00:26:10 <Azstal> I sort of wish I couldn't tell what it says.
00:30:01 <Sgeo> I guess I should give this person the ball.
00:30:17 <Sgeo> But right now, I'm trying to apply brain bleach to my eyes
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02:58:59 <zzo38> There is something wrong with my internet, I don't know who to ask (technical support says nothing is wrong on their end).
02:59:13 <zzo38> Inbound connections to port 70 don't work (it worked yesterday)
02:59:57 <Sgeo> Any software changes? Firewall changes? Router changes? Do inbound connections to other ports work?
03:00:40 <zzo38> O no, I checked everything. The router settings are correct, the service works (connecting to localhost works), inbound connections on port 80 still work, outbound connections on port 70 work, and when using a proxy I get the same results.
03:01:44 <zzo38> I checked the DNS, tried stopping and restarting the service, rebooting the router, everything else too.
03:02:28 <zzo38> And it worked yesterday.
03:02:37 <zzo38> Where can I ask for help?
03:02:53 <zzo38> Unfortunately I don't know, so I tried this channel for nearly no reason
03:06:07 <Sgeo> Pandora stores passwords in plain-text!
03:06:47 <zzo38> There is no software change or firewall change or router change.
03:07:18 <zzo38> Port 25 doesn't work either
03:07:56 <zzo38> Technical support says they didn't change anything, but I'm not sure they know about it correctly.
03:07:57 <Sgeo> Are you on a university/college network?
03:08:29 <zzo38> Port 25 isn't always open anyways (I just started the SMTP server to test it, and it failed)
03:08:36 <Sgeo> s/plain-text//
03:08:59 <zzo38> But port 70 is definitely work, by localhost, but not by remote. Port 80 works local and remote.
03:10:13 <zzo38> And it worked fine yesterday.
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03:32:41 <coppro> someone explain to me why a P9500 is so much more expensive than a T9600. Please don't lecture me, etc. hardware is boring and I just want to know what reason I may have to buy a slower machine
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04:58:23 <coppro> ""Ubuntu", an african word meaning, "Gentoo is too hard for me""
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06:47:14 <ais523> comex: that joke's normally done with Debian rather than Gentoo
06:50:48 <fizzie> Yes, "African word for 'can't install Debian'" is the form I'm more familiar with.
06:52:23 <fizzie> See for example urbandictionary.com, which has as the first meaning: "1. ubuntu: Ubuntu is an ancient african word, meaning "I can't configure Debian"." (Admittedly that's not "install" there.)
06:53:13 <fizzie> What I did not know is that "ubuntu" apparently also means: "To ejaculate on a womans face."
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07:40:30 <oerjan> with the structure of bantu languages in mind, ubuntu and gentu could easily be forms of the same word... not so with debian.
07:40:56 <oerjan> (bantu and ubuntu are, for one thing)
07:41:21 <ais523> fizzie: urbandictionary is full of duff meanings
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09:25:59 <ais523> http://ck.kolivas.org/patches/bfs/bfs-faq.txt
09:26:06 <ais523> unfortunately, I don't think it's actually written in brainfuck
09:26:20 <ais523> I'm still trying to figure out if the name's a reference or not, though
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13:03:38 <ais523> ugh, it seems that Virgin Media have some sort of custom search page that comes up for pages like http://nosuchdomain.invalid
13:03:51 <ais523> luckily it has an opt-out which AFAICT a) actually works, and b) doesn't use cookies
13:12:44 <fizzie> Isn't the slang term for that to "do a Verisign"?
13:15:23 <fizzie> Incidentally, I wonder how many $'s are implied by all the legal text at http://www.icann.org/en/general/litigation-verisign.htm
13:15:47 <fizzie> (For the lawyers that generated the text, I mean.)
13:19:25 * ais523 wonders if .invalid has an entry for it in the root DNS servers
13:19:39 <ais523> it is a real TLD, after all; but there are (deliberately) no sites on it
13:24:24 <fizzie> At least k.root-servers.net just says NXDOMAIN.
