00:06:11 <ehird> http://abitbit.com/
00:26:04 <oerjan> keeps getting a 500 error
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02:48:43 <ehird> S..t:".[`D;(;);{. y};S[]];S[.;`f]:9$D[]"
02:48:44 <ehird> S:D:.+(`$'_ci 97+!10;10 30#,"")
02:49:28 <ehird> formulas like a[0]+j[29]
02:50:31 <pikhq> That is pretty awesome.
02:50:41 <ehird> http://imgur.com/n8uHT.png
02:50:46 <ehird> yes, that's a full gui
02:50:55 <ehird> no, there is NO code other than those three lines
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02:51:16 <ehird> ridiculously concise
02:51:54 <pikhq> I feel confident in saying that C is why we can't have nice things.
02:52:00 <ehird> only one caveat: you can't get the formula after entering it; the cell updates but editing it gives the current value and clicking away from it makes it keep that value
02:52:03 <ehird> but that's like a two line fix
02:52:11 <ehird> pikhq: you certainly changed after learning haskell :P
02:52:42 <pikhq> "... You mean there's something actually *better* than tons of boilerplate or ZOMG objects?"
02:52:49 <ehird> incidentally, the entirety of K is 181 kilobytes compiled
02:52:59 <ehird> 3K trivial wrapper k.exe and 178K k20.dll
02:53:07 <ehird> (windows version; gui on linux is iffy)
02:53:14 <ehird> (but sizes are similar)
02:53:27 <ehird> about 60% of the impl is the gui
02:55:54 <ehird> pikhq: oh, and kdb, the column-based db with sql support, http interface including xml/excel export and html/js interface, which powers a bunch of financial institutions?
02:56:10 <pikhq> Part of why I'm bitter about C today is that I've been working with Plof's C FFI today.
02:56:15 <ehird> consisting of .kr files (basically dumped K objects, including code)
02:56:24 <ehird> and one gif for the web interface
02:56:33 <ehird> (.dll files are 8K+16K, ODBC interface)
02:56:44 <pikhq> It is enough to make you despise C.
02:56:46 <ehird> (whole of actual really fast kdb is written in k)
02:57:15 <ehird> it's ridiculous, really
02:58:03 <ehird> disadvantage: hard to use many other languages now
02:58:06 <pikhq> Y'know, I think what I hate most about C is its awful, awful error handling.
02:58:23 <ehird> what i hate most about c is everything.
03:00:04 <ehird> i actually patched k's binary xD
03:00:26 <ehird> it started a console window which on wine was wonky, so i replaced a few bytes with nop and it stopped bringing it up
03:00:36 <ehird> instead using the terminal i started wine from
03:00:45 <ehird> who says you can't improve non-open-source
03:05:29 <ehird> (though i'd prefer it open source. and not circa 2005 due to them going k4/q, which abandons the functional reactive programming gui)
03:11:36 <ehird> pikhq: if you liked that, here's a one-line sudoku solver
03:11:37 <ehird> s:{*(,x)(,/{@[x;y;:;]'&21=x[&|/p[;y]=p]?!10}')/&~x}
03:11:51 <ehird> hmm, though it doesn't run on my k :(
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04:23:58 <ehird> (,!#y),(((#x)-1;1)#1+!#x),\:(#y)#0
04:36:26 <pikhq> main = getArgs >>= readFile . head >>= parse -- I think that Haskell has my favorite file handling.
04:41:08 <ehird> not sure how to do args
04:44:56 <ehird> pikhq: parse(6:_i[0])
04:45:16 <ehird> _i being arguments, 6: being read file as character vector.
04:45:23 <pikhq> ehird: Pretty spiffy.
04:46:33 <pikhq> And a vast improvement on the usual model of "Let's give you fopen and fread and friends".
04:46:52 <ehird> yeah, turns out such atomic operations are totally useless :P
04:49:33 <ehird> pikhq: to parse and read each file,
04:50:16 <ehird> we have to put a colon after 6: to note we mean the monadic (1-arg) version; not the (filename 6: contents) writing version
04:50:32 <ehird> (f' x) is applying f to each element of x
04:50:38 <ehird> _i is args like normal
04:50:54 <ehird> (if we want to each a dyad, it's (list f' list), which does the obvious)
04:51:05 <ehird> (and for an n-adic function, f'[list;list;list;...])
04:52:05 <ehird> pikhq: the haskell equivalent is uhh
04:52:36 <ehird> getArgs >>= mapM readFle >>= fmap (map parse)
04:53:07 <ehird> imo the k is more readable
04:53:17 <pikhq> Bit more verbose than the K, but still rather nice.
04:53:32 <ehird> though (do args <- getArgs; contents <- mapM readFile args; parses <- fmap (map parse)) works too, but is tedious
04:54:05 <pikhq> Bah. fmap (map parse) <<= mapM readFile <<= getArgs
04:54:23 <ehird> readable, but has more cruft than the k version imo
04:55:11 <ehird> pikhq: so, uh, a 512-bit RSA key has been factored
04:55:14 <ehird> http://www.unitedti.org/index.php?showtopic=8888
04:55:21 <ehird> the TI-83+ OS signing key
04:55:21 <oerjan> that doesn't work with the same parse as above...
04:55:30 <ehird> oerjan: prolly not, whatever
04:55:42 <pikhq> ehird: I am scared.
04:55:47 <oerjan> which gave an IO result
04:55:50 <ehird> pikhq: a high-end pc can do it in 2 months straight
04:56:02 <ehird> so not a great feat
04:56:19 <ehird> As I said on UTI, this took a fair amount of CPU power -- about 73 days of computation -- but it didn't really take a lot of work from me; mostly I just watched the numbers go up, and periodically started up another Msieve run.
04:56:25 <pikhq> ... People use 512-bit encryption?
04:56:42 <ehird> pikhq: in 1999? yes.
04:56:45 <oerjan> getArgs >>= mapM readFile >>= mapM parse
04:57:01 <ehird> oerjan: can't beat parse' 6::'_i
04:57:22 <oerjan> unreadability is hard to beat ;)
04:57:42 <ehird> oerjan: i'll go ask a java programmer what your snippet does.
04:58:13 <pikhq> let g = getArgs; (>) = (>>=); m = mapM; r = readFile in g>m r>m pare
04:58:24 <ehird> now that's unreadable.
04:59:12 <ehird> incidentally, kdb is ridiculously fast.
04:59:38 <ehird> it'd be hard to construct a query on 100,000 records that takes an actually perceptible time
05:00:32 <pikhq> Query: which records, when executed as x86 code, halt within 30 seconds?
05:00:48 <ehird> Good luck formulating that as a ksql query
05:01:01 <ehird> but the answer is likely "all of them".
05:01:50 <ehird> ksql is not strictly sql, btw, although iirc it has an sql9x something in it
05:02:00 <ehird> but ksql itself seems to be nicer than sql.
05:14:38 <ehird> 5:14am; should i sleep?
05:17:18 <pikhq> http://svn.freebsd.org/viewvc/base/head/lib/libc/stdlib/rb.h?revision=178995&view=markup This is stunning. Evil, but stunning.
05:17:56 <ehird> pikhq: when should i sleep
05:18:19 <pikhq> This time tomorrow.
05:18:37 <ehird> pikhq: srsly though.
