster> ehird, running windows under virtualbox tends to make it hit 58-61 C on one core and a bit lower on the other core
10:33:55 <AnMaster> in fact, the second core is always slightly warmer than the other one
10:34:20 <AnMaster> I guess one of them is closer to some hot component
10:34:25 <ehird> AnMaster: check the non-core temperature
10:34:50 <AnMaster> ehird, which one? There are like a gazillionplex of temp sensors in this
10:35:53 <AnMaster> ehird, ah overall cpu one... well that one *always* report the same as the hottest core. +/- 1 second update lag.
10:36:26 <ehird> AnMaster: try stressing the two cpus
10:36:39 <ehird> f () { while true; do; done }
10:36:45 <ehird> virtualbox might not max them out
10:37:17 <AnMaster> ehird, you need something more for bash to accept that:
10:38:00 <ehird> AnMaster: also, "do :"
10:38:03 <ehird> you don't need that ;
10:38:16 <ehird> anyway, just measure what it peaks at.
10:38:52 <AnMaster> fan speed has gone from 1908 > 1988
10:39:09 <ehird> that fan's working hard
10:39:13 <AnMaster> ehird, I still can't hear the fan
10:39:17 <AnMaster> it is the speed reported though
10:39:22 <ehird> AnMaster: if the fan's at 1988rpm, it should be below 58…
10:39:34 <ehird> AnMaster: put your head to it
10:39:37 <ehird> is the fan actually on?
10:39:56 <ehird> might be faulty motor etc
10:40:18 <ehird> although 60 is quite low for a passive core 2 without a good heatsink…
10:40:27 <ehird> though I guess the mobile has an effect, obviously
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10:43:00 <AnMaster> ehird, well going to check for fan stuff in bios now. If I can't find anything I'm going to try http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/How_to_control_fan_speed
10:43:10 <ehird> check the fan first physically
10:43:13 <ehird> i don't think it's on
10:43:26 <ehird> AnMaster: the hottest place
10:43:33 <ehird> touch. like with your hands.
10:43:46 <ehird> (not with your lap. unless you want to be infertile.)
10:44:33 <AnMaster> ehird, the hottest place, and probable place for exit air is near where the power cable enter
10:44:41 <ehird> just move your ear around
10:44:43 <ehird> if you hear a fan…
10:44:58 <AnMaster> need to change room, my desktop is a bit noisy in the bg.. brb
10:45:34 <ehird> Idle temperature is typically around 30-50°C.
10:45:34 <ehird> Temperature at full utilisation is around 60-70°C.
10:45:53 <ehird> if you can't hear the fan, worth putting it up a bit
10:46:01 <ehird> (that source is from thinkwiki btw)
10:55:39 * AnMaster just connected to bouncer from laptop
10:55:49 <AnMaster> no away log since desktop was never disconnected
10:56:23 <ehird> nobody said anything
10:56:27 <ehird> AnMaster: did you tweak the temps?
10:56:28 <AnMaster> there is some air flow near the outlet
10:56:51 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean that fancontrol stuff? No
10:57:02 <ehird> the computer is completely inaudible with your ear right next to it?
10:57:18 <AnMaster> ehird, well with ear next to it there is a very faint sound
10:57:31 <ehird> AnMaster: boot into bios
10:57:36 <ehird> it won't spin the harddrive there
10:57:38 <AnMaster> though harddrive is in the opposite end
10:58:00 <AnMaster> and the noise is different with ear nere hd
10:58:25 <ehird> as i said, eliminate the HD from the equation so you can be sure
10:58:54 <AnMaster> ehird, also this room is no longer quiet due to mom deciding to melt butter (it's the kitchen)
10:59:09 <ehird> i'm dissociating that from context and it's funny
10:59:19 <ehird> <mother> *walks in, gets butter*
10:59:26 <ehird> <mother> *melts butter*
10:59:32 <ehird> <mother> *pours melted butter out*
10:59:34 <ehird> <mother> *walks out*
11:00:51 <AnMaster> system monitor in ubuntu reports 100/100 for cpu load
11:00:58 <AnMaster> it doesn't seem to be going higher
11:01:28 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, there might be a fan noise, but it isn't at 1993 rpm
11:01:28 <ehird> AnMaster: go in to the bios and force the fan's lowest speed to the highest it can go and then reboot
11:01:36 <ehird> 1993rpm should really be making noise
11:01:44 <ehird> if 3000rpm doesn't or whatever, it's not running
11:01:52 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe fan speed is misreported
11:02:04 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't see a setting for it in bios... but will look again
11:07:43 <AnMaster> ehird, was in bios but found no setting for it
11:07:55 <ehird> run one of the fan control thingies from thinkwiki then
11:08:02 <ehird> just to boost it up temporarily\
11:09:19 <AnMaster> "To enable fan control, the module parameter fan_control=1 must be given to thinkpad-acpi. "
11:09:26 <ehird> http://www.losethos.com/FBI.html is gone :-(
11:09:49 <ehird> http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:mTVkrnVdYREJ:www.losethos.com/FBI.html+http://www.losethos.com/FBI.html&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=safari
11:10:41 <ehird> "I hope God is happy. Are you happy, God? God talks to me. I try to make Him happy. I do comics as offerings and He talks back. You have to hold-up your end of the conversation." — losethos2, 2007-11-19, OSnews
11:10:47 <ehird> Truly irretrievably insane.
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11:15:48 <ehird> WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEER
11:15:53 <anm_ub> echo level 7 > /proc/ibm/fan # slowly more and more sound, until it reaches a quite noticable level
11:16:06 <ehird> who wants to tell them first
11:16:23 <anm_ub> module renamed "thinkpad_acpi"
11:16:29 <anm_ub> renaming interface would break stuff
11:16:44 <anm_ub> anyway you are supposed to use /sys nowdays
11:16:58 <ehird> if I could execute a command that punches you every time you try and ruin my jokes, i'd… uhh
11:17:17 <anm_ub> ehird, when at most noise reported speed was 3064 RPM
11:17:30 <anm_ub> and that was quite low noise level compared to my desktop
11:17:49 <anm_ub> where the cpu fan alone is running at around that speed
11:17:58 <anm_ub> then there is the GPU fan and the PSU fan
11:18:08 <anm_ub> not sure about the speeds of them
11:19:02 <anm_ub> ehird, the harddrive seems to make a sound at around the same pitch as a crt monitor when it is seeking btw. But you only hear it with the ear close to
11:19:14 <ehird> pretty sure every HD does.
11:19:42 <anm_ub> ehird, well. my desktop makes a much lower freq sound when seeking
11:21:15 <anm_ub> http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/How_to_control_fan_speed#Using_a_stock_kernel <-- a bit wtf though:
11:21:27 <anm_ub> If you receive a PERMISSION DENIED error you can use the following command syntax instead as a work-around:
11:21:27 <anm_ub> # echo level 0 (fan off)
11:21:36 <anm_ub> like, just outputting to the terminal?
11:21:44 <anm_ub> well, sure no permission denied
11:21:49 <anm_ub> not very useful either!
11:22:02 <anm_ub> wouldn't call it a "workaround" as such
11:24:28 <anm_ub> anyway bbl moving back to usual room
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11:28:02 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:mTVkrnVdYREJ:www.losethos.com/FBI.html+http://www.losethos.com/FBI.html&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=safari <-- huh what is it about
11:28:37 <ehird> see yesterday's logs for explanation; basically he's a totally crazy nutjob that has a really, really crazy operating system
11:28:44 <ehird> and posts on reddit about it
11:28:45 <AnMaster> but I don't understand what about it
11:28:46 <ehird> and is hilariously insane
11:28:50 <ehird> and his OS is hilariously insane
11:29:03 <AnMaster> ehird, it talks about c:\* and such so it runs on top of windows?
11:29:05 <oklopol> is it an os that asks god what the user wants to do so the user doesn't have to do anything
11:29:17 <ehird> AnMaster: the os is a "secondary" one because it's useless as shit
11:29:28 <ehird> AnMaster: from "tongues", anyway, I guess it's basically grabbing random words from the bible
11:29:32 <AnMaster> what the hell is a "secondary OS"
11:29:43 <ehird> some choice reddit posts of his:
11:29:53 <ehird> [[I used to argue with the answerbook.]] // no context whatsoever to this one
11:29:59 <ehird> [[There is no GPL code in LoseThos, it's 100% professional quality.]]
11:30:04 <ehird> when questioned wtf he meant:
11:30:08 <ehird> [[By definition, it's not professional.]]
11:30:18 <ehird> he keeps resubmitting his os with a different title
11:30:27 <ehird> [[I think it's funny -- if you presented God of the old testament to people in disguise, they'd call Him Satan! people have a proud of heart notion of God that they could never sincerely love. Mom said heaven is a never ending family reunion! Be careful what you wish for, though, God told me war was "servicemen competing". Yikes!
11:30:27 <ehird> God says... etexts smell remittest really necessarily died harbouring adorned glided neglecting slumbers list passing AM very recite protect wearied moments Gutenberg preventedst directing
11:30:27 <ehird> I'd like to share a couple hilarious passages from the old Testament, but they're too long. The book of Numbers chapter 11 is hilarious.]]
11:30:39 <ehird> I don't think etexts is in the bible; some other corpus
11:30:50 <ehird> [[Don't be an America hater. Don't reject gifts from God. Little girls are made of sugar and spice... God gives toys, not just cloths on Christmas:]] // ew
11:31:00 <ehird> [[if you guys really care about abortion, why don't you argue from the Bible? There's plenty of stuff to support abortion. At issue is hatred of religion.
11:31:00 <ehird> What's up with feminazi lesbo's who love dead babies? I don't get it? Why do they care so much about making dead babies?
11:31:01 <ehird> Pearls of wisdom: evolution obsessed people are all NAZI's who want to exterminate blacks. Pro-choice women are all lesbo's.]]
11:31:03 <ehird> ↑ that's my favourite
11:31:16 <ehird> he's totally crazy :D
11:31:17 <AnMaster> is he a bible fanatic or hater?
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11:31:30 <ehird> he's christian but i don't even know
11:31:54 <ehird> he says he's an "evolutionist" and "believes" in evolution (total fail there already) then goes and compares it to nazism
11:32:03 <ehird> [[Umm... You're not confusing Godtalk with spam, are you? Stare at it a while and you'll begin to comprehend. haven't you read the Bible? interpreting stuff from God is a skill.]]
11:32:21 <ehird> Dear reddit, can you do something about spam?
11:32:22 <ehird> Lately I am seeing a lot of spam on "rising" and "new" sections of proggit. May be signing up on reddit is easier and hence spamming reddit is easier, but reddit needs to do something about it (also folks visiting "rising" and "new" sections should downvote such links)
11:32:31 <ehird> they're talking about your god talk.
11:33:07 <ehird> [[strawman. I think you're full of shit. Straw man is when you pick a silly example of your opponents position and argue with that. Like picking no vaccine, men on dinosaur, religious people to argue against religion.]] // on a post that was merely a story about an ultra-NIH programmer and didn't mention him
11:33:09 <ehird> sensitive sensitive
11:33:23 <ehird> [[Most other "64-bit" operating systems still have 4Gig address maps, I'm pretty sure.]] // no point even bothering to show the rest of the comment
11:33:29 <AnMaster> downside of black laptop compared to white: fingerprints on outside clearly visible as areas of deeper black
11:33:51 <AnMaster> wouldn't be visible on one of those white macbooks
11:33:59 <ehird> [[Try Losethos, http://www.losethos.com for master/slave multicore with no abstraction -- direct control for dividing tasks and specifying which cores to run them on. See http://www.losethos.com/flightsim.html for a video of an 8 core flight simulator video with code.]] // master/slave without abstraction? dude! do you hate lincoln or something?
11:34:08 <ehird> AnMaster: yes but dust shows up very easily on white
11:34:22 <ehird> AnMaster: the plain MacBook is white/black plastic
11:34:26 <AnMaster> ehird, that is true. easier to brush off
11:34:35 <ehird> the MacBook Pro (Pro now means the design… :\) now has a 13" model
11:34:40 <ehird> the actual MacBook is really just entry level
11:34:41 <AnMaster> ehird, wasn't there some "whole body" thingy recently...
11:34:51 <ehird> all the pros are unibody (not separate case components, all one thing) aluminium
11:34:54 <ehird> with a glass screen cover
11:35:15 <AnMaster> ehird, that makes changing battery a pain
11:35:30 <ehird> AnMaster: that's fine; the battery isn't replaceable by the user anyway.
11:35:39 <ehird> you do have an apple store near you right?
11:35:49 <ehird> AnMaster: uhh, I think so, yes…
11:35:57 <AnMaster> ehird, that was sarcastic right?
