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00:40:08 <ehird> okay, ChatZilla appears to be vaguely passable on windows
00:40:14 <ehird> which is... unexpected, I guess
00:40:20 <ehird> considering how much it sucks on OS X
00:41:05 * coppro has not tried it on OS X and so cannot comment
00:42:15 <coppro> I will take your word for it and subsequently ignore it and some later and more relevant time
00:42:49 <ehird> coppro: that's a very confusing sentence
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00:57:26 <ehird> http://explainxkcd.com/
01:01:08 <ehird> "This was wrong. David Gest has never had a sexually transmitted infection and did not have Ms Minnelli's dog killed." --The Daily Mail
01:01:20 <ehird> in a retraction letter
01:04:22 <ehird> an easy mistake to make
01:04:48 <coppro> they keys are like right next to each other
01:05:09 <coppro> (you know you're awesome when you are referencing bash :/)
01:20:40 <MizardX> http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=1289971.1289983 <-- "Context-Aware Scanning for Parsing Extensible Languages"
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01:51:33 <Amiral_> i was coming from http://frox25.no-ip.org/~mtve/wiki/
01:52:35 <Amiral_> hehe, i m searching the guy ;)
01:52:48 <Amiral_> need some help from his script
01:53:27 <ehird> [01:53]===mtve: away with message “Disconnected now, messages are logged”
01:53:36 <ehird> What script, anyway?
01:53:58 <ehird> I wonder what the heck it does.
01:53:58 <Amiral_> do you know ss7 sctp protocol ?
01:55:57 <Amiral_> ok, when do you think he can come ?
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04:38:20 * ehird wonders if he could hack capability-based security into linux with users...
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06:05:06 <Gracenotes> damn it, I accidentally did "rm blah.avi.00* > blah.avi", instead of cat. now I have to download it again >:[
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10:03:06 <fizzie> Which concepts are related to self-organizing maps? Yahoo knows: http://correlator.sandbox.yahoo.net/index.php/concepts/self-organizing+map
10:03:36 <fizzie> Mostly it makes sense, but I find the fact that ""The Dark Horse Book of Witchcraft" is probably related to self-organizing map" a bit dubious.
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12:53:49 <fizzie> I just wanted to be contrasty.
12:55:14 <ais523> hmm... today presented a data point in favour of the theory that knowing Java is nearly always sufficient to get a job
12:57:30 <fizzie> My personal experience has shown that knowing Perl is the most useful thing; two out of three of my employers have been mostly in search of someone who speaks Perl.
12:57:59 <ais523> in this case, though, I've been employed to teach Java to first-year undergraduate students
12:58:14 * ais523 wonders whether Java or Perl as a first language would be meaner
12:58:30 <ais523> one of my friends had Perl and Python as her first two languages, and both seemed to go quite well
12:58:41 <fizzie> With Java you also can't be blamed when they turn out to be school-shooters, because "everyone else's doing it too".
12:59:31 <fizzie> A person with a gigantic gun, which shoots schools out of it.
12:59:59 <ais523> that would be helpful over here, most of the UK faces massive competition for the good schools
13:00:14 <ais523> and there's a perpetual row about what the fairest way to allocate schooling to peopel is
13:00:32 <ais523> and what doesn't help is that the government are trying to get around the problem by attempting to pass laws to make all schools identical
13:00:33 <fizzie> One way is to disqualify people who write "peopel".
13:00:41 <fizzie> I'm not sure if the shot-out schools are very good, though.
13:00:47 <ais523> which is a) impossible, and b) a bad idea even if it were possible
13:03:13 <fizzie> Incidentally, unless bureaucracy intervenes, my Master's thesis will be accepted/graded next Monday; apparently it will also be the official graduation day, even though there's some formal diploma-distribution event a month later.
13:06:09 <ais523> mine was accepted and graded a few months ago
13:06:34 <fizzie> "Methods for Spectral Envelope Estimation in Noise Robust Speech Recognition"
13:06:59 <ais523> my experience in my department is that such master's projects always go wrong
13:07:03 <ais523> if it worked for you, then well done
13:07:49 <fizzie> It did take quite a while longer than it should, the work part was more interesting than the writing-about-work part.
13:08:07 <ais523> I actually rather enjoyed the writeup on mine
13:08:25 <ais523> it helped that I didn't leave it until after the project was finished
13:10:03 <fizzie> Finally I just wrote it in a month or so, because this "Helsinki Graduate School in Computer Science and Engineering" application deadline is next Friday, and they only accept graduated applicants. (The Academy of Finland -funded project my salary's been paid up to now is going to end this year, and the department would prefer it if I got some independent funding, which is what Hecse would provide.)
13:10:42 <ais523> are you almost guaranteed to pass?
13:10:44 <ais523> and with a good grade?
13:11:29 <ais523> for me, it was nervewracking wondering whether I would get top marks or fail altogether; a quirk in the marking scheme meant that those were the only two plausible results
13:13:16 <fizzie> Well, the supervisor's and professor's statement about it suggested a 5 (out of 5); the approving Council or Conclave or what-ever probably theoretically speaking can decide anything the like, but I think failing is really ludicrously unlikely. As far as I know they could still downgrade it to 4, though.
13:14:14 <fizzie> The results are sent via email the same evening, at least I won't have to wait long.
13:15:16 <fizzie> There's some sort of quasi-official guideline that they shouldn't be allowed to give the maximum grade without consulting a second professor, but it was a bit unclear whether that's actually observed.
13:16:30 <ais523> in the UK, the top few grades, the bottom few grades, and all fails, together with a random sample of the others, have to be reviewed by a second University
13:16:48 <fizzie> (I hope it doesn't mean they go all "okay, well, we gave it to this another professor and now you'll have to wait a month more before graduating", because in that case I'll have to do some sort of difficult handwaving in this graduate school application.)
13:16:49 <ais523> sometimes they interview the students, too
13:17:40 <fizzie> That sounds very serious.
13:17:55 <ais523> not always, because the grade has to be fixed before the interview
13:18:11 <ais523> so there's no way to mess up your grade by screwing up the interview
13:18:31 <ais523> but if the interview doesn't match up with what the 'external examiners' think the grade should be, the university who set the exam/coursework gets into trouble
13:19:15 <fizzie> Aw; I was hoping they'd make the students spin a sort of wheel-of-fortune style pass/fail wheel.
13:19:46 <fizzie> Then they could broadcast it on live national TV.
13:20:26 <fizzie> "graduation" is pretty close (lexically) to "gameshow" anyway.
13:21:08 <ais523> in English or Finnish?
13:21:38 <fizzie> English. Er, okay, so it's just the same initial letter. It's still closer than, say, a whale.
13:24:47 <fizzie> Actually it's as close in Finnish; "valmistuminen" versus "visailuohjelma". (I had to peek at the dictionary to see what a game show officially is.)
13:25:12 <ais523> are there unofficial Finnish names for game shows too, then/
13:26:56 <fizzie> I'm just not sure "visailuohjelma" has exactly the same connotations as "game show". I guess it is pretty close.
13:27:10 <ais523> such concepts normally don't translate too accurately
13:27:36 <ais523> actually, that's probably a good way to see how repetitively derivative something is
13:27:54 <ais523> for instance, I suspect "reality TV" translates more or less perfectly into many different languages
13:28:06 <ais523> because it didn't really evolve, it just more or less got copied everywhere
13:28:14 <ais523> and now, thankfully, people are getting bored of it again
13:29:11 <fizzie> Yes, there is an equivalent Finnish word.
13:30:46 <fizzie> fi-Wikipedia says "visailu" was a portmanteau of "visainen kilpailu", literally something like "a difficult contest" except that the word for 'difficult' is a sort of old-fashioned one. (fi:ohjelma is just "program" or "show".)
13:31:11 <fizzie> It's not exactly very "difficult contest" any more, at least in many cases.
13:31:19 <ais523> well, it's not exactly "reality" TV either
13:31:35 <ais523> given the efforts the producers go to artificially contrive what happens
13:32:49 <fizzie> I think they've started a new Big Brother round here recently; that's what I most associate with "reality" TV.
