00:00:34 <oklofok> well i don't know, but i think you need a metric space, just a topological space isn't enough
00:02:10 <oklofok> also i need to read about adders now
00:02:46 <ehird> oklofok: the snakes?
00:03:52 <oklofok> no about you know mister ripple-carry and mister carry-look-ahead, and then three others i did *not* learn about in preschool
00:04:46 <ehird> YEAH THAT'S WHY EIGHT PLUS B B
00:05:56 <anm_ub> I think they used some other cute thingy
00:06:25 <HackEgo> * a person who adds numbers \ * small terrestrial viper common in northern Eurasia \ [22]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
00:06:37 <ehird> oklofok: i think he's asking you what an adder snake is.
00:06:52 <oklofok> anm_ub: i was talking about these things that take bits in, and sum them.
00:06:57 <anm_ub> ehird, no I'm saying they weren't used for teaching math in school
00:07:03 <anm_ub> maybe I misunderstood oklofok
00:07:48 <oklofok> mostly about ways to make the carry bottleneck shorter
00:08:00 <oerjan> small terrestrial viper which likes to use log tables for sex
00:08:47 <ehird> anm_ub: Whoooooooosh.
00:09:02 <oklofok> anm_ub: no this is not about algorithms, this is about wires.
00:09:09 * oerjan assumes anm_ub hasn't heard the original joke. which seems safe since he doesn't know about adders.
00:09:11 <anm_ub> oh darn, I thought I was making the math joke here
00:09:39 <anm_ub> oerjan, I haven't heard the original joke no
00:09:52 <ehird> yeah, anm_ub has never heard of these weird joke creatures, "vipers"
00:10:10 <ehird> i can't believe he doesn't :D
00:10:39 <anm_ub> ehird, vipers I know of. It's the popular name for F-16 Fight Falcon. The pilots often call it the viper. Oh and it's a type of snake too.
00:10:49 <ehird> but you don't know what an adder is?
00:11:00 <ehird> i knew what an adder was when i was 3 ffs
00:11:21 <anm_ub> oh it's a huggorm says wikipedia
00:11:27 <anm_ub> of course I know what a huggorm is
00:11:36 <anm_ub> quite a different name in Swedish
00:11:44 <anm_ub> oerjan, translate for me
00:11:56 <ehird> Hug G ORM → Hug Gangsta Object Relational Mapper
00:12:05 <ehird> Those gangsta object-relational mappers just need some love.
00:12:07 <anm_ub> ehird, more like "bite-snake"
00:12:38 <anm_ub> oerjan, don't you call them slang or something
00:12:38 <oerjan> hugg also means "chop" with an axe
00:12:42 <anm_ub> which is Swedish for tube
00:13:04 <oerjan> although it's still huggorm in norwegian
00:13:42 <anm_ub> hugg == bite (fast, kind of head quickly moving forward and biting)
00:13:55 <anm_ub> the variant "hugg" does imply a certain suddenness
00:13:58 <anm_ub> if you see what I mean
00:16:06 <oerjan> huggorm is the only poisonous snake in norway
00:17:45 <oklofok> i don't know what an adder is, except that it's some kinda snake.
00:17:59 <oklofok> i probably don't know what that snake is in finnish either, except that it's some kinda snake
00:18:02 <anm_ub> oklofok, adder == huggorm
00:18:03 <oerjan> ah wp says it's the world's most widespread snake species
00:18:28 <oklofok> huggorm, on the other hand, i've never even heard about
00:18:55 <anm_ub> oklofok, well, it is same as adder
00:19:49 <oerjan> "In Finland as "kyykäärme" or simply "kyy.""
00:19:56 <ehird> oklofok: say "floating floaters that float" in finnish
00:21:27 <oklofok> oh right viper was kyy, i actually have slightly more information about that than any other snake in the world
00:21:37 <oklofok> mainly that it's the only venomous snake in finland
00:21:58 <oklofok> ehird: kelluvat kellujat jotka kelluvat
00:22:30 <ehird> oklofok: does finnish have an analogue of buffalo buffalo etc?
00:22:36 <ehird> and if so, can it be made into one word?
00:22:39 <anm_ub> adder is a subspecies of viper
00:22:58 <oklofok> anm_ub: i can't see the difference between those two words, they just mean snake to me
00:23:05 <oerjan> bøfler bøfler bøfler bøfler bøfler
00:23:10 <anm_ub> oklofok, adder is a type of viper
00:23:21 <anm_ub> and viper is a type of snake
00:23:32 <oklofok> anm_ub: yes, snake is a type snake, which is a type of snake.
00:24:15 <oklofok> i'm currently so uninterested in biology, that i can't learn that even temporarily.
00:24:25 <oerjan> (alas bøfle isn't really a verb, but it could have been)
00:24:45 <ehird> biology is like YOUR MOM
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00:26:42 <ehird> wow! acme can edit infinitely large files
00:26:53 <oklofok> oerjan: that would be more interesting with semantics, you know
00:27:06 <oklofok> i mean semantics for the part that has it
00:27:34 <ehird> squee i can't wait for my laptoppy.
00:27:45 <ehird> why did i ever get a desktop.
00:29:50 <ehird> oklofok: i still have one!
00:30:06 <oerjan> oklofok: bøfler = buffalos
00:30:32 <oerjan> but it also looks like it could be a verb, present tense
00:31:17 <oerjan> and if it had been, it would have worked like in english
00:33:28 <ehird> argh acme is just too damn elegant
00:33:48 <oerjan> elegant eloquent elephant
00:34:00 <ehird> it's not an elephant!
00:34:03 <oklofok> weird how you'd pluralize it with an s even though you're referencing something that depends on it not pluralizing like that
00:34:47 <oerjan> well that was to point out that the norwegian word is only plural
00:36:59 <oklofok> OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
00:37:36 <oerjan> YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAH
00:37:48 <oklofok> ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;D
00:38:33 <oerjan> i knew it! finns are really aliens with multiple eyes on stalks!
00:39:32 <oklofok> each with their own tiny blinking brain, synchronizing is a bitch.
00:40:20 <oerjan> but it makes you natural experts on concurrent programming
00:40:20 <ehird> i wouldn't be surprised to discover that oklofok is an AI
00:42:07 <oklofok> i wish there was a ranking of universities by how hard the courses are.
00:42:36 <ehird> pretty sure ivy league + MIT would constitute a good portion of the top
00:42:59 <ehird> well + like oxford and cambridge and shit
00:45:35 <oerjan> there could be a university where the courses are so hard that no one passes, so the university is still considered shit
00:45:58 <ehird> oklofok: because the ivy league is the canonical "really good school list"
00:46:04 <oerjan> somewhere close to pyongyang, perhaps
00:46:07 <ehird> and MIT is fairly unanimously considered uber hard
00:46:21 <ehird> oxford and cambridge are also very well renowned /shrug
00:46:50 <oklofok> ehird: i just don't see why really good would imply hard. well, actually i guess i just don't think hard implies good.
00:47:01 <oklofok> which is pretty much what oerjan said, i guess.
00:47:20 <ehird> they don't rank it based on how many people pass, obviously
00:50:10 <ehird> [00:45] oerjan: there could be a university where the courses are so hard that no one passes, so the university is still considered shit
00:50:12 <ehird> you referred to that line
00:53:29 <oklofok> 1. such a university would be crappy 2. i'm not saying being hard to pass makes a university bad, i'm just saying i don't see why hard should imply good
00:54:29 <ehird> I was thinking you meant "i don't see why good implies hard"
00:54:35 <ehird> whereas I expect there's a pretty good correlation in that direction
00:55:31 <oklofok> well, more like good -> hard enough, which in a university is pretty damn hard in my opinion
00:55:57 <ehird> oklofok: otoh, I doubt that there are many bad unis with really hard courses
00:56:13 <ehird> because when starting a uni with broken thinking, I'd say the tendency is to make it too easy for the students
00:56:34 <ehird> I don't think there are many if any crazy bastards running around running a terrible university where you have to solve 6 impossible things before breakfast
00:57:48 <oklofok> someone mentioned this math lecturer who gave unsolved problems as homework without a warning
00:58:00 <oklofok> i mean, among the other exercises
00:58:11 <ehird> that's not hard, though
00:58:16 <ehird> impossible != hard
00:58:27 <ehird> you're not expected to complete it
00:58:30 <ehird> therefore it's infinitely easy
00:58:39 <oklofok> well true, that wasn't a counter-example, just a side-note
00:59:34 <oklofok> we actually got a few unsolvable problems as homework too, on an analysis course (with a warning), that was kinda annoying, since at that point i couldn't stand not getting all of them done :\
01:00:06 <oklofok> but i fought the urge to apply my solid inductions on it.
01:00:36 <ehird> oklofok: but you coulda solved them!
01:00:53 <ehird> also unsolvable or just unsolved
01:02:52 <oklofok> one was just a tiny modification of the exercise before it
01:03:33 <oklofok> unsolvable problems aren't that rare, and usually don't have a warning, by which i mean human errors
01:04:51 <pikhq> Obviously, homework should have Knuth ratings.
01:06:09 <ehird> Knuth: 18943758973489583945/3458934759834735782798378589475867325789235
01:08:29 <oklofok> that's one fucked up way to say trivial.
01:10:10 <ehird> oklofok: how is it trivial
01:10:17 <ehird> it's like 7 out of 2
01:12:19 <oklofok> i must be misunderstanding something here
01:18:53 <oklofok> how is a knuth rating of about 5.48e-24 not trivial
01:19:10 <oklofok> it's rather close to 0, the easiest possible, unless i remember the scale wrong
01:20:21 <ehird> i don't even know what knuth ratings are
01:20:34 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-gb&q=knuth+rating&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 nuttin'
01:21:27 <oklofok> oh? then i guess i have no idea what you meant by that rational number
01:24:05 <ehird> like an n/10 rating
01:24:11 <ehird> except knuth is like sooo subtle
01:27:07 <oklofok> but it's such a ridiculously small number what scale could it possibly not be trivial on
01:29:13 <ehird> oklofok: knuth's scale is superexponential.
01:29:30 <oklofok> argggh what's that term you use for when something is really bad in computer science :P
01:29:35 <oklofok> i'm sure you know what i mean!
01:29:42 <ehird> oklofok: "really bad"
01:30:52 <oklofok> hard to say, i just know there's like a canonical term for something being really bad.
01:31:03 <oerjan> superexponential is pretty close ;D
01:31:45 <oerjan> intractable? uncomputable?
01:31:45 <oklofok> it's like fatally bad, superbad
01:32:09 <oklofok> doesn't imply anything computational by itself
01:32:51 <oerjan> supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
01:33:37 <oklofok> yeah np doesn't imply anything cs-related, it's just a normal english term for bad.
01:33:47 <oklofok> but, it's still not what i'm looking for!
01:33:57 <ehird> [01:33] oklofok: yeah np doesn't imply anything cs-related, it's just a normal english term for bad.
01:35:14 <oklofok> anyway it's not just used in cs, maybe more in math, when describing like a very weird subcase
01:35:56 <oklofok> would be much easier if i had any idea what the term was
01:36:16 <ehird> oklofok: almost surely? :P
01:41:58 * oerjan doesn't connect that with "really bad" :/
01:42:40 <ehird> oerjan: this asteroid will almost surely destroy the earth
01:42:52 <ehird> it is perfectly shaped to painfully anally rape us for minutes beforehand
01:44:56 <oklofok> see you in about 3 months.
01:46:59 <ehird> oklofok: is it the OED?
01:47:01 <ehird> you should use the OED
01:47:05 <ehird> oklofok: also try WP, it probably has an article on it
01:47:13 <ehird> and you can filter out everything not in a mathematics or CS category
01:47:53 <oklofok> much less cs or math than those
01:50:50 <ehird> oklofok is just making this up to waste our time :P
01:51:17 <oklofok> i'm starting to think that myself
01:53:12 <oerjan> no, that is not a word.
01:53:19 <oerjan> not in english, at any rate.
01:57:39 <oklofok> the only word i can come up with is "paradoxical", not that close in meaning, so may be close in sound.
