00:01:07 <bsmntbombdood_> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824001323R
00:01:52 <ehird_> open box = returned = shit's probably fucked
00:03:51 <ehird_> (for the record, cheapest 24" ips = http://www.amazon.com/LP2475W-24in-LCD-Monitor-1920X1200/dp/B001FS1LLI/)
00:05:17 <ehird_> an abacus is way cheaper than a computer
00:05:20 <ehird_> bit crappy for computing, though.
00:09:23 <bsmntbombdood_> http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Touch-T260-25-5-inch-Monitor/dp/B0019ASAY8/ref=sr_1_27?ie=UTF8&s=pc&qid=1254697590&sr=1-27
00:10:19 <ehird_> doesn't even mention the resolution, lol
00:10:47 <ehird_> 24" 1920x1200 is only 94ppi already
00:11:10 <ehird_> even old, really crappy monitors are 84 ppi
00:11:26 <ehird_> bsmntbombdood_: so you'll see the pixel grid all the time and it looks like shit, I know because I have one lying around
00:11:41 <ehird_> also, everything looks bigger which makes it feel like you're using 800x600
00:13:03 <ehird_> also, pretty sure their marketing blurb about light translates to "lol glossy shit".
00:13:55 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:17:23 -!- coppro has joined.
00:17:49 <ehird_> bsmntbombdood_: so if your monitor is a paragon of excellence why are you buyng a new one :P
00:18:33 <coppro> Gregor: the SGU theme music reminds me of your Op. 11 :D
00:19:30 <ehird_> Shitting Gonad Urethras isn't something you should be proud of watching, coppro.
01:09:42 <augur> wait wait coppro what
01:14:20 <augur> i think im into copprophilia
01:14:42 <augur> im just talkin bout coppro!
01:14:50 <ehird_> we don't need to know about your love of copp- dammit
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01:41:53 <coppro> augur: yes, the SGU theme :)
01:42:06 <augur> coppro: you has link to gregor's op 11?
01:42:42 <coppro> http://codu.org/music/GRegor-op11.ogg
01:43:25 <coppro> specifically the scales in the middle parts
01:44:26 <augur> and the SGU theme?
01:45:33 <coppro> Don't know; I heard it listening to SGU
01:46:25 <Sgeo> Isn't SGA still going on?
01:46:45 <Sgeo> Erm, Stargate Atlantis
01:46:53 <Sgeo> What's the correct way to abbreviate that?
01:47:49 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:48:09 <ehird_> That ended in January, says my magic Wikipedophile powers.
01:48:24 -!- coppro has joined.
01:49:20 <Asztal> There's a film planned, though, straight to DVD like the ark of truth and continuum.
01:50:07 * Sgeo must find a way to watch The IT Crowd season 3
01:51:02 <Sgeo> Preferably without torrents
01:51:17 <ehird_> arbitraryrequirementsatisfactionzone.ridiculous
01:51:52 <augur> surfthechannel.com
01:53:14 <ehird_> sweet, lower quality, buffering and in many cases just as illegal
01:53:22 <ehird_> what more could you *possibly* want
01:54:17 <Sgeo> It doesn't "feel" as illegal
01:54:31 <ehird_> sweet, tell that to the judge
01:55:04 -!- boily has quit ("leaving").
01:55:08 <ehird_> "I know she's 13, but officer, it didn't FEEL illegal!"
01:56:52 <augur> it'd feel very illegal
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01:58:11 <Gregor> augur: Are you saying I prerippedoff SGU? :P
01:58:31 <augur> gregor: are you trying to talk to coppro?
01:59:02 <augur> gregor, did you write op 11 yourself, or is this an algo?
01:59:05 <coppro> Gregor: Not that close together; just similar
01:59:28 <Gregor> augur: You're either calling me a friggin' amazing programmer, or a terrible composer.
02:00:06 <Gregor> The autocomposed music all has titles. Furthermore, the titles are all of the form <adverb> <adjective> <style of music>
02:00:22 <augur> its not bad you know
02:01:17 -!- User114 has joined.
02:01:57 <Gregor> Your name is original and unique.
02:01:59 <ehird_> what happened to the other 79
02:02:05 -!- User114 has quit (Client Quit).
02:02:15 -!- LadyT has joined.
02:02:52 <Gregor> More original and unique.
02:04:09 <ehird_> LadyT: wherefrom comesforth you
02:04:46 <Gregor> I'm not convinced that "wherefrom" or "comesforth" are real (even antiquated) words :P
02:05:04 <augur> you should keep working on Op 11
02:05:08 <augur> it has great potential
02:05:14 <Gregor> I'm working on a string quartet of it.
