00:00:22 <oklopol> if that is the case, then i'm happy.
00:01:12 <oklopol> also why should i know what death star is even if i'd watched star wars, it's impossible to associate names to objects
00:03:07 <ehird> oklopol: associate the ascii code
00:03:25 <ehird> (('d'*256)+'e')*256 etc
00:03:53 <ehird> death star is... 474106791790616748777842
00:04:06 <ehird> in base 36: 257cp4xu24vwgcxe
00:09:22 <oklopol> CUTE LITTLE BOTTIE SWIMMING IN A TREE
00:09:35 <oklopol> computational geometry is sexy
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00:10:55 <ehird> beep i base the beeping robot
00:10:59 <ehird> to beep the beeping beep
00:11:09 <ehird> MizardX: you did WHAT to that goat?
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00:12:34 <ehird> MizardX: you're backwardsly not amused.
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00:12:50 <MizardX> I used the same order as you
00:13:11 <ehird> irb(main):005:0> x="";while i != 0; r = i % 256; i = i / 256; x<<r;end
00:13:19 <ehird> (I originally typed that as poops...)
00:40:24 <ehird> oklopol: beeeeeeeeep
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00:57:15 <ehird> stumpwm seems silly
01:00:53 <ehird> oklopol: unbeep!!!
01:01:12 <ehird> Holy fuck, I feel an insatiable urge to write some Lisp.
01:01:16 <ehird> oklopol: WHy THE BEEP
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01:02:47 <ehird> http://www.samsung.com/hk_en/consumer/detail/detail.do?group=computersperipherals&type=monitors&subtype=giantseries&model_cd=LS23MYZAFV/XSH ; 16:10 → 16:9 → this holy crap.
01:03:19 <ehird> I sort of have a reflex where I hit Cmd-T, r, down, enter and I get onto proggit.
01:03:24 <ehird> (Omit the down for non-proggit.)
01:03:28 <ehird> It's sort of hard to shake off.
01:07:50 * ehird decides to write either a window manager or an irc bot.
01:10:24 <impomatic> Why not something that combines both?
01:11:10 <ehird> impomatic: Like what? :P
01:12:18 <impomatic> I don't know. Invent something we don't realise we need. Then find a way to create a need for it.
01:12:34 <ehird> Like locking someone in a box and forcin them to use it? :P
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01:27:52 <ehird> "--with-clisp=/usr/local/downstairs/to/the/left/clisp" — stumpwm readme
01:28:01 <ehird> impomatic: lol, you're in the same timezone and i'm wide awake :D
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01:57:22 <ehird> http://imgur.com/zwbOA.png ; if it weren't for that prompt in the top-right, I wouldn't have just become a stumpwm fanboy
01:57:46 <ehird> It's running a goddamn SBCL. Bahahahaha YES.
02:01:26 <ehird> "This will change the prefix key to <Control> + <Meta> + <Hyper> + <Super> + the <z> key. By most standards, a terrible prefix key but it makes a great example."
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02:23:15 <pikhq> ehird: StumpWM is quite good.
02:23:25 <pikhq> The only reason I don't use it is inertia.
02:23:42 <pikhq> (that is, StumpWM is strictly better, but Ratpoison is... Already working.)
02:46:49 * coppro enjoys using quirks in punctuation like question or exclamation marks in the middle of a sentence
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03:49:07 <ehird> pikhq: git clone git://git.savannah.nongnu.org/stumpwm.git && cd stumpwm && autoconf && ./configure && make && sudo make install
03:49:10 <ehird> then "stumpwm" works
03:49:23 <ehird> ofc, "sudo apt-get instal sbcl" first
03:49:29 <ehird> if on a debian-alike
03:49:45 <ehird> (helps to check that the sbcl package isn't threaded; stumpwm is temperamental with a threaded sbcl)
03:50:06 <ehird> Also, xnest is FUCKING AWESOME <3
03:52:46 <ehird> pikhq: oh, you need to install two packages first, like this:
03:52:52 <ehird> (require 'asdf) (require 'asdf-install)
03:52:59 <ehird> (asdf-install:install 'clx) (asdf-install:install 'cl-ppcre)
03:53:22 <ehird> (skip gpg checks, install personally or system, your choice; if system, do it as root)
03:53:40 <ehird> (I recommend personally, because if you put all your packages local, you can use C-t : to do package management)
03:55:22 <ehird> in fact I wonder why tiling wms do complex arrangements; all they need is one level of vertical split, and one level of horizontal split
03:55:46 <ehird> but yeah, I can try X11 WMs in an OS X window, that's just awesome
03:56:45 <pikhq> The reason is, of course, because X sucks.
03:57:18 <pikhq> (I mean, really: if you're going to do network transparency, why not make it so that a program can detach from an X server and be attached to a different one later?
03:57:21 <ehird> well, also because it's silly
03:57:28 <ehird> whoa, you trapped me in your parens
03:57:51 <coppro> pikhq: that would be epic
03:59:14 <ehird> coppro: my os would let you migrate the window, but not the computation; the computation, but not the window; and both!
03:59:25 <ehird> also, migrate a pony.
04:02:32 <ehird> (pikhq: WITHOUT A KERNEL)
04:03:18 <ehird> I wonder why people use floating mode for bad programs like gimp
04:03:22 <ehird> instead of just Xnesting
04:38:31 <ehird> stumpwm groups seem a bit of a pain
04:38:35 <ehird> if they are what i think they are
04:38:52 <Sgeo> http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/security/a8bc/ want
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04:39:09 <ehird> thinkgeek redesigned omg no
04:39:57 <Sgeo> ..either that's a genuine comment, even though it doesn't sound like one, or you're sarcastically referring to something that I didn't mention in the first place
04:40:03 <ehird> it isn't ugly, but wtf
04:40:07 <ehird> i loved how it looked
04:44:35 <Sgeo> What is tea doing in a survival kit?
04:47:43 <Sgeo> Ugh, I could easily see myself spending a lot of money on ThinkGeek
04:47:57 <ehird> you can only do that if you have a lot of money
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05:19:47 <ehird> http://blog.pastie.org/2009/03/wtf-i-never-said-im-against-testing-i-just-dont-do-it.html ;; ok, i'm not going to use pastie any more; read the comments
05:20:01 <ehird> summary: "Hahahaha. You're stupid if you don't know why he's wrong. It's oooooooooooobvious."
05:20:10 <ehird> "Testing is magical. Hahahahaha. He's wrong."
05:20:40 <ehird> almost everyone doing "agile" is such an idiot
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05:34:16 <ehird> eh, stumpwm is awesome.
05:41:54 <ehird> http://www.theonion.com/content/news/wikipedia_celebrates_750_years_of
05:45:55 <coppro> haha "While Wikipedia's "American Inderpendance" page remains available to all site visitors, administrators have suspended additions and further edits to its content due to vandalism."
05:56:31 <AnMaster> * ehird decides to write either a window manager or an irc bot. <-- the window manager I assume will be for your future OS? ;P
05:56:57 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm currently on an inverse monophasic schedule.
05:57:13 <ehird> One big ol' block of sleep.
05:57:25 <ehird> The "western" sleep pattern, apart from Spain, where they do biphasic (monophasic + siesta).
05:57:31 <ehird> AnMaster: But I do mine in the day.
05:57:33 <AnMaster> well I woke up about an hour ago
05:57:52 <ehird> So I'm up from, like, 7-10pm and asleep at like 1-4pm.
05:57:55 <ehird> It, uhh, works, for now.
05:58:12 <AnMaster> ehird, when do school start for you?
05:58:26 <ehird> I'm sure I'll figure something out to get my schedule back on track.
05:58:39 <ehird> My body appears to cope.
05:59:15 <AnMaster> ehird, alternatively: So did your mom
05:59:25 <ehird> Oh, that's a good one.
05:59:37 * ehird ponders why emacs' scrollbar is on the left.
05:59:55 <AnMaster> ehird, hm? konsole's terminal is on the right
06:00:05 <ehird> "traditional" terminals; xterm, rxvt, etc
06:00:25 <AnMaster> my xterm has no scrollbar though, never bothered finding out how to turn it on
06:00:33 <ehird> it doesn't by default
06:00:40 <ehird> AnMaster: why use xterm instead of rxvt-unicode?
06:00:48 <ehird> i highly doubt you use any of xterm's 80s features
06:01:32 <ehird> Dear emacs: Yes, I'm on OS X; how astute of you. However, I compiled you FOR GTK. That means I want my X11 meta key, "alt", to be used for that purpose, not the Command key, as you so cleverly inferred based on my platform.
06:01:59 <ehird> I think it's X11 doing that
06:02:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm sure you can add something to ~/.emacs to change it
06:02:08 <ehird> now i gotsa learn xmodmap :-(
06:02:16 <AnMaster> ehird, xmodmap never worked for me
06:02:22 <ehird> AnMaster: did you hear the news? I'm a fan of a tiling window manager. *gasp*
06:02:25 <AnMaster> I use xkb to do the same thing instead
06:02:41 <ehird> Basically, it's ratpoison, BUT
06:02:46 <ehird> (it's the successor)
06:02:46 <ehird> It's written in Common Lisp
06:02:54 <ehird> You can evaluate expressions inside its lisp
06:02:59 <ehird> You can connect to it with emacs and SLIME
06:03:10 <ehird> You can eat out its insides and replace them while it's running
06:03:18 <ehird> It's like a little lisp machine for X11!
06:03:22 <AnMaster> ehird, how does it compare to xmonad?
06:03:29 <ehird> xmonad doesn't do that
06:03:38 <ehird> although it has a plugin thing to do basically that
06:03:50 <ehird> But really, the actual window management is basically identical to ratpoison, except ... more maintained.
06:04:28 <ehird> But god dammit, I can do C-t : (format nil "Hello, ~a!" "world") and get "Hello, world!" back and it's RUNNING IN MY WINDOW MANAGER so I love it.
06:04:53 <ehird> omg Ratpoison changed their logo :(
06:05:00 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/Ratpoison.png ;; old awesome logo
06:05:01 <AnMaster> ehird, remember, it is still X11 beneath it
06:05:04 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Ratpoison_new.png ;; new crappy logo
06:05:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, but I'm going to use Linux/X11 anyway
06:05:24 <AnMaster> ehird, I actually prefer the new one
06:05:39 <ehird> AnMaster: But the old one was AWESOME!
06:05:44 <AnMaster> the former one looks like the person who made it couldn't draw
06:05:44 <ehird> Especially that missing pixel on the tail
06:05:50 <ehird> AnMaster: It's MS Paint chic
06:06:14 <ehird> The new one is far too antialiased and gradienty and polished for ratpoison anyway :P
06:07:35 <ehird> (setq inhibit-start-screen t) ;; I hate you, rms
06:07:56 <ehird> Grr, that doesn't work
06:09:06 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, I can install Lisp packages from my damn window manager
06:09:50 <ehird> *startup, not start
06:09:51 <AnMaster> ehird, it still runs on a system with a kernel!
06:09:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes it does, and fuck that shit.
06:12:21 <ehird> What does X11 think the alt key is called...?
06:12:30 <ehird> I guess Meta on most systems, but I'm trying to rebind mod2 here...
06:12:33 <ehird> Maybe "Opt" or "Option".
06:14:04 <ehird> xmodmap -dfkjdsfhk gives a list of options, which is nice.
06:14:28 <ehird> (generally works with anything but gnu tools)
06:14:43 <ehird> xmodmap -pke gives an unreasonably long list
06:14:55 <ehird> or, I could just scroll :P
06:15:29 <ehird> Hmm, this sleeping pattern is quite nice
06:15:42 <ehird> I get some sort of instinctual kick out of knowing I'm going to be up all night
06:16:07 <ehird> AnMaster: alas, the general vicinity just has metas, shifts and controls
06:16:11 <ehird> along iwth two unlabeled keys
06:16:12 <ehird> HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
06:16:43 <AnMaster> I mean, they are unlabeled for a reason
06:17:14 * ehird is amused that stumpwm comes with a default hotkey that just starts emacs and nothing else
06:17:25 <ehird> It is vitally important you can get to emacs in three keypresses at all times.
06:17:31 <ehird> Two, if you don't count modifiers. :P
06:17:34 <AnMaster> ehird, you don't want anyone to say their names three times
06:17:48 <ehird> AnMaster: Keycode 62 Keycode 62 Keycode 62
06:17:51 <ehird> Keycode 72 Keycode 72 Keycode 72
06:17:59 <AnMaster> I meant their real names of course
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06:18:26 <ehird> did that part message get through?
06:18:34 <AnMaster> * ehird (n=ehird@91.105.65.31) has left #esoteric
06:18:34 <ehird> Anyway, they weren't the right keys :P
06:18:41 <ehird> I did /part #esoteric busy being exploded
06:18:51 <ehird> Isn't there an X application that simply prints out every single keypress it gets?
06:18:57 <ehird> as a keycode w/ symbolic name or whatever
06:19:01 <ehird> would seem to be trivial
06:19:32 <AnMaster> so don't move your mouse either
06:19:56 <ehird> heh, when I start xev my whole screen is white with a small black window border, and then a black border of a white square in the top-left
06:20:02 <ehird> methinks it is designed for less fullscreeny WMs
06:20:16 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, whole window that I'm running xnest with stumpwm in.
06:20:17 <AnMaster> yeah for me it is a small floating window
06:20:26 <AnMaster> ehird, the interesting stuff is printed in the terminal
06:20:26 <ehird> Yes, stumpwm is a *tiling* WM.
06:20:30 <ehird> Although it can do floating windows.
06:20:36 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, I can't see the terminal, can I?
06:20:41 <ehird> unless I split the screen
06:20:45 <ehird> and have it on one side, terminal on the otehr
06:21:11 <ehird> "Mode_switch" is Option.
06:21:37 <ehird> I guess it means "escape"
06:21:44 <ehird> Does X really use escape as meta?
06:21:49 <ehird> I thought that was a terminal relic.
06:22:53 * ehird attempts to figure out how to swap two frames in ratpoison
06:23:23 <AnMaster> KeyPress event, serial 31, synthetic NO, window 0x2800001,
06:23:24 <AnMaster> root 0x1a6, subw 0x0, time 999217048, (314,-142), root:(318,676),
06:23:24 <AnMaster> state 0x0, keycode 9 (keysym 0xff1b, Escape), same_screen YES,
06:24:24 <AnMaster> or, not sure where it says that
06:25:41 <ehird> keycode 66 si option, /me remembers that
06:25:51 <ehird> keycode 63 = Mode_switch
06:25:51 <ehird> keycode 66 = Meta_L
06:25:51 <ehird> add Mod2 = Mode_switch
06:27:15 <ehird> wait, that's the wrong way around
06:27:20 <AnMaster> bbl going to university as soon as I found my umbrella
06:27:23 <ehird> just need to swap the two add lines
06:32:27 <ehird> how do you reset xmodmap
06:36:23 <ehird> http://wikipediavspredator.com/
06:37:10 <ehird> "This could be the most one sided fight since 1973 when Ali faced an eighty-foot tall mechanical Joe Frazier. My memory isn't what it used to be, but I think the entire Earth was destroyed."
