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00:43:42 <ehird> i am from the future
00:43:57 <coppro> I traveled from 1992 to hear you say that.
00:44:06 <ehird> "i can reference xkcd
00:44:10 <ehird> i am culturally relevant"
00:44:26 <ehird> "and socially respectable, also."
00:44:35 <ehird> in the future we have no folly
00:45:49 <ehird> that looks so wrong.
00:49:46 <ehird> it's just part of the general if (x) y thing
00:49:52 <ehird> but you can do it for do/while, which looks freaky!
00:50:04 <ehird> I prefer K&R declarations
00:51:12 <pikhq> I prefer a proper typesystem.
00:51:15 <ehird> you know right there
00:51:18 <ehird> it's passing argc and argv
00:51:32 <ehird> main(int argc, char *argv[])
00:51:35 <ehird> the names are buried
00:51:38 <ehird> you have to digest it all at once
00:51:41 <ehird> which isn't very procedural
00:59:07 <ehird> but "modern" C looks so ugly.
00:59:07 <ehird> so unreadable. so much metacruft.
00:59:07 <coppro> K&R is a bit redundant, but the problem is that it has no type-safety
00:59:07 <ehird> how is that not type safe
00:59:07 <coppro> ehird: the caller sees "int foo (var)" and has no idea what to pass
00:59:07 <coppro> I completely agree about the ugliness
00:59:07 <coppro> the standards committee refuses to add keywords :(
00:59:07 <ehird> K&R is *easier* to digest
00:59:07 <ehird> you get some semi-descriptive names, so you know the general order; and then you can poke at the indented bit next (up to unindented { - very easy to spot) and see the specific types for each
00:59:07 <ehird> and this also makes it easier to read linearly too
00:59:07 <ehird> with more indentation
00:59:07 <coppro> no, I mean the declaration
00:59:07 <ehird> there's a tab before those argc/argv type lines
00:59:07 <coppro> for the definition it's fine
00:59:07 <ehird> for the declaration, do
00:59:07 <ehird> int main(int,char*[]) or something
00:59:07 <ehird> because declarations are shit
00:59:07 <ehird> they're just hacks for compilers
00:59:07 <ehird> so I don't really care about style in declarations
00:59:07 <coppro> declarations are also hacks for people
00:59:07 <ehird> yes. declarations are a portal to perfect understanding of a function
00:59:07 <ehird> that's why we don't have any man pages.
00:59:07 <ehird> execve(const char *path, char *const argv[], char *const envp[]);
00:59:07 <ehird> I know comprehend everything about execve
00:59:07 * coppro is not a fan of a manpage-per-function approach
00:59:07 <ehird> snprintf(char *restrict s, size_t n, const char *restrict format, ...);
00:59:07 <GregorR> void *mmap(void *addr, size_t length, int prot, int flags,
00:59:07 <ehird> GregorR: Oh! It's obvious!
00:59:07 <coppro> ehird: I agree. Still easier to scan a file than load up the documentation and attempt to track something down
00:59:07 <ehird> header files never include docs.
00:59:07 <ehird> how about I just stab my eyes out with a brick wall
00:59:14 <ehird> and then castrate myself by bashing my penis through my eye sockets repeatedly
00:59:18 <ehird> lobotomising myself in the process
00:59:25 <ehird> that would be significantly less painful
00:59:30 <ehird> and way more enjoyable
00:59:40 <ehird> it could be just the same
00:59:43 <coppro> go ahead. At least I wouldn't have to listen to you complain about non-Haskell languages
00:59:58 <ehird> yes, because the only language I like is haskell
01:00:08 <ehird> anyway you don't even get to say anything. you *like* c++
01:00:19 <ehird> you're basically like a jew
01:00:22 <coppro> where did I say I like C++
01:00:27 <ehird> insignificant and never has any useful opinions!
01:01:06 <coppro> I said I program C++ by choice, I did not say I like the language
01:01:29 <ehird> okay then, you're into masochism
01:02:40 * coppro should do some homework
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01:04:40 <ehird> why is main() of type int, dammit
01:04:45 <ehird> it makes people use return in one function
01:04:48 <ehird> and exit() in another
01:05:08 <ehird> it should be void and the caller of main() should have exit(0) afterwards. gr.
01:18:09 <pikhq> Because C is a ridiculously inconsistent language.
01:19:06 <pikhq> Also, C++ headers are genuinely *awful*.