02:05:14 <LadyT> yah, a bit theatrical
02:05:34 <ehird_> Gregor: see, if they're here for the esoterick magick, they'll take it as normal
02:05:38 <ehird_> if not, they'll point it out
02:05:42 <ehird_> it's my secret super-efficient detection system
02:05:47 <Gregor> ehird_: Well aren't ye clevar.
02:05:48 <ehird_> and you just ruined it :|
02:05:57 <Gregor> ehird_: It's what I do.
02:06:08 <oerjan> reminds me of Jim in Darths & Droids
02:06:12 <augur> i want to learn piano so i can play art of the fugue
02:06:24 <augur> apparently people to play it really well
02:06:28 <Gregor> augur: Then learn to play the harpsichord :P
02:06:30 <augur> you have to be capable of separating out the voices
02:06:43 <augur> so that you can actually modify each voice independent
02:09:07 -!- LadyT261 has joined.
02:09:15 <ehird_> ok this is just ridiculous
02:09:22 <ehird_> LadyT261: quick! what is the purpose of this channel?
02:09:24 <Gregor> LadyT seems to be cloning.
02:10:47 <LadyT261> I got punted ... now have this 261 added to my nickname
02:11:07 <oerjan> but your other nick is still here...
02:11:21 <LadyT261> very new to IRC ... i don't understand why
02:11:45 <ehird_> LadyT261: quick! what is the purpose of this channel? :|
02:11:53 <oerjan> bad connections happen
02:12:06 <oerjan> ehird_ is so suspicious
02:12:48 <Gregor> I'm too lazy to figure out why HackEgo keeps d/cing.
02:13:05 <ehird_> LadyT261: let me simplify. esoterica or esolangs
02:13:10 <LadyT261> ehird seems to be on the list twice as well, once with an underscore and the other not
02:13:17 <ehird_> yes, the other one is my ghost.
02:13:22 -!- ehird has quit (Nick collision from services.).
02:13:24 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird.
02:13:45 -!- ehird_ has joined.
02:13:54 <LadyT261> must be esoterica cause i don't know what esolangs w
02:14:11 <ehird> LadyT261: programming. did you flinch or smile at that previous sentence
02:14:15 <ehird> (i cannot make this any simpler)
02:15:16 <Gregor> augur: Incidentally, the string quartet version of this could be subtitled "Making cellists everywhere hate Gregor"
02:15:46 <ehird> LadyT261: ok, if you're here for esoteric programming languages you're in the right place, if not, wrong place
02:15:54 <Gregor> All the arpeggios in the left hand go to the cello (more-or-less unavoidable)
02:15:59 <LadyT261> ehird: shall I pay the $200 so that I may pass GO
02:16:23 <ehird> well i'm pretty sure you have a monopoly on incomprehension right now indeed
02:16:28 <oerjan> now now, let's not monopolize this situation
02:16:38 <ehird> i did it better :|
02:16:49 <ehird> LadyT261: #esoteric = programming languagse
02:16:55 <ehird> LadyT261 = in #esoteric
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02:19:08 <oerjan> ok _now_ this gets ridiculous :D
02:19:17 <ehird> LadyT261466: this channel has still not strayed from the topic of programming languages with your reconnection :P
02:19:21 <Sgeo> ehird, it occurs to me that without BitTorrent, I'm not actually providing the copyrighted materials myself
02:19:38 <ehird> downloading is equally illegal.
02:19:40 <oerjan> ehird: well it wasn't really _on_ it to begin with you know
02:20:36 * ehird stabs LadyT261466 will a rusty fork
02:20:49 <ehird> i am left with no alternatives
02:21:04 <ehird> you just don't understand economics, Gregor
02:21:27 <oerjan> LadyT261466: if your nick goes on adding digits like this, you'll go over the length limit
02:21:44 <ehird> worst dinosaur comics spinoff ever
02:22:39 <oerjan> LadyT261466: he's probably just tired, it's 2 AM where he is...
02:22:45 <ehird> i'm actually perfectly relaxed :P
02:23:27 <oerjan> ehird: you still need some meds, any doctor would bet
02:23:42 <LadyT261466> thx oerjan - i am hanging around cause i use to be in the industry a very long time ago
02:24:27 <ehird> well that is probably of the esoteric variety albeit likely unintentionally...
02:24:47 <augur> is there a pattern
02:24:51 <augur> to the lady's numbers
02:25:02 <ehird> it's the fibonocci sequence
02:25:02 <LadyT261466> so was interested is seeing what the new stuff is about
02:25:17 <ehird> well, our stuff is new, but it isn't exactly designed to be sane...