01:57:52 <oklofok> hard to say, my brain is pretty fucked up :<
02:00:40 <oerjan> darn it's in the back of my head
02:01:15 <ehird> oklofok: pathological
02:01:59 <ehird> oklofok: some definition of "really bad"
02:02:25 <oklofok> well it's used pretty much synonymously, anyway, i did remember it had to do with death
02:02:29 <oklofok> prolly should've said that
02:03:17 <oklofok> but i kinda assumed it'd be on the page with lethal if it was close enough to be useful
02:03:43 <oerjan> lethargic lemurs leaping leftwards
02:05:02 <oerjan> actually that's sifakas, except the lethargic part
02:05:28 <ehird> oklofok: i think i dismissed pathological as not being... mathy enough
02:06:35 <oerjan> i can assure you that "pathological case" is a perfectly cromulent mathematical term ;D
02:06:55 <ehird> oerjan: i have a question
02:06:57 <ehird> do you pun as much IRL
02:10:01 <ehird> props to anyone who gets the reference
02:10:21 <oklofok> yeah it's not very math, more of a hacker term, methinks.
02:10:37 <oklofok> i just didn't really know what i was looking for
02:11:55 <oklofok> well, not that i've discussed or read that much math in english.
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04:09:00 <Sgeo> [about Minimal] jercos> Sgeo: add to the "joke languages list" and observe the hilarity?
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04:40:01 <pikhq> `calc 1 liter in hogsheads
04:40:03 <HackEgo> 1 liter = 0.00419320718 hogsheads
04:40:23 <pikhq> A hogshead is an *oddly* small unit.
04:40:34 <pikhq> Especially for a unit that claims to be the size of the head of a hog.
04:41:08 <pikhq> `calc 30 miles per gallon in rods per hogshead
04:41:10 <HackEgo> 30 miles per gallon = 604 800 rods per hogshead
04:41:27 <oerjan> `calc 1 hogshead in liters
04:41:29 <HackEgo> 1 hogshead = 238.480942 liters
04:42:08 <pikhq> Oddly large, then.
04:42:45 <HackEgo> 1 hogshead = 63 US gallons
04:44:41 <Warrigal_> If Hamburger Helper is cooking, this is still only "cooking".
04:45:24 <Warrigal_> They have to warm up, and then after that, they have to cool down.
04:45:48 <Warrigal_> The temperature of this water is rising quadratically.
04:47:08 <lament> cars will surely horrify you
04:47:16 <lament> they have to speed up, and then they have to slow down
04:47:27 <oerjan> induction stoves are technically electric... or is it magnetic
04:49:36 <pikhq> Warrigal_: ... You are struggling with that>
05:03:01 <Warrigal_> Preparation requires boiling. Bringing water to a boil is really easy. Boiling something in it is also pretty easy.
05:03:35 <Warrigal_> You just have to make sure it pretty much continues boiling and doesn't boil over or boil too quickly.
05:04:12 <pikhq> ... And you're struggling with that?
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05:29:07 * Sgeo watches http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVVfs4zKrgk
05:45:49 <Warrigal_> I didn't say I was struggling with it.
05:46:03 <Warrigal_> It went as well as it possibly could have gone.
05:47:59 <Warrigal_> It's just that, seeing that this house has an electric stove and pondering how such a think would work, I decided that gas stoves were better.
06:20:06 <Sgeo> Surrender or pie!
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09:53:01 <Octalnet> Can anyone point me in the direction of a simplified documentation on Whirl?
09:59:03 <Deewiant> I would guess that http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Whirl and what it links to is all there is.
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10:10:12 <coppro> So. Ubuntu has finally done something that has made me actually want to change distributions, and I will do so if they do not fix this by next version
10:11:46 <coppro> seriously, I want to go find whoever is behind this and stab them over and over and over
10:12:27 <Deewiant> So obviously, you want somebody to ask you what it is they've done
10:15:07 <coppro> how else can I vent my frustration at the idiot who decided to put the RECOVERY CONSOLE on /USR!
10:15:29 <coppro> the recovery console is for when /USR is not working!
10:15:58 <coppro> moreover, it meant I had to run e2fsck on a mounted filesystem, and that made me NOT happy
10:17:38 <fizzie> Coincidentally, I met the recovery console for the first time yesterday, and on the iBook at least it didn't accept any sensible keyboard input; any keys I pressed were just echoed messily on top of the dialog.
10:18:56 <coppro> I should disclaim that; it's not actually the recovery console proper, it's a special program they have to perform useful repair tasks easily without needing to drop to root. It can be used to launch the recovery console, do package management, fix X, or do a filesystem scan (or continue the bootup on its merry way)
10:19:05 <coppro> also :( at the recovery console not working
10:23:04 <coppro> also it's 3 AM and it was raining and I can't sleep when it rains because it drips all night and it's very very loud
10:23:48 <coppro> time for the moment of truth... see whether my decision to run e2fsck on a mounted system fixed the problem (which I suspect was a bad block)
10:25:02 <fizzie> Yes, that sort of option-select-o-tron is what I saw when booting in single-user mode.
10:25:49 <coppro> are you on Ubuntu? I thought you were referring to the Mac OS SUM, but I guess I was assuping
10:27:55 <fizzie> I have Ubuntu and OS X on the iBook, and that was in Ubuntu. (I had left the laptop do a distribution upgrade to 9.04 overnight, it had competely hung up somewhere during the night, and after a reboot Gnome had brokened itself. Got it fixed with the "dpkg --configure -a", which I guess is what I could have done from the boot-up dialog too, had it worked right.)
10:29:07 <coppro> I'm also pretty confident bad blocks were causing my random crashes during my development, so with any luck those should be gone too
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11:15:17 <louzer> How can I represent 'nil' in combinatory logic?
11:15:44 <louzer> and the last thing in the last cons cell is nil
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11:43:55 <coppro> quick... I don't feel like thinking... anyone know a terminating binary value that is nonterminating in decimal?
11:44:02 <coppro> or is that not possible?
11:48:28 <Deewiant> I can't think of one and I wonder if it's impossible because 2 divides 10
11:49:32 <Deewiant> At least there's a lot of "other than 2 or 5" on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_decimal
11:49:42 <coppro> yes, that's what I'm thinking of
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12:04:17 <fizzie> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/DecimalExpansion.html and the part immediately after the table.
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12:24:51 <lament> 2^(-x) = (10/5)^(-x) = 10^(-x)/5^(-x) = 10^(-x)*5^x = terminating
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13:12:11 <oerjan> louzer: such a list element is essentially _either_ nil or a cons cell, so you need a way to distinguish them
13:13:57 <oerjan> in general you can represent that as nil = \nilcase conscase -> nilcase, cons x y = \nilcase conscase -> conscase x y
13:16:01 <oerjan> this method extends to general "algebraic" data types
13:16:39 <oerjan> (haskell lambda notation there)
13:18:17 <louzer> i read on unlambda page that i can use a union as the last element of a list
13:18:39 <oerjan> there might be a trick...
13:19:59 <oerjan> hm no i read that as using a union for all conses of a list
13:20:26 <oerjan> also that's essentially what i suggested
13:22:09 <oerjan> except i rolled the last union case and the pair case together
13:22:28 <oerjan> the v option doesn't work for pure combinatory logic i think
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14:54:29 <AnMaster> ehird: for log reading purposes, I just noticed some new things about wireless. As I said it was even harder to connect after suspend, however for me it seems that unloading the iwlagn module, waiting ~10 seconds then modprobing it brings it back to the less slow "mode" that you get on cold boot
14:54:46 <AnMaster> you need to use the last backported wlan drivers
14:55:05 <AnMaster> otherwise you seem to get kernel OOPS at shutdown
14:55:45 <AnMaster> and, the wlan activity led (just below the monitor on R500) is annoying when it blinks all the time
14:57:53 <AnMaster> ais523, you had kernel oops on shutdown too with your intel wireless or?
14:58:05 <ais523> I'm pretty certain they're different bugs, now
14:58:10 <AnMaster> hm, seems it only affect some models
14:58:26 <AnMaster> 03:00.0 Network controller: Intel Corporation PRO/Wireless 5100 AGN [Shiloh] Network Connection
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15:09:36 <AnMaster> ais523, you seen that right? I forgot if you were in here yesterday or not
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15:39:27 <GregorR-L> Bahahaha, I got invited to a group "I bet I can find 1000000 people who use binary" on Facebook, and what's really sad is that it's nowhere near the claimed b1000000 (64) people.
15:40:25 <oklopol> i've never heard of anyone who uses binary
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17:45:09 <ehird> 02:10:12 <coppro> So. Ubuntu has finally done something that has made me actually want to change distributions, and I will do so if they do not fix this by next version
17:45:13 <ehird> <Mark Shuttleworth> OH GOD!
17:45:22 <ehird> <Mark Shuttleworth> Quick, developers! Here's a million bux!
17:45:22 <ais523> what was coppro's complaint, btw?
17:45:27 <ehird> <Mark Shuttleworth> GET THIS FIXED BY TOMORROW
17:45:33 <ehird> ais523: they moved the recovery console to /usr
17:45:43 <ehird> this is apparently an issue because he breaks /usr aaaaaaaaall the time or something
17:45:54 <ais523> coppro: use /usr/local instead, that's what it's for
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17:46:03 <ais523> or just put your own copy in /bin, it's not as if Ubuntu will care
17:46:04 -!- GregorR-L_ has changed nick to GregorR-L.
17:46:08 <ehird> it's basically impossible to boot into a livecd if /usr dies, right?
17:46:13 <ehird> physically pick it up
17:46:38 <ehird> 02:18:56 <coppro> I should disclaim that; it's not actually the recovery console proper, it's a special program they have to perform useful repair tasks easily without needing to drop to root. It can be used to launch the recovery console, do package management, fix X, or do a filesystem scan (or continue the bootup on its merry way)
17:46:45 <GregorR-L> Whoops, meant to do that in my console!
17:48:58 <ehird> 06:54:29 <AnMaster> ehird: for log reading purposes, I just noticed some new things about wireless. As I said it was even harder to connect after suspend, however for me it seems that unloading the iwlagn module, waiting ~10 seconds then modprobing it brings it back to the less slow "mode" that you get on cold boot
17:49:06 <ehird> 06:55:45 <AnMaster> and, the wlan activity led (just below the monitor on R500) is annoying when it blinks all the time
17:49:07 <ehird> 06:55:53 <AnMaster> I wonder if I can turn it off
17:49:29 <ehird> 07:07:12 * AnMaster worries about http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/fulldisclosure/2009-08/0174.html
17:49:29 <ehird> nobody cares about your machine
17:51:16 <ehird> "For today's computer science students, learning C is like taking an elective class in Latin."
17:52:36 <oklopol> well okay i'm not sure even i can agree with "elective"
17:52:48 <pikhq> ehird: Agreed, but only because Latin is still very useful.
17:53:59 <GregorR-L> A computer scientist NOT taking a class in C is like a linguistics student not taking a class in Latin.
17:54:43 <oklopol> GregorR-L: yes, except C is not only something any self-respecting cs dude knows, it's also actually used a lot; latin is only the first one
17:55:09 <ehird> well C isn't actually very related to theoretical CS
17:55:36 <ehird> so a CS course could be perfectly good without C, it'd just be real-world useless
17:55:38 <oklopol> true... i guess that's simply a completely irrelevant comparison :P
17:56:16 <oklopol> latin being theoretically useful, but not practically, C being the other way around
17:56:40 <oklopol> GregorR-L: mine and irrelevant or ehird's and real-world useless?
17:56:50 <ehird> oklopol: the implication was "the kidzzz today, they use rUbY oN rAiLzzzz"
17:57:30 <oklopol> well right, ehird would be real-world useless if he was blind
17:57:41 <oklopol> i'm sure i haven't used the see-joke enough yet
17:57:43 <ehird> so my only use is seeing things?
17:58:16 <oklopol> no, but going blind, you would be rendered completely useless
17:58:19 <fizzie> I think you can get at least the Bachelor's degree thing for CS at our university without any C, since the two basic-imperative-programming courses are Java nowadays.
17:58:20 <oklopol> if only for a finite amount of time
17:58:45 <fizzie> Though it's not all lost: you won't get the degree without learning about finite state machines and Turing machines.
17:58:46 <ehird> finnish universities sound boring
17:58:51 <ehird> like they sound very much like every other uni
17:58:52 <pikhq> My university starts you on C++.
17:59:01 <ehird> pikhq: make that sentence false
17:59:04 <pikhq> And assumes you're learning other languages.
