00:01:01 <oerjan> omniscience + slight speech error. clear signs of evil overlordness
00:02:18 <Ilari> Anyway... I'm sure some states that have or have had biological weapons program have developed some real nice stuff in practice.
00:04:18 <Ilari> Regarding fat... Any really nice "healthy eating" propaganda videos shown in school? :-)
00:04:47 <oerjan> ehird: hey you redid my beautiful subpage move, you scoundrel
00:05:04 <ehird> oerjan: yah, because subpages aren't enabled on the wiki
00:05:20 <ehird> and thus SNUSP/Extensions reads simply as that in English; i.e. "SNUSP or Extensions", which makes no sense.
00:05:42 <oerjan> i've seen pages named that way before, i had no idea they were anything special but i just tried to follow some tradition
00:05:55 <ehird> probably by noobs :P
00:06:07 <oerjan> of course wikipedia doesn't use / much either
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00:06:17 <ehird> in mediawiki if you enable subpages a grey, small, slightly indented link to the parent page appears below the title
00:06:23 <oerjan> lots of "History of bla bla bla " pages, e.g.
00:06:23 <ehird> i.e., giving them semantic meaning
00:06:26 <ehird> but it isn't neabled here
00:06:42 <ehird> oerjan: probably because hierarchies suck for organising.
00:06:43 <oerjan> lots of things aren't enabled :(
00:07:35 <ehird> the esolangs wiki is pretty sad... arbitrary Graue policies, old MediaWiki, spam filter issues, lots of stuff disabled...
00:09:06 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rail_transport_in_India is one that comes to mind
00:09:28 <oerjan> that essentially _is_ hierarchical, just with words
00:09:43 <ehird> no, it's more fluid
00:10:00 <ehird> "History of Bar" where bar is an indian company could go in one of two places:
00:10:13 <ehird> or even, for a huge history section
00:10:23 <ehird> using words, you can simply use a phrase
00:10:33 <ehird> which eliminates the forced hierarchy
00:10:44 <oerjan> heh it's part of a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rail_transport_by_country series
00:10:47 <ehird> i mean, that thing could be Rail transport/History/India
00:10:51 <ehird> or History/India/Rail transport
00:10:55 <ehird> or India/Rail transport/History
00:10:59 <ehird> or India/History/Rail transport
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06:41:05 <immibis> Is it possible to combine XOR and NOT gates to make an AND gate?
06:41:53 <oerjan> NOT and XOR are both linear gates mod 2, you cannot get anything which isn't from that
06:42:37 <oerjan> AND-NOT? you mean NAND or NOR? if so yes, each of those can get everything and they are the only 2 to 1 gates which can
06:43:19 <immibis> AND-NOT = (A and (not B)) although i realize that either requires or implies AND to be possible.
06:43:50 <oerjan> A and (not B) is dual to A if B
06:44:38 <oerjan> if A then B = (not A) or B
06:45:44 <oerjan> there is actually a theory of what you can compose from given gates, known as post classes, i investigated that for an article which never got published
06:46:34 <oerjan> it's a somewhat complicated but very pretty theory
06:47:23 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post's_lattice
06:47:45 <oerjan> i don't recognize the notation for each class in wp though
06:50:22 <oerjan> A and (not B) is that T_0^infinity, i think
06:51:31 <oerjan> ah yes A and (not B) = not (if A then B), so that overstriked ->
06:52:54 <oerjan> XOR and NOT is what wp calls the class A
06:56:04 <oerjan> (except it uses equivalence and 0 for the base)
06:56:12 <oerjan> but i think that's equivalent
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10:03:28 <fizzie> "We hope make this a night that you want to forget but your colleagues will remind you of for the rest of your life." -- from the recently emailed note about the combi-Christmas-party for the three computer-science-related departments here.
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13:54:30 <ehird> so, wow, Ubuntu sucks at hibernation
13:54:49 <ehird> it takes about 30-45 seconds to hibernate, and about two minutes to go from grub to the previous state
13:56:49 <ehird> http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/23/intel-unveils-light-peak-10gbps-optical-interconnect-for-mobile/
14:30:05 <ehird> [[I act to mitigate, redesign, and occasionally destroy the offerings of users who think that a particular "breakthrough" or "notable idea" deserves more consideration than it has gotten in the academic world. Such grandstanding is forbidden by a variety of Wikipedia policies and guidelines (WP:V, WP:SOAP, WP:NOR, WP:FRINGE, WP:WEIGHT, WP:NOT, and WP:REDFLAG to name just a few). Wikipedia is inherently a non-innovative reference work: it stifles creativity
14:30:06 <ehird> and free-thought. If Wikipedia had been around at the time of Galileo, his ideas would have been subject to my incisive commentary and editorial braggadocio -- even if I agreed with him. I am a status quo promoter. NPOV-PUSHER.]]
14:30:18 <ehird> you'd think there'd be a way of explaining all that without sounding like a fascist dick.
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16:52:42 * ehird upgrades to Karmic Koala alpha
16:52:53 <ehird> What fun is Ubuntu without instability?!?!?!
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17:34:54 <ehird> Ubuntu upgrader, are you really removing Bitstream Vera?