02:25:22 <oerjan> augur: i think we would have to ask a numerologist, and that would be the wrong kind of esoteric
02:25:30 <ehird> ...esoteric programming language = language deliberately designed to be awkward and of no practical use
02:25:42 <augur> ehird, i disagree with that definition
02:25:48 <augur> that is more like a tarpit than anything
02:26:05 <ehird> show me an esolang designed to be easy to use and of practical use
02:26:10 <ehird> and i'll show you something that isn't an seolang
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02:26:37 <augur> i was gonna say haskell but then i realized its not easy to use or of practical use e.e
02:26:37 <oerjan> augur: no a tarpit must be minimalistic too
02:26:47 <ehird> augur: intel uses it, QED
02:26:56 <ehird> anyway haskell isn't an esolang
02:27:00 <augur> doesnt mean its easy to use or practical!
02:27:20 <augur> i enjoy the fact that the lambda calculus cannot be said to have types. :T
02:27:21 <ehird> it's obviously practical because it's used by various companies for practical purposes, and has been shown to excel at such applications
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02:38:49 <Gregor> Wow, timidity's freepats have the QUIETEST friggin' violins ever.
02:39:02 <Gregor> I literally cannot hear them at all.
02:39:11 <pikhq> An esoteric programming language is a language deliberately designed to be bizarre, with complete disregard for ease of use or practicality.
02:39:14 <Gregor> (Unless they're playing alone)
02:40:16 <ehird> pikhq: basically what i said :P
02:41:29 <pikhq> ehird: Pretty much.
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03:24:34 <Ilari> You have seen the "E-Mail address validator regexp"? Well, something much worse: Luhn algorithm as regexp. Only ~171TB (if I got the FA-to-regexp conversion right). :->
03:25:20 <ehird> the email validator is wrong, only handles 6 depths of nested comnents
03:25:32 <ehird> Ilari: where did you get 171T(i)B of storage?
03:26:19 <Ilari> Calculated its length using dynamic programming techniques (I also wrote program that starts spewing that regexp to stdout).
03:26:39 <ehird> Write a program that executes it using an incremental regexp engine of some sort.
03:26:47 <ehird> Ask Cray for a CPU fast enough :-)
03:28:32 <Ilari> This computer can spew that regexp out only at about half a meg per second... :-/
03:29:25 <ehird> What language? I'm happy to run it on this 2.16GHz Core 2 Duo... not exactly a monster machine, but presumably rather faster.
03:29:48 <ehird> Ilari: With that machine-code-JIT I hope...
03:30:17 <ehird> Ilari: Why on earth?
03:30:31 <ehird> Isn't it just a matter of running luajit instead of lua?
03:30:48 <Ilari> Don't have that installed...
03:31:07 <ehird> It's slightly below competitive with C performance, so that should help immensely.
03:31:13 <ehird> Well, in benchmarks.
03:31:19 <ehird> It's more like 4x faster than Lua in practice, iirc.
03:31:48 <ehird> But that's in boring "typical" code. Something number-crunching, much more x, I bet.
03:32:13 <Ilari> The program first computes recursive table representation of the regexp (takes ~0.02s) and then starts to recursively walking that table and spewing stuff out.
03:32:56 <ehird> If you want I'll install luajit and give it a go. Not sure how to measure how fast it's going, though.
03:35:26 <Ilari> Speeds measured by piping output to dd of=/dev/null and then SIGUSR1 after a while.
03:35:41 <ehird> Well that's simple enough.
03:36:58 <oerjan> hm an FSA for that would only have 20 states, right?
03:37:14 <oerjan> weird that it would blow up so much...
03:37:25 <Ilari> Epsilon-NFA with 21 states was used as starting point.
03:37:29 <ehird> Ilari: show the code?
03:38:06 <Ilari> Nondeterministic Finite Automata.
03:38:19 <oerjan> why in the world would it be nondeterministic
03:39:11 <ehird> that's what NFAs are
03:39:38 <oerjan> no i mean, i don't see why that algorithm would give a nondeterministic automaton
03:40:03 <oerjan> at least if you parse from the right
03:40:39 <oerjan> you just need to track the sum mod 10 and position even-/oddness afaict
03:41:00 <Ilari> http://pastebin.ca/1593593
03:42:11 <ehird> gratuitous semicolon syndrome
03:43:22 <ehird> ljit_dasm.c:35:2: error: #error "No support for this architecture (yet)"
03:43:40 <oerjan> Ilari: ok, that looks deterministic to me
03:44:38 <Ilari> oerjan: It isn't. State 1 can transition without input to either 2 or 12...
03:45:15 <oerjan> ah. i think that's only because you parse from the left...
