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01:56:07 <GregorR-L_> http://codu.org/pics/main.php?cmd=imageview&var1=Assorted%2FGregorInPink.jpg I'm so classy
01:59:40 <GregorR-L_> Well, all pink isn't my USUAL thing, in fact I only have one pink shirt, one pink tie and one pink hat. I just decided to wear them all together today :P
02:00:08 <Pthing> came over a little queer
02:00:15 <ehird> we're all queer here.
02:02:20 <pikhq> GregorR-L_: Out of curiosity, do any "god hates fags" people come to your university?
02:02:42 <GregorR-L_> I haven't seen any, but at the same time it's hardly PSU.
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02:03:21 <pikhq> They've come to mine.
02:03:35 <ehird> Have gay sex in front of them.
02:03:37 <GregorR-L> Purdue is the only big-ten university without a "queer resource center".
02:03:39 <pikhq> ehird: Not them specifically.
02:03:43 <pikhq> Other, smaller groups.
02:04:01 <pikhq> There's more gay guys at my school than there are girls at all...
02:04:14 <pikhq> (this, though funny-sounding, is not hard to pull off)
02:04:30 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Then in terms of maximum utilization of social resources, your choice is clear.
02:16:13 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Which school is this, btw? I forget.
02:16:38 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Missouri University of Science and Technology.
02:16:51 <pikhq> It's not so much that it's a gay haven as it is a not-female haven.
02:17:17 <GregorR-L> That being said, smart girls are HOT.
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03:57:21 <pikhq> Finally, Playstation emulation that doesn't irritate me.
03:59:06 <pikhq> Helps having a Playstation controller.
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09:04:46 <asiekierka> i'm working on my obfuscated Pascal BF interpreter
09:25:41 <asiekierka> []++++++++++[>>+>+>++++++[<<+<+++>>>-]<<+<+++>>>-]<<+<+++>>>-]<<+<+++>>>-]<<+<+++>>>-]<<+<+++>>>-]<<<<-][]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
09:25:51 <asiekierka> that's what my interpreter shows while running this code
09:25:59 <asiekierka> []++++++++++[>>+>+>++++++[<<+<+++>>>-]<<<<-]
09:25:59 <asiekierka> "A*$";?@![#>>+<<]>[>>]<<<<[>++<[-]]>.>.
09:28:52 <asiekierka> also quine.b gives me weird trash at the end
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11:01:53 <Deewiant> Woot, I understood almost half of the introduction of fizzie's thesis presentation
11:03:28 <oerjan> well if it was in finnish, then you still beat most of us
11:04:17 <oerjan> THEN YOU ARE JUST STUPID
11:05:44 <Deewiant> Well, at least I know what fizzie looks like now
11:05:54 <Deewiant> I can stalk him around the campus
11:15:33 <oerjan> indeed, it is quite conceivable that he didn't manage to finish it ;D
11:15:36 <nooga> 4what is it about?
11:15:44 <Deewiant> "Methods for Spectral Envelope Estimation in Noise Robust Speech Recognition"
11:17:11 <oerjan> no longer will the computer be able to say "I can't hear you, la la la la"
11:24:41 <nooga> longer computer will say you be able to hear the la la la la, no i can't
11:29:57 <nooga> regexps look so eso
11:30:26 <nooga> text.gsub!(/\/\/.*$/," ")
11:30:26 <nooga> text.gsub!(/\/\*.*?\*\//m," ")
11:30:27 <nooga> text.gsub!(/^\s*(#\s*(.*\\\n)*.*$)/," ")
11:30:29 <nooga> cla = text.scan(/^\s*(class|struct)\s+(\w+)(?:\s*:\s*(protected|public|private)?\s*(\w+))?/)
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13:09:22 <fizzie> I still don't know what Deewiant looks like, though I guess I can sort of eliminate, given that I knew most of the other people there.
13:09:29 <fizzie> On the other hand I'm terrible at remembering faces.
13:09:50 <fizzie> They should stamp ID numbers over the faces of everyone I ought to know.
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13:24:38 <Deewiant> root is so rude, always rebooting machines when you least expect it
13:25:06 <Deewiant> fizzie: I was next to the guy next to you
13:26:28 <fizzie> Okay, that's what I thought. I think. I probably won't recognize you the next time I see you, so maybe it doesn't matter that much.
13:33:01 <fizzie> I also went and wrote that "kypsyysnäyte" thing.
13:33:22 <fizzie> Lit. translated, "ripeness sample".
13:39:14 <nooga> guys chat on the same # for years, they go to the same univeristy and they don't bother to meet irl
13:39:30 <fizzie> Oh, and the thesis is nowhere yet, though I think we commonly put those to the web after they've been graded and accepted.
13:40:07 <Deewiant> I.e. the school doesn't do that
13:40:39 <fizzie> The school doesn't, yes. I just think at least some of the people in the lab have theirs on their personal pages.
13:41:13 <fizzie> Currently the thesis is in the hands of the professor for final comments before the bind-to-book part.
13:41:35 <fizzie> Or "books". Should figure out how many copies I need, actually.
13:42:02 <oklopol> "Methods for Spectral Envelope Estimation in Noise Robust Speech Recognition" <<< Deewiant: did you understand the spectral envelope estimation half or the noise robust speech recognition half?
13:42:42 <Deewiant> I understood half of the "speech recognition" fifth
13:42:54 <Deewiant> But it was maybe about half of the introduction
13:44:02 <oklopol> and here i thought you knew everything
13:44:15 <fizzie> The presentation wasn't really very polished, I just took the conference thing (which didn't really have much of a speech recognition introduction; being the Nth presentation in a speech recognition conference, I thought people might be a bit bored of it) and quickly slapped something on, without practicing how to utter it.
13:44:47 <fizzie> I guess I could do a more followable speech recognition presentation, but that thesis-lecture is officially just 20 minutes and I had to fit the whole thesis in it too.
13:45:26 <fizzie> The slide-PDF had 28 pages already, that's not in the suggested range for a 20 minute show.
13:45:31 <Deewiant> Yes, that's of course not the point
13:45:39 <oklopol> what's spectral envelope estimation? something like guessing what spectum is enough for getting all the relevant frequencies?
13:45:41 <Deewiant> I think you spent a bit more than 20 minutes anyway
13:45:51 <fizzie> Yes, I hear most people do.
13:46:14 <Deewiant> They're not very strict about it, of course
13:47:39 <fizzie> oklopol: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/speechspec.png <-- that's a speech spectrum and an envelope estimate.
13:48:02 <oklopol> well let me give it an understanding
13:48:17 <Deewiant> Aside from something you put paper in
13:48:44 <oklopol> so basically you the envelop the fft
13:48:50 <fizzie> "b. Electr. Engineering. A curve formed by joining the successive peaks of a graph of an oscillation, esp. a modulated wave."
13:49:01 <fizzie> That's close to the sense.
13:49:12 <Deewiant> Yeah, well that's pretty obvious from the pic
13:49:21 <Deewiant> I guess I meant to ask what it's good for
13:50:36 <fizzie> Well, for speech that comb-like peaky structure comes from the excitation source, which looks like a pulse train, while the shape of the envelope comes from the resonances in the vocal tract.
13:51:31 <fizzie> And since what distinguishes the meaningful sounds is the vocal tract part (the comb structure is pretty much just about the speaking pitch and prosody and so on) it makes sense to use a nice envelope estimate instead of the spectrum itself.
13:52:29 <oklopol> alright, but what exactly is the excitation source?
13:53:04 <fizzie> If you want to talk physics, it's the periodic airflow through the glottis.
13:54:19 <oklopol> so basically what happens @ vocal chords
13:56:59 <fizzie> People have been modeling the glottal pulse shape, too, it's a sort of a half-sine hump.
13:57:39 <oklopol> would a half-sine hump result in a pulsey fft?
13:59:10 <fizzie> If it's a periodic sequence of humps, yes. Though the peaks aren't then impulses, like they would be for the idealized impulse-train-excitation case.
14:04:16 <oklopol> "the peaks aren't then impulses"?
14:05:09 <oklopol> do you mean they are not just single points, but wider?
14:09:04 <fizzie> Yes. In the very horribly much idealized model the excitation source is an impulse train, the vocal tract is an all-pole filter, and the resulting spectrum is a pure line spectrum, with just single points at the harmonic frequencies, with the envelope shape determined by the vocal tract filter.
14:09:11 <fizzie> Of course that's not at all how it works.
14:10:33 <fizzie> One glottal pulse approximation I've seen looks like g[n] = { 1/2*(1-cos(pi*n/N1)), 0 <= n < N1; cos(pi*(n-N1)/(2*N2)), N1 <= n <= N1+N2; 0 elsewhere }. I guess I could FFT a couple of those to see what the spectrum looks like.
14:19:36 <fizzie> http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/train.png -> http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/spec.png (Please don't ask me to explain the slope.)
14:21:15 <oklopol> train is that g[n] thing right?
14:22:05 <fizzie> spec is the log-scale (dB in the Y axis, actually) magnitude spectrum.
14:23:34 <oklopol> what does the idealized impulse train look like, unfft'd?
14:26:13 <oklopol> wait wait i think i confused a few terms in what you said earlier
14:26:28 <oklopol> i'm quite slow at getting into things
14:27:05 <fizzie> An impulse train looks like, well, the same except for impulses. Something like g[n] = { 1 if n = 0 (mod T0); 0 elsewhere } with a suitable period T0 for the fundamental frequency you want.
14:27:33 <fizzie> Okay, so that g[n] I gave was just the shape of one of the humps.
14:28:27 <oklopol> was there some name for the two realms, fft'd and unfft'd sound kinda stupid.
14:28:51 <fizzie> Time and spectral domains.
14:29:19 <oklopol> i'm only familiar with the technical details of dft, i'm assuming the terms wouldn't quite mix
14:29:22 <fizzie> Or the other way around.
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14:31:08 <oklopol> anyway i guess i was asking what the ideal impulse train looks like in spectral domain, you may have told me already
14:32:29 <oklopol> or is that even well-defined
14:32:57 <fizzie> It should look like an impulse train in the spectral domain too, though with the T0 distance replaced with the corresponding F0. At least that's how it's been talked about.
14:32:58 <oklopol> i guess it might be the limit of some infinite spectrum, but maybe i'll wait for the answer
14:33:18 <oklopol> is there a simple relation?
14:33:51 <fizzie> I'm not sure if the peaks have a defined value, actually.
14:34:31 <fizzie> Defined height, I mean.
14:34:47 <fizzie> For a really periodic, infinite sequence, I guess the height could be infinite. But speech people are horrible mathematicians and don't care about that sort of stuff.
14:35:36 <fizzie> I'll check the Rabiner book, he's usually quite formal.
14:36:02 <oklopol> you can be precise without being formal
14:36:23 <fizzie> The single good thing about thesis work is that I have (temporarily, from the library) a pile of the five classical speech textbooks for looking up "trivial" common-knowledge sort of things from.
14:36:26 <oklopol> although i'm not sure what the point of saying that was
14:37:31 <oklopol> you don't read speech literature
14:37:57 <fizzie> I haven't justifiticated buying the books myself, no.
14:39:14 <fizzie> Yes, the DTFT of the signal does not theoretically speaking exist; the mathematical treatment of the book uses the "engineering DTFT".
14:40:55 <fizzie> I mean, obviously it doesn't exist, since you have to have $\sum_{-\infty}^\infty \left| x(n) \right| < \infty$ if you want $x(n)$ to have a DTFT.
14:42:21 <oklopol> i don't know what left and right do in tex
14:42:32 <oklopol> just some kinda alignment?
14:42:55 <fizzie> "\left| x(n) \right|" is just a way to say "| x(n) |" so that TeX knows the |s pair up around x(n), and can spacify them sensibly.
14:43:11 <oklopol> also you can't dtft an infinitely occurring pulse?
14:44:03 <oklopol> i completely ignored | as a random tex character, but i now realize i've finally reverse-engineered the basic syntax and that doesn't fit it
14:44:45 <oklopol> actually i should probably ask what a dtft is :P
14:45:54 <fizzie> X(w) = infinite-sum-with-n of x(n) e^{-jwn}, where w wants to be the omega character when it grows up, j's the good old imaginary unit, and e's e.
14:46:54 <fizzie> That's the DTFT; I guess it doesn't converge very often.
14:48:18 <fizzie> Oh, and x(n) is continuous and infinite and all that fluff.
14:49:42 <oklopol> oh, mister omega? in dft omega is a primitive n'th root of unity, but i don't know what it is here
14:52:14 <oklopol> dft being discrete fourier transform, not sure it's obvious you know i mean tht
14:52:55 <fizzie> Yes; the DFT is much nicer for an engineer, since it's just finite-length sequences and everything's so discrete.
14:54:28 <oklopol> X(w) = infinite-sum-with-n of x(n) e^{-jwn} <<< ah misread this as X(n), i now realize that doesn't even make sense
14:55:40 <oklopol> oh it's discrete-time fourier transform; so this is discrete already
14:55:54 <fizzie> The n time step is discrete.
14:56:03 <fizzie> The values of the signal are continuous, though.
14:57:11 <oklopol> okay i think i see how that works now
14:59:50 <fizzie> Anyway, since the DTFT tends to not exist, they use this "engineering DTFT" built out of Fourier series coefficients and Dirac delta functions, so you get infinite energy at the harmonic frequencies but the integral over the spectrum is still finite.
15:00:03 <fizzie> I'm not sure if that's a common approach or just a peculiarity of this book.
15:00:12 <fizzie> Signal processing is not my strongest subjects, ironically.
15:00:38 <oklopol> i was gonna say something, but i kinda lost my train of thought
15:01:31 <oklopol> drummer called to say he can't come to play metal with us, because he has to attend church
15:02:33 <oklopol> i'm not even going to ask for details
15:02:46 <fizzie> He is going to BURN the church, maybe.
15:03:18 <oklopol> i'd love to know signal processing, but that doesn't really fit my current degree
15:04:05 <oklopol> actually i'm not sure it's so much church, iltahartaus, however that translates, or whatever that means, at the army
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15:04:55 <oklopol> atheists don't have to attend, but they don't have the evening free either
15:05:01 <oklopol> because that would be unfair
15:05:17 <GregorR-L> wtf conversation did I just step into?
15:05:35 <oklopol> it's about signal processing
15:05:48 <fizzie> Ngraargh. I have this tracking number for this mail package, and it seems they've decided to Screw Up(tm) with it.
15:06:31 <oklopol> i'm tlking about it with fizzie, as you can clearly see
15:06:36 <fizzie> The tracking system says "An irregularity has been observed in the processing of the package, delivery may be delayed".
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15:16:06 <nooga> i wonder if there's a programming system that runs ON iphone
15:16:30 <GregorR-L> I'll bet making it would violate the AUP in some stupid way :P
15:17:26 <nooga> i had cool spreadsheet with usable lisp on my symbian phone
15:17:41 <nooga> but it was pain to write something with phone's keyboard
15:17:47 * GregorR-L wonders why a spreadsheet would have lisp built in ...
15:19:10 <Sgeo> The spreadsheet program is a mode in emacs?
15:19:45 <nooga> i don't know but it was nice
15:20:02 <nooga> formulas were written in lisp
15:21:25 <fizzie> "Python on iPhone actually rather good", Nov 2008, http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2008-November/686098.html
15:22:04 <nooga> probably it's python interpreter that runs programs written for iphone
15:23:39 <fizzie> What? No. "Install iPhone/Python (examples, the hello world is a PyObjC call into the iPhone API to load and scroll the contacts list in the phone)"
15:24:30 <GregorR-L> "<nooga> probably it's python interpreter that runs programs written for iphone" this makes NO SENSE
15:26:24 <oklopol> GregorR-L: he means it only runs programs that are written with the iphone in mind
15:26:51 <oklopol> well i was just joking, that makes no sense
15:28:26 <nooga> that python is probably a runtime environment for python programs that runs on iphone
15:28:38 <nooga> what i want is development environment that runs on iphone
15:29:23 <fizzie> Sure, it "just runs Python programs", but you only need a text editor to write those python programs, and it's a development environment.
15:29:53 <nooga> editing text on iphone sucks
15:30:19 <FireFly> Surely someone must have written a BF interpreter for the iPhone?
15:30:20 <nooga> i imagine simpler, perhaps semi-visual editor for building programs
15:30:41 <FireFly> And eight buttons instead of lots means easier to hit them
15:31:02 <nooga> FireFly: something like that, yep
15:31:18 <FireFly> You wouldn't mind that it's BF?
15:31:35 <fizzie> "ibrainfsck: A native iPhone/iPod touch IDE for the brainfuck programming language."
15:32:17 <Sgeo> If a GUI domain is made for PSOX, it would be possible to make a Brainfuck IDE in Brainfuck
15:33:13 <nooga> GregorR-L: add bf debugger and voila
15:33:30 <FireFly> Hm, can't one make use of ANSI escapes with BF?
15:33:50 <GregorR-L> Egg-zactly ... though that just means you'd need a good terminal for iPhone
15:34:19 <nooga> iphone keyboard SUCKS!!! amagad!
15:34:33 <GregorR-L> What?! You mean the commercials LIE?!
15:35:01 <coppro> lack of tactile feedback = bad
15:35:19 <fizzie> Isn't there some sort of vibration-feedback thing?-)
15:35:23 <HackEgo> Also we now have a dedicated press relations guy, if you need anything press related please email chip@openpandora.org and he will do his best to make ... \ [13]BLOG - [14]Forums - [15]Developers - [16]Press area
15:35:43 <fizzie> If even the iPhone keyboard sucks, I wonder how horrible those non-qwerty Android phones everyone seems to be making are.
