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01:00:20 <oerjan> <ehird> (I secretly wish that one day, the web will be almost entirely Flash-based, and you will be forced to resort to using: gopher; no electricity; no running water; no surrounding society. Am I a bad person?)
01:01:03 <oerjan> i'm afraid this will only lead to him making his own flash interpreter, probably together with zzo38.
01:02:21 <oerjan> probably based on gopher, though
01:03:08 <oerjan> <AnMaster> ehird, http://bugs.python.org/issue1453http://bugs.python.org/issue1453 <-- your opinion? That issue exists in 3.1 too btw
01:03:21 <oerjan> my opinion is that you need to learn to paste URLs better
01:04:43 <oerjan> my impression from one of the comments was it was based on a misunderstanding, with the flag going to configure instead of cc
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01:06:47 <oerjan> also see the last comment
01:22:06 <oerjan> darn french who cannot spell
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01:37:40 <zzo38> http://pastebin.ca/1554430
01:45:30 <zzo38> Ha, ha, it isn't about GameCube! Now push the Explode button and your TV will explode and money will come out.
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01:49:06 * oerjan doesn't have an Explode button, and suspects that is fortunate.
02:10:51 * oerjan once again manages to write "proof reading" in an edit summary
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09:34:54 <AnMaster> <oerjan> my opinion is that you need to learn to paste URLs better <-- I blame synergy
09:35:09 <AnMaster> <oerjan> my impression from one of the comments was it was based on a misunderstanding, with the flag going to configure instead of cc <-- yes but no one else does it like that
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11:01:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm I think I finally found a way to make string pushing significantly faster in cfunge. Sadly it is only for x86 and x86-64
11:02:17 <AnMaster> and I'm not sure if the env strings are usually as long as they are on my gentoo system that it would matter much elsewhere
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12:57:46 <Deewiant> http://sites.google.com/site/ryanbroomfield/xkcd-sans-women
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14:10:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm considering doing it
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14:10:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw how good are you at sed?
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14:11:35 <AnMaster> I'm wondering if there is any shorter way to write this in sed: sed '/^\//!d;s/\(.[ch]\)(\([0-9][0-9]*\)):/\1:\2:/;s/\(error\|remark\|warning\) #/\1: #/'
14:12:10 <AnMaster> (btw it is supposed to convert ICC style diagnostic output into a format that some tools that expect GCC style can understand)
14:12:26 <AnMaster> (oh and it actually works, just seems so messy)
14:21:50 <fizzie> Probably with "-r" you save a few backslashes -- just "(foo|bar|baz)" instead of "\(foo\|bar\|baz\)", though you need to escape the raw parens then -- but in general that looks a bit too simple to optimize much, unless you can combine those two s///s together (i.e. both are done on same lines). I don't quite know what the ICC output looks like.
14:23:11 <fizzie> And -r's not posix, of course.
14:23:40 <fizzie> (At least the 1003.1-2001 one.)
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14:27:19 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Probably with "-r" you save a few backslashes -- just "(foo|bar|baz)" instead of "\(foo\|bar\|baz\)", though you need to escape the raw parens then -- but in general that looks a bit too simple to optimize much, unless you can combine those two s///s together (i.e. both are done on same lines). I don't quite know what the ICC output looks like. <-- hm right, they are indeed
14:27:47 <fizzie> Then you can maybe combine them, though it might not look any prettier that way.
14:28:19 <AnMaster> as for -r, I doubt this will be useful on anything but linux. Or is ICC available for other platforms than windows and linux?
14:29:33 <fizzie> OS X, at least some versions at some point.
14:30:28 <fizzie> Oh, and there was some QNX thing too, but that can't be very popular.
14:36:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, and it depends on absolute paths in the output, to detect the relevant lines (which is true by default for cmake projects, which is where I needed this)
14:39:07 <fizzie> If you just want those lines for which the s/// matches -- I mean, it already has that ".[ch](digits)" test to see relevant lines -- you can write something like "s///; t ok;d;: ok" to save the /^\//!d test, but it looks a bit crufty with the jump.
14:39:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, the .ch bit was because there is (digits) sometimes later on the line too
14:40:10 <fizzie> Yes, but it might be good enough to pick up relevant lines already with that.
14:45:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw what would unlink(NULL); do?
14:45:37 <AnMaster> I mean is it undef or just error?
14:46:14 <fizzie> I guess it should logically return EFAULT in errno, but I wouldn't maybe count on that.
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14:46:57 <AnMaster> I wonder what icc means with "warning #12331: function "chdir" is vulnerable to race conditions"...
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14:50:26 <fizzie> Don't know; the only related race I can think of is in the "process creates a directory, then someone removes it and places a symlink to some existing wrong place, process then chdirs into the wrong place" case, but that's not so very chdir-related.
14:50:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw do you know if this is well defined: if ((foo == NULL) || (function_not_checking_parameter_for_null_first(foo) == 1)) { return ERROR_CODE; }
14:50:57 <GregorR> In a process with multiple threads, all threads share the same chdir.
14:51:18 <fizzie> Yes, I guess it could just be about that, but isn't that quite obvious.
14:51:20 <AnMaster> GregorR, except this program uses no threads...
14:51:32 <GregorR> When I think "race condition", I think "threads", making that quite obvious.
14:51:43 <GregorR> (Although of course there are other non-thread race conditions out there :P )
14:51:48 <AnMaster> and since it is produced during link time optimisation it should know that pthreads aren't linked
14:52:13 <GregorR> I'll bet icc compiles with threads whether you want it to or not :P
14:52:15 <fizzie> And yes, || is still short-circuiting, foo will not be null if function_not_checking_this_name_is_too_long is called.
14:52:47 <AnMaster> GregorR, actually no. It only does that if you use -parallel to auto-parallelise. Checked with ldd
14:53:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, right. Forgot if it was in C
14:54:55 <fizzie> Funny, can't seem to find any references to that #12331 chdir warning from the interwebs. It must not be a very popular ICC flag that enables it.
14:57:51 <AnMaster> it did find some useful things, like a few missing checks for NULL in places that needed them
14:58:16 <AnMaster> but almost everything else seems to be false warnings so far
14:58:51 <fizzie> That's funny, since it seems "sc1" is just about "critical errors", and that sounds like quite a just-in-case warning.
14:59:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, yep. I wonder what sc2 and above will do...
14:59:17 <AnMaster> I wonder why on earth I wrote this:
14:59:23 <AnMaster> case 0: handles[h]->file = fopen(filename, "rb"); break;
14:59:23 <AnMaster> case 1: handles[h]->file = fopen(filename, "wb"); break;
14:59:23 <AnMaster> case 2: handles[h]->file = fopen(filename, "ab"); break;
14:59:25 <fizzie> "Your variable names are not poetic enough."
14:59:49 <AnMaster> I mean clearly the mode bit should just be calculated then the call be made with a variable
15:00:11 <AnMaster> though that is possibly messier in C
15:15:24 <Deewiant> Probably because you didn't write it but rather copied it from CCBI :-P
15:18:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yeah would explain the bad coding style.
15:18:45 <Deewiant> case 0: file = c.fopen(name, "rb"); if (!file) goto default; break;
15:18:45 <Deewiant> case 1: file = c.fopen(name, "wb"); if (!file) goto default; break;
15:18:45 <Deewiant> case 2: file = c.fopen(name, "ab"); if (!file) goto default; c.rewind(file); break;
15:18:55 <Deewiant> Though the rewind may not be needed
15:19:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I have the rewind stuff further down
15:19:31 <AnMaster> if ((mode == 2) || (mode == 5))
15:19:57 <AnMaster> /home/arvid/src/own/cfunge/trunk/src/fingerprints/FILE/FILE.c:337: error: #12306: unvalidated value is received from call to an external function at (file:/home/arvid/src/own/cfunge/trunk/src/fingerprints/FILE/FILE.c line:326) which can be used in loop condition expression
15:20:11 * AnMaster tries to figure out what that was about
15:20:14 <Deewiant> You don't check ferror or something?
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15:20:31 <AnMaster> if ((bytes_read = fread(buf, sizeof(unsigned char), (size_t)n, fp)) != (size_t)n) {
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15:21:05 <AnMaster> since bytes_read is the bit that is found in the loop
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15:22:56 <ehird> 14:25:49 <AnMaster> ehird, http://bugs.python.org/issue1453http://bugs.python.org/issue1453 <-- your opinion? That issue exists in 3.1 too btw
15:23:18 <AnMaster> ehird, was already pointed out, and I blame synergy as I said
15:24:13 <ehird> 17:45:30 <zzo38> Ha, ha, it isn't about GameCube! Now push the Explode button and your TV will explode and money will come out.
15:24:14 <ehird> funnily enough, clicking the link did not make me understand this any more.
15:25:59 <ehird> 06:50:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw do you know if this is well defined: if ((foo == NULL) || (function_not_checking_parameter_for_null_first(foo) == 1)) { return ERROR_CODE; }
15:25:59 <ehird> wow, stop coding C
15:26:21 <AnMaster> ehird, well icc didn't claim it was.
15:26:42 <ehird> we've already established icc is overly pedantic
15:26:58 <AnMaster> ehird, I think it strayed into "plain wrong" there
15:27:14 <ehird> 07:15:24 <Deewiant> Probably because you didn't write it but rather copied it from CCBI :-P
15:27:14 <ehird> hey now, he might have changed the indentation style!
15:27:19 <ehird> hm nope, not even that
15:27:27 <ehird> he converted it to tabs
15:27:35 <ehird> significant modifications, here
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15:27:41 <ehird> Deewiant: er right
15:27:48 <ehird> I selected the space next to >
15:28:12 <AnMaster> ehird, you aren't even funny. Also isn't one of the points of open source to be able to share code ;P
15:28:40 <ehird> Generally it's considered polite to label things like that "ports"
15:28:52 <ehird> Except that'd be offensive to CCBI, which doesn't have half of its code as asm optimisations
15:30:16 <AnMaster> ehird, I do include a comment at the top of that file about many parts being based on CCBI. Reason here was that I implemented that RCS fingerprint before Mike Riley showed up here.
15:30:25 <AnMaster> when his docs were even worse.
15:30:37 <ehird> I'm further convinced that you don't actually read messages you reply to
15:31:06 <AnMaster> ehird, I generally skip lines with a too high sillyness quota
15:31:26 <ehird> Translation: I ignore lines I don't agree with
15:33:53 <AnMaster> ehird, if I did that I wouldn't be able to end up arguing with you for such long periods.
15:33:58 <ehird> Correction: I ignore lines I strongly don't agree with, especially if they're from people I dislike.
15:34:29 <AnMaster> ehird, Not really, but when you are sarcastic or just plain silly, then yes.
15:35:04 <ehird> Correction: If I continue to add qualifiers to this sentence I can justify [ignoring lines I strongly don't agree with, especially if they're from people I dislike].
15:35:33 <AnMaster> ehird, ... now you are getting close to silly again.
15:36:13 <ehird> You're... incredibly predictable.
15:37:16 <ehird> Here we find AnMaster using his staple argumentative technique, "argumentum ad I don't have any rebuttals so I'll make a bad joke and hope everyone forgets about the argument".
15:37:27 <ehird> (Said in Attenborough voice.)
15:38:08 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, you didn't answer the question about that bug above.
15:38:14 <AnMaster> http://bugs.python.org/issue1453 that is
15:38:33 <AnMaster> quite wtfy of python to only let CFLAGS passed to configure affect configure itself
15:38:36 <ehird> What is there to say? You linked me to a tedious, sundry bug.
15:38:43 <AnMaster> which is completely different to what everyone else does
15:43:42 <ehird> I guess I'll have to rieinstall windows
15:47:15 * ehird considers looking at older notebook models
15:47:34 <ehird> A 14" 4:3 notebook is the same width as a 12" 16:10 notebook and quite a bit taller...
15:47:55 <ehird> (+ prolly less bezel than a 12"; e.g. look at the X200's)
15:52:00 <ehird> A 14" 4:3 notebook is the same width as a 12" 16:10 notebook and quite a bit taller...
15:52:01 <ehird> (+ prolly less bezel than a 12"; e.g. look at the X200's)
15:52:07 <ehird> = more screen space while fitting on my lap
15:52:08 <AnMaster> err I meant about why reinstall
15:52:17 <ehird> because my keyboard stopped working
15:52:25 <AnMaster> ehird, heh... tried rebooting?
15:52:35 <ehird> yes. also repairing the drivers.
15:52:44 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe unplug it and plugging it in again?
15:52:57 <ehird> I turned it off and on again.
15:53:00 <ehird> And tried to repair.
15:53:04 <ehird> It "supposedly" worked, but not really.
15:53:20 <ehird> AnMaster: About that?
15:53:22 <AnMaster> how do you set up the initial pair connection thingy for bluetooth keyboard and mice
15:53:33 <ehird> For a keyboard, just click click click.
15:53:38 <ehird> It can generate a pairing key for you.
15:53:47 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean, enter key shown on screen or such?
15:53:58 <ehird> Yeah, they're like 8 digits long
15:54:08 <AnMaster> what about mice, how do you input it there?
15:54:24 <ehird> You just turn it on, maybe press a button on the back, and pair at the same time.
15:54:46 <ehird> But then two mice in range trying to pair at the same time is unlikely, after all.
15:55:27 <ehird> Issues with looking at older notebooks: run hotter and louder, lower specs, dimmer displays
15:55:37 <ehird> Hotter and dimmer being the main issues
15:55:49 <ehird> "256 or 512MB PC2-4200 memory standard, 2GB max
15:55:49 <ehird> 40, 60 or 80GB PATA HDD"
15:55:50 <AnMaster> ehird, unless someone is setting up a computer lab at some uni. But I guess usb mice are more common there to make it harder to steal
15:55:55 <ehird> Okay, well, more than 80GB would be nice.
15:56:25 <ehird> I guess I could use a SATA→PATA adapter and scrunch a big SSD in there with some ingenuity.
15:56:27 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, do you plan getting some notebook bag/backpack or similar?
15:56:40 <ehird> Sure, I can't exactly hold it all the time.
15:56:43 <AnMaster> because when I was looking for one to mine I only saw ones made for wide screen
15:56:53 <ehird> AnMaster: I could just get a regular bag
15:56:56 <AnMaster> of course you could just get a larger bag
15:57:08 <AnMaster> like a 15" one for a 12" laptop or similar
15:57:37 <ehird> The T43 is 32.9 x 26.8 x 3.6 cm.
15:57:39 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, but the ones made for notebooks tend to have some extra padding
15:58:01 <ehird> Eh, who cares about that. The only PC notebooks I'd really consider are ThinkPads, and they're sturdy.
15:58:14 <AnMaster> which is nice both for your back (in case of backpack at least) and for the notebook (for obvious reasons)
15:58:26 <ehird> Did you know, by the way, that the original iBook weighed a whole 3kg?
15:58:29 <ehird> It looks so... dinky.
15:58:35 <AnMaster> ehird, that sounds about right
15:59:15 <ehird> Huh, the T43 is 2.3kg. Old notebooks sure are heavy :P
15:59:40 <AnMaster> ehird, btw for clamshell ones: don't use the built in handle thingy
15:59:54 <ehird> I am not in the market for a clamshell iBook, AnMaster. "{
15:59:54 <AnMaster> at least mine shows some worrying cracks in the plastic handle.
16:00:11 <AnMaster> ehird, :( it would match your old powerpc mac perfectly
16:00:28 <AnMaster> sed '/^\/home\// !d;s/\(.[ch]\)(\([0-9][0-9]*\)):/\1:\2:/;s/\(error\|remark\|warning\) #/\1: #/'
16:00:28 <ehird> (Even if I was looking for a Mac and yet wanted an old notebook. Especially since they can't even run Snow Leopard, being PPC.)
16:00:50 <AnMaster> I select something in firefox and it pastes old stuff every time
16:00:54 <ehird> http://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/pagead/imgad?id=CKr185OFk9KEdRDIARjIATIIb2Sq8OBFTU4
16:00:57 <ehird> IT JUST SEXY AS HELL
16:01:43 <ehird> You know, there's an old ThinkPad in the local refurbished laptop shop; I think it was an X-something.
16:01:48 <AnMaster> Definitions of dinky on the Web:
16:01:48 <AnMaster> * small and insignificant; "we stayed in a dinky old hotel"
16:01:48 <AnMaster> * (British informal) pretty and neat; "what a dinky little hat"
16:01:48 <AnMaster> wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
16:02:00 <ehird> Ehh, all of them apart from the middle.
16:02:08 <ehird> It's... small. And cute-looking. Not 3kg looking. :P
16:02:21 <ehird> Actually there were two ThinkPads at that shop, but one was being used as a mousepad.