03:45:22 <ehird> /usr/include/gnu/stubs.h:7:27: error: gnu/stubs-32.h: No such file or directory
03:45:28 <oerjan> you don't know whether the position is odd or even to start with
03:45:37 <ehird> i'm not making a fucking 32 bit chroot
03:45:42 <ehird> sry Ilari, 's gonna have to be regular lua
03:45:48 <oerjan> if you do it from the right, that will be unnecessary
03:46:47 <ehird> ehird@ehird-desktop:~/NIH$ lua luhn.lua | dd of=/dev/null
03:46:47 <ehird> ^C38624+0 records in
03:46:47 <ehird> 38624+0 records out
03:46:47 <ehird> 19775488 bytes (20 MB) copied, 16.7148 s, 1.2 MB/s
03:46:47 <ehird> lua: (error with no message)
03:47:07 <ehird> that's with X11 running GNOME, a Gecko-based web browser, gnome-terminal, xchat-gnome and tons of shit that I have no idea in the backgroun
03:47:40 <ehird> so not really much better than yours, but i imagine your setup is rather more minimal
03:48:41 <ehird> Ilari: any way to make it dual-core?
03:53:45 <Ilari> The algorithm is just plain serial.
03:53:48 <ehird> Ilari: I think I'll rewrite your program in C
03:53:51 <ehird> should be simple enough
03:55:41 <ehird> Ilari: why did you use strings in translen btw?
03:56:11 <Ilari> ehird: It was modified from program that computed lengths. So translen name remained.
03:56:21 <ehird> i meant the elements
03:57:09 <Ilari> Its regex-automata. The FA-to-regex algo starts by reinterpreting the FA as regex-automata.
03:57:27 <ehird> right, i just don't see why "1" instead of 1
03:57:32 <ehird> i guess more convenient to print in lua
03:58:20 <Ilari> Those are among the leaf nodes of expression tree it constructs.
03:58:38 <Ilari> Or more like trie...
03:59:12 * ehird decides to rewrite the algo verbatim due to not bothering to understand it
03:59:26 <ehird> i take it the parallel table is used as a 2d array?
04:00:59 <ehird> right, fixed length of bools
04:05:26 <ehird> hmm lua has 1-based indices doesn't it, this will truly be fun to translate
04:08:21 <ehird> Ilari: with s there, won't this thing eventually run out of memory?
04:08:30 <ehird> due to the ever bigger and bigger strings kept in memory
04:09:25 <Sgeo> Apparently, not only is DS broken on future Windows versions, it will also be broken in future Ubuntu versions
04:09:51 <Sgeo> No more lib-gtk-1.2
04:10:12 <Sgeo> Discussion ongoing in Sine
04:10:51 <ehird> just build gtk 1.2
04:10:57 <ehird> i bet you could even make a ppa
04:10:59 <Sgeo> coppro, Docking Station
04:11:22 <Sgeo> http://creatures.wikia.com/wiki/Docking_Station
04:14:32 <ehird> hmm, let's see... I believe you can calculate the length of s before making it
04:14:44 <ehird> by doing the logical calculations first... oh, I had better store the length of strings with them in trans
04:17:27 <Ilari> Aaargh... The algo has mistake in it. It prints S12, but it should print S12(S22)*
04:17:45 <ehird> i've mostly done the tables, hope it isn't those that change :P
04:18:16 <Ilari> Well, that algo computes both S12 and S22
04:19:44 <Ilari> Actually, that still wouldn't be correct if there was non-null S11 or S21, but both of those are null.
04:21:16 <Ilari> Nifty: If one inverses the i to count down from 21 to 3 (instead of going up from 3 to 21), the regex size drops to ~16.6MB :-/
04:21:39 <ehird> That's like the paper spawning Graham's Number; upper bound G64, lower bound 6.
04:21:45 <ehird> Turns out closer to 6.
04:21:58 <ehird> Sheesh, and I was all translating.
04:22:14 <Ilari> It should be easy change (at least it is in original code).
04:22:27 <ehird> Yeah, but if it's only 16 meg... :-)
04:22:33 <ehird> I thought being that big was fishy.
04:22:52 <Ilari> There may be even better orders resulting even smaller regexps.
04:23:20 <ehird> Clearly it needs bruteforcing.
04:24:33 <Ilari> More like Genetic Algorithm. 121 645 100 408 832 000 choices for order...
04:24:54 <coppro> ehird: not hard to be closer to 6 than to G64
04:25:15 <coppro> almost half of all numbers between the two managed it!
04:25:15 <Ilari> Actually, I think the optimal order might indeed be the reverse oder.
04:25:53 <ehird> The lower bound was later improved by Exoo[2003], who showed the solution to be at least 11, and provided experimental evidence suggesting that it is at least 12. Thus, the best known bounding estimate for the solution N* is 11 ≤ N* ≤ G, where G is Graham's number.
04:27:07 <coppro> so in other words, statistically, it's more likely closer to G than to 6
04:29:01 <ehird> yes, but I read that the current guess is that it's low
04:29:21 <ehird> i may be misremembering
04:29:59 <Ilari> Matching the string right-to-left produces regex about half the size of left-to-right regex (~171MB with increasing i, ~8.3MB with decreasing i).