17:59:08 <ehird> best way to do that is to make it not your university
17:59:53 <fizzie> We used to have a set of three "basic programming" courses (T1, T2, T3) that had the languages Scheme, C, C++/Java in that order.
18:00:15 <ehird> fizzie: great to okay to bad!
18:00:27 <pikhq> ehird: The US has 3 choices: C++, Java, and a few schools doing Python.
18:00:29 <ehird> GregorR-L: ...to make you hate programming?
18:00:51 <GregorR-L> ehird: To make you reaaaaally understand what the f*** is going on.
18:00:51 <ehird> pikhq: Indeed. Scheme was a choice until, iirc last year; MIT switched to Python.
18:00:52 <pikhq> Of the choices, Python is the sanest. However, it is harder to get to the schools that do Python.
18:00:59 <fizzie> Actually the best C course here (or so I hear) is the "automation and systems technology" department one. You know, those guys who are building our future robotic overlords.
18:00:59 <ehird> GregorR-L: C++... doesn't do that.
18:01:07 <oklopol> we had java first, then someone got python on the introductory course, then someone got java back
18:01:22 <ehird> sad that they killed 6.001
18:01:27 <oklopol> there's a few dudes who want eiffel, although minority
18:01:32 <ehird> sussman shoulda done it till he kicked the bucket
18:01:35 <ehird> oklopol: eiffel is fun and obscure
18:01:52 <fizzie> Our university does Python for the introductory programming course for non-CS students.
18:02:03 <oklopol> from what i hear, it's much cooler than java or c++, but i've only heard features, not so much seen what it's actually like
18:02:52 <ehird> oklopol: it's a type-safe OO language with things basically like closures, a wacky inheritance mechanism to make it safer, and machine-enforced contracts on the input/outputs of functions
18:03:05 <fizzie> And the automation people have this awesome ball-shaped robot; actually it looks a bit like the xkcd thing, except it's not based on an Eee PC: http://automation.tkk.fi/Rollo
18:03:33 <ehird> fizzie: sweet; I want to make the xkcd robot sometime
18:03:34 <Deewiant> D's contracts are basically ripped from Eiffel
18:03:58 <ehird> fizzie: how does rollo handle the whole "camera is all blurry 'cuz it be done spinnin' bout" thing
18:04:16 <fizzie> I don't know, I'm not a robot-builder.
18:04:26 <ehird> in the xkcd one it stays on the top
18:04:30 <ehird> outside of the ball
18:04:32 <fizzie> I see it's been patented, heh.
18:08:04 -!- ehird has set topic: Hoist by eir own petard | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:18:14 <AnMaster> <ehird> HD activity too <-- pattern less annoying for that
18:18:33 <ehird> I'll disable it anyway since I hate blinking things that I didn't cause
18:21:24 <ehird> with a fiery passion.
18:22:42 * ehird finds the exact date where tuomov changed ion3's license
18:22:50 <ehird> now to find the closest version before that
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18:22:53 <AnMaster> <ehird> oklopol: the implication was "the kidzzz today, they use rUbY oN rAiLzzzz" <-- tell me, what language is the ruby implementation coded in?
18:23:03 <ehird> AnMaster: English is implemented in Latin!
18:23:29 <ehird> [[As a further note, I consider the restrictions on the name use
18:23:30 <ehird> retroactive: this is also an issue of trademark law, and as the
18:23:30 <ehird> author, I am the (unregistered) trademark holder for Ion, Ion3,
18:23:30 <ehird> etc. The new license and copyright law merely act as additional
18:23:30 <ehird> enforcement devices.]]
18:23:33 <Octalnet> Eh. I know this isn't the place to ask this, but the good channels are dead.
18:23:44 <ehird> Good thing I'm not going to call it ion-anything.
18:23:47 <ehird> Oh, right, hi, Octalnet
18:23:50 <ehird> We're being offtopic.
18:23:55 <ehird> Glad you could join us.
18:24:03 <AnMaster> ehird, well. there are some differences, but I assume you are aware of them and just try to be funny
18:24:05 <pikhq> Octalnet: Verily, I inquire.
18:24:30 <Octalnet> Is there a way to go about custom syntax highlighting in SciTE?
18:24:51 <ehird> esolangs.el highlights bf.
18:24:59 <ehird> but no, not for anything that isn't emacs.
18:25:12 <ais523> wouldn't be hard to add it to anything else
18:25:17 <pikhq> Solution: use an OS, not a text editor.
18:25:17 <ehird> but really, pointless.
18:25:27 <ehird> pikhq: Yeah; UNIX. :P
18:25:44 <oklopol> ehird: why'd it pointless?
18:25:46 <pikhq> ehird: Emacs is also an OS.
18:25:52 <ehird> oklopol: cuz it'd just be technicolour?
18:26:00 <ehird> i mean, there's no real syntax elements to speak of
18:26:15 <ehird> pikhq: Unix is better :P. Incidentally, the basic vi model could handle syntax changes very elegantly if you separated the buffer from the file.
18:26:39 <ehird> Specifically, have a program (text → text with control codes), and another program to handle moving/editing in it.
18:26:46 <ehird> Latter could be a bit of a pain, but eh.
18:26:59 <ehird> actually, even better
18:27:08 <ehird> (text → separate control codes referencing positions of text)
18:27:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, you know, it isn't a funny joke any more the 100th time you hear it
18:27:17 <ehird> (that's the Word-killing patent, heh)
18:27:22 <ehird> AnMaster: Dude, emacs IS an OS.
18:27:38 <AnMaster> ehird, would you compare it to a lisp machine's OS=
18:27:42 <ehird> It lacks a kernel, and a decent scheduler, and any interface other than stupid text buffers, and...
18:27:46 <ehird> AnMaster: no, it's a really _bad_ OS
18:28:10 <AnMaster> ehird, well, it is as much of an OS as squeak is I guess...
18:28:45 <pikhq> ehird: It's a very domain-specific OS, yes.
18:28:51 <AnMaster> ehird, so, it is a kernel less OS. Thus you should clearly like it! ;P
18:29:19 <ehird> How does Emacs do scheduling?
18:30:02 <ehird> Uhh, I'm fairly sure Emacs can update two buffers at once.
18:30:21 <pikhq> It doesn't; the whole thing's pretty event driven, IIRC.
18:30:56 <pikhq> Not very clean, but quite portable.
18:30:58 <ehird> I wonder why there aren't many WMs that can act as a window without xnest
18:31:12 <ehird> you could make a nice unix IDE with a tiling wm, a bunch of xterms and vi
18:31:28 <pikhq> That would actually be a nice IDE.
18:31:36 <ehird> well, I say "not many"; I mean I don't know of even one
18:32:30 <ehird> is xnest any good?
18:32:36 <ehird> I dunno its performance characteristics
18:33:30 <ehird> hmm, xnest seems to fail here
18:34:23 <fizzie> There's also the more modern Xephyr thing, which should be faster.
18:34:44 <ehird> don't really need speed for vi and xterm :P
18:35:21 <AnMaster> ehird, what about using a virtual desktop?
18:35:40 <ehird> what if you want to look at your irc client too
18:36:20 <AnMaster> or do you mean something that can be installed and ready to use as one of those <buzzword>virtual appliances</buzzword>?
18:36:46 <AnMaster> as in, not running in a VM, but similar ready to use X setup
18:37:02 <AnMaster> preconfigured Xnest thingy could work well for that I suspect
18:37:19 <ehird> no, I just mean a tiling wm running a bunch of urxvts.
18:37:32 <ehird> like a four-liner.
18:37:49 <AnMaster> ehird, can't think of any sane way to do it without Xnest. This proves the X protocol sucks
18:38:04 <ehird> that's exactly what xnest does.
18:38:15 <ehird> creates an x display as a window
18:38:20 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, but why would you want it without Xnest??
18:38:43 <ehird> i just didn't know if xnest was slow or sth
18:38:54 <AnMaster> <ehird> I wonder why there aren't many WMs that can act as a window without xnest
18:39:15 <AnMaster> seems like you wanted a tiling vm not using xnet?
18:39:23 <ehird> i just didn't know if xnest was slow or sth
18:39:23 <ehird> i just didn't know if xnest was slow or sth
18:39:24 <ehird> i just didn't know if xnest was slow or sth
18:39:24 <ehird> i just didn't know if xnest was slow or sth
18:39:30 <pikhq> AnMaster: Tiling WM in a window.
18:39:35 <ehird> [ehird:~] % xinit twm -display :3 -- xnest :3
18:39:36 <ehird> xterm Xt error: Can't open display: :3
18:39:36 <ehird> waiting for X server to shut down
18:40:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, yep, but issue is you need a whole X server in a window (like xnest), since otherwise the X server would tell the main window manager about the new apps/windows
18:41:15 <ehird> it's just hacked up Xorg
18:41:15 <ehird> so whatever i'm doing is my stupidity
18:41:27 <AnMaster> ehird, that might *possibly* create issues. What with X on mac being kind of nested + seemless mode under the real GUI system
18:41:34 <ehird> no, that's just the qwartz-wm
18:42:00 <ehird> each window is a twm window
18:42:02 <ehird> floating on the os x desktop
18:42:13 <ehird> quartz-wm doesn't even draw aqua
18:42:15 <AnMaster> ehird, it won't affect non-X windows then?
18:42:16 <ehird> it looks like Tiger still
18:42:26 <ehird> AnMaster: no; Aqua isn't X11
18:42:43 <ehird> quartz-wm integrated sort of okay in Tiger but alongside leopard windows it's kinda silly
18:42:45 <ehird> even the shadow is wrong
18:42:50 <AnMaster> ehird, can you run anything with a root window with the X on there
18:42:57 <ehird> it is full x11 and you can run it fullscreen
18:43:02 <AnMaster> if not, what would the window of Xnest contain?
18:43:10 <ehird> the root window = twm
18:43:24 <ehird> but yes, it can do root windows.
18:43:26 <ehird> = fullscreen mode.
18:43:37 <ehird> I made it so that it booted directly into X11/twm recently
18:43:38 <AnMaster> I was trying to debug the issue
18:43:48 <AnMaster> so that is why I asked about root window sans xnest
18:43:51 <ehird> so a lot smoother and nicer than other x backgrounds
18:44:22 <AnMaster> plus I bet someone would claim it looked nicer too ;P
18:44:33 <ehird> Yes. The pixels have more energy.
18:45:51 <AnMaster> I remember back on 2.4 kernels, slackware iirc, first time I got KDE working in it I did it from inside twm
18:46:12 <ehird> march 6 2007 is when tuomov posted his bitch about debian wrt license
18:46:15 <AnMaster> as in, while in there, kill twm, start kwin, start kdesktop, start kicker
18:46:19 <ehird> so i guess the last sane release is before that
18:46:27 <ehird> maybe i'll call it fytv
18:46:35 <ehird> Friendlytowards You Tuomo Valkonen
18:46:51 <ehird> pronounced like "fith" but with a v instead of an h. :P
18:48:44 <ehird> my fork of the last ion3 before he changed the license to the laughable abomination
18:48:47 <ehird> I don't even use ion3
18:48:50 <ehird> I just want to piss him off
18:48:56 <ehird> because he's a dick, you see.
18:49:40 <pikhq> Not to mention a retard.
18:49:44 <ehird> yes, well, it used to be just a GPL-variant
18:49:52 <ehird> and i'm finding the last one licensed like that I can
18:50:00 <ehird> and I'm going to try and update it based on changelogs to be bug-free
18:50:02 <pikhq> "I can revoke the GPL!" "... No."
18:50:08 <AnMaster> I thought you didn't want to touch the GPL...?
18:50:22 <AnMaster> at least you claimed that about my GPL code before :P
18:50:24 <ehird> pikhq: actually, his argument is that since he owns the Ion name he can change the rights to it how he likes
18:50:25 <ais523> ehird dislikes GPL3, although IIRC not to the extent of refusing to use anything based on it
18:50:35 <ehird> pikhq: he doesn't claim the license itself is retroactive
18:50:36 <ais523> he isn't so upset at GPL2, although it still isn't his ideal license
18:50:39 <ehird> on that point he is probably right
18:50:44 <ehird> AnMaster: it's LGPL, iirc
18:51:27 <pikhq> ehird: He also claimed to revoke the GPL proper, IIRC.
