00:01:01 <FireFly> Eg. wrapping or similar isn't really necessary in the implementation?
00:02:10 <coppro> most implementations specify how they handle numbers
00:02:16 <coppro> wrapping to 255 is common
00:02:35 <coppro> but I wouldn't call it undefined; it's generally expected that -+ will always leave the cell unaltered
00:03:16 <oerjan> i vaguely recall something about implementations using church numerals that bombed on decrementing 0
00:03:41 <oerjan> since church numerals cannot be negative
00:09:13 <FireFly> I guess I can move my memory events down a bit
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00:20:58 <Sgeo> There's no way I'm going to remember anything about J tomorrow
00:22:51 <oerjan> Sgeo: so are you that faceless guy? :)
00:23:28 <oerjan> someone who posted a J AskReddit-like self post in r/programming
00:24:32 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9f5g5/attempting_to_learn_jit_makes_me_cry_any_advice/
00:26:34 <oerjan> impossible, there cannot be two people learning J simultaneously...
00:46:28 <FireFly> I played around with J some time during the spring
00:48:08 <Sgeo> Do you remember it?
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01:18:02 <FireFly> Now I think I have an RMXP implementation of BF.. thought severely limited, not supporting input and the only output is numerical
01:18:45 <FireFly> without using the built-in scripting (ruby), that is
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04:32:21 <GregorR> My peppermint soda is a big hit with people who are TOTALLY NOT ME.
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05:14:43 <GregorR> Opinions from people who have never tried it: Mixed :P
05:15:29 * oklofok just got back disappointing exam results
05:18:53 <Gracenotes> okay.. one more day and high speed university connection.. relative to wireless at least
05:19:32 <oklofok> i'm satisfied if irc works
05:22:19 <oklofok> irc often magically works even when i can't make a connection to the internets
05:22:42 <oklofok> of course it's probably because the connection exists already, and pixies are preventing the forming of new ones
05:22:51 <oklofok> but it's very magical still
05:28:34 <coppro> pikhq has had the same problem
05:30:36 <oklofok> i used to, but i forgot to pay the net bill again, and the neighbor's net doesn't seem to do it.
05:30:57 <oklofok> which is good, because it might be rude to go flip their modem thingie on/off
05:34:49 <coppro> just do it from the undefended web interface :P
05:36:10 <oklofok> i'm not sure i'm tech savvy enough, took me quite a while to even understand what you meant
05:37:55 <oklofok> third night of sitting in a car, watching an empty yard
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09:49:39 <oklofok> walking on the bridge, i was sure i could fly
09:49:56 <oklofok> and when i saw a tree, i could've been a squirrel
09:50:25 <oklofok> luckily i can sleep in just three and a half hours.
09:51:03 <AnMaster> oklofok, err ok. Sure you feel all right?
09:51:16 <AnMaster> maybe you need a bit MORE sleep than that
09:51:37 <oklofok> i can sleep *in* 3.5 hours, that is, after that amount of time
09:52:07 <oklofok> before that, i need to play the guitar. that's probably going to work just fine, seeing as i'm basically hallusinating
09:52:17 <oklofok> (at least i feel i could start to)
09:53:38 <oklofok> sleeping 3 hour nights feels interesting after getting used to 12
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10:36:44 <ehird> 14:36:25 * Sgeo vaguely hopes that posting an AskReddit style question in /r/programming is ok
10:36:53 <ehird> it's generally discouraged to not find things out yourself...
10:36:57 <ehird> you ask an awful lot of qs
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10:52:19 <ehird> does anyone know how much a typical 2.5" notebook hard drive weighs?
10:52:19 <Dewio> haha. Oh shit... I unplugged a light in my computer corner a couple of times. My LAN would go down... looks like internet was too. How worrying.
10:52:41 <Dewio> ehird: not much... couple hundred grams?
10:52:57 <ehird> Dewio: yah, but that matters at this scale, so that's quite vague :)
10:53:05 <ehird> I guess single/double platter changes it
10:53:23 <Dewio> find one of those PDF data sheets, they have everything
10:53:28 <ehird> Everyone knows that it varies, anyway! http://social.answers.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/vistahardware/thread/720108ee-0a9c-4090-b62d-bbd5cb1a7605
10:57:36 <ehird> Dewio: unfortunately I don't know the brand; guess i'll have to try and find it out
11:01:39 <ehird> ehh, I'll just estimate it
11:01:50 <ehird> single platter = 250g
11:01:57 <ehird> double platter=400g
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11:03:23 <ehird> and it seems that an SSD weighs about 81g
11:04:04 <ehird> now the question is, how much does a notebook CD burner weigh... hmm
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11:20:38 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm going to do something that is probably insane.
11:20:48 <ehird> I'll jump off a bridge too
11:20:53 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm going to dig out my red hat 5.0 cds
11:20:58 <AnMaster> and install them in virtualbox
11:21:15 <ehird> I thought you meant on modern hardware
11:21:28 <AnMaster> ehird, well virtualbox simulates modern hardware so...
11:21:55 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc it has a 2.4 kernel too
11:22:06 * AnMaster remembers the old make xconfig...
11:22:29 <ehird> Not pure X protocol? :-(
11:22:42 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure... it was SO long ago
11:22:49 <ehird> I mean without even xlib
11:23:09 <AnMaster> make xconfig under 2.6 kernels uses QT btw
11:23:50 <AnMaster> I can only find red hat 6.0 cds...
11:23:58 <AnMaster> I know I have 5.0 ones around somewhere
11:24:13 <ehird> Try and make X11 run on Linux 0.1
11:24:29 <AnMaster> ehird, would need to patch the kernel a lot for it
11:24:44 <ehird> AnMaster: It comes with a Swedish keyboard layout though!
11:24:58 <ehird> That'll save you from, like, one stub.
11:25:18 <AnMaster> ehird, and yeah it is a good default
11:25:31 <AnMaster> weird it isn't default any longer
11:25:42 <AnMaster> ehird, "<ehird> That'll save you from, like, one stub." <-- ?
11:25:49 <ehird> (You don't seriously find that weird, do you?)
11:26:03 <ehird> AnMaster: Stubs are the metric unit for stubbed toes.[1]
11:26:05 <ehird> [1]: http://www.daisyowl.com/comic/2009-04-06
11:26:59 <AnMaster> ehird, what the hell is the thing above it supposed to be?
11:27:13 <ehird> "This futon" might be a hint, huh.
11:27:46 <ehird> If you have some sort of insatiable urge to figure out any sort of context for it, http://www.daisyowl.com/comic/2009-03-27
11:27:50 <AnMaster> ehird, oh right, thought it was the instrument
11:27:58 <ehird> ...The...futon...instrument.
11:35:14 <ehird> Ergo your wrong bitch.
11:36:17 <ehird> ((Meanwhile, AnMaster is oblivious)
11:37:54 <ehird> "Moldover's latest CD has a case, which comes with a theremin built into it."
11:37:58 <ehird> Afhjfdgfgjkdfgksjfdhgksdfjghl O_O
11:38:06 <ehird> I will buy it, no matter what music it contains HOLY SHIT
11:38:09 <ehird> http://blogs.westword.com/backbeat/moldovertheremincase.jpg
11:38:17 <ehird> Wow. wow wow wow wow wow. wow.
11:39:07 <AnMaster> ehird, would be a very basic one I guess?
11:39:10 <ehird> It has a headphone port
11:39:16 <ehird> AnMaster: not much to theremins, really
11:39:21 <ehird> but sure, it won't be high-quality
11:39:31 <AnMaster> ehird, well yeah, but I meant as in "low quality"
11:39:51 <ehird> But the good ones range like £500-£3,000
11:40:01 <ehird> The one I got second-hand for £200 was probably about £500 new
11:40:42 <HackEgo> UK 200 = 2 311.62777 Swedish kronor
11:40:42 <HackEgo> A history of operating systems, by Neal Stephenson, the author of such novels as 'Snow Crash', 'The Diamond Age' and 'Zodiac'. \ www.cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html - [14]Cached - [15]Similar
11:40:54 <ehird> `calc 200 £ in SEK
11:40:55 <HackEgo> 200 UK = 2 311.62777 Swedish kronor
11:40:59 <ehird> `calc 500 £ in SEK
11:41:03 <ehird> `calc 2,000 £ in SEK
11:41:07 <HackEgo> 500 UK = 5 779.06944 Swedish kronor
11:41:08 <HackEgo> 2000 UK = 23 116.2777 Swedish kronor
11:41:34 <ehird> AnMaster: They're legitimate musical instruments
11:41:39 <ehird> How much does a good piano cost?
11:42:02 <AnMaster> ehird, and the answer is: a metric fuckton more
11:42:06 <ehird> Hmm, the track on the stite of the artist who did it is good, too bad the CD+theremin costs $50
11:42:21 <HackEgo> 50 US$ = 355.285223 Swedish kronor
11:43:19 <AnMaster> I start playing something in vlc or rythmbox or whatever
11:43:33 <AnMaster> and it assigns it to one software "channel" or whatever the term is
11:43:43 <AnMaster> then it jumps a few times, causing audible pops
11:43:54 <ehird> Sounds like what's known as a bvug.
11:44:01 <ehird> Like, with your drivers or sth.
11:44:07 <ehird> That isn't a reason to _hate_ PulseAudio
11:44:15 <ehird> Just a reason not to use it since it doesn't work well with your config combination
11:44:39 <AnMaster> ehird, well I checked with that pulseaudio channel info thingy and noticed it happened when it jumped channels
11:44:52 <ehird> You aren't listening to what I'm saying
11:44:55 <AnMaster> ehird, Intel HD Audio thingy is the driver
11:45:21 <AnMaster> ehird, well I only have one system with pulseaudio. On my desktop I use jack
11:45:31 <ehird> You aren't listening to what I'm saying
11:45:43 <ehird> [11:44] ehird: That isn't a reason to _hate_ PulseAudio
11:45:43 <ehird> [11:44] ehird: Just a reason not to use it since it doesn't work well with your config combination
11:45:59 <AnMaster> ehird, well... ubuntu uses it. not sure how I would go about removing it and replacing it with dmix...
11:46:12 <AnMaster> since I never used dmix due to my desktop having a hardware mixer
11:46:26 <ehird> or, try and fix pulseaudio
11:46:52 <AnMaster> ehird, well apt-get yes to remove pulseaudio, but how to get it to use something else instead is the question here..
11:46:59 <ehird> Install another thing
11:47:49 <AnMaster> ehird, well alsa+dmix is already there below somewhere, so it should just be a case of *shudder* messing with the asoundrc and openalrc and various other sound library configs
11:47:58 <ehird> It is done automatically.
11:48:09 <ehird> You can just "sudo apt-get remove --purge pulseaudio".
11:48:11 <AnMaster> There are more sound libraries than there are user space programs using sound libraries...
11:48:33 <ehird> If it doesn't work, your system is fucking weird, which is probable.
11:48:49 <ehird> AnMaster: it *is* ubuntu we're talking here
11:48:51 <ehird> Of course it just works
11:48:54 <AnMaster> ehird, so ubuntu has it set up to automatically fall back on something else hm
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11:49:03 <ehird> Yes, it's done with alternatives or something similar
11:49:42 <AnMaster> ehird, right. Will do that in a bit. ATM it is compiling something.