04:30:58 <ehird> he said that before
04:31:03 <ehird> except 11 instead of 8 iirc
04:31:09 <ehird> Ilari: filebin.ca the 8 meg regexp?
04:31:57 <Sgeo> Scanning has encountered a problem from which it cannot recover. Here are the problem details: Error getting scan progress.
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04:34:51 -!- oklopol has joined.
04:44:12 <ehird> oklopol i defined a manifold of oklopol
04:47:06 <oerjan> is it a smooth manifold
04:47:31 <ehird> it has no properties
04:47:53 <ehird> even the property of having no property
04:48:46 <oerjan> the very opposite of a complex, analytical manifold
04:48:46 <ehird> it is SO fucking mathematical
04:48:51 <ehird> ah but it is those
04:48:54 <ehird> and it isn't those
04:50:58 <ehird> wittgenstein was totally metal.
04:51:04 <ehird> he was not human, he was metal
04:51:14 <ehird> carbon based lifeform, metal, what is the difference really.
04:51:29 <oerjan> nietzsche, on the other hand, was dynamite
04:52:32 <ehird> einstein was in fact made out of hitlerium, an element censored from the periodic table; it is only present in the continuous table
04:52:53 <ehird> although some recommend the periodic chair as a well-structured alternative to both
04:52:54 <oerjan> apparently carbon is considered a metal in cosmology
04:53:26 <ehird> Galois was actually a buckminsterfullerene.
04:55:52 <ehird> euler had a condition where he could only remember vague details about people and not to any great extent, no matter what the person. this lead to the common joke of the time, "Euler? I 'ardly know 'er!"
04:55:59 * ehird sets up anti-swatting forcefield
04:57:14 <oerjan> euler knew 'er well, actually, being he had 13 children
04:58:01 <ehird> terrible novelty rap idea: euler pimpin'
05:01:02 <ehird> your opinion is almost certainly false.
05:01:22 <ehird> ok, that was mildly amusing
05:01:44 <ehird> although i note that my brain must be adjusting my expectations for xkcd, because i didn't even smile or chuckle internally.
05:02:00 <ehird> beats the last one.
05:02:32 <ehird> that line was funnier than the whole xkcd, which is saying something
05:02:56 <ehird> that one comic that is, not the whole of xkcd, which used to be great.
05:06:41 <Gregor> ehird: But it pales in comparison to QWANTZ!!!
05:07:28 <ehird> I'd say xkcd used to be as good as Dinosaur Comics, just different. As in: as good, but on a different metric.
05:07:36 <ehird> Nowadays, no competition. <3 qwantz
05:11:12 <Gregor> I wurve Dinosaur Comics, I give it more than 3. >3 qwantz
05:12:02 <Gregor> http://codu.org/music/Op11/GRegor-op11-StringQuartet-wipp1.ogg why do I keep doing these things? Yet another (partially-completed) piece I will never actually hear.
05:13:52 <Gregor> Because I am not a string quartet.
05:14:12 <ehird> a string quartet could play it
05:14:21 * pikhq gives Gregor several more arms and the ability to play string instruments
05:14:32 <Gregor> ehird: I have neither the skill, connections or money to make such an eventuality come to pass.
05:14:40 <ehird> someone else could spontaneously compose it
05:14:41 <Gregor> That's right, I have neither of those three things.
05:14:55 <ehird> also, virtual string quartet technology could reach a high point.
05:15:36 <ehird> Gregor: I have a T-Rex is Lonely submission.
05:15:47 <Gregor> Comics, title, alt text.
05:15:57 <Gregor> , contributor name/pseudonym
05:17:05 <ehird> 820,716; Uhh I'll have to think; something along the lines of "some things are just too awesome to let sinister robot clones get in the way"? I don't know, I'm a munger, not a title text author! You need committees for this stuff; ehird
05:17:11 <ehird> http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?panels=5,5&comics=820,716&strip uber-convenient linkomatron
05:17:40 <Gregor> ehird: There's somebody else talking.
05:17:48 <ehird> i didn't even notice that
05:18:02 <ehird> photoshop the dialog line to t-rex, it works just as well! or don't.
05:18:19 <Gregor> I hate rejecting the there's-somebody-eelse-talking-who-isn't-really-plot-relevant-for-the-munge-but-kinda-ruins-the-whole-T-Rex-being-lonely-thing ones.
05:18:33 <ehird> is that "somebody else, who is an eel"?
05:18:50 <ehird> the t-rex-is-lonely thing makes the second panel funnier
05:19:00 <ehird> the bold text being equivalent to "DURING THE NIGHT NOTHING HAPPENED:"
05:20:08 <ehird> Last week the world's pink banana supplies were depleted.
05:20:40 <ehird> YES. Every single pink banana supply in existence was emptied.
05:21:01 <ehird> Also, all the anti-gravity gorillas invaded Poland.