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19:02:59 <ehird> My condensed impression of Ubutnu 9.10 "Karmic Koala" alpha 6: Hey, this is kinda cool. The bugs can probably be ironed out in three or four months, say, and this'll be a really polished new release. ...What do you mean, it's coming out next month?
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19:07:16 <fizzie> "Karma Koalamon", wasn't that some sort of old hit song.
19:08:13 <ehird> It certainly doesn't feel like this OS has been maturing for 26 years.
19:09:20 <ehird> Anyhow, I have discovered yet another form of joy only known to ridiculous programmers.
19:09:25 <ehird> The joy of unexpected generality!
19:10:16 <ehird> You have an idea for one specific thing; a little bit of polish or whatever, a little bit of code to bring some stuff together. Later, you think "oh. actually, we could do (big)N things this way". Yay, now your job is harder!
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19:24:52 <ehird> Q: Where is the fastest Ubuntu mirror for my connection located?
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20:10:14 <ehird> !bf ++++++++++>+.<.>.
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20:18:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm are you good at latex?
20:18:43 <fizzie> I guess I've written a fair bit of it, but I'm certainly no LaTeX guru.
20:20:05 <AnMaster> I have an issue with equations. Basically, is there any "better" way than \begin{cases} ... \end{cases} to write a system of equations. After all cases is for two column multi-case definitions
20:20:26 <AnMaster> for equation systems it works if you leave the second column empty
20:20:45 <Deewiant> I typically use \begin{align*} for simple cases
20:21:08 <AnMaster> hm how does that work? Also what is "simple" here?
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20:23:00 <Deewiant> "simple" is the kind of stuff where I don't feel the need for cases or array or the like.
20:23:09 <fizzie> Yes, I've used align too.
20:24:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how do you add the one sided { for that though?
20:25:12 <Deewiant> My answer would be "you don't", but maybe fizzie has a better one.
20:25:59 <fizzie> No, actually, that's my answer too. I haven't really used the one-sided { except for very cases-friendly things.
20:26:38 <fizzie> If you don't want the two-column cases stuff, you could possibly use array instead.
20:28:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, well, leaving the second column empty still looks odd when you have stuff like {blah <=> {blahblah (hope this ASCII-isation is readable)
20:28:59 <AnMaster> since it seems to leave some space for it
20:29:11 <AnMaster> thus abusing cases doesn't work well
20:29:15 <fizzie> Maybe a single-column array, then.
20:30:34 <fizzie> I think I've also done something like \begin{array}{rcl} foo &=& bar \\ baz &=& quux \end{array} when I've needed something align-like but as a subpart of a larger math mode piece. (Though that needs some manual whitespace here and there unlike the amslatex 'align'; it's possible they provide something for this purpose too, though.)
20:32:09 <fizzie> Hmm, yes, amslatex seems to have an "aligned" environment, which can be used as a component like that.
20:32:22 <fizzie> So you can stick {s around it.
20:33:17 <Deewiant> Sounds familiar; maybe I've used that sometimes.
20:33:24 <fizzie> So something like \left\{ \begin{aligned} x &= foo \\ y &= bar \end{aligned} \right. should give you a nicely typeset "{ x = foo, y = bar" equation system with the =s aligned vertically.
20:34:58 <fizzie> And of course with align you can put the &s at the beginning of the rows if you just want left-aligned on-top-of-each-other equations.
20:35:26 <Deewiant> But then you might as well use displaymath.
20:35:42 <AnMaster> $\left\{ \begin{aligned}2a+b=0\\
20:36:01 <AnMaster> what is the difference between aligned and aligned* btw
20:36:34 <AnMaster> (and that was just a short test case, the real thing I need this for is way way larger)
20:36:34 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure what an aligned* would do, though, since the numbering comes from the "top-level" math environment.
20:36:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah, but that doesn't make sense outside a display formula
20:37:21 <fizzie> I don't see an "aligned*" environment described in this thing, but maybe there's some special variant.
20:37:59 <AnMaster> also what is the alignat thingy hm
20:38:29 <fizzie> Anyway, if you're not going to use a & anywhere in your equations, I think \begin{aligned} ... \end{aligned} is essentially equivalent to \begin{array}{c} ... \end{array}.
20:39:24 <fizzie> And alignat lets you specify the space between rows.
20:40:01 <fizzie> Nno, actually it just lets you specify the number of columns there.
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20:40:54 <fizzie> Sure, because you didn't tell it where to align them.
20:41:09 <fizzie> If you want left-aligned, just stick a & in the beginning; it'll align those points.
20:41:20 <fizzie> That's why you're using align, after all.
20:41:42 <fizzie> Alternatively, use a \begin{array}{l} ... \end{array} instead of {aligned} there.
20:41:57 <fizzie> It'll probably do pretty much the exact same thing in this case.
20:52:17 <oerjan> <fizzie> "Karma Koalamon", wasn't that some sort of old hit song. <-- karma chameleon
20:52:36 <fizzie> Yes, it is what I was referring to.
20:53:10 <oerjan> wasn't clear how serious you were
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20:55:19 <oerjan> 11:24:52 <ehird> Q: Where is the fastest Ubuntu mirror for my connection located?
