←2009-09-09 2009-09-10 2009-09-11→ ↑2009 ↑all
00:00:52 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:02:03 <Rugxulo> ah well
00:02:04 -!- Rugxulo has left (?).
00:11:16 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:17:57 -!- ehird has joined.
00:18:15 <ehird> Speaking of internet outages, the cosmic irony of the universe gave me one.
00:18:27 <ehird> I am not stupid any more! Hooray!
00:18:54 <ehird> 15:39:19 <Rugxulo> BTW, Ben Olmstead shown his face recently?
00:18:56 <ehird> 15:40:57 <Rugxulo> (guess not)
00:18:57 <ehird> last seen early 2009, commenting on the 99 bottles of beer site on a malbolge submission
00:19:05 <ehird> 15:53:43 <Rugxulo> what's the diff between Befunge97 and 98?
00:19:11 <ehird> Befunge97 was weirder, iirc
00:19:13 <ehird> or as that 96?
00:19:16 <ehird> but they're both lost.
00:19:21 <ehird> AnMaster found some dox on them
00:19:30 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
00:19:44 <ehird> haha chatzilla prefixes things with "=-="
00:19:51 <ehird> and the - is below the = slightly
00:19:59 <ehird> so it's peeved that you changed your name, ais523
00:20:13 <ais523> ehird: you're using chatzilla?
00:20:20 <ais523> it strikes me as the sort of program you'd avoid using for UI reasons
00:20:31 <ehird> ais523: it's pretty good on windows, actually
00:20:36 <ehird> although the configuration UI is rather bad
00:20:44 <ehird> also, I don't use it connected to a browser, obviously; that's just stupid
00:20:46 <ais523> ah, I only used it on SunOS
00:21:01 <ehird> never try and use it on OS X after using OS X for any length of time
00:21:14 <ais523> I can guess what would happen
00:21:15 <ehird> it's very upsetting
00:21:36 <ais523> incidentally, what do OSX users do when a typical Windows or Linux user would do pgup, pgdown, home, or end/
00:21:48 <ais523> the chord for them on OSX is basically impossible to reach, worse than just using the mouse
00:22:06 <ehird> Page up, page down, command-left or ctrl-A, command-right or ctrl-E.
00:22:19 <ais523> ah, emacs bindings for home and end, that makes sense
00:22:26 <ais523> and the Mac I was using didn't have page up or page down keys
00:22:27 <ehird> Ctrl-A for the start of the physical line, command-left for visual line (i.e., line wrapping)
00:22:33 <ehird> ais523: what was it?
00:22:34 <ais523> command-left is just impossible for me to press
00:22:42 <ais523> ehird: I'm not sure, I'm not a master of Mac knowledge
00:22:43 <ehird> use the left command key
00:22:47 <ehird> and press left with your right hand
00:22:50 <ais523> it was a borrowed one from someone else's
00:22:53 <ehird> ais523: was it a notebook or a desktop?
00:22:57 <ais523> notebook
00:23:03 <ais523> also, I'm unused to using two hands to chord
00:23:15 <ehird> ais523: was it white, silver or silver and black?
00:23:18 <ais523> I chord with one where possible, so as to move the other hand in place for the next key
00:23:20 <ais523> and I think it was white
00:23:34 <ehird> either a non-first-generation iBook or a MacBook, then
00:23:42 <ehird> ais523: anyway, page up is Fn-up I think
00:23:44 <ehird> and page down fn-down
00:23:47 <ais523> I think the problem is, I had to look at the keyboard to do left command + arrow key
00:23:49 <ehird> also, chording with one hand is unergonomic
00:23:51 <ehird> just so you know
00:23:55 <ais523> ehird: faster, though
00:24:01 <ehird> ais523: nope
00:24:04 <ais523> at least the way I learnt to type
00:24:10 <ehird> dvorak is optimized to only hit one key with one hand at a time
00:24:13 <ais523> say I want to press control-P
00:24:26 <ais523> then neither of my hands can reach, say, y or u without moving, if I use both hands for it
00:24:44 <ehird> ais523: comedy option: they use their trackpad's scrolling ability
00:24:55 <ais523> ehird: that's possibly not a bad idea
00:25:13 <ais523> my laptop has a nonfunctioning trackpad, with the result that I can't use anyone else's without moving the mouse all over the place by mistake
00:25:18 <ais523> because I'm used to resting my hands on it
00:25:22 <ehird> oh, that's a common problem
00:25:29 <ehird> and why the nipple mouse is generally superior
00:25:38 <ais523> yes, but even worse for me because I have little motivation to fix it
00:25:39 <ehird> but, er
00:25:42 <ehird> is the trackpad in the middle or to the left?
00:25:46 <ais523> middle
00:25:49 <ais523> well, almost
00:25:56 <ehird> wow, you have really bad typing posture
00:25:57 <ais523> it's slightly left-of-centre, but only by a centimetre or so
00:26:10 <ais523> and my hands don't stay constant as I type
00:26:14 <ehird> nor mine
00:26:20 <ehird> still, they never curve into the middle
00:26:20 <ais523> they move into position for the next few letters
00:26:40 <ais523> ehird: if I rest my left hand on home row, the base of my left thumb is on the middle of the trackpad
00:26:45 <ais523> that isn't curving into the middle at all
00:26:49 <ehird> well, okay
00:26:55 <ehird> you must have very small hands
00:27:12 <ais523> no, just an awkwardly-placed trackpad, I think
00:27:22 <ais523> where did you expect my hands to end up?
00:27:27 <ehird> no, I mean,
00:27:29 <ehird> if they seek so far
00:27:39 <ehird> mine do the same thing and yet my arms barely move
00:27:44 <ehird> and this is on a full-sized desktop keyboard
00:27:49 <ais523> they don't seek far; my arms don't move, my wrists hardly do
00:27:51 <ehird> (of course, ignoring the non-main blocks of keys)
00:27:55 <ais523> it's mostly the palm of the hand that moves
00:28:08 <ais523> but that's enough to knock the touchpad, which my thumb is leaning on at the time
00:28:10 <ehird> hmm... moving that without your wrist sounds like you're begging for problems
00:28:17 <ehird> oh, your thumb
00:28:21 <ais523> yes
00:28:24 <ehird> this mental picture keeps getting more and more awkward
00:28:44 <ais523> in order to press the spacebar anywhere sane, the base of the thumb basically has to be on the touchpad
00:28:49 <ais523> with the left hand, at least
00:29:07 <ehird> Speaking of keyboards, I learned that I can type QWERTY in my head, but cannot recall the QWERTY layout.
00:29:28 <ehird> However, I could do this by typing e.g. "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog" and noting which positions I go to.
00:29:31 <ais523> ehird: same, more or less
00:29:39 <ehird> At the end, type a different lipogram to check that I have it all right.
00:29:44 <ais523> except that I can recall most of the letters on Qwerty
00:29:53 <ais523> punctuation marks, though, I'd have to mentally type
00:30:08 <ais523> it's also because I've got OK at hunt-and-peck to find keys when I can't physically see the keyboard
00:30:16 <ehird> qwertyuiopasdf and then I stop. Well, hjkl is obvious too, and I know there's some assortment of z, x, c and v on the bottom row, but couldn't be sure about the positions.
00:30:19 <ais523> the idea is to press a key at random, see what comes up, deduce where my hand is as a result
00:30:22 <ais523> asdfghjkl;
00:30:25 <ais523> zxcvbnm
00:30:30 <ais523> obviously, I'm cheating
00:30:33 <ehird> So I'd have to type out g, z, x, c, v, b, n and m
00:30:46 <ehird> ais523: wait, you need to see the keyboard to type?
00:30:50 <ais523> no
00:30:55 <ehird> [00:30]<ais523>it's also because I've got OK at hunt-and-peck to find keys when I can't physically see the keyboard
00:30:57 <ais523> I need to see the keyboard to place my hands
00:30:59 <ehird> oh, I see
00:31:05 <ais523> or feel around for the dedents on f and j
00:31:06 <ais523> but that's slower
00:31:12 <ehird> sometimes I shift off by one, but I just pick up my hands and put them back.
00:31:17 <ehird> also, those dedents are stupid
00:31:23 <ehird> just annoying for a non-touch typist
00:31:29 <ehird> and for Dvorak users, etc
00:31:33 <ehird> er
00:31:36 <ehird> *non-home row typist
00:31:56 <ais523> well, it's good to dedent something to help blind people find the keyboard
00:34:16 <ehird> ais523: what about blind dvorak typists?
00:34:28 <ais523> they should have dedents too, I imagine
00:34:36 <ais523> probably doesn't matter which keys, as long as it's known and consistent
00:34:41 <ehird> meh
00:34:46 <ehird> blind people aren't stupid
00:34:48 <ais523> although ones nearer the middle would help in finding the dedents in the first place
00:34:51 <ehird> they can feel the edges of the keyboard
00:35:06 <ais523> yep, but that takes time
00:35:17 <ais523> I suppose they wouldn't be using the mouse as much as you advocate, though
00:35:19 <ais523> if at all
00:35:34 <ehird> I'm shocked, shocked, that blind people might have to have a different UI
00:35:37 <ais523> touch-clicking (i.e. without being able to see the mouse pointer) would be almost impossilbe
00:35:39 <ehird> I hereby renounce all pointing devices
00:35:48 <ais523> ehird: sorry, I didn't mean it like that
00:35:53 <ehird> :P
00:35:54 <ehird> I know
00:35:56 <ehird> I was just joking
00:36:11 <ais523> ehird: out of interest, have you ever used a screen reader?
00:36:42 <ehird> incidentally, most of the talk about web accessibility is, while a good principle, not all that useful in practice: first, because screen readers use IE and mess with the result and are Smart (you don't seriously think they're confused by layout tables?), secondly, because blind people have gotten used to all the quirks they hear
00:36:48 <ehird> ais523: no, actually
00:36:50 <ehird> it'd be interesting to
00:37:09 <ehird> ais523: but all the good ones, e.g. JAWS, cost rather unreasonable amounts of mone
00:37:11 <ehird> y
00:37:43 <ehird> I wonder how many blind programmers use emacspeak
00:37:44 <ais523> ehird: I agree with web accessibility, but not mainly for the reasons you express
00:37:45 <ehird> probably a bunch
00:37:59 <ais523> it's because it's easier to process the data, which means that it's more likely to be forward compatible
00:38:02 <ehird> ais523: google is also smart - but really, web accessibility comes automatically from good structure
00:38:07 <ais523> yes
00:38:19 <ais523> e.g. some websites assume a particular screen resolution
00:38:24 <ais523> and we both know that's an incredibly bad idea
00:38:38 <ais523> and the reason is, because it doesn't work at all on things that have screens of different shapes
00:38:46 <ais523> well, loads of other reasons too
00:38:48 <ehird> yes (with the caveat that I'm not going to bother making it look perfect on 800x600 screens)
00:38:57 <ais523> fair enough
00:39:16 <ais523> ehird: incidentally, what do you think about the "site provides structure, user provides stylesheet" paradigm?
00:39:19 <ais523> I know it has no chance of taking off now
00:39:26 <ais523> but say it was dominant, rather than what we have atm
00:39:36 <ais523> would you say that it would be better or worse than what we have at present?