11:50:01 <ehird> Try ossv4, it's probably an apt-get away :P
11:50:15 <AnMaster> And why am I compiling something? I bet you wonder. Well in this case due to being a developer of said project
11:50:26 <ehird> I was not wondering that at all.
11:51:31 <AnMaster> ehird, btw about trackpoint vs. touchpad: I observed it a bit, well I'm faster with touchpad, but more accurate with trackpoint
11:52:05 <AnMaster> ehird, an external mouse beats both though
11:52:29 <ehird> if I wanted to rely on external peripherals I'd buy a tower
11:53:01 <AnMaster> ehird, well I can't do image editing without an external mouse
11:53:13 <AnMaster> but I don't do that a lot on the laptop
11:53:27 <AnMaster> due to it being so high res it is almost impossible to see what you are doing
11:53:38 <ehird> If I wanted to be a photographer, I'd buy a Mac Pro, a 30" Eizo, and a high-end camera
11:53:49 <ehird> Thankfully, I don't
11:54:06 <ehird> Even if I wanted to I'd probably abstain, because of, uhh, money.
11:54:13 <AnMaster> ehird, not that laptop with an extra 10" screen?
11:54:35 <ehird> So pretty much instantly disqualified for anything involving colours
11:54:44 <ehird> IPS are the thick ones
11:54:56 <ehird> TN are the cheap ones that invert unless you're looking directly at them
11:55:13 <ehird> AnMaster: As for screen realestate,
11:55:20 <ehird> http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/10/gscreen-creating-rugged-dual-screen-laptop-for-animated-frogs-an/
11:55:24 <ehird> http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/27/dual-screen-gscreen-laptop-gets-pictured-hopefully-launching-th/
11:55:34 <AnMaster> ehird, my desktop one doesn't invert except when you are close to looking along it
11:55:45 <ehird> AnMaster: It distorts the colours, at least
11:55:48 <ehird> You just don't notice
11:55:57 <ehird> All TN displays are absolutely horrible, pretty much
11:56:00 <AnMaster> ehird, well not a lot until at very far angle
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12:05:37 <ehird> You know what the bendable, transparent OLED displays should also be?
12:05:48 <ehird> Buy a sheet of display, cut out to fit!
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12:12:42 <ehird> It would be awesome.
12:12:46 <AnMaster> ehird, btw touchpad on my thinkpad is a bit cramped.
12:13:02 <ehird> That's nice. Mine won't have one :P
12:13:12 <ehird> Infinitely cramped, you could say
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12:22:09 <AnMaster> "Lenovo's W700ds is a monster machine for sure; a freakish implementation of a power-user's wishlist created with little regard for practical concerns like portability or cost." <-- nice summary.
12:22:18 <ehird> gScreen is the better
12:22:35 <ehird> Although I don't know if it does RAID
12:22:51 <ehird> Link them together as one CPU box
12:22:53 <ehird> I'm sure BSD can do that
12:22:55 <AnMaster> ehird, no built in colour calibrator. Or tablet..
12:23:03 <ehird> Yes, but two 17" screens, dammit
12:23:15 <ehird> (or maybe just 15"; not sure. they're doing 13" too tho)
12:23:21 <ehird> So plug them together
12:23:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Also, it's a DIGITIZER. :P
12:23:45 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, but they are often called wacom tablets iirc
12:23:59 <ehird> I was parroting Lenovo.
12:24:42 <AnMaster> ehird, why not remake it as dual screen tablet computer
12:24:52 <AnMaster> that would be like awesomeish freakishy
12:25:08 <ehird> 30" tablet notebook, plz.
12:25:30 <ehird> No, it works with your fingers too. :P
12:26:25 <ehird> Mh, I need to build a wearable computer
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12:29:06 <ehird> I wish BeagleBoard was a little less ... underpowered.
12:29:28 <AnMaster> <ehird> Mh, I need to build a wearable computer <-- a 30" wearable one XD
12:29:29 <ehird> But a heatsink and a fan on my shoulders sounds unfun.
12:29:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Subjectively, that's how big the displays look, yes.
12:29:55 <ehird> The black-'n-read Private Eye one looks like a 60" screen at 10 feet
12:30:30 <ehird> Terrible DPI for a 60" screen :P
12:30:43 <ehird> AnMaster: re: tablet - I'll probably use a trackpoint for the mousing
12:30:55 <ehird> due to anything that requires moving being awkwar
12:32:24 <ehird> Wow, BeagleBoards only come with one USB port
12:32:34 <ehird> I wonder what the smallest USB hub in the world is :P
12:32:53 <ehird> I gotta stuff WiFi, 3G, and all my IO devices on it
12:33:00 <ehird> Though it might have PS/2 for the keyboard/mouse :P
12:33:25 <ehird> well, it also has DVI
12:33:28 <ehird> so the display is ok
12:36:17 <ehird> otoh, I don't know of any more easy-to-buy, works-as-is heatsinkless, small ARM boards
12:36:20 <ehird> apart from gumstix
12:36:25 <ehird> but they're not more powerful
12:36:31 <ehird> and ais says they break a lot
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12:57:19 <AnMaster> ehird, what do you need that for?
12:57:34 <ehird> Computer gotta go somewhere, ya ken
12:57:51 <AnMaster> ehird, why not use a Server ATX size mobo?
12:57:59 <ehird> For... very obvious reasons.
12:58:00 <AnMaster> would fit nicely in a large backpack
12:58:12 <ehird> Heck, even the processor:
12:58:27 <ehird> Needs heatsink = very hot and heavy
12:58:34 <AnMaster> ehird, heat? nice during cold winters
12:58:35 <ehird> Probably needs fan = noisy, hot, heavy, easy to jam
12:59:03 <ehird> a Beagle Board can fit into a very big pocket; it's 7.6 cm on all sides (not depth...)
12:59:11 <ehird> well not "very" big, just big
12:59:35 <AnMaster> ehird, could break easily, you need a sturdy box to put it in
12:59:44 <ehird> No, just an anti-static bag
12:59:50 <ehird> And a zip on the pocket
12:59:57 <ehird> Should do the trick
13:00:05 <ehird> It IS made out of copper or whatever
13:00:13 <ehird> And there's no moving parts
13:00:25 <ehird> So if you bend your pockets to hell regularly, I guess
13:00:31 <ehird> Not sure how that would work
13:00:55 <ehird> Yes, well, don't put it in a back pocket.
13:00:56 <AnMaster> don't put it in your back pocket!
13:01:27 <ehird> The main problem with a wearable - okay, not the main one, just yet another one - is the keyboard.
13:01:39 <ehird> I have rather unrealistic demands. I want to be able to code on this thing.
13:01:41 <AnMaster> ehird, You need whatever star trek uses...
13:02:01 <ehird> Don't they just have wearable transporters
13:02:12 <ehird> Yes, but there's a reason those computers are stationary :P
13:02:39 <AnMaster> ehird, or not. They are on space ships, which are moving...
13:03:05 <ehird> Because they're more like ships
13:03:05 <AnMaster> I mean... flying is closer than sailing to traveling in space
13:03:19 <ehird> Airplanes are just a string of seats for the mostpart
13:03:33 <ehird> Spaceships have roomy rooms and levels and stuff
13:03:57 <AnMaster> ehird, there are lots of planes that have more than one level though
13:04:09 <ehird> But it's still more like a ship
13:09:42 <ehird> http://www.amazon.com/Four-Legs-Bad-Good-hardcover/dp/0618809090
13:09:51 <ehird> I think this may be an inappropriate name for a children's book
13:11:24 <oklofok> AnMaster: "ship" is a general world that can mean any nice big travelling machine.
13:12:21 <oklofok> you can use it for a plain as well, technically, space plain would be more restricting, space ship doesn't imply it's closer to the sea kinda ships than planes
13:12:40 <oklofok> the wording may have been slightly confusing
13:12:54 <ehird> oklofok is a very plane man
13:13:00 <oklofok> AnMaster: "ship" could also mean a big flying machine, in my expert opinion
13:13:04 <oklofok> don't ask ehird, what would he know
13:13:42 <oklofok> ehird: please tell AnMaster what i'm trying to say
13:13:59 <ehird> he knows what you mean
13:14:11 <AnMaster> I'm literally laughing out loud atm
13:14:46 <ehird> you are a failure, oklofok. :P
13:15:10 <AnMaster> oklofok, yes if it was only once the typo would have gone un-noticed. But when it happened twice after each other I thought it was intentional
13:15:57 <ehird> a sail full of found and fury
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13:16:23 <oklofok> but when i'm struggling to get my thoughts out, i rarely intentionally encrypt them
13:16:39 <oerjan> that's what you _think_
13:16:42 <oklofok> how fucking hard can it be to explain a word is more general than someone thinks
13:16:56 <ehird> General oklofok! Atten-SHUN!
13:17:37 <oerjan> General Attenborough! Atten-FOK!
13:17:51 <ehird> i just had the image of david attenborough having sex
13:18:35 <AnMaster> <oerjan> that's what you _think_ <-- and that's what she _said_!
13:18:38 <oklofok> you should've seen me at band training, the drummer had to constantly correct my actions (outside play), "switch the amp on", "don't forget your X" for about 3 items when leaving etc
13:19:06 <oklofok> and like "oh, right, i'm awake, let's obey"
13:23:01 <oerjan> wikipedia seems to list no military attenboroughs :/
13:26:43 <ehird> http://www.marco.org/172461410
13:26:52 <ehird> 10Mbit/s cable internet
13:26:55 <ehird> for what is $52/mo today
13:27:04 <ehird> and you could pay more for a 100Mbit version
13:27:13 <ehird> internet service has truly regressed
13:37:03 * ehird decides to try and write a game using Gambit-C scheme and SDL or something
13:39:58 <ehird> gambit's c linking stuff seems quite good.
13:42:43 <Deewiant> Are there any interesting "simple" graphics libs like _why's Shoes (which is for GUIs, not graphics, but anyway)
13:42:58 <ehird> Shoes can do graphics too, but hmm
13:43:05 <ehird> Deewiant: Processing (not a lib, but eh) for one
13:43:27 <Deewiant> Ah, true, I'd forgotten about that one
13:43:52 <ehird> Deewiant: If you want a nicer, more functional-y language for Processing, try http://technically.us/spde/About
13:44:00 <ehird> Can't think of anything else off the top of my head
13:44:11 <ehird> These things tend to want to take over the whole environment for simplicity reasons
13:44:17 <ehird> even shoes is quite isolated
13:44:48 <ehird> Deewiant: If you just want to push some pixels in the IO monad, haskell has a nice gd biniding
13:44:53 <ehird> But that kinda sucks for anything more
13:45:20 <Deewiant> There didn't seem to be anything suitably nice FRP stuff
13:45:31 <ehird> FRP and simple doesn't really uhhhhh mix
13:45:58 <ehird> ((SICP)) has what you need.
13:46:13 <ehird> (SICP is the definition of what is a thing)
13:46:42 <Deewiant> I don't want to code the stuff myself and what SICP gives readymade is a bit limited :-P
13:47:05 <ehird> http://butnotyet.tumblr.com/post/175132533/the-story-of-a-simple-and-dangerous-kernel-bug ;; Yikes
13:47:13 <ehird> Deewiant: SICP even has graphics stuff?
13:47:47 <Deewiant> I recall something like that in the Abelson-Sussman lectures
13:47:56 <Deewiant> Might not have been in the book
13:48:05 <ehird> Don't you even *know*.