20:55:22 <oerjan> 11:24:54 <ehird> A: South Africa
20:55:48 <oerjan> that seems unlikely. i assume you saw about the recent pigeon test...
21:01:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, any idea if it may even be possible to get a circle around some number in math mode?
21:02:55 <Deewiant> If so: \fbox{$\displaystyle <whatever you want> $}
21:04:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it would need to be inside another formula, but that seems to have the entire formula inside.
21:04:12 <AnMaster> and no I really need circle here.
21:04:44 <Deewiant> No, you can put that wherever you like.
21:05:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, box with very rounded corners might be acceptable
21:05:45 <fizzie> Well, if you really *want*, you can do some manual drawing.
21:05:53 <fizzie> Like what I did with those extra-wide hats I needed.
21:06:09 <oerjan> \widehat isn't good enough?
21:06:26 <fizzie> oerjan: I needed wider; even wider than the ams widehat, which is wider than the standard LaTeX.
21:06:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, hah. What about arrows between two rows in an augmented matrix. The arrow going on the outside on the right between, say, row 5 and 7 or such
21:06:40 <AnMaster> I have no clue where to even start looking
21:06:57 * oerjan had assumed that one was freely expanding...
21:07:15 <fizzie> oerjan: Unfortunately, no; it has limits too.
21:07:59 <fizzie> AnMaster: I'm not quite sure what sort of an arrow you want here, actually.
21:08:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, let me find an example
21:10:14 <fizzie> oerjan: In fact: "If you use the amsfonts package (and the ams fonts) you get a wider wide hat, but it is still not very wide. Alternatively (As you would have known if you were a member of UKTeX as it was described in the last Baskerville) The rather nice yhmath package of Yannis Haralambous provides much bigger wide hats tildes and similar widgets. "
21:10:22 <fizzie> oerjan: And even the yhmath hat was not wide enough.
21:11:01 <fizzie> oerjan: I had to use savebox'd picture environment manually-drawn hat and \accentset from the accents package to make it work as a math mode accent.
21:12:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, how wide was this hat?
21:13:26 <fizzie> AnMaster: The hats are in http://zem.fi/~fis/hw.pdf page 31; and the blue hat on page 32 is the widest hat that the amssymb hat can do.
21:14:24 <fizzie> They look a bit different than the "real" hats, because it's just a ^-shaped wedge with a uniform-thickness line, while the real hats are a bit thicker in the middle. But on paper they weren't that bad.
21:14:43 <fizzie> Oh, and all the text is in Finnish.
21:14:44 <AnMaster> in the gnome pdf viewer, how do you select an area as an image
21:15:38 <fizzie> Evince, you mean? Not that I know the answer.
21:15:49 <AnMaster> well maybe that is the name of the app
21:16:47 <fizzie> What should area-selecting do? You mean it can export regions as raster images like that, or something?
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21:17:29 <ehird_> The "GNOME Shell" window manager/virtual desktops/launcher/task switcher is quite perplexing.
21:18:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, ok I mean like in http://omploader.org/vMmYwcQ
21:19:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, I know that thing was produced with pdftex (according to properties of pdf) but don't know who made it. And reason I didn't want to re-upload whole pdf (you need to login to the uni web system to reach it) was that it would probably violate even more copyright or such.
21:20:22 <fizzie> Egh, that doesn't look very friendly to typeset unless you happen to have a package exactly for that. I guess you could just put a correctly-sized \begin{picture} ... \end{picture} in a mbox there and use the arrows it provides, but that sounds like a lot of work.
21:20:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, and those round things aren't very round there yeah. I was looking for similiar arrows but better (more like you would write on a paper) circles.
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21:21:19 <fizzie> That whole image looks very messy, since the matrices aren't aligned. And isn't that vertical separating line supposed to be unbroken?
21:21:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, you mean a package for illustrating solving linear equations written as augmented matrixes? :D
21:21:36 <fizzie> You never know what those LaTeX freaks do.
21:21:42 <ehird> The GNOME Shell does, at least, make virtual desktops not a complete and utter inane waste of time by renaming them to Activities and letting you create/destroy them with a single click.
21:21:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, and yes it is unbroken in evince, but not okular
21:21:51 <ehird> Of course this is all very alpha.
21:22:05 <AnMaster> which was what I used for the picture bit due to evince not having "copy as picture"
21:22:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, also where it is broken in okular changes with zoom
21:22:53 <ehird> Though for a super-alpha this thing sure is high on graphical polish.
21:23:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, showing properties for the pdf in question shows that it was produced with "MiKTeX pdfTeX-1.40.4"
21:24:12 <fizzie> Given the general non-polishedness of that thing, I would guess it's just manually drawn arrows with picture or some-such.
21:24:19 <fizzie> Same could actually apply to the circles.
21:24:32 <fizzie> Doesn't sound a very pleasant thing to write, really.
21:24:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh I think I know the reason... okular says Helvetica is used from /usr/share/fonts/... but evince claims helvetica is embedded. Which seems rather strange
21:25:01 <AnMaster> (for the broken lines that is)
21:25:23 <ehird> Evince uses poppler, fwiw.
21:25:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, it looks a lot more polished in evince though
21:25:35 <ehird> So before hatin' on GNOME, check that you want to insult poppler. :P
21:25:43 <ehird> AnMaster: Yeah, but not kpdf.