06:37:26 <ehird> Poor Frazier never stood a chance.
06:44:00 <ehird> http://imgur.com/LFBWQ.jpg
06:45:47 <ehird> i wonder what happens if it selects predator as the wp article
06:47:24 <ehird> This: http://imgur.com/DXvAL.png
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06:58:32 <ehird> defaults write com.apple.x11 swap_alt_meta -boolean true
06:58:47 <ehird> 'cept it's org.x.x11 nowadays
06:59:39 <ehird> Not that it worked. Sigh.
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07:11:26 <ehird> Wow, X comes with a screensaver.
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08:07:39 <ehird> Perpendicular politics.
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08:36:18 <ehird> "This should not be taken as an argument against same-sex marriage. The model fails to generate the following obvious real-world solution: A, B, and C should all move in together and live in joyous tripartite depravity, and X should jump off a bridge."
08:36:52 <ehird> A placeholder variable! It's about mathematics actually.
08:37:03 <ehird> http://blog.plover.com/math/bipartite-matching.html
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08:50:37 * ehird peeks hopefully at disk utility
08:52:12 <oerjan> disks have no utility. little crystal pyramids are where it's at!
08:53:01 <oerjan> the rumors that people tend to step on them are just evil propaganda!
08:55:55 <ehird> should i install a minimal ubuntu w/ stumpwm yesno
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09:05:49 <ehird> ...people actually use openmoko phones
09:06:34 <oerjan> they do it just to annoy you, ehird
09:06:41 <ehird> i'm just surprised.
09:06:49 <ehird> AnMaster: do you exist?
09:07:19 <oerjan> ooh, the plot thickens
09:07:35 <ehird> FUCKING TELEPHONY!
09:08:00 <oerjan> interesting GNU option
09:08:09 <ehird> IT MAKES YOUR TELEPHONY FUCKING GREEN
09:08:30 <ehird> HAHA WOOPS I BROKE IT
09:08:52 <ehird> you're stocking fupid
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09:12:48 <ehird> oerjan: should i doth it
09:13:21 <oerjan> no, that's ungrammatical
09:13:28 <ehird> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
09:13:29 <ehird> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
09:13:31 <ehird> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
09:13:31 <ehird> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
09:13:52 <oerjan> "doth" is not an infinitive
09:13:54 <ehird> oerjan: you should rejoin agora. it's boring right now.
09:14:05 <ehird> i can use olde english as wrongly as i wisheth
09:14:37 <oerjan> also, that's early modern english </augur>
09:17:04 <ehird> you deftly avoid my command!
09:18:35 <HackEgo> * dexterously: with dexterity; in a dexterous manner; "dextrously he untied the knots" \ * in a deft manner; "Lois deftly removed her scarf" \ [12]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
09:18:44 <ehird> specifically, by pedantry
09:20:10 <oerjan> install the ubuntu, then beat it to death with the stump
09:20:25 <ehird> [09:13] ehird: oerjan: you should rejoin agora. it's boring right now.
09:20:52 <oerjan> oh _that_ was so improbable i just ignored it.
09:21:08 <oerjan> also, i ignore "should"s on principle
09:21:15 <ehird> oerjan: join agora.
09:21:23 * ehird tweaks his improbability drive and produces an infinite improbability d rive
09:22:08 <ehird> * (evaluate-improbability '(:join (:person oerjan) (:game agora)))
09:22:17 <ehird> [Number is too large; string representation omitted.]
09:22:39 <ehird> * (defvar event '(:join (:person oerjan) (:game agora)))
09:22:55 <ehird> * (cause-event :improbability (evaluate-improbability event) :restrain-to event)
09:23:01 <ehird> oerjan: Join Agora.
09:23:17 <ehird> Improbability drive.
09:23:25 <ehird> Newly made infinite, in my case.
09:23:29 <oerjan> i thought it was a lisp variant...
09:23:47 <ehird> No, it's merely very flexible, you know.
09:23:54 <ehird> So you use it with Lisp.
09:24:12 <ehird> oerjan: Anyway, the cosmic variables have been tweaked; it is inevitable that you will join Agora.
09:25:01 <oerjan> but that would mean time is circular, horrible!
09:25:24 <ehird> oerjan: There are more things in nomic and earth than your reason dreams of.
09:25:39 <ehird> You will, in fact, do it as a separate event from every previous instance.
09:25:46 <ehird> Also, soon; I didn't set :time-limit nil.
09:29:06 <ehird> meh, I guess I will write a WM!
09:29:13 <ehird> StumpWM can't do automatic tiling which is getting a little annoying.
09:29:31 <ehird> (Know how I said almost all tiling WMs are dynamic? They aren't. :P)
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09:58:18 <ehird> i have total reverse control over lament.
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09:58:23 <ehird> he will do whatever I tell him to, in the past.
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09:59:08 <ehird> isn't that right lament?
09:59:37 <ehird> say nothing for a while, lament.
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10:00:49 <ehird> I'm telling what lament to do, and he does it in the past.
10:01:17 <ais523> are you cheating by observing what he does, then telling him to do it immediately afterwards?
10:02:03 <ehird> ais523: whatever gave you that idea?!
10:02:07 <ehird> You have an overactive mind.
10:03:57 <ehird> Say nothing for ages, lament.
10:04:06 <ehird> Yep, looks like he obeyed me.
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10:20:34 <ais523> wow, what a pointless spam
10:20:53 <ais523> it said I'd won £500,000, and asked for my name, sex, occupation, and country
10:20:56 <ais523> and didn't say where to send it
10:21:02 <ehird> ais523: in reply, duh
10:21:11 <ais523> you mean those things actually have valid reply addresses?
10:21:22 <ehird> ais523: umm, they don't just ask for your details up front, no
10:21:37 <ehird> reply, it can only waste their time
10:22:08 <ais523> that would only confirm the address as valid
10:22:22 <ais523> I suppose I could just use an invalid from address and send directly from my own computer
10:22:32 <ais523> ehird: I mean, never reply to spam, because it tells them the address you sent from exists
10:22:36 <ais523> and you get a lot more from then on
10:22:44 <ehird> ais523: well, the lottery nigerian types, generally no
10:22:48 <ehird> they're done manually
10:22:56 <ehird> thus, 419 baiting exists
10:23:09 <ehird> it's more the hands-off viagra spam that does that
10:23:25 <ais523> this spam was so short and vague that I can't tell which type it was
10:23:32 <ais523> also, the usual bad grammar
10:23:37 <ais523> "your email address have won..."
10:23:47 <ehird> if you won some money and it wants you to reply, then it's a 419
10:23:53 <ais523> that's an interesting question, actually; /why/ does spam universally have bad grammar?
10:24:07 <ehird> ais523: because the spammers have bad gramamr
10:24:18 <ais523> why would bad grammar be correlated with spamming, though?
10:24:25 <ehird> ais523: third-world economy
10:24:33 <ehird> e.g., a majority of 419s come from Nigeria
10:24:41 <ehird> (thus the origin of their name)
10:25:08 <ais523> yep, 419 is the number of the relevant section in Nigerian law
10:25:26 <ehird> ais523: anyway, a ton of the scammers are actually really rich
10:25:35 <ehird> ais523: perhaps they feign bad grammar to seem more authentically foreign.
10:25:38 <ehird> orrrrrr, they're just dumb.
10:26:00 <ais523> I thought a typical 419 scam worked by trying to arrange a (fake) large transfer of money from one person to another, and offering the scamee a, say, 10% cut of it
10:26:07 <ais523> which of course they never get, as the money never existed in the first place
10:26:21 <ais523> and then just to demand money in the meantime using the traditional scam excuses, such as 'transaction fees'
10:26:52 <ehird> ais523: pretty much
10:27:36 <ais523> whereas the you-have-won scams I'd expect to work less well, as they don't give a plausible reason as to why you're getting the money, or of what the scammer gets out of it
10:28:02 <ehird> you got entered in it by your email company because Segmentation fault
10:28:30 <ehird> (or similar ridiculous excuse; scams prey on the old and stupid... or, well, just the stupid)
10:29:49 <ehird> a: "hey someone screamed and i ignored it"
10:29:49 <ehird> a: "what are the chances it was something terrible happening"
10:29:49 <ehird> b: "two hundred percent"
10:29:49 <ehird> b: "we're in earshot of two terrible things at all times"
10:29:50 <ehird> — http://www.picturesforsadchildren.com/index.php?comicID=285
10:30:09 <ehird> i am pretty sure that is how probability works
10:33:19 <ehird> something about X11 I... actually like
10:33:22 <ehird> ais523: take cover.
10:33:37 <ais523> oh X11 has lots to like, just even more to dislike
10:33:44 <ehird> ais523: nonononono, it doesn't though.
10:33:55 <ehird> i hate pretty much everything about X11 that isn't pretty much vital to having a windowing system.
10:34:02 <ehird> it's very very scary if I like one of it's oddities
10:34:12 <ehird> probability dictates that bad things will happen soon.
10:34:14 <ehird> or at least improbable things.
10:34:15 <ais523> oh, I like the way you can run the server and client separately, I've even done that before but it turned out to be too slow for what we wanted
10:34:21 <ehird> you might get a unicorn before the nuclear holocaust
10:34:55 <ehird> so take cover, or the rabid breed of deadly cat-wasps will eat your brain through your ears before you get your unicorn!
10:37:01 <ehird> ais523: sorry about that black hole that just appeared where you are.
10:37:07 <ehird> this is all my fault. i should never have liked it
10:37:18 <ais523> don't worry, it was rather small and evaporated before it could do any damage
10:37:31 <ehird> ais523: oh, I said that 60 seconds too early
10:37:38 <ehird> ais523: I was talking about the planet-sized one that hasn't come yet
10:37:49 <ais523> if it's planet-sized, it's probably going to affect you as well as me
10:37:58 <ehird> ais523: it is a very clever black hole.
10:39:22 <ehird> was nice knowing you ais523.
10:39:31 <ais523> wow, more developments in SCO vs. Novell
10:40:00 <ehird> ais523: is there something you haven't told us? like about the fact that you're a creepy extra-dimensional being that can use the internet from inside a black hole?
10:40:06 <ehird> that. that might be worth telling us about
10:40:09 <ais523> ehird: actually, the black hole isn't here
10:40:32 <ais523> hmm... it seems that the money that Sun paid SCO is definitely Novell's, that's been affirmed on appeal, and the rest was remanded
10:41:55 <ais523> the remanded issues were because the appeals court thought that they were too complex to be legally decidable by one judge, so they're sending it to a jury trial instead
10:42:27 <ehird> i wonder when someone will ask me what the thing is that i like about X :P
10:42:28 <ais523> oh, and SCO are claiming that as the appeal didn't uphold the verdict, it must be the wrong verdict
10:45:42 <ehird> weep meep gubble pleep!!!!!!!
10:45:48 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection timed out).
10:46:10 <ehird> "YEAhim pretty much ''that person''"
10:47:25 <ais523> oh, and Microsoft asked for a fast-track appeal of the Word case
10:47:43 <ais523> and some judges agreed and gave them until the end of the day to make it
10:47:46 <ais523> now, that's fast-track!
10:48:01 <ehird> huh, a 14" laptop that weighs under 2kg
10:48:02 <ais523> i4i have two weeks to respond to it, though
10:48:06 <ehird> maybe it's made of pixies
10:52:22 <ais523> and SCO have new management, it was forced on them by the bankruptcy court
11:00:47 <ehird> gah, xlib and xcb have non-mapping concepts
11:00:55 <ehird> like xlib display, xcb connection, screen
11:02:59 <ehird> i'm beginning to think xlib is nicer than xcb
11:08:48 <ehird> ais523: do you know of a less ugly way of saying if (!(foo = bar)) in C?
11:08:52 <ehird> those extra parens irk me
11:09:04 <ais523> err, that a deliberate assignment-equals?
11:09:10 <ehird> ais523: um, no shit
11:09:13 <ehird> for checking error codes
11:09:19 <ais523> I'd personally write it "if (!((foo = bar)))"
11:09:24 <ais523> although that's the opposite direction to what you want
11:09:34 <ehird> seriously? why on earth?
11:09:37 <ais523> I've got into the habit of double-parenning assignments in an expression to show they're deliberate
11:09:48 <ais523> and it's an idiom that gcc, at least, understands
11:10:04 <ehird> can i just note here that trying to code readable, I-know-this-is-safe-and-what-it-does code in C is really stupid
11:10:18 <ehird> and an exercise in pointlessness
11:10:33 <ais523> well, it's a drop in the ocean, but really, it's more important in C than elsewhere
11:10:40 <ais523> because it gives your program a hope of being readable years later
11:10:47 <ais523> rather than giving up and knowing for certain it won't be
11:10:57 <ais523> I can still read much of my C and C++ code that I wrote ages ago, for instance
11:10:59 <ehird> ais523: I'm one of those crazy people who *is able to distinguish = from ==*
11:11:11 <ehird> Without (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((hot molten death cases)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
11:11:21 <ehird> hmm, if (!foo = bar) might work
11:11:29 <ehird> I don't think you can assign to a not-lvalue
11:11:38 <ais523> ehird: oh, they're easy enough to distinguish, just you have to wonder if it's deliberate or not
11:11:50 <ehird> I think that's a strawman
11:11:59 <ais523> ehird: attempting to assign to a non-lvalue is a syntax error, rather than redefining precedence so it makes sense
11:12:10 <ehird> logic where it's unclear whether assignment or comparison is meant is... incredibly convoluted logic that needs fixing
11:12:22 <ehird> ais523: I mean that precedence rules might be arranged so such idiotic things don't happen
11:12:42 <ais523> no, in C operator precedence isn't directional, apart from ( and )
11:13:11 * ehird wonders whether for (;;) or while (1) is more popular
11:13:22 <ais523> there's no mathematical reason why operators can't have different precedences for the two sides, but it rather makes a mess of the textbooks
11:13:31 <ais523> and I use for (;;) as it's less likely to annoy lintalikes
11:15:28 * ais523 watches as ehird uses while(1) for the same reason
11:15:37 <ehird> i definitely considered it.
11:15:47 <ehird> while (1) seems purer
11:16:03 <ehird> since for generally implies you're iterating
11:16:11 <ehird> I'd prefer a more expressive conditional construct that lets you just specify no constraints, of course
11:16:23 <ehird> loop (while x == y) {}
11:16:34 <ais523> or MAGENTA's, for that matter
11:16:37 <ehird> loop (for i=0,i<10,i++; while x == y) {}
11:16:54 <ais523> ehird: you've pretty much invented MAGENTA's looping construct there, just with saner syntax
11:17:02 <ehird> ais523: no, I've invented lisp's LOOP.