13:48:45 <ehird> Yes, but Abelson isn't The Abelson, as far as I'm aware.
13:49:30 <ehird> I am going to have to demand a citation
13:49:51 <Deewiant> http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/
13:50:03 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Abelson
13:50:07 <ehird> I don't see any "The Abelson" there.
13:50:18 <ehird> Oh, nor even "The Sussman"; I conclude that this page is an evil fabrication.
13:50:20 <Deewiant> Nor do I see any "The Sussman" so I guess we were both wrong
13:50:33 <ehird> No, he is obviously The Sussman. This is self-evident.
13:50:51 <Deewiant> TheSussmanness is as self-evident as TheAbelsonness
13:51:03 <ehird> Your thinking is unscientific and ultimately destructive.
13:51:57 <Deewiant> I haven't really pent before so I can't repent now can I
13:52:27 <ehird> You attempt to speak deeply, but you have not achieved Satori. Please cease and desist.
13:53:15 <ehird> I am disappointed in you, student.
13:56:42 <ehird> ˝| : I am pretty sure this is a segmentation fault or something
13:58:01 <ehird> GNU male 77.4 released 3001-07-42
13:58:17 <ehird> 1 The Sussman Dear Lord, please let people know my name.
13:58:22 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
13:58:34 <ehird> But I don't need to.
13:59:40 <ehird> /bin /absolutely_not_cthulhu /kernel /lib /home /boring_system_stuff
14:00:15 <ehird> /some_sort_of_proc_shit /filesystem_drivers /god_I_hate_being_an_operating_system /all_the_rest_of_the_boring_system_stuff
14:00:51 <ehird> No such directory: root
14:01:10 <ehird> Too fucking lazy to: tree
14:01:59 <ehird> (Try meditating or something)
14:02:42 <ehird> /adam /eve /grunt /urgh /eurr /fafa /dookadoo Too many files in directory, aborting
14:03:19 <ehird> adam: original_sin divorce_papers
14:03:23 <ehird> eve: original_sin apple
14:04:09 <ehird> divorce_papers: Microsoft Word document
14:04:17 <ehird> apple: It's, uhh, an apple
14:04:51 <Deewiant> file /absolutely_not_cthulhu/* # Let's get this show on the road
14:05:27 <ehird> fhtagn: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA$
14:06:00 <Deewiant> mv home/eve/apple /absolutely_not_cthulhu/fhtagn
14:06:51 <Deewiant> ls -l home/eve/apple absolutely_not_cthulhu/fhtagn
14:07:10 <Deewiant> Should be separate for each, no
14:07:14 <ehird> absolutely_not_cthulhu/fhtagn
14:07:40 <ehird> info: Terminal type unknown
14:08:04 <Deewiant> stat home/eve/apple absolutely_not_cthulhu/fhtagn
14:08:58 <Deewiant> stat home/eve/apple absolutely_not_cthulhu/fhtagn | grep Access | grep Uid | awk '{print $2}' # IWANTTHEPERMISSIONSDAMMIT
14:09:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, I liked the IWC annotation today btw
14:09:40 <ehird> apple: Access: like a whore! Uid: snake
14:09:51 <ehird> fhtagn: Access: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA$
14:09:58 <Deewiant> chown root:root home home/eve absolutely_not_cthulhu
14:10:09 <ehird> # In the grim future of the universe, awk does nothing
14:10:25 <Deewiant> chmod ugo+x home home/eve absolutely_not_cthulhu
14:10:34 <ehird> No such directory: home
14:11:14 <ehird> /captured_souls /inner_sphere_of_evil /absolutely_not_cthulhu /demonic_systematic_happenings /tools_of_torture /instruments_of_torture
14:11:14 <oerjan> AnMaster: yes, me too.
14:11:48 <ehird> /tools_of_torture/ls
14:12:17 <oerjan> these cthulhux systems are so confusing
14:12:19 <Deewiant> # You sure ls isn't a shell builtin then? :-P
14:12:39 <ehird> SECRET_LAIR=/tools_of_torture
14:12:46 <ehird> HIDDEN_COMPARTMENT=/instruments_of_torture
14:13:39 <AnMaster> <oerjan> AnMaster: yes, me too. <-- XD
14:13:45 <ehird> GOOD=not...really, no
14:14:01 <Deewiant> env | grep -e EVIL -e GOOD -e NEUTRAL
14:14:03 <ehird> Segmentation fault
14:14:12 <ehird> EVIL=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA$
14:15:05 <ehird> Name Used Available Mount
14:15:34 <ehird> /demonic_systematic_happenings/fabric_of_'pataphysics ∞ ∞ /
14:16:01 <Deewiant> umount demonic_systematic_happenings/fabric_of_\'pataphysics
14:16:13 <ehird> Are you sure? (y/N)
14:16:47 <ehird> Are you not sure? (y/N)
14:17:05 <ehird> Aren't you not not unsure about not doing that? (y/n)
14:17:23 <oerjan> what does logic have to do with cthulhu?
14:18:41 <ehird> /libevil.so /useless_cruft
14:19:13 <Deewiant> chmod 777 tools_of_torture/libevil.so; rm -rf tools_of_torture/libevil.so
14:20:02 <ehird> instruments are libraries
14:20:11 <ehird> /libnotevil.so /useless_cruft
14:21:07 <Deewiant> chmod 777 tools_of_torture/libnotevil.so; rm -rfv tools_of_torture/libnotevil.so; ls tools_of_torture
14:21:28 <ehird> Removing tools_of_torture/libnotevil.so
14:22:03 <Deewiant> rm -rfv tools_of_torture instruments_of_torture
14:22:31 <ehird> tools_of_torture/useless_cruft/libnotevil.so: Permission denied
14:22:36 <ehird> Removing instruments_of_torture
14:22:55 <ehird> # (Note: yes, this is winnable :P)
14:23:27 <ehird> # I'm far too lazy to write out every human being ever, dude
14:23:48 <ehird> /a //b //c /£¢`˘ˀSegmentation fault$
14:23:53 <ehird> /a /b /c /£¢`˘ˀSegmentation fault$
14:24:11 <ehird> # Deewiant: Operating on infinite amounts of data at once can lead to weirdness
14:25:37 <ehird> 0000-00-00 00:00 root root /a
14:25:40 <ehird> 0000-00-00 00:00 root root /b
14:25:41 <ehird> 0000-00-00 00:00 root root /c
14:25:50 <ehird> 0000-00-00 00:00 root root .
14:25:51 <ehird> 0000-00-00 00:00 root root ..
14:25:54 <ehird> 0000-00-00 00:00 root root .
14:25:56 <ehird> 0000-00-00 00:00 root root ..
14:25:58 <ehird> 0000-00-00 00:00 root root .
14:26:00 <ehird> 0000-00-00 00:00 root root ..
14:26:04 <ehird> # (Spot the clue!)
14:26:37 <ehird> .: Directory exists
14:26:52 <ehird> # (Swing and a miss)
14:28:35 <ehird> /bin /absolutely_not_cthulhu /kernel /lib /home /boring_system_stuff
14:28:54 <ehird> # (No, you're not at square one)
14:29:21 <ehird> EEXACTLYTHESAMEASBEFORE
14:30:00 <ehird> absolutely_not_cthulhu: No such file
14:30:22 <ehird> # Is this meant to be logical?
14:30:29 <ehird> /how /dare /you /disturb /me /mortal
14:30:49 <ehird> /absolutely_not_cthulhu
14:32:24 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA$
14:34:04 <ehird> # Don't expect it to turn logical or anything, though you are nearing completion
14:34:32 <ehird> # No, I'm not bored
14:34:57 <Deewiant> cd ./../absolutely_not_cthulhu; ls
14:35:29 <ehird> Things a mere mortal is not meant to know. (By this I mean EFUCKYOUIMNOTGOINGTOGOAAAAAGAINIMJUSTADIRECTORYLISTINGPROGRAM)
14:35:42 <ehird> # Every file is sentient here!
14:35:52 <ehird> /./../absolutely_not_cthulhu
14:35:56 -!- ais523 has joined.
14:36:04 <ehird> # we're battling cthulhu
14:36:37 <ehird> ldd: ls is statically linked
14:36:52 <ais523> echo 'are the comment characters because someone'\''s piping #esoteric into a shell script?'
14:37:11 <ehird> ls cat dd ldd cthulhuise vi ...
14:37:18 <Deewiant> # Naw, I do think he's making it up as we go along
14:37:37 -!- Leonidas has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
14:37:40 -!- Leonidas has joined.
14:38:02 <Deewiant> # Btw, I didn't ls after cd /bin but whatever
14:38:12 <ehird> ...! ...! Everybody ...!
14:38:41 <ehird> No such file: /dev
14:39:03 <Deewiant> dd if=./... of=cthulhuise bs=1
14:39:43 <ehird> 0000-00-00 00:00 root root ...
14:39:47 <ehird> 0000-00-00 00:00 root root cthulhuise
14:39:54 <ehird> # Protip: You have vi
14:40:31 <Deewiant> echo $PATH # Where is all this clap trap coming from
14:41:01 <ehird> /bin:^lazy_ex_machina
14:41:10 <ehird> PATH=/bin:^lazy_ex_machina
14:41:24 <ehird> # (It's pretty much standard tools in thar)
14:41:38 <Deewiant> # Except when it isn't and they don't work
14:41:48 <ehird> ls cat dd ldd vi: Executable
14:41:57 <ehird> cthulhise ...: Script of some sort
14:42:07 <ehird> # Yes, in the year 3000 gnu mail is renamed GNU Male
14:42:10 <ehird> # What's your point
14:43:08 <ehird> cthulhise: Some thousands and such
14:43:10 <ehird> ...: Some thousands and such
14:44:23 <ehird> Files are identical
14:44:26 <ehird> Also I printed out "$" to trick you
14:44:33 <ehird> GNU diff "smartass edition"
14:45:05 <ehird> # Are you avoiding the obvious
14:45:12 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
14:45:22 <ehird> vi: Terminal unknown, starting ed
14:45:32 <ehird> Welcome to Microsoft Bob's "restricted ed!"
14:46:23 <ehird> (It pretty much hates you)
14:47:18 <ehird> (It only has like 5 commands)
14:47:56 <Deewiant> I'm reading the man page for what is presumably GNU ed, I'm trying to get any kind of output here
14:48:08 <ehird> Try something very, very simple
14:48:28 <Deewiant> Now I have to read about line addressing
14:48:29 <ehird> But not very, very simple
14:48:37 <ehird> Deewiant: No, one character will help
14:48:42 <ehird> It's non-alphabetical
14:49:24 <ehird> (EONLYONECHARACTERCOMMANDSSUPPORTED)
14:49:56 <AnMaster> <ehird> ...: Some thousands and such <-- over 9000?
14:50:00 <Deewiant> # See, this is why FUCK MS BOB ED
14:50:08 <ehird> # I hate you too, Deewiant!
14:50:53 <AnMaster> ..................................
14:51:06 -!- MigoMipo has left (?).