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06:40:44 <AnMaster> ehird (for log reading): There is a good reason to use disk encryption in a laptop, even if you use a bios password: it is easy to take the disk out. If disk is encrypted information will still be unreadable :P
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09:04:01 <oklopol> ehird: pikhq: parse(6:_i[0]) <<< so 6:_i is a character vector, and somehow [0] extracts first line? or how does the parsing go here
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11:00:07 <oklopol> mbs_idx(x) = { n = 2^i; >> n; x | n = 1; i }
11:02:08 <oklopol> i love the muture paradigm, maximizing is a beautiful way to do absolute declarativity
11:02:50 <oklopol> muture is one of my languages, the idea that (>> expr) maximizes the value of expr is from it
11:02:53 <Deewiant> Google gives stuff about "muture women"
11:03:21 <Deewiant> So I guess there's nothing about it anywhere? :-P
11:03:36 <oklopol> it's *my* language, so of course not
11:04:14 <oklopol> well that's not muture code anyway
11:04:34 <oklopol> it's code in a language whose name i haven't even mentioned here
11:04:51 <oklopol> muture i've talked about, here, a bit i use #esoteric as my official specs :P
11:12:01 <lament> maximizing stuff is difficult.
11:13:00 <oklopol> i'm not saying it's at all practical, i'm saying i like to express stuff that way :)
11:13:38 <oklopol> i'm way past caring whether things can be implemented.
11:14:13 <lament> can you maximize user's enjoyment?
11:15:10 <oklopol> no, there are no side-effects
11:17:57 <oklopol> i guess you could add that for debugging, i mean getting a dose of heroin every time there's a bug might make testing much more fun
11:18:04 <oklopol> heroin might not be the best way to go
11:18:40 <oklopol> but something with a better fun/unfun ratio
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12:24:31 * AnMaster is using the bouncer at home through a ssh tunnel
12:25:27 <AnMaster> for ehird when he gets here: login is seriously screwy
12:25:37 <AnMaster> it said it used WPA on the website with config stuff
12:25:55 <AnMaster> it is open and when you try to load anything in a browser you get an *unencrypted* login page
12:26:17 <AnMaster> anyway the bad bit is still to come
12:26:31 <AnMaster> after verifying that, it redirects you to a web page with a broken cert
12:26:45 <AnMaster> and it seems to vary between access points
12:26:58 <AnMaster> always some ip starting at 72.*
12:27:38 <AnMaster> traceroute refuses to work here for some reason
12:29:02 <AnMaster> would collide with virtualbox, need to adjust that to use the third private range I guess
12:29:09 <AnMaster> since I use 192.168.0.x at home
12:30:15 <AnMaster> oh and I got a pass card thingy heh
12:30:43 <AnMaster> haven't found anywhere to try it yet
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12:37:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh wait, you didn't try to mean that what I said really meant "founded"
12:38:12 <AnMaster> I misunderstood you, misunderstanding me
12:38:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, it hasn't started fully, however they have a math course starting two weeks before... it is repetition of high school basically
12:39:03 <AnMaster> and, a better teacher than I had at high school
12:39:13 <Deewiant> So only first-years are there?
12:39:52 <AnMaster> and well, in two weeks I start at studying to dataingengör
12:40:03 <Deewiant> But you said it hasn't started fully
12:40:14 <Deewiant> And that you only have some kind of repetitiony math course
12:40:21 <AnMaster> screen a bit hard to read, ubuntu auto dimmed it
12:40:25 <Deewiant> Which, to me, suggests that it's some kind of extra thing for first-years
12:40:29 <AnMaster> you said "first-years", not "first year"
12:41:06 <AnMaster> well, a few others iirc, studying to become teachers, and deciding to take the course
12:41:19 <AnMaster> but most of the ~50 people were first-years at uni yes
12:41:32 <Deewiant> Well yeah, obviously the teachers and assistants for you guys etc :-)
12:41:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway I find the wlan login amusing, suspending for a few minutes doesn't seem to log you out always, only sometimes
12:42:06 <AnMaster> why the hell can't I do a traceroute OR tracepath from here
12:43:03 <oklopol> ah so you do officially start at the same time we do
12:43:23 <AnMaster> awkward chairs for using computers on a table in front
12:43:55 <AnMaster> I have to find somewhere else if I don't want my back to start hurting more than it already started, brb, *disconnects from bouncer*
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13:07:59 <Deewiant> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms644936(VS.85,loband).aspx - a BOOL-returning function that can return zero, nonzero, or -1
13:09:11 <AnMaster> too much work to click with the () IN IT
13:09:20 <AnMaster> not sure what happened there to the keyboard
13:10:53 <oklopol> luckily i have a modern client that makes it easy to click even links with parens!
13:13:01 <AnMaster> but meh, only links with parens in I can recall atm are the msdn ones
13:13:25 <oklopol> mine fails for (url), which is far more common
13:14:34 <oklopol> easy to make both work ofc, but i have no idea how to fix that in nnscript, so i guess you win
13:15:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, they seem to be url encoded there
13:15:48 <AnMaster> at least, most people post them that way
13:15:49 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foobar_(disambiguation)
13:15:55 <Deewiant> Doesn't look URL encoded to me
13:16:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, when I copy it, it ends up url encoded
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13:55:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, on there I was, since I installed using ubuntu
13:55:24 <AnMaster> whatever is the next last version
13:56:09 <AnMaster> when the old one stopped being supported
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15:22:44 <Deewiant> Oho, the first spammer to send mail to one of my plus addresses
15:25:04 <Deewiant> Put e-mail addresses on the WWW and it will come
15:25:16 <Deewiant> Though it might take a while, like it did now
15:31:05 <FireFly> I just get spam on my real adresses ._.
15:32:33 <oklopol> Deewiant: i don't think i have the energy for that
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15:51:16 <ehird> tunes.org seems down
15:51:45 <ehird> 22:40:44 <AnMaster> ehird (for log reading): There is a good reason to use disk encryption in a laptop, even if you use a bios password: it is easy to take the disk out. If disk is encrypted information will still be unreadable :P
15:52:32 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I'm assume a laptop like mine where you can take the disk out in a minute or so.
15:52:51 <ehird> my harddrive is terribly boring
15:52:51 <AnMaster> rather than something like an unibody mac
15:53:08 <ehird> you just get a screwdriver, take off three
15:53:13 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought unibody ones were harder
15:53:29 <AnMaster> ehird, so it is a unibody in two parts? :D
15:53:34 <ehird> you may be thinking of the battery, which lasts 3x as long as usual batteries and can't be replaced
15:53:51 <AnMaster> I assumed everything was as bad as that
15:54:11 <ehird> AnMaster: it can be replaced, actually.
15:54:13 <ehird> you just send it away
15:54:25 <ehird> (or destroy your warranty by doing it yourself)
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15:54:37 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, I'm glad I didn't get a larger battery
15:54:58 <AnMaster> it wouldn't have fitted in this laptop backpack. So I would have had to get the model for 17" laptops
15:55:12 <ehird> my laptop will be 12.1"
15:55:14 <AnMaster> as it is, it is maybe half a cm in the relevant direction that is free
15:55:19 <ehird> so I'll be hard pressed to find a bag it doesn't fit in
15:55:26 <ehird> even with a 30 cell battery :P
15:55:31 <ehird> maybe not 31 though!
15:55:51 <AnMaster> ehird, bag made for 15.4" widescreen. Laptop is 15.4" widescreen
15:56:03 <AnMaster> but not a lot of space free around that
15:56:23 <AnMaster> (in the computer section I mean)
15:56:24 <ehird> 12.1" + 9 cell is smaller than a 13.3", prolly
15:56:27 <ehird> it just sticks out an inch
15:56:40 <ehird> i thought the screen might be too small but it looks fine
15:58:34 <ehird> So, let's golf Hamming distance: error out if the two strings aren't the same length, then return the number of characters that they differ by. Define it as a two-argument function "ham".
