00:02:41 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
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00:12:37 <oerjan> fornication under consent of king
00:14:00 * ehird switches to ported rc w/ readline
00:14:06 <ehird> rlwrap was fucking up
00:14:16 * ehird changes prompt from ; to %
00:17:10 <ehird> ; as a prompt could be nice
00:17:14 <ehird> since it causes rc to ignore the prompt
00:24:38 <ehird> okiedokie, I am now using rc as my full-time shell
00:24:58 <ehird> hmm this could interact stickily with plan9port tools using their rc
00:34:55 <ehird> [[A bogger called Josh]] — The Register, referring to Joey Hess.
00:35:02 <ehird> El Reg, the paragon of journalism!
00:35:10 <ehird> And accuracy. And not making mistakes.
00:40:22 <GregorR> They got the first two letters right, that's 50%!
00:40:47 <ehird> GregorR: O RLY? "bogger"
00:41:26 <GregorR> Oh, missed that entirely :P
00:41:40 <ehird> [["Friends do not let friends use IE6," said Amy Barzdukas, Microsoft's general manager for Internet Explorer.
00:41:41 <ehird> "If you are in my social set and I have been to your house for dinner, you are not using IE6," she said.]]
00:42:46 <ehird> "IE8 has been downloaded roughly 250,000 times since its March release"
00:42:56 <ehird> that's only like 2x the downloads for the haskell platform windows installer
00:44:51 <pikhq> ... Firefox gets more downloads on release day, doesn't it?
00:46:42 <pikhq> GrayGnome`: Needs more monads.
00:46:59 * coppro has never quite gotten monads
00:47:02 <GrayGnome`> I never managed to wrap my head around monads though.
00:47:12 <oerjan> pikhq: it _has_ monads, iirc
00:47:22 <coppro> since I can't find a good source about monads
00:47:32 <coppro> all I know about monads is that the wIkipedia article sucks
00:47:34 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:47:37 <coppro> and that's about as far as I've gotten
00:47:47 <GrayGnome`> Wikipedia finds an amazing way to make everything as complicated as possible.
00:48:52 <pikhq> oerjan: It *has* them, but they use it for hardly anything.
00:49:04 <pikhq> And people don't realise that they're using monad comprehensions.
00:49:04 <GrayGnome`> They were unable to use trigonometry to explain the sidebands in AM waves. They had to use Fourier and Hilbert to explain it.
00:49:38 <GrayGnome`> Though I realize this isn't on topic for an esoteric langs channel :D
00:49:48 <coppro> GrayGnome`: incorrect, it's on topic
00:49:52 <coppro> discussion of programming is off topic
00:49:55 <coppro> GrayGnome`: no, I mean that Wikipedia is simply factually incorrect
00:50:46 <coppro> it appears to claim that monads are key to creating a function with an optional return value
00:52:07 <coppro> my understanding is that's how Haskell uses them; not the general case
00:52:11 <coppro> though I could be wrong
00:52:12 <pikhq> What side effects? Haskell has none.
00:52:32 <ehird> GrayGnome`: you like C# and you think monads are about side effects
00:52:38 <ehird> my list of people to stab has grown a lot today
00:52:49 <GrayGnome`> ehird: That was meant to be a comical introduction.
00:52:51 <pikhq> The IO a that main results in is simply a value that describes side effects.
00:53:04 <GrayGnome`> I've done some coding in Java, and none in C#.
00:53:11 <ehird> GrayGnome`: that's, uhh
00:53:12 <pikhq> And monads are about so much more than merely letting you do IO in a purely functional language.
00:53:13 <ehird> meant to be better?
00:53:31 <GrayGnome`> Monads aren't about side effects, I realize this.
00:53:37 <ehird> Java is worse than C#.
00:53:41 <ehird> Both are horrible.
00:54:47 <coppro> my question is: what is the difference between monads and functional composition?
00:54:57 <ehird> <GrayGnome`> […] Windows.
00:55:04 <ehird> you may not know this, but you are actually dead
00:55:05 <pikhq> coppro: The two are completely different.
00:55:15 <coppro> pikhq: good, explain it to me
00:55:17 <ehird> you are in fact a p-zombie
00:55:24 <pikhq> Now if you had asked about the difference between fmap and functional composition, I could say something.
00:55:24 <GrayGnome`> That's okay, you seem to very alive and aware of the real world :P
00:55:32 <pikhq> Like, say, fmap being a generalisation.
00:55:43 <ehird> coppro: a monad is a type of one argument with functions return::a -> m a and (>>=)::m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b.
00:55:47 <ehird> that obeys some laws.
00:55:56 <ehird> GrayGnome`: philosophical zombie
00:56:03 <pikhq> Where "m" is a monad.
00:56:06 <coppro> ehird: please explain said syntax; that's what I ran into, and it's all Haskell to me
00:56:22 <ehird> coppro: trying to understand monads without learning haskell is uhhh
00:56:24 <pikhq> coppro: (a -> b) is a function from a to b.
00:56:28 <ehird> write some CS papers first.
00:56:33 <ehird> or just learn haskell
00:56:35 <GrayGnome`> Well I've done a lot of hobby coding on SBCL.
00:56:43 <ehird> GrayGnome`: that's a bit better.
00:56:46 <coppro> ehird: monads are, supposedly, a general concept that doesn't need to be used in Haskell
00:56:59 <ehird> but there's no way you have the right frame of mind
00:57:00 <GrayGnome`> I've also done Forth, BF, a bit of Haskell, Python, ...
00:57:07 <pikhq> coppro: Yes, but it's best to learn Haskell. Since Haskell uses them extensively.
00:57:09 <ehird> GrayGnome`: okay, you're not a horrible abomination.
00:57:16 <GrayGnome`> I do a lot of low level coding so I do a lot C work, heh.
00:57:22 <ehird> where did you come from? :P
00:57:25 <coppro> ehird: why can't I have the right frame of mind?
00:57:33 <ehird> coppro: umm, because you don't
00:57:42 <ehird> nobody does unless they're absolute CS geniuses & prodigies
00:57:49 <ehird> (the kind of people who... made haskell)
00:58:07 <ehird> so basically the only path to being able to understand monads is learning haskell
00:58:38 <coppro> it seems to me like it's just passing input from one function to another, really
00:58:43 <pikhq> While you're at it, you'll be able to learn the beauty that is a *real* type system.
00:59:01 <ehird> coppro: no, it's not
00:59:03 <GrayGnome`> It may seem a bit brain dead, but that way you don't have undefined behavior.
00:59:06 <ehird> 'm a' does not contain an a
00:59:09 <ehird> GrayGnome`: plz stop spreading misinformation
00:59:12 <coppro> GrayGnome`: the lack of side effects is not part of this
00:59:24 <GrayGnome`> Oh sorry. I thought this wasn't about monads :P
00:59:39 <ehird> fuck no... marmots?
00:59:47 <pikhq> coppro: Enjoy your M10.
00:59:54 <ehird> here i was thinking you were announcing your abstention from beastiality
01:00:01 <pikhq> And may you soon know the joy that is full-card art lands.
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02:00:31 <ehird> you're an... oklofok.
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02:30:50 <ehird> does vt100 have italics
02:32:58 <ehird> GregorR: just inverting, bold and underline right?
02:33:25 <ehird> I'm writing a markdown2man, and mapping bold to bold (obviously), and italics to ... underline, I guess.
02:33:31 <ehird> Since you can type it _foo_.
02:33:33 <GregorR> IIRC, "bold" is actually "alternative font" or something like that, so technically "alternative font" could be anything :P
02:35:16 * ehird attempts to find a small bsd man pag
02:35:19 <ehird> there surprisingly aren't any...
02:35:33 <ehird> ; man touch | wc -l
02:39:40 <pikhq> " -l Lies. This is equivalent to while true;do;done, rather than being equivalent to ;."
02:43:03 <ehird> pikhq: you mean --lies=true.
02:43:12 <ehird> It's gnuser friendly.
02:43:25 <ehird> After all, the user can just guess it, right?
02:43:30 <ehird> It's not like they'll have to look it up.
02:43:39 <ehird> Therefore, we should make the invocation more verbose.
02:43:59 * ehird wonders whether to pilfer SmartyPants to automatically change "foo" into ``foo'' for th man page.
02:44:03 <ehird> (AKA faggot quotes)
02:44:50 <ehird> after all, you use .Dq in roff
02:47:50 <ehird> Hey, I found an error in a bsd man page.
02:47:56 <ehird> MM The month of the year, from 1 to 12.
02:47:56 <ehird> DD the day of the month, from 1 to 31.
02:47:56 <ehird> hh The hour of the day, from 0 to 23.
02:47:59 <ehird> Spot the odd one out.
02:50:52 * oerjan was looking for something substantial
02:51:35 <ehird> so, I need to put the date somewhere on these files
02:51:47 <ehird> (markdown files for converting to man format)
02:51:49 <ehird> should it be the first line, the last line, or something else?
02:52:36 <ehird> the date appears at the top of man source files and at the bottom of the output
02:52:45 <ehird> I'm thinking the last line, so that when converting it to HTML it looks okay.
03:08:36 <ehird> Now that's a new one.
03:11:30 <ehird> Which would you rather write, http://pastie.org/584723.txt?key=gzcugqrr9szzyfcdzxmsaa or http://pastie.org/584724.txt?key=uziricsdgljqvdnsf07qkw?
03:11:50 <ehird> (Note: If you answer "the former", I will have you institutionalised.)
03:13:09 <ehird> Eh? Eh pikhq? ...GregorR? oerjan?! SOMEONE APPRECIATE MY HARD WORK ;_;
03:13:59 <Pthing> i can't appreciate your hard anything, that is grossly immoral and illegal
03:14:13 <oerjan> the latter looks _distinctly_ non-esoteric. we will have _none_ of that.
03:14:25 <ehird> Pthing: it is a thing
03:14:34 <ehird> albeit not a pthing
03:15:36 <oerjan> and certainly not a pthong
03:15:56 <pikhq> ehird: I prefer the former, because the latter does not exist.
03:16:15 <ehird> pikhq: Nuh-uh; I have rendered it to actual, readable HTML.
03:16:24 <ehird> It's a trivial script to roundtrip that to roff format.
03:16:37 <pikhq> Sorry, there is no pastie #584724 or it has been removed. Why not create a new pastie?
03:16:57 <ehird> your client is stupid.
03:17:16 <pikhq> ? is a valid character in a URL.
03:17:47 <ehird> Yeah, but it's at the end of a damn sentence.
03:17:55 <ehird> And ? on its own at the end almost certainly does jack.
03:18:16 <pikhq> It makes the pastebin cry.
03:18:17 <ehird> And if you've already seen a ?, well, the odds are stacking up here.
03:19:45 <Leonidas> hmm, anyone knows how to implement a thread scheduler?
03:19:47 <ehird> Anyway, my "format" is clearly superior. :P
03:19:55 <ehird> Leonidas: On the hardware or theoretically?
03:20:29 <Leonidas> ehird: well, I've got a language with three commands: Color, Fade and Wait and I want to implement some kind of 'tasks' or 'threads'
03:20:38 <ehird> Leonidas: Use OS threads.
03:20:47 <ehird> We have more than one core nowadays.
