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00:32:03 <ehird_> http://corefault.de/uploads/2009-07-31_140758_webgui.jpg
00:32:09 <ehird_> Do not put the baby in this book.
00:32:32 <Slereah> Did you droo a moustache on it
00:37:18 <ehird_> Apparently it's a university's admission book
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00:56:46 <Warrigal> I seem to kind of remember that book.
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01:47:40 <zzo38> Did you see that now I have a formatted IRC log too, for each channels, in HTML format?
01:48:16 <zzo38> Please other people can save the log too while I am not
01:49:12 <ehird_> zzo38: fyi it's considered incredibly bad taste to log channels without asking, in general
01:49:16 <ehird_> and often gets you banned
01:49:25 <zzo38> But they are my own channels that I created
01:49:47 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/irclog/
01:50:00 <zzo38> My projects are on IRCNET however, not Freenode
01:50:20 <ehird_> i'd join but I can't be bothered to connect to another server for the purpose
01:50:26 <zzo38> And do you know TheDailyWTF? I posted some FlogScript codes there too
01:50:34 <zzo38> You can view the logs without going to IRCNET
01:50:43 <ehird_> viewing logs != talking
01:51:18 <zzo38> And if you want the codes for the log module (it is a PHP module for PHIRC, and then a CRISC script also for automating set-up of logging on the channels)
01:51:59 <pikhq> Think you could learn a less awful language, like Perl, INTER
01:52:01 <zzo38> If they add support for modeless channels to Freenode then I might move the channels to Freenode
01:52:29 <ehird_> zzo38: why does it need to be modeless
01:52:52 <zzo38> TDWTF has "Programming Praxis" challenges where you post the codes in whatever way you want it posted, including your own way, I wanted to do code-golfing so I did.
01:53:20 <zzo38> There are a few other esoteric languages used there too
01:53:25 <ehird_> zzo38: why does it need to be modeless
01:53:26 <coppro> if I find the time, I'm doing this one in library-less INTERCAL
01:53:39 <zzo38> Because I want it modeless, that's why.
01:53:50 <ehird_> zzo38: so it being modeless trumps anyone actually talking there?
01:53:55 <ehird_> i'm not sure you understand what irc is for
01:54:00 <zzo38> Which one are you doing in library-less INTERCAL?
01:56:36 <zzo38> I also set my client to beep when anyone joins in that window, so I can be notified if someone joins. The titlebar also flashes whenever anything other than PING or ignored messages is received
02:00:42 <zzo38> Really, I don't know.
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02:12:27 <zzo38> There's an example of the logging software: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/irclog/PHIRC/20090806.html
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04:18:07 <Sgeo> !bf .+++++++.>+.<+++.>-..<.,,,[-].+.-.++++++++++.>.<--.>.,+[,.]++.>[-]+++++++++++++++++.<++.>-------.>[-]+[[-].+..+++++++++.,,,.]++.-.-.++++++++++.
04:19:09 * Sgeo realizes that there's indication in there that it's PSOX
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04:28:50 <Sgeo> yourworldoftext.com/static
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05:49:31 * coppro just discovered PRIMARY
05:49:45 <pikhq> What, the prime material plane?
05:52:58 <coppro> namely that it lets you copy without the clipboard on intelligent applications
05:53:10 <coppro> so you can keep stuff clipboarded for later use
06:03:25 <coppro> select text without copying, then middle-click somewhere
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06:08:09 <pikhq> Yes, I'm very well aware of it.
06:08:51 <pikhq> A "clipboard" is a higher-level abstraction offered by the GTK+ and Qt toolkits.
06:09:04 <pikhq> Quite different from the X selection buffer that X has had for ages.
06:12:01 <coppro> well, they use the X selections in the same way, so all is happy
06:15:15 <pikhq> No, they don't. 100% completely different.
06:16:05 <pikhq> Not just a different buffer for things to be stored. The two are completely independent of each other.
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06:46:54 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Yup.
06:51:37 <pikhq> I live in Missouri.
06:51:49 <pikhq> I used to live in Colorado.
06:52:01 <pikhq> Anyways, I'm going to the Missouri University of Science & Technology.
06:52:18 <pikhq> (which is to say, the only academically notable place in this entire state)
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10:39:56 <oklofok> well, first of all the word for "to slumber" is "uinua"
10:40:20 <augur> do i know finnish yet?
10:40:51 <oklofok> augur: i'd say you know most of it
10:40:53 <augur> someone should write that.
10:41:05 <augur> i want to see a language-learning site for coders.
10:41:22 <augur> something that isnt afraid to use theory-relevant stuff, too.
10:42:07 <augur> if you're a computational linguist, you'll learn it really quickly.
10:42:18 <augur> if youre just a coder or a linguist, rather quickly
10:42:28 <augur> and if youre neither, you wont learn it at all because you're dumb.
10:42:53 <augur> oklofok, do one for finnish.
10:43:08 <augur> but you ARE a coder!
10:43:36 <oklofok> but..............................
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10:44:07 <augur> fizzie do you speak finnish fluently?
10:44:24 <okloput> it's funny because he lives in helsinki
10:44:40 <fizzie> I don't speak anything very fluently, but this IRC client text input box displays "fl" and "fi" as ligatures.
10:46:25 <fizzie> Whoops, where did that extra i come from.
10:46:47 <augur> fizzie, you should do it. seriously.
10:46:56 <augur> write it up using some formal grammar
10:47:13 <okloput> i've never seen the use of language learning sites, the only hard part is to learn the vocab, and there's no magic bullet for that; i mean there are tricks, sure, but it's still a fucking quadrillion word ride
10:47:33 <augur> grammar can be tricky in some languages
10:47:36 <okloput> once you learn the words, just read a few pages from a book and you'll know it all
10:47:37 <augur> it depends on the language, ofcourse
10:47:44 <fizzie> I'm not sure I have an affinity for writing things.
10:48:14 <augur> granted, a good grammar book written for smart readers can be condensed to a few dozen pages, for most stuff
10:48:16 <augur> but there are nuances
10:48:40 <augur> italian is relatively similar to english, but even so there need to be a bunch of specifications of the differences
10:48:43 <augur> odd differences too
10:48:54 <augur> ones that dont easily map to english
10:49:13 <okloput> i'm sure a very smart reader can guess the odd differences!
10:49:24 <augur> maybe from lots of practice!
10:49:52 <augur> there are a lot of things that would be simplified, tho, with just a simple formal treatment
10:50:19 <augur> so much of commonly used italian grammar could be condensed down to like two or three pages of tree diagrams and stuff
10:51:06 <okloput> i just know "noun adj", the rest comes naturally
10:51:18 <okloput> (i'm like totally fluent in italian)
10:51:20 <fizzie> Oh, and incidentally, I still don't live in Helsinki; I live in Espoo, which (despite several attempts) has not yet transmogrified into one big city with Helsinki. I think I pointed this out once already.
10:51:44 <augur> "head movement to T in for non-aux T's, object shift for non-3p.pl pronouns, optional WH movement with T-to-C"
10:51:48 <okloput> fizzie: right, then again my joke was, for some reason, completely missed by augur anyway
10:51:52 <augur> that describes a huge portion of the differences
10:52:13 <okloput> it's as if he doesn't know what a guy in turku could joke about in someone from helsinki
10:52:38 <augur> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Espoon_Tapiola_kesällä.jpg <3
10:53:55 <okloput> was about to say that was a goddamn sexy view, but when i saw the kids, i figured it might be a bit inappropriate
10:54:18 <augur> hey youre the one who had a 13 year old girlfriend when you were 19
10:54:53 <augur> okloput, be my finnish boyfriend. ill pretend im 13
10:55:36 <okloput> 13-yo's are physically adults, they're just stupider
10:56:11 <augur> okloput: and with smaller cocks.
10:57:15 <fizzie> Haven't you done a comparative study?
10:57:45 <okloput> i know very little about people's cocks after about 12, because i haven't seen one in years
10:58:06 <augur> you should fix this.
10:58:08 <okloput> actually i may have seen tons in the sauna
10:58:25 <augur> cocks are lovely things.
10:58:28 <Slereah> But not in erection, though
10:58:34 <Slereah> Unless you went to that kind of sauna
10:58:35 <augur> especially uncut cocks, which im sure finnish cocks are.
10:58:51 <okloput> Slereah: i'm not sure i've seen another man's erection irl, ever
10:59:15 <okloput> ...wait that's another lie, there was this one dude once who started stroking his in the sauna when i was a kid
10:59:36 <augur> okloput, if i build a sauna, will you come sit in it? :o
10:59:39 <okloput> true story, my shortest swimming trip ever
11:00:22 <okloput> i have nothing against naked mixed gender sauna with strangers
11:00:46 <Slereah> augur's sauna won't be mixed genders
11:00:48 <augur> how about hot sauna sex?
11:01:11 <augur> slereah: well it could be. i dont care if girls are there. as long as i dont have to fuck them what do i care
11:01:14 <okloput> sauna is not so good for sex
11:01:22 <augur> you're not going to the right saunas
11:01:41 <Slereah> Sauna sex is a good way to get a stroke
11:01:43 <augur> well we could turn off the heat and generate some ourselves, so
11:03:05 <okloput> i think i need to go to the shoppe now
11:03:22 <fizzie> I think you're doing something wrong if you generate ~80 degrees Celsius of body heat.