13:32:58 <ais523> they've just finished the penultimate round over here
13:33:09 <ais523> as in, channel 4 have said one more year, then they give up
13:33:21 <ais523> it's quite possible that one of the smaller TV networks will buy the rights off them, though
13:34:11 <fizzie> Apparently this is our fifth round.
13:34:52 <ais523> the rules seem to be slightly different from place to place
13:35:14 <ais523> come to think of it, I'm almost 100% convinced Wikipedia has a page somewhere summarising the differences, even though I don't know this from personal experience
13:36:32 <fizzie> They certainly have a lot of material about the show.
13:36:33 <ais523> wow: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Brother_(disambiguation)
13:36:47 <fizzie> All kinds of very colorful tables.
13:36:47 <ais523> to be precise, the bottom of that page
13:37:24 <ais523> including "Big Brother Second Life"
13:37:36 <ais523> some are redirects, though, and a couple are stubs
13:37:39 <fizzie> There's also separate page for each of the five seasons for the Finnish version; I assume they extend the same courtesy to all other countries too.
13:37:55 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Brother_2008_(Finland) is very... tabular.
13:39:19 <fizzie> And the "Variations in the format" section of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Brother_(TV_series) there's something like a summary of differences.
13:40:27 <ais523> yep, I'm reading that now
13:40:44 <ais523> and, as is my habit, trying to work out if Big Brother is Turing-complete
13:40:44 <fizzie> "In Germany a new version of the show started: Big Brother - Das Dorf (Big Brother - The Village). -- This was the first version supposed to run for years (without a predetermined end). It was set in a small artificial village including a church tower, a marketplace, 3 houses, 3 working areas -- The season ended after 363 days in February 2006 because of low ratings."
13:41:26 <ais523> fizzie: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castaway_2000
13:41:45 <ais523> which actually predated Big Brother, and for which it's arguable whether it was reality TV or not
13:41:56 <ais523> for one thing, it was actually quite good, which means that it probably wasn't
13:44:21 <ais523> hmm... Wikipedia calls it reality TV; most people at the time called it a documentary, but that's possibly because reality TV hadn't been invented at the time
13:45:32 <fizzie> For some reason I was continuously expecting some sort of gruesome massacre when reading that description page, but apparently it never happened.
13:45:36 <fizzie> Or maybe it's just been hushed.
13:50:18 <ais523> there was no news of that presented to the outside world
13:50:29 <ais523> but then, all the information we got is what the contestants themselves broadcast
13:50:36 <ais523> which is very different from the way most reality TV works
13:54:00 <fizzie> "In the seventh UK series, Big Brother became "twisted". Every week, housemates' mental states were put to the test as Big Brother tried to break them. As a result of this, many housemates broke down." That sounds unintentionally hilarious. (Possibly only to me.)
13:54:23 <fizzie> It's like the housemates are some sort of machines, which break down every once in a while and are then "serviced".
14:08:11 <Leonidas> probably they were indeed "serviced".. in a mental clinic^W garage.
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14:18:06 <fizzie> Heh. "Teen Big Brother -- was originally shot in advance -- to air in 2003 as an educational item, screened as part of Channel 4's 4Learning programming. -- On Day Six/Seven, Jade Dyer and Tommy Wright became the first Big Brother UK contestants to have sex on the show in its history. According to The Independent, this was the first real-life sexual act shown on British television --"
14:18:12 <fizzie> Yes, that must've been very educational indeed.
14:20:47 <ais523> they actually showed it in schools
14:20:56 <ais523> I know because I was in school at the time
14:21:11 <ais523> but they were obviously trying to contrive the situation to increase as much as possible the chance that there would be sex involved
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15:15:38 <oerjan> <ais523> and what doesn't help is that the government are trying to get around the problem by attempting to pass laws to make all schools identical
15:15:45 <oerjan> ah, the norwegian system
15:15:51 <ais523> does it fail just as badly there?
15:15:56 <oerjan> (only slightly exaggerated)
15:17:35 <oerjan> well the norwegian school system is in constant need of improvement. many people think the main problem is that it has _too_ frequent reforms, so it never gets to settle into something that actually works...
15:19:03 * oerjan doesn't really know how badly it fails, only that everyone complains about it
15:20:00 <oerjan> however, private/alternative schools are relatively rare, although that too may start to change either way after the election
15:21:30 <oerjan> the left wing seems to want to reduce alternatives but under the pretext of making the state schools better instead, while the right wing wants to allow more private and alternative schools
15:22:30 <oerjan> oh right, the teachers complain about too much bureaucracy ... every reform comes with lots of new forms to fill out :D
15:23:13 <oerjan> and that it's so bad they barely have time to teach
15:25:52 <oerjan> at least we don't have metal detectors ;D
15:28:40 <GregorR> We've consolidated that by moving all the schools into airports.
15:29:02 <ais523> and the scary thing is I don't even know whether you're joking
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15:30:14 <GregorR> There were a select few particularly troublesome schools that had metal detectors in the US after the Columbine incident, and because news from the US tends to become distorted towards the absurd as it leaves our borders (oh who am I kidding, it's distorted towards the absurd in our borders), oerjan probably believes we all have metal detectors in our schools :P
15:32:00 <ais523> they use handheld metal detectors at some schools in the UK, apparently
15:32:05 <ais523> looking for knives rather than guns
15:33:31 <GregorR> Oh, they weren't looking for guns here.
15:33:37 <GregorR> They were looking for golden idols to other gods.
15:33:40 <GregorR> For our God is a jealous God.
15:35:13 <AnMaster> <oerjan> well the norwegian school system is in constant need of improvement. many people think the main problem is that it has _too_ frequent reforms, so it never gets to settle into something that actually works... <-- sounds like in Sweden
15:36:01 <ais523> AnMaster: is the Swedish government trying to make all schools identical too?
15:36:17 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm not sure. Yeah it is that bad here...
15:36:18 <oerjan> induction suggests "sounds like almost everywhere", then
15:36:35 <ais523> GregorR: what about the US?
15:36:56 <AnMaster> ais523, I think different political parties in the current government as well as the opposition all pull in different directions
15:37:13 <ais523> that might be different, or might not, depending on how Republican and/or Democratic the school system is
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15:39:23 <AnMaster> ais523, well the current school system is quite left wing ("social democratic" party was the head of the last government) but the current conservative government (to people from US: This means slightly left of your Democrats ;P) wants to change it iirc
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15:40:00 <ais523> schooling's one of the most powerful ways to consolidate your power for future generations
15:40:10 <AnMaster> but if the social democratic party wins again I'm sure they will change it again
15:40:12 <ais523> if you can educate everyone to vote for you, then you can effectively regain your power several years later
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16:01:02 <oerjan> AnMaster: hm, it may seem that those who guessed the mythbusters had got to "good haken"'s dimension were right
16:05:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, I don't usually read the forum
16:05:34 <oerjan> well but do you remember good haken?
16:06:27 <AnMaster> "vaguely" might be a better word
16:07:00 <oerjan> "vaguely" is an excellent word. everyone should use it more often.
16:09:26 <oerjan> you might vaguely recall someone here who occasionally uses that word, though
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18:27:07 <AnMaster> I think python just behaved very strange:
18:27:20 <ais523> it's a plausible way to do modulo
18:27:25 <ais523> in fact, the most consistent one
18:27:30 <AnMaster> ais523, it is quite different from every other language I seen iirc
18:27:52 <ais523> there are three ways to do modulo with negative numbers IIRC, and they're relatively equally common
18:28:17 <AnMaster> ais523, what if I instead wanted the reminder?
18:28:38 <ais523> -3 / 60 = -1, with remainder 37
18:28:58 <AnMaster> ais523, what then is it when it returns -3?
18:29:27 <ais523> well, that's doing the modulo with negative numbers rather than positive
18:29:41 <AnMaster> and iirc that is what C99 does
18:30:43 <oerjan> !haskell ((-3) `mod` 60, (-3) `rem` 60)
18:31:35 <AnMaster> oerjan, that seems exactly opposite of what ais523 said?
18:31:49 <AnMaster> unless that one is printed in reverse order or something
18:32:09 <AnMaster> I would assume rem = reminder?
