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01:22:20 <Sgeo_> Should I learn emacs, or vi?
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01:29:51 <Ilari> I regard Vi as tolerable for some simple editing (but nano tends to be better for that), but Vim is completely unusuable... :-)
01:32:53 <Gregor> You emacs lunatics just haven't Seen the Light.
01:34:21 <Sgeo_> I think I have some affection for emacs stemming from when I brought a book on Emacs, since I thought it was connected to macs
01:34:36 <Sgeo_> (I also did the same thing with CORBA, and that's the story of why I know a bit of COBOL)
01:37:04 <Ilari> I have tried to use Vim. It was total crap (Vi was only crap, but not total crap).
01:39:52 <Sgeo_> Huh. The user nobody is running ImapProxy on my school's linux system
01:40:22 <Gregor> The nobody user is used for things that shouldn't have access to anything in particular.
01:40:48 * Sgeo_ doesn't know what ImapProxy is, but is there anything interesting implied by the fact that it's running?
01:44:30 <Sgeo_> I think one of the teachers is stalking the Hockey club?
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01:47:57 <Sgeo_> http://pastie.org/private/b99qje4snvmmgqaapnpm6g
01:48:28 <Sgeo_> Even to my unaccustomed-to-bash eyes, that looks ugly
01:57:14 <Gregor> Some indentation would help.
02:01:27 <Sgeo_> Is that bash file made to stalk hockey?
02:03:59 <Gregor> That being said, it's a HUGE waste of CPU.
02:05:28 <pikhq> Gregor: I've seen the light that is Vim. M-x vimperator was kinda lame.
02:11:02 <Sgeo_> Is C# a good language to learn?
02:12:13 <pikhq> No; the only interesting thing in C# is monads. And if you're really wanting to learn those, learn you some Haskell.
02:13:06 <Sgeo_> What language is the best to learn for a career in programming?
02:13:30 <pikhq> Don't learn languages.
02:13:43 <pikhq> Make it so you could reasonably learn a language in a couple of weeks.
02:14:15 <Sgeo_> I think I'm at that point, but I'm not sure
02:14:56 <Sgeo_> (Well, at least for languages that follow whatever thing C is, as in, not functional or whatever)
02:15:33 <pikhq> ... So, you know imperative OO languages.
02:15:45 <pikhq> Learn some functional languages.
02:16:27 <Gregor> C is the solution to all problems.
02:16:51 <pikhq> Gregor: Says the D programmer.
02:16:56 <Sgeo_> I knew enough Haskell at once point to make a bad pun
02:16:59 <Gregor> I haven't programmed in D in months :P
02:19:30 <pikhq> Gregor: Fine, fine.
02:19:37 <pikhq> Gregor: Says the guy responsible for Plof.
02:30:10 <Sgeo_> ...why is root running GNOME?
02:30:18 <Sgeo_> root :0 - 08Jul09 ?xdm? 20:40m 0.22s /usr/bin/gnome-session
02:43:03 <Sgeo_> I sent a mail to that stalkery professor...
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03:23:51 <bsmntbombdood_> i finally figured out that the packing density of circles arranged hexagonally is pi * sqrt(3)/6
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05:41:38 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_0F/screen0.png
05:42:17 <oerjan> indeed, it doesn't look much like a pipe
05:43:07 <zzo38> It isn't supposed to be a pipe. The "THIS IS NOT A PIPE" is based on a art by Magritte
05:43:18 <zzo38> (but they wrote it in French, and it actually had pictures of pipes)
05:43:28 <zzo38> But other than that it is unrelated
05:44:59 <zzo38> http://www.michaelarnoldart.com/Magritte-The_Two_Mysteries-1966-1.jpg
05:55:46 <zzo38> But, is the first picture, good, nevertheless? Did you like it? And, what about Magritte's picture? Do you like that one too?
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06:08:20 <zzo38> Two little sticks They're made out of wood And they help you To pick up your lunch Your lunch And if you practice Then you'd get good And you'll tind you can pick up A bunch to munch Eat noodles with chopsticks Eat dumplings with chopsticks Eat sushi with chopsticks That's fish! Don't eat soup with your chopsticks That's no good with chopsticks And jello with slide off Your dish I eat with chopsticks Can you eat with chopsticks Doctor told us
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14:21:10 <ehird> 13:15:00 <fizzie> Also, violet is rated PG-13; purple and yellow are rated B; and green is rated at 8.3.
14:23:13 <ehird> 17:32:53 <Gregor> You emacs lunatics just haven't Seen the Light.
14:23:14 <ehird> 17:33:02 <Gregor> The Light that is vim
14:23:31 <ehird> You're both on crack, but vi has a coherent philosophy, so I declare that Gregor is Victor.
14:23:59 <oerjan> Victor Frankenstein, but still
14:24:05 <ehird> 18:05:28 <pikhq> Gregor: I've seen the light that is Vim. M-x vimperator was kinda lame.
14:24:07 <ehird> You mean M-x viper.
14:24:10 <ehird> Vimperator is Firefox.
14:24:27 <ehird> Well, you might be joking.
14:24:34 <ehird> After all, pikhq liking vim?
14:24:44 <ehird> 18:13:06 <Sgeo_> What language is the best to learn for a career in programming?
14:24:56 <ehird> You need a healthy dose of "I hate my life and want it to be hell".
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14:44:21 <ehird> "I will give 99€ to anyone completing C99 support in TinyCC."
14:44:28 <ehird> what a stupid thing to say
14:44:47 <ehird> does this guy have any idea how much programmers working on a damn compiler would usually be paid?
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15:24:19 <ehird> that's my password
15:24:20 <ehird> let me authenticate
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15:35:12 <ehird> Wow, Gnome 2.28 came out.
15:35:15 <ehird> How did that happen?
15:36:15 <ehird> Apparently they conspired with the Ubuntu alpha team too, because I already have it.
15:36:47 <ehird> Advantage of using the alpha: exciting bug fix updates EVERY DAY!
15:37:24 <ehird> (Disadvantage: Nothing quite works right.)
15:38:17 <ehird> "# GNOME menus and buttons have been standardised across all applications to not display icons by default. Menu items with dynamic objects, including applications, files or bookmarks, and devices are the exception and can display an icon. This change will standardise the look and feel of menus and present a cleaner interface to users.'"
15:38:26 <ehird> Seems they reverted it in Ubuntu because I still have 'em.
15:38:30 <ehird> Wonder where the setting is.
15:39:27 <ehird> /desktop/gnome/interface/menus_have_icons
15:39:47 <ehird> Oh, it's also in Appearance. Heh.
15:39:58 <ehird> Found when Googling:
15:40:02 <ehird> [[For some reason, the folks at GNOME (the “usability” team) decided to turn off icons in menus.]]
15:40:08 <ehird> He says "usability" throughout the post.
15:40:20 <ehird> "Now these people, these are FAKE usability experts."
15:40:28 <ehird> The computer needs to restart to finish installing updates. Please save your work before continuing.
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15:40:39 <Tinned_Tuna> I am so glad I got to opt out of the user interface modules
15:40:51 <Tinned_Tuna> I have my command line, and that's how everyone should use my software.
15:41:22 <Tinned_Tuna> having a GUI on my computer for pidgin, xchat, firefox, eclipse is nice
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15:43:12 <ehird> (It probably just inherited my pre-upgrade settings, actually.)
15:43:29 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: did you see the codepad I linked you yesterday, btw?
15:44:16 <Tinned_Tuna> I thought the ol' dictionary of functions trick wouldn't really work too well, but if you abstract the tape away like you did, it makes a whole load of sense
15:44:49 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: caveat: you have to assign self.instructions in __init__, since self.tape is
15:45:13 <ehird> raise BFSyntaxError('Unmatched [.')
15:45:13 <ehird> raise BFSyntaxError('Unmatched ].')
15:45:17 <ehird> those two errors are backwards
15:45:20 <ehird> pretend they're flipped :P
15:47:28 <ehird> it's probably cliche to say "a lot of people say that".
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15:48:48 <ehird> Note to self: `killall gnome-panel` hides the xchat-gnome icon.
15:49:03 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, you know you said removing the icons from the application menus would be bad?
15:49:09 <ehird> it only affects program menus
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17:05:29 <ehird> Well, seems like extensions are gone for good now in Epiphany
17:05:39 <ehird> They were all crap, though.
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17:37:29 <AnMaster> <ehird> Well, seems like extensions are gone for good now in Epiphany <-- hm?