11:03:45 <augur> fizzie: or something very very right ;D
11:03:49 <okloput> Slereah: that, plus usually the seats are not very comfy, there are some technical difficulties
11:04:15 <fizzie> But they sell these special "sauna pillow" things.
11:04:25 <Slereah> Plus, augur, how do you want to get the horse in the sauna
11:04:26 <fizzie> We have one, I've never quite understood the point of it.
11:04:29 <okloput> but you can get interesting positions if you're not afraid to use the rail... well, assuming traditional finnish sauna blueprints
11:04:49 <augur> slereah: well we'll work on that
11:04:53 <fizzie> You also get interesting burns if something slips, I assume.
11:05:20 <fizzie> I knew a girl who sat on a sauna stove (is that what "kiuas" officially is) at the age of four or something.
11:05:39 <okloput> personally i'd love to install kiuas in the english language
11:05:56 <okloput> they already fucked up sauna in pronunciation
11:06:01 <fizzie> Sauna's already in there, why not all related paraphernalia.
11:06:17 <augur> its not said sooooooona in nglish
11:06:38 <augur> unless you're using that to mean the sound in the word "saw"
11:06:55 <okloput> he said it to me, the other finn
11:06:57 <fizzie> Well, yes, you have to read the "soooona" word like a Finn would, also.
11:07:16 <augur> i dont know how "ooooooooo" would be pronounced by a finn
11:07:29 <okloput> augur: o is always the "aw" thing
11:07:43 <okloput> finnish has the same vowels as lojban, except for y
11:07:50 <augur> i presume "sauna" is "sah-oo-nuh"?
11:07:56 <okloput> the lojban y is in finnish
11:09:26 <augur> well you cant really blame english speakers for doing it wrong
11:09:33 <augur> they adopt words using the spelling as a guide
11:09:37 <okloput> i can't, i was just making a joke.
11:09:43 <augur> but they use english pronunciation for the spelling
11:10:07 <augur> and au in english is finnish o
11:10:25 <fizzie> What I didn't know is that it's a verb too, according to Wiktionary.
11:10:29 <fizzie> "to sauna (third-person singular simple present saunas, present participle saunaing, simple past and past participle saunaed)"
11:10:41 <augur> almost every noun can be used as a verb in english
11:10:44 <fizzie> How are you saunaing today?
11:12:11 <fizzie> Soon shall be the time of the Great Saunification.
11:12:41 <okloput> augur: as a finn, i find that a natural way to abuse your language
11:13:04 <augur> saunification is grammatical, saunation isnt
11:13:09 <augur> saunation is just weird
11:14:08 <okloput> well it's from the verb saunate, which clearly has something to do with sauna
11:14:12 <fizzie> There's "tarnation", there should be "saunation".
11:14:22 <augur> saunate is a verb now?
11:14:25 <fizzie> What the saunation?! You haven't saunaed at all today?!
11:14:39 <augur> the phrase is "what in tarnation"
11:14:41 <fizzie> It's a bit like the smurfs do, except, you know, boiling heat.
11:14:55 <okloput> augur: it's not completely a verb.
11:15:12 <augur> "tarnation is also not from "tarnate"
11:15:15 <augur> its from "entire nation"
11:15:26 <okloput> i really don't try to make my purposefully horrible word bendings grammatical
11:15:42 <augur> theyre better when theyre grammatical but nonsensical
11:15:55 <okloput> that's what most finns say about my finnish bends
11:17:08 <okloput> so. what if you made childish porn
11:17:43 <augur> i think /you/ should make porn
11:18:03 <okloput> it's with girls, you wouldn't like it
11:18:09 <augur> as long as it has you in it :D
11:18:34 <okloput> i doubt i have anything left, and i probably wouldn't give it to you
11:20:26 <augur> alternatively spelled meanie
11:20:30 <augur> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/meanie
11:20:31 <okloput> well what do you know it's an alternate spelling i haven't seen
11:20:55 <okloput> this was, though, exactly how i planned this conversation to go
11:21:06 <augur> with you being wrong?
11:21:26 <okloput> it was a clever ruse of mine
11:21:40 <okloput> you can't possibly remember what we were talking about, now
11:21:46 <okloput> because you got to be right
11:21:50 <okloput> and that's the best porn of all
11:22:01 <augur> the best porn of all is you naked
11:22:24 <okloput> seriously, i'm not *that* much above average hotness
11:24:09 <augur> and thats all that matters *.*
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13:56:54 <ehird> joy, a fucking stupid reddit post saying that apple should have an antitrust suit filed against them
13:57:09 <ehird> the rules that apply to MS do not apply to apple because THEY ARE PROTECTIONS BECAUSE THEY ARE A MONOPOLY
13:57:23 <ehird> and for the last time hardware DRM isn't illegal!
13:59:30 <ehird> 22:03:25 <coppro> select text without copying, then middle-click somewhere
13:59:36 <ehird> you don't know about this?
14:00:33 <ehird> 02:44:07 <augur> fizzie do you speak finnish fluently?
14:01:17 <ehird> 02:51:20 <fizzie> Oh, and incidentally, I still don't live in Helsinki; I live in Espoo, which (despite several attempts) has not yet transmogrified into one big city with Helsinki. I think I pointed this out once already.
14:01:17 <ehird> that's what they want you to think
14:01:56 <ehird> 02:54:18 <augur> hey youre the one who had a 13 year old girlfriend when you were 19
14:01:56 <ehird> 02:54:22 <augur> or whatever
14:01:56 <ehird> 02:54:27 <okloput> when i was *18*
14:01:56 <ehird> 02:54:32 <augur> whatever
14:01:57 <ehird> 02:54:33 <augur> same thing
14:01:57 <ehird> from this we can conclude that 1=2
14:02:17 <okloput> and we can conclude from it that true is false, and therefore everything is true.
14:02:51 <ehird> 02:55:36 <okloput> 13-yo's are physically adults, they're just stupider
14:02:51 <ehird> i'm gonna be like this as an adult?
14:03:10 <ehird> 02:57:45 <okloput> i know very little about people's cocks after about 12, because i haven't seen one in years
14:03:10 <ehird> i'm afraid to ask how much you know about people's cocks before 12
14:03:13 <okloput> well i was talking about girls
14:03:37 <okloput> ehird: a lot, because one of the subjects at school involved getting in the shower with guys.
14:03:47 <ehird> oh well that doesn't count
14:03:50 <ehird> that's just their fake penises
14:04:22 <ehird> 03:01:41 <Slereah> Sauna sex is a good way to get a stroke
14:04:23 <ehird> BUT WHAT WAS STROKE? (A: Genitals.)
14:05:23 <ehird> also okloput i have this awesome mental image of saunas where it's physically impossible to see anything more than, say, 5cm in front of you
14:05:26 <ehird> please tell me it's true
14:06:05 <ehird> could make sex rather hard, unless you have a really tiny penis
14:06:07 <okloput> in most saunas, it's just dark
14:06:40 <okloput> well yes, probably, in a sauna
14:06:55 <okloput> because the seats are a few meters from the floor
14:07:11 <ehird> zero gravity sauna
14:07:39 <fizzie> There's also the whole savusauna thing, without a chimney.
14:07:41 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauna#Smoke_sauna
14:07:48 <ehird> fizzie: that, in zero gravity
14:07:48 <okloput> sex in a zero-gravity sauna while having tea
14:07:57 <okloput> fizzie: in those, you can see 5cm
14:08:00 <ehird> s/sauna/smoke sauna/
14:08:06 <okloput> because there is no smoke in a smoke sauna
14:08:22 <okloput> because you'd die otherwise
14:08:35 <fizzie> The ones I've been to tend to be pretty black, though, and just generally dark too.
14:08:40 <ehird> sex in a fatal zero-gravity smoke sauna while having tea and coffee at the same time
14:08:43 <okloput> well yes, they are very dark
14:09:08 <okloput> ehird: that sounds pretty awesome, we should totally implement it
14:09:23 <ehird> right except i'm not too sure about the whole fatal part
14:09:31 <okloput> ...also lyly would work great as a loanword
14:09:45 <okloput> would probably beat kiuas in unpronounceability
14:11:14 <okloput> ehird: well right the fatal part may need some honing
14:11:30 <okloput> unless you want like a perfect final experience thing
14:11:57 <ehird> i'm thinking that dying of being in the same room as smoke is unpleasant
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14:25:47 <ehird> basically i think oxygen like
14:29:37 <fizzie> I don't think, I just ask the computer to think for me:
14:29:39 <fizzie> i think oxygen going "oh no", then? brilliant! who's driving it? maybe syntax-e identity in psyntax?
14:29:59 <fizzie> "Oxygen going 'oh no'" sounds like trouble ahead.
14:31:50 <ehird> RecursionRecursionRecursionRecursionButtcursion
14:38:39 <ehird> http://man.cat-v.org/plan_b/1/ego
14:39:30 <ehird> Cool, this "in-browser implementation of Python" chokes on class A(object): pass.