18:32:18 <AnMaster> <ais523> that is the remainder
18:32:18 <AnMaster> <ais523> -3 / 60 = -1, with remainder 57
18:32:20 <ais523> AnMaster: it depends on whether you think 0 or -1 is the correct answer for -3 / 60
18:32:47 <oerjan> !haskell ((-3) `divMod` 60, (-3) `quotRem` 60)
18:33:17 <AnMaster> ais523, hm... what is the usual way of rounding...
18:33:44 <ais523> towards even numbers, obviously!
18:34:22 <AnMaster> well that makes zero sense here
18:35:04 <AnMaster> usually integer division for positive integers round towards 0 (or towards -inf if you prefer that), but those work out the same for positive integers
18:35:06 <oerjan> for haskell, div rounds down, quot towards zero iirc
18:35:57 <AnMaster> I mean... no one would round *up* for positive integers
18:36:34 <oerjan> !haskell map (uncurry div) [(-1,-3), (-1,3), (1,-3), (1,3)]
18:37:03 <oerjan> !haskell map (uncurry quot) [(-1,-3), (-1,3), (1,-3), (1,3)]
18:43:09 <fizzie> Scheme (R5RS) has "remainder" and "modulo" separately; for arguments (13, 4), (-13, 4), (13, -4) and (-13, -4) modulo returns 1, 3, -3, -1 and remainder returns 1, -1, 1, -1.
18:44:08 <fizzie> It's made that way so that for any nonzero n1, n2, you have (= n1 (+ (* n2 (quotient n1 n2)) (remainder n1 n2))); quotient rounds towards zero there.
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19:07:43 <AnMaster> question: Silly programming assignment asking about implementing a prime checking function in python, it also specifies that the prime checking function has to make use of the function you wrote just before (which was a function testing if a function is evenly dividable by another)... any idea about a non-naive prime checking function that use it?
19:07:56 <AnMaster> because I find implementing the naive one so... pointless
19:08:04 <ais523> dividing a function by a number is rather tricky
19:08:21 <ais523> hmm... and dividing a function by another is still harder
19:09:25 <oerjan> if they're polynomials it works nicely
19:10:37 <oerjan> in one variable, at least. otherwise i think you need to use that gröbner base stuff which i've never really learned
19:12:19 <AnMaster> why doesn't wikipedia has any sort of "list of algorithms for prime test"
19:12:52 <ais523> AnMaster: the decisions on what are kept and what are deleted went past the sanity threshhold years ago
19:13:15 <AnMaster> ais523, you mean there *was* such a list at some point?
19:14:10 <ais523> the side-effect of deletion discussions being unpredictable is that people don't try to start the article in the first palce
19:14:17 <oerjan> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primality_test isn't good enought?
19:15:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, well... any answer to my original question (+plus typo correction)
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19:21:04 <ais523> AnMaster: how large are the numbers you'll be tested with?
19:21:27 <ais523> my suggestion for a silly algorithm is to test whether n divides into (n-1) factorial
19:21:46 <ais523> that works, but it's kind of inefficient above single digits
19:22:11 <AnMaster> ais523, wait, why does that work?
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19:22:22 <ais523> you also have to check to see if the number's a perfect square
19:22:36 <ais523> basically, suppose the number has two different factors both greater than 1
19:22:40 <ais523> which all non-square composite numbers do
19:22:46 <ais523> then they'll both be involved in the factorial
19:22:49 <ais523> so the division will work
19:22:55 <ais523> and for the square of a prime, it won't
19:23:17 <oerjan> actually it should work for a square except maybe 4 i think
19:23:26 <oerjan> because you have both n and 2n in there
19:24:07 <xfire35> Hi! I have a question about Turing-complete languages: How do I prove that I have made one?
19:24:08 <AnMaster> ais523, the example of the function used uses 347 as one example for a prime
19:24:10 <ais523> oerjan: oh, good point
19:24:15 <Deewiant> No need to think, 4 doesn't divide 6 :-)
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19:24:20 <AnMaster> which is for this purpose rather large
19:24:24 <ais523> xfire35: normally by writing a compiler from some simple TC language into yours
19:24:30 <ais523> or an interpreter for a simple TC language in yours
19:24:35 <EgoBot> 83786109731741519093102185774271060272617123899294938462545650103958267551816999632384597105781115095746538999305576622259820276406705054815151795675299977497130708316332112015853587961035548260985018324781142346741012571342381443403244375423925845246705116571375322097424190407461087058820073115195230214239315368221366956527807550877343514240476697131078048765701822673835389603217404839039032161799288445236044563772647739851207128764035103255967542618
19:24:43 <ais523> Brainfuck's normally used as the comparison language for that purpose
19:25:05 <AnMaster> I was planning to go naive or more efficient :/
19:25:07 <ais523> e.g. if you write a compiler from brainfuck into your language, then your language is TC
19:25:11 <xfire35> Why does that prove it is Turing-complete though?
19:25:29 <ais523> xfire35: because brainfuck is tc, and your language can do anything that brainfuck can do (due to the compilation)
19:25:33 <AnMaster> (like, check only numbers up to sqrt(n) and check only odd ones)
19:25:34 <ais523> so it must also be at least tc
19:25:58 <oerjan> xfire35: turing-complete is defined as being able to compile any turing machine to your language
19:26:00 <Deewiant> It proves your language can simulate something with power equivalent to that of a universal Turing machine
19:26:21 <ais523> and although you can do the calculation with an actual turing machine, using another language that's already been proven TC works well
19:26:39 <oerjan> however, if you have something else that a turing machine can be compiled into (i.e. something also tc) then you can go via that
19:26:50 <ais523> brainfuck, P'', SK combinatory calculus are all good source languages
19:27:10 <Ilari> Isn't proving that there is transform algorithm from some language and that if the original halts, the result will too enough?
19:27:32 <xfire35> That would be... interesting
19:27:43 <Ilari> xfire35: Is there description somewhere?
19:28:09 <AnMaster> xfire35, what about using BCT? (or has it been mentioned already?)
19:28:12 <ais523> Ilari: you have to prove the other way round too, that if the original doesn't halt, the result won't
19:28:22 <AnMaster> iirc BCT seemed popular for proving TCness recently
19:28:49 <AnMaster> ais523, I was wondering why _you_ of everyone skipped BCT in that list
19:29:00 <ais523> BCT's good if the language you're trying to prove TC doesn't have much in common with other langs
19:29:22 <ais523> e.g. if it doesn't have any sense of numbers, or data and code have a distance restriction between them
19:29:26 <AnMaster> ais523, how was BCT proven TC btw?
19:29:34 <AnMaster> The proof must have been.... interesting
19:29:36 <ais523> AnMaster: via tag systems
19:29:38 <xfire35> Is there another way to prove TC, I have already nearly written one interpreter
19:29:43 <ais523> proving BCT simulates a tag system is pretty simple
19:29:45 <AnMaster> ais523, and how was tag systems proven TC?
19:30:02 <oerjan> xfire35: interpreter for what?
19:30:15 <ais523> xfire35: all TCness proofs can be expressed in terms of being an interpreter for something
19:30:16 <xfire35> The language I am writing. I also did another one a while back
19:30:37 <ais523> just writing an interp for your language isn't enough to prove anything but an upper bound for its class, and you're looking for a lower bound
19:31:04 <AnMaster> xfire35, oh we didn't mean that, of course such an interpreter is very useful too. We meant writing an interpreter _in_ your language, _for_ a known TC language
19:31:09 <ais523> writing a program in your language, or a compiler to your language, are the only ways to prove TCness
19:31:22 <AnMaster> ais523, actually, writing an interpreter is enough to prove it "TC or less"
19:31:27 <xfire35> Yeah, I gathered that. It would just be annoying to do so.
19:31:41 <ais523> you can use it to put an upper bound on its class
19:31:42 <AnMaster> ais523, unless you write it in a super-TC languag
19:32:00 <oerjan> xfire35: BCT is super simple though
19:32:04 <ais523> likewise, if you write an interp for something in BackFlip, for instance, you know it's termination-testable
19:32:40 <AnMaster> ais523, how was backflip proven termination-testable?