15:36:27 <FireFly> I wouldn't mind a Dvorak keyboarded cellphone
15:37:59 <fizzie> It's just a term they use for touch-screen-only things.
15:38:45 <FireFly> "various strokes (rather than taps) are used for both shifting case and selecting symbols."
15:39:29 <fizzie> I wonder if there's a Dasher thing for iPhone.
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15:44:15 <nooga> dasher is even usable
15:45:43 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasher
15:48:28 <nooga> nooga: dasher is even usable
15:48:48 <nooga> wow, that's probably the first time we agreed
15:48:51 <AnMaster> oh right, I remember seeing that
15:50:51 <FireFly> Hm.. I think I've seen some input system like that in some DS homebrew
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15:51:43 <FireFly> Homebrew for the Nintendo DS
15:52:58 <nooga> table with consonants, and when you click on choosen one - a pie menu with vowels appears
15:55:28 <nooga> oh, there is a dasher for iphone
15:56:04 <pikhq> "People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the U.K., where the NHS would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless."
15:56:22 <pikhq> ... Correct me if I'm wrong, but... Isn't Stephen Hawking British?
15:57:16 <GregorR-L> Quoted-guy was confused by his computer's accent ;)
15:57:22 <AnMaster> pikhq, where is that quote from
15:57:23 <nooga> but he sits in USA?
15:57:35 <pikhq> AnMaster: Article on Reddit.
15:57:49 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Foiled by DECtalk again!
15:57:52 <nooga> then i was confused by his computer's accent
15:58:07 <GregorR-L> He's at the University of Cambridge.
15:59:04 <pikhq> AnMaster: That's the name of his text-to-speech system.
15:59:21 <pikhq> It was, obviously, designed by DEC.
15:59:55 <pikhq> IIRC, it's on a small, battery-powered UNIX system in his wheelchair.
16:00:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, how does he interact with it I wonder
16:01:17 <pikhq> AnMaster: Don't recall.
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16:18:37 <fizzie> I misread that as "in some DS hebrew", thought it to be some sort of Hebrew-localized input thing.
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16:21:27 <AnMaster> wow: http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/movies/EyeDasher.4800.mpg
16:21:43 <oklopol> anything that's non-qwerty can't be that bad
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16:30:51 <ehird> [16:00] AnMaster: pikhq, how does he interact with it I wonder
16:31:29 <ehird> all his interviews are scripted
16:31:37 <ehird> in Q&A sessions he takes >20m to say a line
16:31:54 <ehird> <person> question?
16:32:00 <ehird> <time> *20 minutes*
16:32:08 <ehird> <Stephen Hawking> Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.
16:32:48 <pikhq> He is a man of great patience.
16:33:36 <AnMaster> then maybe using dasher would be faster
16:33:48 <ehird> dunno. he's looking to replace it but I think with the same control mechanism
16:34:05 <ehird> i wonder if he can access the unix shell :P
16:34:17 <ehird> "forward-slash.... grep.... forward-slash...."
16:35:25 <AnMaster> ehird, how does using the throat vibrations work...
16:35:35 <AnMaster> I mean, how do you, say, write an "a" using it
16:35:36 <ehird> AnMaster: How do you talk?
16:35:36 -!- coppro has left (?).
16:36:28 <ehird> Beyond that, no clue.
16:38:12 <AnMaster> <ehird> all his interviews are scripted <-- you know what. This made me think of shell script before anything else. As in a shell script controlling dectalk
16:39:29 <ehird> (C) My hovercraft is full of eels
16:40:54 <AnMaster> ehird, but since he works with physics it would be "My black hole is full of singularities"
16:41:01 <ehird> no, that just sounds sexual.
16:41:10 <ehird> btw, do you know how to ssh in to a virtualbox vm's sshd?
16:41:19 <ehird> "ssh localhost" doesn't work, do I hafta do some config stuff?
16:41:24 <AnMaster> ehird, I assume you do port forwarding?
16:41:32 <AnMaster> then ssh to the forwarded port
16:41:38 <ehird> umm, why do I need to forward the port
16:41:42 <ehird> it's using my network
16:41:50 <ehird> the vm is running on this box
16:41:53 <AnMaster> ehird, the virtual network has several modes
16:42:10 <AnMaster> as in, your system acts at NAT for it
16:42:20 <ehird> ok, how would I port these forwards
16:42:24 <AnMaster> see the virtualbox manual for how
16:42:51 <ehird> in the host or child
16:43:15 <AnMaster> this applies to 3.0.4 at least
16:44:12 <AnMaster> right, should be about same modulo OS X host then
16:45:17 * AnMaster waits while ubuntu is updating in the vm
16:45:27 <AnMaster> wish there was a pre-updated cd or something
16:45:45 <AnMaster> could be released as a new iso once / month or so
16:45:45 <ehird> I have an Ubuntu VM to
16:45:47 <ehird> although the server vm
16:45:49 <ehird> why are you making a vm?
16:45:56 <AnMaster> ehird, well... it is the third ubuntu vm
16:46:01 <AnMaster> ehird, to test out the unstable ubuntu
16:46:16 <AnMaster> ehird, one of the other ones is for opengenera
16:46:54 <ehird> you crazy ubuntu-user, you
16:47:01 <AnMaster> ehird, and the "third one" was one I temporarily had on my desktop before installing it on the laptop. In order to test how well it worked (ubuntu that is)
16:47:14 <ehird> my ubuntu server vm is for using k3
16:47:25 <ehird> k programming language version 3
16:47:27 <AnMaster> ehird, also I haven't tried the server edition
16:47:35 <ehird> supports windows, linux and solaris
16:47:44 <ehird> AnMaster: http://nsl.com/misc/int/; binary-only.
16:47:51 <ehird> if you want a 64-bit linux binary, you can have it for $100,000
16:47:53 <ehird> contact kx systems.
16:47:53 <AnMaster> I bet it is an array language. what with only having a single letter name
16:48:07 <ehird> runs a shitload of financial instititions and the like
16:48:31 <ehird> anyway, I'm serious about the $100,000 thing
16:48:33 <ehird> that's how much it costs
16:48:43 <AnMaster> ehird, how did you get your copy then
16:48:50 <ehird> http://nsl.com/misc/int/
16:49:03 <ehird> i'm not even sure those zips are legal, although K4/Q/KDB+ is the new thing nowadays and also nsl.com is closely related to kx
16:49:06 <ehird> iirc the owner has the source code
16:49:18 <ehird> AnMaster: it's not, though; it's finance/bank sort of thing
16:49:39 <ehird> consultants get like >$200k *entry level* maintaining that stuff
16:49:43 <AnMaster> ehird, so do you like the language?
16:49:48 <ehird> must be incredibly lucrative for kx
16:49:57 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah, k3 also has a very nice functional reactive programming-based GUI system
16:50:22 <ehird> there isn't any alternative
16:50:32 <ehird> it'll come with direct support etc
16:50:44 <AnMaster> for unknown reason the vm locked up
16:50:47 <ehird> AnMaster: consider that with k/kdb code, companies make billions
16:50:52 <AnMaster> and that isn't the unstable one yet
16:51:10 <ehird> alas k4/q cut out the gui and FRP stuff
16:52:10 <ehird> AnMaster: K was made by arthur whitney, btw
16:52:19 <ehird> the author of that crazy pseudo-J interpreter
16:54:08 <ehird> AnMaster: http://keiapl.org/rhui/remember.htm#40
16:54:10 <AnMaster> it failed to recover journal after the lockup
16:54:12 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Success).
16:54:23 <AnMaster> and dropped me into a emergency shell
16:55:11 <AnMaster> "root inode is not a directory"
16:55:23 <AnMaster> I think this is more or less permanently fucked
16:55:33 <ehird> fsck it 239482394 times
16:56:14 <AnMaster> "Entry '...' in ??? (11) has deleted/unused inode 2. Clear(y)?"
16:56:36 <AnMaster> "Root inode not allocated. Allocate<y>?"
16:57:06 <AnMaster> "Error: /lost+found not found. Create<y>?"
16:59:17 <ehird> http://www.kx.com/a/k/examples/read.k
16:59:21 <ehird> i'm just going to link to this every day
16:59:23 <ehird> it makes me so happy
17:00:13 <AnMaster> ehird, it looks like an esolang
17:00:41 <ehird> i think we need to start defining esolangs by practicality, or we'll just end up classifying everything that isn't C one
17:00:46 <ehird> GregorR-L: that is a program
17:00:52 <ehird> it reads K code, like itself, into English
17:01:01 <AnMaster> now grub complains it can't find root
17:01:13 <GregorR-L> That's not written by hand, is it?
17:01:20 <ehird> GregorR-L: Yes, K is indeed written by hand.
17:01:25 <ehird> GregorR-L: Note that some of the line noise is actually strings.
17:01:47 <ehird> The s: line without strings: s:;1:;r:;a:;v:
17:01:59 <oklopol> i think that's pretty sexy
17:02:01 <ehird> so just a bunch of variable assignments
17:02:15 <ehird> GregorR-L: K code runs a big fat bunch of financial institutions :)
17:02:22 <GregorR-L> Isn't this intended to make K look good though???
17:02:30 <ehird> kx don't give a shit whether it looks good
17:02:41 <ehird> the companies and programmers use it because it is good
17:02:57 <AnMaster> if it doesn't look good no one would find out it is good
17:03:15 <ehird> because he wrote code for a bank and got a contract with them
17:03:19 <ehird> because it worked excellently
17:03:48 <ehird> anyway, about half of that code is either syntax or the basic operations that you just memorise
17:03:55 <ehird> from eyeballing it
17:04:06 <oklopol> M:`flip`negate`first`reciprocal`where`reverse`upgrade`downgrade`group`shape`enumerate`not`enlist`count`floor`format`unique`atom`value <<< is this a gerund like in j?
17:04:07 <ehird> (I can't read it without dissecting it and looking them all up personally atm)
17:04:11 <ehird> oklopol: it's a list
17:04:23 <ehird> oklopol: `foo is a symbol
17:04:27 <ehird> so it's like 1 2 3
17:04:51 <Deewiant> But why use whitespace if you can avoid it, right?!
17:04:54 <oklopol> i thought that was a subroutine definition :D
17:05:15 <ehird> Deewiant: i stab people who say stupid things. do you want to be stabbed?
17:05:18 <oklopol> Deewiant: well the ` kinda makes it useless
17:05:36 <ehird> nonsense, our eyes can only separate tokens with spaces
17:05:43 <ehird> that's why every human language has spaces
17:05:45 <ehird> just ask the japanese
17:05:47 <Deewiant> I'm more eyeballing stuff like x[i]:x[i:&d&(-1_1,d|
17:06:26 <ehird> newsflash: k code is dense
17:07:02 <ehird> the tokens are separated to my eyes; if you know what the tokens do, you can understand it
17:07:59 <Deewiant> I can understand C expressions written without spaces as well, I just think they're far more easily understood with spaces
17:08:11 <ehird> K code isn't really comparable to that
17:09:45 <pikhq> Japanese is aided by having multiple scripts, and there tends to be a script change at word boundries.
17:09:52 <pikhq> Boundaries, that is.
17:10:09 <ehird> like, it switches every single word?
17:10:34 <Deewiant> Particles and stuff like that that tend to be between words don't come in kanji
17:10:40 <pikhq> ehird: Particles and some Japanese words are written in hiragana, foreign loanwords are written in katakana, and most words of Japanese/Chinese origin are written in kanji.
17:10:49 <pikhq> Particles tend to be written between words.
17:11:09 <ehird> well i knew most of that i think
17:11:21 <pikhq> So, it is *generally* apparent what the word boundaries are.
17:12:48 <ehird> japanese innuendo must be fun
17:12:48 <pikhq> So, Japanese does not use spaces at all. (though there is a character used to seperate words for disambiguation)
17:15:29 <ehird> Let'swriteEnglishwithoutspaces.
17:15:37 <ehird> Pfft,thisistrivialtoread.
17:19:25 <Deewiant> Thereadingfailsmostlywhenitisnotsoclearwherethewordboundaryis:forinstance"anunclearedtheroom".Youprobablydidn'tgetthatrightthefirsttime.
17:19:58 <GregorR-L> Actually I read that as "anun cleared the room" and went "?"
17:20:16 <Deewiant> Equally good a failure, I suppose. :-P
17:21:17 <pikhq> GregorR-L: No, it's like '.', except centered vertically.
17:23:43 <ehird> Deewiant: Regardless,it'snotactuallyveryhardandisalotmoreconcise.Additionally,KisofcoursemuchmoretunedforthisthanEnglish.
17:24:07 <GregorR-L> I find it much, much harder than reading text with spaces, actually.
17:24:17 <Deewiant> Ireallydon'tthinkit'sthatmuchmoreconcise.
17:24:20 <GregorR-L> I have to scan for word boundaries, but when I read normally I barely process the words at a ll.
17:24:36 <pikhq> -f y wnt cncs, y rlly shld jst -mt vwls.
17:24:43 <GregorR-L> And when I write I apparently put spaces at improper places in the middle of w ords anyway.
17:24:56 <ehird> Deewiant:You'rebeingfallaciousanyway;asIsaidEnglishwasn'tevenremotelydesignedforanythingofthissort.Kdoesn'tevenhavemultiple-charactertokens!
17:25:00 <ehird> Deewiant:Omit,probably.
17:25:15 <pikhq> Deewiant: I'm using '-' to represent vowels at the start of a word.
17:25:48 <pikhq> Jst - tny bt -sr t rd, -s -ll.
17:26:10 <Deewiant> ehird: Of course I don't know K, so I can't judge, only opine.
17:26:26 <ehird> pikhq:yh,thtsnt-ctllhrd-t-ll.
17:26:30 <Deewiant> pikhq: That only works in English because it only has approximately one vowel anyway.
17:26:39 <ehird> pikhq:yh,thtsnt-ctllyhrd-t-ll.
17:26:43 <ehird> almost got unreadable there :P
17:26:46 <Deewiant> ehird: Now that's bullcrap already. :-P
17:27:09 <Deewiant> Took me a few seconds to parse
17:27:16 <ehird> Yah,thatsnatactallyhardatall
17:27:17 <Deewiant> And a few more to figure out the first word
17:27:26 <ehird> Just insert one single appropriate vowel and voila.
17:27:39 <Deewiant> I read "natactally" as "natally" at first.
17:27:52 <ehird> Natactally is my new favourite word.
17:28:02 <pikhq> Deewiant: English spelling is remarkably well-tuned for being used as an abjad.
17:28:27 <ehird> natactally: Counting how many babies are being born at once.
17:28:35 <ehird> Rather, a count of how many.
17:29:18 <Deewiant> English is all ə anyway so you don't have to think
17:30:38 <ehird> VBoxManage setextradata "Linux Guest"
17:30:38 <ehird> "VBoxInternal/Devices/pcnet/0/LUN#0/Config/guestssh/Protocol" TCP
17:30:38 <ehird> VBoxManage setextradata "Linux Guest"
17:30:38 <ehird> "VBoxInternal/Devices/pcnet/0/LUN#0/Config/guestssh/GuestPort" 22
17:30:39 <ehird> VBoxManage setextradata "Linux Guest"
17:30:39 <ehird> "VBoxInternal/Devices/pcnet/0/LUN#0/Config/guestssh/HostPort" 2222
17:30:50 <ehird> Deewiant: talking english with just that would sound weird..
17:31:05 <pikhq> ehird: You expect saner from Sun?
17:31:46 <ehird> % ssh localhost -p 27443
17:31:46 <ehird> ssh: connect to host localhost port 27443: Connection refused
17:31:49 <ehird> Well, that didn't work.
17:32:17 <ehird> Yeah, let's just bruteforce it instead of thinking about how to solve the problem.
17:32:24 <ehird> PORT STATE SERVICE
17:32:50 <Deewiant> The point is to find out whether an sshd is running on some port or not, which narrows down the problem
17:33:04 <ehird> It obviously isn't forwarding the sshd properly.
17:33:09 <ehird> I'll try restarting the child.
17:34:33 -!- Pthing has joined.
17:34:57 <ehird> now the VM doesn't start
17:35:23 <ehird> wrong network card
17:36:14 <ehird> % ssh localhost -p 27443
17:37:10 <ehird> Logs Ubuntu Server.xml
17:37:34 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> Thereadingfailsmostlywhenitisnotsoclearwherethewordboundaryis:forinstance"anunclearedtheroom".Youprobablydidn'tgetthatrightthefirsttime. <-- "an uncle are d the<wait what?>"
17:38:01 <Deewiant> Oh, that's a third possible reading I didn't even realize
17:38:14 -!- jix_ has joined.
17:38:18 <AnMaster> is that what it is supposed ot be
17:38:25 <Deewiant> Yes, that's the original failure in reading it I was thinking of
17:38:30 <Deewiant> Still not the intended meaning
17:38:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what is it *suppoed* to mean then
17:38:47 <ehird> He'll get it in a few year.
17:39:20 <Deewiant> ehird: Feel free to invent your own and shut up about it
17:39:31 <ehird> Feelfreetoinventyourownandshutupaboutit
17:39:50 <ehird> It's actually Feel free toin ventyo urown and shutup abou tit.
