00:00:04 <ehird> but i'm pretty sure that it's at least okay, compared to other toolkits
00:00:12 <ehird> it's a very lukewarm opinion
00:00:22 <ehird> but implies... something greater...
00:01:37 <coppro> my thoughts on Obj-C are pretty meh
00:01:37 <ehird> "And so at 18 years of age, I moved from my tiny town of 800 people, changed my gender, moved to a new city, and tried to start a new life. I think I am failing (IAmA)."
00:01:41 <ehird> I've got to wonder how the gender part fits in here
00:01:52 <coppro> clearly to erase eir identity
00:01:58 <ehird> ...although consciously changing your *gender* has to be some new superpower I've never heard of
00:02:07 <ehird> i've only heard of correcting your sex to match your gender :-P
00:03:11 <coppro> the terms aren't that well-defined
00:03:22 <ehird> gender is mental, sex is physical
00:03:45 <ehird> transgender is sex/gender mismatch, transsexual is prior sex/gender mismatch corrected by sex change
00:04:07 <ehird> the text makes it clear it's just a mistake, but it's amusing
00:05:01 <coppro> ehird: that's one definition and probably the most sensible one
00:05:30 <ehird> it's the widely accepted one and the one all trans* (admittedly not very many) i've known have used /shrug
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00:56:01 * ehird considers ditching his VPS and getting a NearlyFreeSpeech.NET account...
00:56:02 <ehird> Advantages: Less administration overhead, way cheaper (if I had a dynamic 300MB site that uses MySQL/InnoDB and served 10 GB a month, then it's around $7.50-$8 a month after the first month ($19.07 for the first month including domain registration)... so it's pretty much dirt cheap), tech savvy, minimal bullshit, they're pretty cool, good reputation, the neat thing where they mirror your site on a bunch of servers automatically and use the less populated ones
00:56:02 <ehird> Disadvantages: Can't run overly-intensive processes, can't mess about with root, can't use things like FastCGI (just PHP or CGI), can't run IRC bots
00:56:13 <ehird> it's a tough one :P
00:56:38 <ehird> the administration thing is prolly a big deal though, my server's just sitting there because i haven't got it set up yet again
00:57:50 <ehird> virtual private server; basically you get root on a Xen instance
00:58:01 <ehird> + bandwidth, storage etc
00:58:08 <ehird> it's just like a dedi, except a bit slower and way cheaper
00:58:18 <GregorR> Not being able to run bots would suck.
00:58:27 <ehird> GregorR: true. you know what they should do?
00:58:38 <GregorR> ... allow you to run bots?
00:58:39 <ais523> ehird: why can't you run IRC bots?
00:58:44 <ehird> GregorR: shush you,
00:58:48 <ehird> ais523: because it's a web hosting service
00:59:00 <ehird> i'd use it to host software repos, some useless bloggy thing, whatever
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00:59:13 <ehird> there should be a service thing where:
00:59:25 <ehird> Amazon's EC2 lets you spawn VPSes for an hourly rate or whatever, and they come with OSs and stuff
00:59:37 <ehird> something like that, except instead of spawning a VPS, you just spawn a procses
00:59:44 <ehird> and still migrated across servers and shit
01:00:10 <ehird> like, "run this process somewhere on your servers, I don't care, just give it an internet connection, a barebones Linux and some persistent storage"
01:00:43 <ehird> then it'd just be like $ run-remote -d botinstance/ ./start irc.freenode.net 6667
01:01:05 <ehird> it'd tar up botinstance, send it across, run ./start with those arguments, and persist any changes in the directory ./start is in (botinstance/)
01:01:10 <ehird> and it could move across servers and shit automatically
01:01:25 <ehird> basically like nohup, except it continues running after you shut the machine down :-P
01:01:42 <ehird> (when it terminates you can download the final modified botinstance/)
01:02:29 <ehird> it'd be like a vps, but cheaper + way simpler
01:02:50 <ehird> also, it'd bring more-or-less pay for what you use pricing to VPSes, which is rather difficult with a regular sort of VPS
01:04:01 <ehird> in conclusion, I ramble a lot
01:04:33 <ehird> ais523: btw, the technical reason you can't run an irc bot or fastcgi or whatever is presumably that your site is served through various servers at various times depending on load
01:04:55 <ehird> and migrating processes would be a Bitch(TM), especially when for a web hosting service, IRC bots are irrelevant (they just use up resources) and FastCGI is relatively unused
01:05:08 <ehird> although with heavy web frameworks getting more common, it'll be an issue for them
01:05:19 <ehird> as Rails, Django etc don't play too nicely with a set-up-every-request CGI environment...
01:05:34 <ehird> still, static files are nice for anything I'd want to put on there, so that doesn't bother me
01:05:36 <ehird> it's mainly the irc bot thing
01:05:42 <ehird> ais523: what do you think of my remote-process idea up there? ↑
01:06:00 <ais523> ehird: busy now, I'll look later
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01:46:12 <ehird> http://www.ticalc.org/archives/news/articles/14/145/145273.html
01:46:14 <ehird> all ti signing keys factored
01:46:22 <ehird> "Yes, due to a gigantic effort by the entire community, via the boinc project, we could factor keys within a week."
01:46:28 <ehird> i can see they're putting the resources to good use!
01:47:09 <ehird> "I thought this was going to be a mathematical analysis of the musical keys in which Atlanta-born rapper TI can sing. I have to admit I was somewhat disappointed."
01:47:30 <Sgeo> The keys are on Wikileak
01:47:40 <Sgeo> As well as elsewhere
01:49:11 <ehird> TI won't give a shit.
01:50:42 <ehird> Okay, maybe they do: http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/9fkzd/censorship_on_reddit_yes_here_is_the_evidence/c0cl3sq
01:51:33 <ehird> Someone ought to get my Arch install working.
02:13:37 <ehird> X is still shit, btw.
02:21:52 * Sgeo remembers seeing people agree with The UNIX Hater's Manual (iirc) about X sucking.
02:23:37 <ehird> The UNIX Hater's Handbook
02:23:40 <ehird> But, uhh, no shit?
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03:33:26 <ehird> i think we've established it refers to ILLICIT SUBSTANCES.
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04:52:43 <GregorR> Aug 29 12:31:30 <ehird> "Monster.Dildo.Cocks.XXX.DVDrip.XviD-GraceNotes" —reddit <-- I thought this was a confusing name for a porn vid!
04:52:58 <ehird> ... oldest ... logreading ... ever
04:53:00 <GregorR> ---: It's a guy in a rooster costume handing out complimentary dildos to promote the opening of a new adult video store.
04:53:18 <GregorR> Actually, I had happened to type `quote and get
04:53:21 <HackEgo> 78|<GregorR> ??? <GregorR> Are the cocks actually just implanted dildos? <GregorR> Or are there monster dildos and cocks? <GregorR> Or are both the dildos and cocks monster?
04:53:23 <ehird> I'm infinitely confused, dude
04:53:34 <GregorR> So I pasted that to somebody, then the log it came from.
04:53:44 <GregorR> And he figured out what it actually is :P
04:53:57 <ehird> GregorR: What what actually is?
04:54:17 <GregorR> Monster.Dildo.Cocks.XXX.DVDrip.XviD-GraceNotes
04:54:40 <ehird> I'm trying to figure out how the rooster comes in, dude.
04:54:56 <ehird> Slereah: It's on scene FTP, bitch.
04:55:06 <ehird> GregorR: Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh.
04:55:26 <ehird> That still doesn't explain Monster. :P
04:55:49 <GregorR> I assume the dildos are monster.
04:56:11 <ehird> Like, shaped like the penis of a monster?
04:56:22 <HackEgo> * an imaginary creature usually having various human and animal parts \ * giant: someone or something that is abnormally large and powerful \ * freak: a person or animal that is markedly unusual or deformed
04:56:32 <ehird> So this whole story is...
04:56:35 <ehird> a... a FABRICATION
04:57:03 <ehird> Anyway, to solve the mystery: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/9fc4n/i_was_in_a_major_mp3_releasing_group_in_the/c0cjyyj?context=1
05:02:34 <ehird> GregorR: how much do I need to bribe you to rant about how much my remote process thingy idea sucks?
05:02:53 <GregorR> Depends, how much does it suck?
05:03:09 <GregorR> That's actually an interesting idea, I was considering implementing it modulo the fact that I don't have the resources.
05:03:26 <ehird> I guess you need to pay more to get criticism :D
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05:04:14 <GregorR> You keep falling ... out of the channel?
05:04:23 <ehird> There's a trap door in the corner.
05:05:07 <ais523> ehird: you know your duty
05:05:13 <ais523> and there will no longer be a trapdoor
05:07:56 <ehird> Actually I wish more things had Compose.