15:58:57 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, I now have my own card to pass Doors
15:59:06 <AnMaster> lets hope I won't have as much trouble as ais did
15:59:09 <ehird> why do Doors even exist.
15:59:15 <ehird> we need to trust people more.
15:59:29 <AnMaster> ehird, to prevent People from Entering certain Rooms
15:59:57 <ehird> AnMaster: do ↑↑ the golfing in erlang?
16:00:04 <ehird> i'm interested in seeing how much it FAILS HORRIBLY
16:00:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I can understand them, expensive computers. Sure you don't want students from other parts of the university to use the computers meant for _your_ students
16:00:49 <AnMaster> if they want they could go to the ones in the library instead
16:01:02 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, read log to see how whacky the wlan login they use is
16:01:05 <ehird> if they're not being used, it doesn't hurt anybody; and besides, dammit, if you think your students are gonna ruin everything they shouldn't be your students
16:01:27 <ehird> 03:17:57 <oklopol> i guess you could add that for debugging, i mean getting a dose of heroin every time there's a bug might make testing much more fun
16:01:42 <ehird> until you just start adding bugs on purpos
16:01:48 <pikhq> ham xs ys | length xs == length ys = undefined | otherwise = length [ x : y | x<-xs, y<-ys, x != y] -- Like that?
16:02:03 <pikhq> Not much golf there, though.
16:02:17 <ehird> pikhq: Dayum bitch that's some verbosity.
16:02:19 <ehird> 04:25:55 <AnMaster> it is open and when you try to load anything in a browser you get an *unencrypted* login page
16:02:19 <ehird> 04:26:01 <AnMaster> which says it is using ssl
16:02:20 <ehird> 04:26:05 <AnMaster> as in the text
16:02:20 <ehird> 04:26:07 <AnMaster> but it doesn't
16:02:26 <ehird> <form action="https://
16:03:00 <pikhq> ehird: That's because Haskell has the idea of composing functions, rather than offering array primitives.
16:03:26 <ehird> btw k has some composition stuff.
16:03:30 <ehird> it's a very functional language.
16:03:46 <AnMaster> ehird, well, can't check until tomorrow, but firefox told me I was submitting the data to an unencrypted page
16:03:48 <ehird> are described as a data structure
16:03:53 <pikhq> [$K|ham:{+/~x=y}|] -- If someone bothers implementing K in Template Haskell.
16:03:58 <ehird> all the computation is done via dependencies, and is pure
16:04:04 <ehird> well doesn't have to be
16:04:46 <ehird> 05:10:53 <oklopol> luckily i have a modern client that makes it easy to click even links with parens!
16:04:46 <ehird> shut up, I'm the one who says things like that
16:09:43 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, the estimated battery time is pessimistic, it lasts about 150% of that
16:09:52 <ehird> so about 3 hours? :P
16:10:03 <AnMaster> ehird, estimated is 2 hours and 50 minutes
16:10:11 <ehird> nine hours in your face.
16:10:20 <ehird> (doesn't sound like a good way to spend time HUR HUR)
16:10:23 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I don't need that, lots of outlets around uni
16:10:36 <ehird> great, a portable computer that isn't portable
16:11:11 <AnMaster> ehird, it is. but I could get an ultrabay batter should it be needed
16:11:20 <AnMaster> since I'm not likely to use the cd drive a lot
16:12:20 <ehird> ah, was it sunny today?
16:12:28 <ehird> need to know about the daylight dammit :P
16:13:11 <ehird> i missed "and I was indoors" and wondered how rain and wifi caused cloudiness
16:13:18 <ehird> i guess in the same way it causes cancer
16:15:31 <ehird> http://www.vanityfair.com/images/politics/2009/08/qaddafi-0908-ps01.jpg
16:15:31 <ehird> this is an awesome picture
16:15:40 <ehird> spot the odd one out!
16:16:02 <AnMaster> ehird, the one in white? with a black cape thingy
16:16:18 <ehird> Congratulations, AnMaster. You are not conclusively proved retarded by that observation.
16:16:21 <AnMaster> other ones are politicians or similar
16:16:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Uhh, they're all heads of state.
16:16:35 <ehird> Qaddafi is just batshit.
16:16:38 <AnMaster> ehird, the one in white with a cape too?
16:16:56 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muammar_al-Gaddafi
16:34:03 <oklopol> ehird: shut up, I'm the one who says things like that <<< i say kinda stuff that to AnMaster all the time
16:34:15 <ehird> since recently, yes
16:35:41 <ehird> let's be ha-AnMaster-your-computer-sucks buddies
16:35:47 <oklopol> i used to do it before AnMaster, praising windows
16:36:10 <oklopol> when others had a problem my win didn't have
16:36:22 <oklopol> well, weird pluralization, but anyway
16:36:57 <ehird> it's hard to beat windows for compatibility
16:37:02 <ehird> modern linux is pretty good tho.
16:38:26 <oklopol> well i don't care about compatibility, more you know irrelevant details, just to annoy whoever's having problems
16:38:36 <oklopol> not sure i've done it that much, but occasionally.
16:38:45 <ehird> "Elements of G(4) continue to increase for a while, but at base 3 x 2^402653209, they reach the maximum of 3 x 2^402653210 - 1, stay there for the next 3 x 2^402653209 steps, and then begin their first and final descent."
16:46:29 <ehird> oklopol: maybe your J will be a worthy opponent to my K golfing!
16:46:53 <ehird> oklopol: or muture xD
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16:54:13 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodstein's_theorem
16:54:29 <oklopol> and how does the ham work?
16:54:38 <ehird> oklopol: +/ is sum obviously
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16:54:45 <ehird> x=y is atomic =; strings are vectors of characters
16:54:49 <ehird> so it's mapped over
16:55:02 <ehird> so we map all chars to whether they're equal or not
16:55:14 <ehird> oklopol: works for any list.
16:55:29 <oklopol> well yes, but i thought they were numbers, because i'm an idiot
16:55:55 <ehird> it even works for things like
16:55:56 <ehird> ham[(1 2 3; 4 5 6);(1 2 6; 4 5 3)]
16:57:33 <oklopol> so those are matrices, and the rows are being compared separately
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17:00:38 <ehird> the same-length-and-structure requirement is enforced by =
17:01:01 <ehird> oklopol: but it works for any dimension list:
17:01:02 <ehird> ham[((1 2 3; 4 5 6); (7 8 9; 10 11 12));((1 2 6; 4 5 7); (1 8 9; 10 4 12))]
17:01:08 <ehird> (that being (1 0 1; 0 1 1))
17:02:07 <ehird> (because newline = ;)
17:02:48 <oklopol> and can you "box" those two matrices so that equality has infinite rank?
17:03:43 <ehird> no boxing, but I think you can do infinite rank
17:03:48 <ehird> I'd have to look it up
17:04:19 <ehird> <K> error <me> k, K
17:04:34 <ehird> ~ is infinite-rank = in itself
17:09:33 <ehird> oklopol: [17:08] kpierre_: k doesn't have ranks
17:09:34 <ehird> [17:08] kpierre_: unlike other apls
17:13:20 <ehird> oklopol: it's a jabber chat and i'd have to ask them if you could come.
17:13:26 <ehird> i can if you want.
17:13:50 <oklopol> i'd have to look up jabber chat first
17:13:55 <Deewiant> ham=(.)(.)(.)sum$zipWith(((.).(.))fromEnum(/=)) but doesn't error out on unequal-length lists
17:14:06 <ehird> Deewiant: man hasksell is lame.