05:21:20 <Gregor> I hear every one in existence at the time was in the prime minister of Poland's personal sex-toy collection at the time anyway.
05:21:39 <oerjan> i suggest an ersatz of ordinary bananas covered in pink elephant hide
05:21:51 <ehird> Gregor: That doesn't work; it has to be a statement about all the members of an empty set
05:21:55 <ehird> otherwise it's false
05:22:14 <Gregor> ehird: ... it is a statement about all members of an empty set.
05:22:20 <Gregor> The set of pink bananas.
05:22:34 <ehird> I hear all the residents of the city in the Queen of England's vagina had a protest about it.
05:22:43 <ehird> (Sometimes I wonder what sort of brain I have to come up with concepts like that.)
05:23:06 <oerjan> as for personal sex-toy collection, i'd suspect the president more than the prime minister
05:24:21 <Gregor> I know nothing of Poland's government, except that it's probably neither fascism nor an anarchosyndicalist commune.
05:25:01 <ehird> THUS MAKING IT INHERENTLY UNINTERESTING
05:25:02 <oerjan> well the president and prime minister used to be twins
05:25:17 <oerjan> then they gave the prime minister the boot, the president is still there
05:25:23 <ehird> i'd totally go live in a fascist anarchosyndicalist commune
05:25:38 <ehird> with all the paradoxical architecture.
05:25:51 <ehird> i hear it's basically one big mc escher painting
05:26:10 <oerjan> well, until you notice the tentacles
05:27:00 <Gregor> No wonder we keep forgetting about it.
05:27:34 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaczynski
05:27:54 <oerjan> exercise: order those by craziness
05:28:11 <ehird> well Theodore Kaczynski probably comes in at the top...
05:28:28 <oerjan> let's not be too sure of that
05:28:30 <ehird> [[David Kaczynski (born October 3, 1949) is the Executive Director of New Yorkers For Alternatives to the Death Penalty,[1] and the brother of the "Unabomber" Theodore Kaczynski.]]
05:28:32 <ehird> [[He is also a practicing Buddhist and is a vegetarian.]]
05:29:02 <Gregor> How can every famous person of that name have been born within a decade of each other :P
05:31:08 <oerjan> hm i theorize they are actually aliens who got stranded here after that roswell crash
05:36:53 <augur> you might be interested in these books that i got off gigapedia
05:36:56 <Gregor> augur: Why do you always highlight me before actually typing the message? :P
05:37:00 <augur> about music structure
05:37:13 <augur> its the vocative, ok
05:37:26 <augur> if english still had a function vocative, id use it
05:38:17 <ehird> because we just see you as saying "name" to us
05:38:26 <ehird> in our highlight notifier thingummies.
05:39:03 <ehird> augur: don't you mean
05:39:21 <augur> IN YOUR ATTEMPT TO MOCK ME
05:39:25 <augur> YOU HAVE DONE WHAT YOU MOCK ME FOR
05:39:33 <ehird> THAT IS CALLED PARODY DICKWIPE
05:39:41 <augur> actually its called irony
05:39:41 <ehird> ("DICKWIPE" IS NOT SENSEMAKING)
05:39:54 <augur> WERE TALKING IN FORTRAN
05:40:04 <ehird> Were not shouting isn't grammatically correct, you know.
05:40:12 <Gregor> What am I waiting for?
05:40:17 <augur> gregor, theres this book composing music with computers, and cognition of basic musical structures, that you might be interested in
05:40:28 <augur> those are them sir
05:40:47 <Gregor> I didn't recognize that as I'm too tired to think.
05:40:50 <Gregor> And to that end, *sleep*
05:40:50 <augur> ehird: yes it is grammatically correctly. it just doesnt have punctuation that you want.
05:41:00 <ehird> grammatically correctly?
05:41:04 <augur> unfortunately, ehird, i dont care about your need for punctuation.
05:41:16 <ehird> anyway if you're going to ignore the laws of the english language, I'm going to interpret it how I want as you give no reference point
05:41:23 <augur> SUFFIX AUFNAHME, GOD.
05:41:24 <ehird> you did WHAT to the banana?
05:41:27 <ehird> that's fucking gross, man
05:41:34 <ehird> you raped that three-year-old.
05:41:36 <augur> im not ignoring the laws of the english language
05:41:42 <augur> im ignoring the laws of english orthography.
05:41:59 <ehird> which is part of the english language; wait, what did I say?
05:42:03 <ehird> never mind, weird tic there
05:42:11 <augur> actually no, orthography is not part of the language
05:42:13 <ehird> you're fucking deranged doing that to a new-born baby and a gorilla
05:42:18 <augur> its part of a cultural convention to record the language.
05:42:28 <augur> i am more intimately familiar with the laws of the english language than you ever will be and dont make me prove it! >O
05:42:29 <ehird> what's that? you have an urge to bomb the usa?