05:08:06 <ehird> I should set it up, but OTOH I could just get Arch woring.
05:09:12 <ehird> Well, Arch works; X11 doesn't.
05:09:28 * ais523 wonders what ehird is doing online at 5am
05:09:42 <ehird> I could ask the same of you
05:09:57 <ais523> but IIRC, school's started already
05:10:00 <ehird> You and your logic :P
05:13:04 * ehird wonders why there isn't a flipped-` character
05:13:15 <ehird> Then we could have better ``dumb quotes[INVALID][INVALID]
05:13:58 * ais523 is annoyed at not being able to use control-click for autoscroll
05:14:17 <ais523> my mousewheel has started acting up, so I can't really use it for middle-clicking very easily
05:14:24 <ais523> so I've been control-clicking links to open them in new tabs
05:14:39 <ais523> but unfortunately, the same substitution doesn't work on autoscroll
05:14:53 <ais523> (I have Firefox set to paste on middle-click for textboxes, scroll on middle-click for everything else)
05:14:57 <ehird> also, you really need to replace that computer...
05:15:10 <ehird> broken touchpad, associated mouse has broken button... :D
05:15:14 <ais523> hmm... is it possible to map mouse buttons-modifier combinations to other mouse buttons?
05:15:20 <ehird> yes, I'm pretty sure
05:15:21 <ais523> and it's not completely broken, just intermittent
05:15:32 <ehird> worst-case, just catch Ctrl-click in a daemon
05:15:37 <ehird> and send a middle click event
05:16:15 <ais523> oh, this is the third mouse I've been on
05:16:24 <ais523> the second one broke, the first one was wireless and used up too much battery power
05:16:36 <ais523> and ofc the touchpad didn't work for more than about a minute
05:17:04 <ehird> ais523: remember how you were incredulous at people paying more than a few hundred pounds for a computer?
05:17:10 <ehird> it's so they don't have to deal with that shit.
05:17:24 <ais523> the point is, despite all your claims, this computer still works sufficiently well for me to not really consider changing
05:17:36 <ehird> the fact is that the components break
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05:17:52 <ehird> you won't say that when the keyboard breaks beacuse of the same shoddy engineering to cut costs
05:18:31 <ais523> ehird: on my first computer (a BBC Micro B), neither the Y or B key worked
05:18:34 <ais523> but I worked around it
05:18:41 <ais523> by redefining a couple of the function keys
05:18:53 <ehird> ais523: and surely you are not surprised that other, more sane people would consider it a better solution to buy a new one?
05:19:07 <ais523> ehird: it cost about £20, it was junk someone else was throwing out
05:19:12 <ais523> I didn't really expect it to work well
05:19:19 <ehird> then you are using an invalid example.
05:19:55 <ehird> when I buy, e.g. a cheap Dell laptop, I expect it to be a bit of a pain to get working, not have very good components, and break sooner than a more expensive alternative
05:20:12 <ehird> when I buy, e.g. a ThinkPad, I expect it to work fine, have good components, last longer and cost several times more
05:20:21 <ais523> sufficiently sooner that the more expensive one lasts longer on average?
05:20:32 <ehird> thinkpads last like 10 yaers
05:20:37 <ais523> I'd expect people like you to upgrade often enough that you'd be upgrading before it broke, anyway
05:20:46 <ais523> I mean, could you cope with a computer that was top of the range 10 years ago?
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05:21:00 <ehird> probably not, but the point is that something that totally breaks later on,
05:21:04 <ehird> will likely get defects a lot sooner
05:21:23 <ehird> besides, things like input devices are very important, for obvious reasons
05:21:47 <ehird> and lower-end hardware has a tendency to... disagree...
05:22:57 <ehird> I'm just saying that it's understandable paying £800 for a sturdy, lightweight ThinkPad with long battery life, a good screen, an exceptional keyboard, the nub mouse, high-quality hardware and good compatibility, vs paying £300 for a low-end Dell
05:22:59 <ais523> I'm still amused that it came with a Windows XP manual
05:23:16 <ais523> heh, the battery life is about 10 minutes on here
05:23:21 <ehird> if you don't mind fiddling a whole bunch, don't mind being inconvenienced at all and are on a tight budget, of course the Dell is superior
05:23:45 <ais523> I'm glad that it's fast at hibernating
05:24:09 <ehird> you should be able to close a notebook's lid and pick it up immediately afterwards imo
05:24:27 <ehird> I think that the suspend modes you get in linux are wrong
05:24:37 <ais523> I don't, I don't like the chance of the hard drive being knocked
05:24:47 <ehird> ais523: see, the high-end notebooks have shock protection on the harddrive
05:24:51 <ehird> that automatically parks the head
05:25:01 <ais523> ehird: I know, and it even works on Linux as of a few months ago
05:25:11 <ehird> coppro: It should first go to an ultra-low-power mode, solely to suspend to disk, and then it suspends to RAM
05:25:25 <ehird> the difference is that it turns off immediately, instead of taking a second or two to suspend to anything
05:25:26 <ais523> but, I don't trust it to work in, say, the middle of a distro upgrade
05:25:36 <ehird> ais523: you're suspending in the middle of a distro upgrade?
05:25:49 <ais523> well, not suspending exactly
05:25:58 <ais523> but the screen permablanked due to a bug
05:26:14 <ais523> so in the end, I had to REISUB it, in the middle of the upgrade
05:26:17 <ehird> that's another issue with the hardware :-P
05:26:22 <ais523> credit to Debian and possibly Ubuntu that it still worked afterwards
05:26:36 <ais523> although I had to finish off the upgrade by giving the required apt commands at the command prompt
05:26:41 <ehird> Alt+SysRq+stuff doesn't always work :(
05:26:51 <ais523> ehird: the computer was still responding fine
05:27:04 <ais523> the only reason I did it directly to the kernel is that the GUI would never have let me abort a distro upgrade
05:27:40 <ehird> specifically, if X isn't recognizing your keyboard and mouse, and it's frozen, then you can't do anything with them
05:28:17 <ais523> is SysRq handled at the X level, or the kernel level?
05:28:21 <ehird> ais523: kernel, of course
05:28:27 <ehird> but X steals the keyboard, I guess
05:28:32 <ehird> and then fails to do anything with it
05:28:45 <ais523> SysRq was originally invented so that brand-new multitasking operating systems had some way to tell them to switch processes
05:28:56 <ais523> so that none of the other keys would conflict with existing programs
05:29:07 <ais523> but then, people didn't use it, and invented alt-tab and so on instead
05:29:16 <ais523> (and control-alt-delete, of course)
05:29:46 <ais523> and to think control-alt-delete was originally security through obscurity (you could explain it to someone over the phone, but there's no chance they'd think of it by themselves, was the idea)
05:32:44 <ehird> ais523: haha, really?
05:32:54 <ehird> what was it for at the time?
05:33:09 <ais523> but people weren't supposed to know that
05:33:22 <ehird> to keep techies employed?
05:33:30 <ais523> and because they'd lose their data if they tried it
05:33:43 <ais523> and companies nearly always misjudge the technical competence of their users one way or another
05:36:00 <ehird> /me wonders why the inscrutable alt+unicode from windows and opt+{semi-random key/prefix} [key] caught on and compose prefix key didn't
05:36:18 <ehird> I mean, Compose ' e makes more sense than Option-e e.
05:36:27 <ais523> emacs uses C-x 8 for compose
05:36:32 <ais523> which is easy and predictable, yet a pain to type
05:36:37 <ais523> I mean, once you know about the C-x 8
05:36:49 <ais523> and, interestingly, Word has its own compose mechanisms
05:37:06 <ehird> hmm... I wonder what you use for ˝ with standard compose
05:37:10 <ais523> despite control-alt-e being e in most of the rest of Windows
05:37:20 <ehird> it's Option+j o to make ő here
05:37:34 <ehird> but I don't know how X11 Compose analogises double characters
05:38:12 <ehird> ais523: what's ˝ called?
05:38:26 <ais523> is that the hungarian double-acute?