11:17:05 <ehird> (just with saner syntax)
11:17:14 <ehird> well, lisp's loop is a looooooot more flexible
11:17:40 <ais523> ehird: I think MAGENTA's [insert appropriate time-travelling verb here] most of the INTERCAL operations in too
11:17:46 <ais523> had? will have? will have had? will had had?
11:18:05 <ehird> "will never have but will have had"
11:18:13 <ehird> (in alternate timeline, will have)
11:18:18 <ehird> (in other alternate timeline, has)
11:18:22 <ehird> (in other alternate timeline, has had)
11:18:24 <ehird> (in other alternate timeline, had)
11:18:29 <ehird> basically it means everything.
11:19:14 <ehird> hmm darn never mind
11:19:42 <ehird> loop (for (i = 1; i <= 100; i++); if (!(i % 2))) printf("%i\n", i);
11:19:44 <ehird> voila, is like a magic
11:19:53 <ehird> (I was doing fizzbuzz but realised that involved branching :P)
11:20:08 <ais523> you can do a fizzbuzz without branching
11:20:19 <ehird> stop saying such pointless things
11:20:23 <ehird> it obviously isn't a loop conditional
11:20:26 * ais523 wonders what a Clue fizzbuzz would look like
11:20:44 -!- oklopol has joined.
11:22:22 <ehird> (loop for i from 1 to 100 when (evenp i) do (print i))
11:22:35 <ehird> (loop for i from 1 to 100 by 2 do (print i))
11:22:42 <ehird> (that's actual common lisp code)
11:23:26 <ehird> stupid, more formattedly:
11:23:27 <ehird> (loop for i from 1 to 100
11:23:37 <ehird> (and yes, it's idiomatic)
11:23:52 <ehird> oklopol: stop beeping
11:24:02 <ehird> oklopol: continue beeping, more cogently
11:24:37 <ehird> ais523: feast your eyes on LOOP's syntax: http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/mac_loop.html
11:24:45 <ehird> (way too big to fit on IRC, so don't ask)
11:24:55 <ehird> (also, lightweight page, so no point pastebinning)
11:25:24 <ais523> wow, I'm shocked that anyone would even consider pastebinning a page that was already on the Internet
11:25:40 <ehird> ais523: I was pandering to your crazy anti-webness.
11:25:48 <ehird> You know, the common lisp hyperspec might have viagra ads.
11:26:02 <ehird> Your computer might have to work for upwards of a millisecond to block them, if it's a pentium :P
11:26:13 * ais523 copy-pastes the URL into a browser
11:26:26 <ais523> I haven't clicked on a link for so long, I hadn't realised that it's broken here for some reason...
11:26:52 <ehird> I love how LOOP has built in syntax for introspecting all the variables in a package
11:26:55 <ehird> With options on how to do it
11:27:46 <ehird> oklopol: why are you beeping
11:28:33 <ehird> ais523: do you know a good psych ward.
11:31:14 <ehird> ais523: sort of kinda urgent
11:31:31 <oklopol> beep beep, beep beep beep ->
11:33:12 <oklopol> beep beep, beep beep beep beep; beeeeeeep beep... beep ;)
11:33:30 <ehird> ais523: beep beep beep beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep beep
11:33:35 <ehird> oklopol: beep, beep: bep?
11:33:55 <ehird> oklopol: beep bep beep?
11:34:58 <ehird> [[The TUNES mailing-list is moving!
11:34:58 <ehird> We've created a Google Group for TUNES:
11:34:58 <ehird> http://groups.google.com/group/tunes-project/
11:34:59 <ehird> There is also new life for the TUNES Project. We intend to build some
11:34:59 <ehird> actor system based on PLT Scheme, and do fun stuff on top of it, such
11:34:59 <ehird> as a distributed database.]]
11:35:06 <ehird> that... doesn't sound like an OS
11:35:13 <ais523> ehird: when did they write that?
11:35:13 <ehird> otoh a distributed database sounds sexy.
11:37:03 <oklopol> 13:35 Baughn: JohnFlux: Yeah. It's only missing an "april's fools!" somewhere to make me be sure. <<< beep beep xD :P
11:37:20 <oklopol> (13:34 ais523: the first? <<< beep beep beep beep.)
11:37:31 <ehird> oklopol: where's that from
11:37:59 <ehird> well Baughn, I guess #haskell
11:38:50 <ehird> i am unamused oklopol.
11:39:00 <ehird> oklopol. oklopol stop that. tell me. :|
11:44:28 <ehird> oklopol you suck like something that does.
11:45:01 <ehird> oklopol: it is #math isn't it
11:45:05 <ehird> i have determined that it is math.
11:45:21 <ehird> it could be #physics though
11:45:26 <ehird> but i doubt you're in #physics
11:45:57 <ehird> oklopol: that does not make me happy
11:45:59 <ehird> it does not have logs
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11:49:20 <ehird> oklopol i am the very definition of a pol
11:49:24 <ehird> and you are wasting that in your fury
11:50:56 -!- puzzlet has joined.
11:52:21 -!- Gracenotes_ has changed nick to Gracenotes.
11:55:32 <ehird> Why do people indent the bodies of functions in C etc?
11:55:40 <ehird> It means that pretty much all the code is indented at least one level.
11:55:51 <ais523> to make it easier to find the boundaries between functions
11:56:07 <ehird> That would be when you have a blank line, a declaration, then a line with just a { on it.
11:56:13 <ehird> Pretty hard to miss; besides, can't your editor fold?
11:56:17 -!- Pthing has joined.
11:56:31 <ehird> Also, if you comment your functions at the top it'll be even more noticeable.
11:56:56 <ais523> ehird: I don't see how a folding editor makes it easier to find function boundaries
11:57:10 <ehird> Because... when you fold... all there is is the declarations.
11:57:23 <ais523> ehird: so you'd have to fold, click on the declaration, and unfold again
11:57:33 <ais523> that's not particularly useful when skimming through a long source file
11:57:41 <ehird> I think you're inventing a usecase that doesn't exist
11:57:50 <ais523> ehird: I do it all the time, although in languages other than C
11:57:54 <ehird> ais523: if you skim fast enough, you miss the unindentedl ines
11:58:00 <ais523> and it's really annoying to find that I'm in a different function to what I thought I was
11:58:02 <ehird> if you don't skim fast enough, you can easily see the { on a line of its own
11:58:07 <ehird> and the separating blank line
11:58:13 <ais523> unindented lines are easier to notice because they're touching the margine
11:58:43 <ais523> and you get blank lines all the time, and depending on the indentation conventions used, lone {s as well
11:59:26 <ais523> hmm... Yahoo! mail keeps trying to advertise IE8 at me
11:59:38 <ais523> I clicked the advert to see what would happen, and they said it wasn't available for my platform
11:59:42 <ais523> so, why advertise in the first place?
11:59:50 <ais523> (although they did try to get me to download their toolbar instead)
12:03:47 <ehird> ais523: because microsoft told them to
12:03:51 <ehird> for obvious reasons
12:04:14 <ehird> ais523: anyway, ok, but why a whole tab indent?
12:05:04 <ehird> ok, I think I'm going insane; I can't figure out what style I'm resulting in here :D
12:05:16 <ehird> but i think anything that starts with a space and then goes on to tabs is ... interesting
12:06:34 <ehird> heh, dwm has a macro #define LENGTH(X) (sizeof X / sizeof X[0])
12:06:39 <ehird> that's just evil... I'm stealing it
12:10:23 <ehird> ais523: i apologise arguing for some demented "one-space then tabs" indentation scheme
12:14:03 * ehird embeds the io language in a thing.
12:15:48 <ehird> ais523: I found the worst anarchy golf submission, ever
12:15:49 <ehird> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Hello+OCaml
12:16:02 <ehird> it is restricted to one language, except not
12:16:04 <ehird> and in the language,
12:16:08 <ehird> it has one obvious solution
12:16:10 <ehird> which is also the shortest
12:16:15 <ehird> you'd have to try harder to make it longer
12:27:54 <ehird> ais523: why do people use exit(1) instead of abort()?
12:28:26 <ais523> ehird: to distinguish their exists from auto-aborts elsewhere
12:28:37 <ais523> it's often possible to tell which was used from outside
12:28:44 <ehird> ais523: auto-abort?
12:28:46 <ais523> e.g. abort works via a signal SIGABRT on many UNIXes
12:28:57 <ais523> and on Windows, it exited with code 3 rather than 1, IIRC
12:29:04 <ehird> "Claiming moderate-density FPGAs clocking at 1.5 GHz,"
12:29:08 <ais523> and, e.g. many C++ compilers will abort() if they hit an unhandled exception
12:29:17 <ais523> well, their generated programs will
12:29:19 <ehird> http://www.edn.com/index.asp?layout=blogpostPrint&blog_post_id=1040033304
12:31:34 <ehird> thought: I'd like C more if I could put a typename before a variable usage and have it declare
12:31:44 <ehird> (a generalisation of C99's special case for for)
12:31:53 <ehird> while (!XNextEvent(dpy, &ev))
12:32:01 <ehird> while (!XNextEvent(dpy, &XEvent ev))
12:32:08 <ais523> ehird: what scope would the new variable have?
12:32:20 <ehird> ais523: same semantics as when used in for
12:32:20 <ais523> you could in Algol 68, incidentally, but its scoping rules were really complex as a result
12:32:23 <ehird> so, they'd be identical
12:32:33 <ehird> ais523: also, you could then remove declarations themselve
12:32:35 <ais523> and in for, the semantics is 'the head and body of the for loop'
12:32:44 <ais523> those don't generalise to anything but other looping constructs nad if
12:32:44 <ehird> "XEvent ev;" would be what we now say as "XEvent ev; ev;"
12:32:50 <ehird> and would obviously be optimised out
12:33:02 <ehird> well, function/block scope
12:34:47 -!- Deewiant has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
12:36:34 <ehird> ugh, drawing contexts
12:41:48 <ehird> why doesn't x11 treat button presses as keys?
12:41:51 <ehird> seems like the obvious thing to do
12:44:08 <ehird> #define ITER(x,n) int _##n; typeof(x) n; for (_##n = 0; _##n < ITEMS(x), n = x[_##n]; _##n++)
12:44:09 <ehird> ↑ I can't decide whether this is neato or evil
12:44:51 <ehird> ais523: is ↑ evil?
12:45:42 <ais523> ehird: yes, because C compilers aren't very good with unicode
12:45:54 <ehird> ais523: hur hur hur
12:46:05 <ais523> also, I think that sort of thing's a bad idea
12:46:14 <ais523> especially, the prepending of underscores, that never comes to a good end
12:47:13 <ehird> ais523: I am unlikely to name anything _key
12:47:32 <ais523> you need to remember to only use lowercase variable names, though
12:47:35 <ais523> so as to not end up in compiler namespace
12:47:56 <ehird> ais523: I do that anyway
12:48:03 <ais523> what, use compiler namespace?
12:48:09 <ehird> only use lowercase names
12:48:39 <ehird> ais523: a better criticism is that __typeof__ is gcc only.
12:48:53 <ais523> yes, there are plenty of others too
12:49:09 <ehird> I suppose you think #define ITEMS(x) (sizeof x / sizeof x[0]) is evil too, right? :P
12:52:15 <ehird> well I'm not getting the events I asked for, that's not good
12:52:59 * ehird drops his loops for some magical X-Macros
12:53:07 <ehird> much more appetising!
12:57:57 <ehird> compile time loops, yay
13:14:28 <ehird> i just installed xscreensaver
13:14:41 <ehird> my life, until I die, will henceforth consist of staring at all of these
13:56:25 <AnMaster> I wonder how a user space program can "listen" for new usb devices under linux
13:56:58 <AnMaster> due to wakeups and battery time
13:57:00 <ais523> if you polled slowly enough, it wouldn't be that problematic
13:57:21 <AnMaster> ais523, surely you should be able to subscribe to some sort of event notification
13:57:22 <ais523> put it this way: a typical laptop has tens of wakeups a seocnd
13:57:32 <ais523> whereas, there's no real point in checking more often than about once every five seconds
13:57:41 <AnMaster> ais523, I got mine down to 4-5 per second with wlan off
13:58:21 <AnMaster> ais523, and what about embedded devices?
13:58:51 <ais523> even those have several wakeups a second, or sometimes won't even go to sleep
13:59:12 <ais523> besides, why would they want real-time notification of USB plugins, anyway?
13:59:15 <AnMaster> varies a lot, depending upon application I imagine
14:00:20 <AnMaster> anyway I think a laptop should be able to have a lot less than several wakeups per second
14:00:31 <AnMaster> current software and hardware is just badly designed
14:00:50 <AnMaster> (of course it will be more when you type or use the mouse or such, I mean when idle)
14:02:11 <AnMaster> ais523, also stuff like ntp should be automatically stopped when you aren't connected to a network.
14:02:36 <ais523> this could be an idea for ehird's OS: nothing ever needs to do polling, you can make absolutely anything depend on an event
14:02:37 <AnMaster> becuase, yes of course, some wakeups, like those from ntp, are hard to avoid
14:02:42 <ais523> and it uses no CPU until the event happens
14:02:56 <AnMaster> ais523, a few things in current hardware do need polling though
14:03:07 <AnMaster> but modern hardware seems to need less
14:03:48 <AnMaster> ais523, for example, some modern cd drives has the ability to notify about media being inserted. Traditionally that hasn't been the case.
14:04:48 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and mdns an such should be avoided. At university my laptop wakes up a LOT due to broadcasts from "auto discover" stuff from other computers on the wlan
14:05:34 * AnMaster wonders what "TLB shootdowns" in powertop is
14:06:11 <AnMaster> ais523, and why on earth does gpg-agent and ssh-agent wake up every 20 seconds...
14:06:23 <ais523> linking to a keyserver, I wonder?
14:06:39 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't forward ssh-agent if that is what you mean
14:07:02 <ais523> I mean, downloading new lists of public keys
14:07:06 <AnMaster> and I haven't even used gpg yet this session so there is no data in gpg-agent
14:07:30 <AnMaster> ais523, gpg-agent doesn't do that. It just remembers that you entered the password for the key during a few minutes before auto-locking it again
14:07:56 <ais523> AnMaster: I mean, the other half of it, verifying messages
14:08:08 <ais523> is it linking to public databases of public keys, so that it can tell who the messages are from?
14:08:35 <AnMaster> ais523, well it has nothing to verify atm... so unlikely. Plus does verifying really use gpg-agent?
14:09:00 <AnMaster> ssh-agent wakes up about every 20 seconds, gpg-agents about every 10 seconds
14:10:14 <AnMaster> ais523, btw, how does one disable updatedb under ubuntu?