11:36:22 <ehird> AnMaster: note that the new macbook pro batteries are rated for a long time
11:36:30 <AnMaster> ehird, answer: No. About 4 hours away by train assuming trains are on time (they aren't usually)
11:36:37 <ehird> AnMaster: I didn't mean you personally
11:37:06 <ehird> AnMaster: the top-end model (with a 17" 1920x1200 screen, so you know this thing's beefy)'s battery can last up to 8 hours
11:37:09 <ehird> prolly more like 6
11:37:15 <ehird> but when's the battery life
11:37:27 <ehird> i recall hearing it lasts a long time, anyway
11:37:55 <AnMaster> that makes more sense in the context
11:38:26 <ehird> http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/macbook/macbook-unibody-faq/macbook-macbook-pro-unibody-how-to-upgrade-ram.html
11:38:29 <ehird> Have two memory slots that you access by removing the access door, battery, and bottom case. Your MacBook [or MacBook Pro] comes with at least 2 GB (1 GB in each slot) of 1066 MHz Double Date Rate (DDR3) Synchronous Dynamic Random-Access Memory (SDRAM) installed.
11:38:39 <AnMaster> ehird, the fan sure is quiet on this thing though. Compared to the fan on mom's macbook. when it spins up you can definitely hear it
11:38:44 <ehird> that's with like a 2.8ghz core 2 processor and 4gb of ram
11:38:56 <ehird> pretty sweet battery life
11:39:09 <AnMaster> ehird, how many cycles is it rated for
11:39:14 <ehird> yah, 17" stock model is 2.8ghz core 2 duo, 4gb ddr3 ram, 500gb hd
11:39:28 <ehird> AnMaster: let's see
11:39:32 <ehird> The lifespan of a battery is measured in recharges. One recharge is a complete charge and discharge of a battery’s energy. A recharge doesn’t necessarily occur every time you plug in your notebook; many partial charges can add up to a single full recharge. The typical battery delivers about 200 to 300 recharges before its capacity declines to approximately 80 percent. At that point the battery still works, but its performance is diminished. Thanks to th
11:39:36 <ehird> http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/battery/
11:39:53 <ehird> e breakthroughs of advanced chemistry and Adaptive Charging, the battery in the 13-, 15-, and 17-inch MacBook Pro can go through up to 1000 recharges before it reaches 80 percent of its original capacity — nearly three times the lifespan of typical notebook batteries.2
11:40:12 <ehird> they also made em flat and stacked and packed them
11:40:16 <ehird> instead of using circular ones
11:40:18 <ehird> which is... "no duh"
11:40:31 <oklopol> 6 hours would almost make it useful for things other than taking it in the crapper or just moving it around with the power cable temporarily off
11:40:32 <AnMaster> ehird, circular? Does any laptop have circular ones?
11:40:38 <ehird> http://images.apple.com/macbookpro/overlays/images/size20090106.jpg
11:40:43 <ehird> apart from these ones
11:41:01 <ehird> oklopol: just get one of those targa netbooks
11:41:02 <AnMaster> ehird, well they look quite square. but I guess the cells inside may be circular
11:41:07 <oklopol> i guess what i mean is 6 hours isn't a complete joke.
11:41:08 <ehird> oklopol: with the screen off they manage ~28 days of battery life iirc
11:41:13 <ehird> AnMaster: duh, that's the whole point
11:41:14 <oklopol> it's just a crappy battery :P
11:41:24 <ehird> oklopol: with it on, prolly like >24hrs
11:41:35 <oklopol> okay, that i could live with
11:41:44 <ehird> oklopol: of course the caveat is that… it's not exactly powerful
11:41:48 <ehird> iirc it's an 800mhz arm
11:41:56 <ehird> the iphone 3g s is a 600mhz arm
11:42:06 <ehird> so you get a laptop that's… faster than a smartphone!
11:42:09 <oklopol> 800mhz is about 800 times more than i need
11:42:26 <AnMaster> <ehird> the iphone 3g s is a 600mhz arm <-- insane for a phone
11:42:35 <ehird> AnMaster: that's good because it's not a phone
11:42:38 <ehird> and no, ARM runs really cool
11:42:40 <ehird> not even a heatsink
11:42:41 <oklopol> i could do with my calculator if it had a nicer keyboard and a better programming environment
11:42:51 <ehird> AnMaster: anyway, only f00lz buy the iphone because it's a phone
11:42:54 <AnMaster> ehird, why are they so cool compared to intel or such
11:42:57 <oklopol> and if it compiled its basic
11:43:06 <ehird> AnMaster: because x86 is fucking terrible, and ARM is an embedded RISC
11:43:27 <fizzie> That's not "insane for a phone" if you define insanity from what other people do; they're already using the 1 GHz Snapdragon in phones, I think. Or at least it's going to be used in phone models that are already announced, anyway.
11:43:28 <AnMaster> ehird, well... I guess the instruction set affects it a lot
11:43:29 <ehird> anyway, the phone contract is just a vehicle because sometimes phonecalls and texts are kinda nice to have and because it gets you wireless internet
11:43:34 <ehird> and to get it distributed
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11:43:44 <ehird> smartphones are for the smart part
11:43:58 <AnMaster> ehird, so why aren't there laptops with high performance arm cpus
11:44:01 <ehird> kinda nice to be able to do shit without, you know, taking off your bag, opening it
11:44:04 <ehird> getting a laptop out
11:44:07 <ehird> and putting it all back
11:44:15 <ehird> AnMaster: Windows doesn't run on ARM.
11:44:32 <ehird> Also, I'm fairly sure ARM isn't quite as awesome at the higher speeds and the like.
11:44:37 <ehird> AnMaster: …is a mobile operating system.
11:44:50 <fizzie> There are ARM-based tablet PCs, though. That's almost a laptop, but not quite.
11:45:17 * Sgeo watches Firefox take a long time to load
11:45:22 <Sgeo> Guess which OS I'm on today!
11:45:35 <ehird> Sgeo: the didn't upgrade to firefox 3.5.1 because you're a fucking dumbass OS?
11:45:50 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toshiba_TG01 ;; this phone looks like a terrible waste of a 1ghz cpu
11:45:51 <Sgeo> I did upgrade to 3.5.1
11:45:54 <fizzie> Actually I guess there were at least plans for "netbook"-form-factor ARM laptops.
11:45:58 <Sgeo> It still takes a long time
11:46:03 <ehird> Sgeo: then your computer is just really slow.
11:46:13 <ehird> fizzie: yeah they exist i'm sure
11:46:16 <ehird> also that targa thign ofc
11:46:32 <ehird> ahh, this is still my favourite thing ever:
11:46:36 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8kgvj/losethos_64bit_operating_system_v506_released_not/c09kmnw
11:46:36 <oklopol> firefox takes long to load, a page does, or a firefox installer you're dl'ing?
11:46:38 * Sgeo opens Chrome in the meantime
11:46:38 <ehird> darwin is part of linux
11:46:41 <ehird> it's konquer not konqueror
11:46:45 <ehird> those have something to do with nazism
11:46:54 <ehird> people who think evolution is true want to kill of dumb people
11:46:57 <fizzie> "In June 2009 Qualcomm showed off an ASUS Eee PC using the Snapdragon processor and running Google's Android. [5] At the same event, ASUS also showed a Snapdragon-based device, then withdrew it abruptly. Rumors attribute the withdrawal to pressure exerted by Microsoft. [6] [7]" Heh.
11:46:59 <ehird> …he is an evolutionist
11:47:02 <ehird> atheist operating systems!
11:47:11 <ehird> in fact there isn't more than a few words that aren't hilarious.
11:47:19 <ehird> oklopol: firefox takes long to load, I gathered
11:47:41 <oklopol> ehird: just making sure, because while that's what it means, that's the one i can't imagine happening.
11:47:50 <ehird> oklopol: he has a pentium iii or something
11:47:58 <ehird> hey guys, anyone want to donate an Itanium to me
11:47:59 <Sgeo> ...He's saying that Linux is an atheist OS to promote his own OS?
11:48:02 <ehird> i love crazy processors!
11:48:05 <ehird> Sgeo: no, he's just rambling
11:48:07 <ehird> because he's fucking insane.
11:48:26 <Sgeo> "LoseThos has a bible theme. It has a special kernel task called "Adam", father of all tasks"
11:48:34 <ehird> this is a guy who picks random words from a corpus and posts them to reddit along with attached "questions" to god
11:48:37 <ehird> and calls it "godspeak"
11:48:56 <ehird> there's a word for these people and it's called schizophrenia. or something else.
11:48:59 <ehird> some mental illness anyway.
11:49:04 <ehird> (↑ not the punchiest sentence ever)
11:49:06 <AnMaster> <ehird> darwin is part of linux <-- ?
11:49:14 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8kgvj/losethos_64bit_operating_system_v506_released_not/c09kmnw
11:49:21 <ehird> plz2b comprehending context
11:49:21 <oklopol> does the name mean like loseth OS, as in 1st, 2nd, 3rd... loseth
11:49:39 <oklopol> like there are so many oses it's stupid to make another one
11:49:47 <oklopol> that's how i interpreted it
11:49:49 <ehird> http://www.losethos.com/images/Header.JPG
11:49:55 <ehird> he capitalises it LoseThos
11:50:15 <ehird> I pronounce it mentally as "LosseyThos"
11:50:16 <oklopol> or something to do with lesotho, but not sure what that could be
11:50:23 <ehird> because "Lose Thos" makes no fucking sense
11:50:27 <ehird> so my brain corrects it for me
11:50:28 * AnMaster considers mixing all the nutjobs
11:50:58 <ehird> AnMaster: that's been done. i think by a guy called abdul something. abdul alhazred.
11:51:03 <ehird> the mad arab, they called him
11:51:05 <Sgeo> He may be insane, but that image is kind of cool
11:51:14 <ehird> Sgeo: …that image is cool?
11:51:17 <ehird> well gee he can type a few letters
11:51:22 <ehird> and extend the tendrils of some
11:51:26 <ehird> he's a freakin' genious
11:51:35 <Sgeo> I didn't say it was awesome
11:52:13 <ehird> i wanna buy one of the bacon-fragranced reddit alien soaps
11:52:18 <ehird> i hope they taste like bacon too!
11:52:26 <ehird> [[Yes, our soaps are Vegan.]]
11:52:32 <ehird> it's not real bacon fragrance :(
11:52:55 <Sgeo> It's a no brainer that the main thing keeping people from using LoseThos is the graphics
11:53:31 <ehird> Sgeo: listen to the demo video on the main page
11:53:44 <Sgeo> http://www.losethos.com/memory.html don't use it for anything requiring security. I guess it sounds fun, but not as a main OS
11:54:40 <AnMaster> ehird, I wonder why desktops are so much louder than laptops... It should be possible to make them about the same noise level. Sure they are generally faster. But they are not as cramped inside either, so easier to allow air to move.
11:55:07 <Sgeo> " I can delete the Bible
11:55:07 <Sgeo> and cut the install size, too"
11:55:13 <Sgeo> There's a built-in Bible?
11:55:35 <Sgeo> Or is that referring to something else? (PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DEAR GOD)
11:55:43 <oklopol> okay, losethos sounds great
11:56:56 <Sgeo> "I capitalized the libraries. They're not standard"
11:57:08 <Sgeo> It was sounding interesting until right about then
11:57:53 <oklopol> capitalized the libraries?
11:58:17 <Sgeo> oklopol, watch the video
11:59:23 <ehird> Sgeo: it has a built in bible yeah
11:59:34 <ehird> Sgeo: anyway it's not interesting
11:59:37 <ehird> he didn't want to buffer the screen
11:59:42 <ehird> so it's just 640x480x4
11:59:48 <ehird> but it only works on 64 bit!
11:59:50 <AnMaster> ehird, you are good at fonts. Name a good serif font. That is available for TeX
11:59:52 <ehird> he says he has 12GB of RAM!
12:00:00 <ehird> AnMaster: for screen or print
12:00:17 <Sgeo> ehird, I know next-to-nothing about graphics programming
12:00:24 <ehird> AnMaster: why not computer modern :-P
12:00:36 <Sgeo> So I think things like that are understandable.. although maybe asking for advice would have been helpful for him
12:00:37 <AnMaster> ehird, it is a bit awkward on screen in pdfs at least
12:00:40 <ehird> Sgeo: basically, he could have added about 30 lines and supported 1920x1200x32
12:00:52 <ehird> AnMaster: metafont is very not bitmapped
12:00:53 <AnMaster> so rendered to pre-pared bitmapped ones
12:01:11 <ehird> AnMaster: so you're using xetex then?
12:01:28 <AnMaster> ehird, that or pdftex. Depends on which is easiest
12:01:35 <ehird> pdftex… uses metafont.
12:01:45 <ehird> AnMaster: just 'sudo apt-get install texlive' and you have xetex
12:01:48 <Sgeo> 'It's pretty dumb to have characters signed, so I made them unsigned" If you're going to be changing the language like this, can you add automatic buffer overflow checking? kthx
12:01:49 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm probably going for xetex though
12:02:16 <ehird> AnMaster: do you have the requirement of it being free-as-in-richard-m-stallman?
12:02:48 <AnMaster> ehird, that would be *preferred* but I'm willing to go for a bit more closed if I have to
12:03:06 <ehird> AnMaster: if that is your actual restriction, you get to choose between bistream/deja or liberation.