13:25:22 <fizzie> It is the Kewlest root-server of them all.
13:27:54 <fizzie> It has this fancy anycast distributed thing: http://k.root-servers.org/
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14:20:11 <comex> ais523: good for you
14:20:22 <comex> my ISP has an opt-out, it doesn't use cookies, the real deal
14:20:25 <comex> unfortunately, it doesn't work
14:20:35 <ais523> ofc I just opted-out everyone else on the same connection
14:20:38 <ais523> but that's probably a good thing
14:21:10 <comex> clicking the button didn't do anything
14:21:13 <comex> so I switched to opendns
14:21:33 <ais523> the NXDOMAIN-replacement pages seem to have long caches
14:21:39 <ais523> but new nonexistent pages work fine
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17:10:24 <Deewiant> We have ELF and DWARF; where's ORC?
17:15:32 <oerjan> is DWARF an executable format?
17:18:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I assume DWARF was a joke on ELF?
17:20:08 <FireFly> Wiki says it was, apparently
17:20:12 <oerjan> well ORC should be something suitably evil. perhaps some kind of report format for pointy-haired bosses?
17:20:28 <Deewiant> It could be the Windows executable format
17:21:36 <Deewiant> I assumed you were refuting my statement
17:22:00 <oerjan> AnMaster: i think there's a *whoosh* hidden inside the first dot there
17:22:20 <AnMaster> stop using such a lossy compression scheme
17:23:04 <Deewiant> It's not among my habits to tell people "you missed/misunderstood my joke"
17:23:18 <Deewiant> I'd rather just assume they're idiots and leave it at that
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17:27:51 <AnMaster> what does me scoring top marks at a math exam signify I wonder...
17:29:17 <AnMaster> oh ehird isn't here. guess that is why he hasn't made any foul remark yet
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17:57:01 <Ilari> I got an idea for esolang. The actual runtime would execute code in tree form. Before running, the source would be run through preprocessor which built the tree for running, also containing operations to modify what's already built (move substrees, copy subtrees, delete subtrees). So that for any program X and tree Y, there exists Z such that X is prefix of Z and processes to Y.
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18:00:28 * Asztal sheds a tear in memory of Malcom, the 1TB hard drive, who died before his time :'(
18:01:27 <AnMaster> are there any algorithms that have an exponential memory upper bound but a linear upper time bound?
18:04:05 <oerjan> you cannot use more memory than time in a sequential algorithm
18:04:47 <Ilari> In the other way around, you can't use more than exponentially more time than you use memory.
18:05:12 <Ilari> So PSPACE is subset of EXPTIME.
18:06:46 <Ilari> That is, the preprocessor could patch anything already built into anything.
18:12:01 <Ilari> Its just at idea stage... One has to define what operations are supported and what their semantics are.
18:13:48 <Ilari> For the preproc, insert node, delete subtree, copy subtree, move subtree could be good set of operations...
18:14:05 <Ilari> Oh, and alter node.
18:17:18 <Ilari> Have various versions of source in one file, with next patching the previous, and the code quickly becomes too convoluted to follow...
18:17:24 <AnMaster> Ilari, what about paste subtree
18:17:29 <AnMaster> to make it some evil editing script like
18:18:04 <AnMaster> a copy-and-paste preprocessor XD
18:18:23 <Ilari> Err, cut-n-paste => move, copy-n-paste => copy.
18:19:23 <AnMaster> Ilari, yes hm but it should only have one copy buffer to hold the thing
18:19:51 <AnMaster> and it should be as an edit script or so
18:20:52 <Ilari> The edit preprocessor being complicated isn't the idea. The idea is to make the actual program (parse tree) effectively unfollowable by patching it bit-by-bit.
18:21:35 <AnMaster> Ilari, it would be another interesting preprocessor that was basically copy-and-paste operation (what then is the point of a preprocessor one could ask!)
18:22:57 <Ilari> Probably no... Would make things too logical.