00:39:55 <ehird> Users should have the option of tweaking style, but having it solely down to the user misses the fact that presentation is a fundamental part of information (see e.g. Tufte)
00:40:24 <ehird> and so presentation is actually quite vital to information
00:40:34 <ehird> so I'd say worse
00:41:59 <ehird> in the end it's all a crapshoot :P
00:42:34 <ehird> people will always optimize for having things be exactly as they want now without consideration for the future as long as our general intellectual characteristics stay the same
00:42:39 <ehird> so how the web turned out was really inevitable
00:42:50 <ais523> well, agreed on that, I think
00:42:56 <ais523> although consideration for the future is how I want thinks now
00:43:00 <ais523> I've been bitten too much...
00:43:01 <ais523> *things
00:44:09 <ehird> the day when we can tweak our cognitive structures without destroying our memories or the rest of our personality is the day that shit stops... so, not in our natural lifetimes, that's for sure
00:44:14 <ehird> well okay, not for sure, probable
00:44:33 <ehird> (assuming no singularity-type event)
00:44:44 <ais523> people won't want their own cognitive structures tweaked
00:45:17 <ehird> I certainly would.
00:45:32 <ehird> but indeed, there's a chicken-and-egg problem
00:45:50 <ais523> surely, by definition you wouldn't want your own desires changed?
00:46:06 <ehird> I desire to be more rational and less emotional in my decision making, but I'm not.
00:46:22 <ehird> ais523: what about people who want to be smarter?
00:46:26 <ehird> I certainly want to be smarter, but I'm not
00:46:53 <ais523> I'm not convinced that a rationality tweak would do that
00:46:59 <ehird> those were two separate things
00:47:02 <ais523> have you read "The Caves of Steel" by Asimov?
00:47:17 <ehird> alas no; summarise?
00:47:29 <ais523> a robot joins the police force in a nearish-future Earth
00:47:35 <ais523> a strong-AI robot, that is
00:47:57 <ehird> (FWIW, Asimov thought the Three Laws were pretty good, so his competency regarding AI is questionable)
00:48:03 <ais523> oh, yes
00:48:16 <ais523> it's interesting to see what happened, at least; although I suspect in RL it might turn out rather differently
00:48:33 <ais523> also, I think he saw the Laws as a safety valve that made robots suboptimal but was the only way they'd be accepted
00:48:34 <ehird> anyway, go on
00:48:37 <ais523> rather than something to make them better
00:48:42 <ehird> ais523: oh, that's not the issue
00:48:48 <ehird> the issue is that robots can still do evil with the Three Laws
00:48:53 <ehird> it's not sufficient for Friendliness(TM)
00:49:02 <ais523> basically, the robot jumped to all sorts of conclusions that the human didn't
00:49:16 <ehird> okay... any justification for that happening
00:49:18 <ehird> ?
00:49:21 <ais523> and the human jumped to other conclusionss as a result of the robot's actions
00:49:25 <ais523> and there were, more or less
00:49:40 <ais523> in the end, the culprit turned out to be their boss
00:49:52 <ais523> the robot wouldn't believe that, so instead spent his time looking for spy beams, etc
00:50:15 <ehird> without any justification for the robot's behavior, I think that argument is monumentally weak...
00:50:26 <ehird> taking the form "robots would do this, QED"
00:50:27 <ais523> there was justification, but I don't think it was massively strong
00:50:32 <ais523> it made for a good story, at least
00:51:01 <ais523> I think the robot was too eager to assume that other people acted rationally, was the main assumption
00:51:07 <ehird> "Like most people, I was initially confused by EMI’s decision to release remastered versions of all 13 albums by the Liverpool pop group Beatles, a 1960s band so obscure that their music is not even available on iTunes." --A.V. Club
00:51:18 <ehird> ais523: well that's a rather obvious flaw in the robot's programming, then!
00:51:25 <ais523> yes
00:51:39 <ais523> certainly, the conclusion was that the programming wasn't terribly good for the purpose
00:51:57 <ehird> I'm skeptical that such an AI could even be of human intelligence
00:52:02 <ais523> incidentally, there was quite a lot of robots doing evil in the sequel
00:52:14 <ehird> as it could not comprehend the concept of mind-of-a-different-type-than-mine
00:52:25 <ais523> yep, I think it didn't
00:52:30 <ais523> at least, it accepted statements to the fact
00:52:36 <ais523> but it made incorrect assumptions otherwise
00:53:15 <ehird> grr... internet, you're back up, so don't go all unusably slow on me
00:56:40 <ehird> think my DNS is out
00:58:18 <ais523> does it work numerically?
00:58:29 <ehird> no idea, gimme some numerics.
00:58:43 <ais523> 74.125.45.100
00:58:46 <ais523> that's one of Google's
00:58:56 <ehird> works perfectly
00:59:17 <ais523> 207.7.108.149 is Esolang
00:59:27 <ehird> ais523: what's opendns.net
00:59:41 <ais523> 66.116.109.44
00:59:50 <ais523> "64 bytes from mdnh-parking-adult-109.las.marchex.com (66.116.109.44): icmp_seq=1 ttl=236 time=185 ms"
00:59:56 <ehird> erm, okay, .com
00:59:57 <ais523> I don't think that's the site you mean, though
01:00:08 <ais523> 208.67.219.99
01:00:51 <ehird> eugh, DNS just came back up
01:00:59 <ehird> oh, only partly
01:01:34 <ais523> hmm... it seems like the Windows remote bluescreen bug has been fixed in Windows 7 RTM (although it is in Windows 7 RC)
01:01:42 <ais523> the idea: send someone a packet, their computer bluescreens
01:02:01 <ehird> uh, we discussed that before
01:02:03 <ehird> remember?
01:02:07 <ais523> ah, ok
01:02:11 <ais523> you really expect me to remember?
01:02:11 <ehird> ladies 'n gents, it seems opendns didn't help
01:02:17 <ehird> ais523: earlier today, dude
01:02:19 <ais523> I'm in 9 channels at once
01:02:28 <ais523> at least two of which are actually active (not counting this one)
01:02:39 <ehird> oh, that's why AnMaster never seems to have backlog!
01:02:43 <ehird> it's obviously linear
01:02:48 <ehird> and with his >500 channels...
01:03:12 <ehird> (perhaps AnMaster would be best served by a client that joins every single channel on a server, but only shows ones you choose at a given moment...)
01:03:27 <ehird> I doubt he actually reads all of them at the same time...
01:03:49 <ais523> hmm... I think it's rather suspicious that a serious bug turns up in older versions but not the newest, around upgrade time
01:04:08 <ehird> seriously? there's a reason it's a release candidate
01:04:13 <ehird> and they said "don't use it on your main machine"
01:04:18 <ais523> yes, I knoe
01:04:19 <ais523> *know
01:04:20 <ehird> and "don't use it unless you're a technical user"
01:04:23 <ais523> but the bug's in Vista too
01:04:28 <ais523> which certainly didn't have those disclaimers
01:04:39 <ehird> so... let's get this straight
01:04:44 <ais523> OTOH, most people who upgraded to Vista will probably upgrade to 7
01:04:44 <ehird> microsoft left a bluescreen in vista to...
01:04:52 <ehird> make them even more known as the crashy OS?
01:05:03 <ais523> to reveal it when windows 7 came out as an upgrade persuader
01:05:06 <ehird> it makes no sense for microsoft to leave such a bug in windows an update ahead of time
01:05:16 <ehird> ais523: oh come on
01:05:19 <ais523> in some places, Microsoft are running adverts trying to persuade people XP is insecure
01:05:26 <ais523> ok, sorry, I just feel like conspiracy-theorizing
01:05:30 <ais523> I'm not sure what's come over me
01:05:34 <ehird> this is as tenuous as "the govt did 9/11 because glob boog duba"
01:06:04 <ehird> ais523: also, it can be trivially disproved, which is a stupid thing for a conspiracy theory
01:06:08 <ehird> specifically, if microsoft release a patch to vista
01:06:16 <ehird> which they obviously will ASAP
01:06:20 <ais523> oh, I can conspiratorise around that if I need to
01:06:24 <ais523> it won't be very convincing
01:06:32 <ais523> but it'll probably be as convincing as a typical conspiracy theory
01:08:47 <ehird> doop dop
01:09:42 <ehird> ais523: ping, do I have a connection?
01:09:48 <ais523> pong
01:09:49 <ais523> and probaby
01:09:51 <ais523> *probably
01:10:53 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
01:14:43 <ehird> god, how come this is so slow?
01:14:51 <ehird> grumble
01:14:53 <ais523> are you being packet-shaped?
01:14:53 <ehird> orange suc
01:14:54 <ehird> k
01:14:57 <ehird> ais523: no
01:15:01 <ehird> it was just down before
01:15:06 <ehird> now it's going at something like 1B/hr
01:15:21 <ehird> well, okay, 1B/2min
01:15:26 <ehird> looking at this google page
01:17:22 <ehird> ais523: could you set up a TCP/IP over IRC bridge? this socket still works :P
01:17:31 <ais523> I don't think so
01:17:37 <ehird> d'aww
01:18:08 <ehird> imgur pages still load...
01:18:36 <Ilari> 1B/2min? Aren't bulk transfers done using packets of about 1500 bytes?
01:21:02 <ehird> Shush, you.
01:21:04 <ehird> It's slow.
01:21:17 <ehird> This google page is just the header and one ad, and its been loading for about 15 minutes.
01:23:17 <ehird> Ok, WTF?
01:23:20 <ehird> *Okay
01:23:25 <ehird> It's mainly Wikipedia and Google.
01:31:12 <Ilari> Something in them is on Clearfeed?
01:32:52 <ehird> Ilari: Oh, don't be silly.
01:32:57 <ehird> My ISP just sucks shit.
01:33:11 <ehird> I mean, it was down just an hour or so prior.
01:41:08 <ehird> ARGH
01:41:16 <ehird> I wish it would *consistently* suck.
01:49:38 <ehird> So, anyone come up with something better than Cygwin yet, or will I have to take the plunge?
01:49:48 <ais523> DJGPP exists, but it's worse
01:50:57 <ehird> ais523: I very much get the impression DJGPP is old and DOS oriented
01:51:04 <ais523> it is
01:51:17 <ais523> it's entirely usable as a command-line unixy system, despite that
01:51:43 <ehird> but does it emulate the POSIX API like Wine does for Windows?
01:51:46 <ehird> that's what cygwin does, and it sucks
01:51:51 <ehird> or does it produce native binaries
01:52:00 <ehird> i.e., is it like a mini-kernel in userspace
01:52:01 <ais523> the bits of it that emulate easily; but it's native binaries it produces
01:52:06 <ehird> or does it just implement POSIX with Windows directly
01:52:13 <ais523> it just doesn't implement things like fork() that can't be done easily in DOS
01:52:15 <ehird> oh, ofc; you can't compile straight bash with djgpp for obvious reasons
01:52:19 <ehird> which makes it unacceptable
01:52:31 <ais523> there's emacs for djgpp
01:52:40 <ehird> someone in here said something about an undocumented windows API call that could be used to do it
01:52:48 <ehird> Deewiant? Azstal?