14:10:50 <ais523> AnMaster: not sure, you could probably remove it from the crontab though
14:11:06 <AnMaster> ais523, the system seems to use anacron, not sure how it works hm
14:11:10 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
14:11:16 -!- puzzlet has joined.
14:11:34 -!- ehird1 has joined.
14:12:00 <ehird1> So, anyone want to help me boot up a different ARM linux on this thingy?
14:12:15 <ehird1> Surely someone this time. :P
14:12:33 <AnMaster> looking at the file in cron.daily:
14:12:36 <AnMaster> chmod -x /usr/bin/updatedb.mlocate
14:13:14 * AnMaster waits for synergy to paste a extra copy of that while he is typing. Ah there it came... backspace...
14:13:17 <ehird1> Eh? Eh? How about you AnMaster?
14:13:27 <AnMaster> really synergy is nice, but the copy-paste sucks
14:13:32 <ais523> AnMaster: why don't you like updatedb?
14:14:10 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't use locate a lot. Last time I used it on any system must have been over a year ago
14:14:30 <ais523> I use locate a lot, mostly aiming for libraries
14:14:40 <ehird1> If you're getting rid of everything you don't need on Ubuntu, you're Royally Missing The Point.
14:14:46 <ehird1> ais523: howsabout you help eh eh
14:15:02 <AnMaster> ehird1, it is actually irritating me, system is slower when it is updating the db...
14:15:15 <AnMaster> so I see it as a usability issue
14:15:31 <ehird1> ais523: err, clarify that question
14:15:40 <AnMaster> ehird1, and where did I say I was getting rid of everything that I didn't need?
14:15:41 <ais523> ehird1: as in, how do you think I can help?
14:15:53 <AnMaster> I just disable those that I actually find irritate me :P
14:15:58 <ehird1> 06:02:36 <ais523> this could be an idea for ehird's OS: nothing ever needs to do polling, you can make absolutely anything depend on an event
14:15:58 <ehird1> of course, at the software layer
14:16:12 <ehird1> my imac bloops to tell me
14:16:17 <ais523> that you just said ehird
14:16:36 <ais523> it gets pretty silly when I'm logged in as both ais523 and ais523_, via different connections
14:16:43 -!- ais523 has changed nick to callforjudgement.
14:16:47 <ehird1> yes, I know why it tells me, I just like it
14:16:56 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
14:16:58 <ehird1> most expensive single-function remote control EVAR
14:17:04 <ehird1> (14:10:56) ehird1: So, anyone want to help me boot up a different ARM linux on this thingy?
14:17:13 <ais523> heh, that reminded me to register my other nicks
14:17:15 <ehird1> in case you didn't realise
14:17:26 <ehird1> I think my best course of action is to make an ARM debian chroot
14:17:29 <ais523> ehird1: yes, and my comment was that I'm not sure how I could help
14:17:47 <ehird1> making the custom boot thingy do my bidding into debian
14:18:04 <AnMaster> ehird1, my point was it shouldn't need to poll stuff at all. Everything should work by "subscribing/listening" to events.
14:18:38 <AnMaster> of course, there would be a few cases where it wouldn't work
14:18:43 <ehird1> AnMaster: that's not how electricity works
14:18:43 <AnMaster> mostly when interfacing hardware
14:18:48 <ehird1> and so that's not how devices work
14:19:03 <AnMaster> ehird1, sure is, devices cause an interrupt which wake up cpu
14:19:11 <AnMaster> which is an event notification
14:19:27 <ehird1> think about, e.g. mice and keyboards
14:19:37 <AnMaster> ehird1, they cause interrupts. Didn't you know?
14:19:41 <ehird1> fundamentally, everything does
14:19:57 <ehird1> AnMaster: You don't know what the word "device" means. Discuss.
14:20:18 <AnMaster> ehird1, well, in this case I guess it means keyboard controller hardware.
14:21:03 <ehird1> Either you don't actually know how keyboards and mice work, or you're ignoring the obvious meaning on opurpose
14:21:04 <AnMaster> ehird1, I'm talking about interrupts on the level OS has to deal with. Not on the level of wlan card listening at the radio signals
14:21:21 <ehird1> ais523: mainly the help I'd need would be (a) setting up a debian chroot system and
14:21:28 <ehird1> (b) getting the boot up code to agree with that
14:21:48 <ehird1> AnMaster: I'm saying that polling systems are common because that's fundamentally How Shit Works
14:23:23 <ehird1> ais523: oh, and fitting it all in 1gb
14:23:34 <AnMaster> ehird1, depends on what layer you are talking about. I agree with you on the low hardware level yes. But I'm talking about the level that would force cpu to poll. As opposed to specialised circuits on the board waking up the cpu by interrupts when they find something by polling.
14:23:37 <ehird1> although i have a flash card slot for 1gb of temp storage, I don't think the booter will boot into that
14:24:12 <ehird1> AnMaster: humans model higher layers basewd on how the lower layers work
14:24:24 <ehird1> that's why we have the notion of "program", for instance
14:24:28 <AnMaster> ehird1, well see the examples of cd drives I gave above when I talked to ais
14:24:37 <ehird1> it's an internal taskswitching data strujcture, exopsewd as a concept
14:24:51 <ehird1> AnMaster: you're not listening to me
14:24:56 <ehird1> I am not justifying it, ffs
14:25:28 <AnMaster> ehird1, it sounded like you were justifying it to me. But ok then.
14:25:55 <ehird1> Humans tend to model higher layers basewd on the internal details of the lower layers
14:26:15 <ehird1> Examples: "program" - internal task switching structure; "polling" - internal electronics model
14:26:20 <AnMaster> Anyway you can avoid polling in a lot of cases. Certainly you can avoid it when it is different parts of the software that are interacting (instead of hardware and software interacting)
14:26:36 <ehird1> do you delight in pointing out the obvious
14:26:54 <ehird1> i mean i didn't retalise this was #three-year-olds
14:26:56 <AnMaster> ehird1, well. Looking at powertop output it seems it isn't obvious to a lot of people :/
14:27:48 <ehird1> I think if you asked the authors why they did a polling model, they'd almost certainly have a cogent and reasoned justification of it.
14:28:03 <ehird1> Generally, maintainers of core linux infrastructure aren't *idiots*.
14:29:30 <AnMaster> why for example is gnome-panel waking up every other second? And what about update-notifier? update-notifier is the thing that displays notifications in gnome iirc. A good design for it: listen on some socket/dbus thing/whatever, wake up when you get a new message. I mean there is even system calls like select(), poll(), epoll() and so on for it...
14:29:39 <ehird1> So, uhh, ANYONE want to volunteer to help? :P (unless I count ais523's query into the nature of the help as implicit agreement... which is admittedly tempting()
14:29:49 <ehird1> AnMaster: read my last message.
14:30:05 <ehird1> also the one before that.
14:31:07 <ehird1> I'm not likely to click many links on this thing unless they're e.g. pastebins; it is a rather anemic machine and is running the uber-slow Firefox.
14:31:22 <AnMaster> http://www.lesswatts.org/projects/powertop/known.php#knotify http://www.lesswatts.org/projects/powertop/known.php#mixer <-- two examples
14:31:29 <ehird1> ...but if you help me get a better linux on this that I can install a webkit browser from, why, I'll click a billion!
14:31:34 <AnMaster> turned out it wasn't a very good reason in several of the cases at least
14:32:16 <ehird1> Hahaha, this isn't the X200!
14:32:20 <ehird1> This is the root netbook thingy.
14:32:40 <ehird1> The X200, which I haven't bought yet, is as sturdy and powerful as any ThinkPad.
14:32:57 <AnMaster> ehird1, btw, lesswatts looks like a quite light page to me. Can't guarantee that your notebook will handle it of course
14:33:03 <AnMaster> but pastebin.ca is definitely heavier
14:33:17 <ehird1> Notebook is pushing it; one it works on my lap, two it's slower than my phone.
14:33:42 <AnMaster> ehird1, since it sometimes pastebin.ca bogs down konq, while lesswatts could best be described as snappy
14:33:48 <ehird1> (Well, okay, it has the same RAM as my phone and a slightly faster CPU. But my phone has a bigger disk and does shit a lot quicker, due to the OS being designed for that.)
14:34:12 <ehird1> Mmf. My battery is low. Where is the cord?
14:34:28 <ehird1> (I COULD JUST USE AUGUR'S HUR HUR)
14:34:44 <AnMaster> ehird1, how long does the battery last
14:34:47 <ehird1> will such jokes ever get old?
14:34:52 <ehird1> AnMaster: like 3hrs on full charge.
14:34:54 <AnMaster> ehird1, yes, it is already old
14:35:12 <ehird1> otoh it only weighs 700 grams
14:35:32 <ehird1> ok, power cord is ridiculously short
14:36:39 <AnMaster> ehird1, oh btw, power cord of my thinkpad is quite short. well depends on what you compare to. But here I'm comparing to the distance between one of the nice sofas at uni and the closest power socket
14:37:10 <ehird1> Connected it. It is strained a little.
14:37:13 <AnMaster> or rather, the socket on the laptop is on the wrong side for that. Should be on the right side, but is on the left
14:37:32 <ehird1> AnMaster: not a problem for me; it'll charge overnight
14:37:42 <ehird1> who wants to do some chrootin' bzns w/ me
14:37:54 <ehird1> new, unexplored platforms of wonder and delight! LINUX!
14:38:15 <AnMaster> I could help set up gentoo in a chroot
14:38:27 <ehird1> AnMaster: does gentoo support arm
14:38:38 <AnMaster> ehird1, think so. Not 100% sure. *looks*
14:38:42 <ehird1> AnMaster: if yes, does it support not taking 5 weeks to install on a 500mhz arm
14:38:46 <ehird1> ^ that's the important bit
14:39:03 <ehird1> and 500mb to start with
14:39:09 <ehird1> since we're chrooting and the old distro is still there
14:39:26 <AnMaster> /usr/portage/profiles/default/linux/arm/ exists, so yes
14:39:38 <AnMaster> ehird1, depends on what you wants
14:39:55 <AnMaster> ehird1, and why not cross compile with distcc!
14:39:57 <ehird1> AnMaster: like, ratpoison.
14:40:05 <ehird1> also, because I'm sitting here, dammit'
14:40:13 <AnMaster> ehird1, well ssh to your desktop?
14:40:35 <ehird1> AnMaster: I don't know if ssh is set up on there; anyway, I'd like something in an hour or two
14:40:54 <ehird1> how about ais523 can be the resident debian unexpert
14:41:04 <ehird1> and AnMaster can be the resident ubisurfer bootup unexpert
14:41:11 <ehird1> and I can be the typing keys unexpert
14:41:21 <ehird1> oh, don't forget trackpad moving and clicking!!!
14:41:22 <AnMaster> ehird1, well I'm certainly no debian expert. And I haven't ever seen an ubisurfer
14:41:39 <ehird1> also, almost nobody has
14:41:41 <AnMaster> ehird1, how does it boot then?
14:41:49 <ehird1> it's an obscure ubercheap product
14:42:05 <ehird1> AnMaster: it's ARM and has no facility to boot via any other media that I know
14:42:18 <ehird1> I know it has a /linuxrc binary, for one
14:42:27 <ehird1> also, booting up is just a splash screen, then linux starts
14:42:36 <AnMaster> you mean you are running from a initramfs?
14:43:03 <ehird1> there's only 128MB to go around
14:43:06 <AnMaster> ehird1, well /linuxrc is for initramfs or initrd, forgot which
14:43:24 <AnMaster> could be some weird setup I guess
14:43:28 <ehird1> ok, there's an /selinux, somehow i doubt that is usewd
14:43:36 <AnMaster> ehird1, what distro does it run atm?
14:43:38 <ehird1> prolly this thing was debian in a past life
14:44:36 <AnMaster> ehird1, is there a command called lsb_release (far from all distros have that but worth a try)
14:44:42 <ehird1> what is the shortcut to copy from xterm
14:44:56 <ehird1> AnMaster: this thing uses busybox and runs on 1gb flash, so, no
14:44:57 <AnMaster> ehird1, select text, paste with middle mouse button elsewhere?
14:45:10 <ehird1> I want the thing whose inverse is ctrl-shift-insert
14:45:13 <AnMaster> ehird1, whops. What browser then?
14:45:45 <AnMaster> ehird1, I *always* copy by selecting and paste with middle mouse button
14:46:04 <AnMaster> ehird1, well I assume a netbook would have a browser. Like firefox, opera or whatever
14:46:27 <AnMaster> possibly this is a pure telnetbook? ;P
14:46:29 <ehird1> Sure, it has the unholy abomination of GPRS-based compressed IE proxy etc etc
14:47:04 <ehird1> But I just want to copy this
14:47:05 <AnMaster> ehird1, lets see how else we could detect debian... /etc/alternatives?
14:47:22 <ehird1> It calls its browser iceweasel and uses its icon
14:47:26 <AnMaster> hm right, but other distros use iceweasel too iirc
14:47:40 <AnMaster> ehird1, pretty sure arch linux did for a while at least
14:47:41 <ehird1> Now tell me the damn copy command :P
14:47:59 <AnMaster> ehird1, I don't know of any way except select and middle mouse button. Sorry
14:48:19 <ehird1> google for me? I would, but uhh, 500mhz arm + firefox
14:48:29 <AnMaster> well you could right click and select copy in konsole. but xterm hm
14:48:44 <AnMaster> ehird1, promise you will do that at least 20000 times for me?
14:48:54 <ehird1> Incidentally, cpu usage is 100% For doing audacious things like looking at pidgin and scrolling in firefox
14:49:17 <ais523> heh, it would be funny if top used 100% CPU
14:49:23 <ais523> it would rather defeat the half point of it
14:49:37 <ehird1> ais523: just subtract 100 from the total, duh
14:50:25 <AnMaster> ehird1, all ways I can find with google refers to middle click
14:50:34 <AnMaster> ehird1, try both left and right at once
14:50:40 <AnMaster> maybe it emulates middle click
14:51:22 <ehird1> um, does this thing come with a text editor I wonder
14:51:26 <ehird1> fuck it, I'll use abiword
14:51:44 <AnMaster> ehird1, I found some page mentioning a patch to make it use the ctrl-c/ctrl-v style copy/paste buffer
14:51:48 <ehird1> reassuring; abiword doesn't start from the command line
14:51:51 <AnMaster> rather than the selection buffer
14:51:59 * ehird1 uses the menu, it works
14:52:03 <ehird1> i shudder to think what the menu item does
14:52:21 <AnMaster> ehird1, is it gnome, or something else?