18:23:41 <AnMaster> Ilari, depends on the macros... I mean you can make quite a mess with both C macros and LISP macros
18:25:40 <Ilari> Stuff like: ADD 1 SEQUENCE; ADD 1.1 PRINT "World"; ADD 1.2 PRINT "!"; ADD 1.1 PRINT " "; ADD 1.1 PRINT "Hello"; ALTER 1.2 PRINT ", ";
18:27:13 <AnMaster> Ilari, hm, what is 1.1 and so on
18:28:56 <AnMaster> Ilari, obfuscation seems rather optional here, I mean, nothing prevents you from writing non-obfuscated programs?
18:29:27 <AnMaster> ADD 1 SEQUENCE; ADD 1.1 PRINT "Hello world";
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18:30:11 <AnMaster> Ilari, one thing that could make it more confusing would be "RENAME SEQUENCE"
18:30:39 <Ilari> AnMaster: ADD 1 SEQUENCE; ADD 1.1 PRINT "Hello, World!"; ... It also tends to become funky when building larger trees...
18:31:19 <AnMaster> Ilari, what is the add sequence thing btw?
18:31:52 <Ilari> AnMaster: SEQUENCE is just "run nodes below here in order" operator.
18:32:39 <AnMaster> Ilari, this some similar to my SQL+HTML combination kind of
18:32:40 <Ilari> Actually, it could be 'ADD 1 PRINT "Hello, World!"; if there was impiled SEQUENCE at root level.
18:33:01 <AnMaster> I mean, declaring a tree through a complex upper caseish language
18:33:53 <AnMaster> which was like INSERT THE ELEMENT p INTO THE ELEMENT body WHICH IS A CHILD OF html
18:34:05 <AnMaster> and then references to first and second and so on
18:34:25 <AnMaster> (it was made to be very verbose English)
18:34:52 <AnMaster> I don't remember exact syntax I had, and the irc logs from then are on archive cd
18:35:02 <AnMaster> sometime in this channel, 2008 or 2009
18:35:41 <Ilari> And the references inside operations should maybe resolved when encountering them. Would do really funky things to code structure if one of the operations was GOTO...
18:36:40 <Ilari> You can't jump forward unless you make some really messy code.
18:37:29 <Ilari> And of course there would be equivalent to COBOL ALTER keyword: ALTER x.y.z GOTO a.b.c;... :-)
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18:38:37 <Ilari> ALTER from COBOL is quite probably the nastiest operation (from mainintance p.o.v.) ever seen in any mainstream language.
18:39:30 <AnMaster> Ilari, I don't know what this ALTER does
18:40:09 <AnMaster> Ilari, what about the actual language though, the bit that will then run
18:40:20 <AnMaster> it should be quite complex too IMO
18:40:44 <AnMaster> otherwise you could just run preprocessor and dump the result to understand how the program worked
18:41:01 <Ilari> Change target of GOTO. And it had really nice interactions with segmentation. ALTER + segmentation => run away screaming...
18:41:02 <AnMaster> oh and IMO goto is hell even from a coding point of view
18:41:20 <AnMaster> Ilari, segmentation as in segmented memory on x86?
18:41:30 <Ilari> More like manual swapping.
18:42:57 <Ilari> Obsoleted by virtual memory. Well, unless one wants to make stuff unmaintainable by mixing segmentation with ALTER.
18:44:04 <AnMaster> Ilari, so why would segmentation and ALTER interact badly?
18:44:50 <Ilari> IIRC, if segment containg ALTERed GOTOs was swapped out, the modifications to jumps were lost, so when reloading it, the jumps reset to their default destinations.
18:45:23 <AnMaster> Ilari, that sounds like "reset" rather than "swap out whatever is in memory"
18:46:20 <Ilari> Swap out really freed the memory occupied by segment.
18:47:08 <Ilari> So there would be space to load another segment in.
18:47:59 <AnMaster> Ilari, and discarded any data in it?