01:52:54 <ehird> (fork() natively)
01:54:08 <ehird> ais523: my measuring stick is basically "does drive:\foo as a path work without it mapping it itself"
01:54:19 <ehird> because if it does, it's not emulating a unix FS, which is good
01:54:31 <ais523> djgpp translates c:\autoexec.bat to /dev/c/autoexec.bat internally
01:54:39 <ehird> exactly, and that's wrong
01:54:46 <ehird> there shouldn't be a special path system as opposed to windows
01:54:48 <ehird> because:
01:55:05 <ehird> basically it's the distinction between "these tools, that normally run on unix systems, and use the POSIX API, can run on Windows, because we've implemented the POSIX API" (good)
01:55:07 <ehird> vs
01:55:22 <ehird> "unix lackeys! have no fear, we've hacked up a library which creates a faux unix environment on top of windows!"
01:56:24 <ehird> cygwin is definitely the latter
01:56:26 <ehird> mingw the former
01:56:30 <ehird> but mingw has no fork()
01:56:52 <ais523> mingw tries to compile POSIX source into definitely Windows binaries
01:56:58 <ehird> basically, mingw + implementation of fork() using that undocumented syscall + coreutils, bash, etc. = perfect
01:57:01 <ehird> IMO
01:57:09 <ais523> what undocumented syscall?
01:57:21 <ehird> [01:52]<ehird>someone in here said something about an undocumented windows API call that could be used to do it
01:57:23 <ehird> [01:52]<ehird>Deewiant? Azstal?
01:57:25 <ehird> [01:52]<ehird>(fork() natively)
01:57:31 <ehird> I'll try and find it in my history
01:57:56 <ehird> ais523: ZwCreateProcess[Ex]
01:58:10 <ehird> apparently it's how cygwin does fork, ...maybe
01:58:16 <ais523> oh, I thought it would be called something like Bear114
01:58:23 <ehird> i'd try and cite that but my interwebs only likes about 3 sites
01:58:24 <ais523> many of the undocumented syscalls are
01:58:29 <ehird> ais523: well, not syscall per se
01:58:32 <ehird> also, bear?
01:58:39 <ehird> is that intentionally, like, roaring wood-shitting thing
01:58:47 <ais523> ehird: more like teddy bear
01:58:51 <ehird> or is it Boolean Excess Accumulator Register or something
01:58:52 <ehird> ah.
01:59:08 <ais523> you know the social engineering virus which went around several years ago, telling people to delete a particular critical system file because it was a virus?
01:59:15 <ehird> ah yes.
01:59:22 <ehird> bear thing
01:59:23 <ehird> right.
01:59:30 <ais523> it's the same bear, apparently
01:59:39 <ehird> incidentally, is it just me or is \WINDOWS really unorganized?
01:59:52 <ehird> the icons are fun, though :)
02:00:00 <ais523> ehird: which version of Windows are you thinking of?
02:00:08 <ais523> IIRC they reorganised it somewhat for Vista
02:00:08 <ehird> well, I'm on xp atm
02:00:16 <ais523> which is a lot saner in terms of command-line use
02:00:17 <ehird> and it has wallpapers in the root, for instance
02:00:45 <ehird> I think I'll try Windows 7 sometime.
02:00:57 <ehird> although it forces cleartype
02:01:01 <ehird> on some fonts
02:01:02 <ais523> ehird: c:\windows\ was the standard place to save documents in windows 3.1
02:01:08 <ais523> believe it or not
02:01:10 <ehird> heh, because it was like unix /?
02:01:14 <ehird> and the rest is for dos stuff?
02:01:16 <ais523> at least, all the programs had it as their default path
02:01:26 <ais523> I think it was simpler than that, the programs were all installed there
02:01:27 <ehird> like, c:\windows\ is all your windows files, just like c:\programming\
02:01:33 <ais523> and it defaulted to current directory being the same as the executable
02:01:36 <ehird> ais523: heh
02:01:43 <ais523> and programs used current dir as default save path
02:01:46 <ais523> and the rest is history
02:02:12 <ehird> has anyone else here ever used Windows Me as their main OS? I did for years
02:02:24 <ehird> it really is as terrible as they say.
02:02:26 <ais523> I never used ME
02:02:35 <ehird> *Me
02:02:39 <ehird> it's an acronym, but it's Me
02:02:53 <ais523> what, really?
02:02:55 <ehird> yep
02:03:20 <ehird> OTOH, my dad at least used to have a once-a-monster Pentium 4 really-tall workstation tower thingy, which he did audio editing on using some old version of Pro Tools (so quite a heavy workload), and it had Me and never crashed
02:03:26 <ehird> so it's probably just very flaky drivers
02:03:33 <ehird> included by default
02:04:15 <ais523> "The Fault Tolerant Heap (FTH) is a subsystem of Windows 7 responsible for monitoring application crashes and autonomously applying mitigations to prevent future crashes on a per application basis. For the vast majority of users, FTH will function with no need for intervention or change on their part."
02:04:20 <ais523> hmm... that scares me
02:04:36 <ais523> does it mean that it attempts to figure out what the application meant to do in the case of things like null pointer dereference?
02:04:40 <ehird> it's microsoft planning for a false flag military operation, cooperating with the reptilian NWO
02:04:45 <ehird> ais523: probably not.
02:05:00 <ais523> "The Fault Tolerant Heap is another example of the low level efficiency built into the system: FTH automatically corrects memory faults that cause applications to crash which has the pleasant side effect of preventing future crashes. How does FTH work, exactly? What types of memory problems does it address, specifically? How do developers monitor FTH events and can they override FTH's behavior? What does this all mean to
02:05:02 <ais523> the average user? "
02:05:11 <ehird> ok, I'm scared
02:05:22 <ais523> even more annoyingly, the article doesn't actually answer that question
02:05:23 <ehird> but then, who uses Windows because of its internals?
02:05:31 <ais523> it just says "You will continue to learn about recoverability in Windows over the coming months here on C9."
02:05:40 <ehird> :D
02:06:13 <ais523> oh, there's a video, which i haven't seen
02:06:14 <Sgeo> I once had a program on my computer that was supposed to prevent crashes somehow
02:06:31 <ehird> from the people who brought you SoftRam!
02:06:34 <Sgeo> It was a long time ago, and I remember little about it
02:06:47 <ais523> there are two mp4 downloads, one marked "iPod", one marked "PSP"
02:07:51 <ehird> ais523: resolution, etc
02:08:03 <ais523> probably
02:09:58 <ehird> chrome sure does use quite a lot of memory
02:11:50 <ehird> I wonder why microsoft haven't tried to make cleartype not suck
02:11:55 <ehird> are they all blind?
02:12:32 <ais523> no, they actually like the look, is my guess
02:12:49 <ehird> but that's basically impossible, ClearType is like the worst imaginable implementation of subpixel antialiasing
02:14:30 <ehird> gah
02:14:32 <ehird> this is unbearable
02:14:39 * ehird considers leeching neighbour's wifi
02:14:45 * ehird looks for WEP networks...
02:15:07 <ehird> meh, only a WPA2 and I don't think I have the password to that one written down in any convenient place.
02:16:47 * Sgeo vaguely imagines taking a lotus coated surface and some silver-food-coloring treated water to school
02:20:13 <ehird> Sgeo: You may want to see a therapist.
02:20:43 <Sgeo> I wouldn't actually do it
02:22:02 <ehird> I meant a therapist for thoughts, Sgeo. You know. They call them "therapists".
02:22:24 <Sgeo> Nothing wrong with thoughts, unless they're suicidal
02:22:52 <Sgeo> Or if I was seriously thinking about doing something reckless or authorities would assume is dangerous
02:23:04 <ehird> Are you being purposefully stupid? I need to determine the best tone of facepalm to use.
02:25:58 <ehird> Well, cygwin.com isn't loading.
02:26:09 <ehird> beh
02:26:18 <ehird> ais523: do you know the opendns nameserver IPs?
02:26:25 <ais523> not off by heart
02:27:08 <ehird> meh
02:27:13 -!- jix has joined.
02:33:10 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
02:36:13 <ehird> "In a dramatic reversal of long-term IPv6 stagnation, global IPv6 traffic globally grew more than 1,400% in the last 12 months. Even more remarkable, this growth is due primarily to one application and one ISP."
02:36:22 <ehird> That's an awful lot.
02:36:50 <Sgeo> What application?
02:37:13 <ehird> uTorrent. The ISP is Hurricane Electric (not a consumer ISP).
02:37:16 <ehird> http://asert.arbornetworks.com/2009/09/who-put-the-ipv6-in-my-internet/
02:39:36 -!- jix_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
02:44:27 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
02:45:39 <ehird> GRAR
02:45:43 <ehird> someone fix my interwebs. :|
02:46:19 <ehird> wow, apparently OpenBSD releases don't even come signed or anything
02:46:33 <ehird> it's secure ... if you trust theo absolutely.
02:57:29 <ehird> ais523: what's google's ip? I don't THINK this is dns, but...
02:59:21 <ais523> 74.125.45.100
03:01:18 <ehird> thanks
03:01:20 <ehird> loads really quickly
03:02:14 <ais523> cached?
03:02:45 <ehird> nope
03:02:53 <ehird> i tried a search.
03:03:08 <ehird> OTOH, it's probably just that IP
03:03:15 <ehird> i.e., my DNS is resolving to another one that I can't reach
03:03:27 <ehird> because it happens on every page, and they load; just slowly
03:18:20 -!- coppro has joined.
03:48:20 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving").
03:52:35 -!- coppro has quit ("reboot").
04:03:32 -!- coppro has joined.
04:16:55 <ehird> ais523: seems the issue is with google.co.uk
04:17:00 <ehird> for me
04:17:04 <ehird> hmm... or not
04:24:38 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
04:25:43 -!- ehird_ has joined.
04:25:50 <Rugxulo> >:D<
04:26:00 -!- ehird has quit (Nick collision from services.).
04:26:05 <ais523> how do I interpret that smiley?
04:26:06 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird.
04:26:12 <Rugxulo> very carefully? ;-)
04:26:12 -!- ehird has quit (Client Quit).
04:26:21 <Rugxulo> o_O
04:26:46 -!- ehird has joined.
04:27:17 <ehird> anyone want to beam their properly working wifi to the uk?
04:27:31 <Rugxulo> can't, nobody's invented one yet ;-))
04:27:32 <ehird> that would be great. thank
04:27:33 <ehird> s
04:27:37 <ehird> s/\ns/s/
04:27:47 <ehird> Rugxulo: what, working wifi?
04:28:09 * Rugxulo surely doesn't have it, Broadc... (dies before speaking the name of the unspeakable one)
04:29:18 <Rugxulo> heh
04:29:25 <ehird> I was whoising to find the country
04:29:29 <ehird> though I should have guessed from "Broadcom"
04:32:23 <ehird> bleargh
04:32:29 <Rugxulo> mmm?
04:32:44 <ehird> it's annoying having an internet connection that only works on some IPs, you see
04:32:46 <ehird> thus, "bleargh"
04:33:00 <ehird> grumble... need to ditch Orange...
04:34:46 <ehird> which is a bad ISP, incidentally.
04:35:35 <ehird> especially as the support consists in its entirety of people who can't speak english reading lines of such stunning insight as "have you tried resetting all the router settings?" (in more dumbed-down words, naturally) from a book
04:36:03 <Rugxulo> don't all ISPs behave the same?
04:36:08 <ehird> big ones, yes
04:36:23 <Rugxulo> dare I ask, what country are you in again? UK?