17:14:30 <oklopol> is jabber an alternative to irc
17:14:32 <Deewiant> Of course if we had a better Prelude that could be something like ham=sum.:zipWith'(fromEnum.:(/=))
17:14:38 <oklopol> GregorR-L: that was pretty lame
17:14:45 <Deewiant> (A more anal zipWith and (.:)=(.).(.))
17:14:47 <ehird> oklopol: jabber's an alternative to both msn/aim/etc and irc
17:14:56 <ehird> i use bitlbee so it's just an irc channel to me.
17:15:12 <ehird> oklopol: http://register.jabber.org/
17:15:18 <ehird> username, password twice, captcha, click register
17:15:21 <ehird> and you have an account
17:15:32 <oklopol> but i'd have to get a program too
17:15:42 <ehird> yeah, like 3 more clicks
17:15:57 <ehird> oklopol: how about I ask them first so you feel an obligation if they say yes.
17:16:04 <oklopol> i'd be there a few times, then stop
17:16:17 <oklopol> ehird: no i won't, don't be silly
17:16:21 <ehird> oklopol: http://www.jabbear.com/en/
17:16:55 <oklopol> hmm, turns out i need to leave right now
17:20:14 <GregorR-L> If I ever made a game where you jabbed bears ...
17:21:13 <ehird> `addquote <GregorR-L> If I ever made a game where you jabbed bears ... <GregorR-L> I'd call it jabbear.
17:21:17 <HackEgo> 71|<GregorR-L> If I ever made a game where you jabbed bears ... <GregorR-L> I'd call it jabbear.
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17:43:31 <ais523> hmm... it seems our heroic anti-troll is PuzzleHunter84
17:44:03 <ehird> Interesting idea, but how can it possibly work? (Even if it doesn't) --Zzo38 03:19, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
17:44:03 <ehird> —Talk:Almost impossible to learn and apply esoteric programming language
17:44:27 <ehird> ais523: oh, I don't think he's a troll, oh dear
17:44:44 <ehird> ais523: here's why I think so
17:44:49 <ehird> he says he made http://esolangs.org/wiki/Topline
17:44:49 <ais523> no, I think zzo38's reaction towards that is the same as my reaction towards TURKEY BOMB
17:45:03 <ehird> he says he made http://esolangs.org/wiki/Topline
17:45:11 <ehird> which is close to the generic cookie-cutter esolang we all hate
17:45:25 <ehird> the BF derivative acronyms as Ihybrid
17:45:32 <ehird> which suggests the title may be a joke, and was just picked to acronym like that
17:45:39 <ehird> he says he's going to try and implement the other one
17:45:54 <ais523> I don't think the author of ihybrid is a troll
17:45:56 <ehird> "I'm working on it and it will hopefully work. It is going to be incredibly complex and difficult to understand and even I wouldn't attempt to make a working interpreter. It'll hopefully be pretty close to Malbolge in the amount of confusion to be caused, but simple programs will hopefully be easier to write than in Malboge."
17:46:01 <ehird> doesn't even seem joking at all
17:46:09 <ehird> the languages are serious
17:46:11 <ehird> is what I'm saying
17:46:26 <ais523> yes, I don't see why they can't be
17:46:44 <ehird> ...then how is it a counter troll
17:46:50 <ais523> and topline is relatively cookie-cutter, but not nearly as much as, say, Minimal
17:47:01 <ehird> it's not a counter troll because he's being sincere with the language
17:47:05 <ais523> topline isn't counter-trolling; I think ihybrid may be, though
17:47:09 <ehird> I don't think he's trolling Minimal, I think it's a coincidence
17:47:14 <ehird> The name was almost certainly picked for the acronym
17:47:38 <ais523> it may be a complaint against BF-derivatives in general
17:47:39 <ehird> and considering the rest of the evidence, it seems like he might actually be part of the crappy BF derivative/zomgz really hard language brigade
17:47:53 <ehird> ais523: Yes, but I find that unlikely given:
17:47:58 <ehird> "I'm working on it and it will hopefully work. It is going to be incredibly complex and difficult to understand and even I wouldn't attempt to make a working interpreter. It'll hopefully be pretty close to Malbolge in the amount of confusion to be caused, but simple programs will hopefully be easier to write than in Malboge."
17:48:17 <ehird> because I can easily see "Almost impossible to learn and apply esoteric programming language" being a tongue in cheek, but sincere, name for a "zomg hard!!11" esolang
17:48:44 <ais523> my guess is it's meant to be hard to write in and harder to implement
17:48:47 <ais523> and very underspecified
17:49:01 <ehird> see, I think given the other evidence, the underspecification isn't intentional, per se
17:49:14 <ehird> and it leads me to believe that he's just whimsical with names for his sincere-but-terrible languages
17:49:20 <ehird> esp. given ihybrid's acronym
17:51:04 <ehird> so I guess our brains are the counter-trolls for thinking it was :)
17:51:06 <ehird> we could just ask the guy.
17:52:37 <ais523> oh well, unintentional counter-trolling is still counter-trolling
17:52:53 <ehird> ais523: by that logic, Minimal is counter-trolling
17:53:16 <ais523> counter-trolling what, though?
17:53:26 <ehird> terrible BF derivatives
17:54:13 <ais523> you've just given me an urge to post BF without ] onto the wiki again
17:54:26 <ais523> come to think of it, if you assumed the ]s went at the end of the program, would it be TC?
17:54:38 <ehird> +[code] with skip-next-if-true is TC
17:54:51 <ehird> *skip-next-if-false
17:55:14 <ehird> what about without [
17:55:22 <ehird> we infer where the [ is
17:55:30 <ais523> that's much harder to infer
17:55:31 <ehird> based on when we made a pertinent change to the current cell
18:06:44 <AnMaster> why does the password thingy at the uni forbid passwords ending with a digit
18:06:53 <AnMaster> and only allow between 6 and 8 letters
18:06:59 <ais523> to stop people just incrementing a number at the end whenever they have to change their password
18:07:09 <AnMaster> ais523, they could increment in the middle
18:07:10 <ais523> there's more or less an infinite number of password security misconceptions
18:07:16 <ais523> I think you just ran into one of them
18:07:25 <AnMaster> ais523, they also forbid at the start
18:07:50 <AnMaster> ais523, btw, how is the Door nowdays?
18:08:14 <ais523> AnMaster: haven't gone to that department for a while, I've graduated
18:08:26 <AnMaster> ais523, so what department are you at then
18:08:55 <AnMaster> ais523, and now I have my own Door card. For the local university here
18:09:04 <AnMaster> I hope I won't have issues with it
18:11:22 <ehird> i shouldn't learn good languages
18:13:20 <ehird> what has been learnt cannot be unlearnt
18:13:31 <ehird> or actually the other way around. i think K has made me unlearn the "art" of writing useless metacode.
18:16:30 <ehird> anything that isn't directly related to the actual thing being done
18:16:47 <ehird> every language has it by necessity. it's just that almost every other non-K language has a whole heap more.
18:17:10 <ehird> (one of the worst offenders is imperative code; that paradigm is _all_ metacode)
18:17:31 <ais523> ehird: and some imperative langs more than others
18:17:47 <ais523> in ADA, you need an emacs macro just to write a loop without dying of boredom
18:17:51 <ehird> I'm just saying that imperative code inherently has metagunk
18:17:52 <AnMaster> ais523, so what about this autumn. Will you go to university then
18:18:01 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, starting on a PhD hopefully
18:18:42 <ehird> ais523: please, make it involve esolangs
18:18:56 <ais523> well, it's in computer science
18:19:01 <ais523> so it's likely to end up tangentially related
18:19:04 <ais523> probably no more than that, though
18:19:14 <ehird> ais523 and follow the time-honoured naming tradition of "Meaningless Catchy Title: Long String of Specific Jargon"?