18:51:29 * ehird installs darcs to try and find the relevant change
18:51:43 <ehird> pikhq: it was people thinking his trademark terms were part of the LGPL license
18:51:50 <ehird> which is understandable, since the file they're in is called LICENSE
18:52:58 <ehird> pikhq: anyway, tuomov is totally irrelevant now as ion3 is waning in popularity and he uses Windows XP/cygwin now
18:53:50 <ehird> ais523: once very popular tiling window manager
18:53:55 <ehird> from the guy who invented tabbing window managers
18:54:01 <ehird> ais523: he changed the license to, well
18:54:05 <ehird> you have to see this to believe it
18:54:13 <ais523> the anti-Debian clause
18:54:18 <ehird> way more than that
18:54:26 <ais523> well, that means they have to keep it up to date, or not use it
18:54:53 <ehird> - A version that does not significantly differ from one of the
18:54:53 <ehird> copyright holder's releases, must be provided by default.
18:54:54 <ehird> - Versions not based on the copyright holder's latest release (on
18:54:54 <ehird> the corresponding "branch", such as Ion3(tm)), must within 28 days
18:54:54 <ehird> of this release, be prominently marked as (potentially) obsolete
18:54:56 <ehird> - Significantly altered versions may be provided only if the user
18:54:58 <ehird> explicitly requests for those modifications to be applied, and
18:55:00 <ehird> is prominently notified that the software is no longer considered
18:55:02 <ehird> the standard version, and is not supported by the copyright holder.
18:55:04 <ehird> The version string displayed by the program must describe these
18:55:06 <ehird> modifications and the "support void" status.
18:55:08 <ehird> Versions for which the above conditions are not satisfied, must be
18:55:10 <ehird> renamed so that they can not be associated with the Ion project, their
18:55:12 <ehird> executables must be given names that do not conflict with the copyright
18:55:14 <ehird> holder's version, and neither the copyright holder nor the Ion project
18:55:16 <ehird> may be referred to for support.
18:55:19 <ehird> one suggestion he made to debian was "do like you do with the kernel and name packages ion-version"
18:55:23 <ehird> (the response being "haha no fuck off")
18:56:27 <ehird> ugh, all the ion3 docs are in tex
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18:57:30 <ehird> ais523: anyway, he now uses Windows XP and cygwin, and occasionally posts retarded but hilarious anti-FOSS spasms on his "not a" blog
18:58:41 <AnMaster> ehird, why does debian do that for the kernel btw
18:58:49 <ehird> AnMaster: multiple kernels at once
18:59:11 <AnMaster> oh right apt/dpkg can't handle multiple versions of a package installed side by side otherwise
18:59:29 <AnMaster> (hint: portage can, called slotted packages)
19:00:07 <AnMaster> (but treated as the same package, different version for most purposes)
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19:13:38 <ehird> Ooh, the suckless guys made a terminal.
19:13:42 <ehird> http://st.suckless.org/
19:16:20 <ais523> that page has a recursive see also link
19:16:28 <ehird> ais523: it's the manpage
19:16:55 <ehird> Huh, they're also making a web browser.
19:17:27 <ehird> — said webkit/gtk browser is 557 lines long
19:17:35 <ehird> seems to even do downloads
19:18:02 <pikhq> What are they doing, trying to make non-sucky UNIX?
19:18:12 <ehird> pikhq: the suckless guys are all plan 9 weenies
19:18:45 <pikhq> A commendable, though not-very-revolutionary goal.
19:19:01 <ehird> Their stuff is nice, though
19:19:31 <ehird> also a filesystem-based irc client
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19:22:43 <AnMaster> <ehird> — said webkit/gtk browser is 557 lines long <-- excluding webkit itself I assume
19:22:54 <ehird> also excluding the linux kernel, glibc,....
19:22:55 <AnMaster> how much do webkit do of the job?
19:22:59 -!- kokkafasas has left (?).
19:23:05 <ehird> it renders the actual pages and keeps the cookies
19:23:12 <ehird> so about as much as gecko.
19:23:16 <ehird> webkit is very embeddable.
19:23:28 <AnMaster> I don't know the details of gecko either
19:23:50 <AnMaster> ehird, what I'm wondering is "is it just providing buttons, just rendering, or something in between"
19:23:57 <AnMaster> I guess the latter alternative
19:24:48 <pikhq> Gecko is horrifying.
19:28:36 <pikhq> Huh. All the programs I use are suggested by them as "cool programs".
19:28:50 <ehird> What, including xulrunner?
19:29:13 <pikhq> Conkeror, specifically.
19:29:29 <ehird> their web servers list is a bit bare; I should write that webserver sometime
19:30:52 <ehird> wow, xmms2 is still going
19:33:10 <ehird> pikhq: the suckless guys really like the plan 9 shell rc, btw; it's worth checking out for fun unixy scripting:
19:33:28 <ehird> http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/rc.html
19:33:28 <ehird> http://plan9.bell-labs.com/magic/man2html/1/rc
19:33:51 <ehird> it actually unifies all the shell concepts
19:33:54 <ehird> with a nice syntax
19:36:09 <ehird> e.g. a proper string concatenation operator
19:38:25 <AnMaster> http://suckless.org/common/broken_programs <-- point two is a pain in VMs btw
19:38:37 <AnMaster> oh and on my laptop when DPI size is set correctly
19:38:50 <AnMaster> plenty of programs try to render taller than the screen
19:38:51 <ehird> AnMaster: on windows, basically no program works with correct dpi
19:38:55 <ehird> they all use pixels
19:39:11 <ehird> just saying you should be glad
19:39:36 <AnMaster> ehird, couldn't use a nice looking QT frontend for qemu. because it rendered taller than my screen
19:40:01 <pikhq> ehird: I think I love Plan 9 shell.
19:40:16 <ehird> and plan9port has it for modern unices
19:40:21 <ehird> no line editing, though; use rlwrap or sth
19:40:34 <AnMaster> "In any case, the ICCCM requests that clients accept any size the window manager proposes to them." <-- there are issues with that, what if you can't fit in? Scrollbars?
19:40:36 <pikhq> It's, like, Bourne minus the suck.
19:40:46 <ehird> AnMaster: that's the WM's problem
19:41:04 <ehird> pikhq: in fact, the website generator (static files + some dynamic bits) powering suckless.org is written in rc
19:41:09 <ehird> and doesn't look awkward at all
19:41:19 <ehird> before that they had a server-side wiki written in rc and it was like 100 lines
19:41:46 <ehird> yeah, I think I'm gonna s/zsh/rc/ on my system now
19:41:57 <ehird> which i suppose officially makes me a plan 9 weenie
19:42:03 <AnMaster> "The program is based on strange non-standard window manager hints that only work properly with a window manager supporting these extensions – this simply breaks the ICCCM as well. E.g. trash icon programs." <-- so they wish to forbid all apps meant to work in taskbars and such
19:42:27 <pikhq> AnMaster: There's a standardised way of doing that, FWIW.
19:42:31 <ehird> trash icons require hints from the wm that icccm doesn't require
19:43:15 <AnMaster> ehird, trash icon, do you mean like the one found in the lower panel on default gnome desktop?
19:43:50 <AnMaster> ehird, how is it different from, say, the gnome mixer thingy, or the kde mixer thingy, or any other app?
19:43:57 <ehird> you can drag things on to it
19:43:58 <AnMaster> that puts it's icon in the taskbar
19:44:03 <ehird> for vaguely specified values of thing
19:44:11 <AnMaster> ehird, hm. maybe you can't for normal such
19:44:13 <ehird> and it uses non-ICCM magick
19:44:36 <ehird> hmm, rlwrap appears to have some rendering problems with the tab char
19:44:43 <AnMaster> ehird, it is meant for gnome I guess, could be considered part of gnome, rather than freestanding app only working with gnome
19:45:00 <ehird> it's specifically saying that gnome's trash icon breaks the icccm
19:45:01 <AnMaster> it sounds a bit like "the setting apps for window maker only works with window maker"
19:45:09 <pikhq> ehird: They made the conditionals sane! ZOMG!
19:45:11 <ehird> it breaks the iccm
19:45:22 <ehird> pikhq: and the loops
19:45:34 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the ICCM way of doing that then I wonder
19:45:38 <ehird> pikhq: btw, 'rlwrap -c rc' almost works; the automatic tabbing it does messes up after an enter
19:45:54 <ehird> but it completes filenames perfectly
19:46:03 <ehird> and logs to .rc_history
19:46:57 <AnMaster> why wouldn't xchat work in a tiling vm
19:47:22 <ehird> -l If -l is given or the first character of argument zero is -,
19:47:22 <ehird> rc reads commands from $home/lib/profile, if it exists,
19:47:22 <ehird> before reading its normal input.
19:47:22 <ehird> ↑ heh, a vestige of plan 9
19:47:53 <ehird> prolly worth writing a shell script that lets your normal .profile run, then "exec rlwrap -c rc"
19:47:57 <ehird> and using that as your shell
19:48:54 <AnMaster> ehird, "as your shell" == "login shell"?
19:49:12 <AnMaster> I wonder if using a shebang script as the shell works
19:49:15 <ehird> that way you can keep a single profile, and avoid the $HOME/lib/profile stuff
19:49:22 <ehird> AnMaster: we're about to find out
19:49:47 <AnMaster> ehird, make sure you aren't using ubuntu OR have an extra account able to sudo :P
19:49:54 <ehird> or just keep a shell open.
19:49:57 <AnMaster> oh and don't forget to update the list of valid shells
19:50:08 <ehird> /Users/ehird/bin:/usr/local/bin:/opt/local/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.6/bin:/opt/local/bin:/opt/local/sbin:/Users/ehird/.cabal/bin:/Applications/J/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/sbin:/usr/local/plan9/bin
19:50:31 <AnMaster> ehird, updated /etc/shells? otherwise it will probably work until you try a clean login
19:50:41 <ehird> chsh doesn't let you use a non /etc/shells shells.
19:51:20 <ehird> hmm, 'rlwrap <shell>' has some side-effects
19:51:26 <ehird> like messing up if a child program uses readline
19:51:31 <ehird> will have to fix. sometime.
19:53:07 <ehird> still, i have an rc shell with completion and line editing basically working when i opwn a new terminal
19:54:06 <ehird> acme works surprisingly well on os x
19:54:11 <ehird> even has a proper dock icon
19:54:18 <ehird> albeit all graphical plan 9 apps just have the bunny :)
19:54:35 <fizzie> I wonder about XChat on that list too; I'm using awesome (which is not just tiling but also non-re-parenting) and haven't seen any problems re xchat.
19:55:06 <ehird> "The program assumes a specific window management model"
19:55:11 <ehird> "The application uses a fixed size – this limitation does not fit into the world of tiling window managers very well"
19:55:17 <ehird> "The program is based on strange non-standard window manager hints"
19:55:21 <ehird> "The program does not conform to ICCCM due to some missing or improperly set hints."
19:55:40 <fizzie> Yes, I guess that last one is the likeliest.
19:56:09 <ehird> pikhq: if you want to go down the rabbit hole a bit more, make sure you have plan9port and try sam(1)
19:56:15 <ehird> it's graphical ed and it's actually nice.
19:58:23 <AnMaster> ehird, xchat won't let me resize the window (running under KDE 3.5) to less than menu bar + topic bar + one line of the text window + the input field
19:58:33 <ehird> pikhq: and hey, ken thompson, brian kernighan and bjarne stroustrup can't be wrong, right?
19:58:43 <AnMaster> limit for width seems to be when entries in menu bar would go outside the window
19:59:15 <AnMaster> as for the last one, yes quite likely
20:00:25 <fizzie> Yes, it seems to have some sort of minimum size, doesn't go any smaller.
20:01:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, I don't think GTK would gracefully handle "less width than the menus take up" in a sane way
20:01:46 <AnMaster> anyway, I'm not sure it is sensible to try to handle it
20:02:19 <AnMaster> might be best to error out or something with a dialog saying that the user should use xchat mini for phones (or something like that ;)
20:02:20 <fizzie> Not sanely, no, but at least the Iceweasel window doesn't seem to have any minimum size.