03:20:52 <ehird> Leonidas: unless you want them to be timed precisely
03:21:06 <ehird> in which case, uhh, loop { each thread { step one } }
03:21:20 <ehird> unless you want to handle wait
03:21:22 <ehird> in which case like
03:21:45 <Leonidas> ehird: the problem is, that I'm compling down to a language which only supports sequential execution
03:21:57 <ehird> look at my snippet
03:22:04 <ehird> if you want Wait to wait for N steps
03:22:06 <ehird> while running other threads
03:22:37 <ehird> loop { each thread { if (.wait && .i>.max).wait = false; if (.wait) .i++; if (!.wait) step one /* sets .wait=True and .i=0 and .max=stepstowait if Wait */ } }
03:22:41 <Leonidas> ehird: http://ddc.har2009.info:8080/DDCAnimationServer/
03:23:07 <Leonidas> the point is: the 'language' does not support threads, so I have to emulate them
03:23:29 <ehird> it's just a trivial tick scheduler
03:23:40 <ehird> step one instruction in each thread in turn; if a thread wants to idle, just skip it
03:24:00 <pikhq> You can get more complex than that, of course, but that is at least a functional scheduler for threading.
03:24:05 <ehird> and then subtract them
03:24:09 <ehird> to find out how much you've waited already
03:24:17 <ehird> of course this can overstep, but you won't get anything better unless you have a hard real time OS
03:24:48 <Leonidas> ehird: I could divide the Wait calls into two smaller wait calls
03:25:01 <ehird> Leonidas: lemme amend my funct
03:25:31 * Leonidas somehow knew that this is exactly the right channel for this kind of question ^^
03:26:52 <ehird> loop { each thread { if (.wait) { .i += unixmstime() - .last /* add how many ms we've gone since the last update */; .last = .i } if (.wait && .i >= .max) { /* must be >=; we can take a long time on another thread and overstep */ .wait=False; } if (!.wait) { step one /* sets .wait=True and .i=0 and .max=mstowait and .last=current unix time in milliseconds if waiting */ } } }
03:27:03 <ehird> round-robin scheduler that handles msec waits
03:29:22 <ehird> pikhq: did the pastie work
03:29:33 <Leonidas> just reformatted it, will look into it, thanks!
03:30:00 <Leonidas> half past four, exactly the right time to hack on stuff ^^
03:30:21 <ehird> i'd stay up later if I could get to sleep afterwards
03:30:30 <ehird> although i generally sleep after 6 anyway
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04:49:04 <Octalnet> Does anyone know why some BF sources include the @ symbol?
04:49:17 <pikhq> Common debugging symbol.
04:49:35 <pikhq> Makes supporting Brainfuck interpreters dumb a section of the tape.
04:50:23 <pikhq> Yeah, but nobody else.
04:53:37 <Octalnet> pikhq: ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>++++>+++>+<<<<<-]>>>>>.<<<<++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++++.>++.<<+.-------.++.---.+++++++++.>++.>>..
04:54:02 <oerjan> !bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>++++>+++>+<<<<<-]>>>>>.<<<<++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++++.>++.<<+.-------.++.---.+++++++++.>++.>>..
04:54:43 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>++++>+++>+<<<<<-]>>>>>.<<<<++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++++.>++.<<+.-------.++.---.+++++++++.>++.>>..
04:54:51 <pikhq> Octalnet: Eh. Brainfuck's not hard. ;)
04:55:57 <oklofok> especially balanced loop brainfuck
04:56:12 <Octalnet> I've never heard of unbalanced loops BF.
04:56:51 <Octalnet> Anyone know of a good extension of BF? Not a crappy script kiddy project.
04:57:12 <pikhq> Octalnet: An unbalanced loop in Brainfuck is where the memory address changes over the loop execution.
04:57:21 <pikhq> [>] is the trivial example.
04:57:53 <pikhq> FYB? *FYB*? I see your FYB and raise you a PEBBLE (which I totally don't have a host for, and I haven't touched in ages!)
04:58:15 <Octalnet> No, really. What's the best BF extension?
04:58:26 <Octalnet> Something with a few more useful operators?
04:58:42 <GregorR> Octalnet: Why would you add operations? It's already T.C.
04:58:48 <pikhq> If I end up touching PEBBLE, I'll be making the vaporware that is PEBBLE 2 into reality. By making a proper compiler, rather than some stupid Tcl metaprogramming stuff.
04:58:58 <pikhq> Octalnet: What you want is a macro language.
04:59:07 <oklofok> Octalnet: I've never heard of unbalanced loops BF. <<< it just means at least one [] contains a different amount of >'s than <'s
04:59:30 <Octalnet> I thought by unbalanced loop, you meant a [ with no ].
04:59:36 <oklofok> also that was said already, sorry.
04:59:37 <Octalnet> I thought something was a little odd there.
04:59:40 <pikhq> GregorR: Yes, I know you do CPP macros for Brainfuck. You're not everyone.
04:59:58 <GregorR> pikhq: EXCUSE ME I TOTALLY AM EVERYONE.
05:00:29 <pikhq> Now, where was that...
05:00:32 <Octalnet> I completely believe it's TC, but how do you implement conditional branches?
05:00:40 <oerjan> GregorR is a panegoist
05:00:54 <GregorR> oerjan: That's a panegoMANIAC to you.
05:01:02 <oklofok> Octalnet: if you don't know, you're lucky: you get the solve the puzzle yourself.
05:01:13 <GregorR> I think I agree with oklofok actually.
05:01:23 <pikhq> Octalnet: What, like if? I will give you a hint: it can be done in about 20 characters.
05:02:20 <pikhq> GregorR: BTW, MBF is awful. :P
05:02:27 <pikhq> Clever, but awful.
05:03:02 <Octalnet> But in my idea of a BF conditional, you can compute == and != only.
05:03:03 <GregorR> BTW, if you need a host for PEBBLE, codu.org/projects is always available.
05:03:24 <oklofok> Octalnet: just have a conditional on 0 or not zero
05:03:33 <pikhq> GregorR: I'll let you know if I bother doing any work on it again.
05:03:56 <oklofok> you should separate whatever logic (comparisons etc) from that
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05:07:36 <Octalnet> Was someone about to say something to me?
05:08:01 <oklofok> Octalnet: do you always apologize for joining a channel
05:08:31 <oerjan> oklofok: it's horribly rude, everyone knows we want to be left alone
05:08:33 <oklofok> Octalnet: did you see my "... separate ..." message?
05:09:16 <Octalnet> oklofok: I'm a tad over-apologetic. I apologize.
05:09:17 <oklofok> this must be the day of separation
05:09:30 <oklofok> left alone, ... separate ..., and i'm reading about separation axioms
05:09:37 <GregorR> `addquote <Octalnet> oklofok: I'm a tad over-apologetic. I apologize.
05:09:42 <oklofok> Octalnet: don't worry, i do it all the time, irl
05:09:45 <HackEgo> 69|<Octalnet> oklofok: I'm a tad over-apologetic. I apologize.
05:10:07 <Octalnet> oklofok: Oh, I'm sorry for that.
05:10:50 <Octalnet> Alright. I was asking about conditional branching. How would you go about this?
05:10:58 <oklofok> so umm i don't know if you saw my messages, so i'll repaste them
05:11:00 <oklofok> oklofok: Octalnet: just have a conditional on 0 or not zero
05:11:01 <oklofok> oklofok: you should separate whatever logic (comparisons etc) from that
05:11:28 <Octalnet> I wasn't even thinking about that.
05:11:40 <oklofok> then what exactly were you thinking about
05:11:41 <Octalnet> The pair of [ ] are conditionals by nature.
05:12:25 <Octalnet> They test whether or not a cell is 0.
05:12:35 <oklofok> well yes, obviously they are how you implement conditionals
05:12:41 <Octalnet> So, they're like boolean conditionals.
05:13:03 <Octalnet> Let me go try to work some programs out.
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05:15:47 <Octalnet> Are there any other exceptionally worthwhile turing-complete esolangs out there?
05:16:34 <Octalnet> I love the challenges of turing tarpits.
05:17:14 <Octalnet> I tried learning Whirl, but the functions are arbitrary and hard to remember the order of on the function wheel.
05:17:40 <oklofok> do you want imperative languages
05:18:24 <Octalnet> I tried to learn whitespace, which I believe has to be one of the funniest original esolang I've seen.
05:18:45 <Octalnet> But it's not well-documented enough (from what I could tell) to learn it practicaly.
05:18:52 <oklofok> it is rather funny, yes. but the joys of syntax are finite
05:19:23 <Octalnet> I really enjoy the minimalistic turing tarpits.
05:19:35 <Octalnet> I still don't understand how P" works.
05:20:04 <pikhq> It's Brainfuck without the , or the .
05:21:43 <Octalnet> What good is it if you can't output at the very least?
05:22:50 <pikhq> It's only good for showing that a structured programming language can be Turing complete without goto.
05:23:07 <pikhq> (from what I gather, that was actually an issue when it was published)
05:24:39 <oklofok> Octalnet: mathematicians don't care about actual output, just read the state of the machine after halt
05:24:54 <oklofok> and P'' is a mathematical construct more than it's an esolang
05:25:10 <pikhq> It's theoretical discussion, not programming discussion.
05:25:19 <pikhq> That the two have a large overlap is mere coincidence.
05:25:39 <pikhq> (effing math, with its "All else is just a subfield" :P)
05:26:01 <Octalnet> So, does anyone know of a worthwhile esolang?
05:26:34 <pikhq> Stack-based object-oriented programming language.
05:27:11 <pikhq> GregorR: Esoteric language.
05:27:30 <Octalnet> You know what I really hate and unfortunately Whitespace was forced to use?
05:28:11 <Octalnet> Dual-character commands with arbitrary effects unrelated to the standalone commands.
05:28:33 <Octalnet> This one language I just found...
05:29:33 <Octalnet> & (multiplication), @ (output), and &@ is a clear-screen command.
05:29:55 <Octalnet> It leads to senseless memorization of combinations.
05:32:03 <oklofok> yeah, totally unlike learning say /$ for clear-screen :)
05:38:07 <oklofok> granted, it is somewhat different
05:42:34 <Octalnet> I just realized that you're either Glass' creator, or a scandalous imposter.
05:43:27 <pikhq> Gregor is often a scandalous imposter. It's all the hats, I tell you.
05:46:28 <Octalnet> Wow, Glass seems kind of complex.
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06:02:47 <Octalnet> >++++[<++++++++>-]>++++++++[>++++<-]>>++>>>+>>>+<<<<<<<<<<[-[->+<]>[-<+>>>.<<]>>>[[->++++++++[>++++<-]>.<<[->+<]+>[->++++++++++<<+>]>.[-]>]]+<<<[-[->+<]+>[-<+>>>-[->+<]++>[-<->]<<<]<<<<]++++++++++.+++.[-]<]+++++
06:03:44 <Octalnet> It's not mine, just to let you guys know.
06:03:53 <Octalnet> I found it and dubbed it amazing.
06:04:54 <Octalnet> The source code is even in the shape of a Serpinski triangle.
06:05:00 <Octalnet> http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/triangle.bf
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06:09:46 <Octalnet> Wow. This has to be the largest and most complex BF program I've seen.
06:09:48 <Octalnet> http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/bf-source/prog/css-brainfuck.bf
06:11:16 <coppro> that program is illegal in some countries
06:11:40 <Octalnet> It decodes the 'illegal number', right?
06:14:09 <coppro> no, that decrypts them
06:15:41 <Octalnet> Cool, I just found an SMC version of BF.
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06:24:39 <Octalnet> What's the best BF derivatives?
06:24:52 <Octalnet> *Which are the best BF derivatives?
06:24:54 <GregorR> !bf >++++[<++++++++>-]>++++++++[>++++<-]>>++>>>+>>>+<<<<<<<<<<[-[->+<]>[-<+>>>.<<]>>>[[->++++++++[>++++<-]>.<<[->+<]+>[->++++++++++<<+>]>.[-]>]]+<<<[-[->+<]+>[-<+>>>-[->+<]++>[-<->]<<<]<<<<]++++++++++.+++.[-]<]+++++
06:26:03 <GregorR> !bf ++++++++++++++[>+++++>++>++++++++>++++++++<<<<-]>+++.>++++.>++.+++.-------.<.<-------.++++.>.>-----------.>-.<+.+.<+.-----------------------.
