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00:20:32 <Sgeo> How do I stop myself from asking stupid questions?
00:20:55 <ehird> turn on your deduction circuits
00:21:04 <ehird> also turn off any lingering ADHD transistors that may be firing
00:21:37 <oerjan> you don't. you just rise to a higher level where the questions are so clever other people don't realize they are stupid.
00:21:48 <ehird> knowing me I'm going to install this and the game won't be compatibl
00:21:54 <ehird> oh well, I can trivially put XP on instead
00:22:02 <ehird> so most of the work won't have been wasted if that's the cas
00:22:14 <oerjan> the danger here is not to end up in time cube land, it's nearly the same direction
00:22:33 <ehird> (right now i'm running a windows program with wine remastering a windows 7 RC x64 install CD using my already-burned copy that needs a 64-bit EFI, which I don't have)
00:23:20 <oerjan> ehird: there's just got to be a yo dawg in there somewhere
00:23:28 <ehird> more like an oh gawd
00:30:09 <Sgeo> My homework: http://codepad.org/F8rBjCL3
00:31:53 <ehird> in Sgeo's world, we are all intimately interested in the trivial C++ he was told to write
00:32:03 <ehird> (yeah yeah pot kettle :))
00:33:23 <ehird> WARNING: This image contains filenames and/or directory names that are
00:33:24 <ehird> NOT COMPATIBLE with Windows NT 3.51. If compatibility with
00:33:24 <ehird> Windows NT 3.51 is required, use the -nt switch rather than
00:50:16 <HackEgo> * Bruno, Brun, or Braun (died 2 February 880) was the Duke of Saxony from 866 to his death. He was the elder son of Liudolf, progenitor of the ... \ [23]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brun_(Saxony) \ * Bruun is a family name of Nordic origin. The meaning is brown (brun in Danish, Swedish and Norwegian). ...
00:51:02 <ehird> ahahahdahsdskgdk;jlfl;
00:51:17 <oerjan> ok that settles it, you are overly tired
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00:52:49 <ehird> tired, yes, but not overly
00:52:58 <ehird> zzo38: I have no opinion either way
00:53:08 <oerjan> with that joke? don't be ridiculous.
00:53:08 <ehird> just wanted to preempt any questions :P
00:53:41 <oerjan> preempted before prompted
00:53:44 <ehird> oerjan: it is to be noted that most of the time, only my externalities are ever tired; internally I'm still comprehending properly but, you know, my fingers just type "yawnsabutt".
00:53:57 <ehird> with that said, buttman, he has a cape and a butt,.
00:54:50 <oerjan> and while you are dreaming, it's all making sense too
00:55:21 <zzo38> In GameBoy codes, is it a good idea to make the background pattern tile $9C instead of tile $00, that's what I use for the clear-screen subroutine, it uses $9C (can you figure out why without looking at the code?)
00:55:39 <ehird> i have already answered
00:55:50 <zzo38> But I'm not asking you specifically.
00:55:57 <ehird> this amuses me: http://blog.wolfram.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/manipulate2.swf
00:57:23 * ehird installs windows 7 rc... again
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00:57:56 <zzo38> I am writing some GameBoy programs, maybe I can also make a brainfuck interpreter on GameBoy (I could make it compiled into Gameboy codes, make each brainfuck command []+-<>,. compiled into a RST command)
00:58:25 <zzo38> Other esolangs would be a bit harder though, but some of them can probably be done
01:03:12 <zzo38> + can become 34 - can become 35 < can become 2B > can become 23 . can become C7 , can become E7
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01:04:41 * ehird decides that a mediocre victory beats no victory, puts XP cd in
01:05:01 <oerjan> as long as it's not a pyrrhic one
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01:12:11 <zzo38> Why does x86 not have $00 is NOP but GameBoy does?
01:13:42 <oerjan> would you actually _want_ $00 to be NOP? it would mean if you accidentally jumped into zero-initialized memory you would just zip past it, perhaps into some real code...
01:14:09 <oerjan> much better to make it an exception of some kind...
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01:14:58 <oerjan> (not that i know what $00 actually does on x86 or anywhere else)
01:19:41 <oerjan> ^ul (KH)(A)(:*)(:*)::**^^(N!)**S
01:19:41 <fungot> KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!
01:22:52 <Ilari> X86 has 00 00 be one of: ADD [BX+SI],AL (16 bit addressing), or ADD [EAX], AL (32 bit addressing). X64 64-bit mode has it ADD [RAX], AL
01:24:41 <Ilari> What exactly it is is affected by address size but not bitness (since it happens to be byte-sized operation involving memory access).
01:25:14 <Ilari> IIRC, 00 00 00 00 in MIPS is a NOP.
01:31:38 <Ilari> X86 primary NOP is $90, which actually is instruction to swap value of AX/EAX with AX/EAX.
01:34:13 <zzo38> The reason I want $00 to be NOP is having to do with a code I wrote for copying a string to the display, the code is simplified when $00 is NOP
01:34:32 <zzo38> And now, see if you can figure out why I want $9C to be the background. (Think of it)
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02:30:11 <ehird> windows installed, now I just have to driver it up
02:30:15 <ehird> and then install 5 billion updates
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02:53:41 * oerjan suspect the flu is brewing within him
02:53:55 <oerjan> Nice having known you all
02:54:22 <ehird> oerjan: oink oink oink
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02:55:11 <oerjan> no thanks, living this once was more than enough...
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03:51:26 <ehird> it's...surprisingly snappy
03:51:36 <ehird> and the boot camp drivers are really good!
03:52:07 * ehird wonders if virus scanners are even worth bothering with, if you use a decent browser and don't do stupid stuff...
03:52:17 <ehird> of course, that is probably being too optimistic about security flaws in windows
03:52:46 <ehird> but hey, this is actually quite pleasant. chrome is nice
03:53:31 <ehird> actually I swear this is snappier than Safari/OS X, which makes me sad.
03:54:19 * ehird is dangerously close to liking windows here...
03:56:17 <coppro> ehird: it's great so long as you don't try to use it for anything
03:56:20 <coppro> I have a dual-boot myself
03:56:35 <ehird> coppro: true; I know Windows is always snappy to start with
03:56:44 <coppro> the real issue is that Windows bogs down far faster than other OSes
03:56:46 <ehird> but this is the first time it's actually flown
03:59:23 <ehird> Maybe someone should scientifically investigate how windows bogs down and write a daemon that stops whatever it is. :P
03:59:44 <ehird> Anyway, Windows always works the same for games, I find, so that's alright.
04:00:16 <ehird> And I *still* can't figure out how anyone could like the fisher price Luna interface over classic.
04:00:29 <ehird> Also, cleartype is still unreadable and ugly.
04:00:50 <coppro> ehird: mostly it's daemons I think
04:01:09 <coppro> also, "Luna" interface
04:01:21 <ehird> the default blue interface
04:01:34 <ehird> the olive isn't even an interface as opposed to a pukefest
04:01:40 <ehird> the silver is half-passable
04:01:49 <coppro> however, I'm not a big fan of classic
04:01:49 <ehird> but similar enough to classic that you might as well save the system resources
04:02:02 <ehird> if I wanted pretty, I'd reboot into OS X
04:02:15 <ehird> although windows 7 looks alright
04:02:29 <coppro> Oxygen hits a nice balance... functional, but not blocky
04:02:37 <ehird> Oh, and quick launch + the taskbar is still superior to the dock.
04:02:52 <ehird> (Though the Windows 7 somethingdockbarthing is even more superior.)
04:03:35 <ehird> I tried it in a VM (and so lacked a bunch of good features that require a halfway decent GPU) and it was good.
04:03:47 <coppro> it would be nice if the Linux developers could get themselves organized enough for something like the somethingdockbarthing
04:03:52 <ehird> It was better than every other Windows before it, which is a feat.
04:04:01 <ehird> coppro: Misnomer - "the linux developers"
04:04:17 <ehird> If someone builds it for, say, Gnome, then you could propose for Gnome to use it by default.
04:04:27 <coppro> the problem is the application writers
04:04:34 <coppro> it needs application support
04:04:36 <ehird> To be honest I'd use Windows 7 fulltime if I didn't know programming for it would be a bitch
04:04:51 <ehird> coppro: try ubuntu sometime, y'know? Linux doesn't suck any more
04:04:58 <coppro> ehird: that's what I'm doing
04:05:12 <ehird> coppro: There's your problem :P
04:05:24 * ehird ponders whether Windows Live Messenger is hideously bloated enough to explode on his system.
04:05:38 <ehird> But Pidgin is le crappy on Windows, and Miranda IM is fiddly to set up.
04:05:49 <coppro> Chatzilla works pretty well
04:05:57 <ehird> Chatzilla does not talk to MSN, and bitlbee sucks.
04:06:10 <ehird> For IRC I'll probably use mIRC or something.