20:03:55 <fizzie> Quite a lot of GTK programs seem to have size restrictions. And if I try to make gconf-editor go smaller than what it wants, it prints (gconf-editor:6735): Gtk-WARNING **: gtk_widget_size_allocate(): attempt to allocate widget with width -5 and height 13
20:06:39 <AnMaster> I can understand it's (its?) distress
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20:08:19 <ehird_> a lot of messages dropped
20:08:35 <ehird_> [19:58] ehird: well, okay, the latter can be.
20:08:35 <ehird_> [19:58] ehird: dennis ritchie used to use it but now uses acme
20:08:35 <ehird_> [19:58] ehird: AnMaster: probably not that.
20:08:35 <ehird_> [20:02] ehird: pikhq: oh, something that might turn you away from rc: it has & but no ^Z job control; you're meant to use a windowing system instead
20:08:36 <ehird_> [20:03] ehird: (in fact, they were making that case in 1994 :P)
20:08:36 <ehird_> [20:04] ehird: oh, and you have to use $home, not ~
20:09:11 <ehird_> pikhq: awesome rc thing -
20:09:35 <ehird_> % echo 'Hello, '^(world chicken pikhq)^'!'
20:09:35 <ehird_> Hello, world! Hello, chicken! Hello, pikhq!
20:09:41 <ehird_> it's like an array language!
20:10:54 <ehird_> oh, a problem with rlwrapping rc
20:11:01 <ehird_> it's dumb and doesn't understand the changed directory
20:11:04 <MizardX> how about % echo ('Hello, ' 'Good bye, ')^(world chicken pikhq) ?
20:11:06 <ehird_> maybe i should just hack rc to add readline
20:11:18 <ehird_> MizardX: rc: mismatched list lengths in concatenation
20:11:40 <ehird_> would be cool if that worked, though :P
20:12:08 <ehird_> ^x and x^ on both of those parts respectively is,
20:12:15 <ehird_> ('Hello, x' 'Good bye, x')
20:12:24 <ehird_> (xworld xchicken xpikhq)
20:12:29 <ehird_> so it probably should be
20:12:45 <ehird_> ('Hello, world' 'Good bye, world' 'Hello, chicken' 'Good bye, chicken' 'Hello, pikhq' 'Good bye, pikhq')
20:12:50 <ehird_> giving precedent to the first list
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20:16:31 * ehird_ opens rc source in acme, types grep -r 'main(' ., then drags the middle mouse button over it and gets the results in a separate pane
20:16:38 <ehird_> has anyone used those mice that have a scroll wheel, but a separate middle button?
20:16:42 <ehird_> the scroll wheel is on the middle button
20:17:29 <ehird_> it would be a godsend for plan 9
20:19:55 <ais523> ooh, ICANN has finally cracked down on domain squatters who don't buy the domain they're squatting
20:20:06 <ehird_> how about cracking down on all of them
20:20:27 <ais523> if more than 10% of a registrar's domains are cancelled, they're charged $6.75 per domain cancelled
20:20:49 <ehird_> the internet is an interesting dictatorship
20:21:31 <ehird_> ooh, double clicking was invented as a hack because the Apple Lisa's mouse only had one button
20:21:35 <ais523> http://arstechnica.com/web/news/2009/08/escalating-penalties-bring-domain-tasting-to-a-crashing-halt.ars
20:22:19 <AnMaster> <ehird_> [19:58] ehird: AnMaster: probably not that.<-- that == ?
20:22:41 <ehird_> .......................................
20:22:51 <ehird_> You guessed it was that
20:22:53 <GregorR-L> Never heard the expression "domain tasters" before.
20:23:07 <AnMaster> which it refuses to resize below
20:23:09 <ehird_> The suckless people aren't saying "let us open windows that are smaller than a menu"
20:23:13 <ehird_> "DON'T USE A FIXED SIZE"
20:23:19 <ehird_> as in IGNORES the WM, always
20:25:39 <ehird_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointer_trails ;; who the hell thinks these are a good idea
20:27:49 <FireFly> Especially the Windows implementation... looks like separate cursors
20:28:17 <AnMaster> ehird_, whoever implemented the feature, or the manager that decided it should be implemented
20:29:30 <AnMaster> "Mouse pointer trails have been provided as a feature mainly for users with poor vision and for screens that are difficult to see, such as LCD screens in bright sunlight." <-- no idea about that. But if the user both has poor vision and is using a computer for the first time in his life?
20:34:26 <oklopol> i used to love pointer trails
20:36:14 <oklopol> okay this is so much prettier
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20:43:56 <CESSMASTER> by "vision problems" they mean "poor visual tastse"
20:44:19 <oklopol> of course it is. of course, i'd like it even more if it was like a flock of birds
20:44:42 <oklopol> being interesting > being useful
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20:45:05 <oklopol> of course, the trails aren't that interesting
20:46:29 <AnMaster> IDEA: Be able to type on single mouse and keyboard and have the stuff happen on the right computer (laptop or desktop) automagically.
20:46:48 <AnMaster> I think it could actually work
20:47:12 <AnMaster> one computer would somehow redirect keyboard/mouse events to the other computer if I was looking at it's screen
20:47:18 <oklopol> why not use an eye tracker for the mouse?
20:47:21 <pikhq> IDEA: Screw window management. Try OS management.
20:47:23 <oklopol> i've always wondered about that
20:47:25 <ehird_> AnMaster: consider the usecase of typing on irc while glancing over at the porn on your other computer.
20:47:30 <AnMaster> oklopol, hm. how do you click?
20:47:34 <ehird_> it's very important to take porn into account when designing a UI
20:47:41 <ehird_> oklopol: prolly been done
20:47:44 <oklopol> well blinking, if that works
20:47:46 <pikhq> Where you don't have each window with an application in it, but just a bunch of OSes.
20:47:47 <ehird_> dasher has been implemented with eyes
20:47:50 <ehird_> it requires no clicking
20:48:02 <ehird_> AnMaster: any response to the all important porn complaint? in fact i should name that
20:48:12 <ehird_> Elliott's Law: if a UI doesn't make it easy to interact with porn, it will fail.
20:48:18 <pikhq> This begins to approach ehirdOS as you take it to the obvious conclusions.
20:48:31 <ehird_> everything begins to approach ehirdOS that way
20:48:32 <AnMaster> ehird_, for the porn thingy: why not just use the same computer
20:48:34 <ehird_> apart from really bad things
20:48:35 <MizardX> http://synergy2.sourceforge.net/ <-- move mouse pointer between different computers
20:48:45 <AnMaster> both fit on my 21" monitor of desktop
20:48:48 <ehird_> that + sloppy focus could work
20:48:56 <ehird_> AnMaster: it could be HD porn!
20:49:22 <AnMaster> reason for using both: messing around with virtualbox on laptop and some 3D stuff on desktop
20:50:10 <AnMaster> oh btw ehird.... I get different PUIDs when ripping with laptop and desktop
20:50:19 <AnMaster> seems to be due to "length off by a few frames"
20:50:31 <AnMaster> a cd frame is like a fraction of a second
20:50:41 <AnMaster> ehird_, someone suggested pregap too
20:50:59 <ehird_> I have a CD with a song in the pregap
20:51:08 <ehird_> no computer cd drives in this house can see it
20:51:44 <AnMaster> anyway I used cdparanoia on both desktop and laptop...
20:51:45 <ehird_> on a stereo you can rewind from track 1
20:51:57 <AnMaster> for *most* tracks it is the same
20:52:07 <AnMaster> on one cd for example it was off for two tracsk
20:52:39 <AnMaster> don't know which is "correct", since I added the cd to MB myself a few weeks ago
20:52:46 <AnMaster> so don't have any reference to use
20:53:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, about eye tracker for mouse
20:53:53 <AnMaster> sure it would work nice a lot of the time, assuming the precision is good enough
20:53:55 <ehird_> eye tracker for mouse in an fps would be fun
20:54:11 <AnMaster> but, I often look somewhere else on screen after I already aimed mouse
20:54:20 <AnMaster> 1. look where I want to go, start moving
20:54:21 <ehird_> that + gun controller with trigger that acts as a click
20:54:25 <ehird_> and foot pedals for jumping
20:54:28 <AnMaster> 2. look elsewhere, read text or whatever
20:54:33 <ehird_> maybe a scroll wheel dealie on the other hand for switching weapons
20:54:36 <AnMaster> 3. click the place without looking at it
20:54:49 <ehird_> oh and another pedal for "forwards" of coures.
20:55:15 <oklopol> AnMaster: 1. look where I want to go, start moving ||| AnMaster: 2. look elsewhere, read text or whatever <<< with an eye tracker, this makes no sense
20:55:25 <oklopol> because at 1., you've done clicking.
20:55:32 <oklopol> that's the fucking beauty of it, not a problem of it
20:55:42 <ehird_> AnMaster: elbow licking controller
20:56:01 <AnMaster> oklopol, however, I sometimes don't want to move mouse, like when I'm dragging something, and then I look for checking something in a terminal, then continue to drag
20:56:07 <AnMaster> as in, verify while I'm doing it
20:56:11 <ehird_> just drag it over the terminal
20:56:25 <ehird_> i feel like clenching your eyes should be clicking
20:56:33 <oklopol> AnMaster: i'm not saying it works directly with the current ui's.
20:56:47 <AnMaster> ehird_, no, like you rest your elbow on the armrest of your chair, then your chin in your palm
20:56:54 <ehird_> AnMaster: no, elbow licking.
20:56:56 <AnMaster> then you move your elbow slightly
20:57:03 <AnMaster> ehird_, well that could work too
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20:57:36 <AnMaster> btw, how would you drag with that interface
20:57:54 <AnMaster> ehird_, anyway blink wouldn't work
20:58:01 <AnMaster> since human eyes blink every few seconds
20:58:19 <oklopol> you don't need a few seconds for anything mouse-related
20:58:25 <AnMaster> built in behaviour to keep the eye surface moist
20:58:38 <ehird_> AnMaster is telling us that our eyes blink automatically
20:58:39 <AnMaster> oklopol, I think you misunderstood
20:58:42 <oklopol> anyway i'd just have buttons.
20:58:54 <AnMaster> that would be mistaken for clicks
20:59:13 <AnMaster> oklopol, would work better but be less coool
20:59:15 <oklopol> AnMaster: yeah i know your point. i never suggested clicking
20:59:25 <oklopol> anyway eye clenching, why not
21:00:34 <oklopol> i would suggest having tons of little movements of the eyelids, but i do admit not everyone would probably like that
21:00:57 <oklopol> but you could get three clicks with just left clench, right clench, both clench
21:01:07 <ehird_> I think both should be left
21:01:10 <ehird_> since it's the easiest
21:01:23 <ehird_> oklopol: ooh i have a good one
21:01:29 <ehird_> rolling your eyes in the back of your head is scrolling.
21:01:40 <oklopol> i don't see a difference in easiness, but yeah it's relatively common for people not to like moving them separately
21:01:46 <MizardX> Facial expression controller
21:02:05 <oklopol> what do you mean rolling them in the back of your head?
21:02:21 <oklopol> like, upwards, until under the lids?
21:02:37 <oklopol> some people can't do that either
21:03:32 <fizzie> From what I hear, eye-tracking for control is pretty iffy, since the actual eye-movement stuff is not so very conscious, and the actual tracking systems that exist now are not very accurate. (An eye is not quite like a trackball ball, after all.)
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21:04:23 <oklopol> well if they aren't perfectly accurate, then it'd obviously suck
21:04:27 -!- coppro has joined.
21:05:14 <fizzie> The augmented-reality multimodal-interfaces people are playing with eye-trackers, I hear from them every now and then.
21:05:36 <fizzie> There's that http://www.pinview.eu/ project.
21:05:37 <oklopol> fizzie: i don't know about conscious, but whenever i want to click something, i look at it. so at least if there was like a button to start following eyes, it'd work for me
21:06:17 <ehird_> oklopol: i can't roll them in the back of my head either
21:06:23 <ehird_> since it makes you feel sick too from what i gather
21:06:43 <fizzie> Yes, I'm just not sure their "okay, now the user is actually consciously focusing on this thing" detection is so good. It can't just go around selecting everything you look at.
21:06:49 <ehird_> i can wiggle my ear if i smile...