21:25:50 <AnMaster> ehird, also I was insulting okular. Not evince
21:26:53 <ehird> kpdf uses xpdf or something.
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21:27:17 <ehird> Wonder if it inherits the shitty evil-bit content restrictions compliance.
21:28:03 <AnMaster> ehird, as I told you last time you asked that (some weeks ago): There is an option to turn that on and off
21:28:04 <fizzie> It's not like poppler's not based on xpdf too.
21:28:10 <AnMaster> and popler is based on xpdf iirc?
21:28:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, but kpdf might not inherit the option.
21:28:37 <ehird> Anyway, it's inherently crappy code that shouldn't be there, so to hell with that.
21:28:41 <pikhq> Poppler is the library xpdf uses.
21:28:49 <pikhq> (it got seperated from xpdf recently)
21:28:49 <AnMaster> ehird, in xpdf it is not an option iirc? Well a compile time one
21:29:10 <AnMaster> for kpdf it is easy to reach under settings
21:29:50 <ehird> pikhq: xpdf does not use poppler afaik.
21:29:56 <ehird> Poppler is a fork of xpdf's rendering library.
21:30:25 <ehird> (with one of the main focuses being glatform^Wklatform^Wetc integration, so I doubt oh-so-very-minimal xpdf would adopt it.)
21:31:19 <pikhq> I could swear my xpdf uses poppler.
21:31:43 <pikhq> Mine most certainly links against it.
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21:32:08 <pikhq> Xpdf has a compile-time option to use it now.
21:32:09 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xpdf simply doesn't mention it.
21:32:15 <ehird> pikhq: Unexpected.
21:33:04 <pikhq> Erm. The wikipedia page does.
21:33:04 <ehird> Oh yay, I ran compiz when running gnome-shell and now have a WM with no way to start, e.g. the panels.
21:33:23 <pikhq> "Many programs (including Xpdf, itself) can use poppler as their backend renderer[3]." -- wikipedia://Xpdf
21:33:40 <ehird> wikipedia:// is not and shouldn't be a protocol.
21:33:50 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Erm. The wikipedia page does. <-- yeah wikipedia is defined as being true. So ./configure --help is LYING
21:34:00 <pikhq> ehird, you fail at URIs.
21:34:05 <ehird> AnMaster: you didn't even read what he said.
21:34:22 <ehird> pikhq: If "fail at" means "understand the structure and rationale of", then yes.
21:34:25 <AnMaster> ehird, no I just copied wrong line
21:34:32 <AnMaster> I meant to copy <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xpdf simply doesn't mention it.
21:34:36 <pikhq> URIs do not map to protocols at all.
21:34:39 <AnMaster> but somehow ended up copying wrong
21:34:43 <pikhq> Well, certain of them do.
21:34:51 <ehird> pikhq: "wikipedia://" is simply wrong.
21:34:54 <pikhq> isbn: doesn't, though.
21:35:01 <pikhq> No, wikipedia:// is simply unspecified.
21:35:14 <ehird> pikhq: Your pedanticism is stupid, because the part before : in a URI is known as the protocol.
21:36:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, that unpolished pic ends up looking good when printed hm
21:37:33 <ehird> Gasp; printers have a high enough DPI that you don't need to antialias.
21:38:13 <Ilari> Displays have something like 100DPI, printers can easily be 1200DPI...
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21:38:18 <fizzie> AnMaster: If you end up wanting to draw stuff manually, before embarking on a magical \begin{picture} adventure, you might want to check out xypic too. It's a bit more complicated, but it has a "xymatrix" environment, which at least lets you draw things between matrix cells; it could maybe be abused for that too.
21:38:43 <ehird> The canonical display resolution is 96PPI. Cheapo printers are like 300-600DPI, decent ones 1200DPI+.
21:38:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, atm I'm actually considering pstricks. Of course that could well be even worse
21:38:59 <ehird> AnMaster: why are you using latex?
21:39:02 <fizzie> Well, it's certainly more flexible than picture.
21:39:16 <AnMaster> ehird, what are you suggesting instead?
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21:39:54 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, what are you trying to do?
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21:40:46 <AnMaster> ehird, nicely formatted math in a document consisting of roughly 5 pages. About 1/3 of that would end up as equations
21:40:53 <Ilari> High-def monitors have DPI somewhere in neighborhood of 200...
21:40:56 <AnMaster> oh and my handwriting really sucks
21:40:59 * ehird makes folder on desktop with Nautilus, creates fuck.sh, puts inside "sh", *cackles*
21:41:05 <ehird> AnMaster: use LyX or something.
21:41:21 <ehird> Ilari: 200PPI is very rare; I only know of the two IBM monitors around 220PPI.
21:41:29 <AnMaster> ehird, duh I am using it. But I ran out of it's capabilities here...
21:41:31 <ehird> Stuff like 170PPI is in phones and shit.
21:41:38 <AnMaster> which is why I'm using raw latex inserts in it
21:41:41 <Ilari> ehird: Yeah, high-def monitors are very rare.
21:41:53 <ehird> Ilari: The highest I know is the 1600PPI MyVu Crystal thingies that they project onto glasses that cover your eyes, so you can watch movies and shit.