17:37:40 <AnMaster> you mean stuff like firefox add-ons?
17:38:00 <ehird> (Add-Ons encompass extensions and themes in Firefox, iirc.)
17:38:18 <AnMaster> ehird, correct. And plugins would be stuff like java and flash
17:38:24 <ehird> (Indeed: Tabs are "extensions", "Themes", "Languages", "Plugins")
17:38:30 <ehird> AnMaster: Ah. Those are still in, obviously.
17:38:59 <AnMaster> and yes plugins are in "add-ons" nowdays, they weren't some versions ago
17:39:33 <ehird> Epiphany doesn't have any themes because themes are stupid, why have them just in a browser? your desktop environment already has themes, and no languages because they're all included
17:39:45 <ehird> So "add-ons" could only refer to extensions or plugins and now extensions are gone.
17:39:59 <ehird> Also, wow Evolution really sucks.
17:40:11 <ehird> It's so enterprisey and it doesn't even work.
17:40:56 <ehird> (I use the Creationism email client; it's just an empty window.)
17:41:07 <ehird> (Except for one button, "connect".)
17:41:27 <ehird> (When you click it, a dialog pops up saying "Magic happening..." and an imprecise batting-backwards-and-forth progress bar.)
17:41:32 <ehird> (It never disappears.)
17:41:38 <AnMaster> ehird, reason for firefox themes is probably that the default look isn't the native look. And quite crappy as well
17:42:23 <ehird> AnMaster: Firefox's majority market is on Windows, where it looks fine.
17:42:29 <ehird> (Although that weird back/forth eye thing is a bit odd.)
17:42:53 <ehird> Themes are just because idiots are very demanding of silliness like that... especially if one is a developer. :P
17:42:53 <AnMaster> <ehird> (Although that weird back/forth eye thing is a bit odd.) <-- huh?
17:43:12 <ehird> AnMaster: you haven't seen it?
17:43:22 <ehird> http://z.about.com/d/browsers/1/0/k/B/-/-/openffbrowser.jpg
17:43:24 <AnMaster> I have no idea what you are referring to
17:43:29 <ehird> See the backwards/forwards buttons.
17:43:53 <AnMaster> since I hate firefox default look
17:43:54 <ehird> It looks sort of like O_o, which I guess is why people call it the eye.
17:44:16 <ehird> Ubuntu's Firefox just makes it use the default buttons in regular style, which is... boringly sane?
17:44:28 <ehird> But boring there is probably a good thing.
17:44:45 <AnMaster> ehird, free interpretation of that GUI feature: this means they are conservative, prefer going back rather than making progress
17:44:59 <ehird> Meanwhile, I have found the one webcomic worse than User Friendly.
17:45:07 <AnMaster> <ehird> Ubuntu's Firefox just makes it use the default buttons in regular style, which is... boringly sane? <-- ubuntu's firefox isn't the last one iirc
17:45:14 <ehird> Free Software Magazine's "The Bizarre Cathedral". Representative example: http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/files/www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/nodes/3210/strip.jpg
17:45:18 <ehird> AnMaster: it is in karmic alpha6.
17:45:28 <ehird> Spoiler: Still sucks
17:46:10 <AnMaster> <ehird> Free Software Magazine's "The Bizarre Cathedral". Representative example: http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/files/www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/nodes/3210/strip.jpg <-- quite a horrible joke
17:46:17 <AnMaster> if one could even call it joke
17:46:25 <ehird> AnMaster: it's been going since 2004 and as near as I can tell they're all that bad
17:46:50 <ehird> the characters always have exactly the same pixels, to boot
17:47:03 <ehird> and most of them just have the characters and nothing else
17:48:00 <AnMaster> <ehird> the characters always have exactly the same pixels, to boot <-- Ryan North style?
17:48:08 <ehird> Sorry, I spoke wrongly; apparently "(C) Copyright by its author, 2004-2008" is for the whole FSM.
17:48:13 <ehird> This thing has only been sucking since 2008.
17:48:18 <ehird> AnMaster: no, different amounts and arrangements
17:48:28 <ehird> also, those comics have a name, you know
17:49:01 <ehird> "Ryan North style" vs "Dinosaur Comics style"
17:49:58 <AnMaster> ehird, well he write that comic
17:50:08 <AnMaster> so I fail to see what is wrong with my phrasing of it
17:50:26 <ehird> because it's not inherent to ryan north to use that style?
17:50:34 <ehird> if he made another comic I doubt it would be the same
17:51:02 <AnMaster> question then is: does he make another one?
17:52:04 <ehird> doesn't matter, the style is dinosaur comics', not ryan north's, it's that one specific project
17:52:43 <AnMaster> you seemed to understand what I meant anyway, thus the communication worked
17:53:01 <ehird> loLi t00tally agree d00d
17:53:10 <AnMaster> <ehird> This thing has only been sucking since 2008. <-- so it was good before that?
17:53:26 <ehird> that sentence does not imply that at all.
17:53:42 <AnMaster> ehird, true, that is why I was asking
17:54:13 <ehird> the line before it implies I was mistaken about 2004, then I mention 2008 being when it started sucking, after mentioning earlier that it's a really bad comic
17:54:13 <AnMaster> the alternative would be it hasn't been running at all before 2008
17:54:19 <ehird> that is the correct option.
17:55:04 <AnMaster> ehird, what do you think about that PhD comic btw?
17:55:28 <AnMaster> http://www.phdcomics.com/comics.php but look at older ones for better jokes
17:55:39 <ehird> i think fizzie linked one of those once.
17:55:39 <AnMaster> there is even a "highlights" section under "about"
17:55:54 <ehird> love that mystery meat navigation there
17:55:57 <AnMaster> ehird, quite possible. The one about thesis title?
17:56:04 <ehird> AnMaster: ehm, I think so
17:56:08 <fizzie> Yes, I think I linked that one.
17:56:26 <fizzie> *foop* You summoned me here.
17:56:36 <ehird> fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie
17:56:44 <ehird> HELLO line of fizzie clones how ARE you
17:56:48 <AnMaster> ehird, yep sounds right. Some of those are quite good. But IME the jokes get a bit repetitive after a while
17:56:58 <ehird> Why did the chicken cross the road?
17:57:03 <ehird> To get to the other side. To get to the other side. To get to the other side. To get to the other side.
17:57:11 <fizzie> Hello. Hi. Hello. Elloh. Hola. Hi. We're just fine.
17:57:55 <ehird> ^ul ((fizzie )S:^):^
17:57:56 <fungot> fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fi ...too much output!
17:58:06 <ehird> are there infinite yous are only the one mentioned in my program + the ones that got output?
17:58:11 <AnMaster> ehird, doesn't work when a bot does it
17:58:20 <AnMaster> especially not one he coded himsef
17:58:21 <ehird> sure it does, it's just a question how much.
17:59:20 <fizzie> Sorry, I had to kill an infinite number of clones to get the keyboard. Yes, there were many.
17:59:39 <ehird> fizzie: can I hire you as a hitman?
17:59:44 <ehird> I've got some monkeys wasting time
17:59:48 <ehird> and I'd like to sell the typewriters
18:00:06 <fizzie> I think the PETA might complain.
18:00:25 <ehird> ^ul ((fizzie )S:^):^
18:00:25 <fungot> fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fi ...too much output!
18:00:39 <ehird> whichever one of you doesn't give a shit about animals and likes the number 29346238472348234234, come to the keyboard
18:01:28 <fizzie> Sorry, we all decided to go get some snacks. It may take a while for us to find enough. -Z
18:01:54 <ehird> fizzie: eat the monkeys!
18:02:30 <fizzie> "Eat the monkey and win", isn't that the popular banner ad. (Really gone now.)
18:04:32 <AnMaster> <fizzie> "Eat the monkey and win", isn't that the popular banner ad. (Really gone now.) <-- HUH?
18:05:59 <ehird> "Atheists Can't Prove That Richard Dawkins Exists." --title of a post on a blog that I can't ascertain whether is a parody or not
18:10:18 <ehird> AnMaster: link me to that recent linux root exploit?
18:10:54 <AnMaster> I forgot what the last one was about at all
18:10:55 <ehird> don't remember, but very recent
18:11:00 <ehird> and going back many versions
18:16:48 <AnMaster> something about a parameter not being checked properly
18:17:03 <AnMaster> and with sendpage or sendfile or something
18:33:32 <Ilari> the network stack NULL pointer call?