05:38:34 <ais523> they look the same at this font size
05:39:49 <ehird> double-acute, apparently
05:40:05 <ehird> <Multi_key> <equal> <O> : "Ő" U0150 # LATIN CAPITAL LETTER O WITH DOUBLE ACUTE
05:40:12 <ehird> so =, which makes no sense
05:40:18 <ehird> still, compose is never any _worse_ than option
05:40:57 <ehird> and Compose / o makes far more sense than devoting Option+o to ø
05:41:08 <ehird> plus, Option+q is œ
05:41:18 <ehird> Compose o e only makes about, oh, ten times more sense
05:42:41 * ehird uses proper characters
05:43:04 <ehird> ⌥q is œ, ⎄ o e is œ
05:43:11 <ais523> I'm not sure how to type a composed oe with this keyboard mapping at all
05:43:27 <ehird> basically the OS X system, then
05:43:35 <ehird> which is better than windows but worse than compose
05:43:50 <ais523> altgr-punctuation mostly composes the punctuation
05:44:04 <ais523> although, with a random and weird key assignment, rather than the logical one
05:44:12 <ais523> e.g. altgr-; composes a '
05:45:16 <ehird> because ´'s mostly used in é in english, i guess
05:45:55 <ais523> and acute's the most common accent for an e altogether, I think
05:46:45 <ais523> because hardly anyone writes it like that
05:47:18 <ais523> even though it's correct
05:47:42 <ais523> I remember that a while back, I was talking how it's almost impossible to connect to most IRC networks without deviating from the relevant standards
05:47:45 <ais523> for one thing, you'd use the wrong port
05:48:05 <ehird> de jure standards are useless
05:48:20 <ehird> irc rfcs spec a protocol that happens to have the same name :)
05:49:42 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/9kjaf/i_am_an_exextreme_programmer_i_did_it_for_6_years/ ;; weirdest definition of extreme programming ever
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05:55:54 * Gregor now possesses +1 NICK OF AWESOME
05:56:14 -!- ehird has changed nick to gr.
05:56:23 <gr> I AM GREGOR R
05:56:35 <gr> Last seen 11 weeks ago!
05:56:42 <ais523> My surname is not Hurd.
05:56:44 <gr> Wonder if that's droppable.
05:56:52 <gr> So I can extort Gregor for it.
05:56:54 -!- gr has changed nick to e.
05:57:09 <e> Las seen 4 weeks ago!
05:57:11 -!- e has changed nick to ehird.
05:57:11 <Gregor> I'm quite happy with "Gregor"
05:57:15 <ehird> One day I shall have the nick e.
06:03:54 <ehird> http://imgur.com/6NO0J.png
06:03:58 * ehird disappears in a puff of logic
06:18:35 <ehird> Mehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
06:53:52 <ehird> hmm... there isn't much good CSS support in text mode browsers
06:54:04 <ehird> even elinks fails at any sort of layout or indeed anything beyond colours
07:02:17 <AnMaster> <ehird> I haven't seen anything like Erlang's lists-are-magically-strings in another language <-- char* in C? Also yeah it is just about how io:format() prints it given the ~w or ~p format. You can force print it as a list or as a string in either case
07:02:35 <ehird> char * isn't a string and it doesn't display as a string.
07:02:46 <ehird> You can write it out as bytes if you call functions specifically for that purpose.
07:02:56 <ehird> But it is not "a string", and there is no stringification in C.
07:06:02 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed. This is same. io:format's ~p format writes it out as a string if it seems to make sense
07:06:12 <ehird> No. This is not the same hting at all.
07:06:22 <ais523> char* doesn't intrinsically display as anything
07:06:25 <AnMaster> ehird, it is still a list internally, like char* idoesn't change
07:06:27 <ehird> One is the inspected, human-readable output of a REPL, one is dumping bytes.
07:06:38 <ais523> you can use %s to print it string-style, but ofc that's not the only way to print it
07:06:44 <ehird> Comparing them is either purposeful folly or astounding denseness.
07:06:45 <AnMaster> ais523, well, there is no "intrinsically" here either, except using the format ~p (or ~w)
07:06:55 <AnMaster> which tries to autoformat them in a nice way
07:06:55 <ehird> Yes, which is THE STANDARD WAY TO INSPECT AN OBJECT.
07:07:05 <ehird> And is USED by the REPL.
07:07:16 <AnMaster> of course you can use ~s to force one to be printed as a string for example
07:07:36 <ais523> a REPL printing ASCII-like things as strings might be useful; I know gdb always tries to print char* as a string, for instance
07:07:41 <ais523> escaping nonprintables
07:07:52 <ehird> not when those things are regular integer lists
07:07:55 <AnMaster> ehird, what about char* not being stringy hm, check how gdb shows them
07:07:59 <AnMaster> which is the standard way there
07:08:01 <ehird> or at least indistinguishable from them
07:08:25 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm really not interested in talking to you about this, any more than I am to a brick wall
07:08:45 <ais523> gprolog's weird, in that 'this is a string' and "this is an integer list taking the ASCII values of the relevant characters"
07:08:49 <ais523> and they're two different concepts
07:09:06 <ehird> That's not weird at all.
07:09:11 <ehird> 'foo' is not a string.
07:09:14 <ais523> there's an intlist-string casting function
07:09:23 <ais523> well, atoms and strings are indistinguishable in Prolog
07:09:24 <ehird> "foo" is a string.
07:09:28 <ehird> Yes, I know the terms differ,
07:09:38 <ais523> whereas an intlist is something quite different
07:09:39 <ehird> but I'm using standard terms to clarify what they *are*.
07:09:49 <ais523> most of the string-manipulation functions work on atoms
07:10:00 <ais523> although, gprolog has a limit to the number of atoms a program can use
07:10:06 <ais523> so I suppose you need lists for TCness
07:10:41 <ehird> Well, old Lisps used |ATOMS TO PRINT OUT TEXT TOO|.
07:11:13 * ehird 's mind is bludgeoned with the most awesome idea ever
07:11:14 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway the point is that erlang's ~p format (which is used by REPL indeed) will try to print anything in a nice way. This means it will even try to indent nicely if it goes multi-line for a tuple or such. And it tries to print lists that seems string-like (only printable chars and newline, plus possibly some other ones) as strings, while if it is not string like, it prints it like a [1,2,3] st
07:11:20 <fizzie> ais523: At least SWI-Prolog mixes in a third thing, which is a separate "string" data type; you can tell it to read doublequotes as strings instead of lists of integers, or to read `foo` as string, and there's atom_to_string and such what you'd expect.
07:11:20 <ehird> It's a decentralised purely functional package manager.
07:11:26 <ais523> actually, come to think of it, intlists don't need string-manipulation primitives
07:11:27 <ehird> This must be what a hangover feels like.
07:11:30 <ehird> Except intellectual.
07:11:33 <ais523> ehird: ok, that is a great idea
07:11:53 <ais523> fizzie: most versions of Prolog let you customize what the various quoting styles mean
07:11:58 <ais523> so my guess is, it isn't particularly standardised
07:12:11 <ais523> and they're all doing it like that for compatibility
07:12:24 <ehird> Latest packages direct from the source! A web of trust! Perfectly trustable rollbacks, upgrades! Great dependency handling! Automatic upgrades (with bad upgrades flagged by the web of trust, I guess)!
07:12:51 <ais523> you should be able to live-run updates without upgrading
07:12:59 <ais523> as in, run updates without installing them, live-CD style
07:13:00 <ehird> ais523: Sure, that's easy.
07:13:38 <ehird> I'm tempted to add the capability-security-hacked-up-by-using-a-separate-account-for-each-program, but that'd be (a) slow for short-running command line programs and (b) a bit too hacky and revolutionary to work without a bunch of futzing.
07:13:55 <AnMaster> ehird, a bit hard for someone knowing no one using the system to get into though
07:14:07 <ehird> Still, the unmodified idea on its own is almost enough to turn into zzo and make my own distribution for.
07:14:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Yeah, that's true; and I just realised that relying on it to flag good/bad updates is trying to make trustability technological, which as SSL demonstrates doesn't work.
07:14:33 <fizzie> And speaking of strings, still; Matlab does strings as vectors of small integers. But it does use the "char" element-data-type for those vectors, and then determines whether to print as string or as vector based on that.
07:14:45 <ehird> You can sneak a hole into Debian anyway, so it's not like it's any worse.
07:15:06 <ehird> and Windows/OS X users rarely upgrade to find a hole, at least I've never really heard of it happening to decent sotware
07:15:14 <ehird> (well, hole = malicious program)
07:15:34 <AnMaster> ehird, also it would be quite a pain to maintain for the distro maintainer, it seems likely that for large such webs of trust the trusted upgrades may diverge, and take a long time to reach everyone
07:15:48 <ais523> ehird: and there was that attempt to sneak a trojan into the kernel which was noticed
07:15:50 <ehird> The distro maintainer wouldn't do packages.
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07:15:59 <AnMaster> which would be kind of, err..., bad for critical security upgrades
07:16:05 <ehird> I said decentralised: software from the source. If you want a patched version, get it from the patcher.
07:16:20 <ehird> If the distro owners package stuff that the owners don't, get it from there.
07:16:31 <AnMaster> someone would still have to make some kind of package-y thing for the system
07:16:31 <ehird> Package search: google or something :P
07:16:36 <ehird> AnMaster: What do you mean?
