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00:29:07 <Warrigal> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bother
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01:21:05 * oklopol is trying to get at least one article on tvtropes finished
01:21:59 <oklopol> i mean i can't not get them finished because i keep opening sublinks or anything, the articles are just really, really boring
01:22:52 <coppro> oklopol: oh, you mean read one
01:23:22 <oklopol> i never contribute to any of the web2 stuff
01:23:51 <coppro> tip: don't read every example in a tvtropes article
01:24:47 <coppro> what's git's equivalent of checkout?
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01:59:49 <Ilari> coppro: What you mean by "checkout"?
02:02:00 <Ilari> coppro: Checkout in approximately the meaning SVN uses it?
02:08:41 <coppro> Ilari: yeah, got it, thanks for asking
02:09:24 <Ilari> coppro: Useful git lession: Figure out exactly what clone does.
02:09:44 <coppro> Ilari: heh. I know what it does. Distributed RCS and all
02:09:59 <coppro> I just don't care when I'm trying to retrieve a source tree so I can build + install
02:10:20 <Ilari> coppro: There's also the infamous remote snapshot.
02:10:44 <Ilari> coppro: Infamous because it almost never works.
02:11:04 <Ilari> (due to server not authorizing it).
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07:39:48 <fizzie> The "job offers" noticeboard here was crowded enough so the posters had been interleaved a bit; one had changed so that they were now looking for "Python oders".
07:40:11 <fizzie> I'm sure there is at least one "Ode to Python" thing, but I didn't realize you could do that sort of thing professionally.
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08:15:06 <Rugxulo> no ehird? I'm surprised ...
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09:02:06 <ais523> ouch, Evolution seems to have deleted my timetable
09:02:20 <ais523> also, I left my keys at home
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10:14:46 <ais523> wb everyone who was on the other side of that netsplitt
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16:01:30 * ais523 is annoyed at today's lecture about Latex
16:01:44 <ais523> the lecturer was trying to enumerate a number of things that differed between Latex and word
16:01:54 <ais523> but all but one was actually a similarity rather than a difference
16:02:08 <ais523> there /are/ reasons to use Latex over Word, but he didn't actually manage any of them
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16:54:56 <AnMaster> ais523, lets see... I can think of think of: consistent formatting, better math support, good support for citations and such through bibtex, much better line breaking algorithm (two justified margins looks horrible in word), easy to automate stuff with it (auto generating tables from source data or such, sure word has VBA but no one can claim that is easy to use..), and several more
16:55:11 <AnMaster> which of those did he mention?
16:55:28 <ais523> oh, he did get the line breaking algorithm
16:55:35 <ais523> none of the others, though
16:55:45 <ais523> he did mention lots of things that both Word and LaTeX are good at
16:55:53 <ais523> and claimed them as advantages for LaTeX
16:56:00 <AnMaster> ais523, line breaking algorithm is a fairly minor point compared to the three first ones
16:56:19 <AnMaster> bibtex in particular is wonderful
16:56:25 <ais523> consistent formatting is possible in Word using styles
16:56:42 <AnMaster> ais523, easy to break by unapplying the style for some part IME
16:57:10 <AnMaster> and that easily happens by mistake
16:57:11 <ais523> yes, but if you're careful not to break it, you can manage it
16:57:49 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah you need to be super-careful to fool word's "helpful" features trying to guess what sort of formatting you want too
16:58:26 <AnMaster> ais523, and it takes a bit of setup to get it working. With LaTeX it is the default
16:58:50 <AnMaster> I mean, you don't have to figure out where to set sections to be numbered for example
17:06:12 <ais523> I have it installed, but I haven't used it
17:06:22 <AnMaster> the UI looks horrible. think xdialog style on controls
17:10:26 <AnMaster> oh you need to add colours to a palette before you can use them if you don't want any of the standard ~35 or so
17:11:22 <AnMaster> ais523, btw about LaTeX. Any good way to include nice looking function graphs? Like say y=x^2 or something like that
17:11:33 <AnMaster> nice looking, vector graphics if possible
17:11:37 <ais523> there's probably a package for it
17:11:53 <AnMaster> ais523, sure but I have no clue what one.
17:12:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw it turned out there was a package to illustrate the Gaussian method http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/gauss/
17:14:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, now I just have to learn how to use that without messing up the system installation (basically I want to install it somewhere in $HOME
17:15:53 <fizzie> I have a feeling that TeX installations by default include ~/texmf in the relevant paths, but it needs to be a proper texmf tree.
17:16:24 <fizzie> Personally I've just been putting such approximately-one-use-only packages to the same directory with the .tex file itself.
17:16:47 <fizzie> http://www.tex.ac.uk/cgi-bin/texfaq2html?label=privinst is something I've referred to before, I think.
17:18:54 <AnMaster> hm what does *.sty actually stand for?