18:36:38 <ehird> presumably it's been patched, though
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18:37:06 <ehird> the first one Sgeo
18:37:09 <ehird> the third one Sgeo
18:37:21 <ehird> there, queue of answers to the inevitable questions added to
18:38:09 <Sgeo> Is C++ a good language? Should I use Linux instead of Windows?
18:38:21 <ehird> i never specified the order of the additions.
18:38:56 <Ilari> ehird: Yeah. Setting mmap limit to nonzero and desuiding the pulseaudio wrapper should make exploiting it harder (and if you have SELinux, remove those mmap_zero's)...
18:39:30 <ehird> I'll just use Ubuntu's presumably-patched kernel and not install stupid software. :P
18:41:13 <Ilari> Wonder why there isn't boolean in standard SELinux policy to globally remove all mmap_zero permissions...
18:41:16 <AnMaster> Ilari, desuiding pulseaudio wrapper? hm? why does it need suid to begin with
18:41:54 <ehird> it can't be with a patched kernel, presumably
18:42:02 <ehird> also, uh, to talk to alsa or whatever low-level?
18:42:35 <AnMaster> ehird, hm... yet normal apps can talk to pulseaudio just fine
18:43:08 <ehird> to the root-running pulseaudio daemon.
18:43:33 <AnMaster> it shouldn't be running as root, rather as some special puseaudio user
18:44:05 <ehird> ALSA dictates, presumably.
18:44:11 <Ilari> I think that recent kernels prevent exploiting Pulseaudio for mapping the NULL page.
18:45:20 <AnMaster> Ilari, pulseaudio should fix whatever bug allows such exploiting
18:45:39 <fizzie> ALSA lets normal users speak sound just fine; my guess would be something related to real-time scheduling, if they need such tricks, latency-wide.
18:45:52 <Ilari> I think the root permissions are related to scheduling or so...
18:45:58 <Sgeo> If I ps aux, find someone running a strangely named bash script, and investigate, is that creepy?
18:46:10 <ehird> Sgeo: you already told us about this
18:46:15 <ehird> why do you constantly repeat things
18:46:19 <ehird> fizzie: yes, it's given real-time scheduling permission
18:46:24 <AnMaster> how is it creepy to investigate
18:46:29 <Sgeo> I told you about it, but I didn't ask if it's creepy
18:46:39 <Sgeo> http://codepad.org/xZnbZmru
18:46:46 <ehird> which is a good move, because it turns out you should probably know whether something's creepy or not.
18:46:57 <ehird> I wonder if Sgeo runs around IRL asking such questions
18:47:26 <ehird> Sgeo: that person shouldn't be teaching that glass if they recommend using up all the cpu like that
18:48:03 <fizzie> They should teach Glass more.
18:48:22 <ehird> glass is way too enterprisey!
18:48:30 <AnMaster> yeah especially the Swedish meaning of glass
18:48:40 <ehird> you have to put everything in objects, like Java!
18:48:44 <ehird> AnMaster: esolang fail.
18:48:50 <AnMaster> possibly bacon flavoured and delivered by unicorns
18:49:16 <ehird> <AnMaster> I'm AWARE of the common internet vernacular, and I can PROVE it!
18:49:25 <Gregor> Mmmm, unicorn-flavored bacon.
18:49:34 <ehird> (Sidenote: Vernacular. Great word or greatest word?)
18:49:35 <AnMaster> <ehird> <AnMaster> I'm AWARE of the common internet vernacular, and I can PROVE it!
18:49:45 <ehird> <AnMaster> possibly bacon flavoured and delivered by unicorns
18:50:00 <ehird> you're not very good at it
18:50:19 <AnMaster> ehird, no I wasn't aware of that being any sort of meme or whatever. Just that you seem to 1) love bacon 2) love unicorns and ponies
18:50:51 <ehird> yes, AnMaster; I legitimately love unicorns and ponies.
18:51:14 <Sgeo> Well, what I did is not against the acceptable use policy, unless "private files" covers everything in ~
18:51:15 <AnMaster> ehird, as opposed to illegitimately loving them?
18:51:36 <ehird> AnMaster: can't resist that underage unicorn horn.
18:52:04 <ehird> Sgeo: doesn't really matter, poking around and getting into shit when it's not (a) fun or (b) necessary is probably inadvisable.
18:52:42 <ehird> that's called a deer.
18:53:01 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on where they are mounted
18:56:56 <Gregor> Usually out in the forest.
18:57:00 <Gregor> That's where all the *corns get it on.
18:57:07 <ehird> I was going to mention that, dammit.
18:57:22 <ehird> But nooooo, I went, "ELLIOTT, FOR ONCE BE MATURE AND DON'T TURN THE TOPIC TO DEER SEX".
18:57:58 -!- Gregor has set topic: #esoteric: A channel for and about deer sex. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:58:21 -!- ehird has set topic: #esoteric: for deer sex, by deer sex | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:58:29 <ehird> We are all the abstract concept of deer sex.
18:58:53 -!- AnMaster has set topic: #esoteric: for dear sex, by dear sex | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:59:59 <AnMaster> at least it should represent the views on that stuff quite well in here.
19:00:22 -!- ehird has set topic: #esoteric: for unicorn sex, by deer sex | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
19:00:34 -!- AnMaster has set topic: #esoteric: for unicorn sex, by pony sex | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
19:00:47 -!- ehird has set topic: #esoteric: pony up for sex, unicorn sex | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
19:01:07 <ehird> Legalise unicorn prostitution!
19:01:23 <ehird> I fully support ponies having sex with unicorns, if that's what they're up for.
19:01:34 <ehird> Great value: two jokes for the price of one.
19:03:38 * Sgeo starts installing Haskell stuff
19:03:46 <ehird> Sgeo: install the haskell platform.
19:04:11 <ehird> also, use emacs to edit with the latest haskell-mode with haskell-indentation.
19:04:15 <Sgeo> Also installing Leksah and WinHugs (does WinHugs use the Haskell platform?)
19:04:17 <ehird> unless you like gnawing your hair out
19:04:24 <ehird> winhugs uses hugs instead of ghci
19:04:29 <ehird> different implementations
19:04:52 <Sgeo> Right, but does hugs implement all the stuff that the platform provides to haskell programs?
19:05:03 <ehird> The Platform is just GHC + some libraries.
19:05:10 <ehird> Hugs fails. It's old and doesn't support many of the things GHC does.
19:05:12 <pikhq> Hugs is freaking old.
19:05:20 <pikhq> It's like 3 years out of date.
19:05:24 <ehird> As Gregor can attest, even Hugs' author tells people to use GHC.
19:05:41 <AnMaster> ehird, officially on the website?
19:05:48 <ehird> No, when teaching a course.
19:05:53 <Gregor> He's a professor at PSU.
19:06:09 <Sgeo> Does Leksah provide a pretty interface to GHCi, or otherwise have a shell environment?
19:06:23 <AnMaster> Sgeo, what is wrong with plain ghci?
19:06:27 <ehird> Leksah can run GHCi expressions, but it's kind of rubbish.
19:06:28 <pikhq> Leksah? I'm sure it does. Leksah is actually maintained. ;)
19:06:33 <ehird> AnMaster: he's a stupid windows user who doesn't use the CLI :P
19:06:41 <ehird> (Kind of rubbish at running GHCi stuff, that is.)
19:06:52 <Asztal> There's a WinGhci. (But it's annoying.)
19:06:56 <ehird> Asztal: also broken
19:07:03 <ehird> it freezes on startup if you resize the windows
19:07:24 <Sgeo> WTF does resizing a window have to do with whehter it freezes or not?
19:07:33 <Sgeo> Unless it's a game
19:07:37 <ehird> because unmaximizing it stores the window position in the registry
19:07:41 <ehird> and the code that reads it if it's there must break
19:07:42 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> Unless it's a game <-- wth?
19:07:45 <Asztal> ehird: I don't see that here. I just see the wab tab complete doesn't work, and Ctrl-C creates a modal dialog box instead of just... stopping
19:07:59 <AnMaster> does being a game has to do with it
19:08:13 <Sgeo> AnMaster, well, I would expect that a poorly designed game engine might not respond well to having to change where it's drawing to
19:08:27 <AnMaster> Sgeo, I can't imagine what sort of game would do that
19:09:08 <Sgeo> I don't know much about graphics, so..
19:09:12 <AnMaster> ehird, stop ruining my anti-windos attack by cutting it short
19:09:35 <ehird> i say windows one because every game is on windows.
