00:13:04 <AnMaster> "Rmime-mode has one annoying feature: if you sort your messages, you lost your attachments. I find it great otherwise." <-- *blink*
00:13:28 <ehird> Clearly it needs a preference "[ ] Don't delete my attachments".
00:13:38 <ehird> AnMaster would probably defend it by saying he changed it :P
00:14:41 <AnMaster> I was just wondering how the hell that person I quoted could consider it a feature
00:15:14 <ehird> AnMaster: a gnomist like i would claim that a lot of existing preferences tend to amount to "don't break" :P
00:15:33 <ehird> (e.g. from a usability perspective; "[ ] Be usable")
00:16:43 <AnMaster> ehird, arguing that a KDE user or anything would consider "delete attachments if you sort mail" a feature... is just insane
00:16:54 <ehird> it's called hyperbole for the sake of making a point
00:17:25 <ehird> i never said analogy. and of course you don't think it's a good whatever because you hate the perspective
00:17:38 <ehird> funnily enough i didn't say it for you to appreciate
00:17:50 <AnMaster> ehird, and this was an emacs mode btw
00:18:16 <AnMaster> where I do think someone could claim it as a feature
00:24:20 <Ilari> Aren't most of attachments virii anyway? :->
00:25:02 <AnMaster> Ilari, I thought they were usually diffs? ;P
00:29:00 <Tinned_Tuna> I'm rewarding myself with a cookie for getting my python to interpret very simple brainfuck... brb
00:29:54 <ehird> i'd class that more crumb level :P
00:29:55 <AnMaster> I wrote a trivial interpreter in python recently.
00:30:13 <AnMaster> didn't get around to input iirc
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00:30:55 <AnMaster> it was too slow to run anything non-trivial though
00:31:30 <Tinned_Tuna> ehird, I've not even studied any of this in my course yet though. And I'm really stupid. This is an achievement for me :-)
00:32:35 <AnMaster> it didn't use a "store position" model, rather it parsed it into a recursive list of tuples
00:34:39 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: yay stupidity!
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00:35:20 <AnMaster> ehird, try to be nice... or something
00:35:28 <ehird> AnMaster: uh, he called himself stupid
00:35:35 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: Try to be nice! To... yourself.
00:36:10 <Tinned_Tuna> it's true though, before I came to uni I was very, very dumb
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00:36:18 <AnMaster> ehird, the nice way would have been "oh I don't think you are stupid, it is like that for most people in the beginning"
00:36:39 <Tinned_Tuna> I look back at code from less than a year ago and just cringe so very hard.
00:36:40 <ehird> AnMaster: and if the world was filled with people who said shit like that all the time it'd be overwhelmingly boring
00:38:20 <ehird> everyone thinks they were stupid a few years ago fwiw
00:40:52 <Tinned_Tuna> ehird, but do they think they were stupid enough that they would punch their previous selves in the face should they get the opportunity to meet them?
00:41:09 <ehird> well, most people aren't that violent. :P
00:44:52 <AnMaster> http://pastebin.ca/1578482 in case anyone cares about my more or less crappy bf interpreter in python. Wrote it as part of learning python. It is very suboptimal compared to optimising ones I wrote before in other languages.
00:45:21 <ehird> can you even gpl something that small.
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00:46:49 <ehird> it has enough useless fluff code to count, i guess.
00:47:07 <ehird> i don't think you could GPL either the _parse or _run methods, though.
00:47:27 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: hey you're in the uk, cool.
00:47:37 <ehird> "vague geographical buddies"
00:53:00 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: nearby.
00:53:14 <ehird> (enough that the geoip robots claim so)
00:54:04 <Tinned_Tuna> I'm only at York, so it's not too vague... It could be more vague.
00:57:41 <ehird> "Member of the inverse of the empty set"
00:59:48 <Tinned_Tuna> "Member of the inverse of every empty set"
01:00:43 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: there are multiple?
01:04:37 <Tinned_Tuna> bah, I still can't get this stupid interpreter to work on anything more complex than a simple bf program
01:04:55 <ehird> ehh, repaste it and i'll rewrite it to work or something :P
01:05:30 <Tinned_Tuna> >+++[>[-]>[-]<<[->+>+<<]>>[-<<+>>]<-]<<[[>[>+>+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]<[-]<<]>[<+>-]<#
01:05:36 <ehird> which is meant to do?
01:05:47 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: you're not wrapping.
01:06:07 <ehird> 8-bit brainfuck (the most common) has 0-255 cells that wrap from 256->0 and -1->255, i.e. mod 256 arithmetic
01:06:14 <ehird> i.e. what fits in an 8-bit value like C's "char"
01:06:25 <ehird> this also happens to be the range of ASCII, and thus has obvious advantages for . and ,
01:06:26 <Tinned_Tuna> ehird, yea, I thought it best not to so it was easier to work with bigger numbers
01:06:32 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: then expect programs to break.
01:06:42 <ehird> as almost all non-trivial BF programs rely on 8-bit wrapping
01:07:01 <ehird> fix that compiler, then :P
01:07:07 <ehird> but that's almost certainly why it's breaking.
01:07:26 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: btw, your [ is slow
01:07:36 <Tinned_Tuna> what would be a good, simple, quick nested loop program to test it with, do you reckon?
01:07:44 <ehird> i strongly recommend building a table of foo[position of '['] = position of ']' and foo[position of ']'] = position of '[' beforehand
01:07:47 <Tinned_Tuna> ehird, premature optimization is the root of all trees ;-)
01:07:57 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: there are two types of optimisation
01:08:05 <ehird> algorithmic, and the evil kind
01:08:21 <ehird> the evil kind is a last resort, but not doing trivial, massively-helping algorithmic optimisations is a sin
01:08:58 <Tinned_Tuna> true. But I would like to see it work before I start digging around in it's innards
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01:09:21 <ehird> this makes it simpler to make it work.
01:09:31 <ehird> as the "searching" technique is error prone; this can be done with just a stack
01:09:50 <ehird> ] pops off the location of the [, assigns it to its own location; then assigns its own location to that grabbed [ location off the stack
01:10:01 <ehird> so [ is a simple stack push, and ] is a simple stack pop and two dictionary assignments.
01:10:14 <Tinned_Tuna> ehird, do this in preprocessing_program, yea?
01:10:16 <ehird> and each command, when running, can just do matching[pos]
01:10:23 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: sure, I didn't really read your program too much :P
01:11:31 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: if you care, python thing: "class Bf_Interpreter():" should (a) be BFInterpreter (python standard), (b) omit the "()", (c) have "(object)" (new-style objects; default in python 3. you should basically always use them)
01:14:16 <Tinned_Tuna> ehird, I know, PEP8 is *so* long. I am forever forgetting bits of style here there and forever :-(
01:14:37 <ehird> heh, i've pretty much absorbed pep8 in one or two readings
01:14:54 <ehird> although i don't really do much pythoneering recently.
01:15:04 <Tinned_Tuna> after a while it's just so dry I tend to start just skimming along it
01:15:19 <ehird> you make baby jesus^W^Wguido sad.
01:17:07 <ehird> that's simon peyton-jones.
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01:54:49 * Sgeo goes to right something incredibly evil/idiotic in C++
01:57:19 -!- oerjan has joined.
01:57:20 <Sgeo> How is C++ itself evil or idiotic?
01:58:12 * Sgeo is making a heterogenous list
01:58:33 <ehird> We've told you why C++ is abominable quite a bit and you never listen, so why waste the effort?
01:59:32 <ehird> Every time you've mentioned it?
02:02:02 * Sgeo doesn't remember :(
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02:12:42 <ehird> "Faith not supported by reason and empirical evidence is wishful thinking" --19.org, claiming to be Islamic
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04:31:07 <ehird> Deewiant: I think I have an idea as to why the discrepancy for the UltraBay battery thing
04:31:15 <ehird> Disabling the optical drive seems to save some battery life
04:31:19 <ehird> And obviously with the UltraBay battery that's done
04:31:38 <ehird> so it might be 1h30m + how much you save from disabling the optical drive
05:08:26 <ehird> ok, the highest PPI display I know of that isn't the ibm thingy: the 2048x1356 15" for thinkpads
05:15:06 <ehird> oh wait, it's just "Hur hur obvious thing everyone knows drawn badly"
05:15:24 <ehird> i expect more from xkcd! not that i get it.
05:15:31 <ehird> (more, that is. not the joke.)
05:16:13 <oerjan> i hereby declare ehird's sense of humor to have officially drowned in his cynicism.
05:16:38 <ehird> xkcd used to be a happy and funny aspect of my life, dammit.
05:17:32 <ehird> http://xkcd.com/640/ was even a glimmer of hope.
05:17:47 <ehird> sure, the art is inexplicably worse than usual, and that entire fourth panel ruins the entire thing and must be omitted
05:18:03 <ehird> but it was funny, dammit (before I stopped trying to tie the third panel into the fourth to "get the joke")
05:18:21 <ehird> we're back to the same ol' xkcd.
05:18:23 <oerjan> well as i was opening xkcd today i was all prepared to declare "damn _another_ stupid internet meme, someone tell him he's spending too much time on reddit". but then it _wasn't_.
05:18:39 <ehird> small victories, eh.
05:19:33 <oerjan> otoh when i think about today's strip further, i think maybe your cynicism has infected him. hm.
05:19:52 <oerjan> IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT ANYHOW
05:21:11 <ehird> oerjan: i offer, for your comparison: http://xkcd.com/11/ http://xkcd.com/631/
05:21:24 <ehird> a 620 comic gap is *not* enough to make that non-WTF
05:21:41 <oerjan> also, not having the punch line in the last panel was consider new and refreshing back in the early '90s...
05:22:25 <ehird> it'd be less bad if it was just a continuation, and not an entirely irrelevant, confusing diversion that doesn't tie into the preceding frame and thus makes me search for The Real Punchline
05:22:59 <oerjan> but but ... i thought the fourth panel fit in perfectly
05:23:26 <oerjan> admittedly, i may not have tried to analyse it intellectually. i'm not a joke murderer after all.
05:23:30 <ehird> YOU ARE BLINDED BY YOUR DEVOTION
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05:26:09 <ehird> coppro: have you ever considered adopting a new moniker.
05:26:53 <ehird> i am afraid that my jokes must then continue unabated
05:28:25 <ehird> coppro: you poor widescreen slave.
05:29:30 <coppro> *: good keyboard though
05:29:37 <ehird> yes, I can tell...
05:29:41 * coppro hates firefox-kde integration
05:29:56 <ehird> two bad pieces of software don't go great together?
05:30:11 <coppro> firefox-gnome is pretty good I hear
05:30:29 <ehird> it's... acceptable. epiphany is still nicer for the discerning gnomer
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05:31:46 <coppro> wtf is up with my font sizes...
05:32:00 <coppro> (like, size 9 on this computer is == 12 on old one)
05:32:22 <ehird> coppro: I'd recommend leaving dpi=96 just for alignment crap, prolly
05:32:27 <ehird> unless it's really unreadable
05:32:49 <ehird> but everything on the web for instance pretty much assumes 96ppi so you get freakishly small images along regular text...
05:33:29 <coppro> hmm... what was that firefox theme called?