04:06:19 * coppro shudders at the mention of mIRC
04:06:38 <ehird> Hey, don't knock mIRC. The scripting ... thing is an abomination, but it's a sturdy little... thing.
04:06:39 <coppro> um... what's with your version string?
04:06:51 <ehird> It's freenode's fucked up webchat thing
04:07:00 <ehird> I would use mibbit, but they blocked it because FREENODE IS RUN BY RETARDED MONKIES.
04:07:00 <coppro> CZ has JavaScript; though I've never actually tried to use it
04:07:27 <ehird> ugh, Chrome is unreasonably responsive
04:07:36 <coppro> apparently you are on Mozilla, AppleWebKit, "KHTML, like Gecko", Chrome, and Safari
04:07:37 <ehird> I feel like I've just upgraded my internet connection
04:07:48 <ehird> coppro: uh, that's what User-Agents are like
04:07:55 <ehird> all browsers do that
04:08:05 <coppro> sure, but not all at once
04:08:19 <ehird> IE is also Mozilla "compatible", for instance
04:08:23 <ehird> It's because of version sniffing
04:08:37 <ehird> "Mozilla" is sniffed for "not IE", so it goes in
04:08:43 <ehird> AppleWebKit is, well, WebKit
04:08:56 <ehird> "KHTML, like Gecko" is KHTML and getting Gecko-specific stuff since it'll probably work
04:08:59 <ehird> Chrome is because I'm using chrome
04:09:06 <ehird> and Safari is because Chrome uses WebKit, like Safari
04:09:10 <ehird> and thus the sniffers are satiated
04:09:58 <ehird> incidentally, my disk is F:!
04:10:20 <ehird> because the EFI partition thing is C:, some empty space would be D: but isn't because it's empty,
04:10:30 <ehird> and then there's empty space that would be G:
04:11:01 * coppro is happy with Windows not having access to the ext partition
04:11:11 <ehird> oh, it hasn't mounted OS X
04:11:16 <ehird> it just assigned it a drive letter in the installr
04:11:24 <ehird> assuming it would figure out how to talk to that partition later :-P
04:11:28 <coppro> is there an IFS module for it?
04:11:37 <ehird> I think Boot Camp 3 with Snow Leopard has that or something
04:12:00 <coppro> in any case, it may not be a great idea - Windows can't do Unix permissions and itself pretty insecure
04:12:05 <ehird> mirc looks... worrying bloated
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04:17:52 <ehird> that's a nice linespacing
04:17:55 <ehird> now can I change this font
04:17:57 <ehird> I hate terminal :P
04:18:01 <coppro> I think you're dropping the last character off every sentenc
04:18:20 <oerjan> yeah that is a known proble
04:19:01 <ehird> i checked the logs.
04:19:15 <ehird> hmm this is fixedsys, not terminal
04:19:50 <ehird> ok, a reason to hate windows: no, Arial is not an acceptable font to ship in place of something like Helvetica
04:20:00 <oerjan> we would have got away with it if not for those meddling log
04:21:26 <ehird> size 9 courier new seems acceptable when not antialiased
04:21:42 * ehird downloads windows live messenger against his better judgement
04:22:04 <coppro> ehird: do you really need all that stuff while on Windows?
04:22:13 <Sgeo> I tried it on the insistance of a friend. It didn't work
04:22:14 <coppro> it's not like you are planning extended trips, are you?
04:22:21 <ehird> coppro: considering I'm booted into it, it'd be nice to use it
04:22:26 <ehird> also, I am the epitome of laziness
04:22:48 * coppro is more lazy than ehird!
04:22:49 <ehird> and, well, clicking things on windows goes faster. my lazy organ has a vested interest in keeping me here.
04:22:53 <coppro> speaking of which... shit... homework]
04:23:05 <ehird> Asztal: weeeeeeeeeell?
04:23:11 <Sgeo> ehird, is this all an attempt to get some game working?
04:23:12 <Asztal> ehird: because windows live messenger is evil :(
04:23:23 <ehird> Asztal: the protocol or the client?
04:23:34 <ehird> Sgeo: that is the original intent of this escapade, yes.
04:23:44 <Asztal> the client is what I was referring to
04:24:04 <ehird> why's it evil? i mean it sucks yeah
04:24:13 <Asztal> it's always "install a virus scanner! look at my advertisements! look at msn today! get a webcam!" :(
04:24:20 <ehird> oh the ads right, point taken
04:24:21 <ehird> what do you use instead, anyhoo
04:24:26 <ehird> I'm out of the loop with windows... thingies
04:24:35 <Sgeo> I think I ended up renaming the executable, since its starting up was causing me pain and misery
04:24:37 <Asztal> well, I'm too lazy not to use it :D
04:24:39 <ehird> last I was in this circle miranda IM was the thing, and FUCK is that client a FUCKING BITCH to install
04:24:43 <ehird> well okay not install
04:24:47 <ehird> to get it halfway usable
04:24:52 <Sgeo> I hated Miranda IM
04:24:52 <ehird> requires at least an hour of effort
04:24:59 <ehird> once you had it working, coo, coo, great
04:25:08 <ehird> you just spend 94837593457 hours on an underfeatured client
04:25:11 <Asztal> there is a program called apatch that will remove the advertisements from it, and possibly the virus scanner requirement
04:25:11 <ehird> BET YOU FEEL GOOD ABOUT YOURSELF
04:25:19 <ehird> who remembers msn plus!
04:25:31 <Asztal> if you don't have a virus scanner, you're quite limited in file transfers :/
04:25:32 <Sgeo> I remember using some tool that did stuff with AIM
04:25:35 <ehird> oh, grr, mIRC's inconsistent copying behaviour
04:25:57 <ehird> also: holy crap chrome is fast
04:25:57 <Sgeo> I was testing something that was a bunch of insults based on a s/n
04:26:04 <ehird> it opens up as soon as i leave go of the icon
04:26:07 <Sgeo> Sending it to myself, then my friend's sister IMed me
04:26:11 <ehird> and every page so far has loaded as soon as i release my click
04:26:22 <Sgeo> "2 is the number of times I raped your sister" was sent to her, iirc
04:27:07 <Sgeo> ehird, use Silverex
04:27:24 <ehird> gtk is conspicuously non-native. also xchat kind of sucks.
04:27:37 <ehird> with gtk-wimp it'd be more native i guess
04:27:58 <ehird> I don't really feel like supporting the xchat team's money-grabbing, evil windows binary payment scheme though, by using their product
04:28:12 <Sgeo> ooh, GTK-Wimp looks hot
04:28:41 <ehird> It's what gimp on windows uses and stuff.
04:28:46 <ehird> It looks like, uhh, windows.
04:28:58 <ehird> Asztal: does live messenger uninstall without sacrificing babies?
04:29:08 <ehird> if so my lazy organ is directing me to the install button.
04:29:34 <Sgeo> ehird, deleting msnmsgr.exe or renaming it is enough to prevent the evil from starting up
04:29:49 <ehird> But is it in add/remove?
04:29:50 <Sgeo> But then, that's typically true of viruses too, if you find all the places they're hidden
04:29:55 <Sgeo> ehird, not sure, haven't checked
04:30:02 <ehird> Chrome complaint: checkboxes and the arrows on scrollbars don't show up when using Classic.
04:30:09 <ehird> The former being far more major than the latter.
04:30:45 <Asztal> I wasn't serious with the "dont!" thing really, it's almost usable these days
04:30:54 <ehird> does it use a lot of system resources?
04:30:59 <ehird> i'm cherishing this snappiness
04:31:07 <ehird> as an aside, it sure was nice to have bootcamp install every driver for me
04:31:25 <ehird> i just clicked next and sat there on my ass for five minutes while it reeled off a list of drivers it was installing, then ping!
04:32:06 <ehird> hmm, apparently i'm on service pack 2
04:32:12 <ehird> shouldn't it be trying to upgrade me to 3...
04:32:33 <ehird> oh, it's set to download updates at 3am
04:32:42 * ehird changes that to download em for me and let me choose when to install
04:32:58 <ehird> Asztal: "installing microsoft choice guard"
04:33:11 <ehird> that does not sound like a thing that i want on my disk.
04:33:19 <ehird> no, Microsoft, I do not want to use bing or MSN
04:33:36 <ehird> IT FORCES CLEARTYPE
04:33:54 <ehird> ok so it doesn't look to bad with segoe ui, still.
04:34:07 <ehird> wow, the dancing messenger people icon
04:34:10 <ehird> wasn't that in, like, msn 5
04:34:20 <ehird> i remember using msn 5!
04:34:50 <Asztal> microsoft choice guard sounds about as honest as trusted computing
04:35:04 <ehird> also the window chrome looks like vista
04:35:06 <ehird> just fuck that shit.
04:35:31 <ehird> "OBLITERATE IT ALL! ALL OF IT! ALL!"