19:09:52 <ehird> yes, the supertux and tux racer developers have probably gone to great lengths ensuring that it works at 8x42 resolution.
19:10:07 <ehird> AnMaster: so are you seriously suggesting a gamer could use linux as their only OS.
19:10:23 <AnMaster> ehird, last I heard portal worked great in wine for example
19:10:31 <AnMaster> I don't know enough to be sure
19:10:38 <ehird> a whole one recent game that linux supports, then
19:10:40 <ehird> a short one, to boot
19:10:48 <AnMaster> ehird, and that "last I heard" was about 2 months after it was released
19:11:46 * Sgeo finally figures out why Leksah is called Leksah
19:12:10 <Sgeo> Reverse the letters
19:12:24 <ehird> the issue is that "Leksah" sounds crap
19:12:26 <AnMaster> I was trying to go for lolcats for "lexer"
19:13:13 <ehird> argh, rearranging audacity toolbars is a bitch
19:13:30 <AnMaster> ehird, oh? You are doing sound editing?
19:14:21 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2TlM0zDLh0 sounds sort of like a beat, so I wanted to speed it up, make it sound more like a beat and then put some silly synth notes on it to be silly, but audacity is making me rather do something more productive like, say, shoot myself
19:14:50 <ehird> AnMaster: drag all the toolbars out, add the main play/record/etc buttons, put the L/R volume meters next to it, then try to add the volume+device selection control as a new toolbar below it
19:15:12 <AnMaster> ehird, hm what is wrong with standard layout
19:15:26 <ehird> it's an eyesore, plus they aren't arranged in any coherent fashion
19:15:26 <Sgeo> I think I broke Leksah by being lazy
19:15:31 <ehird> just all over the place
19:15:48 <AnMaster> ehird, worse or better than gimp?
19:16:06 <ehird> gimp only works well if it's the only thing on your screen, but recent versions have some sort of interaction design
19:16:22 <ehird> the tool options kinda suck and the menu too but the rest is semi-ok
19:18:21 <ehird> it's basically like "UI design", except you start from "how do we accomplish this final task, and what's the most steamlined, discoverable way of doing it?" instead of "how can we arrange the buttons so they're easier to get to?"
19:18:37 <ehird> (i.e., less retarded. well, the latter are still useful, but only if you have a former.)
19:19:08 <Sgeo> Where does Leksah store its data?
19:19:22 <AnMaster> thanks for just reminding me why I hate designing GUIs
19:19:37 <ehird> AnMaster: because you're a programmer, and don't care about non-programmer users?
19:19:46 <ehird> but yeah, programmers are bad at designing UIs, no shit, who doesn't know that?
19:19:46 <AnMaster> Sgeo, duh, just use ghci in either cmd.exe or urxvt
19:19:52 <ehird> leksah is not a ghci.
19:20:02 <ehird> saying "wincrap" makes you sound like an imbecilic 10 year old.
19:20:11 <ehird> AnMaster: leksah is an advanced editor
19:20:18 <ehird> or, if you will, "non-visual studio IDE"
19:20:35 <ehird> it happens to have a keybinding meaning "send the current line to ghci, and give the response".
19:20:56 <AnMaster> ehird, you were talking about evaluating GHCi expressions in it though
19:21:01 <ehird> also, urxvt doesn't exist for windows.
19:21:04 <ehird> only rxvt does, and only with cygwin.
19:21:15 <ehird> msys = fork of cygwin.
19:21:21 <ehird> and it uses rxvt, not urxvt.
19:21:29 <ehird> msys is an even shittier fork of cygwin than cygwin
19:21:34 <AnMaster> ehird, and maybe I misremebered the u then
19:21:38 <ehird> it's both old, and you have to use a patched gcc 2 to compile apps for it
19:21:46 <AnMaster> and well you could compile urxvt for cygwin if you wanted to I bet
19:21:53 <ehird> the rxvt-for-Windows is a port.
19:21:58 <ehird> because rxvt requires X, you see
19:22:16 <ehird> yes, and if you recommend it you have clearly never used a windows environment and then tried it
19:22:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I didn't say I recommended it
19:22:29 <ehird> (being forced to use windows and installing cygwin as an escape hatch doesn't count.)
19:22:39 <AnMaster> being due to not recommending windows to begin with
19:22:39 <ehird> AnMaster: <AnMaster> Sgeo, duh, just use ghci in either cmd.exe or urxvt
19:22:42 <ehird> looks like you did
19:22:55 <AnMaster> ehird, since he said he was using windows anyway
19:23:12 <Sgeo> Oh come on, I can't add fonts to cmd windows?
19:23:22 <ehird> edit the registry, or stop being a fag and use Consolas. :P
19:23:51 <AnMaster> ...or stop being a pipe and use linux?
19:24:10 <ehird> ... just ... the ... shut up.
19:24:18 <Sgeo> "This package is only intended for licensed users of Microsoft Visual Studio 2005 or 2008."
19:24:25 <AnMaster> "just the shut up" <-- why just it?
19:24:34 <ehird> AnMaster: just the shut up why just it?
19:24:35 <Sgeo> Consolas Font Pack
19:24:37 <ehird> I can ignore punctuation too.
19:24:44 <ehird> Sgeo: so fucking what.
19:24:51 <ehird> you can get it with powerpoint too
19:24:57 <ehird> some free download anyway
19:26:17 <Sgeo> Ugh, I have to install cygwin to use Leksah?
19:26:39 <ehird> Sgeo: linux also works</AnMaster>
19:27:16 <ehird> implicit start tags. just like the valid omitting of </p>
19:27:50 <ehird> implicit start tags aren't, but end tags are.
19:28:09 <AnMaster> and that is invalid omitting of end tag. Not invalid omitting of start tag
19:28:27 <Sgeo> .....Leksah just opened
19:28:30 <ehird> really, well the w3c is widely respected and you're some malcontent on IRC, so I think I'll ignore your blathering and go with what the actual HTML standard says.
19:29:25 <ehird> that doesn't give you the right to decide that i'm talking in xml, also fuck off, I don't give a shit, it's talking on IRC, not a vali-fucking-dator
19:29:26 <FireFly> HTML is an extension of SGML, isn't it?
19:30:42 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:31:44 * Sgeo will just use GHCi
19:34:52 <ehird> Sgeo: and emacs + haskell-mode + haskell-indentation. nothing else can indent haskell with accuracy
19:35:11 <Sgeo> That would require me to learn emacs :/
19:35:44 <ehird> C-x C-s saves, C-x C-f opens a file, C-x C-c quits, M-x regex-replace or replace-regex, I forget, does what it says on the tin
19:39:31 <Sgeo> Ugh, I can't really try out these examples with GHCi
19:39:46 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
19:39:58 <ehird> So put them in a file and run them.
19:40:13 -!- kar8nga has joined.
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19:45:51 <AnMaster> ehird, you tried windows 7 right?
19:46:23 <AnMaster> a question about it: is it ready to use once you logged in, or does it take minutes after like vista does?
19:46:44 <ehird> immediately, although I fully expect Vista is the same. windows systems decay, presumably because the software tends to fuck things up.
19:47:07 <ehird> out of the box, windows isn't bad... it's just that almost all commercial software fucks it up, and it's hard to totally uninstall anything
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19:47:38 <AnMaster> ehird, well, given that vista was newly installed on my thinkpad when I got it and it then took half a minute from desktop showed up until it was ready to use
19:47:52 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah, that vista wasn't stock.
19:48:08 <ehird> lenovo had their way with it, for one adding ThinkVantage - you have a button for it on your keyboard - and god knows what else they decided to give you
19:48:27 <ehird> 7 is a lot more lightweight than vista, though
19:48:38 <AnMaster> linux take maybe 1 or 2 seconds after desktop show up until it is ready to use. so maybe 5 seconds after pressing enter after entering password? something like that
19:48:42 <ehird> if you have a semi-recent graphics card (= enough to run Aero) it's very snappy
19:48:51 <ehird> snappier than XP, I'd say
19:49:14 <AnMaster> 7 being snappier or vista being snappier?
19:51:31 <ehird> i'll probably dual-boot ubuntu and 7 on my notebook
19:51:44 <ehird> although i'm not sure what disk space to give 7 with the probable anemic disk space of 160GB
19:53:36 <ehird> i don't feel like battling with WINE.
19:53:58 <ehird> i'm sorry, what did you just say? slowbox?
19:54:12 <AnMaster> ehird, not really with hardware support for it
19:54:20 <ehird> if you're running a word processor.