21:07:18 <oklopol> ehird_: i can do it easily
21:07:25 <AnMaster> I can wiggle my ears up/down easily
21:07:41 <oklopol> i can make my eyes shake around wildly
21:07:45 <AnMaster> can't do the "eyes under eyelids"
21:07:58 <oklopol> they don't make a sound though
21:08:10 <AnMaster> I can move my ears separately, but not easily
21:08:14 <fizzie> Someone else did a freaky vibro-eyes thing too, I've forgotten who it was.
21:08:20 <ehird_> okay i have come up with an interface that almost all humans will like to use
21:08:26 <oklopol> AnMaster: I can move my ears separately, but not easily <<< i never learned that :<
21:08:32 <ehird_> basically, you have sex, and it measures you having sex, and performs actions based on it
21:08:41 <AnMaster> oklopol, well, it is more like "one moves a lot, the other moves a tiny bit"
21:08:49 <AnMaster> rather than "one moves, the other doesn't"
21:08:50 <ehird_> i hear its fundamental controller is very popular
21:08:56 <oklopol> ehird_: i can wiggle my ear if i smile... <<< i can do it without smiling, and i can do it for my nose too.
21:09:24 <oklopol> fizzie: Someone else did a freaky vibro-eyes thing too, I've forgotten who it was. <<< i have two completely different vibrations!
21:09:29 <AnMaster> <ehird_> basically, you have sex, and it measures you having sex, and performs actions based on it <-- measure how? As in "in what position" or what?
21:09:42 <fizzie> Speaking of that fundamental controller, this is an old thing but still a bit related, http://web.media.mit.edu/~hayes/mas863/urinecontrol.html
21:09:44 <ehird_> AnMaster: just, like, micromeasurements
21:09:52 <AnMaster> <oklopol> ehird_: i can wiggle my ear if i smile... <<< i can do it without smiling, and i can do it for my nose too. <-- what about eyebrows?
21:10:05 <ehird_> fizzie: does it involve trying to hit various flies in the urinal
21:10:42 <oklopol> AnMaster: oklopol, are they still? <<< no, which makes it trivial and uninteresting; damn you for asking :P
21:10:58 <oklopol> well for the nose, they are still
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21:11:26 <oklopol> anyway, these facial things are goddamn hard to learn, and they say many can't be learned at all, like the tongue things
21:11:42 <oklopol> so i consider the fact i've been able to learn them mostly luck
21:12:02 <AnMaster> yes some are genetic controlled
21:12:18 <AnMaster> some of the tongue ones for example
21:12:24 <oklopol> not that i can imagine anyone except myself actually making an effort towards learning them, but probably there have been some studies
21:12:26 <AnMaster> ehird_, yep that is one of them
21:12:42 <ehird_> it's easy you just like
21:12:44 <oklopol> ehird_: i can roll it in two ways
21:12:51 <AnMaster> ehird_, you have the recessive gene then
21:12:53 <ehird_> well i can do the tube thing
21:12:57 <oklopol> it's the weird wave thing, making it look like a flower, that i can't do
21:13:09 <ehird_> then unfold that and the next bit
21:13:12 <AnMaster> ehird_, how far up/down can you reach
21:13:21 <ehird_> AnMaster: like, my tougue?
21:13:34 <AnMaster> ehird_, as in, stick it out, try to touch your nose/beard
21:13:43 <ehird_> i'm 13. i don't have a beard.
21:13:50 <ehird_> i can touch just below the tip of my nose
21:13:57 <ehird_> and i'm a little bit away from the curve of my chin
21:14:03 <AnMaster> <ehird_> i can touch just below the tip of my nose <-- same
21:14:11 <AnMaster> <ehird_> and i'm a little bit away from the curve of my chin <-- I can do a bit more
21:14:19 <AnMaster> as in, quite a far bit downwards
21:14:22 <oklopol> i have a tiny almost invisible beard, people usually laugh at me when i tell them i've never shaved it
21:14:26 <ehird_> i say a bit, i'm really quite far away frmo it
21:14:56 <fizzie> Soon you'll be comparing tongue size with rulers.
21:15:17 <AnMaster> <oklopol> i have a tiny almost invisible beard, people usually laugh at me when i tell them i've never shaved it <-- I shave whenever the moustache causes problems with eating
21:15:24 <AnMaster> which is usually every second month or so
21:15:45 <AnMaster> so quite a short beard and moustache atm
21:16:14 <ehird_> moustaches are the worst things to happen to faces
21:16:17 <AnMaster> however, this is all due to laziness
21:16:28 <AnMaster> ehird_, nah, not when they are connected to the beards
21:17:13 <AnMaster> ehird_, think full beard, old sailor with pipe in his mouth, there is a moustache there too, but it's ends would be connected to the beard
21:17:39 <ehird_> I don't want to think about Alan's cocks.
21:17:51 <fizzie> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Alan_Cox_at_FOSS_2007.jpg is I guess reasonably current.
21:18:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, similiar, but Alan Cox's facial hair is kind of... unordered?
21:18:08 <ehird_> i want to grow a beard that trails
21:18:11 <fizzie> Yes, you could call it that.
21:18:12 <oklopol> a moustache is okay if it's significantly smaller than the beard
21:18:12 <ehird_> like, around the whole room
21:18:35 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's just so dynamic! Vibrant! Energized! (See, my adjectives are far more positive.)
21:19:24 <AnMaster> ok that was interesting... I closed firefox, saving tabs. then five seconds later it, it reopened, resaved tabs, and closed again
21:20:19 <ehird_> email quote syntaxes suck
21:20:35 <AnMaster> ehird_, hm? maybe something xml based would be better
21:20:51 <ehird_> [[On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 10:39, Elliott Hird <penguinofthegods@googlemail.com> wrote:]]
21:20:54 <ehird_> could be written just as well as
21:21:05 <ehird_> [[Elliott Hird, today:]]
21:21:21 <ehird_> or, if it wasn't the same day,
21:21:25 <fizzie> I don't think he's at Red Hat nowadays; certainly worked there a lot, though.
21:21:30 <ehird_> [[Elliott Hird, 2009-08-14:]]
21:21:34 <fizzie> Yes, "Alan was employed by Linux distributor Red Hat for ten years, leaving in January 2009. He is now employed by Intel."
21:21:34 <ehird_> i guess gmail's comes close
21:21:38 <AnMaster> ehird_, well it is also l10n usually
21:21:41 <ehird_> hmm those , and : are rather unneeded
21:21:56 <ehird_> AnMaster: dude, you archive the message date.
21:22:20 <AnMaster> ehird_, well. why the additional logic trying to interpret that
21:22:26 <AnMaster> rather, have a standard format
21:22:41 <ehird_> because email is for human
21:22:47 <AnMaster> and then have the mail program/site translate it
21:22:59 <fizzie> rec.games.roguelike.nethack used to have quite a few decidedly non-standard quote headers.
21:23:27 <ehird_> "ELLIOTT HIRD WONDERED LONELY AS A CLOUD AND THEN VOMITED THIS MESSAGE - LOOK AREN'T I COOL I HAVE A CUSTOM QUOTE HEADER -"
21:23:39 <fizzie> I'm not sure I can find some, but you can guess the style. And I suppose they really would actually be quite rare, just selection bias in memory.
21:23:45 <ehird_> including the date in the quote header
21:23:48 <ehird_> is totally unneccesary
21:23:55 <ehird_> since you can trivially find the original message in a threaded system
21:24:14 <AnMaster> ehird_, there is an issue, what if you don't have the original
21:24:34 <ehird_> you should forward it in mbox format or whatever
21:24:38 <ehird_> besides, date isn't the only thing you'd miss
21:24:41 <ehird_> you'd miss subjects too etc
21:24:48 <ehird_> AnMaster: no, mbox. because it's one file.
21:25:10 <ehird_> uhh, mbox is standard.
21:25:11 <AnMaster> there would be NO way we would end up with one format
21:25:23 <ehird_> i don't fucking care about standardisation
21:25:32 <ehird_> AnMaster: variants don't matter, it's for human consumption
21:25:41 <AnMaster> ehird_, From: has to be quoted
21:25:41 <ehird_> nobody will adopt this quote format except me
21:25:44 <ehird_> so only i have to care
21:25:47 <ehird_> AnMaster: NOT TO THE HUMAN BRAIN!
21:25:50 <ehird_> only to a dumb machine parser
21:26:00 <AnMaster> ehird_, well, why use mbox then
21:26:01 <ehird_> we're talking about forwarding, to humans
21:26:09 <ehird_> AnMaster: because it's standard, pretty easy to read
21:26:13 <ehird_> and everything has support for it already
21:26:55 <oklopol> you're such an annoying practicalist
21:27:25 <fizzie> I would think the date-in-quote-header would be more useful in the case where someone Cc:s you in a reply; it sounds a bit complicated to start sending mbox files around at that point.
21:27:34 <ehird_> it's just 'From <some crap>', message
21:27:40 <ehird_> (raw message, inc headers)
21:27:48 <ehird_> fizzie: why is date so important
21:27:53 <ehird_> why date and not everything else too
21:28:13 <ehird_> besides, clients add reply-to headers
21:28:17 <ehird_> that's how threading works
21:28:28 <ehird_> why are you so obsessed with date and time?
21:28:34 <AnMaster> ehird_, yes, but for CC you wouldn't have the metadata of the original mail
21:28:41 <AnMaster> unless it was in some mailing list
21:29:19 <AnMaster> ehird_, because that and email are the only useful ones? Possibly subject too
21:29:29 <AnMaster> but stuff like X-Mail-Client or whatever
21:29:35 <ehird_> <me> why is date so useful
21:29:35 <ehird_> <AnMaster> because date is useful
21:30:09 <AnMaster> ehird_, well, I can't see why it would be *less* useful than most other headers
21:30:13 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure how useful the date is, but it's certainly more useful than the other headers, discounting from/to/subject, which you would get in the "cc'd reply" case.
21:30:30 <ehird_> to understand the message all you need is the name
21:30:47 <AnMaster> like, if there is a misunderstanding between three persons
21:30:52 <ehird_> what if it's a flamewar about the subject
21:30:55 <ehird_> then the subject is important
21:30:59 <ehird_> let's include the subject too!
21:31:12 <AnMaster> ehird_, sounds like it might be useful
21:31:27 <ehird_> congrats, I just reductio ad absurdum'd your ass
21:31:32 <AnMaster> for "internal timeline purposes"
21:31:34 <ehird_> you just suggested putting the subject in quote lines.
21:32:01 <AnMaster> ehird_, I think it might be reasonable yes
21:32:12 -!- coppro has joined.
21:32:15 <ehird_> so let's include every header, just in case
21:32:18 <fizzie> Whoa! I just realized this conversation is going nowhere!
21:32:22 <ehird_> maybe it's a flamewar about someone using outlook
21:32:26 <AnMaster> ehird_, can you prove subject isn't useful?
21:32:32 <AnMaster> you asked me to prove date was useful
21:32:36 <ehird_> AnMaster: can you prove god doesn't exist?
21:32:44 <ehird_> also, ↑ about mail client.
21:32:58 <fizzie> Can you prove oklopol exists! That's something I've often wondered.
21:32:59 <AnMaster> ehird_, then you asked me to prove the something similar
21:33:07 <AnMaster> in which case you were just trolling
21:33:20 <ehird_> you're ignoring my analogous argument because it reflects badly on yorus
21:33:31 <oklopol> fizzie: pay for a train ticket, and you'll have your proof
21:33:54 <fizzie> Ah, that's just be some starlight reflecting from swamp gas if I saw you.
21:34:05 <fizzie> A weather balloon or something.
21:34:14 <ehird_> i should go and meet oklopol sometime, always wondered what it's like to be murdered
21:34:46 <oklopol> ehird_: actually finland outlawed murder
21:34:51 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:34:55 <ehird_> oklopol: you pirate things on bittorrent
21:34:57 <ehird_> that's illegal too innit
21:35:08 <oklopol> ehird_: yes, but torrents don't have worried mums
21:35:17 <ehird_> so kill my mother first.
21:35:23 <fizzie> "When you pirate software, you're murdering ehird."
21:35:35 <fizzie> "Please think of the ehirds."
21:35:51 <oklopol> ehird_: could you bring her along, i mean i'm not interested in coming to britain atm?
21:36:35 <oklopol> also bring the 30 you owe me
21:37:31 <ehird_> oklopol: why not do two illegal things before breakfast!