19:32:51 <ais523> by proving it always terminates
19:33:17 <AnMaster> ais523, also writing a bf interpreter in a language isn't enough to prove said language _exactly_ TC. It would be "TC or more"
19:33:32 <AnMaster> you could write a bf interpreter in banana scheme easily enough
19:33:33 <ais523> AnMaster: that's what "proving something TC" means to me
19:33:41 <Deewiant> "TC or more" and "TC" are the same thing
19:33:46 <ais523> IMO, banana scheme /is/ TC; it can just do more as well
19:34:06 <oerjan> ais523: that would probably be turing-_hard_, by analogy with NP
19:34:26 <AnMaster> ais523, well... what would you call proving "no less, and no more than TC"
19:34:42 <ais523> np hard means that if it's P, then so are all NP-complete problems, but not vice versa?
19:35:03 <Deewiant> AnMaster: TC == can compute every Turing-computable function
19:35:16 <oerjan> np hard means anything in np can be reduced to it, but it's not necessarily in np
19:35:23 <ais523> AnMaster: "TC and computable"
19:35:25 <oerjan> np-complete means it is also in np
19:35:39 <AnMaster> ais523, wait... NP-complete being a subset of P? That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense
19:36:02 <ais523> AnMaster: if P=NP, then NP-complete is a subset of P
19:36:13 <ais523> if P != NP, then they're disjoint
19:36:18 <oerjan> AnMaster: ais523 is confusing the definition of np-hard/complete with the p vs. np question itself
19:36:25 <ais523> that's sort-of the essence of np-completeness
19:36:29 <AnMaster> ais523, wouldn't that mean that basically every crypto except OTP would be seriously fucked?
19:36:36 <ais523> oerjan: well, yes; although, I think my statements are probably true anyway
19:36:49 <AnMaster> well possibly quantum cryptos too, but don't know enough about them to be sure
19:36:56 <oerjan> well true but imprecise
19:37:10 <Ilari> Don't confuse symmetric and asymmetric crypto.
19:37:27 <oerjan> also, if P != NP, there are things strictly between P and NP-complete
19:37:29 <AnMaster> Ilari, hm, only asymmetric ones would be fucked?
19:37:34 <AnMaster> Ilari, that would be bad enough though
19:38:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, what would that class be?
19:38:29 <ais523> quantum cryptography doesn't care about P=NP; it's based on physical principles, not mathematical ones
19:38:52 <fizzie> There's also a few asymmetric cryptosystems not based on the factorization problem; none of them very widespread or (maybe) quite as well-analyzed as you might want.
19:38:55 <Ilari> At least if quantum computers with large bitness became practical, they would totally fuck most asymmetric algorithms. But would be probably quite hopeless against symmetric stuff like AES-256...
19:39:26 <ais523> oerjan: QBP is probably going to end up between P and NP, isn't it?
19:39:28 <fizzie> Oh, the discussion had went away from the factorization already. Heh. You are so fast.
19:39:34 <ais523> unless, ofc, P = NP, but that seems rather unlikely
19:40:00 <ais523> Ilari: well, grover's algorithm gives you an O(n^2) improvement for any algorithm at all
19:40:04 <oerjan> ais523: probably, but it's not proved even assuming P != NP afaik
19:40:13 <ais523> but it's suspected that for general algorithms, you don't get an improvement better than that
19:40:23 <Ilari> ais523: Yeah. AES-256 is still 2^128 work even with it.
19:40:37 <ais523> oerjan: yep, neither P != QBP nor QBP != NP is known
19:40:57 <oerjan> however there is a proof that if P != NP then you can construct something in an intermediate class. iirc it uses something diagonalization-like
19:42:05 <Ilari> Of course, there may be some weakness in AES that can't be exploited with classical computer but could with quantum computer. But one can say that generic attacks won't cut it.
19:42:57 <oerjan> fizzie: i don't recall we actually went by factorization at all this time ;)
19:43:06 <AnMaster> Ilari, yay my encrypted partition is safe!
19:43:24 <fizzie> Wasn't that what AnMaster's programming assignment all the way up there was about?
19:43:27 <Ilari> I have also heard about some groups which have DDH probably outside BQP (but of course still in NP).
19:43:35 <fizzie> Primality testing, factorization; pretty close.
19:43:47 <oerjan> fizzie: no, just prime testing, also it was an unrelated conversation really
19:43:58 -!- ehird has joined.
19:44:15 <oerjan> ok ehird is here, everyone keep silent
19:44:25 <AnMaster> is a for loop in python always "for i in <something you can iterate over>"? Or is there "C-style" for loop too?
19:44:36 <ehird> for i in xrange(1,10)
19:44:37 <AnMaster> ehird, so while loop it is then
19:44:45 <ehird> AnMaster: what are you trying to do?
19:44:45 <AnMaster> or I would run out of memory quickly
19:44:53 <ehird> xrange is a generator
19:44:59 <Deewiant> That's why you use xrange instead of range
19:45:10 <ehird> xrange is a generator
19:45:28 <ehird> in python 3, range = xrange
19:45:31 <ehird> and there's no xrange
19:45:33 <ehird> range itself is a cruft
19:45:49 <Ilari> AnMaster: If you are using that (p - 1)! == -1 (mod p), use modular multiplication... Keeps numbers down.
19:46:02 <ehird> Deewiant: you can do sequence operations on it
19:46:10 <ehird> if you really need a list, list(xrange(...))
19:47:16 <AnMaster> Ilari, well I wasn't going for that one, I don't want bad marks (nor do I want to be held responsible for the teacher getting a heart attack!)
19:47:36 -!- ehird has quit (Client Quit).
19:47:49 -!- ehird has joined.
19:48:13 <ehird> windows sure is vaguely annoying when it breaks
19:48:18 <Ilari> AnMaster: 6th-degree version of AKS? :->
19:48:48 <ehird> Wolfram got six degrees just for writing that awful book and released a special edition for it?
19:49:05 <AnMaster> Ilari, did you see that bit about the assignment specifying that you had to make use of a function that is: f(a,b): return A % B == 0
19:49:21 <AnMaster> (newlines + indention omitted for brevity)
19:49:23 <ehird> AnMaster: your uni sucks btw
19:49:33 <ehird> also, "def" omitted too
19:49:37 <ehird> also it's indentation
19:49:43 <ais523> ehird: the problem is to write a Python program that tests a number for primality, using an "is-divisible-by" operation
19:49:53 <Deewiant> ehird: I actually looked it up and indention is also correct
19:49:57 <ais523> and AnMaster's looking for a non-obvious solution
19:50:04 <ehird> ais523: Contrary to popular belief I'm not retarded
19:50:17 <ehird> hey, selection broke
19:50:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it just happens to mean something else
19:50:20 -!- ehird has quit (Client Quit).
19:50:32 <Deewiant> AnMaster: No, they mean the same thing.
19:50:33 -!- ehird has joined.
19:50:57 <ehird> indention is typographical
19:50:59 <ehird> indentation is code
19:51:03 <ehird> but indention is never used anyway
19:51:18 <AnMaster> ehird, sure is, an indentation in a wall?
19:51:27 <AnMaster> I only ever seen indention in that context :P
19:51:59 <Deewiant> In that context, "indention" is evidently archaic
19:52:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, maybe I only read archaic books then
19:53:33 <ehird> 11:48:18 <Ilari> AnMaster: 6th-degree version of AKS? :->
19:53:35 <ehird> 11:48:48 <ehird> Wolfram got six degrees just for writing that awful book and released a special edition for it?
19:54:16 <AnMaster> ehird, I wasn't responding to that line as far as I know?
19:55:12 <AnMaster> ehird, also what has wolfram got to do with AKS?
19:58:25 -!- xfire35 has quit ("Leaving").
19:58:43 <ehird> I was replying to ais523 in the past.
20:00:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, iirc that is Andrew File System in the linux kernel
20:01:04 <oerjan> no, it is Acronym Failure Syndrome
20:01:41 -!- ehird has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.85-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.13/2009073109]").
20:01:48 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Andrew
20:02:25 <oerjan> it's a highly revolutionary file system
20:05:49 -!- ehird has joined.
20:26:52 -!- labo has quit ("leaving").
20:54:44 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
21:17:40 <ehird> Huh, apparently John Resig (of jQuery fame) founded #haskell.