04:36:00 <Sgeo> http://blog.marcocantu.com/blog/microsoft_choice_guard.html
04:36:41 <Asztal> Microsoft Real Player?
04:36:44 <ehird> microsoft will truly never get it, will they
04:37:27 <ehird> ok, first order of the day: replace mIRC
04:37:36 <Sgeo> So, apparently, it could end up fighting malware, or end up fighting anti-viruses?
04:38:19 <ehird> does hydrairc suck or not? it looks like it sucks but you can never tell with windows.
04:38:52 <ehird> limechat is available for windows
04:39:20 <ehird> although apparently only in japanese >_<
04:39:46 <ehird> X-Chat 2 no longer uses GTK+ Runtime EnvironmentGTK+ libraries are included in installer. You may use system's GTK+ runtime, thoughdeselect GTK+ durint X-Chat install.
04:39:50 * ehird installs a system-wide gtk
04:39:54 <ehird> because, you know, fuck such things.
04:40:09 <ehird> also god damn, why hasn't anyone told me how amazing chrome is?
04:42:04 <ehird> too lazy to install separate gtk
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04:47:16 <ehird> the MS-Windows theme doesn't actually use native widgets.
04:47:24 <ehird> for instance, menus don't fade in.
04:47:30 <ehird> this is arguably an improvement :P
04:49:24 <Asztal> that must be something I disable :)
04:49:30 <ehird> yeah, I disabled that now :P
04:49:45 <ehird> not menu shadows though.
04:49:49 <ehird> I like menu shadows.
04:51:29 <Asztal> "Slide open combo boxes" is the worst one though.
04:51:35 <ehird> can you disable this thingy
04:51:42 <ehird> where minimising goes to the tray
04:53:20 <ehird> holy crap, the volume buttons work and display a fascicile of the volume control HUD thing on os x :)
04:54:01 <ehird> ok, current task: get myself an IM client
04:55:42 <ehird> i guess pidgin might be acceptable on windows these days...
04:57:08 <ehird> Asztal: is it true that windows really does not have global spellchecking?
04:57:44 <ehird> ok, I'm hating it a bit now
04:57:56 <ehird> anyway i have to quit this because it's using gtk while gtk is installing because of pidgin SHOCK HORROR ->
04:58:02 <ehird> Alt-F doesn't work in xchat
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05:01:07 <ehird> sort of satisfied with this, I guses
05:02:12 <ehird> "Rearrange items on your hard disk to make programs run faster"
05:02:22 <Sgeo> I think I'm going to fix up a website that I strongly disagree with
05:02:23 <ehird> best way to say "Defragment disk" ever, or best way to say "defragment disk" ever?
05:02:30 <Sgeo> They use Java for pretty buttons!
05:02:30 <ehird> Sgeo: define fix up, define this website
05:02:46 <Sgeo> ehird, stop them using Java to display fancy buttons
05:02:48 <Sgeo> http://www.theprophecies.com
05:02:59 <Sgeo> And get rid of that useless page with Next->
05:03:14 <ehird> Sgeo: are you perhaps expecting better of kooks?
05:05:09 <Sgeo> ehird, I'm just so opposed to the horror, I feel compelled to do something
05:05:22 <ehird> Asztal: do you fathom at all why clicking the "updates! installlllll meeeeeeeeeee" icon makes it disappear then bother me soon after with no change?
05:05:22 <Sgeo> It would be easy to fix it up, just a little, and email the pages to the webmaster
05:05:35 <ehird> Sgeo: dude, these people are clinically delusional and insane
05:06:54 <Sgeo> Is this considered attempting to convert me? Because she said she wouldn't
05:06:55 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/private/zkp5rajablwpfxdwm8cqg
05:07:44 <ehird> Sgeo: dude, stop talking to these people
05:08:03 <ehird> it's as pointless as trying to reason with a mental inpatient except they're socially acceptable, thus bolstering their delusions
05:08:12 <Sgeo> I'm not going to try to debate her
05:08:13 <ehird> you may find more productive conversation in avenues such as "a brick wall"
05:08:28 <ehird> Sgeo: there is a fundamental gap in the religious mind between people and the unsaved
05:08:43 <ehird> it is unlikely you will get anywhere without them first converting you unless they think it'll help convert you
05:08:44 <Sgeo> "Is there a reason why you don't believe in God? (I am not going to judge you or try to convert you I am just very interested in people and what they believe and why they believe it. After all everyone has faith in something)"
05:08:52 <ehird> Disclaimer: by religious i mean fanatical here
05:09:15 <ehird> Sgeo: believe that if you want /shrug
05:09:48 * ehird runs windows update as a stopgap
05:11:49 <Sgeo> ehird, you know, I'm the one who started the conversation. I asked her what she does at church
05:12:19 <ehird> just so you know, you're fairly obviously trying to twist what I say in the direction you want it to go
05:13:20 <Sgeo> ..what direction do I want it to go? I'm not [consiously] trying to twist anything, I think
05:14:44 <ehird> 'she won't try and convert you, she'll respect whatever you say' etc
05:14:48 <ehird> ---------------------------
05:14:48 <ehird> Service Pack 3 Setup Error
05:14:48 <ehird> ---------------------------
05:14:48 <ehird> There is not enough disk space on F:\WINDOWS\$NtServicePackUninstall$ to install Service Pack 3. Setup requires a minimum of 4 additional megabytes of free space or if you also want to archive the files for uninstallation, Setup requires 4 additional megabytes of free space. Free additional space on your hard disk and then try again.
05:14:49 <ehird> ---------------------------
05:14:53 <ehird> ---------------------------
05:14:57 <ehird> the partition is 64gig
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05:24:27 * ehird installs other updates first
05:24:38 -!- Asztal has quit (".").
05:25:30 <ehird> "Download size (total): 34.9 MB
05:25:30 <ehird> Estimated time at your connection speed: 1 hour 0 minutes"
05:32:46 <Sgeo> "I think this conversation is starting to take a turn towards conversion talk. If you're ok with that, I'm ok with it. If you're not ok with it, feel free to ignore the rest of this email, and we'll change the subject."
05:32:56 <Sgeo> Is that a good way to begin this email?
05:36:28 <ehird> do you know what you're doing Sgeo?
05:36:30 <ehird> asking stupid questions.
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06:16:32 <ehird> that disk space thing was an efi-relate issue.
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06:57:57 <lament> he left before i could ask him if she's hot
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07:35:15 <ehird> eh, i guess i have to install emacs if i want a decent haskell editor on win32 :)
07:38:21 <ehird> windows, emacs... nazism...
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08:18:46 * Rugxulo is bored waiting for something to compile ...
08:22:48 <Rugxulo> ehird, what esolangs do you prefer anyways?
08:23:28 <ehird> for the traditionals: underload. unlambda. weirder: uhh, every single oklopol language
08:23:35 <ehird> oh, redivider is sorta fun too.
08:23:53 <Rugxulo> what's the deal with Unlambda anyways?
08:24:08 <ehird> oh, paintfuck is fun too
08:24:11 <ehird> Rugxulo: whadyamean
08:25:00 <ehird> also there's nothing I hate more than a hypocrite, and I'm currently running emacs on windows so feel free to stab me.
08:25:39 <ehird> oh, and the windows is relatively old... though that wasn't by choice
08:25:48 <ehird> it's almost enough to make a man believe in synchronicity
08:26:00 <ehird> asshole synchronicity.
08:29:05 <Rugxulo> relatively old? what version?
08:29:21 <Rugxulo> (I mean, XP can be considered relatively old although I find that ludicrous)
08:29:33 <ehird> 2002 is plain old, but it's SP3
08:29:37 <ehird> so it's just relatively old
08:29:41 <Rugxulo> SP3 was just this year or so, right?
08:29:59 <ehird> but Vista was a major reworking and 7 was a further refinement
08:30:04 <Rugxulo> ehird, I still use much much older software
08:30:06 <ehird> i don't think old is solely time-based
08:30:19 <ehird> Rugxulo: well, I installed this to use some old software
08:30:21 <Rugxulo> eh, Vista regressed in a lot of ways
08:30:23 <ehird> although it's a game, so that doesn't count
08:30:30 <ehird> also, yes, but it's still change
08:30:47 <ehird> Rugxulo: not really, because games don't get updates that make them "work better"
08:30:50 <ehird> beyond initial bug fixes
08:30:58 <ehird> there's no "made the plot less obtuse at this point"
08:31:20 <Rugxulo> but I guess for commercial stuff, probably not :->
08:31:56 <ehird> but damn, you windows guys are lucky for having a polished Chrome
08:32:05 <ehird> ridiculously polished
08:32:36 <lament> faster than firefox ON WINDOWS!