18:48:52 <Ilari> One probably also could swap out data segments. Those didn't reset when reloading.
18:50:33 <Ilari> I think it assumed that code segments are always 'clean' (and ALTER broke that assumption).
18:52:36 <Ilari> Remember, this was on era when even virtual memory wasn't common on mainframes...
18:54:07 <Ilari> And even mainframes didn't have multitasking but ran the tasks batch-style.
18:59:44 <AnMaster> Ilari, have you ever coded COBOL?
19:00:21 <AnMaster> Have you ever had a job where you coded COBOL?
19:01:32 <Ilari> No, I haven't coded COBOL. Just ran across that information about COBOL once.
19:03:11 <pikhq> COBOL was actually less awful than many people give it credit. It was designed long before we had *any* clue what makes a good programming language.
19:03:25 <pikhq> The only other languages out there were the languages that COBOL was based on.
19:05:18 <Deewiant> Algol and co. of course as well.
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19:11:43 <Deewiant> I think it was around the same time
19:17:35 <EgoBot> 118 +++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++>++>+<<<<-]>---.>----.+++++++..+++.>++.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>-----. [459]
19:17:50 <EgoBot> 110 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>. [315]
19:17:58 <EgoBot> 126 ++++++++[>+++++++++>++++>+><<<<-]>.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++..+++.>.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>++. [601]
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19:25:20 <Deewiant> bf_txtgen, how does it do its thing
19:26:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, genetic algorithm based on the form "set constant, set some other constants based on the first, print stuff and use +/- as needed as you go along"
19:27:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well think so, or one of those other "find good value" thingies. I'm not sure if it does recombination or not
19:27:36 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ . Cheers and patches (preferably hg bundles) can be sent to Richards@codu.org , PayPal donations can be sent to AKAQuinn@hotmail.com , complaints can be sent to /dev/null
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19:28:21 <AnMaster> anyone know what a good type to represent a tree would be in python?
19:28:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, parse tree of loops for bf for example
19:29:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, trying to learn python so decided to write a trivial non-optimising bf interpreter in it
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19:30:28 <AnMaster> and the sanest way is to make [ have the stuff in the loop as it's "children"
19:30:41 <AnMaster> at least the sanest way I can think of
19:30:53 <Deewiant> I guess just the basic thing: a class Node which contains a list of Nodes.
19:31:08 <Deewiant> Or call it whatever you want, I tend to call stuff like that Node.
19:31:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or a list containing either add,sub,print,read or a nested list?
19:32:47 <AnMaster> if not, how does one define some arbitrary symbolic name to represent an abstract value?
19:32:58 <AnMaster> in C you would generally use an enum or #define it
19:33:10 <AnMaster> in erlang you just use an atom
19:33:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and what do you do in python?
19:33:39 <Deewiant> There appears to be a library for symbols, if that's what you want: http://pypi.python.org/pypi/SymbolType
19:33:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is it built into the language itself like enums and such?
19:34:23 <Deewiant> Libraries typically aren't builtin
19:34:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't know how much a python library can change the language. Considering what can be done to perl...
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19:34:56 <Deewiant> You can look at the examples on that page, I believe
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19:39:34 * AnMaster wonders how to write a bf parser without tail recursion....
19:39:44 <AnMaster> surely it shouldn't be any harder...
19:40:00 <AnMaster> well, the tail recursion one would be a lot more elegant, sigh
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19:45:34 <AnMaster> as in, put functions in a dictionary and call the relevant entry?
19:45:45 <Deewiant> Instead of switch (foo) { case x ... } you can have an AA with x as a key and call the function at foo
19:48:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, um one of the possible actions is returning from the function, I'm not sure how that could be acomplished
19:48:50 <Deewiant> Make it return false or whatever in that case
19:52:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, any idea why: (loop, i) = parse_prog(program, i+1)
19:52:22 <AnMaster> oh wait, python doesn't have pattern matching does it :(
19:52:35 <Deewiant> I'm not going to list them all in response to the problem description "doesn't work"
19:52:36 <AnMaster> it seemed the obvious and elegant way
19:52:44 <AnMaster> ValueError: too many values to unpack
19:53:08 <Deewiant> Are you sure you're returning a pair from there always?