15:02:07 <ehird> http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/PwccqNBl5qtxvki3vTc7oo9no1_1280.png?AWSAccessKeyId=0RYTHV9YYQ4W5Q3HQMG2&Expires=1249740096&Signature=iPL8Sjiw8BVkaPnSLT5dhf3vbU8%3D ;; Well, this is simple!
15:03:08 <ehird> "Quick! In five seconds, how do you upgrade from Vista Business 32-bit to Windows 7 Professional 64-bit?"
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15:35:14 <oerjan> <augur> its from "entire nation"
15:35:29 <oerjan> and here i assumed it was a euphemism for damnation
15:36:23 <pikhq> Be more amusing if it were a euphemism for euphemism.
15:37:36 <oerjan> i will take your word for that.
15:39:28 <oerjan> <ehird> from this we can conclude that 1=2
15:39:41 <oerjan> and from that we can deduce that bertrand russell is the pope.
15:40:01 <oerjan> (he did it himself, you know.)
15:40:10 <ehird> mope the pope tote
15:40:22 <pikhq> And from that we can deduce that the Pope is not really Catholic.
15:41:03 <ehird> oerjan: anyway that's clearly a bit off
15:41:10 <ehird> father son holy ghost
15:41:16 <ehird> so you'd want to be proving 1=3
15:41:18 <ehird> or rather infinity=3
15:41:39 <oerjan> ehird: i don't think the trinity entered the proof
15:44:10 <pikhq> ehird: n=succ(n), more like.
15:44:25 <ehird> Is that an infinite recursion of oral?
15:48:46 <oerjan> <ehird> "Quick! In five seconds, how do you upgrade from Vista Business 32-bit to Windows 7 Professional 64-bit?" <-- my first guess would be, "not in five seconds."
15:51:49 <pikhq> They've started opening unbranded "stealth cafés" in order to compete with local coffee shops.
15:52:25 <ehird> for one, it says starbucks all over, and there's tons of news about it; nobody's going to be "fooled"
15:52:39 <ehird> for the other, most reports from people who have actually been there suggest it isn't really a starbucks
15:52:49 <ehird> as in, business-wise it is, but coffee-wise it's better
15:52:57 <ehird> "inspired by starbucks"
15:53:02 <ehird> is some weird-ass wording
15:53:11 <pikhq> Though if it still has the shit coffee, not worth going.
15:53:50 <ehird> Uhh, NSFW: http://imgur.com/VJzZW.jpg
15:54:56 <ehird> More naked obama + unicorn than you could shake a horn at: http://wildammo.com/2009/07/27/unusual-paintings-of-obama-naked-with-unicorns/
15:55:37 <oerjan> is that Dr. House on the right?
15:56:08 <ehird> And Stalin on the left.
15:56:49 <oerjan> so where are the _usual_ paintings of obama naked with unicorns?
15:57:03 <ehird> I DON'T WANT TO KNOW
15:57:44 <ehird> My brain basically shut off with http://wildammo.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/obama-painting10.jpg
15:58:38 <ehird> the painter appears to be a right-winger
16:01:22 <ehird> obama's testicles are as of yet not painted.
16:01:27 <ehird> (i hope, at least.)
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16:31:10 <okloput> ehird: Is that an infinite recursion of oral? <<< what?
16:33:31 <ehird> mycroftiv: you there?
16:34:05 <okloput> oh oral, you mean like oral
16:34:16 <okloput> i assumed that was "or all", written in a condensed form
16:34:31 <okloput> meaning some well-known function
16:34:46 <ehird> okloput: well or all is just fold or, obviously
16:34:53 <ehird> so "or all" is a funny way of saying "any"
16:35:24 <okloput> exactly, kinda like your mother is
16:35:42 <ehird> my mother is indeed a funny way of saying any
16:36:13 <oerjan> okloput: we thus must consider the dual abbreviation of "and all"
16:36:48 * oerjan swats okloput for ruining the joke -----###
16:36:55 <ehird> andal is also known as all, okloput :P
16:37:49 <okloput> oerjan: sorry, i wasn't thinking.
16:38:06 <EgoBot> all or :: [[Bool]] -> Bool
16:38:20 <oerjan> EgoBot: you're a bit slow today
16:39:43 <pikhq> !haskell all or [[True,False],[False,True]]
16:39:55 <okloput> then again, anyand is even nicer
16:40:13 <oerjan> !haskell any and [[True,False],[False,True]]
16:41:14 <ehird> haha wow the LoseThos guy is even turning on the Loper OS guy, who praised it
16:41:18 <ehird> "I hope your code reads better than your prose:-)
16:41:19 <ehird> You ripped-off my name, asshole. LoseThos. http://www.losethos.com"
16:41:28 <ehird> i wonder how he ripped off his name
16:41:46 <ehird> "You just sound a little stilted. Nice vocabulary, but tone-down the arrogance.
16:41:46 <ehird> I can read fancy words. God makes riddles when he talks to me.
16:41:47 <ehird> [another god speak thing]
16:41:47 <ehird> Your writing sounds like a rant of a person more crazy than I am."
16:42:06 <ehird> The juxtaposition of "END displacing large servants" and "Your writing sounds like a rant of a person more crazy than I am." is hilarious.
16:42:28 <oerjan> ehird: some people's motivations seem just destined to remain riddles
16:42:50 <ehird> ridiculously insane
16:42:58 <ehird> got worse though, he was less crazy beforehand, slightly
16:42:59 <pikhq> I still love his theory that "finished programs don't need memory protection, because they don't malfunction".
16:43:16 <ehird> if he keeps at this, uh
16:43:17 <okloput> doesn't seem like that's what his theory is
16:43:24 <ehird> I really think he needs serious psychiatric help
16:43:29 <pikhq> okloput: It's one of many theories he has.
16:43:39 <oerjan> ehird: there is no such thing as "just insane". insane just means anyone falling outside the very narrow region known as "normal", afaiac
16:43:51 <okloput> pikhq: seems like he's more saying no protection is fun for certain types of hacking
16:44:04 <ehird> okloput: really, don't try and justify the guy, it might seem ok on the surface
16:44:08 <ehird> but if you really read about it you'll go insane
16:44:09 <pikhq> "Finished programs don't need memory protection, because they don't malfunction."
16:44:17 <ehird> oerjan: colloquial language in your face
16:44:23 <ehird> pikhq: that's true actually
16:44:27 <ehird> pikhq: it's just that there's no finished program
16:44:29 <ehird> except maybe hello world
16:44:52 <pikhq> And maybe junk that's been formally verified.
16:45:07 <pikhq> ... But you really don't design your OS assuming that, now do you?
16:45:07 <ehird> pikhq: errors in proof, errors in proof system
16:45:11 <ehird> errors in what you're proving
16:46:15 * ehird realises that for C strings, regexp ^ can be represented as [^\0]
16:47:13 <oerjan> ehird: er, you mean . ?
16:47:31 <ehird> ^ can be represented as [^\0](backtrack)
16:47:50 <ehird> (don't advance [^\0])
16:48:03 <oerjan> there is no \0 at the start
16:48:10 <ehird> uhh yes that's the point
16:48:11 <oerjan> $ = [\0] though i guess
16:48:24 <ehird> ^ does have to be special cased
16:48:28 <ehird> since it's not enforcing not-end
16:48:31 <ehird> it's enforcing start
16:49:18 <okloput> take a glio, put it in your pocket
16:49:25 <oerjan> you could use a reverse negative lookahead, i forget the syntax
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16:55:27 <ehird> http://pastie.org/575607.txt?key=jkkr84jcur9wbhf8clemq ;; I think this is an optimal compilation of the regexp (save tricks like reading multiple bytes at a time etc)
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16:55:54 <ehird> hmm that has a redundant break
16:56:07 <ehird> the break can be omitted there
16:56:53 <ehird> though probably the nfa stuff beats it
16:58:37 <ais523> you have a regex to C compiler?
16:58:51 <ehird> no, i'm just toying with writing one for the hell of it
16:58:58 <ehird> but only actually regular regexs
16:59:11 <ehird> for (a) simplicity, (b) performance
16:59:21 <ehird> (Waiter, you got an exponential search in my matcher.)