19:54:30 <AnMaster> quite acceptable, of course not like 100% native speed, good enough for most non-3D apps
19:54:42 <ehird> non-3d apps for windows are basically useless unless you're doing CAD or something.
19:54:59 <ehird> but not realtime 3d
19:55:24 <AnMaster> <ehird> linux has it all. <-- yeah, thus no need for windows ;P
19:55:48 <ehird> hmm, seems like the cheapest price for a new 160 GB X25-M is 290 pounds
19:56:03 <ehird> $462 sure is a sweeter price than the >$700 they cost over here (and over there) last generation.
19:56:10 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah, I can ignore words like "price" too.
19:56:14 <ehird> this kb has no pound key in linux
19:56:22 <AnMaster> ehird, it was too tempting to avoid
19:58:14 <ehird> yes, I know of that
19:58:15 <ehird> it doesn't work here
19:58:25 <ehird> and that's what I'd like to use
19:59:09 <AnMaster> ehird, try Swedish kb layout, it works then
19:59:15 <Asztal> but how much does it weigh when it's full?
19:59:40 <AnMaster> Asztal, almost another 290 pound I guess
19:59:48 <ehird> Asztal: well let's see
20:00:02 <ehird> looking for the figure for one gb
20:00:26 <AnMaster> btw, how does harddrives and SSD compare in weight?
20:00:38 <ehird> AnMaster: SSDs are much lighter
20:00:46 <ehird> 81g for some samsung 256G(i)B SSD
20:01:09 <ehird> "Every Gigabyte counts as 5oz of extra weight for your computer.There has been cases (in computers with 1Tb of Hard drive and more) of people left eMule activated 3 days and when that people returned to the computer,there was a hole in the floor instead"
20:01:38 <ehird> conclusion: it gets lighter the more you store
20:01:44 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:02:23 <ehird> AnMaster: did you see that really high-resolution thinkpad screen i mentioned?
20:02:44 <ehird> 21:08:26 <ehird> ok, the highest PPI display I know of that isn't the ibm thingy: the 2048x1356 15" for thinkpads
20:02:44 <ehird> 21:08:32 <ehird> 163.75 PPI
20:02:44 <ehird> 21:08:39 <ehird> *squints*
20:03:19 <ehird> can put them in T60s (with some hacking) and two R models of a similar time, iirc
20:03:23 <ehird> AnMaster: the ibm twhatevers
20:03:26 <ehird> the 200something ones
20:03:38 <ehird> but these are notebook-sized
20:03:57 <ehird> http://images.tigerdirect.com/itemDetails/t221-med.jpg
20:03:58 <ehird> don't you remember
20:04:10 -!- SimonRC has joined.
20:04:11 <ehird> you said you wanted one
20:04:33 <AnMaster> iirc it was a NEC that I wanted
20:04:40 <ehird> that wasn't high-ppi
20:04:45 <ehird> anyway, 2048x1356 is the kind of stuff you see in 30" displays and there's basically nothing more
20:04:55 <ehird> so packing it into a semi-light, thin 15" is just awesome
20:05:01 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, good colours is better than high dpi
20:05:24 <ehird> who cares about colours if you can fit 10 windows on the screen
20:05:34 <ehird> I'd take a monochrome with a huge ppi
20:06:27 <ehird> if you're a photographer.
20:06:49 <ehird> but typographers have a science behind it and photographers just throw shit together, so eat a dick, colours
20:07:06 <AnMaster> ehird, photos also have a science behind
20:07:25 <AnMaster> lots of studies on that sort of stuff
20:07:32 <ehird> nothing like typographer.
20:07:44 <AnMaster> ehird, about the same I would say
20:07:57 <ehird> no, because judging a photo is still ultimately just subjective bullshit
20:11:23 -!- augur_ has quit ("Leaving...").
20:11:31 <ehird> epiphany webkit is so unstable :(
20:19:09 <Sgeo> When Windows opens GHCi when I double-click a .hs file, can I force the resulting window to use an icon?
20:19:29 <ehird> Sgeo really cares abut his specific terminals having an icon.
20:20:44 -!- sebbu has joined.
20:22:08 <ehird> "Submitted 6 minutes ago, 2022 upvotes, 2 downvotes" --reddit
20:22:26 <ehird> (now: Submitted 10 minutes ago, 2078 upvotes, 13 downvotes)
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20:54:28 <AnMaster> <Gregor> chmod -R 5777 / <-- 5777?
20:54:47 <Gregor> (And sticky, for some reason)
20:55:02 <AnMaster> Gregor, reason for this complete messup of system?
20:55:18 <Gregor> I just like f***ing things up?
20:56:04 <AnMaster> Gregor, ok. Easy to fix in freebsd, running mtree as root
20:56:14 <AnMaster> won't fix it for non-base system though
20:57:52 <fizzie> There's a brainfuck interp, and I think it's unlimited-tape.
20:58:05 <AnMaster> how do you do flow control in it?
20:59:03 <AnMaster> hm the loop should be possible to use for it
21:00:24 <ehird> Also, you could recurse.
21:00:43 <ehird> Gregor: is chmod -R 5777 / setgid too?
21:01:32 -!- SimonRC has joined.
21:01:51 <Gregor> (Or 6777, if you don't care about sticky)
21:02:07 <ehird> 7777: the permissions of the kings.
21:03:14 -!- augur has joined.
21:03:52 <Ilari> X-Mas permissions, or lamp test permissions...
21:03:58 <fizzie> 77777; it has all the permissions, but it's also simultaneously a FIFO, a character device and a directory.
21:04:44 <Ilari> AnMaster: 'lamp test segment'.
21:05:08 <fizzie> "A Christmas tree packet is a packet with every single option set for whatever protocol is in use. Also known as a "Kamikaze" packet, nastygram, and lamp test segment."
21:05:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah, I didn't know that synonym
21:05:36 <AnMaster> and yes I know what a xmas packet
21:05:40 <ehird> which is cooler: JFS or XFS?
21:05:52 <ehird> both of you: justify.
21:06:04 <ehird> all three of you: justify. Gregor: butterflies.
21:06:19 <ehird> butterfly-tornado-fs
21:06:53 <AnMaster> ehird, jfs is known to cause issues (corruption) with vmware for example, and other apps. Also the defrag tool for jfs is not available for linux. While the online defrag tool for xfs is
21:07:12 <ehird> I don't use vmware, and I don't need to defrag an SSD.
21:07:15 <AnMaster> and xfs supports lot of cool features that jfs doesn't
21:08:16 <AnMaster> ehird, well not something you will use. It's for redundant setups... Like multiple ways to reach the same hardware. IIRC xfs has some file system driver level support for it
21:08:22 <AnMaster> to make the best possible use of it
21:08:30 <ehird> Right, doesn't really bother me.
21:08:41 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure about online resizing with jfs, xfs supports it though
21:08:48 <ehird> Oh, what about btrfs? I gather itm ostly has a cool internal structure like ext4 and no actual real-world fun features.
21:08:51 <AnMaster> and in my experience xfs is really good
21:08:53 <ehird> (And it's also unstable, presumably.)
21:09:01 <AnMaster> but that is harddrive experience
21:09:29 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway xfs has lots of real-world fun features
21:09:36 <AnMaster> and since Ilari isn't about to justify...
21:09:41 <ehird> The performance difference for XFS vs JFS vs ext3 probably won't be very large.
21:09:54 <AnMaster> ehird, I would go ext4, not ext3
21:09:57 <ehird> Not ext4; if I'm going fun, I'll go *fun*.
21:10:10 <ehird> ext3 is what Ubuntu does by default when you use one of the predefined install options, I think.
21:10:14 <ehird> If it's ext4 I'll use that instead.
21:10:21 <Ilari> That was picking from XFS and JFS. And since I have seen what XFS does in just regular system lockup...
21:10:25 <ehird> Gregor: just don't name any files nina!
21:10:32 <Gregor> The FS won't kill ya :P
21:10:51 <ehird> It actually phones home. Nina was using a pre-alpha version, we were going to be next...
21:10:58 <ehird> (^ Could make a really, really bad movie)
21:11:12 <AnMaster> ehird, you forgot a "really" there
21:11:42 <AnMaster> this would be WORSE than plan9 from outer space
21:12:03 <Gregor> But still better than Gayniggers from Outer Space
21:12:08 <ehird> Plan 9 is a good movie, from what I hear; bad, but that gives it art.