04:36:27 <ehird> "the connection you're paid to give us is down" "um we'll send an engineer in 74 days" (It goes on 24 hours later) (73 days pass) "well we checked it and it is okay."
04:36:34 <ehird> Rugxulo: yeah
04:36:52 <ehird> switching to http://bogons.net/ is the plan...
04:36:57 <Rugxulo> heard today that wireless routers can cause headaches
04:37:09 <ehird> like, problems, or literal headaches?
04:37:13 <ehird> if the latter, that's FUD
04:37:13 <Rugxulo> literal
04:37:20 <Rugxulo> well, ya never know
04:37:23 <ehird> WiFi is absolutely harmless, and many more things operate on the same band and more powerful than WiFi
04:37:29 <Rugxulo> on figurative headaches, I can agree!!
04:37:37 <ehird> for instance, if WiFi is bad for you, radio has already killed us in a nuclear holocaust
04:38:42 <Rugxulo> I guess it depends on who you ask
04:39:11 <ehird> if you ask crackpots, you can learn very interesting things about the world
04:39:15 <ehird> unfortunately they're all false
04:39:44 <Rugxulo> well, ironically enough all the geniuses are often considered crackpots
04:40:09 <ehird> anyway, Bogons seem good; they do IPv6, they have no transfer limit, they don't cap the raw ADSL stream, they're explicitly targeted at the tech-savvy, and it appears to consist of just two people (or at least, mainly); one of whom worked at the BBC in the early days of the internet and originally registered bbc.co.uk; a quick google search turned up a usenet posting by him linking to some...
04:40:11 <ehird> ...information about ISPs that have Phorm (evil deep-packet-inspection based advertising thing) or something similar to that, anyway, in a thread critical of it.
04:40:29 <ehird> of course it's still the UK, so we're talking the third-world 8mbit speed (only 6mbit at this exchange)
04:40:40 <ehird> Rugxulo: they laughed at newton. they also laughed at bozo the clown
04:41:21 <ehird> both studies and basic logic about the frequencies that have existed before WiFi show that it has no harmful effects
04:41:36 <pikhq> And when I thought the Republicans had run out of shameful things to do: Republican Representative yells at the President mid-sentence in mid-sentence, stating "YOU LIE!"
04:41:50 <Rugxulo> news at 6: coffee is bad for you; news at 10: coffee is good for you
04:41:53 <ehird> "You lie. With your mouth! Lies. Come out of it."
04:42:12 <ehird> Rugxulo: yep; scientific studies, the mainstream news channels.
04:42:14 <Rugxulo> pikhq, you mean tonight??
04:42:14 <ehird> what's the difference?
04:42:27 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Yes.
04:42:32 <ehird> Also, "at this President mid-sentence in mid-sentence"
04:42:39 <pikhq> ehird: XD
04:42:41 <ehird> The President is pioneering Xzibit sentence technology.
04:42:53 <ehird> I hear he hired some Russian immigrants to do it.
04:43:03 <ehird> *at the President, not this
04:43:48 * Rugxulo didn't watch the boring speech
04:44:53 <ehird> how's it boring (note: I didn't either, for rather obvious reasons)
04:45:01 <pikhq> Rugxulo: It mostly consisted of "What the Republicans say has less factual basis than claiming the Earth is flat."
04:45:23 <Rugxulo> politics is crazy in America, and I'm not exactly savvy or interested, so ...
04:46:48 <ehird> American politics: Would you like right-wing insanity, or right-wing insanity with a little more fascism and crazy "moral "platforms?
04:46:53 <ehird> *"moral" platforms
04:47:04 <ehird> Because hey, after all, The Other Party(tm) might win.
04:47:18 <pikhq> I'm in the US. I'm kinda forced to care.
04:47:40 <pikhq> Though I'd prefer an honest-to-god progressive.
04:48:00 <ehird> here, you can stop caring now, I'll spoil the long-term for you: it keeps drifting to the right and nothing ever gets done
04:48:15 <pikhq> Except for acts of war.
04:48:23 <ehird> i said long-term.
04:48:25 <pikhq> And threatening to unleash the very fires of hell on someone.
04:48:39 <ehird> isn't that called christianity :P
04:48:47 <ehird> i think the rest of the world has that too
04:49:21 <pikhq> I was referring to nukes.
04:49:28 <ehird> i was referring to joking :|
04:49:44 <pikhq> I wasn't. A large number of Republicans wanted us to nuke Iraq...
04:49:46 * Rugxulo already saw that coming from far away
04:49:59 <ehird> What, nuking Iraq?
04:50:01 <Rugxulo> I'm in the US too, but it's still mind-bogglingly annoying
04:50:06 <Rugxulo> no, your other references
04:50:19 <ehird> plural? I'm not sure what you're referring to :P
04:50:52 <Rugxulo> no matter
04:51:12 <ehird> :|
04:51:29 <ehird> well thanks for making me immortal, my desperate urge to find out what you're referring to will keep me from resting in peace
04:51:31 <ehird> :P
04:53:26 <ais523> pikhq: what made the Republicans think that #esoteric would be any good at nuking Iraq?
04:53:55 <pikhq> ais523: us as in "the US".
04:54:04 <Rugxulo> I'm just confused Obama ain't exactly pulled everyone out of overseas wars
04:54:07 <ehird> ais523 almost certainly knew that and decided to make a "joke" based on it
04:54:19 <ehird> Rugxulo: you mean politicians aren't honest?
04:54:20 <ehird> I
04:54:22 <ehird> am
04:54:23 <ehird> shocked
04:54:53 <Rugxulo> but it's some kind of twisted loyalty, pretending that somehow Afghanistan is so moral and acceptable and Iraq is some gaping "blood for oil" war
04:55:07 <Rugxulo> maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see a huge difference
04:55:19 <Rugxulo> (besides the obvious)
04:56:59 <Rugxulo> it's just weird, that's all, "blah blah blah, war bad, Iraq bad, blah blah blah, we want out, blah blah blah (sends 30,000 more to Afghanistan) blah blah blah" ... huh???
04:57:19 <ehird> you mean... politicians... aren't consistent?
04:57:21 <ehird> I
04:57:22 <ehird> am
04:57:24 <ehird> so
04:57:25 <ehird> shocked
04:57:28 <ehird> that
04:57:29 <ehird> I
04:57:30 <ehird> am
04:57:32 <Rugxulo> "our troops are dying for oil, blah blah blah, war bad (people keep signing up, everybody "supports" our troops) blah blah blah"
04:57:32 <ehird> typing
04:57:33 <ehird> enter
04:57:35 <ehird> after
04:57:37 <ehird> every
04:57:38 <ehird> word
04:57:56 <Rugxulo> there's. another. meme. that's. quite. popular. that. isn't. so. annoying.
04:57:58 <Rugxulo> e.g. "
04:58:03 <Rugxulo> best. game. ever."
04:58:15 <ehird> yes, but annoyingness is a virtue!
04:58:18 <ehird> annoyingosity.
04:59:19 <coppro> ehird: do you use a trackball?
04:59:51 * Rugxulo would be surprised if yes
05:00:06 <Rugxulo> Marble Madness, ftw! ;-)
05:00:09 <ehird> coppro: any context to that? But no, I've never used one. I'd like to, but my gut feeling is that my thumb/fingers would be uncomfortable. Also, it has the same release-reposition problem for continued movement as a mouse.
05:00:18 <ehird> Why?
05:00:27 <coppro> I tried one out for the first time today, and it's awesome :)
05:00:33 <ehird> Is it?
05:00:36 <coppro> not a big ball you drag your hand across
05:00:44 <ehird> What kind?
05:00:53 <ehird> Ball in the middle, ball on your thumb, ball on your fingers (buttons to side)?
05:00:58 <coppro> ball on your thumb
05:01:06 <ehird> Surely that's awkward?
05:01:07 <coppro> the release-reposition
05:01:10 <ehird> I mean, my hand is small, sure, but...
05:01:15 <ais523> thumb-ball trackballs are my favourite shape for them
05:01:20 <coppro> *the release-reposition problem isn't that big, since it's only one motion
05:01:28 <coppro> it's akward for all of 20 seconds
05:01:31 <ais523> to move quickly, you generally leave the ball free-spinning as you move back
05:01:36 <ehird> Isn't it harder to position exactly? I mean, these are just my impressions.
05:01:37 <ais523> and precise movement's pretty easy too
05:01:42 <ehird> Hmm.
05:01:45 <ais523> it's easy to position exactly, and to move quickly
05:01:48 <ais523> but they're different motions
05:01:49 <ehird> I might just buy a trackball, then.
05:01:52 <ais523> so it's hard to do anything in between
05:01:54 <coppro> were I getting a desktop computer, I'd definitely get one
05:01:58 <ehird> coppro: superior or inferior to the nub?
05:02:09 <ais523> also, even optical trackballs seem to get dirty really often
05:02:18 <ehird> ais523: optical trackball?
05:02:20 <coppro> hmm... I don't think I was using it long enough to decide
05:02:21 <ehird> whatever that is, it sounds silly.
05:02:29 <coppro> ehird: where a laser detects movement rather than rollers
05:02:32 <ais523> ehird: that uses optics to sense the ball itself, rather than rollers
05:02:41 <coppro> well, not a laser usually
05:02:43 <coppro> but it could be!
05:02:58 <ehird> seems pointless.
05:03:40 <ehird> coppro: do you know what model it was?
05:03:52 <coppro> ehird: no clue, though I could find out easily
05:04:13 <ehird> hmm... I've just noticed that my motor movement in my thumb is worse by far than my fingers
05:04:29 <ehird> my fingers are faster, more accurate and easier to move
05:04:37 <ehird> I guess that's why a thumb trackball seems really awkward
05:05:00 <ehird> coppro: anyway, a trackball has the same context switch problem as a mouse
05:05:47 <coppro> sure
05:06:04 <ehird> which means it's hard to get too excited about, unless I was doing image editing
05:07:30 <coppro> just out of curiosity, do you use vimperator?
05:07:54 <coppro> saw someone using it today also; that was interesting
05:07:55 <ehird> no
05:08:12 <ehird> i don't think vim/emacs are really better than current UIs
05:08:38 <Rugxulo> vimperator? is that a Firefox add-on?
05:08:39 <ehird> both suck a lot, and the more WIMPy UIs are more immediately discoverable than vimmy/emacsy ones, so I tend towards the former
05:08:46 <ehird> Rugxulo: yes.
05:09:17 <coppro> ah, see, that's the thing
05:09:28 <coppro> it's keyboard browsing
05:09:32 <coppro> which is, tbh, very attractive
05:09:39 <ehird> I am well aware of what it is.
05:09:42 <ehird> I stand by what I said.
05:09:58 <coppro> there's some combination you press and it highlights every link with a number; you type in the number and you visit it
05:10:12 <ehird> Currently, you can either choose an erroneously spatial interface or an undiscoverable, inscrutable keyboard interface.
05:10:28 <ehird> The former is more common and discoverable, so I use them. Both suck.
05:11:04 <Rugxulo> ehird, I know you have tried Emacs recently, and the mouse support isn't exactly lacking
05:11:13 <ehird> I have not tried it recently. I know emacs.
05:11:19 <ehird> I used it because there wasn't really any other option.