17:23:07 <AnMaster> btw I found out cfunge bzr needed a later cmake than 2.6... 2.6.3 at least. This is actually due to how the ncurses check is now done after input on it from ehird
17:23:46 <AnMaster> (basically it turns out "if" in cmake before 2.6.3 didn't support parentheses...)
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17:38:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, given a *.sty or such with embedded latex documentation as comments how do you generate the documentation pdf from it
17:44:03 <fizzie> If it's a .dtx file, which is that "literate-tex, can create both documentation and code" thing, it should be possible to just run it through LaTeX as a source file to generate the documentation.
17:44:20 <fizzie> It redefines % no longer to be a comment or something; I don't really know the details.
17:47:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, it is actually an *.sty
17:49:00 <fizzie> Well, it might be still in the correct "doc" package format; I don't know. Have you tried to feed it to LaTeX like that?
17:50:02 <AnMaster> LaTeX Warning: You have requested package `',
17:50:02 <AnMaster> but the package provides `gauss'.
17:52:56 <fizzie> Yes, I guess it's not a doc/docstrip-using literate-tex file; the comments seem to be just, well, comments.
17:53:44 <AnMaster> hm doc/docstrip might be worth a try
17:54:17 <fizzie> It's not that; if it were using that style, it should be runnable as a tex file to generate the documentation.
17:56:34 <fizzie> Hmm, or actually I'm not sure; I guess the doc package uses a separate driver file.
17:58:34 <fizzie> It's like a normal article file, except it does \usepackage{doc} and \DocInput{blah.dtx} (or .sty, I guess), and it'll slurp in the comment lines there.
17:59:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, look at http://www.ctan.org/get/macros/latex/contrib/gauss/gauss.sty yourself
17:59:55 <AnMaster> it doesn't look like any of the standard ways
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18:02:15 <fizzie> Well, I did get the documentation made out of it.
18:02:37 <fizzie> With a doc driver file:
18:02:42 <fizzie> fis@eris:~/tmp/gauss$ cat gauss.tex
18:02:42 <fizzie> \documentclass{article}
18:03:17 <fizzie> I can't be sure if that's how the author does it, or if he has a trivial script to collect the % lines and stick them in a article container template like that.
18:04:11 <fizzie> (You can replace "\documentclass{article} \usepackage{doc}" with a "\documentclass{ltxdoc}" in that driver file, but it still needs the \usepackage{gauss} in there.)
18:08:41 <AnMaster> I haven't managed to get doc to work. docstrip yes... but not doc
18:09:14 <AnMaster> you mean like a wrapper file for it
18:09:21 <fizzie> Yes, isn't that what I said?
18:09:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes it was. I just misread you first time
18:12:50 <AnMaster> about creating graphs it seems that with pure latex you are more or less forced to use pstricks
18:13:02 <AnMaster> however xfig seems able to export to this
18:13:20 <AnMaster> good unless you need an exact plot of something like x^2 or whatever
18:13:28 <AnMaster> http://glx.sourceforge.net/ looks promising though
18:13:56 <AnMaster> found in gentoo, but as far as I can find, not in ubuntu
18:22:30 <fizzie> GNUplot creates various latex-related outputs too, and you can get reasonably pleasant output from it, it's not just the most user-friendly thing around.
18:23:27 <fizzie> There's the "latex", "pslatex", "pstricks" and "postscript" drivers, all of which can be used.
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18:25:53 <fizzie> The "eepic" and "pstricks" drivers obviously use those related packages; I'm not quite sure what the plain "latex" does; the "pslatex" driver outputs both a .tex file and a .ps file, draws the graph itself with postscript and does labels and such with LaTeX; and finally the "postscript" driver can of course just generate a regular .eps file for inclusion if you don't care so much.
18:26:29 <fizzie> Of course if you're willing to dabble with xfig, user-friendliness must not be very high on your list of priorities.
18:27:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, does it end up as vector graphics in a resuling pdf?
18:27:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, also I'm likely to use inkscape then export to something xfig can import then convert that
18:27:39 <AnMaster> RATHER than using xfig for all of the process
18:28:04 <fizzie> Eeeh... why don't you just go directly from inkscape to something you can include in the LaTeX document?
18:28:18 <fizzie> .eps for latex+dvips+ps2pdf, .pdf for pdflatex.
18:28:22 <AnMaster> anyway since lyx at least can import svg from inkscape directly, it shouldn't be needed, except possibly the fonts will end up fitting better what with is used in the document
18:28:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, fonts for text in the image
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18:29:10 <fizzie> Right, well. I haven't tried xfig's latex-exportation parts.
18:30:18 <fizzie> Anyway, the gnuplot drivers that are explicitly tex-related (latex, eepic, pstricks, pslatex) do the "can do math mode in labels and the fonts match your document" thing.
18:30:36 <AnMaster> is (mathematically speaking) sin(x) = tan(x)cos(x) ?