21:12:13 <ehird> I'm far more interested in things that are simply bad.
21:12:28 <ehird> Plan 9's redeeming quality is its hysterical badness; but a movie on the outskirts of badness is just really, really bad.
21:12:30 <ehird> The latter is far more fun.
21:12:55 <ehird> If you laugh because a part's really bad, it's probably not just bad. :P
21:13:14 <AnMaster> ehird, you are saying plan9 is so bad it is good?
21:13:15 <SimonRC> On another topic... do you know if is a way to recover from the root device on linux disappearing and reappearing.
21:13:42 <SimonRC> I was thinking something that left everything intact
21:13:51 <AnMaster> SimonRC, using a tmpfs as root to begin with
21:13:58 <ehird> AnMaster: Plan 9 is probably so bad it's good, yes.
21:14:00 <ehird> Never seen it myself.
21:14:12 <AnMaster> ehird, I seen short sections from it
21:14:32 <ehird> Anyway, does anybody know if Ubuntu optimises hibernation? Because on this desktop, it takes like 30 seconds to hibernate and resuming is really slow too.
21:14:35 <AnMaster> and horribly bad plot on wikipedia
21:14:39 <ehird> Does LinuxOnIce have an Ubuntu package or something?
21:15:04 <AnMaster> ehird, takes like 10 seconds to suspend to disk and 5 seconds to resume for me on my laptop
21:15:10 <SimonRC> AnMaster: is the tmpfs thing something you know will work or just an idea?
21:15:10 <ehird> I don't really care about resume time (RAM-based suspension ftw) but I want to hybrid-sleep so I can not worry about losing my data, and that should only take one or two seconds.
21:15:10 <AnMaster> suspend to ram is of course a LOT faster
21:15:31 <ehird> OS X can hybrid-sleep in about three seconds on this non-SSD computer, so...
21:15:33 <AnMaster> SimonRC, well it will obviously not depend on the root device then
21:15:39 <AnMaster> SimonRC, so thus it should work
21:15:55 <AnMaster> SimonRC, of course you need quite a bit of ram for it
21:16:17 <AnMaster> <ehird> I don't really care about resume time (RAM-based suspension ftw) but I want to hybrid-sleep so I can not worry about losing my data, and that should only take one or two seconds. <-- don't think linux does that
21:16:17 <SimonRC> ideally I want something like there is for nfs...
21:16:37 <AnMaster> SimonRC, just use an internal disk
21:16:44 <SimonRC> if you lose network, everything that tries to use it just hang until the network scomes back, then continues as normal
21:16:57 <AnMaster> SimonRC, that depends on options
21:17:00 <SimonRC> AnMaster: my internal disk makes funny noises and doesn't mount
21:17:13 <AnMaster> SimonRC, um. time to get a replacement
21:17:13 <SimonRC> (I will get it fixed soon)
21:17:38 <ehird> AnMaster: does what?
21:17:43 <ehird> Of course there's hybrid-suspend.
21:17:51 <ehird> <AnMaster> <ehird> I don't really care about resume time (RAM-based suspension ftw) but I want to hybrid-sleep so I can not worry about losing my data, and that should only take one or two seconds. <-- don't think linux does that
21:18:10 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, but afaik that isn't what suspend does on linux
21:18:27 <ehird> I don't care what the menu items do.
21:19:08 <ehird> what do you mean, hm
21:19:50 <AnMaster> what do you mean "what do you mean, hm"
21:20:32 <ehird> see: pm-suspend-hybrid
21:20:38 <ehird> of course linux does it
21:21:41 <ehird> grr, apparently that's not the same as os x's behaviour
21:21:44 <ehird> why is linux so retarded
21:22:19 <AnMaster> ehird, what is os x behaviour and what is linux behaviour?
21:22:49 <ehird> os x's is "do the same writing out that hibernation does, then RAM-suspend; if we reboot before resuming, it wakes from hibernation"
21:23:01 <ehird> since OS X's hibernation is so fast, this allows quick resume times while being safe
21:23:24 <ehird> linux's is, I don't know, but from what I gather it does something similar, except it wakes from hibernation when you turn it on
21:23:29 <ehird> so the only thing you skip is the BIOS and GRUb
21:23:40 <ehird> == most retardedly pointless thing ever dreamt of in the history of the universe
21:25:46 <AnMaster> not as far as I can tell from the documentation
21:25:53 <fizzie> I don't know what's up with that; but with "s2both" (which does the "write hibernation stuff to disk and go to s3 sleep or whatever) the waking-up is just a second or two.
21:26:07 <ehird> importantly, fast suspend and fast resume are super-important on notebooks, and yet I won't carry a batteried notebook around knowing my data is stored so fragile in RAM
21:26:12 <AnMaster> but writing to disk still takes quite a bit of time
21:26:17 <ehird> so I need what I said: fast hibernation that then suspends to RAM and resumes from RAM
21:26:48 <ehird> AnMaster: surely doesn't have to be the case; OS X does it in one or two seconds with 2.5GiB of RAM of which I've used almost all and a notebook HD
21:27:13 <AnMaster> maybe depends on speed of disk
21:27:48 <ehird> either 5400rpm or 7200rpm, don't know. My notebook will be maxing out the 1.5Gb/s (gigabit) original-SATA bus with my SSD.
21:27:51 <fizzie> Well, the hybrid-hibernation I've been using certainly resumes from RAM. But the write-to-disk stage is not really very fast on Linux; I'm not sure how it compares to OS X, since I haven't ever gotten the iBook to do anything else than suspend-to-RAM.
21:28:16 <ehird> (the motherboard's my biggest enemy in that machine... only original SATA, limited to 3GiB of RAM (with BIOS hacks, you can get something like 3.7GiB))
21:29:25 <ehird> because nobody had more than 2GiB those days, so they just reserved a whole GiB for graphics card memory + internal system stuff + blah blah
21:29:45 <ehird> in practice they use something like .3-.5GiB, but if you plug in too many components like ExpressCard you may run out, I gues
21:30:15 <ehird> anyway, if I use all 3.7GiB (all of it, all allocated and not in swap or anything) then the absolute theoretical minimum time it can suspend to disk is 19.73 seconds
21:30:17 <ehird> limited by the SATA bus
21:30:28 <ehird> assuming memory latency is 0
21:30:38 <ehird> AnMaster: 32-bit address space, I think
21:30:42 <ehird> even though the cpu can be 64-bit
21:31:11 <AnMaster> (it is the physical adress space of current x86_64 cpus=
21:31:24 <ehird> the cpu itself is 64-bit
21:31:27 <ehird> see e.g. registers
21:31:45 <ehird> anyway, you can plug in 8GiB or whatever (well, maybe; it might not accept that) but it still just reserves the top GiB of the address space
21:31:55 <ehird> again, I'll probably use the BIOS hack to up this to ~3.7GiB
21:32:02 <AnMaster> actually my intel core 2 duo is 36 bit physical but 48 bits virtual
21:32:09 <ehird> maybe even work on theories to get more out of it
21:32:28 <AnMaster> and the architecture can go up to 64 bits in theory yes
21:32:54 <ehird> still, I can only use 4GiB if I use the T61 or later, and the only 4:3 screen they had was a not-very-popular 14" with a quite low resolution
21:33:05 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't you claim non-widescreen was dead when you talked to me about me buying a notebook
21:33:06 <ehird> so I'll have to dela
21:33:27 <ehird> AnMaster: it is, nothing is sold any more in 4:3
21:33:33 <ehird> but, based on my love for widescreen desktops, I assumed this was a good thing
21:34:06 <ehird> wow, the group of jerks called, they want their jerk back.
21:35:10 <AnMaster> address sizes : 40 bits physical, 48 bits virtual
21:35:41 <AnMaster> so my old sempron has larger physical address space than my core 2 duo
21:35:49 <ehird> it's good that the T60 was wildly popular, so me and my T60p should have a lot of fellow users to get by in this modern world...
21:36:17 <ehird> still, core 2 duo, SSD, almost 4GiB of RAM, 1600x1200, it isn't such a horrific world :P
21:36:21 <fizzie> You're feeling restricted by the 64 gigabyte physical address space of the core 2?
21:36:36 <AnMaster> ehird, alternatively get a very high res widescreen notebook?
21:36:50 <AnMaster> thus giving you the possibility of having multiple windows side by side
21:37:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, that is a mobile core 2 duo, not sure if that matters
21:37:41 <AnMaster> possibly you need a server cpu to go higher
21:38:54 <fizzie> Possibly; the Core 2 Quad Q9400 says "36 bits physical" in /proc/cpuinfo, at least.