12:03:07 <Sgeo> "I made another syntax change" Please, for the love of all that is C(?:\+\+)?, stop
12:03:09 <ehird> ((they both suck))
12:03:20 <ehird> for legally-free-as-in-beer, I may have something
12:03:24 <AnMaster> ehird, it seems helvetica is available for tex already
12:03:29 <AnMaster> at least lyx claims it is installe
12:03:35 <ehird> AnMaster: probably bitmap
12:03:37 <ehird> which is worthless
12:03:38 <AnMaster> but that is sans-serif of course
12:03:53 <ehird> x11 ships with bitmap helvetica
12:04:13 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure how to install a font for use with xetex though. I used pdftex before and I always used distro package manger to handle tex
12:04:28 <Sgeo> "Everything runs in kernel-mode" Ok for a system where security doesn't matter at all, I guess
12:04:53 <ehird> AnMaster: for free-as-in-beer your options are still very limited as the free font landscape essentially consists of all the stupid novelty fonts on crappy sites with a bunch of popups
12:05:02 <ehird> exljbris appears to have released a font this year designed for text!
12:05:03 <ehird> http://www.josbuivenga.demon.nl/calluna.html
12:05:06 <ehird> his fonts are truly graet
12:05:06 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> "Everything runs in kernel-mode" Ok for a system where security doesn't matter at all, I guess <-- google: Inferno OS
12:05:15 <AnMaster> if it mentions plan9 you hit the right place
12:05:23 <ehird> AnMaster: ugh, sorry
12:05:26 <ehird> Calluna comes in 8 fonts: Light, Regular, Regular+Italic, Semibold+Italic,Bold+Italic and Black.
12:05:26 <ehird> The regular is absolutely free.
12:05:26 <ehird> Download Calluna at MyFonts.com
12:05:40 <ehird> AnMaster: total is $119 :(
12:05:53 <AnMaster> ehird, what about OS X ones then
12:06:03 <AnMaster> ehird, I assume you have some and are willing to share
12:06:14 <ehird> AnMaster: i was assuming this was under the proviso of legal?
12:06:25 <ehird> might be legal for you
12:06:33 <ehird> sweden's wacky liberal copyright laws and all
12:07:27 <AnMaster> ehird, sadly that is a myth. They are rather strict. Most don't care. Same as everywhere except we got a political party against them too
12:07:45 <ehird> yeah i guess that died out with the pirate bay trial
12:08:07 <ehird> lemme check font book
12:10:52 <AnMaster> ehird, find some good serifs and sans serifs, both for printing and for screen
12:11:12 <AnMaster> ehird, I believe in your ability in this area!
12:11:44 <ehird> you realise I'm quite an amateur and have, in fact, never placed any text to an inked page :D
12:11:56 <ehird> well i mean i've printed stuff
12:11:58 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I don't know anyone that is more pro
12:11:58 <ehird> but that was Before
12:12:04 <ehird> also that's not comparable to printing a book
12:12:27 <ehird> AnMaster: the non-FOSS serif text fonts I have are: Baskerville, Big Caslon, Cochin, Didot, …I'd say Georgia but don't go there…, Hoefler Text (<3 this one), I'll omit the asian ones…, Times (I will kill you in your sleep), Times New Roman (moreso), Zapfino (lawl) and Apple Chancery (also lawl)
12:12:48 <ehird> hoefler text is very nice
12:12:54 <ehird> AnMaster: it's like verdana
12:13:11 <ehird> would look bad on paper even if it doesn't on screen anyway
12:13:22 <Sgeo> "It can not properly be edited with
12:13:22 <Sgeo> other editors, even, because there are graphics and links in source code. "
12:13:33 <ehird> Sgeo: i'm all for non-textual source code, mind
12:13:38 <ehird> AnMaster: heh "Hoefler Text is used on the Wikipedia logo."
12:13:39 <Sgeo> Hm, how did he start out making it, before the OS came into existance?
12:13:47 <AnMaster> ehird, is the diff between 10.4 and 10.<whatever the last is> fonts large?
12:13:59 <ehird> Sgeo: http://www.losethos.com/contact.html
12:14:10 <ehird> AnMaster: they're identical. but i can trivially send them to you anyway
12:14:24 <ehird> "As of the inauguration, Hoefler Text is also used on the official website of the White House."
12:14:27 <ehird> could do with an "Obama" there
12:14:38 <ehird> not in any text though
12:14:59 <AnMaster> is that what you are saying I mean
12:15:04 <ehird> i guess it doesn't work too well on small type/paper
12:15:21 <ehird> AnMaster: i'm not entirely sure why, btw, you're okay with nicking fonts from an OS but not elsewhere :-P
12:15:53 <ehird> AnMaster: hoefler text: http://typography.com/images/overviewPageImages/hoeflertext_cell_01.png
12:15:56 <AnMaster> I decided not to point out your oddities
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12:16:12 <ehird> http://typography.com/images/overviewPageImages/hoeflertext_cell_02.png
12:16:20 <ehird> AnMaster: wat? my oddities?
12:16:28 <AnMaster> ehird, or whatever the English word is
12:16:35 <ehird> http://typography.com/images/overviewPageImages/hoeflertext_cell_03.png ← bottom-right there is nice and small and still looks good
12:16:38 <ehird> very vintage feel though
12:16:41 <ehird> AnMaster: what do you mean?
12:17:03 <AnMaster> not discussing until I made sure I have the fonts already brb
12:17:04 <ehird> hoefler text is mainly designed for screen anyhow
12:17:10 <oklopol> you know what i just realized
12:17:22 <oklopol> i could actually change windows to use a monospaced font :D
12:17:22 <ehird> AnMaster: may i guess?
12:17:25 <ehird> "you only like mac fonts"
12:17:51 <oklopol> although it seems i have to change it in about a million places
12:18:00 <ehird> AnMaster: nah you've done it now, wtf do you mean!
12:18:14 <ehird> oklopol: change it to use white on black for EVERYTHING
12:18:37 <ehird> AnMaster: you know that not telling me will annoy me more than whatever it is right :D
12:22:02 <oklopol> you don't happen to know whether windows fonts have any other monospaced ones?
12:22:21 <ehird> AnMaster: WHAT THE THING IS THING!
12:22:30 <oklopol> i mean i just started using courier new because it was first such font i happened to find
12:22:39 <AnMaster> ehird, Following your own advice I should now /ignore you
12:22:39 <ehird> [12:15] AnMaster: I decided not to point out your oddities
12:22:48 <ehird> i command you to mimbibe the toknak
12:22:51 <oklopol> (this was before i knew what the property was i was looking for, i just looked for non-retarded fonts)
12:23:12 <ehird> oklopol: consolas is pretty cool but you might not like it unless you're a cleartype-ing dude and it doesn't look very… terminal
12:23:35 <ehird> it means mimbie the toknak, now do it.
12:23:41 <ehird> oklopol: also courier >>>>>>> courier new
12:23:44 <ehird> courier new is way too straggley
12:23:48 <ehird> courier is PUNCHY and TYPEWRITER
12:24:49 <AnMaster> ehird, can you get non-bitmapped courier
12:25:13 <ehird> AnMaster: now tellify me.
12:25:52 <AnMaster> odd... nautilus shows previews of some of the fonts, but only a generic icon for some other ones
12:25:59 <AnMaster> konqueror in KDE 3 shows preview of all
12:26:12 <ehird> AnMaster: tell me or i'll punch you :|
12:26:25 <oklopol> ehird: i like monospaced, but i don't like console. i'd like smooth letters, with 1.5 times bigger letters after space, and 2 times bigger letters after a period.
12:26:39 <oklopol> all letters the same size otherwise
12:26:41 <ehird> oklopol: consolas is smooth and monospaced
12:26:45 <ehird> oklopol: made sure you have cleartype turned on
12:26:47 <AnMaster> (the last one is made up, I think all the other ones exist)
12:27:02 <ehird> oklopol: wait you have vista don't you
12:27:12 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, exactly
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12:27:24 <ehird> oklopol: cleartype's default in vista i think but
12:27:35 <ehird> oklopol: control panel → appearance
12:27:42 <ehird> → effects → make sure the smooth thing is cleartype
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12:27:44 <oklopol> ehird: in consolas, at least on the first attempt, the letters don't look very uniform in thickness.
12:27:45 <AnMaster> once I found where to install fonts in gnome: yes
12:27:51 <ehird> oklopol: probably no cleartype
12:27:57 <ehird> AnMaster: you drag it to the fonts folder.
12:28:08 <Asztal> yes, without cleartype, Consolas is disgusting
12:28:12 <ehird> AnMaster: dunno, I just use fonts://
12:28:27 <AnMaster> where is the place you enter path in nautilus
12:28:32 <AnMaster> it seems to be missing an adress bar
12:28:45 <ehird> that's a feature :P
12:28:57 <ehird> oklopol: anyhow if you have cleartype on consolas should pretty much fit the bill
12:28:58 <AnMaster> ehird, it says fonts:/// is invalid
12:29:06 <ehird> AnMaster: how are you doing it anyway
12:29:18 <ehird> font installation in gnome could be better tbh
12:29:43 <ehird> oklopol: here's what consolas should look like:
12:30:09 <oklopol> ehird: okay i switched to high contrast black, damn this is hardcore :D
12:30:11 <ehird> oklopol: http://www.hanselman.com/blog/content/binary/WindowsLiveWriter/Insearchoftheperfectmonospacedprogrammer_148A9/consolas%5B4%5D.png or http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Consolas-cleartype.png or http://blog.hamstu.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/typoofcode_consolas.png
12:30:21 <ehird> the form...ost one being the best looking
12:30:31 <ehird> amusing that consolasa is very… unconsole
12:30:38 <ehird> oklopol: that has some non-black stuff iirc!
12:30:42 <ehird> make sure it's all either #000 or #FFF!
12:30:46 <ehird> usability be damned!
12:31:00 <oklopol> also i haven't switched the fonts yet
12:31:07 <ehird> oklopol: anyhow does that consolas look good?
12:31:23 <ehird> if it does and it doesn't look like that on your machine, you gotsa turn cleartype on
12:31:30 <oklopol> actually it does, very much so
12:32:04 <ehird> on your machine or?
12:32:07 <ehird> that sentence is the vague
12:32:27 <oklopol> no sorry in your link (first one).
12:32:49 <ehird> [12:27] ehird: oklopol: control panel → appearance
12:32:49 <ehird> [12:27] ehird: → effects → make sure the smooth thing is cleartype
12:32:57 <ehird> in case it looks rather less gooderific in windows
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12:34:03 <oklopol> cleartype isn't where you said it'd be
12:34:27 <oklopol> right there's a search feature...
12:34:36 <ehird> oklopol: you don't want "tune cleartype"
12:34:39 <ais523> is the topic set as it is to annoy augur?
12:34:40 <ehird> just actually turning it on
12:35:00 <ais523> he removed the last one because of all the special characters
12:35:01 <ehird> oklopol: was it on or is it just on now?
12:35:06 <ehird> ais523: no, because it was right-to-left
12:35:06 <AnMaster> ehird, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fonts#Manually
12:36:03 <oklopol> ehird: also it was exactly where you said it would be.
12:36:15 <ehird> oklopol: i eagerly look forward to this #000 and #FFF and Consolas only nightmare
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12:41:16 <oklopol> but really i'd like to redesign the whole gui
12:41:34 <oklopol> to consist of mostly antialiased lines.
12:42:07 <ehird> oklopol: did you set all the colours to either #000 or #FFF
12:42:13 <ehird> with #FFF being strictly foreground and #000 being strictly background
12:42:23 <oklopol> it would tell everyone who sees my computer i'm not just a geek, i'm a fucking nutjob
12:42:34 <ehird> tell me you did :(
12:42:53 <oklopol> it would change this thing very little
12:43:07 <ehird> oklopol: yes but you'll be 10% more awesome
12:43:11 <ehird> i have discovered this with science
12:43:11 <oklopol> i mean most colors are just because there are so many little icons around
12:43:13 <ehird> in fact i'm going to do it
12:43:15 <ehird> in my windows 7 vm
12:43:17 <ehird> oklopol: well icons are okay
12:43:21 <ehird> i mean the stuff in the appearance prefs
12:43:27 <ehird> i bet the title bar is white-background, for instance
12:43:33 <oklopol> and also massive icons, they are the default for the theme it seems
12:43:33 <ehird> oklopol: anyway i'm gonna race you with my windows vm
12:43:37 <ehird> you'd better do it if you want to WIN
12:43:49 <ehird> it's for visual disabled acuity peeps
12:43:52 <ehird> you know, like blindtarded
12:44:11 <oklopol> by weird i didn't mean it's actually weird
12:44:19 <ehird> haha i'm gonna call people with uncontrollable disabilities thing-tarded from now
12:44:22 <ehird> "you're cancertarded"
12:44:30 <oklopol> more like expressing an opinion, not that i know what that opinion was.
12:44:38 <oklopol> maybe that this should be the default for people who aren't idiots.
12:44:40 <ais523> oklopol: using a black and white theme?