18:30:48 <AnMaster> I would guess it isn't because tan(x) isn't defined for some values
18:31:16 <AnMaster> if you simplify it symbolically rather than plotting it on a calculator you will get it defined for those values
18:31:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, sounds good. Now to learn gnuplot :P
18:32:05 <AnMaster> as long as it is vector graphics rather than bitmap it should be fine
18:32:55 <AnMaster> evil idea: Plotting sin(1/x) with vector graphics for values between -1 and 1
18:33:56 <fizzie> Generally any plotting tools you might use still end up sampling the function at regular intervals.
18:35:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, you could plot x^2 as a simple vector graphics curve (whatever that name was, slipped my mind atm).
18:36:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, maybe. Something on B iirc?
18:37:17 <AnMaster> anyway my guess is something like x^2 should be simple to represent as a vector-thingy
18:37:32 <AnMaster> and stuff like 2x+4 would definitely be simple to represent as that
18:37:40 <fizzie> There are all kinds of splines; you can plot x^2 with a simple quadratic spline.
18:39:31 <fizzie> And if you're going to use anything regular (like gnuplot), it will still just sample the function and write a polyline-ish shape with a hundred points in it, instead of trying to find out how to represent the function you're plotting with any fancy "primitives".
18:42:03 <fizzie> Oh, "on B", you mean a Bézier curve?
18:42:57 <fizzie> (Or a Bézier spline, which is just a number of those put together.)
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18:44:55 <fizzie> PostScript primitives are pretty much a line, a cubic Bézier curve and an arc (of a circle).
18:46:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, argh how does one plot in gnuplot
18:47:07 <AnMaster> I can't find any tutorial or such
18:47:19 <fizzie> With the "plot" command.
18:47:36 <fizzie> Results 1 - 10 of about 191,000 for gnuplot tutorial. (0.20 seconds) -- you really should be able to find one.
18:48:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm was looking on official website
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18:55:25 <AnMaster> arvid@dragon ~/tmp $ head -n2 sin1_x.tex
18:55:25 <AnMaster> \setlength{\unitlength}{0.240900pt}
18:55:25 <AnMaster> arvid@dragon ~/tmp $ file sin1_x.tex
18:55:25 <AnMaster> sin1_x.tex: Bio-Rad .PIC Image File 8229 x 20039, 20565 images in file
18:55:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, quite a identification failure eh?
18:59:50 <fizzie> 54 leshort 12345 Bio-Rad .PIC Image File
19:00:31 <fizzie> So it looks at byte 54 for little-endian short field with decimal 12345; that's 0x3039; in little-endian order bytes 39, 30; that's ascii "90".
19:01:03 <fizzie> Probably the "90" from "0.240900", that looks like it'd be around byte 54.
19:03:51 <fizzie> Same for the numbers; 8229 => 0x2025 => 25,20 => "% ", 20039 => 0x4e47 => 47,4e => "GN", 20565 => 0x5055 => 55,50 => "UP".
19:04:54 <AnMaster> % GNUPLOT: LaTeX picture with Postscript
19:05:01 <AnMaster> sin1_x.tex: graphviz graph text
19:05:05 <fizzie> # Bio-Rad .PIC is an image format used by microscope control systems
19:05:05 <fizzie> # and related image processing software used by biologists.
19:05:05 <fizzie> See: let a biologist design a file format, and he'll think a suitable magic is to look for "90" in offset 54.
19:05:41 <fizzie> And, well, this is what my magic file has to say about graphviz:
19:05:43 <fizzie> # graphviz: file(1) magic for http://www.graphviz.org/
19:05:44 <fizzie> # FIXME: These patterns match too generally. For example, the first
19:05:44 <fizzie> # line matches a LaTeX file containing the word "graph" (with a {
19:05:44 <fizzie> # following later) and the second line matches this file.
19:05:44 <fizzie> #0 regex/100 [\r\n\t\ ]*graph[\r\n\t\ ]+.*\\{ graphviz graph text
19:05:44 <fizzie> #!:mime text/vnd.graphviz
19:05:46 <fizzie> #0 regex/100 [\r\n\t\ ]*digraph[\r\n\t\ ]+.*\\{ graphviz digraph text
19:05:48 <fizzie> #!:mime text/vnd.graphviz
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19:06:27 <fizzie> They have, in fact, been commented out in this version.
19:14:36 <AnMaster> what would happen if you mounted / on some system A over nfs into /mnt/A on system B. Then mounted / from B into /mnt/B on A?
19:14:52 <AnMaster> does nfs nest at all? even if not cyclic
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19:21:20 <fizzie> I have a feeling it should (I mean, you're free to NFS-export any path even if multiple local filesystems live there), but I guess it's possible people have built in some sanity-checks to avoid that sort of thing.
19:23:29 <fizzie> I know there's some sort of cycle-avoidance thing in bind mounts: http://pastebin.com/m7a3152f6
19:25:53 <fizzie> Or is that just because I didn't use rbind, actually?