21:28:06 <ehird> Was there ever a CRT laptop, I wonder?
21:29:40 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
21:33:28 <AnMaster> <ehird> Was there ever a CRT laptop, I wonder? <-- yes I think so. At least it sounds familiar
21:34:00 <ehird> I don't mean like a single-line text display.
21:34:32 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean more like 5nnx3nnn or so
21:35:36 <AnMaster> ehird, that would be "nm" not "nnn"
21:36:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, assuming a decent font of course
21:36:34 <AnMaster> any two one digit positive integers
21:36:51 <ehird> 5xx x 3xx would have got that intent across.
21:37:01 <AnMaster> ehird, the x there in the middle confused things
21:37:16 <ehird> Also I'm tragically using Arial due to being too lazy to find a properly hinted Windows Helvetica.
21:44:52 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:53:28 <ehird> http://core.trac.wordpress.org/changeset/11762
21:53:48 <ehird> The WordPress remote vulnerability bug? Simply omitting the permissions check on all the option pages in the administration interface.
21:53:56 <ehird> The keys are, like, right next to each other.
21:54:31 <ehird> So uh, anyone still using WordPress on a remote server? Relatedly, anyone currently on crack?
21:57:13 <fizzie> Gah, I frigging hate Nokia. Given how much in love they are with Symbian I was pretty sure I could just disqualify all their phones; and then they go and do that N900 thing.
21:57:39 <ehird> fizzie: Touchscreen keyboard, man.
21:58:01 <ehird> fizzie: Really really tiny keyboard, man?
21:58:17 <ehird> Also do all Finns have a weird thing for phones?
21:58:21 <fizzie> At least it's not a really tiny *touchscreen* keyboard.
21:58:37 <fizzie> Anyway, it's pretty close to a cross of their "internet tablet" things and a phone.
21:59:01 <fizzie> It's just that mooz said it's good; how can I really disagree? (He's been playing with a prototype at his mobile-development job.)
21:59:07 <ehird> At least it's not a really tiny touchscreen keyboard that lets you touch pixels by saying the x and then y position into a low-quality bluetooth headset which then compresses it with low-quality windows media audio and runs Vista's speech recognition algorithm on it after adding white noise to the background.
22:00:02 <ehird> fizzie: Also it looks thick.
22:00:39 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
22:00:43 <ehird> fizzie: Anyway, there aren't many apps for maemo atm are there?
22:01:05 <Rugxulo> alright, it's probably cheesy, but here's my latest Befunge abomination / creation: http://board.flatassembler.net/topic.php?p=101447#101447
22:01:22 <Rugxulo> (not very impressive, I admit, but it took a while, so meh)
22:01:26 <fizzie> Not sure; it's just that it feels far more open-wide than, say, Android.
22:01:29 <ehird> My IRC client broke that link at "flatass".
22:01:39 <ehird> So I was trying to figure out what a Flat Ass Embler was for a second.
22:01:55 <Rugxulo> FASM, basically a competitor to NASM
22:02:03 <Rugxulo> although written in itself instead of C
22:02:27 <ehird> fizzie: I hear the Pre's implementation of multitasking is quite good, at least. I dunno, the N900 just doesn't feel very interesting to me.
22:02:31 <ehird> Rugxulo: I know what FASM is.
22:02:36 <ehird> Real men use yasm!
22:02:45 <fizzie> I guess it is pretty thick and otherwise big too, yes; 111 x 60 x 18 mm. On the other hand, I've been carrying the 130 x 70 x 20 mm N-gage around for years now, and it doesn't feel that big any more.
22:03:04 <ehird> Though really real men use an assembler written in Scheme.
22:03:12 <ehird> fizzie: Isn't the N-Gage super-heavy?
22:03:23 <ehird> Bash does not have awesome macros. :|
22:03:40 <Rugxulo> I meant omimplay / shasm is an assembler written in Bash ;-)
22:03:54 <fizzie> ehird: Yes, it's completely horrible. Especially since there's a whole heap of "whoops, we made your phone reboot" bugs in the firmware, which they never bothered to fix.
22:03:58 <ehird> Ah, but a Scheme assembler would expose the operations as Scheme macros.
22:04:02 <fizzie> ehird: Anyway, it came with a toy helicopter.
22:04:04 <ehird> Thus allowing Fun Fun Magic Trickery.
22:04:10 <Rugxulo> hopefully your N-Gage is one of the later models without the battery replacement annoyance and sidetalking
22:04:14 <ehird> fizzie: Oh. That's all right, then.
22:04:29 <fizzie> Rugxulo: I would have said "N-Gage QD" if it were. No, it is not.
22:04:59 <ehird> Anyway, if you want something FREE AS IN RICHARD STALLMAN, try an OpenMoko phone! You can even run Android on them. Downside: they suck. Also no 3G. I don't think they have EDGE either.
22:04:59 * Rugxulo couldn't remember the QD part, was thinking SD or something ...
22:05:26 * Rugxulo sings "Jive Talkin'" with "Side" replacing the "Jive" ;-)
22:05:46 <fizzie> Yes, that's a bit too open. I'm just having trouble resisting a phone that's basically running Debian.
22:05:57 <Rugxulo> at least the N-Gage had some good games, right??
22:05:57 <ehird> fizzie: OpenMoko is basically Debian, too :P
22:06:03 <ehird> Rugxulo: Not really, no :P
22:06:07 <fizzie> Yes, but there's the hardware problem.
22:06:20 <fizzie> Rugxulo: I wouldn't know, it came with a "Tony Hawk's" skater game, which I sold.
22:06:36 <ehird> Tony Hawk skateboarding games are uncannily addictive.
22:06:58 <fizzie> I doubt the N-gage version would've been very good.
22:07:22 <fizzie> Incidentally, my iBook also came with a Tony Hawk game, which didn't work.
22:07:26 <Rugxulo> N-Gage wasn't quite that bad, albeit imperfect, from what I read
22:07:28 <fizzie> That was pretty strange.
22:07:29 <ehird> fizzie: Oh, forget the N900
22:07:33 <ehird> fizzie: It uses a resistive touchscreen
22:08:10 <ehird> Either you really *really* love styluses, really *really* love having your touches dropped, or don't want a resistive touchscreen.
22:08:57 <fizzie> ehird: I'm not sure I'm so touchy-feely person, and in fact I do have a strange fascination for styluses (styli?). Still, it's a bit of a shame; they did put a capacitive screen into that N97 Symbian phone, I think.
22:09:23 <ehird> after using an iphone i could never use a resistive touchscreen
22:09:36 <ehird> fizzie: btw, I'm pretty sure Maemo is designed for touchiness
22:10:36 <fizzie> I think I'm still going to have to find one to improperly touch all around, to see what it's like.
22:10:43 <Rugxulo> I don't get the huge appeal of touch screens, I mean, it's nice but not that crucial, seems more gimmicky than anything
22:11:27 <ais523> touch screens are good for some things, bad for others
22:11:28 <ehird> the UI experience, so to speak, is way different with a touchscreen
22:11:40 <ais523> I wouldn't want to program for a long length of time on one
22:11:46 <ehird> I wouldn't use a phone that doesn't have a touchscreen
22:11:49 <ais523> web browsing, OTOH, might work quite well
22:11:50 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:11:58 <ehird> ais523: hello 2006
22:12:05 <Rugxulo> ehird, 99% of the phones in the universe never had touch screen capability
22:12:08 <fizzie> I did see someone today doing the iPhone multi-touch map zoom thing, which has always made me smile.
22:12:11 <ais523> ehird: I don't have a phone at all
22:12:20 <ehird> ais523: so you delight in pointing out all the time.
22:12:42 <ais523> different people here live in different years
22:12:46 <ehird> the iphone came out in 2007 w/ touchscreen web browsing
22:12:47 <ais523> ehird lives about 10 years ahead of everyone else
22:12:47 <Rugxulo> omg, itz from teh 2006 !#!
22:12:50 <ehird> so yes, hello 2006
22:13:00 <ehird> ais523: no, i live in 2009
22:13:13 <ehird> from the perspective of someone who lives in <<2009, that's probably true
22:13:21 <Rugxulo> which will be obsolete in four months :->
22:13:43 <ehird> that comment was excitingly context free.