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05:41:42 <ehird> "the T60 and T60p are based off of the intel socket M processors. no matter how much memory you install in these thinkpads, only 3GB will be addressable regardless of operating system used. this is a physical limitation and there is absolutely no workaround."
05:42:41 <coppro> okay, so fonts are good in CZ now
05:42:47 <coppro> but Google page text is tiny :/
05:42:49 <ehird> woooooooooooooooooooooe.
05:43:01 <ehird> coppro: about:config or deal with it.
05:43:10 <ehird> this is what you get into when you buy a high-ppi screen.
05:43:40 <coppro> OS fonts are readable-size
05:43:49 <coppro> like, window titles and such
05:43:51 <ehird> coppro: because x11 autodetected your display's ppi.
05:43:57 <ehird> firefox ignores all that.
05:43:59 <ehird> because it's shit.
05:44:09 <coppro> but I have DPI-forcing on!
05:44:28 <ehird> fuck yeah, integratin' into my environment 'n shit
05:44:37 <ehird> *official epiphany gangsta sign*
05:46:18 * coppro sets font size to 16 and things look sane
05:46:24 <ehird> coppro: bad doggy.
05:46:31 <ehird> sites that do font-size: foopx; will break.
05:46:41 <ehird> about:config and set yerself some ppi if you want it to work
05:46:52 <ehird> coppro: I suggest you get used to it, though, unless you really like freakishly-tiny images
05:48:17 * coppro has fiddled with font sizes and is now satisfied
05:48:33 <ehird> it will work for google, which uses relative font sizes.
05:48:41 <ehird> not so for the 90% of sites that set font size absolutely.
05:49:32 <ehird> more pixels are alas not objectively better in the current situation
05:49:49 <ehird> coppro: if you want knock the zoom up, so that images and text are sized up
05:49:55 <ehird> a bit pixelated ofc
05:50:28 * coppro tries to remember his 6th rss feed on the toolbar
05:58:58 <ehird> dear xchat-gnome: i really don't need a server lag indicator in that otherwise-empty status bar
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06:11:19 <zzo38> Can low-level FPGA programming be done?
06:11:24 <zzo38> Is it possible to do?
06:12:09 <ehird> Isn't that all FPGA programming?
06:12:40 <zzo38> No, I mean *really* low-level, like, not Verilog or VHDL, but just programming each gate individually manually by hand.
06:12:57 <ehird> Just use that subset of Verilog/VHDL.
06:13:04 <ehird> I'm sure they have such things at the lowest layer.
06:13:12 <ehird> Sounds like a world of pain.
06:14:43 <zzo38> I want to learn how each gates works individually, and then I can write macros in Forth.
06:15:03 <zzo38> And, each macro can be a subroutine to write stuff into memory or into a file, and then loads the FPGA
06:15:15 <zzo38> "Why do people think legalizing drugs is The Answer? I thought The Answer was 42." -- some quote from I don't know what (but it can be found in my game ASCMZXTO.MZX)
06:15:19 <ehird> Do you want to invent a replacement for electricity too because you didn't write it? :P
06:15:40 <ehird> Magnetic computer.
06:16:00 <zzo38> Yes, that is a interesting idea. Maybe a esolang can be made about magnetic computer.
06:16:08 <zzo38> I (or someone else) can add it to the idea list
06:16:28 <ehird> Also: Optical computer, air-based computer (think little balls pushed by fans)
06:16:44 <ehird> Don't think the latter can be TC; the former might be with quantumly stuff.
06:16:53 <zzo38> Those are also interesting idea.
06:16:54 <ehird> Magnetic computers probably can be TC (assuming infinite space)
06:17:22 <zzo38> Gravity computer has already been done in esolangs.
06:19:45 <ehird> Anyway, a magnetic computer seems to be the most obvious idea to work out of all of those.
06:20:08 <ehird> I can't really think of much you could do with crossing lasers, and the air doesn't count; you need electricity for the fans.
06:20:37 <ehird> But a magnetic computer seems simple: you can do chain reactions, and have magnets stay in states stably, plus you can keep them out of equilibrium.
06:20:49 <ehird> Also, it'd look cool.
06:21:27 <zzo38> Yes, I think it would be interesting to make.
06:23:04 <ehird> zzo38: it couldn't go perpetually though, could it?
06:23:09 <ehird> you'd need to set it off every so often
06:24:20 <zzo38> Of course, if you make a esolang you could assume it is automatically set it off
06:24:34 <ehird> i think for the basic shape of the computer it should be mounted on the exterior of a cylinder...
06:24:40 <zzo38> But an interpreter on a standard computer might have both option, one for manual and one for automatic
06:24:40 <ehird> that way with weights you can make it turn
06:24:47 <ehird> and interact with stationary things to the side of it
06:24:52 <ehird> depending on its turn state
06:24:54 <coppro> ok, more annoyances: the mute button operates in hardware :(
06:25:09 <ehird> zzo38: no need for an option
06:25:15 <ehird> nobody wants to sit there hitting "power"
06:25:39 <coppro> ehird: so I can't a) unmute by pressing it again (you have to use up/down for that) b) quickly check to see if I'm muted
06:25:53 <ehird> coppro: use another button
06:26:43 <ehird> Alt+F12 or something
06:26:50 <ehird> or heck, Windows+F12
06:27:11 <ehird> (pot kettle black!)
06:27:19 <coppro> heh... found a solutio
06:27:23 <zzo38> Mute, for what? Please tell me what you are muting?
06:27:28 <ehird> zzo38: his laptop.
06:27:51 -!- ehird has set topic: muting solutio for magnetic computers | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
06:28:17 <coppro> I'll use the Proprietary BloatWare(tm) Launch(r) Key(tm), which is right next to the volume control
06:28:40 <ehird> coppro: i hear that the thinkvantage stuff isn't too terrible, actually.
06:28:47 <ehird> but a whole key for it is ridiculous
06:28:53 <ehird> anyway, just hax the kb :)
06:30:17 * coppro just imagines the support call for that
06:31:08 <ehird> why would you call the presumably useless chinese support team anyway :P
06:31:37 <coppro> well, they've been great so far. They've told me that Lenovo's idea of a windows install disk is called a disk reimage
06:32:01 <ehird> some definition of great.
06:32:11 <ehird> "hello. yes, our product sucks. thanks!"
06:32:35 * coppro enjoys the conversation when he tries to return it
06:32:44 <ehird> return what, the laptop?
06:33:08 <coppro> it will be even tougher because I had to start it to find out they had no useful reinstall disk, in theory accepting the agreement
06:33:08 <ehird> coppro: I'm pretty sure the get-the-windows-tax-back stuff only works if you sue people like that guy.
06:33:18 <coppro> I'll have to explain to them how mistake works in contract law
06:33:30 <ehird> yeah, you don't expect all that to work do you
06:33:40 <ehird> you *did* agree to purchase a notebook with windows...
06:33:51 <coppro> no, the license agreement specifically says you can refund it
06:33:59 <coppro> it's possible, just tricky
06:34:04 <ehird> yeah, but the two contracts disagree
06:34:13 <ehird> the implicit one to lenovo and the one with microsoft
06:34:24 <ehird> the former is the far more visible one, it probably trumps the latter.
06:34:51 <zzo38> : INCL-ONCE IF BEGIN CHAR 0= UNTIL ELSE 1 CONSTANT THEN ;
06:35:11 <ehird> abbreviation? in my forth words?
06:35:23 <coppro> I assumed I'd get a useful method of install
06:35:23 <coppro> also, I'm a minor (whee!)
06:35:39 <ehird> coppro: what does being a minor have to do with anything?
06:35:44 <zzo38> ehird: Change it if you don't like it!
06:35:46 <coppro> ehird: contracts can't bind me!
06:36:02 <ehird> coppro: congratulations, you've never bought anything legally in your life.
06:36:19 <ehird> every company has given you something out of the goodness of your heart after you gave them money
06:36:21 <coppro> ehird: they still exist. I just can't be held to them... you can't either
06:36:39 <ehird> you're still bound by them, you just can't be dinged for not following them.
06:37:00 <coppro> I believe the legal term is 'voidable at the minor's option'
06:37:13 <ehird> "why no officer, please do note that I violated the windows EULA"
06:37:22 <ehird> "i am a broken man"
06:39:54 * coppro writes an email to MS explaining that I void the license agreement.
06:40:20 <ehird> coppro: your error is in believing the law's text has any relevance to the Law. :P
06:40:37 <coppro> ehird: Most of it is common law, actually
06:40:44 <ehird> coppro: also, by voiding it you also void the clause that lets you get a refund...
06:40:53 <ehird> or is that clause in lenovo's?
06:41:14 <coppro> ehird: no, it's part of the agreement prior to you agreeing to it
06:41:37 <ehird> this shit isn't gonna work btw
06:41:40 <zzo38> It doesn't matter, if part of it is voided, you cannot get a refund either in case they didn't allow that in the voiding process of the contract license itself.
06:41:45 <ehird> well, it probably would if you weren't a minor, but they'll just disregard you as a kiddie.
06:42:31 <coppro> zzo38: I believe it's actually two separate contracts on the same text
06:42:41 <coppro> licensing agreements are weird in any case
06:42:54 <ehird> EULAs have never been ruled to be valid
06:42:58 <ehird> so this is all just muddier and muddier.
06:43:00 <zzo38> coppro: O. Really? But, they are bound together though, isn't it?
06:43:06 <ehird> (and they have been ruled to be invalid in some places)
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06:43:55 <zzo38> EULAs may not be valid, but the refund still wouldn't be allowed if the rest of the contract that allowed you to get the refund has been violated, anyways. But, if the refund is a store refund instead, the refund might still be allowed.
06:43:59 <zzo38> But, I'm not quite sure.
06:44:13 <zzo38> It probably doesn't have a lot to do with the EULA, however.
06:44:33 <ehird> at the end of this he's going to get like $50 for >$50 worth in time
06:44:37 <ehird> and probably phone bills
06:44:47 <zzo38> Can anyone here do ANSI screen art?
06:45:58 <ehird> hmm the sata in the t60(p) is 1.5 Gbit.
06:46:06 <ehird> good thing I don't care about throughput
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06:46:51 <ehird> the latest bios hacking work seems to get like a bit over 3.5GiB memory out of it...
06:46:57 <ehird> which is acceptable i guess
06:48:23 <ehird> Mb = 1 000 000 bits. Mib = 1 024 000 bits. MB = 1 000 000 bytes. MiB = 1 024 000 bytes.
06:48:31 <ehird> Fuck yeah, case-differing units.
06:49:48 <fizzie> 1024000 is a very strange choice; are you sure you don't want 1048576 instead?
06:50:29 <ehird> Mb = 1 000 000 bits. Mib = 1 048 576 bits. MB = 1 000 000 bytes. MiB = 1 048 576 bytes.
06:51:26 <ehird> So, my internet connection is 8Mb/s, and I get about 800KiB/s in practice.
06:51:32 <ehird> (Still on the fence about KiB vs kiB.)
06:54:52 <ehird> Sigh, I'm getting tired of "lol linux is unusable" crap.
06:57:55 <fizzie> Spam subject: "Magic berry that will make you look like a princess." Er.