19:26:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, doesn't load here. just hangs
19:26:30 <AnMaster> but then I always had issues with pastebin.com
19:26:45 <AnMaster> .ca works and so do most others
19:27:03 <fizzie> Yes, it took quite a while to load here too; it did work in the end, though.
19:27:27 <fizzie> Doesn't work differently with --rbind though.
19:27:34 <AnMaster> it used to load faster than all other ones
19:29:45 <fizzie> Well, for the reference, here's the same thing with --rbind and two directories: http://pastebin.ca/1599059
19:31:19 <fizzie> Er, with the exception that I can't umount it now; I did umount d2/d1 first, and now d1/d2 says it's "busy".
19:32:50 <fizzie> Ah, I had to umount d1/d2/d1 manually too, even though it didn't end up in mtab. It seems like with --rbind it copies those mounts, doesn't quite "share" them the way I wanted.
19:33:25 <fizzie> Too late now, since I already umounted it.
19:33:48 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure that's what it'd say, though.
19:33:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, nfs should allow proper cyclic file system mounts though
19:34:16 <AnMaster> assuming there is no detection for it
19:34:56 <fizzie> You can get proper infinitely-deep directories with a filesystem image and a hex editor, too.
19:35:08 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ sudo mount --rbind /home/fis/d1 /home/fis/d2/d1
19:35:08 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ sudo mount --rbind /home/fis/d2 /home/fis/d1/d2
19:35:08 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ cat /proc/mounts | grep 'd[12]'
19:35:08 <fizzie> /dev/mapper/vg-home /home/fis/d2/d1 ext3 rw,relatime,errors=continue,data=writeback,usrquota,grpquota 0 0
19:35:08 <fizzie> /dev/mapper/vg-home /home/fis/d1/d2 ext3 rw,relatime,errors=continue,data=writeback,usrquota,grpquota 0 0
19:35:08 <fizzie> /dev/mapper/vg-home /home/fis/d1/d2/d1 ext3 rw,relatime,errors=continue,data=writeback,usrquota,grpquota 0 0
19:36:24 <fizzie> Funny way of showing bind mounts there.
19:36:48 <fizzie> Gaa, I should be writing my article+slides for tomorrow and not mounting directories all around.
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19:49:15 <ehird> Hello from a new, even crappier keyboard with barely any tactile sense!
19:49:21 <ehird> I am having trouble hitting keys consistently. Ugh.
19:50:07 <ehird> 11:54:41 <zzo38> The 7-zip web-site says it supports unpacking RAR archive, but I downloaded the latest version, and RAR is not supported.
19:50:16 <ehird> It supports rar perfectly, and has for years.
19:51:56 <ehird> Argh, this eybord is really annoying.
19:52:50 <ehird> Put it flat, still hard. Wonder if it's easier.
19:52:57 * ais523 watches the flamewar between Stallman and de Icaza
19:53:00 <ehird> Argh, I think the key sizes are different on this keyboard.
19:53:08 <ehird> Also, I really cant put too muh prsesure
19:53:11 <ehird> FUCK HTIS KE YBOARD
19:53:28 <ehird> I want a fucking PS/2 to USB conevrter and plug in my Model M, which I can actually type on
19:53:37 <ehird> This thing is unusable
19:53:53 <ehird> Know what's funny AnMaster?
19:55:03 <ehird> His mega-uber-joystick is Saitek; he talked about it yesterday.
19:55:06 <Asztal> My P and N keys sometimes don't register unless I really push them (also a Saitek)
19:55:28 <ehird> Mine's an uber-cheapo though.
19:55:49 <Asztal> This one's supposed to be good :(
19:56:29 <ehird> I can't even find this one when googling, heh.
19:56:43 <ehird> http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:86UMFLB6jmoJ:www.saitek.com/uk/prod/alumkey.htm+Saitek+slimline&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
19:57:18 <ehird> utterly infuriating
19:57:43 <ehird> I'm not the most error-free typer with my Model M but at least I kno when i've hit a damn key
19:58:15 <Asztal> I had to change my password because it had an n is it, and I never knew if I was typing it right
19:58:34 <AnMaster> <ehird> Know what's funny AnMaster? <ehird> It's Saitek <-- hm?
19:59:01 <Asztal> It only happens about 2% of the time, but it's enough
19:59:28 <AnMaster> ehird, never tried a saitek keyboard. Thought you used an apple one?
19:59:54 <ehird> I did, but Bluetooth doesn't work in Ubuntu, so I switched to my crappy-but-usable keyboard.
20:00:01 <ehird> Then I broke that key
20:00:17 <ehird> And could only find one key that fit in a letter slot
20:00:25 <ehird> So, bought this one.
20:00:52 <ehird> The keys are really shallow, but they also just kind of mmph instead of clicking down, thus making typing impossible.
20:00:59 <ehird> And they require a lot of force to put down fully.
20:01:22 <ehird> So yeah, fuck this shit.
20:05:52 <ehird> I should sue them for making this keyboard. Or at least boycott them.