16:02:21 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't small. Well the 12" 800x600 screen is
16:02:31 <AnMaster> wide borders around the screen after all
16:03:00 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/IBook_G4.jpg The iBook G4's keyboard looks nice. Also holy crap that button is big.
16:03:10 <AnMaster> <ehird> Actually there were two ThinkPads at that shop, but one was being used as a mousepad. <-- sounds uncomfortable since the thinkpads I have seen are quite thick...
16:03:35 <ehird> Well, remember that yours was the "low-cost" model, so it compromises on weight and thickness, but no, not really.
16:03:37 <ehird> The desk wasn't very high.
16:03:43 <ehird> And the monitor was on top of some books.
16:03:51 <ehird> It wasn't as makeshift-looking as it sounds.
16:03:53 <AnMaster> ehird, I the button isn't as much "large" as the whole laptop is "small"
16:04:08 <ehird> That button is really deep compared to the trackpad, dood. :P
16:04:42 <ehird> No, that is not how you look at notebooks.
16:04:51 <ehird> You look at the screen. Deep.
16:05:05 <AnMaster> ehird, you are talking about the trackpad click button right?
16:05:08 <ehird> That is also how they measure how big the keyboard/pad area is. Deepness.
16:05:15 <ehird> You are using the wrong dimensions.
16:05:29 <ehird> ("In 2005 the Chinese manufacturer, Lenovo, purchased the ThinkPad brand from IBM, in a five year deal whereby IBM still helps in the marketing and support of these products." that explains the ibm.com)
16:05:35 <AnMaster> ehird, screen depth refers to number of bits per pixel...
16:05:42 <ehird> "Added the Windows key to all 60-series and newer laptops making all the Windows shortcuts possible. (Although possible before with the keyboard remapping utility)"
16:05:43 <ehird> Wow, only lenovo did that?
16:05:51 <ehird> AnMaster: You don't know what the word depth means? Really?
16:06:01 <ehird> "Ported the ThinkPad keyboard into stand-alone keyboards for desktop PCs in PS/2 or USB flavor. [12]"
16:06:04 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I do, like widthxheightxdepth
16:06:14 <ehird> http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?sitestyle=lenovo&lndocid=MIGR-45868
16:06:19 <AnMaster> but I fail to see which dimension is which here
16:06:24 <ehird> Best input device evar
16:06:43 <AnMaster> ehird, actually no, it is better to switch between trackpoint and touchpad IME
16:06:57 <ehird> And that lovely keyboard.
16:07:02 <ehird> Looks like no windows key, though.
16:07:07 <ehird> At least that doesn't look like a logo.
16:07:32 <AnMaster> ehird, and indeed, old thinkpads had no windows key iirc.
16:07:33 <ehird> A disturbing trend in keyboards recently: Microsoft are getting people to do the windows-logo-surrounded-by-orb thing PHYSICALLY.
16:07:52 <ehird> A convex bit of smooth plastic pressed into the key with the windows logo on it.
16:08:02 <ehird> What do you mean keys should feel good to type?
16:08:07 <ehird> MICROSOFT ARE GIVING US MONEY!
16:08:29 <AnMaster> ehird, what about ms ergonomic keyboards? If they still make them
16:08:40 <ehird> http://computersolutions.co.nz/images/newsletter/2007-10-14/Windows%20Key.jpg ;; example
16:09:28 <ehird> I bet old notebooks don't have very good battery life...
16:09:45 <AnMaster> ehird, on my thinkpad there is a circle around the windows logo, but it is made so that the windows logo is slightly below the surface of the key, hardly possible to notice at all.
16:09:56 <AnMaster> and the surface inside the circle is flat
16:10:00 <ehird> That's moving me slightly towards an Apple notebook, actually. All the MacBook Pros have 7 hours battery life apart from the 17" model, which has 8.
16:10:15 <AnMaster> but I guess they can't anything convex on a laptop :)
16:10:16 <ehird> (And yes, in testing they get near these in real world use.)
16:10:44 <ehird> (Graphs: http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=3580&p=4)
16:10:51 <Deewiant> ehird: That looks like it'd feel absolutely horrid
16:10:55 <Deewiant> OTOH it's not a very important key
16:11:04 <ehird> Deewiant: And it is on a Mac, e.g.
16:11:09 <ehird> Since it's option there
16:11:13 <ehird> (Alt becoming Command)
16:11:39 <AnMaster> you mean windows key is the super key :P
16:12:11 <ehird> Well, Option is Compose I guess.
16:12:41 <ehird> Except it's in shortcuts too.
16:12:45 <ehird> So Control, Compose and Meta.
16:13:10 <AnMaster> ehird, press compose release, type mu gives µ
16:13:25 <ehird> But Compose-' e = é, for example
16:13:30 <ehird> It's the same general idea
16:13:38 <ehird> "Do special characters, maybe with argument"
16:13:55 <ehird> And Command is the main shortcut key for, well, commands.
16:13:58 <ehird> So Meta definitely fits.
16:14:00 <AnMaster> I wonder where pi is with compose
16:14:22 <ehird> Of course, then you get silly combinations like Compose-Command-v because Compose is just arbitrary in a shortcut.
16:14:28 <fizzie> This Logitech illuminated has the windows-logo-emboss-thing, and I personally don't really notice it that much; it looks to have a bith smoother rim around the logo than in that picture, though.
16:14:42 <fizzie> And I use it much, since I've bound all window-manager shortcuts to that.
16:16:20 * ehird considers writing a paper on erroneously spatial interfaces
16:16:29 <ehird> Mostly because that term, that I just invented, is awesome.
16:17:42 <fizzie> The windows key keycap design is rather strictly regulated, see all 23 pages of http://download.microsoft.com/download/d/e/1/de1e0c8f-a222-47bc-b78b-1656d4cf3cf7/HardwareStartButtonV102.doc (if you can open a Word .doc, anyway)
16:18:14 <ehird> I want a keyboard whose icon for the Windows key is a turd.
16:18:20 <ehird> "Just press Turd-Q."
16:18:56 <fizzie> That document is one of the requirements if you want that "Windows Logo Program" thing, so you can put the logo on the box.
16:19:13 <ehird> SHAPE \* MERGEFORMAT
16:19:13 <ehird> Figure 1: Sample implementation of the Hardware Start Button
16:19:30 <ehird> Same idea, but instead of a turd, the text "SHAPE \* MERGEFORMAT".
16:19:42 <ehird> "Diameter of the Chamfer"
16:23:24 <fizzie> But see, it's not like they're strict about the stuff; you can use a "matte finish with a consistent texture of MT11000 or equivalent" instead of the "SPI A2 gloss finish". Well, of course only if you're distributing the keyboard in the EU area.
16:25:11 <ehird> "Why is it that in 2008 were there over 3 million searches on the keywords Obama Antichrist" and "Obama Messiah"?.......Does Barack Obama have an apocalyptic role given the global financial circumstances in which he has risen to power. Is he a man divinely appointed or an agent of the New World Order objective?"
16:25:17 <Deewiant> I'm sure Apple has an equally ridiculous thing, it's just internal because they make all their own keyboards :-P
16:25:34 <ehird> Deewiant: Not really, they've differed significantly
16:25:47 <ehird> For instance, on my previous keyboard it was "⌥ alt" or something, on this it's
16:26:27 <ehird> On this, it's "(hollow apple) ⌘", on the later ones, it's "command ⌘".
16:27:02 <fizzie> And even the Apple logo is pretty subtle. Certainly no polished domes for it.
16:27:28 <ehird> Yeah, the thing with the Apple keyboard is all done with Bluetooth Reality Distortion Fields.
16:27:39 <ehird> Basically you see Steve Jobs. All the time. And nothing else.
16:31:57 <AnMaster> ehird, but they would never let another company produce keyboards with apple logos I bet
16:32:09 <ehird> A company defending their logo
16:32:13 <ehird> Evil! Boycott Apple.
16:33:09 <AnMaster> yeah it's horrible. And it seems Microsoft are positively open compared to apple in this case ;P
16:35:17 <AnMaster> other silly warning from ICC: warning #12330: function "system" possibly accepts command line
16:35:25 <AnMaster> err yeah? that's the whole point isn't it?
16:36:34 <ehird> Would you like a strong AI compiler or something
16:37:28 <AnMaster> ehird, oh you mean it is intended for "don't use this in a web server" kind of thing warning?
16:37:35 <AnMaster> that could possibly explain it
16:37:41 <ehird> It's a "yo, man, be careful with this input"
16:37:52 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah that's what I meant
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17:08:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, do ORTH instructions reflect on error?
17:08:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well the output string one could
17:09:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the reason I asked was simply that ORTH is after all based on another language.
17:11:09 <Deewiant> I don't know what they do there
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17:24:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what about this ICC warning:
17:24:42 <AnMaster> "return value of function "clearerr" is ignored
17:24:51 <AnMaster> according to man page the prototype is:
17:25:15 <AnMaster> doesn't happen to any other void function as far as I can tell
17:25:35 <fizzie> It probably then isn't void "in reality", i.e. in the system headers.
17:25:57 <AnMaster> /usr/include/stdio.h:extern void clearerr (FILE *__stream) __THROW;
17:26:12 <fizzie> Curious. Maybe ICC's just very confused.
17:27:03 <AnMaster> maybe it provides it's own stdio headers? doesn't make any sense... but who knows... *greps*
17:27:07 <fizzie> Assuming you actually have <stdio.h> there included, but one would guess not having that would lead to other warnings.
17:27:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, that was at the sc3 level btw
17:28:40 <AnMaster> and no, grepping the whole icc directory didn't turn up any clearerr except stuff like "binary file /opt/intel/Compiler/11.1/046/bin/intel64/icc matches"
17:29:09 <AnMaster> $ nm -D /home/arvid/local/intel/Compiler/11.1/046/bin/intel64/icc | grep clearerr
17:29:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, unknown, it's gnu headers. would take way to long to track that down
17:29:44 <fizzie> There's also a lot of __BEGIN_NAMESPACE_STD macros.
17:30:14 <fizzie> They are probably using the same header for the <cstdio> thing, or whatever, and want the empty-throw-declaration there. Or something.
17:30:29 <AnMaster> __THROW seems to be defined in lots of places
17:30:48 <Deewiant> Try removing __THROw and see if it still complains
17:30:51 <AnMaster> from grep (keep in mind that there are no context lines here):
17:30:53 <AnMaster> /usr/include/sys/cdefs.h:# define __THROW __attribute__ ((__nothrow__))
17:30:53 <AnMaster> /usr/include/sys/cdefs.h:# define __THROW throw ()
17:31:10 <Deewiant> It just sounds like the type of thing that might be causing it.
17:31:20 <ehird> I like how throw = nothrow
17:31:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, __THROW is there for stuff it doesn't complain about though
17:31:33 <Deewiant> So maybe you aren't ignoring that stuff.
17:31:34 <AnMaster> ehird, well I think those two lines there just contradicted itself
17:31:39 <fizzie> I really think it's defined empty for the not-gcc case.
17:31:41 <Deewiant> Or it's using a different #defined value there.
17:31:47 <ehird> fizzie: icc says it's gcc.
17:31:48 <Deewiant> fizzie: ICC claims to be GCC, IIRC.
17:31:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, ICC defined __GNUC__ though
17:32:25 <fizzie> In that case it really shouldn't be confused by GCC attributes.
17:32:54 <AnMaster> which make all hell break loose in cfunge, except that I explicitly check for __INTEL_COMPILER
17:33:45 <fizzie> My headers define __THROW to "__attribute__ ((__nothrow__))" for (not C++, GCC >= 3.3); to "throw ()" for (C++, GCC >= 2.8) and to empty otherwise.
17:33:52 <AnMaster> wait, what does throw() in C++ mean?
17:33:59 <fizzie> Does not throw exceptions.
17:34:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, why not call it nothrow() or something then
17:34:20 <fizzie> It's "throw with an empty list".
17:34:31 <fizzie> Here's the list of exceptions we may throw: none.
17:34:46 <fizzie> Pretty much the same thing as __attribute__ ((nothrow)) I guess, though I don't know what the attribute actually does in non-C++ code.
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17:35:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, seems pretty unclear from gcc docs too
17:35:56 <fizzie> "The `nothrow' attribute is used to inform the compiler that a function cannot throw an exception."
17:36:00 <AnMaster> "The nothrow attribute is used to inform the compiler that a function cannot throw an exception. For example, most functions in the standard C library can be guaranteed not to throw an exception with the notable exceptions of qsort and bsearch that take function pointer arguments. The nothrow attribute is not implemented in GCC versions earlier than 3.3."
17:36:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, I wasn't aware C functions could throw exceptions
17:36:41 <fizzie> I guess it's for compiling C with -fexceptions.
17:36:56 <AnMaster> what would the point of THAT be...
17:36:58 <fizzie> "you may need to enable this option when compiling C code that needs to interoperate properly with exception handlers written in C++"
17:37:20 <AnMaster> I feel I should really repeat the above line :P
17:38:22 <fizzie> Actually, heh, it's in the cdefs.h header too: "For gcc 3.2 and up we even mark C functions as non-throwing using a function attribute since programs can use the -fexceptions options for C code as well."
17:38:40 <fizzie> I like it how the comment says "for gcc 3.2 and up" while the actual test is __GNUC_PREREQ (3, 3).
17:40:18 <fizzie> The system headers are always so messy.
17:40:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, much less so on freebsd though
17:40:32 <fizzie> /* These two macros are not used in glibc anymore. They are kept here
17:40:32 <fizzie> only because some other projects expect the macros to be defined. */
17:40:32 <fizzie> #define __P(args) args
17:40:32 <fizzie> #define __PMT(args) args
17:40:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, I guess those are related to prototypes somehow
17:41:26 <fizzie> Yes, I think people do wrap arguments in a __P() so it can be defined empty if you want to omit them.
17:41:34 <fizzie> Not sure what __PMT is for.
17:41:39 <AnMaster> #define __long_double_t long double
17:41:48 <AnMaster> /* This is not a typedef so `const __ptr_t' does the right thing. */
17:41:58 <AnMaster> well that explains the first, but not the second
17:42:33 <fizzie> It's probably so that "unsigned __long_double_t" will work. :p
17:43:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw what would the const do if it was a typedef
17:43:13 <AnMaster> make the actual variable itself const rather than the pointed to value?
17:43:50 <fizzie> I don't really like the whole "hide a pointer in typedef" thing anyway.
17:43:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, any way to make the actual pointer const if you don't want to use a typedef? Err would it be something like void* const?
17:44:21 <AnMaster> I seriously hate how C types are defined
17:45:00 <fizzie> Yes, void* const foo; would be it, I think.
17:45:10 <AnMaster> okay now ICC is just getting damn silly. It errors that while(true) is an infinite loop....
17:45:15 <fizzie> cdecl> explain void* const foo;
17:45:15 <fizzie> declare foo as const pointer to void
17:45:25 <AnMaster> has it never heard of main loops?
17:45:50 <AnMaster> ehird, same error, I just checked
17:45:58 <ehird> Sounds like a reasonable error to me
17:46:36 <AnMaster> ehird, not really, because when written like that it is usually intended. And it doesn't need a strong AI to detect. After all GCC does it.
17:46:45 <ehird> you put it on super-pedantic mode
17:46:58 <ehird> if you're an idiot and do that when you don't want it to be super pedantic
17:47:00 <ehird> shit's your fault.
17:47:05 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but the pedanticness should make sense IMO :P
17:54:14 <fizzie> In C++ you can write "const void *foo" and "void const *foo" and they mean the same thing; I *think* you can do the same in C too, though my version of cdecl doesn't understand the latter.
17:55:06 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... Is it trying to make C not-TC? :P
17:55:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, err you must have misunderstood what I was suggesting
17:55:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, not that C is TC without file IO. ;P
17:56:20 <pikhq> while(true); -- Getting rid of that means no TC
17:56:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, never suggested that. It was ICC who did
17:56:48 <pikhq> AnMaster: Sure it is. Via an annoying isomorphism with lambda calculus. :P
17:56:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, in fact the case was while(true) { blah blah }
17:57:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, you have limited memory since size of size_t must be finite
17:57:18 <pikhq> (specific implementations are not; damned finite stack)
17:58:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, in fact it is defined that sizeof(void*) must be finite.
17:58:46 <AnMaster> so it isn't just "no implementation is TC" here. (because that is true for every language then)
17:59:11 <pikhq> Yeah, sure. But not everything on the stack needs to be within that finite memory space.
18:00:10 <pikhq> ehird: Since C is not dynamic, one need not worry about making everything addressable. Just everything that's addressed.