06:26:38 <Octalnet> !bf ++++++++++++++[>+++++>++>++++++++>++++++++<<<<-]>+++.>++++.>++.+++.-------.<.<-------.++++.>.>-----------.>-.<+.+.<+.-----------------------.
06:26:47 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
06:27:06 <oklofok> !bf_txtgen okokokokokokokoko
06:27:08 <EgoBot> 95 +++++++++++[>++++++++++>++++++++++>++++++++++>+<<<<-]>+.>---.>+.<.>.<.>.<.>.<.<.>.>.<.>.<.>.>-. [573]
06:27:28 <oklofok> !bf +++++++++++[>++++++++++>++++++++++>++++++++++>+<<<<-]>+.>---.>+.<.>.<.>.<.>.<.<.>.>.<.>.<.>.>-.
06:29:20 <EgoBot> 113 ++++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>+.>>----.<+.++++++++++++.>.<<----.>------.++++++++.<---.>.+++++.>+.>--. [884]
06:29:23 <GregorR> No, bf_txtgen uses a genetic algorithm.
06:29:35 <GregorR> oklofok's was only fast because it was trivially simple.
06:29:45 <oklofok> !bf +++++++++++[>++++++++++>++++++++++<<-]>+.>---.>[.<.>]
06:30:04 <oklofok> !bf +++++++++++[>++++++++++>++++++++++<<-]>+.>---.<[.<.>]
06:30:07 <GregorR> The failure was in you writing !bf_tExtgen >_>
06:30:09 <Octalnet> Mine didn't work because I had "textgen" in lieu of "txtgen"
06:30:39 <Octalnet> !bf ++++++++++++[>++++++>++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>+.>>----.<+.++++++++++++.>.<<----.>------.++++++++.<---.>.+++++.>+.>--.
06:30:50 <oklofok> what does EgoBot do with too long output
06:31:18 <GregorR> The main reason for using that method is to bother ehird.
06:31:42 <GregorR> Octalnet: Time limits, memory limits, limits limits limits.
06:31:50 <GregorR> If you want to kill a bot,
06:32:37 <GregorR> (Mind you, HackEgo actually has more severe restrictions, it just feels more hackable because you can write to the filesystem on HackEgo :P )
06:32:43 <Octalnet> I guess it doesn't handle input.
06:34:08 <Octalnet> What's the best BF ripoff out there?
06:34:50 <GregorR> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Category:Brainfuck_derivatives
06:36:12 <Octalnet> I'm looking at that list right now already.
06:36:33 <Octalnet> I wanted to know y'all's opinion before I thumb through 50 wiki pages.
06:37:23 <GregorR> Except that FYB is awesome! AND I'M TOTALLY NOT BIASED
06:39:58 <Octalnet> I can't find it in any of the Esolang repos.
06:40:18 <Octalnet> That was the code battle thing.
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07:11:29 <Octalnet> I just found a working BF program whose source is 2.1mb in size.
07:12:34 -!- Octalnet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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07:14:37 <Octalnet> Anyways, I just found a working BF program whose source is 2.1mb in size.
07:15:57 * coppro just had a terrible, terrible, terrible idea
07:16:05 <coppro> it transcends terribility
07:16:54 <coppro> hmm... /me now wants to make a BF variant that can be compiled to relatively speedy machine code
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07:17:18 <coppro> (without an optimizer)
07:18:53 <Octalnet> You know what I was thinking about? It's completely pointless, but I can recreate BF to have only 5 commands.
07:19:28 <coppro> +->< (some conditional?)
07:19:59 <Octalnet> You'd have a command to invert the 'command state', then use a single command for </>, +/-, [/], and ./,
07:20:17 <Octalnet> So basically, based on what state the 'command state' is in, that command will be executed.
07:20:29 <Octalnet> It's completely pointless, like I said.
07:21:24 <coppro> Octalnet: you could go one better and merge [] into |, also based off command state
07:23:38 <Octalnet> x could be the state changer, = could be +/=, _ could be ./, , and | could be [/]
07:25:37 <EgoBot> 70 +++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++++>+++++>+<<<<-]>.>++.+++++++..+++.>+.>+. [202]
07:27:50 <Octalnet> =========|>========>===========>=====>=x>>>>=|x>_>==_=======__===_==_>=_
07:29:07 <Octalnet> But it's completely pointless.
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09:34:54 <AnMaster> anyone know a good calendar app for linux? Being able to sync with phone over bluetooth is a must
09:37:23 <fizzie> You *are* obsessed with time and date, it seems. :p
09:38:33 <fizzie> Evolution would probably be a bit overkill.
09:38:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah and the sync setting in evolution only seems to want to sync to palm pilots
09:39:16 <AnMaster> or at least I couldn't find a way to sync over the standard syncml thingy that my phone supports
09:42:22 <fizzie> On another channel I think someone used OpenSync to speak to their phone; that thing has so many plugins one would assume that any calendar software can be used with it.
09:42:34 <fizzie> I don't think it's a very polished piece of software, though.
09:43:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, well I tried opensync, it is able to dump contacts and calendar from the phone, but it wasn't able to sync contacts with thunderbird at least
09:44:12 <fizzie> It does have a mozilla-sync plugin, which claims to do Thunderbird contacts and Lightning/Sunbird calendar events. No first-hand experiences here, though.
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09:46:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, someone mentioned "sunbird" on another channel, any experience with it?
09:47:16 <fizzie> Well, I tried it back when it was very pre-alpha, and (gasp!) it was quite buggy.
09:47:49 <fizzie> Also tried Lightning, which I guess is pretty much the Sunbird code except mangled into a Thunderbird extension.
09:48:22 <AnMaster> no need to have it in thunderbird
09:48:23 <fizzie> But this was some years (not many, but more than one) ago, it's likely they have fixed at least some of the bugs.
09:51:19 <fizzie> The Sunbird resembled the OS X "iCal" a bit; nothing too fancy, but it did the basics. I have no clue about the syncability; back then it did the standard ical-over-webdav thing, didn't look for phone-syncing.
09:52:07 <fizzie> OS X managed to sync events with the really crappy calendar in the N-Gage, though. I don't even know what sort of protocol the phone uses.
09:53:17 <fizzie> Oh right, now I remember; it actually worked by sending some sort of Symbian app to the phone.
09:54:01 <fizzie> Though it seems that there's also a Nokia-provided SyncML app for it too. Sort of a moot point, I don't have bluetooth in anything else than the iBook.
09:55:13 <fizzie> There still seems to be an "iSync Config" app in the phone, haven't used it in ages.
09:56:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, it seems opensync supports sunbird
09:56:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, likely syncml in that phone
09:57:14 <fizzie> What I got from the interweb is that there's no built-in SyncML in the phone, but on the driver CD that comes with it there's a syncml-speaking separate app for it.
09:57:45 <fizzie> The iSync program might use something completely proprietary, though.
10:07:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, about synergy, I find a delay setting of 200 works quite well
10:08:05 <AnMaster> it is enough to be able to drag borders of maximised apps, yet not enough to be annoyingly slow
10:09:42 <fizzie> What did you do with the two-mice thing?
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10:23:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, was two keyboard as well originally, gave up on that too
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12:29:55 <AnMaster> btw, I found a Betamax cassette in a box in the attic, what on earth should I do with it...
12:32:44 <M0ny> i didn't know this kind of cassette existed...
12:41:45 <AnMaster> M0ny, well, they are completely obsolete
12:41:55 <AnMaster> I don't have any way to play it
12:42:07 <M0ny> i know, i'm reading the wikipedia page
12:42:20 <AnMaster> M0ny, also it is unmarked, could be blank, could be something on it
12:43:03 <M0ny> there isn't any old stuff shop in your city ?
12:43:59 <M0ny> or maybe a brocante
12:44:07 <AnMaster> M0ny, you mean like for 1800 century tables and so on?
12:44:19 <AnMaster> doubt that shop would be interested in this
12:44:51 <M0ny> i found some NES games in a brocante some weeks ago
12:45:13 <AnMaster> No definitions of brocante were found in English
12:45:27 <M0ny> i don't know the word in english, google said that is the same word
12:45:34 <AnMaster> "Definitions of brocante on the Web in French:"
12:45:55 <AnMaster> M0ny, google saying same word can also mean "google has no clue"
12:46:04 <AnMaster> in fact, most of the time it is like that
12:46:43 <M0ny> brocante = secondhand market
12:47:35 <Sneezle> try google "brocante translation" is case of foreign words...
12:50:53 <AnMaster> there are some extremely funny words in English (to a Swede that is)
12:51:10 <AnMaster> that is originally a Swedish word, but with dots dropped
12:51:19 <AnMaster> making it 1) sound completely different 2) look silly
12:51:35 <AnMaster> if you don't know this word, look it up
12:51:49 <AnMaster> when you done that I will provide a literal translation of the Swedish original
12:52:00 <AnMaster> (which would work quite well in English)
12:53:55 <M0ny> what are you waiting for ?
12:53:56 <AnMaster> looked it up/know the meaning?
12:54:17 <AnMaster> translating it literally first would spoil the effect
12:54:19 <Sneezle> Smorgasbord is a meal with a variety of hot and cold savoury dishes
12:55:00 <AnMaster> I can't see why English couldn't use that instead. Which is what it means
12:55:36 <M0ny> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sm%C3%B6rg%C3%A5sbord :D
12:56:00 <AnMaster> M0ny, yep. usually English spelling is without the dots though
12:56:23 <Sneezle> It is a buffet style table in a restaurant, or at home served at a holiday, prepared with many small dishes
12:56:26 <AnMaster> and for Swedish, åäö are NOT variants of aao, but rather separate letters
12:56:46 <AnMaster> have very different sound compared to and o as well
12:56:47 <Sneezle> it seems, the word is used in spanish as well
12:57:59 <Sneezle> modern usage: This valley is just one long smorgasbord :)
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12:58:54 <M0ny> "smorgasbord" maybe a cool esolang name too :)
12:59:29 <AnMaster> Sneezle, I don't understand what it would mean in that context
13:00:23 <Sneezle> it's from http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/sm/smorgasbord.html -- i don't get the meaning as well, but "this valley is just...(whatever)" sounds like "this is boring"
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14:38:35 <oerjan> `addquote <pikhq> Gregor is often a scandalous imposter. It's all the hats, I tell you.
14:38:36 <HackEgo> 70|<pikhq> Gregor is often a scandalous imposter. It's all the hats, I tell you.
14:45:43 <oerjan> <Octalnet> You'd have a command to invert the 'command state', then use a single command for </>, +/-, [/], and ./,
14:46:21 <oerjan> i'm not convinced that would work for [/]
14:47:20 <oerjan> there will no longer be any way to nest loops
14:47:56 <oerjan> hm, well, unless invertion is static
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15:45:05 <fizzie> There's black toilet paper in this hotel -- now *that's* fancy.
15:45:39 <oerjan> Not that there's anything wrong with that.
15:48:02 <fizzie> I'd provide some photographical evidence, but my phone hasn't heard of this thing called "upload".
15:49:44 <GregorR> It's actually just covered in charcoal, and leaves your rear the same way.
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15:50:22 <fizzie> Now you scared him off.
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16:47:18 <AnMaster> do you have any bluetooth on it?
16:47:30 <AnMaster> and what about a computer with bluetooth?