14:51:17 <ehird> # Protip http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html
14:51:45 <ehird> # EIDONTLIKESPAMMERS
14:51:50 <ehird> # Also ECANWEMOVEONPLEASE
14:52:27 <ehird> # If editing this file with ed, see http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html
14:52:33 <ehird> # I repeat: If editing this file with ed, see http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html
14:53:18 <ehird> # In case you're blind: If editing this file with ed, see http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html
14:53:46 <Deewiant> I know the thing practically by heart anyway and I don't see anything particularly helpful there
14:54:15 <ehird> # Remember that this OS favours the most ridiculous solution
14:54:29 <Deewiant> I also remember that it only supports one-character commands
14:54:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that isn't help. It is a joke about ed
14:54:46 <ehird> # All rules are malleable if it is funnier that way
14:54:56 <ehird> # clap clap, AnMaster
14:55:09 <ehird> Om nom nom nom nom AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA$
14:55:51 <ehird> ls vi cat dd ldd vi cthulhise ...
14:55:53 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the ubuntuish way to mount nfs? I can do it by command line, but surely ubuntu has some nice GUI way?
14:56:01 <ehird> AnMaster: Connect to server in Nautilus or sth
14:56:15 <ehird> ...: Directory, not a file, doofus
14:56:23 <ehird> Also that $ was tricking you
14:56:26 <AnMaster> ehird, looked there, had FTP, SSH(fs), webdav, samba, but no nfs
14:56:47 <ehird> # Uhh, you copied ... to cthulhise
14:56:51 <ehird> # And edited it with ed
14:56:56 <ehird> # What, exactly, are you expecting
14:57:07 <ehird> # Right, er, let's try that again
14:57:33 <Deewiant> # Reading comprehension for the win
14:58:11 <ehird> # *disk krrrrrnks*
14:59:09 <Deewiant> # I expect at least the "If editing this file with ed" stuff
14:59:18 <ehird> # Protip http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html
14:59:18 <ehird> # If editing this file with ed, see http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html
14:59:18 <ehird> # I repeat: If editing this file with ed, see http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.htm
14:59:19 <ehird> # In case you're blind: If editing this file with ed, see http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html
14:59:20 <ehird> # I wonder who I'm talking to when I say: If editing this file with ed, see http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html
14:59:23 <ehird> if [ "$0" = "cthulhise" ]; then
14:59:31 <ehird> echo "$0! $0! Everybody $0!"
14:59:41 <ehird> # THE PLOT THICKENS
14:59:53 <Deewiant> # Should I know what disown is?
15:00:10 <ehird> # You may have done it as "nohup prog" instead
15:00:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is shell built in
15:00:31 <Deewiant> # (In zsh I usually do 'prog &!' instead
15:00:43 <ehird> # Anyway I didn't say evil was part of /bin did I? weird
15:00:58 <ehird> ^lazy_ex_machina/evil
15:01:54 <Deewiant> # I can't see it, I need a reminder
15:02:21 <ehird> # We have two vis?
15:02:50 <Deewiant> # (Dunno about this shell but ^ is often a metachar)
15:03:05 <ehird> evil [[Hidden files]]
15:03:34 <ehird> 0000-00-00 00:00 root root evil
15:04:49 <ehird> evil: Some thousands
15:05:16 <ehird> PATH=/bin:^lazy_ex_machina
15:05:44 <ehird> You cannot destroy evil
15:05:50 <ehird> You can only redefine evil to be yourself
15:05:53 <ehird> And make yourself good
15:06:03 <ehird> And if you sign up now for the Scientology starter pack, we'll AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA$
15:06:25 <ehird> I said you can only make yourself good
15:06:30 <ehird> Also, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA$
15:06:50 <ehird> MWAHAHAHAHHA GOOD? I AM NOT GOOD
15:07:02 <ehird> # wrong track, btw
15:07:07 <Deewiant> # Hmm, would GOOD=root been a better idea? :-P
15:07:39 <ehird> evil [[Hidden files]]
15:08:02 <ehird> PATH=/bin:^lazy_ex_machina
15:08:06 <ehird> ON_THE_RIGHT_TRACK=no
15:08:53 <ehird> evil [[Hidden files]]
15:09:28 <ehird> ESYMBOLICREPRESENTATIONNOTANACTUALFILEIAMNOTTHATDUMBALSOYOUREONTHEWRONGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA$
15:09:41 <ehird> # That's a new one
15:10:19 <ehird> /cthulhu_infection
15:10:52 <ehird> your_utter_failure
15:11:13 <ehird> Attempting to put you on the right track... Done
15:11:41 <ehird> /cthulhu_infection
15:11:59 <ehird> evil [[Hidden files]]
15:12:30 <ehird> Starting evild... done
15:12:53 <ehird> # Protip http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html
15:12:53 <ehird> # If editing this file with ed, see http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html
15:12:53 <ehird> # I repeat: If editing this file with ed, see http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.htm
15:12:53 <ehird> # In case you're blind: If editing this file with ed, see http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html
15:12:55 <ehird> # I wonder who I'm talking to when I say: If editing this file with ed, see http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg.html
15:12:58 <ehird> if [ "$0" = "cthulhise" ]; then
15:13:06 <ehird> if [ "$0" = "evil" ]; then
15:13:08 <ehird> evild --start --pid=^stash/evild.pid $*
15:13:12 <ehird> echo "$0! $0! Everybody $0!"
15:13:42 <ehird> # You should win in a few commands
15:14:03 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaoh, what a relief.
15:14:47 <Deewiant> rm evil `which evild` `which cthulhise`
15:15:08 <Deewiant> # Not sure if that was a typo back then or not
15:15:19 <ehird> It was a hallucination :P
15:15:36 <ehird> evild: beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep
15:15:54 <ehird> # Do I have to spell it out to you
15:16:01 <ais523> sudo start-stop-demon --stop --exe 'evild'
15:16:21 <ais523> # note: misspelling is not intentional, but ought to have been
15:16:30 <ehird> # Deewiant. Think about it.
15:16:52 <ehird> # What did you just manage to wipe out?
15:17:15 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAthank god, wait didn't this happen before?
15:18:22 <ehird> # Deewiant: You can win in a single-digit number of commands
15:18:24 <Deewiant> # There's no more evil or evild or cthulhise... if evild restarted itself before it can't do that now; now it simply refuses to die?
15:18:42 <ehird> # What happened when you copied cthulhise to evil?
15:19:04 <ehird> # But dd just copies files wholesale
15:19:30 <Deewiant> # Sure; I'm missing your point. Even if the original got changed it should be gone now as well
15:19:57 <ehird> # (You didn't check to see what was in there :-( )
15:20:04 <ehird> # For the record it was:
15:20:05 <ehird> if [ "$0" = "..." ]; then
15:20:06 <ehird> evild --constantly-replenish-just-by-being-in-the-file
15:20:16 <ehird> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAtell me this is the final time, otherwise I hate you.
15:20:23 <ehird> # What was the last error you got
15:20:41 <ehird> # That's not an error.
15:21:44 <ehird> # The error was from
15:22:03 <Deewiant> # Presumably the shell or whatever; regardless, evild beeped so I'm assuming it was it who stopped me somehow
15:22:30 <ehird> /evild_replenisher
15:22:40 <Deewiant> file /cthulhu_infection/evild_replenisher
15:22:52 <ehird> evild_replenisher: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA$
15:22:58 <ehird> # Hint: The OS is multitasking
15:23:26 <Deewiant> rm /cthulhu_infection/evild_replenisher
15:23:35 <Deewiant> # With any luck only the dir is protected
15:23:45 <ehird> # I give hints because you need to use them, dude
15:24:54 <Deewiant> kill -9 `pidof evild_replenisher` # This can't possibly help
15:25:24 <ehird> # Yo, dude, remember how you killed evild and wiped out ...?
15:25:41 <ehird> # But evild restarts before you get a prompt, and the file can't be deleted while it's running
15:25:48 <ehird> # Tip: The processor is infinitely fast
15:26:03 <ehird> # But is single-core
15:26:06 <Deewiant> # I thought it never died, just beeped when I tried to kill it
15:26:10 <ehird> # You fig out the rest
15:26:17 <Deewiant> # Or was that another hallucination?!
15:26:17 <ehird> Deewiant: You're right
15:26:23 <ehird> # It's infinitely fast and dual-core
15:26:42 <Deewiant> # I already had the while loop to kill it typed out and all when I realized that :-P
15:26:44 <ehird> # And also multitasking, therefore
15:27:08 <ehird> # You must... obvious
15:27:51 <Deewiant> while ! kill -9 666 &>/dev/null; do done & while ! rm -rfv /cthulhu_infection; do done &
15:27:59 <Deewiant> # Guess they can't hurt if it's infinitely fast
15:28:21 <ehird> EOVERCOMPLICATINGTHINGSTHEREARENOTIMINGISSUESINTHISOS
15:29:00 <ehird> Deewiant: Fix that then one more command to win
15:29:29 <AnMaster> EOVERCOMPLICATINGTHINGSTHEREARENOIMINGISSUESINTHISOST <-- I don't manage to parse the bit after the NOT (IMINGISSUESINTHISOS)
15:30:01 <ehird> there are not I'm in gissues in this OS
15:30:12 <ehird> EYOUHADITALMOSTRIGHTBEFORE
15:30:16 <ehird> EBUTWHATDOTHELOOPSHELP?
15:30:43 <Deewiant> # Since evild is unkillable and I can't touch anything of it without its permission I'm failing to see what's doable
15:31:11 <Deewiant> while ! kill -9 666 &>/dev/null; do done & while ! kill -9 666 &>/dev/null; do done & # ???
15:31:17 <Deewiant> # It can only stop one attempt a time?
15:31:27 <ehird> EITOLDYOUTHATWHILESDONTHELP
15:31:31 <Deewiant> # In which case the forkbomb should have worked as well
15:31:40 <ehird> # Technically yours should work
15:31:43 <ehird> # But it's missing the point :P
15:31:55 <Deewiant> kill -9 666 & kill -9 666 # ???
15:32:06 <ehird> Yours wouldn't work
15:32:06 <ehird> evild: Beep. evild: Beep.
15:32:24 <AnMaster> load a kernel module which does the thing
15:32:25 <ehird> # Deewiant: Jesus christ man, a file keeps a d and the d keeps the file, and you have a dual-core processor with no timing issues
15:32:35 <ehird> # it's blindingly obvious
15:32:51 <Deewiant> # If the two things protect each other 100% and there's no way to do anything in between... it's impossible?!
15:32:58 <ais523> mount --bind /dev/null /cthulu_infection -o loopback
15:33:07 <ais523> I've probably messed up the syntax there
15:33:08 <Deewiant> ais523: There was no /dev/null last I checked
15:33:15 <ais523> ehird: what do you think of my solution, anyway?
15:33:23 <ehird> ais523: evild is too smart for your mortal musings
15:33:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, just kill from the other cpu
15:33:41 <ehird> AnMaster gets it right for once!
15:33:45 <ais523> instead of deleting the directory, rebind over it so it's inaccessible
15:33:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, a simple asm program making two syscalls
15:33:53 * ais523 is determined to find an unintended solution to this
15:34:06 <ais523> ehird: it would be possible in asm, though
15:34:10 <ais523> just as it can be done in C
15:34:10 <ehird> # No it's not, this OS is very clever with &
15:34:22 <AnMaster> meanwhile you need to hog the other CPU to prevent evild running at the same time
15:34:23 <Deewiant> Kill from the other CPU? But I thought the thing can block anything
15:34:30 <AnMaster> so you need to set CPU affinity as well
15:34:35 <ehird> # Deewiant: (kill;rm) and (rm;kill) both fail.
15:34:42 <ehird> # Deewiant: But we have two perfectly-synchronised CPUs.