14:52:54 <ehird1> If you paid attention in class, you'd have noticed that a dfew lines ago, I said it was icewm
14:53:01 <ehird1> Funnily enough, it has not changed in the interim
14:53:12 <AnMaster> ehird1, oh sorry, I was bussy googling for you
14:53:47 <ehird1> (14:10:56) ehird1: So, anyone want to help me boot up a different ARM linux on this thingy?
14:54:09 <ehird1> Linux pocketsurfer 2.6.21.5-cfs-v19 #342 Wed Jul 29 17:53:42 EDT 2009 armv5tejl unknown
14:54:30 <ehird1> (It doesn't actually have a hardware clock; I manually set it)
14:54:42 <ehird1> (Supposedly beforehand it was 1st jan 1970)
14:54:46 <AnMaster> completely fair scheduler? But isn't that standard since ages
14:54:50 <ehird1> (This kind of broke certificates.)
14:55:11 -!- impomatic has joined.
14:57:57 <ehird1> GREAT< MY CAPS LOCK IS ON WHETHER I HIT THE KEY OR NOT
14:57:57 <ehird1> DESPITE THE INDICATOR CHANGING oh wait it was just holding down shift, if i press shift it stops heh
14:58:17 <AnMaster> ehird1, you forgot your finger was on shift?
14:58:20 <ehird1> any kind soul want to find a link to some sort of debian arm page?
14:58:27 <ehird1> AnMaster: no, the keyboard forgot it wasn't.
14:59:04 <AnMaster> ehird1, so are you prepared to say sorry for everything you said? ;P
14:59:21 <ehird1> what, everything ever?
14:59:28 <ehird1> including that thing about the goat?
14:59:30 <AnMaster> ehird1, everything negative about me.
14:59:35 <ehird1> That goat was a nasty little bitch
14:59:44 <ehird1> AnMaster: The goat was a previous life of you, I'm sure
14:59:52 * AnMaster closes the debian arm port page
15:00:39 <ehird1> AnMaster: Why were you such a dick as a goat, just answer me that
15:01:06 <AnMaster> ehird1, I'm afraid you confused me with someone else there.
15:01:18 <ehird1> does that count as nwegative
15:01:19 <AnMaster> ehird1, that goat was clearly my evil twin
15:01:52 <AnMaster> well, I never been a goat as far as I know so can't answer that
15:02:04 <AnMaster> <ehird1> does that count as nwegative <-- no idea about "nwegative"
15:02:42 -!- impomatic has quit ("mov.i #1,1").
15:02:44 <ehird1> jsndjkasndjksndkjasndkjnasdknaskjdnjkndkasnjknfjksdnf
15:03:25 <ehird1> could i just kinda have a link plz :P
15:04:08 <AnMaster> ehird1, plus even on that slow computer, googling would have been faster.
15:04:41 <AnMaster> ehird1, but seriously, you seem to be so rude most of the time I see no reason to help you.
15:05:06 <ehird1> you're just trying to drag this on :P
15:05:09 <AnMaster> not right now indeed, when you want help, but yesterday for example, and quite a few times before then
15:05:29 <ehird1> btw, I'm not rude, I'm honest.
15:06:14 <ehird1> Oh, snayou know what I bet it's debian.org/ports/arm
15:06:18 <ehird1> http://debian.org/ports/arm
15:06:27 <ehird1> i dont have clickable urls
15:06:41 <AnMaster> ehird1, no idea, closed browser several minutes ago. but it was on debian.org iirc
15:07:02 <AnMaster> ehird1, how long would it take to type that url into the browser then? *shrug*
15:07:03 <ehird1> also why are you helping
15:07:15 <ehird1> AnMaster: i have copy paste tho
15:07:57 <AnMaster> ehird1, helping? You mean saying on debian.org? Well I said I had the official page for the port open, about half a screen above...
15:08:05 <ehird1> ugh, that has no release links
15:08:07 <AnMaster> so, where else than debian.org?
15:08:18 <ehird1> maybe there's a #debian-arm
15:08:38 <AnMaster> ehird1, you seem to be a slow typer on that netbook as well...
15:08:43 <ehird1> (15:07:23) You have been kicked by ChanServ: (Invite only channel)
15:08:52 <ehird1> AnMaster: keyboard is woefully small, and keys are oddly placed.
15:09:04 <AnMaster> ehird1, debian is on oftc iirc?
15:09:14 <AnMaster> moved from freenode some year ago or so
15:09:18 <ehird1> #debian exists here, arm might be skdjfhskfhksjfsdkjfskdjsdkfsf i'll just do it myself
15:09:53 <AnMaster> so well yeah it would explain things
15:10:26 <ehird1> "Setting up a Debian chroot under Red Hat"
15:11:20 <ehird1> debootstrap is x86 only i bet
15:13:19 <ehird1> hmm, debootstrap needs binutils? prolly just for ar
15:14:06 <AnMaster> ehird1, what cpu does iphone use?
15:14:18 <ehird1> architecture all? guess its a shell script
15:16:53 <AnMaster> ehird1, oh? I thought you said busybox
15:18:44 <ehird1> grrr, it either wants perl or a c file compiled
15:18:49 <ehird1> maybe debian has a package
15:22:36 <ehird1> i have make but not gcc
15:24:48 <AnMaster> ehird1, what about groff or troff?
15:24:58 * ehird1 reads the man page with vi
15:29:51 <ehird1> who wants to help me rewrite some perl in shell :P
15:30:19 <ais523> ehird1: perl - << EOF?
15:30:32 <ehird1> ais523: on a machine that does not have perl.
15:31:14 <ehird1> anyone on a system with easy cross compilers?
15:31:29 <ehird1> I gots myself a single source file here that could use some static compilation :P
15:31:30 <ais523> ehird1: if something's set up properly with auto-tools, I have an ARM toolchain here
15:31:37 <AnMaster> ehird1, gentoo, if you are prepared to wait while it builds
15:31:42 <ais523> that has built C-INTERCAL without issue
15:31:49 <ehird1> AnMaster: ais523 beat you with INSTANTLY
15:32:07 <AnMaster> ehird1, because he had one ready
15:32:18 <AnMaster> which I wouldn't have done anyway
15:32:30 <ehird1> https://sources.bit.nl/viewvc.cgi/bit-pxe/linux/debootstrap/pkgdetails.c?view=log should be basically recent enough, ais523
15:32:42 <ehird1> a static compiled ARM ELF of that should work, if it works on ubuntu
15:32:46 <ehird1> since i have debian here
15:32:54 <ehird1> thanks if you do do it
15:33:06 <AnMaster> ehird1, first write Makefile.am and configure.ac!
15:33:08 <ais523> first, I have to remember where the toolchain actually is
15:33:14 <ais523> it's something like 8 levels deep in my directory structure
15:33:48 <ais523> what's the gcc option for static compile?
15:35:29 <ais523> ehird1: it compiled, I think
15:35:47 <ais523> a.out: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, ARM, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, not stripped
15:36:19 <ais523> and here it is: http://filebin.ca/uvwnk/a.out
15:37:19 <ais523> doesn't get much smaller if I strip it
15:37:26 <ais523> also, I suspect it's linked against uclibc
15:37:34 <ais523> not that that really matters, probably
15:37:57 <ais523> but it's a lot larger than I expected
15:38:42 <ehird1> 3.5mb wouldn't be; i only have about 500 of those things spare
15:39:51 <ehird1> now how to get that url into oh ill just we bbrowse it
15:42:31 <ehird1> fun fact; there's an ethernet port but it does nothing
15:42:37 <ehird1> I'm not entirely sure it has ethernet drivers
15:42:55 <ehird1> ais523: your binary runs1
15:43:09 <ais523> ehird1: well, I know it's capable of working
15:43:17 <ais523> but the buildchain for /that/ buildchain was a rather tenuous one
15:43:35 <ais523> it consisted of makefiles which downloaded things, including other makefiles, with wget
15:43:39 <ais523> and the dependencies were all wrong
15:43:52 <ehird1> it's not like all ARMs are teh same
15:44:04 <ais523> I had a little shellscript that invoked the relevant bits in the right order, deleting things if necessary
15:44:06 <ehird1> woot, debootstrap --help works
15:44:13 <ais523> also, that gcc was built as 'arm-linux-gcc'
15:44:20 <ais523> without specifying what version of arm
15:44:25 <ais523> (or of linux fwiw, but that's less important)
15:44:48 <ais523> so my guess is, it's designed to port to as many arms as possible
15:45:27 -!- sebbu has joined.
15:45:51 <ais523> maybe I should send you an ARM build of C-INTERCAL, to see if it works there?
15:47:09 <ehird1> how about after I've replaced this carp with debian?
15:48:23 <ehird1> ais523: and then I can just sudo apt-get install intercal ;-)
15:48:42 <ais523> that wouldn't be cross-compiled, though
15:48:47 <ais523> it'd have been built on native ARM
15:49:16 <ehird1> anyway, it's working out dependencies at the moment
15:49:23 <ehird1> so this seems quite working
15:49:27 <ehird1> which is a pleasent surprising
15:50:40 <ais523> is this the incredulous feeling you have when you do something complicated involving build processes and it just works first time?
15:51:01 <ehird1> yes, although it hasn't actually done anything platform-specific yet
15:51:13 <ehird1> aprat from download the arm packages
15:52:34 <ehird1> "Jesus fucking Christ with this arcane academic toy language bullshit" //- someone tell all the embedded folk to sotp using forth
15:52:38 <ehird1> it's a toy language turns out
15:52:48 <ehird1> woot, it''s downlaoding packagis
15:53:55 <ehird1> yes, forth's is (a) being a toy language, (b) being in a shit ton of embedded devices and (c) being usewd in nasa flight control software
15:54:06 <ehird1> but mainly (a), if you go by reddit commentors
15:54:24 <ais523> I suppose some langs are better toy langs than others, as well as being practical
15:54:46 <ehird1> it's obvious that toy language was meant as a childish insult in conte
15:55:39 <AnMaster> ais523, did you intentionally misunderstand what ehird1 said there? XD
15:55:53 <ais523> no, I'm just trying to think about the problem in an unusual way
15:56:07 <ais523> although, it would be more fun if NASA wrote their flight control software in INTERCAL
15:56:24 <ehird1> that'd be a good way to cut government spending
15:56:41 <ehird1> first off, a lot more failures -> less launches
15:56:49 <ehird1> secondly, every astronaut chickening out -> extra $$$
15:56:57 <ehird1> then, just slash the excess budget!
15:57:16 <ehird1> et voila! now we can afford the stimulus. :P
15:58:27 <ehird1> AnMaster: how's your rock this time olf year
15:58:40 <ehird1> might wanna uh, crawl out?
15:58:45 <AnMaster> ehird1, err. is that innuendo?
15:59:18 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Connection timed out).
15:59:20 <ehird1> yes, AnMaster. economic innuendo.
15:59:39 <ehird1> after all we can't go around with excess innuenSHOT
15:59:50 <ehird1> AnMaster: the one you live under
16:00:19 <ehird1> it's extracting allt he packages, neato
16:01:01 <ehird1> you live under a rock.
16:01:38 <AnMaster> ehird1, well, I guess you could say that when the moon is right above...
16:02:04 <ehird1> does chroot inherit net connections?
16:02:36 <AnMaster> ehird1, your question doesn't make sense.
16:02:48 <AnMaster> ehird1, connections are connected to the programs that opened the sockets
16:02:52 <ehird1> answer the one i should have asked, then
16:03:00 <AnMaster> ehird1, do you mean network settings?
16:03:01 <ehird1> that is not what a net connection means
16:03:09 <AnMaster> copy resolve.conf if you want dns to work in the chroot
16:03:35 <ais523> ehird1: if you meen a pre-existing connection, I think you can pass one into a chroot if it's on an open descriptor when the chroot is created
16:03:44 <ais523> although it won't have a sensible filename, just a number
16:03:58 <ehird1> i wonder how easy it'll be to merge the chroot with the vital stuff from the existing system
16:04:04 <AnMaster> ehird1, but that is not "inherit"
16:04:09 <ehird1> to produce a hideous chimera of debian and fucked up debian
16:04:24 <AnMaster> ais523, since chroot() doesn't cause fork
16:05:01 <ehird1> installing core packages, woop woop
16:05:06 <ehird1> it's all working and shiznit
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16:10:07 <ehird1> AnMaster: you like eizo displays right
16:10:42 <AnMaster> ehird1, hm? I don't bother about which brand it is. Just if the monitor is good or not
16:11:14 <AnMaster> ehird1, and seriously, no current monitor gets even close to the results you can get by printing. Sad but true
16:11:14 <ehird1> i sseem to remember you saying that they were the officially defined standard post for the others
16:11:17 <ehird1> like, in some standard
16:11:44 <ehird1> AnMaster: I dunno man, H-IPS with that filter thing and automatic colour calibration must come pretty damn close
16:12:10 <AnMaster> and of course, manual engraving and other simular technologies can get a DPI which is way way higher than anything a printer can manage
16:12:20 <AnMaster> ehird1, it isn't only colours and such
16:12:31 <ehird1> yeah, dpi is a problem
16:12:44 <AnMaster> ehird1, colours is a worse problem though
16:12:48 <ehird1> eizo has like a 130dpi display iirc, which is depressingly close to the top
16:12:51 <ehird1> some laptops have 150dpi
16:12:58 <ehird1> ofc those ibm ones have lots of dpi
16:13:09 <ehird1> but perhaps not quite as good ips
16:13:21 <ehird1> a 600dpi display would be bliss
16:13:42 <AnMaster> ehird1, also what I think I said was that NEC monitors are very often used for reference monitors in tests. Guess you could say that is a de facto standard
16:13:47 <ehird1> ...i type from an uber-cheap shitty matte TN 7" display with god0awful colours :)
16:13:56 <ehird1> AnMaster: no, I definitely read eizo
16:14:03 <ehird1> they make the standard or something
16:14:16 <AnMaster> ehird1, iirc eizo make some very good ones too. But I don't think I said that about standard
16:14:22 <ehird1> thought you said it, oh well
16:14:35 <ehird1> the top eizo ones are like $6,000
16:14:38 <AnMaster> ehird1, I want a monitor able to produce any pantone colour. Of course that won't ever be possible
16:14:46 <AnMaster> since that includes glossy/matte and such
16:14:56 <ehird1> Do you really want to commit to "ever"
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16:15:11 <ehird1> I can imagine a display that can do both glossy and matte
16:15:33 <ehird1> Sure, why not, just come up with a metal display
16:15:35 <AnMaster> ehird1, like a shiny golden surface that actually looks like gold
16:15:37 <ehird1> and add it as another layer
16:15:50 <ehird1> Nothing ridiculously sci-fi, I imagine
16:16:29 <ehird1> AnMaster: consider that I think it's possible to make a computer where you can create a glass table, touch it, feel it, and feel it cold
16:16:33 <AnMaster> ehird1, and the range. utter black and intense white. Next to each other. With no bleed over
16:16:33 <ehird1> (through peltier and other stuff)
16:16:51 <ehird1> AnMaster: uhh, you can do that in print?