01:19:20 <pikhq> Especially for the standard template library.
01:21:22 <GregorR> Keep in mind that usu _start just calls exit with the return from main :P
01:27:21 <ehird> GregorR: I KNOW IT'S SO STUPID
01:27:30 <ehird> they have to have been purposefully dense to do it this way.
01:31:15 <ehird> I AM GOING TO MURDER YOU
01:32:59 <ehird> http://downloadmoreram.com/
01:42:28 <ehird> C needs things like != x → x = !x
01:44:54 <pikhq> C needs many things.
01:45:00 <pikhq> None of which are in C++.
01:45:06 <ehird> grid[x][y] = !grid[x][y]
01:45:10 <ehird> "hurr I suck cocks"
01:45:13 <ehird> "hurr I make you repeat"
01:45:22 <ehird> "hurr because i suck cocks"
01:56:58 <ehird> http://sites.google.com/site/ryanbroomfield/xkcd-sans-women
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02:34:41 <Sgeo> What's "Sgeo-cybernetics"?
02:35:18 <ehird> How the flying fuck are we meant to know?!?!?!!
02:35:27 <Sgeo> http://ccbb.biosci.utexas.edu/seminars.html
02:35:38 * Sgeo just thinks it's humerous
02:36:00 <ehird> 15:01:35 <Sgeo> http://ccbb.biosci.utexas.edu/seminars.html
02:36:00 <ehird> 15:01:47 <Sgeo> "The term "Sgeo-cybernetics" was first proposed in 2005 by Reyes et.al."
02:36:29 * Sgeo googled for Sgeo-cybernetics, but found no further information
02:36:48 <ehird> your memory is short
02:37:13 <Sgeo> "The term "Sgeo-cybernetics" was first proposed in 2005 by Reyes et.al." . I meant further than that
02:37:48 <ehird> you mentioned this more than a year ago
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03:29:04 <ehird> * Fri Aug 07 2009 Kristian Høgsberg <krh@redhat.com> - 2.8.0-4
03:29:04 <ehird> - Add dri2-page-flip.patch to enable full screen pageflipping.
03:29:06 <ehird> http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=126369
03:31:10 <GregorR> http://www.explosm.net/comics/1785/ Everyone must watch this. Everyeone.
03:32:04 <ehird> cyanide and happiness eh
03:32:07 <ehird> i have a guess GregorR
03:32:13 <ehird> does it involve sex or murder
03:32:27 <ehird> it's a stretch i know
03:32:32 <GregorR> To the first two: Only extremely proximally. To the latter: No.
03:32:42 <GregorR> It's an animation. And it's unbelievable. It's ... omg just watch it.
03:32:45 <ehird> are you sure this is a cyanide and happiness production
03:32:49 <ehird> also does it requirea udio.
03:33:00 * Sgeo will, once Code::Blocks is installed, write his own linked list implementation, to see if he can
03:33:12 <ehird> Wow Sgeo, you can write your own linked list implementation using an IDE
03:33:15 <ehird> Master programmer.
03:33:19 <ehird> You must be so proud of yourself.
03:33:24 <GregorR> Yeah, because linked lists are a wildly difficult beast :P
03:33:34 <ehird> Totally. You need a whole installed IDE to tackle them.
03:33:47 <GregorR> ehird: It's the debugging.
03:33:52 <Sgeo> I'm too lazy to figure out gcc or g++ or whatever >.>
03:33:54 <GregorR> ehird: Inevitably you'll have segfaults up the wazoo
03:34:20 <ehird> please kill yourself :|
03:34:45 <GregorR> I didn't read the name, I thought that was ehird making fun of Sgeo.
03:34:50 <GregorR> Because it's too stupid of a statement otherwise.
03:37:49 <GregorR> oerjan: Watchin' the awesomeness? 8-D
03:40:12 <GregorR> It's so wonderfully dramatic!
04:06:11 <Sgeo> http://codepad.org/XZMPOHm8
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04:14:08 <ehird> Sgeo: you're so special.
04:14:19 <ehird> bool result = true;
04:14:20 <ehird> result *= !(this->next()) || (this->next()->prev() == this);
04:14:20 <ehird> result *= !(this->prev()) || (this->prev()->next() == this);
04:14:25 <ehird> ladies and gentlemen
04:14:32 <ehird> Sgeo is retarded at boolean logic
04:14:52 <Sgeo> After I posted it, I realized that I should have replaced the || with && and gotten rid of the !