16:59:35 <ais523> apparently Perl compiles regexes behind the scenes, when they're encountered
16:59:41 <ais523> although they have a /o option to only compile once
16:59:45 <ehird> ais523: its algorithm is terrible, though
16:59:47 <ehird> http://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html
16:59:54 <ehird> also note that the first graph is in second
16:59:58 <ehird> the second is in microseconds
17:00:41 * ehird rewrites his compilation as a state machine
17:00:48 <ais523> it's well-known that there are certain classes of regexen that Perl handles badly, although they tend to be not too hard to avoid
17:00:56 <ais523> a better algorithm seems like a good idea
17:01:08 <ais523> although the existing algorithm should be available as an option, for golfing
17:01:16 <ehird> ais523: the paper covers this
17:01:22 <ehird> you can just check if there's a backreference in the regexp
17:01:27 <ehird> and use the exponential algorithm then
17:01:40 <ehird> no reason to make something an option that can be trivially automatic
17:02:24 <ais523> I was thinking of code like 'aaaa' =~ /a?a?a?a?(?{print "Hello, world!\n"})aaaa/
17:02:34 <ais523> but clearly, it would detect the coderef there and fall back
17:02:42 <ehird> ais523: that stuff can be done with an NFA, prolly
17:02:50 <ehird> as long as the actual expression is regular
17:03:01 <ais523> yes, but it's semantically incorrect to optimize that
17:03:10 <ais523> if you don't print hello world 16 times, you're violating perl's spec
17:03:11 <ehird> it's not an optimisation
17:03:13 <ehird> it's just a compilation
17:03:23 <ehird> ais523: it doesn't... constant fold or whatever
17:03:23 <ais523> so you have to be exponential in expressions like that one
17:03:34 <ehird> ais523: i don't expect perl would actually adopt it
17:03:41 <ehird> since it exposes the implementation so much like in that case
17:03:53 <ais523> also, note that speed of compilation is often more important than speed of execution
17:04:00 <ehird> the compilation is fast
17:04:01 <ais523> because regexes are compiled every time they're encountered
17:04:57 <okloput> ais523: why is that aaaa thing exponential?
17:05:12 <ehird> cuz perl is stupid
17:05:15 <oerjan> ais523: i would assume that applies only to regexes that contain interpolated variables or such
17:05:38 <ais523> oerjan: you'd think so, but Perl's really stupid at that, you have to write /o to say "I'm not using an interpolated variable"
17:05:46 <okloput> (yes a)(not a) is different from (not a)(yes a), so there are 2^(amount of a's) possibilities
17:05:48 <ais523> in theory, at least; in practice they probably use the as-if rule
17:06:05 <ais523> okloput: yes, that's it
17:06:23 <ais523> and IIRC the code-block could even be able to tell which sort of match it was, in a more complicated regex
17:06:25 <oerjan> ais523: huh? i thought /o was for when you _are_ using an interpolated variable but don't want the regex to change after the first use
17:06:41 <ais523> how often does that happen, though?
17:07:00 <oerjan> ais523: if the variable is not actually changed, that could be common
17:07:02 <nornalbion> IIRC perl caches regexes that don't have interpolated variables by default
17:07:17 <nornalbion> But if they do have interpolated variables you have to use /o manually
17:07:58 <ehird> http://pastie.org/575625.txt?key=qetirlttqkzlvzaqnllg
17:08:05 <ehird> the regexp as an FSM
17:08:13 <ehird> the string is touched by his noodly appendage
17:08:19 * ehird rewrites it with gotos
17:08:27 <ehird> (↑ This is considered a socially unacceptable thing to say.)
17:10:41 <ehird> http://pastie.org/575632.txt?key=maxdtnu8lhtptvmdwqwkfq
17:10:45 <ehird> And this is surely optimal.
17:10:50 <ehird> er, drop the case 4: line
17:11:03 <ehird> of course, this doesn't gather the groups
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17:14:29 <ehird> movzbl(%eax), %eax
17:14:35 <ehird> that's some pretty darn optimal code
17:15:04 <ehird> wow, it gets even better with -O3
17:15:12 <ehird> movzbl(%eax), %edx
17:15:20 <ais523> ehird: that's an interesting paper, it's mirroring what happened in parser development
17:15:26 <ehird> ais523: do you know of a good asm→C decompiler?
17:15:31 <ehird> I wanna see what the heck it compiles my state machine to
17:15:43 <ehird> whatever it is, it's pretty amazing
17:16:06 <ehird> http://pastie.org/575640.txt?key=fdsiy0eymjwr3etpfdhx7g
17:16:57 * ehird constructs a multi-MB string to test it with
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17:22:20 <Deewiant> ehird: http://www.pastie.org/private/zsluf1vbdaqlnpfzeeftq
17:22:37 <Deewiant> Decompilation of that asm, modulo any errors I made
17:22:56 <ehird> bahaha, it rolled up the bbb check!
17:22:58 <Deewiant> It could be optimized in one place
17:23:02 <ehird> that's just perversely great
17:23:13 <Deewiant> Unless it did what it did for alignment reasons
17:23:26 <ehird> who cares? it did it
17:23:35 <Deewiant> Namely, that 'ret = 1' in l6 (movl $1, %eax)
17:23:50 <Deewiant> Which is pointless if you jump to l8 immediately afterward
17:24:23 <ehird> anyway, even the plain state machine would be fast enough
17:24:29 <Deewiant> I actually missed that jump there: http://www.pastie.org/private/uqvjwjnkm1w0njxdnoqyfw
17:24:46 <ehird> that is odd indeed
17:25:34 <Deewiant> Alternatively, it's doing it there to have some space between the test and the jump
17:25:48 <Deewiant> Which might make the pipeline happier or something
17:26:27 <ehird> I didn't specify -march
17:27:10 <Deewiant> ehird: Your C seems to have a floating 'case 4:'
17:27:18 <ehird> Read the next lines kthx
17:27:51 <ehird> http://pastie.org/575666.txt?key=orndvz7i6izopps9u6gy6q
17:27:51 <Deewiant> I actually did, I just completely ignored them thereafter
17:28:02 <ehird> it just rearranges a bit and aligns
17:28:49 <pikhq> Yeah, that's the expected behavior of -O0 -march.
17:29:47 <Deewiant> ehird: Use cfunge's compilation flags and see what happens
17:30:04 <ehird> Deewiant: give me them and I'll use them; I think actually thinking about them to copy them in would kill m
17:30:06 <Deewiant> (A good reference for when you want excessive optimization)
17:30:13 <ehird> anyway, what's the simplest way to get time() except w/ msec
17:30:19 <ehird> there seems to be no easy function
17:30:24 <ehird> (measuring how long it takes to match 100mb str)
17:30:29 <pikhq> ehird: I could've sworn that GCC compiled it into a jump table.
17:30:45 <pikhq> Then I'm just blathering.
17:30:51 <ehird> it has comparisons
17:30:54 <ehird> but that's the best way to do it
17:33:13 <Deewiant> Hey, he doesn't appear to use them any more, just a bunch of -W
17:33:35 <ehird> Deewiant: Haha, unlikely.
17:33:50 <ehird> Maybe you're in the development subbranchtree or something.
17:35:11 <Deewiant> LLVM might give something different if you care enough
17:35:14 <ehird> I conclude that time() sux because it doesn't have a brother that does milliseconds unpainfully.
17:35:32 <ehird> Deewiant: I'm kind of unmotivated to compile clang
17:35:57 <ais523> clang seems to compile pretty easily
17:36:00 <ais523> the makefile worked for me
17:36:21 <ehird> ais523: you have to do it in-tree with llvm
17:36:38 <ehird> well, it didn't work for me, so I don't care
17:41:48 <ehird> "We conclude that it is certainly fine to use a 160-bit hash function like SHA1 or RIPEMD-160 with compare-by-hash. The chances of an accidental collision is about 2^-160. This is unimaginably small. You are roughly 2^90 times more likely to win a U.S. state lottery and be struck by lightning simultaneously than you are to encounter this type of error in your file system."
17:43:06 <ehird> (But, however, from our own acooke:
17:43:08 <ehird> andrew cooke on April 14, 2008 5:50 PM
17:43:08 <ehird> the 2^-160 is a bit misleading. as the first paper points out (search for "birthday") you're going to start getting collisions when you have around 2^80 blocks. that's still a lot of blocks, but *significantly* less than the 2^160 you might infer from what you wrote.)
17:43:15 <ehird> (Solution: Use a bigger hash.)
17:47:53 <ehird> I think, following careful consideration
17:47:55 <ehird> that my program has a bug.
17:49:54 <ehird> (pikhq: Deewiant: ais523:) It appears that my program can match a 1gb string in less than a second.
17:50:12 <ais523> but, against which regex
17:50:21 <Deewiant> Or it can deduce a non-match due to the first char? ;-)
17:50:35 <ehird> Deewiant: No, the string is carefully constructed to match.
17:50:42 <ehird> ais523: ^a*(bbb)*$, hand-compiled. Admittedly, not the most complex thing, HOWEVER
17:50:51 <ehird> there isn't really any more complex operation in regular expressions
17:50:59 <ehird> and there's no penalty for a long regex in my system
17:51:05 <ehird> so it's about as fast as any
17:51:10 <ehird> ais523: nope, not more expensive
17:51:15 <ehird> I already have that, essentially
17:51:19 <ehird> in my handling of (bbb)
17:51:19 <ais523> imagine (a|aaaaa)(aaaaaaa*)(aaa)?
17:51:39 <ehird> ais523: http://pastie.org/575632.txt?key=maxdtnu8lhtptvmdwqwkfq (ignore the case 4:) line
17:51:48 <ehird> As you can see from how it handles (bbb), we already do such skipping.
17:52:03 <ehird> Just s/return 0/goto sN/
17:53:55 <ehird> Anyway, dammit, if I have this code right, a JIGGABYTE.