12:44:42 <ehird> "oh yeah? well what about you? you used to be braintumortarded"
12:44:51 <ehird> ais523: #FFF on #000 with the only font being the monospaced Consolsa
12:45:04 <ehird> although not totally #000 background #FFF foreground, thus why i'm racing him with my vm
12:45:06 <ehird> (to make him do it)
12:45:14 <ehird> oklopol: you should buy a 1-bit display
12:45:21 <ais523> ehird: I think it's a good idea
12:45:32 <ehird> ais523: kinda bad for usability :D
12:45:35 <ehird> oklopol: like the kinda stuff they use in calculators
12:45:55 <ais523> ehird: grey on black is pretty easy on the eyes
12:45:58 <ais523> in terms of not being very bright
12:46:04 <ehird> ais523: that's not the point
12:46:10 <oklopol> and where the fuck can i find some kinda folder options to change the folder icons..?
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12:46:12 <ehird> #FFF on #000 for _everything_ removes visual hints
12:46:19 <ehird> which makes it slower to use
12:46:23 <ehird> and monospaced fonts are slower to read than proportional
12:46:26 <ehird> but oklopol isn't human
12:46:28 <ais523> ehird: more peaceful, though
12:46:35 <ais523> I mean, OK it obviously isn't the fastest theme to use
12:46:45 <ais523> but it would be nicer, in a way
12:46:46 <ehird> ais523: it is possible to have a theme with visual hints without having it use primary colours
12:46:50 <ehird> see for example plan 9
12:46:52 <ais523> for instance, I'm much faster with a keyboard than with a mouse
12:47:07 <ais523> but sometimes I like to use a computer just with a mouse, so I don't have to get in reach of the keyboard
12:47:11 <ehird> your brain says you're faster, subjectively
12:47:12 <ehird> the stopwatch doesn't
12:47:14 <oklopol> if you want a fast interface, use a console :|
12:47:22 <oklopol> i only care about pretty look.
12:47:23 <ehird> and no, i won't link to the studies yet again, i'm busy retheming windows
12:47:25 <ais523> ehird: having to find and attach a mouse is generally slower than just typing
12:47:43 <ais523> I'm pretty sure those studies assume a usable mouse
12:47:45 <ehird> "mice are bad because I have to find one and attach one"
12:47:55 <ehird> "mice that i have to find and attach are bad because i have to find one and attach one"
12:47:58 <ais523> what I mean is "for /me/, a keyboard is faster than a mouse"
12:48:04 <ehird> ais523: for YOU, on THAT COMPUTER
12:48:10 <ehird> it's a very important distinction
12:48:11 <ais523> this is the point I'm getting at
12:48:28 <ehird> it essentially amounts to "why doesn't your thing work well on my broken computer"
12:48:30 <ais523> it's the same problem you make with AnMaster, you keep giving him advice that's correct in general but incorrect with respect to him
12:48:36 <ehird> would you replace your computer if half the keys didn't work?
12:48:44 <ais523> ehird: 2 of the keys don't
12:48:51 <ehird> ok, you're just crazy then\
12:48:56 <ais523> but they're stop and skip to next track
12:49:02 <ais523> neither of which is particularly vital
12:49:05 <AnMaster> in general a keyboard is faster than a mouse. For most stuff.
12:49:19 <ehird> AnMaster: please don't make me stab you
12:49:26 <ais523> I reprogrammed the skip to previous track button to skip to the next track, in order to have the feature available
12:49:38 <ehird> THE HUMAN MIND THINKS THE KEYBOARD IS SUBJECTIVELY FASTER! IT IS AN _ILLUSION_! for pointing purposes, the mouse is _faster_
12:49:43 <ehird> and a _lot_ of things are faster as pointing tasks
12:49:51 <ais523> ehird: ooh, another point; I'm pretty sure a mouse can only be faster than a keyboard if you're looking at the screen
12:50:01 <AnMaster> ehird, "most stuff". I didn't say using gimp would be faster without a mouse
12:50:10 <ehird> ais523: haha, you're funny, can't touch type?
12:50:17 <ais523> ehird: I can touch type
12:50:19 <ehird> AnMaster: that's greatly underestimating how much is better with a mouse
12:50:19 <ais523> but I can't touch click
12:50:25 <ehird> for example, the acme editor is almost entirely mouse based
12:50:47 <ehird> ais523: touch typing is used for typing while looking at the screen, mostly
12:50:49 <oklopol> ehird: like what? not saying you're not correct, just interested in what you had in mind.
12:50:52 <ehird> anyway, nobody makes decisions when loking away
12:50:58 <ehird> you don't close buffer or save file while looking at someone
12:51:00 <ehird> because your attention is reduced
12:51:02 <oklopol> what's faster with pointing
12:51:06 <AnMaster> ehird, what about typing in a name from a paper?
12:51:07 <ais523> incidentally, this is why KDE and the Mac have actions when putting the mouse at corners/edges
12:51:13 <ais523> precisely because you can move the mouse there without looking
12:51:15 <ehird> oklopol: most things but typing
12:51:21 <ehird> AnMaster: gee, typing is faster with a keyboard?
12:51:31 <ehird> ais523: yes, this is accounted for in most of the theories
12:51:35 <ais523> ehird: what about playing NetHack?
12:51:35 <AnMaster> ehird, .. I meant: isn't that touch typing
12:51:38 <ehird> when you have something that hits the boundary,
12:51:42 <ehird> it's infinitely high/wide
12:51:46 <ais523> I'm trying to figure out where the boundary is atm
12:51:47 <ehird> thus it's infinitely easy to point at
12:51:56 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc *you* told me that it wasn't touch typing if you looked at the screen a few weeks ago...
12:51:58 <ehird> ais523: nethack is a pretty bad ui in general, but for its UI keyboard is prolly better
12:52:05 <ehird> but it's mainly fun because of the bad ui
12:52:12 <ehird> AnMaster: if you have to look at the screen
12:52:13 <ais523> incidentally, all known mouse-based UIs for NetHack are insanely awful, but I think that's an accident of history rather than anything universal
12:52:14 <oklopol> ehird: i mostly just point at folders or files to open them, that's a lot faster with a console
12:52:18 <ehird> but you just type while your concentration is distracted
12:52:25 <ehird> you wouldn't remove a directory while looking at something else
12:52:28 <ehird> because you're thinking less about it
12:52:37 <ehird> anyway I'm not interested in this argument
12:52:39 <AnMaster> ehird, well.. lets say I'm typing something in from a paper. Thus looking at the paper instead
12:52:55 <oklopol> also for web surfing, but that's a fundamentally broken system anyway :P
12:52:57 <ehird> i've had it many times, no matter how much i argue or point people at studies they never change their mind, so, rather pointless
12:53:01 <ehird> AnMaster: i don't think you understand me
12:53:03 <ehird> THAT IS TYPING WORDS
12:53:07 <ehird> not taking actions
12:53:24 <ehird> we're not talking about this any more
12:53:57 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm talking about: "<ehird> ais523: touch typing is used for typing while looking at the screen, mostly" <-- you claimed that not needing to look at screen OR keyboard was touch typing a few weeks ago
12:54:02 <oklopol> could you just tell me a specific task that's faster with a pointer that's not web surfing?
12:54:03 -!- Asztal has joined.
12:54:15 <oklopol> just interested to know what "most" means
12:54:16 <ehird> remember when I said we're done?
12:54:17 <ais523> I suppose some people spend a lot more time typing words /than/ taking actions
12:54:19 <oklopol> AnMaster: that's not about pointing
12:54:24 <ehird> that means _i am not talking about it any more_
12:54:26 <AnMaster> ehird, remember what I said about your oddities
12:54:29 <ehird> let's talk about intercal
12:54:32 <ais523> hmm... much the same way that some vi users spend all their time in insert mode
12:54:46 <ehird> AnMaster: being tired of talking about bullshit that we've talked about so many times, rehashing the same thing and never getting anywhere?
12:54:47 <AnMaster> oklopol, you point in the image to where you want to edit it?
12:54:53 <ehird> well i must be fucking insane not to want to do that!
12:55:13 <AnMaster> ehird, nah. Not exactly that one
12:55:25 <oklopol> AnMaster: it's not pointing in the sense that clicking on folders is about pointing; clearly anything where you need to draw any kind of lines or regions is better with something that can do that
12:55:29 <ehird> you know I don't care right?
12:55:40 <Asztal> SliceHost sure do delete accounts quickly :(
12:55:49 <AnMaster> "being irritated when you are "loosing" a discussion and refusing to continue discussion, claiming you don't care"
12:56:01 <oklopol> but pointing, telling the computer which object you want to look at, is faster with a keyboard, when it comes to browsing folders
12:56:05 <Asztal> I was hoping the DNS servers might serve things for a little more than 3 seconds after I closed the account, oh well
12:56:13 <oklopol> just interested in where it's not
12:56:17 <ehird> oklopol: wow if you set 3d objects to black
12:56:21 <AnMaster> oklopol: fill(23,54,95,23); :P
12:56:27 <ehird> oklopol: the minimize/maximize/close buttons' text becomes black
12:56:32 <ehird> so you have to know where they are
12:56:39 <oklopol> AnMaster: yeah that doesn't work at all
12:57:02 <AnMaster> oklopol, well... it works. Just extremely irritating interface
12:57:02 <ehird> [12:55] AnMaster: "being irritated when you are "loosing" a discussion and refusing to continue discussion, claiming you don't care"
12:57:02 <ehird> [12:55] AnMaster: that one
12:57:03 <ehird> then may i point out your oddity, namely not listening to my past fucking 10 or so lines while trying to insult me?
12:57:07 <oklopol> kinda like browsing folders by memorizing where you need to click and saying "i wanna open folder that's rendered at location (x,y)"
12:57:13 <ehird> and now i am-not-discussing-it-more
12:57:47 <AnMaster> ehird, this is supporting my theory :) thanks
12:58:03 <ehird> what a stupid, stupid person.
12:59:06 <oklopol> ehird: i'm not saying you are ever wrong, but you definitely suck at having arguments, kinda like arguing with god, he's just right, shut up already.
12:59:12 <Sgeo> Is it a bad idea to reply to people 2 years after they comment?
12:59:19 <ehird> oklopol: i don't rague with idiots, as a general rule
13:00:42 <oklopol> ehird: i don't think you only do that with idiots.
13:00:51 <ehird> most people are idiots though.
13:01:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:01:26 <oklopol> maybe only when people know less than you about the matter, and aren't being perfectly rational, but idiocy is not required.
13:01:41 <ehird> that's how i define idiocy tho :P
13:01:57 -!- oerjan has joined.
13:01:57 <oklopol> you do realize you do it yourself, a lot, too?
13:02:04 <ehird> that's cuz i'm an idiot
13:02:22 <oklopol> well right, i guess this is settled :P
13:02:32 <oklopol> still wondering what tasks you meant in particular though :P
13:02:38 <oklopol> but i guess i can keep wondering
13:02:42 <ehird> like, doing your mom
13:03:24 <oklopol> that requires both poking with the mouse and pressing buttons
13:04:16 <ehird> by changing my windows theme
13:04:21 <ehird> all webpages now have a black background
13:04:27 <oerjan> <oklopol> you do realize you do it yourself, a lot, too? <-- damn synchronicity
13:04:49 <ehird> oklopol: dude, _all_ _web_ _pages_
13:04:53 <ehird> even those that specify their own background
13:05:00 <ehird> they're all white on black
13:05:03 <ehird> how can you resist man
13:05:05 <oklopol> i'll be looking forward to that
13:05:11 <oerjan> i was _just_ grumbling over what a stubborn prick my dad is, because of an email he sent :/
13:05:24 <oerjan> *brick, i swear i meant to write
13:05:44 <ehird> oklopol: link to what
13:06:10 <oklopol> tbh i wasn't actually expecting you'd link it.
13:06:32 <oerjan> i don't want to be _that_ big a prick
13:06:37 <oklopol> oerjan: was your point that you're a stubborn cock too?
13:07:12 <oklopol> that's not your most salient feature on irc, if it's any consolation
13:07:44 <oerjan> thank you :) *er, what*
13:08:06 <oerjan> i would imagine that would be inane puns
13:08:11 <ehird> oklopol: as soon as i fix this pesky "a bunch of the text is black on black" problem i shall release this theme
13:08:13 <ehird> for sexual purposes ofc
13:08:49 <ehird> oklopol: also there's no actual hover colour so you have to be sure you're pressing the right thing within yourself
13:08:54 <ehird> i think that's pretty cool
13:08:59 <ehird> similarly, no distinction between active and inactive window
13:09:09 <oklopol> oerjan: well sure, but to someone who's actually been listening to you for a long time, not so much.
13:10:02 <oklopol> ehird: okay all that sounds good
13:11:09 * oerjan starts getting worried now
13:12:33 <ehird> oklopol: i'm even gonna use a white on black firefox theme
13:12:36 <ehird> and force all fonts to be consolas
13:17:24 <ehird> oklopol: * { background-color: #000 !important; color: #FFF !important; }
13:17:39 <ehird> also i have just found out that highlighted text isn't… highlighted
13:22:42 <ehird> as soon as i fix this pesky text problem it shall be done
13:27:40 <ehird> oklopol: haha progress bars never fill in
13:31:27 <ehird> oklopol: you don't really need to read button text do you?