18:00:39 <ehird> {int x$N} * sizeof(int*)+1
18:00:49 <ehird> {&x$N} * sizeof(int*)+1
18:01:14 <AnMaster> pikhq, since you can take an an address of anything on stack and pass it on to callees
18:01:30 <pikhq> That, of course, cannot be done infinitely. Fortunately, that's not needed for Turing completeness.
18:01:36 <ehird> AnMaster: that is not what he said
18:01:42 <ehird> pikhq: C is not TC, man.
18:01:50 <ehird> This has been proved, more or less.
18:02:19 <pikhq> ehird: It has functions and a call stack of potentially infinite size.
18:02:29 <ehird> That call stack must be pointerable.
18:02:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, also iirc it is valid to do something like: int i, j; int* base = &i; ssize_t diff = &j - &i; and then use base+diff to access j
18:02:37 <pikhq> Then GCC does not implement C.
18:02:39 <ehird> pikhq: Besides, functions are not enough.
18:02:44 <ehird> You have to PASS functions.
18:02:44 <AnMaster> though that is probably gray-zone
18:02:47 <ehird> And those functions must be POINTERS.
18:02:51 <ehird> and POINTERS are of finite size.
18:03:04 <pikhq> ehird: Okay, that's a much better argument.
18:03:04 <ehird> (You DO have to pass functions for the LC)
18:03:09 <pikhq> (read: not a non-sequitur)
18:04:11 <AnMaster> C is probably TC if you include the file IO though... iirc.
18:04:30 <ehird> If given an infinite filesystem.
18:05:01 <AnMaster> ehird, I suspect it isn't. Files are seekable. the offset in files is of the type off_t, which is also finite. There is a finite number of filenames you can fit into memory (since memory is finite)
18:05:22 <ehird> so use files of 1-byte.
18:05:33 <ehird> fopen("swap489573495834985739498732814683779831647842672645678926587932645","w")
18:05:43 <AnMaster> ehird, um? how would that help.
18:05:45 <ehird> ofc filenames are finite
18:05:51 <ehird> AnMaster: You don't need infinitely large files
18:06:09 <AnMaster> but you need infinite number of files then
18:06:20 <ehird> I'm sure it's been shown that the C file io is tc
18:06:45 <AnMaster> which is not possible if there is a finite number of possible filenames.
18:06:59 <fizzie> It's just "infinite number of possible filenames in memory".
18:07:12 <fizzie> You can do a tape with an infinite-depth chain of subdirectories, and move around it with chdir.
18:07:24 <ehird> or, index files pointing to new and old filenames
18:07:28 <ehird> so you can drop them from memory
18:07:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, that would work, but then you mean C + POSIX iirc
18:08:35 <AnMaster> the C standard describes no such thing as "directory"
18:08:44 <AnMaster> files yes, but not directories
18:09:39 <ehird> Does that mean you're leaving? Say yes.
18:09:57 <ehird> Yes, "yawn" means "I am leaving now".
18:10:24 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought it was "yawn, I'm feeling sleepy, see you tomorrow"
18:15:56 <AnMaster> oh btw I found out why ICC produced a binary for cfunge that was more than twice as slow as that gcc produced (on mycology that is)...
18:16:33 <AnMaster> I was hiding some attributes ICC didn't understand from it. When I hide those from GCC too... ICC and GCC are exactly even.
18:17:33 <AnMaster> good news is that last version of ICC now support them. And with those visible to ICC... ICC and GCC are exactly even but at the much shorter time.
18:17:51 <ehird> So did it take 0.006 instead of 0.003s
18:19:03 <Deewiant> Agree or disagree: 'If [the 80386] were an unencumbered design, it would have had a 32-bit "word", but as an extension of the 8086, its "word" continued to be considered as 16 bits.'
18:19:11 <ehird> Deewiant: Agree in what way
18:19:17 <ehird> Is it factually true? Should it have been that way?
18:19:35 <AnMaster> ehird, more than 5 times as slow. When you look at it that way, the difference is very large
18:19:36 <Deewiant> Is it true that most people consider the x86's word 16 bits
18:19:56 <Deewiant> I've never considered it 16 bits for the 32- or 64-bit machines
18:20:03 <ehird> Then I guess it isn't?
18:20:29 <Deewiant> The wikipedia article that's from and a comment in the discussion suggests that most people do, in fact, consider it 16-bit
18:20:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I guess this is mainly about the DOS/windows world, where int32_t is known as DWORD
18:20:41 <ehird> That's not helpful
18:20:45 <fizzie> Deewiant: I don't know about "most people", but GDB considers "word" to be 32 bits; for example x/1w dumps out 32 bits; 16 bits is a half-word.
18:20:46 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, that's one place where it is like that.
18:21:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the entire windows API yes
18:21:49 <fizzie> On the other hand, the official assembly mnemonics have several cases of things like stos{b,w,d,q} with 16-bit word, 32-bit dword and 64-bit qword.
18:22:13 <AnMaster> don't think it is used a lot on linux (the term word that is)
18:22:22 <Deewiant> And actually those Intel ones too, yes.
18:22:43 <Deewiant> stos[bwdq] being one of the few that comes with a size
18:22:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what does stos* do now again
18:23:04 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yeah, everybody's a C programmer so they just talk about size_t ;-)
18:23:11 <fizzie> Stores al/ax/eax/rax into di/edi/rdi.
18:23:36 <Deewiant> Th others store more than a byte. :-P
18:23:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well win32 api is C iirc
18:23:42 <fizzie> Er, and I guess there's some segment selector involved too, I don't remember which one.
18:24:07 <Deewiant> Quite, but they're like OpenGL in that they decided to make their own integer types for everything.
18:24:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, wait what... isn't that same as mov eax,edi?
18:24:31 <fizzie> Oh, it also increments edi.
18:24:35 <fizzie> With the suitable number.
18:24:50 <fizzie> The number of bytes in the thing you put there.
18:24:59 <fizzie> 1 for stosb, 2 for stosw, 4 for stosd, 8 for stosq.
18:25:10 <fizzie> Yes, there's also a direction flag you can set or clear.
18:25:22 <fizzie> Huh? It's the fast way to do memset, for one thing.
18:25:38 <Deewiant> Is it still the fast way, I wonder.
18:25:40 <ehird> It's like an alien tongue!
18:25:44 <ehird> Deewiant: unlikely
18:25:48 <fizzie> Well, it's *a* fast way anyway.
18:25:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nah, libc one uses SIMD nowdays
18:26:43 <fizzie> Anyway, the AMD "Architecture Programmer's Manual" defines "word" as "Two bytes, or 16 bits."
18:26:59 <fizzie> So it's certainly common; I'm sure you could add a [citation needed] for the "most people" part.
18:27:04 <AnMaster> how would rep stosb work... wouldn't it just be mov eax,edi followed by substracting 2 from edi? forever
18:27:05 <ehird> Yeah, but AMD is an asian knock-off company that uses child labor.
18:27:15 <fizzie> "rep" decrements ecx/rcx.
18:27:18 <Deewiant> Of course they do, since then they can say "stosw moves a word"
18:27:44 <ehird> They also deliberately disable Intel's security features.
18:27:53 <ehird> Why not quote from a manual you can buy in stores?
18:28:13 <AnMaster> oh you meant edi is used as an adress
18:28:31 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Stores al/ax/eax/rax into di/edi/rdi.
18:29:00 <fizzie> Yes, well, I was assuming an AI-complete reader.
18:29:37 <AnMaster> <ehird> They also deliberately disable Intel's security features. <-- I can't even imagine how you thought of that...
18:29:53 <ehird> Uhh, it's true. Don't tell me you've been deceived, AnMaster.
18:30:20 <ehird> [[If your son has requested a new "processor" from a company called "AMD", this is genuine cause for alarm. AMD is a third-world based company who make inferior, "knock-off" copies of American processor chips. They use child labor extensively in their third world sweatshops, and they deliberately disable the security features that American processor makers, such as Intel, use to prevent hacking. AMD chips are never sold in stores, and you will most likely be
18:30:20 <ehird> that you have to order them from internet sites.]]
18:30:22 <AnMaster> ehird, I have no idea what you are talking about simply. What security feature to be specific?
18:30:22 <ehird> — http://www.adequacy.org/stories/2001.12.2.42056.2147.html
18:30:44 <ehird> ^add told to the cut off line
18:31:10 <ehird> The clog line ends with "be".
18:31:35 <ehird> Maybe it didn't send \r and your client stripped off the last two chars.
18:31:44 <fizzie> The line here ends with "b" too. Strange.
18:31:51 <AnMaster> ehird, possibly, I'm on xchat atm
18:32:30 <fizzie> Also the bip bouncer log line ends with "-- likely b", that's curious too.
18:32:51 <Deewiant> Did we find an off-by-one bug in various software? :-P
18:32:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, I don't do my logging in znc so can't check there
18:33:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I suspect it may be server side
18:33:18 <Deewiant> Yep, then it's some server that routed it that failed
18:33:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I suspect that server name may be included
18:33:34 <fizzie> Actually I think it might be the ident-message-prefix thing.
18:33:38 <fizzie> It adds at least a + there.
18:33:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, which means if the server happens to have a long name...
18:33:50 <ehird> Why are IRC lines limited anyway
18:33:52 <AnMaster> yes my client activates that feature too
18:33:52 <fizzie> And xchat toggles that feature on.
18:33:57 <ehird> Apart from bullshit historical reasons
18:34:15 <fizzie> Deewiant: There's a freenode thing which you can toggle on which makes the server prefix a + to messages from identified-to-nickserv people, and a - to others.
18:34:27 <AnMaster> I guess neither clog nor whatever client Deewiant uses implements that feature
18:34:30 <fizzie> Deewiant: With the intention that it'll be easy to see no-one's the faking.
18:34:36 <fizzie> CAPAB IDENTIFY-MSG or something, was it.
18:35:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is rather useful in irc bots. Make sure the user is really identified without having to do a whois after. for authentication with the irc bot
18:35:28 <AnMaster> whois could potentially have race conditions too
18:35:44 <ehird> Just use name like a real man, I'm sure nobody will /nick name and then !system rm -rf /
18:35:46 <fizzie> I don't think it's very widespread feature to have by-default, but of course there's an Irssi script.
18:36:13 <AnMaster> imagine: Evil guy sends message, gets ghosted by real nick owner, bot sends whois, real nick owner identifies, server replies to whois, bot allows evil command
18:36:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, I don't think I seen any other irc server than Hyperion implementing the feature.
18:37:30 <AnMaster> <ehird> Why are IRC lines limited anyway <ehird> Apart from bullshit historical reasons <-- for bullshit historical reasons
18:37:43 <ehird> then why do current servers abide by this limit
18:37:49 <AnMaster> and iirc there are clients that crash on overly long lines.
18:38:09 <AnMaster> ehird, NOTABUG (no I don't agree with this)
18:38:19 <Deewiant> Although I checked that it doesn't ever call the function that uses it
18:38:34 <Deewiant> It's just there for the linker warning
18:38:42 <AnMaster> or just some helper function intended for gdb call?
18:39:01 <ehird> To be fair, RCFunge 2's code is better, isn't it?
18:39:16 <Deewiant> It's a bit more modular, I guess
18:39:27 <Deewiant> Since it has to wrap everything in a struct for MVRS to work
18:39:31 <AnMaster> ehird, not really, it was trivial to crash it iirc
18:39:56 <ehird> Every software has bugs
18:39:57 <AnMaster> though that was some rc. Haven't tried any "stable" version of it
18:40:17 <AnMaster> ehird, well trivial as in providing a command line argument but no file or something like that
18:40:36 <ehird> AnMaster: That's sort of low down on the things I'd write if I was writing my own option parser code for an unstable version
18:40:56 <AnMaster> ehird, want to hear why it crashed?
18:41:08 <AnMaster> it was more or less filename = argv[argc-1];
18:41:23 <AnMaster> and it checked that there was at least one argument
18:41:37 <AnMaster> somehow that ended up crashing it if it started with a -
18:41:51 <ehird> See, most people write a command line interface that they can use for testing when using an unstable release
18:42:05 <ehird> I'd concentrate on e.g. the funge support, personally
18:42:21 <ehird> If they're the kind to write their own command line parsers.
18:42:41 <AnMaster> ehird, rc/funge doesn't run on windows iirc. So there is no reason to not use getopt() just as well.
18:42:42 <Deewiant> Mostly because Tango didn't have one, though, but anyway
18:42:48 <ehird> Oh snap, disproof by sample size of 1
18:42:58 <ehird> AnMaster: Because getopt's interface is shit, for one
18:43:10 <AnMaster> ehird, getopt_long interface is yes
18:43:14 <ehird> <AnMaster> I JUST SEE A BLANK WHITE PAGE
18:43:18 <ehird> AnMaster: And getopt
18:43:54 <ehird> 1. Duplication of naming the options
18:44:00 <ehird> in both the switch and getopt()
18:44:13 <ehird> 2. Incomprehensible suffixes like :, that look like options in themselves
18:44:39 <ehird> Irrelevant, in "bf:" : looks like an option
18:44:53 <ehird> It's an unreadable DSL
18:44:57 <ehird> Unless you already know
18:45:04 <ehird> Because it's arbitrary and unneeded
18:45:28 <ehird> Was that meant to be a counterargument?
18:45:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, of course it is readable. F: means it F takes an argument
18:45:45 <ehird> Deewiant: HEY NOW.
18:46:59 <AnMaster> the only issue here is that + means: "hey you! yes I mean you getopt of glibc! Follow POSIX today or else!"
18:47:02 <ehird> Plan 9's argument parsing is better
18:47:11 <ehird> I'll draft up something that doesn't look ugly
18:47:29 <AnMaster> ehird, so it will be completely unlike J then?
18:47:47 <ehird> J isn't unreadable just because you don't use \32.
18:48:18 <AnMaster> ehird, getopt's DSL isn't unreadable just because it doesn't use \32 either
18:48:36 <ehird> correct. It's unreadable for entirely different reasons
18:49:06 <AnMaster> because reading getopt's DSL is trivial
18:49:30 <AnMaster> I agree that the duplication in the switch statement is a small issue though
18:50:36 <AnMaster> ehird, you realise that saying J is readable and getopt's DSL isn't makes you a hypocrite?
18:51:00 <ehird> There are so many logical flaws with my statement that I'd rather hit myself on the head with a baseball bat than try and rebut it.
18:51:31 <ehird> But let's try with the first: "He thinks getopt is unreadable, I think J is unreadable, therefore he must think J is unreadable or he is a hypocrite".
18:51:39 <ehird> What's that? That doesn't logically follow at all? Oh my.
18:52:14 <AnMaster> ehird, you seemed to be indicating that your opinion on getopt above was some sort of "universal truth"
18:52:23 <AnMaster> I'm just trying to point out the flaw in this
18:52:58 <ehird> CAN SOMEONE PLEASE KNOCK ME OUT? I'M BEING TOLD, YET AGAIN, TO PREFIX EVERY-FUCKING-THING I SAY WITH "IN MY OPINION"!
18:53:11 <ehird> Go to hell. in my opinion.
18:53:20 <Deewiant> That's a postfix, not a prefix.
18:53:50 <AnMaster> yeah. Both are allowed. You could even insert it in the middle for variation.
18:54:28 <AnMaster> ehird, sed is unreadable unless you know it too
18:54:52 <ehird> Sing with me: Fallacy, fallacy, fallacy/Phallusy, phallusy, wait, what is this about again?
19:01:12 <AnMaster> getopt is a lot simpler to learn than J though. getopt DSL goes like: Every alphanumeric letter is a valid flag. : means the flag is supposed to have an argmuent. There is a few more things to it that aren't commonly used. But that is it. Oh and GNU adds a few other uncommon things. All of these uncommon things are about special meaning if first char of string is a non-alphanumeric char
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19:02:15 <AnMaster> personally I fail to see how that is hard to understand.
19:02:47 <AnMaster> rather the issue would be in how it reports what it found to the app. That is a bit more complex.
19:03:51 <oklofok> so if i sum up an innumerable amount of positive real numbers, why is the sum necessarily infinite?
19:04:02 <AnMaster> which is: getopt returns found flag, any argument is put in the global variable optarg (indeed, getopt isn't thread safe).
19:04:16 <oklofok> the general sum of X is the supremum of all sums of finite subsets of X
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19:05:41 <oklofok> i mean clearly you can't construct something like 0.5^-n for all n, because the decimal expansion needs to start having zeroes to its left, so you can find an injection to N by simply counting the zeroes... but that's very imprecise
19:06:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, would you say that it is easy to understand that example I gave above knowing this?
19:06:10 <ehird> oklofok: you exist??????????