07:16:52 <ehird> Of course there'd be a package format, there just wouldn't be a single location.
07:17:06 <ehird> You'd identify packages with a URI.
07:17:13 <AnMaster> ehird, right, but who would make the packages for, say, kernel, libc and so on?
07:17:25 <AnMaster> you don't expect upstream devs to do so I assume?
07:17:32 <ehird> Well, obviously the distro maintainers (unless Linus suddenly starts building packages).
07:17:51 <ehird> Well, just as you find debian/ directories in downloaded source packages, and sometimes generic linux binaries, I'd expect some upstreams to, yes.
07:17:55 <ehird> Assuming it took off, that is.
07:18:05 <ehird> I mean, there's no point fighting to get into a non-existent repository if you can just put up the file.
07:18:31 <AnMaster> ehird, would this be a binary or source based distro?
07:19:05 <ehird> I think that the way to do it would be to consider a binary a cached version of (buildPkg foo), if you see what I mean.
07:19:12 <AnMaster> also, how would the web of trust updates be shared? Some sort of p2p?
07:19:24 <ehird> AnMaster: I dropped the web of trust idea; I don't think it helps.
07:19:27 <ehird> But via HTTP or whatever, obviously.
07:19:36 <AnMaster> ehird, right, from a central location? :/
07:19:56 <ehird> Anyway, signing is useful for *installing* packages.
07:20:04 <ehird> Not to authenticate it's a certain person, but
07:20:15 <ehird> to authenticate that the updates you get come from the same person as the first version you installed
07:20:17 <ehird> (and nothing more)
07:20:29 <AnMaster> ehird, ah good, so everyone would have to poke holes in their firewalls, and the whole thing would be a pain for mobile users?
07:20:31 <ehird> that way to sneak a bad upgrade in, you'd need their GPG key + password
07:20:42 <AnMaster> mobile here = not same location all the time
07:20:49 <ehird> AnMaster: Firstly, there are certain things known as hosting services. Secondly, shut the fuck up, I dropped the idea.
07:21:01 <ehird> Web of trust could be done in a similar way to PGP key servers.
07:21:08 <ehird> But it's not useful, so I dropped it.
07:21:18 <AnMaster> then what is distributed about it?
07:21:26 <ehird> klgjsdfklgsdfjklgseior6gjusw90000hjgns what?
07:21:40 <ehird> ...because there is no package repository...
07:21:56 <AnMaster> but you don't pull from peers any longer
07:22:17 <ehird> Well, the web of trust could be useful maybe, but only as a guideline.
07:22:31 <ehird> That is, next to a person's name, a smiley face :) if they're considered trustable by people you trust, etc.
07:22:36 <ehird> However, that'll fail because people are lazy.
07:22:46 <ehird> I know I wouldn't bother marking people.
07:23:29 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm just considering that if you needs to connect to peers it would be hard to use for people like ais and me who are university are behind NAT with their laptops. And a lot of people don't run their systems 24h.
07:23:36 <ehird> ..................................
07:23:43 <AnMaster> but with central servers it would work better
07:23:47 <ehird> Why do you ignore me when I say I dropped the web of trust idea? Are you trying to be annoying?
07:23:51 <ehird> There's no central servers in my design either.
07:24:18 <ehird> I think you've entirely mixed up web of trust vs package sites.
07:24:28 <ehird> I dropped the web of trust crap. Okay?
07:24:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I was just explaining my reasoning against it. I wasn't bugging you about it.
07:24:43 <ehird> Okay, fine, you were just talking to me so I assumed so, quite obviously...
07:25:01 <ehird> Does anyone know how expensive creating a user/group is on linux?
07:25:17 <ais523> not very, I don't think
07:25:27 <ais523> although /etc/passwd probably uses a linear search by default
07:25:28 <AnMaster> hm aren't there a limited number of UIDs/GIDs?
07:25:45 <AnMaster> ais523, think it does yes, since there is no requirement that it is ordered.
07:25:58 <AnMaster> of course you can sort it using pwck -s
07:26:03 <ais523> AnMaster: there are library functions for reading /etc/passwd
07:26:13 <ehird> ais523: How many seconds to create a functional user/group in C code?
07:26:13 <ais523> and you're supposed to use those rather than reading the file
07:26:21 <ais523> so for all I know, they keep a hashed btree of the things in memory
07:26:26 <fizzie> ais523: I think you can bump that up to 2^32 or so nowadays; you can for pids.
07:26:31 <ais523> ehird: well under 1, I expect
07:26:34 <ehird> I guess I could make the users one-time, but that's less ... dynamic.
07:26:38 <ehird> ais523: 0.0x? 0.00x?
07:26:55 <fizzie> C.f. Documentation/highuid.txt in your kernel docs.
07:26:55 <AnMaster> ehird, oh you mean creating on the fly like Gregor did in EgoBot?
07:27:18 <AnMaster> ehird, not expensive iirc, it is just changing uid to some high reserved number
07:27:19 <ais523> you could benchmark and find out, I suppose
07:27:34 <ehird> ais523: no I can't, I don't have X11 working on Arch
07:27:50 <AnMaster> ais523, damn you beat me to it
07:28:39 <ehird> ais523: To have an environment comfortable enough to be worth rebooting into?
07:29:03 <ais523> oh, I didn't realise you needed a reboot
07:29:09 <ehird> I mean, I kinda want a decent web browser and some hawt terminal multiplexing action.
07:29:10 <ais523> I thought you still had infinity VMs lying around
07:29:24 <ehird> ais523: That's not going to give an accurate benchmark result...
07:29:34 <ais523> it could be close, surely?
07:29:36 <ehird> X11 didn't work in the VM either, heh.
07:29:40 <ais523> especially if you run on CPU time inside the simulation
07:29:51 <ehird> ais523: Well, I actually don't have one, so.
07:30:36 <ehird> I wonder why there isn't a non-X graphical server that can speak the X protocol.
07:30:40 <ehird> You know, one that doesn't suck.
07:31:23 <ais523> are there any non-dead forks of X with any momentum?
07:31:33 <ehird> I don't mean fork.
07:31:36 <ehird> ais523: but yes, Xorg.
07:31:45 <ehird> Forked from XFree86, which is probably a fork itself.
07:32:11 <ehird> I think we do have X-compatible experimental graphical servers, but come on. We should have started working on this shit in, like, the late 90s.
07:33:08 <ehird> (Its native protocol should just be a slightly cleaned up, perhaps faster and non-networked (use X11) version of the X protocol; anything too different makes X software feel like emulated legacy software, which would defeat the point.)
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07:34:55 <fizzie> There's X11.app, which is maybe non-dead, but I guess you can't really count that.
07:35:43 <ehird> One disadvantage of this system is that the canonical names of things are gonna be like /pkg/coreutils/7.6/bin/ls, and perhaps even more verbose due to "coreutils" being a name whereas we work with URIs.
07:35:53 <ehird> I'll have to think about how to make the real paths more lean.
07:37:02 <fizzie> XFast seems a bit dead; no SVN changes since 2008-08.
07:39:54 <fizzie> And there's that WeirdX Java server thing, from the Jsch people -- at http://www.jcraft.com/weirdx/ -- but I'm not very certain that's alive either.
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07:46:33 <ehird> Hmm, it'd actually be more like /home/ehird/.pkg/coreutils/7.6/bin/ls, which is even worse.
07:51:55 <ais523> /home/ehird/.pkg/http/org/gnu/coreutils/7.6/bin/ls maybe
07:52:15 <ehird> At that point I'd just use the actual URI -
07:52:25 <ais523> I did, just in directory structure form
07:52:51 <ehird> /home/ehird/.pkg/http/ftp.gnu.org/gnu/coreutils/7.6/bin/ls
07:52:59 <ehird> well, actually, probably more like
07:53:07 <ehird> http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/coreutils/
07:53:27 <ais523> oh come off it GNU, that's just a ridiculous URL
07:53:30 <ehird> /home/ehird/.pkg/http/ftp.gnu.org/gnu/coreutils/coreutils-7.6-packagemanagernamething/bin/ls
07:53:35 <ehird> ais523: no, it's very common
07:53:41 <ehird> ftp., as a subdomain, means "download repository"
07:53:51 <ais523> it can be both common /and/ ridiculous, IMO
07:53:59 <ais523> like misHungarian notation
07:54:06 <ehird> Anyway, /home/ehird/.pkg/http/ftp.gnu.org/gnu/coreutils/coreutils-7.6-packagemanagernamething/bin/ls of course assumes that GNU would make their own packages, which I doubt.