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16:52:08 <ehird> tuomov continues to push the boundaries of hilarious idiocy
16:52:14 <ehird> http://modeemi.fi/~tuomov/ → "?"
16:52:18 <ehird> <div class="use_a_textmode_browser">
16:52:27 <ehird> .use_a_textmode_browser {
16:52:27 <ehird> visibility: hidden;
16:52:28 <ehird> .use_a_textmode_browser:before {
16:52:28 <ehird> visibility: visible;
16:52:34 <ehird> (despite having styles before it)
16:55:27 <ehird> the ultimate irony is
16:55:35 <pikhq> What kind of an idiot forces you to use a text-mode browser, anyways?
16:55:41 <ehird> he has a blog post ranting about the freetype fascists forcing "blurry" (anti-aliased) fonts on everyone
16:55:42 <pikhq> Oh, right. Tuomov.
16:55:47 <ehird> and wants THE CHOICE
16:55:53 <ehird> ...............................................
16:56:00 <pikhq> ... Isn't Freetype configurable?
16:56:02 <ehird> then forces you to use a text mode browser.
16:56:05 <ehird> NOT EVEN TEXT MODE
16:56:10 <ehird> just non-CSS supporting
16:56:14 <ehird> netscape 1? Youbetcha.
16:56:35 <ehird> pikhq: yes, it is; he doesn't like the hinting or something
16:56:40 <ehird> no, he just refuses to edit the xml config
16:57:04 <pikhq> "I want the choice, but I can't be arsed to actually edit the config file"?
16:57:16 <ehird> It has angle brackets. It is unacceptable.
16:57:29 <ehird> http://modeemi.fi/~tuomov/b//archives/2006/03/17/T20_15_31/
16:57:29 <ehird> http://modeemi.fi/~tuomov/b/archives/2008/03/20/T13_47_17/
16:57:35 <ehird> ↑ bask in the stupidity
16:57:38 <pikhq> I could understand being upset about it being an XML config, but... Come on.
16:57:48 <ehird> Note: Replace "fascist" with "person I dislike".
16:57:52 <pikhq> That doesn't mean that Freetype is forcing you to use anti-aliasing.
16:58:14 <ehird> oklopol: lets you add content and style it before an element
16:58:21 <ehird> although no HTML or anything
16:58:24 <ehird> so it's mostly useless
16:58:25 <ehird> but you can do things lik
16:58:30 <ehird> if you want to turn a <ul> menu into
16:58:32 <ehird> item / item / item
16:58:41 <ehird> .item:after { content: ' / ' }
16:58:45 <ehird> .item:last:after { content: '' }
16:59:40 <ehird> oklopol: basically he hides the element then puts ? before it
16:59:43 <pikhq> I find it amusing that he complains about using serif fonts, yet his CSS defaults to a serif font.
16:59:45 <ehird> == replacing the element with ?
16:59:57 <oklopol> ehird: i realize what, but how would you get to see the content?
17:00:06 <oklopol> i don't know what textmode is
17:00:15 <ehird> oklopol: terminal, console; but
17:00:20 <ehird> it just needs to be a browser that doesn't do CSS
17:00:24 <ehird> or has it disabled
17:00:27 <ehird> he incorrectly equates these
17:00:33 <ehird> elinks is terminal-based and does CSS
17:00:36 <ehird> netscape 1 is graphical and doesn't
17:00:42 <oklopol> use_a_textmode_browser is a hint for the browser...er
17:01:03 <ehird> but he doesn't care, I imagine.
17:01:06 <oklopol> i'm a bit slow at this stuff
17:01:06 <ehird> just wants you to fuck off.
17:01:15 <ehird> pikhq: I also like how in one of his posts he praises the beautiful beautiful Helvetica for screen... without antialiasing.
17:01:20 <ehird> IT WAS DESIGNED AS A SMOOTH PRINT FONT.
17:02:26 <oklopol> but umm so basically he's saying people should read webpages in source form? or does he actually *mean* "without css"?
17:02:40 <ehird> oklopol: terminal browsers such as w3m
17:02:52 <pikhq> oklopol: He means "text mode", and assumes that all text mode browsers don't have CSS.
17:02:56 <ehird> they won't parse the CSS STYLESHEET
17:03:02 <ehird> and thus won't apply the no-display
17:03:04 <ehird> thus being able to see it
17:03:11 <ehird> however, graphical browsers can disable CSS
17:03:14 <ehird> and older graphical ones don't do it
17:03:18 <ehird> and some terminal ones like elinks DO do css
17:03:22 <oklopol> i don't know what textmode is, i'm asking whether it's just "ignore css", or whether it's "just show the source as it is"
17:03:31 <ehird> TEXT MODE = TERMINAL/CONSOLE YOU RETARD
17:03:33 <ehird> i already told you that
17:03:34 <pikhq> oklopol: Text mode = TERMINAL APPLICATION
17:04:05 <ehird> wtf man pages use .Nm to refer to their name instead of just including it
17:04:12 <oklopol> i don't see how that has to do with whether css applies, and i don't see how that has to do with whether the source is parsed either
17:04:21 <ehird> oklopol: It doesn't.
17:04:26 <ehird> Most terminal browsers
17:04:33 <ehird> Most graphical browsers
17:04:39 <ehird> He is incorrectly equating them.
17:05:37 <oklopol> i get that, i was just asking whether terminal browsers usually parse the source, or do they just show it, because i have absolutely no idea whether anyone uses them.
17:05:49 <oklopol> but i guess they do parse it, and show it in some slightly more sensible form
17:05:52 <ehird> if they just show the source
17:05:54 <ehird> they're not a browser
17:06:13 <pikhq> They are like normal web browsers, except they use curses instead of a GUI library.
17:06:19 <oklopol> well they could parse the essential stuff like hyperlinks
17:06:26 <ehird> <oklopol> WHAT'S CURSES
17:06:48 <oklopol> i have a clue what curses is
17:06:51 <pikhq> oklopol: Okay, what exactly makes most sense for a web browser to do?
17:07:21 <pikhq> Then what makes most sense for a *terminal* web browser to do?
17:07:38 <oklopol> i don't see why that makes the question stupid
17:07:58 <pikhq> "Just showing it" is curl(1) or wget(1).
17:08:06 <pikhq> ... Which makes it an HTTP client, not a web browser.
17:08:09 <oklopol> sure, but you could parse it a little.
17:08:20 <pikhq> So, your question was "Is the web browser a web browser or an HTTP client"?
17:08:45 <oklopol> well it could've parsed hyperlinks, and ignored some of the font etc tags
17:09:02 <pikhq> What the hell sort of use would that be?
17:09:13 <oklopol> eh, i'd probably prefer it
17:09:44 <pikhq> You'd prefer that over a normal web browser that *happens* to be using curses?
17:10:48 <oklopol> you seem to have misunderstood me, i'd probably prefer it over a normal web browser
17:11:39 <pikhq> ... You are a masochist.
17:11:42 <oklopol> losing all style information because of ehird was the best thing that ever happened to my browsing experience
17:11:56 <ehird> nuh uh, no style information was lost
17:11:58 <ehird> just twiddled a bit
17:12:01 <ehird> it still has layout
17:12:14 <oklopol> layout i might miss somewhat
17:12:28 <pikhq> Conkeror was the best thing to happen to my browsing experience.
17:12:31 <ehird> curses is evil anyway
17:13:12 * ehird kills pikhq with good mouse interfaces
17:13:33 <pikhq> I prefer good keyboard interfaces over bad mouse interfaces, mmkay?
17:14:11 <oklopol> anyway you people really shouldn't treat me as a nerd, much better to just assume i know nothing that doesn't have mathematical significance
17:14:38 <ehird> pikhq: So don't use bad mouse interfaces.
17:14:39 <oklopol> i mean i do know some stuff, but that's the better approximation out of 0%/100%
17:14:40 * pikhq shoves some UNIX manuals down oklopol's throat
17:14:46 <ehird> btw, conkeror is not a good keyboard interface.
17:15:11 <oklopol> unix is a theoretically insignificant piece of shit
17:15:14 <pikhq> ehird: It's not a discoverable keyboard interface, you mean.
17:15:27 <ehird> well you are right really
17:15:36 <ehird> plan 9 takes some unix stuff and makes it all fluffy and theoretical
17:15:42 <ehird> it's quite elegant
17:16:39 <pikhq> oklopol: UNIX is good to know because it describes how everything works right now. Not because it's high-minded, elegant theory, but because it's pretty much the LCD of commonly used OSes.
17:16:45 <oklopol> i've heard of plan 9 about a trillion times, never even bothered to google it, some kinda cool new os, and something about a murderer... or was the murder about something else, or was it another crime..? :P
17:16:54 <ehird> pikhq: he doesn't care
17:16:59 <ehird> oklopol: it's not new
17:17:12 <ehird> oklopol: dev started in 80s, released 92
17:17:15 <ehird> open source nowadays
17:17:17 <ehird> oklopol: same people as unix
17:17:21 <ehird> official successor
17:17:29 <ehird> oklopol: basically, "everything is a file", and files aren't physical
17:17:39 <ehird> the filesystem is just a namespace of namespaces and entities
17:17:42 <oklopol> pikhq: but i'm not really a nerd, i do theoretical CS and mathematics, and i'm only interested in the theory.
17:17:51 <oklopol> not only interested in that, but mostly interested in that
17:18:05 <ehird> oklopol: all the windows have a bunch of files, for instance
17:18:06 <pikhq> By "same people", yes, he means the exact same people.
17:18:14 <ehird> you can connect to another server by mounting its remote filesystem
17:18:19 <ehird> and other more wacky stuff
17:18:23 <oklopol> i'm somewhat interested in what's happening in the nerd world, but not *that* much more than i'm interested in the pop music scene
17:18:26 <ehird> like a filesystem of fibonacci numbers or something
17:18:37 <ehird> oklopol: it's not really popular at all
17:18:47 <ehird> it's on the lunatic fringe of the semi-enlightened :P
17:18:53 <ehird> although it runs on an ibm supercomputer.
17:19:15 <ehird> oklopol: oh, and you can distribute computation across N machines trivially
17:19:15 <oklopol> well okay that sounds like what unix tried to be
17:19:21 <ehird> not really, unix tried to work
17:19:27 <ehird> but it turned out to be simpler to do a lot of things with files
17:19:33 <ehird> plan 9 just took that principle and turned it to 11
17:19:44 <oklopol> same philosophy, different goal, maybe?
17:19:58 <ehird> oklopol: but it's very pure
17:20:07 <ehird> not really any compromises to practicality, though it's that too
17:20:14 <pikhq> It's basically UNIX without the hacks.
17:20:20 <ehird> oklopol: the ui is cool too
17:20:27 <ehird> it blends text windows and graphical windows into one
17:20:29 <pikhq> And, of course, designed a couple decades later.
17:20:35 <ehird> you can write text anywhere and also put graphics anywhere
17:20:37 <oklopol> ehird: oklopol: oh, and you can distribute computation across N machines trivially <<< i'd love to hear more about this
17:20:45 <ehird> oklopol: it's pretty much what it says
17:20:53 <ehird> not much too it; I'm not sure about the specifics
17:20:55 <pikhq> oklopol: Mount the other computers.