17:54:04 <ehird> The memory usage matches up, so I don't think I'm overflowing any counters or anything.
17:54:16 <ehird> And I assert it, so it definitely gets to a return 1.
17:54:24 <ehird> And my other tests work, and it doesn't look buggy.
17:55:37 <ehird> I'd test a bigger string but I don't have the ram.
17:55:43 <ehird> Hey fizzie! Get that cluster up here :P
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17:56:53 <ais523> ehird: incidentally, I think b?(bbb)* is more complex than a*(bbb)*
17:57:06 <ais523> because in the second there, there isn't any ambiguity about how to match any given string, in the first, there is
17:57:18 <Deewiant> ehird: Gimme a test proggy, I have about 7 GB available
17:57:42 <ehird> Deewiant: I'll cook something up.
17:58:23 <ehird> 'm afraid that my time counting code didn't work, so you'll just have to clockball how long it takes after printing "Go!".
17:58:26 <ehird> Should only be a second or two.
17:59:09 <ehird> Deewiant: write me the code to measure how long it took in ms and I'll be happy to pop it in :P
17:59:44 <Deewiant> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=966499
18:00:05 <ehird> regex7gb.c:53: warning: integer constant is too large for ‘long’ type
18:00:37 <Deewiant> It's the Ubuntu forums, whaddya expect :-P
18:01:33 <ehird> Argh, even dividing by ten it's too big :P
18:01:54 <ehird> i need a new approach
18:02:00 <ehird> Deewiant: I'm talking about my string-builder
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18:02:19 <ehird> it was complaining about another part of code
18:02:30 <ehird> char *s = malloc(7516192768), *t = s; in particular
18:02:43 <ehird> hmm there's not actually a way to do that is there
18:02:55 <ehird> i don't think malloc takes a long long
18:03:05 <Deewiant> Which will be big enough on my machine
18:04:20 <ehird> Snow Leopard will be 64-bit. >:(
18:04:26 <ehird> Deewiant: http://pastie.org/575711.txt?key=tymvrwsyvuypohm5h5mra; I didn't add the timer cause I'm lazy
18:04:31 <ehird> and it'll only take a few secs after go
18:04:47 <Deewiant> Like I'm going to bother to get an even semiaccurate measurement
18:05:39 <ehird> "These kinds of discussions often use Turing machines, but these days not many people are comfortable with Turing machines, so I'm going to use Scheme. [؟]"
18:07:19 <Deewiant> It pushed some things into swap though, let's try again
18:07:43 <Deewiant> Yeah, more like 4.2 seconds on average
18:07:49 <ehird> Deewiant: Irrelevant
18:07:52 <ehird> Most of that is building the string
18:07:57 <ehird> You have to count after "Go!"
18:08:19 <ehird> Well, that's very good if you ask me.
18:08:40 <Deewiant> Built with -O3 -march=native on GCC 4.4.1
18:08:41 <ehird> Not that anyone's going to be matching 7gb strings, but... it's nice to be able to.
18:08:56 <ehird> Deewiant: Pfft, you didn't even unroll loops! :-P
18:09:14 <ehird> Deewiant: The string-building ones, duh!
18:09:34 <ehird> There should be an -O4 that enables every safe optimisation, and -O5 that enables every optimisation.
18:10:03 <Deewiant> Some optimizations counter each other's work, I think
18:10:16 <Deewiant> And some are of course just parameters you can tune
18:10:50 <ehird> just try every permutation and pick the best
18:10:58 <ehird> pick the best by timing it by fuzz testing it
18:11:12 <ehird> (if it takes input)
18:11:36 <Deewiant> So what you actually want is -Ojustloopforever
18:11:53 <ehird> Do them all in parallel of course
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18:12:17 <Deewiant> So what you actually want is -Ojustloopforeveronallavailablecores
18:13:39 <ehird> Deewiant: For some definition of "forever"?
18:14:29 <Deewiant> There's probably around 100 optimization options
18:14:39 <Deewiant> So you have 93326215443944152681699238856266700490715968264381621468592963895217599993229915608941463976156518286253697920827223758251185210916864000000000000000000000000 permutations
18:14:58 <Deewiant> So yeah, that definition of "forever"
18:15:41 <Deewiant> Except that I guess we're not talking about the order in which they're applied
18:16:00 <ehird> You could have it update the executable to the fastest as it goes.
18:16:01 <Deewiant> But rather, whether each one is applied or not
18:16:12 <Deewiant> ehird: It still has to try every one
18:16:27 <ehird> 1267650600228229401496703205376
18:16:38 <ehird> Deewiant: yes, but you can use it as you go
18:16:51 <ehird> anyway, let's assume we have 128 cores; a Nehalem-EX system will be able to do that and we are after all in the future
18:17:00 <ehird> each of these can run two threads
18:17:18 <ehird> → 4951760157141521099596496896
18:17:30 <ehird> let us assume that our program takes 1ms to execute
18:18:07 <ehird> it will only take 1.56915162 x 10^14 millenia
18:18:25 <ehird> and I can't think of a bigger unit than millenia.
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18:19:15 <Pthing> okay then let aeon := 1 billion years
18:19:47 <ehird> Deewiant: 156915162000000000 years isn't bad
18:19:48 <Pthing> who the fuck uses anything else apart from dead people
18:20:06 <Deewiant> I guess I'm dead according to your definition
18:20:14 <ehird> no, you're just non-english
18:20:22 <Pthing> if you're not and think a billion is 10^12 you sure should be!
18:20:32 <ehird> nobody uses it that way in english
18:20:34 <ehird> not even the british
18:20:50 <ehird> well, don't, it's dangerous
18:21:16 <Deewiant> I don't use it in dangerous contexts
18:21:23 <Deewiant> Typically I just use milliard and people stare blankly
18:22:03 <Pthing> yes because that is dead people talk
18:22:18 <ehird> Pthing: Jolly good old bean.
18:22:22 <Pthing> you are grandpa moses' economist talking about grain exports in the bronze age
18:22:34 <Deewiant> I guess Canadians have it well since French uses the long scale
18:22:37 <okloput> 10^12 is the superior definition
18:22:46 <ehird> but it's not what is used
18:22:50 <ehird> also, 10^12 comes up less
18:22:56 <ehird> whereas 10^9 comes up more
18:22:56 <Pthing> for less = hardly ever
18:22:57 <okloput> well i don't give a shit, naturally
18:23:03 <ehird> but yeah billion is a bad name
18:23:10 <ehird> because it's not a billion like a million is.
18:23:11 <okloput> yeah who cares about real people
18:23:12 <Deewiant> Who cares whether it comes up more
18:23:24 <ehird> Deewiant: people who don't want to say "three thousand million"
18:23:26 <Deewiant> "10^9 is more common than 10^12 so let's call it billion instead of milliard"
18:23:39 <Deewiant> Just use milliard, much easier
18:23:43 <ehird> milliard + scratchy communication line = million
18:23:54 <Pthing> also it sounds even more french than million
18:24:22 <Deewiant> ehird: billion + scratchy communication line = million
18:24:32 <Deewiant> Much more so than milliard, IMO :-P
18:24:35 <ehird> Deewiant: if you can't pronounce things properly
18:24:57 <Deewiant> All you need to have is a flu and they sound the same
18:25:07 <ehird> So, Terry Pratchett says he's going to kill himself.
18:25:07 <Deewiant> In financial markets, yard (derived from milliard) is still often used instead of "billion" to avoid ambiguity between "million" and "billion". -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milliard
18:25:39 <Pthing> fuck the financial markets
18:26:15 <okloput> anyway who gives a shit what the idiots still using a 10-base number system use for shorthands
18:26:25 <Pthing> you could just use SI prefix + years
18:26:33 <ehird> okloput: what's your favourite base
18:26:54 <ehird> okloput: too verbose
18:26:58 <okloput> i don't really use numbers much
18:27:17 <okloput> ehird: there are well-known shorthands for writing base-2
18:27:39 <ais523> ehird: it's /also/ a shorthand for base 2
18:27:51 <ehird> okloput: because then you like base 16, not base 2!
18:28:03 <okloput> numbers are pretty useless anyway
18:28:08 <ehird> anyway base 3 is better
18:28:10 <ehird> because you have a middle
18:28:35 <ehird> or rather base 9 :P
18:28:39 <okloput> trinary has it's funny bones, yes.
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18:30:43 <ehird_> i hate computers and their disconnection
18:30:46 <ehird_> The Nonary system of notation is used by the fictional civilization, The Culture, found in Iain M. Banks' books.[citation needed]
18:31:49 <ehird_> happy 2672-08-07, anyway
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18:40:59 <ehird_> i wish there was a vm os
18:41:07 <ehird_> where all its resources are dedicated to running multiple vms at once
18:41:25 <ehird_> current ones sorta don't cut it because your vm is noticeably slower etc than your host
18:44:09 * ehird_ wonders why people write in pseudocode that's so much like real code
18:44:59 <pikhq> ehird_: A VM OS, you say?
18:45:09 <ehird_> it'd make trying OSes out so much nicer
18:45:14 <pikhq> Sounds like an IBM mainframe.