17:41:04 <AnMaster> <ehird> Natactally is my new favourite word. <-- does that word actually exist?
17:42:22 <AnMaster> <ehird> "VBoxInternal/Devices/pcnet/0/LUN#0/Config/guestssh/HostPort" 2222
17:42:25 <AnMaster> <ehird> % ssh localhost -p 27443
17:42:25 <AnMaster> <ehird> ssh: connect to host localhost port 27443: Connection refused
17:42:46 <ehird> That was an excerpt from the manual.
17:42:50 <ehird> I changed it to test it, duh.
17:42:54 <AnMaster> <ehird> Logs Ubuntu Server.xml <--- what is the xml
17:43:02 <ehird> After the hanging I get [[ssh_exchange_identification: Connection closed by remote host]]
17:43:03 <ehird> AnMaster: VM info.
17:43:08 <ehird> Ubuntu Server.xml.
17:43:14 <ehird> Ubuntu Server is the VM name.
17:44:20 <AnMaster> S-Expressions would have been better of course but...
17:44:24 <ehird> One, because XML sucks. Two, because it's not just XML, it's XML written by Sun.
17:44:28 <ehird> And no, S-Expressions would be worse.
17:44:41 <AnMaster> ehird, point two: right, forgot that
17:44:55 <AnMaster> point 1: No I can't agree. it is no worse than HTML
17:45:03 <ehird> Actually it's not even that good, it's XML written by a program written by Sun
17:45:08 <ehird> AnMaster: That's some praise you got there.
17:45:23 <ehird> "VirtualBox configuration files are no worse than the holocaust!"
17:45:42 <AnMaster> ehird, looking at it locally it doesn't seem too bad
17:45:57 <ehird> It wasn't that bad.
17:46:44 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the diff between ubuntu and ubuntu server
17:47:12 <ehird> Ubuntu Server doesn't have the desktop environment, the install process is longer and has more options
17:47:15 <ehird> (it sets LVM up by default)
17:47:20 <ehird> (and lets you encrypt the drive from in there)
17:47:32 <AnMaster> ehird, the alternative install also lets you setup lvm
17:47:34 <ehird> it installs AppArmor by default, dunno if the desktop version does
17:47:44 <AnMaster> ehird, the desktop installs apparmor
17:47:44 <ehird> AnMaster: they are the same thing, I believe.
17:48:11 <AnMaster> ehird, no. the alternative one always install gui
17:48:13 <ehird> they use the same installer though
17:48:27 <AnMaster> ehird, well. I used it to install that vm
17:48:32 <ehird> and the server installs more servery sort of things, I think
17:48:34 <AnMaster> which was like. a few hours ago
17:48:40 <ehird> it lets you install an automatic security updater thingy
17:48:42 <ehird> that isn't gui-based
17:48:53 <ehird> really, the server install is just... the server install.
17:48:55 <AnMaster> ehird, hm. I saw an option for "landscape" or something
17:49:05 <AnMaster> so maybe in the alternative too
17:49:08 <ehird> nah, that's a $$$ proprietary thing by Canonical to manage a whole cluster
17:49:10 <ehird> it's the one in the middle
17:49:19 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:49:21 <AnMaster> ehird, well there was three options
17:49:24 <ehird> that tells you when new updates need to be installed, in ttys
17:49:31 <ehird> and automatically installs security updates
17:49:34 <ehird> AnMaster: it's the middle
17:49:37 <ehird> but it's only auto for security
17:50:15 <AnMaster> also I couldn't manage to get fsck to fix that ext4 partition
17:50:24 <AnMaster> when it did, grub refused to boot
17:50:47 <AnMaster> since /boot was a separate partition
17:56:02 <ehird> argh i hate mailing list archiver interfaces
17:56:17 <AnMaster> ehird, which one in particular
17:56:22 <AnMaster> nabble is one of the worst ones IMO
17:56:26 <ehird> mail-archive.com is pissing me off but really all of them atm
17:56:33 <ehird> nabble is bad in the tree view, but good in the conversation view
17:56:36 <ehird> i don't want to traverse a retarded thread tree every few seconds
17:56:41 <ehird> i just want message, next message, forever
17:56:44 <ehird> in chronological order
17:56:47 <ehird> i.e. what an observer would see
17:56:58 <ehird> organised in to one-level threads
17:57:04 <ehird> which contain all subthreads flattened out
17:57:29 <ehird> only nabble's conversation view does that, and an awful lot of nabble links are tree instead
17:57:46 <ehird> don't care, it's impossible to read large threads with it
17:58:52 <ehird> gmane in blog view is nice too
17:59:10 <ehird> although nabble's conversation view is better since the list just has titles and first post/rest aren't distinguished
18:00:28 <AnMaster> ehird, the worst one however is the one used with mailman
18:00:38 <ehird> there's a bunch with the exact same interface
18:00:40 <AnMaster> pipermail or pipemail or something like that
18:00:45 <ehird> but yeah, i hate it
18:01:09 <ehird> i'd prefer a button that lets me enter my email, click "spam me", and it emails me every email in the thread
18:01:15 <ehird> then i'd view it with gmail, which doesn't make me want to tear my hair out
18:01:38 <ehird> alpine does not have conversation view.
18:02:06 <ehird> the only clients that do are Postbox (awful) and sup (only does labels&co locally; I use email from multiple computers)
18:02:19 <ehird> also sup indents to show the hierarchy so i have to scroll right a lot in my terminal.
18:02:39 <ehird> anyway, why use alpine instead of mut
18:02:51 <AnMaster> ehird, why use mutt instead of alpine
18:03:08 <ehird> everyone else uses mutt and it seems more maintainedly.
18:03:27 <AnMaster> ehird, everyone used to use pine once upon a time
18:03:30 <ehird> also [[On 4 August 2008 the University of Washington Alpine team announced[5] that after one more release, incorporating Web Alpine 2.0, they would "shift our effort from direct development into more of a consultation and coordination role to help integrate contributions from the community."]]
18:03:36 <ehird> AnMaster: and you still do
18:03:39 <ehird> alpine is basically pine.
18:03:43 <AnMaster> ehird, no I switched to alpine
18:03:55 <ehird> same UI, different license :P
18:04:24 <ehird> hmm Linyos Torovoltos uses alpine
18:04:29 <ehird> then again he also uses muemacs
18:04:53 <AnMaster> as in, rather than gnu emacs there
18:04:54 <ehird> (*uEmacs/MicroEMACS :P)
18:05:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Tramp, motherfucker. Do you speak it?
18:05:25 <ehird> What ain't no emacs extension I ever heard of.
18:05:29 <ehird> They connect to servers in what?
18:05:57 <AnMaster> I thought "tramp" was an insult too
18:06:03 <AnMaster> as well as the "motherfucker" there
18:06:17 <ehird> Yes, well, motherfucker is an insult, I'm fairly sure.
18:06:30 <AnMaster> and tramp could be used as one too
18:06:31 <ehird> But that's all absolved when quoting, so there.
18:06:41 <ehird> (Okay, so it wasn't actually "emacs extension".)
18:07:36 <AnMaster> I wonder what I should use the "browser back/forward" buttons for on the laptop
18:07:41 <AnMaster> they are next to the arrow keys
18:07:50 <ehird> Browser back/forward. :P
18:07:55 <ehird> Although I just assign backspace to back.
18:08:01 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes in browser you could
18:08:03 <ehird> It annoys me that FF-on-linux doesn't by default.
18:08:21 <ehird> AnMaster: emacs modifier keys.
18:08:22 <AnMaster> cycle through tabs in konqueor
18:08:23 <ehird> You can never have too many!
18:08:34 <ehird> I use cmd-shift-[ and cmd-shift-] for that.
18:08:50 <ehird> I could also use cmd-shift-left and cmd-shift-right, but, habits.
18:09:14 <fizzie> urxvt's tab-extension (which I use on the laptop) uses shift-left/shift-right for switching tabs, and shift-up or shift-down (I forget) for opening a new one.
18:09:24 <ehird> http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x190/Gmod_Hurrah/omegle.jpg
18:10:04 <fizzie> The previous keyboard had some media keys ("Media", "Play/Pause", "Mute", "Favorities", "E-Mail", "WWW") which I never did anything with.
18:10:43 <ehird> AnMaster: you click chat, it finds someone else who just clicked it, and you get put together in an IM session
18:10:50 <ehird> hilarity ensues very rarely.
18:11:02 <AnMaster> ehird, was that message really auto generated
18:11:03 <fizzie> You could grok that much from the screenshot.
18:11:08 <ehird> No, it's called a joke.
18:11:18 <ehird> [[You: [Omegle is legally required to inform you that you are currently chatting with a registered sex offender.]
18:11:18 <ehird> Stranger: 16 f scotland, you?]]
18:11:19 <ehird> ↑ Like AnMaster, this person apparently cannot read.
18:12:00 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
18:12:44 <AnMaster> ehird, you don't have any laptop right?
18:12:57 <ehird> Not this second, no. Soon, yes.
18:13:07 <AnMaster> ehird, along with your linux system?
18:13:09 <ehird> (I decided that I don't care about a bunch of power and am going to get a notebook instead.)
18:13:40 <ehird> [18:12] AnMaster: ehird, you don't have any laptop right?
18:13:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I wouldn't recommend Lenvo Thinkpad R500
18:14:01 <AnMaster> ehird, reason I wouldn't recommend it is: hardware too new
18:14:20 <ehird> i could get a different wireless card
18:14:24 <ehird> but the R series is far too heavy anyway
18:14:28 <ehird> I'm considering the X series
18:14:40 <AnMaster> ehird, glossy screens there right
18:14:47 <AnMaster> also how is the R series a bit heavy
18:14:49 <ehird> either that or a macbook pro because they have the awesome multitouch trackpad
18:14:53 <ehird> AnMaster: nope, all thinkpads are matte
18:15:02 <ehird> also, I want to take this around everywhere
18:15:04 <AnMaster> ehird, these ones are kind of multi-touch?
18:15:12 <AnMaster> I don't know if it officially is
18:15:20 <ehird> the MBP multitouch ones are glass, though
18:15:22 <ehird> AnMaster: that's not multitouch
18:15:25 <ehird> multitouch is multiple fingers
18:15:34 <ehird> it's pretty much an iphone without a screen
18:15:36 <AnMaster> ehird, never used an iphone XD
18:15:47 <ehird> AnMaster: you can pinch your fingers together and separate them to zoom in/out
18:15:56 <ehird> rotate by rotating two fingers a little
18:16:05 <ehird> on the MBP if you swipe four fingers up it does expose
18:16:07 <AnMaster> cool. like those hard to get right mouse gestures
18:16:21 <ehird> spoken like someone who's never used an iphone
18:16:31 <ehird> try getting smaller hands first
18:16:49 <ehird> anyway, 2kg is about my max
18:17:12 <AnMaster> ehird, I plan to use a backpack for the computer
18:17:16 <ehird> the X200 seems quite good; 12.1" LED display, non-low-volate core 2 and w/ the 9 cell battery, 10hrs battery life
18:17:44 <ehird> AnMaster: consider sitting at a table outside and deciding to go somewhere without a gigantic backpack
18:17:46 <AnMaster> ehird, however. a 21" laptop would be awesome.
18:17:46 -!- pikhq__ has joined.
18:17:48 <ehird> i'd like to be able to just carry it
18:18:01 <AnMaster> ehird, you could make it as think as a macbook air AND fit a CD in it
18:18:01 <ehird> AnMaster: there are 20" laptops
18:18:15 <ehird> not nearly as light, though :P
18:18:21 <ehird> the MBA is 3 pounds / 1.36kg
18:18:37 <AnMaster> ehird, what is that in litres per ounce
18:18:42 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.amazon.com/Pavilion-HDX949NR-20-inch-Centrino-Processor/dp/B001BAZY7W 20 inch laptop
18:19:17 <pikhq__> "What, you want to both browse the web *and* be on IRC?"
18:19:22 <ehird> AnMaster: also, 1.36kg = 45.98 fluid ounces
18:19:40 <ehird> so, fluid laptops!
18:19:53 <ehird> it could be like a bath
18:20:12 <ehird> inverse milliseconds per ... squared seconds?
18:20:19 <ehird> like, if time is the fourth dimension
18:20:22 <ehird> squared seconds use the fifth time dimension too
18:20:33 <ehird> the other two are for time cube.
18:20:42 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought it was like "frequency acceleration"
18:21:11 * AnMaster actually physically loled at ehird's interpretation
18:22:10 <AnMaster> ehird, what would frequency accleration actually be
18:22:18 <ehird> the X200's screen is nice
18:22:24 <ehird> matte but LED-backlit, and 1280x800 in 12.1"
18:22:37 <ehird> AnMaster: i mean that it's nice for its size.
18:22:45 <AnMaster> THEN YOU COULD FIT YOUR FLOPPY DRIVE IN IT TOO
18:22:50 <ehird> usually only glossy screens have LED backlights
18:23:03 <ehird> and 1280x800 is 13.3" on mac laptops, which have high ppi
18:23:08 <AnMaster> oh and like dual CPU and dual harddrives
18:23:10 <ehird> so those pixels in 12.1" is great
18:23:21 <ehird> AnMaster: dual harddrives are easy
18:23:23 <ehird> tons of products do it
18:23:25 <ehird> just replace the optical drive
18:23:29 <ehird> there's tons of third party things for it
18:23:37 <ehird> mostly used for ssd+HD configs
18:23:47 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, but I meant with cd, floppy, dual harddrives and a SSD
18:24:05 <ehird> incidentally, there is a laptop with a 512GB (!) SSD
18:24:09 <AnMaster> ehird, make that the big size of floppies
18:24:17 <ehird> the toshiba portégé R600
18:24:25 <ehird> http://laptops.toshiba.com/laptops/portege/R600; has a 1.4ghz low-voltage processor though
18:24:33 <ehird> which is a shame because everything else is amazing
18:24:42 <AnMaster> 1.4ghz low-voltage processor and 512GB SSD?
18:24:54 <ehird> ultraportable with 10 hours battery life
18:24:55 <AnMaster> performance is completely unmatched
18:25:09 <ehird> AnMaster: anyway 25,708 SEK
18:25:16 <ehird> it's less than 1kg
18:25:31 <ehird> the display is LED-backlit and can absorb natural light for backlight in the day
18:25:36 <ehird> the battery lasts 10 hours
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18:25:47 <ehird> AnMaster: hawdy haw haw
18:25:54 <AnMaster> (hint: Swedish use , for decimal separator)
18:26:08 <AnMaster> rather: it is fucking expensive
18:26:21 <ehird> it is and it isn't
18:26:42 <AnMaster> more than twice of my what thinkpad cost
18:27:38 <ehird> there is not a single other laptop that packs an LED-backlit 12" display that can absorb natural light so it works great in the daylight, WiMAX, a very fast 512GB SSD, an optical drive (!) and 10 full hours of battery life in less than one kilogram
18:28:09 <ehird> i'm surprised it doesn't cost more, really
18:28:35 <ehird> AnMaster: the R500 is the same with a little slower processor, a gig less ram and a 128gb ssd
18:28:46 <ehird> and it costs 19090 sek
18:29:18 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: the R500 is the same with a little slower processor, a gig less ram and a 128gb ssd <-- you confused me at first
18:29:27 <AnMaster> both Lenovo and Toshiba use "R500"
18:30:14 <AnMaster> ehird, btw there is a really silly driver needed for my laptop
18:30:23 <ehird> it's a shame that afaik lenovo and toshiba are the only ones who make matte laptops (apart from uberbulky ones etc)
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18:31:49 <AnMaster> http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0710.0/0374.html
18:32:12 <AnMaster> + * This is a conceptually ridiculous driver, but it is required by the way
18:32:12 <AnMaster> + * the Ricoh multi-function R5C832 works.
18:34:00 <AnMaster> + * The relevant registers live on the firewire function, so this is unavoidably
18:34:05 <ehird> "I've only this moment considered a water-soluble Jesus.
18:34:06 <ehird> There's got to be a market for such a thing."
18:34:11 <AnMaster> ehird, hm all macs have firewire right
18:34:19 <ehird> apple invented it iirc, so yes.
18:34:37 <AnMaster> ehird, where is that quote from
18:35:20 <ehird> the post is a joke.
18:35:27 <ehird> he just runs babble programs.
18:35:38 <AnMaster> also going to play warzone2100 (on my desktop, due to bug mentioned yesteday I can't on my laptop)
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18:36:22 <AnMaster> ehird, idea: losethos should port his OS to "plain English"
18:37:14 <ehird> oh what the fuck, the thinkpad X200 doesn't have a touchpad?
18:37:19 <AnMaster> ehird, did you really laugh out loud?
18:37:21 <ehird> tell me it's not true
18:37:58 <ehird> hmm lenovo site seems to show the x200 as having one
18:38:06 <AnMaster> <ehird> oh what the fuck, the thinkpad X200 doesn't have a touchpad? <-- it is possible
18:38:06 <pikhq> Y'know, I "love" how Plain English is almost unstructured programming...