18:19:39 <ehird> YOU ARE TOO EDGY AND UNCONVENTIONAL
18:19:52 <ehird> AnMaster: The original, afaik, was Bananas in Space: Extending Fold and Unfold to Exponential Types
18:19:55 <ehird> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.1.7380
18:20:08 <fizzie> Here's a more complicated title-decomposition: http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=718
18:20:59 <ehird> academia is awesome.
18:22:25 <ehird> the hardest part of doing a phd must be picking a really obscure topic.
18:22:33 <ehird> i like to imagine you optimise for that.
18:23:05 <pikhq> Hmm. Thesis on the optimisation of Brainfuck?
18:23:23 <ehird> pikhq: despite appearances possibly gleaned from listening to AnMaster, it's not actually all that interesting or hard
18:23:40 <ehird> not nearly impossible enough for a phd.
18:23:47 <pikhq> ehird: It's obscure.
18:23:52 <AnMaster> okay, I know why the password is so limited now in length, it needs to be possible to enter on the photocopiers :D
18:23:54 <pikhq> And if you wanted to, you could make it hard.
18:24:04 <AnMaster> I bet they can't handle more than a limited length
18:24:05 <ehird> pikhq: (a) not the only criteria, and not THAT obscure
18:24:19 <ehird> AnMaster: what length
18:24:45 <AnMaster> ehird, well, considering there is a photo of one in the manual page of how to use one that says 0/10 entered
18:24:52 <pikhq> Fine, fine. Try to create a language that is as hard to optimise as possible.
18:25:10 <ehird> i doubt it's just because of the photocopiers.
18:25:12 <AnMaster> ehird, well, see above I mentioned it there
18:25:26 <AnMaster> ehird, there is a "no number at start or end" too
18:25:41 <ehird> length 8 maximum is common
18:27:29 <AnMaster> ehird, how many people use the MUA Eudora
18:27:42 <ehird> in the past, many many many people
18:27:53 <ehird> today? Eudora 8 (mozilla based), probably like 5
18:27:56 <ehird> older versions, quite a few
18:28:11 <AnMaster> ehird, well, the uni has setup instructions for Eudora 6.2, and outlook express, but none for thunderbird
18:28:27 <ehird> so your university is techtarded, why are you surprised
18:28:35 <AnMaster> it is plain IMAP and works in thunderbird though
18:28:52 <AnMaster> ehird, there are wlan setup instructions for XP, 2000 and 9x
18:28:58 <ehird> so your university is techtarded, why are you surprised
18:28:58 <ehird> so your university is techtarded, why are you surprised
18:29:11 <ehird> then why are you mentioning it
18:29:16 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> I just find it funny
18:30:33 <AnMaster> ehird, oh there is a guide how to install some root cert they use, to make those invalid certs work
18:30:40 <AnMaster> there is a download for that cert, over http
18:31:01 * AnMaster is not going to do that without verifying the checksum with tech support
18:31:13 <ehird> like that'll happen
18:31:20 <AnMaster> ehird, well, fingerprint then?
18:31:33 <ehird> <AnMaster> Hello, what is the checksum for the root certificate?
18:31:39 <ehird> <Tech support> Is your computer turned on?
18:31:43 <ehird> <AnMaster> Yes, what is the checksum?
18:31:46 <AnMaster> ehird, even funnier, it first gave 404, but when I changed the year part of it to the current year it worked
18:31:48 <ehird> <Tech support> OK, does "google.com" work?
18:31:51 <ehird> <AnMaster> Yes, what is the checksum?
18:32:00 <ehird> <Tech support> Okay, try shutting it down and starting it up again.
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18:32:21 <AnMaster> ehird, you can right click cert in windows and get it
18:32:24 <GregorR-L> Gee, I was just about to ghost 'im too.
18:33:59 <AnMaster> ehird, funny thing is, that some certs they use are valid
18:34:17 <AnMaster> where in this context valid = firefox doesn't complain
18:35:05 <AnMaster> oh my... "Microsoft Developers Network Academic Alliance"
18:36:45 <ehird> It's obviously a terrible and incomprehensible idea because it has Microsoft in the name.
18:36:54 <ehird> MSDN Academic Alliance (MSDNAA) is a Microsoft program available to academic organizations, mainly colleges and universities, although there is also a high school version. The participating schools pay an annual fee for the MSDNAA service, in exchange for which, applicable departments (computer science, computer engineering, information technology, and related fields of that organization) as well as students and faculty can acquire licensed copies of Microsof
18:37:11 <ehird> t Windows, Visual Studio and other products. The list of software each college and university gets is dependent on the agreements made by that particular organization.
18:37:23 <AnMaster> ehird, it is a terrible idea to promote microsoft this way! ;P
18:38:01 <fizzie> Our Windows box here is courtesy of MSDNAA.
18:38:15 * AnMaster stabs the pdf viewer several times
18:38:54 <AnMaster> it defaults to non-continuous scrolling, so I need to change every time I open a pdf file...
18:41:52 <fizzie> Oh? At least here Evince remembers the "continuous" setting.
18:41:55 <ehird> I hate learning new languages. It makes me want to write programs. :P
18:41:58 <fizzie> Well, for one PDF file, anyway.
18:42:20 <ehird> fizzie: Your logic and facts cannot stand in the way of our irrational hatred of Gnome and its WAR ON FREEDOM AND CHOICE!
18:42:39 <fizzie> It seems to be a bit document-specific indeed. Somehow.
18:42:52 <ehird> Okay, *that's* weird.
18:44:15 <ais523> I can confirm that; Evince persists information per-file
18:44:21 <ais523> it even remembers the location you've scrolled to
18:44:34 <ais523> closing Evince, therefore, can be undone just by opening it again
18:44:39 <ais523> it's an interesting paradigm
18:44:54 <fizzie> Yes, it seems to write per-file things to ~/.gnome2/evince/ev-metadata.xml.
18:45:20 <ehird> the scrolling thing makes sense
18:45:23 <ehird> document-based paradigm
18:45:30 <ehird> and that makes the viewing mode make sorta sense
18:45:37 <ehird> but it could do with a global preference for a default
18:46:36 <fizzie> I have a hunch the default is what-it-used-to-be-in-the-last-open-document, though I didn't really do extensive tests on that.
18:46:56 <ehird> (That also makes sense.)
18:47:22 <fizzie> Yes, I think it takes them from the <document uri="last-used-value" atime="1250530794"> element.
18:47:38 <ehird> So you have to use it at 1250530794 unix time for it to take effect?
18:48:05 <fizzie> The atime is probably for expiration. It seems to remember 15 latest documents there.
18:48:41 <ehird> It was a joke; surely 1250530794 is like, now?
18:48:44 <ehird> Minus some seconds.
18:48:50 <ehird> I was joking that it searched for exactly that time.
18:56:50 <pikhq> So, I just got one of my textbooks. It is apparently not for sale in the US.
18:57:17 <pikhq> Would explain why it cost $30 instead of $200.
18:57:47 <GregorR-L> Wooh unbelievable cost of textbooks!
19:00:04 <AnMaster> okay, part of the university website (a part called "e-blackboard"), refuses to accept firefox, user agent made that work, but it then refuses to accept jre 1.6, it wants jre 1.4
19:00:32 <pikhq> It is quite stunning that they charge so dramatically more for the US.
19:00:44 <ehird> AnMaster: old code.