05:11:39 <ehird> But if you think I want a mouse-oriented WIMP interface, you're very mistaken.
05:12:13 <Rugxulo> ehird, I don't understand what you prefer then
05:13:08 <Rugxulo> you can't hate both keyboard and mouse and still like computers
05:13:16 <ehird> I did not say keyboard vs mouse.
05:13:23 <Rugxulo> they aren't perfect (by far) but are all we have
05:14:06 <ehird> That's understandable, considering it basically doesn't exist at the moment. But WIMP-style UIs are erroneously spatial, and vim/emacs-style UIs are not discoverable by the same mechanism as which they are used; take a WIMP toolbar: you see the options, and can click them: the way you discover them is the way you operate them: by spatial elements. Plus, they often sacrifice clarity for the...
05:14:08 <ehird> ...sake of saving one or two keystrokes.
05:14:34 <ehird> I have not yet found a perfect solution, but there are ideas in my head I'm toying with.
05:15:30 <coppro> I think it's a tradeoff you can't avoid
05:15:37 <ehird> I disagree.
05:15:46 <ehird> WIMP UIs aren't discoverable because they're spatial.
05:15:56 <ehird> They're discoverable and operable spatially, sure.
05:16:15 <ehird> But just as you can have a UI operable by means other than spatial, you can have a UI discoverable by other means too.
05:17:33 <ehird> Erroneously spatial explained roughly: In a spatial UI, there's a distance between two buttons, say; there are two choices and neither has more "difficulty" or inherent distance, but one of them is further away from your pointer: the act of mousing to one or the other is inherently unnecessary work, just as a 3D UI is bad because you have to continually move around things to find them.
05:19:54 * Rugxulo confused
05:21:35 <ehird> It probably helps to have these thoughts occupy your mind for at least a month if you want to unerstand that.
05:21:53 <ehird> *understand, rather; I am truly a terrible typer on this keyboard.
05:21:59 <ehird> No, ChatZilla. Typer is a word.
05:22:14 <Rugxulo> I bet it accepts "typist" though
05:24:46 <ehird> Fyes, proxably. Bet typist us tou mlch af u rel wurd fouowr mii tou grayc yt wtx usagez.
05:25:03 <ehird> Well that's ridiculously hard to read.
05:29:10 -!- immibis has joined.
05:42:18 <ehird> coppro: btw, the numbered links are near-useless
05:42:39 <ehird> as it takes as much time to look at it, recognize the number, and type it as it does to mouse to it and click it
05:42:59 <bsmntbombdood_> i love numbered links!
05:43:02 <coppro> yes, but it means you aren't going to a mouse!
05:44:12 <ehird> coppro: yet it saves you no time at all. also, with a nub mouse, there's no mouse context switch time
05:44:15 <ehird> so mousing is faster
05:44:30 <ehird> (clarification: the numbered links are actually a-z0-9)
05:44:37 <ehird> iirc
05:44:48 <ehird> *(iirc), maybe
05:46:11 <bsmntbombdood_> you'd rather use a clit mouse than move your hand over to a real one?
05:46:12 <bsmntbombdood_> yikes
05:47:01 <coppro> bsmntbombdood_: leave
05:47:04 <coppro> :P
05:47:29 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: Infinite motion without repositioning, bitch. No wrist strain, bitch.
05:47:33 <bsmntbombdood_> wry?
05:47:50 <ehird> what.
05:48:08 <ehird> anyway, zero context switch time is hugely important
05:48:18 <ehird> as it means the damn thing actually gets used
05:48:25 <coppro> ehird completely missed the double entendre :(
05:48:36 <coppro> though I guess e's a tad young
05:48:59 <ais523> it was a pretty good double entendre
05:49:02 <ais523> we need a pastebin for that
05:49:05 <ais523> well, qdb
05:49:17 <bsmntbombdood_> oh snap
05:49:21 <bsmntbombdood_> i didn't even notice that
05:49:36 <ais523> then what was the yikes for?
05:49:45 <ehird> coppro: i'm a bit tired, actually
05:50:16 <ehird> although i generally don't look out for innuendo for whatever reason
05:50:28 <coppro> you're just young
05:50:55 <ehird> um, no.
05:51:26 <coppro> how old are you?
05:52:23 <ehird> 14, but seriously, I just don't look for innuendo most of the time
05:52:34 <Rugxulo> he's an old man at heart, and that's all that counts ;-)
05:52:34 <ehird> hey, google loaded fast
05:52:35 <coppro> yes. You're young. Trust me on this.
05:52:37 <ehird> is my plight over?
05:52:48 <ehird> coppro: did you know that if you state something over and over, it makes it true?
05:53:03 <ehird> maybe you're just young for using a playground tactic :)
05:53:39 <coppro> ehird: ah, but the catch is that you're too young to realize it's true
05:54:03 <ehird> coppro: this _is_ an elaborate joke, right? otherwise you're just being incredibly stupid
05:54:24 * Rugxulo thought it was already established that everyone in this channel is quite young
05:54:38 <ehird> Rugxulo: yes, gramps
05:54:40 <ehird> ohh snap
05:55:01 * Rugxulo makes ehird play with his old Apple IIc for punishment ...
05:55:14 <ehird> now come on, that's a terrible innuendo
05:55:21 <ehird> it doesn't even make any sense
05:57:03 * coppro will be back in 2 or 3 years
05:57:27 <ehird> coppro: umm... bye?
05:57:34 <ehird> that's a rather anticlimatic exit
05:57:50 <coppro> I was making a joke. Lost on you, apparently.
05:59:03 <ehird> correlating that with anything said recently either that's a really crappy joke or isn't even intended to be a joke at all.
05:59:13 <coppro> the former
06:00:56 <ehird> i assume it'll just remain an elusive mystery for all time then
06:01:27 <coppro> or a few years
06:03:49 <ehird> is the joke "ha ha, in 2-3 years you will understand the amazing amazingosity of innuendo?" because that's not, you know, a joke, unless you mean the xkcd-style jokes which are perfect jokes except for their lack of humour
06:04:48 <coppro> no
06:05:05 <coppro> the joke is largely that you don't get the joke
06:05:33 <ehird> i.e., there is no joke, i.e., it isn't the former, it's the latter
06:06:07 <coppro> it is a joke. However, it's on you, and, what's more, you don't get it.
06:06:16 <coppro> which makes it all the funnier
06:06:42 <ehird> i sure hope my mild bemusement is worth whatever effort it took to cook it up.
06:08:46 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
06:12:17 <ehird> coppro: the only joke I could think of is "I'll be back in 2 or 3 years [when you finally understand this joke]"
06:12:26 <ehird> which popped to mind almost immediately after reading it, but I dismissed it as too crap.
06:12:53 -!- pikhq has joined.
06:13:11 <coppro> hmm... I won't answer that, because no matter what I say, you'll take the answer the wrong way
06:14:03 <ehird> not answering is another form of answer that can be wrongly taken in exactly the same way, so that makes no sense :)
06:14:40 <coppro> true
06:15:17 <coppro> nonetheless, if I answer honestly, you'll probably get angry at me because you don't understand it
06:16:02 <ehird> do you live in some kind of warped universe where I'm filled with childlike naivete and bounce around fields of candy floss all day? because your behavior is completely incomprehensible to me.
06:17:32 <ehird> which, I presume, is Yet Another Joke oh the veritable rivers of laughter
06:17:54 <coppro> no
06:18:36 <coppro> however, some things can only be learned, not taught
06:18:52 <coppro> (no, I'm not going to elaborate on what those things are)
06:19:03 <ehird> coppro, master of zen and vague bullshit
06:19:09 <coppro> indeed!
06:19:24 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
06:19:37 <ehird> well that was fun, whereby fun I mean tiring
06:20:00 -!- coppro has joined.
06:20:48 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
06:21:24 -!- coppro has joined.
06:22:15 <ehird> haha
06:30:22 -!- oerjan has joined.
06:34:08 <oerjan> <ehird> do you live in some kind of warped universe where I'm filled with childlike naivete and bounce around fields of candy floss all day? because your behavior is completely incomprehensible to me.
06:34:29 <oerjan> if so, could you invite ehird's mirror twin here? should be interesting.
06:34:46 <ehird> i'm not sure such an entity could be described as ehird
06:35:22 <oerjan> ghird naturally, g for good rather than evil
06:35:41 <ehird> depends on your definition of good i guess
06:36:53 <oerjan> of course he shouldn't stay too long. he would probably be destined for a horrible fate: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.TooGoodForThisSinfulEarth
06:37:56 <ehird> i clicked it but my half-working internet connection doesn't work on that particular IP
06:37:59 <ehird> clever internet connection!
06:38:14 <ehird> well, it would work if i waited a few years...
06:38:16 <ehird> LIKE COPPRO
06:38:46 <oerjan> curses, foiled again
06:39:03 <ehird> oerjan: out of curiosity, do you get his joke?
06:39:37 <ehird> oh, I meant to say: we do have a qdb, ais523
06:39:43 <ais523> oh, good point
06:39:44 <ais523> someone add it?
06:40:06 <oerjan> ehird: i didn't find the actual joke yet
06:40:14 <ehird> oerjan: "I'll be back in 2 to 3 years"
06:40:20 <ehird> perhaps with different grammar, I don't recall
06:40:46 * oerjan sees nothing wrong with that sentence's grammar
06:40:46 <ais523> oerjan: <bsmntbombdood_> you'd rather use a clit mouse than move your hand over to a real one?
06:40:49 <ehird> oerjan: be warned that if you don't get it, we'll hear from coppro that you're just too young. too young.
06:40:53 <ehird> ais523: no
06:40:57 <ehird> that's the one before
06:41:02 <ais523> oh, there's another?
06:41:03 <ehird> coppro made that one after
06:41:13 <ehird> [05:57]* copprowill be back in 2 or 3 years
06:41:15 <ehird> [05:57]<ehird>coppro: umm... bye?
06:41:16 <ehird> [05:57]<ehird>that's a rather anticlimatic exit
06:41:18 <ehird> [05:57]<coppro>I was making a joke. Lost on you, apparently.
06:41:51 <ehird> (continue similar "too young!" and "it's funny because you're not sure what I mean" for about half an hour)
06:41:58 <oerjan> ehird: well i should be too young, since i aspire to be filled with childlike naivete and bounce around fields of candy floss all day. unfortunately the universe fails to oblige.
06:42:16 <oerjan> *not forgetting to brush my teeth, mind you
06:43:10 <ehird> the only toothpaste is overpowering bubblegum flavor and has sugar in it.
06:43:27 <ehird> the water is Ribena
06:44:36 <oerjan> that is not what i aspire to. you are confusing it with this world's ersatzes.
06:45:17 <ehird> i am merely describing the world in which ehird-the-innocent-14-year-old-oblivious-to-genitalia-and-all-that-entails exists
06:45:22 <ehird> don't shoot the messenger
06:45:26 <oerjan> ah.
06:47:59 <Rugxulo> ehird, are you sure your Internet troubles are the ISP and not the wireless?
06:48:20 <ehird> considering it was immediately preceded by my router's connection page showing invalid authentication/ppp failed/etc, yes.
06:48:26 <ehird> also, I'm not on WiFi.
06:48:41 <ehird> unless the ethernet cable is distorting my packets!