20:08:27 <ehird> http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1566 ARE YOU SERIOUS RYAN NORTH? THAT HAPPENED IN 2004 AND I READ ABOUT IT ON WIKIPEDIA JUST DAYS AGO >_<
20:12:10 <ehird> 12:41:57 <Deewiant> (This game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUM_0cp5xgo)
20:12:16 <ehird> Isn't that a derivative of ZZT itself?
20:16:40 <ehird> 08:54:56 <AnMaster> ais523, lets see... I can think of think of: consistent formatting, better math support, good support for citations and such through bibtex, much better line breaking algorithm (two justified margins looks horrible in word), easy to automate stuff with it (auto generating tables from source data or such, sure word has VBA but no one can claim that is easy to use..), and several more
20:16:44 <ehird> VBA is easy to use...
20:16:52 <ehird> easier than writing tex macros at least
20:17:06 <ais523> VBA > OpenOffice scripting last time I tried to use it
20:17:17 <ais523> although, when I need to script OpenOffice nowadays, I just manipulate the XML directly, it's easier
20:17:46 <ehird> OpenOffice is pretty bad
20:17:55 <ehird> AbiWord is nice if you like that sort of thing
20:18:22 <ais523> I use OpenOffice a lot for converting .doc and .xls files
20:18:37 <ais523> I find I rarely actually create word-processed documents nowadays, though
20:18:49 <ehird> AbiWord and Gnumeric can do that without turning your computer into a splash-screen displaying space heater
20:19:52 <ehird> 09:23:07 <AnMaster> btw I found out cfunge bzr needed a later cmake than 2.6... 2.6.3 at least. This is actually due to how the ncurses check is now done after input on it from ehird
20:19:52 <ehird> 09:23:46 <AnMaster> (basically it turns out "if" in cmake before 2.6.3 didn't support parentheses...)
20:19:57 <ehird> you don't need the parens
20:20:03 <ehird> they were just while i was testing
20:25:15 * ehird searches for a Real Fucking Keyboard
20:31:41 <ehird> Okay, Filco FKBN104M/EB or Scorpius M10
20:32:03 <ehird> First is tactlile+non-clicky, second is tactile+clicky but the sound doesn't seem as annoying as most.
20:32:40 <ehird> Argh, the Filco has a fucking glossy Vista logo key.
20:33:43 <ehird> And the Scorpius M10 doesn't.
20:34:30 <ais523> does it hav a super key at all?
20:34:48 <ehird> It has two Windows keys, but no right-click key, I think.
20:35:42 <ehird> Apparently more quieter than the Das Keyboard which is good. Small Windows key, don't care... black matted finish, but you can't get, alas, get smooth mechanical keyboards... $60 shipped to the US... Hmm... A few unfortunate disadvantages.
20:35:49 <ehird> http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:5364
20:35:56 <ehird> See "The Bad"... mmph.
20:36:53 <ehird> I don't mind the fewer and smaller rubber pads, nor the lack of gold plating on the USB connector, nor the lack of cable grommet, nor the bigger footprint, nor the imperfections in the plastic casing.
20:37:21 <ehird> And I don't think I mind the print screen/scroll lock/pause/break keys standing taller than the F keys... but
20:37:37 <ehird> # Esc, F2, F5, F6, and F7 keys sit slightly lower on chassis than the other F keys
20:37:37 <ehird> # tilde, 1 and 3 keys sit slightly lower than other keys in same row# Esc, F2, F5, F6, and F7 keys sit slightly lower on chassis than the other F keys
20:37:37 <ehird> # tilde, 1 and 3 keys sit slightly lower than other keys in same row# Esc, F2, F5, F6, and F7 keys sit slightly lower on chassis than the other F keys
20:37:37 <ehird> # tilde, 1 and 3 keys sit slightly lower than other keys in same row
20:37:40 <ehird> # no recessed stepping for the Caps Lock key, or the Num Lock key
20:37:46 <ehird> # some keys feel and sound slightly different than others
20:37:46 <ehird> # doesn't feel quite as sturdy as the M1 and Das, and has more flex
20:38:11 <ehird> Maybe I should just get a Das Keyboard and deal with the noise.
20:40:11 <ehird> Heh, the M10 weighs as much as a MacBook Air
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20:42:23 <ehird> ais523: It does have a right-click key, I think.
20:42:41 <Deewiant> ehird: Yes, it's a ZZT derivative, I just didn't know about that until yesterday.
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20:51:01 <ehird> I wish you could buy the Japan-only Happy Hacking keyboards with more keys.
20:51:52 <ehird> Hmm, wait, just a different layout.
20:52:10 <ehird> The Happy Hacking keyboard uses the Caps Lock location for Control, has a tiny Alt key, and a big Windows key.
20:52:17 <ehird> And that's just reeeeeeeetaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrdeeeeeeeeeeeed.
20:57:17 <Deewiant> The defaults don't matter, you can change them
20:57:42 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes they do because there is no physical control key.