22:16:08 <Rugxulo> so I assume you only use Befunge109 then? :-P
22:16:20 <ais523> befunge109 isn't really finished yet
22:16:26 <ais523> AnMaster: you'd better get a move on, before it becomes Befunge110
22:16:53 <FireFly> But then someone may misinterpret it as binary
22:17:09 <ehird> I wish I had a big red button that I could press to make the air simultaneously slap every single person currently using a strawman argument in the face
22:17:16 <ehird> I would put a heavy book on top of it.
22:17:45 <FireFly> Just place your computer on it and be happy
22:17:47 <ehird> Rugxulo: are you feeling pain? 'cuz I'm pressing it
22:17:49 <Rugxulo> get a Kindle 2, omg, plz, kthxbai
22:17:51 <ais523> Rugxulo: you can't weight things down with computer programs
22:17:57 <ehird> Press, press, press.
22:18:05 <Rugxulo> sure you can ... Fortran punch cards :-)
22:18:09 <ais523> and aren't Kindles capable of deleting the stuff you're reading remotely/
22:18:15 <ehird> That's one fucking heavy punch card.
22:18:22 <ehird> ais523: yes, the Kindle is ridiculously DRMed
22:18:26 <Rugxulo> yes, they did delete (and refund) over 1984, heh
22:18:32 <ehird> the basic idea is great, however
22:18:57 <ais523> ehird: I tend to avoid hardware if the software in it can't easily be replaced and isn't near-perfect
22:19:18 <ehird> ais523: I'm pretty sure you can reflash the Kindle.
22:19:19 <ais523> due to the risk of being obsoleted pretty quckly
22:19:25 <Rugxulo> near-perfect? uh, nothing is perfect (Win7 has SMB 2.0 flaw, BSOD lives!!)
22:19:31 <ehird> ais523: I mean, it gets software updates.
22:19:41 <ais523> Rugxulo: I'd have been pretty surprised if Win7 had been perfect
22:19:52 <Rugxulo> actually, I think somebody got a minimal Ubuntu to run on the Kindle
22:19:54 <ais523> ehird: hmm... is it hardware-locked to only allow signed updates?
22:19:55 <ehird> ais523: except anyone can crash a win 7 machine with an open port
22:20:01 <ehird> due to a bug in the TCP/IP stack
22:20:06 <ais523> ehird: ok, now that's impressive
22:20:12 <ehird> buy a Sony ebook reader or something, they can't do that shit
22:20:17 <ais523> and does that apply to the server version too?
22:20:33 <ais523> if it works on port 80, then Microsoft will be in a load of trouble
22:20:42 <ehird> I Read It On The Internet, So It Must Be True
22:20:52 <Rugxulo> they're too busy "training" Best Buy employees :-)
22:21:05 <ehird> It's such fun raiding the British Telecom offices in virtual reality?
22:21:12 <ais523> ehird: did you see that Reddit story about Apple pulling a C64 emulator app because you could write BASIC programs into it?
22:21:34 <ehird> it's a shit policy, the app store is managed shit
22:21:44 <ehird> and the devs were rejected for it before
22:21:47 <ehird> they just "hid" it very faintly
22:21:53 <ehird> so they shouldn't be surprised
22:22:49 <ehird> the policy is lame, removing it for violating the policy isn't
22:22:59 <ais523> from my point of view, a device that deliberately tries not to be TC (from a user-input point of view) is rather limited
22:23:20 <ehird> ais523: you're on crack.
22:23:27 <ehird> do you not use ATMs?
22:23:28 <ais523> come to think of it, what's to stop people just writing long javascript: URLs into Safari
22:23:35 <ais523> ehird: I do, but I consider them rather limited
22:23:39 <ais523> rather limited != unusable
22:23:48 <ais523> but it reduces the amount of money I'm willing to spend on something
22:23:48 <ehird> and yet other apps which offer unrestricted net access,
22:24:26 <ehird> age limit, rating thing
22:24:56 <ehird> also, the Kindle is incidentally TC
22:25:00 <ais523> I know someone asked the Enigma devs if they were planning to put it on the iPhone
22:25:02 <ehird> as it has a web browser which does javascript
22:25:07 <ehird> you can use it as an ssh client, for instance
22:25:14 <ais523> and they launched into a rant against Apple and the app store policies
22:25:24 <ais523> and how they thought it was illegal to put anything open-source in the app store
22:25:30 <ehird> that's very debatable.
22:25:35 <ais523> at least, under a GPL-style copyleft
22:25:35 <ehird> the FSF think so, but it's probably not.
22:25:38 <ais523> probably not BSD stuff
22:25:49 <ehird> i mean, with an uber-strict literal reading, yes, it's illegal
22:25:53 <ais523> the argument is, that you can't license apple to make binary copies that don't also send source
22:26:06 <ehird> obviously you can embed the source code inside the app :)
22:26:14 <ais523> Apple's terms ban that
22:26:21 <Rugxulo> would Apple ban a Befunge interpreter?
22:26:26 <ehird> Rugxulo: probably.
22:26:29 <FireFly> Wait, you aren't allowed to upload anything which could be used in a TC way to the App store?
22:26:41 <Rugxulo> really? hard to imagine Befunge (-93, at least) of causing any problems
22:26:50 <ehird> but programming, yes
22:26:55 <ehird> Rugxulo: nor C64 BASIC
22:27:00 <ais523> someone on reddit claimed that their lambda-calculus-based game was banned, although I'm not sure whether to believe them
22:27:15 <Rugxulo> so why the heck is Apple so popular then?
22:27:22 <Rugxulo> won't this come back to bite them eventually?
22:27:27 <ehird> Rugxulo: yes, it will
22:27:27 <ais523> Rugxulo: well, you'd think so
22:27:32 <ehird> the iPhone's UI is really, really great
22:27:40 <ehird> it's simply the smoothest phone for doing shit with
22:27:57 <ehird> and... most people value that above being able to type BASIC programs on a touchscreen keyboard.
22:27:59 <ais523> ehird: I agree, the UI is relatively impressive
22:28:24 <Rugxulo> call 911, we need iBefunge, stat! ;-)
22:28:25 <ais523> I tend to find myself getting bored of UIs after a few minutes, though
22:28:27 <FireFly> I take it there's no way to install a program locally
22:28:33 <FireFly> Or, well, you have to go via App store?
22:28:42 <ehird> You can do it if you have a developer SDK thingy.
22:28:49 <ehird> But that costs $$$.
22:28:53 <ehird> Well, the SDK is free
22:28:56 <ehird> Putting it on your phone isn't
22:29:00 <ehird> It's something like...
22:29:01 <FireFly> What about jailbreaking it?
22:29:03 <ehird> I forget the figure.
22:29:05 <ehird> Double-digit bucks
22:29:09 <ehird> FireFly: technically illegal.
22:29:14 <ehird> ais523: bored, maybe
22:29:20 <ehird> funnily enough, a UI is meant to be functional, not exciting
22:29:28 <ehird> if you notice it, it's bad
22:29:39 <FireFly> I'll stick to my current phone anyway.. I can call with it, so I'm happy
22:29:48 <ehird> phone is a misnomer
22:30:00 <ehird> the actual telephone-mast calling is basically irrelevant nowadays
22:30:05 <ais523> really, though, what would I do with an iPhone-like device?
22:30:11 <ehird> but "mobile thingy device" isn't a very good term
22:30:17 <ehird> Anyway, I'm one of those crazy people who bought a first-generation iPhone back in 2007 when they cost £72,564 and 81p. Back then they didn't even have apps, you were just meant to use web apps in Safari.
22:30:24 <ehird> But I jailbreaked it.
22:30:29 <ehird> Back then you could jailbreak it just by opening a web page in Safari.
22:30:45 <ais523> ehird: did you leave it jailbroken through upgrades/
22:30:47 <ehird> It'd hang there for about 15 seconds, show a blue progress bar, reboot and bam! You're jailbroken and have an app installer.
22:30:59 <ais523> so did you upgrade and rebreak it?
22:31:03 <ehird> when the App Store came out I didn't bother to rebreak it
22:31:04 <ais523> or just leave it as-is?