04:15:00 <ehird> i like how yours isn't even a linked list, just a node
04:15:07 <ehird> the user has to handle pushing himself.
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04:22:54 <MizardX> No way of changing the prev_item slot.
04:23:11 <ehird> you are tenacity incarnate
04:23:28 <ehird> now who are you, scoundrel.
04:24:05 <Tenacity> I've hardly had a chance to earn that title
04:24:23 <ehird> okay, let's ask a more direct question
04:24:28 <ehird> where did you come from
04:25:37 <Sgeo> It was just meant to be me practicing making a class in C++, nothing major
04:26:02 <ehird> Sgeo: anybody who can't write a good linked list implementation in 5 minutes is a bad programmer, simple as
04:26:10 <ehird> Tenacity: we stab tricksy people, btw.
04:26:39 <ehird> also this channel is about programming languages.
04:26:43 <Tenacity> Oh, i shall don my stab proof armour, over my flame retardant armour
04:27:18 <ehird> am i right Tenacity.
04:27:42 <Tenacity> right about what? being a bad programmer?
04:28:05 <ehird> anyway you'd better not be here for the esoterick magick. that only goes on in the backroom.
04:28:16 <ehird> stringent initiation procedures and all.
04:28:41 <Tenacity> oic. Well I shall keep my intentions well hidden until then
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04:31:54 <Tenacity> so no summoning in this channel?
04:33:51 <ehird> absolutely, cough, not.
04:52:43 * coppro just read that RollerCoaster Tycoon was entirely assembly
04:55:32 <oerjan> <ehird> now who are you, scoundrel. <-- i'm going to assume you secretly know Tenacity from before, as otherwise i think this channel is _really_ going downhill
04:56:06 <oerjan> ah, you just think it is getting too crowded in here?
04:56:20 <ehird> i wasn't actually, you know, being serious
04:59:16 <oerjan> well i am of the persuation that one should actually know people a bit before teasing them with insults. you may have heard of this concept called "misunderstandings".
05:03:14 <ehird> oerjan: when you consider the general rowdy atmosphere of this place I think anyone who gets offended enough to leave by the amusingly archaic insult "scoundrel" has no chance...
05:03:27 <ehird> in fact i'd say that prolly applies to the internet in general.
05:03:54 <oerjan> oh it's archaic? i may have missed some nuance here...
05:04:20 <ehird> "scoundrel" evokes images of top hats and curled moustaches.
05:05:03 * oerjan beats ehird severely with his cane O========O
05:05:19 <ehird> cane or double-ended penis
05:05:33 <oerjan> i _knew_ i shouldn't have tried to draw that.
05:07:19 <oerjan> ^ul (Rare on topic message for newcomers)!((0)(1)):^!S(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^
05:07:20 <fungot> 011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011001101001100101101001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010010110 ...too much output!
05:08:03 * oerjan wonders when the last one was, but is too lazy to find out
05:08:09 <Tenacity> *dons his scoundrel hat and 'stache*
05:08:40 <ehird> Tenacity: yeah, dickwad.
05:08:47 <ehird> see that humour i did there
05:08:53 <ehird> i defended my jokingly archaic insult
05:09:04 <ehird> and followed up a mention of it with a decidedly non-archaic insult!
05:09:08 <ehird> just call me mr humour.
05:09:36 <oerjan> it's just i have this vague recall of #esoteric being an unusually friendly place, once upon a time.
05:10:07 <ehird> i'm friendly! as long as you always agree with me.
05:10:20 <ehird> oerjan: also, blame AnMaster. :P
05:10:34 <oerjan> i blame the Malicious Duo
05:11:35 <oerjan> but then i also have this vague recall of it often being on topic, but that may be just confirmation bias.
05:11:57 <ehird> oerjan: i read logs from 2002.
05:12:08 <ehird> esolangs were a rare topic
05:12:50 <ehird> it was mostly life-related chat tbh. also i remember skimming through logs and seeing lament make a sarcastic comment about it being a channel about manga and lack of a social life, not esolangs.
05:13:10 <oerjan> now manga we haven't had for a while i think
05:13:13 <ehird> though 2005-2007 was quite an esolangy era in my estimation
05:13:32 <ehird> i'm totally the channel's official archivist.