07:54:47 <ehird> It's more likely to be /home/ehird/.pkg/http/packages.awesome-linux.org/coreutils/7.6/bin/ls
07:55:11 <ehird> It's more likely to be /home/ehird/.pkg/http/packages.awesome-linux.org/coreutils/7.6.xyz/bin/ls
07:55:16 <ehird> where .xyz is the file extension
07:55:33 <ehird> Then, the URL for the package description file would be http://packages.awesome-linux.org/coreutils/7.6.xyz.
07:55:53 <ehird> The files themselves would likely be in http:/packages.awesome-linux.org/coreutils/7.6.tar.bz2 or something, but that doesn't matter.
07:55:57 <ehird> *The files themselves would likely be in http://packages.awesome-linux.org/coreutils/7.6.tar.bz2 or something, but that doesn't matter.
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07:56:09 <oklopol> can ie be made to lie it's ff
07:56:16 <ehird> oklopol: is that just a random thought
07:56:22 <ais523> IE allows extensions, after all
07:56:23 <ehird> or have you found the weirdest website ever
07:56:33 <ais523> I don't know how much control they have over the browser's behaviour
07:56:40 <ais523> ehird: say the website renders fine in IE8 and Firefox
07:56:47 <ais523> but it has hacks for IE6 that actually make it look worse in IE8
07:56:49 <ehird> he has IE8 doesn't he
07:56:54 <ais523> and it isn't checking the browser version number
07:57:01 <ais523> that seems plausible to me
07:57:01 <ehird> you mixed up your numbers
07:57:10 <ehird> you just worded it badly
07:57:11 <oklopol> it's the perfect browser apart from the fact every fucking unix retard just puts a YOU SHOULD USE FF I LIKE IT BETTAH <3 message on their page
07:57:14 <ais523> I mean, would render fine without the hacks
07:57:25 <ehird> most firefox advocates aren't unix users
07:57:37 <ehird> but hey, i was going to help you before you got all vitrolically hateful at me and my kin <3
07:57:49 <ais523> also, it's not even the case that all unix users advocate firefox
07:57:56 <oklopol> well sorry, but it's rather annoying to get that message every day.
07:57:59 <ais523> I use it for the extensions, but I think that, say, Epiphany has a better design
07:58:03 <ais523> just it needs a bit of polish
07:58:04 <ehird> ais523: to be fair, he said fucking unix retards
07:58:15 <fizzie> I just use it for the articles.
07:58:23 <oklopol> "fucking unix retards" isn't all that hateful :P
07:58:29 <ehird> perhaps all mentally handicapped unix users currently having sexual intercourse do put such messages on their page
07:58:51 <oklopol> yes let's say that's what i meant.
07:58:54 <ehird> oklopol: you could just download a better browser.
07:59:23 <ehird> Sure, Opera's fine.
07:59:41 <ais523> wow at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Internet_Explorer_extensions
07:59:46 * ais523 fights instinct to slap AfD tag on it
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08:00:05 <ais523> it's basically a list of third-party toolbars
08:00:10 <fizzie> Personally I think the Operaans somehow project a much more evangelical view of themselves.
08:00:20 <ehird> fizzie: yes, that's why I was amused :)
08:00:25 <oklopol> i just don't really feel like switching browsers just because some people think ie sucks
08:00:28 <oklopol> well, all people except me
08:00:29 <ehird> all Opera users want to tell you about how they love Opera
08:00:30 <ais523> nothing there gives the article a reason for existence, and I suspect it's NPOV
08:00:36 <ehird> and all the browsers are raelly much worse
08:00:40 <FireFly> ehird, I really looooooooove opera
08:00:48 <ais523> and it's basically a page for people to spam on
08:00:48 <ehird> FireFly: except, one problem
08:00:51 <ehird> opera is fucking shit
08:01:01 <FireFly> Well, I like it, but I'm fine if others don't
08:01:04 <ais523> hmm... opera comes up with all the great UI innovations
08:01:06 <ehird> even if it was good, it's not good enough to justify using non-free software with a rendering engine that nothing else uses
08:01:13 <ais523> and then other browsers steal them and do them better
08:01:14 <ehird> ais523: oh, but opera's UI is pretty bad
08:01:20 <ais523> ehird: yes, it's a paradox
08:01:20 <ehird> they just add everything and everyone else cherry-picks the good parts
08:01:33 <ais523> Opera is the Slash'EM of browsers?
08:02:20 <ehird> i love how opera's toolbar has the useless rewind/fast forward buttons, it's such a perfect example of its creeping featuritis (opera users: I know you use it. I know you use every feature. You do this so you can defend it. :P)
08:02:46 <FireFly> I use the fast-forward feature, but I've removed the button for it
08:02:58 <FireFly> Actually, you saw my UI a while ago, didn't you?
08:03:05 <ehird> Yes, although I've forgotten.
08:03:23 <ais523> is that like, guesses which page you plan to go to next and takes you there
08:03:24 <ehird> ais523: "keep pressing forwards until the domain changes"
08:03:29 <ehird> rewind: the reverse
08:03:40 <ehird> absolutely useless
08:03:42 <ais523> I like my version better
08:03:44 <FireFly> The fast-forward usually works well
08:03:54 <FireFly> For getting to the next page of stuff
08:04:19 <ehird> it only works if you have pages in the forward history...
08:04:30 <ehird> then they changed it
08:04:34 <FireFly> From what I've read, it looks for links matching certain patterns
08:04:43 <ais523> oh, so it /does/ do what I said
08:05:04 <FireFly> Well, only if you don't have anything more forwardy in the history
08:05:08 <ais523> why do these people keep sending me forms as Word documents with rows of dots to write on?
08:05:13 <ais523> htf am I supposed to reply to that?
08:05:20 <ais523> I've been replacing the dots with my answer, and underlining it
08:05:28 <ais523> to look sort-of like I was writing on the line
08:05:37 <ais523> but then how could I email it back?
08:05:52 <ais523> in the time I could find a scanner, I could physically go to them and talk to them face to face
08:05:54 <fizzie> That "intelligent 'next whatever in sequence'" thing certainly isn't new now; there was babble about it when it was introduced.
08:05:57 <ais523> hmm... there's a wooden table here
08:06:01 <ais523> maybe I could find a camera
08:06:53 <FireFly> I didn't say it's new, ehird said it's not useful
08:07:10 <FireFly> Or rather, he found it unuseful
08:07:28 <ehird> considering it never even did anything other than what seemed to be the domain thing, yep
08:07:39 <AnMaster> ehird, what about the framebuffer X server?
08:07:55 <fizzie> I just mean that if they changed from "only does domain-jumping for history-browsing" (which really sounds useless to me) to "also selects the 'next' link", they didn't do it especially recently.
08:07:57 <ehird> AnMaster: plz paste context next time. and it'll be slow.
08:08:18 <fizzie> There's a couple of firefox extensions that try to do the same thing, haven't tried them out.
08:08:53 <FireFly> Well, I agree on that, I can't remember fast-forward doing anything else
08:09:33 <ehird> AnMaster: what about it?
08:09:59 <AnMaster> ehird, you said you couldn't get X working under it?
08:10:10 <AnMaster> I was suggesting that you try the framebuffer X server
08:10:18 <ehird> i'd prefer to fix actual x.
08:11:00 <fizzie> I'm not sure how slow XDirectFB would be; possibly not completely useless (based on the hype, again). fbdev + vesafb is not really a winning combination, though.
08:11:16 <fizzie> (Where "fbdev" refers to the X.org fbdev driver.)
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08:12:22 <ehird> X complains it can't find that at startup, but goes on anyway. Installing it changes nothing apart from removing that.
08:12:31 <ehird> CBA to fuck around with making an xorg.conf
08:12:45 <AnMaster> ehird, did you make hal and dbus start then?
08:12:55 <ehird> hal, yes. doesn't hal start dbus?
08:12:56 <AnMaster> or maybe arch changed to devicekit thingy
08:13:10 <ehird> i think dbus was in the list too
08:13:28 <ehird> neither radeonhd nor ati work
08:13:32 <ehird> cba to try aur fglrx
08:14:19 <ais523> ATI have Linux binary drivers packaged with the graphics card nowadays, on CDs
08:14:28 <ais523> which is of course nearly useless in most scenarios where you'd want them
08:14:32 <ehird> FireFly: Works fine on Ubuntu, Debian, ...
08:14:41 <ehird> FireFly: The fault lies squarely with Arch.
08:14:43 <ais523> ehird: that's quite some ...
08:14:48 <ais523> given how similar Ubuntu and Debian are
08:14:50 <FireFly> I'm running Kubuntu, and I've sure had some crashes here and there
08:14:51 <ehird> ais523: cba to think of more
08:17:34 <AnMaster> ehird, what about the vesa driver?
08:18:02 <ehird> worked first time i think. but wrong resolution. also i want the proper drivers. also keyboard and mouse didn't work then
08:18:33 <AnMaster> ehird, keyboard and mouse would be different drivers. Did you get those to work under anything else?