06:48:43 <Rugxulo> okay, but you mentioned wanting a good wifi I thought
06:48:44 <ehird> clearly I need a gold-plated one.
06:48:59 <ehird> yes, because running an ethernet cable across continents turns out to be even less practical.
06:49:07 <Rugxulo> what OS?
06:49:16 <ehird> the router console is a web page.
06:49:47 <Rugxulo> no, I mean, do you have access to a different OS for test purposes?
06:49:53 <ehird> sure.
06:50:00 <ehird> but I am 99% sure.
06:50:14 <ehird> the interwebs went down, they came back not at all, then they came back mostly but with some IPs being skittish
06:50:16 <Rugxulo> 99% sure of what? router's fault? ISP?
06:50:24 <ehird> then google started working smoothly, then stopped again
06:50:26 <ehird> Rugxulo: ISP
06:50:33 <Rugxulo> what brand router?
06:50:36 <ehird> remember that I've had many bad experiences with this ISP
06:50:42 <Rugxulo> okay
06:50:51 <ehird> also, it's an Orange Livebox. technically it's just "rented"
06:51:05 <Rugxulo> could be just some old firmware bug, who knows
06:51:11 <ehird> no
06:51:31 <ehird> it has all the characteristics of dodgy routing by my ISP
06:51:39 <Rugxulo> okay
06:57:21 -!- kar8nga has joined.
07:05:44 <Rugxulo> huh ... anyone ever taken a look at Befreak?
07:05:51 <ehird> i think so.
07:05:53 <ehird> "Once we move to 37signals Accounts we will be hashing passwords."
07:06:01 <ehird> ^ from the company that brought you Ruby on Rails...
07:09:10 <immibis> ...
07:10:07 <ehird> "..." indeed.
07:13:15 <Rugxulo> hmmm
07:13:24 <Rugxulo> the .tar.gz doesn't have BFC like they claim
07:13:32 <Rugxulo> and no docs included either (apparently)
07:13:45 <ehird> nsl.com has a befreak page.
07:13:51 <ehird> though obviously k-oriented
07:13:57 <ehird> also an implementation
07:14:24 <ehird> and k3 for windows to run it is available in nsl.com/misc or somewhere.
07:16:52 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
07:17:18 <Rugxulo> K looks more confusing than Befreak!!
07:18:00 <Rugxulo> actually the Forth-ish stack ops ("over", "under") seem appealing
07:18:13 <Rugxulo> maybe I should buckle down and just learn enough Forth to write my own Befunge93 interpreter ;-)
07:20:32 <ehird> K is quite impenetrable at first but is learnable in about an hour.
07:20:57 <ehird> (as in, fully grasping the basic concept and knowledge about most of the operators)
07:21:18 <ehird> it's array based, like APL
07:21:19 <Rugxulo> Backflip, what kind of stupid name is that? ;-)
07:21:41 <Rugxulo> ehird, I dunno ...
07:22:53 * Rugxulo doesn't understand the reason for inventing Backflip ...
07:23:15 <ais523> Rugxulo: it was an exercise in how computable those simple rules could be
07:23:26 <Rugxulo> output only as extension??
07:23:32 <ais523> there was a post on esoteric.sange.fi where someone was suggesting adding them to Befunge to provide function-call capability
07:23:39 <ehird> tarpits aren't meant to be useful
07:23:40 <ais523> and I/O has nothing really to do with how a language operates computationally
07:24:01 <ehird> it's about theoretical properties, mathematical beauty and purity, etc
07:24:20 <Rugxulo> okay, just less fun when you can't do as much with it :-/
07:25:58 <ehird> Rugxulo: btw, how the living fuck are you meant to pronounce your name?
07:26:47 <ais523> hmm... Unassignable needs more love
07:26:54 <ais523> it's really fun and challenging to program in
07:27:17 <ehird> i tried
07:27:19 <ehird> but gave up
07:27:21 <ehird> :P
07:27:46 <Rugxulo> I assume you mean my nickname as I haven't told you my real (pronounceable) name :-)
07:28:00 <Rugxulo> roo-JOO-loh
07:28:29 <ehird> you know, I'm pretty sure I don't know of any languages with silent Xs.
07:28:35 <Rugxulo> in (drum roll please) Esperanto, an artificial spoken language older than all of us combined (1887)
07:28:48 <Rugxulo> it's supposed to be "g with circumflex"
07:28:52 <ehird> ahh
07:29:02 <ehird> lojban in your face :)
07:29:33 <Rugxulo> ─¥
07:29:42 <Rugxulo> hmmm, that doesn't show up correctly for me
07:29:56 <Rugxulo> Ruĝulo
07:29:59 <Rugxulo> there ;-)
07:30:05 <ais523> esperanto!
07:30:08 <Rugxulo> (good ol' "esperanto-postfix" in Emacs, heh)
07:30:10 <ais523> I should have recognised the notation
07:30:17 <ais523> eo.wikipedia.org accepts it too
07:30:28 <ehird> esperanto is boring :|
07:30:33 <Rugxulo> it's quite common to use "gx" (although "gh" is more official)
07:30:35 <ais523> yay, my keyboard can type ĝ
07:30:54 <Rugxulo> mine probably could too via Windows input crapola, but I'm too lazy to learn how
07:31:09 <Rugxulo> ehird, do you really know / like lojban?
07:31:20 <Rugxulo> (I mean, speaking of esoteric languages ...)
07:31:21 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
07:31:22 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
07:31:23 <ehird> I like Lojban, unfortunately I don't know it, although I started learning it before
07:31:28 <ehird> I do hope to be fluent in it one day
07:31:34 <Rugxulo> why is Esperanto boring?
07:31:47 <ehird> it's exactly like every other natural language, except human-constructed
07:32:19 <Rugxulo> less wonky in the grammar bits (more rigid spelling and pronunciation), that should be a good thing
07:33:22 <Rugxulo> but yeah, if you wanna learn Lojban, you gotta get some reading material, which is probably a lot more scarce than E-o stuff
07:33:28 <Rugxulo> good luck :-/
07:33:39 <ehird> no, there's a wonderful online book about it
07:34:13 <ehird> I was making sentences about how I say that I say that my name is [Elliott Hird, except not perfectly because it isn't totally pronounceable in Lojban] in no time :P
07:34:40 <Rugxulo> presumably your name would be pronounced exactly as you say it normally
07:34:49 <ehird> no, Lojban doesn't have the sounds for that
07:34:50 <Rugxulo> foreign languages usually don't change that except for written purposes
07:35:01 <Rugxulo> Lojban isn't the one talking, you are ;-)
07:35:04 <ehird> lojban has a 1:1 written-said correspondence
07:35:21 <ehird> Rugxulo: you must transliterate your name to use it in a lojban sentence
07:35:25 <ehird> full stop, no exceptions
07:35:36 <ehird> well, there might be a funky quoting thing
07:35:42 <ehird> but that'd just be awkward
07:36:25 <Rugxulo> I'm just saying, I don't think Bill Clinton would call himself "Vilhelmo Klintono" just for linguistic sake
07:36:39 <ehird> so what? it's how lojban works
07:36:51 <ehird> it's simply the language
07:37:09 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
07:46:17 <Rugxulo> bah, 99-bottles-of-beer.net Befunge example is weird, seems to never end, even wraps (?) to negative numbers ... that can't be right, can it??
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:03:27 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
08:04:11 <fizzie> It does work with cfunge. Well, the downloadable version, anyway.
08:05:54 <fizzie> The inline version seems to have "\0\0" replaced with "{CODE}{CODE}", which is not very good; probably some sort of regexp backreference mishap.
08:06:20 <Rugxulo> maybe that's why
08:06:41 <Rugxulo> the tips on the site said change "{CODE}{CODE}" to "{}{}" which still didn't exactly work like I expected
08:07:33 <fizzie> That's quite a silly tip.
08:08:03 <fizzie> Maybe I should make a better tip.
08:09:27 <Rugxulo> goat head
08:15:33 <fizzie> Heh; when I wrote {CODE} in the comment field, it got substituted with the (broken) program, while the \0s in the comment turned into {FORM_COMMENT}. Impressive.
08:15:50 <fizzie> Fortunately the captcha also didn't work without cookies, so that version didn't get sent.
08:19:03 <Rugxulo> wacky
08:19:10 <Rugxulo> ah well, no big loss I guess
08:19:22 <Rugxulo> P.S. Found a very small (< 1k) Perl version of a Befunge interpreter
08:19:37 <Rugxulo> I know mtve also wrote a small one too, but this one is more compact :-)
08:19:38 <Rugxulo> http://www.foo.be/docs/tpj/issues/vol4_3/tpj0403-0017.html
08:23:02 <Rugxulo> mostly works although "?" may not (dunno)
08:23:17 <Rugxulo> can't tell if the comments are comments or code!! ;-)
08:25:33 <fizzie> Incidentally, the Javascript Befunge-93 at http://www.quirkster.com/js/befunge.html -- which I've used when in some unfriendly place without a Befunge interpreter handy -- makes # an infinite loop when executed from right to left.
08:26:06 <fizzie> It does jump properly left-to-right; I guess it just adds a (1, 0) vector after the normal delta, instead of moving twice.
08:27:28 <Rugxulo> a lot of interpreters obviously aren't very well tested
08:27:53 <Rugxulo> part of that is the fact that most examples are hard to come by (besides the "official" distribution)
08:28:02 <Rugxulo> not a lot of up-to-date Befunge pages
08:28:21 <fizzie> (Okay, in fact it just initializes the '#' command handler as "dir", which is the current-movement-function variable, and obviously gets the initial value stuck in the table.
08:28:56 <Rugxulo> I've been told that Bequnge also incorrectly handles #
08:29:53 <fizzie> That page says it's been tested against the Befunge-93 portion of Mycology; I guess that only does jumps in one direction.
08:30:32 <fizzie> Deewiant: Maybe you should add a # in some other direction, too; you're supposed to be thorough, aren't you?
08:31:45 <ehird> is there enough space?
08:32:00 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
08:33:24 <Rugxulo> and BTW, I can't find any links to "Betty" (although Wikipedia mentions it)
08:34:36 <fizzie> mooz had a rather nice jsbef (peculiarities: it reads a spec about the actual execution using a nifty simplified markup from a text field on the page, so you can do befunge variants trivially), but there's just the archive.org and local copies now.
08:34:51 <fizzie> I probably should ask him about whether I could re-publish it somewhere.
08:36:15 <Rugxulo> js as in Javascript?
08:36:35 <fizzie> Yes.
08:36:52 * Rugxulo saw a Silverlight one earlier today, didn't bother, even the author admitted it was buggy, and even he only tested on two samples
08:37:51 <fizzie> http://web.archive.org/web/20060925160700/kotisivu.mtv3.fi/quux/jsbef/index.html if you want to see the archived copy; I'm not sure it works after archive.org mangling, but the befunge command descriptions in the text field are nicely concise, especially given that those are what's executed.
08:38:01 <fizzie> Hey, I should be at lunch now.
08:42:41 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
08:43:51 <Rugxulo> so mycology's mycorand.bf is the only useful part for Befunge93?
08:53:43 <fizzie> mycology.b98 and mycouser.b98 both should work in a Befunge-93 interpreter, as long as it ignores the out-of-the-box (i.e. outside 80x25) text.