21:39:07 <fizzie> I don't know about the i7 hardware.
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21:40:45 <fizzie> Hey, that's a bit strange.
21:40:48 <fizzie> "address sizes : 32 bits physical, 48 bits virtual"
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21:41:54 <fizzie> That's on the "model name: Intel(R) Atom(TM) CPU 230 @ 1.60GHz" box. I guess it makes sort-of sense there.
21:42:35 <fizzie> A Xeon E5430, to be specific: address sizes : 38 bits physical, 48 bits virtual
21:44:21 <AnMaster> still two less than my old sempron from late 2005
21:45:30 <fizzie> AMD seems to do that 40 bits across the models; it's 40 on your sempron, 40 on my Athlon X2, and 40 on our Opteron 248 and Opteron 2220 SE cluster nodes.
21:48:49 <AnMaster> you sure have access to a lot of computers
21:49:11 <AnMaster> what is the 48 bit virtual about?
21:49:45 <fizzie> I assume it's about the 48-bit virtual address size limit we've talked about and all.
21:50:01 <AnMaster> and 36 or whatever is how much physical it can adress
21:50:32 <fizzie> That might even map directly to the number of address pins.
21:55:14 <fizzie> Well, it seems to read from the CPUID results (how surprising) when those are available. Though there are quite a lot of constant phys_bits settings too; like phys_bits = 36 when X86_FEATURE_PAE exists.
22:00:18 <fizzie> There's some comp.os.vms posting where some guy says desktop Nehalem variants (incl. i7) have 36 physical bits, Xeon 5500 (which I guess is the Nehalem server-side) series have the same 40 bits AMD does, the upcoming Nehalem-EX eight-core server chips should do 44 bits, and Itanium in general has 50 physical bits.
22:00:59 <fizzie> Unsourced statements, of course.
22:01:27 <ehird> Itanium: for when you have 1TB.
22:02:02 <ehird> Pebibytes, you mean.
22:02:15 <fizzie> I guess so, though it sounds a bit silly.
22:02:25 <ehird> yes, the bi expansions are
22:02:40 <fizzie> Not as silly as the next one: exbibyte.
22:02:41 <ehird> wonder what an exabyte is
22:03:00 <ehird> Yobibyte is my new favourite thing ever.
22:03:36 <fizzie> They should really get cracking with hardware design so that we'd get to actually use those names.
22:04:29 <ehird> What about the imaginary-but-easily-derivable binarified SI prefixes?
22:04:52 <ehird> Debibyte. Cebibyte. Milbibte.
22:05:09 <ehird> Fembibyte. Atbibyte. Zepbibyte.
22:05:46 <fizzie> Nanbibyte... or would that just be the more easily pronounceable nambibyte?
22:05:46 * SimonRC recommends that any of you not reading the latest MS Paint Adventure (Homestuck) should be
22:05:50 <ehird> (Note: All of these are sub-bits. :P)
22:06:32 <fizzie> Debibyte sounds very Debianish. Though it is a bit unclear whether that's a binary decibyte or a binary decabyte.
22:06:54 <ehird> A hebibyte is 2**7 bytes.
22:07:06 <ehird> fizzie: Decbibyte, then.
22:07:40 <fizzie> Is a decbibyte 2^3 then?
22:08:25 <ehird> fizzie: Decabibyte and decibibyte, I guess. :P
22:08:44 <ehird> But semi isn't an SI prefix.
22:08:46 <SimonRC> (a binry semi, not a SI one ;-) )
22:09:17 <ehird> The obsolete prefixes such as myrio- and myria- (denoting a factor of 10,000) were dropped before SI was adopted in 1960, probably because they did not fit this pattern, no one-letter symbol was available (M, m, and µ already being used; the two-letter symbols mo and ma were used instead) and were rarely used anyway.
22:09:30 <ehird> Mybibyte. (Bonus: Sounds like mebibyte.)
22:09:52 <fizzie> I don't really like the rounding involved in 2^3 and 2^7, but I guess you don't very often happen to have 2^(10/3) or 2^(20/3) bytes.
22:10:03 <ehird> Either 16384 or 8192 bytes, I guess.
22:11:02 <fizzie> If a decabibyte is 2^3 = 8 bytes, that's a reasonably useful size. You don't have to say "this structure contains three qword-wide fields" when you can opt for "this structure contains three decabibyte-sized fields".
22:11:47 <ehird> The z and y on the extreme prefixes zepto-, yocto- and Zetta-, Yotta- suggest the start of a series backwards through the alphabet. Following the initial letters are distorted Greek numerals (h)epta- and octa-. This pattern has been extended further, with the terms xenno-, weko-, vendeko-, udeko- and xenna-, weka-, vendeka-, udeka-, from Greek ennea-, deka-, endeka-, dodeka-; sometimes a t is added for greater differentiation, though both xento-, wekto- et
22:11:47 <ehird> c. and xenta-, wekta- etc. have been proposed.[7]
22:11:58 <fizzie> "The chip is controlled by the memory-mapped decabibyte register at address ..."
22:12:29 <ehird> Vendeko is 10^-33; someone else work out the power of 2.
22:12:48 <ehird> More usefully, 10^33 is vendeka.
22:13:11 <SimonRC> the approximation gets a bit shit by that point
22:13:19 <ehird> 1,073,741,824 yottabytes.
22:13:39 <ehird> SimonRC: Yes; it's 2.98074215 * 10^32 off.
22:14:03 <ehird> Anyway, that's so sci-fi.
22:14:35 <fizzie> "Wait a second, just let me insert my holographic three vendekabibyte memory cube."
22:14:55 <ehird> "The Mother was an impressive system, fitted with the latest giga-core processors -- 10,000 of them. Among its specifications included a vendekabibyte of memory, 1 million vendakabibytes of storage and a webcam and microphone in every home..."
22:14:55 <SimonRC> well, I have seen a 4TB thumb drive
22:15:03 <ehird> SimonRC: presumably not USB
22:15:10 <SimonRC> only in fiction though: http://dresdencodak.com/2007/06/12/the-witching-hour/
22:15:21 <fizzie> "Your search - vendekabibyte - did not match any documents."
22:15:24 <SimonRC> *she stored brain scans on it)
22:15:43 <ehird> fizzie: Yes, well, the vendeka is an unofficial unit that I've just got from one page and I just made up the binary mangling of it. :P
22:15:49 <ehird> SimonRC: surely the brain stores over 4TiB
22:16:23 <fizzie> The "have been proposed" made it sound so serious.
22:17:09 <ehird> It's from "The Physics Hypertextbook", don't you know.
22:17:15 <AnMaster> <ehird> Then a yobibyte. <-- read that as yoshibyte first time around
22:17:32 <ehird> It's a-me, the mariobyte thumb drive!
22:17:33 <fizzie> A yoshibyte is green and it's got a long tongue.
22:18:51 <SimonRC> how does Yoshi eat so much stuff?
22:19:08 <SimonRC> maybe he's bigger on the inside
22:19:26 * SimonRC tries to recall any other character that is bigger on th einside
22:20:06 <SimonRC> and before you say it, Nibbleronians use compression not spacial distortion
22:20:19 <ehird> was going to say that
22:20:20 <AnMaster> <ehird> So Vendekabibyte. <-- read that as vendettabibyte
22:20:30 <ehird> You may call me Vbyte?
22:20:35 <SimonRC> ehird: yeah, 'cause I told them not to
22:22:44 <AnMaster> ehird, time to invoke rule #34 on yoshi?
22:23:32 <ehird> I estimate the probability of the result of that rule 34 already existing in this spatial dimension and being distributed on the internet as about 99.72%.
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22:23:50 <ehird> Oh, fuck you, Google images.
22:24:01 <fizzie> "VndiB for Vendettabibyte".
22:24:27 * SimonRC [redacted] being bigger on the inside [redacted] though that doesn't really count as 34 because it never left my head
22:24:41 <ehird> SimonRC: WHY DIDN'T YOU REDACT THAT WHOLE SENTENCE.
22:24:50 <AnMaster> <ehird> Oh, fuck you, Google images. <-- there is yoshi porn?
22:24:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, and I'm not surprised at all.
22:25:18 <SimonRC> no, he's using new erotiGoogle
22:25:26 <SimonRC> you have to litterally fuck it to get search results
22:25:35 <ehird> "yoshi porn" on Google Images without safe search: one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, weight.