08:19:01 <ehird> I installed them, but I can't test them.
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08:19:35 <AnMaster> <ehird> [0010]I installed them, but I can't test them.
08:19:56 <ehird> 00:19:01 <ehird> I installed them, but I can't test them.
08:19:57 <AnMaster> how this thing shows "not in font"
08:20:07 <AnMaster> ehird, yes the [0010] is there in your paste too
08:20:11 <AnMaster> there is some control code there
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08:28:44 <AnMaster> ais523, in TAEB what is a "TME chain"?
08:28:57 <ais523> a set of TMEs that point to each other until they reach the root TME
08:29:04 <AnMaster> ais523, well, what is a TME then
08:29:06 <ais523> basically, it extracts routes from the routing map
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08:29:13 <ais523> and a TME is a Tactical Map Entry
08:29:18 <ais523> it represents one movement
08:29:28 <ais523> in a particular location, at a particular time
08:29:33 <AnMaster> ais523, yes I found that, just didn't saw it mentioned with TME in the same place
08:32:30 <AnMaster> ais523, does TAEB track info about currently out of sight monsters? Like, it just went up stairs and below there is a black dragon next to the stairs, it will calculate with that if it decides to go down again?
08:32:44 <AnMaster> or, even on same level, in a throne room or such
08:32:46 <ais523> it's a major deficiency in the framework as-is
08:33:03 <AnMaster> since those aren't likely to move around if they are sleeping
08:33:29 <AnMaster> ais523, does it has pre-made maps for fixed levels that don't change? Such as valley of dead, the castle and such
08:33:43 <ais523> although there are Sokoban spoilers
08:34:07 <AnMaster> ais523, and for the mines it would be useful too, spotting what type of mines end based on layout around the stairs and such
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08:34:28 <ais523> but it's not a high priority right now; submit framework patches if you're interested
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08:37:01 <AnMaster> # We hates nymphs <-- who doesn't?
08:37:12 <AnMaster> ais523, what does TAEB do if it finds a scroll of genocide?
08:37:18 <AnMaster> assuming it isn't cursed that is
08:37:19 <ais523> nothing, it's a framework
08:37:25 <ais523> and TAEB::AI::Planar doesn't mess with scrolls yet
08:37:26 <AnMaster> ais523, well, what does Planar do then
08:38:22 <AnMaster> ais523, I have been thinking about that myself, one one hand it is better to save it, until you run into a bad monster (since you can't know which one you will run into first), on the other hand, messages like "one of your scrolls of genocide catch fire" really sucks
08:38:42 <ais523> ?oGeno isn't amazingly useful
08:38:56 <ais523> and I think you're approaching the problem of NetHack AIs from the wrong direction entirely
08:39:08 <ais523> as in, you need the simple stuff working before you mess with specific items
08:39:11 <AnMaster> ais523, sure is when you run into a master lich, or master mind flayer
08:39:22 <ais523> AnMaster: you burn an Elbereth
08:39:34 <ais523> or even dust one, if you have enough notice
08:39:55 <AnMaster> right, dust ones get messed out though easily
08:40:03 <ais523> you write more than once
08:40:17 <ais523> bots have no trouble stacking up 30 Elbereths on a square, they don't run out of patience
08:40:31 <AnMaster> ais523, it knows about the E word?
08:40:54 <AnMaster> oh btw, does write in the dust work on ice?
08:40:56 <ais523> yes for some purposes, not for others
08:41:00 <ais523> and yes, you write in the frost
08:41:21 <AnMaster> you don't get frost on ice usually, snow maybe, but not frost
08:50:31 <oklopol> i win because i already am at uni
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08:51:51 <fizzie> fi:uni == en:dream, the abbreviation, especially uncapitalized, always makes me smile.
08:52:36 <oklopol> every time i see it i dance a little
08:53:18 <fizzie> Should back up the IMAP folders for the school account before some overzealous administrator goes and wipes them out, even though I'm still employed there and all.
08:55:00 <ehird> anyway, I'd work on that package manager, but I'd have to make packages
08:55:04 <ehird> and that'd be tedious
08:56:00 <fizzie> "Demuxer info Name changed to Summertime18%"; stared at that for a bit thinking "funny name", but the 18% was just leftovers from I guess mplayer's cache-fill-percentage or something.
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09:26:33 <ehird> http://www.garfieldasgarfield.com/
09:37:59 <Deewiant> http://kecy.roumen.cz/roumingShow.php?file=cat_found.jpg
09:44:12 <ehird> Deewiant: that's not even the first i've seen of that type, so that one is probably a copycat made just to photo it
09:44:18 <ehird> the one i saw was black and white
09:44:31 <Deewiant> Yes, I have seen many such as well.
09:44:39 <Deewiant> I've also seen your link two months ago.
10:06:13 <ehird> http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q1/MiffTheFox/aspnet.png
10:10:18 <Deewiant> http://healthbase.netbase.com/#Nazis&Pros
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10:41:48 <ehird> I'd give up getting Arch to work, except the alternative is Debian and I want something that isn't 80% modified code...
10:41:58 <ehird> Admittedly I haven't done anything but whine, but.
10:49:52 <AnMaster> ais523, any idea if it is defined which sort of buffering will be used by something just fopen()ed?
10:50:09 <ais523> but I can't remember where
10:50:16 <ais523> failing that, probably POSIX
10:50:22 <AnMaster> couldn't find it in man page at least
10:50:44 <Deewiant> "When opened, a stream is fully buffered if and only if it can be deter‐
10:50:45 <Deewiant> mined not to refer to an interactive device."
10:52:12 <AnMaster> what package provides 3p on ubuntu?
10:52:50 * ehird wonders why arch has a bunch of dependencies on packages it doesn't need... seems to want to cruft up a system :)
10:52:52 <ais523> not sure, I don't have it
10:55:02 <fizzie> At least that's where fopen.3posix.gz is.
10:56:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is the arcane apt-foo command to find that?
10:56:54 <ais523> it's dpkg that tells you where something is
10:57:32 <fizzie> I just used packages.ubuntu.com; I actually doubt there's a list of files available locally for not-installed packages.
10:57:52 <fizzie> Besides, this is an OS X system I'm using here.
10:58:05 <ais523> fizzie: yes, the list's only for already-existing packages
10:58:12 <ais523> well, already-installed
10:59:00 <fizzie> Anyway, "dpkg-query -S /path/to/file" generally tells you which package was reponsible for installing a file. Doesn't help when you haven't got the file you're looking for.
10:59:09 <ehird> apt-cache is to query the cached package database, apt-get is to perform changing actions on packages
10:59:16 <ehird> well, the installed package set, anyway
10:59:52 <ais523> and dpkg tells you about things that are independent of repos
10:59:54 <ehird> so apt-cache search searches the cached package database, apt-get remove removes a package from the installed set.
11:00:18 <ehird> apt-cache show shows the information of a package in the cached package database, etc
11:00:25 <ais523> apt-cache: tell me about the repo; apt-get: do something that makes changes using the repo; dpkg: do something that doesn't care about the repo
11:00:33 <ais523> I think we're agreeing
11:01:07 <ehird> it's just that apt is really good for a centralised package manager, so it annoys me when people complain about it...
11:01:32 <ehird> Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa
11:01:33 <ehird> 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
11:01:34 <ehird> 24 25 26 27 28 29 30
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11:03:41 <ehird> hmm... there's blood under my nail
11:03:44 <ehird> hope it doesn't leak out
11:03:57 <fizzie> Psst: there's blood INSIDE you, too.
11:03:58 <Deewiant> I was going to test 09-1752 in Mycology's DATE tests but decided I'm not that anal
11:05:54 <ehird> are you another anal instead?
11:07:29 <ehird> Maybe I'll install Arch in VM.
11:07:41 <ehird> Much more satisfying to get it working properly.
11:09:50 <ehird> otoh i have not the patiene to go through base and remove the crap that annoys me. bleah.
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11:32:45 <ehird> Well, X starts with radeonhd if I do "sudo X" manually and twm, xclock run.
11:32:50 <ehird> xterm still fucks up, sigh.
11:34:09 <ehird> Anyway, hi. Console mode has oppressively large fonts.
11:35:11 <ehird> #archlinux in summary:
11:35:23 <ehird> <me> As detailed description of the problem as I can think of.
11:35:25 <Deewiant> Since you're not in the mood for guessing: Mathematica
11:35:30 <ehird> <other> You didn't give any info.
11:35:42 <ehird> <me> Can you clarify as to what sort of information I should give?
11:35:49 <ehird> * deafening silence
11:36:01 <ais523> Deewiant: what does the % do?