15:34:54 <ais523> Deewiant: ehird's suggesting you do kill & rm
15:34:56 <ehird> # They failed because the file was there
15:34:56 <ais523> which is a boring solution
15:35:02 <ehird> # ais523: No shit, it's also obvious
15:35:09 <ehird> # He's done all the hard stuff
15:35:22 <Deewiant> kill from one and rm from the other?
15:35:45 <Deewiant> So that it can then block one but not the other? What happened to "infinitely fast"?
15:36:00 <ais523> which CPU is evild running on, by the way?
15:36:18 <ehird> # Deewiant: They're perfectly synchronised
15:36:30 <ehird> # Deewiant: Also, infinitely fast, yes
15:36:32 <Deewiant> Oh, that's what you meant by "no timing issues"?
15:36:34 <ehird> # But still ordered
15:36:49 <ehird> # Which is why the double-kill wouldn't work
15:36:53 <Deewiant> Maybe I should have asked for clarification as to what you meant by "timing issues"
15:37:02 <ais523> ehird: if they're infinitely fast, I'd be solving the Riemann Hypothesis, rather than bothering with evild
15:37:13 <ehird> # ais523: It would tell you ENICETRY
15:37:47 <ais523> incidentally, yay I wrote a Dudley's Dungeon comic that people actually like: http://alt.org/nethack/dudley/?f=2009.8.30
15:37:57 <Deewiant> # Forgetting about the fact that by the time the fork is done the first command is finished...
15:37:58 <Deewiant> kill -9 666 & rm -rf /cthulhu_infection
15:38:06 <AnMaster> ais523, that thing is STILL going?
15:38:13 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, people enjoy it
15:38:15 <ais523> and yes, different website
15:38:18 <ais523> which is why you hadn't noticed
15:38:27 <ais523> the one on sadowl is also still going, but more slowly
15:38:33 <AnMaster> ais523, I stopped reading it long long ago
15:38:36 <ais523> but the original original one isn't
15:38:43 <ehird> evild: BeeAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaawhat's happening? did you do it afucking gain? Oh gop! ...p! :(is it over now? evild: beeeeeeeeeex I, yawn, need some rest after that. Maybe a reboot would help.
15:38:51 <AnMaster> ais523, and yeah the original is all I knew about
15:39:12 <ehird> Killing all processes...
15:39:23 <ehird> Starting services...
15:39:23 <ais523> # ln -s /sbin/reboot /sbin/restart ; /sbin/restart
15:39:30 <ehird> Booting face party program...
15:39:36 <ehird> ˝| : I feel like hours just passed
15:40:40 <ehird> Deewiant: you just lost hours of your time
15:40:59 <Deewiant> No, CCBI's been running at 100% CPU usage all this time
15:41:01 <ehird> ais523: sadowl, btw, not shadowl
15:41:13 <ais523> ehird: I said sadowl, it's AnMaster who typoed it
15:41:22 <ehird> Deewiant: What's it doing
15:41:27 <ais523> AnMaster: http://sadowl.com/dudley/
15:41:39 <ehird> Deewiant: Beating cfunge? :P
15:41:50 <Deewiant> No, it's CCBI1, which is why it's been all this time
15:42:00 <Deewiant> It's occasionally even slower than Language::Befunge, I've noticed
15:42:10 <Deewiant> I don't know what's going on in that hashtable implementation
15:42:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, thats...... impressive
15:42:15 <ehird> Deewiant: What program, slowdown?
15:42:43 <Deewiant> The current one, which took 8966 seconds, is a 6000*6000 square of > and v and ^ ending in f.@
15:42:56 <Deewiant> IIRC cfunge takes about 30 seconds on it
15:43:25 <Deewiant> AnMaster: No, but I can pastebin the script that generates it
15:43:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok would work if it is deterministic
15:43:48 <ehird> Wow, it was only about one and a half hours that took
15:43:52 <ehird> well ok, more like 1+45 minutes
15:44:00 <ehird> still, felt like much longer
15:44:02 <Deewiant> AnMaster: http://funge.pastebin.com/f5c673a86
15:44:18 <Deewiant> ehird: The issue is how it does mem allocation
15:44:29 <Deewiant> It goes up to over 2 gigs quite quickly
15:44:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I think increasing the size of the static area would be the way to go
15:44:47 <Deewiant> Then it starts allocating at a rate of about 16M every minute or so
15:44:53 <ehird> Have a 6000x6000 static area
15:45:10 <AnMaster> for obvious reasons this would be bad
15:45:17 <Deewiant> I /will/ increase the sizes to get out of your damn static areas, no matter how big you make them :-P
15:45:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, dynamic static areas?
15:45:47 <ehird> Battling to write a program cfunge is slow on is basically battling against a very slow form of hardcoding the output
15:45:59 <AnMaster> detecting a lot of static area misses... using mmap() and grow static area
15:46:13 <Deewiant> There are 1*100000000 benchmarks as well
15:46:15 <ehird> AnMaster: thinking oxymorons are a nice idea since forever
15:46:25 <Deewiant> And I doubt he'll make it that big by default ;-)
15:46:33 <AnMaster> ehird, well static area would be the wrong term yes
15:46:43 <ehird> AnMaster: Do you know what dynamic static areas are called?
15:46:43 <Deewiant> 100000000^2 is a lot of integers
15:47:08 <ehird> That wasn't even funny, meaningful or anything
15:47:11 <ehird> I will summarily ignore it
15:47:26 <AnMaster> ehird, it wasn't supposed to be funny...
15:47:37 <AnMaster> it was supposed to be meaningful though
15:48:00 <ehird> You only ever say "clearly" when you're attempting to be funny, AnMaster.
15:48:16 <AnMaster> ehird, if so I wasn't aware of it
15:48:27 <AnMaster> but no I wasn't meaning to be funny
15:48:35 <ehird> Maybe it's your subconscious valiantly trying to save you from your awfulness.
15:48:40 <ehird> By blotting out awareness.
15:48:53 <AnMaster> I was thinking about pyalloc's areans
15:49:03 <AnMaster> anyway... it isn't like I would have time to implement this any time soon
15:49:51 <ehird> That was the worst reference ever
15:50:00 <ehird> You should feel bad.
15:50:04 <AnMaster> ehird, it wasn't supposed to be _funny_ at all
15:50:31 <AnMaster> ehird, I was thinking it would be an appropriate name for 2D areas here.
15:51:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, still... my hash library is far from slow so meh
15:53:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what language was that paste in...
15:53:38 <ehird> And here I was trying to save Deewiant from the endless barrage of questions about the program
15:54:25 <ais523> what's the subject of discussion?
15:54:41 <ehird> cfunge being microoptimised for one program yet again
15:54:42 <Deewiant> http://funge.pastebin.com/f5c673a86 and cfunge?
15:54:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it prints a single char?
15:55:09 <Deewiant> $ARGV[0] not enough of a hint?
15:55:23 <Deewiant> It should print 4 chars without any arguments, though
15:55:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok I should have given it a longer name than t.pl?
15:55:32 <AnMaster> argv0 is program name after all
15:55:47 <Deewiant> In perl it's like you C folks' argv[1]
15:55:52 <ais523> ehird: the number of Befunge programs is sufficiently small that you could probably micro-optimise for each of them individually
15:56:00 <ehird> AnMaster is a master of turning his brain off intentionally whenever he is faced with a language he hasn't given purposeful effort to lear
15:56:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what is program name then?
15:56:35 <Deewiant> Ask ais523 or fizzie, they know Perl
15:56:47 <Deewiant> Or get an answer from ehird, that works too
15:56:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so who wrote that program?
15:56:59 <ais523> AnMaster: C's argv[0] is Perl's $0, C's argv[1] is Perl's $ARGV[0]
15:57:09 <ehird> ais523: No it's not, C predates Perl
15:57:12 <Deewiant> It was originally in shell script
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15:57:14 <ehird> You mean the other way around
15:57:22 <ais523> ehird: I'm using "is" in the sense of "means the same thing"
15:57:26 <ais523> not in the sense of "was based on"
15:57:27 <Deewiant> But it turns out that doing 3000000 echoes is slow as shit
15:57:31 <ais523> my relation is commutative
15:57:32 <ehird> I'm trying to be as stupid as AnMaster to see what it's like
15:57:44 <ehird> Sorry if it inconveniences anyone else :P
15:57:52 <AnMaster> but what language was perl originally coded in then?
15:58:09 <ehird> Sussman wrote the first Perl implementation, in Perl.
15:58:17 <ehird> Then another was written in Ada to execute the first one.
15:58:19 <AnMaster> ehird, self interpreters are nice, but you need something to bootstrap it
15:58:37 <ais523> ehird: blatant lying is probably not a good idea
15:58:44 <ais523> I think the first impl was Larry Wall's C impl perl1
15:58:50 <ehird> ais523: It is when faced with someone who is both stupid and unable to use google
15:58:59 <AnMaster> so perl doesn't predate C then :P
15:59:06 <ehird> I... never said that.
15:59:16 <ehird> [15:57] ehird: ais523: No it's not, C predates Perl
16:00:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, use a better hash table btw
16:00:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it can't be too hard to implement one yourself
16:01:00 <Deewiant> I'd rather not update CCBI1 more
16:01:01 <ehird> <Deewiant> Yes sir
16:01:14 <Deewiant> There's one in Tango which would probably be better
16:01:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what one do you use now then?
16:02:02 <Deewiant> Which I guess also comes from Tango though
16:02:06 -!- oerjan has quit ("http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DidYouJustPunchOutCthulhu").
16:02:31 <ais523> I never have visited TV Tropes
16:02:35 <Deewiant> The trick with TV Tropes is to read it all
16:02:41 <Deewiant> Then you won't get stuck again
16:02:53 <ehird> I tried that, didn't work
16:02:56 <ehird> I forgot half the pages
16:03:03 <Deewiant> Okay, s/read/read and remember/
16:03:08 <Deewiant> I remember that one, for instance :-P
16:03:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the trick is to set a CSS to hide the links
16:03:49 <ais523> Deewiant: if you use Chatzilla, you could
16:04:04 <Deewiant> Yes, and probably in several others too
16:04:05 <ehird> On the other hand you'd have to use chatzilla
16:04:17 -!- ehird has left (?).
16:04:20 -!- ehird has joined.
16:04:24 <ehird> I did that just to see if it would work
16:04:27 <ehird> why did I do that?
16:06:44 <Deewiant> Meh, I should just benchmark the fast interpreters and forget about these slow ones
16:07:05 <ehird> Spoiler: cfunge wins
16:07:44 <Deewiant> That's not the only kind of result one can get :-P
16:08:02 <ehird> Deewiant: True... until the next cfunge release.
16:08:23 -!- FireFly has joined.
16:08:24 <Deewiant> I didn't mean that somebody else would win
16:08:37 <Deewiant> I meant that the type of data is not only "X wins"
16:08:47 <ehird> true, you could make a pie chart
16:08:56 <ehird> you wouldn't have enough pixels for the non-cfunge segments
16:08:58 <Deewiant> I've been plotting memory usage vs. time
16:09:56 <Deewiant> With the memory usage and time data gathered on different runs, but anyway; it's scientific!
16:12:21 <ais523> why can't you measure on the same run?