22:25:54 <ehird> First page, that is.
22:26:15 <AnMaster> ehird, how many pics are there in total?
22:26:22 <ehird> Also, one of them is hermaphroditic, so this is possibly the most stereotypical google images search result ever.
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22:26:45 <ehird> 14 images contained Yoshi.
22:27:11 <ehird> So 57.14% of the search results concerning Yoshi were porn.
22:27:15 <augur> where cn i get somma that
22:30:25 * SimonRC goes to get food to help reducse his running nose.
22:30:25 <ehird> a 12-cell thinkpad battery here
22:30:38 <ehird> well, give or take 0.0718474 and a bit.
22:30:48 <ehird> AnMaster: how much does your 6-cell weigh, I wonder?
22:30:54 <ehird> if you have the patience to take it out and check
22:31:08 <ehird> it's quite the imposing thing: http://www.laptoppartsexpert.com/i-59115-battery-12-cell-li-ion.html
22:31:10 <AnMaster> wait a few hours until it chargesd
22:31:14 <ehird> doesn't look like it has a rounded end, though
22:31:15 <AnMaster> don't want to abort it right now
22:31:23 <ehird> in fact it looks to have the same footprint as a 6-cell
22:31:25 <ehird> maybe poking out a little
22:31:53 <ehird> that + UltraBay battery must surely pump some battery life
22:32:31 <ehird> looks to be only for the G40/G41, that, but I'm sure they all work with other models too
22:32:55 <AnMaster> wouldn't work with mine iirc. mine says 12 V I think
22:33:13 <AnMaster> again I can't easily check since the text is on the side hidden from view when it is charging
22:33:20 <ehird> G40/G41 being Celeron/Pentium 4 desktop replacement systems
22:33:48 <ehird> the t60p appears to be 10.8V too
22:33:51 <ehird> http://www.smartbright.co.uk/ibm-thinkpad-t60p-laptop-batteries-4400mah-p-229.html
22:35:17 <AnMaster> ehird, that looks similar, but not identical, to mine
22:35:34 <ehird> the 12-cell is probably third-party
22:36:50 <ehird> so this and the ultrabay battery = 1.14kg total battery solution
22:37:12 <ehird> i'm sure those can pump out 6 hours from a T60p
22:37:34 <AnMaster> if new yeah, but they degrade over time
22:37:48 <ehird> so i'll replace them
22:39:12 <ehird> 2 quarks and a tachyon.
22:39:30 <ehird> (But seriously, wut?)
22:39:54 <AnMaster> ehird, frequency and wavelength. didn't you take physics?
22:40:00 <ehird> I'm aware what wavelength is.
22:40:11 <ehird> I was just checking whether it was something actually meaningful in the context of CPUs that I wasn't aware of.
22:40:32 <ehird> You will note that I responded to your nonsensical-in-context physics with the same. :P
22:41:27 <ehird> Looks like I need an Ultrabay Slim battery.
22:41:43 <AnMaster> But still incorrect... UNLESS you reverse polarity. However that would probably short the CPU so thus the real answer is of course 1 quark and 2 tachyons
22:41:47 <ehird> Which weighs 280g.
22:41:51 <ehird> "Up to 2 hours", apparently.
22:42:00 <ehird> "T60 series, use the Advanced Ultrabay Battery instead
22:42:02 <AnMaster> <ehird> Which weighs 280g. <-- XD
22:42:15 <ehird> The advanced ultrabay battery weighs 235g.
22:42:40 <ehird> Them ThinkPads sure are portable.
22:43:07 <ehird> "UltraslimBay"; distinct from the Ultrabay Slim.
22:43:21 <ehird> Used in ye olde Pentium 1 machines and such.
22:45:16 <fizzie> Ultrabay Slim, a British DJ, big beat musician, record producer and pioneer of the electronic dance genre. Or was that Fatboy?
22:45:47 <fizzie> They could make some sort of IBM-themed music piece under the "Ultrabay Slim" name.
22:46:31 <ehird> Totally gangsta business machines.
22:47:39 <AnMaster> <ehird> Used in ye olde Pentium 1 machines and such. <-- oh?
22:47:47 <ehird> Up to Pentium III, even.
22:48:00 <AnMaster> was that like ultrabay but way back?
22:48:34 <ehird> No, just a slim version, obvious.
22:49:51 <AnMaster> oh btw I have "Serial Ultrabay Enhanced"
22:50:04 <ehird> Serial Ultrabay killer.
22:50:19 <AnMaster> there is Serial Ultrabay Slim too, but that is older
22:52:25 <AnMaster> ehird, btw there is a compat matrix on http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Ultrabay
22:52:35 <ehird> Yes, I saw that name from there.
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22:56:03 <ehird> Seems like the T41 was the last IBM ThinkPad.
22:56:50 <ehird> Hmm, the T42 might be too
22:57:46 <ehird> So the T60 was the first Lenovo.
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23:24:40 <ehird_> AnMaster: T5x was skipped, yeah
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23:32:19 <ehird_> they skipped winamp 4 because nobody wanted to see a winamp 4 skin.
23:32:25 <ehird_> (that's the official explanation)
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23:33:08 <fizzie> I thought they called it Winamp 5 because it was made by combining Winamp 2 and Winamp 3.
23:33:23 <ehird_> Well, that was another explanation.
23:33:41 <fizzie> Oh, yes, they are both "official" in the "is in their FAQ" sense.
23:34:11 <fizzie> Additionally "We think that a Fibonacci sequence for versioning might be pretty damn cool."
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23:35:28 <AnMaster> use grahams number for it. So g_1, g_2 and so on
23:35:49 <ehird_> that's rather infeasible
23:36:28 <AnMaster> I don't remember how large g_1 and g_2 are though
23:37:55 <fizzie> g_1 is already 3^^^^3, where ^ is the up-arrow, so it sounds pretty big.
23:38:01 <ehird_> AnMaster: unimaginably
23:38:26 <ehird_> the typical explanation of graham's number goes through so many mind-boggling steps that you cease to have any sort of recognition at all about what kind of number it is or even that it's a number; just meaningless symbols
23:38:29 <ehird_> turns out that's just g_1.
23:39:57 <AnMaster> lets define g_(-n) to be 1/(g_n)
23:40:49 <fizzie> I like the TeX/metafont versioning, but using that would just be copying.
23:41:41 <ehird_> just use a random number (previous+1,inf].
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23:47:52 <Ilari> 3^^^3 is already 7625597484987th of 3, 27, 7625597484987, ... 3^^^^3 is much bigger.
23:48:53 <ehird_> I wonder what the largest number the human mind can emotionally recognise is.
23:49:31 <AnMaster> it's certainly over 9000 at least
23:49:51 <ehird_> are you at absolute zero?
23:49:58 <ehird_> hm no can't be, you certainly aren't an ice burn
23:50:01 <ehird_> you never change, however
23:50:10 <ehird_> ^^^ MOST ELABORATE BURN EVER?
23:50:20 <AnMaster> ehird_, I wonder if it may vary individually
23:50:36 <AnMaster> I mean about how larger number you can emotionally understand
23:50:50 <ehird_> the monkeysphere is constant, for instance
23:51:28 <ehird_> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar's_number)
23:51:40 <AnMaster> that's about "how many people you can consider human" right?
23:51:51 <ehird_> probably about 150 for humans
23:52:08 <ehird_> (which rather depressingly debunks the idea that direct democracy can work humanely for >150 people)
23:53:05 <AnMaster> I'm not sure who said "Democracy is the worst form of government, apart from all the other ones".
23:53:32 <ehird_> who was both witty and a crazy warmonger
23:53:43 <ehird_> although the former tends to obscure the latter.
23:53:52 <ehird_> AnMaster: hey, i'm a pacifist :P
23:54:04 <ehird_> anyway if you ask the british yooth, churchill is that dog in the insurance adverts. oh yes.
23:54:04 <AnMaster> I think there is some truth in that quote though. Sadly
23:54:36 <ehird_> (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB8r6JefDhI)
23:55:09 <ehird_> (there was an actual survey done.)
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23:55:45 <AnMaster> ehird_, hm "not available in my region"
23:56:34 <ehird_> here's a different one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESOGyiZbUrc
23:58:23 <ehird_> how could you possibly expect our yooth to know the name of the prime minister that won wwii
23:58:41 <fizzie> "wwii, is that some sort of new variant of the Nintendo Wii?"