19:06:30 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Uh, sure it's presumably quite simple
19:06:35 <oklofok> great idea taking a measure theory course with a background of one basic course in analysis
19:06:37 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:06:43 <Deewiant> But I thought the point was more intuitiveness and such
19:07:03 <ehird> Anything is intuitive if you can spend 5 minutes learning it! Yay!
19:07:18 <ehird> I look forward to the system where every call requires such explanation.
19:07:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if the API was supposed to be intutive, why would we have man pages
19:07:52 <ehird> Yah, it's not like things called edge cases exist for most calls or anything
19:08:02 <ehird> Clearly your plan results in the awful demise of man pages
19:08:17 <ehird> After all, it's easy to infer which arguments the order to go in and therefore your plan would obsolete them.
19:08:24 <ehird> Therefore, calls shouldn't be intuitive. QED
19:08:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well design some way to make it intutive to open a newly created file with user access only and fail if the file already exists
19:08:32 <Deewiant> "which arguments the order to go in"?
19:09:03 <Deewiant> open("file name", USER_ACCESS_ONLY | FAIL_IF_EXISTS | READ_WRITE_MODE);
19:09:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you would still need some place to document if it was FAILS_IF_EXISTS or FAIL_IF_EXISTING or similar
19:10:11 <ehird> Deewiant: Don't ask me, I'm just trying to translate AnMaster's argument "If APIs were intuitive we wouldn't need man pages. Therefore getopt shouldn't be intuitive."
19:10:13 <Deewiant> Quite, you still need documentation. But the difference here is that you can read the code and know what it does.
19:10:18 <ehird> And failing massively as every clause of that sentence is stupid
19:11:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, in truth I think it is open("file name", O_EXCL | O_RDWR, S_IRWXU);
19:11:18 <AnMaster> and yes it isn't very intutive
19:11:32 <ehird> I r wx u → I are with you
19:11:35 <AnMaster> S_IRWXU 00700 user (file owner) has read, write and execute permission
19:11:51 <ehird> Deewiant: I'M NOT SURE AnMaster RECIPROCATES YOUR DESIRE
19:12:51 <AnMaster> it means "user has read permission" btw
19:12:52 <ehird> Users are not toys.
19:13:12 <ehird> Whooooooooooosh x 2
19:13:18 <AnMaster> though of course that is what I was referencing
19:13:38 * ehird scours thinkwiki for 4:3 thinkpads
19:13:41 <AnMaster> S_IRUSR | S_IWUSR may be saner for most temp files
19:13:50 <AnMaster> ehird, you wanted good battery time?
19:13:58 <ehird> Yes, well, they're worth a look
19:14:02 <AnMaster> also I don't know if you can find new batteries for old computers
19:14:11 <ehird> Of course you can.......
19:14:19 <ehird> also, (I are user and I'm with user)?
19:14:21 <AnMaster> because apart from being initially worse, they also tend to get worse over time
19:14:34 <ehird> Is that like a... transformative masturbation fantasy?
19:14:35 <ehird> IT MAKES NO SENSE.
19:14:51 <AnMaster> ehird, um sounds more like some kind of deep zen thing to me
19:15:33 <ehird> "If *I* was in charge of the DL's computer, I wouldn't put on *only* Linux or *only* Windows or what have you. I think the DL needs a multiboot machine, and would really appreciate it if you tried to make him one with everything."
19:15:35 <AnMaster> ehird, I meant your "translation" of it
19:16:06 <oklofok> so, one guy on #math says what i ask doesn't make sense, other says what i'm trying to prove is true
19:16:17 <ehird> your mom is useless
19:16:41 <ehird> http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:240 ;; This looks good!
19:16:51 <ehird> High-res, no less.
19:16:57 <AnMaster> ehird, why do you want 4:3 btw
19:17:05 <AnMaster> since I thought you disliked non-widescreen
19:17:20 <ehird> 07:52:00 <ehird> A 14" 4:3 notebook is the same width as a 12" 16:10 notebook and quite a bit taller...
19:17:21 <ehird> 07:52:01 <ehird> (+ prolly less bezel than a 12"; e.g. look at the X200's)
19:17:21 <ehird> 07:52:07 <ehird> = more screen space while fitting on my lap
19:17:34 <AnMaster> ehird, # Intel Mobile Celeron 300, 366 or 400 CPU
19:17:37 <ehird> For big screens, yes, I prefer 16:10
19:17:56 <ehird> Since the extra height is mostly useless, and you can have 4:3 things side by side
19:18:00 <ehird> Neomagic MagicGraph128XD
19:18:07 <ehird> It's amused at its obsolescence.
19:18:25 <ehird> It is also a special card JUST TO DISPLAY GRAPHS!
19:18:36 <oklofok> after telling me the definition doesn't make sense, the guy asks "what's a supermum"
19:18:49 <oklofok> that just... sounded like supermom
19:18:57 <oklofok> Deewiant: yes, but that was a quote
19:19:02 <ehird> AnMaster: Up to 12GB hard drive, bitch
19:19:19 <AnMaster> I thought nun's weren't supposed to me mum's?
19:19:41 <AnMaster> ehird, but that would explain a lot about you :P
19:20:44 * ehird wonders how the T43 and T43p differ
19:21:15 <ehird> Hmm, the latter has a different gfx card
19:21:21 <ehird> And moar RAM by default
19:21:32 <ehird> But both support up to 2GB maximum
19:21:43 <ehird> Those Pentium Ms must run hot
19:21:56 <ehird> T60 looks shiny; Core 2 Duo, even.
19:22:03 <ehird> "14.1" TFT display with 1400x1050 resolution"
19:22:06 <ehird> Now that's some dpi.
19:22:37 <ehird> "512 MB or 1 GB PC2-5300 memory standard upgradable to 4 GB1"
19:22:59 <ehird> Looks nice. Quite heavy though; 2.45-2.5kg for the 9-cell on the 14" and the 6-cell probably sucks.
19:23:26 <ehird> There's also a t60p that only has the higher resolution and I don't know what else. Oh, it has that ATI card.
19:23:32 <ehird> I guess p meant "discrete graphics".
19:23:36 <ehird> "and higher specs"
19:23:43 <ehird> well, higher base specs
19:24:33 <ehird> ofc, an issue with all these is that they'll be second hand, and I doubt most ThinkPad owners are terribly careful with 'em...
19:25:01 <ehird> Hmm, The T60 gains a windows key at the expense of fn/control/alt becoming smaller
19:25:35 <ehird> "The ThinkPad T60 under review is a 15.0" variety with an SXGA+ (1400 x 1050) and has what Lenovo calls "FlexView" technology to provide very wide viewing angles"
19:25:41 <ehird> Wonder if I could find a 14" with that
19:25:52 <ehird> (Wonder how many nits they have)
19:26:07 <ehird> "Experiences may differ with a 14" size screen, there is no FlexView offering on that screen size."
19:27:29 <ehird> I have the 9-cell battery with the T60 being reviewed. It adds a bit of weight over the standard 6-cell and sticks out but if you want close to 4 hours of battery life with the 15" screen model you'll need this size. In using the T60 without Wi-Fi and at medium brightness (3rd notch of 7) it got 3 hours 42 minutes of battery life when used lightly (typing review, or idling). You can expect to get over 3 hours with Wi-Fi on and finishing a DVD with the 9-cell
19:27:29 <ehird> battery shouldn't be a problem, well, unless it's Lord of the Rings.
19:27:29 <ehird> The T60 14" screen size will do much better in terms of time of battery life per cell because a smaller screen just drains less battery. My guess is the 6-cell battery for the T60 14" will get you about what the 9-cell battery does for the 15" -- again, that's just a mildly educated guess.
19:27:47 <ehird> So I could expect like 5-6 hours with the 9 cell on the 14"
19:27:50 <ehird> Which isn't bad at all
19:28:16 <ehird> http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/9340.gif ;; clever interface!
19:28:37 <ehird> "Runs cool and quiet, no overheating issues even with a fast processor and dedicated video card"
19:28:49 <ehird> The T60 sure looks appealing
19:28:49 <Deewiant> It's not bad, but I always thought it was a bit pointless versus just a sorted list
19:29:09 <ehird> Deewiant: It's much easier to see which networks have a better signal
19:29:19 <ehird> As it can happen unconsciously, instead of looking at a meter
19:29:29 <Deewiant> Than from a list where the top one is the best and the worse are below?
19:29:38 <ehird> That doesn't give you an idea of scale
19:29:48 <ehird> e.g., you might think the Levkoff Network is only slightly worse than the belkin54g
19:30:05 <ehird> Sure, it affects the speed
19:30:25 <Deewiant> I mean, you'll try from fastest to next-fastest anyway
19:30:32 <ehird> If you're going to show it, might as well
19:30:47 <ehird> 14.1" - starting at 2.17kg/2.34kg (4.8 lb/5.2 lb)
19:30:54 <ehird> Could bring that down by replacing with an SSD
19:31:39 <Deewiant> They're much lighter than HDDs?
19:31:54 <ehird> A double-platter notebook HD is, like, 400g
19:31:59 <ehird> A single-platter, say 200g
19:32:04 <ehird> An SSD is roughly 80g
19:33:06 <Deewiant> How very noticeable, 200g versus 80g :-P
19:34:36 <ehird> Deewiant: Combine with e.g. removing the optical drive
19:34:57 <Deewiant> Which weighs what, another 80g? :-P
19:35:40 <ehird> Deewiant: No, more like 200g, I'd say
19:36:01 <ehird> And 2.02kg vs 2.34kg is definitely noticable
19:36:11 <ehird> Albeit only slightly, but still
19:36:26 <ehird> We're talking about grabbing with one hand and putting on your lap, small differences are quite noticeable, I'd say
19:37:31 <ehird> One issue with old notebooks is that they generally don't do wireless draft-n
19:37:40 <ehird> But they have ExpressCard slots too, so that's easily fixable.
19:37:42 <Deewiant> I do that with my evidently-3 kg R60 just fine; I honestly don't think weight matters that much
19:37:58 <ehird> At least unless you want 3g wireless too
19:38:01 <Deewiant> 5+ kg is probably the annoyance point
19:38:04 <ehird> Deewiant: It does, IMO
19:38:18 <ehird> I mean, psychologically, not physically
19:38:40 <Deewiant> I'd say dimensions matter more, psychologically
19:39:17 <Deewiant> If you mean the threshold of deciding whether to take it with you, for instance.
19:39:26 <ehird> There's a reason a lot of people buying the 1.36kg MacBook Air (after using, say, a 2.27kg MacBook - same dimensions) say "This is the first notebook I've come across that feels like I can carry it everywhere all day"
19:39:34 <ehird> (Not making it up, I've read two things saying that, at least)
19:39:48 <ehird> You could claim it's the thinness, I guess :P
19:39:54 <Deewiant> Yeah, it's that they're Mac-people. :-P
19:40:41 <ehird> I'm enough of a geek that I'd take just about any notebook anywhere with me, though. :P
19:41:23 <Deewiant> :-P is my most-used emoticon, I think
19:41:36 <Deewiant> Presumably because I can't think of anything else that really means "ha ha only serious" or whatever.
19:41:40 <ehird> You broke the :-?P chain.
19:41:59 <ehird> I think :P tends to be used to mean "If I say this jokingly it seems bad but I don't want to present it as untrue"
19:42:11 <ehird> Which, I guess, meshes with a sort of social-acceptability "ha ha only serious".
19:43:02 <ehird> Also, the R-series is quite amusing; for the budget line they're not very, well, budget.
19:43:10 <ehird> (belated reaction to "R60")
19:43:50 <ehird> It still exists, but yes, they're the "cost-cutting" budget line.
19:44:01 <ehird> i.e., heavier, thicker, and a few hundred dollars lighter.
19:44:18 <ehird> heh, "lighter" was a thinko
19:44:21 <ehird> but I like it that way
19:45:08 -!- calamari has joined.
19:45:29 * ehird reverses entropy; * calamari is now known as squid
19:45:50 <ehird> In other words, "hi"
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20:15:46 <fizzie> Re the wlan-finding UI, there was that bluetooth pairing screen in some mobile: http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2009/08/31/samsung-rogues-bluetooth-setup-will-be-second-nature-to-air-tra/
20:16:22 <ehird> Yes, well, on a mobile there's rather less space to do that non-stupidly.
20:17:19 <ehird> Also, Bluetooth is so slow it hardly matters.
20:17:23 <fizzie> That "list" doesn't really look very space-efficient to me.
20:18:02 <fizzie> The one in that link, with the only-five-characters-shown icons all around.
20:18:29 <ehird> "The Linutop 3, sporting a custom Linux OS atop a blistering 1GHz VIA C7 CPU, 1GB of RAM and a tremendously capacious 2GB SSD, is just that sort of machine."
20:18:41 <ehird> It's, uh, faster and has more storage space than my £150 crapbook.
20:18:44 <fizzie> Especially since the distances don't conform to anything; at least the wlan thing has the signal strenght.
20:19:08 <ehird> fizzie: Oh, well that's just useless
20:19:22 <ehird> (Fun facct: That "Linutop" costs a whole damn $485)
20:19:57 <fizzie> I think the local PC magazine reviewed Linutop in the newest issue.
20:20:25 <ehird> My review: It's crap and I can tell you this despite having not even used it.
20:20:35 <AnMaster> <ehird> "Experiences may differ with a 14" size screen, there is no FlexView offering on that screen size." <-- what is wrong with a 15"?
20:20:48 <AnMaster> I mean, it is a perfectly reasonable size
20:20:57 <ehird> AnMaster: Quite a lot heavier, and no, no it's not
20:21:07 <ehird> Not everyone has a gigantic lap
20:21:08 <fizzie> They did a comparison of Apple Mac mini, Asus Eee Box, CompuLab Fit-PC2 and Linutop 2.
20:21:11 <ehird> Also, lower battery life
20:21:24 <AnMaster> ehird, if you cal 15" gigantic. Then what do you call 17"?
20:21:40 <ehird> 17" is a stupid lugbook.
20:21:50 <ehird> fizzie: Mac mini vs Linutop?
20:22:03 <ehird> It's sort of like David and Goliath, except Goliath is awesome and David sucks cocks.
20:22:04 <fizzie> ehird: They're both physically small. :p
20:22:18 <ehird> AnMaster continues to pioneer context-free IRC clients.
20:22:22 <fizzie> Besides, the Linutop is smaller.
20:22:34 <ehird> The Linutop 3 isn't.
20:22:40 <AnMaster> ehird, I was away for quite a bit above
20:22:42 <ehird> http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/09/4sep09_linuto3.jpg
20:22:53 <ehird> AnMaster also continues to pioneer IRC clients that insert a blank line every second
20:23:18 <ehird> "The Linutop operating system is stored on an internal flash memory and cannot be altered by virus or mishap."
20:23:28 <AnMaster> ehird, no I'm too busy (read: can't be arsed) to read much of the scrollback
20:23:42 <fizzie> http://www.mbnet.fi/nettijatkot/2009/08/minikoneet/ (in Finnish) has, in the first picture, their set of reviewables.
20:23:55 <ehird> Takes a true blend of asshole to ask people to scroll up a few times for them
20:24:09 <ehird> WHAT THE FUCK GOOGLE'S TOP BAR IS GONE
20:24:21 <ehird> You can't switch to image search in a click any more...
20:24:34 <fizzie> Not gone for me here, at the very least.
20:24:48 <ehird> Switch to international google, retards
20:25:14 <ehird> Or one of their sample things.
20:25:17 <ehird> AB testing and the like.
20:25:43 <ehird> I don't think it has any holes.
20:25:50 <AnMaster> http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&tab=iw#hl=en&q=google
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20:26:17 <ehird> Any holes outside the UK would be far too big, I think.
20:26:44 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway synergy seriously messes up copy and paste
20:26:59 <ehird> (Extra bonus jokes: EVIDENTLY HANDS AREN'T THE ONLY HUGE FEATURE OF SWEDISH ANATOMY.)
20:27:40 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah it's true. I guess we can't hide it any more. But we do have huge brains.
20:28:05 <ehird> I'm not sure that's as much a "but" as an "also".
20:28:49 <AnMaster> ehird, in fact, dropping "but" may be the best way
20:29:08 <ehird> No, I mean meaningly
20:29:18 <ehird> "But we do have tiny brains." would work
20:29:25 <ehird> but not "But we do have huge brains."
20:29:41 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, yeah it's true. I guess we can't hide it any more: We do have huge brains.
20:29:52 <ehird> But also doesn't make sense.
20:30:11 <AnMaster> ehird, sure does. It is the other thing (apart from hands) that are huge
20:30:37 <ehird> But then I'd be inclined to say whoosh.
20:31:11 <fizzie> The Google top-bar "more ▼" link has an "even more »" option; reminds me of some interface-hall-of-shame GetRight Properties -> "Advanced"-tab -> "More"-button -> "Protocol / Icons / More / Even More" set of tabs.