06:58:07 <fizzie> I'm not sure I want to be the prettiest princess around.
06:59:16 <augur> HEY GUYS HOWS IT GOIN
06:59:48 <augur> you're pretty princessish in general
07:00:41 <ehird> fizzie is the fizziest. fizzlest.
07:01:36 <fizzie> That's a bit fizzcessive, yes.
07:07:10 <ehird> today's xkcd: at least an original expression of an only-slightly-interesting thing everyone knows/
07:07:13 <ehird> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=974#comic
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07:17:46 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Crops_Kansas_AST_20010624.jpg?crop ;; this looks so unreal. backgrounded!
07:21:29 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: what, my face?
07:22:28 <ehird> that's what she irrigated. using a center pivot.
07:22:33 <ehird> anyway, it's pretty.
07:22:46 <ehird> especially the tilting
07:24:29 <fizzie> "Haha, your face, it's so inefficient!" has to be one of the strangest insults.
07:26:03 <fizzie> The problem with tiling window managers is I never really get to see my background image.
07:26:23 <ehird> funny. that's the problem i have with spawning windows like there's no tomorrow.
07:26:29 <ehird> why close when you can cover/
07:26:32 <ehird> *why close when you can cover?
07:27:00 <ehird> your face uses 78% of available land too, but I don't see anybody calling that too little.
07:27:17 <ehird> anyway, shut up, it makes pretty patterns.
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07:34:46 <bsmntbombdood_> it seems that arranging the circle hexagonally doesn't do any better than the square way
07:38:00 <fizzie> Strange; hexagonal packing should be denser than square: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CirclePacking.html
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07:42:42 <bsmntbombdood_> with both you can fit 1 unit circle inside each unit square
07:48:01 <fizzie> I would think the hexagonal packing even looks obviously denser: both have the same distance between circles in one row, but in hexagonal packing the rows are closer together. (Alternatively; if you draw that unit square around each circle, in square packing there's no overlap, while in hexagonal packing there is.)
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08:00:12 <bsmntbombdood_> draw a unit square through half of one of the circles, and the centers of two of it neighbors
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08:25:28 <mycroftiv> sphere packing in higher dimensions is pretty interesting stuff
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08:56:26 <ehird> Oh fucking hell, Tk on X11.
08:56:37 <ehird> Has a thing more hideous existed.
09:21:55 <augur> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1643#comic
09:22:21 <augur> this would be humorous if we werent already saturated with so many signals 24/7
09:25:35 <ehird> what's that supposed to mean
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09:26:24 <augur> radio signals, tv signals, cell phone signals, wifi signals, etc etc etc
09:26:30 <augur> all permeate the human body
09:26:42 <augur> and if you're in any place that gets any of those
09:26:52 <augur> then your body has them streaming through you all the time
09:27:14 <ehird> if it wasn't in some way inaccurate
09:27:17 <ehird> they wouldn't call it a comic
09:27:21 <ehird> they'd call it a textbook
09:27:25 <augur> its not inaccurate
09:27:49 <augur> it's just oblivious to the fact that its presuppositions arent correct!
09:28:16 <ehird> i am sure mr weiner will be interested in your complaint
09:29:18 <ehird> for instance augur
09:29:18 <ehird> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1647#comic
09:29:21 <ehird> this would never happen
09:29:26 <ehird> therefore it is not funny
09:29:47 <augur> that makes no sense
09:29:49 <ehird> its presuppositions, so to speak
09:29:52 <augur> this is not about what would or wouldnt happen
09:30:09 <ehird> 's about the mismatch of comic reality : real reality
09:30:15 <augur> yes, except thats the problem
09:30:24 <augur> there IS no mismatch in the comic i linked to
09:30:26 <ehird> it's called humour
09:30:36 <ehird> augur: dude, stfu.
09:30:37 <augur> thats precisely my point
10:02:08 <mycroftiv> im never bored, but thats because im in a state of constant low grade panic over the statistical arguments for the relatively short expected lifetime of a technological civilization from a cosmological perspective
10:03:04 <ehird> it doesn't really matter if you don't survive.
10:03:51 <mycroftiv> my selfish genes want to transmit their information content into the future though, and the memetic equivalents that i perceive as my value structures want beethoven's music to still be played in 100 billion years
10:04:46 <ehird> it seems likely to me that a technological civilization can either undergo a technological singularity, and survive, or collapse
10:05:02 <ehird> that is to say, singularity or bunk!
10:05:05 <mycroftiv> and the evidence from looking at the universe is pretty discouraging
10:05:40 <ehird> though if we have a singularity it'll be almost certain that we make music many orders of a magnitude better than beethoven very quickly
10:05:44 <mycroftiv> if civilizations could actually stay on the energy manipulation and population curve that weve been on, there would be multiple 'god class' civilizations in the observable universe, probably
10:05:52 <ehird> and so that's probably not conductive to your goal
10:06:10 <mycroftiv> that would be nice, i for one welcome our artificially intelligent compositional overlords creating algorithmic music of heart stopping beauty
10:06:29 <ehird> technically those overlords would be, um, us.
10:07:08 <ehird> anyway, civilization is basically made up of idiots because people are idiots.
10:07:40 <ehird> a singularity is probably the only even vaguely easy way to rapidly self-improve our intelligence, and thus become less idiotic
10:07:52 <ehird> so the "singularity or bust" theory isn't very arbitrary
10:08:00 <mycroftiv> only relatively speaking, compared to the average lobster we are pretty smart, and a lobster is a genius compared with a hydrogen molecule
10:08:07 <ehird> well, more specifically we need the unidioticness to manage and control resources
10:08:19 <ehird> everything beyond that is mostly irrelevant as far as maintaining a society goes. although culture helps.
10:08:39 <ehird> mycroftiv: yah, but lobsters don't cover a planet and then start to destroy it without coming up with a way to get off it.
10:08:44 <ehird> they're too stupid to be dangerous.
10:08:47 <ehird> we're too stupid not to be.
10:08:49 <mycroftiv> yeah despite my psychological affinity for cultural productions like music i agree that we need fewere musicians and more energy researchers, etc
10:09:01 <ehird> or AI researchers :P
10:09:06 <ehird> "if in doubt, offload the problem!"
10:09:38 <mycroftiv> i think we already have emergent AI in the real world, we just dont realize it because its operating at a higher hierarchical organizational scale than human individuals
10:09:56 <ehird> i think we have what could suggest future cognitive structures
10:10:04 <ehird> but it just isn't there yet
10:10:12 <ehird> or at least, it's dumber than a rock
10:10:22 <ehird> see, ants make up a smart ant colony
10:10:34 <ehird> but ants aren't actively stupid causing them to work against the colony
10:10:38 <mycroftiv> im kind of a minimalist/operationalist when it comes to AI so from my perspective weve had emergent artificial intelligences embedded within our symbol systems on higher levels for a long time
10:10:42 <ehird> they're just not clever enough to achieve things themselves
10:10:53 <mycroftiv> but that it has been incredibly accelerated due to the digital revolution
10:10:54 <ehird> we, however, are dumb enough to be actively hostile, intentional or not, to the hivemind
10:11:25 <mycroftiv> well, i have a pretty perverse belief that we should be actively fighting the hivemind because the emergent entity has interests that our contrary to ours as individuals
10:11:57 <ehird> mycroftiv: that's the thing, isn't it: it's kind of hard to make a hivemind Friendly AI
10:12:04 <ehird> because you can't exactly program it at the top level...
10:12:24 <mycroftiv> thats why you better program the Three Laws of Robotics into your new OS
10:12:52 <ehird> mycroftiv: please say you just joked
10:13:04 <ehird> i am tired of people thinking the three laws are suitable or helpful in any way :(
10:13:14 <mycroftiv> since the 3 laws are not algorithmically formulatable its obviously a joke
10:13:38 <ehird> they're really terrible laws; evil is perfectly possible with them and it inhibits much good
10:14:41 <mycroftiv> are you implying that the pop cultural versions of classic sci-fi concepts are not actually a suitable organizational framework for the society of the future?
10:14:58 <ehird> you wouldn't believe that things not too abstracted from that have actually been said in seriousness, would you.
10:15:01 <mycroftiv> as a jedi knight in training whos planning on attending starfleet academy soon and then going to work for the gray lensmen, i am upset
10:15:22 <ehird> (i would have used "deeply offended" instead of "upset" though)
10:15:46 <ehird> mycroftiv: another common idiocy - "Strong AI? Haven't you ever seen The Terminator?"
10:15:54 <ehird> yep, that piece of fiction is so... accurate? true?
10:17:07 <mycroftiv> i already suspect you of being an AI agent ehird, my superiors in the Time Corps are linked in and monitoring this channel
10:17:31 <mycroftiv> your disinformation campaign wont succeed, weve beaten you before - IN THE FUTURE
10:17:37 <ehird> i'm a hivemind with exactly one mind
10:17:56 <ehird> ...give or take an internet and a sphere of people
10:18:09 <mycroftiv> no i actually believe the human race has already lost control, since the late 1800s or so
10:18:17 <mycroftiv> didnt even need digital tech to do it
10:18:59 <mycroftiv> i place the time of transition of society run for human beings to society run on the behalf of the emergent structures controlling it to occur at the time of mechanical clock synchronization by the railroads, pretty much
10:20:23 <ehird> i wonder if post-singularity societies sit around, going
10:20:23 <ehird> so we're improving every planck time
10:20:23 <ehird> this is really boring, a huge vast expanse of all uh
10:20:23 <ehird> we've been in this thing
10:20:23 <ehird> when do we get to the next thing
10:20:24 <ehird> (the next thing happens to be using time as an additional spatial dimension to improve even faster :-P)
10:20:59 <mycroftiv> have you read accelerando by charlie stross? available under open source license and the best novel i know of inspired by singularity ideas
10:21:31 <mycroftiv> i think his hypothesis that matrioshka brain civilizations are too bound to their star to undertake interstellar travel might actually be correct
10:21:39 <ehird> anyone putting any kind of restriction on their work clearly isn't a real singularitarian though :P
10:21:42 <mycroftiv> that would be a nice resolution of the fermi paradox
10:22:03 <mycroftiv> eh, the modern singularity people dont seem to view it in the old fashioned mckenna way anymore that much
10:22:22 <ehird> what inferrences are you making from my line
10:22:23 <mycroftiv> ok, well, gotta give some background on this
10:22:31 <ehird> how did you get from
10:22:36 <ehird> <ehird> anyone putting any kind of restriction on their work clearly isn't a real singularitarian though :P
10:22:41 <ehird> eh, the modern singularity people dont seem to view it in the old fashioned mckenna way anymore that much
10:23:15 <mycroftiv> my first contact with the idea of technological singularity was via robert anton wilson when i was a teenager back in the 80s, in his book 'cosmic trigger'
10:23:35 <ehird> the way I meant it was that any society-enforce restrictions on digital information at all is inherently antithetical to the singularity
10:24:16 <mycroftiv> and his reference was the mckenna brothers who thought technological change would accelerate to the point where we basically became godlike intelligences (he also linked it to that mayan calendar bullshit long before it became pop cultural, i never expected that shit to make it mainstream)
10:24:30 <ehird> Wow, Colin Percival of FreeBSD fame entered university at 13.