18:38:14 <ehird> it has one, though
18:38:21 <ehird> unless the "X series" image doesn't reflect it
18:38:24 <ehird> in which case fuck that shit
18:38:26 <AnMaster> ehird, well. Older thinkpads didn't have them
18:38:34 <ehird> on the x200 order page
18:38:41 <ehird> omg, it has no touchpad
18:38:47 <ehird> well to hell with that
18:39:01 <ehird> yah, and those fucked up top buttons
18:39:16 <AnMaster> ehird, I find it easier to work with trackpoint than mousepad
18:39:19 <ehird> http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/34779.jpg one on the right
18:39:23 <ehird> AnMaster: often, yes
18:39:29 <ehird> but it's Nice To Have
18:39:43 <AnMaster> means I can easily use the middle one
18:40:08 <ehird> click both at the same time
18:40:19 <AnMaster> ehird, I want that as a separate action
18:40:25 <ehird> AnMaster: http://images.apple.com/macbookpro/images/overview-gallery2-20090608.png see anything wrong with this image?
18:40:48 <ehird> the whole trackpad is a single button
18:40:53 <ehird> and you right click by pressing it with two fingers
18:41:01 <ehird> or by clicking in the bottom-right if you configure it
18:41:06 <ehird> AnMaster: umm, pressing it down.
18:41:13 <ehird> it's an actual button
18:41:15 <AnMaster> I always end up tapping by mistake
18:41:50 <ehird> not yet, but i've seen videos and I haven't seen one opinion that wasn't unanimously positive about it
18:41:59 <ehird> besides, I have an iphone
18:42:05 <ehird> it's just an iphone button.
18:42:07 <AnMaster> ehird, you would end up moving the mouse slightly every time you click
18:42:19 <AnMaster> what if you want the pointer absolutely still
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18:42:26 <ehird> take your hand off
18:42:27 <AnMaster> like if precision image editing
18:42:30 <ehird> besides, it doesn't move
18:42:36 <AnMaster> ehird, how do you click it with your hand off
18:42:36 <ehird> i know that for a fact since I have an iphone
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18:43:21 <AnMaster> ehird, also what sort of design did apple go through since ibook original...
18:43:33 <ehird> trackpad, one button
18:43:58 <AnMaster> blue plastic -> other colours too -> metal -> white plastic -> metal again
18:44:10 <ehird> the powerbook was concurrent with ibook
18:44:20 <ehird> it was black plastic then metal
18:44:25 <ehird> now it's metal + black glass/plastic
18:44:41 <ehird> AnMaster: also, the lack of a button on the new MBPs is great beacuse it means the trackpad is bigger too
18:44:48 <ehird> so no pick up finger, put it back
18:45:18 <ehird> because you reached the edge of your anemic-sized trackpad?
18:45:35 <AnMaster> and use your index finger for "tracking"
18:45:37 <ehird> the MBP's is the biggest trackpad
18:45:51 <ehird> well apart from the full-width olpc thing
18:45:57 <ehird> but that's not the same thing all the way through
18:46:20 <ehird> they also planned to start using windows
18:46:30 <ehird> new OLPC is just a monkey-on-crackfest, so I won't consider it
18:46:34 <ehird> that's their plan atm
18:46:49 <ehird> it uses OpenFirmware
18:47:05 <ehird> OpenFirmware = Forth = <3
18:47:25 <ehird> moving to EFI is among the stupidest things apple has ever done :-(
18:47:30 <AnMaster> bluetooth works perfectly under linux
18:47:41 <AnMaster> between the computer and my nokia phone at least
18:47:47 <AnMaster> which I wouldn't have expected
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18:48:04 <ehird> AnMaster: you have a phone that does bluetooth? I was hoping one of those bog-standard greyscale nokias
18:48:08 <ehird> with monotone ringtones
18:48:46 <ehird> I hereby announce the elliottphone
18:48:53 <ehird> It is merely one button
18:48:58 <ehird> When you hold it, it listens
18:49:01 <ehird> then calls the contact
18:49:04 <ehird> (tons of phones have that)
18:49:07 <ehird> Pressing it in a call hangs up.
18:49:13 <ehird> It rings and speaks who's calling when you get a call.
18:49:20 <ehird> There is no screen or keypad.
18:49:22 <AnMaster> it tends to open games instead
18:49:25 <ehird> it's better on higher-end phones
18:49:28 <fizzie> What I wouldn't have expected is that in Ubuntu (okay, so I should have expected it) you can stick in one of those GPRS/3G/UMTS/HSDPA USB modems, and it pops up a three-or-so step wizard (which is pretty much "we guessed your country, now select your ISP") and after that there's a "mobile broadband" or some such similar category in the network manager tray-thing.
18:49:39 <ehird> Also, you add contacts by tapping the button while not in a call.
18:49:50 <ehird> You then speak a name, tap it again, and speak the number...but...carefully.
18:49:54 <ehird> Tap it once more and you're done!
18:49:57 <ehird> It's revolutionary.
18:50:25 <ehird> i wonder if mobile broadband thingies do overseas
18:50:42 <ehird> be nice to hop on a wifi'd up plane to somewhere and never lose internet connection :D
18:51:04 <AnMaster> most of the hardware just work
18:51:09 <ehird> windows rarely just works
18:51:13 <fizzie> At least for telephone operators here it means the "roaming GPRS" ten million zorkmids for a kilobyte charges.
18:51:24 <AnMaster> ehird, well, drivers usually exist for it
18:52:05 <ehird> AnMaster: You play nethack, don't you?
18:52:40 <fizzie> Though for many countries, sending the shortest countable number of bytes (10k or 25k or such is common) is still cheaper than sending a single SMS; we used that from the Italy vacation to send daily "still alive" email reports to a whole pile of relatives at once, instead of separate SMS messages.
18:53:07 <AnMaster> how comes fantasy money is always very inflated or the opposite
18:53:18 <ehird> AnMaster: because gold is abundant
18:53:29 <AnMaster> or 5000 <currency> is nearly nothing
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18:53:38 <fizzie> One just has to be careful to pick the operator which counts at 10k or some small granularity, instead of a "minimum charge for 1 megabyte" thing.
18:53:45 <AnMaster> ehird, that doesn't answer *both* cases
18:53:52 <pikhq_> My damned Internet connection is doing round-robin with its IRC connections.
18:53:54 <Deewiant> Because fantasy games tend to be either blatantly realistic or blatantly unrealistic
18:53:55 <ehird> i think that mmorpg i used to play had a reasonable currency
18:54:08 <ehird> don't recall, so long ago
18:54:16 <ehird> although i think it had one of those exchange-real-cash-for-fake-cash thingies
18:54:19 <ehird> so i guess that kept it stable
18:54:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I wouldn't call either of those realistic. Rather unrealistic in different directions
18:54:38 <ehird> it's a very ballsy business plan
18:54:40 <Deewiant> If <currency> is gold then the former is realistic
18:54:51 <AnMaster> ehird, true, but it usually isn't
18:54:55 <Deewiant> Hell, even if it's silver it is
18:55:26 <AnMaster> there it is always 60000 for a space ship upgrade or so
18:55:33 <Deewiant> EVE Online has a sensible economy
18:55:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, I haven't played MMORPGs
18:55:48 <Deewiant> There that is millions, possibly billions
18:55:55 <Deewiant> If you want a good ship, anyway
18:56:00 <fizzie> Here's a bit of trivia from Wikipedia: it's been estimated (in 2006) that all the gold ever mined up totals to a cube with 20.2 metre sides.
18:56:22 <ehird> isn't EVE Online ridiculously huge?
18:56:26 <fizzie> Not more; 158000 tonnes.
18:56:33 <Deewiant> 8000 cubic metres isn't enough? :-P
18:56:49 <Deewiant> ehird: Depends on what you mean by "huge"
18:56:57 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's just the cubification; I mean, it's smaller than this building.
18:57:01 <ehird> 20 meters isn't a lot.
18:57:32 <fizzie> I'm not sure anyone has bothered to do a similar estimate for iron.
18:57:33 <Deewiant> Hell, 1*1*20 metres of gold seems like a shit-tonne
18:57:52 <AnMaster> <ehird> isn't EVE Online ridiculously huge? <-- in star systems wikipedia claims 7500 of them. IIRC vegastrike has astronomical data entered for something like 20 000 star systems
18:58:33 <Deewiant> But how fast is travel in vega strike
18:59:06 <fizzie> But 1544 million metric tons of iron ore were produced in 2005 alone, so I'm guessing there's a whole lot more iron than gold. (No, really!?)
18:59:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm? semi-realistic. Unless you active the SPEC drive (for fast in system travel) or use a jump point (for inter-system travel, works by wormholes)
18:59:43 <Deewiant> "Semi-realistic" means nothing if you never use that speed for travel :-P
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18:59:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: How long does it take to go through, say, 20 systems?
19:00:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, SPEC drive doesn't work close to gravity wells
19:00:16 <AnMaster> so you need to slow down when approaching planets and space stations and such
19:00:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm, if you don't need to refuel during the way... maybe 15-30 minutes?
19:00:47 <ehird> isn't eve online like, populated?
19:00:49 <ehird> in all those systems
19:00:58 <Deewiant> In EVE that'd be around an hour
19:01:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not too much of a difference then
19:01:22 <Deewiant> Given a small, fast ship, that is :-P
19:01:25 <ehird> in real life that'd be about a few million years!
19:01:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well yes I was assuming that too
19:01:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, with a capship it would take hours.
19:02:12 <AnMaster> mostly due to gravity wells around planets and jump points
19:02:19 <Deewiant> ehird: In real life we don't have hyperdrives and whatnot so it's different
19:02:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if you were to use the SPEC drive only, (haven't tried, but theoretically possible, if you can aim properly) to travel between systems, I guess days
19:03:14 <ehird> Deewiant: But hyperdrives aren't realistic!
19:03:25 <AnMaster> here I mean something like Sol -> Alpha Centauri (sp?)
19:03:38 <ehird> We're talking about realisticness.
19:03:56 <ehird> 03:15:33 <oerjan> indeed, it is quite conceivable that he didn't manage to finish it ;D
19:04:05 <GregorR-L> Nothing in physics prevents you from getting from any location in the universe to any other location in the universe in an arbitrarily short amount of time from your perspective.
19:04:15 <ehird> 03:24:41 <nooga> longer computer will say you be able to hear the la la la la, no i can't
19:04:22 <ehird> GregorR-L: Except reality :p
19:04:32 <Deewiant> Reality isn't a part of physics
19:05:36 <ehird> `addquote <Deewiant> Reality isn't a part of physics
19:05:37 <HackEgo> 67|<Deewiant> Reality isn't a part of physics
19:05:59 <GregorR-L> Well, if you accelerate too rapidly you'll go *splat*, so yes, there are issues :P
19:06:16 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, there are ways around that
19:06:42 <GregorR-L> The single most important piece of technology to not exist in any form :P
19:06:43 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, Ones that really work, And exist today
19:06:43 -!- pikhq___ has joined.
19:06:54 <AnMaster> called fluid immersion + fluid breathing
19:06:56 <Deewiant> Inertial nullifiers would be cool
19:06:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:07:16 <AnMaster> raises the limit from 9 G to 25 G or something like that
19:07:28 <ehird> Oh, 25 G, that's nice.
19:07:34 <ehird> Let's go cross the star syst—
19:07:42 <AnMaster> ehird, well that still takes time
19:07:43 <ehird> —turns out it's a bit more than 25 G
19:08:10 <GregorR-L> ehird: ... are you ... arguing that the distance across the star system is more than 25 ... G?
19:08:30 <pikhq___> ehird: Clearly he measures everything in terms of acceleration.
19:08:34 <ehird> I never argue, GregorR-L. :P
19:09:06 <AnMaster> ehird, could you cut down on it
19:09:24 <ehird> Your MOM's sanity.
19:10:03 <GregorR-L> `wolfram distance to Alpha Centauri
19:10:09 <HackEgo> distance to Alpha Centauri \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ Rigel Kentaurus A \ Current result: \ \ distance from Earth \ \ 4.39 ly light years \ Unit conversions: \ \ 1.346 pc parsecs \ Comparisons as distance: \ \ distance to Proxima Centauri \ \ 4.2 ly \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com) on August 11,
19:10:24 <HackEgo> 4.39 lightyears = 4.15317197 10^16 meters
19:10:53 <HackEgo> 1 light year=5865696000000 miles 1 light minute=11176920 miles ... Proxima Centauri, the closest star to Earth other than the Sun, is 4.2 light years away. ...
19:10:54 <AnMaster> `wolfram distance to the Andromenda galaxy
19:11:01 <HackEgo> distance to the Andromenda galaxy \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ M 31 \ \ distance from Earth \ \ Current result: \ \ 788.3 kpc kiloparsecs \ Unit conversions: \ \ 0.7883 Mpc megaparsecs \ Comparison as distance: \ \ 1.1 Andromeda galaxy distance \ \ 725 kpc \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com) on August
19:11:12 <HackEgo> 41 531 719 700 000 000 / 2 = 2.07658598 10^16
19:11:13 <AnMaster> `wolfram distance to the Andromenda galaxy in meters
19:11:15 <HackEgo> If the nearest star is 4.2 light years away how far is the star? 4.2 light years . It is a distance. 4.2ly = 4.0*1016 meters. ...
19:11:21 <HackEgo> distance to the Andromenda galaxy in meters \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ convert M 31 \ Result: \ \ distance from Earth \ \ to meters \ \ 2.433 1022 meters \ History: \ \ prune`result \ Additional conversions: 19 \ \ 1.512 10 miles \ \ Comparison as distance: \ \ 1.1 Andromeda galaxy distance \ \ 725 kpc \ \ Generated
19:11:34 <ehird> Only two and a half meters!
19:11:40 <GregorR-L> 25*9.80665*x^2 = 20765859800000000
19:12:01 <GregorR-L> Wait, wtf, why doesn't that agree?
19:12:24 <AnMaster> `wolfram distance to the Proxima Centauri
19:12:28 <GregorR-L> 25*9.80665*x^2 = 20765859800000000
19:12:30 <ehird> http://futurestack.com/jump/aebugs/ ← <3
19:12:31 <HackEgo> distance to the Proxima Centauri \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ Proxima Centauri \ Current result: \ \ distance from Earth \ \ 4.218 ly light years \ Unit conversions: \ \ 1.293 pc parsecs \ Comparisons as distance: \ \ 0.999 distance to Proxima Centauri \ \ 4.223 ly \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com)
19:13:07 <GregorR-L> Only 213 days to Alpha Centauri at 25G acceleration then deceleration.
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19:13:40 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, does that include relativistic effects
19:13:40 <GregorR-L> Mind you, that would be millions of years of Earth time, but screw Earth.
19:14:01 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, if so, how did you calculate it
19:14:07 <Deewiant> So what, you're accelerating for 106.5 days then decelerating?
19:14:26 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, what is the top speed you reach
19:14:45 <ehird> Erm, faster than light, no?
19:15:15 <ehird> Silly is not a verb.
19:15:24 <AnMaster> ehird, you used it as one above
19:15:30 <HackEgo> 106.5 days = 9 201 600 seconds
19:15:33 <GregorR-L> Things will dilate such that you're not going faster than light, but if you view time from your perspective and space from Earth's perspective, yes, you're going faster than light.
19:15:41 <ehird> AnMaster: that just wrong grammer, but okay.
19:15:54 <ehird> GregorR-L: Fail :D
19:16:05 <ehird> Youuuuuu're stuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuupiiiiiiiiiiiiiiid
19:16:19 <HackEgo> 25 * 9.80665 * 9 201 600 = 2 255 921 766
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19:17:31 <HackEgo> 2 255 921 766 / 299 792 458 = 7.52494503
19:18:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what did you measure
19:18:29 <ehird> Deewiant: Yeah, 7.5x SUCKS!
19:18:39 <Deewiant> 106.5 days of acceleration at 25G and the resulting top speed
19:18:49 <Deewiant> At least, that's what I tried to calculate
19:18:58 <ehird> Looking out the window would be fun
19:20:35 <ehird> 07:16:06 <nooga> i wonder if there's a programming system that runs ON iphone
19:20:35 <ehird> 07:16:30 <GregorR-L> I'll bet making it would violate the AUP in some stupid way :P
19:20:40 <ehird> It's against the app store TOS
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19:20:50 -!- puzzlet has joined.
19:20:57 <ehird> But jailbreaking. Or, you can do whatever the fuck you want with the SDK as long as you don't use the app store.
19:21:01 -!- pikhq__ has quit (Success).
19:21:18 <ehird> 07:22:04 <nooga> probably it's python interpreter that runs programs written for iphone
19:21:18 <ehird> 07:22:07 <nooga> not on iphone
19:22:10 <ehird> 07:34:19 <nooga> iphone keyboard SUCKS!!! amagad!
19:22:11 <ehird> 07:34:33 <GregorR-L> What?! You mean the commercials LIE?!
19:22:11 <ehird> 07:34:50 <coppro> yes, yes it does
19:22:11 <ehird> It's nowhere near as bad as it sounds, actually. I can type like 50wpm just fine.
19:22:12 <GregorR-L> Is there any supported non-appstore way to distribute iPhone applications?
19:22:17 <ehird> Beats a BlackBerry keyboard.
19:22:28 <ehird> 07:35:19 <fizzie> Isn't there some sort of vibration-feedback thing?-)
19:22:29 <ehird> No. That wouldn't help, anyway.
19:22:38 <GregorR-L> Is it even possible to give away programs for free?
19:22:44 <fizzie> There's one in the HTC Hero, and they say it helps.
19:22:52 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> 106.5 days of acceleration at 25G and the resulting top speed <-- clearly impossible
19:23:08 <fizzie> It's not a real keypress anyway, I can guess that much.