22:31:22 <Rugxulo> heh, laziness ... the bane of progress
22:31:34 <FireFly> I should really start programming for the DS some day
22:31:36 <ehird> Jailbreaking my mobile doesn't really advance the world.
22:32:02 <ehird> Anyway, it's a very good alarm clock and portable web browser. Not so much an IRC/IM client, but I haven't really practiced with that touchscreen keyboard much.
22:32:36 <ehird> I wouldn't buy it today, but only because of the app store hoohah.
22:33:10 <ais523> alarm clocks can be obtained more cheaply
22:33:16 <ais523> and I'm horrified at the thought of portable web browsing
22:33:24 <ehird> You might just be a luddite.
22:33:29 <ais523> being on call constantly is bad enough
22:33:33 <ais523> but being online constantly?
22:33:39 <ehird> Um, web browsing is self-initiated.
22:33:42 <ais523> I don't even have an internet connection at my own home
22:33:57 <ehird> You're probably a luddite.
22:34:05 <ais523> ehird: I can just imagine a future where employers insit that everyone has an iphone set to IRC at all the time, or something like that
22:34:05 <ehird> Anyway, the internet is an extension of my mind.
22:34:10 <ehird> Being able to call up Wikipedia at any time is invaluable.
22:34:27 <ehird> ais523: do you also oppose strong AI?
22:34:40 <ehird> after all, Terminator could come true and we'd be plunged into a horrible war with the machines, am I right?
22:34:48 <Rugxulo> Wikipedia is great ... esp. for John Siegenthaler :-))
22:35:18 <ais523> ehird: I think strong AI is unlikely within my lifetime
22:35:32 <ais523> from what I've seen of humankind, it's too fundamentally incompetent to want to develop anything like that
22:35:45 <ehird> ais523: that is not an answer to my question.
22:35:50 <Rugxulo> "I'm sorry, Dave, but I can't let you do that."
22:36:05 <ais523> ehird: I tend not to think too much about things of low probability
22:36:14 <ehird> That's nice. I asked a question of you.
22:36:18 <ais523> in fact, I rarely have opinions at all unless I actually think about a topic deeply
22:36:30 <ais523> and so my answer is, atm I have no opinion, and I don't really want to spend time formulating one
22:37:34 <ehird> what about a use-case I mentioned, looking up information as an extension of my own memory? I suppose that's bad because I'll become stupid and drooling and have to look up every word on Wikipedia to find out what it means, hurr.
22:37:42 <ehird> (re: opposing portable internet)
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22:39:26 <ais523> although, I find I can hardly think when onlilne
22:39:34 <ais523> I can scheme with people when online, e.g. for mafia or nomic
22:39:43 <ais523> but I hardly ever do productive work when I have an internet connection
22:40:11 <ehird> you may have a self-control problem
22:40:24 <ehird> (You may be a bear. You may have wings. There are *so* *many* things you may.)
22:40:29 <ais523> well, when I'm connected to the internet, it's for the purpose of using it
22:41:47 <ehird> I guess I'm likely the only person here young enough to have "grown up" with the internet.
22:42:01 <ehird> I can't even articulate what "using" the internet is. It's not a directed action I make.
22:42:19 <ais523> ehird: if you use the Internet as an extention of your own memory, then by analogy, I can remotely control your mind
22:42:31 <ehird> not if someone reverts you.
22:43:06 <ehird> if your memory doesn't correlate with other ones I'm unlikely to believe it.
22:43:17 <ehird> Anyway, that's the same ol' "lol but anyone can put 'ur a fag' on wikipedia" argument.
22:43:54 <ais523> ehird: I wasn't assuming you'd only be trusting Wikipedia
22:44:08 <ehird> Yes. My list of people who are fags is at least 11.47% longer than the average person's.
22:44:28 <ehird> ais523: basically, you're saying that you're going to get every site on the internet about a given topic to add your lie into them
22:44:39 <ehird> and have this lie correlate with everything else I know
22:44:45 <ehird> if you do that, I commend your initiative
22:44:45 <ais523> ehird: depends on how rare the topic is
22:44:55 <ais523> in particular, I'm thinking about the situation where mine's the only site with some datum you might want to know
22:45:24 <ehird> I might flunk a job interview because I got the wrong C-INTERCAL version number. Oh, the embarrassment.
22:45:44 <ehird> Anyway, if you're the only person who knows you could just lie to me IRL too.
22:45:52 <ehird> The internet doesn't really change that dynamic at all.
22:46:04 <ehird> (Except I'm less likely to trust people on the internet at face value.)
22:47:36 <ais523> what about when the Internet crashes?
22:47:50 <ais523> I'm worried that it'll cause the end of civilisation, nowadays, we're just too dependent on it
22:47:51 <Rugxulo> wow, befunge-mode.el is very slow (probably due to cursor movement over current instruction being executed)
22:47:59 <ais523> and I'm not convinced it's entirely impossible
22:48:10 <Rugxulo> compared to what? dependence on oil? that didn't kill us (yet)
22:48:15 <ehird> ais523: electricity is evil
22:48:20 <ehird> ever been in a power cut?
22:48:27 <ehird> we must immediately stop using electricity, lest it ever go out
22:49:02 <ais523> ehird: it's normally easier to restore, taking out the entire electricity network all over the world would be rather difficult
22:49:19 <ehird> same with the internet; it could be better, sure, and so we can make it better.
22:49:27 <ehird> But yes, sure, I fully expect that an internet coverage outage will be as severe as an electricity outage in the future.
22:50:03 <Rugxulo> only if this "cloud" crap takes off
22:50:57 <ais523> cloud coverage seems like a bad idea
22:51:26 <Rugxulo> and BTW, dunno how old you are (I forget, but I know everyone here is youngish), but the Internet predates us all ... DARPA/ARPANET, 1974 or such ...
22:51:29 <ehird> and while it's a loathsome buzzword, I don't see any problem in storing *some things* on third-party servers, hopefully encrypted and with backups, to access them anywhere
22:51:41 <ehird> Rugxulo: I know that. (I'm 14.)
22:51:50 <Rugxulo> well, we already do some (webmail, pics)
22:51:52 <ehird> But it only really took off in the mid 90s.
22:52:18 <ehird> Yes. I could have my mind corrupted by the negative influences of this channel.
22:52:32 <ais523> third-party servers is fine
22:52:41 <ais523> it's storing data everywhere that's the problem
22:52:45 <ais523> which is how I think the cloud worked
22:52:57 * Rugxulo was enjoying his 486 Sx/25 w/ 4 MB of RAM and 170 MB HD running MS-DOS 6.00 and Win 3.1 and King's Quest 6 when he was 14
22:53:00 <ehird> the cloud is just a buzzword for things like gmail, google docs, ...
22:53:10 <Rugxulo> oh, and 2400 bps for BBSes (soon upgraded, heh)
22:53:14 <ehird> a healthy tip to remember is that buzzwords never mean anything new
22:53:25 <Rugxulo> hard to imagine 2400bps was ever acceptable for anything
22:53:31 <Rugxulo> although same for 486s :-P
22:53:44 <ehird> Rugxulo: I started on Windows 3.1 when I was 3, despite 95 coming out when I was born.
22:54:01 <Rugxulo> now *that* probably corrupted (or scarred) you ;-)
22:54:17 <Rugxulo> "Mommy, why is Bill Gates such a horrible programmer?"
22:54:39 <ehird> Rugxulo: Oh, I already knew that, because I have a distinct memory of removing everything in C:\WINDOWS.
22:54:49 <ehird> I don't need this crap on my system! Oh, look, it crashed again.
22:55:21 <Rugxulo> I swear, it must've been low memory, if we'd had more RAM, we never would've accepted Win 3.x for anything, ever
22:55:46 <ehird> Rugxulo: Windows 3.x isn't old! Stupid people dropping compatibOHWAIT:P
22:56:07 <Rugxulo> I didn't say compatibility should be killed, but Win 3.x was definitely weak
22:56:52 <Rugxulo> DOS is more popular (esp. since Win3x used undocumented tricks, still doesn't really run on FreeDOS although not enough developers miss it, I guess)
22:57:11 <ehird> DOS was pretty bad
22:57:32 <Rugxulo> could've been better, could've been worse
22:57:40 <ehird> programs could shit on each other and it had no proper multitasking
22:57:43 <ehird> I'm gonna go with "bad architecture"
22:57:53 <Rugxulo> "shit on each other" only applies to real mode
22:58:02 <Rugxulo> DR-DOS had multitasking, Desqview also existed, etc. etc.