17:21:02 <ehird> that's the filesystem
17:21:11 <ehird> i wish people would stop guessing without noting that it's a guess
17:21:32 <oklopol> ehird: something like "split process_id machine1 machine2 ... machineN"? :P
17:21:42 <ehird> it's more sophisticated than that
17:21:45 <ehird> and not so... hacky
17:21:52 <ehird> oklopol: anyway, the UI actually makes really good use of the mouse
17:21:59 <ehird> and is theoretically nice
17:22:02 <ehird> also, they invented UTF-8 for it
17:22:23 <oklopol> because you couldn't actually manipulate "parts of the computation", just actually do the split
17:22:31 <oklopol> and if you needed something else, you'd need a new prog
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17:23:05 <ehird> oklopol: you'd prolly be able to use plan 9 as your main os, it even has a sort of okay browser or two
17:23:14 <ehird> and there's a python port, dunno about ghc
17:23:30 <ehird> well it can run any posix-esque program
17:23:33 <ehird> but that doesn't fit in very well
17:24:25 <oklopol> i need irc and a text editor, and as many programming languages as possible, although i only need either python of haskell for daily use (yes, i've gotten myself to use it every now and then! :P)
17:24:57 <ehird> oklopol: there's an irc client for plan 9; filesytem-based
17:25:09 <pikhq> Think: UNIX turned to 11. Why *wouldn't* they have a text editor? ;)
17:25:11 <oklopol> also there's the fact i need stuff like gcd and factorials daily, and J is simply faster to use for that than writing the func every time, or importing it, 1 character versus ~10
17:25:12 <ehird> you can use acme (basically a graphical terminal with editor; it's great) as a UI for it
17:25:31 <oklopol> also of course i need a browser... or a http client
17:25:36 <ehird> oklopol: text editor you can use acme (the actual editing part is very bare-bones)
17:25:42 <ehird> oklopol: there are a few barebones browsers
17:25:52 <ehird> they won't be able to run javascripty stuff like gmail
17:25:58 <ehird> but they'll prolly display wikipedia okay
17:26:39 <oklopol> i would say i don't need javascript, but probably i'd even miss flash.
17:26:56 <ehird> oklopol: why, for youtube?
17:27:00 <ehird> WHO WANTS YOUTUBE!
17:27:08 <ehird> ... but you could probably make a lil script to download youtubers.
17:27:35 <ehird> if you use an acme-based web browser you could just name it youtube and add 'Youtube' to the toolbar
17:27:40 <ehird> then middle click on a youtube page
17:27:43 <ehird> wouldn't solve flash gameys though
17:27:49 <oklopol> also flash games :\ i mean i'm not that interested in them, i but i do play them, i don't wanna be an anmaster.
17:28:00 <oklopol> "i can't because i use a lesser OS and can't do flash"
17:28:02 <ehird> oklopol: you could use the standalone player via the posix emulation layer
17:28:11 <ehird> oklopol: then make a cmd that downloads the relevant flash and opens it
17:28:56 <ehird> http://mirtchovski.com/p9/xkcd.png
17:29:05 <oklopol> ehird: i'm pretty sure i could just have a windows machine for the occasional needs
17:29:19 <ehird> oklopol: oh if you have another then you could just vnc in
17:29:25 <ehird> have the other machine as a lil plan 9 window
17:30:35 <oklopol> anyway what i might actually want to try is have like this tiny os, just http, irc, text edit, really fast boot, and persistency
17:30:46 <ehird> oklopol: plan 9 boots in like seconds
17:30:58 <ehird> persistency is basically there because everything uses files
17:31:06 <ehird> so it's more transparent than your typical windows/unix saving affair
17:31:18 <oklopol> well i mean like, shutting down doesn't actually do anything
17:31:24 <oklopol> you'll start where you left off
17:31:33 <oklopol> i guess that's what you mean as well, with persistency
17:31:36 <ehird> alas plan 9 isn't totally that, but
17:31:41 <ehird> by convention it's quite similar
17:31:52 <ehird> first, files are really ingrained
17:31:59 <ehird> so it's not like you have much stuff bobbing about memory
17:32:25 <ehird> oklopol: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Acme.png ;; you'll probably like the font
17:32:28 <oklopol> yeah, but i'd love to have an os that doesn't make a distinction, because even the slightest deviance from it makes it a necessary thing for me to consider... but yeah i could live with that
17:32:41 <ehird> well yeah ehirdOS isn't gonna have that distinction
17:34:18 <ehird> oklopol: plan 9's filesystem is nicely unhierarchical
17:34:26 <ehird> for instance, /bin isn't just stuff actually in the system bin
17:34:38 <ehird> it is /386/bin (on an x86 machine)
17:34:41 <ehird> and /usr/you/386/bin
17:34:48 <oklopol> just links, and garbage collection?
17:34:49 <ehird> bunch of unions and bindings and everything
17:34:53 <ehird> oklopol: well no not gc :D
17:35:04 <ehird> but not much of an emphasis on directories physically being where files are
17:35:08 <oklopol> then there must be some kinda hierarchy... i mean assuming the basic idea is the same
17:35:27 <ehird> at the end of a day
17:35:30 <ehird> a file's probably somewhere
17:35:34 <ehird> but since you can bind it to any namespace
17:36:19 <oklopol> without gc, i'm pretty sure i need to know what the hierarchy is... but i guess i might be wrong on this one, should see it before judging it.
17:36:37 <oklopol> i mean at least for deleting
17:36:50 <ehird> yeah no that isn't a problem at all
17:37:23 <ehird> oklopol: oh and as seen in http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Acme.png taking a screenshot of the window is simply converting /dev/window to a png
17:37:28 <ehird> /dev/screen for... the screen
17:37:42 <ehird> obvious stuff, but cool
17:37:58 <ehird> (/dev/window being another name for like the actual path to the current window)
17:39:40 <oklopol> anyway i think i should do some stuff now
17:39:42 <ehird> png isn't exactly suited to blitting to a display :P
17:40:02 <oklopol> have to increase my knowledge about the theorical aspects of computing
17:43:38 <oklopol> my leaving is a slow, gradual process
17:43:54 <oklopol> especially when i leave to another window, leaving this one open
17:50:55 <AnMaster> quick, lets discuss something oklopol is interested in
17:51:39 <AnMaster> ehird, synergy is cool and such, but often I forget to move the mouse between the monitors
17:51:52 <AnMaster> so clearly eye tracking would be cool for selecting which screen should have the focus
17:52:03 <ehird> Uhh, you can't type in windows that you haven't clicked.
17:52:13 <ehird> Why should it be different for ones on another computer?
17:52:18 <AnMaster> ehird, well indeed, but it is active, just on the wrong computer
17:52:24 <AnMaster> and I forget that computer isn't the active one
17:52:30 <ehird> AnMaster: write a script
17:53:01 <ehird> AnMaster: report to the other computer when a window is focused, and listen to the other; when it is informed of this, it defocuses every window
17:53:08 <ehird> (or just focuses the desktop, same thing really)
17:53:52 <AnMaster> ehird, I wouldn't notice the colour of the window border being "defocus" most of the time...
17:53:54 <oklopol> ehird: "back why" was indeed kind of a weird guess, as it isn't english :D
17:53:59 <AnMaster> since synergy already does that it seems
17:54:06 <AnMaster> but a full screen terminal window
17:54:22 <ehird> AnMaster: you would, though
17:54:22 <AnMaster> ehird, also it doesn't defocus properly for virtualbox in seamless mode
17:54:26 <oklopol> and i was actually going to say fu, then find another meaning for it, but i guess i forgot the latter part
17:54:27 <ehird> e.g. Konsole, when defocuses
17:54:32 <ehird> changes the cursor to []
17:54:55 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes true. but what if I'm using some ncurses app hiding the cursor
17:55:08 <ehird> anyway, if you don't notice that a window's not focused, you could make the same mistake on one screen
17:55:15 <ehird> synergy adds nothing
17:55:19 <ehird> AnMaster: title bar
17:55:32 <ehird> AnMaster: oh, question: how better is the trackpoint than the touchpad?
17:55:43 <AnMaster> ehird, on one screen I usually don't, because a window doesn't defocus automatically like that. I'm not used to that
17:55:50 <ehird> saw an ibm thinkpad yesterday as well as some dells with touchpads. was a bit slow on the thinkpad
17:55:53 <ehird> obviously a learning curve
17:56:27 <AnMaster> ehird, I used trackpoint a few times before, and touchpad a few times before too
17:56:44 <ehird> basically with a trackpoint i curved a lot more
17:56:50 <AnMaster> I would say trackpoint is quite a bit better than touchpad
17:56:52 <ehird> and it was kinda hard to stop moving so swiftly and do more precise stuff
17:57:00 <ehird> The TrackPoint III and the TrackPoint IV have a feature called Negative Inertia that causes the cursor's velocity to "overreact" when it is accelerated or decelerated. Negative Inertia is intended to avoid feeling of inertia or sluggishness when starting or stopping movement[2]. Usability tests at IBM have shown that it is easier for users to position the cursor with Negative Inertia, and performance is 7.8% better [3].
17:57:01 <AnMaster> ehird, you realise this depends a LOT on what you are used to
17:57:04 <ehird> they were like circa 2004
17:57:10 <ehird> AnMaster: I haven't used either more than about twice in my life.
17:57:36 <AnMaster> ehird, frankly, I prefer a good mouse on a table
17:57:37 <ehird> A number of ergonomic studies to compare trackpoint and touchpad performance have been done [8][9][10]. Most studies find that touchpad is slightly faster; one study found that "the touchpad was operated 15% faster than the trackpoint"[10]. Another study found that average object selection time was faster with a touchpad, 1.7 sec compared to 2.2 sec with a trackpoint, and object manipulation took 6.2 sec with a touchpad, on average, against 8.1 sec with track
17:57:45 <AnMaster> I'm fastest and most exact with that
17:57:54 <AnMaster> ehird, however, the trackpoint works well
17:57:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Frankly, I cannot carry around a table.
17:58:34 <AnMaster> ehird, use the trackpoint with the same finger in bejewled or so for half an hour and your fingertip feels pretty numb
17:58:47 <ehird> If I plug in an external monitor and mouse, I'll just become averse to taking it elsewhere, because I'll notice the difference.
17:58:53 <AnMaster> haven't been successful in using it well with other fingers than my index finger
17:59:26 <ehird> trackpoints are obviously better than mice or trackpads for FPSs, at least :P
17:59:31 <AnMaster> ehird, but then, bejewled (sp?) is a pretty mouse intensive game
17:59:43 <AnMaster> it works fine when you don't use the cursor all the time
17:59:47 <ehird> since you can spin without having to pick up the mouse and move it or whatever
18:00:10 <AnMaster> ehird, haven't tried image editing at all with either touchpad or trackpoint
18:00:29 <ehird> Thankfully, I am completely without image editing talent.
18:00:45 <AnMaster> ehird, well, what do you do with your photos
18:01:01 <AnMaster> if you say your mobile phone lacks camera then clearly you aren't ehird
18:01:06 <ehird> Examine their non-existence.
18:01:12 <ehird> Well, I've taken a few.
18:01:16 <ehird> Mostly I just ... use them directly.
18:01:21 <ehird> Maybe some downsizing.
18:01:28 <AnMaster> ehird, and some curve adjustment?
18:01:50 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, the trackpoint, I don't curve at all with it
18:02:00 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure if it is IV or whatever
18:02:01 <ehird> You know, the original iPhone's camera is pretty bad. I'm not sure there's any use in trying to make its photos better.
18:02:27 <ehird> My hands are way too shaky to take good photos anyway.
18:02:41 <AnMaster> ehird, an issue, which I haven't yet found the cause to, is spurious double click
18:02:48 <AnMaster> I suspect I somehow rest my hand on the touchpad
18:02:53 <AnMaster> while clicking for the trackpoint
18:03:05 <ehird> it was awkward to hit the buttons while using it
18:03:21 <ehird> well i say buttons, the trackpoint buttons are more like keys
18:03:27 <AnMaster> ehird, shaky hands? 13 years old?