19:01:09 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but that should run in 1.6 VM too
19:01:31 <ehird> Not if they check (vm==1.4) to weed out old versions.
19:02:20 <GregorR-L> Your university is quickly achieving a high score on the suckomiter.
19:02:39 <AnMaster> ehird, yes but that is just silly, since there is a link to some .com thingy at the bottom, as who made it
19:03:03 <AnMaster> anyway, they will run into issues
19:03:15 <AnMaster> most modern systems wouldn't have JRE 1.4 any more
19:03:34 <pikhq> I don't think JRE 1.4 exists for my architecture.
19:03:38 <AnMaster> they also use open source, for the bit that works best
19:04:03 <AnMaster> no idea what company is behind that
19:07:53 -!- ehird has set topic: Sinnax Cossack's Mathematical Emporium | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
19:08:52 <AnMaster> ehird, sounds like the name of a shop in nethack
19:09:00 <ehird> Sinnax Cossack's. Say it fast.
19:09:15 <AnMaster> ehird, don't know how to pronounce it
19:09:21 <ehird> Like "Sinnax Cossack's".
19:09:34 <ehird> It'll work just about any way.
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19:11:20 <ehird> GregorR: Say it fast dammit.
19:11:25 <ehird> Also, pay attention to the following word.
19:12:18 <GregorR-L> How about you win the ability to realize that "ex" and "ax" aren't pronounced the same way X_X
19:12:48 <ehird> In my dialect, at least, "Sinnax Cossack's" sounds quite like "sin(x) cos(x)".
19:13:39 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, GA? Generic American?
19:13:43 <ehird> AnMaster: "Well! I *am* a faggot."
19:14:02 <ehird> GregorR-L: "Schwer"
19:22:41 <AnMaster> then I much prefer american English
19:22:49 <AnMaster> even if I can't understand that
19:23:53 <AnMaster> ehird, http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/podcasts/IrregularPodcast007.mp3
19:24:13 <AnMaster> ehird, it is fine to begin with
19:24:33 <AnMaster> it is just 5 minutes and 12 seconds long
19:24:35 <ehird> isn't that australian
19:25:48 <ehird> I meant, why do you prefer australian english, and prefer it to what
19:26:25 <AnMaster> ehird, it sounds quaint, doesn't it?
19:26:40 <ehird> that was not my question
19:26:41 <AnMaster> ehird, as for "to what": American English
19:26:51 <ehird> and why, you didn't give a reason, it was completely without context
19:27:33 <ehird> [19:22] AnMaster: then I much prefer american English
19:27:37 <ehird> There was nothing attached to "then"
19:27:46 <ehird> <AnMaster> Then I like cake
19:27:51 <ehird> <ehird> then I much prefer green cake
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19:27:57 <AnMaster> it was connected to the above discussion
19:28:07 <ehird> yes, but the above discussion had no obvious thing to point out as a reason for that
19:28:24 <ehird> I don't think you understand what the word "then" means.
19:28:42 <AnMaster> ehird, sure, I just skipped some logical steps
19:28:58 <ehird> AnMaster: we call printing out these logical steps "communication"
19:29:00 <AnMaster> considering dialects or a while
19:29:21 <AnMaster> ehird, we wouldn't have had this discussion without me doing that
19:29:29 <AnMaster> so it would have been dead and quiet
19:29:48 <ehird> I think you just put words together and hope they make any kind of sense.
19:29:55 <ehird> My brain's hurting just trying to comprehend anything you've said.
19:45:52 <ehird> get:{x[&x[;0]~\:y;1]}
19:45:52 <ehird> table:(("hello";"world");("goodbye";"cruel");("foobar";"baz"))
19:45:52 <ehird> get[table;"hello"]
19:46:08 <ehird> i can read x[&x[;0]~\:y;1] unaided, which I guess means there's no going back now
19:49:05 <Deewiant> I wonder what the next "heee fun" thing will be
19:49:25 <Deewiant> Hasn't it been Haskell -> Factor -> K now? :-P
19:49:29 <Deewiant> Or am I swapping the former two
19:50:07 <ehird> Haskell I learned longer ago
19:50:14 <ehird> and have liked pretty much continually since
19:50:21 <ehird> factor i dabbled with just a bit
19:50:28 <ehird> forth has been the most recent one
19:50:35 <Deewiant> I'm going mostly by how much you've been hyping something here
19:50:45 <ehird> it's just awesome.
19:51:01 <Deewiant> We've had the discussion about the meaning of "to hype" before, I'm not going to reiterate :-P
19:51:08 <ehird> and it has more appeal than the ones I've actually hyped, since I can actually make stuff with it in a few lines
19:51:11 <ehird> Deewiant: err, no we haven't
19:51:46 <Deewiant> I'd grep it from the logs if I weren't booted into Windows
19:56:03 <ehird> "Note that this web site will close down on December 18, 1999."
19:56:16 <ais523> ehird: is that on a current website?
19:56:27 <ehird> Not updated, but it's there.
19:56:40 <ehird> I bet it's been on every todo list since.
19:56:58 <Deewiant> (http://page.mi.fu-berlin.de/prechelt/phonecode/)
19:58:19 <ehird> Deewiant: I suppose you know that ais523 can't use google :P
19:58:43 <ais523> oh, I didn't even want to visit the page, just to know that it existed
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19:59:23 <Deewiant> I believe in pressing Alt+D,Ctrl+C,Alt+Tab,Ctrl+V,Enter,Alt+Tab to ten other people typing something into google
20:02:02 <ehird> I was referencing the fact that ais523 refuses to google things and when presented with a URL usually asks the linker to summarise it for em.
20:02:28 <Deewiant> Oh, he refuses to Google as well?
20:03:30 <ehird> yes, whenever he asks a trivial question and I say "you could just google that in half the time and bother less people" he refuses.
20:05:04 <ais523> ehird: I consider getting information from people more reliable than getting it from computers
20:05:21 <ehird> (this is despite the fact that when I answer such questions I almost always use google)
20:05:36 <ehird> But it's the human touch of the nickname next to it, isn't it.
20:05:50 <ais523> oh, I assumed people were answering from personal knowledge
20:06:07 <ais523> or at least, if I look it up on the Internet, I already know which site/page to look on
20:06:30 <ehird> I don't know half of the things you ask about, so of course I google them
20:06:51 <ehird> and find an answer in a few seconds, vs the ~30 seconds it takes from you asking to me rewording and sending an answer from google.
20:15:02 <oklopol> i think the reason i hate googling and reading linked pages so much is that they take so long to open
20:15:08 <oklopol> because i have a crappy connection
20:15:27 <ehird> oklopol: disable all css!
20:15:44 <ehird> oh, and javascript.
20:15:48 <ehird> hard to make that slow. even on dialup.
20:15:49 <oklopol> i mean of course that's not my rational reason to hate googling, since it's still pretty *fast*, it's just annoying
20:16:01 <oklopol> i want things to be instant
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20:19:08 <oklokok> out of interest, if i disable css, how will the browser inform the server about that?
20:19:20 <ehird> it just won't load css files
20:19:21 <oklokok> i guess it could just not load it.
20:19:26 <ehird> if there's some inline in the page it will just ignore them
20:19:32 <oklokok> i forgot people usually separate them :P
20:19:48 <oklokok> not that i even know how to inline it
20:20:25 <oklokok> i mean if they were usually inlined, then obviously disabling wouldn't help
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20:21:30 <ehird> oklokok: it would slightly
20:21:33 <ehird> since rendering time would be quicker
20:21:35 <ehird> esp for complex css
20:21:38 <ehird> due to the box model stuff
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20:37:58 <pikhq> Y'know, music radio is terrible.