10:25:03 <mycroftiv> the modern formulation of singularity theory backs off from claims like 'achieving godlikeness' with that wishy-washy 'singularity is the point at which technology causes the future to be unpredictable on the basis of what has gone before'
10:25:17 <mycroftiv> which is a nice kind of mathematically/relativistically inspired way of putting it i guess, but its a non-claim really
10:25:18 <ehird> There's multiple branches of singularity theory, fwiw.
10:25:27 <ehird> It's very hard to predict anything by its very nature.
10:26:18 <ehird> Personally I think the most likely way for it to happen (as a traditional, separate-AI singularity) is: AI starts up, takes over everything, develops mind uploading, offers it, the poor sods who don't want their mind uploaded are SOL
10:26:46 <ehird> (I imagine that totally self-improving the brain without limit is a harder to develop with a physical brain than both developing mind uploading and self-improvement software working in digital.)
10:27:08 <ehird> by SOL I mean exactly the same as before :P
10:27:18 <ehird> prolly including the religious as they waddle around waiting for god to come defeat this evil satan.
10:28:07 <ehird> I guess "massively self-improved uploaded minds" is pretty close to "achieving godliness in the fabric of the cosmos", but it's less bullshitty.
10:28:07 <mycroftiv> i cant really hypothesize too well without an answer to the question of whether or not the informational content and functioning of the brain can be accurately simulated with significant abstraction away from the wetware
10:28:22 <ehird> If it can't be, let us change it so it can.
10:28:27 <mycroftiv> well, a lot of the old old fashioned singularity stuff was based much more on energy manipulation than on information processing
10:28:56 <ehird> Anyway, it's easier to flip a bit than to mess with a gooey blob, so even if it can't be the uploading is a plus.
10:28:56 <mycroftiv> the old curves they traced were tracing the amount of mass-energy that could be manipulated technologically
10:28:58 <mycroftiv> and saying those curves extrapolated to galaxy-scaled rebuilding and restructuring pretty soon
10:29:17 <mycroftiv> thats mostly been abandoned in favor of the much more sensible AI based scenarios
10:29:29 <ehird> Amusingly, throughout the whole singularity meme, Vernor Vinge, its originator, has seemed to kept one of the levellest heads about it.
10:29:51 <mycroftiv> i dont consider him the originator, i would say it goes back to at least Teilhard de Chardin
10:30:08 <ehird> mycroftiv: every idea has predecessors
10:30:51 <ehird> but he wrote the piece that named it, defined it as one single idea and predicted things about it
10:30:51 <ehird> and is widely credited with originating it
10:30:51 <ehird> good enough for me
10:32:02 <mycroftiv> well, not good enough for me, but i guess its a semantic issue, i really think the exact concept of the singularity was well expressed by the mckenna brothers in the 70s
10:32:35 <ehird> yes, the basic concept is relatively obvious, I'd say. but without Vinge, any discussions about it would look very, very different than they do today.
10:33:14 <mycroftiv> yes, i dont think it would have made it out of the cult/esoteric circuit probably
10:33:26 <ehird> it arguably hasn't.
10:33:59 <ehird> in fact when thinking about the singularity I often have to step back and go "wait, wait, like *everyone* considers this seriously crazy. am I thinking sanely about this?"
10:34:06 <mycroftiv> well, i cant really assess, im honestly not part of my society so i have no clue whats mainstream
10:34:23 <mycroftiv> or rather 'my society' is an extremely nonstandard subset
10:34:46 <mycroftiv> since this channel for instance is a reference to me for 'what other people think about things'
10:34:55 <mycroftiv> and you/we are probably atypical, statistically
10:35:19 <mycroftiv> ehird, when i talk to other other people, you get to be the hand-wavy 'everyone says'
10:35:30 <ehird> what, me in particular?
10:35:48 <ehird> oh, I've heard of this Charles Stross' novels before.
10:35:51 <mycroftiv> uh, not specially-specifically, but probably the next time im talking to person Y about tech singularity, ill say
10:36:03 <mycroftiv> "everyone says vernor vinge is the most important figure in the modern construction of the concept
10:36:28 <ehird> augur: this is a channel for talking.
10:36:35 <ehird> you can gtfo if you'd prefer silence
10:36:36 <augur> it is not for talking
10:36:50 <augur> dont make me rape you, ehird
10:37:06 <ehird> how can you rape an immortal uploaded mind.
10:37:09 <ehird> that doesn't even make any sense.
10:37:14 <ehird> oops, that's confidential
10:37:54 <augur> i delight in the knowledge that i probably just broke like 10 pretty serious laws
10:38:15 <ehird> i'm pretty sure joking "don't make me rape you" to a 14 year old over the internet isn't illegal.
10:38:20 <ehird> well, maybe in the usa.
10:38:21 <mycroftiv> me too, im glad its not just me - so whats your tip for getting blood off a chainsaw?
10:38:26 <augur> it probably is in the US
10:38:36 <ehird> mycroftiv: i think you'll have to ask hans reiser[1]
10:38:45 <ehird> 1. http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/so-i-married-a-kernel-programmer
10:39:24 <ehird> i don't like how the marquee there doesn't blink nowadays because of stupid anti-blink fascist browsers :(
10:39:27 <mycroftiv> ive decided i really need to set up a surveillance system to monitor myself, so i can prove im not a terrorist or murderer
10:40:07 <ehird> i don't think that will be necessary.
10:40:40 <mycroftiv> since i fit every profile of sociopathic unabomber types, i really want to document what im doing and when so when somebody in my town does something evil and the computer systems flag me as a statistical match for the profile, i can document myself
10:41:11 <Asztal> which browser ignores <blink>? :(
10:41:14 <ehird> why is it that people have such an overinflated opinion of how uncommon they are. :)
10:41:21 <ehird> and i think webkit
10:41:35 <Asztal> are you sure it's not just browser.blink_allowed = false?
10:41:45 <Asztal> I thought it worked by default.
10:42:04 <mycroftiv> actually its the commonality thats the problem, the vast proportion of false positives
10:42:13 <ehird> Asztal: well not in epiphany at least
10:43:06 <ehird> mycroftiv: here's an aspect of the unabomber you don't (presumably) fit: you don't mail bomb people
10:43:11 <ehird> Asztal: they're pretty.
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10:45:23 <mycroftiv> exactly, which is why it can only be beneficial to me to document what im doing
10:45:29 <mycroftiv> kind of a pascal's wager type thing
10:45:40 <ehird> i think that's a little over-paranoid
10:45:43 <ehird> better things to do with your time
10:45:54 <mycroftiv> since the other stuff i do with my time is plan 9 programming, are you sure?
10:46:10 <ehird> well, that at least is possibly amusing to someone other than yourself :P
10:47:24 <mycroftiv> given what we know (and i mean the factual stuff that has been publicly announced/admitted, not the crazy tinfoil hat stuff) about data collection and computerized analysis, a certain concern over how you are going to look from a statistical point of view seems to me to be warranted
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11:02:41 <ehird> "oh and the internet isnt science, its tech.
11:02:41 <ehird> dick head" --YouTube comments
11:05:20 <fizzie> People around here tend to put cartoon printouts in their office doors; if I had my own room, instead of this shared thing, I'd probably put the first row of http://dresdencodak.com/2009/09/22/caveman-science-fiction/ up. It describes our research well.
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11:12:57 <ehird> i wonder if i could like, solder the t60(p) mobo to make it support the full 4gb of ram :)
11:14:48 <ehird> "Implications of the Turing completeness of reaction-diffusion models, informed by GPGPU simulations on an XBox 360: Cardiac arrhythmias, re-entry and the Halting problem"
11:14:55 <ehird> i so appreciate my heart like 10x more now
11:14:59 <ehird> also the xbox 360.
11:15:17 <mycroftiv> ok, im googling that text to find out wtf this is
11:16:04 <ehird> http://igoro.com/archive/human-heart-is-a-turing-machine-research-on-xbox-360-shows-wait-what/ layman's explanation
11:16:10 <ehird> http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/79271/turing.pdf peedy eff
11:16:24 <ehird> i think it means our hearts are turing complete or something.
11:16:29 <ehird> well, presumably with finite memory.
11:17:31 <mycroftiv> the argument is fascinating, it seems to rest on the idea that turing completeness is a barrier to predictability due to the halting problem, but i need to read this in detail because that basic argument seems a bit specious to me
11:17:42 * ehird spurts liquid out of mouth
11:17:47 <ehird> mycroftiv: you read the whole paper that quickly?
11:18:01 <mycroftiv> no, thats basically the abstract...
11:18:47 <ehird> well you'll have to understand cardiology, xbox 360 optimisation, differential equations, turing completeness and shading languages
11:18:48 <fizzie> ehird: Based on his(?) paper-reading speed, I suspect one of those immortal uploaded minds.
11:19:13 <mycroftiv> i think i have a decent grasp on about 50% of that stuff
11:20:05 <mycroftiv> differential equations are pretty easy to *understand* but they are challenging to 'work with' -fortunately when you are just reading the paper the paper's authors have done that stuff for you
11:20:41 <ehird> "This is a fairly standard way of doing comments in BF." ;; why isn't everyone who says such things in here already? :P
11:22:25 <mycroftiv> hmm, there is a weird circularity about this paper
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11:22:52 <mycroftiv> the thing is that what is being studied for turing completeness is the computational model of reaction diffusion
11:23:38 <mycroftiv> so you could make an argument that just because the computer model you create is turing complete, that doesnt necessarily prove anything fundamental about the physical system being modeled, unless you can prove they are fully isometric, which of course isnt possible with any squishy biological systems
11:23:51 <ehird> STOP RUINING MY FANTASTISE
11:24:06 <mycroftiv> since this involves fluid dynamics, you are instantly in the domain of the navier-stokes equations to begin with, and those arent even proved non-singular, thats one of the big prizes
11:24:16 <ehird> anyway we clearly just need to fuck with someone's heart to see if it works.
11:25:36 <mycroftiv> really though - hmm...since turing completeness is so minimal...i mean cant all physical systems 'do arithmetic' so to speak? ive seen this topic addressed elsewhere actually, i wonder if these guys...lemme check their citations
11:26:43 <ehird> http://www.linusakesson.net/files/lft_craft.avi this is great
11:26:59 <mycroftiv> this bibliography is great, you see a citation for 4 dudes paper 'real-time memory on an excitable field' and the next citation is 'prince of persia', ubisoft
11:29:36 <mycroftiv> well, this paper is great, but i think their final conclusion based on the halting problem is totally incorrect
11:29:56 <mycroftiv> the argument is technically correct but they ignore something all programmers should know
11:30:23 <mycroftiv> just because the halting problem is theoretically indecidable algorithmically and in general doesnt mean that you cant actually answer it in practice for a huge number of programs...
11:30:33 <ehird> that's still damn hard
11:30:53 <ehird> also, how did the C64 address 64K of RAM? 8 bits = 0.25KiB
11:31:01 <ehird> I guess it used a larger memory bus thingy.