19:23:13 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: That is not impossible by any stretch of the imagination.
19:23:26 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, so what would it actually take to a human accelerating at 25G without going faster than light
19:23:33 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Of course I calculated it Newtonially
19:23:43 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Accelerating at 25G for any amount of time.
19:23:47 <Deewiant> It would take applying relativism
19:24:00 <AnMaster> you don't accelerate as quickly near the end
19:24:26 <AnMaster> I never managed to get my head around it
19:24:48 <Deewiant> I find relativity much simpler than, say, electrostatics/dynamics
19:24:52 <GregorR-L> The #1 thing people don't understand about relativity is that the speed of light is not a boundary, and it does not prevent you from going arbitrarily great distances in arbitrarily short amounts of time /from your perspective/.
19:25:08 <GregorR-L> Or rather, it's not a boundary in the hard-and-fast sense, it's an asymptote.
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19:25:27 <ehird> GregorR-L: I don't know why that is, but it makes me happy anyway.
19:25:30 <Slereah_> Deewiant : Only 'cause you don't know shit about it
19:25:35 <ehird> Let's go at ten bajillion times the speed of light!
19:25:46 <Slereah_> Real relativity is like shitload of horrible
19:25:51 <Deewiant> Slereah_: About relativity? s/relativity/special relativity/, sorry
19:25:56 <ehird> 07:39:29 <fizzie> I wonder if there's a Dasher thing for iPhone.
19:25:56 <ehird> not really suited I don't think
19:26:15 <Slereah_> It has like lorentz gauges and tensorial calculus and shit
19:27:20 <Deewiant> Yes, well, if you want to do stuff with the space-time geometry then sure
19:27:51 <Slereah_> Not really, this is all flat space time
19:28:54 <ehird> So Slereah_, how will the faster-than-light LHC accelerator interact with the relative gravitational space-time warp's quantum effects?
19:29:01 <Deewiant> Yes, it's a flat Minkowski space, but you don't have to mess with that stuff unless you want to :-P
19:29:10 <ehird> *Slereah_ explodes*
19:29:39 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
19:30:28 <Deewiant> It does get into weird stuff when you start looking at worldlines and hyperplanes and whatever but I don't think that's an essential part of special relativity...
19:31:09 <ehird> http://kitenet.net/~joey/blog/entry/ssh_port_forwarding/ // openbsd.org has a security hole
19:31:18 <ehird> Take that, AnMaster!
19:32:19 <ehird> But openbsd.org do.
19:32:24 <ehird> HOW CAN YOU TRUST THEM ANY MORE
19:32:52 <AnMaster> "in OpenBSD in 1999. Ok, so it wasn't in the security-focused OS, but just in their infrastructure. And it wasn't a very bad hole; it just allowed doing things like IRCing with a openbsd.org address."
19:32:56 <ehird> AnMaster: "So I was really suprised when, checking as I write this article, I found the same hole still exists in one of their main CVS servers, as well as more than one of their CVS mirrors"
19:33:18 <ehird> AnMaster has eyes that can only read two sentences at a time; after that, his brain turns off and flashes an error code: "tl;dr".
19:33:40 <ehird> Maybe you just think you do.
19:35:48 <pikhq_> Am I the only person who willingly reads long things online?
19:35:56 <ehird> pikhq_: No, I do too.
19:36:01 <ehird> I even did so with a CRT.
19:36:21 <AnMaster> ehird, just a bad default for certain services
19:36:46 <ehird> <person on Fox News> Why put [the word] god in your [atheist] ad? You don't believe in god.
19:36:53 <ehird> The ad in question: "You can be good without god".
19:37:26 <ehird> ("Mr. Binder, as an atheist you do not believe in god, yet you sued to put god in your ad. Why?")
19:37:31 <pikhq_> ehird: I'd hesitate to just call that an atheist ad. That seems like an ad in favor of humanism. ;)
19:37:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Rather?!
19:37:49 <ehird> pikhq_: From an atheist group. But it's an incredibly common thing for religious people to say -
19:38:01 <ehird> "how can atheists be good? They don't have any sky-dictator to give them an ineffable code of morals."
19:38:03 <AnMaster> ehird, I always use "rather", I avoid extreme judgements
19:38:11 <ehird> AnMaster: HAVE YOU EVER WATCHED FOX NEWS
19:38:14 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:38:22 <pikhq_> ehird: ... How, exactly, do they rationalise that with people of different religions being good?
19:38:31 <pikhq_> Or, for that matter, atheists being good?
19:38:47 <AnMaster> ehird, only some short bits on youtube
19:38:52 <ehird> pikhq_: If their moral code is identical to the person in questions', then either luck or they actually got the same moral code, they just didn't realise it.
19:38:58 <ehird> If not, then they're not moral and any such code isn't from a real god.
19:39:07 <pikhq_> Or, for that matter, people of their religion being immoral?
19:39:19 <ehird> (Seconds before this stupidity: "Join us now for a fair and balanced debate.")
19:39:27 <ehird> (Fair and balanced between sane and fucking batshit.)
19:40:06 <AnMaster> yep it is rather stupid and insane indeed
19:40:14 <pikhq_> "Fair and balanced". ... Yes, because having an apeshit crazy Republican and a token (conservative) Democrat is fair and balanced.
19:40:22 <pikhq_> And because those are the only two positions possible.
19:40:27 <ehird> No, the other person in this case is the atheist in question. :P
19:40:27 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
19:40:49 <ehird> Also, "(conservative) Democrat" is redundant.
19:41:12 <pikhq> ehird: I mean that as "conservative for a Democrat".
19:41:19 <ehird> So, a Republican. :P
19:41:46 <ehird> I read an article in the New York Times saying that Sean Hannity is actually a liberal trying to make conservatives look stupid
19:41:57 <AnMaster> how can there be so few political parties in US
19:42:05 <ehird> AnMaster: Voting system.
19:42:11 <ehird> Corporate alliances.
19:42:20 <ehird> (evidence for Hannity being a liberal included "he uses attractive women for his democrats and old curmudgeons for his republicans")
19:42:51 <AnMaster> in the Swedish parliament there are seven political parties
19:43:04 <ehird> You don't use winner-takes-all, do you?
19:43:36 <pikhq> They have proportional representation.
19:43:39 <AnMaster> why doesn't US change from winner-takes-all?
19:43:42 <ehird> Uhh, I don't actually know much at all about our system. I know that the vast majority is labour vs conservatives.
19:43:50 <ehird> Both of whom are right-wing in comparison to Sweden and left-wing in comparison to the US
19:43:52 <AnMaster> I mean, often the democrats would win on it
19:43:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Uhh, who would vote it in?
19:43:59 <ehird> Not the Republicans, not the Democrats.
19:44:02 <pikhq> AnMaster: Because that would require politicians in office to agree on it.
19:44:03 <ehird> They're almost identical, as parties.
19:44:13 <ehird> And both have lots and lots of corporate backing.
19:44:30 <pikhq> Note that they rig the system to prevent people from being voted out.
19:44:37 <pikhq> (see gerrymandering)
19:44:55 <ehird> It's funny how right-wing the UK is, and yet nobody in parliament even THINKS of suggesting making our healthcare system any less "socialised" than it is.
19:45:03 <ehird> The US is batshit.
19:45:31 <pikhq> ehird: In other news, *China* is trying to create a universal healthcare system.
19:45:45 <pikhq> So... In 10 years, China is going to have a better healthcare system than we do.
19:46:05 <ehird> North Korea has no healthcare system! If you use ideology Juche Idea illness is imaginary!
19:46:07 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Hush; China's not much of a communist state these days.
19:46:18 <ehird> HOORAY FOR KIM IL-SUNG!
19:46:22 <ehird> HOORAY FOR KIM JONG-IL!
19:46:26 <ehird> HOORAY FOR THE PARTY!
19:46:28 <pikhq> It's some bizarre hybrid between communism and laissez faire capitalism.
19:46:29 <ehird> HOORAY FOR NORTH KOREA!
19:46:47 <pikhq> With lots of corruption.
19:46:51 <ehird> AnMaster: "free" market
19:47:02 <pikhq> AnMaster: Corporations there have very little to no regulation.
19:47:19 <pikhq> That's called "laissez faire".
19:47:47 <ehird> ˌleɪseɪˈfɛər in English.
19:47:57 <ehird> [lɛsefɛʁ] in French.
19:48:11 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Laissez-faire.ogg french
19:48:15 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/En-us-laissez-faire.ogg english
19:50:06 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:51:05 * ehird devises an evil ssh-to-vm system
19:51:26 <ehird> Run an ssh shell in the background (not attached to a terminal or anything).
19:51:35 <ehird> When running the user program, resume it and start K.
19:51:40 <ehird> When the user program terminates, exit K.
19:51:46 <ehird> Voila! Is instant!
19:51:46 <oerjan> gah, internet _still_ molasses :(
19:52:11 <ehird> It can even do X forwarding for the GUI.
19:52:19 <ehird> or rather, will be able to
19:52:37 <AnMaster> ehird, why not just a shell script that sshs
19:52:48 <AnMaster> why the idle in background bit
19:52:52 <ehird> AnMaster: connecting and authenticating takes time
19:52:58 <ehird> direct k3 starts up instantly
19:52:59 <AnMaster> ehird, use ssh keys + ssh-agent to avoid having to enter key
19:53:11 <ehird> it'll be unpassworded
19:53:11 <AnMaster> ehird, hm, takes like 0.03 seconds to ssh
19:53:19 <ehird> I might do that if it's fast enough
19:53:32 <AnMaster> ehird depends on how fast computer you have
19:53:36 <ehird> 0.03 is quite a lot
19:53:43 <ehird> though indeed not much
19:54:05 <AnMaster> and that is from a sempron to a pentium 3
19:54:37 <ehird> after that I need to mount / as /osx in the vm
19:54:43 <ehird> and make sure that it cds to /osx/host-path before starting k3
19:54:56 <AnMaster> ehird, that means calling vboxmanage
19:55:06 <ehird> no, it means using the gui :)
19:55:24 <ehird> uhh i just do it once
19:55:25 <AnMaster> ehird, yes shared folders is what I meant
19:55:26 <ehird> and it's mounted on bootup
19:55:42 <ehird> since i have virtualbox tools installed
19:55:49 <AnMaster> ehird, oh thought you meant mount <current path as /osx>
19:55:52 <ehird> sorry, "guest additions"
19:56:01 <ehird> /osx/Users/ehird/Code/kfun or whatever
19:56:11 <AnMaster> ehird, so now to infect the vm
19:56:32 <ehird> I trust it about as much as my host
19:56:46 <ehird> backslash paths, X11 forwarding
19:56:56 <ehird> I did consider using wine
19:56:58 <ehird> but, backslash paths
19:57:01 <ehird> besides, linux just maps better
19:57:18 <ehird> oh that's why my ssh port forwarding didn't work I think
19:57:28 <ehird> maybe "Port 22 27443" would do it
19:58:02 <ehird> guess it translates before then
19:58:32 <AnMaster> ehird, try the pcap variant to make it public along your own computer on the lan
19:58:49 <ehird> nah, I'd prefer to do it the Right Way
19:59:24 <ehird> 27443 is, incidentally, "k3"
19:59:48 <ehird> AnMaster: eh, why?
20:00:05 <AnMaster> ehird, I remember having some issues with high port for forwarding
20:00:17 <AnMaster> might have been qemu or somethinh
20:00:27 <ehird> now how do i represent k3 as a lower number :D
20:02:43 <ehird> % ssh localhost -p 5000
20:02:43 <ehird> The authenticity of host '[localhost]:5000 ([127.0.0.1]:5000)' can't be established.
20:02:44 <ehird> RSA key fingerprint is 81:e6:45:cf:8a:c2:a6:e2:76:1a:94:b9:85:0e:56:c9.
20:02:44 <ehird> Are you sure you want to continue connecting (yes/no)?
20:02:46 <fizzie> UPnP stuff uses TCP port 5000. Probably not an issue.
20:02:54 <ehird> fizzie: hmm i do upnp stuff
20:02:57 <ehird> that's just on my router right
20:03:03 <ehird> I'll pick something more unique now anyway
20:04:28 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc the high ports are used for "automatically when connecting outwards" kind of stuff
20:04:48 <AnMaster> thus might be iffy to use when doing "listening to incoming" kind of stuff
20:05:30 <AnMaster> `addquote <ehird> thanks AnMaster
20:05:31 <HackEgo> 68|<ehird> thanks AnMaster
20:05:56 <HackEgo> 46|<ehird> Or the brutal rape of the English language! <pikhq> That wasn't rape. English is always willing.
20:06:05 <HackEgo> 56|<oklopol> i'm my dad's unborn sister
20:06:17 <HackEgo> 4|<lament> i read paths as penis :(
20:06:22 <HackEgo> 46|<ehird> Or the brutal rape of the English language! <pikhq> That wasn't rape. English is always willing.
20:06:25 <HackEgo> 18|<fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know.
20:06:28 <ehird> HackEgo has rape on the brain.
20:06:31 <HackEgo> 8|<Warrigal> GKennethR: he should be told that you should always ask someone before killing them.
20:06:35 <HackEgo> 62|<ehird> With enough crappiness a display can show you invisible pink unicorns.
20:06:43 <HackEgo> 43|<ehird> pikhq: A lunar nation is totally pointless. <fungebob> ehird: consider low-gravity porn <ehird> fungebob: OK. Now I'm convinced.
20:06:46 <HackEgo> 11|<SimonRC> TODO: sex life
20:06:51 <HackEgo> 22|IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE.
20:06:57 <HackEgo> 42|<ais523> after all, what are DVD players for?
20:07:02 <HackEgo> 67|<Deewiant> Reality isn't a part of physics
20:07:04 <HackEgo> 66|<Aftran> It looks like my hairs are too fat. Can you help me split them?
20:07:12 <HackEgo> 64|<Deewiant> I spent the last minute or so killing myself repeatedly
20:07:19 <HackEgo> 63|<fizzie> The thing is just to exist
20:07:25 <HackEgo> 62|<ehird> With enough crappiness a display can show you invisible pink unicorns.
20:07:35 <AnMaster> <HackEgo> 64|<Deewiant> I spent the last minute or so killing myself repeatedly
20:07:37 <fizzie> That is a useful tool for highlighting everyone.
20:07:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, care to tell me context
20:07:41 <ehird> "that were the new ones" x_x
20:07:46 <fizzie> ` is the Scheme quasiquote character.
20:07:51 <ehird> AnMaster: Achievement Unlocked
20:07:55 <ehird> AnMaster: also, I meant the grammar
20:08:09 <ehird> (Achievement Unlocked being a metagame)
20:08:16 <ehird> AnMaster: That was a joke, right?
20:08:29 <AnMaster> ehird, rather, I'm kind of tired
20:08:35 <Warrigal_> I have two mind-computer interfaces.
20:09:05 <AnMaster> <ehird> (Achievement Unlocked being a metagame) <-- link
20:09:24 <Warrigal_> One, the high-bandwidth one, transfers many megabytes of data every second.
20:09:42 <ehird> There is a game. You have to do things like die a lot, click the credits link, futz with the flash quality, scroll the achievements list, and kill yourself in other imaginative ways.
20:09:50 <ehird> And play for a certain amount of time, etc.
20:10:10 <Warrigal_> In fact, the limiting factor in using this interface is not its width but the brain's processing power.
20:10:31 <ehird> That doesn't transfer megabytes.
20:10:50 <AnMaster> ehird, no the neural data direct link
20:11:00 <ehird> No, he's talking about real ones.
20:11:18 <Warrigal_> The other one is the true limiting factor in using the computer. Its bandwidth is a mere seven bits per second.
20:11:34 <ehird> You can only type one key a second?
20:12:41 <Warrigal_> I am talking about the keyboard here.
20:12:48 <Warrigal_> The high-bandwidth interface is the monitor.
20:12:59 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:13:02 <AnMaster> that isn't megabytes per second
20:13:38 <ehird> It is megabytes per second.
20:13:47 <Warrigal_> If you encode data by coloring every pixel as either black or white, and you display a new screen every 500 milliseconds, that's megabytes per second.
20:13:48 <AnMaster> Warrigal_, lets see. How many chars per seconds do you type
20:13:58 <Warrigal_> I type at around 70 words per minute.
20:13:58 <ehird> AnMaster: 800x600x3 = 1.37MB
20:14:22 <Warrigal_> A word carries about 6 bits of information, according to sources I'm suddenly not inclined to believe.
20:14:33 <AnMaster> ehird, I was thinking along the lines of vector displays :P (retcon!)
20:15:11 <AnMaster> Warrigal_, well maybe it does. Don't know. But each char is nromally 8 bits wide
20:15:29 <AnMaster> which I'm not sure what it uses for PS/2 or USB
20:15:47 <fizzie> 372 seconds for a second achievement-unlocked run. That wasn't very fast.
20:15:49 <ehird> AnMaster: keyboards can only enter 7 bits
20:16:11 <ehird> fizzie: dayum you quick
20:16:11 <AnMaster> ehird, there are high level scan codes
20:16:43 <fizzie> Like Deewiant said, the last almost-a-minute was self-killing.
20:16:44 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:16:53 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc the browser backwards/forwards keys are reported as scan codes 247 and 248
20:17:22 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:17:45 <Warrigal_> I doubt that this keyboard has as many keys as there are printable ASCII characters.
20:17:52 <Warrigal_> And there are only 95 printable ASCII characters.