20:31:13 <AnMaster> for not realising that I continued your joke in an unexpected direction
20:31:26 <ehird> I think you have to do a lot of yoga to be able to whoosh yourself.
20:32:11 <fizzie> Woosh is this ringh-shaped frisbee; from the Koosh people.
20:32:12 <ehird> Would seem like there's a much easier method to the same result most of the time.
20:33:10 <AnMaster> ehird, that would be true in general of yoga I suspect
20:33:19 <fizzie> AnMaster: I originally wrote "ringh-shabed", and my wetware can only fix one typo per word.
20:33:30 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm going to go ahead here and say whoosh
20:33:45 -!- ehird has set topic: #esoteric is ringh-shabed http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
20:33:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, doesn't - make it count as multiple words?
20:34:25 <fizzie> No, just spaces count. Sorry, my language output module is pretty limited.
20:34:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, like a (possibly) advanced version of fungot?
20:34:54 <fungot> AnMaster: shall we get back to the present? he's been known. we reptites will rule the world in a mere door that keeps us bound, hand, foot...and tongue kid? ...oh, it's you, isn't this morbid? the great adventurer toma levine rests in a grave to the north. it's a great place for a picnic! heard that magus's place...
20:35:06 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
20:35:13 <fizzie> Obviously Chrono Trigger.
20:35:21 <fizzie> You must not have played it if you had to ask ^style.
20:35:40 <ehird> It means a type of trigger.
20:35:42 <ehird> On a gun, you see.
20:35:46 <ehird> It makes the sound "chrono".
20:35:53 <ehird> Also it's a movie about tigers.
20:35:56 <ehird> Tigers that can talk.
20:35:57 <fizzie> Oh, I thought it makes it shoots cronons.
20:36:02 <ehird> fizzie: That also.
20:36:08 <AnMaster> ehird, um google seems to indicate it is a snes game?
20:36:20 <ehird> Maybe it's a game adaptation; it's old enough.
20:36:22 <ehird> Is it about tigers?
20:36:32 <fizzie> Come to Kenya, we've got lions.
20:36:36 <ehird> Furthermore, can they talk?
20:36:45 <ehird> fizzie: Ha! A quote from the sequel, Chrono Wossname.
20:37:17 <fizzie> Yes, probably. The quotation generator just returns the output; no multiple return values in *my* brain.
20:37:35 <AnMaster> I wonder, is there any DS emulator?
20:37:39 <fizzie> There's a Playstation port, too.
20:37:45 <fizzie> And yes, there are multiple DS emulators.
20:37:47 <ehird> Yes, there are DS emulators. Many.
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20:37:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about Wii emulators?
20:37:58 <Sgeo> OpenC2E should be able to run DS *watches ehird kill him*
20:38:03 <ehird> Soon we'll have to gay marry, what with all this <3ing.
20:38:04 <Sgeo> The DS bootstrap
20:38:25 <ehird> You don't need a Wii emulator if you have a functioning bladder.
20:38:27 <fizzie> DeSmuME is I guess the sensible open-source one; I have no clue what it's game compatibility is.
20:38:33 <ehird> http://www.dolphin-emu.com/news.php ;; wii emulator
20:38:58 <Sgeo> AnMaster, thanks.
20:39:09 <fizzie> DeSmuME's probably best feature is that it provides the GDB stub thing; you can attach GDBs for the ARM 7 and ARM 9 into it.
20:40:38 <Sgeo> http://tr.froup.com/tr806.gif
20:40:55 <fizzie> Though there's also No$gba (it does GBA and DS both) which they say is good for debugging; but that one is a Windows thing and costs money.
20:41:04 <AnMaster> Sgeo, err what has that got to do with the meaning I used the word "duck" in
20:41:11 <ehird> They just put the free download link below.
20:41:18 <Sgeo> http://tr.froup.com/tr794.gif
20:41:22 <Sgeo> AnMaster, nothing in particular
20:41:33 <ehird> fizzie: Also, the free version has less features.
20:41:46 <fizzie> Yes, the free one is the "for gamers" one.
20:42:03 <ehird> Gamers? More like gaymers.
20:42:06 <fizzie> The "for debugging" one has a $15 shareware home-use version, but it had some sort of silly restriction, can't remember what.
20:42:12 <ehird> BECAUSE THEY'RE GAY.
20:42:34 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm glad to hear they are happy.
20:42:44 <ehird> that joke got tired in 1960
20:42:52 <AnMaster> (and yes insert obvious joke about "glad" there)
20:43:12 <AnMaster> ehird, ooh that one I didn't think of :D
20:44:20 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadsby:_Champion_of_Youth is, incidentally, rather uncomfortable to read.
20:44:37 <AnMaster> ehird, ever read the great gatsby?
20:44:49 <ehird> I don't think so, actually.
20:44:53 <AnMaster> I would say it is rather tedious
20:44:59 <AnMaster> had to read it in school a few years ago
20:45:08 <AnMaster> in some English course or such
20:45:09 <ehird> Atlas Shrugged is tediouser!
20:45:26 <AnMaster> ehird, haven't heard of that one
20:45:28 <ehird> Especially that speech, I hear the first part of it lasts 8 minutes when spoken or something
20:45:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Ayn Rand's crazyfest.
20:45:52 <ehird> AnMaster: Summary: http://www.angryflower.com/atlass.gif
20:46:28 * Sgeo had to read Anthem at school
20:46:36 <ehird> Sue them for destroying your brain
20:46:42 <ehird> (This applies equally well to any bad programming course)
20:46:58 <ehird> Another Rand book.
20:47:39 <fizzie> If I'd get a nickel for any bad programming course I've been on, I'd probably have spent them already.
20:48:17 <Sgeo> ehird, I don't really know how to distinguish good programming courses from bad ones
20:48:20 <ehird> If I had a nickel for every time I've accidentally bungee jumped I'd be no better off
20:48:25 <ehird> Sgeo: What language?
20:48:45 <Sgeo> ehird, various. Or are you saying that that's the criterion?
20:49:02 <AnMaster> ehird, if I had a nickel for every time I argued with you I'd have at least $100 by now
20:49:16 <Sgeo> Java and C++ so far
20:49:29 <Sgeo> and SQL, though that's not really programming
20:49:40 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm not sure we've argued 2000 times
20:49:44 <Sgeo> and some Javascript in the Java course *facepalm*
20:49:46 <ehird> Sgeo: Almost certainly sucks
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20:50:22 <Sgeo> C++ isn't in the same course with Java+Javascript+ALICE)
20:50:33 <ehird> The C++ course has a slight chance of not sucking.
20:50:37 <ehird> The other one is brain-melting.
20:51:02 <fizzie> But goo is leaking from your ears.
20:51:06 <ehird> Maybe that's why you ask a lot of stupid questions :P
20:51:06 <Sgeo> And iirc, was the only one to get a good score on the AP
20:52:01 <fizzie> Advanced placement, isn't it?
20:52:04 <fizzie> Something like that, anyway.
20:52:05 <AnMaster> well I guess your laptop has good antennas then
20:52:22 <fizzie> I doubt they group course grades by wlan access points.
20:52:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, HEY! wait with explaining until after I finished my joke
20:53:09 <Sgeo> 7 minutes until I clean
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20:53:29 <AnMaster> ehird, btw I noticed recently at university my thinkpad has a lot better antennas than most other notebooks. Except those with pre-N.
20:53:57 <ehird> They're generally wrapped all over the plac.e
20:54:15 <AnMaster> ehird, hm? There are some parts of some of the houses that have bad coverage
20:54:23 <ehird> ThinkPad antennas.
20:54:51 <AnMaster> ehird, well one of them which couldn't connect had an older non-pre-N thinkpad.
20:55:13 <AnMaster> he had one of those 9-cell batteries
20:55:37 <ehird> 1. Eh, I don't need more range than 1 small building.
20:55:50 <ehird> I'll use 3G internet for everywhere else.
20:56:32 <AnMaster> ehird, well maybe it differs nowdays, but it was sticking out about 4 cm, and not straight out but more like __//
20:56:33 <fizzie> I don't think I've come across anything else than Scheme, C, C++, Java, Python, Prolog, MATLAB and some MIPS assembler on university courses. Well, except a really tiny bit of PL/SQL, and Sparc assembler on the compiler course since that was the target arch. It's been so very boring and mainstream.
20:56:43 <AnMaster> where that should have been _/ in fact
20:57:02 <ehird> What ThinkPad was this?
20:57:17 <ehird> Anyway, it doesn't matter when you have it plonked somewhere does it?
20:58:04 <AnMaster> ehird, one marked IBM. Don't remember exact model. Looked similar to mine though, slightly smaller, and had card reader below single PC-card slot on the side (instead of two express card slots on the side and a card reader a bit below the touchpad
20:59:07 <ehird> A random, rather-obvious observation: Erroneously spatial interfaces are even more noticeable on notebooks.
20:59:26 <ehird> *8:4 LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.
20:59:36 <ehird> There are no 16:9 ThinkPads
21:00:13 <ehird> Absolutely. The only 16:9 notebooks are shitty consumer notebooks, likely with Blu-Ray and other antifeatures.
21:00:21 <ehird> And they are, without exception, glossy.
21:00:28 <ehird> ThinkPads are business notebooks.
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21:01:15 <AnMaster> ehird, because one of the R500 models I looked at was 16:9 iirc...
21:01:36 <AnMaster> ehird, oh maybe it was a non-R500 then.
21:01:52 <ehird> AnMaster: No, not a ThinkPad.
21:02:06 <AnMaster> ehird, also there are thinkpads with blue-ray
21:02:13 <ehird> Not that I know of.
21:02:15 <AnMaster> for example that one with two screens
21:02:30 <ehird> Nothing about that contradicts what I said, though.
21:03:01 <ehird> You fail at reading:
21:03:09 <ehird> [21:00] ehird: Absolutely. The only 16:9 notebooks are shitty consumer notebooks, likely with Blu-Ray and other antifeatures.
21:03:34 <AnMaster> ehird, well, it isn't 16:9, but still blu-ray
21:03:48 <ehird> Affirmation of the consequent
21:04:13 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent
21:04:59 <AnMaster> ehird, so you mean it a 16:10 with blu-ray is ok?
21:05:23 <ehird> "Bad notebooks have BluRay" != "BluRay means it's a bad notebook"
21:05:27 <ehird> Fallacy; not what I said; kthx.
21:05:44 <ehird> (Tee hee: " A modem. - Make sure you get a so called 'WinModem'. These modems are enhanced to work better with Windows Millennium, and represent very good value for money.")
21:06:07 <AnMaster> ehird, oh btw I think my laptop has a modem of some kind
21:06:22 <AnMaster> ehird, haven't seen it in lspci or anywhere else inside linux though
21:06:24 <ais523> ehird: where's that quote from?
21:06:27 <ehird> ais523: http://www.adequacy.org/stories/2001.8.5.172749.2140.html
21:06:43 <ehird> Note because people really mistake this: Adequacy is not serious.
21:06:44 <AnMaster> ehird, is that some joke site?
21:07:05 <ehird> On the famous "Is Your Son a Computer Hacker", like 90% of the comments take it seriously.
21:07:59 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:08:26 <ehird> BSD, Lunix, Debian and Mandrake are all versions of an illegal hacker operation system, invented by a Soviet computer hacker named Linyos Torovoltos, before the Russians lost the Cold War. It is based on a program called "xenix", which was written by Microsoft for the US government. These programs are used by
21:08:26 <ehird> hackers to break into other people's computer systems to steal credit card numbers. They may also be used to break into people's stereos to steal their music,
21:08:27 <ehird> using the "mp3" program. Torovoltos is a notorious hacker, responsible for writing many hacker programs, such as "telnet", which is used by hackers to connect to machines on the internet without using a telephone.
21:08:27 <ehird> If your son has undergone a sudden change in his style of dress, you may have a hacker on your hands. Hackers tend to dress in bright, day-glo colors.
21:08:30 <ehird> They may wear baggy pants, bright colored shirts and spiky hair dyed in bright colors to match their clothes. They may take to carrying "glow-sticks" and some wear pacifiers around their necks.
21:08:33 <ehird> Popular hacker software includes "Comet Cursor", "Bonzi Buddy" and "Flash".
21:08:35 <ehird> are just some choice quotes, so I really can't see how anyone can believe it.
21:08:42 <ehird> Well, okay, I think I fell for it the first time.
21:09:10 <ehird> Like almost everyone in the 10 pages of comments
21:09:16 <ehird> Very long pages too
21:09:31 <ehird> By the end I was seething.
21:09:55 <AnMaster> ehird, what I'm asking is: joke site or lunatic?
21:10:04 <AnMaster> sometimes it is hard to tell the difference
21:10:06 <ehird> But I thought it was a lunatic years ago.
21:10:15 <ehird> (I didn't ever think it was true, of course)
21:10:30 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean... first time I saw that conservopedia (spelling?) I thought it was a joke site...
21:10:32 <ehird> Well, troll, rather.
21:10:39 <ehird> AnMaster: Half of the editors probably are
21:10:42 <AnMaster> that was making fun of extreme conservatives
21:10:45 <ehird> except the other half sees it and agrees with it
21:10:51 <ehird> AnMaster: Um, extreme?
21:10:58 <ehird> It's pretty mainstream Republican party stuff in the US.
21:11:08 <ehird> And yes, that is *very* fucking scary
21:11:15 <AnMaster> ehird, In the eyes of an European yes
21:11:29 <ehird> Even in the UK, which is also quite right-wing, it's insane
21:11:45 <AnMaster> ehird, yes and I think UK is pretty insane
21:11:48 <ais523> hmm... is there anywhere that's more right-wing on average than the US
21:11:55 <ehird> ais523: North Korea
21:12:07 <ais523> ehird: is that extreme right or extreme left, though?
21:12:28 <AnMaster> ais523, possibly it went past the point where you can see any difference
21:12:31 <ehird> I don't know economically, but it's pretty much pure fascism and oppression
21:12:40 <ehird> which is right-wing
21:12:45 <AnMaster> ehird, wasn't Sovjet that too?
21:12:51 <ais523> ehird: downtreading most of the populace is left-wing behaviour, though
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21:13:08 <ehird> Let's add another direction: fuckedupwards.
21:13:26 <ehird> From this we can conclude that North Korea and the Soviet Union were socially fuckedupwards on the left-right scale.
21:13:33 <ais523> an extreme right-wing North Korea wouldn't train up massive armies; it would instead say everyone had to join the army or they'd get no pay
21:13:37 <AnMaster> ehird, I think I saw some political two-axis chart thingy some time ago
21:13:46 <ehird> the political compass
21:13:53 <ehird> I'm further left than Gandi :P
21:14:05 <AnMaster> ehird, further down in that chart too?
21:14:18 <ehird> I was further left socially, dunno about economically
21:14:29 <Sgeo> ..I think a MIDI of this song sounds much different than the actual song
21:14:41 <ehird> I'm not socialist or communist economically, I'm a filthy regulated capitalist
21:14:42 <Ilari> Any sort of fundamentialists => trouble.
21:14:47 <AnMaster> ehird, I ended up further left for both parameters
21:15:07 <ehird> Ilari: You are a true thinker of this age for that stunning insight :P
21:15:11 <ehird> Sgeo: Like all midis
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21:15:27 <AnMaster> Sgeo, pretty much given due to there being no vocals in MIDI. Well except possibly GM <high number> "Voice synth: Ah" or something like that
21:15:31 <Sgeo> I think the vocals in the actual song are masking the part of the melody that I like
21:15:51 <Sgeo> I don't have the MIDI on-hand though :(
21:16:09 <AnMaster> Sgeo, what about that esolang using MIDI
21:16:31 <Sgeo> Isn't xfire the name of a chat thing for games?
21:16:58 <ais523> it was the name of a rather good gameshow here in the UK a few years ago, too
21:17:06 <xfire35> probably, I like it though
21:17:31 <Ilari> It isn't just right-wing fundamentialists that are scary. Just e.g. watch some creationist videos... At worst they maintain that the Earth doesn't rotate and that Earth is the center of the universe... Scary.
21:18:02 <ehird> The flat earth society, too
21:18:17 <ehird> Although that implies geocentrism and non-rotational...ism.
21:18:36 <Sgeo> I think most people in the flat earth society are just playing devil's advocate, to get people to think for themselves
21:18:38 <ehird> xfire35: Anyway, hi, this is about programming languages not esotericism.
21:18:43 <ehird> Sgeo: Most on the forums, yes.
21:18:48 <ehird> The society itself is dead.
21:18:56 <ehird> But there are the believers on the forum; they have their own subforum.
21:19:00 <ehird> It is downright scary.