08:32:48 <Rugxulo> they've improved it a lot for other OSes lately, though
08:32:51 <ehird> it's like 2-3x faster than safari/osx in realtime, and feels like 5x faster than safari/osx subjectively
08:33:12 <Rugxulo> Safari and Chrome both use Webkit, I think
08:33:33 <ehird> but there's the javascript engine, the drawing code, ...
08:33:38 <Rugxulo> besides, V8 (or whatever) is also a lot faster (x86, ARM) although Safari always bragged about speed
08:33:56 <ehird> i mean, browsers don't just render a page and draw it all in the same way
08:34:03 <Rugxulo> well, to be completely honest, I think they used MSVC, which believe it or not may actually be better than GCC in some optimizations (don't ask me why!!!)
08:34:37 <Rugxulo> I love GCC to death, so it kinda annoys me that MSVC somehow does something better, and I personally refuse to use it (too bloated, annoying, non-compliant, etc.)
08:34:40 <ehird> I doubt it makes a difference at such a high level
08:34:47 <ehird> But gcc is kind of... crap
08:34:56 <ehird> It's free and supports a lot, that's all it has going for it
08:34:56 <Rugxulo> not crap, just weird, hard to maintain, etc.
08:35:10 <ehird> bad code, not very good optimisations, compiler itself is slow, etc.
08:35:13 <Rugxulo> besides, MSVC only targets x86 (and maybe ARM?), so it's probably easier to work on
08:35:25 <Rugxulo> only 4.2.1 and newer are v3
08:35:35 <ehird> apple are moving to llvm/clang totally for future os x
08:35:44 <ehird> most of the bundled apps in snow leopard are compiled with clang, IIRC
08:35:58 <Rugxulo> I knew they employed the Clang dude
08:36:03 <ehird> which is a pretty major leap from "experimental, might work" to "hey! let's compile the apps in our large-market commercial OS with it"
08:36:09 <ehird> Rugxulo: LLVM is pretty much an Apple project
08:36:18 <Rugxulo> well, FreeBSD 8 also imported Clang into their CVS tree
08:36:33 <Rugxulo> it started out separate from them, though, they just pay the guys to keep working on it
08:36:47 <Rugxulo> but yeah, GCC is damn slow, very annoying, but oh well ... what can ya do?
08:37:09 <Rugxulo> OpenWatcom is faster but slightly worse optimizations
08:37:16 <Rugxulo> heck, even "old" GCC 3.4.4 is twice as fast
08:37:53 <Rugxulo> I want to say some of that is all the constant garbage collection, but I think that's less of an issue
08:37:54 <ehird> no, apple software update, I do not want to install itunes or quicktime for windows because they are SHIT on windows
08:38:00 <ehird> I would like that driver update, however
08:38:06 <Rugxulo> 70 MB updates every freakin' time, so annoying ...
08:38:10 <ehird> Please do not tick both of them at once. It's sleazy.
08:38:32 <Rugxulo> oh, didn't Chrome just pioneer some ultra-good update compression diff thingy? (better than bzdiff or whatever)
08:38:43 <ehird> for binaries only, iirc
08:38:45 <ehird> they use it for updates
08:39:06 <Rugxulo> well, as you know, Chrome auto-updates on the fly all the time
08:39:25 <ehird> that's cool. also creepy.
08:39:40 * ehird wonders why he can't seem to put Windows into inverse letterbox mode
08:39:49 <ehird> (4:3 res on 16:10 display; black bars at either side)
08:40:00 <Rugxulo> there's probably a way :-)
08:40:01 <ehird> (I get the equivalent of the (stretched) variant of the resolutions from OS X)
08:40:11 <ehird> Rugxulo: it probably involves downloading some crappy shareware or something
08:40:21 <ehird> prolly easier to buy a 4:3 monitor.
08:43:42 <Rugxulo> BTW, I meant, "Unlambda probably requires somebody who knows what the hell lambda calculus is, eh?"
08:45:12 <ehird> you mean somebody not retarded?
08:45:14 <ehird> oops disregard that
08:46:04 <Rugxulo> you gotta admit it looks tough
08:46:10 <Rugxulo> well, so did Befunge until recently :-)
08:46:34 <Rugxulo> ```sk`````sk (not exactly clear cut, IMHO)
08:47:04 <Rugxulo> heh, one guy wrote an Unlambda interpreter in sed (!)
08:49:22 <ehird> <Windows> I see your drivers are being updated! FOUND NEW HARDWARE. FOUND NEW HARDWARE. FOUND NEW FUCKING HARDWARE, DAMMIT! PAY ATTENTION TO ME!
08:49:34 <ehird> Thank god I have the sound muted, at least.
08:51:00 <Rugxulo> have you used Vista before?
08:51:15 <ehird> Rugxulo: not that i know of, but I'm fairly familiar with it despite that.
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08:52:31 <Rugxulo> well, I suspect you will hate it
08:52:47 <Rugxulo> (although you could technically turn off UAC)
08:53:13 <ehird> eh, I toyed around with Windows 7 RC for a bit (I was going to try Windows 7 RC x64 first, but had issues with the 64-bit part; so I fell back to XP)
08:53:18 <ehird> the UAC is fine, really
08:53:22 <ehird> unless it was significantly worse in vista
08:53:41 <ehird> it's basically the same as e.g. ubuntu's administrative privileges dialog, from what I can tell
08:53:51 <ehird> anyway, restart time!
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08:55:46 <ehird> dear bluetooth thingy
08:55:51 <ehird> remove bluetooth icon means do that
08:55:54 <ehird> don't sit around there.
08:57:43 <Rugxulo> actually, I guess it's (semi-)moot how well / badly Vista behaves now that Win7 is out ... but then again, there are a lot of pre-existing copies, and not everyone will upgrade (e.g. me)
08:58:05 <Rugxulo> but you can't upgrade from XP anyways, gotta clean install
08:58:30 <ehird> yay it disappeared
08:58:37 <Rugxulo> and they nickel-and-dime us to death again with various restrictions depending on version purchased (e.g. no XP mode for home users)
08:59:08 <Rugxulo> I hear that 64-bit Windows works fine assuming you have suitable drivers
09:00:31 <Rugxulo> Vista has a different driver model, and some computers don't have XP drivers (I think)
09:00:52 <ehird> xp mode is kind of useless though
09:00:56 <ehird> since... everything works with vista
09:01:09 <Rugxulo> a lot of stuff still doesn't work with Vista
09:01:18 * Rugxulo isn't as big a fan of Windows as you think
09:01:29 <ehird> well yes, the circa 1990 windows-shipped utilities you use every day to calculate 2+2 probably don't.
09:01:32 <Rugxulo> even a lot of MS software initially didn't work on Vista !!
09:01:59 <Rugxulo> MS finally rewrote Calc for Win7 (it'd been more-or-less unmodified for a billion years)
09:02:33 <Rugxulo> same as for Freecell in Vista, finally got overhauled (apparently the same as the Win32s version from before 1995 or so)
09:03:08 <Rugxulo> 1990 probably had a lot of good software although 386s and 486s were the best out at the time
09:03:20 <Rugxulo> Win 3.0 came out in 1990 (heh)
09:03:21 <ehird> i'm using windows, w-w-w-w-indows 386
09:03:27 <ehird> so all my applications are running at once
09:04:05 <Rugxulo> Win NT 3.1 was from 1993 or so (I think)
09:04:11 <ehird> (you have seen that video right?)
09:04:26 <ehird> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4915875929930836239
09:04:33 <ehird> yes, it is an official microsoft promotional video
09:05:07 <Rugxulo> have you seen the MS-DOS 5 video? :-)
09:05:29 <ehird> i think so. also ballmer yelling to advertise windows
09:05:32 <ehird> but seriously, this takes the cake
09:06:02 <Rugxulo> no way, MS-DOS 5 was extremely cheesy
09:06:14 <ehird> Rugxulo: this isn't just _cheesy_, no no
09:06:15 <Rugxulo> it was a freakin' (white) rap video 8)
09:06:22 <ehird> this *warps reality*
09:06:49 <Rugxulo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfpYrem94q0
09:07:22 <ehird> there's a clipped version of the last, crack-headed 7 minutes, but that doesn't let you lure you in with some semblance of sanity
09:10:31 <Rugxulo> Windows/386 must be 2.1/386 (I guess??)
09:10:50 <ehird> i don't know if it overlaps windows
09:11:23 <Rugxulo> Win 3.0 (1990) could still run on an 8088 / CGA
09:11:32 <Rugxulo> 3.1 required a 286, and 3.11 (WfW) required a 386
09:12:01 <ehird> I used 3.11, but it wasn't for Workgroups.
09:13:34 <Rugxulo> this was obviously before MS stopped working on OS/2
09:13:50 <Rugxulo> yeah, I'm guessing this is Win2.1
09:14:01 <Rugxulo> (blind guess, never used that version)
09:15:05 <Rugxulo> okay, I guess this is the lame part (she's singing)
09:15:18 <Rugxulo> no, I think the MS-DOS 5 one is much lamer
09:15:40 <Rugxulo> why the hell did it zoom to her face???