11:31:16 <mycroftiv> they are saying that because what goes on in the heart is a superset of a utm, the goal of predicting arythmias and stuff like that runs into the halting problem
11:31:30 <ehird> bullshit, the state is finite and probably small
11:31:31 <mycroftiv> which is true as far as it goes, but that doesnt go very far
11:31:36 <ehird> you can just check to see if it repeats :P
11:32:28 <mycroftiv> yeah i think the fact is that godel and turing type 'problem cases' are very much shown to be atypical of 'generic' situations for the most part
11:33:04 <mycroftiv> for the same reason that a working programmer isnt 'hung up' by the halting problem in doing their coding, i doubt working cardiologists or heart researchers will be stuck because of the turing completenesss
11:33:26 <ehird> anyone know about the c64?
11:33:51 <mycroftiv> from hands on experience yes, but not too much technically despite childhood enthusiasms
11:34:12 <ehird> <ehird> that's still damn hard
11:34:12 <ehird> also, how did the C64 address 64K of RAM? 8 bits = 0.25KiB
11:34:12 <ehird> I guess it used a larger memory bus thingy.
11:34:46 <mycroftiv> there were quite a few tricks and hacks used in all that old old pc hardware
11:35:05 <mycroftiv> i remember my family's apple ][ had an expansion board that let it use 128k in some weird bank switched mode
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11:36:19 <ehird> hmm, maybe they just addressed by memory-value, where memory-value = 16 bits
11:36:28 <ehird> doubt it though, prolly just a different-sized memory bus
11:37:23 <mycroftiv> heres some delicious nostalgia http://sta.c64.org/cbm64mem.html
11:38:15 <mycroftiv> i well remember doing direct memory poking to operate the sid chip for audio sltuff
11:38:29 * ehird gets itchy to write a proper multitasking OS for the c64
11:39:00 <mycroftiv> im pretty sure the hobbyist magazines would print musical themes in the form of poke sequences
11:39:59 <mycroftiv> what was the gui os for c64, um geos i think?
11:40:38 <ehird> afaik no c64 OSes try to do what windows did for dos; multiplex "native" apps
11:40:42 <ehird> of course, that's ridiculously hard
11:41:19 <mycroftiv> id like to see a c64 based hypervisor for virtualized vic20s and PETs
11:50:49 <fizzie> C64 has a 16 bits wide address bus, yes.
11:51:25 <ehird> laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame
11:51:52 <fizzie> The registers are only 8 bits wide, though. There's a couple of different addressing modes there.
11:52:12 <ehird> real men use 10-bit architectures
11:52:21 <ehird> it's divisible by two, it's a whole kilo of ram, what else do you fucking need
11:53:43 <fizzie> Many instructions support absolute addressing, with a two-byte address following the one-byte opcode; and then there are two indirect modes that read a two-byte pointer from the zero page (memory locations 0..255) and use that.
11:53:56 <ehird> in fact you know what, use a fucking 9-bit architecture and have a separate ROM
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11:54:00 <ehird> to store the program in
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11:54:25 <zzo38> I added one in anarchy golf, I hope there is not a mistake.
11:55:07 <ehird> The only issue is that I have no idea what I'm meant to do :P
11:55:10 <fizzie> There's still quite a lot of kludgery in the C16. The video chip (VIC-II) has only 14 address bits, and the top two bits are generated by (iirc) two outputs from the CIA chip.
11:55:24 <ehird> to hell with the SID
11:55:30 <ehird> unneeded complexity
11:55:55 <fizzie> Certainly there's probably a lot kludgery in the C16 too, but I've never used one.
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11:57:26 <ehird> The C16 looks like a target for demoscenery
11:58:20 <fizzie> It's not very popular; all the action happens on the VIC-20 and C64.
11:58:26 <ehird> fizzie: http://www.commodore16.com/index.php/component/content/article/49-how-to/327-creating-amazing-c16plus-4-images.html
11:58:31 <ehird> It can do more colours than the C64.
12:00:57 <fizzie> No sprites, though. (There's been quite a lot of trickery involving the VIC-II sprites, since they can be used to generate interrupts.)
12:01:52 <ehird> there aren't enough fun C64-era computers
12:01:55 <fizzie> And "more colours without flickering" would probably be more accurate; people do the "get a mixed colour by alternating a pixel between two colours every frame" stuff on the C64.
12:02:16 <ehird> Yes, but you could flicker this too.
12:02:51 <fizzie> Sure, but why on earth would you want more than 121 colours?
12:04:28 <ehird> You could almost run monkey island's DOS version with 242 colours.
12:11:06 <fizzie> A still image is going to be probably all you can manage with the full palette, anyway; the whole FLI mess is pretty demanding of resources. (The standard multicolor mode only lets you use a four-color palette -- of which one is the global background color -- in each 4x8-pixel cell of the 160x200 multicolor mode.)
12:12:21 <ehird> Wonder how many FPS you can get.
12:12:45 <ehird> You could use properties of the eye to keep a certain colour longer than an exaggerated blink, to try and overcome the low FPS.
12:15:21 <fizzie> Oh, and the frame-flicker-color-mixing thing on the C64 has another upside: you can use the hardware scrolling register to shift the second image vertically by half a pixel (the 160x200 multicolor mode pixels are built out of two 320x200 pixels) so you get sort-of 320x200 resolution too. Except that color of a single pixel in frame A is then mixed with the right and left halves of two pixels in frame B.
12:15:32 <fizzie> s/vertically/horizontally/
12:15:42 <fizzie> (I am a thinko today.)
12:17:15 <ehird> fizzie: Take that, and hook a C64 up to an LCD.
12:17:26 <ehird> (b) the most confusing display technology ever
12:19:57 <fizzie> At least the C128 had a digital video-out for the second graphics chipset; in 1985, quite a bit before the proliferation of DVI. (Okay, so it's not that impressive when you consider that the EGA monitor connector was digital too.)
12:20:31 <ehird> I mean, with that image-shifting plus the weird pixel situation, subpixels are just going to make it even more confusing.
12:20:50 <ehird> You could use it to make something shake really flickery, right? Like, only shaking one pixel, but shaking many subpixels. So fluider.
12:23:48 <ehird> fizzie: what's your favourite 8-bit computer?
12:24:13 <fizzie> I'm going to have to go with the C128, since it's the only one I actually own.
12:24:27 <fizzie> It's pretty high-end as far as these things go, though.
12:24:34 <ehird> It doesn't really count if it's easier now, does it.
12:24:43 <mycroftiv> i vote apple ][ for the best overall software library
12:24:57 <ehird> mycroftiv: i mean more from a purist point of view
12:25:09 <mycroftiv> oh tech wise you mean? design etc?
12:25:09 <ehird> well, not from is it good as much as nostalgia, but not due to the software base
12:25:19 <ehird> just like "oh well I like the apple ][ a lot."
12:26:37 <fizzie> The C128 doesn't really make things much "easier" w.r.t. C64 (which I guess is a reasonably high-end computer already); about the only thing it's got going is double the memory size, and even so only half of it is addressable at any one time.
12:27:35 <mycroftiv> to me the later revisions on the c64 platform didnt quite do enough to make them very exciting
12:27:35 <ehird> way too much memory. you could even forget about compact spacing.
12:28:10 <fizzie> Well, the unexpanded VIC-20 (about 4K of RAM) has a certain charm too.
12:28:26 <mycroftiv> oh yeah the vic and even the pet are great
12:28:30 <fizzie> And the PET is so incredibly sci-fi.
12:28:33 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Commodore_PET2001.jpg
12:28:42 <mycroftiv> they had those in my elementary school and we made fun of them
12:29:19 <ehird> The VIC-20 is basically a retarded C64, isn't it?
12:29:23 <mycroftiv> i believe i still own an original sherlock holmes fanfic i wrote as a kid that was done on a PET and printed, and its notable because the 'hang down' characters dont work
12:29:30 <ehird> That PET looks sexually retro.
12:30:09 <mycroftiv> yeah you can just see the girl with the bullet bra and beehive hairdo wearing tight white vinyl clothes and hear the 70s jazz-funk soundtrack
12:30:22 <ehird> Does the PET even have graphics mode?
12:30:45 <mycroftiv> no, i think all the 'graphics' were done with graphical text characters, ascii art style
12:30:54 <mycroftiv> but they made special character set for doin graphics with little diagonal lines etc
12:31:54 <ehird> shame. it looks really sweet, but you can't really have a fun demo time without gfx
12:31:59 <mycroftiv> i think that character set carried through to the c64 even
12:32:07 <ehird> http://www.atariarchives.org/cgp/images/img188-1.JPG
12:32:09 <ehird> what's this then eh
12:32:17 <ehird> This book shows you how to create your own video graphics on the new personal computers being sold across the country. It is oriented toward the Radio Shack TRS-80, the Commodore PET 2001, and the Apple II home computers, and it is geared to the user who wants to know the concepts and techniques for drawing pictures, making graphs and charts, animating shapes and objects, creating mandalas and dazzlers, and just about any application of the visual arts tha
12:32:18 <ehird> t you can imagine.
12:33:03 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_CBM-II
12:33:11 <mycroftiv> wikipedia seems to think the pet couldnt bitmap
12:33:21 <fizzie> Technically speaking the VIC-20 does not have a "graphics mode" either, but you can point the character generator at RAM memory and redefine the character shapes, which sort-of gives you a graphics mode, except messier.
12:33:22 <ehird> The P series used the VIC-II 40-column color video chip like the C64
12:33:34 <ehird> so we have a PET with a C64 video chip here
12:33:38 <ehird> to boot, it's obscure
12:33:45 <ehird> unfortunately, it has a hueg 128KiB of RAM
12:34:38 <mycroftiv> aha, i was right about those graphical character symbols...called 'petscii' apparently which is fucking ADORABLE
12:35:09 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Atari8.png
12:35:12 <fizzie> Yes, petscii's still there in the C128 and anything.
12:35:14 <ehird> I just became an Atari 8-bit fan
12:36:12 <ehird> http://oldcomputers.net/atari400.html
12:36:35 <ehird> 320x192 monochrome
12:36:48 <ehird> released in fucking 1979
12:37:04 <ehird> also: [[the Atari 400 has an "advanced child-proof design featuring pressure-sensitive, wipe-clean keyboard"]]
12:37:12 <fizzie> More power than in the VIC-20. :p
12:37:15 <ehird> is it just me, or was the C64 like super-obsolete before it came out???
12:37:21 <ehird> this awesome thing came out in 1979
12:38:02 <ehird> not sure it has audio though
12:38:20 <ehird> http://oldcomputers.net/atari800.html
12:38:30 <ehird> bigger brother to it, same basic specs but with more slots and stuff
12:38:40 <ehird> "The Atari 800 has multiple special purpose co-processors for sound and graphics to take the load off of the 6502 CPU, and it has sprites and collision-detection built into its hardware, so it is an excellent game machine. "
12:38:45 <ehird> i'm one of two opinions
12:38:49 <ehird> (a) way too easy, 400 is better
12:38:57 <ehird> (b) how could we abuse that for crazy purposes?
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12:41:28 <ehird> any opin'yunz on that thing?