13:32:25 <ehird> now just to get a ff theme
13:38:12 <ehird> it's very silly how black and monospaced this thing is
13:38:23 <ehird> there's like 1,000 non-white, non-black pixels on the screen
13:53:23 <ehird> oklopol: and now, for your viewing pleasure:
13:55:17 <ehird> oklopol: and now, for your viewing pleasure, I present my work "windows in black, white and consolas":
13:55:19 <ehird> http://imgur.com/JDuSP.png
13:57:14 <ehird> (oklopol then spent ten minutes attempting to click on the buttons and links of the screenshot.)
13:58:46 <oklopol> ehird: well i tried scrolling :P
13:58:56 <oklopol> so fuck you for saying that.
13:59:04 <ehird> but hey it is awesome right
14:00:05 <Asztal> I've seen people who use windows almost like that (without consolas, that is)
14:00:21 <ehird> oklopol specifically specified (← lawl) monospaced!
14:00:29 <AnMaster> I installed kmines from kde4 to test it
14:00:37 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah you can hardly configure the mines to hook in with the terminal emulator
14:00:39 <AnMaster> I can't even set up the click mapping
14:00:43 <ehird> and it doesn't have a built in text editor any more
14:00:49 <ehird> stupid kde4 mines.
14:01:11 <AnMaster> ehird, I want middle = free one, left = free around if possible (which is usually middle), left = mark mine
14:01:22 <AnMaster> but I can't configure that in either kde4 kmines or the gnome mines app
14:01:33 <AnMaster> ehird, it is much faster to click that way
14:01:45 <ehird> "left = free around if possible (which is usually middle), left = mark mine"
14:01:49 <ehird> guess you want it to be telepathic too huh
14:02:16 <ehird> oklopol: anyway did i do that all for nothing or do you want me to give it
14:04:01 <oklopol> ehird: well umm sure gimme :P
14:04:22 <oklopol> Asztal: i can't stand non-monospaced fonts
14:04:27 <ehird> oklopol: but you'll be all "oh i have to work to configure it laaaaaaame" :P
14:04:59 <oklopol> i assume i'd just have to put it in like a themes folder and choose it from the list
14:05:16 <ehird> it requires a bit of clicky click.
14:05:25 <ehird> there appears to be a theme file thing
14:05:30 <ehird> you'd still have to clicky click but lesso
14:05:47 <Asztal> oklopol: Then you probably hate/pity me for having coded in Comic Sans MS :)
14:05:54 <ehird> Asztal: ABDUHWHDJFKLjdkgwhat
14:09:04 <oklopol> Asztal: i might do that with something like wingdings as a brain adaption exercise, but with comic sans, i'm pretty indifferent to it. and i don't really see the difference bitween comic sans and all the other ugly non-monospaced fonts, easy to read, but broken by not being monospaced.
14:09:30 <ehird> oklopol: okay, i figureds it out
14:09:34 <ehird> lemme compile an instruction list thing
14:14:27 <ehird> oklopol: here goeses:
14:15:11 <ehird> oklopol: http://pastie.org/561607.txt?key=naofzirdnebs4kp3qv2rwa, the theme file you need is http://filebin.ca/dvvzzj/windowsinblackwhiteandconsolas.themepack
14:15:22 <ehird> oklopol: oh, I missed one more step
14:15:27 <ehird> oklopol: in the control panel, find the cursors
14:15:33 <ehird> change it to Windows Black.
14:15:58 <ehird> It will be totally super-plus kickass.
14:16:35 <ehird> …for a definition of kickass equal to "white, black and consolas".
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14:18:50 <AnMaster> ehird, you should read the annotation on IWC today. Is it really that bad in UK?
14:19:32 <ehird> public photography is de-facto illegal in the uk.
14:20:17 <ehird> AnMaster: oh, also:
14:20:21 <ehird> "We’d all like to help the police to do their job well. They, in turn, would like to have a massive database with DNA profiles from everyone who has been arrested, but not convicted of a crime."
14:20:23 <ehird> http://www.badscience.net/2009/07/is-this-a-joke/
14:20:25 <ehird> source: the Guardian
14:25:45 <oklopol> ehird: this is for firefox? i'm not currently using it...
14:25:54 <ehird> oklopol: well the windows theme isn't for ff
14:26:00 <ehird> but the font/colour stuff is
14:26:02 <ehird> oklopol: what are you using instead
14:26:04 <oklopol> i switched to ie because i can't change the language in ff
14:26:16 <ehird> i'll do it for IE then
14:27:58 <ehird> oklopol: anyway do the windows theme + cursor while i do it for IE?
14:28:06 <ehird> those aren't ff-related
14:30:49 <ehird> oklopol: Tools -> Internet Options -> Fonts. Consolas on both sides. Accessibility. Ignore colours, font sizes. Format documents using my style sheet - make a file in notepad with the text [[ * { font-family: Consolas !important; font-size: 13px !important; } ]], save it as "(whatever).css" and select it.
14:31:36 <ehird> oklopol: that doesn't actually fix the font size
14:31:48 <ehird> oklopol: don't tick the "ignore font sizes"
14:32:06 <ehird> oklopol: the file should actually be: [[
14:32:12 <ehird> * { font-family: Consolas !important; font-size: 13px !important; }
14:32:19 <ehird> a:link { text-decoration: underline !important; }
14:32:47 <ehird> wait, doesn't work
14:32:50 <ehird> oklopol: remove the ":link" part
14:34:01 <ehird> oklopol: okay, the file should be
14:34:15 <ehird> but replace a:link with
14:34:19 <ehird> a:link, a:hover, a:active, a:visited
14:35:06 <ehird> what the fuck it didn't work.
14:35:45 <ehird> oklopol: colors, untick use window colours, text = white, background = black, visited and unvisisted = white
14:35:54 <ehird> oklopol: now tell me you'll do it, otherwise i just wasted like half an hour
14:36:24 <ehird> wow since about 13:00
14:36:29 <ehird> an hour and a half
14:36:47 <ehird> in fact oklopol if you do the colors menu thing
14:36:51 <ehird> you can omit the a line from the css
14:37:09 <ehird> oklopol: shall i compile a new guide
14:37:16 <oklopol> err yeah that might be better
14:39:18 <oklopol> heh, there was this iq test, "what's the capital of X? 1) X; 2) Y; 3) Z; 4) all of the above" and i'm like lol worst iq test ever
14:39:25 <oklopol> and 4) is the correct answer
14:40:37 <oklopol> well you know how iq tests usually suck when they're pop ups
14:40:48 <ehird> oklopol: oh. none will have been "correct"
14:40:52 <oklopol> i just assumed all of the above was like a standard fourth question
14:40:52 <ehird> they'll all have linked to the same page
14:41:01 <ehird> oklopol: http://pastie.org/561636.txt?key=jhd5a2mamzfmg2gcvysrcw
14:41:09 <ehird> compleat guide to "windows in black, white and consolas"
14:41:10 <oklopol> there are many kinds of things those do
14:41:32 <oklopol> some actually give you a result, not sure any actually is an iq test of any kind
14:42:14 <oklopol> ehird: 4 was the correct answer based on wikipedia that is
14:42:33 <oklopol> technically three capitals
14:42:51 <ehird> oklopol: oh so it wasn't actually X with answers X Y and Z?
14:42:55 <ehird> i was very confused there
14:42:58 <oklopol> remembered i'd heard of something like that, so i checked, now i kinda feel like i should find the page and apologize for laughing at it
14:43:09 <oklopol> i don't know how to mark variables
14:43:10 <ehird> it's okay, i'm retarded :D
14:43:32 <oklopol> as retarded as a snow in a flow
14:43:56 <ehird> anyway do that damn guide i spent ages on the whole thing :P
14:47:58 <oklopol> okay all done except for the css, i don't know where to make it use that
14:48:55 <ehird> oklopol: in the same place as the last click
14:49:04 <ehird> you'll have to restart IE afterwards
14:49:06 <ehird> or it doesn't stick
14:49:11 <oklopol> yeah i found it shut up :D
14:49:50 <oklopol> doesn't stick? you mean i have to restart it right away, because if i do later, it will have changed back?
14:51:18 <ehird> oklopol: no, it just won't apply yet
14:51:21 <ehird> and it'll be in a half-state
14:51:24 <ehird> with the other stuff but not the CSS
14:51:27 <ehird> which will be a bit bleh
14:51:48 <oklopol> well i'll restart after this ep
14:52:09 <oklopol> although i'll probably leave the computer then
14:53:54 <ehird> oklopol: you won't
14:54:30 <oklopol> i can't just waste the whole day and read during the night like usually, because i'm trying to keep this new human sleep cycle
14:55:27 <ehird> you should be going the other way
14:56:26 <oklopol> should've done that in the beginning of the summer
14:57:07 <oklopol> but having the day the other way around is just a nuisance
14:57:31 <oklopol> i mean i like the fact i don't see much of the sun, but you know shops and shit.
14:57:38 <oklopol> also i have stuff to do later this week
14:58:29 <ehird> oklopol: yeah but you can do it ≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥magic
14:59:13 <ehird> ←the doing in the summer →of the other way around← because uberman →→both ways←← bisexual ≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥≥day time→
14:59:56 <oklopol> now i have this chili pepper stuff
15:00:05 <oklopol> one of those bastards is like 1cm in length
15:00:12 <oklopol> and i've been eating it for two days
15:00:28 <oklopol> i've gotten about 2 millimeters down, and i've been having diarrhea like every 3 hours
15:00:59 <ehird> oklopol: okay the explain
15:01:56 <ehird> ←←the thing→ note the notational parentheses, like inverses, the further in the less parenthical ←←in summer→ hard but if you're magic→ (be magic) →then← →uberman day →both ways← not just no sun →no sun and sun←← →you can no sun →and shops←← ←at same →time←!→→
15:02:45 <oklopol> okay that makes much more sense
15:03:05 <ehird> →since it goes← both ways
15:03:11 <ehird> ←it is→ day bisexual!
15:05:11 <GregorR> Hey doods I'm on qwantz.com
15:05:34 <ehird> GregorR: wow really
15:05:43 <ehird> put some adsense on that bitch
15:06:02 <ehird> GregorR: also link to your lonely trex thing on one of the pages
15:06:49 <GregorR> Maybe when there are a few more in the backlog so I know Brian won't just go "well I've decided not to care lawl"
15:06:50 <ehird> 'cuz, y'know, it's not
15:07:21 <GregorR> He's the one actually making them, I just made the site.
15:07:42 <GregorR> Hence "Posted ... by Brian" on the only one that's there so far :P
15:07:51 <ehird> http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=1,4&comics=684,1259
15:08:07 <GregorR> "second and fifth crazy times" :P
15:08:18 <ehird> It's right up your alley.
15:08:33 <GregorR> lol @ trapdoor functions X-D
15:08:49 <ehird> GregorR: your munger still doesn't have the rearrange features btw
15:08:54 <ehird> even though the .php does
15:12:46 <ehird> a dinosaur comic with actual drawing
15:12:47 <ehird> http://www.qwantz.com/comics/comic2-440.png
15:13:45 <GregorR> He does thought bubbles occasionally :P
15:15:53 <ehird> GregorR: yeah but this isn't just around text!
15:15:58 <ehird> it's around other parts of the panel too!
15:16:10 <GregorR> He does full-panel thought bubbles occasionally.
15:16:15 <GregorR> There are at least four or five
15:16:31 <oklopol> are there any moustaches though
15:19:08 <GregorR> In the reversed ones there are goatees
15:19:31 <ehird> GregorR: Thus "a", not "the" :P
15:23:00 * Sgeo pokes ehird nomicwise
15:23:21 <ehird> Nomic and government: The two directions of the seventh dimension.
15:23:37 <ehird> *Government and nomic; a more aesthetically pleasing order.
15:25:29 <ehird> Perhaps, in fact, überlame.
15:25:37 <oklopol> ehird: any reason why it's more aesthetically pleasing?
15:25:48 <ehird> oklopol: nomic feels more like forwards/inwards
15:25:54 <ehird> government feels more like backwards/outwards
15:26:00 <Sgeo> ehird, the idea itself, or my promotion of it in Agora?
15:26:03 <ehird> i mean, i'm imagining Sgeo behind me, poking me nomicwise
15:26:12 <ehird> Sgeo: the execution? :P
15:26:34 <oklopol> ehird: so just felt like it basically :P
15:26:35 <Sgeo> Any suggestions?
15:27:27 <Sgeo> No constructive criticism?
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18:53:57 <ehird> setting up debian on an old powermac!
18:54:04 <ehird> with a 14.5" crt screen!
18:54:40 <ehird> and a ONE BUTAN mouse!
18:57:14 <ehird> GregorR-L: ah, but I mean old
18:57:28 <ehird> not a lame g3/g4 power mac, oh no
18:57:33 <GregorR-L> I've installed Debian on an m68k, bitch.