16:13:16 <Deewiant> I'd rather the time measurements are separate, since the mem measurer uses up CPU by itself
16:13:48 <ehird> Do you know who else uses CPU by herself
16:14:09 <Deewiant> I could of course save time measurements for the memory run as well to get more accurate plots, I just haven't
16:23:46 <ehird> DASHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHIk
16:26:19 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> That's not the only kind of result one can get :-P
16:26:19 <AnMaster> <ehird> Deewiant: True... until the next cfunge release.
16:26:34 <AnMaster> well, it wouldn't manage well on that grid thingy
16:26:40 <ehird> Will never be completed
16:26:42 <AnMaster> since it only runs any code once it seems
16:27:48 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> I've been plotting memory usage vs. time <-- cfunge would use a large amount of RAM compared to time
16:28:05 <AnMaster> it easily hits 10 MB or so for the "baseline" iirc
16:28:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Not at all, compared to L::B and CCBI1 :-P
16:28:36 <ehird> Further proving cfunge's perfect superiority!
16:28:58 <Deewiant> In the end all three use a fairly similar amount of memory, of course, since they all use hashtables of ints
16:29:29 <ehird> Doesn't a 32-bit funge only need 4GB- wait, no, that's 16-bit
16:29:34 <ehird> 32-bit would need (large)GB
16:29:56 <ehird> an N-bit funge needs an (N*2)-bit address space
16:30:03 <ehird> Deewiant: Storing the whole of fungespace
16:30:32 <ehird> Anyway, that means a conformant funge MUST be (cpubits/2)-bit or less
16:30:34 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't it 2^32 * 2^32 even
16:33:23 <ehird> http://xkcdsuckssuxsuckssux.blogspot.com/
16:33:35 <ehird> (Yes, all the previous chains exist)
16:33:41 <ehird> Also http://xkcdsuckscommentboxsucks.blogspot.com/
16:33:56 <ehird> And http://xkcdisaparagonofhilarity.blogspot.com/ and http://xkcdisaparagonofhilaritysucks.blogspot.com/
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16:38:08 -!- coppro has joined.
16:40:11 <ehird> http://imgur.com/j9wrB.jpg
16:40:28 <ehird> Insert esolang-related joke
16:40:30 <ehird> I know there is one
16:40:34 <ehird> I just can't think of a a decent one right now
16:47:16 <ehird> In an infographic from the internet no less
16:48:56 <Deewiant> How dare they put a typo in my Internet
16:50:01 <ehird> http://www.pawfal.org/fluxus/documentation/
16:50:12 <ehird> Scheme + live coding + 3d + based on audio + stuff = too cool
16:51:21 <Asztal> In effect, we conjure the spirits of the synthesizer with our spells?
16:51:36 <ehird> In this case, the synthesizer conjures the spirits of the 3d cubes with its spells
16:54:30 <ehird> Now it's turned into a waggling cube penis.
16:54:41 <ehird> Okay now THAT'S cool
16:55:53 <ehird> Haha, the blur blurs the editor too
16:56:51 <ehird> This would make a good video for the track
17:17:14 <Deewiant> http://www.neatorama.com/2007/01/18/cthulhu-buns/
17:17:49 <ehird> AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
17:21:44 <ehird> "Chinese workers have covered a giant steel bridge with butter because officials are fed up with traffic jams caused by people who slow down to watch suicide victims leaping to their death."
17:21:49 <ehird> I love the justification ther
17:21:58 <ehird> They don't care about the actual suicides, hell no!
17:22:36 <ehird> "and we put up special fences and notices asking people not to commit suicide here"
17:22:48 <ehird> "Out of consideration for others, please kill yourself in your own home!"
17:22:51 <ais523> ehird: why would covering it with butter help?
17:23:00 <ehird> [[Bridge guard Wong Man said: "The butter makes the bars and frames slippery and hard to climb onto, and we can easily catch them."]]
17:23:21 <ehird> "Move along now, there's another bridge to jump off, I'm sure"
17:25:18 <oklofok> ehird: Deewiant: SICP even has graphics stuff? <<< it has the picture language
17:25:26 <ehird> like turtle stuff?
17:25:28 <ehird> vague memory of tha
17:25:42 <oklofok> it's a language where you can compose pictures.
17:25:50 <ehird> that's turtle to me
17:25:54 <ehird> if it's simplistic
17:25:59 <oklofok> "language", basically you have picture objects and combinators for them
17:26:16 <Deewiant> Turtle stuff is LOGO, which is a bit more simplistic
17:26:27 <oklofok> turtle stuff is imperative
17:26:35 <ehird> gah scheme is beautiful
17:26:48 <oklofok> you should read sicp, ehird
17:26:48 <ehird> wish plt was less crappy on os x tho
17:27:02 <ehird> oklofok: it's so much more fun trolling people about it having not read it
17:27:41 <oklofok> you *have* read it though, right?
17:28:06 <Deewiant> If he says "having not read it", presumably he then hasn't read it
17:28:18 <oklofok> but... i really thought he had read it
17:28:34 <oklofok> that's probably part of the reason i took the time to read it
17:28:36 <Deewiant> I thought we'd established that you tend to be detached from reality
17:28:39 <ehird> see, it's great to do long-term trolling things
17:28:44 <ehird> because you shatter people's minor illusions
17:28:49 <ehird> oklofok: is it any good :P
17:29:32 <ehird> i rarely read longform programming stuff
17:29:39 <ehird> i'm much more of a hypertexty, contexty person
17:29:45 <oklofok> too little math, but the code is sexy
17:29:59 <ehird> well obviously, it's by the Sussman
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17:31:56 <ehird> oklofog: I can't see through you
17:33:20 <fizzie> I guess oklofog's just condensed oklowater.
17:33:57 <ehird> t is totally a verb
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17:36:23 -!- oklofog has changed nick to oklovar.
17:37:16 <oklovar> i can't believe you haven't read sicp
17:37:34 <oklovar> have you read rwh? not sure you even started, but i assumed that too :P
17:37:35 <ehird> oklovar: are you just sitting there gawping
17:37:38 <oklovar> HAVE YOU READ ANYTHING, EVER?
17:37:42 <ehird> i started to read rwh then stopped
17:37:51 <ehird> i started to read anything then stopped HUR HUR
17:38:01 <fizzie> Oklowaßer. Except I guess they wouldn't spell it with ß at least nowadays.
17:38:05 <ehird> actually I can't read.
17:38:08 <ehird> I use a screenreader
17:38:27 <oklovar> would be pretty cool if you just never learned to read
17:38:40 <ehird> oklovar: that is what is known as being a retard :P
17:39:07 <oklovar> or a dude who sticks to his priorities
17:39:34 <ehird> i think it'd be very hard to not learn to read
17:40:12 <oklovar> I CAN'T BELIVE YOUR NOT HAVING READ IT BELIEVE
17:40:25 <fizzie> I can't believe ehird's not butter!
17:40:27 <ehird> oklovar: you ARE just sitting there in amazement are you
17:41:05 <oklovar> i am. too tired to read, but i don't want to sleep
17:41:15 <ehird> you can't read now
17:41:47 <oklovar> err because you don't or what?
17:43:13 <oklovar> maybe i'll just read a *little* bit
17:50:04 <oklovar> i could've been a fine computational geometrician in the 1970's, for instance, i invented quadtrees and kd-trees in the same order as they appeared irl, and with about the same interval
17:50:26 <Deewiant> Quadtrees don't take much creativity
17:50:27 -!- ehird has left (?).
17:50:29 <ais523> someone should invent hexadecitrees for storing 4D data
17:50:35 -!- ehird has joined.
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17:50:49 <ais523> <ais523> someone should invent hexadecitrees for storing 4D data <--- all you missed
17:50:49 <ehird> I have two windows focused at once
17:50:52 <ehird> how the fuck does that work
17:51:02 <ehird> Glitchily, is the answer :P
17:51:11 <ais523> I've seen it happen on computer games with homebrew OSes, but not on real OSes before
17:51:21 <oklovar> Deewiant: i "invented" them as a quick hack to make collision queries faster
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17:51:30 <ais523> half the glitches in the original Pokémon were that sort of thing
17:51:35 <oklovar> kd-trees were what i did after learning what data structures were
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17:53:05 <oklovar> ais523: i'm fairly sure the original papers about quadtrees have "can obviously be extended to any amount of dimensions"
17:53:17 <ais523> but have they been named?
17:53:35 <ais523> there are quadtrees and oct-trees, after all
18:06:35 <fizzie> "Results 1 - 3 of 3 for hexadectree."
18:07:07 <fizzie> "-- produce the same result as one hexadectree refinement step, where a hexadectree is the generalization of an octree to four dimension --"
18:07:11 <fizzie> At least someone's named it.
18:07:40 <fizzie> Not very common, but still more common than a hexadec*i*tree; "Results 1 - 2 of about 0 for hexadecitree."
18:08:19 <ehird> "1 - 2 of about 0" :D
18:09:30 <fizzie> Okay, so 2 out of the 3 are from the same paper, "Hierarchical Representation of Time-varying Volume Data with ∜2 Subdivision and Quadrilinear B-spline Wavelets".
18:11:09 <ehird> is that a single character?
18:11:26 <ehird> as in, not a combining+regular
18:14:12 <ehird> Oh, I thought that was sqrt a
18:16:51 <fizzie> Yes. Maybe I should've added a combining overline to the 2, like ∜2̅.
18:18:17 <fizzie> I can't seem to find combining numbers, even though I think I've seen those. Must've been dreaming. There's quite a lot of combining latin letters, though.
18:19:49 <ehird> The font's too small
18:19:51 <ehird> it looked like a weird a
18:21:56 <oklovar> still kinda weird to believe
18:22:17 <fizzie> The upper/lower-half symbols are funny. Like the sum:
18:24:43 <fizzie> Or the integral, which has a separate extension-bar and all.
18:25:39 <Deewiant> And the differential sign (I guess?) next to the x is just a box
18:26:07 <fizzie> That's U+2146 double-struck italic small d, "sometimes used for the differential". I wanted something a bit out of the ordinary there.
18:28:34 <Deewiant> No, I mean it was riddled with holes
18:28:55 <AnMaster> ah well yes it doesn't fit together here. Neither does
18:41:32 -!- ehird has quit.
18:54:01 <AnMaster> From the spam folder: You can▓t even complain about our watches √ they are perfect.
18:57:56 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
19:03:39 <fizzie> ℱ⁻¹, the inverse Fourier transform.
19:03:49 <fizzie> For the record, I had holes in both the sum and the integral.
19:24:50 -!- ehird has joined.
19:26:03 <ehird> Neither fit together due to (a) fonts, (b) line height
19:26:44 <ais523> ehird: they fit together on a DOS console
19:26:51 <ais523> I know this from experience
19:27:17 <ais523> no, those characters are, amazingly, in the default 256-char character set
19:27:28 <ehird> well that's to be expected
19:27:31 <ehird> spreadsheets and the like
19:27:50 <ais523> presumably that's why they're in unicode in the first place
19:28:06 <ehird> no, unicode just wants to have everything
19:28:13 <ehird> which includes being able to do plaintext mathematics
19:28:31 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cp437 has the possibly most famous DOS charset. I don't think it has a sum.
19:28:33 <ehird> although only two lines for sum seems od
19:28:44 <fizzie> There's the top and bottom for integral, and a single-character sigma.