05:14:02 <ehird> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/04.01.01
05:15:44 <ehird> oerjan: to reminisce of more esotericy times, try http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/06.10.05
05:15:50 <ehird> it is worryingly long and esoteric
05:16:27 <coppro> that sounds vaguely ontopic!
05:16:40 <ehird> but that's my point!
05:16:47 <ehird> it truly was a dark era.
05:17:04 <ehird> anyway we've gotten steadily more active over the years, never dropping more than slightly
05:17:15 <ehird> so i suppose from a pure activity point of view this is the best!
05:18:55 * oerjan hits back before he gets nostalgia overload
05:19:06 <ehird> you can die of that.
05:19:36 <oerjan> yes. i used to do that back in the day. *AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA*
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07:17:17 <MizardX> With JSON, you can make the commas and colons optional to save some space. {"foo"1"bar"[1,2nulltrue3]}
07:19:38 <MizardX> They are only needed to separate one number from another.
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08:18:09 <olsner> isn't foo: shorter than "foo"?
08:21:54 <MizardX> But then more commas are required, too be able to discern between '"foo1"' and '"foo", 1'. 'null', 'true' and 'false' would also need to be surrounded by separators.
08:22:46 <MizardX> if 'null', 'true' and 'false' are the only word-like values, they do not need to be surrounded by separators.
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08:25:52 <fizzie> Is this "you could make", or actually "you are right now allowed to make"? I mean, at least the RFC4627 defining the application/json MIME type has a BNF that explicitly requires value-separators (commas) and name-separators (colons).
08:32:48 <fizzie> Well, I guess you're allowed to make whatever you want; it's just that it sounded like "you can just do this and it'll work with existing JSON parsers and everything".
08:35:43 <Deewiant> I love it when two different course-info-reporting systems are in conflict with each other; one says there's a lecture right now and the other says there isn't. Of course I only noticed the former and now I'm at school with nothing to do
08:40:48 <MizardX> fizzie: "you could make"... but then it wouldn't be JSON.
08:50:57 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oodi and Noppa, or something else?
08:51:18 <Deewiant> With Oodi being the incorrect one this time
08:51:41 <fizzie> The latter should get lecture information from the former, though. Except that I guess people only list exceptions in Noppa newsposts and so on.
08:52:32 <fizzie> Or maybe the data transfer from one to another was more of a theoretical thing, actually; I think I remember manually adding lectures to Noppa.
08:54:31 <Deewiant> There was a separate news item in Noppa saying that lectures start on tuesday
08:54:47 <Deewiant> The actual lecture time data probably states monday in both places.
08:56:48 <fizzie> Right, well, given that Oodi is this mysterious hulking beast, I'm not surprised they don't list "hey, let's skip the technically first lecture and start on Tuesday" decisions there.
08:58:22 <fizzie> For the AI course, it was reasonably simple to get the per-course "admin" bit set for my Noppa account, but we didn't even try to get me officially registered as the course-responsible-person-guy in Oodi, it seemed far too difficult.
08:59:14 <fizzie> I wonder what's going to happen to the AI course now that the professor who used to be lecturing it has left.
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16:54:19 <ehird> [[Hard to keep a project under wraps and get an audience at the same
16:54:19 <ehird> time, it is. I do realise it was inevitable LKML would invade my
16:54:19 <ehird> personal space no matter how much I didn't want it to, but it would be
16:54:19 <ehird> rude of me to not respond.]]
16:54:20 <ehird> — Con Kolivas, on the audacity of *someone on LKML benchmarking his scheduler!!!!!*
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17:45:00 <ehird> Guess he should administrate some of that anaesthetic to himself huh? Oh I'm so witty.
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19:50:55 <AnMaster> 7 Sep 20:50:35 ntpdate[9865]: adjust time server 192.36.143.153 offset 0.000063 sec
19:51:07 <AnMaster> that's quite accurate it managed to keep my clock
19:52:50 <AnMaster> that's on my desktop though, it seems less able to sync on my laptop
20:27:21 <Ilari> 0.042874s here. Last sync was who knows how many days ago. But I set clock rate correction manually (not running ntpd):
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20:29:17 <Ilari> Correction parameters: Frequency: 1 957 969, Tick: 10 000.
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20:46:43 <AnMaster> Ilari, I run ntpd and it has been running continuously for weeks now
20:46:43 <AnMaster> on my laptop it is far from as good
20:46:43 <AnMaster> Ilari, also what are those parameters for/from?