18:03:29 <ehird> which is not very expected
18:03:36 <AnMaster> I mean, my grandma has shaky hands
18:03:45 <AnMaster> (she didn't like 10 years ago)
18:03:51 <ehird> AnMaster: it's not exactly common to have unsteady hands
18:04:16 <AnMaster> ehird, well that is what I said
18:04:31 <ehird> AnMaster: it's not like they shake all the time
18:04:34 <ehird> just if I try and rest them in midair
18:04:40 <AnMaster> ehird, you did like me then, removed half of the double negation ;P
18:04:41 <ehird> if my arms were less weak it probably wouldn't happen
18:05:20 <ehird> not uncommon != common
18:05:43 <AnMaster> ehird, what about trying to make them less weak. Like doing press ups
18:06:21 <ehird> too much work for no gain
18:06:48 <AnMaster> ehird, what about a tripod for your phone then
18:07:13 <oklopol> i keep in perfect shape simply by praying
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18:07:20 <ehird> AnMaster: You joke, but it has been done.
18:07:35 <ehird> The 3G S has a nice camera.
18:07:39 <AnMaster> ehird, there is a phone with tripod mounting?
18:07:49 <ehird> Someone made a tripod for their iphone.
18:08:15 <ehird> It's pretty cool; the photo quality is good.
18:08:57 <AnMaster> ehird, googling resulted in this: http://www.geekalerts.com/mobile-phone-tripod/
18:09:21 <ehird> Oh, those Nokia multimedia phones.
18:09:23 <AnMaster> and this http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=45373&doy=search
18:09:24 <ehird> They have good cameras.
18:09:29 <ehird> They're basically hybrid camera/mobiles.
18:09:48 <ehird> I'll try and find the one I was talking about.
18:10:13 <AnMaster> because, digital "zoom" is just "crop" basically
18:11:39 <ehird> Eh, I can't find the one I was talking about.
18:11:53 <ehird> It was full-size, though.
18:12:29 <AnMaster> ehird, but it doesn't look very stable?
18:12:44 <AnMaster> the phone isn't *firmly* attached
18:12:53 <ehird> The one I saw had it completely latched in.
18:14:52 <AnMaster> ehird, if it isn't very firmly attached, a long exposure without flash (say, 20 seconds exposure during night, in star light), could be hard
18:15:25 <AnMaster> generally you use a button at the end of a cable to take the photo in such cases
18:15:30 <ehird> It was so firmly attached that the screen had flickering lines before loosening it a bit.
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18:16:44 <AnMaster> cameras are generally screw mounted or mounted with some quick attach that snaps in place
18:16:52 <AnMaster> my camera and tripod uses the former variant
18:18:30 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:18:46 <AnMaster> huh, why does iwlagn causes lots of wake ups even when not connected to a network
18:19:22 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
18:20:15 <AnMaster> nah, seems it is scanning for available networks all the time
18:20:17 <ehird> the computer is getting cancer.
18:20:30 <ehird> the wifi is totally incidental.
18:23:25 <AnMaster> ehird, another thing that helps a bit for the WLAN is to disable hardware crypto, that is use the software crypto instead
18:24:15 <AnMaster> ehird, reduces the issue with failing to connect for WPA2 networks (but not WPA ones)
18:24:42 <ehird> I don't use WPA. :P
18:25:02 <AnMaster> ehird, in fact, it seems this bug is caused by a lot of different things, so probably different (but related) bugs causing similar symptoms
18:25:25 <ehird> How strange. I've only heard of unprotected university networks.
18:25:35 <AnMaster> ehird, yes it surprised me too
18:25:42 <ehird> Seems rather pointless.
18:26:16 <ehird> "XCB (replaces Xlib, protocol described in XML)"
18:26:16 <ehird> Seriously, reddit?
18:26:22 <ehird> XCB is bad because its protocol is described in XML?
18:27:03 <ehird> I wouldn't assume negativity, but it was posted by "lispnik".
18:27:26 <AnMaster> I never heard of it being in xml, but it wouldn't surprise me
18:27:32 <AnMaster> since freedesktop seems to love xml
18:27:58 <ehird> freedesktop.org is a great initiative; I wouldn't use XML but it's the least work.
18:28:27 <ehird> (I might just be biased because Havoc Pennington has a really awesome name.)
18:28:31 <AnMaster> ehird, well, yes it is a good idea. But sometimes implementations are less than ideal
18:29:24 <pikhq> The whole point of having it in XML is, of course, to automatically generate a lot of XCB's code.
18:29:57 <pikhq> And XCB is great: it tries to be a library for toolkit authors to use, rather than the massive pile of cruft that tries to be programmer-friendly and fails epicly.
18:30:04 <AnMaster> argh, there is some outdoors rap concert thingy a few blocks from here
18:30:16 * AnMaster looks for something to block his hearing temporarily
18:31:32 <ehird> ; fn printer { echo 'fn print_'^$1^' { echo '''^$1''' }' }
18:31:32 <ehird> ; `{printer hello}
18:31:38 <ehird> I was going to say something about code generation. :P
18:31:43 <ehird> (Still possible, you just gotsa use eval.)
18:31:53 <ehird> ; eval `{printer hello}
18:32:09 <ehird> Also, since $1 has to fit in a name, the echo '''^$1^''' bit could just be '^$1^'.
18:32:14 <ehird> Also I missed out a ^ after $1.
18:33:02 <ehird> http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/rc.html
18:33:02 <ehird> http://swtch.com/plan9port/man/man1/rc.html
18:33:06 <AnMaster> ehird, ah, I was wondering a bit about the {}
18:33:08 <ehird> I use it as my login shell.
18:33:24 <GrayGnome`> So you need an XML processor to process the Window descirptions, like wxwidgets XML?
18:33:40 <pikhq> And FreeDesktop.org... My complaint about it is that it focuses on X11 rather than replacing X11. But at least it's trying to make something sane on top of that, so.
18:33:58 <pikhq> GrayGnome`: No, no.
18:34:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, maybe it could be like an arch
18:34:07 <pikhq> The XML describes the library itself.
18:34:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, you uses something insane to support it while building it
18:34:21 <AnMaster> but when finished, it is self supporting
18:34:23 <pikhq> They then generate the C library from the XML.
18:34:33 <ehird> AnMaster: More readable rc transcript: http://pastie.org/585088.txt?key=8letokmt8wmixt6b5wk54q
18:34:34 <pikhq> And the XML library is formally verified.
18:35:01 <ehird> (So you can copy-paste input lines and the ; will just be ignored as an empty command.)
18:35:08 <AnMaster> ehird, you don't like fancy prompts I guess
18:35:17 <AnMaster> personally I have a hard time without a coloured prompt
18:35:36 <AnMaster> I just can't easily find where the output of the previous command starts/end
18:36:01 <pikhq> ehird: I can see the advantage of that, but I'm quite partial to my RPROMPT.
18:36:18 <AnMaster> as I said, I need a coloured prompt to easily be able to find where the output of a command starts
18:36:31 <ehird> AnMaster: stop writing gigantic gobs of commands
18:36:31 <pikhq> AnMaster: I've got a two-line prompt.
18:36:49 <pikhq> All the info is on the first line, and the second line just has "$".
18:36:51 <AnMaster> pikhq, I'm rather fond of gentoo's standard prompt
18:36:54 <pikhq> Oh, and the RPROMPT.
18:37:02 <ehird> Anyway, Plan 9's rc has prompt=('% ' '') by default.
18:37:04 <pikhq> Which has the PWD.
18:37:10 <ehird> The rc I use has prompt=('; ' '').
18:37:20 <AnMaster> or do you use some other shell
18:37:21 <ehird> Bash-like would be prompt=('$ ' '> ').
18:37:28 <ehird> AnMaster: right prompt.
18:37:30 <pikhq> It sticks stuff to the right of the prompt.
18:37:35 <ehird> additional prompt at right side of terminal
18:37:49 <AnMaster> otherwise I forget where I am when switching between shells
18:37:50 <ehird> I'm going to put the path in my terminal title.
18:37:56 <ehird> Instead of the meaningless "Terminal".
18:38:14 <ehird> ; fn prompt { echo test }
18:38:19 <ehird> Well, this will be easy.
18:38:19 <pikhq> I've got: %date %user@%host %tty\n $
18:38:31 <AnMaster> ehird, I use that to store a title. to indicate what I'm doing in it. To be able to find the relevant tab quickly
18:38:54 <AnMaster> like cf for cfunge, ef for efunge, mus for playing the music, or whatever
18:38:55 <ehird> precmd() { print -Pn "\e]0;%n@%m:%~\a" }
18:38:55 <ehird> export PS1=$(print "%{\e[33m%}")"[%n:%~] %#"$(print "%{\e[0m%}")" "
18:39:05 <ehird> which is [ehird:~] % in yellow
18:39:13 <ehird> and sets the title to
18:39:19 <ehird> ehird@Bournemouth:~
18:39:23 <pikhq> Well, the full PS1 is:
18:39:23 <pikhq> %{$reset_color$fg[blue]%} %B%* %D{%a %b %d} %{$reset_color$fg[red]%}%B%n@%m %{$reset_color$fg[magenta]%}%B%y %{$reset_color%} $prompt_newline %{$reset_color$fg[green]%}%B\$ %b%{$reset_color%}
18:39:28 <ehird> but now I just use ; .
18:39:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, you use tcap for finding those?
18:39:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, so I guess that means you use unusual terminals
18:40:03 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, zsh does.
18:40:12 <pikhq> "autoload -U colors&&colors".
18:40:17 <pikhq> Voila, those are set.
18:40:54 <ehird> Anyway, ~ doesn't even work in rc.
18:41:09 <AnMaster> idea (for sh-style shells, like ksh, bash, zsh and such): shell defined variables should only use all upper case. Scripts should mostly use lower case
18:41:21 <AnMaster> I have seen collisions a few times before
18:41:26 <ehird> ; fn prompt { printf '\e]0;'^`{pwd}^'\a' }
18:44:38 <ehird> Maybe I should write a stopgap project to ehirdOS that removes sucky shit from unix.
18:44:42 <ehird> Like, more than plan 9.
18:44:47 <ehird> Filesystems suck, especially.
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18:54:29 <ehird> http://pastie.org/585120.txt?key=tigsvxhlhamicfvkgnvg
18:55:04 <AnMaster> synergy doesn't handle well when one of the clients suspend and later resume
18:58:30 <ehird> synergy sounds kind of shit.
18:58:43 <ehird> AnMaster: do you actually want two computers or just two displays?
18:59:22 <AnMaster> ehird, actually, I want to be able to use one keyboard/mouse for both computers when I'm at home to prevent having to work at such an awkward angle for one
18:59:31 <ehird> that didn't answer my q
18:59:44 <AnMaster> or constantly moving latop/desktop keyboard back/forth
19:00:20 <ehird> [18:58] ehird: AnMaster: do you actually want two computers or just two displays?
19:00:30 <ehird> aren't you just using your desktop as an additional screen for your notebook
19:00:32 <ehird> or the other way around
19:01:17 <AnMaster> ehird, hm wouldn't say so. Atm I'm mostly using my desktop + doing some configuring on my laptop
19:01:39 <AnMaster> ehird, really, it is just a way to easily be able to work with both systems at once when I'm at home
19:01:52 <ehird> unless you're trying to do stuff the laptop can't handle, I'd just plug the display into the laptop
19:01:54 <AnMaster> which I won't be most of the time
19:02:19 <ehird> do laptops have a socket to use them as a display?