21:42:00 <ehird> (It's .5" and 640x480.)
21:42:20 <ehird> AnMaster: OpenOffice equations or something? LaTeX is a bitch to write.
21:42:44 <AnMaster> ehird, can it do stuff like http://omploader.org/vMmYwcQ but that looks nice?
21:42:53 <ehird> Probably not *as* nice.
21:42:55 <fizzie> Phones do go up to something close to 300 PPI now.
21:43:12 <AnMaster> ehird, um "as nice"? what are you on... That pic does look quite horrible
21:43:24 <ehird> AnMaster, Howso, apart from those circle things?
21:43:37 <AnMaster> ehird, the gaps in several of the lines for example
21:44:18 <AnMaster> ehird, look at the first equation in the last line, look at the arrow at it. Look at the upper corner on that arrow line. See the gap?
21:44:20 <pikhq> AnMaster: Gah. That's painful typesetting.
21:44:25 <fizzie> That thing would benefit from a bit of alignment too, but that should be very doable with LaTeX.
21:44:34 <ehird> "Oh, true."; i.e., yes, I can see.
21:44:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes. Now do that well please!
21:44:51 <AnMaster> ehird, well I meant the [ being broken first time around
21:45:03 <pikhq> I'd hope LaTeX could do it well. However, I'm not familiar with typing matrices into TeX.
21:45:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, and alignment is easy yeah \hphantom{} and \vphantom{}
21:45:24 <AnMaster> I used both inside equations already today!
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21:45:43 <fizzie> Matrices are easy, but the arrows less so.
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21:46:54 <AnMaster> <pikhq> I'd hope LaTeX could do it well. However, I'm not familiar with typing matrices into TeX. <-- according to the properties of the pdf it was from it was created by "MiKTeX pdfTeX-1.40.4"
21:47:05 <AnMaster> but that could just be user error
21:47:21 <AnMaster> however I don't even know how to get it as well as that level so yeah...
21:47:56 <fizzie> I'd probably typeset that whole thing inside a \begin{align*} to get the overall alignment done easily, then the amsmath "matrix" environments to typeset the individual matrices, and a \mbox{}'d picture/xypic/pstricks manually-drawn bit to the right of each matrix containing the circled numbers and arrows. Though the arrow position tweaking won't be very pleasant.
21:47:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, it does look a lot better in evince though. okular messes it up much more
21:48:10 <pikhq> Things like the "-1/2" and "--1" and the horrendous alignment suggests major TeX fail.
21:49:03 <AnMaster> pikhq, well yes, And I do know how to do the matrixes easily enough. Something like: [\begin{array}{ccccc|c}
21:49:39 <fizzie> Use the ams matrix envs, not array; they do a lot better (i.e. less) whitespace in there.
21:50:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, that means dropping lyx wysiwym though since lyx doesn't seem to support that specific env
21:51:17 <AnMaster> (it's insert matrix is what ends up as arrays
21:52:03 <fizzie> There's a "bmatrix" in amsmath which typesets the [...] delimiters automatically and well.
21:52:47 <fizzie> The [ and ] automatically, I mean.
21:53:46 <fizzie> Though since the ams matrices don't have explicit column specifiers, I'm not entirely sure offhand how to do the separating vertical line there. I'm sure it's possible, though. (Not that you couldn't get entirely reasonable matrices with array too.)
21:53:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: Third line, the scaling operation.
21:53:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, well ok sound good, but those manual [] outside doesn't cause a lot of issue really since that is wysiwyg editing anyway. And yeah the lyx generated source looks quite painful
21:54:13 <AnMaster> pikhq, looks like a long minus?
21:54:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, rather than two separate dashes
21:54:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh you didn't mean two separate dashes with -- ?
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21:54:57 <AnMaster> yeah it should really be a short minus dash in all those cases
21:55:05 <pikhq> I meant a long dash, and that is written using ASCII with --.
21:55:58 <fizzie> What it *should* be is the math mode minus, but it looks like it's outside math mode, with that one long dash and three short ones cheerfully mixed together.
21:56:13 <AnMaster> also that pic uses | for the line rather than a full line
21:56:32 <AnMaster> guess whoever it was just inserted an extra column with | in it
21:58:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw what about underlining, I used bold instead (looks a lot nicer, but the original pic is intended to illustrate something that is plausible to write with a pencil... and bold really isn't)
21:59:29 <fizzie> Bold is just fine. Or did you want to know how to underline those?
22:00:19 <fizzie> If you do end up using the ams matrices (you can try replacing one array with them to see if they make any difference) and still want the vertical column-separating line, http://texblog.net/latex-archive/maths/amsmath-matrix/ will be helpful.
22:00:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah I wanted to know how to underline
22:01:57 <fizzie> \underline{xx} would be my guess, but I don't quite remember. It would be a reasonable complement to the \overline{xx} I know exists in math mode.
22:02:16 <fizzie> Or is that overbar/underbar? Can't ever remember without looking up.
22:02:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, if you mean that using {cc|c} kind of thing? Yeah? Same as usual then?