20:17:56 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
20:18:06 <AnMaster> Warrigal_, backspace and enter aren't printable
20:18:38 <fizzie> 104 or 105 is a typical number of keys nowadays; used to be 101/102, before the 2*win+menu keys were added.
20:19:34 <Warrigal_> sitttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
20:20:12 <Warrigal_> Which looks like an arpeggio that does G D B B B B B . . .
20:20:31 <GregorR-L> Wow, this macbook keyboard only has 79 keys ...
20:20:48 <AnMaster> well you drop keypad on laptop
20:21:00 <Warrigal_> But seriously, this is a laptop keyboard.
20:21:41 <AnMaster> depending on model you might drop more, like prtsc and such
20:21:49 <Warrigal_> If typing consisted of pressing random keys in sequence, I would be doing...
20:22:13 <AnMaster> too lazy to count them on my laptop
20:22:17 <Warrigal_> `calc log(88)/log(2) * 7 per second
20:22:19 <HackEgo> ((log(88) / log(2)) * 7) per second = 45.2160213 hertz
20:22:29 <Warrigal_> About 45 bits per second. Not bad.
20:22:33 * Sgeo wonders if it would be worth it to make a sort of PSOX thing that didn't use NULs and was more usable by, say, Taxi, for example
20:23:20 <Asztal> this mouse has a 16-bit wide data path and a polling rate of 1kHz, so I guess it's upwards of 16kbps?
20:23:25 <AnMaster> if anyone is interested I can upload a photo of the laptop keyboard
20:23:38 <AnMaster> Asztal, how do you know it is 16 bit wide?
20:23:45 <Asztal> because the specs say so
20:23:58 <AnMaster> unusual that they list that in specs
20:24:03 <Warrigal_> If you can jitter your mouse completely randomly, yeah.
20:24:26 <Asztal> AnMaster: they claim it's a feature (i.e. 12-bit ones can wrap around, or something)
20:24:36 <Warrigal_> Let me see you make your hand vibrate at 500 Hz.
20:24:37 <Asztal> if you move _really fast_, presumably
20:24:52 <Asztal> I'm not convinced either :)
20:24:57 <fizzie> 107 physical keys in this keyboard; it's close to the standard 105 key model, except only one Win key (-1), a "fn" key instead of menu (no change), scroll lock combined with pause/break (-1) and four non-standard volume control + backlight keys.
20:25:32 <AnMaster> Warrigal_, button presses, and I guess velocity
20:25:39 <Asztal> it also has a gold-plated USB connector... :/
20:25:57 <Asztal> but it's a good mouse, so I put up with some of the useless things
20:26:24 <ehird> [20:17] AnMaster: screen shot of this game
20:26:24 <ehird> elephant in coloured, blocky level
20:27:13 <fizzie> You can find a speedrun video in youtube, if you really care.
20:27:30 <ehird> AnMaster: http://armorgames.com/play/2893/achievement-unlocked
20:27:39 <ehird> you need a keyboard and a mouse.
20:27:57 <ehird> Razer is all for gamers.
20:27:59 <ehird> AnMaster: then why ask
20:28:03 <ehird> AnMaster: google it yourself
20:28:05 <fizzie> 301 seconds "really 267sec!", don't know what that means.
20:28:54 <fizzie> I think I did <300 the first time I retried immediately after the first try, but can't be sure.
20:30:30 <fizzie> It's still about the game; it shows you a completion percentage.
20:30:31 <Sgeo> ..ehird didn't have an aneurism?
20:33:58 <oklopol> because they are homonyms, and one means nothing?
20:35:23 <ehird> http://armorgames.com/play/2893/achievement-unlocked
20:35:45 <oklopol> well because if so, i might beat you later tonight
20:35:53 <ehird> fizzie: how did you kill yourself quickly?
20:35:55 <ehird> the spike thing is fastest
20:35:56 <oklopol> because i finished my book
20:35:58 <ehird> but the pit is more reliable
20:36:13 <oklopol> 0.23s is too short for getting into the pit isn't it
20:36:14 <ehird> oklopol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlelTzEFJ5w 107s
20:36:22 <Warrigal_> AnMaster: i and y are very similar letters, and I can't of anything else he might have meant.
20:36:34 <oklopol> i'm not interested in getting a world record
20:36:40 <oklopol> i'm interested in beating you
20:37:10 <ehird> oklopol: i suggest you map out a game plan
20:37:20 <oklopol> i mean i wouldn't even be interested in beating Deewiant or fizzie, probably, you i just happen to consider very beatable in stupid flash games
20:37:29 <ehird> incidentally how do you do the contra, i keep doing it when switching apps away
20:37:33 <oklopol> because you like it, you can't be good at it
20:37:37 <ehird> i get the arrows but what does b/a become
20:37:41 <oklopol> the first rule of flash games
20:37:55 <ehird> fizzie only got it like 20 seconds quicker :P
20:38:11 <fizzie> ehird: I think you press 'a'. At least I remember pressing a and getting it at exactly that keypress.
20:38:11 <Warrigal_> The first rule of Flash games is that you can't be good at Flash games that you like?
20:38:14 <ehird> so you gotsa beat him too
20:38:14 <oklopol> i'll try to fit in that space
20:38:26 <ehird> incidentally, if you click armor games on the menu that saves time
20:39:39 <fizzie> Not quite sure. Anyway, I've been killing myself with the moving spike thing, it just needs a bit of more concentration to target it better. Still, you can hit the upper spikes too if you miss the bottom of it.
20:45:05 <ehird> 331, spent the last 30 seconds sitting there staying alive though
20:45:12 <ehird> so 301s of actually doing things
20:45:25 -!- kar8nga has joined.
20:45:32 * ehird devises a game plan
20:49:05 <ehird> yay, I've got a good stat
20:49:18 <ehird> hoping to use the first 30 seconds to stay alive :P
20:50:07 <ehird> my gameplan gets me 27% at 20 seconds so far
20:51:29 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving").
20:52:23 <ehird> hee, I can pretty much get a 1 achievement / second ratio so far
20:53:05 <ehird> unfortunately due to the stupid time requirements I can't finish it under a certain time :D
20:57:52 <ehird> my gameplan now gets 39% at about 23 seconds with semi-casual playing
20:58:45 <ehird> oklopol: you will never beat me! mwahahaha
21:00:12 <ehird> ofc the real achievements come when you start to die xD
21:00:27 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:01:48 * ehird plays himself some dot action 2
21:01:58 <ehird> a positively relaxing game compared to Achievement Unlocked!
21:02:09 <ais523> I was making a mental guess as to whether it was ehird or AnMaster who said hi when I saw the nickping on the tab
21:02:17 <ais523> ehird: I don't know of either of them
21:02:34 <ehird> that's to be expected, they're Flas
21:02:46 <ehird> most of the far-too-addicting, tiny, simple games are Flash
21:04:32 <ais523> the very best have been a couple of lines of JS, though
21:05:26 <ais523> otherwise it isn't tiny and simple enough
21:05:40 <ehird> yes, but that doesn't make them fun.
21:05:45 <ais523> wow, I remember writing a massively complex game in client-side JS
21:05:58 <ais523> saving was via the password method, it gave you masses of obfuscated text that you copied into a text file and saved
21:06:35 <ehird> ais523: shoulda just done eval(urldecode("<<level=5>>"))
21:06:48 <ehird> or even eval(urldecode("<<gamestate={...}>>"))
21:07:00 <ehird> invisible to anyone who wouldn't otherwise be able to circumvent it, and quite short
21:07:01 <ais523> ehird: there was obfuscated JS that you evalled in there
21:07:08 <ais523> but it lead to the files being too large if it was used for everything
21:07:10 <ehird> yes, but you don't need to obfuscate it
21:07:14 <ehird> then eval.urldecode
21:07:19 <ais523> ehird: mine was base64ed, to save space
21:07:37 <ais523> although, an unusual sort of base64, I used ' and " as the non-alphanumerics because they didn't word-wrap
21:08:41 <ais523> the game still works, sort of, I started a new game yesterday
21:09:00 <AnMaster> * ehird plays himself some dot action 2 <-- tell me about that game
21:09:02 <ais523> but it's nowhere near releasable quality, and stopped working in Konqueror for no apparent reason
21:09:07 <ais523> it's a parody of Pokémon
21:09:10 <ais523> and probably not a very good one
21:09:13 <ehird> AnMaster: umm, you're a dude and there are a bunch of blocks; most are white which is ground
21:09:16 <ehird> you can go left, right and jump
21:09:19 <ehird> there are blue blocks
21:09:21 <ehird> you have to get all of them
21:09:23 <ehird> there are red block
21:09:31 <ehird> there are green blocks
21:09:35 <ehird> they flip the stage upside down
21:09:36 <ehird> there are red blocks
21:09:44 <ehird> they let you go through yellow blocks
21:09:46 <AnMaster> you mentioned the red ones already
21:09:47 <ehird> and there's other stuff too.
21:09:53 <ehird> AnMaster: i meant yellow the first time
21:10:11 <fizzie> I think someone said yellow's lava, though I always assumed electricity.
21:10:26 <ehird> but yeah, it's an electric fence
21:10:33 <ehird> AnMaster: also the red ones only last so long
21:10:36 <ehird> and the level only lasts so long
21:10:39 <ehird> and it gets really fucking hard.
21:10:41 <ehird> oh there's also water
21:10:45 <ehird> you float in it and go down and have to jump
21:10:46 <ehird> and you go slower.
21:10:58 <ehird> you just fall slowly
21:11:01 <ehird> and go left and right more slowly
21:11:04 <fizzie> 100 stages and wasn't there couple of extras.
21:11:18 <fizzie> I wonder how far I got; I think it must've been 98 or so.
21:11:34 <ehird> AnMaster: there's ones with like 100 blocks that you only get 40 seconds on
21:11:58 <AnMaster> is the achievement unlocked also time limited
21:12:16 <fizzie> No, the "score" is just the time you get.
21:13:11 <ehird> i don't imagine it's too complex
21:13:37 <fizzie> There's also that one stage in dot action where you have 999 seconds (I think it wasn't exactly a second) and 2744 dots to collect. Managed to run out of time in that.
21:14:14 <ehird> AnMaster: you have to do some things quickly though
21:14:19 <ehird> like the one where you have to die in the first second of a life, iirc
21:14:29 <ehird> but that's just jumping up twice quickly when the big spike passes
21:15:07 <AnMaster> I wonder if you could meta-game the meta gaming in that game
21:15:36 <fizzie> What oklo has to say about dot action 2: <oklopol> yes, competing with fizzie is fun. it would be fun to compete with him @ throwing dice and trying to get a lot of 20's. that doesn't make it a good game.
21:15:40 <ehird> Not unless you're xzibit.
21:15:50 <ehird> fizzie: oklopol is so pretentious though.
21:15:53 <ehird> he only likes boring games!
21:16:12 <fizzie> I don't think I passed 97, actually.
21:16:13 <ehird> Don't let your FACTS get in the way of my DISS.
21:16:53 <fizzie> Wait, or did I stop at 93 already. The logs are inconclusive.
21:17:01 <ehird> Just give us the cheat code!
21:17:08 <fizzie> [2008-11-23 15:12:06] < fizzie> Since ehird probably wants them codes, 086-754 gives the 101-108 list, while 809-936 gives the 1-100 list.
21:17:49 <ehird> You either have a very precise memory of dates, or are very good with grep.
21:18:29 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Connection timed out).
21:18:36 <fizzie> I did "grep -i dot action" to find the approximate time, then "grep fizzie 2008-* | grep 99".
21:18:51 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
21:20:12 <fizzie> I thought level 99 had been talked about. And indeed it had.
21:20:22 <fizzie> Though it also picked the "999 seconds" comments.
21:20:34 <fizzie> 92 was the annoying labyrinth, I did solve that.
21:21:49 <ehird> Is it just me, or does the music in Dot Action 2 reflect the level type?
21:22:05 <ehird> For instance, the "dang, dang dang dong" bass-y one seems to mean "ohnoes avoid electricity".
21:30:49 <ehird> the 1-second stage
21:37:09 <AnMaster> yay reached the castle in nethack
21:37:16 <AnMaster> ehird, what is your opinion on that
21:37:33 <AnMaster> play val, what is the best way to solve the castle in nethack
21:37:49 <AnMaster> ais523 may have an opinion too
21:38:02 <ehird> AnMaster seems to assume that everyone plays nethack
21:38:08 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:39:21 <ais523> AnMaster: do you have an instrument?
21:39:36 <AnMaster> ais523, yes. picked up a magic harp during the way
21:39:49 <AnMaster> so you suggest the bridge killing way
21:39:56 <ais523> yes, that's the best one if you can get away with it
21:40:10 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't have anything for the E word though
21:40:12 <ais523> assuming no monsters have a potion of acid on them, which is very unlikely, you can destroy the whole castle like that more or less
21:40:29 <ais523> and you don't need to elbereth your square, apart from monsters in the moat none of them will get near yo
21:40:38 <ais523> see a video of someone clearing the castle like that, and you'll get the idea
21:41:15 <ais523> xorns can't cross the moat
21:41:23 <ais523> and if you get two xorns against each other, one will fall in
21:41:37 <ais523> so once you finish clearing things out, there'll be nobody left but one xorn
21:41:42 <ais523> the moat is more of a problem
21:41:54 <ais523> you could freeze the squares apart from the one the drawbridge closes on, to stop eels going there
21:42:00 <ais523> or fill them with a scroll of earth from Sokoban
21:42:08 <AnMaster> ais523, don't have anything to freeze with
21:42:45 <AnMaster> ais523, what about earth <whatever the name was>
21:43:00 <AnMaster> but seems common on the castle
21:43:00 <ais523> you're unlikely to see one at the castle unless you're highly levelled
21:43:02 <ais523> and they're really slow anyway
21:43:32 <ais523> what have you been /doing/?
21:43:47 <ais523> farming, and you have no wands of cold or perm-E wands?
21:43:54 <ais523> you are the world's worst farmer...
21:44:02 <AnMaster> ais523, got destroyed in an accident
21:44:13 <fizzie> Oh, I'm sure you could find some cabbage farmers here in Finland with no wands of cold either.
21:44:28 <ais523> anyway, at level 27, you don't need a strategy for clearing the castle!
21:44:37 <ais523> fizzie: that's because cabbages don't drop items when they die
21:44:48 <AnMaster> ais523, wand of polymorph on the whole loot by mistake
21:45:22 <ais523> I'm pretty sure I'm correct about the cabbages
21:45:27 <ais523> if I'm not, let's use it as a new source of manufacturing
21:45:34 <AnMaster> ais523, luckily I genocided liches
21:45:46 <AnMaster> otherwise I would have been in large trouble by now
21:47:00 <ais523> yay, Ubuntu finally committed a fix to the beeps-on-shutdown thing
21:47:37 <ais523> several times, for no apparent reason
21:47:58 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't know
21:48:15 <ais523> I don't know, I assume it's attached to the bug report
21:48:21 <AnMaster> ais523, where is the bug report!?
21:48:40 <ais523> ah, https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/290204
21:51:36 <ais523> no obvious fix attached to it, though
21:52:01 <AnMaster> ais523, mine didn't beep at all
21:52:26 <AnMaster> don't think it *has* a pc-speaker though
21:52:29 <ais523> AnMaster: the bug is apparently in gnome-session, and possibly xfce-session
21:52:37 <AnMaster> but it is definitely using the speakers
21:52:47 <AnMaster> since hardware muting turns off all sound
21:52:49 <ais523> well, that would explain why you don't hear the PC speaker beep, then
21:53:09 <AnMaster> ais523, I do use gnome on the laptop
21:55:00 <ais523> I use KDE and Gnome mixed up here
21:55:18 <ais523> Compiz, but with Gnome in charge
21:55:50 <AnMaster> ais523, "beep" to beep pc speaker works
21:56:12 <ais523> obviously you're using a complex software emulation of a simple hardware beep, tehn
21:56:17 <ais523> sort of an abstraction inversion
21:56:40 <AnMaster> I think the BIOS or something emulates it
21:57:13 <AnMaster> why: because it is the exact same sound as "invalid key press in BIOS setup"
21:57:15 <ehird> fizzie: oklopol: 270 finished, 300 clear (exactly)
21:57:19 <ehird> extra time is 30 seconds staying alive
21:57:49 <AnMaster> ehird, 30 seconds staying alive?
21:57:57 <ehird> That's one of the achievements.
21:58:38 <ehird> It involves sitting there after dying.
21:58:40 <ehird> Or doing productive stuff.
21:59:23 <AnMaster> ehird, is number of lives limited?
21:59:39 <ehird> A lot of the achievements involve dying. :P
21:59:47 <AnMaster> btw there was some sort of death robin on NAO
21:59:54 <ehird> Anyway, I'm aiming to get the 30 seconds thing at the start by doing all the non-dangerous things.
21:59:59 <AnMaster> I played that once or twice iirc
22:00:11 <ais523> some day I want to get it killed by Vlad
22:00:20 <AnMaster> ais523, is that missing in it?
22:00:22 <ais523> DeathRobin's the only account you could do that on without dying of eternal embarassment
22:00:36 <AnMaster> ais523, is it hard to be killed by Vlad?