05:42:32 <ehird> well okay, I'll just call the fbi
05:42:35 * oerjan sneakily removes ehird's anti-swatting forcefield
05:42:55 <pikhq> augur: Star handing out parse trees.
05:42:56 <augur> BUT YOU DIDNT PUT UP YOUR ANTI PENIS FORCEFIELD
05:43:03 <ehird> Star handing? What?
05:43:12 <augur> pikhq: i could hand out parse trees. this is an idea.
05:43:25 <ehird> augur: you'd need to hand out parse trees of your parse trees
05:43:27 <augur> but i should instead start demanding he explain island constraints
05:43:28 <ehird> otherwise there's the same problem
05:43:32 <ehird> you need fixed point parse trees
05:44:08 <augur> kid probably doesnt even KNOW what an island constraint even IS! :|
05:44:28 <oerjan> i suggest constraining this to greenland
05:44:46 <oerjan> then maybe you'll cool down
05:44:50 <augur> hey, dont get all snooty that greenland just declared independence
05:44:52 <pikhq> augur: Make those parse trees be in sexp notation. I highly doubt he will claim not to know sexps. :P
05:45:07 <oerjan> augur: er, that's a little of an overstatement
05:45:19 <augur> oerjan youd better shut up
05:45:32 <augur> otherwise the glorious armies of the greenlandic empire will crush you
05:45:54 <oerjan> they don't have enough people for a glorious army
05:46:32 <augur> pikhq: itd be difficult to do that tho i think. a lot of contemporary parse trees also involve movement, which is tricky to denote without actual tree diagrams
05:47:41 <pikhq> augur: Yeah, natural languages *are* quite a bit less well-suited to such notation as "sexps". Bit of a pain.
05:48:00 <augur> well, some people think otherwise, but alas, they are silly.
05:48:24 <Asztal> That's why we have Ithkuil
05:48:46 <augur> ithkuil is all morphology
05:48:55 <augur> and almost no syntax
05:49:01 <augur> and certainly no real syntax
05:49:26 <augur> i have great respect for quijada, but he, like most conlangers, neglects syntax
05:49:32 <augur> probably for lack of understanding.
05:50:00 <augur> of all the overt parts of language, syntax is by far the most mysterious and complicated.
05:50:11 <augur> morphology maybe less so, depending on your view of its relation to syntax
05:50:18 <pikhq> It occurs to me that legal systems really need access to things like patch and diff.
05:50:29 <pikhq> 'Article 7 shall be amended as follows:
05:50:29 <pikhq> (a) throughout the Article, the word "assent" shall be replaced by "consent", the reference to breach "of principles mentioned in Article 6(1)" shall be replaced by a reference to breach "of the values referred to in Article 2" and the words "of this Treaty" shall be replaced by "of the Treaties";'
05:50:50 <augur> pikhq: thats too sensible a thing to have.
05:50:52 <coppro> pikhq: there was a /. article about that today
05:50:54 <pikhq> That is so very... Hard to grok what it's doing.
05:51:07 <ehird> agora is better-organised than the law.
05:51:16 <ehird> come to think of it, so is B.
05:51:49 <coppro> Agora doesn't use diff, Agora uses whatever bloody means we feel like of specifying amendments
05:51:52 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
05:52:01 <pikhq> Agora, too, could probably use diff or patch. But it seems much less necessary.
05:52:23 <Warrigal> I find it weird when people claim that language itself is spoken and writing is just a representation of it.
05:52:42 <ehird> Which wasn't weird when it was implemented!
05:52:43 <augur> warrigal: well, yes, language is more than just speech
05:52:53 <augur> when English generally means spoken english
05:53:01 <augur> the rules for written english are not the same as spoken english
05:53:11 <ehird> writing is far more important than speech.
05:53:16 <Warrigal> Written English can be made to approximate spoken English, or it can be generated directly.
05:53:22 <augur> and orthography is the loosest part of written english, anyway.
05:53:46 <augur> warrigal, have you been reading derrida?
05:54:37 <Warrigal> While the two media can mostly represent each other, certain things, such as s/- -/- -/, are peculiar to one medium.
05:54:44 <Warrigal> I sound like I've been reading Derrida, don't I.
05:54:56 <augur> DIFFERANCE DIFFERANCE DIFFERANCE
05:55:10 <augur> what is this s/- -/- -/
05:55:37 <ehird> presumably a fucked up attempt at a regexp
05:56:14 <Warrigal> Actually more like an all-over-the-place-fix.
05:57:06 <augur> what is it that is peculiar to one medium here now
05:57:26 <Warrigal> Well, "s/everyday/every day/" is certainly more likely to be written than spoken.
05:57:49 <AnMaster> <ehird_> bit crappy for computing, though. <-- better than a computer if you are out of electricity ;P
05:58:03 <ehird> i use a potato for all my computation needs.