19:55:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok... wtf: mylist += 'foo' adds the element foo at the end as expected. mylist += ['foo', 'bar'] instead concatenates...
19:55:22 <AnMaster> (and I wanted to add the list as an element
19:55:58 <Deewiant> It's what I'd expect from a dynamic-type language like that
19:56:13 <Deewiant> Using + for concatenation is bad enough IMO :-P
19:57:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how does one reload a python module that one imported without exiting and restarting the REPL (or whatever you call the python interpreter shell thingy)
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20:03:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah #python says it is reload(module) but "don't do it, because stuff will break"
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20:41:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, mylist += ("a", "pair")
20:42:51 <Deewiant> It might, if lists and pairs are the same thing
20:43:21 <Deewiant> So they're essentially considered lists in that sense
20:43:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I don't know enough either
20:43:48 <AnMaster> also they aren't pairs, they are tuples actually
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20:56:29 <AnMaster> what do you use in python to print a string with no following space or newline
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21:32:35 <GregorR> AnMaster, Deewiant: I did not write bf_txtgen, calamari did. I didn't write most of what's in EgoBot, for that matter.
21:32:54 <AnMaster> GregorR, well true, but thought you wrote that one
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23:22:48 <ehird> I have RSI now! :P
23:26:17 <ehird> 15:48:24 <Sgeo> can mes hab ball 4 slide pweaze yuhs neber gabezz it tew mes thankiez yuhz
23:27:14 <ehird> 19:08:36 <Sgeo> s/plain-text//
23:27:18 <ehird> pandora stores passwords in WHERE?!
23:27:36 <ehird> 19:32:41 <coppro> someone explain to me why a P9500 is so much more expensive than a T9600. Please don't lecture me, etc. hardware is boring and I just want to know what reason I may have to buy a slower machine
23:27:40 <ehird> i would answer, but you said hardware is boring.
23:27:49 <ehird> 22:52:23 <fizzie> See for example urbandictionary.com, which has as the first meaning: "1. ubuntu: Ubuntu is an ancient african word, meaning "I can't configure Debian"." (Admittedly that's not "install" there.)
23:27:57 <ehird> pretty sure Mark Pilgrim initiated it with "configure Debian"
23:28:33 <coppro> ehird: is it cache size or something?
23:28:42 <ehird> coppro: what are the two costs?
23:28:53 <coppro> ehird: like $100 difference
23:29:10 <ehird> coppro: one's newer. perhaps one uses 45nm and the other uses 60nm or something
23:29:17 <ehird> coppro: perhaps extra cache. a whole bunch of things.
23:29:26 <ehird> coppro: who are you buying this from?
23:30:01 <ehird> both have the same cache, both are 45nm
23:30:18 <ehird> coppro: T9600 is more power-hungry
23:30:24 <ehird> your battery will last longer on the P9500
23:30:27 <ehird> although I can't say how much by
23:30:46 <ehird> P9500 is slower in raw ghz, ofc
23:31:00 <ehird> both have the same bus speed...
23:31:16 <ehird> coppro: if you care about battery life and don't need uber performance, get the P9500
23:31:30 <ehird> if you want to save whole SECONDS on your gcc compile, get the T9600
23:31:38 <ehird> (or if you want to save $$$, ofc)
23:31:53 <ehird> coppro: what model thinkpad, btw?
23:32:19 <ehird> ah. a wonderful lugbook :-P
23:33:00 <ehird> coppro: btw, apparently there's more keyboard flex on the newer thinkpads of some models
23:33:49 <ehird> personally I'm getting an old ThinkPad for the 4:3ness...
23:37:03 <coppro> one of the downsides to a new computer
23:37:13 <ehird> I love widescreen at 20" or bigger...