21:19:21 <AnMaster> xfire35, are you here for esoteric programming languages or the other type? (If the latter you ended up in the wrong place)
21:19:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Pre-empted you.
21:19:49 * Sgeo doesn't even know what the other type is
21:19:54 <xfire35> I'm here about the programming languages. I've made one on the wiki
21:20:02 <ehird> Sgeo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esotericism
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21:20:30 <ehird> Auo is better than most first languages by far
21:21:01 <Sgeo> In the language of Sgeo, "asldf" means "Hello". There. Esoterica
21:21:44 <ehird> Sgeo: Funnily enough, that's as bad an esolang as it is esoterica
21:23:07 <Sgeo> Aren't all esoteric languages a sort of esoteric? Only those who've learned from somewhere know them
21:23:23 <Sgeo> Actually, all programming languages, come to think of it
21:23:23 <ehird> By that definition everything is esoteric
21:24:08 <Sgeo> Math might not be.
21:24:28 <ehird> Uh huh? People know maths without learning it?
21:25:04 <Sgeo> Well, mathematical concepts might be independently derived. Not the symbols, I guess. That's why I said "might not be"
21:25:17 <ehird> Everything can be independently derived
21:25:37 <xfire35> Some languages don't have numbers or the concept of counting within them.
21:27:04 <Ilari> Of the two esoteric langs I have come up with (I should describe them), neither has any concept of numbers nor arithmetic.
21:27:51 <ehird> i think he means natural langs
21:28:35 <Sgeo> Almost time to clean
21:28:41 <Sgeo> I'll go clean now
21:28:53 <AnMaster> actually that sounds like an interesting esolang idea. Something based on logarithms
21:29:05 <ehird> I like how Sgeo notified us for those crucial settings
21:29:07 <Ilari> Don't some natural languages have "one, two, many" or something like that?
21:29:10 <AnMaster> (now to come up with something interesting for those ideas)
21:29:37 <xfire35> I think it is Polynesian tribes or something.
21:30:30 <ehird> Someone should make a wifi router that gets its internet connection from a wifi-connected computer.
21:30:43 <ehird> Then you can e.g. share mobile internet at a meetup of some sort without plugging in your notebook.
21:30:44 <Ilari> OTOH, some classification had "class 0 natural numbers" go up to 6...
21:31:04 <xfire35> Isn't that an Access point?
21:31:25 <ehird> It might exist but I'm not so sure about the wifi-sourced connection bit; don't they use ethernet generally?
21:31:40 <ehird> ofc wireless routers that get their connection from ethernet exist
21:32:12 <ehird> What's the alternative?
21:32:14 <AnMaster> ehird, the computer can act as one can't it?
21:32:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Does that work?
21:32:32 <ehird> Ilari: So that's what that's for?
21:32:38 <ehird> If so, cool, never mind then.
21:32:47 <AnMaster> Ilari, well that and I'm pretty sure I heard about someone using a mac-mini (running freebsd) as a regular AP
21:32:53 <ehird> Don't you need, like, software or something?
21:33:15 <ehird> I guess there must be something for it.
21:33:18 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes. But that is just an <package manager of choice> command away
21:34:20 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean it is trivial to use the NAT module in iptables to set up a bridge
21:34:30 <Ilari> On the computer that acts as gateway... But other computers have to be configured to use it as gateway.
21:34:59 <Ilari> DHCP might work...
21:35:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not sure how trivial it is to set up the computer's wlan card as an AP though, but I'm pretty sure it is possible
21:35:21 <ehird> Ilari: Can't they just connect to it as a wifi network?
21:35:23 <AnMaster> Ilari, well yes dhcp is trivial to get working too
21:35:33 <AnMaster> ehird, pretty sure the answer is "yes"
21:35:48 <AnMaster> well, not for ad-hoc mode obviously
21:36:05 <ehird> How do you do it with ad-hoc mode?
21:36:18 <AnMaster> ehird, unsure. But ad-hoc mode is more like a p2p mode
21:37:21 <AnMaster> ah... iwconfig wlan0 mode (Managed|Ad-Hoc|Master|Repeater|Secondary|Monitor|Auto)
21:37:27 <AnMaster> ehird, that is how you set the mode
21:37:57 <AnMaster> I believe Master is the mode to use for acting as an AP
21:38:05 <AnMaster> and Managed is the normal mode
21:38:20 <ehird> An issue with that wifi-sourced AP, anyway, is that it'd need batteries and such.
21:38:23 <AnMaster> you could then setup NAT as well as a DHCP server
21:38:43 <AnMaster> unless it was connected to a power plug
21:38:45 <ehird> Which would be deathly if they ran down before your computer.
21:38:46 <fizzie> Yes, and "Master" doesn't work everywhere; but certainly for many chipsets.
21:39:25 <fizzie> For the zd1201 USB stick I have, for example, you need a special firmware file in order to get it to AP mode.
21:39:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, well I haven't tried anything but managed mode
21:40:44 <AnMaster> btw does anyone know if firewire 400 and firewire 800 devices can interoperate?
21:40:54 <AnMaster> in this case I was thinking about ethernet over firewire
21:41:09 <fizzie> I did OS X's "Internet sharing" from my 3G modem to WLAN at the department student seminar thing which was out there in the wilderness; I'm not sure whether that makes the computer look like an AP or just publishes an ad-hoc wlan network, since obviously I couldn't see it myself. Other people had no trouble connecting, though.
21:42:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, you don't have built in wlan?
21:42:24 <fizzie> Er, yes, of course, but there was no wlan available out there.
21:42:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, why the usb stick then?
21:42:41 <fizzie> So I had to use the built-in wlan to share the interwebs I got from the 3G stick to other people.
21:42:50 <AnMaster> ehird, "<fizzie> For the zd1201 USB stick I have, for example, you need a special firmware file in order to get it to AP mode."
21:42:57 <AnMaster> that sounded like it was a wlan thingy
21:43:00 <fizzie> That's from time before the iBook.
21:43:14 <ehird> fizzie: That was basically my hypothetical usecase, btw.
21:43:27 <ehird> Also, this iBook is one of the G4 ones and not a silly clamshell right?
21:43:27 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway yes of course it is possible.
21:43:46 <fizzie> Yes, it's the iBook G4.
21:44:06 <ehird> Shoulda got one of those scorching 12" PowerBooks :P
21:44:10 <AnMaster> ehird, I have a clamshell G3 one. Which would by that logic be even cooler
21:44:19 <ehird> There are no clamshell G4s
21:44:33 <fizzie> The "clamshell" model certainly looks more... professional, sure.
21:44:37 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Clamshell_iBook_G3.jpg → http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Ibook12.jpg → http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/IBook_G4.jpg
21:44:53 <ehird> (Note how ugly that second one's keyboard is!)
21:45:11 <fizzie> "Yes, all those strange squiggles in place of letters."
21:45:31 <ehird> But it looks crappy to type on.
21:46:30 <fizzie> Well, that's true. The G4 keyboard is not painful, though my space bar has a crack in the middle.
21:47:36 <ehird> By schorching I meant literally; those 12" PowerBook G4s — http://www.wap.org/journal/jan03/powerbookg500.jpg – were known to be unkind to thighs.
21:48:07 <fizzie> Pain is the price you pay for a spiffy laptop.
21:48:18 <ehird> In this case, I think "notebook".
21:48:38 <ehird> Because, you know, laps.
21:49:05 <fizzie> Just be sure to wear something non-flammable.
21:49:25 <ehird> "Gaim-Thinklight is a plugin for the multiprotocol messenger Gaim that makes the ThinkLight flash on incoming instant messages"
21:49:38 <ehird> Heh, it's by that german haskell... dude.
21:50:21 <ehird> Grr, archive.org respects robots.txt even for vanished sites
21:50:47 <fizzie> There is (was?) a kernel config option in the ppc-arch Linux kernel that made the "I'm sleeping" led in the iBook work as a HD led, flickering on disk activity. I think nowadays the led's been included in the sysfs-or-whatever-controllable things.
21:51:01 <ehird> The ThinkLight illuminates the whole keyboard, though.
21:51:06 <ehird> 'Tis rather more noticable.
21:51:21 <Sgeo> What is the ThinkLight usually used for?
21:52:22 <fizzie> Er, no. What made you think so?
21:52:41 <fizzie> Oh, that was just "ppc-architecture".
21:52:53 <fizzie> Though I think there are Arch users on channel, I've seen it talked about.
21:53:26 <fizzie> I'm more of a Debianist-by-tradition-if-not-for-other-reasons myself.
21:53:30 <fizzie> I wonder if this Logitech Illuminated backlight is somehow computer-controllable too. There's a special physical button to switch between "off" and the three intensity levels, it might be that they haven't bothered to build in any support for communicating back to the keyboard.
21:53:58 <ehird> [21:51] Sgeo: What is the ThinkLight usually used for?
21:54:01 <ehird> illuminating the whole keyboard.
21:54:09 <Sgeo> I mean, when it's controllled
21:54:28 <ehird> A notification, if you mean the gaim plugin.
21:54:40 <ehird> i.e., "Hey, you got IMed, look at your taskbar".
21:54:46 <Sgeo> What other programs use the ThinkLight like that?
21:54:51 <Sgeo> Is what I meant
21:55:14 <ehird> Sgeo: Related: http://tinyurl.com/mnos6w
21:56:40 <Sgeo> Apparently, Kopete, and Evolution *spit*
21:56:58 <ehird> I use Creationism instead.
21:57:03 <ehird> Well, "Creation" I guess.
21:57:24 <AnMaster> <fizzie> The "clamshell" model certainly looks more... professional, sure. <-- professional?
21:57:36 <ehird> It looks like a kid's fake laptop
21:57:38 <ehird> You know, those spelling tutor things
21:57:52 <Sgeo> What can Evolution do that Thunderbird+extensions can't do?
21:57:55 <fizzie> Er, this "lsusb -v" output for this keyboard is rather strange: there's 2 USB interfaces on the thing; first one is a HID-class Keyboard-protocol one (which makes sense) but the second one speaks the HID "Mouse" protocol. Both only do interrupt-transfers from the keyboard to computer, though.
21:57:56 <AnMaster> ehird, ooh that sounds familiar
21:58:17 <ehird> What can Linux do that Windows can't do, apart from not suck?
21:58:17 <xfire35> Do most people use linux/BSD distros on their computers here?
21:58:20 <Sgeo> (I mean, besides be all GNOME-exclusive-y)
21:58:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, hey don't steal my joke
21:58:36 <AnMaster> Sgeo, sync to pda without too much pain possibly
21:58:43 <ehird> xfire35: I use OS X, but on my new notebook will probably dual-boot Windows and Ubuntu or something.
21:58:56 <Sgeo> ehird, run the games that I want to play, without pain in either setting up WINE or setting up a VM
21:59:06 <Sgeo> AnMaster, Thunderbird has a caldendar extension
21:59:19 <ehird> Sgeo: Using your same method of talking, Thunderbird can't be called Evolution
21:59:20 <AnMaster> <xfire35> Do most people use linux/BSD distros on their computers here? <-- I certainly do
21:59:27 <ehird> Can you not comprehend that other people have different preferences?
21:59:29 <xfire35> But in linux, you could run it with a VM (XP) with less RAM required than Vista
21:59:29 <AnMaster> and I bet it is pretty common, not everyone though
22:00:08 <ehird> xfire35: But not much less than 7
22:00:16 <ehird> Anyway, VMs still don't work very well for 3D games.
22:00:37 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> What other programs use the ThinkLight like that? <-- anything that can be made to poke a file in /proc iirc
22:00:38 <xfire35> I can boot with less that 70mb RAM being used, that's into Openbox
22:00:57 <AnMaster> whatever, I prefer to use mine for what they are actually intended for
22:01:00 <fizzie> Probably in /sys, that's more modern.
22:01:06 <xfire35> Stick XP ontop, ~200mb, can 7 do it <300mb?
22:01:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think you can do it both ways
22:01:33 <ehird> People who I know use Linux in here: ais523, AnMaster, BeholdMyGlory, bsmntbombdood_, clog (:P), comex_, Deewiant, EgoBot (:P), fizzie, fungot, GregorR, HackEgo (:P), pikhq.
22:01:34 <fungot> ehird: i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself! geez! we must use? take off. get off! the name's bandeau. here to build the ocean palace! and if you wish! we shall hold this position to the last man! big fire where lavos fall from sky! we no can call you " knight cyrus fell while protecting our kingdom from magus. i'd stay away!
22:01:41 <fungot> ehird: but, we are far outnumbered! are you leaving! that sword alone can't stop, crono!
22:01:59 -!- oklofok has joined.
22:02:13 <fizzie> Sysfs-poking says the "keyboard" interface is event0, and the "mouse" in the keyboard is event1. What.
22:03:17 <fizzie> Hey, new people here → obligatory blurb: fungot's sources -- and don't start with the "sword alone can't stop" again -- are at http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
22:03:17 * Sgeo uses Linux sometimes
22:03:17 <fungot> fizzie: you! take! we find! see ya around! the trial! what has gotten away with this! a top secret document has been left behind? marle lucca
22:03:55 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Though I think there are Arch users on channel, I've seen it talked about. <-- me for example, I use Gentoo, Arch and Ubuntu.
22:04:31 <ehird> That sword alone can't stop! That sword alone can't stop! That sword alone can't stop! That sword alone can't stop! That sword alone can't stop! That sword alone can't stop! That sword alone can't stop! That sword alone can't stop! ...
22:04:34 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> I mean, when it's controllled <-- it is to light up your keyboard. When it is dark. Fn+PgUp toggles it on/off.
22:05:21 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Hey, new people here → obligatory blurb: fungot's sources -- and don't start with the "sword alone can't stop" again -- are at http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 <-- wait I missed that. What is the sword alone thingy?
22:05:21 <fungot> AnMaster: it's a machine that looks like you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out?! hey! is that for us! the chef's in a snit, trying to get food to the front lines. heard a spell to energize the sword takes immense evil! indeed! this thing. what you have the masamune!
22:05:34 -!- xfire35 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:05:36 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's what it often says in this ct style.
22:05:55 <fizzie> Well, sometimes, but repeatedly.
22:07:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, I really should try that game. What with everything now I don't dare try to get it though. If you see what I mean.
22:07:25 <fizzie> I really don'y grok this keyboard. All normal key comes via the event0 device; but few of the silly media-keys ("home", "email", "search", uh... "a guy", "calculator", "eject", "music", "rewind", "play/pause", "fast forward") but not all (for example "thing-with-many-windows" and "cog-in-front-of-screen") come through event1.
22:07:37 <fizzie> (The things in quotes are my interpretations of the icons here.)
22:08:41 <fizzie> There's just this icon of a person in there, how am I supposed to know what it means? I guess it could look a little like something I've seen in a MSN-messenger-related context.
22:09:22 <fizzie> Heh, and typically all other keys except those three generate some keysyms according to xev.
22:09:46 <fizzie> I think there was a picture of this already available, I'll try to find it. That camera battery is somewhere I'm not sure where.
22:10:23 <fizzie> http://www.everythingusb.com/images/list/logitech-illuminated-keyboard-full.jpg -- you can sort-of see them, though they're pretty small. I'm talking about the orange stuff on top of the function keys.
22:11:09 <AnMaster> wait, this sounds like a conspiracy!
22:11:14 <Deewiant> Why is there no insert button?
22:11:18 <fizzie> Okay, here's a big picture: http://www.ricdes.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/21.jpg
22:11:30 <fizzie> Deewiant: You're going to have to ask logitech; but it's there above del, actually.
22:11:36 <Deewiant> And why is there no scroll lock button
22:11:58 <fizzie> Deewiant: Scroll-lock's a Fn-style function on pause/break. And really, I have no clue what's up with the layout.
22:12:15 <fizzie> It just felt nice to write with, and they hadn't done *completely* horrible things to it.
22:12:34 <fizzie> The bottom row (with space bar) is raised a bit too much though.
22:12:40 <Deewiant> The caps lock button seems unnotched, which is nice
22:13:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, it doesn't look like full depth?
22:13:12 <fizzie> It has those mostly-in-laptops scissor-style keyswitches, which I sort-of like.
22:13:15 <AnMaster> with that I mean traditional one
22:13:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, can't stand then on full sized ones
22:13:28 <Deewiant> Yeah, they're alright; better than rubber dome, at least
22:13:38 <AnMaster> it's somehow ok on laptops though
22:14:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, also how can you survive without "insert"?
22:14:08 <Deewiant> What almost every non-laptop keyboard these days comes with.
22:14:32 <AnMaster> sadly this keyboard I have here is showing slight jwz tendencies on ctrl and shift. Far from as bad yet
22:14:45 <fizzie> AnMaster: I just press delete accidentally instead. (Okay, not *every* time, and there *is* insert, it's just in the wrong place.)