12:41:39 <fizzie> Awesomity (or at least obsoletity, or market approval) is not always about the specs, though. To quote, "the greatest competitors to the C64 were the Atari 8-bit 400 and 800 -- [which] were very similar in hardware terms, but used custom chips for graphics and sound, and so were very expensive to build. -- One key to the C64's success was Commodore's aggressive marketing tactics, and they were quick to exploit the relative price/performance divisions betwee
12:41:39 <fizzie> n its competitors with a series of television commercials after the C64's launch in late 1982."
12:41:50 <fizzie> I'm not really an Atari person, I don't have an opinion there.
12:42:15 <fizzie> But the C64 does hardware sprites and collision-detection too, so I wouldn't go so far as to call it obsolete.
12:42:29 <fizzie> Er, or maybe I could call it obsolete nowadays, but anyway.
12:42:40 <ehird> Was I calling anything obsolete?
12:42:55 <fizzie> <ehird> is it just me, or was the C64 like super-obsolete before it came out???
12:43:12 <fizzie> With three question marks and all.
12:43:15 <ehird> well yeah, cause it was 3 years after the atari 400/800 and terribly similar
12:44:17 <fizzie> Just being similar to products already on the market doesn't really mean obsolete; though certainly it wasn't terribly innovative on the tech side.
12:44:59 <fizzie> "In January 1983, Commodore offered a $100 rebate in the United States on the purchase of a C64 to anyone trading in another computer or video game console. To take advantage of this rebate, some mail-order dealers and retailers offered a Timex Sinclair 1000 for as little as $10 with purchase of a C64, so the consumer could send the TS1000 to Commodore, collect the rebate, and pocket the difference; Timex Corporation departed the marketplace within a year."
12:45:02 <ehird> yes, but the tech was *old*
12:46:57 <ehird> it seems like the apple ii was the first coloured computer on the market
12:49:06 <fizzie> Is that politically correct? Shouldn't you say "a pigment-rich computer" or something?
12:53:03 <mycroftiv> the c64 was amazing in terms of price/performance more than anything else
12:53:38 <ehird> actually no, I don't think so
12:53:57 <mycroftiv> look at the historical prices for it vs its competitors
12:54:13 <ehird> atari 400 $549; .8MHz faster chip, 56KiB less base RAM, similar rest of specs... in 1979
12:54:20 <ehird> the C64 only cost something like $150 to make
12:54:30 <ehird> it wasn't anything special
12:55:34 <mycroftiv> you cant compare 4-8k machine with 64k machines in terms of what they deliver
12:55:44 <ehird> yes, but ram dropped in price
12:55:57 <ehird> the fact is that the atari 400 wasn't wildly, wildly off base... three years ago
12:56:02 <ehird> in a particularly rapid period of computing history
12:56:14 <ehird> and indeed it shows, in that the C64 cost under 200 bux to make but they sold it for 500
12:56:29 <mycroftiv> price when newly released is far from the most important
12:56:36 <mycroftiv> machines had much longer life cycles then
12:56:50 <mycroftiv> the 8 bit era was most of the 80s for home users
12:56:54 <ehird> gggggggggggggggggggggggggggg
12:57:03 <mycroftiv> check out the price of the c64 vs its competition over its historical sale period
12:57:15 <ehird> i guess you're right.
12:57:24 <ehird> the chip kinda sucked though
12:57:27 <ehird> not even any multiplication
12:57:41 <fizzie> It's the same 6502 everyone else had. :p
12:58:00 <mycroftiv> i think about 1984 was probably the high point for it, since then it was selling really cheap but there wasnt really anything superior in the home market until you got to stuff $1000 plus
13:00:43 <fizzie> Personally I rather like Z80 more. At least it does 16-bit operations natively (you can pair up some of the 8-bit registers), and it's got a lot more registers; A, B, C, D, E, H, L compared to A, X, Y in the 6502.
13:01:01 <fizzie> That's why I <3 the C128: it's got them both, built-in.
13:01:41 <ehird> ... dual processors? really?
13:01:58 <fizzie> Well, err... you can't run them simultaneously, of course. :p
13:02:15 <fizzie> The Z80 was there mostly for CP/M compatibility.
13:02:17 <ehird> c64 demos run on the 6502, OS code runs on the Z80 watching it...
13:02:59 <fizzie> There's only one memory bus, after all.
13:03:59 <fizzie> They already share with the display chip; three's a crowd, after all.
13:05:11 <ehird> fizzie: do you think it'd be theoretically possible to run them both at once?
13:05:42 <fizzie> There's no logic on the motherboard to do bus arbitration, so not without some probably fairly extensive hardware mods.
13:08:12 <fizzie> Sharing the memory bus with the VIC-II already halves the (theoretically 4 MHz) clock speed of the Z80; people did complain about the CP/M running slowly because of that.
13:08:33 <ehird> but i want my damn OS cpu.
13:09:58 <fizzie> A 2 MHz Z80 is (according to a rough estimate) equivalent to a 0.5 MHz 8502 (the 6502 clone in C128), since the latter does some pipelining.
13:10:18 <fizzie> "Because of the pipelined architecture of the 8502, a 1 MHz 8502 is approximately comparable in speed with a 4 MHz Z80. However, on the C128, the Z80 only runs at 4 MHz half the time giving an effective clock speed of 2 MHz. This means that the Z80 is only about half as fast as the 8502 (only about a fourth as fast when the 8502 is in 2 MHz mode)."
13:10:41 <ehird> task switching is fast dood :P
13:12:06 <fizzie> Some of the C128 BIOS routines run on the 8502 even in CP/M mode; the Z80 writes arguments to some predefined memory location, wakes up the 8502 and halts; then the 8502 does the work, writes return values to memory, and wakes up the Z80 again.
13:12:46 <ehird> you can't really tell the 8502 to do things when a bitchin' demo is running
13:14:11 <fizzie> Multitasking a *demo* and anything else doesn't really sound feasible, since those things are so very close to the hardware. Feel free to try, of course.
13:14:45 <ehird> C64 demos, naturally. :P
13:15:03 <ehird> It's faster and stuff, you see.
13:15:14 <ehird> fizzie: But I'd need both chips whirring at once to do it.
13:15:22 <ehird> Otherwise that demo will just shit all over everything.
13:16:36 <fizzie> With no memory protection, shared interrupts with no routing, it will probably shit all over everything in any case, even if you could get the Z80 running too. (And the bus cycles lost to the Z80 would probably mess up all timing-related stuff in the demo.)
13:16:56 <ehird> You ruin my hopes; dreams; mayonnaise avocado whip.
13:18:18 <fizzie> Still, while you're doing to necessary hardware hacking to get both CPUs running, you could add a kilobyte or so of Z80-only RAM and some sort of programmable logic chip to route interrupt lines; using that (and the C128 memory banking C64 demos probably don't expect) you might even get something done.
13:19:14 <ehird> Hardware hacking is sort of cheating, though.
13:22:17 <ehird> What does warey even mean?
13:25:22 <fizzie> I don't really know. It sounds like the same thing as "wary".
13:25:59 <ehird> Someone ought to give me an unlimited reign of dictatorship over GNOME so I can fix the bad parts.
13:27:17 <ehird> Like, for instance: My totally made-up-and-only-existing-inside-my-head Activities!
13:27:46 <ehird> And, the important part
13:27:49 <ehird> is that it'd all run on a C64.
14:16:10 <Tinned_Tuna> ehird, I seem to be constantly ballsing the interpreter up :-(
14:17:28 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: paste the code, I'll try and nudge you in the right direction
14:17:44 <ehird> it's not like making stupid mistakes is an uncommon thing when writing a new type of program :)
14:19:35 <Tinned_Tuna> thank you for putting up with me again :-)
14:20:17 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: correct me if I'm wrong, but when you parse the ], you fail to do self.jump_map[last]=open_blah
14:20:22 <ehird> i.e., the ] to [ mapping
14:20:26 <ehird> you just assign the [ to ] mapping
14:20:40 <ehird> then again, your ] doesn't look at jump_map
14:20:45 <ehird> so I'm not sure how it's supposed to work
14:21:02 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: why the -1 in ]?
14:21:11 <ehird> that executes the instruction before the [, no?
14:21:33 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: also, as you currently have unbounded, signed cells > 0 is wrong
14:21:46 <Tinned_Tuna> ehird, no, the instruction pointer is incremented regardless
14:21:49 <ehird> it should be just if self.stack:; that is, if len(self.stack) != 0
14:21:49 <Tinned_Tuna> self.instruction_pointer+=1 # Regardless, we continue!
14:22:02 <ehird> I strongly suggest you make cells wrap 256
14:22:10 <ehird> other than that, I don't see an issue
14:23:31 <Tinned_Tuna> it can execute simple programs, but not those with nested loops, it appears
14:24:03 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: I suggest you drop that stack, and merely assign the ] position to the [ position in the jump map.
14:24:08 <ehird> Then both [ and ] can use the jump_map.
14:24:30 <ehird> That reduces the number of concepts in the interpreter, and so should narrow down the problem.
14:27:47 <Tinned_Tuna> currently my test suite fails on 4 of the 11 tests
14:28:09 <Tinned_Tuna> well, it's more one large TestCase ... :-/
14:28:37 <ehird> you crazy beginning esolangers and yer test suites and yer three-piece bathroom suites
14:28:48 <ehird> why in my day we called a buncha BF programs a shell script for loop
14:32:00 <Tinned_Tuna> ehird, I considered that. But then I thought, might as well have nice verbose erroring. Also eclipse runs them all from a single hot-key
14:32:13 <ehird> <Tinned_Tuna> eclipse
14:32:18 <ehird> you are no longer welcome :|
14:32:38 <Tinned_Tuna> eclipse is good, once it's loaded (Assuming you have >2GB RAM available)
14:32:58 <ehird> for a decidedly opposite world definition of good, quite so.
14:33:08 <ehird> specifically, one in the vicinity of "bad".
14:33:51 <Tinned_Tuna> well, my experience shows it to be stable and full of the features I like, at the expense of my RAM. It's not like I'd find any other usage for it.
14:34:25 <ehird> sheesh, and i normally just have to correct one or two brain tumours in new recruits
14:34:30 <ehird> I'm not sure I can do a brain transpl--
14:34:45 <ehird> yes. yes, that gigabyte of RAM Eclipse is using is entirely dedicated to code completion.
14:35:17 <Tinned_Tuna> ehird, not true... it has to compile the java bytecode to a native executable and hold the MASSIVE resulting executable in RAM
14:35:31 <ehird> And it has nobody to blame for this but itself.
14:35:48 <ehird> biggest brainfuck interpreter evar
14:36:05 <Tinned_Tuna> I can run my interpreter outside of eclipse
14:36:25 * ehird huddles off with his assortment of text editors and REPLs, grumbling about darned kids and their bad coding
14:36:44 <ehird> (can you still say "darned kids" if you're only old and cranky in spirit?)
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14:38:05 <ehird> what, down to the planck second?
14:38:14 <ehird> i don't even know exactly what hour i was born.
14:38:28 <ehird> 7 glibons and a half-quantum
14:38:53 <ehird> I believe it's been 14 years since I was pushed out of that perfectly comfortable womb.
14:39:43 <Tinned_Tuna> fair enough, I don't think you can say "darned kids" when you're younger than me
14:40:00 <ehird> that's exactly what a darned kid would say.