19:02:32 <ehird> the laptop's display
19:02:39 <ehird> like the socket on the back of a monitor
19:02:48 <ehird> i know laptops have a plug like on the back of a computer
19:02:50 <AnMaster> well I guess that would take too much space internally
19:02:50 <ehird> to plug in a display
19:02:55 <ehird> i don't know if they have a plug like on the back of a monitor
19:02:58 <ehird> to plug in to a computer
19:03:30 <Sneezle_> i can have a monitor plugged into my laptop. was that the answer for the question? just passing by... o.o*
19:03:40 <AnMaster> ehird, well I tried vnc, but really, see the bug about vino-server crashing all the time. and also copy/paste didn't work well
19:04:18 <AnMaster> ehird, btw this laptop has VGA and HDMI connectors
19:04:38 <ehird> Sneezle_: what wait where who are you
19:04:42 <AnMaster> since my desktop's monitor is TFT with VGA only, that isn't an issue
19:04:53 <ehird> VGA should be illegal
19:05:00 <ehird> displayport is nice.
19:05:08 <Sneezle_> i was told some minutes ago, i am a douchebag... :)
19:05:24 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort
19:05:28 <AnMaster> ehird, actually, DVI with a connector *without screws* would be nice
19:05:30 <ehird> Apple uses it and I think Dell.
19:05:33 <AnMaster> somewhat like the USB connector
19:05:41 <ehird> It's royalty free, the connector is very small, ...
19:05:54 <ehird> and it can handle just about any resolution on one link
19:06:14 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort#Supporters
19:06:26 <ehird> guess you ahve displayport
19:06:33 <ehird> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HDMI.socket.png
19:06:40 <AnMaster> I mistook the displayport for hdmi
19:06:42 <ehird> it's like DVI + audio + pointless
19:07:04 <ehird> I'd prefer everything used http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini_DisplayPort instead, though.
19:07:12 <ehird> It's smaller than DisplayPort and still supports up to 2560x1600.
19:07:17 <ehird> On January 13, 2009, VESA announced that Mini DisplayPort would be included in the upcoming DisplayPort 1.2 specification.[7][8]
19:07:20 <AnMaster> ehird, it might not be pointless to combine cables. Want to see the back of my desktop?
19:07:25 <AnMaster> ehird, it is like, lots of cables
19:07:38 <AnMaster> there is a switch on the shelf below
19:07:51 <AnMaster> it is quite a mess of cables behind
19:07:52 <ehird> I have three cables in my iMac; one going outwards, the other two going in.
19:07:58 <ehird> Only one is needed (outwards; power).
19:07:58 <AnMaster> and I doubt wireless monitors would work well
19:08:09 <ehird> One I wouldn't really like to give up (Ethernet; no draft-n router atm).
19:08:16 <ehird> And the last is the USB mouse that I'd be happy losing.
19:08:20 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't believe in printing.
19:08:28 <ehird> Besides, I'd use a networked printer.
19:08:34 <AnMaster> my printer is a multi-function one
19:08:37 <ehird> (Probably a two-in-one.)
19:08:57 <ehird> As in, plugged into my router.
19:09:15 <AnMaster> ehird, then you just move the cable mess from your desktop to your router
19:09:25 <ehird> Yes. It would have all of one cable plugged into it.
19:09:47 <ehird> Well, three; printer, ethernet (could be dropped), phone line.
19:09:47 <AnMaster> well, what about speakers or headphones
19:10:00 <ehird> I use the iMac speakers. They're okay.
19:10:09 <ehird> Headphones, sure, that's one cable.
19:10:17 <ehird> The built-in mic is fine for anything but recording music.
19:10:22 <AnMaster> ehird, one cable that splits into two connectors at the end
19:10:28 <AnMaster> unless you use builtin one yeah
19:11:00 <ehird> With my laptop, it'll be, uh, zero.
19:11:10 <ehird> One, if I have a headset on, I guess. (The speakers being bad.)
19:11:15 <ehird> One, if I'm charging.
19:11:18 <ehird> Two, if I'm headsetting and charging.
19:11:34 <ehird> It comes to one, though.
19:11:36 <ehird> So not really additional mess.
19:11:55 <AnMaster> so, three if headset and charging
19:12:05 <ehird> Yes, but the cable itself that clutters is only one, since they connect.
19:12:29 <AnMaster> ehird, also, you will need ethernet during installation at least
19:12:46 <ehird> WiFi works on the LiveCD.
19:12:53 <AnMaster> ehird, because the driver like to oops in the version on the livecd
19:12:55 <ehird> And you don't need a connection to install, anyway.
19:13:18 <AnMaster> ehird, this depends on exact model of course
19:13:35 <ehird> Probably the Intel 5300 card.
19:13:37 <AnMaster> if you have a different model of the intel wireless chipset it might work better
19:13:46 <ehird> No idea how it differs from the 5100, but it costs more, so it must be better, right? :P
19:13:50 <ehird> Oh, right, I looked it up.
19:14:33 <AnMaster> 03:00.0 Network controller: Intel Corporation PRO/Wireless 5100 AGN [Shiloh] Network Connection
19:15:09 <AnMaster> sv:agn = the thing you put on the hook to catch fish. IIRC
19:15:27 <ehird> Fishing rod, you mean.
19:16:08 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, but except for fishing en:bait is sv:lockbete
19:16:58 <AnMaster> it is only if the bait is live
19:17:28 <AnMaster> but not for the shiny things you use sometimes
19:17:42 <ehird> i will never understand fishing
19:18:42 <AnMaster> ehird, I think agn is mostly for when you just sit still and have the fishing rod still, waiting for something to find it. Not like when you throw the hook away and wind it in with a handle
19:18:53 <ehird> i want a copy of Franz Allegro Common Lisp :(
19:19:13 <ehird> AnMaster: one of the big commercial common lisp implementations along with lispworks
19:19:16 <ehird> pricing is like $5,000
19:19:23 <AnMaster> must be it supports A G and N standard
19:19:25 <ehird> it comes with a graph database
19:19:30 <ehird> enterprise-quality
19:19:39 <ehird> and you can query it with a prolog dialect
19:19:49 <ehird> (a lisp-based prolog dialect)
19:19:52 <ehird> and all sorts of stuff
19:28:07 <ehird> ehird@brnmth's password:
19:28:07 <ehird> Last login: Sat Aug 15 19:27:43 2009 from bournemouth
19:30:55 <AnMaster> ehird, so what is your naming scheme for computers then
19:31:06 <AnMaster> I recently decided on one myself
19:31:16 <ehird> I only have one, Bournemouth; that was named after the computer in Look Around You, series two.
19:31:26 <ehird> Previously it was Deep-Thought, but that was oh-so-cliche.
19:31:31 <ehird> Also this computer isn't even very fast. :P
19:31:38 <ehird> The laptop, no idea.
19:31:42 <ehird> Maybe unicorn. Or bunny. Or kitten.
19:31:49 <ehird> It's small and fluffy*, you see.
19:31:52 <ehird> *not actually fluffy
19:32:02 <ehird> Also unicorns are so small and fluffy shut up.
19:33:02 <ehird> The VM is brnmth because it's all unixy and codeular (i.e. linux not os x) and contained as a VM within Bournemouth.
19:33:05 <AnMaster> ehird, I decided for mythical creatures
19:33:15 <AnMaster> not for tux, since it already exists
19:33:42 <AnMaster> I already have phoenix (the pentium 3), so laptop ended up as "dragon"
19:33:48 <AnMaster> and from there it was easy to decide
19:34:06 <ehird> Maybe I should use words that sound like curses but aren't.
19:34:07 <AnMaster> however, none will be called "kraken", since sv:kraken = en:weakling
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19:34:41 <ehird> shihtzu. shittah. cockchafer. bitch (ok, arguable). titular.
19:34:49 <ehird> admittedly I stole half of them from the hilarious http://www.yankeepotroast.org/archives/2008/09/11_words_that_s.html
19:38:14 <AnMaster> Starting Nmap 4.76 ( http://nmap.org ) at 2009-08-15 20:38 CEST
19:38:14 <AnMaster> SCRIPT ENGINE: '/usr/share/nmap/scripts/skype_v2-version.nse' threw a run time error and could not be loaded.
19:38:14 <AnMaster> SCRIPT ENGINE: '/usr/share/nmap/scripts/iax2Detect.nse' threw a run time error and could not be loaded.
19:38:14 <AnMaster> SCRIPT ENGINE: '/usr/share/nmap/scripts/PPTPversion.nse' threw a run time error and could not be loaded.
19:39:06 <AnMaster> happens when I try using -sV to detect what is running on the port
19:39:53 * ehird splutters: Google to Launch a New Version of Google Search
19:39:56 <ehird> the UI is the same
19:39:59 <ehird> just redesigned the infrastructure
19:40:05 <ehird> I only use Google for the UI :P
19:40:09 <ehird> ( http://mashable.com/2009/08/10/google-new-version/ )
19:44:25 <pikhq> ehird: Google is not run by idiots.
19:44:29 <AnMaster> synergy does have some strange effects on the keyboard of the client btw
19:44:42 <ehird> pikhq: tbh there are things i'd tweak about the ui, mostly whitespace things
19:44:50 <pikhq> "New version" means that they finished up Google FS 2.0, not that they're adding a bunch of crap to the UI.
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19:44:58 <ehird> and i would get rid of the i'm feeling lucky, if i were designing it originally
19:45:08 <ehird> but changing anything now would just destroy it all
19:45:14 <AnMaster> while synergy is running, and active on that display, typing on keyboard works, but holding the key pressed down to repeat doesn't
19:45:16 <ehird> I swear google looked better in 2003, htough
19:45:18 <ehird> with the nice blue tabs
19:45:21 <AnMaster> not that this is an issue to me
19:45:27 <pikhq> They've done UI studies on removing I'm Feeling Lucky.
19:45:31 <ehird> that would kill me
19:45:39 <AnMaster> does it have to disable keyboard repeat
19:45:56 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... Disable keyboard repeat?
19:45:57 <ehird> pikhq: but if google was originally being designed, i'm feeling lucky could be omitted
19:46:05 <ehird> it makes people think google is fluffy and cute
19:46:07 <ehird> but it isn't good UI
19:46:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, only on the client (not the keyboard that controls synergy), and only while the control is on that screen
19:46:33 <pikhq> But it doesn't matter that much, because for the *most* part, Google has a good UI.
19:46:46 <ehird> yeah, the UI is fine
19:46:55 <ehird> though my ideal google UI would just be a text box.
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19:47:20 <pikhq> Nice and simple. "Put in text, you get results. Nothing else."
19:47:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, so if I just my desktop as the server (the controller), then if I move the mouse onto the laptop screen, typing on the laptop keyboard has no key repeat, typing on desktop keyboard works as usual
19:47:48 <AnMaster> if I have the focus on the desktop instead
19:47:55 <AnMaster> then keyrepeat works on laptop keyboard
19:48:02 <ehird> google has some discoverability problems
19:48:16 <ehird> I mean, even I don't know most of the special syntaxes
19:48:22 <AnMaster> it isn't like you actually use the laptop keyboard when server has control over it
19:48:32 <AnMaster> I can't see a reason to *prevent* key repeat either
19:49:45 <pikhq> ehird: Mmm, yeah. The advanced features are rather hidden.
19:50:00 <pikhq> It's not a perfect UI, but it's at least a good one.
19:50:24 <pikhq> Unlike so many other web sites. "Punch the monkey to navigate the site!"
19:50:37 <ehird> Munch the punkey to savigate the nite.
19:50:46 <ehird> "Duuuuuuuuuuude. Whoa."
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19:55:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, what advanced features in specific?
19:55:14 -!- Judofyr has joined.