21:37:59 * AnMaster re-reads IWC (it was so many hours ago I read it, I forgot it)
21:38:11 <oklopol> murdering is just illegal, i don't think euthanasia is wrong, although i do think it should be outlawed
21:38:27 <ais523> oklopol: it's rare for someone to think that something isn't wrong but should be illegal
21:38:32 <ehird_> oklopol: why outlaw it if it's wrong? xP
21:38:34 <oklopol> i guess euthanasia can't be used unless you have like cancer, but anyway
21:38:40 <ehird_> i like how oklopol equates euthanasia with murder
21:38:45 <ehird_> "I'm saving you from the horrors of nihilism!"
21:39:14 <oklopol> ehird_: naturally i don't think it'd be right to murder you if you didn't ask for it.
21:39:18 <oklopol> also even if you did, i wouldn't believe you
21:39:23 <ehird_> oklopol: but then it's not murder!
21:39:26 <oerjan> AnMaster: this seems a bit ahistorical, isn't the indiana jones theme supposed to be _before_ ww2
21:39:44 <oklopol> but, if i did believe you, and the law couldn't catch me, i probably might murder you. but, that's completely hypothetical.
21:39:59 <oklopol> ehird_: well right, i guess it's not murder.
21:40:01 * ehird_ wonders what to call this http server
21:40:08 <oerjan> and the us didn't start on an atomic bomb until they joined the war, i think
21:40:31 <oklopol> ais523: it should be illegal, because no one should be able to kill someone else if they have their signature for approval.
21:40:54 <oklopol> still, there's nothing wrong with having done so, if that signature is not a fake, and hasn't been forced.
21:41:09 <oklopol> there's nothing controversial about that, law is not enforced by a god.
21:41:29 <ehird_> oklopol: what you're saying is you think murder is wrong and illegal
21:41:33 <oklopol> also, for the record, i'm not going to murder anyone :P
21:41:33 <ehird_> but consensual killing is neither
21:41:54 <ehird_> but you're warping this to "consensual killing is the same as murder, and murder is okay but should be illegal"
21:41:58 <oklopol> ehird_: consensual killing should be illegal, but it isn't wrong, that i say.
21:42:11 <ehird_> oklopol: ...but why should something that isn't wrong be illegal?
21:42:19 <oklopol> "murder" is never neither, i haven't been talking about murder, even if i've used the term.
21:42:29 <oklopol> ehird_: i already explained that
21:42:38 <ehird_> [21:40] oklopol: ais523: it should be illegal, because no one should be able to kill someone else if they have their signature for approval.
21:42:39 <fizzie> Murder's never wrong or illegal?
21:42:40 <oklopol> because nothing should be proof enough that it's consensual.
21:42:52 <ehird_> oklopol: but that isn't how it works!
21:42:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, before or during the first part iirc
21:43:05 <oerjan> AnMaster: hm, einstein's letter was a month before ww2 started
21:43:21 <oerjan> before that, the americans didn't even have the idea
21:44:07 * ehird_ considers naming this program two-letteredly
21:44:13 <ehird_> and polluting the unix namespace further!
21:44:31 <AnMaster> ehird_, I'm sure I would never install any of your apps then :P
21:44:55 <oklopol> how is that not how it works, law is for rules that are useful for keeping the society in order, right and wrong are just ideals, in an imperfect society, they do not mean the same thing
21:45:08 <ehird_> http://st.suckless.org/, http://tools.suckless.org/ii
21:45:16 <oklopol> with perfect information, and perfect enforcement, they can be the same thing
21:45:24 <oklopol> anyway, i hope at least ais523 got my point
21:45:28 <ehird_> oklopol: i guess i understand
21:45:42 <ehird_> i think that it's very possible to prove you want to die
21:45:44 <oklopol> oh? you seem to be getting soft, or then i'm getting more intelligent.
21:45:57 <oklopol> i never used to get you to admit anything, even if i mathematically prove you wrong
21:46:03 <AnMaster> The program consists of a single window (There are no nested windows, such as in Xpdf) <-- xpdf uses nested windows?
21:46:12 <oklopol> ehird_: yes, very possible to prove it to me
21:46:14 <AnMaster> from http://suckless.org/common/cool_programs
21:46:27 <ehird_> if you can prove to a court that you honestly want to sincerely end your life, then it's legal to be killed
21:46:35 <ehird_> although i think suicide should always be legal, no questions asked
21:46:42 <ehird_> it is in the UK i think
21:46:45 <ehird_> just not assisting suicide
21:46:49 <ehird_> which is basically... anything
21:46:57 <ehird_> prolly including saying "well, if that's your choice"
21:47:24 <AnMaster> ehird_, angle of viewing is very good on this laptop, I have it 50 degrees or so and it is still pretty much the right colours
21:47:42 <ehird_> AnMaster: heh, people have said it isn't too good on the x200, but the screen is the same
21:47:44 <AnMaster> maybe slightly more contrast than right ahead
21:47:54 <oklopol> well. maybe consensual killing should be legal in some situations, but that's a much more complicated subject, and i don't want to touch it.
21:48:03 <AnMaster> however, at around 65 degrees the colours suddenly invert
21:48:05 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, xpdf has some sort of document-model thing; you occasionally get a bit wonky focus behaviour in it.
21:48:12 <ehird_> AnMaster: yeah, LCDs do that
21:48:19 <ehird_> this IPS screen is the bomb
21:48:40 <ehird_> no dead pixels that I notice, basically infinite viewing angle
21:48:48 <AnMaster> well, 50 degrees is enough to have laptop in front of desktop monitor
21:48:54 <AnMaster> and be able to see both screens completel
21:49:06 <AnMaster> now is the issue with typing still to solve
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21:49:16 <AnMaster> I would want ONE keyboard + eye tracking to figure out which
21:49:17 <ehird_> hmm defining a compatible subset of http is a bitch
21:49:24 <ehird_> AnMaster: just use sloppy focus
21:49:34 <ehird_> (note: sloppy focus != focus-follows mouse)
21:49:45 <ehird_> AnMaster: sloppy focus = keyboard focus follows mouse, but click to raise
21:49:50 <ehird_> Linus Torvalds loves it
21:49:58 <ehird_> and so do a bunch of other unixheads
21:50:09 <ehird_> AnMaster: then just use synergy to map keyboard to mouse
21:50:25 <ehird_> mouse on computer = kb on computer
21:50:34 <ehird_> you know what would be cool in a synergy-like thing + ehirdOS?
21:50:40 <ehird_> xinerama for the objects, across machines
21:50:43 <AnMaster> ehird_, can I use the keyboard of either computer then to control the other
21:50:45 <ehird_> drag the object across, voila! it's migrated
21:50:49 <ehird_> including any in-prgoress computation
21:50:58 <AnMaster> or does one need to be "the controlling end"
21:51:11 <ais523> hey, an iPhone advert just came on
21:51:19 <ais523> talking about all the stuff you can do with copy-and-paste
21:51:31 <AnMaster> ehird_, basically I have mouse connected to desktop and I want to use either laptop trackball or that mouse to control either computer
21:51:34 <ehird_> to be fair the iphone's copy-and-paste implementation is very elegant
21:51:41 <ehird_> AnMaster: not trackball
21:51:45 <ais523> how does it work? it looked like double-clicking from the animation
21:51:47 <ehird_> or, well, nipple mouse
21:52:02 <AnMaster> ehird_, oh and, how does synergy + mouse grabbing apps like virtualbox?
21:52:02 <ehird_> ais523: hold across a word/whatever to select, then release
21:52:09 <ehird_> where text is highlighted
21:52:09 <ais523> I've seen laptops with a trackball, but they aren't common any more
21:52:15 <ehird_> drag each | to change the selection
21:52:21 <AnMaster> ehird_, since I'm using such atm
21:52:25 <ehird_> you can also eg press backspace then
21:52:32 <ehird_> ais523: another way is
21:52:36 <ehird_> hold down to bring up the focusing thingy
21:52:39 <ehird_> then mouse over the word
21:52:45 <AnMaster> ehird_, even cooler idea: drag windows between computers as you wanted
21:52:45 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure whether synergy supports that sort of configuration; the docs are all "Run the server on the computer that has the keyboard and mouse to be shared."
21:52:51 <ehird_> AnMaster: uhh, that's what I said
21:52:57 <ehird_> and it'd migrate the computation too
21:53:01 <ehird_> it'd actually move computer
21:53:17 <ehird_> anyway, as i was saying, [21:49] ehird_: hmm defining a compatible subset of http is a bitch
21:53:24 <ehird_> servers expect you to say 'GET / HTTP/1.1'
21:53:31 <ehird_> and barf on, e.g. 'GET / HTTP/2.0'
21:53:43 <ehird_> let alone 'GET / HTTP/saner'
21:53:53 <ehird_> so you have to mandate saying 'HTTP/1.1' in your spec
21:54:07 <ehird_> anyway it was just an example
21:54:27 <fizzie> Apache doesn't mind "GET / HTTP/2.0\nHost: ...", it just replies with HTTP/1.1 200 OK. Other servers might mind, though.
21:54:43 <AnMaster> ehird_, anyway, how does synergy + input grabbing apps work?
21:54:54 <ehird_> % nc www.google.co.uk 80
21:54:54 <ehird_> Host: www.google.co.uk
21:54:54 <ehird_> HTTP/1.1 400 Bad Request
21:54:59 <ehird_> AnMaster: erm, that's the whole point of synergy.
21:55:12 <fizzie> AnMaster: At least synergy with a full-screen game (with a mouse-grabbing scroll-at-screen-border thing) has worked fine.
21:55:33 <AnMaster> then virtualbox should not be an issue
21:55:54 <fizzie> Apache even accepts that "GET / HTTP/sane". That's one helpful server.
21:56:18 <AnMaster> ehird_, an issue with the "move between computers" thingy is when the app is a 3D one...
21:56:28 <ehird_> again, migrate the actual object
21:56:36 <ehird_> computation being sluggish? drag it to your server.
21:57:23 <AnMaster> ehird_, if an app suddenly ended up linked to libgl-nvidia.so instead of libgl-mesa.so thing would go very strange indeed
21:57:38 <fizzie> I doubt that's a problem with ehirdOS; ehirdOS is so clever.
21:58:30 <oklopol> that almost sounded like sarcasm
21:58:39 <fizzie> Synergy has two rather funny "avoid accidental flips" things; switchDelay and switchDoubleTap. The first is your normal "has to stay at the border for N milliseconds", but the second one is more curious; you have to hit the border twice (move to edge, move away, move back) within the specified time in order to get to the other screen.
21:59:01 <oklopol> fizzie: are you on your period or something? i mean that's kinda not like you.
21:59:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, the latter sounds silly
21:59:29 <oklopol> and one of your things is sticking to your ways
21:59:36 <fizzie> oklopol: Must've been some cosmic radiation flipping a sarcasm bit.
21:59:36 <oklopol> so it confuses me when you do that!
21:59:54 <AnMaster> can you describe a 3D situation that may change
22:00:04 <oklopol> sarcastic logic: 4-valued logic with just 2 symbols
22:00:50 <oklopol> or should that be sarcasm logic
22:00:54 <AnMaster> laptop is standing besides desktop monitor, laptop screen top ends at about 2/5 of the desktop screen side
22:00:59 <AnMaster> and it starts below the desktop screen
22:01:14 <AnMaster> also it is standing at an angle
22:01:41 <oklopol> also that sarcasm joke was probably the best boolean algebra joke i've ever heard
22:02:40 <fizzie> AnMaster: You can specify arbitrary ranges of borders that are linked to equally arbitrary ranges of borders on other screens. I'm not quite sure how you'd want it to take into account the angle, though, since it's not like you can displace the cursor out from the monitor plane.
22:03:04 <fizzie> And dynamic changes in the configuration might be a bit iffy, haven't tried that.
22:03:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, sure you can, if you use compiz
22:03:18 <AnMaster> it should just be a matter of some 3D cube thingy animation bling-bling
22:03:35 <fizzie> Right, well, it doesn't do that.