11:36:09 <ais523> I can figure the rest of it, I think
11:36:31 <ais523> "raise all elements of the previous result to the 4th power"
11:37:04 <ehird> # = arg1, ^4 = obvs power, & postfix = lambda, /@ = map, % = prev
11:37:14 <ehird> {x^4} map previous
11:37:34 <ehird> it's just like J, except without the interesting paradigm or concise code
11:37:36 <ais523> ofc, it would be simpler in Underlambda
11:37:45 <ais523> which is saying something
11:38:17 <fizzie> It would be "ans.^4" in Matlab, but that's rather a special case of the elementwise-exponentiation operator.
11:38:45 <ais523> (4^)e I think in Underlambda
11:38:59 <ais523> and in Haskell, rather similar but with a different notation
11:39:21 <ehird> sigh, predictably the person who whined at me has not said a peep since
11:39:25 <ehird> hit and run complainer
11:39:42 <fizzie> Misread "hit-and-run compiler".
11:39:54 <ehird> that would be gcc. :P
11:40:13 <fizzie> "Oh god, what happened here?!" "GCC."
11:41:17 <ehird> i feel that way often.
11:41:27 <ehird> ok, that's a lie, but i would if i was in the habit of developing in c
11:41:43 <ehird> but i'm not into the whole masochism thing any more, you know?
11:43:00 <ehird> looks like you guys get to debug my system!
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11:43:28 <ehird> not that I expect anyone to know, google certainly didn't
11:43:48 <ehird> I get BadAlloc (insufficient resources for operation) while doing X_OpenFont in xterm, without it popping up any window
11:44:03 <ehird> also, xedit immediately bus errors before doing squat.
11:44:10 <ehird> i have no doubt there are other issues. wtf.
11:46:59 <ehird> um, the stock X text editor.
11:47:09 <ehird> oh, I forgot: twm works fine
11:47:23 <ehird> it can manage as many xclocks as i want, because that works.
11:48:10 <ehird> but i'll try xterm in gdb
11:48:56 <ehird> can't read symbols from libxcb
11:53:18 <ais523> I suppose clocking the processor by hand would be too slow
11:53:23 <ais523> and you might not have a notated debugging dump
11:53:46 <ehird> i had the truncated thing with xkb or something else too. i wonder what the hell it is.
11:55:36 <ehird> ... but really, this is a popular consumer machine with relatively standard hardware once you've booted up
11:55:51 <ehird> the fact that I'm having to do this shit doesn't reflect well on arch's polish level
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11:58:53 <ehird> i can't even start to think about how i'd debug such an odd problem
11:59:14 <Deewiant> strace, see if anything weird fails
12:01:25 <Deewiant> X_OpenFont isn't a system call
12:03:30 <Deewiant> I'd start by reinstalling everything font-related, something might just have been corrupted
12:03:46 <ehird> The resulting file is so long I have no idea wher to look.
12:04:02 <ehird> It's looking at icon files and finding they don't exist at this point.
12:04:10 <ehird> I don't know why it is doing that. It is xterm.
12:04:14 <Deewiant> grep for where it prints BadAlloc and see if anything failed near that.
12:05:03 <ehird> That's at the end. And the answer is yes, but I don't know what the hell it is because it's all buried in a sea of random crap involving \0 a lot and font names.
12:05:23 <ehird> It's trying to read something from FD 3 and getting resource temporarily unavailable.
12:05:47 <ehird> It opens /dev/ptmx right before that.
12:06:11 <ehird> So, uh, I know what's failing, except I have no idea what the hell /dev/ptmx is or why this is happening.
12:06:45 <ehird> So it's trying to write something about fonts to a pseudoterminal and failing.
12:06:55 <ehird> I don't have a clue.
12:07:21 <ehird> Okay, it ... writevs... to it with something about the fonts and...
12:07:31 <ehird> ...I really don't know. This is hopeless. I'll try xedit.
12:07:55 <ehird> EFAULT bad address on the exec() line that starts up xedit.
12:09:25 <ehird> Googling is bringing up absolutely nothing.
12:10:32 <Deewiant> I found http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:riZzgIDtKTIJ:forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-511364-start-0.html+x_openfont+badalloc&cd=16&hl=en&ct=clnk quite quickly
12:10:44 <Deewiant> But it just says that he rebuilt everything and then it worked.
12:11:22 <ehird> Windows: Turn it off and on again.
12:11:31 <ehird> Gentoo: Rebuild world again.
12:11:49 <ehird> Anyway, I can't copy-paste on the console :-(
12:11:53 <ehird> Can you make a tinyurl?
12:14:54 <ehird> Is it possible to purge pacman of downloaded files for a group?
12:14:58 <ehird> Would like it to download X again...
12:15:05 <fizzie> Few weeks ago we were in a bus at the terminal station; time came for the bus to leave, it moved a dozen centimetres and prompty hung up.
12:15:07 <fizzie> So the bus driver shouted to passengers that it's refusing to switch gears, and he's going to try turning it off and on again; he did that, and after the bus was rebooted it again worked just fine.
12:15:35 <fizzie> Must be one aspect of that "ubiquitous computing" thing, bringing the reboot-troubleshooting to the real world too.
12:17:43 <Deewiant> pacman -Scc cleans the whole cache
12:18:19 <ehird> It is probably fruitless; I can remove the top-level X packages but not easily their dependencies.
12:18:22 <Deewiant> pacman -Syy X might force a redownload, not sure
12:18:55 <ehird> Of every single relevant dependency? I didn't know they were putting strong AI in package managers these days.
12:20:25 <ehird> xorg-foo depends on libxbutt depends on libxblah which contains the problem.
12:20:33 <ehird> pacman -R xorg doesn't remove libxblah, so it stays.
12:21:00 <ehird> Yeah; reinstalled the top-level xorg packages, no damn change.
12:22:57 <ais523> package managers have an Rss feed nowadays?
12:24:19 <Deewiant> Maybe you had some wrong-bittiness stuff somewhere or something.
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12:26:45 <ehird> hello from irssi from xterm from twm from black background
12:26:57 <ehird> from X11 from startx from bash from login
12:27:18 <fizzie> from your mom. Wait, that's just a boring true statement.
12:27:37 <ehird> Yeah, my mom wrote login.
12:27:54 <ais523> and your grandma wrote grub
12:28:09 <ehird> My great grandmother is Linus Torvalds.
12:28:30 <ehird> So, I guess I should install yaourt.
12:28:42 <ehird> Anyone know of any good linux webkit browsers
12:29:06 <ehird> I guess I could try that new-fangled uzbl thing all the Arch kids are raving about.
12:29:35 <ehird> Oh, but look, it's in AUR. So I need to install yaourt.
12:29:46 <ehird> That program with the annoying policy of calling sudo for you.
12:30:27 <ehird> It builds packages from AUR for you, and then installs them with pacman.
12:30:39 <Deewiant> There are other AUR-builders, I think.
12:30:41 <ehird> It calls sudo for you so that you don't build packages at root.
12:30:56 <ehird> Still, an administrative command without sudo in front feels wrong; can't it drop privileges for that part?
12:31:24 <Deewiant> http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/AUR_Helpers
12:32:23 <ehird> I have a worrying feeling that 90% of those are look-I-wrote-a-short-unworking-script-it's-officially-a-project-now things.
12:33:15 <ehird> The default xterm font is so horribly small.
12:34:41 <ehird> Heh, I can't use pacman-color because it requires a pacman 0.1 versions older.
12:36:31 <ehird> Ohkayy, uzbl isn't in AUR either, so yaourt tells me in unreadable yellow-on-white.
12:36:40 <ehird> I'll just install, uh, what are you hip kids using?
12:37:33 <ehird> Maybe Arora. Arora's good, isn't it? Supposed to be, at least.
12:38:18 <ehird> Deewiant: Powerpill does sure spew a lot about how it's making your download ohso-fast.
12:38:38 <Deewiant> Well, it's noticeable for me since my local mirror can't handle my bandwidth.
12:38:39 <ehird> 963kiB/s. That's the highest my connection's ever reached.
12:39:09 <ehird> "I will pummel you with my bandwidth-shaped residential connection, puny server!"
12:39:38 <ehird> Wait wait WAIT is that qt 3?
12:39:43 <ehird> If that is qt 3 that is so not cool man.
12:39:58 <ais523> heh, AnMaster's a KDE 3 fan, isn't he?
12:39:59 <ehird> It just looks like 3 by default.
12:40:12 <ais523> and KDE and Qt version numbers match IIRC
12:40:15 <ehird> It looks acceptable, anyway.
12:40:30 <ehird> That font is actually, I feel bad saying this, but I'll be honest, that font looks damn good unantialiased.
12:40:39 <ehird> I think it's bitmap helvetica or whatever.