09:15:50 * Rugxulo feels like he's watching a bad porno)
09:17:40 <Rugxulo> why are they dressed like barber shop quartets??
09:19:23 <Rugxulo> no, sorry, the MS-DOS 5 one is much lamer/funnier
09:21:25 <Rugxulo> what, you've seen it AND disagree?
09:21:33 <Rugxulo> 'cause if you haven't seen it ...
09:21:39 <ehird> i think i've seen it
09:22:09 <Rugxulo> him rapping with the backup singers
09:23:43 <Rugxulo> heh, you don't have to watch it again just on my account, but it was definitely funny
09:25:13 <ehird> it's ridiculous how choppy windows get if you move them
09:25:23 <ehird> c'mon, microsoft, it's like 2001 when you did this shit
09:25:31 <ehird> we have buffering!
09:28:26 * ehird sees a lot about using putty as a cygwin shell, but not as a gnuwin32/whatever shell...
09:29:05 <Rugxulo> I dunno, I've only ever used PuTTy for telnet (Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup)
09:29:28 <Rugxulo> and like I said, WinNT is much older than 2001, so lots of it are left over from before, so it's not always so hugely modern
09:29:33 <ehird> it's just i anticipate myself itchin' for some command line action, and cmd.exe, well, sucks.
09:29:49 <Rugxulo> use the lite/free version of 4NT (I forget its name)
09:30:05 <Rugxulo> or obviously install Cygwin (Bash)
09:30:18 <Rugxulo> Cygwin supports other shells too
09:30:19 <ehird> but I'm a unix kind of guy!
09:30:24 <ehird> cygwin's ports are non-native
09:30:29 <ehird> but really, it isn't so much the shell
09:30:33 <Rugxulo> they're native, just slow due to API emulation
09:30:40 <ehird> ...i.e., not native
09:30:52 <ehird> there is a definite disrepancy between cygwin world and windows worl
09:30:58 <ehird> cygwin has X11-based terminals, anyway, but eh
09:31:13 <ehird> msys's terminal is just cmd.exe, iirc
09:31:28 <Rugxulo> I dunno, never tried it, but they claim it can run "configure", which is no small feat
09:31:41 <ehird> Rugxulo: you fail to differentiate "terminal" and "shell"
09:31:50 <ehird> also, no it's not; configure has 50000000 lines of crap to deal with rubbish shells
09:33:06 <Rugxulo> not really, they avoid a lot of specific stuff if they can
09:33:52 <Rugxulo> for instance, it could be a lot more DOS friendly, and I'm not even sure it would work as is (well, it definitely won't, but that's due to a pressing bug, there are probably loads of other issues too for "pure" DOS)
09:34:12 * ehird installs mingw/msys as a first stage
09:34:27 <Rugxulo> I still say Cygwin would be good enough for your needs, esp. if you're such a *nix nerd
09:34:31 <Rugxulo> it's not that slow, believe me
09:34:34 <ehird> I have used cygwin before
09:34:41 <ehird> I'm not dismissing it based on anecdote
09:34:50 <Rugxulo> and just to tie in with the configure subject, they claim Autoconf 2.64 is 30% faster on Cygwin now
09:34:56 <ehird> what is the problem with unxutils?
09:34:58 <Rugxulo> I know, you're smart, I see that :-)
09:35:04 <ehird> it's gnu utils, running natively on windows, compiled with mingw
09:35:13 <ehird> i don't see why i'd choose cygwin over that
09:35:21 <ehird> apart from the larger selection of packages, which doesn't matter when I just want a shell and some tools
09:35:31 <Rugxulo> 'cause Cygwin probably runs better, more fully-featured
09:35:40 <ehird> the unxutils are the full things
09:35:47 <ehird> exactly the same gnu tools
09:35:55 <Rugxulo> trust me, a Cygwin compile of Bash is probably loads less buggy than a MinGW one
09:36:13 <Rugxulo> GNU is very POSIX-oriented, and Cygwin is POSIX while MinGW isn't at all
09:36:19 <ehird> http://unxutils.sourceforge.net/
09:36:22 <Rugxulo> DJGPP is more POSIX than MinGW
09:36:24 <ehird> i'm not talking about some random no-name project
09:36:25 <Rugxulo> I know, I've seen it before
09:36:27 <ehird> this thing is well known
09:36:34 <Rugxulo> you still need lots of hacks without POSIX
09:36:51 <ehird> ok, let's put it this way: if i ever need to type /cygdrive, it's disqualified :P
09:37:13 <Rugxulo> I think 'cygpath' is the way around that
09:37:38 <ehird> ok, here's a good reason against unxutils:
09:37:40 <ehird> "Last change on 30-04-04 by Karl M. Syring (bug reports are welcome)"
09:37:53 <ehird> although I'm sure it's not that old
09:38:02 <Rugxulo> you never know, it might be
09:38:04 <ehird> last updated march 2007
09:38:10 <ehird> which isn't too bad
09:38:17 <Rugxulo> Bash 3.0 was from 2004, but 3.2.48 (or whatever) was this year (before 4.0, of course)
09:38:48 <Rugxulo> March 2007 could mean anything, probably a lot still going on behind the scenes
09:38:54 <Rugxulo> just no "official" release
09:39:00 <ehird> http://gnuwin32.sourceforge.net/packages.html ;; gee, a separate project with the same name
09:39:03 <ehird> that's not confusing at all
09:39:03 <Rugxulo> (I know of several projects older than that, heh, but still updated)
09:39:09 <ehird> Rugxulo: I didn't mean it like that
09:39:14 <ehird> I meant, it's not that old [the latest update]
09:39:21 <Rugxulo> it's old enough to worry, though
09:39:33 <Rugxulo> but unless you encounter a bug or lack of feature, it's not an issue
09:39:53 <ehird> first things first, mingw
09:39:57 <ehird> I can depend on mingw :P
09:40:09 <ehird> now do I want to install mingw and whatever it is in the same tree or not...
09:40:50 <Rugxulo> so you want a shell, eh? could probably just use Eshell in Emacs
09:41:49 <ehird> terminal = graphical program that executes a shell and lets you type into it, scrollback, etc
09:42:00 <ehird> shell = program that parses commands and executes them
09:42:09 <ehird> terminal example: cmd.exe the graphical app, bash, zsh
09:42:21 <ehird> terminal example: cmd.exe the graphical app, xterm, rxvt
09:42:31 <ehird> shell example: cmd.exe the thing that the graphical app runs, bash, zsh
09:43:08 <Rugxulo> but you said you were running Emacs on Windows
09:43:22 <Rugxulo> try "M-x eshell" before you say it's not a shell / terminal :-)
09:43:58 <ehird> but ehh, M-x term is as far as I'll go
09:44:17 <Rugxulo> "M-x ansi-term" also exists
09:44:22 <ehird> yeah, but it isn't very emacsy
09:46:57 <ehird> "Spawning child process: invalid argument"; no emacs term for me
09:47:36 <Rugxulo> sounds like a Lisp bug (which should be reported so it can be fixed)
09:48:02 <Rugxulo> what version? (hopefully 23.1)
09:51:22 <ehird> emacsw32, the emacs patched from like june or something
09:52:07 <fizzie> The PuTTY terminal emulation is not too shabby; if you want something seriously non-mainstream, I would assume installing some suitable SSH server and using "ssh localhost" with PuTTY would be that.
09:52:26 <Rugxulo> okay, I've (barely) heard of Lennard's "EmacsW32"
09:52:31 <Rugxulo> but June means it's probably 22.3
09:52:48 <Rugxulo> 23.1 came out on July 29, I think
09:53:06 <Rugxulo> I'm using the official Win32 compile from GNU's FTP
09:53:30 <ehird> i think we have to fight to the death now.
09:54:31 <ehird> fizzie: http://code.google.com/p/puttycyg/
09:54:45 <ehird> (note: project not dead; stable version just old)
09:54:50 <ehird> maybe if I point it at mingw it'll work.
09:55:26 <Rugxulo> last updated Aug. 10, so that's good to know
09:55:50 <fizzie> At least win2k had a built-in telnet server for running the cmd.exe over telnet. I don't think it worked very well (if at all) if you happened to have a console application that actually did something more cursor-control-oriented.
09:55:53 <Rugxulo> http://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/emacs/windows/
09:56:46 <Rugxulo> 40 MB download (if you want to "upgrade" to 23.1 final)
09:57:45 <ehird> meh, ti wants cygwin dll
09:59:14 <Rugxulo> you can download it separately, lemme find the link ...