14:40:08 <ehird> to dissuade appropriate and well-applied criticism.
14:40:40 <Tinned_Tuna> I write code for a living and goto uni for fun!
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14:41:12 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: you solve project euler problems for a living? :P
14:41:14 <Tinned_Tuna> I pay rent, gas, electric and water bills.
14:41:42 <Tinned_Tuna> i.e. what I do when I'm not studying/working
14:42:01 <Tinned_Tuna> my life consists of cycle to uni, work (often involving coding)
14:42:36 <ehird> it'd be more interesting if you were paid to solve project euler problems.
14:43:04 <Tinned_Tuna> a while ago, someone offered a 5,000 prize for completing the first 30 project euler problems in APL
14:43:20 <ehird> really? that's ridiculous
14:43:22 <ehird> I would so have done that
14:43:27 <Tinned_Tuna> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APL_(programming_language)
14:43:38 <ehird> I can program a little bit in J, which is similar enough
14:43:54 <ehird> In fact, that type of language is particularly well-suited to solving Project Euler problems concisely.
14:44:01 <ehird> So that's a rather ridiculous prize.
14:44:23 <Deewiant> And the first 30 are rather simple.
14:44:44 <Deewiant> I'm not surprised, it probably took only a few hours in total :-P
14:45:15 <ehird> yeah that's like 1k/hr ;P
14:45:21 <ehird> I wish I could type the pound on this damn keyboard
14:45:35 <ehird> Just because I prioritise # doesn't mean I never want to talk about our currency :(
14:46:22 <ehird> i dunno man, i got like 200 points on "I CAN SHARE CHEEZBURGR" way back.
14:46:35 <ehird> unless comment karma doesn't count
14:46:41 <Tinned_Tuna> I normally scrape like 8 on a good comment...
14:46:54 <Tinned_Tuna> Link karma is /way/ harder to come by... :-/
14:46:56 <ehird> i usually get 1 these days :P
14:47:19 <ehird> Basically all of my link karma comes from two submissions:
14:47:23 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/71e5c/sketchpad_an_advanced_painting_program_from_1963/
14:47:23 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7nt8p/itunes_all_songs_drmfree/
14:47:29 <ehird> not that it matters.
14:47:42 <ehird> (I'd have gotten like 2x more on that latter one if I'd submitted it to /r/technology :P)
14:52:00 * ehird wonders if there's anything like IDLE but with less gtk.
14:52:24 <ehird> it's mainly the repl i'm after
14:52:51 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: you realise that's the same as running python from a shell.
14:52:55 <Tinned_Tuna> not even slightly cool: FAILED (failures=7)
14:53:09 <ehird> I just find syntax highlighting useful and all.
14:53:10 <Tinned_Tuna> but it's a read-eval-print-loop, so who cares? :-p
14:53:30 <ehird> Because that's just python in a shell.
14:53:56 <Tinned_Tuna> I normally just run tests from the shell, nothing big
14:54:11 * ehird hits Tinned_Tuna with the Holy Stick of Incremental Development
14:54:23 <ehird> consider yourself hit.
14:54:34 * Tinned_Tuna hits ehird with the holy stick of Unit Testing
14:54:48 <ehird> what the fuck kind of broke-ass stick goes clang.
14:55:10 * ehird hits Tinned_Tuna with the tinned tuna of expressive type systems such as Hindley-Milner
14:55:41 * ehird hits Tinned_Tuna with Haskell
14:56:13 <ehird> *the fact that adding Haskell's type system actually increases expressibility, e.g. by letting you do more sandboxing*
14:56:25 <ehird> ^ those are all onomatopoeic.
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14:59:05 <Tinned_Tuna> eh, I still prefer python because I can do all the fun shit with mutating variables easily, explicit loops, full object orientation, but at the same time I could do something in quite a functional style.
14:59:18 <ehird> And the same with Haskell.
14:59:22 <ehird> Haskell is a great imperative language.
14:59:42 <ehird> There is a persistent belief among Haskell newbies that monads are some sort of added layer or kludge.
14:59:53 <ehird> It's not so. It's a very natural way to do imperative, and not a messy layer on top of the purity.
15:00:17 <Tinned_Tuna> I want my messy impure stuff right there next to the pure stuff
15:00:35 <ehird> You can do that too, if you stay in IO to mark things as "this is imperative".
15:02:14 <ehird> You say that you don't want monads but I doubt that given a deeper understanding of Haskell you'd say that. The progression in a Haskell programmer's path seems to be "ok, this is simple" -> "WTF are monads? WTF are functors? What is this? Oh god..." -> "ok, well monads are ok for a bit of imperative stuff layered over the core as a neat trick to interact with the world using primarily your pure algorithms..." -> "oh, wait, monads are actually a powerful a
15:02:14 <ehird> bstraction in their own right, and not just for IO, with lots of assorted categories... hmm..." -> "hey, these same abstractions are useful all over the place... and I can use the IO monad to my advantage, helping me rather than being bothersome" -> "<3 HASKELL BFF4LYF".
15:04:05 <ehird> Unless you're pikhq; then it goes "okay, this is pretty simple. makes sense, quite elegant." -> "okay, here's how we do IO. that's easy." -> "ah, a monad. hmm. oh, I see how this works with other concepts" -> "and applicatives and functors" -> "okay, I can write some stuff in Haskell now" -> "ah, now I understand what a monad really *is*, abstractly." -> "and applicatives. and functors." -> "HASKELL IS SUPREME GOD OF THE UNIVERSE".
15:04:16 <ehird> (With that whole progression lasting 7 days, literally.)
15:04:27 <ehird> (As in the actual literal sense of literally, not the sense that means "not literally".)
15:13:15 <FireFly> You discussed Project Euler problems?
15:13:24 <FireFly> Did I mention I solved the first one with CSS? (more or less)
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15:29:19 <FireFly> http://etc.firefly.nu/css/euler-1.html <-- At least it works in O10
15:29:50 <FireFly> The actual selection is done with CSS, though it needs numbers to be stored in a certain format, to operate on (hence the JS)
15:30:55 <ehird> "0 tal; summa: 0".
15:31:05 <ehird> gecko 1.9, epiphany something, and the browser is frozen.
15:35:00 <ehird> don't worry, gecko fails at everything :)
15:35:14 <ehird> Doesn't freeze my browser now; same result, though.
15:36:08 <FireFly> chroimum doesn't even want to open the page, I just get a sad tab :\
15:36:36 <ehird> Yuck, Chromium on Linux. Horrible custom-drawn frame.
15:36:53 <ehird> Epiphany-WebKit is the future, I just wish they'd fix all the bugs in it that aren't in the Gecko version. :(
15:36:54 <FireFly> Useful for testing stuff in webkit
15:37:06 <ehird> FireFly: Use Arora for that.
15:37:14 <ehird> It's extremely barebones.
15:38:35 <FireFly> Arora crashed upon entering the page :D
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15:41:13 <ehird> Ah, redundant nickstamps.
15:41:21 <ehird> Now my XChat-GNOME experience is not horrifying.
15:44:32 <FireFly> But looking at CSS3 I'm getting more and more.. doubtful about that
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16:02:55 * ehird submits a bug to Ubuntu
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16:26:58 <AnMaster> xkcd today... have that actually ever happened?
16:28:43 <AnMaster> ehird, for less silly stuff that it is free from I guess?
16:29:19 <ehird> (Too lazy; you google.)
16:29:27 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't know what too goole for....
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16:51:11 <Ilari> What? "Pasteurised homogenised semi-skimmed milk" contains milk? Who would have guessed... :->
16:52:51 <Ilari> Cadbury Dairy Milk Chocolate Bars Contain Milk, Company Warns ... Unfortunately, that's not from the Onion.
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17:02:32 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: I've made a simple Bf interpreter in Python with the same sort of structure to yours to show how I'd do it
17:02:35 <ehird> ironing out the last bugs now...
17:13:34 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: http://codepad.org/IcgSnL5m
17:13:54 <ehird> It's slow enough that it's painful to watch mandelbrot.b go by or wait for LostKng.b to respond, but it's cleanly written and works for most stuff.
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17:57:13 <ehird> oh fuck, ubuntu are moving me to epiphany-webkit
17:57:21 <ehird> too lazy to say no :P
18:00:41 <ehird> Yay, the small font size issue.
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18:01:24 <ehird> Also, the address bar has an integrated progress bar, which is ugly and besides I need the status bar for anti-goatse purposes, so it might as well be used and be consistent with GNOME.
18:03:14 <ehird> Ooh! The fun doth not stop! If you disable the status bar and hover over a link it displays the URL in a small font in a gray-background box with a #000 border in the bottom-left, clashing with the curved window border.
18:03:32 <ehird> This ugly, jerkily-appearing-and-disappearing splodge is presumably meant to be imitating Chrome.
18:04:18 <ehird> Hey, maybe I could make a custom stylesheet to fix the font size.
18:07:32 <ehird> Hey WebKit, did you just render that with differing font antialiasing to my desktop while leaving the rest of the page correct?
18:07:38 <ehird> Yes you did! You did!
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18:17:06 <ehird> Well, it seems it Absolutely Refuses to put an Epiphany icon in the menus, no matter how many times I uninstall/install.
18:17:12 <ehird> Ya think this might be an alpha release?
18:18:36 <ehird> So, I guess the awful Firefox it is, for now! You have vanquished me, alpha 6.
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19:17:32 <Slereah> Ding dong the witch is dead!
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19:28:13 <ehird> Hey, Glade appears to be a relatively non-horrible interface for making resizable GUIs using a quite decent toolkit.
19:28:21 <ehird> Take that, every-other-toolkit-ever.
19:29:11 <ehird> (Note: UI only becomes decent when you change the widget selector to text only instead of hovering over every damn inscrutable icon.)
19:30:17 * coppro wishes he had a lightsaber
19:30:45 <ehird> I seem to be completely unable to find the way to size a widget up to get a rough default width/height as opposed to keying in pixel values, though.
19:31:05 <fizzie> Lightsabers: a more elegant UI designer, for a more civilized age.
19:31:31 <ehird> "Just fucking cut the UI up to shape, man!"
19:31:39 <ehird> "We'll start with a block of raw interaction."
19:31:46 <ehird> "But... even the guild dilutes it nowadays..."
19:31:56 <ehird> "I don't give a damn what the guild does. Get your UIsaber out."
19:36:39 <ehird> A vbox containing a menu and an hbox containing 1. a vbox containing (1. (empty) 2. (empty)) 2. a vbox containing (1. (empty) 2. (empty))
19:42:30 <ehird> what do they do? :P
19:46:38 <ehird> wish: hide gtk program scrollbars unless mouse at right side of screen where it would be or currently scrolling (e.g. with mouse, up/down etc)
19:52:51 <coppro> never encountered that with any WM myself
19:53:00 <coppro> though I'm not an esoteric WM user
19:54:06 <ehird> coppro: the iphone does it :P
19:54:24 <ehird> although obvs the scrollbar is nonfunctional, because any dragging you'd apply to it just applies to the document itself and works the same...