19:28:45 <Deewiant> It has a one-line sum in the form of capital sigma
19:28:47 <coppro> even, with any luck, Tengwar and Cirth
19:28:48 <ehird> either line you put the expression, it's unbalanced
19:29:06 <ais523> fizzie: ah, no, but it has the integral as 244,245
19:29:41 <fizzie> Anyway, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cp850 is what we mostly saw, since cp437 lacks the åäö chars.
19:29:46 <coppro> you can always do a single sigma with sub/superscript indices
19:29:49 <ehird> 11:08:56 <Deewiant> http://imgur.com/a2RFE.jpg
19:29:49 <ehird> one of my first thoughts was "that laptop is unreasonably thick" :P
19:32:25 <fizzie> The Unicode ☺ (at least in this font) doesn't much look like the mostly-rectangular face I'm used to; the one that's in the picture on the cp437 wiki-page.
19:32:51 <ehird> The cp437 is :D anyway
19:33:41 <fizzie> And the double exclamation point, ‼.
19:33:55 <ehird> Which looks identical to !! in this font
19:33:58 <ehird> As in, pixel-for-pixel
19:34:19 <ais523> ehird: they look very different in this font
19:34:28 <ais523> different spacing, different height
19:34:29 <fizzie> But takes one byte less! Well, except that it's three bytes in UTF-8.
19:34:33 <Deewiant> Is it your font or your kerner
19:35:05 <ais523> the kerner here is pretty aggressive, though
19:35:28 <Deewiant> That was more at ehird, since it seems odd that the characters themselves would be identical
19:35:58 <ehird> I'm pretty sure it's identical in Lucida Grande, although really, OS X's kerner is so perfect that I couldn't point out if it was
19:36:08 <ehird> *they're; not it's
19:36:15 <ehird> They are literally pixel-identical.
19:36:58 <fizzie> Deewiant: You're right. Why, then, did we bother with cp850?
19:37:09 <Deewiant> Did we? I don't think I did :-P
19:38:13 <fizzie> "keyb su,850,c:\dos\keyboard.sys" is I think what some autoexec.bat said.
19:38:40 <Deewiant> I always just used "keyb su,,"
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19:43:42 <ehird> you crazy people who actually used DOS
19:44:47 <ehird> did I say there's anything wrong with DOS?
19:45:39 <impomatic> No, you just called us crazy for using it. What's wrong with us?
19:45:48 <ais523> I rarely use it nowadays
19:45:53 <ehird> impomatic: Firstly,
19:45:54 <ais523> but I prefer it to Windows
19:45:58 <ehird> "used", past tense
19:46:03 <ehird> Secondly, there was context
19:46:10 <ehird> Thirdly, for the record, DOS is awful
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19:47:59 <ehird> Well that upset him
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19:51:58 <impomatic> Thanks, gf made me restart net :-(
19:52:46 <ehird> http://www.rntz.net/files/arc3.1.patch
19:52:47 <ehird> ITT: Paul Graham and friends fix the fact that Arc doesn't work on MzScheme 4, because conses are immutable, by writing low-level pointer/memory hackery to directly modify them. Among every other obvious objection to this ridiculous, ridiculous change is that there's no damn guarantee that the *immutable* pairs will even be *mutable* in memory in the future.
19:53:56 <Deewiant> Is that allowed in R6RS or something?
19:54:14 <ehird> Deewiant: It's a PLT-specific change.
19:54:16 <fizzie> If I recall correctly, anyway.
19:54:27 <Deewiant> Presumably there's a "mutable-cons"?
19:54:27 <ehird> ais523: I'm going to assume you don't know who Paul Graham is either
19:54:45 <ehird> ais523: I really don't have the hours to explain to you, so let me summarise it:
19:54:48 <ais523> I can certainly tell from your description that that patch is a very bad idea, though
19:55:03 <Deewiant> Presumably it's a pain in the butt to use cons everywhere except MzScheme
19:55:06 <fizzie> R6RS has http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs-lib/r6rs-lib-Z-H-18.html#node_chap_17
19:55:13 <ehird> Deewiant: So set the language to r5rs or whatever in mzscheme
19:55:18 <ehird> Scheme isn't really portable
20:00:09 <ehird> ais523: Paul Graham is a guy who got rich from a terrible web application in the 90s that was bought out by Yahoo, ViaWeb (now Yahoo Stores, although it doesn't use his code anymore). Basically, he got lucky. It happened to be written in Lisp, so he then promptly became a blowhard, writing a bunch of stupid essays about how using Lisp will make you rich, hackers are basically like painters because I'm both and we're both hyper-intelligent and so on and so fo
20:00:09 <ehird> These were, of course, massively popular. He then started Y Combinator, a venture capital that funded reddit and others. He took five years to construct his language, Arc, based on the oh-so-stupid principle of "if we give everything short names and make them only work to do exactly what I want them to do and have no flexibility whatsoever, my language will be expressive and short". He had the hubris to call Arc a "hundred-year language", despite it not supp
20:00:11 <ehird> Unicode and coming with the ability to produce basically nothing that isn't a trivial web app using tables for layout and dumps of Arc data in flatfiles for a database. After these laborious five years, accompanied of course by epic dosages of hype along the way, he released a few-thousand line compiler written in Scheme that compiled Arc to Scheme, even going so far as to use MzScheme's parser - a work trivial beyond comprehension. He defended this by sayin
20:00:17 <ehird> writing the code was easy, it was just figuring out what to write that took so long. The obvious rebuttal is that it's a stupid, tiny language that consists of a meagre standard library with short names and a small continuation-based combined web server/framework that encourages using tables for layout, and a retarded monkey could come up with that in a few minutes.
20:01:10 <ais523> on average, is it more or less expressive than INTERCAL?
20:01:28 <ehird> Uhh, more. Also, it seems my client cut off some characters from the ends of its automatically-split lines.
20:01:31 <ehird> But you can figure it out trivially.
20:02:09 <fizzie> Your messages, they were mostly cut in twain. "and so f", "it not sup", "this by sayi".
20:02:20 <ehird> I didn't know Mark Twain did that.
20:02:49 <fizzie> You must've somehow post-dated that comment about it, I didn't see it at all.
20:03:03 <ehird> I posted it on a date, yes.
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20:10:37 <ehird> impomatic: You are the master of the bounce
20:13:07 <AnMaster> * impomatic has quit ("mov.i #1,1") <-- hnu
20:14:04 <ehird> Hnuh is not a pronounceable word.
20:14:30 <Deewiant> He quit using his usual quit message?
20:15:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well maybe, but what does that asm bit do?
20:16:33 <impomatic> I had to restart the net again. My gf can't connect and isn't happy about it!
20:17:44 <AnMaster> impomatic, what does it do though?
20:18:55 <impomatic> When it executes, it copies itself over the next location in memory.
20:19:12 <ais523> and that's the next location that executes
20:19:17 <ais523> it's basically a minimal SMITH-style loop
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20:26:11 <AnMaster> ehird, you know those google "frontends"? like lmgify and such
20:26:18 <AnMaster> I was googling and found a very silly one
20:26:47 <ehird> That's not a google frontend.
20:26:57 <ehird> That's a topic-specific search engine that looks like google.
20:27:03 <AnMaster> ehird, well I didn't try it. it looks like one though
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20:44:09 <Deewiant> http://cchronicles.com/files/114018167ba946835827b8e6ad733f09-20.html promises amusement
20:44:17 <Deewiant> A look at a variety of interesting programming languages being used for personal computers. Included are demonstrations of Microsoft's Office 2000 Developer, LEGO Mindstorms RCX Code Developer, Macromedia Flash 3.0, and Metrowerks CodeWarrior."
20:47:44 <ehird> Oh man, the top one is RISC
20:47:51 <ehird> RISC will solve everything!
20:47:59 <ehird> RISC will make your grandma come back to life!
20:48:04 <ehird> RISC will speed up your computer 5000%
20:48:19 <Deewiant> I read that as "RISC will speed up your grandma 5000%"
20:48:41 <ehird> http://cchronicles.com/files/3b442913b12648d4179b6f5736263c5f-64.html
20:48:41 <ehird> The first one here is... so small
20:48:47 <ehird> The keys are smaller than a finger
20:49:37 <ehird> I'm always surprised when the 80s are, well, stereotypically 80s
20:50:28 <ehird> yeah yeah more like the newton shut up
20:53:13 <Deewiant> "What we have with the CodeWarrior software is we have a website that comes with the software"
20:54:11 <Deewiant> Oh noes, the CodeWarrior guy is double-clicking on links in IE 5
20:54:34 <ehird> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
20:54:48 <ehird> mentions the dynabook
20:55:24 <ehird> Hmph, it has videos as late as 1996
20:55:38 <ehird> I think at a certain point in the 90s computers stopped being awesomely retro and just became boring
20:55:49 <ehird> Deewiant: Well yeah, which is even worse
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21:00:51 <Deewiant> http://www.archive.org/details/computerchronicles has the same content with a different design
21:01:47 <Deewiant> "The programming challenges in the Internet era are about things like adding cool graphics, animations, sounds and activity to your web site"
21:03:01 <Deewiant> And they have Flash pages with background music, of course
21:03:10 <ehird> Deewiant: The blog just embeds from archive.or
21:03:24 <ehird> But the UI is nicer
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21:12:22 -!- okloFLOP has changed nick to oklopol.
21:13:08 <oklopol> cool graphics and activity are serious business
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21:14:25 <oerjan> <ehird> AAAAAA <- BWAHAHAHAHA
21:14:45 <oerjan> <ehird> I just clicked it
21:19:52 <oerjan> <ehird> [[Bridge guard Wong Man said: "The butter makes the bars and frames slippery and hard to climb onto, and we can easily catch them."]]
21:20:02 <ehird> Ooh, another Paul Graham gem:
21:20:07 <ehird> [[The News server currently crashes a couple times a day when it runs
21:20:08 <ehird> out of memory. All the comments and stories no longer fit in the 2 GB
21:20:08 <ehird> we can get on a 32 bit machine.]]
21:20:10 <ehird> "Because what is a disk"
21:20:19 <oerjan> ok that _is_ a bit better than the stereotype my prejudices assumed ;D
21:20:45 <oerjan> (i.e. that they would do it so the suiciders would slip off the bridge faster)
21:24:14 <oerjan> butter daisy, presumably
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21:26:59 <ehird> http://invalid.ed.ntnu.no/~jostein/qupload/files/slackware.jpg ;; This isn't fair, the screenshot is from Windows 3.1. Slackware might even be as advanced as NT 3.51!
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21:39:28 <svarg> anyone familiar with pre-c
21:44:36 <oerjan> <ehird> Hnuh is not a pronounceable word.
21:44:58 <oerjan> yeah that h at the end is awkward
21:45:22 <oerjan> (so say all good norsemen)
21:45:43 <oerjan> (while playing hnefatafl)
21:46:23 <ehird> svarg: first, what's pre-c, secondly, what does "was it from cobol" mean?
21:46:28 <oerjan> svarg: c came from b, which came from bcpl
21:46:43 <oerjan> which came from cpl iirc
21:46:56 <ehird> pre-c is presumably a language
21:46:59 <oerjan> although there is more than one language called cpl, also iirc
21:47:11 <ehird> svarg: do you mean what languages came before C?
21:47:18 <ehird> direct predecessors, or just every language before C?