09:59:45 <ehird> it implise that puttycyg uses cygwni spawning functions to worka
09:59:50 <ehird> and thus would fail
10:00:00 <Rugxulo> http://cygwin.com/snapshots/
10:00:23 <Rugxulo> I'm telling you, GNU projects are *heavily* POSIX-oriented
10:00:32 <Rugxulo> and Windows does not have decent POSIX support
10:03:45 <fizzie> There was that whole "Windows Services for Unix" thing, I wonder if it's still alive for modern windowseses.
10:03:58 <ehird> It sucks, I gather.
10:04:10 <Rugxulo> and the POSIX subsystem is long gone too
10:04:13 <ehird> Rugxulo: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=896c9688-601b-44f1-81a4-02878ff11778
10:04:20 <ehird> ORLY BITCHNIZZLE???11212
10:04:37 <ehird> I wonder why j wants to install into my home directory.
10:04:41 <ehird> That does not seem like sane thinking.
10:05:15 * ehird installs it in system, since he is an admin and as such is invincible.
10:05:39 <Rugxulo> (that is, not there either)
10:05:43 <fizzie> The internets say most of it is included in Vista Enterprise/Ultimate, though.
10:06:06 <ehird> Wtf my keyboard layout turned british again. rage.
10:06:26 <Rugxulo> you must've hit some specific key combo
10:06:34 <ehird> I\ve removed all other options
10:07:19 <ehird> (+/%#)1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
10:07:23 <ehird> All in functioning order.
10:09:46 <ehird> (/ is used for folding)
10:10:26 <ehird> Deewiant: Do you know what happened before they became ASCII-limited fools?
10:15:12 * ehird notes his quicklaunch bar is succumbing to featuritis
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10:15:56 <Deewiant> Incidentally, your "Fisherman's Fiend" idea somehow stuck with me enough to make me buy two packets of Fisherman's Friends. I don't and never did intend to make a Fiend, though.
10:16:37 <Deewiant> One of them is of the ammonium chloride variety, which I guess is fairly nonstandard
10:17:01 <ehird> You need the melted metal + acid version.
10:17:13 <ehird> Restarting irc client so that my keyboard layout is right.
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10:20:47 <Deewiant> Enable the language bar, if such a thing exists, and make sure it's on the right setting when you start your program
10:20:57 <ehird> There is only one setting
10:21:00 <ehird> It's nothing to do with that
10:21:03 <ehird> another problem now :P
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10:29:14 <ehird> "Full installation MMX for DirectX 6.1"
10:29:23 <ehird> Rockin' the high-end configuration here
10:30:03 <ehird> There's also 3Dfx Voodoo Glide options :P
10:30:23 <ehird> Apparently I have a Pentium III, and "4G colors".
10:35:45 <ehird> I like how the shortcut is "To Play Rayman 2".
10:35:51 <ehird> Instead of, you know, just "Rayman 2".
10:40:20 <ehird> Deewiant: Whaddya mean?
10:40:24 <ehird> It's what I installed Windows for.
10:40:40 <Deewiant> I mean why that game in particular
10:40:52 <ehird> /shrug. I remembered it.
10:42:55 <ehird> Well, it crashes on changing resoluton just as it always has.
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17:07:52 <fizzie> Hrm. The iBook (G4) HD has decided to go and break. I wonder if it's just the standard 2.5" IDE thing, and not some sort of Appleism. (I've only stuck more memory in this thing, and that at least was very normal stuff.)
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17:30:46 <AnMaster> ehird, btw didn't you say no one uses python 3?
17:31:06 <ehird> Brace yourselves! AnMaster is about to take things absolutely literally.
17:31:40 <AnMaster> I agree mostly with that... But I found one exception.... this "introduction to computer science" course uses python 3.1 ...
17:35:12 <ehird> tell them they're stupid :P
17:36:04 * AnMaster wonders what to do with the "--with-fpectl" configure flag for python
17:36:18 <AnMaster> since ubuntu doesn't have 3.1 packaged, only 3.0
17:38:24 <ehird> AnMaster: you know, 3.1 is just 3.0
17:38:36 <ehird> probably not worth the bother installing 3.1
17:38:43 <ehird> unless this introduction course is made by a fan of edgecases
17:38:51 <ehird> (i forbid you from teaching ever)
17:38:57 <AnMaster> ehird, and some new modules iirc
17:39:16 <AnMaster> and rewritten IO code in C (to make it fast)
17:39:24 <AnMaster> computed goto also is supposed to make it faster
17:39:35 <ehird> Yes, that hello world will be 10x faster and the new brokencsvmicrosoftwordmbox module will be vital in that course. :P
17:39:40 <ehird> I wonder if MinGW comes with a fork().
17:39:43 <ehird> Only one way to find out!*
17:39:55 <Deewiant> Can I tell X to turn caps lock on/off without pressing the caps lock key, somehow?
17:39:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I think we got past that already. We got to loops and functions already :P
17:40:02 <ehird> Deewiant: telepathy
17:40:13 <Deewiant> No, I don't think X has a telepathy API
17:40:14 <ehird> AnMaster: Next step, bleeding-edge modules
17:40:37 <ehird> F:\Documents and Settings\Elliott Hird\My Documents\Code ;; windows paths are uncomfortably long
17:41:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you mean like with using xset led or so?
17:41:26 <AnMaster> not sure if that actually toggles caps lock or just the led
17:41:37 <ehird> Deewiant: that isn't the real name.
17:41:40 <Deewiant> Actually thanks for reminding me about that, that should be sufficient
17:42:38 <AnMaster> what are you trying to do btw?
17:42:43 <Deewiant> Except that xset -led $i for all $i in 1..32 only toggles scroll lock :-P
17:43:08 <ehird> Darn, MinGW *doesn't* come with a fork() :-)
17:43:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I only ever used xset led off
17:43:24 <Deewiant> Doesn't work either; only scroll lock
17:43:38 <AnMaster> for some reason that turns off accessibility thingies if they get enabled by mistake
17:43:56 <Deewiant> Anyway, what I did was I applied a vacuum cleaner to my keyboard and now the caps lock LED is inverted respective to the caps lock state
17:44:03 <AnMaster> (yes that's weird, I would like to completely disable whatever the hotkey is for stuff like slow keys and such)
17:44:10 <Deewiant> And restarting X is a solution
17:44:13 <AnMaster> (haven't found the relevant option yet)
17:44:16 <Deewiant> But I'm wondering if there's an easier way
17:44:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, fix: avoid using vacuum cleaner while computer is on
17:44:43 <Deewiant> That's an even worse solution than restarting X
17:44:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also that thing indicates that caps lock is somehow tracked in hardware
17:44:46 <ehird> Deewiant: Just vaccum it again
17:45:00 <Deewiant> I somehow always manage to make it work like this
17:45:13 <ehird> Vaccum a CRT. It won't help, but it'll look cool.
17:45:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I think this means the led is not software controlled at all
17:45:20 <Deewiant> Granted, there's been a difference in that the first time around I try to clean the keyboard
17:45:27 <Deewiant> Whereas the second time around I try to fix caps lock
17:45:32 <AnMaster> ehird, oh? I never tried, what happens?
17:45:48 <ehird> AnMaster: No idea, but it's probably quantum.
17:45:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, unplug the keyboard and replug it?
17:46:09 <AnMaster> since PS/2 isn't hot-pluggable
17:46:22 <Deewiant> PS/2 seems to be hot-pluggable
17:46:25 <AnMaster> but I would assume I'm the only one still using a PS/2 keyboard
17:46:35 <Deewiant> At least, I recall unplugging this keyboard several times
17:46:36 <ehird> Surely Windows must have something that can implement fork() in its annals these days.
17:46:42 <Deewiant> And it still working without a reboot after replugging
17:46:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it isn't. IIRC ais said that it could potentially fry your keyboard
17:46:59 <ehird> PS/2 is de facto hot-pluggable, de jure not.
17:47:05 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I always use PS/2. I use USB-to-PS/2 adapters for USB keyboards.
17:47:31 <AnMaster> ehird, well maybe my system is DS9K then. Because my system promptly rebooted when I tried it a year ago or so
17:48:04 <AnMaster> <ehird> Surely Windows must have something that can implement fork() in its annals these days. <-- what about the thing cygwin does?
17:48:15 <ehird> AnMaster: You mean basically being a kernel in userspace?
17:48:23 <ehird> I'm sort of looking for something along the lines of not that.
17:48:31 <Deewiant> ehird: Default USB keyboard protocol implementation allows only 6 simultaneously pressed keys (+ 2 or 3 modifiers, I forget)
17:48:44 <ehird> Deewiant: Learn to type properly and chop off those extra fingers.
17:48:46 <AnMaster> ehird, well iirc cygwin does it like: run new process but make it wait at a mutex, copy stuff over to new process, resume the new process
17:48:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Which is evil
17:48:58 <AnMaster> both processes are suspended while this is happening iirc
17:49:08 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. But it counts as implementing fork() ;P
17:49:12 <Asztal> http://www.eggheadcafe.com/conversation.aspx?messageid=32086952&threadid=32040421 <- what about that?