19:55:26 <pikhq> "inurl:foo.bar baz", for instance.
19:55:32 <ehird> Boolean operators, grouping, what pikhq said, calculator, ...
19:55:34 <pikhq> "site:flimble.com foo"
19:55:39 <ehird> There's a LOT of things hidden inside that text field.
19:55:41 <pikhq> There's a lot of them.
19:55:50 <ehird> pikhq: stop saying the same things as me.
19:55:59 <pikhq> O'Reilly has a rather long book on it, entitled "Google Hacks".
19:56:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, two clicks from main page
19:56:10 <AnMaster> to reach http://www.google.com/support/websearch/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=136861
19:56:10 <ehird> AnMaster: You, sir, are being an idiot.
19:56:17 <ehird> That is not a discoverable interface.
19:56:21 <ehird> Also, that's just the BASICS.
19:57:14 <fizzie> AnMaster: did you say something? Lastlog is just "about phone" and scrolling is unfun with this.
19:57:19 <pikhq> Did I mention that O'Reilly has a long *book* on it?
20:00:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes, but I forgot what
20:01:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, it seems to be out of my scrolback
20:02:07 <AnMaster> so I would need to dig in logs
20:02:56 <fizzie> Sorry, no timestamps. Take up too many chars on the phone.
20:03:52 <fizzie> you could just grep today's log. Maybe not that important.
20:04:36 <AnMaster> aug 15 17:47:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, about phone
20:04:36 <AnMaster> aug 15 17:47:18 <AnMaster> do you have any bluetooth on it?
20:04:36 <AnMaster> aug 15 17:47:29 <AnMaster> and what about a computer with bluetooth?
20:05:25 * AnMaster slaps GregorR with a green slime
20:05:55 <AnMaster> which means you are into BIG trouble now. And if you don't know what sort of trouble, play more nethack
20:06:55 <fizzie> Yes, phone and iBook both have bt, that's what iSync uses.
20:07:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, then, why not use it to use internet over, rather than use that tiny screen
20:08:14 <AnMaster> -fizzie- VERSION irssi v0.8.13
20:08:45 <fizzie> Ah, you mean *here*. No, didn't take the laptop. I'm on vacation. :p
20:09:42 <fizzie> Using irssi over ssh with specific phone-optimized formats and keys.
20:10:19 <fizzie> Just for tonight. Okay, so on a mini-vacation.
20:12:06 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, do you know if ais had any problems with the Door recently?
20:12:42 <ehird> he's probably busy being dead or something
20:12:57 <AnMaster> ehird, is that no = don't know, or no = no issues
20:13:31 <AnMaster> ehird, also, I saw him in here yesterday or so
20:13:39 <AnMaster> so wouldn't call him "busy being dead"
20:14:48 <ehird> Over ssh, with X11 forwarding.
20:15:22 <ehird> http://nsl.com/k/life/life_editor.k ;; this is the code to a fast Game of Life including the full-featured editor seen at http://nsl.com/papers/life.htm
20:18:35 <ehird> and http://nsl.com/k/life.k is less space-intensive or something
20:18:48 <ehird> AnMaster: abstract array operations
20:18:59 <ehird> AnMaster: every line after .t..t: is just gui stuff
20:19:01 <AnMaster> ehird, ah, like that APL one in one line
20:19:05 <ehird> and also load: is just loading the pattern file and stuff
20:19:12 <ehird> the whole fast life implementation is just a few lines
20:19:18 <ehird> the rest is the fully-featured gui
20:20:04 <ehird> dunno, some gui stuff.
20:20:36 <ehird> AnMaster: http://nsl.com/k/life.k separates the sections more
20:20:39 <ehird> and is more space-efficient
20:20:46 <ehird> and can read RLE .lifs
20:22:11 <AnMaster> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/podcasts/podcast021.html <-- :D
20:28:21 <ehird> AnMaster: where are virtualbox shared folders in a linux guest?
20:28:35 <AnMaster> ehird, hm? where you mount them?
20:28:48 <ehird> i've just set one up in the gui named osx mounting the host path /
20:28:49 <AnMaster> assuming you installed guest extensions after last kernel upgrade in there
20:28:53 <ehird> how do I get it as a dir in the guest
20:29:07 <ehird> so the additions aren't starting
20:29:15 <AnMaster> ehird, need to rebuild against new kernel
20:32:02 <AnMaster> ehird, and then: no idea about mount point
20:32:33 <ehird> i love ubuntu, everything is just working
20:32:40 <ehird> servers aren't meant to be this easy.
20:33:22 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: Actually, "can't install Debian". And Mark Pilgrim actually uses Ubuntu now.
20:33:52 <ehird> But if by "can't understand Debian" you mean "will use something that makes things simpler than Debian when it can be done, without adverse effects that bother me", yes, I will.
20:34:01 <ehird> AnMaster: Uhh, he works at Google and stuff.
20:34:07 <ehird> And switched from OS X to Linux sometime?
20:34:13 <ehird> AnMaster: Dive into Python.
20:34:22 <ehird> oh, and dive into accessibility
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20:35:53 <ehird> ehird@brnmth:/$ find . -name osx 2>/dev/null
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20:36:16 <AnMaster> ehird, you need to mount it inside
20:36:46 <AnMaster> as in, mount -t vboxfs-whatever osx /whatever
20:36:52 <ehird> • In a Linux guest, use the following command:
20:36:52 <ehird> mount -t vboxsf [-o OPTIONS] sharename mountpoint
20:36:59 <ehird> I can add it to fstab, right?
20:38:12 <ehird> ehird@brnmth:~$ sudo mount -t vboxsf osx /osx
20:38:12 <ehird> [sudo] password for ehird:
20:38:16 <ehird> /sbin/mount.vboxsf: mounting failed with the error: No such file or directory
20:38:31 <ehird> ehird@brnmth:~$ ls -l /sbin/mount.vboxsf
20:38:31 <ehird> -rwsr-xr-x 1 root root 10536 2009-08-15 20:31 /sbin/mount.vboxsf
20:38:36 <ehird> It has a red background, the filename.
20:39:00 <ehird> I need to mkdir /osx, of course.
20:39:24 <ehird> fizzie: just VNC into your desktop!
20:39:38 <ehird> everythign in /Users/ehird is owned by root
20:39:48 <ehird> this is the problem with cross-OS mounts
20:39:50 <ehird> no idea how to fix that
20:41:03 <ehird> well, guess I could just mount it as ehird
20:41:09 <ehird> since I can't modify shit that needs root on the host anyway
20:42:51 <ehird> AnMaster: user=ehird right?
20:42:56 <ehird> to let me mount it
20:43:14 <ehird> oh, or uid=myuid and gid=mygid
20:43:47 <ehird> ehird@brnmth:/$ sudo mount -t vboxsf -o uid=1000,gid=1000 osx /osx
20:43:52 <AnMaster> ehird, it mangles permissions?
20:43:52 <ehird> /sbin/mount.vboxsf: mounting failed with the error: Protocol error
20:43:57 <ehird> AnMaster: well, how can it not
20:44:03 <ehird> how can it know that ehird = ehird
20:45:25 <ehird> Especially useful are the options uid, gid and mode, as they allow access by
20:45:25 <ehird> normal users (in read/write mode, depending on the settings) even if root has
20:45:26 <ehird> mounted the filesystem.
20:45:29 <ehird> Wonder why "protocol error" then.
20:45:47 <ehird> it's failing in general
20:47:38 <fizzie> It's an actual piece of software on both machines, it could automatically build username-based uid maps.
20:48:02 <ehird> bunnies and unicorns!
20:48:13 <ehird> "sudo mount -t vboxsf -o uid=1000,gid=1000 osx /osx" with /osx owned by ehird:ehird does it
20:49:05 <ehird> hmm, I wonder what "pass" is
20:50:24 <ehird> oh lawd, doesn't work in fstab
20:50:48 <ehird> osx /osx vboxsf uid=1000,gid=1000 0 0
20:50:54 <ehird> I guess it doesn't like osx
20:50:58 <ehird> but that's the device I'm mounting, isn't it?
20:52:23 <ehird> pjw1965's response works fine, however when placing them in the fstab they don't work because the vboxsf is not initialized prior to the fstab being processed. I am new to linux, so how can this be solved?
21:03:24 <ehird> FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK
21:03:31 <ehird> I DO IT EXACTLY HOW IT SAYS AND DOES IT RUN? NOOOOOO
21:22:04 <AnMaster> ehird, this is funny: http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/podcasts/podcast007.html
21:23:14 <ehird> debian's uber-retarded init.d administration script
21:23:20 <ehird> makes me want to stab peopl
21:23:48 <AnMaster> is it as simple as update-rc add sshd default?
21:23:54 <AnMaster> that is how it works on gentoo
21:23:57 <ehird> well, yes, if you want the defaults
21:24:03 <ehird> update-rc.d start sshd defaults
21:24:09 <AnMaster> ehird, ah no, on gentoo default is the default multi user run level
21:24:11 <ehird> actually drop the start
21:24:20 <AnMaster> gentoo doesn't use 3, 4, 5 and so on
21:25:33 <pikhq> Sure, but Gentoo uses init as nothing more than a wrapper for /sbin/rc.
21:28:08 <pikhq> That is to say, they are using SysV init as a way of doing BSD init.
21:29:11 <ehird> arch's bsd init is a godsend
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21:37:04 <fizzie> Gah, what sort of freaky lynx have they installed at work; "this client does not support HTTPS urls".
21:37:26 <GregorR> One that's not linked against an SSL lib, presumably :P
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21:39:06 <fizzie> links did https, but I don't know how to tell it to auto-linewrap a text/plain file.
21:55:50 <ehird> sheet:{[r;s]{r[2_sv 3#x _0,s,0]}'!#s}
21:55:50 <ehird> cyl:{[r;s]{r[2_sv 3#x _(*-1#s),s,*s]}'!#s}
21:55:50 <ehird> w:gbox 200 cyl[rule 90]\200#1 0 1
21:56:01 <ehird> ↑ A graphical implementation of the Wolfram automata in K.
21:56:15 <ehird> Rule 90; changing "90" will change, well, the rule.
21:56:43 <ehird> Single dependency:
21:56:44 <ehird> gbox:{(,/(7#,,:'&2){x,,y}/:(0 0 1 1 0;0 1 1 0 0)+/:,/(!#x),/:'&:'x),,,:'-1+^x}
21:56:44 <ehird> vbox:{(,/(7 2#,!0){x,,y}/:(0 0 1 1 0;0 1 1 0 0)+/:+y _vs x),,,:'2#|/y}
21:56:44 <ehird> p:gbox m:100 100_draw 2
22:00:42 <Deewiant> ehird: Btw, why K instead of J
22:01:25 <ehird> I like J for mathematical stuff; K has an awesome functional reactive programming gui thing and olegfink evangelised it a bit
22:01:57 <ehird> basically j's a mathematical vectory thingy, k's a general purpose lang with some awesome stuff that happens to be array based
22:02:15 <ehird> Deewiant: unfortunately there's no k3 for os x, so I have an unholy ssh-into-virtualbox-with-X-forwarding linux setup
22:03:04 <ehird> with a clever thing that cds to /osx/(host pwd)
22:06:37 <ehird> Deewiant: yes. it lacks the gui library and has morphed with some sort of Q language which is like some sort of english thingy skin over K4 whothefuckknows
22:07:23 <ehird> so me/olegfink/other-guy-person are using the 2005 k3 :P
22:12:15 * ehird attempts to disable ssh encryption
22:12:18 <ehird> no point wasting cycles
22:20:53 <ehird> eh i'll just use telnet
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