23:37:23 <ehird> but, ehh, I like laptops that fit on my lap
23:37:42 <ehird> a 14" 4:3 ThinkPad can fit on your lap, just like a 12" 16:10 ThinkPad
23:37:48 <ehird> except that the latter is useless as a main machine
23:38:20 <ehird> but by getting an old model, I compromise on speed, battery life, heat and brighter displays :(
23:39:58 <ehird> to mitigate the battery life I plan to use an UltraBay battery pack to replace the optical drive, but iirc the 14" Tsomething gets around 4.5-5 hours battery; I imagine I'll get up to 6 hours with the pack
23:40:12 <ehird> which isn't nearly as nice as the X200, which gets 9 hours on the 9-cell, but eh
23:40:44 <ehird> speed, I can manage as long as I have two cores; using an SSD should mitigate any silly clockspeed or architecture differences compared to my current machine
23:41:12 <ehird> heat shouldn't be too much of a problem since thinkpads have always been cool
23:41:31 <ehird> as for a brighter display, nothing I can do. :-(
23:41:43 <ehird> which kills any chance of using it outside, I guess
23:42:05 <ehird> coppro: yeah. on the other hand I'll probably save by getting an older model
23:42:18 <ehird> coppro: downgrade the CPU to the minimum and add an SSD :-P
23:42:40 <ehird> max laptop drive nowadays, about 320gb
23:42:47 <ehird> lenovo offers 128 and 256gb ssds
23:43:33 <ehird> admittedly even with the base CPU it might be too expensive, but it'll be way, way faster in general use than upping the CPU to the top option
23:43:55 <ehird> obviously not when doing CPU-intensive stuff, but that's so fast nowadays as tobe irrelevant
23:47:06 <ehird> lenovo rival apple in markup cost, which is irritating but understandable
23:48:06 <ehird> i wonder if it would be possible to rip out the backlight and replace it with a LED one :D
23:48:26 <coppro> well, they do allow unserviced upgrades
23:48:44 <ehird> yes, but I'm not even sure if you can *do* that to a display
23:49:04 <ehird> and I'd have no hope of finding a 14" display of the right dimensions, with a LED backlit, and the right connectors
23:49:16 <ehird> oh, and a high resolution like you can get on the ThinkPad stock ones
23:49:28 <ehird> simply because there was no ThinkPad produced with such a display
23:50:03 <coppro> ThinkPad is one of very few computers with the most important thing nowawadays :(
23:50:15 <ehird> keyboard, you mean?
23:50:40 <coppro> those matter, but the absolute most important thing is the nipple mouse
23:51:04 <ehird> eh, I'd be happy with Apple's wonderful large multitouch trackpad too, but failing that, yep
23:51:21 <ehird> from the looks of it, ThinkPads' trackpad is woefully bad
23:51:32 <coppro> haven't tried the multitouch touchpad though
23:51:52 <ehird> all I'll use it for is scrolling, since it looks bad. :P
23:51:56 <ehird> anyway the only *unsolved* problem I have is the display brightness, I think
23:52:10 <coppro> I use pageup/down for scrolling... call me old-fashioned
23:52:31 <ehird> that's a great way to give yourself a headache and slow yo udown while you try and find where you left off
23:54:13 <ehird> coppro: why the T500 over the T400, btw/
23:54:50 <ehird> coppro: then you want the W700ds, duh
23:55:01 <ehird> gotta love that extraneous second screen
23:55:21 <ehird> coppro: and RAID. and quad-core.
23:55:29 <ehird> and a 3 minute battery life!!!
23:56:45 <ehird> i know what I'll do!
23:56:59 <ehird> get a non-booting 14" 4:3, rip out the insides
23:57:03 <ehird> pop the insides of an X200 in
23:57:26 <ehird> also, saw the T400s display's sides off
23:57:38 <ehird> the T500's, actually, to get the height
23:57:51 <ehird> why didn't I think of that before.
23:59:42 -!- adam_d_ has quit ("Leaving").