18:45:16 <ehird_> if you could say "dedicate all resources to this OS"
18:45:33 <ehird_> of course you'd have to insanely optimise the hardware layers
18:45:38 <ehird_> specifically, make them almost direct drivers
18:45:45 <ehird_> with everything else being optional
18:45:47 <ehird_> pikhq: on consumer hardware.
18:45:54 <ehird_> it's perfectly doable, just hard
18:45:57 <pikhq> ehird_: Fair enough.
18:46:00 <ehird_> easier than writing a full OS, though :P
18:46:02 <pikhq> Perfectly doable, just hard.
18:46:12 <pikhq> Basically, that would amount to a good hypervisor.
18:46:51 <ehird_> anyone know a super-simple png loader/writer lib for c
18:47:01 <ehird_> basically http://pngwriter.sourceforge.net/ for c
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19:00:28 <ais523> Microsoft just patented XML document formats...
19:00:35 <ais523> so they now seem to have a patent on XHTML and ODF, among other things
19:00:44 <ais523> hopefully, there's no way that particular patent will stand
19:00:51 <pikhq> Not ODF. Their patent specifies "in a single XML file".
19:00:59 <pikhq> ODF uses multiple.
19:01:08 <ais523> as in, they're both valid
19:02:00 <ehird_> only that part is patented, then
19:02:45 <ehird_> This summary is probably not complete or fully accurate, but it is an impressive collection of distributed computations, produced within or on top of the Arpanet. Much of this work, however, was done in the early 70s; one participant recently commented, “It's hard for me to believe that this all happened seven years ago.” Since that time, we have not witnessed the anticipated blossoming of many distributed applications using the long-haul capabilities of
19:12:59 <ehird_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYluZRwrw9w
19:15:02 <augur> it is not a euphemism for damnation
19:15:17 <augur> "what in the entire nation" ~ "what in the world"
19:15:51 <ehird_> so, if someone writes a rap in lojban I'll paypal them $0
19:16:03 <augur> not much of an incentive!
19:16:12 <ehird_> extra incentive: you'll be fucking awesome
19:16:27 <augur> youll be a guy who wrote a rap in lojban
19:17:06 <augur> more like opposite
19:17:55 <ehird_> augur you just hate lojban because you suck
19:18:13 <augur> no, im just aware of how much of a nerd you have to be to rap in lojban. :P
19:19:02 <ehird_> augur: nerd increases awesomeness
19:19:18 <augur> wrong kind of nerdery
19:19:47 <ehird_> augur: yeah well you're a fag
19:21:45 <ehird_> speaking of lojban, http://jbotcan.org/xamselsku/index.cgi?id=17
19:23:10 <ehird_> also http://jbotcan.org/xamselsku/index.cgi?id=61
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19:36:19 <augur> http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/115736/Sin-bins-for-worst-families
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20:25:49 <ehird> simple png reader/writer lib in c
20:26:14 <ehird> I mean http://pngwriter.sourceforge.net/ simple, not libpng "simple"
20:26:22 <ehird> pngwriter's in c++ though
20:27:08 <ais523> libpng has a simple API as well as the full one, IIRC
20:27:13 <ais523> although IME the full one's been more usefu
20:27:31 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en-gb&ei=FIB8SrGqOMOfjAf6laGIBw&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=libpng+simple+api&spell=1
20:27:33 <ehird> latent content: LIBPNG: Worst API, Ever
20:27:35 <AnMaster> ehird, simple as in "simple implementation, low level API" or simple as in "easy to use high level API"
20:27:46 <ehird> AnMaster: no contradiction.
20:27:59 <AnMaster> ehird, well not in theory indeed :P
20:28:03 <ehird> i already gave a relevant pointer. http://pngwriter.sourceforge.net/quickstart-en.php should remove all doubts as to which
20:28:44 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah, the functions filename→vector and vector*filename→void must be soo complex
20:29:06 <AnMaster> vector? png is bitmapped... what are you talking about
20:29:27 <ehird> I know you said Swedish mathematics education was piss-poor,
20:29:33 <ehird> but did they actually give you any classes at all?
20:32:02 <AnMaster> ehird, it is a hot day here, excuse me for not being up to speed. 25 C at 72% humidity in the evening... Was over 30 C during the day
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20:32:36 <ehird> So, the Swedes have resorted to complaining that it's over twenty degrees to justify their intelligence.
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20:32:56 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... That's hot?
20:32:59 <AnMaster> ehird, nah. Math education is poor too. Vectors were only introduced in late high school
20:32:59 <ehird> Somehow, my brain hasn't yet melted from hot temperatures.
20:33:07 <ehird> Vectors, late high school?
20:33:08 <pikhq> That's "finally, it fucking *cooled down*" temperature.
20:33:11 <ehird> EVEN THE US IS BETTER THAN THAT
20:33:15 <ehird> I think, at least.
20:33:19 <AnMaster> ehird, see. That is what I told you
20:33:20 <pikhq> ehird: ... No, no.
20:33:25 <pikhq> Vectors are covered in college.
20:33:35 <pikhq> With a *tiny* bit in high school.
20:33:54 <ehird> Do USians really not know calculus before they enter university?
20:33:57 <ehird> Like, even the good ones?
20:34:03 <pikhq> ehird: Only the good ones.
20:34:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, well, 72% atm says the thingy that measures it. Was close to 80% yesterday at least
20:34:13 <AnMaster> didn't check in the middle of the day
20:34:28 <pikhq> ehird: US public education is *staggeringly* bad.
20:34:48 <ehird> So much for Ivy League, huh.
20:34:54 <AnMaster> all Swedish education is like the US public education
20:34:59 <pikhq> You probably know more mathematics than the average US high school graduate.
20:35:00 <ehird> Ivy Ihopeyouknowcalculusleague.
20:35:12 <okloput> we have vectors in high school as well
20:35:13 <ehird> Why did I attach that to league and not ivy?
20:35:15 <pikhq> The US at least makes up for it by having decent to good post-secondary education.
20:35:15 <ehird> WE WILL NEVER KNOW
20:35:19 <AnMaster> since private education only recently started to grow from some tiny fraction of a percent
20:35:26 <okloput> pikhq: Vectors are covered in college. <<< xD
20:36:04 <pikhq> okloput: In precalc (an optional course for HS students).
20:36:08 <AnMaster> well, there wasn't a *lot* about vectors in high school in fact.
20:36:28 <okloput> not that it matters, no one learns anything in high school anyway they can't learn in about 5 hours of lectures in uni.
20:36:46 <pikhq> I learned plenty *in* high school.
20:36:49 <AnMaster> okloput, that is probably true
20:36:52 <pikhq> Just... Not *from* high school.
20:37:16 <ehird> I can safely say that from middle school onwards, the school education in this country teaches you precisely and exactly zip.
20:37:18 <AnMaster> pikhq, private education? Or a joke about other stuff?
20:37:23 <ehird> ...until university, at least
20:37:35 <ehird> AnMaster: He's talking about pornography, duh.
20:37:39 <pikhq> AnMaster: I'm autodidactic.
20:37:42 <ehird> (Note: He's not, actually.)
20:37:45 <AnMaster> ehird, yes that is what I meant with "other stuff"
20:37:52 <pikhq> ehird: Which is an improvement on the US. You stop learning in about elementary.
20:38:01 <ehird> hmm, he's actually talking about his ability to use a pretentious word to mean "I read Wikipedia"
20:38:11 <ehird> Autodidactic. I read Wikipedia. The choice is clear.
20:38:24 <pikhq> ehird: I had the same tendency to self-teach things before Wikipedia existed.
20:38:33 <pikhq> I just read a lot.
20:38:45 <AnMaster> same with me for programming at least. And some of the math.
20:38:47 <ehird> Wikipedia used to be more distributed and less accurate /shrug
20:39:28 <AnMaster> hah :P I meant learning by reading, not wikipedia specifically
20:40:16 <ehird> I want to do some hivemind applications; e.g. answering questions by collating the web and IRC etc.
20:40:37 <ehird> (I'd better do it before someone adds another fact to Cyc!)
20:42:39 <pikhq> ehird: The average USian reads about as well as a US 4th grade student.
20:43:09 <pikhq> Which is to say, they can't even read a novel of moderate length.
20:43:39 <pikhq> About 80% of Americans did not read a single book last year.
20:44:03 <okloput> well books can be kinda annoying
20:44:28 <ehird> okay you know what
20:44:41 <ehird> let's gather up all the cool people in the US — should take a few hours —
20:44:42 <pikhq> ehird: My thoughts exactly.
20:44:47 -!- okloput has changed nick to oklopol.
20:44:53 <ehird> and shoot it into orbit
20:44:56 <ehird> oxygen not required
20:44:59 <pikhq> ehird: So, most Americans on Freenode, friends of theirs?
20:45:03 <ehird> send it off to pluto
20:45:14 <ehird> pikhq: dunno there are plenty of cool people who abstain from freenode for good reasons
20:45:31 <ehird> (for example, freenode's founder and administration are uh, questionable)
20:45:36 <oklopol> so you want to kill all the cool people in usa
20:45:42 <ehird> add OFTC and find a way to include the non-programmers
20:45:49 <pikhq> ehird: That's why I said "and friends of theirs".