17:49:17 <ehird> So does return EDS9K
17:49:36 <ehird> Asztal: still looks like the same thing
17:49:41 <ehird> also, that's f rom the cygwin time.
17:49:47 <ehird> so of course it is the same thing.
17:49:49 <Deewiant> Yay, I figured out a better solution
17:49:50 <Asztal> ZwCreateProcess would be a way to do it, as that mentions
17:50:00 <ehird> oh gawd, now I have to look at msdn
17:50:02 <Asztal> but ZwCreateProcess is part of the undocumented NT API
17:50:03 <Deewiant> Go to VT1 -> turn caps lock off -> go back to VT7 (X)
17:50:20 <ehird> Undocumented sonuds fun.
17:51:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, xset led works for me btw
17:51:08 <ehird> Wonder if I need the -Ex variant :-)
17:51:12 <AnMaster> though I don't even have a caps lock key :P
17:52:05 <Deewiant> Hmm, xset led is actually pretty weird
17:52:14 <Deewiant> xset led off -> scroll lock off, others remain on
17:52:49 <ehird> AnMaster: As much as I loathe to give any credo to Xah Lee, see http://xahlee.org/emacs/swap_CapsLock_Ctrl.html
17:53:06 <ehird> *a word that isn't creedo
17:53:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, xset led on here only turns on scroll lock. It used to turn on caps lock, but that doesn't seem to happen any more
17:53:30 <AnMaster> as for numlock, it used to affect that too
17:53:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, numlock not affected by off either
17:54:35 <AnMaster> ehird, I assume he have small hands
17:54:52 <ehird> Please stop making that stupid grammatical error; you should know by now...
17:55:04 <AnMaster> ehird, because if I use my palm like he describes, I can't reach z or x with my fingers...
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17:55:27 <ehird> you classify everyone who doesn't have huge hands as small handed
17:55:32 <ehird> this is... false, to say the least
17:55:36 <ehird> and an obvious bias
17:55:46 <AnMaster> ehird, you do exactly the opposite
17:56:23 <AnMaster> ehird, also I didn't swap. I use it in addition
17:56:29 <AnMaster> I have no caps lock key feature
17:56:44 <Deewiant> I can press ctrl with my palm and use my index finger to reach every letter up to the YHN column except Q and A
17:56:45 <ehird> I do not do exactly the opposite, that is an unfounded assertion.
17:57:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also reaching *up* wasn't the issue
17:57:37 <AnMaster> because I would have to curl my finger a lot
17:57:40 <Deewiant> Like I said, I can reach all except Q and A
17:57:50 <Deewiant> And yes, that includes Z and X
17:57:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well Q and A are at the top row?
17:58:08 <Deewiant> The problem with Q and A is they're too far to the left
17:58:16 <Deewiant> My palm slides off ctrl if I press those with my index finger
17:58:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can you reach altgr and 2 with the same hand?
17:58:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, full sized keyboard?
17:58:40 <Deewiant> Using thumb + pinkie I can reach right windows and esc
17:58:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, sounds pretty normal sized then
17:59:01 <Deewiant> Although that's stretching it a bit; I might press altgr at the same time as right windows
17:59:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, right windows and esc is a bit stretching... but then this keyboard has a larger than usual altgr key for some unknown reason
18:00:16 <AnMaster> and esc and the f keys are a bit further away than usual too
18:00:24 <Deewiant> Well I don't know what's "usual" anyway, this is an early-90s HP keyboard
18:00:25 <AnMaster> from the "main" section I mean
18:00:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, this is a ~2001 Fujitsu Siemens keyboard
18:01:38 <Deewiant> If this didn't have Windows buttons I'd guess it was 80s :-P
18:01:39 <ehird> I should use an Apple Extended Keyboard II
18:01:44 <ehird> Then I can be inexplicable even to the Model M users
18:02:01 <AnMaster> ehird, symbolics one would beat even that
18:02:14 <ehird> Symbolics keyboards do not have high-quality keyswitches.
18:02:16 <Deewiant> It has original Alps, doesn't it; that makes it somewhat cool
18:02:18 <ehird> (as far as I know)
18:02:35 <ehird> The Apple Extended's are at least equal to and perhaps better than the Model M's, depending on your tatse.
18:02:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, alps? Wow those keys must have been quite tall
18:02:56 <ehird> Also, it's more obscure and the keycaps are made for one OS.
18:03:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so what alps in this context
18:03:04 <ehird> But hey, John Gruber uses one.
18:03:11 <Deewiant> And "at least equal to" is incorrect
18:03:19 <Deewiant> You can like buckling-spring more than the alps just fine
18:03:27 <ehird> But I mean objectively.
18:03:32 <AnMaster> ehird, err I remember an apple keyboard without the f-keys at all
18:03:36 <ehird> They're undeniably high-quality, and you might subjectively like them more.
18:03:37 <AnMaster> I think it was for apple classic
18:03:37 <Deewiant> There is no objectivity about it :-P
18:03:47 <Deewiant> Well, what do you mean by "high-quality"
18:03:59 <ehird> AnMaster: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Apple_Extended_Keyboard.jpg
18:04:07 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Alps are a brand of key switches
18:04:21 <ehird> Deewiant: What do you mean by "is"
18:04:35 <ehird> By high-quality I mean they're high-quality in construction and engineering
18:04:53 <ehird> I acknowledge that the Model M's keyswitches are high-quality, and yet I do not really appreciate the feel of typing on it, preferring softer keyboards.
18:05:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, um... is this like ALPS touchpad? as in same ALPS?
18:05:15 <Deewiant> I don't know enough details to compare the quality of the Model M's switches and Alps
18:05:21 <Deewiant> Or any other switches, for that matter
18:05:43 <Deewiant> But yes, they're both higher-quality than most stuff on the market, fine.
18:05:55 <ehird> I'm afraid at what I'm becoming
18:06:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Possibly, I don't know.
18:06:08 <ehird> I'm enjoying using Windows XP with the classic theme and no font antialiasing!
18:06:13 <ehird> Surely sweet death must come soon...
18:06:22 <AnMaster> ehird, on a mac screen or on a 96 DPI one?
18:06:24 <ehird> Anything to relieve me from this internal termoil.
18:06:34 <ehird> AnMaster: Mac. 100dpi isn't really different from 96dpi anyway.
18:07:02 <ehird> Yes, that's what they all are, roughly.
18:07:12 <AnMaster> ehird, oh btw I saw gimp under mac os x think the ~114 DPI screen was actually 72 DPI
18:07:12 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Googling a bit suggests that yes, they're both by Alps Electric Co., Ltd.
18:07:12 <ehird> The 24" Apple Cinema Display @ 1920x1200 is 94dpi, even.
18:07:27 <ehird> The notebooks are more like 120dpi.
18:07:45 <AnMaster> ehird, well this one was 114 DPI, a few years old (still intel one though)
18:08:03 <ehird> The most pixel-packing display on an Apple computer is the 17" MacBook Pro, which is full 1920x1200 (!); that's 133dpi.
18:09:14 <AnMaster> ehird, still I want a 30" at > 400 dpi
18:09:20 <ehird> And I want a pony.
18:10:00 <ehird> I'd start breaking the piggy bank around 600dpi; with a good backlight you'd be very close to obsoleting print as a superior medium.
18:10:03 -!- AnMaster has set topic: PONY FLU http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:10:04 <ehird> (for reproduction)
18:10:26 <ehird> from the evil plant forest
18:10:53 <AnMaster> ehird, that probably exists too. *shrug*
18:11:56 <AnMaster> ehird, wake me up at 1200 dpi screens that won't need backlight
18:12:02 <AnMaster> like you don't use backlight for a book
18:12:34 <AnMaster> not sure how good colours it has yet
18:12:54 <AnMaster> but hopefully at some point it will be good enough
18:13:10 <AnMaster> of course, backlight as an option would be nice
18:14:02 <AnMaster> would be nicer than having to use a torch
18:14:07 <ehird> How come cmd.exe only lets you choose between Lucida and the default thingy :\
18:14:20 <AnMaster> ehird, what fonts are installed?
18:14:34 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe those are the only fixed ones
18:14:36 <ehird> Although admittedly the default terminal font is very crisp.
18:14:39 <ehird> It's just... very bold, too.
18:15:03 <ehird> The 6x8 version is yummy like 9pt Monaco.
18:15:05 <Asztal> Registry hacks can let you use Consolas etc. in the console
18:15:15 <Asztal> (though Consolas will look like vomit without Cleartype)
18:15:26 <ehird> Asztal: I have a policy not to antialias stuff in here for no adequately explained reason
18:16:33 -!- ehird has set topic: PONY F.