16:16:54 <AnMaster> not like looking directly into the sun, that would be, err useless
16:16:56 <ehird1> I wanna see this magical glowing whiteness
16:17:16 <ehird1> isn't pantone for print
16:17:18 <AnMaster> I was talking about my wishes for monitors in general.
16:17:32 <ehird1> I think monitors, long-term, suck
16:17:35 <AnMaster> ehird1, yes indeed. But pantone is one item in the list. Good light levels is another
16:17:42 <ehird1> by the itme we can do the stuf you want, we should be using VR
16:17:53 <ehird1> there's at hign recently, put something on your lips
16:18:00 <ehird1> it sends signals to youir brain
16:18:09 <ehird1> experimental thing like for people who are blind
16:18:12 <ehird1> read it on engadget recently
16:18:19 <ehird1> shit like that has way morpotential than displays
16:18:37 <AnMaster> ehird1, anyway, you can't just produce some colours on monitors. I want a very wide gamut monitor, with enough bits per pixel to make it usable for small gamuts too (otherwise you loose details)
16:18:43 <ais523> ehird1: it's about 5x6 pixels, but apparently that was enough to let blind people see again (albeit poorly)
16:18:44 <AnMaster> so maybe 32 bits per channel per pixel?
16:19:00 <AnMaster> but definitely 16 bits per pixel at least
16:19:08 <ais523> AnMaster: I can't even tell 16bpp from 24bpp
16:19:15 <ais523> that's bits per pixel, not bits per channel per pixel
16:19:18 <AnMaster> ais523, not with a small gamut duh
16:19:27 <AnMaster> I meant, for wide gamut monitors
16:19:36 <ais523> and if you're going for large gamuts, go for all the dimensions of colour
16:19:41 <AnMaster> like, Adobe RGB Wide Gamut or something
16:19:45 <ais523> as well as emission, have specular and diffuse reflection too, and shininess
16:19:58 <ais523> so you can make part of the screen mirrored, and another half scatter ambient red light but glow blue
16:20:18 <AnMaster> <ais523> as well as emission, have specular and diffuse reflection too, and shininess <-- mentioned above. Search for "pantone"
16:21:11 <ais523> yep, pantone only does about 2 or 3 channels, you need about 10 to properly describe colour to the precision with which humans see it
16:21:16 <ais523> and more still if going for other sorts of vision
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16:35:49 <ehird1> it installed the base system
16:37:10 <ehird1> NO NEED TO COPY resolv.conf theya re the same
16:38:47 <ais523> but I don't actually really know what it means
16:38:56 <ais523> seems to be a common celebration, though
16:38:57 <ehird1> ais523: "yay" but stronger
16:39:09 <ehird1> it originally came from "wow, loot" or something in some game apparently
16:39:22 <ais523> oh, there are lots of conflicting stories of where it comes from
16:39:52 <oklopol> we owned the other team is what i've heard
16:40:30 <Deewiant> "Whoot" was originally more common, I think, so I doubt that one
16:40:33 <ehird1> the other team is the team of not having debian work
16:42:02 <Deewiant> Whenever I first started hearing wh?(oo|00)t
16:42:29 <ehird1> i'm amazed how simple that wAS
16:42:32 <oklopol> okay that was ages before i even had good internets
16:43:01 <ehird1> "apt-get update" works
16:43:13 <oklopol> we have owned the other team
16:43:16 <ehird1> basically i just need to make sure the hardware will work, then drop this into the above system
16:43:25 <ehird1> keeping the bootup code etc
16:43:26 <oklopol> that would be pretty catchy
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16:43:52 <ehird1> we're doing stuff with arm
16:43:57 <ehird1> oklopol: i was jus tabout to say XD
16:44:06 <ehird1> right after greg joined
16:44:11 <ehird1> oklopol: why did you start
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16:44:39 <ehird1> caveat: the internet in the debian is slow for some reason
16:44:41 <oklopol> i was reading computational geometry, and i suddenly felt like i was a wave
16:45:27 <oklopol> i think i almost fell asleep, tend to get all kindsa weird feelings then
16:45:33 <ehird1> gawd so slow, is it the us mirror maybe
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16:47:49 <ehird1> GregorR-L: I've installed a debian chroot inside a mangled debian that runs X11 as root
16:47:54 <ehird1> and it worked first time
16:47:58 <ehird1> (this is on ARM, naturally)
16:48:13 <GregorR-L> I don't see why it wouldn't *shrugs*
16:48:41 <ehird1> GregorR-L: you know how it is with el cheapo devices running funky platforms
16:48:58 <ehird1> anyway, next I'll extract the system replacing its parent
16:49:01 <ehird1> but keeping the bootup code
16:49:25 <ehird1> ais523: could you look up the address of the debian mirrorservice mirror? sorry... firefoxv is just painful here
16:49:26 <GregorR-L> Then just keep doing that over and over again.
16:49:36 <ehird1> and kinda chicken-and-egg to install w3m
16:49:45 <ehird1> GregorR-L: Xzibit? Is that you?
16:49:56 <GregorR-L> ..........................????????????????
16:50:22 <GregorR-L> ..........................????????????????
16:50:32 <ais523> http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/ftp.debian.org/debian/
16:50:35 <ehird1> GregorR-L: crawl out frolm under that rock
16:50:44 <ais523> but that seems to be a page about it
16:50:54 <ais523> I can't find the actual entry to give to apt
16:51:19 <ais523> ah, http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/ftp.debian.org/debian/sources.list.sample.ukms.txt has the required sources.list entries
16:51:21 <ehird1> presumably a subdomain of mirroresrcviceo.org
16:51:31 <ehird1> ais523: could you copy theo ne for lenny main?
16:52:16 <ais523> "deb ftp://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/ftp.debian.org/debian/ sarge main non-free contrib" is the example, I suspect replacing sarge with lenny works
16:52:26 <ais523> that doesn't include the volatile or security repos, though
16:52:53 <ais523> it seems people have forgotten what the www is for
16:53:02 <ehird1> for machines,a ctually
16:53:06 <ehird1> it makes sense to have one machine for web and ftp
16:53:12 <ehird1> but really, it's all pointless nowadays
16:53:12 <ais523> "deb ftp://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/security.debian.org/ sarge/updates main contrib non-free" should probably also be in the sources.list
16:53:16 <ais523> to get security updates
16:53:21 <ehird1> ais523: all debootstrap does is main
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16:53:41 <ais523> volatile's for stuff like virus scanners, you probably don't care about it
16:54:14 <ais523> yes, it's things that are updated every few days
16:54:30 <ais523> isn't clamav updated multiple times a day?
16:54:46 <ehird1> i wonder why the net in the chroot is so slow
16:54:56 -!- Gracenotes_ has changed nick to Gracenotes.
16:55:55 <ehird1> aaaaaand its uber slow again
16:56:16 <ehird1> but the red network thingy in my bottom right is maxed out
16:56:20 <ehird1> so the host is having the same problemn
16:57:10 <ehird1> methinks installign sudo and making a user for myself is the best next step
16:57:23 <AnMaster> heh... I clicked "log out", got "You have been automatically logged out due to inactivity, please log in again to proceed" XD
16:57:41 <ehird1> bet they didn't think of that race condition
16:58:04 <ehird1> just goes to show why software is utterly impossible to make :)
16:58:20 <ais523> just make log out succeed even if not logged in
16:58:22 <AnMaster> ehird1, so why is everyone trying so hard? Would it be better to give up?
16:58:47 <ehird1> no, computers have great potential.
16:59:08 <ehird1> we just need to give up our rabid devotion to backwards compatibility
16:59:22 <ehird1> like 80% of the work in computing caters to the 20% of dinosaurs
16:59:24 <AnMaster> what is interesting is that it special-cased "logged out due to inactivity" from other "not logged in" status
17:00:10 <ehird1> the fact thta computing is largely driven - entirely in fact - by what makes the most money from the uninformed consumer doesn't help
17:00:20 <AnMaster> ehird1, you could reduce that to maybe 50/50 by simply dropping x86
17:00:34 <ehird1> how come the percentage of dinosaurs grew
17:00:38 <ehird1> that makes no sense :P
17:00:38 <ais523> not supporting x86 gives a good excuse to break backwards compat
17:00:48 <AnMaster> ehird1, err I thought it was 80% dinos
17:00:48 <ais523> but I can't think of any other good reason for it
17:01:33 <ehird1> but really, a high-level, single-namespace (no memory/disk distinction), garbage collecting, bignum-supporting, graph-reducing CPU...
17:01:47 <ehird1> i would sacrifice up to seventeen babies.
17:01:57 <AnMaster> ehird1, would not be popular with the java programmers. Or most other either
17:02:07 <ehird1> AnMaster: nothing stopping me making it
17:02:08 <ais523> hmm... the logical next step up would be a really good JITting compiler in hardware, inside the CPU
17:02:11 <AnMaster> but not going to happen soon in any case
17:02:13 <ehird1> I can do most of that in FPGAs
17:02:22 <ehird1> ais523: HIGH-LEVEL chip
17:02:37 <ehird1> the compiler should be doing parsing, structural optimisations
17:02:44 <ehird1> and then writing thato ut almost directly as machine code
17:02:48 <ais523> you'd feed in something like LLVM bytecode
17:03:04 <ehird1> you'd feed in something like a simplified version of the language you write apps in
17:03:21 <ehird1> the bridge between the low-level swamp of the cpu and the high-level bliss is one we made up
17:03:26 <ais523> that looks sort-of like decompiled java?
17:03:43 <AnMaster> ehird1, what about if you want to use another language. Say, if you are a scientist developing a new, and even better, language
17:03:47 <ais523> much the same but with all the loops replaced with while loops
17:03:56 <AnMaster> ehird1, it sounds that would run rather slow then?
17:04:01 <ehird1> ais523: high level loops could make for interesting branch prediction
17:04:10 <ehird1> AnMaster: a few things:
17:04:30 <AnMaster> if it is tied so directly to a specific high level representation
17:04:32 <ehird1> one, I don't buy into the distinction between OS and language, and I think the distinction between hardware and OS is a relic
17:04:46 <ehird1> this stems quite a bit from the fact that I know what can be done if you unify them
17:04:52 <AnMaster> ehird1, so you basically suggest vendor lockin
17:04:55 <ehird1> because I don't think programming should be a distinct activity from using
17:04:55 <ais523> ehird1: doesn't that imply there's no difference between hardware and language?
17:05:05 <ehird1> that's not a reasoned arughment
17:05:09 <AnMaster> ehird1, yes that is the extrapolation of what you suggested
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17:05:22 <ehird1> AnMaster: your kernel hsa all sorts of things built into it
17:05:29 <ehird1> you don't consider them vendor lockin
17:05:33 <AnMaster> ehird1, yes, but I can run another OS easily on the machine
17:05:40 <AnMaster> "and I think the distinction between hardware and OS is a relic"
17:05:47 <oerjan> oklopol: norwegian communist party
17:05:50 <AnMaster> sounds like you suggest that shouldn't be possible
17:06:25 <ehird1> AnMaster: you know, you have never once adopted a position on computers other than the conservative, I}-think-things-aret-good-how-they-are-no-different-distinctions-and-boundaries-for-me, and you continually use strawman arguments to get to these
17:06:32 <ehird1> I am done with talking to you about them.
17:06:49 <AnMaster> ehird1, um. I'm pretty sure I wanted to drop x86 for example. And go for something better
17:06:52 <ais523> my attitude is to let ehird do all the groundbreaking research while I work with what's possible right now
17:07:03 <ehird1> AnMaster: that's not any sort of revolutionary attitude
17:07:10 <ehird1> oh, I'd like a slightly better instruction set
17:07:11 <AnMaster> ehird1, can you explain how it is NOT vendor lockin, based on what you said above
17:07:13 <ehird1> you THINK you want a revolution
17:07:15 <ehird1> butw hen it comes to it
17:07:20 <ehird1> you simply deny all changes
17:07:35 <ehird1> ais523: the instruction set would map pretty directly to the language
17:07:45 <ehird1> if you parse it, do some structural optimisations, and simplify it a bit
17:07:54 <AnMaster> translation: ehird realised the flaw I pointed out exists, and won't admit it.
17:07:58 <ehird1> it'd be perfectly possible to read through the machine code ofa high level application
17:08:12 <ehird1> AnMaster: you can continue having fun with strawmen all you like, I don't care whaty ou think
17:08:18 <ehird1> but if you think I havent considered the issues
17:08:22 <ehird1> you're laughably ignorant
17:08:39 <ehird1> i have, upon reasoned ponderance, decided the issues are not real if viewed with a perspective that produces superirop results
17:08:50 <AnMaster> ehird1, yet you refuse to explain them. Trying to avoid the issues. Looks suspicious...
17:08:56 <ehird1> and, I will say this only one more itme,
17:09:23 <ehird1> you have not once accepted an arguhment. you constantly toe the party line of hardware and software, conservative, while claiming to want something better: you don't wabnt something fundamentally better
17:09:28 <ehird1> just somethign better in the same ballpark
17:09:37 <ehird1> no amount of hours of arguing will ever change this and i know this from a hurge sample size
17:09:38 <AnMaster> ehird1, nice strawman yourself :P
17:09:43 <ehird1> I am not interested in this any more
17:10:01 <AnMaster> ehird1, indeed a very nice straw man you ended with
17:10:10 <AnMaster> well done. You must feel so proud.
17:10:41 <ehird1> i'd ignore AnMaster, but the change wouldn't stick on my other client
17:11:00 <ehird1> so I'll just mention it instead, to annoy him
17:11:09 <AnMaster> ehird1, I'd ignore you. But that would breal 1/3 of the convos in here
17:12:36 <oerjan> it's just we're in the middle of the election campaign here
17:12:51 <ais523> oerjan: what will you be voting on?
17:12:54 <oerjan> although _that_ party stands no chance of getting any seats
17:13:42 <AnMaster> <oklopol> oerjan: you part of it? <-- s/t/ty/
17:13:51 <oklopol> oerjan: will you vote for me?
17:13:53 <oerjan> but the _other_ communist party might get a couple
17:14:08 <ehird1> the security updates for lenny
17:14:08 <ais523> what's the election about, anyway?
17:14:12 <ehird1> don't seem to be complete
17:14:14 <ehird1> no contri]b and non-free
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17:14:22 <ehird1> there aren't any contri]b and nonfrees security updates are there>?
17:14:26 <oerjan> and the third party which any _american_ would call communist, is what i voted for ;D
17:14:28 <ehird1> I don't think there are
17:14:29 <ais523> ehird1: how can I tell?
17:14:37 <ehird1> ais523: look at the US mirror?
17:15:33 <ais523> what would it show me?