22:03:24 <AnMaster> aligning with minus sign sticking out in front would be nicer, didn't manage that yet without lots of \hphantom kind of stuff
22:04:07 <fizzie> Yes, with that tweak the matrix envs will accept the usual {ccc|c} thing. Admittedly there's not much benefit from using them (over an explicit array) except that they have those automatic delimiters (a minor thing) and they decrease the huge horizontal spacing a bit (maybe a matter of taste).
22:04:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, \underbar. Yay for lyx completion suggestions as you type \<anything> in math mode
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22:05:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, this sounds familiar but I can't really identify it
22:06:16 <fizzie> AnMaster: German adjactive for en:wonderful.
22:07:58 <fizzie> It's not immediately obvious how to easily do "center numbers but ignore the minus sign"; it is reasonably easy to do "left-align numbers but ignore the minus sign" by using two columns in place of one, with the other column containing only the minus signs.
22:08:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, and some horrible adjustment
22:09:12 <AnMaster> and yeah center + ignore minus would be nice
22:09:17 <fizzie> What horrible adjustment?
22:09:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, for the column spacing
22:09:49 <AnMaster> so that there is less space between minus sign and number column
22:09:59 <fizzie> AnMaster: But you can do that in the column specifier.
22:10:20 <fizzie> Just use "r @{} l" to get a right-aligned column and a left-aligned column with no space between them.
22:11:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, that would be like: {r@{}lr@{}lr@{}l|r@{}l} instead of {ccc|c} then?
22:11:18 <fizzie> Yes. Not very pretty, admittedly.
22:11:27 <fizzie> And you probably want to use @{X} instead, where X is something that will cause a tiny space, to leave a small breathing gap between the digits and the minus sign.
22:12:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, some thin space like \, ?
22:12:35 <fizzie> Yes, though in that case you probably need to re-enter math mode in there, so @{$\,$} -- not quite sure about that.
22:12:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think \, works outside math mode though
22:13:05 <AnMaster> not completely sure about that
22:13:20 <fizzie> Possibly, yes. Haven't really used them elsewhere, though.
22:13:26 <AnMaster> @{$\,$} <-- that looks like quite a painful smiley!
22:13:51 <fizzie> Yes, I guess it actually should work without the $$s, because I remember using \quad outside math mode.
22:14:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, why on earth something like \quad. I never found a use for it
22:14:39 <fizzie> To leave a reasonable gap between two pictures, I think.
22:15:27 <fizzie> And the two-column approach still doesn't center the digits, of course. For that you'd need to define some-sort of zero-width minus sign. Not impossible, of course.
22:15:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway I'm suspecting that the sanest way to do this is pstricks, but that way I can't use pdftex then. and I like \usepackage{microtype}...
22:15:52 <AnMaster> or wait, can pdftex render to ps?
22:16:24 <AnMaster> and I don't need hyperref really in this case
22:16:34 <fizzie> http://www.coli.uni-saarland.de/~fouvry/how-do-I.html "PSTricks with pdflatex". They sound quite kludgy.
22:17:18 <AnMaster> ooh yeah you can embed pdf in pdf. Quite a nice feature that I actually used a few times
22:17:37 <AnMaster> (convert svg to pdf, then embed that)
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22:21:00 <fizzie> Hmm. I think a \makebox[0pt]{$-$\rule{Xpt}{0pt}} should give you a math-mode "-" character that is actually zero-width, and displaced a bit (depending on the X there) to the left from the point you use it in. You should be able to use that sort of structure in front of numbers in a centered array column to get the "center numbers but ignore the minus sign" behaviour.
22:21:07 <fizzie> Or at least so do I speculate; haven't tried.
22:22:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm ok worth a try I guess.
22:23:15 <ehird> <AnMaster> fizzie, why on earth something like \quad. I never found a use for it
22:24:20 <AnMaster> ehird, you fail there I'm afraid. \begin{cases}
22:24:35 <AnMaster> it was how this whole discussion started
22:24:44 <ehird> yeah, well, that doesn't work always.
22:24:54 <ehird> latex is all about opportunistic hacks.
22:25:04 <AnMaster> ehird, and the cases env is a lot better for what you are suggesting
22:25:21 <ehird> if it works, and if you want everything else that comes with it
22:25:28 <AnMaster> and even if it didn't exist it would be way better to use at least a matrix
22:25:32 <ehird> you can't seriously be a purity zealot when using latex, so don't argue that it's wrong.
22:25:40 <AnMaster> ehird, two lines won't be aligned then
22:25:51 <ehird> who said anything about two lines
22:26:07 <AnMaster> ehird, I was assuming it was in something like:
22:26:27 <ehird> you made a donkey out of you and I.
22:26:56 <AnMaster> ehird, because I couldn't think of a reason for such a big space like that otherwise
22:27:30 <ehird> t'was jus t an example
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22:34:28 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Hmm. I think a \makebox[0pt]{$-$\rule{Xpt}{0pt}} <-- just tested it. Latex errors on Xpt. What was that supposed to be instead?
22:35:21 <fizzie> Not really, it's a bit font-dependent. Possibly you could use a \hphantom with suitable contents instead of a fixed-width strut.
22:35:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, well it was placed on top of the text with X = 1
22:35:38 <fizzie> Yes, 1pt is not very much of spacing.