20:38:36 <pikhq> There is exactly one station I can bear listening to. The local NPR syndicate.
20:38:41 <pikhq> Erm. Not syndicate.
20:38:44 <pikhq> But local NPR station.
20:39:48 <pikhq> (listening for emergency weather info)
20:40:08 <ehird> have you guys ever considered living in a country where they don't get emergency weather.
20:41:28 <pikhq> Moving is non-trivial.
20:41:36 <pikhq> Especially when you have *that* as a criteria.
20:43:00 <pikhq> Ah well. I can deal with listening to "Mozart Monday".
20:45:23 <pikhq> Now if only FM radio didn't suck, quality-wise.
20:45:43 <ehird> just listen to internet radio.
20:46:21 <pikhq> Note: Internet not stable.
20:46:27 <pikhq> Also, bandwidth cap.
20:46:57 <ehird> just listen to TCP/IP/FM radio
20:54:23 <pikhq> FM-over-IP-over-TCP
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21:02:14 <pikhq> Sure. We send an audio waveform over AM, and modulate the frequency of that.
21:02:43 <oklokok> that's them combined, "over" would imply an asymmetric thingie
21:03:04 <ehird> just send FM data over AM
21:03:09 <ehird> it'll just come in slower
21:03:12 <ehird> so you'll have to buffer it
21:03:13 <oklokok> but i guess i'm only saying that because i was just about to say the exact same thing
21:03:33 <pikhq> ehird: Does not work that way.
21:03:37 <pikhq> FM and AM are analog.
21:03:51 <ais523> pikhq: FM-over-AM would give you a very low information rate
21:04:15 <ais523> actually, only half what you'd get otherwise in a physically ideal situation
21:04:23 <ehird> so just buffer it :P
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21:04:34 <pikhq> ais523: Yes, so you would have an *absurdly* low dynamic range.
21:04:49 <ehird> just stretch it out
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21:05:24 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Y'know, music radio is terrible. <-- not in Sweden. We have classical music on P2
21:05:24 <pikhq> ehird: Congrats, you've increased the SNR, but not the dynamic range.
21:05:45 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, we have classical on NPR. And that's all there was worth listening to.
21:05:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, unless they happen to broadcast news in minority languages
21:05:57 <pikhq> Is *good* rock too much to ask for? (yes)
21:06:07 <ehird> <AnMaster> NO SUCH THING
21:06:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes, since it basically is so rare :P
21:06:13 <ehird> <AnMaster> CLASSICAL IS THE ONLY LISTENABLE THING EVERRRRRRRR
21:06:22 <ehird> <AnMaster> ALSO oklokok I THOUGHT YOU LIKED METAL. THAT'S THE SAME AS ROCK
21:06:26 <AnMaster> ehird, nah, I like some baroque music too
21:06:34 <AnMaster> and music from the romantic period
21:06:37 <ehird> AnMaster: same thing
21:06:39 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, it's not. It's just not shoved on the radio much.
21:06:47 <GregorR> Romantic is better than both.
21:06:48 <ehird> AnMaster: And rock and metal aren't the same thing too.
21:06:55 <ehird> But let's play by your rules!
21:07:02 <ehird> Classical=baroque=romantic.
21:07:07 <ehird> It's all boring things with strings.
21:07:10 <GregorR> AnMaster: Yes! /me shoves borodin down your throat
21:07:11 <pikhq> Okay, what should I listen to after Kansas's "Magnum Opus". Hmm.
21:07:18 <ehird> Just like rock and metal are both noisy things with distorted guitars.
21:07:27 <AnMaster> ehird, I accepted that they may differ. Months ago
21:07:36 <GregorR> ehird: And they're all soundy things with instruments that make notes
21:07:49 <ehird> GregorR: They're all made of atoms
21:07:52 <pikhq> GregorR: You win an Egobot.
21:07:56 <ehird> They're all made of quarks
21:08:01 <ehird> Also they're all energy
21:08:05 <AnMaster> ehird, well, personally I find it hard to notice the difference. But I accept an expert might notice it.
21:08:07 <ehird> In conclusion, everything is the same.
21:08:10 <ehird> AnMaster: "an expert" XD
21:08:18 <oklokok> as i don't give an absolute shit about instruments, rock and metal have much less to do with each other than say metal and classical
21:08:21 <ehird> GregorR: But what about things that aren't but might WILL BE.
21:08:24 <ehird> They are all CONCEPTS.
21:08:38 <oklokok> i've probably mentioned my opinions on the matter though
21:08:43 <ehird> oklokok: nonsense, metal is crude music for the hoi polloi
21:08:47 <oklokok> i've probably mentioned that too
21:08:47 <pikhq> oklokok: True. Of course, "rock" has a very, *very* loose definition.
21:08:51 <ehird> in our ivory tower, classical is the only untouched beautyf
21:08:53 <AnMaster> ehird, yes? I do agree that I'm not a noob on what in Swedish would be called "konstmusik", (english translation: "art music")
21:08:58 <oklokok> pikhq: yes, but all of it sucks :P
21:09:17 <ehird> AnMaster: anyone who has ever listened to either rock or metal can easily tell them apart.
21:09:19 <pikhq> oklokok: ... Lies.
21:10:18 * pikhq shall listen to the overture from Tommy.
21:10:26 <GregorR> You see, rocks are solid structures formed from minerals, whereas metals are elements are alloys which are electrically conductive.
21:10:34 <oklokok> what i conveice as "rock" is the stuff where the only actual melody is in the guitar solo, and the rest is trivial chord progressions, emphasis being on singing
21:10:34 <GregorR> Some rocks contain metals, however!
21:10:38 <pikhq> Actually, let's go for the whole thing. Whoo.
21:10:57 <GregorR> oklokok: You've just defined most popular music throughout time :P
21:11:07 <pikhq> oklokok: Well, if that's the definition you're going with, yes, it almost *entirely* sucks.
21:11:09 <GregorR> Only s/guitar/lute/ if you go back far enough, and s/lute/fife/ eventually.
21:11:11 <oklokok> GregorR: i see no crucial difference between most pop and most rock
21:11:19 <ehird> from topic "Why call it K", by arthur whitney
21:11:20 <ehird> 2. if he didn't like it he could go to L]]
21:11:26 <ehird> oerjan should sue him.
21:11:34 <GregorR> By "popular music" I don't mean "pop" specifically, I mean "popular music"
21:11:52 <oklokok> well right, metal isn't like that
21:12:00 <oklokok> those are the ones i listen to
21:12:07 <oklokok> and some jazz, which isn't in that category either
21:12:07 <ehird> oklokok: by your definition i don't listen to any rock
21:12:28 <oklokok> my definition might be wider, that's the definition of the kind of rock i dislike
21:12:58 <ehird> maybe i should stop liking all music in 4/4
21:13:12 <GregorR> I listen EXCLUSIVELY to music with prime denominators.