20:45:59 <AnMaster> <pikhq> About 80% of Americans did not read a single book last year. <-- I suspect things are close to as bad in Sweden, That is from personal experience talking to people; I don't have actual numbers handy.
20:46:04 <ehird> cuz i'm sure that way you'll get a bunch of idiots
20:46:09 <pikhq> ehird: Within reason.
20:46:10 <ehird> AnMaster: no, that's almost certainly untrue
20:46:14 <oklopol> yeah take the whole closure
20:46:18 <ehird> sweden is ranked among the top places to live etc
20:46:40 <pikhq> ehird: Probably you need a function "coolPerson :: Person -> Bool"
20:46:50 <ehird> pikhq: x -> Bool, aka Set x
20:46:56 <ehird> so that's not terribly helpful
20:47:25 <nornalbion> Person would have to be a typeclass...
20:47:27 <AnMaster> ehird, http://www.scb.se/statistik/LE/LE0101/1976I02/LE0101_1976I02_BR_06_LE103SA0401.pdf seems to indicate it was 30% for men in 1999
20:47:36 <ehird> nornalbion: really?
20:47:49 <nornalbion> ehird: I don't think it's a builtin in Haskell, somehow...
20:47:57 <ehird> nornalbion: type Foo = ...
20:48:10 <ehird> AnMaster: well we all know men just want sex and women are gentle and emotional
20:48:20 <nornalbion> Clearly I shouldn't talk about Haskell because I don't know much :P
20:48:38 <ehird> typeclasses have existing types as instances anyway
20:48:41 <ehird> so that wouldn't help
20:48:42 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... That's more than 20% of people reading books.
20:48:57 <ehird> anyway nornalbion where did you come from anyway
20:48:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah yes. you said *who didn't read*
20:49:21 <ehird> nornalbion: don't recall seeing you in sine, k
20:49:24 <AnMaster> according to that pdf traditional dance is one of the most unpopular activities in Sweden
20:49:32 <ehird> traditional dance is pretty suck
20:49:44 <pikhq> Adherents of it include: Stallman.
20:50:00 <pikhq> ... I do *not* want to see fat man dancing, thank you.
20:50:01 <AnMaster> ehird, well, for women snowboard/windsurfing is even less popular (why combine those two!? makes no sense to me!)
20:50:13 <ehird> pikhq: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pube5Aynsls
20:51:11 <ehird> not exactly traditional dance :P
20:51:16 <pikhq> The Census bureau defines literacy as "being able to read and write to any extent"...
20:51:19 <AnMaster> traditional dance... wait... bad translation. Seems it is called "folk dance" says interwiki links
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20:51:55 <ehird> AnMaster: also combined snowboarding/windsurfing sounds amazing.
20:51:56 <pikhq> Including "a small handful of familiar words"...
20:52:14 <pikhq> God. So much suck.
20:52:15 <ehird> silly people and their silly names
20:52:17 <nornalbion> ehird: I tried to show you in sine, then noticed you weren't in it. Woops :\/
20:52:52 <ehird> dunno i think i asked about something trivial and he got all pissy at me
20:54:06 <pikhq> ... Only 13% of the US population is able to compare viewpoints in two editorials; interpret a table about blood pressure, age, and physical activities; or compare and compute the cost per ounce of common food items.
20:54:25 <AnMaster> hm a question ehird... not sure if you know about this, but... When a laptop is suspended the fans turn off. Could that have any bad effects if the fans were working at full speed just before suspending?
20:54:47 * ehird attempts to rewrite the rest of Baby Got Back, but finds that "when a coder walks in with an itty bitty instruction set" doesn't fit
20:54:48 <AnMaster> hm guess no need for cooling once cpu turns off
20:55:06 <ais523> it shouldn't, although it isn't cooling, the CPU won't get any hotter because it isn't running
20:55:07 <ehird> guess I could use "lang"
20:55:21 <pikhq> ehird: Listen to Jonathan Coulton singing it for inspiration.
20:55:23 <AnMaster> ais523, true. But it won't cool down as fast
20:55:55 <AnMaster> compared to suddenly reduced workload I mean with fans still running for a few seconds
20:56:02 <ehird> AnMaster: i don't think you understand how cooling works
20:56:15 <ehird> it's not producing heat, so it'll just dissipate into the air
20:57:04 <ehird> hmm an issue with Baby Got Back is that it's rather biased towards the object being large
20:57:11 <ehird> whereas we stereotypically go the opposite way
20:57:27 <AnMaster> ehird, true. But question is how fast it will cool down. Considering how hot the air becomes where it exits... I'm not positive but it feels like it could melt stuff standing too close, so putting the laptop in a backpack directly after... hrrm
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20:59:10 <AnMaster> if CPU is around 60 C, then the air exiting would be a bit lower. Not sure how much but let me get a thermometer and put full load on both cores.. brb
20:59:21 <ehird> AnMaster. It is not going to melt your backpack.
20:59:33 <ehird> Your CPU will also not die after suspension because that's not how cooling works.
20:59:48 <ehird> AnMaster: just buy a laptop pad if you're worried anyway
20:59:50 <AnMaster> ehird, well that is true. I realised that after I asked
20:59:55 <ais523> AnMaster: it won't /warm up/ after shutting down, though
21:00:09 <ais523> and so if it would have melted after turning it off, it would have melted beforehand
21:00:19 <AnMaster> ais523, don't be too sure. My old first model ibook sometimes failed to shut down the cpu when you put it to sleep
21:00:27 <ehird> I mean using a non-netbook laptop without a cooling pad is asking for trouble
21:00:32 <AnMaster> as in, it crashed right after turning off fan and right before turning off cpu
21:00:46 <ehird> overheating of both your components and uh, making you infertile
21:00:58 <AnMaster> ehird, I use it on a table anyway
21:01:06 <ehird> it'll still overheat
21:01:13 <ehird> most companies strongly recommend you use a laptop pad
21:01:34 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't see anything about that in the manual from lenovo though
21:01:54 <Deewiant> Of course they do, so that they can sell you one
21:02:00 <ehird> in the safety stuff, say
21:02:03 <AnMaster> btw, it seems it is quite easy to replace many parts of it. With warranty left I mean. Unlike those macs I have seen ;P
21:02:11 <oklopol> adoption is a simpler alternative to procuring a laptop pad
21:02:16 <ehird> most laptop companies don't sell laptop pads
21:02:22 <ehird> oklopol: that doesn't solve it turning off because it overheated
21:02:23 <AnMaster> you can even easily replace harddisk by just following three easy steps in the manual :P
21:02:41 <Deewiant> Then they have some kind of deal with a company who does, same difference
21:02:47 <ehird> Deewiant: not IME, no.
21:02:52 <ehird> AnMaster: that's funny, because with a mbp you just screw open the case, take it out and put a new one in
21:03:07 <AnMaster> ehird, well, you only need one screw here.
21:03:27 <ehird> That's good; I can replace the laptop every time I sit it down easily.
21:03:35 <ehird> I've always wanted to do that.
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21:04:38 <AnMaster> ehird, does macbook pros have PC-card?
21:04:46 <ehird> the expresscard thing?
21:04:47 <AnMaster> I'm fairly certain plain macbooks doesn't
21:04:59 <AnMaster> ehird, well similar thingy. Possibly not exactly the same
21:05:33 <ehird> 21:04] AnMaster: ehird, does macbook pros have PC-card?
21:05:57 <ehird> if anyone presents me with a gui irc client for os x that lets me copy lines without fucking the formatting up, I will love them forever
21:06:20 <AnMaster> ehird, I was writing "mac book pro" first and added the s afterwards, forgot to change the "does" then
21:06:40 <ehird> funny, because apple's marketing refer to them as singular
21:06:43 <AnMaster> macbooks pro? macbooks pros? macbook pros?
21:07:01 <ehird> MacBook Pros, or, if you're apple, awkawrd sentences like "It makes MacBook Air incredibly light,"
21:07:02 <AnMaster> ehird, I think I just demonstrated the reason :P
21:07:12 <ehird> As we all know, they only sell one unit of every model.
21:07:16 <ehird> First come, first served!
21:07:36 <ehird> They are very clear.
21:07:36 <AnMaster> <ehird> First come, only served!
21:07:47 <ehird> My statement is still correct.
21:08:39 <AnMaster> ehird, btw why would only the 17" model have express card?
21:08:56 <AnMaster> I mean, lenovo managed to fit *two* slots in this 15.4" model
21:09:29 <ehird> because they did a study, found out almost everyone doesn't use it, find out that those who do just put in an SD card reader, replaced it with an SD card slot. Left it in the 17" model for the business/uber-pro people that really, really need it.