20:58:15 <ehird> I could use the tiny alt key as control and the big windows key as alt, but that'd fucking suck because the control key would be in the uncomfortable Windows key position, and tiny.
20:58:30 <ehird> I never called it a default; you did
20:58:44 <ehird> <ehird> The Happy Hacking keyboard uses the Caps Lock location for Control, has a tiny Alt key, and a big Windows key.
20:58:44 <ehird> <ehird> And that's just reeeeeeeetaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrdeeeeeeeeeeeed.
20:58:44 <ehird> <Deewiant> The defaults don't matter, you can change them
20:59:01 <Deewiant> What I was trying to say was: "what the keys do by default doesn't matter"
20:59:30 <ehird> Yes, but you mistakenly assumed that the reason I rejected it was because of that. :P
20:59:38 <Deewiant> If you have an issue with the keys themselves as opposed to what they do, that's different
20:59:47 <ehird> I meant that, in lieu of having an actual control key, it defaults to using the Caps Lock position for it.
20:59:53 <ehird> A default is part of that complaint, but not the reason for it.
21:00:50 <Deewiant> Even that doesn't clearly say to me that there's no key where the control key typically is :-P (I guess the Windows key is there, by your description?)
21:01:59 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Happy_Hacking_Keyboard_Professional_2.jpg
21:02:19 <ehird> Default mapping is the small leftmost/rightmost keys are alt, and the keys next to the space bar are Windows.
21:02:30 <ehird> Fucking bulllllllllshit.
21:02:42 <Deewiant> That's indeed somewhat retarded :-P
21:02:52 <ehird> IIRC some of the previous models, still, IIRC, sold in Japan, have, you know, more keys.
21:06:08 <ehird> Deewiant: From their site: http://www.pfusystems.com/hhkeyboard/images/lite2_us_layout.gif
21:06:17 <ehird> DID IT OCCUR TO ANYONE TO MAKE THEM BIGGER AND FLUSH WITH THE SHIFT KEYS
21:06:31 <ehird> You know, since you're adding another useless key, Fn.
21:08:11 <ehird> Whee, the Das Keyboard costs 99 eur in, uh, Europe.
21:08:57 <ehird> OHH ENJOYING THAT KEYBOARD ARE YOU, 87 EUR IN THE US, WITH FREE SHIPPING
21:09:02 <ehird> well how about we take our cocks
21:09:13 <ehird> and slap you with them
21:09:19 <ehird> after all this is Europe
21:09:22 <ehird> where we do such things
21:11:56 <ehird> Can anyone get past the road in http://tane.us/?
21:12:02 <ehird> I wonder if there's even anything more.
21:18:47 <Deewiant> YOU FINISHED TANE! YOU ARE GREAT!
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21:21:20 <ehird> I'm going to assume you made that up and this continually serves up new fun every click forever
21:21:43 <ehird> Heh, it changes domain
21:21:59 <ehird> "Click here to download plugin"
21:22:12 <ehird> I'm sure it's delightful
21:22:33 <ehird> ...this one again? (oldtane)
21:22:44 <ehird> oh, it only takes one click now
21:25:42 <ehird> http://www.chickensnack.com/flash/marioq.html
21:28:45 <ehird> http://www.chickensnack.com/flash/enzyte.html
21:30:31 <ehird> http://www.chickensnack.com/flash/fun.html
21:47:28 <ehird> http://www.evoluent.com/kb1.html Did it occur to them that they could just remove the number pad
21:49:04 <ehird> You mean "Patented and additional patents pending".
21:49:14 <ehird> Also, ugh, mushing the arrow keys with those other ones.
21:49:54 <ehird> Just move the printscrn-sysrq/scroll-lock/pause-break/insert/home/pgup/delete/end/pgdwn/arrow keys to the left and drop the number pad!
21:49:55 <Deewiant> And all-important keys like "My Comp" and "Media Player"
21:50:06 <ehird> I open my media player EVERY FEW SECONDS
21:50:20 <ehird> And then put my computer to sleep and wake it up
21:50:47 <ehird> Then I open my email, look at it, switch to my web browser, go backwards and forth a few times, open my Computer, and then SHUT THE COMPUTER OFF.
21:50:54 <ehird> Oh god, they have a Del key right to the left of the space bar.
21:51:29 <oklopol> going back and forth is something i might actually want buttons for, except backspace already does the more useful of those two
21:51:37 <ehird> oklopol: alt-right
21:52:07 <ehird> I gave up my backspace habit and now use alt-left/right.
21:52:07 <oklopol> you really think i have the time
21:52:12 <ehird> oklopol: but you have the time for pointing and clicking?
21:52:43 <oklopol> well it's faster than pointing and clicking, but it isn't as fast as single key would be
21:52:52 <ehird> yes but it's an improvement
21:54:17 <oklopol> i think i'm going to go sort a deck of cards using a binary heap now
21:54:59 <ehird> oklopol: try gnome sort!