17:15:36 <ais523> I don't know where to look
17:15:43 <ehird1> ais523: well, security.debian.org, I guess
17:15:46 <oerjan> ais523: i voted in advance, at the library
17:16:13 <GregorR-L> oerjan: So, socialist? Or just "fairly liberal"?
17:16:16 <oerjan> AnMaster: "Rødt" might get a couple of seats
17:16:20 * ais523 wonders if the leftmost mainstream american party is less left than the rightmost mainstream party in say, the UK or Norway
17:16:23 <AnMaster> <ehird1> ond ebian.org <ehird1> hm <ehird1> maybe i typod <-- yeah, due to quantum you can never be sure ;
17:16:39 <oerjan> but not revolutionary any longer
17:16:48 <GregorR-L> So you're just making fun of Americans' inability to distinguish socialism from communism then :P
17:17:14 <oerjan> AnMaster: maybe, it's Sosialistisk Venstreparti
17:17:16 <ehird1> ais523: the UK is pretty much to the right of any scandinavian country
17:17:23 <ehird1> apart from the lib dems
17:17:31 <oerjan> no, that would be the labor party
17:17:33 <ehird1> who are, like, actually sane
17:17:39 <ais523> ehird1: all the UK parties are all over the place
17:17:43 <ais523> it's hard to tell who is to the left or right of who
17:17:45 <ehird1> and would place center in scandinavia, i think
17:17:53 <ehird1> ais523: well, labour is arguably more right-wing than conservative atm
17:17:56 <ehird1> at least on social issues
17:17:58 <oerjan> AnMaster: not that some americans would not call that communist as well
17:18:05 <GregorR-L> You people and your more-than-two-party politics :P
17:18:07 <ais523> hmm... I've been voting conservative at every election
17:18:17 <ais523> I'm not sure whether I'd prefer the conservatives or lib dems
17:18:18 <oerjan> (they were, 80 years ago or so)
17:18:18 <ehird1> i'd vote lib dem if i could
17:18:31 <ais523> but in my constituency, the libs have no chance of winning, and I know all about tactical voting
17:18:42 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, lets see... 7 parties in the Swedish parliament
17:18:51 <ais523> (I voted Green in the EU elections, though; yay for proportional representation)
17:18:52 <oerjan> ais523: in norway, the conservative side is a shambles now
17:19:00 <ehird1> I had a dream about a bizarre sort of ... school class, writing in a US presidential vote
17:19:06 <ehird1> it was sort of like a cavern thing ... anyway,
17:19:13 <ais523> who was your write-in vote?
17:19:16 <ehird1> i wrote in dennis kucinich, with joe biden as the vp for some reason
17:19:23 <ehird1> (we got to choose both, I guess)
17:19:31 <ais523> oerjan: in the UK, Labour are so unpopular atm that people will vote for more or less anyone to replace them
17:19:47 <ehird1> ais523: OR WILL THEY WHEN THE CCTV IS WATCHING THEM
17:19:57 <ais523> mostly previously strong labour people are voting for the Liberal Democrats, as they can't stand the thought of voting Conservative
17:20:09 <ehird1> conservatives are still right-wing socially
17:20:19 <ehird1> they're just not _completely_ off the deep end yet
17:20:19 <ais523> people tend to vote for the Liberals in by-elections a lot, because it means they can vote Liberal without accidentally letting them into power
17:20:30 <AnMaster> is that right or left of labour?
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17:20:32 <ehird1> AnMaster: the UK's third party
17:20:40 <ais523> AnMaster: everything's mixed with everything else
17:20:48 <AnMaster> you people and your three-party-system
17:20:53 <AnMaster> it doesn't make sense with less than 5
17:21:00 <ehird1> ais523: yes, but the lib dems want to abolish winner-takes-all voting, for chrissake
17:21:01 <ais523> although labour are so right-wing atm, it would be hard for the liberals to be even further right
17:21:02 <ehird1> nobody wants to do that
17:21:12 <ais523> ehird1: the libs do, as it would give them a better chance of getting in
17:21:20 <ehird1> ais523: er, no, (wrt right wing)
17:21:32 <ais523> ehird1: I mean, for a UK political party
17:21:35 <ehird1> the democrats are to the right of labour and conservative
17:21:51 <ehird1> where they're positively hippie communists
17:21:53 <ais523> the BNP manage to be to the right of labour, but I don't think you'd get many votes over there in the UK
17:21:58 <AnMaster> you are intentionally confusing me right?
17:22:06 <ehird1> ais523: the bnp finished 5th in the recent european elections
17:22:20 <ais523> (The BNP are pretty awful, btw: everyone hates them due to their immigration policies, and their other policies are pretty bad too)
17:22:32 <ais523> ehird1: yes, they advertised heavily in a couple of areas and got two seats out of it, the same as the Greens
17:22:43 <ais523> AFAICT, they want to make Britain into a police state
17:22:44 <ehird1> the bnp is just a party of nationalist racist fucks without any unifying policy apart from "we hate other people"
17:22:48 <ais523> and sort of advertise that openly
17:22:59 <ais523> well, at least they're honest
17:23:06 <ehird1> no, they claim not to be racist.
17:23:12 <ehird1> ooh, i remember a ukip tv ad recently
17:23:15 <ehird1> they never once mentioned bnp
17:23:19 <ehird1> though it was hinted at all the itme
17:23:39 <ehird1> "[despite supporting our racistp olicies,] don't be swayed into voting for an extremist party"
17:23:48 <ehird1> ...so I agreed with him. I won't vote for ukip!
17:23:55 <ais523> ukip is who you vote for if you like the BNP's general position on the political spectrum, but hate their actual policies
17:24:05 <ehird1> er, their policies are basically identical
17:24:11 <oerjan> ehird1: norway used to have winner-takes-all voting, until the labor party came about and the other parties swiftly changed it because they would be wiped out otherwise...
17:24:12 <ehird1> UKIP is sort of like BNP except smiling instead of shouting
17:24:15 <ais523> unfortunately, such people are probably quite hard to come across; I'd much sooner vote UKIP than BNP, though, but I'm very unlikely to vote either
17:24:20 <oerjan> (also about 80 years ago)
17:24:24 <ais523> ehird1: does the UKIP have their own private police force?
17:24:33 <ais523> which the real police have to follow around to make sure it doesn't get out of hand?
17:24:38 <oerjan> (when it was communist)
17:24:53 <ehird1> I'm going to start the People's Communist Party of Russia
17:24:57 <ais523> also, I doubt the UKIP is as rabidly in favour of conscription even outside wartime as the BNP is
17:25:07 <AnMaster> so I feel to play a snes game. Which should I pick: Secret of Mana or Zelda: A link to the past?
17:25:09 <ehird1> we support nationalising everything into the russian government
17:25:48 <ehird1> AnMaster: you gave it 32 seconds, dude
17:26:02 <AnMaster> ehird1, well yeah, I'm going to have to decide myself soon
17:26:11 <ehird1> did you just say zelda sucks
17:26:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, zelda doesn't suck, so discarding that...
17:26:19 <AnMaster> both the mentioned games are good
17:26:21 * ehird1 attempts to install w3m to load the security archive page
17:26:25 <AnMaster> I just can't decide which one atm
17:26:42 <ehird1> 20% package luist scanned
17:26:48 <ehird1> this takes <1s on my desktop
17:26:52 <Deewiant> I never liked the Zelda games much
17:26:53 <AnMaster> <ehird1> 20% package luist scanned
17:27:04 <ehird1> it is a gay operating system
17:27:52 <AnMaster> ehird1, unaware of that euphemism
17:27:53 <ehird1> you know what, i should check the security pageson my iphonwe
17:27:59 <ehird1> on account of it not making me want to shoot things
17:28:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well then I'll discard your opinion. Since clearly it is too far from my own
17:28:48 <ehird1> hey, you know, the magic is that debian's actually buzzing along happily in its chroot
17:28:54 <AnMaster> ehird1, or zelda oot in mupen64plus?
17:28:56 <Deewiant> Why ask people for differing opinions if you're going to ignore them :-P
17:28:58 <ehird1> i just need to surgically extractit
17:29:00 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
17:29:08 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble
17:29:21 <AnMaster> oh wait bool doesn't work when selecting between three
17:29:22 <ehird1> computers are fun, despite sucking
17:29:24 <ehird1> i am quite a fan of them
17:31:11 <AnMaster> ehird1, that gives four choices, what if I get the fourth one, clearly it can't be assigned to any of the other choices, that would be unfair
17:31:29 <ehird1> assuming a uniform distribution it's still random
17:31:30 <AnMaster> ehird1, that has a worst case of infinite time
17:31:38 <ehird1> AnMaster: yes, it does.
17:31:47 <ehird1> so does continuing your tedious conversation
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17:32:04 <AnMaster> actually I decided with a local program
17:32:14 <ehird1> lol, boehm gc needs /proc/stat
17:32:23 <ehird1> silly boehm, /procs are for ... kids?
17:32:31 <AnMaster> ehird1, bind mount /proc in the chroot
17:32:51 <ehird1> AnMaster: how, I don't have man
17:32:56 <ehird1> although i have the man pages, I think
17:33:22 <ehird1> wait, i could use the child's manpages
17:33:30 <AnMaster> mount -t proc proc /path/to/chroot/proc
17:33:42 <AnMaster> mount --bind /proc /path/to/chroot/proc
17:34:02 <AnMaster> ehird1, if it is in fstab it would work
17:34:14 <AnMaster> ehird1, you might need to mount /dev too for other stuff
17:35:18 <ehird1> add user after installign sudo
17:35:22 <oerjan> AnMaster: obviously it is impossible to get something with exactly 1/3 probability from a finite sequence of uniformly independent random bits
17:36:18 <oklopol> you only get spaces of size 2^n, and no subset can contain a third of those points
17:36:31 <ehird1> ais523: I think the armel port doesn't get binary security updates
17:36:45 <oklopol> (the proof was totally needed.)
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17:36:52 <ehird1> oerjan: hmm right, i misthought
17:37:14 <ehird1> when we tackle the booting
17:37:26 <ehird1> and surgically extract the child debian
17:37:45 <ehird1> (you don't need special drivers for console and keyboard right? even on arm)
17:37:58 <ehird1> and i guess it has the sata or whatever drivers built in?
17:38:06 <ehird1> wait, that's in the kernel right
17:38:14 <ehird1> so I'll need to install a kernel or use the existing one
17:39:49 <oerjan> they need to develop a sata2 protocol, and then a sata3
17:40:17 <oerjan> so that after a while, people can was what satan is up to
17:40:48 <ehird1> and i think sata3 is being worked on
17:41:14 <ehird1> next we need the sant protocol
17:41:19 <ehird1> and name it alphabetically in reverse
17:41:54 <ehird1> "chroot /debian su ehird" works
17:44:40 <ehird1> so who's bored enough to take a look at the bootup system with me
17:46:42 <ais523> ehird1: that isn't even worth answering
17:47:00 <ais523> btw, why are you running a chroot, rather than just replacing the OS?
17:48:02 <ehird1> ais523: because a chroot is easy to get working first, and I don't think debian has the bootup code
17:48:23 <ehird1> so I'm getting it working (done), then extracting it into the upper system
17:48:30 <ehird1> but keeping the bootup stuff
17:53:03 <ehird1> ais523: so! I think that the three pertinent files are /linuxrc, /config.data and /splash.bmp
17:53:12 <ehird1> I think linuxrc contains the kernel, it's certainly a binray of some sort
17:53:20 <ais523> there's a .bmp file in the root directory?
17:53:52 <ehird1> ais523: yes. it is the bootup splash screen
17:54:09 <ehird1> "UBISURFER: The Ubiquitous Surfer"
17:54:12 <ais523> they should have found somewhere else to put it
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18:00:43 <MizardX> «18:52:34» {oerjan} semper ubi sub ubi
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18:00:51 <MizardX> «18:58:06» {ehird2} what did I miss?
18:00:56 <ehird2> ais523: I fingerpoken and mittengrabben and did "./linuxrc"
18:01:09 <ehird2> it went to teh desktop for a second as X died
18:01:13 <ehird2> it displayed the splash
18:01:17 <ehird2> and went through normal bootup
18:01:30 <ehird2> now, it appears almost instantly after pressing the power button
18:01:35 <ehird2> and is the first thing displayed on screen
18:01:36 <ais523> I didn't realise kernels were executable...
18:01:43 <ehird2> so I gather that /linuxrc is at least the kernel
18:01:49 <ehird2> and perhaps the bootup
18:01:57 <ehird2> ais523: they aren't usually, I don't think
18:02:05 <ais523> also, a name ending 'rc' normally indicates a config file
18:02:08 <ehird2> I'm scared that running it in rootspace somehow put it in kernelspace
18:02:13 <ais523> that is one weird setup
18:02:27 <ehird2> ais523: it's used by initramfs for the same purpose or skdjfghnfkjghbndfsk\jhdfkg whatever
18:02:36 <ehird2> so I'm going to install a kernel package in debian
18:02:45 <ehird2> and see if it makes a similar file
18:02:55 <ehird2> if not, we need to retrofit this debian on to that kernel
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18:06:38 <ehird2> but what a bizarre kernel that executing it in userspace resets the system to it...
18:07:21 <ais523> exactly what I was thinking
18:07:29 <ais523> what does running file on it say?
18:07:59 <pikhq> ehird2: linuxrc is ran before init, if booting from an initramfs.
18:08:07 <ehird2> I don't *have* file, but I'll install it in debian and run it outside of the chroot
18:08:16 <ehird2> pikhq: then where would my kernel be?
18:08:21 <ehird2> ...I'll ask /sys/kernel
18:08:54 <ehird2> pikhq: Doesn't exist, man.
18:09:09 <pikhq> Then your kernel does not exist.
18:09:16 * ais523 considers using a Feather-OS, and hotswapping init
18:09:23 <ais523> and getting a different set of services that have been running all along
18:09:52 <ehird2> pikhq: You assumec x86.
18:11:26 <pikhq> Fine, then. /vmlinux ?
18:12:03 <ehird2> I know this because I executed it and it reset my system with a splash screen.
18:12:10 <ehird2> pikhq: you are wrong because this is not initramfs
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18:12:23 <ehird2> pikhq: but fine, do point me to the kernel
18:12:28 <pikhq> ehird2, the Linux kernel itself is not executable.
18:12:44 <pikhq> (unless you're using UML?)
18:12:47 <ais523> ehird2: incidentally, my guess was right; my arm-linux toolchain is /exactly/ 8 levels deep in the directory hierarchy
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18:13:42 <ehird2> pikhq: i'll ask file what linuxrc is
18:14:22 <GregorR-L> /linuxrc is just /sbin/init for lamers.
18:15:07 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Hmm, does Linux try /sbin/init, then /linuxrc?