22:35:40 <AnMaster> as in on top of the \nicefrac directly following it
22:36:03 <fizzie> You'll need at least a "-"'s worth of space there, because the \makebox centers the text in it.
22:36:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, any magic way to find out how wide the - is there?
22:37:01 <fizzie> Naybe \hphantom{$-\,$} or something.
22:37:10 <fizzie> To provide "- and a bit" of space.
22:37:36 <fizzie> It is a bit hacky solution though.
22:37:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw I'm not familiar with how \rule works. What does the arguments in \rule{Xpt}{0pt} mean?
22:38:04 <fizzie> First one is width, second one is height.
22:39:05 <fizzie> It creates a filled box with those arguments, but generally it's used to do horizontal or vertical lines (in which case one of the arguments is line thickness and the other the length) or alternatively struts (with zero width or zero height) to control spacing.
22:39:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, ok that made latex error for some reason, it accepted \rule though
22:40:23 <AnMaster> hm seems it didn't like math mode inside hphantom?
22:41:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, in theory it works, except that it ends up on top of the | line of the augmented matrix
22:42:04 <fizzie> Ah, right. Well, you can solve that by adjusting the column spacing manually if you want.
22:43:58 <fizzie> Also, if you seriously dislike the fixed-width \rule there, possibly \makebox[0pt][r]{$-\,$} could work instead. The additional 'r' argument should make the right edge of the "- " text be flush against the right edge of the zero-width box, i.e. the place you use it in.
22:44:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, I need about half a \, though
22:46:32 <fizzie> I don't think there's a smaller predefined space. You can use a suitable \rule again; but at least this time the rule won't have to depend on the length of the - sign, it's just the amount of space.
22:47:15 <AnMaster> hm: \negthinspace{} is negative space XD
22:47:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, it would depend on font size though in reality
22:47:44 <fizzie> \quad is 1em, I think, and \, is 3/18 quad, so 0.16em; something like \rule{0.8em}{0pt} would be half a \,.
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22:48:26 <fizzie> It's just that there's a different concept of "font size" in- and out-math-mode, and you're sort of mixing the modes there; but in practice I guess it should work.
22:48:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, for some reason that placed it way off the other way
22:49:38 <AnMaster> <fizzie> \quad is 1em, I think, and \, is 3/18 quad, so 0.16em; something like \rule{0.8em}{0pt} would be half a \,.
22:50:23 <fizzie> The decimal points, who cares about it.
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22:55:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, issue is that this doesn't make the column wide enough in the matrix hm
22:56:05 <AnMaster> how did you say you fixed that now again?
22:58:46 <fizzie> Well, you can add a spacer column there, maybe with the @{...} syntax.
23:00:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, what was you supposed to put inside the ${} ?
23:01:09 <AnMaster> I tried using a phantom but that resulted in very strange things
23:01:41 <ehird> xchat-gnome is so lame
23:04:32 <fizzie> I'm not sure what to put there; maybe one of the \:-style spaces, since those are font-size-dependent.
23:07:33 <ehird> AnMaster: i wish you would stop agreeing to things when you know full well that we hate entirely different things about them and on the topic you know I think you're wrong about everything except this one boolean switch value, not the reasons behind it
23:07:49 <ehird> (e.g. when I said kde sucks and you said "yeah, 4 at least")
23:08:24 <ehird> xchat-gnome sucks, but xchat is far, far worse.
23:08:50 <ehird> thus the two lines prior.
23:09:18 <ehird> it doesn't make any sense to agree with an opinion if it's just a single boolean value and happens to come from entirely different reasoning and position
23:09:53 <AnMaster> then you should provide the full thing so I can tell that it differs
23:10:11 <AnMaster> you provide too little information
23:10:38 <ehird> but (a) I'm exceedingly lazy (b) I've mentioned xchat vs xchat-gnome before (c) it's fairly obvious I don't hate xchat-gnome because it isn't bloated like xchat :)
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23:11:33 <ehird> ...although as a bandaid it could do with a "put the userlist to the right instead of concealed behind that button" option because I get the whole "it wastes space for quite a rare operation" thing but this is just a terrible solution
23:15:56 <ehird> It has a menu just for all its preference dialogs, dude.
23:16:27 <AnMaster> it could use with all those in the main preference dialog yes
23:16:32 <AnMaster> and checking user list is quite common
23:16:51 <ehird> If they were all in one dialog it might cause a black hole due to its ridiculous hugeness.
23:17:17 <ehird> Also, it's quite common; I'm not quite sure it deserves such screen real estate, though. Ooh, maybe in my client, in the tree view, the channel could expand to a user list.
23:17:22 <AnMaster> ehird, it already has a treeview. And it would still be less than the treeview in the kdevelop settings for example
23:17:24 <ehird> You could leave it up if you want, and it's still accessable with a click.
23:17:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Is KDevelop's bigger than SeaMonkey's, I wonder?
23:17:49 <AnMaster> of course I expect you to argue than an irc client needs less options
23:18:07 <ehird> *accessible, not accessable
23:18:18 <AnMaster> ehird, don't have seamonkey and just remember kdevelop didn't use a tree view but an icon list and then tabbed pages under each icon
23:18:25 <AnMaster> it is kate that uses a tree view
23:18:47 <ehird> Kate's isn't really *that* huge, though.