08:54:06 <fizzie> You can cut the corresponding squares off them if not.
08:55:02 <Rugxulo> okay, thanks
08:55:45 <fizzie> At least that's what I remember hearing; it's not *my* test suite.
09:07:04 <Deewiant> fizzie: No, I'm supposed to assume that if something works one way it works the other way as well :-P
09:07:48 <Deewiant> It's almost conceivable that + fails if adding 42 and 2 but always otherwise returns the correct result... I can't test /everything/
09:07:55 <Deewiant> I think I have such a disclaimer in the readme
09:08:30 <fizzie> Yes, but there are a lot more integer-pairs than cardinal directions. Still, I do get the point.
09:08:50 <Deewiant> There's not enough room to test all cardinal directions, I think
09:08:57 <fizzie> I'm just sure that someone, somewhere, somehow has implemented [] so that they work in some directions but not all.
09:09:00 <Deewiant> West might still be fittable
09:09:16 <Deewiant> [ and ] are tested using a noncardinal vector
09:09:24 <Deewiant> Which should hopefully guarantee that the cardinals work.
09:09:35 <fizzie> I guess that's reasonable.
09:09:49 <Deewiant> They're probably used for all the cardinals before that anyway.
09:12:59 -!- Pthing has joined.
09:13:59 <Deewiant> fizzie: Mycology's Befunge-93 area does do a _,#! #:< for output at least once
09:14:48 <Deewiant> And when testing # over the edge, it goes west.
09:14:53 <fizzie> Hm; maybe the page was lying, then. Or just used some ancient version.
09:15:08 <Deewiant> # over the edge was there even in ancient versions
09:15:27 <Deewiant> _,#! #:< might not have been
09:16:05 <fizzie> Ancient version of the interpreter itself, then.
09:18:59 -!- ehird has joined.
09:19:15 <Rugxulo> lol
09:19:19 <Rugxulo> some people are crazy
09:19:20 <Rugxulo> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/You_have_two_cows/18#Befunge
09:20:11 <Deewiant> What's so crazy about that?
09:20:52 <puzzlet_> it seems like a working code to me
09:21:18 <fizzie> Deewiant: What's crazy is that it doesn't use the >:#,_ print-loop idiom even though it's going eastwards.
09:21:51 <Rugxulo> the whole site (Uncyclopedia) and its explanation of the "two cows" is crazy
09:21:53 <Deewiant> It's not necessarily obvious unless you're experienced
09:22:02 <Rugxulo> plus the "COWBOL" and Visual Basic examples ;-)
09:22:14 <Deewiant> It even puts an explicit 0 instead of relying on empty stack popping
09:22:28 <Rugxulo> it's all a joke ;-)
09:22:57 <puzzlet_> why not x86 assembly?
09:23:08 <Deewiant> Because it assumes an OS by necessity
09:23:44 <Rugxulo> well, unless it used libc, but I guess that's silly
09:23:53 <Rugxulo> s//sillier/
09:24:09 <Rugxulo> do read the Visual Basic example, that's by far the funniest ;-)
09:24:26 <fizzie> The N64 and Game Boy assembly examples are funny. They don't exactly make much sense (both just set some sort of external value, GB one even referring to the undeclared num_cows) but the way they do it looks very realistic.
09:24:39 <puzzlet_> got the idea at the glimpse
09:24:50 <fizzie> I can easily imagine seeing a ";number of cows can only be modified during vblank" comment in a GB program.
09:25:38 <Rugxulo> lol
09:25:46 * Rugxulo just saw the Atari Jaguar page ... very funny
09:26:23 <Rugxulo> perfect pic!!
09:26:51 <puzzlet_> I don't like the python implementation much
09:27:19 <Rugxulo> "Jaguar was released in the US in 1992 to much fanfare, some trumpetfare and a good amount of bus fare."
09:27:27 <fizzie> And the N64 "use 'sw ..., offset(reg)' even if it does do a signed offset, instead of loading the full 8015F15C value to a register, since it saves an instruction" is also pretty realistic.
09:29:25 <Rugxulo> "To make matters worse, the only programming language that the Atari Jaguar supported was the Brainfuck language borrowed from the Amiga."
09:32:44 -!- immibis has quit (Remote closed the connection).
09:33:00 -!- immibis has joined.
09:34:49 -!- immibis_ has joined.
09:35:43 -!- immibis has quit (Nick collision from services.).
09:35:49 <fizzie> For those who are wondering (which is exactly none of you), the C64 basic entry "10 POKE 808,237" makes the STOP key stop working, so you can't interrupt the cow-printing. (Or at least it won't do what the key would normally do.)
09:35:51 -!- immibis_ has changed nick to immibis.
09:37:32 <Rugxulo> stops stop, eh? ironic ;-)
09:38:18 <fizzie> (Unless the 237 is actually the correct value to point at, but I don't see why anyone should do that. Except maybe to make sure you *can* interrupt it properly, but that doesn't sound very likely.)
09:39:09 <Rugxulo> another gem from Uncyclopedia:
09:39:14 <Rugxulo> "Because Esperanto is not compatible with Electronic devices, most Esperantists have gotten by using the letters h, x, ^, and 卐. So the sentence 'good morning' becomes 'hxx^卐h^ 卐xh^x'."
09:40:49 <Rugxulo> Your Father was a baboon's rump and your mother spent all her time backed up against the wall by sailors!
09:40:49 <Rugxulo> Bonvolu alsendi la pordiston, laŭŝajne estas rano en mia bideo.
09:40:54 <Rugxulo> (nice Red Dwarf reference)
09:44:13 <Rugxulo> ah well, it's late
09:44:16 <Rugxulo> nite all
09:44:18 -!- Rugxulo has left (?).
10:06:21 -!- immibis has quit ("Download IceChat at www.icechat.net").
10:40:34 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
10:54:17 -!- adam_d has joined.
11:01:39 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Page closed").
11:04:40 <AnMaster> <Rugxulo> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/You_have_two_cows/18#Befunge <-- looking at the TI-BASIC further below makes me laugh
11:05:12 * AnMaster wonders if skipping closing parenthesis is actually valid. brb going to test
11:05:27 <AnMaster> heh it seems so
11:06:04 <Deewiant> The ZX Spectrum one amused me
11:06:45 <AnMaster> hah
11:07:05 <AnMaster> find needs some -exec that runs processes concurrently
11:07:26 <fizzie> I am annoyed by the pointlessness of some parts of some of the entries; for example, the SQL one has a "LIMIT 2" completely arbitrarily; it's an aggregate function call, it will never return more than one row.
11:07:30 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Use xargs and &
11:07:44 <AnMaster> even something crude like splitting in roughly two equal sized chunks would be useful
11:08:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how would that work?
11:08:40 <AnMaster> hey the dc one...
11:08:58 <Deewiant> Without the xargs, even: find foo | while read -r x; do stuff x &; done
11:09:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I would prefer to not start one process per file
11:09:32 <AnMaster> because there are thousands of files to be processes
11:09:34 <AnMaster> processed*
11:09:43 <Deewiant> This is Linux, processes are cheap
11:09:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not when those will do a lot of work at once
11:10:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I wanted to use both cores, not get OOM
11:10:32 <Deewiant> Well yes, if you're doing something expensive then that's probably not a good idea
11:10:52 <AnMaster> because the processes are quite memory intensive, each one will need a few MB during processing each file
11:11:23 <Deewiant> It's more about time; if they complete in 0.001s it doesn't matter if they need a few MB
11:11:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, maybe 4-5 seconds per file
11:11:57 <fizzie> If it's just a one-shot thing, just do the find, dump results to file, split it in twain, run two instances of your process.
11:12:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, not a one shot thing.
11:12:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, because yes I thought about that
11:12:18 <Deewiant> If it's not a one-shot thing, make a script which does that. :-P
11:12:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, :P
11:12:35 <fizzie> I do have a bit of Perl for that sort of thing, but it's strictly for dispatching processes for our Sun Grid Engine cluster, not a general-purpose thing.
11:12:38 <AnMaster> well maybe I'll write a parallel find wrapper script for find
11:13:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: This is a solved problem, if you want a more permanent solution
11:13:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ?
11:13:42 <AnMaster> oh?
11:13:42 <Deewiant> See https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/parallel/ for example
11:13:56 <AnMaster> savannah.nongnu.org uses an invalid security certificate.
11:13:56 <AnMaster> The certificate is not trusted because the issuer certificate is not trusted.
11:13:56 <AnMaster> (Error code: sec_error_untrusted_issuer)
11:13:59 <AnMaster> meh
11:14:01 <Deewiant> Yes, I know
11:14:30 <fizzie> Ah, it's a cacert cert.
11:15:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah yes seems very useful
11:15:43 <AnMaster> wonder if ubuntu has a package for it
11:16:20 <Deewiant> Arch doesn't seem to, at least
11:16:24 <AnMaster> hm doesn't seem so
11:17:33 <fizzie> Though xargs does have the -P flag too, like they mention.
11:19:04 <AnMaster> ah that seems useful too
11:19:14 <Deewiant> Reading the manpage is always a good thing to do first.
11:19:17 <fizzie> If you don't need the fancy, that just might do it. The parallel page lists all the shortcomings, though.
11:22:39 <AnMaster> xargs seems enough here
11:42:36 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
11:43:35 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
11:43:41 -!- puzzlet has joined.
11:43:43 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
11:48:42 -!- puzzlet has joined.
11:52:22 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds).
11:58:49 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
12:05:01 <Deewiant> Story on Digg databases hits reddit; people argue against what Digg did; Digg database engineer signs up on reddit, starts flaming and hits negative karma within an hour: http://www.reddit.com/user/philovivero http://digg.com/users/philovivero
12:07:03 -!- FireFly has joined.
12:07:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, digg databases? what happened?
12:08:14 <Deewiant> Click on the first link and you'll see the story.
12:16:34 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Page closed").
12:26:14 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
12:27:10 -!- puzzlet has joined.
12:29:24 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
12:39:40 -!- ehird_ has joined.
12:57:23 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
13:22:52 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
13:51:06 -!- ineiros has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
13:52:59 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Page closed").
13:56:47 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
14:14:36 -!- impomatic has joined.
14:14:45 <impomatic> Hi :-)
14:30:06 <Deewiant> An amusing quote from the article, btw; "Computing the intersection with a JOIN is much too slow in MySQL, so we have to do it in PHP."
15:00:24 <GregorR> laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawl
15:18:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
15:39:43 -!- MigoMipo has quit.
15:45:42 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:06:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, do you think they ever heard of "benchmarking"?
16:06:56 <Deewiant> Of course they've heard of it, they benchmarked their PHP to beat their MySQL
16:07:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I have a really hard time to believe that php would be faster than mysql at it. Even though mysql sucks. But so does PHP
16:07:51 <Deewiant> It can easily be faster if the way they're doing the query and/or their DB structure sucks
16:08:20 <AnMaster> guess so
16:09:32 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving").
16:21:29 * oerjan finds himself humming "summon bigger fish"
16:25:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, heh
16:45:56 -!- kar8nga has joined.
17:10:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh and I thought I mentioned iwc earlier today, seems I misremembered
17:12:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, I don't get iwc today though
17:12:47 <oerjan> even with the annotation?