18:15:12 * ais523 half-expects it to be a.out format, given how weird this system seems to be
18:15:25 <GregorR-L> pikhq: Something like that, I don't recall *shrugs*
18:15:33 <ais523> ehird2: stripped? for the right CPU?
18:15:40 <ehird2> how can i find out where my kernel is?
18:16:02 <ehird2> GregorR-L: I don't have one, THIS IS A FUCKED UP ARM PLATFORM
18:16:08 <ais523> ehird2: it would be so spectacularly great if you could run it under gdb
18:16:11 <ehird2> If I could just go oh hey grub whatcha booting don't you think I would
18:16:17 <ehird2> ais523: I think it's juwst init
18:16:21 <ehird2> That'd explain how it can run in userspace
18:16:26 * ais523 wonders what gdb /sbin/init would do
18:16:33 <ais523> but doesn't dare try it
18:16:55 <GregorR-L> ehird2: A) every ARM platform I've ever used has had a bootloader, but then they haven't been "fucked up", B) if you don't have a bootloader to read the kernel from a disk of some kind, then the kernel /must/ be burnt to PROM.
18:16:58 <ehird2> wow, I have two inits running
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18:17:26 <ais523> ehird2: ok, that is mindblowing
18:17:57 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:18:03 <ais523> would it be worth more or less permanently breaking your system by putting init in your init.d
18:18:05 <ehird2> GregorR-L: It boots up immediately into the splash screen that /linuxrc gives
18:18:07 <ehird2> and no key does anything
18:18:09 <ais523> and creating an init forkbomb?
18:18:15 <ehird2> and I can't find any relevant files
18:18:23 <GregorR-L> ehird: That just means it's a very boring bootloader ;)
18:18:28 <ehird2> it's gotta know where it is
18:18:35 <ehird2> GregorR-L: so i can't ask it :P
18:18:38 <ehird2> surely linux knows where itself is
18:18:54 <ehird2> GregorR-L: how do i ask it then
18:18:57 <GregorR-L> If there is a bootloader, then Linux certainly doesn't know where it came from.
18:19:14 <GregorR-L> And if there isn't, well, at some point it must have made it into memory, so it's detached from its original location.
18:19:57 <GregorR-L> In short: Poke around until you (don't?) get lucky, because /sys is not your friend in this case :P
18:20:07 <ais523> ooh, idea: you know how RAM loses its data when it's turned off?
18:20:25 <ais523> there's probably some way to make it go specifically to 0, or to 1, at power-down
18:20:29 <ehird2> GregorR-L: Worst-case, I just implant the debian ignoring the kernel
18:20:32 <ehird2> and have it use the existing one
18:20:35 <ais523> so, you could have a system which just starts with RAM in a particular state
18:20:41 <ais523> in other words, it loads up already booted
18:20:45 <ais523> like unhibernating, but even faster
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18:21:52 <ehird2> linuxrc can't be an init replacement
18:22:00 <ehird2> what do you say to that pikhq?!
18:22:01 <ais523> and init is a different binary, not a symlink or hardlink/
18:22:09 <ehird2> if i just start init it tells me it's busybox init and sits there
18:22:34 <ehird2> proc 1'scmdline says init
18:22:52 <ais523> did you know that init never actually starts; it sort-of platonically comes into being
18:23:14 <ais523> it isn't loaded, it just gets created in an already-loaded form
18:24:16 <ehird2> so anyone know where my kernel might be? pikhq, wise guy? :P
18:26:10 <ehird2> /lib/arm-linux-gnueabi
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18:31:17 <ehird2> ais523: will any logs or dmesg point you think?
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18:34:41 <ehird2> ais523: wtf there aer other pratitionsw
18:36:57 <ehird2> "no such device or address" if i try and mount em >_<
18:37:40 <ehird2> how many places can you hide a kernel
18:40:36 <ehird2> ais523: armv5tejl with gnueabi
18:40:39 <ehird2> that is what this kernel is
18:42:14 <ehird2> ais523: this arch seems to require softare emulation of floats, heh
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18:50:42 * ehird2 backs up system to sd card
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19:16:08 <ais523> ehird2: found your kernel yet?
19:16:26 <ehird2> ais523: backing up to the SD, slowly
19:16:32 <ehird2> then I'll perform intensive surgery
19:16:32 <ais523> also, very strange that someone would mknod partitions that don't exist
19:16:50 <ais523> it's as if, why bother?
19:17:15 <ehird2> they also made /mnt directories for sda,sda1,sdb,sdb1,sdc,sdc1
19:17:20 <ehird2> despite that having no relation to the partitions
19:18:10 <ehird2> it's like kafka, the linux distribution
19:18:48 <oerjan> at least it has processes
19:18:56 <ehird2> the verdict of the trial is that you're to be left alone with your root account and it
19:19:05 <ehird2> and you will inevitably enact your own punishment upon yourself
19:19:27 <oerjan> the bad news is, it turns _you_ into a bug if you leave it on overnight
19:19:46 <ehird2> someone should mash up all of kafka's books together
19:19:57 <ehird2> hideous monster beetle on trial for ... something to do with amerika
19:20:25 <ehird2> "Hey Cthulhu! Not lookin' so unique now, are we? Ha. ha. ha."
19:20:45 <ehird2> "Heyy, court's starting!"
19:21:02 <ehird2> that would be so perfect
19:21:20 <ehird2> cthulhu fhtagn! cthulhu fhtagn!
19:21:25 <ehird2> means no worries for the rest of your days?
19:22:00 <ehird2> your very, very short days
19:22:15 <oerjan> http://www.cthulhulives.org/musical/cdinfo.html
19:22:26 <oerjan> there is nothing new under the sun
19:22:41 <ais523> ehird2: on the other hand, I'd imagine you'd be full of worries
19:22:42 <ehird2> okay wait, kafka+cthulhu+bat boy
19:22:51 <ehird2> ais523: you got my reference right.
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19:47:02 <ais523> ehird1: yes, but you said it
19:47:13 <ais523> nothing said by anyone else
19:47:28 <oerjan> qantfhing the horrible
19:52:57 <ehird1> fjkbndbkgdjbhnfkgjnbdfjklbnfkgjhbfnfdjklghbndnjkgbnldfkgnjbghldfkgjbngsjkldfbnerilughbnseruighnhjbierudfjfjghiwerujkgjgnfhiwerulfioklrfhuiojklrfwedhrrsdgryhsdlghgsdswerdfghgsg
19:55:04 <oerjan> you can say that again. but probably not without cutting and pasting.
19:59:30 <oerjan> time dilation gets you every time
19:59:51 <oerjan> unless you stay perfectly motionless
20:00:03 <oerjan> but then you may have other problems
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20:13:26 <ehird1> this is getting annoying
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21:47:22 <ehird1> wdcnejruidfkgvnrtgntjkrnetjhbghn34tgnrkjhrkbghnerbnkbnjktrybnktj34nbjkrlgjkghbntkljbn
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21:49:24 <ais523> ehird1: wow, you actually managed to spell that correctly
21:50:55 <ehird1> copying all of / including /dev /mnt a nd /proc
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21:52:21 <ehird1> ais523: qi have a feeling such files are stalling this backup
21:52:42 <ais523> it's probably waiting on stdin
21:53:09 <ais523> (I made that mistake on normish, when I tried to scp /var/www)
21:53:09 <ehird1> ais523: should i \6c\/
21:53:38 <ehird1> ais523: but it has been going since about 7\;30pm
21:55:22 <ehird1> I'll just cp /dev/hd /mnt/sd
21:56:06 <ais523> is the hd smaller than the sd?
21:56:46 <ehird1> ais523: alas, tens of megabytes bigger
21:57:07 <ehird1> ais523: but not all used ofc
21:57:46 <ehird1> ais523: fses wont store at the end of a hd will they?
21:57:47 <ais523> using tar will probably work better, then
21:57:52 <ais523> it was invented for that purpose, more or less
21:58:15 <ehird1> ais523: yes, but you fail to realise how colossally SLOW this thing is
21:58:20 <ehird1> the copying took hours just to copy 300mb
21:58:32 <ais523> backing up may be impossible in a reasonable timeframe, then
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22:02:05 * ehird2 decides to use a usb sdtick instead
22:02:16 <ais523> <ais523> backing up may be impossible in a reasonable timeframe, then
22:02:23 <ais523> <ehird1> multiple hours
22:02:48 <ehird2> i'm going to try a usb stick, which should be bigger and faster than SD cards
22:03:29 <ehird2> Ruthless OS surgery time.
22:03:33 <ehird2> I'ma pimp this debian up.
22:04:01 <ehird2> I wonder why this thing comes with a chess prorgam.
22:04:07 <ehird2> Doesn't exactly scream "netbook".
22:06:50 <ehird2> mycroftiv: well, you have, like
22:07:40 <ehird2> kind of doesn't fit in, you know? odd for something that's primarily marketed as "You can get on the internet anywhere"
22:07:55 <ehird2> esp when strapped for disk space
22:08:29 <mycroftiv> hmm, i think there is consumer demand for always at least some kind of game/solitaire entertainment and chess is probably what they thought was the lightest and easiest to add, so it seems reasonable to me
22:10:15 <mycroftiv> but im pretty ignorant about the general netbook scene, i find full-size laptops to be unusably small to begin with :(
22:10:17 <ehird2> mycroftiv: are you confusing notebooks and netbooks, perhaps?
22:10:37 <mycroftiv> chess seems trivial even within the context of netbook storage constaints
22:10:50 <ehird2> I really don't think the target market of this thing overlaps much with the group of people who would like a chess game alongside their internet-based + computing staples stuff
22:10:59 <ehird2> it just seems odd to me
22:11:01 <ais523> it's more likely to be speed that's the sticking point with netbook chess, not anything else
22:11:04 <ehird2> Solitaire I'd understand
22:11:21 <ehird2> everyone loves solitaire, it's trivial to play casually and it's in accessories menus everywhere
22:11:30 <ais523> and chess is standard on both Windows and Ubuntu nowadays
22:11:42 <ehird2> but i don't see a lot of people going around the place, catching up with friends and family and then having a nice in-depth game of chess with the computer, you know?
22:11:45 <mycroftiv> ais523: nah, my apple ][ chess programs from the 80s were plenty good to beat anyone who doesnt actually *care* about chess
22:11:51 <ehird2> ais523: sure, but ubuntu comes with all sorts of games
22:12:41 <ehird2> but then this thing's browser works by sending compressed screenshots of IE running on servers that proxies your interaction to the page with the server
22:12:49 <ais523> ehird2: /screenshots/?
22:12:49 <ehird2> so there's clearly some sort of altered mind state involved
22:12:57 <ais523> how do they handle, say, links?
22:13:06 <ais523> I would have thought compressed HTML would work better
22:13:20 <ehird2> they advertise java support
22:13:30 <ehird2> also, rendering and JS in firefox on this thing are dog slow
22:13:35 <ehird2> ais523: links, you click one and it works
22:13:39 <mycroftiv> ehird2: you arent actually serious in what you just said are you? it doesnt actually run a web browser on remote servers, does it?
22:13:40 <ehird2> i guess it proxies all mouse events, except
22:13:45 <ehird2> if you click a text field
22:13:49 <ehird2> you get a gtk text field
22:13:52 <ehird2> which after confirming
22:13:57 <ehird2> goes back to the server's windows text field
22:14:02 <ehird2> mycroftiv: with active-c
22:14:24 <mycroftiv> wow, i am clearly way behind the times, that sounds totally insane
22:14:24 <ehird2> I am tempted to, ahem, root one of them thar boxen.
22:14:32 <ehird2> mycroftiv: don't worry, it is
22:15:05 <mycroftiv> sounds like you can be very confident about the privacy of your web browsing, definitely.
22:15:33 <ehird2> i think they saw opera mini, which proxies all requests but then simply pre-layoutises and parses the HTML, compresses the images, and shoves it back in a hyper-compressed format -- a perfectly sane model -- and misunderstood it entirely when they saw compression artifacts on the images
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22:20:29 <ehird1> pressed control and del by mistake
22:20:51 <ehird1> also mycroftiv i'm replacing the OS, wihch runs everything as root, includi8ng X, with a more sane debian
22:21:02 <ehird1> sincei t's a crazy debian-based ARM thingy, this is non trivial
22:21:09 <ehird1> I've made a chroot debian
22:21:22 <ehird1> now i need to surgically extract it into the host
22:21:28 <ehird1> keeping the host booting code playing nicely with it
22:21:36 <ehird1> after backing up my current system on here for when i fuck things up
22:22:40 <ehird1> ais523: the sdas are for usb sticks.
22:23:32 <ehird1> i wish the fucking usb stick would stop blinking at me
22:23:36 <ehird1> yes. I know you are there.
22:23:48 <ehird1> does cp on devices work
22:23:59 <ehird1> or will i have to do cat /dev/root >/mnt/sda1/foo
22:24:37 <ehird1> ais523: I can mount this directly afterwards when it's done, right?
22:24:40 <ehird1> like, loop or whatever
22:25:11 <ais523> and cp on devices doesn't work, it copies the device not its contents
22:25:22 <ehird1> ok, df tells me about /dev/root. which doesn't exist
22:25:30 <ehird1> just fills me with confidence
22:25:59 <ehird1> I'd put debian on the usb stick, 'cept i doubt the booter will agree
22:27:03 <GregorR> <ehird1> pressed control alt del by mistake // how does one accomplish this feat? :P
22:27:39 <ehird1> ais523: will writing to the disk while this cat runs break shit
22:27:49 <ehird1> i guess so, but my system obviously doesnt know tht
22:28:09 <ehird1> wait a sec, why am i even bothering with this, i can just move stuff to a subdirectory
22:28:25 <ehird1> GregorR: but really, by playing with keys
22:28:26 <ais523> ehird1: is that like, balancing your hand on your head gently?
22:28:42 <ehird1> ais523: it's a facepalm, but you only do the 4th dimensional bits
22:28:51 <ehird1> basically you do nothing for a second
22:30:05 <ehird1> 26mb backed up already, fuck this shit for now
22:31:41 <ehird1> time to examine /debian
22:32:14 <ehird1> i know that linuxrc will execute /sbin/init
22:32:50 <ehird1> ais523: theoretically this should all work fine
22:33:19 <ehird1> worst case this thing is bricked until i can open it up and get at the HD
22:33:41 <ehird1> ok, first, time to relocate the existing system to a meager subdirectory
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22:34:15 <ehird1> surprisingly, moving /lib doesn't break things.
22:35:07 <GregorR> It shouldn't break anything that's already running, but moving anything else after you've done that would probably be tough ..
22:35:20 <ehird1> No, commands are still executing.
22:35:38 <ehird1> Anyway, when I move /usr/lib I can just set LD_LIBRARY_PATH.
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22:36:38 <GregorR> Yeah, but /lib contains /lib/ld-linux.so :P
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