22:58:04 <ehird> also, I'm pretty sure 386BSD and the like could run on the things DOS could
22:58:14 <ehird> so it's not like a better architecture was impossible due to hardware constraints
22:58:15 <Rugxulo> (one advantage of Win 3.0: multitasking DOS)
22:58:19 <fizzie> Windows 3.0 went completely broken when I DBLSPACE'd my system disk.
22:58:28 <ehird> 3.0? Windows 386 could do that!
22:58:41 <ehird> fizzie: does that... double space text?
22:58:45 <fizzie> Admittedly there was a warning about it somewhere, I just had missed it.
22:58:45 <ais523> ehird: 386 was a win 3.1 feature
22:58:53 <fizzie> It's a on-the-fly disk compression thing.
22:58:55 <Rugxulo> ehird, DOS originally ran on an 8088, 386BSD didn't exist (and needed 386+, duh)
22:59:01 <ehird> the computer in the video is clearly running windows 2
22:59:01 <fizzie> DoubleSpace/DriveSpace.
22:59:08 <ehird> it had overlapping windows, but the old look
22:59:13 <Rugxulo> Win 2.1/386 existed (supposedly, never tried it)
22:59:34 <fizzie> And Windows 3.0 at least does have a "386 Enhanced" mode.
22:59:45 <ehird> Rugxulo: still, you could clearly fit a unix-alike on there
22:59:59 <ehird> BSD isn't exactly the leanest unix imaginable, and the 386 wasn't like five billion times more powerful
23:00:21 <ehird> you probably couldn't do everything the demoscene did with one, though
23:00:28 <ehird> with the overhead and protection
23:01:31 <fizzie> You can run ELKS on a 8088.
23:02:59 <ehird> it's amusing how the latest top of the line x86 supercomputing system of today still, when you turn it on, tells the keyboard to free up its port
23:03:03 <Rugxulo> anyways, Linux originally ran on a 386 w/ 2 MB
23:03:09 <pikhq> ehird: The main problem with DOS is that it made no sense on a machine more powerful than, say, an 8080.
23:03:15 <Rugxulo> nowadays you'd be lucky to run one with 32 MB
23:03:34 <ehird> have you read the linux 0.1 source?
23:03:35 <pikhq> Rugxulo: ... Fail.
23:03:36 <ehird> it barely does anything
23:03:47 <Rugxulo> pikhq, it made plenty sense, but Intel chips (286 pmode anyone?) weren't exactly DOS friendly
23:03:48 <ehird> but you're full of shit, Rugxulo :P
23:03:56 <ais523> DOS is more a hardware-communications library than an OS
23:03:56 <ehird> busybox systems run in kilobytes of ram
23:03:59 <pikhq> I can rather easily get you Linux on a 386 w/ 2MB.
23:04:07 <pikhq> Busybox and Linux, and voila.
23:04:21 <pikhq> That may well include the RAMdisk.
23:04:22 <ais523> Rugxulo: you can strip down the kernel
23:04:39 <Rugxulo> I've seen a lot of minimal Linuxes, and none are as minimal as DOS
23:05:05 <Rugxulo> anyways, just for completeness, somebody did fix up Linux 0.1 to work with modern GCC, and he backported Bash 3.2, VIM 7, I think :-)
23:05:21 <pikhq> Well, yeah. DOS is not even an OS, it's a couple of additional interrupt handlers and a bootloader that can be returned to.
23:05:26 <Rugxulo> what would you even DO with only 2 MB of RAM with Linux??
23:05:36 <Rugxulo> maybe with lots of (slow) swap space
23:05:48 <Rugxulo> Nethack, maybe, not sure how much RAM it needs though
23:05:58 <Rugxulo> (won't easily fit on a floppy, I think)
23:06:13 <ehird> you can run a linux 2.6 + busybox system with 1KB<x<10KB of ram
23:06:18 <fizzie> Nethack does need quite a pile of memory; and they dropped the overlay support, I think. Of course with Linux you have swapping.
23:06:21 <FireFly> The DS has extremely little RAM
23:06:26 <Rugxulo> yes, overlay support is dead
23:06:27 <ais523> FireFly: the overlay support's still in the code
23:06:30 <pikhq> There's also GB Linux.
23:06:30 <ais523> that doesn't mean it works, ofc
23:06:35 <Rugxulo> of course, depending on who you ask, so is NetHack :-x
23:06:42 <fizzie> And DSLinux is almost completely useless without an extra memory device.
23:06:49 <ehird> Rugxulo: by that definition, nethack has always been dead
23:06:53 <fizzie> Pretty much anything OOM-dies.
23:06:57 <ehird> also, the DS doesn't have an MMU
23:07:56 <pikhq> fizzie: Except for a few small programs. (I'd imagine Busybox is the largest thing that could possibly run)
23:08:22 <fizzie> Yes, but even the wifi setup apps tend to crash if you run them from a shell script.
23:08:47 <pikhq> Rugxulo: You're not going to be running GCC on anything with sub-128M these days.
23:08:54 <pikhq> GCC is a freaking memory hog.
23:08:58 <fizzie> And the DS does have 4 megs of memory; that's quite a lot!
23:09:02 <Rugxulo> I'm pretty sure GCC can run with 32 MB
23:09:12 <Rugxulo> maybe not for huge sources, but for normal stuff it's okay
23:09:22 <pikhq> Yes, but it won't be compiling anything but exceptionally small programs.
23:09:23 <fizzie> Anyway, there's a ds-native Nethack port which seemed to run just fine, so dslinux is doubly useless. :p
23:09:30 <Rugxulo> C++ is more of a problem than C
23:09:38 <fizzie> (With an extra-memory device I guess dslinux makes for a passable SSH client.)
23:09:47 <Rugxulo> there's a DS port of Crawl:Stone Soup too
23:10:21 <ehird> I'm tempted to fit Linux 2.6 + busybox in 10kiB - 1B on an 8088 now
23:10:44 <ehird> ofc, on an 8-bit microcontroller it's trivial
23:11:31 <Rugxulo> pikhq, I think older GCCs are less bloated than newer ones
23:11:45 <ehird> Rugxulo - making genius deductions since $year
23:12:01 <Rugxulo> no, I mean seriously, they use different backends, less memory needed, etc.
23:12:19 <ehird> newer gccs also optimize better.
23:12:23 <Rugxulo> it's not as obvious as you imply
23:12:48 <Rugxulo> hence some people still use older versions
23:13:30 <Rugxulo> and you can tweak it via --param ggc* blah blah blah (and BinUtils --reduce-memory-overheads)
23:13:32 <ehird> Why? Do they not have the memory?
23:13:44 <Rugxulo> some people prefer the faster compiles
23:13:55 <Rugxulo> with very minimal optimization impact, if any
23:14:09 <Rugxulo> also some ports aren't supported in newer versions
23:14:30 <Rugxulo> or even code that won't compile with 4.x, for instance
23:17:19 <Rugxulo> 4.4.1 is like twice as slow as 3.4.4
23:17:35 <Rugxulo> and it's definitely not twice as good
23:18:00 <Rugxulo> it's complicated, there are a lot of gotchas
23:18:33 <fizzie> "Twice as good" meaning a straight-forward runtime reduction of all compiled programs by half would probably be referred to using the technical term "miracle".
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23:39:19 <Rugxulo> BTW, Ben Olmstead shown his face recently?
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23:45:55 <Rugxulo> the reason I ask about Ben is because I found his MTFI interpreter recently, but it's seemingly very rare (only on Wayback, which is annoying)
23:46:12 <Rugxulo> a lot of Befunge sites seem to still be linked to despite not really existing, and Wayback is unreliable at best :-/
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23:49:17 <Rugxulo> BTW, mtve ... u r teh geniuz
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23:53:43 <Rugxulo> what's the diff between Befunge97 and 98?
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