20:47:20 <Ilari> AnMaster: They are kernel parameters controlling clock rate correction. Tick is left at default value, frequency is computed from ntp time step data.
20:47:53 <AnMaster> plus... how much frequency is off varies over time due to stuff like temperature of the clock source in the computer and so on
20:48:02 <Ilari> AnMaster: tick is coarse correction and frequency is fine correction.
20:48:29 <AnMaster> Ilari, why are you setting it manually?
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21:11:22 <AnMaster> <Ilari> AnMaster: tick is coarse correction and frequency is fine correction.
21:11:22 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> still, why not ntpd
21:11:22 <Ilari> Because its name ends in 'd'? I definitely want to keep everything listening to the net at minimum.
21:11:23 <Ilari> Not that I wouldn't have a firewall, but still.
21:11:23 <AnMaster> Ilari, you can set it to not provide a server
21:11:23 <Ilari> Probably. But clock on this computer isn't that important.
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21:11:25 <fizzie> This desktop of mine has recently (er, well, "not always"; it has been quite a while) somehow caught the habit of having a horrible clock drift; something like 2 milliseconds per second. (So almost three minutes per day.)
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21:13:37 <Ilari> So looks like its losing ticks...
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21:23:49 <fizzie> Oh, and dmesg prints out "Clocksource tsc unstable (delta = -152506783 ns)" immediately after loading the nvidia binary blob; might be related.
21:24:49 <Ilari> Well, that could explain things...
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21:25:53 <Ilari> Quite odd that TSC (processor time stamp counter) would become unstable.
21:26:28 <fizzie> Alternative blame-target is the vboxdrv module; it also prints out TSC/timing-related messages, like "vboxdrv: TSC mode is 'asynchronous', kernel timer mode is 'normal'."
21:26:35 <fizzie> Should investigate this some day.
21:28:20 <ais523> hmm... why would someone advertise US healthcare insurance to a .co.uk email address?
21:30:38 <Ilari> Spammers usually aren't very careful in restricting spam distribution...
21:53:12 <fizzie> Heh, should've quit while I was ahead; there was a "current_clocksource" file in sysfs, and since available_clocksources listed many (hpet, acpi_pm, jiffies, tsc) decided to echo those one by one into current_clocksource to see if the drift keeps happening for all. Current was hpet, acpi_pm didn't really cause any effects, but when I put "jiffies" in there, everything hung up "needs-sysrq"-badly.
21:56:12 <Ilari> Yeah, system clock freezing probably does not do good to system function.
21:59:44 <AnMaster> <Ilari> Quite odd that TSC (processor time stamp counter) would become unstable.
21:59:58 <AnMaster> I get that here, due to cpu frequency changes
22:01:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, I would recommend using not changing that except at boot
22:01:36 <AnMaster> with the clocksource parameter
22:01:44 <AnMaster> at least I had crashes when changing on the fly
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22:05:28 <fizzie> Yes, it seemed like a bad idea.
22:05:52 <fizzie> Anyway, I don't do cpufreq on the desktop (because it's unable to), so I'm still blaming one of those modules.
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22:06:48 <coppro> :( lack of shockwave player on linux (closely related to ":( who the fuck uses shockwave")
22:08:04 <fizzie> I had a five minutes of incomprehension on "what, Ubuntu doesn't have the Flash player suitably packaged?", before realizing that not supporting Linux/PPC isn't really their fault.
22:11:35 <coppro> Flash and Shockwave are different
22:11:39 <coppro> and Shockwave has a Mac version
22:11:52 <coppro> and Ubuntu does have a Flash installer package that works fine
22:12:56 <fizzie> It doesn't have a PowerPC Flash installer package, because the only PowerPC-supporting Flash player is for OS X.
22:13:47 <fizzie> And I know they are different. I don't think I knew about Shockwave's Mac version, though; but really, why would someone use shockwave nowadays?
22:14:40 <fizzie> The only Shockwave app I can think of offhand is that Habbo Hotel chat-place.
22:26:30 <ais523> coppro: oh, for a moment I thought you meant there was some Flash app that installed Ubuntu
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22:42:14 * coppro wants a good flash game that makes him think, but not too hard
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23:48:24 <Sgeo> can mes hab ball 4 slide pweaze yuhs neber gabezz it tew mes thankiez yuhz
23:48:41 * Sgeo suddenly realizes what that's intended to say