21:13:40 <ehird> i only like music in (1/3i)/4*sqrt(2)^(log_pi(e))
21:13:44 <oklokok> took me ages to get a firm grip over 5/2^n and 7/2^n
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21:14:00 <GregorR> oklokok: I said prime DENOMINATORS :P
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21:14:18 <oklokok> i also like 11, after that it's just "random amount of beats"
21:14:38 <ehird> i wonder what the sig i mentioned would be like :D
21:14:48 <GregorR> oklokok: Even with 5, it's usually better characterized as "three and two" or "four and one"
21:15:04 <ehird> so i guess nothing
21:15:09 <oklokok> GregorR: well right, i wasn't directly responding to you, but that does sound interesting... wait, actually it means nothing really
21:15:44 <GregorR> 4/3 would just mean that for some idiot reason you have to write what you ought to write as quarter notes as quarter-note triplets :P
21:16:05 <oklokok> "3 3 2 2" is how that one famous song does it
21:16:51 <oklokok> mission impossible? well dunno
21:18:12 <GregorR> http://www.kellamknives.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_9_16&products_id=597 WAAAAAAAAAAAANT
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21:19:20 <ehird> oklokok: isn't mission impossible 3 4 3 3
21:19:36 <ehird> duh duh duhh, duh duh dah duh, duh duh duhh, dah duh duh
21:19:37 <pikhq> I'll just note that some of my favorite "rock" music is instrumental.
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21:20:21 <pikhq> Melody? Who needs it.
21:20:44 <ehird> wait, i misremembered it.
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21:25:41 <pikhq> oklokok: Okay, 9 minute in and there's been about 30 seconds of lyrics. Is that rock? :P
21:28:26 <oklokok> over 9 minutes is already way beyond my conception of basic rock
21:28:56 <pikhq> Then Pink Floyd is not rock.
21:29:28 <oklokok> well i associate the name with rock
21:29:37 <pikhq> And "Dark Side of the Moon", often called the greatest rock album, is not rock.
21:29:40 <oklokok> and i recall i didn't especially care of it
21:29:55 <oklokok> but really, i'm just saying my definition sucks.
21:31:28 <olsner> bah, who cares what genre it is? either you like it or you don't (well, or anything inbetween, really)
21:32:22 <oklokok> i suck at genres, and i agree. i just happen to know i dislike most rock and pop
21:32:50 <oklokok> but, i do even like some pop
21:33:17 <oklokok> for instance britney spears has many interesting melodies, about which people often disagree with me, for some reason
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21:42:53 * GregorR plays Borodin's Nocturne from String Quartet #2
21:43:34 * pikhq is still playing "Dark Side of the Moon"
21:43:37 <oklokok> then i guess we'll get a recording of that one song of yours as well
21:43:50 * GregorR plays AN MP3 OF Borodin's Nocturne from String Quartet #2
21:46:51 <fizzie> Egh, this 4544x1280 desktop is taking some getting used to.
21:48:33 <fizzie> I used to have a perfectly reasonable 1024x1280 (pivot) + 1920x1200 pair, but then we had this 1600x1200 monitor and my wife wants it off the table it used to be on, and I don't want to just throw it away, and ...
21:49:21 <fizzie> Yes. And 1280 high, though the 80 lowest pixels are only visible on that pivoted monitor.
21:50:12 <olsner> I could actually fit in another 1600x1200 or 1920x1200 on this desk, I have a 1600x1200 and a 1920x1200 now
21:50:16 <olsner> not sure I want to though
21:50:40 <fizzie> It's a bit annoying that the 1600x1200 and the 1920x1200 screens (20" and 24" nominally) have different pixel pitch; .255mm for the 20" one (100dpi) and .283mm or so (90dpi?) on the 24".
21:51:11 <olsner> if you have overlapping windows, that is... I usually don't notice
21:51:41 <fizzie> Well, everything looks smaller on this screen; I'm not sure this setup is doing per-screen DPI correctly, since it's that nvidia's "merged as a single framebuffer" thing.
21:51:55 <olsner> I like to keep "visible on all workspaces" windows, like browser+irc on the 1600x1200, and N*work on the 1920x1200
21:52:30 <olsner> I think I have an overridden dpi value anyway, the defaults keep getting me insanely huge fonts
21:53:23 <fizzie> My standard 8pt DejaVu Sans Mono is a bit on the small side on the 20" screen, especially since it's further away.
21:54:23 <fizzie> xdpyinfo reports "screen #0: 3520x1200 pixels (961x321 millimeters), 93x95 dots per inch".
21:55:17 <fizzie> I guess it's just a sum of the widths, which is making the DPI value non-rectangular, since it's max(height1, height2) for the physical height.
21:55:33 <olsner> that's ... *exactly* the pixel size, millimeter size and dpi as my setup
21:56:23 <fizzie> Right. Non-rectangular would be more interesting, though.
21:56:38 <fizzie> Non-euclidean DPI, for the Lovecraft fans.
21:57:14 <olsner> hexagonal actually makes some kind of sense
21:57:53 <olsner> in any case, it would be very cool to have hexagonal windows on a hexagonal screen
21:58:26 <oklokok> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
21:58:27 <GregorR> Sounds like one of those stupid sci-fi movies.
21:58:28 <oklokok> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
21:58:57 <olsner> GregorR: *cool sci-fi movies
21:59:14 <oklokok> hey seriously, where can i get one of those
22:07:43 <ehird> [21:46] fizzie: Egh, this 4544x1280 desktop is taking some getting used to.
22:08:04 <oklokok> i wanted too, until i heard about hexagons
22:08:28 <ehird> oklokok: how about polygon displays
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22:10:44 <ehird> oklokok: instead of hexagon pixels, arbitrary polygon pixels
22:13:34 <oklokok> well i'm not that interested in hexagon pixels, actually
22:14:50 <fizzie> It's a bit tricky in that the 1600x1200+1920x1200 screens are on the PCI-E card, while the pivoted screen is on the on-motherboard Radeon; if I select "init PCI-E first" in bios, the on-chip graphics aren't visible at all, so I have to use the on-board graphics as the "primary" device, and therefore the linux text console ends up on the 90 degrees rotated monitor.
22:15:08 <fizzie> A framebuffer console could be rotated, but the text one doesn't know about things like that.
22:15:34 <fizzie> Fiddling in a working xorg.conf made my neck hurt already.
22:16:11 <ehird> fizzie, can I just come over to wherever those screens are and like, use them?
22:16:17 <ehird> i'll stay out of the way, i promise
22:16:59 <fizzie> I'm not sure how that would work. I could take you a photo, though compared to some of the billion-monitor setups seen in the interwebs this really isn't all that fancy.
22:17:15 <ehird> basically, instead of you being there using the screens
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22:19:08 <fizzie> I think I would, you know, notice.
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22:20:37 <fizzie> Eh, enabling the onboard display added an audio device to the system.
22:20:49 <fizzie> "Radeon X1200 Series Audio Controller", it's used for the HDMI audio whatever.
22:22:03 <ehird> fizzie: you could use another computer?
22:22:32 <fizzie> Will be interesting to see if this thing even supports twinview-for-two-monitors + xinerama-for-a-third, since twinview does some sort of fake-xinerama-info thing.
22:23:09 <oklokok> ehird: why were you reading about goodstein's theorem
22:23:40 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:23:54 <ehird> oklokok: john tromp's website linked to it
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22:31:47 <fizzie> "(EE) RADEONHD(1): RHDMCSetupFBLocation: Cannot setup MC: not idle!!!" Well, that's not good, whatever it means.
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22:41:39 <fizzie> And with the three-xinerama-screens variant it just goes "Screen 2 deleted because of no matching config section" and only uses two of the monitors.
23:00:01 <ehird> http://www.newlaunches.com/entry_images/0507/29/912sh07.jpg / this isn't a phone, it's a tv
23:00:59 <ehird> http://xkcd.com/624/
23:01:02 <ehird> Github for lesbians!
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23:55:24 <GregorR> I think I'm going to make xkcdsuckssucks.blogspot.com :P
23:55:44 <GregorR> Oh wait it already exists X-D
23:57:05 <GregorR> Oh, it's owned by the same guy as xkcdsucks.blogspot.com P