18:16:41 <ehird> also, heehehehhe Small Fonts is cute.
18:17:25 <ehird> Asztal: Bold Segoe UI actually looks acceptable pixelated
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18:19:04 <Asztal> I just turned off font smoothing and it's still being used in places
18:19:08 -!- AnMaster has set topic: PONY F http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:19:19 <ehird> Asztal: yah, some shitty things force htat
18:19:21 <AnMaster> ehird, and didn't try to fix it?
18:19:29 <ehird> AnMaster: i am a lazy man.
18:19:35 -!- AnMaster has set topic: PONY FLU http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:19:51 <Asztal> like notepad's main menu, and window titles (it's aero glass)
18:20:10 <AnMaster> <Asztal> I just turned off font smoothing and it's still being used in places <-- iirc it only takes effect for apps started after the setting was changed
18:20:23 <AnMaster> it certainly is like that under X
18:20:49 <ehird> It is being forced for the C* font family by Microsoft programs.
18:21:00 <ehird> Because they mostly look like excrement without ClearType.
18:21:19 <ehird> Asztal: what's that registry hack you were speaking of?
18:21:21 <AnMaster> ehird, cleartype *looks* like excrement. More so on lower resolutuon monitors
18:21:34 <ehird> ClearType is a very bad implementation of subpixel smoothing.
18:21:40 <ehird> Really, all are unbearable apart from OS X's, which looks nice.
18:21:46 <ehird> But only in the context of OS X's UI.
18:21:55 <Asztal> ehird: http://blog.wolffmyren.com/2008/09/15/consolas-as-cmdexe-windows-console-font/
18:21:57 <ehird> (This explains how Safari on Windows can look like such dung.)
18:22:07 <AnMaster> ehird, you think the linux subpixel stuff sucks too?
18:22:37 <AnMaster> ehird, right. so why was you so surprised when I didn't like it on my laptop then?
18:22:53 <ehird> Because at that high DPI, I really didn't think it would matter
18:23:18 <ehird> OS X rendering strongly resembles print; a lot of people dislike it for that reason when viewing it in their OS of choice but I've never heard of anyone walking up to a Mac and going "Eww, the fonts are all *smudgy!*".
18:23:59 <ehird> I wonder if powershell is any good
18:24:02 <ehird> Is powershell any good, Windows users?
18:24:32 <AnMaster> ehird, a vector display. Wouldn't need anti-alias at all
18:24:43 <Asztal> it's a bit enterprisey, and slow to start up, but it's better than cmd
18:25:46 <ehird> how's it enterprisey?
18:27:30 <ehird> Hey, I could just install the Lisp Machine monospaced font. :-)
18:27:44 <Asztal> ehird: ls, for example, returns a list of objects, not text, and you manipulate it by inspecting the properties of the objects. It's nice in some ways, but it can get clunky too.
18:27:58 <ehird> http://www.eurogaran.com/downloads/lispmfont/screenshot.jpg
18:28:09 <ehird> Is it just me, or is this the nicest bitmap monospace font ever?
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18:28:20 <AnMaster> ehird, looks nice, but what is up with the 7?
18:28:32 <ehird> It's a european 7.
18:28:36 <ehird> Rendered quite uglily.
18:28:43 <ehird> AnMaster: Dash through the middle.
18:28:53 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, I always write my 7-s like that
18:29:08 <ehird> Only so many pixels to go around. Anyway, how many 7s do you have in your code?
18:29:35 <AnMaster> ehird, I do math homework in emacs? ;P
18:29:55 <AnMaster> because I'm too lazy to use a pen. A lot more effort
18:30:02 <ehird> Lucida Typewriter looks nice
18:30:22 <AnMaster> ehird, where can one get that lispmfont in a format that a modern system knows
18:30:32 <ehird> .fon is not unmodern.
18:31:42 <ehird> In fact I just installed it by dragging-and-dropping the .fon to my Fonts folder.
18:33:06 <ehird> Okay, found a flaw: the . is not monospaced and is unusally small.
18:35:02 <ehird> If only I had the money for http://www.fsd.it/fonts/pragma.htm
18:35:15 <ehird> The 12pt Mac aliased is pretty much unsurpassable there for ease-of-reading.
18:35:27 <ehird> But, ehh, 90 euros man
18:37:40 <ehird> I wonder if there is a Windows (un)archiver that exposes things as compressed folders As They Should Be.
18:37:48 <ehird> I like the integrated .zip support for that, but... it's just .zip.
18:38:54 <ehird> I'm going to be adventurous and try and sleep this computer now for a second.
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18:57:41 -!- zzo38 has set topic: MAHJONG FLU http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
19:00:24 <zzo38> Why what? Did you mean the TOPIC setting?
19:01:39 <zzo38> If you don't like it you can change it back, but I think it was changed to a few things it can change a few ways
19:01:53 <zzo38> Because yesterday I purchased Akagi DS game
19:02:04 <AnMaster> I just wondered what made you decide on mahjong
19:02:22 <zzo38> That's why, it is because I purchased Akagi DS game yesterday.
19:02:35 <zzo38> Maybe there is a esolangs idea for something having to do with mahjong game, too
19:02:41 <AnMaster> and this "akagi ds" is some sort of mahjong?
19:03:15 * AnMaster usually plays kmahjong when he plays mahjong (which isn't very often)
19:03:23 <zzo38> Akagi DS is a mahjong game for DS. It has a few unique features (such as ZawaZawa power, Washizu mahjong, story mode, and some others), but is generally inferior.
19:03:41 <AnMaster> DS being some old portable nintendo thingy iirc?
19:03:51 <AnMaster> or was gameboy the old thing and ds the modern one?
19:04:14 <zzo38> Kmahjong isn't a mahjong game as far as I can tell.
19:04:27 <zzo38> DS is the new Nintendo handheld system (except DSi is even more newer)
19:04:54 <zzo38> It is just one type of solitaire game that can be played with mahjong tiles.
19:05:08 <AnMaster> zzo38, well maybe. There are some other ones too
19:05:24 <zzo38> Mahjong is played with 4 people
19:05:54 <zzo38> Yes, Kshisen is another different solitaire mahjong game.
19:06:07 <AnMaster> zzo38, all games called "mahjong" that I have seen have been solitaire ones...
19:06:35 <zzo38> They call them "mahjong" because they use the mahjong tiles. But real mahjong game isn't like that.
19:07:15 <AnMaster> anyway I usually prefer games with a story. This means stuff like single player RPGs or adventure games. I'm a big fan of some of the zelda games for example
19:07:42 <zzo38> Akagi DS game has a story
19:07:43 <AnMaster> zelda a link to the past, and zelda ocarina of time would be my two top favourite ones
19:07:57 <zzo38> But you can play free mode also.
19:08:16 <AnMaster> zzo38, still quite far from the "story" in something like a RPG I assume?
19:09:54 <zzo38> It is more like a story than other mahjong games have, but not quite like you would see in a RPG
19:10:22 <zzo38> I now have the full collection of Akagi manga book 1-22
19:10:51 <zzo38> I have three mahjong games on my computer, Zootto Mahjong, Nantonaku Mahjong, 4-Winds Mahjong.
19:10:59 <zzo38> But I will write my own, too. Called XUL-Mahjong
19:14:15 <zzo38> Akagi DS game and Akagi manga book are all in Japanese, though. But I like it, especially with Washizu tiles.
19:14:51 <zzo38> Zootto Mahjong and Nantonaku Mahjong are also both in Japanese.
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19:20:36 <zzo38> Just now I searched for a mahjong game on Japanese SourceForge, I did find one, written in Ruby. Possibly I could try to figure it out to add some feature, such as Washizu tiles.
19:26:00 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_0C/yakuman.png http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_0C/mahjong1.png
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20:15:10 <AnMaster> http://bugs.python.org/issue1453http://bugs.python.org/issue1453 <-- hehe
20:15:51 * oerjan somehow found Lightning Made of Owls amusing today
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20:24:41 <AnMaster> btw my shift key is starting to get a slight jwz-look. Nothing as bad yet though
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21:34:15 <augur> ive moved to maryland and i dont have internet in my place yet
21:34:21 <augur> but that doesnt mean i dont love you! T_t
21:35:15 <augur> now, im off to the library
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21:45:02 <ehird> i don't love you, augur.
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22:20:21 <ehird> AnMaster: you were talking about eink response times?
22:20:22 <ehird> http://jwz.livejournal.com/1080224.html
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22:21:59 <ehird> (I secretly wish that one day, the web will be almost entirely Flash-based, and you will be forced to resort to using: gopher; no electricity; no running water; no surrounding society. Am I a bad person?)
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22:25:49 <AnMaster> ehird, http://bugs.python.org/issue1453http://bugs.python.org/issue1453 <-- your opinion? That issue exists in 3.1 too btw
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