22:14:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how would that work?
22:14:49 <Deewiant> AnMaster: As we just discussed, insert is there, just dislocated.
22:15:22 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_technology#Dome-switch_keyboard ?
22:16:57 <fizzie> This is a weird sort of cross between the traditional and the modern turned-90-degrees strangeness, like the one seen in http://www.verkkokauppa.com/productimages/orig/23893_01.jpg
22:17:37 <fizzie> If that's the modern one. I'm not sure, I've just been seeing "2x3-sized-block instead of 3x2-sized block" keyboards in the recent years.
22:17:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, shudder that turned looks horrible
22:17:53 <fizzie> The fashion seems to have passed a bit now.
22:18:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm I think mine is rubber dome, yet it is quite nice to type on, compared to many other rubber dome ones.
22:18:26 <fizzie> There was some sort of "dump /dev/input/eventN format events in a human-readable form" app, but I can never remember the name.
22:19:03 <Deewiant> Yes, there are differences. But just about all rubber-dome switches suck compared to just about all mechanical switches.
22:19:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I never liked the clicky sound
22:19:29 <Deewiant> There are non-clicky mechanical switches as well.
22:22:18 <Deewiant> http://hothardware.com/cs/blogs/mrtg/archive/2009/03/09/mechanical-key-switch-keyboards-demystified.aspx has a Flash video in which a person demonstrates the sounds of various switches
22:22:52 <Deewiant> No rubber dome for comparison, though, IIRC.
22:23:04 <fizzie> Ah, it was called evdump. But dumping the events didn't help me much; it's like they've just arbitrarily decided to send a few of the USB key events through another endpoint, and one which says it speaks the "Mouse" HID protocol, yet still send key events. Or something.
22:24:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, heh. Got those keys working though?
22:24:27 <AnMaster> well I guess you wouldn't use them much
22:25:26 <AnMaster> all but one fn key combo works on my thinkpad. And that is Fn-PrtSc which is sysrq. Can't get magic sysrq to work
22:25:43 <fizzie> evdump says the thing-with-a-guy sends KEY_MESSENGER, but the two others send nothing recognizable.
22:25:59 <AnMaster> there is a KEY_MESSEGNER defined?
22:26:58 <ais523> from a markovbot in another channel: "Hold a decentlength intelligent conversation using six words or parentheses without being a lazy and don't pay the people entertained."
22:27:04 <AnMaster> and what sort of standard is it in?
22:27:17 <fizzie> #define KEY_MESSENGER 0x1ae /* AL Instant Messaging */
22:27:22 <fizzie> Obviously no sort of standard.
22:27:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, likely that other keyboards would define 0x1ae to be something else then?
22:28:11 <fizzie> It is possible that it's in the HID standards, actually.
22:28:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, is there a C compiler key?
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22:29:25 <Sgeo> Should I watch the MST3k episode for Future War?
22:29:54 <fizzie> I doubt that; just "launching" a C compiler is probably not that useful.
22:30:09 <fizzie> There is a KEY_DATABASE, though.
22:31:08 <fizzie> And anyway these are the linux kernel keysyms, from the input layer; it's the driver's problem to translate whatever physical the keyboard sends into KEY_MESSENGER properly. I guess I could check which bit of code does that.
22:32:39 <fizzie> Heh, yes; /dev/input/by-id shows the first one as "usb-Logitech_Logitech_Illuminated_Keyboard-event-kbd" and the second one as "usb-Logitech_Logitech_Illuminated_Keyboard-event-mouse".
22:32:45 <fizzie> That's one rather strange mouse, I think.
22:34:57 <ais523> fungot: give me some markovness
22:34:57 <fungot> ais523: see? i like marle better than " princess,' the chosen time has come! he's strong and he's gonna thrash those monsters! yea! is it?
22:35:01 <fizzie> There's a "hid-lg" driver doing -- in lg_wireless_mapping -- case 0x1014: lg_map_key_clear(KEY_MESSENGER); My keyboard could possibly be handled by that, even though it's not wireless.
22:35:10 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
22:35:16 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
22:35:20 <Deewiant> Chrono Trigger seems like the best corpus yet
22:35:42 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's a matter of taste; I don't think AnMaster liked it much, or ehird either.
22:36:32 <fizzie> Actually the messenger key might even be in the standards; from hid-input.c: "case HID_UP_CONSUMER: /* USB HUT v1.1, pages 56-62 */ -- case 0x1bc: map_key_clear(KEY_MESSENGER); break;"
22:36:34 <Deewiant> For one, it seems to be relatively verbose
22:36:44 <AnMaster> just don't get the reference due to never having played the game
22:36:53 <ais523> what is the messenger key?
22:37:03 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's also the only one done with the variable-length n-gram toolkit, though with probably suboptimal parameters.
22:37:25 <fizzie> ais523: There's this icon of a... well, a guy, in one of the "media keys" of my keyboard. We were wondering what it does.
22:37:46 <ais523> ah, the button for opening MSN Messenger
22:37:54 <ais523> it's one of Microsoft's latest attempts to do yet more subtle lock-in
22:38:10 <ais523> wow, I hate Messenger so much...
22:38:37 <fizzie> The logo is not actually exactly the MSN/Live Messenger buddy-icon guy.
22:38:49 <fizzie> I still think I've seen this particular one somewhere.
22:39:45 <fizzie> Well, maybe I've seen it on my keyboard. Eh.
22:39:56 <ais523> I've seen it on someone else's keyboard
22:40:07 <ais523> wow, keyboards are so complicated nowadays, it doesn't really seem to help
22:40:21 <ais523> because all the random extra buttons are so far away that just chording with another modifier key is faster to type
22:40:43 <ais523> even shift-F11 is faster than pressing the shortcut-menu key, on this relatively simple laptop keyboard
22:40:46 <ais523> because I don't have to move my hand
22:41:29 <fizzie> Oh yes, it is in the USB standard.
22:41:50 <AnMaster> shift-f11 seems to insert something cryptic in my terminal when I try it
22:41:50 <ais523> AnMaster: on Windows, they're the keyboard equivalent of right-clicking on whatever's keyboard-focused
22:42:01 <AnMaster> ais523, oh you mean my compose key ;P
22:42:03 <fizzie> HID usage tables, "consumer page", 1BC -- "AL [Application Launch] Instant Messaging".
22:42:30 <ais523> AnMaster: that's possibly quite a good key to use as a compose key
22:42:36 <ais523> but when I have a compose key at all, it's C-x 8
22:42:36 <AnMaster> ok I sucessfully managed to talk PPP with my phone, didn't manage to connect using it though
22:42:58 <AnMaster> but not internet with computer using it
22:43:22 <fizzie> There are rather strange keys in here; "AL" launch keys for: "Digital Wallet", "Online Community", "Market Monitor/Finance Browser", "Research/Search Browser", "Customized Corporate News Browser".
22:43:23 <AnMaster> ais523, caps lock as additional ctrl btw
22:44:20 <AnMaster> also for some reason enabling blue tooth makes the computer "hiss". Very odd. High pitched noise (think CRT)
22:44:36 <AnMaster> similar issue that I had with some usb devices (sometimes)
22:44:45 <AnMaster> and the bluetooth shows up in lsusb hm
22:47:08 <fizzie> Aaaactually hey, it might be that the keys that come through the other event device because the keysyms are from another "usage class" (consumer device, vs. keyboard). Still doesn't explain why it pretends to be a mouse, though.
22:47:32 <Deewiant> My old mouse pretended to be a keyboard, IIRC.
22:53:56 <ehird> [22:10] fizzie: http://www.everythingusb.com/images/list/logitech-illuminated-keyboard-full.jpg -- you can sort-of see them, though they're pretty small. I'm talking about the orange stuff on top of the function keys.
22:53:57 <ehird> I see no dudes, really ugly font, and ugh, I hate that layout of the del/home/end bit (have it on a keyboard here)
22:53:57 <ehird> [22:13] fizzie: It has those mostly-in-laptops scissor-style keyswitches, which I sort-of like.
22:53:57 <ehird> Scissor-switches are godly.
22:53:57 <ehird> [22:19] Deewiant: There are non-clicky mechanical switches as well.
22:53:59 <ehird> You still bottom out a hard surface, so it's clickier than rubber dome. Also, tactile switches are the devil; they're harder to type on, in my experience. But you can get non-clicky non-tactile mechanical switches too.
22:54:02 <ehird> [22:26] ais523: from a markovbot in another channel: "Hold a decentlength intelligent conversation using six words or parentheses without being a lazy and don't pay the people entertained."
22:54:05 <ehird> The first part is probably a direct quote.
22:54:25 <ais523> especially as "decentlength" isn't a correctly spelt word
22:54:39 <ais523> I thought it was an interesting concept, though
22:54:42 <ehird> It probably finished "lazy ass/bastard" or something.
22:55:12 -!- oklofok has joined.
22:56:44 <ehird> I wonder if you can buy a Model M-style keyboard to replace a laptop keyboard with :)
22:56:50 <ehird> IN A MEETING FAR, FAR AWAT
22:57:00 <ais523> ehird: you wouldn't replace the keyboard, you'd just use an external one
22:57:26 <ehird> And we are going to leverage the synergistic opperCLACK CLACK CLACKof the business poteCLACK CLACK CLACK and we SHUT THE FUCK UP, JOHN!
22:57:32 <ehird> ais523: That isn't portable.
22:57:53 <ehird> It always befuddles me when people buy a notebook and proceed to bog it down with a ton of stationary accessories.
22:58:38 <ais523> ehird: I'm somewhere in between; I can use my laptop either by itself or with accessories
22:58:40 <fizzie> ehird: There was a bigger picture later; the "guy" is in F4.
22:58:48 <ais523> I need an external mouse if I want to do mouse stuff at all, for instance
22:58:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, isn't one word missing from this fungot style?
22:59:00 <ais523> but overnight I'll just balance it on top of the duvet, and use it with nothing but the power cable
22:59:00 <ehird> That's not the MSN guy, at least.
22:59:07 <fungot> AnMaster: you, with you standing around! the trial! what has gotten away with this! a top secret document has been left behind? marle lucca
22:59:07 <fungot> AnMaster: your majesty! and queen. he and a friend left on a journey 10. all functions are down... got the terra arm and the crisis arm! found a dreamstone! i'd forgotten how beautiful they are the evildoers? magus's lair! you brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope.
22:59:12 <fizzie> Yes, it might just be some Logitech guy.
22:59:15 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
22:59:19 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
22:59:22 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
22:59:25 <fungot> AnMaster: the shape data in the corresponding ram at 57344-65535 ( e000-ffff). to do with the formula hibyte=int(ad/ 156) and an overflow error will occur. the opening of an and operation with the problem of mistaking the keyboard
22:59:27 <ehird> fizzie: Also, wow that Fn key is huge and replaces the windows/alt keys.
22:59:30 <ehird> I guess they hate ergonomics.
22:59:32 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
22:59:34 <fungot> AnMaster: not in the taskbar or alt-tab
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22:59:50 <ehird> ais523: I plan to use my notebook with nothing plugged in or associated (wirelessly), even the power cable (unless at a desk).
22:59:55 <fizzie> Yes, the fn thing is another drawback in this. I don't really use it.
23:00:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, whatever that word for "only happened once" was
23:00:11 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
23:00:20 <ehird> This makes my standards for the notebook a lot more stringent, which is good because I don't want to be stuck using something inferior outsid.
23:00:47 <ehird> Well, I also have a requirement to get a laptop, not a notebook, so I should probably say that.
23:00:50 <fizzie> AnMaster: Huhwat, what word?
23:01:24 <fizzie> Oh, "only happened once" like *that*. Right.
23:01:34 <ehird> Your mom only "happened" once.
23:01:38 <ehird> She isn't very good in bed.
23:01:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway why isn't it saying fnord at all now?
23:02:02 <fizzie> I didn't do the replace-rare-token-with-UNK with all models.
23:02:26 <fizzie> Particularly for ones like the Chrono Trigger script where there's so little of data.
23:02:29 <ehird> I wonder why there aren't any notebooks that come with cooling pads attached
23:02:39 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
23:02:45 <fizzie> fungot: Say something fnordy, please.
23:02:46 <fungot> fizzie: that's a piece of source code anywhere there's whitespace. i think
23:03:04 <fizzie> That wasn't fnordy. But it should still be saying it occasionally.
23:03:10 <oerjan> fungot: 'ardly hever 'appens
23:03:11 <fungot> oerjan: i am listening to johnny cash fnord prison blues. -w and use strict; mitigate that somewhat, but it
23:03:21 <fizzie> oerjan: You're better at this.
23:03:36 <ehird> Using Perl switches helps mitigate the effects of Johnny Cash's album Fnord Prison Blues.
23:04:12 <oerjan> fizzie: http://xkcd.com/628/ may be relevant here
23:04:27 <ehird> I can reference xkcd. I am culturally relevant ETC
23:04:43 <ehird> http://xkcdsucks.blogspot.com/2009/08/comic-628-i-predict-this-comic-sucks-i.html :P
23:05:01 <oerjan> no you cannot, you can only blather cynically
23:06:19 <ehird> Admittedly 628 was quite good.
23:11:37 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
23:12:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, and yeah that annotation was great
23:12:03 <oerjan> you say that as if it _matters_
23:12:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, I mean the deconstruction of the humour in the comment makes ryan north seem normal
23:12:58 <oerjan> i wasn't referring to your second line. how fast do you think i type?
23:13:14 -!- oklofok has joined.
23:13:19 <AnMaster> (and you asked for it, if you haven't read it before mentioning it... it is your own fault)
23:13:49 <AnMaster> oerjan, I never mention it before I read it myself
23:14:03 <AnMaster> though if I mention it first I don't provide any spoilers until I'm sure you read it too
23:14:31 -!- dbc has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
23:14:32 <AnMaster> but since you mentioned it first this time... of course that means I'm free to provide spoilers :P
23:14:42 <ehird> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3522/3890449002_949d56b7c7_o.jpg is #1 on reddit. Not like everyone saw this in 2007 when Leopard came out or anything...
23:15:11 <ehird> The comments are predictably "gee this is horrible mindbending advertising" followed up by "LOL YEAH MAC USERS ARE DUMB".
23:15:35 <ehird> (I like how the blue screened monitor is shiny.)
23:15:36 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3522/3890449002_949d56b7c7_o.jpg is #1 on reddit. Not like everyone saw this in 2007 when Leopard came out or anything... <--- is the icon for pc server actually like that on macs?
23:15:36 <oerjan> NANANANANA I CAN'T HEAR YOU
23:16:06 <AnMaster> ehird, and that is a CRT too right?
23:16:37 <ehird> I've never seen a flat CRT other than the old TV in my life.
23:16:43 <ehird> I'm a low-end curmudgeon!
23:16:48 <ehird> Or a whippersnapper. WHO KNOWS
23:16:51 <AnMaster> ehird, I seen both flat and curved CRTs
23:17:10 <ehird> I'd like to see one of those super-awesome high end flat CRTs just so I can laugh at it because it's still blurry and whiny.
23:17:23 <AnMaster> ehird, whiny yes, but not blurry
23:17:31 <AnMaster> that is my experience at least
23:17:38 <AnMaster> and less whiny than low end ones
23:17:40 <ehird> Every CRT I've seen has been extraordinarily blurry; is there really _that_ much variance?
23:17:48 <ehird> I'd think it's inherent, knowing how CRTs work.
23:17:52 <AnMaster> ehird, you never seen high end ones then
23:17:55 <ehird> They're not exactly LCD plotted pixels...
23:18:39 <ehird> Different from Template:See, this template takes a mutiple parameters of any length.
23:18:39 <AnMaster> ehird, that is true, but I'm talking about good ones at pre-press or similar. Seen those since I know someone working on a newspaper.
23:18:39 <ehird> Use commas and joining words like "and" or "or" as separators.
23:18:39 <ehird> Remember to wikilink the target pages; the template does not do it automatically.
23:18:55 <ehird> Section template samples
23:18:57 <ehird> AnMaster: "Yes" as in "indeed, I haven't".
23:19:17 <ehird> But really, IPS gets such good colour reproduction nowadays that anyone buying a new CRT in such a field is just stupid.
23:19:19 <AnMaster> ehird, "that is true" as in "<ehird> They're not exactly LCD plotted pixels..."
23:20:15 <AnMaster> ehird, also the colours were awesome. And calibrated with high end hang on thingy. Of course this was a few years ago. As in "when apple still made high end pre-press CRTs"
23:20:29 <ehird> Hey yeah, Apple did used to make CRTs.