23:18:54 <ehird> At least it's well-organised. Still could do with a big trim.
23:19:33 <AnMaster> it is very well balanced and feature rich. Yet way easier to find what you are looking for than in emacs
23:19:45 <ehird> Yes, but... it still has an awful, awful lot of preferences.
23:19:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I changed over 2/3 of them I think
23:20:13 <ehird> Yes, but you're crazy and anyone designing software around you is crazy.
23:20:32 <AnMaster> ehird, still something like visual studio has WAY more options
23:20:47 <AnMaster> and visual studio handles way fewer languages too
23:20:57 <ehird> Yes, but Kate makes claim to be an editor, not an integrated development whoopisystem.
23:21:18 <AnMaster> ehird, I would place kate somewhere between "IDE" and "bare editor"
23:21:24 <AnMaster> more towards editor than IDE though
23:22:03 <ehird> Someone ought to write a text editor as actual separate Unix commands, so the claim that it's an IDE is finally true.
23:22:06 <AnMaster> of course this places emacs near IDEs (except less integrated for many languages)
23:22:15 <ehird> (sed doesn't count, it combines multiple commands into one. :P)
23:23:40 <AnMaster> ehird, you could write it based on a simple dd + sh base
23:23:55 <Tinned_Tuna> heya. Anyone here have any experience writing interpetters ?
23:24:05 <AnMaster> so shell scripts like "replace" and "search" and "view" and what not
23:24:05 <ehird> I'd expect everyone.
23:24:15 <ehird> Apart from the bots.
23:24:22 <ehird> AnMaster: View? You mean cat?
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23:24:55 <AnMaster> ehird, view: #!/bin/sh\n$PAGER $@
23:24:59 <Tinned_Tuna> would you lend us a hand, I'm struggling to write a brainfuck interpreter in python, I can't get it to loop correctly on [ or ]
23:25:12 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway my plan was to base it ALL on just dd and sh
23:25:15 <ehird> AnMaster: Pagers don't have a command-line based interface.
23:25:30 <AnMaster> so those are the only external dependencies
23:25:32 <ehird> Also, is that meant to be interesting? dd/sh is an established "language".
23:25:48 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: Either you have to find the matching [ or ] every time you execute in the code, or you need to match them beforehand.
23:25:57 <AnMaster> ehird, yes but it makes it more portable or something. (yeah it doesn't really hold up)
23:26:12 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: If you're looping through the program file character by character, firstly, stop and load it all into memory first.
23:26:41 <Tinned_Tuna> ehird, I have it loaded into a list, and each time I encounter a [ I push the current position in the program onto a stack
23:26:51 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: Right. And?
23:27:13 <Tinned_Tuna> well, then when I find the matching ] I don't have to walk backwards in the code I just jump there
23:27:20 <ehird> Right, so what's the issue?
23:28:32 <ehird> Well, Epiphany just crashed upon opening that straining codepad page.
23:28:37 <ehird> Let's try clicking it again...
23:28:57 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: (btw, it's interpreter with one t)
23:29:17 <ehird> self.stack.append((self.instruction_pointer,self.pointer,)) # why save self.pointer here too?
23:29:31 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: anyway, your [ has a bug
23:29:35 <ehird> what if the value is 0 at the start of the loop?
23:29:38 <ehird> it executes it anyway
23:30:00 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: you have to check at both ends, OR, you can make the ] jump unconditionally to the [, and let the [ do all the checking (but this is slightly slower)
23:31:59 <Tinned_Tuna> so do I only need to check on the [ and ]?
23:32:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, how to tell pdftex to embed *all* fonts?
23:32:18 <AnMaster> well only the used parts obviously
23:32:20 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: What conditions would require checking for the others?
23:33:22 <ehird> what are they supposed to do?
23:34:51 <Tinned_Tuna> they're supposed to be doing the checking in the loop
23:35:26 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: the loop doesn't abort if it becomes 0 inside the loop
23:35:33 <ehird> maybe you should look at the semantics for the commands again
23:35:44 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck#Language_overview
23:37:09 <fizzie> AnMaster: I don't really know; there's the pdftexDownloadBase14 setting you can change, but that's set to "true" in the default system config here at least.
23:37:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, is that from some \latexcommand or command line option or?
23:38:30 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's in the updmap.cfg tex config file; Debian has an "update-updmap" tool to build that, your distribution might do things differently.
23:39:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm ok. and it is set to true, yet helvetica isn't embedded
23:43:36 <fizzie> Based on some quick googling, it looks like it can't embed Helvetica unless you actually, you know, have it; I mean the actual font named "Helvetica", which is commercial and all.
23:43:44 <fizzie> http://groups.google.de/group/comp.text.tex/browse_thread/thread/690b4c0f9cbf2f49/3052d903aaaeadcd has some workarounds.
23:43:52 <fizzie> Is there a reason you need it embedded, though?
23:45:53 <fizzie> (The workarounds seem to mostly involve running things through Ghostscript's pdfwriter device with font-embedding turned on, using "ps2pdf13 -dPDFSETTINGS=/prepress in.pdf out.pdf"; that sounds like it could mess something else up easily.