21:55:13 <ehird> the former is probably a better idea, in case the latter doesn't terminate
21:55:16 <ehird> THUS EVENTUALLY TERMINATING...
21:56:08 <oklopol> i don't actually follow algorithms strictly enough for gnome sort and insertion sort to have a crucial diff
21:56:38 <ehird> oklopol: do bucket sort with actual buckets
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21:57:31 <ehird> oklopol: how about pigeonhole sort with actual pigeons
21:57:37 <ehird> actual pigeonholes
21:57:41 <ehird> but sure, sort pigeons into them if you want
21:58:03 <ehird> ...timsort with an actual tim peters? :P
21:58:28 <ehird> burstsort... then ACTUALLY BURST
21:58:34 <oklopol> you should do some sort of standup
21:58:38 <ehird> oklopol: also is stupi the same thing as stupid?
21:58:43 <ehird> BECAUSE IF SO THAT IS *FUNNY*
21:58:53 <ehird> oklopol: but, I might
21:59:06 <oklopol> it was like a cool contra(di)ction
21:59:10 <ehird> i'll be here all year
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22:03:41 <ehird> HAHAAHQQHQHQA THE TOTAL DELETION OF YOUR FACE
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22:34:03 <ais523> <datapharmer> Care to try a self-eating watermelon?
22:36:10 <ais523> someone replying to a comment wondering about why Slashdot were reporting on a Slashdot post
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22:37:12 <ais523> ugh, why does control-refresh not open the current page in another tab in Firefox?
22:37:51 <ais523> (clearly, I take interface consistency very seriously...)
22:38:01 <ehird> I'm not sure that's inconsistent
22:38:20 <Rugxulo> I was running DOSEMU under x86-64 yesterday 8-)
22:38:30 <ehird> Does that give you 64-bit DOS?
22:38:45 <Rugxulo> just normal DOS (with 16-bit emulated and 32-bit DPMI stuff runs as native)
22:38:55 <ehird> I wonder if you could make 64-bit DOS run the usual programs...
22:39:02 <ehird> just define near = far and you're some part of the way
22:39:17 <Rugxulo> no, 64-bit has no V86 mode, hence you can't run 16-bit stuff at all unless emulated
22:39:35 <ais523> ehird: refresh opens the current page; holding down control causes pages that would open to open in a new tab instead
22:39:40 <ehird> Make the 16-bit stuff works.
22:39:43 <Rugxulo> or unless AMD or Intel add V86 to 64-bit
22:39:46 <ais523> therefore, my reasoning was that control-refresh should open the current page in a new tab
22:40:02 <ehird> ais523: Yes, but Ctrl only applies to opening new links by clicking.
22:40:08 <Rugxulo> that's what DOSEMU does, it translates 16-bit to 64-bit
22:40:15 <ais523> and control applies to more or less everything in the interface
22:40:18 <ais523> the menus, for instance
22:40:27 <ehird> For instance, ctrl-enter adds www. and .com to the start and end in the location field
22:40:29 <ais523> ehird: I commonly refresh pages by following self-links
22:40:40 <ehird> ais523: that's your problem; I don't think this is an inconsistency
22:41:02 <ehird> Rugxulo: yes, but it doesn't give them 64-bit pointers, for instance
22:41:12 <Rugxulo> no, DOS progs can't run in 64-bit
22:41:29 <Rugxulo> you'd have to (in theory) have a 64-bit DOS itself or maybe an extender
22:41:55 <ehird> That's what I'm saying
22:42:06 <ehird> And the question is, would most programs work with it?
22:42:22 <ehird> For instance, how many of them pack structures and depend on their sizes?
22:42:44 <Rugxulo> work without recompilation? doubt it
22:43:02 <ais523> it would be more likely to work without than with IMO
22:43:20 <ehird> The question is whether it can be good enough
22:43:29 <ehird> For, you know, critical high-memory DOS usage
22:44:11 <ais523> ehird: do you happen to know what licence Colloquy is under?
22:44:15 <ais523> I can't find it anywhere on their website
22:44:22 <ais523> they claim to be open source, and there's source
22:44:29 <ais523> but no licence statement on the website, no COPYING in the source
22:45:47 <ais523> the issue of GPL iPhone apps came up on the Enigma mailing list
22:45:58 <ais523> someone gave Colloquy as an example of an open-source iPhone app
22:46:07 <ehird> the mobile app != the desktop app, btw
22:46:09 <ais523> and I'm utterly confused at my inability to determine what licence
22:46:17 <ais523> I can't find the licence for either, though
22:46:19 <ehird> and the mobile app isn't open source afaik
22:46:39 <ais523> and there's a link to the source
22:46:52 <ais523> "Open minded and Open source, like it should be."