19:54:40 <ehird> but really, the scrollbar is such a waste 90% of the time and adds quite a lot of visual clutter
19:54:47 <ehird> it's hardly ever needed
19:54:59 <coppro> yeah, pageup/down > scrollbar
19:55:46 <ehird> the mousewheel is the best for slow movement, dragging the scrollbar swiftly to a position is best to get to a spot
19:56:07 <coppro> really long documents should have a ToC
19:56:19 <ehird> really long documents should be split up.
19:56:23 <coppro> idea: HTML encodes the ToC separately so that the browser can deisplay it independently
19:56:50 <ehird> html isn't really semantic despite claims so.
19:57:03 <fizzie> That's what the h1..h6 tags are for; the logical structure of the document.
19:57:39 <coppro> hmm... wonder if it's possible to autogenerate a ToC with CSS... probably not
19:58:51 <ehird> glade, please don't let it be so that you can't do "default height/width" yourself for widgets just like windows :(
19:58:59 <ehird> i don't want to write stupid redundant code.
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20:05:53 <zzo38> I joined this channel, but I am posting on #anagol channel too
20:07:12 <ehird> yes. irc lets you join multiple channels.
20:08:21 <zzo38> Yes, of course I know that. (But some servers has a limit)
20:09:21 <fizzie> ehird: I'm not really a GTK (or any GUI) person, but I think only Gtk windows have a "default size"; Gtk widgets have a "size request" for "smallest size that will work well", and that you can specify in Glade in the properties. (Though not by draggery.)
20:09:37 <zzo38> And of course there is a physical limit even if a limit has not been configured
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20:10:28 <ehird> fizzie: do said widgets default to that size, though?
20:10:38 <ehird> anyway, changing the requested size does not appear to be reflected in the glade window
20:10:48 <ehird> so it's a total crapshoot as to what it'll actually look like...
20:11:01 <fizzie> Well, they won't get any smaller. They can easily get bigger, though, so it's not really a "default size" like that.
20:11:40 <ehird> Anyway, the default size isn't the reasonable minimum size, so that goes out of the door.
20:11:44 <coppro> So. I now hate something new. But I can't tell you what it is.
20:11:57 <ehird> coppro: you are perfectly physically capable of doing so
20:12:10 <coppro> I MAY NOT tell you what it is.
20:12:16 <ehird> what you're saying is you're choosing not to for whatever reason, and I can't think of anything this'd achieve apart from attention whoring
20:12:32 <ehird> although the "hur hur I'm in an agoran contract" style of attention whoring does not seem to exactly have wide appeal...
20:12:57 <coppro> it's not an Agoran contract
20:13:10 <fizzie> It does seem to be shown in the Glade window here; but yes, it's just minimum-size. I'm not quite sure how you're supposed to behave if you want widgets that don't feel like growing huge.
20:13:16 <ehird> then either an RFC declared you MAY NOT, or you're misusing terminology
20:13:54 <ehird> coppro: is it not not to do with lenovo
20:14:04 <coppro> it is to do with my job
20:14:09 <fizzie> Freenode's channel limit is 21; strange number. (It's in the RFC2812 numeric the servers send; "CHANLIMIT=#&!+:21".)
20:14:11 <ehird> your job at the fbi.
20:14:32 <coppro> and an open-source library that is the new target of my ire
20:15:18 <zzo38> fizzie: Huh? I get "CHANLIMIT=#:20" on my computer.
20:15:49 <fizzie> zzo38: Oh? Well, it might be different on different freenode servers, or alternatively my bouncer does something strange to it, though that sounds unlikely.
20:16:01 <zzo38> Which freenode server are you on?
20:16:21 <ehird> You can find that out with /whois.
20:16:27 <fizzie> Never mind, I was looking at the wrong row, the IRCnet line. :p
20:16:30 <coppro> how do you get this info?
20:16:46 <ehird> It's in the connection information.
20:16:51 <ehird> You know, that clog before the MOTD.
20:17:01 <ehird> --- farmer.freenode.net hyperion-1.0.2b aAbBcCdDeEfFGhHiIjkKlLmMnNopPQrRsStTuUvVwWxXyYzZ01234569*@ bcdefFhiIklmnoPqstv
20:17:01 <ehird> --- IRCD=dancer CAPAB CHANTYPES=# EXCEPTS INVEX CHANMODES=bdeIq,k,lfJD,cgijLmnPQrRstz CHANLIMIT=#:20 PREFIX=(ov)@+ MAXLIST=bdeI:50 MODES=4 STATUSMSG=@ KNOCK NICKLEN=16 :are supported by this server
20:17:01 <ehird> --- SAFELIST CASEMAPPING=ascii CHANNELLEN=30 TOPICLEN=450 KICKLEN=450 KEYLEN=23 USERLEN=10 HOSTLEN=63 SILENCE=50 :are supported by this server
20:17:03 <fizzie> Okay, then, irc.tdc.fi has a strange channel limit. The freenode server indeed does CHANLIMIT=#:20.
20:17:04 <zzo38> The channel limit is on the 005 line sent to you upon sending username
20:18:35 <fizzie> Oh, and there is no RFC keyword "MAY NOT"; RFC 2119 -- http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt -- specifies only "MUST", "MUST NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "NOT RECOMMENDED", "REQUIRED", "MAY" and "OPTIONAL".
20:19:29 <fizzie> Oh, and "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", how did I drop those.
20:19:47 <ehird> You SHALL NOT forget thos.
20:20:44 <fizzie> Indeed, I SHOULD NOT have forgotten those now either. (That is; there may exist valid reasons for forgetting, but "the full implications should be understood and the case carefully weighed before" forgetting.)
20:21:53 <ehird> fizzie: In Agora, that causes SHOULD to be defined recursively.
20:22:07 <ehird> You have to carefully weigh up the implications of not (carefully weighing up the implications of not (...
20:22:25 <ehird> You don't have to.
20:22:29 <ehird> Before doing whatever it is.
20:22:36 <ehird> Anyway, it's quite, err, empty.
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21:02:35 <zzo38> Based on a link in Hatena Diary, I have found a link to Google Squared, search "programming language". I tried adding a column "Color". According to Google, Eiffel is black, and function programming languages are green.
21:02:45 <zzo38> s/function/functional/
21:04:13 <fizzie> Python is also black; it comes from the fact that "Hutchinson Python New Gen UST Tubeless Light Tire" is black.
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21:04:44 <fizzie> Those sources are always so funny.
21:05:37 <fizzie> To me it says functional languages are blue; but green's also on the list of values. (Because some "multi-functional headset" cables are blue, but on the other hand a Cisco router has a green blinking LED when the software is "functional".)
21:07:07 <zzo38> Also, the pictures are not necessarily right either. I searched "chess variant", it came up with a list of chess variants but many of the pictures correspond to something else with the same name that has nothing to do with chess.
21:08:13 <fizzie> "Price" is a good column; Visual Basic costs $65.98; Fortran £512.00; Python $107.20; Eiffel just $2.00; you can get Forth for $9.99; Haskell's $29.95; and functional programming languages are a whopping USD $795.00.
21:08:31 <fizzie> Didn't know Python costs over a hundred bucks.
21:09:49 <zzo38> I get Forth for $0.00 listed
21:11:08 <zzo38> I also tried searching "esolang"
21:11:35 <zzo38> It comes up with a proper list, but some of the descriptions are only part of a list of esolangs
21:11:46 <Deewiant> Haskell is blue and Funge is red
21:12:12 <zzo38> And it adds three columns "C Equivalent" "Meaning" "Appeared In" none of which have any values.
21:13:12 <zzo38> It has something which seems useful, "Usual File Extensions" but there is no values.
21:14:39 <fizzie> What's interesting is: green is red, white is black, silver is yellow. (At least that's what I get when I build a Square of colors and add a "color" column.)
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21:15:00 <fizzie> Also, violet is rated PG-13; purple and yellow are rated B; and green is rated at 8.3.
21:15:11 <fizzie> (Ranking, Rating and Configuration were the default columns.)
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21:15:39 <fizzie> Ranking has no values, and configuration for green is "Choosing the Right Solution", while the config for silver is "6-cyl".
21:15:57 <zzo38> I get "Author", "Media Type", and "Isbn" as default columns.
21:16:16 <fizzie> (Colors for other colors were #aabbcc RGB values which looked sensible.)
21:16:39 <Deewiant> I get yellow = yellow green, silver = white, white = black, blue = #0000ff
21:16:55 <Deewiant> For red, green, and black it can't find colours
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21:17:12 <Deewiant> For black it found the colour "Tesco H30 Colour Ink" but no color
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21:17:53 <fizzie> I got RGB values for yellow (#FFFF00), violet (#EE82EE), purple (#800080), brown (#A52A2A), magenta (#FF00FF) and lavender (#E6E6FA).
21:18:31 <fizzie> Though the image for "White" was the U.S. Department of Energy logo.
21:18:58 <Deewiant> Purple = "Pink/", Brown = "Black,"
21:19:09 <Deewiant> Magenta and lavender get the RGB here as well.
21:19:30 <Deewiant> And it seems the question of indigo is settled: Indigo = Blue
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21:20:39 <zzo38> At least "quark" gives correct descriptions when I add the correct items
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21:22:04 <fizzie> Item Name: Quark. Image: [picture of the Quark character from Star Trek]. Description: "Quark Signs Distribution Agreement with DistributorX Inc.". And finally: Color: "yes".
21:22:23 <zzo38> Ah. So, it is a color film, then?
21:22:31 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's from Wikipedia. :p
21:22:34 <Deewiant> Protons have colour grey but color BLACK
21:22:45 <fizzie> "color charge for Up quark"
21:23:09 <zzo38> strange/charm/top/bottom quarks language are English but up and down quarks there is no value for colors
21:23:16 <fizzie> Deewiant: Sounds like a poem.
21:23:38 <zzo38> Ya, now make up a poem from this
21:23:42 <Deewiant> For "violets" it gives color white and colour "yellowish"
21:24:04 <fizzie> That could be an yellowish off-white color.
21:24:56 <Deewiant> Roses are black, violets are yellowish, ...
21:26:21 <fizzie> Deewiant: Sugar is Annona, and so are you.
21:26:55 <fizzie> (Genus: Annona was the only column with a value in the "add these ten suggestions" columns for a single-row "sugar" square.)
21:26:55 <Deewiant> I was thinking of something that'd rhyme with "yellowish"
21:26:57 <zzo38> Well, one thing works, when I search "internet protocol", manually type in the names of the protocols, and add a "port number" column, it gives the correct answers. But "color" for HTTP gives a URL, and "Command" for "HTTP" is "yes"
21:27:41 <Deewiant> Sugar is salty, and so are fish?
21:28:52 <zzo38> I typed in the following protocols: HTTP, Gopher, FTP, Telnet, SMTP, WHOIS, POP3, SSH, IRC. The only column which is correct is the "port number" column. The other columns act crazy.
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21:31:58 <Sgeo> Is there a better way to express the idea of going down to the power of two right below you then:
21:32:10 <Sgeo> 2 ^ (floor(log2(x))
21:37:08 <fizzie> You could use some sort of supremum notation over the set of all powers of two that are less than (or equal, if you want) x, but I'm not sure that's very obviouser. Alternatively, you could use, you know, language.
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