22:00:49 <ais523> ehird: death, because it's trying to die in as many ways as possible
22:00:54 <ais523> robin, because anyone can use the account
22:01:09 <ais523> there are a huge number of ways to die in NetHack, trying to use /all/ of them is several years of work
22:01:23 <AnMaster> ais523, so is it hard to get killed by vlad
22:01:33 <ais523> AnMaster: it's hard to reach him, he's pretty deep in the game
22:01:38 <AnMaster> ais523, I remember falling of a horse into a beartrap
22:01:40 <ais523> also, he's famous as the wimpiest boss in NetHack
22:01:50 <AnMaster> don't think it said I was falling of the hourse when I did die of the beartrap
22:02:05 <ais523> he's not bad in absolute terms, just you have to be massively powerful to even reach him, and when you do he's a pushover
22:02:11 <AnMaster> ais523, I know he is hard to reach
22:02:20 <AnMaster> but when I get there I'm generally level 29 or so
22:02:43 <ais523> AnMaster: most people don't level up that far in an entire game, but wizards
22:02:48 <ais523> he's a pushover even at level 14, though
22:02:58 <AnMaster> <ais523> AnMaster: most people don't level up that far in an entire game, but wizards <-- wizards do level up that far? Hm
22:03:08 <ais523> AnMaster: because it helps their spellcasting
22:03:18 <ais523> as a valk, going beyond 14 is inadvisable because it helps the monsters more than it helps you
22:03:23 <ais523> (harder monsters spawn the more powerful you are)
22:03:53 <ais523> anyway, I was working on gcc-bf recently
22:04:19 * ais523 watches AnMaster's receding form
22:04:22 <AnMaster> * Now talking on #feather-lang
22:04:40 <ais523> wtf: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Minimal
22:04:52 <ais523> it's exactly the same as BF, except it doesn't have [ or ]
22:05:00 <AnMaster> ais523, tell me about what new stuff happened to gcc-bf
22:05:00 <ais523> and its author has claimed it TC, and hasn't even mentioned BF in the article
22:05:22 <ais523> AnMaster: fixed comparisons to actually work, left-shift now works, so does subtraction on things wider than chars
22:05:35 <ais523> and, fwiw, addition on things wider than chars
22:06:21 <ais523> also, a major increase in pointer handling
22:06:23 <pikhq_> ais523: So, does "Hello, world!" work? ;)
22:06:34 <AnMaster> turned out that while the design was much better than "before", it was still quite bad
22:06:42 <ais523> it does if you bypass the stdlib, and has for ages
22:07:00 <ais523> although putchar crashes somewhere in the line-buffering code
22:07:09 <pikhq_> ais523: I mean: int main(){printf("Hello, world!\n");}
22:07:21 <ais523> neither putchar or sprintf works yet
22:07:45 <ais523> well, sprintf /possibly/ works, last time I tried to run it it went in to what looked like an infinite loop
22:07:51 <ais523> but it might just have been a very slow finite loop
22:08:08 <pikhq_> ais523: So, basically, it's only slightly more capable than C2BF.
22:08:20 <ais523> pikhq_: no, it's a lot more capable but a lot buggier
22:08:33 <ais523> as in, it should be able to handle such code, just doesn't atm due to bugs
22:08:40 <ais523> I gave up when I got an 'unmatched [' error
22:08:49 <ais523> which really shocks me, htf can that happen in generated code?
22:09:44 <pikhq_> I suspect that's indicative of a lot of your problems.
22:09:46 <ais523> I think the interpreter's OK
22:10:01 <ais523> I'm trying to get it to be the first program in the world that's truly Splint-clean, but it's hard
22:10:08 <ais523> you have to be pedantic to well beyond typical programming levels
22:10:36 <AnMaster> ais523, what about splint itself
22:10:56 <AnMaster> splint is mostly dead software iirc
22:11:02 <ais523> splint's author offered quite a hefty prize to anyone who could write a truly splint-clean program, it's that pedantic
22:11:43 <AnMaster> ais523, a splint clean hello world shouldn't be hard
22:11:53 <ais523> AnMaster: he said serious program, IIRC
22:12:22 <ais523> "A spe‐cial reward will be presented to the first person to produce a real program that produces no errors with strict checking."
22:12:29 <ehird> doesn't sound monetary
22:12:35 <ehird> or I'd write a splint-clean IRC client
22:12:49 <ais523> ehird: it warns of all sorts of things
22:12:58 <ehird> ais523: so what? I'll fix them
22:13:00 <ehird> tedious rather than hard
22:13:03 <ehird> an IRC client requires no trickery at all
22:13:04 <ais523> at the highest levels, it complains of things like not having and documenting a consistent variable naming scheme
22:13:18 <Deewiant> How can it detect whether it's documented
22:13:26 <ais523> Deewiant: you have to document it in splint format
22:13:34 <ehird> ais523: I don't think you realise that I only have impatience for unchanging things
22:13:39 <ehird> anything that has variation can never bore me
22:13:48 <ehird> well, unless I don't enjoy doing it
22:13:50 <ehird> I enjoy programming, so
22:14:03 <ais523> /usr/include/ctype.h:146:25: Declaration parameter has name: __c
22:14:06 <pikhq_> ais523: How pedantic *is* it?
22:14:20 <ehird> So I'll write my own ctype.h or not use it.
22:14:21 <ais523> it's worried that another header file included before ctype.h might do #define __c foo
22:14:45 <ais523> which is technically legal, as it's a header and can uses whatever definitions it likes, especially if they have __ there
22:14:54 <ais523> AnMaster: most people disagree with it a lot sooner
22:14:55 <pikhq_> So, it sounds like the only way to do splint-clean C involves writing a libc.
22:15:00 <Deewiant> ais523: Can't that happen for every identifier? What would it accept?
22:15:14 <ais523> /usr/include/ctype.h:58:26: Left operand of << may be negative (int): (1 << (8)) << 8
22:15:22 <ais523> there's also the simply incorrect warnings you have to fix, too
22:15:34 <ehird> Deewiant: Assume a 0.5-bit signed integer type.
22:15:43 <pikhq_> #error "Predefined __c."
22:15:49 <ehird> Deewiant: (1 << 8)
22:15:52 <ehird> that could easily be negative, maybe
22:16:01 <ais523> even funnier, it's warning about stuff which is potentially implementation-defined
22:16:08 <ais523> in /system header files/
22:16:27 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
22:16:29 <AnMaster> ais523, so don't use system header files
22:16:51 <Deewiant> Complaining about anything at all in system header files seems a bit pointless
22:17:27 <ehird> Meh, now I've got to do it
22:17:32 <ehird> Do you think an IRC client counts as real?
22:17:59 <Deewiant> Just grab something existing and make it work
22:18:37 <Deewiant> You never finish anything anyway
22:18:38 <fizzie> I don't think it can be negative in very standard C's, given that C89 INT_MAX must be at least 32767. Not that splint would let you assume any standard, of course.
22:18:41 <ais523> int putchar(int c); int main(void) { (void) putchar('\n'); return 0; }
22:18:45 <Deewiant> At least that way you can get started
22:18:46 <ais523> that gives 6 warnings, amazingly
22:18:57 <AnMaster> ais523, what are those warnings
22:19:14 <ais523> one is 'putchar exported but not defined in header file'
22:19:21 <Deewiant> Casting to void instead of checking return value?
22:19:23 <ais523> another is 'putchar declared but not defined'
22:19:34 <ais523> Deewiant: no, it's happy with doing that, the cast to void says you don't want the return value
22:19:42 <ehird> fizzie: (1 << 8) can be negative
22:19:47 <ehird> 're assuming 2s-complement
22:19:54 <ais523> also, it complains that the name 'putchar' is reserved for the standard library
22:19:59 <Deewiant> ais523: I know, but it sounds anal enough to not be happy
22:20:08 <AnMaster> so you need to include the system header
22:20:24 <ehird> no, just rewrite the system headers
22:20:26 <ais523> ehird: no, int must be at least 16 bits, 1 is positive, left-shifting of positive numbers is defined arithmetically no matter what encoding you're using
22:20:28 <pikhq> You need to write your own system header.
22:20:53 <ais523> my favourite warning of all is that putchar was not documented to possibly modify the file system
22:21:21 <ais523> ehird: modifying the file system is fine; but you have to document it when you do it
22:21:24 <fizzie> Yes, I'm just assuming what C89 lets me assume about <<.
22:21:36 <AnMaster> ehird, splint fails on C99 btw
22:21:37 <fizzie> Namely, that (1 << 8) will end up as 256.
22:21:54 <ehird> fizzie: 256 << something could be negative!
22:22:06 <fizzie> That's not what it's complaining about, though.
22:22:08 <Deewiant> ehird: "Left operand of << may be negative"
22:22:38 <fizzie> Maybe it's the 1 it's concerned about.
22:22:46 <AnMaster> <ais523> /usr/include/ctype.h:58:26: Left operand of << may be negative (int): (1 << (8)) << 8 <-- so either 1 or (1 << (8))
22:23:03 <ais523> AnMaster: at least it wasn't "parse error"
22:23:06 <ais523> and no, the parens are matched there
22:23:26 <ehird> i'm going to write a bloated, splint-clean hello world now
22:23:27 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:23:39 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... You can't assume the bit representation of anything.
22:23:42 <ais523> ehird: I'm not even sure it's possible to write a splint-clean hello world without writing your own OS
22:23:51 <ehird> AnMaster: it's called practice
22:24:00 <ehird> pikhq: no, c89 specifies it
22:24:04 <pikhq> Making the bitshift operator the SINGLE WORST OPERATOR. :P
22:24:09 <pikhq> ehird: Fair enough.
22:24:15 <ais523> pikhq: c89 specifies bit representation down to three possibilities
22:24:18 <ehird> ais523: what's the command line to make splint the most inane tool possible?
22:24:34 <Deewiant> ais523: Wait, how does it know whether putchar is from a system header or not
22:24:37 <ehird> splint -v -v -v -v --V-DAMMIT --i-hate-myself-with-a-fiery-passion --no-i-mean-really
22:24:41 <fizzie> What, no "--really-strict --really-very-strict --no-really-I-mean-it-strict".
22:24:42 <Deewiant> Whether it's declared in stdio.h or not?
22:24:49 <ais523> fizzie: most of the flags are turning warnings off
22:25:02 <ais523> Deewiant: it preprocesses code then lints the result
22:25:07 <pikhq> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Minimal Out of immense curiosity, how the fuck is this Turing complete?
22:25:11 <pikhq> I need to execute someone.
22:25:28 <ais523> whoever wrote the article was lying, obviously
22:25:34 <pikhq> ais523: "Execute someone".
22:25:46 <ehird> hello.c:5:5: Called procedure puts may access file system state, but globals
22:25:47 <ehird> list does not include globals fileSystem
22:25:47 <ehird> A called function uses internal state, but the globals list for the function
22:25:47 <Deewiant> ais523: Say you're writing a C library and want to define putchar, what do you do
22:25:47 <ehird> being checked does not include internalState (Use -internalglobs to inhibit
22:25:54 <ehird> thanks for telling me how to fix that, splint!
22:26:12 * ehird actually handles puts' return value
22:26:17 <ais523> Deewiant: give it a bunch of annotations, and don't name the arguments
22:26:24 <ais523> Deewiant: well, you know of stdio, I assume
22:26:30 <ais523> it uses buffering, generally
22:26:32 <ehird> ais523: does --strict enforce the variable naming thing?
22:26:43 <ais523> and you can't mess with the stdio buffer without letting it know
22:26:46 <pikhq> Deewiant: It wants it to be purely functional.
22:26:48 <ais523> ehird: oh, good point, it doesn't
22:26:53 <ehird> ais523: well then!
22:26:57 <Deewiant> I thought it meant like the ST monad
22:27:13 <Deewiant> Which would have been exceedingly odd in an imperative language
22:27:40 <ais523> ehird: it's not on the man page
22:27:46 <ais523> and I can't remember where the full docs are
22:27:53 <ais523> I think it was an optional "you can enforce this if you want"
22:28:02 <fizzie> Just a guess: http://www.splint.org/manual/
22:28:42 <ais523> ehird: ah, http://www.splint.org/manual/html/sec12.html explains the naming convention stuff
22:29:05 <ehird> Czech names seem quite anal
22:29:22 <ehird> Using +distinct-external-names sets the number of significant characters for external names to six and makes alphabetical case insignificant for external names. This is the minimum significance acceptable in an ANSI-conforming compiler
22:29:30 <ehird> that's not default? :O
22:29:39 <fizzie> Try to get both the Czech names as well as Namespace prefixes done in the same program.
22:30:33 <ehird> "If access-czech is on, the representation of the type is visible in the constant or variable definition."
22:30:57 <ehird> ais523: ok, how do I tell it that no, something doesn't modify the filesystem?
22:31:07 <ais523> that it doesn't, or that it does?
22:31:33 <fizzie> Actually I don't think there's a prefix flag for just normal auto-variable vars, or struct members, or any other such widely used things, so I guess you can get both with no too bad restrictions.
22:31:43 <ais523> /*@ modifies nothing @*/
22:31:52 <AnMaster> ehird, hello.c:5:5: Programmer is claiming this doens
22:31:56 <ais523> you can use internalState or fileSystem there if it modifies one of those
22:32:03 <AnMaster> doesn't* modify anything, but I don't believe that!
22:32:12 <ehird> ais523: before a declaration I assume?
22:32:29 <fizzie> Yes, I don't think you can put /*@ modifies nothing @*/ in if you're actually using puts there.
22:32:31 <ais523> ehird: no, just before the semicolon
22:32:42 <ehird> ais523: but if I want to make it global?
22:32:43 <ais523> or just before the {} block if it's on a definition
22:32:53 <ehird> "puts never modifies the filesystem"
22:33:08 <ais523> ehird: then you put it on the declaration of puts
22:33:17 <ais523> and if you can't get at the declaration of puts, that's your problem
22:33:30 <ehird> if (puts("Hello, world!") /*@ modifies nothing @*/ == EOF) {
22:33:40 <ais523> ehird: that's on the use
22:33:43 <ehird> ais523: I'm going to enable namespace prefixes too
22:33:44 <ais523> you have to put it on the declaration
22:33:56 <ehird> "no, just before the semicolon"
22:34:00 <ehird> I don't want to lie!
22:34:18 <ais523> as in, int puts(const char *) /*@ modifies nothing @*/ ;
22:34:20 <ehird> ais523: this enforces constness right?
22:34:30 <ais523> ehird: you have to annotate the argument to puts too
22:34:30 <AnMaster> or even better what ais523 said
22:34:33 <fizzie> Just don't lie, and put the necessary "modifies" annotations to your own function; what's wrong with that?
22:34:39 <ehird> ais523: :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
22:34:43 <ais523> in this case, it would be (const char * /*@ observer @*/)
22:34:47 <ehird> fizzie: But puts doesn't externally modify a thing.
22:34:51 <ehird> ais523: Observer?!
22:34:55 <ais523> which means "I only look at the (non-null) data pointed to here, and don't modify it"
22:35:00 <ehird> ahahahahahahahahah
22:35:08 <ais523> there are a huge number of annotations like that, and between them they don't cover all the possibilities
22:35:13 <pikhq> ehird: It writes to a file descriptor.
22:35:17 <pikhq> ZOMG, that might be a file.
22:35:20 <AnMaster> ehird, see why doing a non-trivial splint clean program is insane?
22:35:27 <ais523> ehird: fileSystem includes stdin and stdout
22:35:46 <ais523> + turns an option on, - turns it off
22:36:04 <ehird> ais523: OK, so I don't want modifies nothing
22:36:14 <ehird> So I annotate main as modifying fileSystem?
22:36:17 <ais523> yep, you want modifies fileSystem, internalState
22:36:21 <ais523> and annotate main the same way, yes
22:36:25 <ehird> and therefore, I don't need to do the declaration with observer
22:36:32 <fizzie> http://www.splint.org/manual/html/manual-301_files/image003.gif oo, science!
22:36:40 <ehird> it didn't complain about it to me beforehand
22:36:54 <pikhq> All this convinces me that there needs to be a better C.
22:36:55 * ehird starts putting {s on their own line to fit everything
22:36:58 <ehird> and to make it EXTRA CLEAR!
22:37:15 <ais523> ehird: you get that a lot
22:37:26 <ais523> just you wait until you end up annotating what happens to every field in a structure, separately
22:37:37 <ais523> also, annotating buffers to make sure they don't overflow
22:37:49 <ais523> and then watching in horror as splint fails to make perfectly sensible deductions from what you've written
22:37:50 <ehird> i'm not agitated one bit yet
22:37:58 <fizzie> The deallocator, free, is declared: void free (/*@only@*/ /*@out@*/ /*@null@*/ void *ptr);
22:38:03 <ais523> I've had to write helper functions before now, for no purpose but putting constraints on them
22:38:12 <ais523> fizzie: I get all that, except the out
22:38:49 <fizzie> "To check that allocated objects are completely destroyed (e.g., all unshared objects inside a structure are deallocated before the structure is deallocated), Splint checks that any parameter passed as an out only void * does not contain references to live, unshared objects. This makes sense, since such a parameter could not be used sensibly in any way other than deallocating its storage."
22:38:53 <fizzie> It may be related to that.
22:39:01 * ehird defines every single namespace thingy
22:39:19 <ehird> Any variable declared inside a macro body"
22:39:20 <ais523> fizzie: ah, 'out' means something entirely different on something marked 'only'?
22:39:25 <ehird> Hey, that's pretty cool actually.