22:47:19 <ehird> http://colloquy.info/project/wiki/Development%20Guide
22:47:53 <ehird> wiki -> development guide
22:47:56 <ehird> two clicks from source
22:48:00 <ehird> admittedly it should be included
22:48:06 <ais523> I didn't think of checking the wiki
22:48:23 <ais523> also, I think it violates GPL2 to not state the licence in the source
22:48:34 <ais523> well, I was staring at GPL2 for about half an hour, so I'm pretty sure
22:48:37 <ehird> the actual source files
22:48:47 <ehird> many GPL projects don't do that
22:48:58 <ehird> then I agree it's possible
22:49:07 <ais523> it doesn't have to be in the file itself, but you need the COPYING in the distribution, or at least a statement of licence somewhere
22:49:17 <ais523> whereas what they're publishing as "the source" doesn't mention it anywhere obvious
22:49:18 <pikhq> The GPL requires that the license be clearly indicated.
22:49:35 <pikhq> It suggests that you put a notice in the source code.
22:49:35 <ais523> maybe we could edit the wiki to make it BSD?
22:49:41 <ehird> ais523: no, that doesn't work
22:49:48 <ehird> any more as committing a license file saying it's BSD doesn't
22:50:03 <ais523> if it's the only place it's mentioned, it would certainly confuse people, though
22:52:02 <ais523> anyway, my current problem with Enigma is trying to change the title "Once, No More No Less" to be the width of an s less wide
22:53:00 <ais523> because it doesn't currently quite fit on the level summary screen
22:53:02 <ehird> ais523: make it cutesy - either "Once, NoMore NoLess" or "OnceNoMoreNoLess"
22:53:11 <ais523> it's probably best to rephrase
22:53:24 <ehird> ais523: how about "Once"
22:54:04 <ehird> ais523: ==1, !<1, !>1
22:56:37 <ehird> Wince Na-Mar Narless
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23:24:11 <ehird> how is your name pronounced oerjan
23:25:24 <ehird> *in fact add that z back
23:25:25 * oerjan looks up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_phonology
23:26:57 <oerjan> ø, j, n are the correct ipa in fact
23:27:05 <ehird> i don't know ipa :P
23:27:39 <oerjan> r is some variant with rounded upper part
23:27:57 <oerjan> a without the upper tail or whatever it's called
23:28:03 <ehird> omg my | key moved aaaaaaaaaaa
23:28:20 <oerjan> anyway let me look up the names
23:28:32 <oerjan> ø: close-mid front rounded
23:28:43 <ehird> i don't know this stuff :(
23:29:49 <oerjan> r: dental/alveolar flap
23:30:04 <oerjan> (rolled, but just once)
23:30:28 <oerjan> j: palatal approximant. like english y.
23:31:04 <oerjan> a: open back unrounded. something like a in father, but shorter
23:31:56 <oerjan> n: dental/alveolar nasal. pretty much like in english.
23:32:24 <oerjan> the whole word has the second pitch accent
23:33:45 <ehird> i don't know what that is :D
23:33:51 <oerjan> the ø is hard to explain in english
23:33:53 <Asztal> The wikipedia article on pitch accent is all centred for some reason.
23:34:01 <oerjan> maybe closest to u in "fur"
23:34:05 <Asztal> ø is like ö, apparently.
23:34:43 <ehird> I don't know how to roll rs, and I don't know what the second pitch accent is.
23:34:44 <oerjan> i'm not sure you should double that a
23:34:58 <oerjan> it's a fairly short vowel
23:35:04 <ehird> I was expressing the father-ness.
23:35:17 <ehird> So, the whole thing is entirely ... soft until the n?
23:35:36 <ehird> (Vowels are soft, r is soft, things like k aren't, n isn't at the end of a word.)
23:36:00 <oerjan> well i don't know about that
23:36:25 <oerjan> a rolled r is harder than an english one, i'd say, unless hard is some technical term
23:36:57 <oerjan> Asztal: not centered for me
23:37:41 <ehird> oerjan: here's an attempt:
23:37:45 <Asztal> oerjan: OK, it's not for me either now... maybe it was just one of the many strange consequences of incremental reflow
23:37:53 <ehird> http://filebin.ca/hzfbcy/oerjan.wav
23:38:01 <oerjan> ehird: just forget the pitch accent, it varies by dialect anyhow
23:38:17 <ehird> i expected to do badly
23:38:44 <oerjan> my ouch was because i have to find out how to listen to it, not because it's bad (i don't know yet :D)
23:38:53 <ehird> it's just a wav :P
23:39:58 <oerjan> the thing is, every time i try to play something which is not in flash, i get this message to set up windows media player
23:40:30 <oerjan> and every time i chicken out of the menu which seems to essentially ask how much to behave like spyware
23:41:20 <ehird> http://mpc-hc.sourceforge.net/ use it (ignore the shoddy website, it's just an actually-maintained fork of Media Player Classic)
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23:41:40 <ehird> features include not being shit
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23:52:18 * oerjan finally manages to play the file
23:52:55 <oerjan> ok, the r definitely needs work ;D
23:53:11 <oerjan> the rest is surprisingly close