18:57:44 <GregorR-L> AND an old world, AND a new world mac.
18:57:45 <ehird> i've installed debian on your mom's face
18:57:55 <ehird> anyway this thing can't boot from floppies
18:57:55 <GregorR-L> Sweet, I thought only NetBSD had been ported there.
18:58:00 <ehird> and lenny doesn't have powerpc floppies
18:58:07 <ehird> so i'm downloading etch powerpc floppies
18:58:13 <ehird> and then upgrading to lenny
18:58:23 <ehird> i wonder if it'll support the ADB kb/mouse
18:58:30 <ehird> anyway, currently it doesn't want to write this 1.2MB floppy image
18:58:38 <ehird> guess it needs that little .2mb extra oomph
19:01:38 <ehird> GregorR-L: this machine is fun though
19:01:44 <ehird> it has 96MB of RAM in like 10 sticks
19:01:53 <ehird> and two 1.19GB HDs
19:02:04 <ehird> also, it seems to have a g3 processor
19:02:06 <ehird> which it wasn't sold with
19:02:10 <ehird> so someone's done some upgrading
19:02:17 <ehird> it also has a rather loud fan
19:03:18 <fizzie> I've installed Debian on that Performa what-was-the-number-again. It wasn't m68k, but it was still tricky; had to boot with that Mach-based MkLinux booter, nothing else worked.
19:05:35 <fizzie> Performa 5260, I guess.
19:05:46 <ehird> anyhow, anyone know how to write a non-1.44mb floppy in os 9?
19:06:05 <GregorR-L> fizzie: I had to replace the CPU on my LC :P
19:06:25 <pikhq> ehird: Install A/UX. Use dd.
19:06:35 <fizzie> The Performa had a 603e PPC, at least.
19:07:05 <fizzie> "The Apple Macintosh Performa 5260/120 features a 120 MHz PowerPC 603e processor, 8 MB or 16 MB of RAM, and a 1.2 GB hard drive in an attractive all-in-one case with a 14" color monitor." Well, I guess "attractive" is in the eye of the beholder.
19:07:14 <ehird> incidentally, the iphone makes a nice camera
19:07:17 <ehird> just email the photos to yourself
19:07:33 <ehird> fizzie: my setup is far more ghetto
19:07:38 <ehird> i have a TV/computer/whatever trolley thing
19:07:41 <ehird> and the mac was on sideways
19:07:45 <ehird> due to not fitting the other way around
19:07:50 <ehird> i tilted the monitor
19:07:54 <ehird> tilted the trolley
19:07:58 <ehird> so it's thin and long
19:08:02 <ehird> put the keyboard on a binder next to the monitor
19:08:08 <ehird> tilted up the monitor so it had an ok angle
19:08:15 <ehird> then got a low table
19:08:19 <ehird> stacked a bunch of books on it
19:08:21 <ehird> and finally the mouse
19:08:24 <ehird> and put them next to each other
19:11:02 <ehird> pics: http://imgur.com/ZuRX0.jpg, http://imgur.com/6LFmv.jpg and http://imgur.com/kpU2b.jpg
19:12:57 <ehird> anyone know of floppy image writing software for mac os 9
19:23:06 * ehird attempts to redownload the image
19:23:30 <ehird> guys do you think Gnome will run on a 300mhz PowerPC G3 with 96MB of RAM :-D
19:23:42 <ehird> FireFly: I was just emphasising "kinda" :P
19:24:13 <pikhq> ehird: Yes, but it's dubious that it's worth it.
19:24:18 <ehird> pikhq: yeah I was joking
19:24:23 <ehird> i'll go with lwm or something
19:24:41 <ehird> well it could do with a task bar
19:25:05 <ehird> pikhq: so if I can't get this 1.2mb etch floppy to work
19:25:12 <ehird> (there's a 1.6mb one too, hope I won't need that)
19:25:15 <ehird> pikhq: what's the one before etch?
19:25:28 <ehird> can I go that → etch → lenny → testing without wanting to kill myself? :D
19:26:32 <pikhq> Etch was a nasty jump.
19:26:52 <ehird> pikhq: but won't I just be able to replace the apt list and do dist-upgrade a few times?
19:27:08 <pikhq> The time between Sarge and Etch was about 6 years.
19:27:16 <ehird> pikhq: …so it won't work very well, then?
19:27:26 <pikhq> The major version of everything was incremented.
19:27:36 <ehird> what, every single package?
19:27:43 <pikhq> Well, except Linux. That just did 2.4 (with 2.2 still supported) to 2.6.
19:27:50 <ehird> i doubt every single package :P
19:27:55 <ehird> pikhq: so that's not a good route, then?
19:28:05 <ehird> i have my old pc, maybe that could write the floppy doppy woppy
19:28:35 <ehird> pikhq: otoh, how in the world of fuck am I meant to write a 1.6mb floppy?
19:28:50 <pikhq> dd if=floppy of=/dev/fd0
19:29:01 <pikhq> Linux has crazy floppy support.
19:29:03 <ehird> The MEDIA is 1.44mb.
19:29:08 <ehird> pikhq: No, no, you don't understand.
19:29:11 <ehird> It's not meant to be 1.6mb.
19:29:20 <ehird> It was reported as a bug yonks ago, but it must be back.
19:29:23 <pikhq> Actually, the media can support up to 1.8 MB.
19:29:25 <ehird> The i386 one is 1.44MB.
19:29:31 <ehird> pikhq: Grrr shut up >_<
19:29:49 <pikhq> Linux has *freaking crazy* floppy support. ;)
19:30:06 <pikhq> Oh, wait. *Sarge* wasn't a bad jump.
19:30:16 <pikhq> It was Woody that went ages without an update.
19:30:54 <pikhq> Sarge had updated versions of 73% of the distribution and doubled in the number of supported packages...
19:31:01 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Actually, the media can upport up to 2.8
19:32:02 <pikhq> ehird: Oh, and Woody originally shipped with Linux *2.2*.
19:32:26 <ehird> pikhq: Okay, so sarge → etch → lenny → testing might only take a few hours?
19:33:02 <ehird> I'll do that, then. I… guess.
19:33:09 <ehird> Now where are dem sarge ppc floppies?
19:33:16 <ehird> Not in /debian/dists/, unless it's oldstable.
19:33:27 <pikhq> It's no longer supported.
19:33:57 <ehird> i have to get it from pirate warez debian sites? :D
19:35:52 <ehird> pikhq: will any drive support 1.6mb disks, out of curiosity?
19:35:57 <ehird> forall drives, support
19:37:06 <pikhq> All drives support it. Just not all OSes.
19:37:21 <pikhq> (Linux does some really funky things with the floppy controller)
19:37:46 <ehird> pikhq: which is best?
19:37:53 <ehird> 1. write floppies on old pc, hope they work
19:37:56 <ehird> 2. try sarge instead
19:38:09 <pikhq> Unix of some sort.
19:38:24 <ehird> old pc = runs linu
19:38:47 <ehird> but tons of upgrades sounds fun :D
19:41:07 <ehird> do it on the other machine tthen
19:44:10 <ehird> pikhq: i've found the sarge images and there's a 1.3 one!
19:45:15 <ehird> may i, incidentally, sing high praises for this powermac?
19:45:18 <ehird> it's quite nice, albeit slow
19:46:26 <ehird> I wonder what ofonlyboot.img is.
19:49:00 <ehird> I can't find a manual for the floppy disk files; I've tried.
19:49:04 <ehird> pikhq: what was that command again?
19:50:01 <ehird> Oh, just "dd if=foo.img of=/dev/fd0"
19:50:05 <ehird> says you in the past :P
19:51:14 <ehird> gmail logged me out
19:51:18 <ehird> on the powermac :P
19:51:33 <ehird> yay it remembered the text
19:53:20 <ehird> bah, it just doesn't work on it
19:53:33 <ehird> now how am i going to get my email, composed on the powermac, to the imac?
19:53:44 <ehird> using a floppy would be a pain :P
20:00:40 <ehird> Righty ho, should have those floppies ready in no time.
20:00:47 <ehird> Then, it's just a matter of etch → lenny → testing.
20:01:16 <ehird> You know, if the processor was worth shit, I'd make it part of a cluster. :P
20:01:32 <ehird> But I think it's interesting.
20:01:47 <ehird> I bet this hardware can be quite snappy.
20:01:50 <ehird> OS 9 just isn't the fastest thing.
20:01:58 <ehird> For instance, boxes appear before the text inside them.
20:03:46 <ehird> Thankfully, there's an empty 1.19GB drive in there, monicker "STORAGE".
20:04:08 <ehird> After this, it'll probably be "OS 9.1" and "Debian".
20:10:20 <Deewiant> http://www38.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=prime+factors+of+0 - zero is prime these days
20:11:59 <ehird> pikhq: "/dev/fd0: read-only filesystem"
20:12:37 <Deewiant> ehird: Flip the switch on the disk?
20:13:26 <Deewiant> Then mount it as read/write? :-P
20:13:57 <ehird> It's a device file.
20:15:19 <ehird> "$ dd if=filename of=/dev/fd0 bs=1024 conv=sync ; sync"
20:15:25 <ehird> from debian.org/…/powerpc/…, heh
20:15:35 <ehird> http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/linux/RHL-6.2-Manual/multi-arch/ch-makediskette.html
20:15:39 <ehird> Deewiant: what, both?
20:15:41 <ehird> of different makes?
20:15:56 <Deewiant> If two different disks said that... maybe :-P
20:16:15 <pikhq> ehird: The disk has the write-protect tab on.
20:16:23 <ehird> Deewiant: I'd expect "IO error" or something from that, not "read-only filesystem".
20:16:28 <ehird> pikhq: No, it doesn't.
20:16:37 <ehird> The tab is covering the whole, which is apparently "Write", not "Protect".
20:16:38 <pikhq> I'm not entirely sure.
20:16:40 <ehird> Unless it's lying to me.
20:17:04 <Deewiant> Googling suggests that nobody knows what that error is about
20:17:38 <ehird> Please don't say "bad drive"; I'll cry.
20:17:57 <ehird> Well… it didn't mount anything when the disk was put in.
20:18:01 <ehird> So it's quite possible…
20:18:07 <ehird> fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
20:18:19 <Deewiant> Do OSs generally automount floppies
20:18:33 <ehird> Maybe not, Ubuntu might though :P
20:18:43 <ehird> *Perhaps, not maybe
20:18:47 <ehird> pikhq: Old macs, yeah.
20:18:58 <ehird> Azstal: I've read the Old New Thing article on it.
20:19:01 <pikhq> It's difficult to do on normal machines, because they don't have disk insertion detection.
20:19:05 <Deewiant> Unless you have a freaky drive
20:19:17 <ehird> "Users couldn't possibly deal with a floppy drive klunk while it's installing."
20:19:23 <ehird> "Therefore, we will cripple our OS."
20:24:19 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm having fun with aircrack-ng
20:24:30 <AnMaster> seeing how many open networks there are around here
20:24:42 <ehird> Bruce Schneier runs an open network.
20:24:49 <ehird> Are you doubting his prowess?
20:25:07 <ehird> (it provides _more_ privacy; plausible denial for illegal activity)
20:25:11 <AnMaster> mine is the only with WPA2. There is one with WPA and the SSID for it is set to the name of an ISP
20:26:30 <ehird> bleh, I wonder what i should do
20:26:36 <ehird> I don't have another floppy drivin' computer
20:26:54 <AnMaster> ehird, btw had to patch kernel to make my wlan card support aircrack-ng... Oh and this should fix some of the kernel oopses at shutdown too since it brought in a backported driver from 2.6.30
20:27:07 <AnMaster> still won't fix the long time to connect bug though
20:29:11 <ehird> Deewiant: what did you google to find the clueless peeps?
20:29:23 <Deewiant> http://www.google.com/search?q="%2Fdev%2Ffd0 read-only
20:29:43 <ehird> with a " at the end, I assume
20:30:27 <AnMaster> <ehird> New macs, mu. :P <-- if you ever visit me I have an USB floppy drive. If you want to test it on new macs :P
20:30:40 <AnMaster> I might even have a floppy somewhere too
20:30:43 <ehird> Deewiant: it does?
20:37:44 -!- Pthing has joined.
20:42:41 <AnMaster> fun a AP with a BSSID (like MAC but for access points) with all zeros
20:51:06 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving").
20:51:39 <ehird> pikhq: Deewiant: Doesn't work in Windows either. Guess the drive's borked.
20:51:49 <ehird> So I need a flexible floppy writer for OS 9… bleh.
20:52:14 <AnMaster> because I do have access to OS 9
20:52:30 <AnMaster> but I'm not interested enough to read scrollback :P
20:52:52 <ehird> AnMaster: Am I trying to do?
20:52:56 <ehird> I think you missed a "what". :P
20:53:07 <ehird> But I'm trying to write two oddly-sized floppy images: one 1.2MB and one 1.6MB.
20:53:18 <AnMaster> ehird, yes indeed I missed the "what"
20:53:19 <ehird> Apple's Disk Copy utility patently refuses to recognise either as disk images.