12:41:27 <ehird> Okay, Arora is fast and stuff.
12:41:35 <ehird> The controls are a bit ugly.
12:41:53 <ehird> Also some links aren't underlined.
12:43:33 <ehird> If this no-antialiasing-until-selecting bug on some pages were fixed this would bef ine.
12:44:16 <ehird> Deewiant: what's that thing to remove and all unused dependencies btw?
12:44:20 <ehird> that you said before
12:44:27 <ehird> No, for one package
12:44:47 <Deewiant> I don't think I said that before since I'm not sure how to do that :-P
12:45:12 <Deewiant> pacman -Rss removes xorg and all of its dependencies, including explicitly installed ones
12:45:39 <ais523> ugh, we seem to have a new spambot
12:45:47 <ais523> it's just spamming "doors.txt;10;15"
12:45:49 <ehird> wonder if powerpill has a ... uh ... thingy
12:45:53 <ais523> with nonsense edit summaries
12:45:53 <Deewiant> pacman -Rs would remove the unneeded ones only, I think
12:46:12 <ehird> I need to install urxvt and set the background black.
12:46:16 <ehird> So much stuff assumes it's black..
12:46:21 <ehird> Also a bigger font.
12:46:29 <ehird> Also, um, soemthing that isn't twm. Would be nice.
12:46:50 <ehird> If by > you mean <.
12:46:59 <Deewiant> twm + xedit is all you need in an X system
12:47:08 <ehird> Also wtf is it with powerpill going to a crawl every now and then?
12:47:15 <ehird> It's been from 0B to 4kiB recently.
12:47:15 <Deewiant> And xeyes to know where your pointer is
12:47:51 <Deewiant> It tends to slow down at the end when it's only downloading from one mirror or so
12:47:58 <Deewiant> And that mirror is a slow one.
12:48:20 <Deewiant> At least, that's what I think it is.
12:49:15 <ehird> Well you can't customize Midori's toolbar.
12:49:22 <ehird> Shouldn't really have expected more of a GTK app :-P
12:49:59 <ehird> Also the interface font is irritatingly just big enough to be ugly.
12:50:32 <ehird> Yeah, this is just way too ugly, I'm installing that whateveritis that makes gtk stuf fuse the qt theme.
12:51:07 <Deewiant> GTK fuses with the Qt theme creating QtK
12:51:33 <ehird> WTF, Midori has an Opera-style speed dial.
12:51:43 <ehird> And a whole bunch of useless preferences; is this meant to be simple?
12:52:22 <ehird> "Qt won't apply QGtkStyle correctly if GTK is using the GTK-QT-Engine."
12:52:32 <ehird> This clearly ignores the large segment of users who would like all interface elements to be fractal.
12:52:58 <ehird> Sweet, gtk-qt-engine pulled in both gnome and kde stuff
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12:54:35 <ehird> Deewiant: How does powerpill get speeds >900kiB/s on my connection which never gets them
12:55:01 <Deewiant> It downloads from multiple servers which all upload at >900KiB/s
12:55:19 <ehird> *kiB, you anti-SI freak.
12:55:33 <Deewiant> k is kilo, Ki is kibi, there is no ki.
12:55:41 <ehird> Hey, gtk-qt-engine apps are uglier than Raleigh.
12:55:43 <ehird> Quite an achievement.
12:55:56 * ehird obliterates that and midori, asks you for the remove-unused thing
12:56:13 <ehird> Deewiant: Also, i is a suffix on prefixes that changes them from binary to decimal.
12:56:22 <ehird> kis = 1024 seconds. kiB = 1024 bytes.
12:56:42 <ehird> So what was that removey thing?
12:56:48 <Deewiant> Since when? And since when is k binary?
12:57:08 <ehird> k isn't binary; that's why you suffix it with i.
12:57:09 <ais523> it's the i that's binary
12:57:10 <fizzie> Well, IEC says the prefix for kibi is "Ki", I'd trust them over an ehird any day of the week.
12:57:15 <ehird> k = 1000. ki = 1024.
12:57:18 <ehird> fizzie: My method is more consistent.
12:57:28 <Deewiant> ehird: "changes them from binary to decimal"
12:57:31 <ehird> It's a simple modification of SI: the suffix i after a prefix makes it binary.
12:57:34 <fizzie> Your more consistent, more logical method is also more nonstandard.
12:57:36 <ehird> Deewiant: Well, flip that.
12:57:52 <ehird> fizzie: But SI is mostly consistent and logical, so let's go with my version, that keeps within its spirit.
12:59:40 * ehird ponders whether he should ever ever ever remove history.
12:59:45 <ehird> It's history, after all!
13:00:12 <ehird> "Use the default search engine as fallback when the URL given by the user is invalid"
13:00:59 <ehird> Deewiant: Why noooo
13:01:18 <ehird> Ugh wtf Arora, Arial 16 as the default font? Courier New 16 as the fixed width?
13:01:39 <ehird> Would be nice if the bitmap Helvetica sizes >9 were as pretty.
13:01:45 <ehird> Though 12 is pretty decent.
13:01:51 <Deewiant> Typically it means I've typoed a bookmark-keyword and a google search for "ge foobar" when I tried to do a google image search for "foobar" isn't that helpful
13:02:03 <ehird> I don't have bookmark keywods.
13:03:20 <ehird> Argh I forgot about that arora bug
13:05:14 <ehird> Argh, it's really fucking annoing the missing underlines
13:07:03 <ehird> Deewiant: so does powerpill really download from 40-odd servers at once?
13:07:17 <Deewiant> I don't know about 40-odd, but more than one certainly
13:08:17 <ehird> Wow, I wrote an .Xresources file for black background, white foreground and no scrollbar in URxvt, merged it, and ran urxvt without looking up a single thing.
13:08:30 <ehird> I conclude that X resources aren't exceedingly crappy as an interface.
13:09:27 <ehird> I'm actually disappointed in myeslf for liking a Qt interface with the default, KDE 3-style widgets and unantialiased bitmap fonts :-P
13:10:03 <fizzie> Your disappointment is really fruuging up your spelling skills.
13:10:28 <ehird> No, that's this keyboard.
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13:10:57 <ehird> Now with 100% more urxvt!
13:12:53 <Deewiant> Run stuff in screen so you don't have to restart it all
13:13:20 <ehird> Extreme apathy dictates
13:13:41 <Deewiant> Or use cryopid and see how that works out
13:16:31 <ehird> holy fuck, xfontsel has the most confusing UI ever
13:18:51 <ehird> You know what's funny?
13:19:00 <ehird> The dark blue that ls uses by default is unreadable on black terminals.
13:19:03 <ehird> irssi is unreadable on white terminals.
13:19:07 <ehird> I'm not fucking using a gray terminal.
13:19:30 <fizzie> Just twiddle in some better RGB values for the colors.
13:19:49 <fizzie> I'm not sure xfontsel is that much more confusing than those X font descriptor strings inherently.
13:20:18 * ehird wonders why he can't set the urxvt font in .Xres-- would help to merge, wouldn't it.
13:21:16 <ehird> *Rxvt.background: black
13:21:16 <ehird> *Rxvt.foreground: white
13:21:16 <ehird> *Rxvt.scrollBar: none
13:21:16 <ehird> *Rxvt.font: -misc-fixed-*-*-normal-*-15-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
13:21:16 <ehird> *Rxvt.color12: #A0A0FF
13:21:26 <ehird> thanks for the color12 line
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13:27:56 <ehird> alas, I can't find a way to instruct arora that middle click should open a new window
13:28:02 <ehird> and it still has that underline problem...
13:28:09 <ehird> I'll try chromium, see what it's like on linux these days
13:31:38 <ehird> [ehird@ding ~]$ chromium-browser
13:31:39 <ehird> [11573:11573:3983975350:FATAL:/b/slave/chromium-rel-linux-64/build/src/app/gfx/font_skia.cc(90)] Check failed: tf. Could not find font: Helvetica
13:31:42 <ehird> /usr/bin/chromium-browser: line 4: 11573 Trace/breakpoint trap ./chrome --enable-greasemonkey --enable-user-scripts "$@"
13:33:03 <ehird> # Man is much better than us at figuring this out
13:33:07 <ehird> what's that supposed to mean?
13:33:14 <ehird> it sure can't find the pages in /usr/local/man
13:35:16 <ehird> looks like a bloated piece of crap!
13:35:36 <ehird> man_db.conf nowadays
13:35:56 <ehird> but it should handle it if i can get shit in $PATH.
13:36:46 <ehird> I'm getting flickering artifacts on my screen. I hope that isn't radeonhd.
13:39:26 <ehird> but it probably is.
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22:37:18 * Asztal sulks at C# not having typedef >:|
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