23:21:03 <AnMaster> since I used first and second model imacs too
23:21:11 <ehird> The iMac CRTs are blurry.
23:21:18 <AnMaster> ehird, not as bad as most PC ones
23:21:26 <ehird> I have one (I broke its optical drive somehow after wiping the OS so it won't boot)
23:21:28 <AnMaster> and the good apple ones were MUCH better
23:21:42 <ehird> Apple seem to be rather a fan of high-quality displays; Apple's 24" glossy Cinema Display, aimed squarely at the secondary notebook display crowd, is IPS...
23:22:11 <ehird> — and therefore everyone goes "OMG APPLE MARKUP" because it costs $899, having now idea what the words IPS or TN mean.
23:22:38 <ais523> ehird: TN = twisted-nematic?
23:22:42 <ehird> Oh, it's also LED backlit, making it part of a very rare breed: LED-backlit IPS.
23:22:53 <ehird> IPS = Best LCD technology EVAR
23:23:03 <ehird> Huge gamut, really wide viewing angles (basically NO colour distortion)
23:23:12 <pikhq> So, that's a damned good monitor.
23:23:13 <ais523> I'm one of those people who knows enough electronics to know about twisted-nematics, but not enough ehirdness to know whether it's meant to be good or bad
23:23:15 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the downside now again?
23:23:25 <ais523> AnMaster: probably price
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23:23:43 <ehird> Downsides: It's very thick, so you'll only find it on separate units. It's heavy, so ditto. And the displays cost around $1,000.
23:24:02 <AnMaster> ehird, so not very "flat" screen then?
23:24:09 <ehird> It's flat, just a bit thick.
23:24:10 <pikhq> (which makes sense -- Apple has always been obsessive about their display quality)
23:24:21 <ehird> Apple's 24" is 19cm deep and probably the thinnest.
23:24:34 <ehird> Some are as thick as modern iMacs.
23:24:50 <ehird> http://www.apple.com/displays/
23:24:58 <ehird> ais523: TN has terrible colour reproduction, and the colours distort very quickly if you tilt them a bit
23:25:07 <ehird> but they're thin and cheap, so they're on almost all notebooks and desktops
23:25:14 <ais523> ehird: yes, it was invented for black-and-white, so I'm not at all surprised
23:25:29 <ehird> What you're looking at right now is almost certainly TN.
23:25:35 <ehird> I think the iMac displays are IPS.
23:25:41 <ehird> Mine certainly has all the properties of it.
23:25:44 <ais523> although, it's pretty good for looking at images with borked alphas
23:25:53 <ehird> The newer models are glossy, mine isn't.
23:25:59 <ehird> This is pretty much my favourite display ever.
23:26:07 <ais523> I can change the gamma of the screen through a massively large range just by tilting it
23:26:13 <fizzie> The side profile certainly looks like most of the 19cm is still the stand, http://images.apple.com/displays/gallery/images/image4_20081014.jpg
23:26:15 <ais523> also, this screen works in direct sunlight, which surprises me
23:26:21 <ehird> fizzie: Oh, I see.
23:26:29 <ehird> ais523: Is it glossy?
23:26:31 <ehird> AnMaster: See fizzie.
23:26:53 <pikhq> Huh. Just played with tilting my LCD screen a bit.
23:27:03 <ehird> ais523: Glossy displays tend to wash out in the sun as opposed to matte ones, which just get blocked out
23:27:05 <ais523> it basically just reflects the sunlight rather than using a backlight
23:27:13 <ehird> OTOH, glossy displays are awful indoors
23:27:17 <AnMaster> my laptop has more colour distortion than my desktop for some reason
23:27:35 <AnMaster> even though neither is IPS. Definitely not pricey enough for that
23:27:35 <ehird> Anyway, this iMac has, like, two dead pixels. And the colours are perfect. And it's really sharp. Only disadvantage is that the contrast is kind of crap.
23:27:37 <pikhq> ... I'm not noticing the usual LCD distortion. Maybe I'm just bad at noticing that on modern LCDs, because I'm pretty damned sure this is a crappy monitor.
23:27:52 <ehird> I wake it up from sleep in the morning and think "wow, those whites aren't very...white".
23:28:06 <ehird> pikhq: Try moving instead and looking at it from an angle
23:28:37 <AnMaster> ehird, contrast doesn't matter iirc?
23:28:42 <ehird> AnMaster: Backlight
23:28:45 <ehird> instead of display contrast
23:28:47 <ehird> AnMaster: oh, another disadvantage of IPS: response times
23:29:02 <ehird> Most IPSes are 16ms response time, give or take.
23:29:10 <ehird> Although their gray-to-gray response times are about 8ms.
23:29:13 <ais523> LCD is never going to get up to the response times of things like LEDs; but then, LEDs are impractical for screens smaller than a few metres
23:29:14 <ehird> Still, it's fine for everything but gaming.
23:29:25 <pikhq> It exists, but is barely noticable.
23:29:45 <ehird> ais523: They're thin, have good colours, incredibly good contrast and don't need any backlight.
23:29:51 <ehird> And they can be translucent.
23:29:59 <ehird> And use very low power.
23:30:02 <ehird> And are very lightweight.
23:30:05 <AnMaster> ehird, what about response time?
23:30:07 <ehird> Can't wait for them to become practical
23:30:19 <AnMaster> ehird, then why isn't everyone using them!?
23:30:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Very large expense right no
23:30:29 <ehird> Wait a year or two
23:30:38 <ais523> LEDs have response times so good that they're often pulsed at incredibly fast speeds rather than dimming them
23:30:40 <pikhq> That's not stopping them from being used, though.
23:30:49 <pikhq> Just in displays of reasonable cost.
23:31:02 <ehird> But yeah, OLEDs are like someone wrote in a deus ex machina to a book about displays.
23:31:20 <ais523> in fact, pulsing LEDs means you can put more power into them
23:31:34 <pikhq> (you can *get* OLED TV sets, they just cost a lot.)
23:31:42 <ehird> And they're only like 11"
23:31:42 <ais523> and if you want a really bright LED display, it works better to massively overdrive them about 20% of the time and let them recover the other 80%, then run them at max continuously
23:31:54 <ehird> I wonder if PVA (compromise between IPS and TN; a bit worse colour reproduction but faster response times) is thinner than IPS.
23:32:03 <ehird> I'm sure there's been some IPS ThinkPad at some point, though.
23:32:10 <ehird> Eh. High-quality TN is "acceptable".
23:32:39 <AnMaster> ehird, not when it comes to colour
23:32:48 <pikhq> I'm going to randomly guess I have high-quality TN, simply because the gamma distortion is only even barely noticable at rather high angles.
23:32:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Fine for most photography, at least.
23:32:59 <AnMaster> <pikhq> I'm going to randomly guess I have high-quality TN, simply because the gamma distortion is only even barely noticable at rather high angles. <-- same
23:33:06 <ehird> pikhq: How much did your display cost?
23:33:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Naturally.
23:33:17 <ehird> (http://static2.rubyrow.net/Advertisers/bluebox1.gif How ironic! The space is misplaced.)
23:33:23 <ehird> pikhq: You just have bad eyes, or got lucky.
23:33:28 <ehird> Your colour reproduction still sucks balls.
23:33:33 <AnMaster> ehird, when I talk about high quality monitors I mean the same thing that Apple do :P
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23:34:04 <pikhq> I can notice the crap color reproduction. Just not much distortion.
23:34:22 <pikhq> (I've seen it on other LCD displays. That's just... Horrifying)
23:34:22 <ehird> My display doesn't even dim until I'm practically perpendicular with it
23:34:40 <AnMaster> In general I found distortion is worse on laptops than desktops
23:34:49 <ehird> I wonder whether all those "LOL APPLE COMPUTERS ARE OVERPRICED" comparisons include an IPS display.
23:35:27 <pikhq> Eh, there is a good chunk of markup from Apple, but a lot of the price delta *is* from Apple just straight-up using more expensive parts.
23:35:50 <ehird> I think Apple adds something like 25-30%
23:35:55 <ehird> which is typical for high-end products
23:35:57 <pikhq> Sounds about right.
23:36:46 <fizzie> There's a 40" OLED 1920x1200 panel from Samsung. (Of course you can't *buy* it, it was just demoed in some sort of trade show from their pilot non-mass-production line.
23:37:06 <ehird> Samsung or someone are releasing a 19" OLED, iirc
23:37:07 <fizzie> No, 1920x1080. Anyway.
23:37:17 <ehird> fizzie: Nice 55dpi there.
23:37:27 <ehird> (Yeah, yeah, TV, I know.)
23:37:52 <AnMaster> wouldn't a 200 dpi TV be just awesome?
23:37:59 <fizzie> The 40" demo was already back in 2008, I guess they should be getting something produced sooner or later too.
23:38:42 <ehird> AnMaster: no, because anything above 1080p isn't available anywhere
23:38:56 <ehird> Besides, at around 175dpi you can't see pixels without a magnifying glass.
23:39:06 <ehird> Anything above that just gets much more expensive quickly.
23:39:12 <AnMaster> ehird, there is no kill like overkill
23:39:22 <ehird> You just made that up, please tell me you just made that up.
23:39:26 <ehird> Because it's STUPID.
23:39:28 <AnMaster> ehird, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.ThereIsNoKillLikeOverkill
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23:39:48 <ehird> Safari is so irritating after having used Chrome on XP.
23:39:57 <AnMaster> ehird, answer is: no, I just wanted to be able to link tvtroupes
23:40:03 <ehird> If there's one thing that setup was, it was snappy.
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23:40:36 <ehird> It's ropes onna TV.
23:41:00 <AnMaster> ehird, did you click that link?
23:41:10 <ehird> Yes, and closed it after having only clicked one more page, not in a tab.
23:41:16 <ehird> I am manly and I have willpower.
23:41:25 <ais523> AnMaster: you mean you were trying to tropise ehird
23:41:25 <ehird> By the way, if you don't correct it soon that typo will be forever typo'd.
23:41:35 <ehird> AND YOU WILL NEVER LIVE DOWN THE SHAME
23:41:56 <ais523> (incidentally, I've never visited TV Trpoes and don't know what all the fuss is about, but loads of people have warned me off it)
23:42:21 <ehird> ais523: It's addictive because they link almost everything and it's always to an interesting and funny article about that thing with tons of examples and you click it and
23:42:25 <AnMaster> ais523, it is just very... addicting
23:42:48 <AnMaster> ais523, you know that xkcd about clicking around on wikipedia for hours? Well it is kind of like that, but more extreme
23:43:07 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm unlikely to know about any particular xkcd unless it's been quoted so much that you get kickbanned for quoting it again
23:43:24 <fizzie> Ropes are the "very long strings" class in SGI's STL implementation.
23:43:25 <AnMaster> ais523, you can get kickbanned for quoting xkcd?
23:43:25 <ehird> Don't worry, you're not missing out on anything. xkcd suuuuuuucks lately.
23:43:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Tons of IRC channels are heavily policed in that way to make the conversation better.
23:43:49 <ais523> AnMaster: I've never seen it happen, but probably
23:44:02 <ehird> Experience shows that an anarchic environment is a lot less annoying and generally has at least as good conversation quality.
23:44:03 <ais523> AnMaster: which one's that?
23:44:05 <AnMaster> also that one is old enough to not suck
23:44:09 <ais523> I don't know the numbers off by heart yet
23:44:12 <ehird> ais523: It's about Batman
23:44:13 <AnMaster> ais523, ... the one about clicking around on wikipedia
23:44:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Stop it, you're feeding his I Will Not Use a Web Browser habit :P
23:44:58 <ehird> ais523: The thing with xkcd is that there's hardly ever a punchline.
23:45:05 <ehird> It's funny because, uhh, you're culturally in-the-know or something.
23:45:10 <ais523> I do get some of them, though
23:45:23 <ehird> You know what Wikipedia is! Sometimes I get to wildly different pages when clicking on Wikipedia.
23:45:25 <ehird> You may have done this!
23:45:33 <ehird> You can sympathise with me and understand my cultural position.
23:45:39 <ehird> Therefore: Ha ha ha! Humour!
23:45:43 <AnMaster> ais523, and I get that xkcd. Ever realised that you ended up clicking around for hours?
23:45:47 <ais523> oh, xkcd is meant to be funny?
23:45:51 <ais523> I thought it was meant to be insightful
23:46:00 <ehird> ais523: it fails even harder at that...
23:46:07 <ehird> AnMaster: That does not a joke make.
23:46:18 <AnMaster> ehird, no, but it is insightful
23:46:33 <ehird> Incidentally, something xkcdsucks pointed out: Every time a girl is named in xkcd, the name Megan is used. And: http://xkcd.com/215/
23:46:43 <ehird> Bawwwwwwwwwwwwww she broke up with me maybe if I mention her in my comic all the time ;_;
23:47:01 <ehird> I'd seriously bet he actually broke up with someone called Megan
23:47:31 <ais523> ehird: http://xkcd.com/322/ has a girl named Joanna
23:47:50 <ehird> Hmm, dark-haired girl then
23:47:54 <ehird> But still, almost all
23:48:03 <ehird> That comic, incidentally, also lacks a joke
23:48:14 <ehird> Unless his ANGER AT PEOPLE MAKING BAD JOKES ON THE INTERNET transforms into humour somehow
23:48:26 <ais523> yes; but I'm on xkcd's IRC network atm playing mafia, and comic 322 is the strongest-enforced rule there
23:49:18 <ehird> Willingly spending time around xkcd fanatics? Well, I guess mafia doesn't involve too much discussion beyond, well, mafia.
23:49:47 <ais523> ehird: the channel appears to have nothing to do with xkcd in particular, apart from the server
23:49:55 <ais523> it's mostly full of nomic players, it seems sometimes
23:50:01 <ais523> well, about the same density as this channel
23:50:01 <ehird> foonetic isn't xkcd's network, btw
23:50:13 <ehird> it's just only popular because of xkc
23:50:29 <ais523> well, I was connecting via irc.xkcd.com
23:50:34 <ais523> but I suppose I could just connect directly
23:50:39 <ehird> It's Ubuntu's IRC network!
23:50:55 <ais523> ehird: is that freenode or not? I failed to determine after trying to tell for a while
23:51:03 <ais523> it seems to be sort-of freenode, but sort-of not
23:51:08 <ehird> ais523: How is it not
23:51:19 <ais523> ehird: e.g. it recognised that the name ais523 was taken, but wouldn't let me identify
23:51:27 <AnMaster> ais523, you could have joined #esoteric to check
23:51:30 <ehird> Maybe it's a different Freenode server.
23:51:31 <ais523> IIRC, this was ages ago
23:51:54 <AnMaster> ais523, or just used host or nslookup
23:52:07 <AnMaster> "irc.ubuntu.com is an alias for chat.freenode.net."
23:52:29 -!- ais523_telnet has joined.
23:52:30 <AnMaster> irc.freenode.net is an alias for chat.freenode.net.
23:52:30 <ehird> Who even uses chat.freenode.net as opposed to irc.?
23:52:50 <ehird> Yes, but directly.
23:52:57 <ehird> [23:52] AnMaster: "irc.ubuntu.com is an alias for chat.freenode.net."
23:53:15 <ais523_telnet> I noticed that, but I was halfway through the test already
23:53:27 <ais523_telnet> and it's rather hard to notice other people's messages over tlenet while you're typing
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23:55:05 <ehird> I wonder if my dream last night was lucid or just fake-lucid (i.e. dreaming I was lucid).
23:55:18 <ehird> I was certainly very apprehensive about jumping out of the window despite a good amount of proof I was dreaming.
23:56:14 <ehird> I suppose that could just be my "don't jump out of windows" instinct, but I'm usually out of that window pretty quickly after becoming lucid. (I always seem to start lucid dreams in my bedroom when it's day.)
23:57:16 <AnMaster> (idea: convince him that he is dreaming to make him jump out his window?)
23:57:38 <ehird> That would require rather drastic changes to the fabric of reality.
23:58:08 <ehird> Also, I never open it, it's always just open when I'm about to jump.
23:58:17 <ehird> Although one time I jumped out of it while it was closed, I think.
23:58:19 <AnMaster> ehird, what about me starting talking about advanced stuff in haskell suddenly?
23:59:16 <AnMaster> ehird, or ais talking like Mike Riley?
23:59:43 <AnMaster> (and not in the context of making some joke)
23:59:48 <ehird> Ooh, I remember one missed opportunity for lucidity from ages ago: I was in the bathroom, just standing around. Suddenly, a translucent, unrealistic ... old army? I don't know, but a stampede, came running through. To avoid them, even though they appeared entirely intangible, I ... went on the wall? Or just stayed to the side. Something, anyway. They passed. I remember thinking about dreams at one point, but obviously that was real. I didn't think it strange