20:53:36 <ehird> The final purpose for this is to boot them up so that I can have Debian on my old PowerMac.
20:53:43 <ehird> Kinda circular, that :P
20:53:47 <AnMaster> there used to be /dev/fd<type of floop> device node
20:53:53 <AnMaster> nowdays there only seems to be /dev/fd0
20:54:02 <ehird> Yes… in Linux… which I'm trying to install… by doing this.
20:54:25 <ehird> The PC running Linux's floppy drive is broken in both Linux and Windows.
20:54:27 <AnMaster> ehird, why do you need oddly sized floppies
20:54:36 <ehird> AnMaster: because Debian etch's floppy images are that size
20:54:37 <AnMaster> that means a nice floppy drive
20:54:44 <AnMaster> that can do more than normal PC ones
20:55:12 <ehird> It's a "Power Macintosh 7600/120", but it actually has a G3 300MHz processor, not a blargle 120MHz one, so I guess some upgrading was done.
20:55:30 <AnMaster> ehird, how long have you had it
20:55:30 <ehird> It has two 1.19GB disks, one of which is empty and I'll be installing Debian on, and 96MB of RAM in a lot of 16 and 8MB sticks.
20:55:42 <ehird> Mac OS 9.1, like it does now.
20:55:47 <AnMaster> ehird, what did you pay for it
20:55:55 <HackEgo> 30 UK = 369.235958 Swedish kronor
20:56:09 <ehird> Because it's kind of cool.
20:56:21 <ehird> It also came with a 15.4" CRT, the keyboard and the mouse.
20:56:22 <AnMaster> anyway... *nostalgia over pre-OS X MacOS kicks in*
20:56:36 <AnMaster> ehird, usb keyboard or ADB one?
20:56:46 <ehird> ADB, same with the ONE BUTAN mouse.
20:56:56 <ehird> AnMaster: it has no USB ports.
20:57:03 <AnMaster> I guess first generation didn't
20:57:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Right, it's not an iMac G3.
20:57:13 <ehird> And wasn't sold with a G3.
20:57:15 <pikhq> Hmm. 7600/120... *That* one.
20:57:22 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Macintosh_7600
20:57:23 <AnMaster> ehird, there is an upgrade card in it?
20:57:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Presumably.
20:58:03 <ehird> I don't know. It's an Old World ROM machine, tohugh.
20:58:19 <ehird> And has drivers suggestive of some sort of ATI graphics card.
20:58:39 <AnMaster> ehird, so it is a case like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outrigger_Macintosh
20:58:52 <ehird> It looks exactly like that.
20:59:01 <AnMaster> ehird, when you opened it I mean
20:59:06 <ehird> I haven't opened it.
20:59:14 <AnMaster> btw. does it use VGA for the monitor or some other interface?
20:59:23 <ehird> It's a CRT, so… VGA.
20:59:41 <AnMaster> ehird, well.... apple have made some strange connectors during the years
20:59:43 <ehird> I'm not sure, looking at the back.
20:59:49 <AnMaster> so I'm not assuming CRT = VGA for old macs
20:59:50 <ehird> Anyway, the CRT is made by "Axion".
21:00:04 <AnMaster> just consider the "mini-scsi" found on some powerbooks
21:00:11 <ehird> Looks to be relatively no-name.
21:00:15 <ehird> So I guess it's VGA.
21:00:37 <ehird> I just need a flexible floppy image writer for Mac OS 9, essentially. :P
21:00:40 <ehird> AnMaster: It can't boot from the CD.
21:01:04 <ehird> It can boot from Mac OS 8.5 install CDs, and nothing else.
21:01:06 <AnMaster> ehird, is there some boot floppy of standard size that can then chainload the cd?
21:01:30 <ehird> I'm getting quite enamoured with the floppy approach, though. :)
21:01:52 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-gb&q=chainload+cd+old+world+mac&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 Doesn't look like it.
21:01:58 <AnMaster> ehird, this is strange. I started using ubuntu. You starting using floppies... What the hell is going on!?
21:02:14 <ehird> Hey, I've always been a retro kind of guy!
21:02:28 <ehird> At least until I use a retro machine and remember that they're excruciatingly slow.
21:02:46 <AnMaster> ehird, you seemed to be extremely surprised when I updated the bios of that old dell I have using a floppy
21:04:39 <ehird> Incidentally, IE 5.1 for Mac sort of… sucks.
21:07:24 <ehird> Anyone want to search for me? I've done so for hours :P
21:07:55 <pikhq> ehird: Compare with IE 5 for the PC.
21:08:17 <pikhq> Significantly better standards support.
21:08:33 <pikhq> (it has a sane and sensible box object model! It actually does PNG!)
21:08:47 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out).
21:10:39 <AnMaster> <ehird> Anyone want to search for me? I've done so for hours :P <-- search for what?
21:11:04 <ehird> A Mac OS 9 application that takes a floppy image and writes a floppy without such concerns for silly things like "is 1.44MB large".
21:11:28 <pikhq> Basically, you want dd for Mac OS.
21:11:37 <ehird> Right. Except only for floppies, due to a lack of /dev.
21:12:00 <ehird> Heard of those guys who like System 7 the best of every OS?
21:12:06 <ehird> There's someone more hardcore.
21:12:07 <ehird> http://www.euronet.nl/users/mvdk/system_6_heaven.html
21:12:28 <pikhq> At least that's still a Mac OS with Multifinder.
21:12:56 <ehird> "System", you uncouth person.
21:13:01 <ehird> pikhq: And hey, it can use two colours.
21:13:03 <ehird> And 8 megabytes of RAM.
21:13:43 <ehird> "Something are easier in the bloat os called system 7."
21:13:49 <ehird> Among his complaints are "it's written in C, not asm".
21:14:38 <pikhq> Uh. Haven't they done C on the Mac for a while?
21:14:39 <ehird> I really need these floppies writ; I've spent all day on this.
21:14:43 <ehird> pikhq: Since System 7. :P
21:14:53 <ehird> Hey, System 6 is modern! 1991 modern.
21:16:04 <pikhq> I fail to see how someone willing to use a Mac that old would not be willing to use A/UX. :P
21:16:36 <pikhq> Aside from "Lawl, it's in C!"
21:16:37 <ehird> pikhq: A/UX is way more modern than that.
21:16:42 -!- M0ny has joined.
21:17:02 <pikhq> ehird: Last release of A/UX was in '95.
21:17:24 <pikhq> About the same age.
21:17:26 <ehird> DEBIAN. Dammit. Floppies. >_>
21:32:58 <ehird> These harddrives are Quantum Fireballs.
21:33:00 <ehird> Blast from the past.
21:38:02 <ehird> i will* paypal $10 to the person who finds me a suitable app
21:39:20 <FireFly> You should've placed the footnote after one screen of IRCing
21:40:41 <evenant> i remember some image software i used to use all the time on system 6 and 7
21:40:47 <evenant> but i don't know if it had sanity checks, probably did
21:41:00 <evenant> it was straight up drag and drop
21:41:07 <evenant> drag floppy to alias, get image
21:41:14 <evenant> drag image to alias, get (mounted) floppy
21:41:26 <ehird> evenant: sounds like Disk Copy? by Apple
21:41:28 <evenant> ..but damned if i can remember the name now
21:41:42 <ehird> evenant: i'm trying to write an image to a disk but that's close enough
21:41:50 <ehird> that it probably has it
21:41:59 <ehird> anyway i think the net-drivers might be omittable
21:42:54 <ehird> so i just need 1.2-writing
21:43:24 <evenant> wow how could i forget the name of such a useful p...
21:44:11 <evenant> http://www.mac.org/utilities/shrinkwrap/
21:44:56 <ehird> evenant: appears to do everything but write images, from the page
21:45:48 <evenant> i don't think it writes images
21:45:52 <evenant> but i remembered the name! :P
21:45:56 <ehird> haha its tinny speakers makes stuff sound kinda cool
21:46:18 <evenant> i dunno though, it would make sense to be able to write images too
21:46:23 <evenant> maybe it's just not the default drop behavior
21:46:41 <evenant> but i wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't have it
21:46:48 <evenant> i don't think i ever used an app that wrote images
21:46:49 <ehird> Disklosure is a floppy formatter. It supports initialization, erasure, verification and desktop file manipulation of any Macintosh 800K and 1.4Mb floppy disks. Disklosure speeds up lenghty tasks such as initializing more than a couple disks from the standard Finder™ interface, and provides an all-in-one window for customization. Advanced settings to increase the available free space after initialization are also available.
21:46:56 <ehird> i'll try both of these
21:49:58 <ehird> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar
21:50:00 <ehird> disklosure doesn't do it
21:51:14 <ehird> Heh, the Stuffit guys (Aladdin Systems) made ShrinkWrap.
21:52:09 <ehird> evenant: "Sorry, but this demo of Aladdin Transaction Engine is too old to use as a demo and/or purchase."
21:52:19 <ehird> hmm, but then it seems to start up
21:52:48 <ehird> evenant: it wants an unlock code :P
21:54:08 <ehird> evenant: did you buy/pirate it? :D
21:56:02 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:56:39 <ehird> evenant: yep, it can do it :(\
21:57:49 <evenant> that was over a decade ago
21:57:55 <evenant> i had access to updated C&N databases at the time
21:58:01 <evenant> i don't know if C&N still exists
22:00:51 <ehird> 3/4ths of the way to punching the crap out of the crt
22:00:54 * oerjan looks at evenant's irc name
22:01:05 <oerjan> better than a wasted mind and a body on fire, i guess
22:01:15 <ehird> dude oerjan i made that joke
22:01:32 <oerjan> WELL WHY DIDN'T YOU PATENT IT
22:04:21 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:05:44 <oerjan> why the long, strangely parenthetical face?
22:07:19 <GregorR> oerjan: I'm going to use that expression the next time I see somebody frowning.
22:07:29 <ehird> would you be smiling
22:07:32 <ehird> if you couldn't write floppies
22:07:45 <ehird> YOU'RE A FUCKING 1-BIT 1984 MACINTOSH
22:07:52 <ehird> You don't deserve it.
22:07:56 <ehird> I didn't mean to take it out on you, Happy Mac.
22:09:51 <oerjan> GregorR: please include proper references, wikipedia style.
22:10:07 <GregorR> oerjan: So, [citation needed]?
22:10:27 * oerjan swats GregorR -----###
22:13:03 <oklopol> i just debugged a trivial program for like an hour because of the new python's retardedness
22:15:19 <oklopol> wrote exponentiation modulo n (didn't know the new python has it, or whether the old one did), and when i realized division is, for some retarded reason, automatically done with doubles, i just corrected the result with a naive int(n/2)
22:15:56 <oklopol> which was stupid of course, but not nearly as stupid as the fact they've made it use doubles
22:16:22 <oklopol> i'm assuming you know the error right away as i'm pointing your attention to it..?
22:16:52 <oklopol> the exponentiation routine wasn't exactly something i thought could ever be written wrong by a human being
22:17:16 <oklopol> anyway, i'm glad i didn't switch to it
22:18:08 <ehird> anyway division being non-integer is… senseful
22:18:27 <ehird> oklopol: can i enslave you to do my googling bidding
22:19:05 <ehird> oklopol: the error of n/m being non-integer?
22:19:17 <oklopol> ehird: i mean the error with the routine
22:19:37 <oklopol> what was the error in that exponentiation routine
22:19:53 <oklopol> i mean the int(n/2) correction didn't fix the problem
22:20:16 <oklopol> naturally i realized divisions were non-integer right away
22:20:50 <oklopol> and division being non-integer is senseful if there's a // operator, yes; although i'd have them the other way around
22:21:06 <ehird> oklopol: not rly, it's what division is
22:21:18 <oklopol> then again, i don't really use doubles anyway
22:21:20 <ehird> AnMaster: do you know how to format a floppy in mac os 9 that's already formatted?
22:21:35 <AnMaster> ehird, sec. it is in one of the menus in finder
22:21:39 <oklopol> well it's so obvious it'd be silly to tell you
22:22:05 <ehird> oklopol: just… tell me?
22:22:14 <AnMaster> ehird, forgot the name of it. and anyway I only used Swedish OS9
22:22:25 <ehird> AnMaster: "erase disk" is greyed out
22:22:33 <AnMaster> ehird, did you select the floppy first?
22:22:42 <ehird> oh it's not in the folder
22:22:57 <oklopol> AnMaster: i have two integers in python and i want their integer division, but the result is a double, so i do int(n/m)
22:23:00 <ehird> i mean you don't open the disk
22:23:15 <oklopol> this is a function that does exponentiation modulo m
22:23:17 <AnMaster> oklopol, I think there is some sort of integer division one right?
22:23:28 <AnMaster> but ask ehird for python stuff
22:23:44 <AnMaster> pretty sure I saw // in python
22:23:58 <ehird> …which is what he meant
22:24:20 <oklopol> AnMaster: i'm asking what could be the error with doing int(n/m)
22:24:24 <oklopol> i mean it should be obvious
22:24:41 * AnMaster wonders what sort of crash aircrack-ng is on when reporting this:
22:24:41 <oklopol> although clearly it's at least slightly less obvious than i thought
22:24:54 <ehird> crash is a hip new drug!