21:09:37 <ehird> AnMaster: that would not work because the macbook pro is a lot thinner
21:10:03 <ehird> 0.95" thick, including closed display
21:10:09 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, this has an sd reader too
21:10:23 <AnMaster> combined SD/MemoryStick/a/few/other/ones
21:10:35 <AnMaster> sadly not the single format I actually use. which is CF
21:11:14 <ehird> incidentally, thing that i learned recently:
21:11:20 <ehird> movies aren't edited uncompressed or losslessly
21:12:15 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed, they are usually scanned from analogue master
21:12:22 <ehird> no, no they're not
21:12:47 <AnMaster> ehird, it was ages ago I read about professional movie editing
21:12:59 <ehird> Middle Ages thereabouts, I assume.
21:13:11 <AnMaster> ehird, 2002? 2003? Something like that
21:14:09 <ehird> so, the lojbanic term for MOO is "computerized imaginary universe"
21:14:13 <ehird> well, translates as
21:15:04 <ehird> that's just the name for _the_ lojban moo
21:15:15 <AnMaster> then it was like: low quality scan from master, *edit and save the edits*, scan high quality, auto apply the edits (would be too slow to work at the high quality when actually editing, yeah it was a while ago), reprint to analogue film "master" which is then used to create the film reels sent to the cinemas
21:15:37 <ehird> I was referring to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ProRes_422
21:15:51 <ehird> AnMaster: ..........no?
21:16:27 <AnMaster> well, what do you mean about that "moo" then
21:16:52 <ehird> Moo is the noise cows make.
21:16:55 <AnMaster> do you mean the word "moo" is Lojban for "computerized imaginary universe"
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21:17:21 <ehird> It's a joke about how lojban uses short words to represent useless, abstract concepts.
21:17:52 <AnMaster> I'm not familiar enough with lojban to know that it did that
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21:18:08 <ehird> And that was a joke about the word "gullible" not being in the dictionary.
21:18:43 <ehird> Since you didn't get it, let me repeat:
21:18:49 <ehird> I was bullshitting.
21:19:00 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I understand that now
21:19:27 <AnMaster> but does it really use short words for useless (in everyday context) concepts?
21:19:48 <ehird> Yes, and I'm an elephant that can fly.
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21:28:15 <ehird> anyway, with these hydraulic stilts
21:28:15 <ehird> you could get really long trousers
21:28:15 <ehird> and get into the guiness book of records
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23:40:28 <mycroftiv> i think quite a few people are actually working on integrating plan9 better with the functional paradigm, since the functional approach is very strong in network/signal processing/messaging type scenarios that are generally a good match for plan9 architecturally
23:40:31 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, btw. Once plan9 supports modern hardware better I might actually consider switching. Oh and I guess once more software is ported to it as well..
23:41:00 <AnMaster> basically when it works just as out of box on my new thinkpad as ubuntu did. Which I realise is not a reasonable goal at all.
23:41:15 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: my opinion is that the right way to make use of plan9 is not at all to consider 'switching' - but rather to integrate whatever plan9 tools and tech is useful to you, via one of several methods
23:41:27 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, I do have plan9port installed
23:41:32 <mycroftiv> (which might range from an old box acting as a plan9 server, to using plan9port, to using a virtual machine, etc)
23:42:32 <AnMaster> I use it sometimes. But really I'm way more used to (gnu) emacs than sam or acme
23:42:33 <mycroftiv> that is one way to access some of the tools, if you like them - i also think having a small qemu VM running as a headless cpu server is also a very nice and resource efficient way of adding plan9 stuff to your toolset
23:44:08 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, does erlang/otp run on plan9... I don't remember that being supported. And I tend to use my old headless computers as parts of a distributed erlang network. Which means I can select between solaris, freebsd and linux really
23:44:45 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, otherwise I would probably run it natively already on them
23:44:45 <mycroftiv> let me do a quick scan of contrib and see if i see anything erlang-related - not sure if someone has ported stuff or not
23:45:21 <mycroftiv> nope, looks like if any erlang stuff has been done, its not on sources server at least
23:45:30 <AnMaster> it would be rather non-trivial I suspect.
23:45:42 <AnMaster> certainly, it isn't something I would consider doing.
23:45:51 <AnMaster> what with the JIT stuff and such
23:46:22 <AnMaster> well, not JIT, more like AOT. Still way over my head.
23:46:37 <AnMaster> I guess the basic interpreted bit, maybe.
23:48:23 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, anyway. I would really want to use the network fs thingy, but I never figured out where to start with it under linux... So I ended up using nfs over the lan
23:48:51 <AnMaster> yes I realize it can do much more than just files.
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23:49:10 <AnMaster> there is the kernel option thingy and that is all
23:49:20 <mycroftiv> well, honestly, the 9p stuff in linux is kind of a hassle, in my experience - i use plan9port but mostly for venti and some other stuff
23:50:15 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, since I have modern hardware and I use 3D graphics quite a bit (and want reasonable frame rates) I don't expect I will run anything but linux as the "base" OS during the next few years
23:50:48 <ehird> erlang sorta sucks
23:51:03 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: im not expecting to change away from linux controlling most of my hardware either, but that doesnt interfere with my use of plan9 at all
23:51:48 <AnMaster> ehird, that is your opinion. IME all non-trivial programming languages has both good and bad bits. Every non-trivial language has some quirk.
23:52:10 <ehird> god, I can't state one opinion without AnMaster turning into plato or whatever mentioning "OH, THAT'S YOUR OPINION"
23:52:12 <AnMaster> I'm pretty sure I heard you mention some in haskell too ehird.
23:52:20 <ehird> no, it's an objective fact woven into the universe that erlang sucks!!!
23:52:27 <ehird> "ERLANG SUCKS" was encoded in the big bang
23:52:46 <ehird> in fact the LHC has proved that it is a universal truth that erlang sucks
23:53:01 <AnMaster> ehird, why do you never give up...
23:53:12 <oklopol> ehird: are you trying to yank my chains there......??
23:53:16 <ehird> the point <-------------> anmaster's head
23:53:30 <oklopol> why would you tell such an outrageous lie
23:53:35 <ehird> Slereah_: doesn't matter, i used the sucking of erlang to see into the future
23:53:47 <oklopol> i mean god, someone tell me what time it id
23:53:48 <ehird> AnMaster: to spell it out for you
23:53:51 <ehird> every time i say an opinion
23:53:53 <Slereah_> But if you can see the future with it, that doesn't suck
23:53:54 <ehird> you go "THAT'S YOUR OPINION"
23:53:58 <ehird> like you're making some epic point
23:53:59 <Slereah_> How do you resolve that paradox?
23:54:02 <ehird> of course it's my damn opinion, I SAID IT
23:54:10 <oklopol> Slereah_: it sucks as a programming language
23:54:12 <mycroftiv> ehird: really, isnt it just YOUR OPINION that every time you say an opinion, he says that?
23:54:16 <ehird> oh fuck you, shall i talk in objective predicates all the time?
23:54:23 <ehird> HEY BY EVERY TIME MAYBE I JUST MEAN REALLY OFTEN
23:54:34 <ehird> human communication being subjective and imprecise. who'da thunk it!
23:55:09 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't lojban supposed to "fix" that?
23:55:20 <ehird> now you're surely trolling
23:55:23 <mycroftiv> i rate ehird's rant 9.0 out of 10 on the rantmeter
23:55:37 <oklopol> imo AnMaster doesn't use "that's your opinion" too much, or in stupid ways, then again that's just my opinion
23:55:43 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, only? I would place it at 9.8 at leasyt
23:55:48 <ehird> oklopol: THAT'S JUST YOUR OPINION
23:55:52 <ehird> mycroftiv: why thank you
23:55:58 <mycroftiv> AnMaster: i have pretty high standards for rants, since i deliver quite a few myself when triggered
23:56:37 <ehird> oklopol: anyway it's 23:56 bst
23:56:50 <ehird> which is, fun fact, gmt+1
23:56:52 <oklopol> ehird: i envy your pasty present.
23:57:17 <ehird> no it's not, it's 00:57 there
23:57:23 <ehird> was when you said that line, too
23:57:30 <mycroftiv> this reminds me actually of one of my own rants: when i was in school, we had to learn to classify statements as 'fact' vs. 'opinion' - but the problem is, the definition of 'fact' was basically purely based on authority
23:57:35 <AnMaster> and for mycroftiv it seems to be much much earlier
23:57:45 <ehird> oklopol: just go around the world
23:57:50 <AnMaster> ehird, damn yes, I looked at clock and then it switched half a second later
23:57:51 <ehird> and you'll never spend any time
23:58:09 <ehird> FACT: Gay marriage will destroy the world.
23:58:27 <AnMaster> ehird, so slighly slower than a concorde then?
23:58:29 <ehird> (FACT: Dettol protects?)
23:58:41 <ehird> AnMaster: concorde goes faster than sound, not time.
23:58:55 <oklopol> gay marriage is meaningless
23:59:13 <ehird> oklopol: tru dat, also interracial marriage
23:59:17 <oklopol> if they already get the legal benefits
23:59:26 <mycroftiv> the secret of eternal youth is circling the pole going against the flow of timezones, you go back in time one day per revolution
23:59:39 <ehird> mycroftiv: but that's what i'm saying!
23:59:41 <ehird> just go fast enough
23:59:47 <oklopol> well marriage isn't pointless, from a legal standpoint
23:59:48 <ehird> and time will never pass an hour