21:47:57 <ehird> Algol came from Lisp and Fortran
21:48:15 <ehird> (I think, at least)
21:48:21 <Deewiant> Not much from Lisp, I don't think
21:48:32 <Deewiant> It may have been somewhat influenced by Fortran
21:48:34 <ehird> Algol has some weird shit
21:48:48 <ehird> well, fortran was the "general language"t ehn
21:48:56 <Deewiant> Fortran was 1957, Algol and Lisp were both 1958
21:49:10 <ehird> McCarthy did Algol too
21:49:22 <ehird> Note that Algol 58 sucked
21:49:26 <ehird> Nothing like 60, really
21:49:46 <ehird> Anyway, Lisp came out of LSD and Fortran and Fortran came out of, like, autocode
21:49:57 <ehird> And Autocode came out of someone's ass
21:50:27 <oerjan> ehird: LSD + lambda calculus, surely?
21:50:45 <ehird> Lisp has not that much to do with the lambda calculus, really
21:50:46 <Deewiant> Do you say "night" to the other 500 channels you've been idling on as well?
21:50:58 <ehird> Deewiant: He probably has a (configurable) script to do it.
21:50:58 <oerjan> ehird: ok, *broken* lambda calculus
21:51:20 <ehird> I know that I absolutely must know when AnMaster goes to sleep.
21:51:21 <oerjan> maybe the LSD had something to do with that...
21:51:24 <ehird> I basically plan my day around him.
21:51:57 <oerjan> i thought he was a bit early tonight
21:52:19 <oerjan> maybe he has early classes tomorrow
21:52:41 <AnMaster> <oerjan> (while playing hnefatafl) <-- hm? XD
21:52:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, you made that up really?
21:52:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Okay, you know what? Say goddamn "night" all the time
21:52:57 <ehird> As long as it means
21:53:02 <ehird> I AM ACTUALLY GOING TO TRY AND GO TO BED NOW
21:53:05 <oerjan> AnMaster: no, it's a real norse game
21:53:08 <ehird> HERE I AM GOING TO SAY A WORD NOW AND THEN STAY HERE
21:53:59 * oerjan confesses to sometimes saying good night, quitting, and then keeping on browsing the web in the other window
21:54:26 <oerjan> (well the good night is in the quit message, usually)
21:54:28 <ehird> AnMaster's "night" seems to mean "I double dare you to ping me. Come on. Come on, ping me. You're not going to ping me? I'll just say something anyway."
21:54:40 <ehird> Or perhaps "Hey, I observe that it is night time."
21:54:46 <ehird> That would make sense, sort of
21:55:03 <ehird> svarg: could you try typing in complete sentences?
21:55:15 <ehird> It sort of takes a few more seconds for you and saves all of us seconds of head scratching
21:55:20 <ehird> I have no idea what you just said
21:55:27 <oerjan> AnMaster: it was just the first norse word i could think of starting with hn (ok, maybe the only one)
21:56:12 <oerjan> svarg: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B_(programming_language)
21:56:14 <svarg> b+ was after B language
21:56:20 <svarg> i mean predecessor to c
21:56:39 <ehird> svarg: are you trolling
21:56:44 <oerjan> i thought B was directly before C
21:57:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, how do you pronounce it?
21:57:33 <ehird> There was no B+ or B++.
21:57:42 <ehird> C++'s predecessors were Simula-3 and C.
21:58:28 <oerjan> AnMaster: i assume the old norse pronounced the h. i think icelandic devoices the n.
22:06:48 <ehird> I love how plt scheme has ⌘\ → λ
22:09:02 <ehird> "Control, Option, Command" is the order of the modifier keys on Apple keyboards.
22:09:11 <ehird> Command is used for most shortcuts, etc.
22:09:23 <ehird> (i.e., what Control is for Windows/Linux)
22:09:39 <ehird> Option and Control being added modifier keys. The terminal passes Control-<key>s unscathed.
22:09:52 <Deewiant> Saying "Command-\" would've been noticeably more clear
22:09:54 <ehird> It's a nicer position than where Control usually is, at least for my hands.
22:09:59 <Deewiant> I was wondering what the place of interest sign had to do with lambdas
22:10:08 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, but the topic is shortcuts for Unicode characters, so it seemed appropriate.
22:10:13 <ehird> Also, the place of interest sign is pretty.
22:10:15 <Deewiant> I was thinking that it was some kind of digraph
22:11:02 <ehird> (Originally an Apple logo was used, and indeed an Apple logo adorns every Apple keyboard with that key until the latest revision - including the one I have - but Jobs axed that before it ever got out because he felt the overload of the logo in the menus "degraded" the logo to a commodity, so to speak.)
22:11:08 <ehird> (He is, um, crazy, if you haven't noticed.)
22:12:33 <AnMaster> I really like CapsLock for extra Ctrl. Means I have to stretch hand less awkwardly
22:14:07 <ehird> I could demonstrate why that is provably less ergonomic unless you have mutant hands, but I doubt you'd listen.
22:14:18 <ehird> oerjan: some would dispute "genius", but agreed
22:16:35 * ehird wonders wtf the first parameter to SYNTAX-RULES does
22:19:13 <Deewiant> Any identifiers in that list are marked as literals
22:19:48 <Deewiant> Meaning that if you use them in a template it matches against the value of the identifier
22:19:57 <Deewiant> Instead of being a pattern variable that matches anything
22:20:27 <ehird> (is it just me, or can syntax-rules thingies not transform the expression in any way?)
22:20:37 <ehird> (Like, you can't take a nested list and process that recursively into code)
22:20:58 <ehird> (Because (transform x) will turn into (transform <the actual expr>) and become code, not a code generator)
22:21:06 <ehird> I'm probably missing osmething obvious of course
22:21:53 <Deewiant> I'm still not sure what you're after
22:22:18 <ehird> e.g., (test (a b (c d e))) → (b a (d c e))
22:22:29 <ehird> take a list, transform that list, use it as code
22:26:07 <Deewiant> (define-syntax test (syntax-rules () (_ (a b c ...)) (b a (test (c ...))))) + a base case, or something
22:26:22 <Deewiant> I don't see why it shouldn't be possible
22:26:43 <ehird> Deewiant: Consider (a b c d e) → (b a c d e)
22:26:49 <ehird> You can do it for a fixed number of arguments, of course
22:27:29 <Deewiant> Then recurse into a different function
22:27:41 <Deewiant> That macro works for an arbitrary number of arguments
22:28:02 <ehird> It doesn't do the same thing
22:28:12 <ehird> It does (a b c d e) → (b a (d c e))
22:28:17 <ehird> Which is obviously possible
22:28:26 <ehird> But you can't do (map macro (foo ...))
22:29:13 <Deewiant> No, but you should be able to do a macro2 which does a map macro -ish thing
22:29:27 <Deewiant> I'm not 100% sure though and I can't be bothered to think on it now
22:29:49 <ehird> Deewiant: How? macro2 would just get (_ foo ...)
22:29:54 <ehird> Which is the exact same situation as macro
22:30:08 <Deewiant> Pattern match on whether foo is a list
22:30:27 <Deewiant> I guess you can do it as another case in one macro as well
22:30:40 <ehird> You know, this conversation is proceeding as "How do I do A?"" "Do X so that you can do A"
22:30:54 <Deewiant> I'll just let you figure it out then
22:31:00 <Deewiant> I intend to sleep for the next 7 hours ->
22:33:38 <oerjan> (define-syntax mapm (syntax-rules () (_ (macro (foo ...))) ((macro foo) ...))) or something, what's wrong with that admitting i have forgotten scheme macros years ago...
22:34:29 <ehird> I don't see how that can possibly work
22:34:48 <ehird> It expands (macro (foo a b c)) → ((macro foo) a b c)
22:35:37 <oerjan> oh, i thought ... did corresponding changes to everything as was done to the initial foo
22:35:46 <ehird> I don't actually know
22:36:17 <ehird> (mapm (macro (foo a b c))) → ((macro foo) a b c)
22:36:31 <ehird> I haven't tested it
22:37:54 <oerjan> i was hoping for (mapm macro (foo a b c)) anyway, whoever knows the syntax may adjust it...
22:39:22 <ehird> (define-syntax fluffy
22:39:22 <ehird> (syntax-rules (butt)
22:39:22 <ehird> [(_ (foo ...)) ((fluffy foo) ...)]))
22:40:03 <fizzie> Here's one too complicated thing:
22:40:05 <fizzie> > (define-syntax reverse (syntax-rules (rev) ((_ rev () x) x) ((_ rev (a . b) z) (reverse rev b ((reverse a) . z))) ((_ (list ...)) (reverse rev (list ...) ())) ((_ item) item)))
22:40:05 <fizzie> > (reverse (5 4 3 (2 1 +) +))
22:40:10 <ehird> well, in plt scheme Pretty Big at least; in R5RS you can't do the [] ofc
22:40:21 <ehird> but [] in drscheme alternate paren types and I'm too lazy to rebind it
22:40:34 <ehird> fizzie: fuck you, that's what I was writing :-(
22:40:39 <fizzie> I was just trying to illustrate that people use special-symbol thingamajicks to do multiple-cases-of-processing style things in a single macro.
22:40:46 <ehird> I was just doing (a b +) → (+ a b)
22:40:52 <ehird> instead of (a b +) -> (+ b a)
22:41:01 <ehird> But yeah, I think syntax-rules is kind of... awful?
22:41:11 <fizzie> It's hygienic, that's not awful.
22:41:13 <ehird> Feels very low-level doing things like that
22:41:35 <ehird> fizzie: Sure, but hygienic != gee, well, you can do simple rewriting unless you want to get TRICKY
22:41:37 <fizzie> You can look at syntax-case if you like, that's what all the big boys use. I've never bothered to learn it properly, though.
22:42:30 <fizzie> I guess they actually incorporated syntax-case in R6RS or something, I don't know.
22:42:35 <ehird> I get, from R5RS fans, a general vibe of "syntax-case is so impure and unsvelte :("
22:42:42 <ehird> Oh, if R6RS has it it probably sucks
22:44:21 <ehird> (Yeah I just wanted an excuse to use the word svelte, sue me)
22:44:26 <ehird> Also, I'm attempting to stop using semicolons
22:45:04 <ehird> Oh, I see how ... works
22:45:55 <ehird> "x ..." in the expansion, where x involves "foo ..." from the pattern, turns into "x_0 x_1 x_2 ..." for each foo, with the foo variable replaced with the element.
22:46:10 <ehird> I just though that "foo ..." was a weird two-atom name for all of 'em.
22:46:42 * ehird wonders why PLT has a memory limit of 128 meg by default
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22:52:56 <fizzie> Actually I think the deep-reverse macro is pretty much a direct translation of a reasonable deep-reverse function -- http://scheme.pastebin.com/m39b7123f -- except with list? and null? implemented with pattern-matching.
22:53:29 <ehird> Yes, and it'd be nice if you could do (expand (func x)) in a macro, but that's so unhygienic and stuff.
22:54:44 <fizzie> Just write defmacro/define-macro transformers, then. Expect people to start to sneeze, though; being unhygienic means you're propagating the what-was-it flu.
22:55:00 <ehird> Yeah, that sounds right.
22:55:14 <fizzie> Yeah, I guess so. For some reason I was thinking "horse".
22:55:22 <ehird> Oh, it may have been unicorn flu.
22:55:31 -!- ehird has set topic: UNICORN FLU http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
22:55:37 <fizzie> Unicorn flu makes you sneeze out rainbows. (Away.)
22:55:51 <ehird> Sneeze them out AwAY?
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