22:39:36 <pikhq> ais523: Free can modify what that points to. Granted, "modification" means "removing page table entries" in this case. ;)
22:39:41 <ehird> How about "macro_".
22:39:46 <ehird> Then it'll be, I think, int_macro_x
22:40:05 <ehird> unchecked-macro-prefix
22:40:05 <ehird> Any macro that is not checked as a function or constant (see Section 11.4)
22:40:09 <ehird> what does that mean
22:40:21 <ais523> ehird: you can mark macros as constant-like or function-like
22:40:30 <ais523> if you have a macro that does something else, you have to name it oddly
22:40:43 <ehird> ais523: well why would I have a macro that does something else? that's not maintainable!
22:40:48 <ehird> (is there a way to make it yell at you for doing that?)
22:41:02 <ais523> ehird: use a namespace prefix more than 6 characters long?
22:41:13 <ehird> ais523: that's for external names
22:41:16 <ehird> don't you know anything?!
22:41:19 <ais523> and I was being facetious
22:41:23 <AnMaster> CFUN_FINGER_MODU_GENERATE_FUNC(X, 50)
22:41:28 <AnMaster> CFUN_FINGER_MODU_GENERATE_FUNC(X, 10)
22:41:31 <fizzie> Ooh, there's annotations for reference-counted structs.
22:41:31 <ehird> THAT IS NOT MAINTAINABLE
22:41:40 <ehird> Write all the functions out by hand.
22:41:43 <AnMaster> ehird, well that is "other" macro
22:41:48 <ehird> ais523: I'll name them UNSAFE_NAME
22:42:09 <ais523> I think the intended use of splint is not to obey all the rules, but rather to document where you break them
22:42:17 <ehird> I will never do that.
22:42:33 <ehird> Tags for struct, union and enum declarations
22:42:45 <ais523> ehird: no, name and tag are different in C
22:42:46 <pikhq> ehird: /*@notfunction@*/
22:42:58 <ais523> it's a rather complicated distinction that rarely comes up
22:43:06 <ehird> ais523: but it's the thing in struct foo, right?
22:43:24 <ais523> it's very common to do things like typedef struct tag_foo { ...} foo;
22:43:33 <ais523> so you have a struct called struct tag_foo
22:43:36 <ais523> which can also just be called foo
22:43:37 <ehird> instead of tag_foo
22:43:40 <fizzie> ais523: "Storage reachable from reference need not be defined." is what 'out' means; I guess it sort-of makes sense in free, even without only.
22:43:42 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc typedef struct foo { ... } foo; works too?
22:43:53 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, but that drives managers mad for no apparent reason
22:44:00 <ais523> probably because you're using the same word in two different namespaces
22:44:16 <AnMaster> ais523, for the same *object* though
22:44:32 <ais523> you are thinking insufficiently like a manager here
22:44:40 <fizzie> Was that thing special-cased in C++, though? Since there the struct-tag and typedef namespaces are the same, unless I recall worng.
22:44:44 <AnMaster> also different name spaces are for allow collisions
22:44:49 <ais523> fizzie: C++ uses different rules
22:44:56 <ais523> they are the same namespace there, just to add to the fun
22:45:13 <ehird> ais523: so far, the only part of splint annoying me is writing an anal command line
22:45:22 <ais523> ehird: you can use a response file instead
22:45:31 <ais523> and I agree, trying to splintproof things is kind-of fun
22:45:38 <ais523> I don't find it annoying, I just find it impossible
22:45:55 <ehird> reading splint docs
22:46:43 <AnMaster> ehird, what is your current command line
22:47:20 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, but the "typedef struct foo { ... } foo;" is indeed a special-case in the C++ standard: "In a given non-class scope, a typedef specifier can be used to redefine the name of any type declared in that scope to refer to the type to which it already refers. [same struct example + others]"
22:47:38 <ehird> AnMaster: % splint +strict +distinct-external-names +czech-fcns +czech-vars +czech-constants +czech-macros +czech-types -macro-var-prefix macro_ +macro-var-prefix-exclude -unchecked-macro-prefix "~*" +unchecked-macro-prefix-exclude -tag-prefix "tag_&*" +tag-prefix-exclude +type-prefix " hello.c
22:47:39 <fizzie> ais523: I mean, without that you'd get a problem with redefining the "foo" type.
22:48:05 <ehird> All non-function, non-constant macros must be UPPERCASE.
22:48:25 <ehird> ais523: type_foo or foo_t?
22:48:31 <ehird> i'm considering using camelcase to fit it all in
22:48:38 <ehird> ais523: that's inconsistent with tag_!
22:48:55 <ehird> typedef struct tagHello { ... } typeHello;
22:48:57 <ehird> who doesn't love that?!
22:48:57 <ais523> actually, I've seen people use trailing underscores instead of tag_ before
22:49:04 <ais523> ehird: who would use a struct just for hellos?
22:49:10 <ehird> SPLINT USERS!!!!!!!!!
22:49:22 <ehird> Slovak names are similar to Czech names, except they are spelled differently. A Slovak name is of the form <type><Name>. The type prefix may not use uppercase characters. The remainder of the name starts with the first uppercase character.
22:49:28 <fizzie> I've seen the trailing underscore thing too, it must be reasonably widespread.
22:49:47 <AnMaster> ehird, -unchecked-macro-prefix "~*" is invalid C. first letter can
22:49:49 <ehird> "If access-czech is on, a function, variable, constant or iterator named <type>_<name> has access to the abstract type <type>."
22:50:00 <fizzie> And of course also the "typedef struct foo_s { ... } foo_t;" variant.
22:50:01 <ehird> AnMaster: Uhh, yeah, but the compiler rejects that.
22:50:03 <AnMaster> ~ is defined as "Any character that is not a lowercase letter (allows uppercase letters, digits and underscore)"
22:50:22 <AnMaster> ehird, clearly you should try to use the most exact form possible
22:50:43 <AnMaster> if you are going splint clean, go for "splint command line being exact" too
22:50:45 <ehird> hmm, macroFoo isn't explicit
22:50:48 <ehird> it should be macroVarFoo
22:50:49 <ais523> AnMaster: you'll get a parse error if you try to start an identifier with a digit, thus you won't need to mention it in your naming conventions
22:50:53 <ehird> or macroVariableFoo
22:51:00 <ais523> ehird: but that has a capital outside the leading portions
22:51:06 <ehird> ais523: that is the leading portion
22:51:08 <ais523> it would have to be macrovarFoo
22:51:18 <ais523> ehird: the leading portion is the portion of continuous lowercase
22:51:21 <ais523> according to that guide
22:51:28 <ehird> ais523: yes, but I'm defining these
22:51:30 <ehird> so they don't count
22:51:37 <ehird> it'll be either intMacroVariableFoo or macroVariableIntFoo at the end, I think
22:51:38 <AnMaster> ais523, still I think going for as exact expressions as possible is a great goal
22:51:39 <ais523> does splint agree with you on that?
22:51:42 <ehird> macroVariable is a bit of a mouthful
22:51:50 <ehird> is macroVar better or just too obscure to understand?!
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22:52:39 <ais523> ehird: you /are/ going to call the types onespot, twospot, etc, aren't you
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22:53:00 <nooga> any ideas where can i get simple wordlists for various natural languages?
22:53:10 <nooga> by simple i mean just raw list of words from a to z
22:53:13 <ais523> nooga: install linux, download them via a package manager
22:53:18 <AnMaster> nooga, /usr/share/dict possibly
22:53:26 <AnMaster> mine contains English and Swedish
22:53:31 <nooga> like aspell's ones?
22:53:36 <AnMaster> install the relevant package with your package mananger
22:53:46 <AnMaster> nooga, seems like a plausible source
22:53:52 <ehird> % splint +strict +distinct-external-names +slovak +access-slovak +slovak-fcns +slovak-vars +slovak-constants +slovak-macros +slovak-types -macro-var-prefix "macroVar^&*" +macro-var-prefix-exclude -unchecked-macro-prefix "~*" +unchecked-macro-prefix-exclude -tag-prefix "tag^&*" -enum-prefix "enum^&*" +enum-prefix-exclude +tag-prefix-exclude -type-prefix "type^&*" +type-prefix-exclude -file-static-prefix "static^&*" +file-static-prefix-exclude hello.c
22:54:09 <AnMaster> ehird, store that in a response file or shell script
22:54:18 <ehird> what's a response file anyway
22:54:29 <ehird> Any variable (not of function type) with global scope
22:54:30 <AnMaster> ais523, a text file listing all the commands
22:54:42 <ehird> AnMaster, someone who can't address the right person
22:54:48 <ehird> We're all text files and people here.
22:55:03 <ehird> ais523: constFoo or constantFoo
22:55:05 <nooga> but aslepp wordlists contain full of weird characters and shit
22:55:07 <ehird> const could be mistaken for the declaration
22:55:21 <ehird> constPi, I mean, it could be a constant parameter called Pi, couldn't it?
22:55:28 <ehird> Whereas constantPi, well, you know where you are.
22:55:32 <AnMaster> splint -foo file_with_one_parameter_value_pair_per_line
22:55:46 <AnMaster> same as response file elsewhere
22:55:49 <ehird> An iterator (see Section 11.4)
22:55:51 <ehird> is that like i,j,k?
22:56:10 <ais523> ehird: not sure, possibly
22:56:23 <AnMaster> nooga, some languages uses weird chars
22:56:34 <ehird> It is often useful to be able to execute the same code for many different values. For example, we may want to sum all elements in an intSet that represents a set of integers. If intSet is an abstract type, there is no easy way of doing this in a client module without depending on the concrete representation of the type. Instead, we could provide such a mechanism as part of the type’s implementation. We call a mechanism for looping through many values an
22:56:41 <ehird> 11.4.1 Defining Iterators
22:56:41 <ehird> An iterator is defined using a macro. Here’s one (not particularly efficient) way of defining intSet_elements:
22:56:44 <ehird> oh god, it's awful
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22:57:04 <ehird> intSet_elements(foo,x)
22:57:07 <ehird> end_intSet_elements
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22:57:22 <ehird> http://www.splint.org/manual/html/sec11.html
22:57:24 <ais523> Splint: checking all design patterns, even the awful ones!
22:57:24 <ehird> it's a macro that iterates!
22:57:35 <ehird> well, it's more abstracted than int i = 0; etc
22:57:38 <ehird> but it's not good C :D
22:57:50 <ais523> the correct method would be using a function pointer callback
22:57:56 <ehird> "proto-param-prefix
22:57:56 <ehird> A parameter in a function declaration prototype"
22:58:04 <ais523> ehird: but you can't put anything there
22:58:10 <ais523> in case it conflicts with a definition in a header file
22:58:15 <ais523> it's splint's most common inane warning
22:58:23 <ehird> after all, param could be mistaken for pram
22:58:30 <ehird> think of a high-tech baby pram
22:58:33 <ehird> controlled by a computer
22:58:42 <ehird> what if we passed it a pram test instead of the parameter test?
22:58:47 <ais523> ehird: you need to call one of your parameters "againt", now
22:58:54 <ehird> AnMaster: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bc/Pram.jpg
22:58:57 <ais523> AnMaster: it's a device for moving babies around while they're asleep
22:59:10 <ehird> Any exported identifier"
22:59:21 * ehird doesn't set that one
22:59:29 <AnMaster> didn't know the English word for it
22:59:51 <ehird> ais523: what's the option for a response file
22:59:56 <AnMaster> would be a literal translation yes
23:00:01 <ais523> ehird: probably @, it is in most programs
23:00:20 <ehird> the dashes in splint options
23:00:23 <ehird> are actually stripped out
23:00:28 <ehird> they're just there for readability
23:00:34 <ais523> like dots in gmail addresses?
23:01:01 <ehird> what should I call it, opts.splint?
23:01:12 <ehird> AnMaster: a.b@gmail.com = ab@gmail.com
23:01:18 <AnMaster> ehird, that could be mistaken for an opt!
23:01:49 * ehird considers making a constant UPPERCASE instead
23:01:53 <ehird> and changing the macro convention
23:02:08 <AnMaster> ehird, good work bikeshedding with yourself :D
23:02:22 <ehird> Command Line: Unrecognized option: -@
23:02:22 <ehird> A flag is not recognized or used in an incorrect way (Use -badflag to inhibit
23:02:57 <ais523> hmm... splint appears to have no 'read options from this file' option
23:03:02 <ais523> I've just been scouring the docs for one
23:03:08 <ais523> you could use backquotes instead, though
23:03:37 <AnMaster> splint $(< options.splint) foo,c
23:03:56 <ais523> AnMaster: that's a bashism
23:04:05 <ais523> splint `cat options.splint` foo.c is the sh equivalent
23:04:08 <AnMaster> ais523, pretty sure it is a kshism too
23:04:35 <ais523> probably doesn't in ash, though, or busybox sh
23:05:18 <AnMaster> ais523, they aren't POSIX compilant
23:05:26 <AnMaster> because pretty much everything that ksh does is POSIX
23:05:48 <ais523> AnMaster: ash /is/ POSIX compliant
23:06:20 <AnMaster> The general format for redirecting input is:
23:07:37 <AnMaster> ais523, so yes ash should support it if it conforms to POSIX.1-2008 at least
23:07:49 <AnMaster> but pretty sure same applies there
23:08:03 <ais523> AnMaster: you're muddling two things there
23:08:07 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't have ash installed
23:08:16 <ais523> AnMaster: you have an ubuntu system, don't you?
23:08:19 <ais523> it's the default sh on them
23:08:25 <AnMaster> ais523, well yes, but it is turned off atm
23:08:39 <ais523> anyway, < redirects input
23:08:50 <ais523> so, say, cat < /dev/random redirects /dev/random to cat's input
23:09:01 <ais523> AnMaster: what says that? POSIX? I doubt it somehow
23:09:35 <AnMaster> ais523, can you test it in ash
23:10:05 <ais523> $ echo `< /etc/passwd`
23:10:10 <ais523> not what I expected at all...
23:10:15 <ais523> no error message, but no output either
23:10:31 <ais523> same, no output, just another prompt
23:10:42 <ais523> whereas cat /etc/passwd gives me /etc/passwd
23:10:55 <ais523> as does cat < /etc/passwd
23:14:51 <ais523> AnMaster: < /etc/passwd was also empty
23:15:00 <ais523> also, why are you surprised at stacking heredocs being valid?
23:15:21 <ais523> I thought it was common knowledge...
23:15:28 <AnMaster> ais523, used one at a time only
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23:37:34 <ehird> ok, now splint is complaining about my command line
23:37:44 <ehird> Command Line: Setting macrovarprefix to string beginning with ". You probably
23:37:44 <ehird> don't meant to have the "'s.
23:37:54 <ehird> ais523: $(cat foo) has the contents as one argument, I think
23:38:05 <ehird> or at least, "" doesn't work
23:38:05 <ais523> no, that only happens if you put quotes around it
23:38:12 <ais523> maybe I'm wrong though
23:38:20 <ehird> well, "foo" in the file gets through literally
23:38:24 <ehird> I guess \ might work
23:38:31 <ehird> if i need to do multi-words
23:38:56 <ehird> Spec file not found: global^&*.lcl
23:38:56 <ehird> Cannot open file: global^&*.c
23:39:27 <ehird> LCL [GH93, Tan95] is a Larch interface language for Standard C. LCL uses a C-like syntax
23:39:47 * ehird just makes a splint script
23:41:39 <ehird> Why does splint insist glob-var-prefix isn't real?
23:43:34 <ehird> it's global-prefix now
23:44:22 <ehird> ais523: hmm... should unsafe macros be uppercase (KLUDGE), or constants (PI)?
23:44:37 <ehird> I'm thinking the former, due to it being VERY IMPORTANTLY SHOUTY.
23:44:38 <ais523> constants should be uppercase, unsafes should be more scary
23:45:17 <ehird> but it's not necessarily unsafe
23:45:20 <ehird> just very very special
23:45:29 <ehird> so it should stand out, not yell about the impending rapture
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23:47:16 <ehird> ais523: otoh, are constants really that special?
23:47:28 <ehird> constantPi is silly, because the constantness isn't the important part
23:47:34 <ais523> they're in allcaps in the standard header files
23:47:36 <ehird> but otoh they should be visually distinguished
23:47:38 <ais523> and why break C tradition?
23:47:43 <ehird> ais523: yes, and the header files also don't do intFoo
23:47:56 <ais523> when they do have a naming convention, you should follow it
23:48:00 <ehird> (I'll probably have to write a file mangling the C stdlib to the conventions I picked)
23:48:03 <ehird> ais523: No, then I'd use _t
23:48:10 <ehird> But that's inconsistent with the rest of my conventions
23:48:17 <ehird> Also, "not putting the type in the name" is a convention.
23:48:31 <ehird> But that's toooo easy, and also doesn't let the abstract-structure-is-molestable-if-you-have-its-name-in-your-name.
23:52:26 <ehird> ais523: Or should I go crazy and have _a for tag, _e for enum, _s for static...
23:52:37 <ais523> why are you asking me?
23:52:46 <ehird> Because you told me to follow the C library conventions
23:52:51 <ehird> and I was trying to reductio ad absurdum it
23:53:41 <ehird> ais523: I think splint would work a lot better in Ada
23:54:05 <ehird> "The botanists have named the pitcher plant after British natural history broadcaster David Attenborough." // it's a gigantic meat-eating plant
23:54:27 <ehird> "Man, this is one huge plant... and it eats meat..." "Sounds like David Attenborough!"
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