17:13:17 <oerjan> `define knock
17:13:18 <HackEgo> * deliver a sharp blow or push :"He knocked the glass clear across the room" \ * rap with the knuckles; "knock on the door" \ * the sound of knocking (as on a door or in an engine or bearing); "the knocking grew louder"
17:13:30 <AnMaster> oerjan, well the issue was the reverse, I understood it was supposed to be a pun on that word, just not what else it was supposed to be like
17:13:39 <AnMaster> what has knock got to do with it?
17:13:54 <AnMaster> and I know what knocking is
17:13:59 <AnMaster> at least some of the meanings
17:14:05 <AnMaster> those mentioned there at least
17:14:10 <oerjan> i am guessing you are missing the right meaning of knock
17:14:18 <oerjan> which was not listed there
17:14:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, and that one was?
17:15:06 <oerjan> 'find fault with; express criticism of; point out real or perceived flaws; "The paper criticized the new movie"; "Don't knock the food--it's free"'
17:15:45 <AnMaster> ah didn't know that meaning
17:21:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, what on earth has the vlc logo has got to do with that song though? I'm pretty sure that cone thing near the start was the vlc logo
17:25:13 * oerjan cannot make out the lyrics enough to tell if there's anything relevant said at that point
17:25:42 <oerjan> *sung
17:25:53 <AnMaster> mhm
17:26:40 <AnMaster> since I was playing it *in* vlc I first thought vlc failed in some way and was displaying a dummy image or something like that
17:28:23 <oerjan> now it _is_ also a generic road sign...
17:29:06 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_cone
17:30:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, well yes but that specific image of it...
17:30:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, is exactly the vlc logo
17:30:57 <oerjan> yeah but it may still be used for the generic meaning
18:10:09 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:32:14 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing").
19:07:19 -!- impomatic has left (?).
19:19:05 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
19:47:59 -!- kar8nga has joined.
19:50:16 <ehird_> 01:24:09 <Rugxulo> do read the Visual Basic example, that's by far the funniest ;-)
19:50:22 <ehird_> I've yet to see anything funny on Uncyclopedia
19:50:26 <ehird_> somehow I doubt this will be the first
19:58:17 -!- ehird_ has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.85-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.13/2009073109]").
19:58:35 -!- ehird has joined.
19:59:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ever considered a fingerprint for gettext?
20:01:32 <Deewiant> Given that I can't even remember what gettext is... nope
20:01:39 <Deewiant> Some localization thing?
20:01:54 <Ilari> I18N thingy?
20:10:18 <Ilari> Deewiant: man 3 gettext
20:10:41 <Deewiant> Ilari: google.com/search?q=gettext
20:27:34 <ehird> gettext is for lazy fornrs!
20:31:29 <fizzie> Yes, "L2SPK enlgz", right?
20:31:52 <fizzie> Is "fornrs" short for "fornicators"?
20:33:27 <ehird> 03:13:59 <AnMaster> meh
20:33:34 <ehird> you know the SSL system is broken anyway?
20:33:43 <AnMaster> ehird, context?
20:33:51 <ehird> 03:13:56 <AnMaster> savannah.nongnu.org uses an invalid security certificate.
20:33:52 <ehird> 03:13:56 <AnMaster> The certificate is not trusted because the issuer certificate is not trusted.
20:33:54 <ehird> 03:13:56 <AnMaster> (Error code: sec_error_untrusted_issuer)
20:34:05 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I know it is broken
20:34:07 <ehird> SSL is useful for avoiding eavesdropping; the verification system is shittier than a pile of bricks that are shit.
20:34:17 <AnMaster> ehird, is still irritating when firefox does that however
20:34:26 <ehird> so disable it :P
20:34:30 <AnMaster> how?
20:34:40 <ehird> dunno, it's probably in about:config
20:34:44 <ehird> or an extension
20:34:47 <AnMaster> mhm
20:34:56 <ehird> it is possibly the most annoying error page ever though, I agree
20:35:09 <ehird> it takes three clicks and a wait of almost a second to bypass it
20:35:15 <AnMaster> ehird, especially since there are so many clicks to get around it yeah
20:35:33 <AnMaster> ehird, also what... you agreed with me?
20:35:33 <ehird> and I have no doubt the people who made it have never read a book on usability, because that shit does *not* make the user comprehend what you're trying to tell them
20:35:34 <AnMaster> ARGH
20:35:41 <AnMaster> the universe is going to end this time
20:35:41 <ehird> AnMaster: i'm the alternate universe ehird.
20:35:51 <AnMaster> ehird, oh ok. Nice to meet you
20:35:52 <ehird> i jump around in fields of candy floss all day and am filled with childlike naivete.
20:35:55 <ehird> didn't you get the memo?
20:36:06 <AnMaster> -MemoServ- You have 0 memos (0 new).
20:36:07 <AnMaster> nop
20:36:29 <ehird> torernts are unreasonably slow
20:36:44 <ehird> http download: ~800kiB/s
20:36:52 <ehird> torrent: ~150kiB/s
20:36:58 <ehird> *torrents
20:37:02 <ehird> this is on a high-popularity torrent too
20:37:14 <AnMaster> ehird, what if everyone was downloading from the same server at the same time? would you get ~800kiB/s then too?
20:37:25 <ehird> AnMaster: yep, see e.g. usenet providers
20:37:27 <fizzie> You can set browser.ssl_override_behavior to 2 from the default 1, in which case it automatically downloads the certificate; that's a bit less clicking involved.
20:37:41 <ehird> it's almost impossible to get a usenet provider to give you much less than your connection speed
20:37:46 <AnMaster> ehird, well assuming a server with good bw. but that costs quite a bit
20:38:20 <ehird> evidently not too much; you can get unlimited download, uncapped, uncensored usenet with a huge number of groups for $15/mo
20:39:25 <AnMaster> well I meant for the server hoster, and yes it would work out if you get customer to pay. But I haven't seen linux distros over usenet. And linux distros over torrent is quite common
20:39:38 <ehird> Of course there are Linux distros on usenet
20:39:39 <AnMaster> often where they can't afford bw
20:39:49 <ehird> Usenet has everything
20:39:55 <AnMaster> ehird, oh really? would be split into thousands of messages for the iso?
20:40:06 <ehird> AnMaster: Modern clients handle that automatically, dood.
20:40:13 <ehird> They show it as one and download them all automatically.
20:40:15 <ehird> then combine them
20:40:18 <AnMaster> hm
20:40:28 <AnMaster> ehird, possibly I haven't used any modern client then
20:40:33 <fizzie> I think I got some Debian disk image or other such thing torrented several megabytes per second. But I'm not completely certain on this.
20:40:47 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, obviously I mean binary oriented clients.
20:40:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, well I maxed my connection speed on the gentoo torrents a few times
20:40:57 <ehird> fizzie: Yes, everyone loves the Linux ISOs. Not so much love for the Windows ISOs.
20:41:18 <ehird> Anyone can max out their connection on Ubuntu 17.97 Pooping Porpoise.
20:41:36 <AnMaster> ehird, well if a torrent isn't popular, what do you expect?
20:41:46 <ehird> 1775 seeds, 2537 peers.
20:41:49 <ehird> Yep, it's a ghost down.
20:41:51 <ehird> *town
20:41:53 <AnMaster> and for ubuntu for example?
20:41:55 <fizzie> Oh, and here's why it doesn't fetch the certificate by default:
20:41:56 <ehird> Nobody downloading this, nosiree.
20:41:58 <ehird> AnMaster: Similar numbers.
20:41:59 <fizzie> "This patch sets a default of 1, meaning that the cert dialog will be
20:41:59 <fizzie> pre-populated with the site's URL, but as Kai mentions in bug 401575, by not
20:41:59 <fizzie> pre-fetching it, we reduce the amount of text the user sees, and remove the
20:41:59 <fizzie> ability to immediately click the override button."
20:42:08 <ehird> Except all the Ubuntu ivory tower people have 100000000000000000000 jiggabit connections :P
20:42:42 <ehird> The problem with SSL is that it's trying to replace human reason in determining whether you can trust something
20:42:48 <ehird> and that will simply never work
20:43:01 * AnMaster notes "falling tree" animation in widelands is broken when you run at 2x normal speed.
20:44:08 <ehird> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8248056.stm
20:44:17 <ehird> I hope they used TCP/IP over carrier pigeon.
20:44:24 <ehird> Otherwise I call for a rematch.
20:45:03 <AnMaster> ehird, hm
20:45:29 <AnMaster> ehird, with QoS?
20:45:29 <ehird> ("Sure, the bandwidth is nice, but the latency sucks." // this)
20:45:36 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't know what that is
20:45:53 <ehird> also, they should have made it carry an SSD
20:45:54 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
20:45:58 <ehird> I'm sure pigeons can handle 81g :P
20:45:59 <AnMaster> ehird, there is a RFC for IP over avian carrier with QoS
20:46:00 <AnMaster> ...
20:46:10 <ehird> Why ...?
20:46:17 <ehird> Have I committed some nerd sin by not knowing that?
20:46:21 <AnMaster> no
20:46:53 <AnMaster> anyway, did they use QoS or not ;P
20:47:07 <Ilari> Also, SSL has global namespace.
20:47:09 <ehird> They used a USB memory stick.
20:47:15 <ehird> Ilari: yes?
20:47:20 <AnMaster> ehird, -_- You don't know what QoS is?
20:47:41 <ehird> I know what QoS stands for.
20:47:45 <AnMaster> good
20:49:56 <Ilari> Global namespace is not good for trustworthiness determination.
20:50:44 <ehird> Indeed.
20:51:46 <Ilari> mountainamerica.com? What the heck is that? Etc...
20:52:00 <ehird> A squatter page :P
20:52:14 <ehird> Anyway, DNS really needs distributing. Fuck the root servers.
20:52:24 <Ilari> More like phishing page (I don't recall what the exect name was).
21:02:31 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 148 (No route to host)).
21:05:26 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
21:05:27 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
21:32:48 <fizzie> Oh, and speaking of the traffic cone, it's not exactly the VLC logo image. For one thing, in the video there's a dark ellipse on top of the cone; that's not in the VLC logo. And the VLC logo has a bit of reflections going on in there. (Admittedly it could be an older VLC logo, since it's so very similar. But it's not the same image that's in icon and about-box of the current VLC versions.)
21:33:22 <ehird> traffic coon
21:33:49 <ehird> 04:05:01 <Deewiant> Story on Digg databases hits reddit; people argue against what Digg did; Digg database engineer signs up on reddit, starts flaming and hits negative karma within an hour: http://www.reddit.com/user/philovivero http://digg.com/users/philovivero
21:33:51 <ehird> haha sweet
21:36:46 <ehird> 06:30:06 <Deewiant> An amusing quote from the article, btw; "Computing the intersection with a JOIN is much too slow in MySQL, so we have to do it in PHP."
21:36:48 <ehird> wow
21:48:56 <GregorR> Maybe they're doing a full cartesian join :P
21:49:58 <pikhq> That... Is quite retarded.
22:01:00 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:13:45 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:44:03 -!- adam_d has joined.
23:08:04 -!- coppro has joined.
23:12:10 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
23:18:53 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:18:55 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:40:31 -!- Asztal has joined.
23:44:15 <Rugxulo> bo-ring
23:56:05 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
←2009-09-09 2009-09-10 2009-09-11→ ↑2009 ↑all