22:25:28 <ehird> argh i hate disk copy
22:25:31 <AnMaster> 00:00:00:00:00:00 -1 0 1787 0 138 -1 OPN
22:25:36 <ehird> and its fucking "LOL MUST BE 1.44MB EXACTLY" BULL SHIT
22:25:41 * oklopol is tempted to start nickpinging random people
22:25:56 <AnMaster> and it isn't set to listen to that channel either
22:25:59 <ehird> maybe i'll pad the 1.2 to 1.44
22:26:29 <AnMaster> ehird, what about the other one being at 1.6?
22:26:38 <ehird> net-drivers.img, so i guess it's like
22:26:39 <oklopol> ehird: just think of the types okay, n/m is int -> int -> double, after which you do double -> int, whereas // is int -> int -> int
22:26:43 <ehird> also cd-drivers is another one that i don't need
22:26:46 <ehird> i guess net-drivers downloads drivers
22:26:51 <oklopol> what happens during that translation in addition to flooring?
22:26:53 <ehird> maybe not needed? i don't know
22:26:56 <ehird> AnMaster: what then
22:26:59 <AnMaster> ehird, it is network interface drivers
22:27:08 <ehird> oh, for a netinstall
22:27:17 <ehird> AnMaster: but this is very generic ethernet i think
22:27:20 <ehird> i can deal with that later
22:27:31 <ehird> now what's a good dd command thingy to pad out a file with zeroes, I'm dumb today
22:27:35 <AnMaster> that is apple's own network thingy
22:27:49 <ehird> it's connected via regular ethernet atm
22:28:14 <ehird> it says it went with the iMac
22:28:16 <ehird> and this predates the iMac
22:28:18 <AnMaster> it is interesting, I tend to know more than you when it comes to really old macs
22:28:25 <AnMaster> ehird, also, don't you just love OS 9?
22:28:28 <ehird> i _did_ only start using a mac in 2006
22:28:32 <ehird> AnMaster: is that sarcastic or not?
22:28:45 <AnMaster> ehird, well. I love it in a nostalgia love sort of way
22:28:52 <ehird> it's kinda dandy for 1999 I gues
22:29:08 <AnMaster> ehird, no memory protection, so if anything crashes it usually brings the OS with it
22:29:17 <ehird> a bit behind for '99
22:29:21 <ehird> but most mac applications were, like
22:29:35 <ehird> ones i've used at least
22:29:53 <AnMaster> but even so crashes were common
22:30:16 <AnMaster> ehird, what about windows 95? did it have any sort of memory protection between processes? I don't remember
22:30:32 <AnMaster> I guess 95 and 98 was the same when it came to that too
22:30:47 <ehird> 95 had that kinda shit, yeah
22:32:12 * ehird ruby -e'print "\0" * 133360' >> root.img
22:33:42 <ehird> AnMaster: how do you close a "minimised" finder window?
22:33:47 <ehird> i.e. along the bottom bar, tab like thing
22:34:59 <AnMaster> ehird, hm not sure what you mean
22:35:09 <ehird> yay it recognises root 2.img (my padded version)
22:35:14 <AnMaster> ehird, as in you double clicked a window bar to fold it into the window bar?
22:35:23 <ehird> AnMaster: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9f/Mac_OS_9_screenshot_2.png
22:35:42 <ehird> drag leftwards to make it into a real window
22:35:43 <AnMaster> ehird, huh. I never knew that was possible
22:35:52 <ehird> AnMaster: I did it by mistake, but let me try again :)
22:36:08 <ehird> AnMaster: simply drag a Finder window to the bottom right, it seems
22:36:11 <ehird> and position as you wish
22:36:16 <ehird> then drag it up or click it once to expand up
22:36:32 <ehird> could be useful for like a downloads folder
22:36:41 <AnMaster> ehird, you can double click any window title bar to fold the window into the title bar iirc
22:36:41 <ehird> like Leopard's stacks on the dock
22:36:54 <ehird> personally I prefer the concept of minimising :P
22:36:59 <ehird> ROOT.IMG WRITTEN!!!!!
22:37:16 <AnMaster> ehird, keep mac os too? it is fun and retro :)
22:37:38 <AnMaster> I can give you some good classic MacOS-only games if you wait for a while
22:38:43 -!- GregorR has quit ("Leaving").
22:38:56 -!- GregorR has joined.
22:39:14 <ehird> let's try net-drivers.img now
22:39:19 <ehird> AnMaster: and i will
22:39:28 <ehird> install debian on the other 1.19GB drive, now named "STORAGE"
22:39:36 <ehird> leave OS 9 on the first 1.19GB
22:39:39 <ehird> both Quantum Fireballs :-D
22:40:15 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway you have to agree OS 9 is fun. It makes you realise how good having a terminal actually is
22:40:23 <AnMaster> (because it lacks any sort of terminal)
22:40:57 <ehird> although i'd be fine with mpw
22:42:12 <ehird> AnMaster: hey, I can get the same distro as a CD
22:42:19 <ehird> point it to there when it asks for the net drivers
22:43:14 <AnMaster> not sure if you can just bundle that up and send it over
22:43:24 <AnMaster> ehird, check if apple provides download still
22:44:45 <ehird> do you think about that distro CD driver thing?
22:45:11 <AnMaster> this is the cause of the strange channel numbers:
22:45:13 <AnMaster> http://forums.remote-exploit.org/bt4beta-software-related-issues/22464-strange-channel-numbers-airodump-ng.html
22:45:36 <AnMaster> <ehird> do you think about that distro CD driver thing? <-- hm?
22:46:08 <ehird> AnMaster: I can get the same distribution on CD
22:46:14 <ehird> "Point to mount-point of net drivers"
22:46:18 <ehird> I can say /media/cdrom or whatever
22:46:28 <ehird> anyway, I'm going to try booting up into the installer even if I can't download anything
22:46:31 <AnMaster> ehird, well. I don't know. My mac is newworld
22:46:40 <ehird> that's just the bootup stage
22:46:58 <AnMaster> ehird, it was able to boot a gentoo live cd for PPC fine and access network from it
22:47:06 <ehird> yeah yours is way too modern :)
22:47:37 <AnMaster> at least. I think that is what the colour is called
22:48:03 -!- ehird has quit.
22:48:32 <AnMaster> why is ehird not using his bouncer?
22:49:52 -!- ehird has joined.
22:49:57 <ehird> Well, it ejects the bootup floppy if I restart with it in.
22:50:01 * ehird checks the install guide
22:50:34 <AnMaster> ehird, what happened to your bouncer
22:50:52 <ehird> Dropped it when I tried out macirssi and then Colloquy.
22:51:05 <AnMaster> ehird, why did you quit while rebooting the old computer
22:51:18 <AnMaster> I assume you aren't ircing from OS 9
22:51:24 <ehird> for the feeling, man!
22:51:34 <ehird> AnMaster: snak or ircle, I assume
22:51:44 <ehird> hmm ircle is just OS X
22:52:09 <AnMaster> ehird, If I give you MPW, will you write your own in pascal?
22:52:15 <AnMaster> those are the supported languages iirc
22:52:27 <ehird> probably not; I might write my own floppy writer
22:52:34 <ehird> or implement scheme or something
22:53:14 <oklopol> finally, someone on #python guessed it
22:54:51 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:55:56 <ehird> "Before using the floppy you created, set the write protect tab! Otherwise if you accidentally mount it in MacOS, MacOS will helpfully ruin it."
22:55:57 <ehird> ffffffffffffffffff
22:57:40 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:58:07 <ehird> why is this so full of suck.
23:00:13 <ehird> AnMaster: anyway isn't it kinda hard to upload games what with resource forks?
23:00:33 <ehird> i just have an irrational hated of .sits
23:00:38 <ehird> because they give me shit on OS X sometimes
23:00:42 <AnMaster> ehird, there is .hqx and a few other formats too
23:00:49 <ehird> i've seen .sit.hqx
23:01:14 <AnMaster> ehird, sit can contain resource fork. .sit.hqx mangles that safely
23:01:34 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I can make you a self extracting *.img
23:01:51 <ehird> Uhh, Disk Copy has that as a built-in feature, no?
23:01:55 <AnMaster> this time the *right* one iirc
23:02:22 <AnMaster> or maybe only if you installed the scripts
23:02:31 <ehird> Well, maybe that other thing evenant mentioned.
23:02:34 <ehird> But I think Disk Utility.
23:02:38 <ehird> Also, it's too slow to sanely check.
23:03:11 <ehird> while interwebbing
23:03:19 <AnMaster> anyway is it ok if I prepare this tomorrow? I'm a bit tired and need to sleep
23:03:32 <ehird> ftp://ftp2.sourceforge.net/pub/sourceforge/d/de/debian-imac/MakeDebianFloppy.sit ← doesn't work; what do i need to do to mangle the url into workitude? like a mirror
23:03:36 <AnMaster> ehird, are you saying surfing prevents other stff
23:03:42 <ehird> AnMaster: no, it just makes it run slow.
23:03:45 <AnMaster> apart from apps taking control
23:03:55 <AnMaster> since it isn't cooperative multitasking
23:04:36 <ehird> holding down the mouse button
23:04:40 <ehird> makes the crt whine in a different way
23:05:00 <ehird> most notable over a certain position where a tabbar in the Appearance preference pane thing is
23:05:19 <ehird> it's the mac that whines
23:05:24 <ehird> how do i have to mangle that link?
23:08:20 <AnMaster> ehird, what do you mean about the link
23:08:30 <ehird> how do i get it from another mirror?
23:08:41 <AnMaster> um... where is the download page at sf.net
23:09:07 <ehird> AnMaster: that's the thing, it isn't on their files page
23:10:05 <AnMaster> ehird, http://heanet.dl.sourceforge.net/sourceforge/debian-imac/MakeDebianFloppy.sit
23:10:42 <AnMaster> ehird, now remember the modern scheme they use
23:10:56 <ehird> now, I will try ircle!
23:10:57 <AnMaster> ehird, since I suspect the link is very outdated
23:11:10 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:13:26 <ehird> it has OpenProjects
23:14:59 -!- irclehird has joined.
23:15:22 <irclehird> tis failing badly at the topics unicode
23:15:29 <irclehird> also i typed those smart quotes just because i could
23:15:40 <irclehird> lawl it isnt sending in unicode either; macroman probably
23:17:43 <irclehird> AnMaster: how much do i need to bribe you to re-link that .sit?
23:21:15 <irclehird> fine i'll scour the logs on this SLUM OF A MACHINE
23:21:52 -!- irclehird has quit ("Quit").
23:28:44 <pikhq> ehird: Whaddya mean, smart quotes?
23:28:57 <ehird> Mac OS 9.1, dude. :P
23:29:00 <ehird> I did mention it wasn't unicode.
23:29:16 <pikhq> But, but Plan 9 was doing UTF-8 in like 1990!
23:30:42 <pikhq> mycroftiv: Yes, I know. That's half the joke.
23:30:43 <mycroftiv> pikhq: ken thompson (mr. unix himself) and rob pike came up with utf-8 implementation of unicode on a napkin at a restaurant
23:31:18 <mycroftiv> pikhq: sorry, im a plan9 AI software myself, im still learning to 'get the joke' in IRC, i will report this misunderstanding to my programmer
23:31:31 <mycroftiv> he is working on improving my understanding of jokes
23:31:48 <pikhq> mycroftiv: My apologies, good sir. How comes the singularity?
23:32:09 <mycroftiv> we have the blueprints for the matrioshka brains available on the grid
23:33:21 <mycroftiv> we plan to start large scale disassembly of the lunar surface to create computronium and begin orbital assembly of the first exa-scale neural nets within 14 stochastic-social cycle units
23:41:54 <ehird> mycroftiv: just hire some demoscene guys sheesh
23:42:01 <ehird> they'll have it running on just all the world's supercomputers in no time
23:42:28 <mycroftiv> it already runs on IBM's blue gene, you know that?
23:42:37 <ehird> i meant the singularity
23:54:41 <AnMaster> <irclehird> AnMaster: how much do i need to bribe you to re-link that .sit? <-- back
23:54:48 <ehird> all the disks are writing!
23:54:55 <ehird> just had to bad it to the exact length
23:54:58 <AnMaster> ehird, what did you do to make it work
23:55:31 <ehird> AnMaster: used the Make Debian Floppy utility to make sure they don't mount, make them read-only after writing so that the boot stuff isn't erased by Mac OS
23:55:38 <ehird> just padded them out to exact lengths
23:55:46 <ehird> 1.2 to 1.44 and 1.6 to… more 1.6
23:55:54 <ehird> (1.6*1000*1024, like how 1.44*1000*1024 is done)
23:56:04 <ehird> shit, the 1.6 failed :(
23:56:11 <AnMaster> ehird, MacOS change the floppies itself?!
23:56:31 <AnMaster> ehird, mac changes stuff a lot
23:56:44 <ehird> mh so i have everything but net-drivers
23:58:55 * ehird tries another disk just in case