22:03:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, good thing, since I don't use compiz
22:03:59 <AnMaster> (compiz fucks up with 3D in virtualbox)
22:04:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway. how does one get started with it
22:04:37 <AnMaster> one computer use a static xorg.conf, no hal crap
22:04:42 * oerjan wishes the rss feed for the esolang forum included comments
22:04:44 <AnMaster> the other is a crapfeast of hal on ubuntu
22:04:49 <fizzie> But you can tell it that if the mouse enters the short bit from 33% to 42% in the left border of the laptop screen, it enters from the range 22% to 77% from top of the desktop, if you want.
22:05:22 <oerjan> yes. not much used though.
22:05:43 <fizzie> I use synergy so rarely that I just wrote a synergy.conf on the computer with the mouse and keyboard, and start that manually when I need it. I assume it's been packetized everywhere.
22:05:45 <oerjan> same host as the wiki.
22:06:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, I want either computer's input device to be able to control that of the other
22:06:09 <fizzie> Yes, like I said, I'm not sure it supports that.
22:07:08 <fizzie> Well, I don't know how it's done with synergy, if it can be done.
22:07:30 <AnMaster> "The first step is to pick which keyboard and mouse you want to share. The computer with that keyboard and mouse is called the "primary screen" and it runs the synergy server. All of the other computers are "secondary screens" and run the synergy client."
22:08:32 <oerjan> AnMaster: anyway there was a new post today, which i answered, and then i realized rss won't tell me if there are further responses.
22:09:48 <oerjan> the all threads page show latest post dates, though
22:12:05 <fizzie> For some reason post #3 of the "Esoteric Programming" thread looks like it would belong to someone on #esoteric.
22:13:10 <fizzie> oklopol: http://esolangs.org/forum/kareha.pl/1192759617/l50
22:13:48 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's not exactly a big problem
22:14:05 <oerjan> it was more trolling than spam that one, i think
22:14:28 <ais523> wow, I forgot the esoforum existed
22:15:16 <oerjan> easy to do, thus i subscribed to the rss
22:15:35 <AnMaster> ok post three's style sound familiar
22:16:24 <oklopol> Slereah_ once printed a massive ascii pic iirc
22:16:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, the newlines there seem more ehird_'s style
22:17:22 <oklopol> ehird_ usually paste spams only relevant data, although not always relevant enough to be paste spammed
22:18:01 <AnMaster> ehird_, was different a few years ago
22:18:10 <AnMaster> 3 Name: Anonymous : 2007-10-19 02:13 ID:uedzKvu7
22:18:32 <AnMaster> but I agree. it isn't his style to do ascii art spam
22:18:54 <AnMaster> ascii art that fails since the site uses non-fixed font
22:19:02 <oklopol> "my other car is a cdr" isn't his style either
22:19:13 <oklopol> i'm fairly sure he'd consider it old and stupid
22:19:49 <AnMaster> the "<beep>\nAlso <beep>" is his style though
22:19:57 <oklopol> should i send the lecturer along listing of errors in his material?
22:20:20 <AnMaster> oklopol, not until you got the final marks in that course!
22:20:46 <oklopol> this is pretty exact science
22:20:54 <AnMaster> <oklopol> should i send the lecturer along listing of errors in his material? <-- also, "send along"? Didn't you mean "send a long"?
22:20:58 <oklopol> and the feedback is usually positive
22:21:17 <oklopol> i tend to make a lot of mistakes
22:21:58 <oklopol> i don't need to, because i only do one joke per message :)
22:23:00 -!- ehird_ has quit.
22:36:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, synergy seems to work well for one host controlling the rest
22:37:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, can't find the "2/3rd" thingy
22:42:11 -!- ehird has joined.
22:42:36 -!- ehird has left (?).
22:42:41 -!- ehird has joined.
22:43:11 <ehird> 13:57:23 <AnMaster> ehird_, if an app suddenly ended up linked to libgl-nvidia.so instead of libgl-mesa.so thing would go very strange indeed
22:43:12 <ehird> 13:57:30 <AnMaster> as an example
22:43:12 <ehird> 13:57:38 <fizzie> I doubt that's a problem with ehirdOS; ehirdOS is so clever.
22:43:23 <ehird> if by clever you mean has a non-shitty design.
22:43:35 <AnMaster> ehird, still synergy is one-way only...
22:44:20 <ehird> 14:04:44 <AnMaster> the other is a crapfeast of hal on ubuntu
22:44:25 <ehird> but err, non-duplicated configuration is crap?
22:44:31 <ehird> linux users are...... stupid
22:44:43 <ehird> but the basic concept is fine
22:44:47 <AnMaster> hopefully for something better
22:44:49 <ehird> AnMaster: it's being replaced by its linux replacement
22:44:54 <ehird> which is basically the same but better
22:45:08 <AnMaster> if so there are some config issues
22:45:10 <ehird> hal is being replaced
22:45:26 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean, how do you configure joystick X11 driver for example
22:45:34 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeviceKit
22:45:37 <ehird> Fedora 11 includes it
22:47:17 <ehird> 14:04:58 <AnMaster> oerjan, we have a forum?
22:47:18 <ehird> 14:05:10 <AnMaster> *blink*
22:47:18 <ehird> 14:05:18 <AnMaster> where?
22:47:18 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/forum/
22:47:25 <ehird> the nice, anonymous kind too
22:47:29 <ehird> although most posters don't seem to realise that
22:47:52 <AnMaster> ehird, can you stop doing the log reading more than once / day please ;P
22:48:11 <ehird> 14:07:34 <AnMaster> ehird_, ^ you lied
22:48:31 <AnMaster> ehird, you seemed to indicate you were completely sure
22:48:49 <ehird> 14:14:05 <oerjan> it was more trolling than spam that one, i think
22:49:37 <ehird> you, you /prog/lodytes.
22:50:04 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
22:51:06 <ehird> 14:18:54 <AnMaster> ascii art that fails since the site uses non-fixed font
22:51:19 <ehird> you just need the right font.
22:51:36 <ehird> MS PGothic, or for X11, Mona
22:51:40 <ehird> it's Shift_JIS art
22:51:52 <AnMaster> ehird, how did you figure that out
22:51:53 <ehird> AnMaster: because I know a lot about the 2channel/world4ch culture
22:52:04 <ehird> also, Mona was specifically created to have the same metrics as MS PGothic
22:52:08 <AnMaster> ehird, sure you didn't post it?
22:52:58 <ehird> anyway no point worrying about authorship, it's anonymous for a reason
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22:54:59 <ehird> 14:19:02 <oklopol> "my other car is a cdr" isn't his style either
22:54:59 <ehird> 14:19:13 <oklopol> i'm fairly sure he'd consider it old and stupid
22:54:59 <ehird> no, I like that quote
22:55:09 <ehird> 14:19:49 <AnMaster> the "<beep>\nAlso <beep>" is his style though
22:55:10 <ehird> no, that's meme's style
22:55:24 <ehird> AnMaster: read http://wakaba.c3.cx/shii/
22:55:35 <ehird> if you say tl;dr, I will stab you and force you to never read anything again
22:56:40 * oerjan thinks ehird must be getting a long list of people to stab
22:56:46 <ehird> people are idiots.
22:58:00 <ehird> 14:20:49 <oklopol> and i don't make mistakes
22:58:01 <ehird> 14:21:17 <oklopol> i tend to make a lot of mistakes
22:58:46 * ehird wonders what on earth AnMaster wants to say to oerjan that's so secret and important
22:59:39 <ais523> telling people to see /msg in-channel doesn't really work, they might not notice
22:59:43 <ais523> do it in a /msg to make sure they see it
23:00:02 <AnMaster> ais523, except I don't normally notice /msg unless someone mentions it in channel
23:00:14 <ehird> oerjan: tell us what he said!
23:00:17 <ais523> AnMaster: set your client up to let you know when someone /msgs you, though
23:00:23 <ais523> it leaves a red tab and a flashing icon for me
23:00:27 <AnMaster> ehird, oh it was a password for a website. Nothing important
23:00:40 <oklopol> ehird: no, I like that quote <<< okay, but i'm sure you could've hated it
23:00:46 <ehird> i share my password aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall the time
23:00:50 <AnMaster> ais523, issue: channel list is longer than fits on screen
23:00:53 <oerjan> my irssi splits the window automatically on a msg
23:01:05 <oerjan> pretty hard not to notice
23:01:11 <AnMaster> ehird, no as in "bugmenot" kind of share
23:01:25 <AnMaster> ais523, even freenode alone is longer than fits on screen
23:01:36 <ais523> AnMaster: then make the channel tabs smaller
23:01:39 <ehird> ah right to kinkyesotericporn.com, where they fuck brains and ejaculate underloads
23:01:42 <ais523> that was my solution to that problem
23:01:45 <ehird> (↑ man that was a terrible joke)
23:01:51 <ehird> ais523: he has 500 tabs.
23:01:56 <AnMaster> ais523, they are in a tightly packed list at 6 points font
23:01:57 <ehird> over 500 channels + consoles + talks
23:02:14 <ehird> ais523: don't try and tell him to leave the ones he doesn't talk in or look at, he won't understand you
23:02:22 <AnMaster> ehird, over 500 channels alone
23:02:23 <ehird> he speaks in a language almost entirely like english apart from that
23:02:31 <ehird> AnMaster: you parsed it wrong.
23:02:38 <ais523> heh, he's still in #feather-lang
23:02:54 <AnMaster> ais523, yes I'm waiting for you
23:03:07 <ais523> I'll go in there if there's progress
23:03:11 <ais523> but I'll let #esoteric know at the same time
23:03:27 <AnMaster> * oklopol (n=oklopol@a91-153-125-186.elisa-laajakaista.fi) has joined #feather-lang
23:03:46 <oklopol> yes, big news, i join every channel i see, and part them when my client crashes :)
23:04:55 <AnMaster> ais523, wow you missed lots of action in #feather-lang
23:05:45 <ais523> any /interesting/ action?
23:05:57 <ais523> was it Feather-related?
23:06:46 <ais523> and I saw your msg before you told me, and it was obviously a log
23:07:04 <oklopol> AnMaster: oklopol, what about # <<< can't join it by clicking, and it doesn't look like a channel to me, so i usually wouldn't
23:07:17 <oklopol> when oerjan said #3 earlier, i joined it
23:08:04 <AnMaster> oklopol, you know the effect? right
23:08:19 <AnMaster> oklopol, I half *hoped* you wouldn't
23:08:38 <AnMaster> except then the , was some odd similar looking unicode symbol
23:08:47 <AnMaster> on a network allowing unicode in channel names
23:09:21 <AnMaster> ais523, know a good news client for linux?
23:09:41 <ais523> AnMaster: no, although I've heard Thunderbird is decent
23:09:44 <AnMaster> tried knode, doesn't work well
23:09:47 <pikhq> Oh, you asked for "good".
23:09:49 <oklopol> but as usual, i've read about it.
23:09:53 <ais523> can't recommend it as I haven't used it myself
23:10:10 <AnMaster> also this is news = usenet, not news = some silly rss feed or such
23:10:30 <AnMaster> ais523, should be able to handle binary channels too btw
23:11:20 <AnMaster> (as in, be able to handle yydecode and "split over several messages" well)
23:12:38 <AnMaster> why: because I use a news server that is ipv6 only
23:12:55 <ais523> isn't IPvN support an OS issue, not a client issue?
23:13:09 <AnMaster> ais523, different socket types
23:23:16 <GregorR> I've used Thunderbird for NNTP, it works quite well actually.
23:25:28 <fizzie> I've used Pan, and it works reasonably well.
23:25:32 <fizzie> http://pan.rebelbase.com/
23:25:48 <fizzie> Though I've also used Thunderbird, and it wasn't too awful either.
23:25:58 <fizzie> Still, Pan's news-only, so they do some things better.
23:37:51 <GregorR> I use thunderbird for mail+news+RSS
23:38:01 <GregorR> As an all-in-one, it's pretty sweet.
23:40:17 <pikhq> http://codetojoy.blogspot.com/2008/04/open-source-group-announces-jjava.html
23:40:21 <oklopol> http://esolangs.org/forum/kareha.pl/1192759617/l50 <<< i find #7 a lot more annoying than #3
23:40:40 <pikhq> For "busy Java programmers" that "don't have time to learn a new syntax".
23:41:32 <pikhq> ... Yes, because the *syntax* is the hard thing to learn about a new language...
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23:49:55 <ais523> someone ported Java to the JVM?
23:50:51 <pikhq> ais523: Took them long enough.
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