05:58:21 <ehird> i am currently sitting on a power line, chiseling this potato that i connected to it with a headphone wire.
05:58:41 <augur> warrigal: well, spaces are a written phenomena, so you're write in that regard :P
05:58:51 <AnMaster> wth ← is mapped to both AltGr+i and AltGr+y today. Usually the arrow pointing the other way is mapped to AltGr+y but today it seems gone
05:58:52 <ehird> that was a pun write?
05:59:10 <Warrigal> Well, something like "s/this/these/" as well.
05:59:32 <augur> this/these are different in number, and show up both in spoken and written english
05:59:36 <AnMaster> err usually the altgr+i is the other one
05:59:39 <augur> in exactly the same contexts
06:00:09 <Warrigal> Yes, but I highly doubt a person would say "s/this/these/" out loud. They'd say, "Er, I mean 'these', not 'this'."
06:00:42 <Warrigal> (Though if they did say it out loud, would they say "ess slash this slash these slash" or just "ess this these"?)
06:00:43 <augur> oh i see what you mean
06:01:02 <augur> the actual <s/ / /> construction
06:01:04 <ehird> s/this/these/ is not english.
06:01:13 <augur> well, yes, as ehird said, thats not english.
06:01:16 <augur> not even written english.
06:01:49 <ehird> it's a useful adoption into obsessed-programmer-internet-typed-english, but that's a distinct language from english.
06:01:52 <Warrigal> It's a construction used in conjunction with English.
06:02:12 <augur> that doesnt make it english
06:02:55 <Warrigal> If I say "I understand what the raison d'etre of this product is", presumably I'm not switching to French and back in the middle of that sentence.
06:03:11 <ehird> raison d'etre has been adopted into english
06:03:14 <augur> no, but thats a phrase that has been adopted into english.
06:03:20 <ehird> s/foo/bar/ has not, and furthermore only applies in written english
06:03:23 <ehird> well, not even written english
06:03:24 <augur> stop precopying me.
06:03:27 <ehird> english typed on the internet
06:03:42 <ehird> which is nowhere near ubiquitous enough to be actual english
06:03:48 <augur> so you might say its dialect specific, in some sense
06:03:54 <augur> but its not english in the general sense.
06:03:57 <ehird> "social recluse english"
06:04:13 <Warrigal> I don't think any degree of ubiquity is required for something to be an English word.
06:04:34 <pikhq> Y'mean English doesn't have every word? :P
06:05:15 <ehird> <Warrigal> I don't think any degree of ubiquity is required for something to be an English word.
06:05:21 <ehird> most ridiculous assertion i've heard today
06:05:29 <Warrigal> It doesn't have every word, but it does have the word "prederelictionism" despite the fact that nobody ever uses that word.
06:05:50 <ehird> people did in the past, if it's english
06:06:04 <ehird> also, http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=prederelectionism&btnG=Search&meta=
06:06:05 <augur> well, warrigal, it has that word regardless of people using it or not
06:06:08 <ehird> i find your claim dubious
06:06:12 <augur> because its generable by the grammar of the language
06:06:34 <augur> its not a compound
06:06:37 <augur> its just morphologically complex
06:07:10 <Warrigal> I suppose I wonder what it takes for a word to be "adopted into" English.
06:07:32 <augur> ask a dialectologist.
06:07:48 <augur> the notion of "english" is already well beyond anything we can grasp concretely
06:08:15 <augur> there is no clear way of "language" vs "dialect"
06:08:25 <Warrigal> You guys have been making claims about the dubject without being dialectologists, haven't you?
06:08:34 <augur> any definition either makes everyone speak a different language, or makes everyone in europe speak the same language.
06:08:57 <augur> im a syntactician/semanticist. this predisposes me to make claims about things i know nothing about
06:09:59 <ehird> recelogical douchebags!
06:10:02 <Warrigal> Anyway, my Internet connection is being unhappy, so I guess I'll be going now.
06:10:17 <ehird> but i am happily uncaught
06:11:50 <augur> you are british afterall, so one might expect.
06:12:21 <ehird> lawl, that thought process crossed my head but i couldn't think of a way to continue that trail of thought into ever more ridiculous words without seeming creepy
06:12:39 <augur> i have no problems with being creepy
06:13:16 <augur> in my windowless van over here theres lots of icecream
06:13:24 <ehird> i am a discerning pedophile-victim-to-be, you see.
06:14:15 <augur> ehird, does it bother you that a popular british tv show about gay guys in manchester had a 30 year old involved with a 15 year old?
06:14:22 <augur> given that this is just one year older than you?
06:14:38 <ehird> not really. in a year those two could fuck.
06:14:48 <ehird> isn't the age of consent in the usa like 34 or something :-P
06:15:04 <augur> wait, so all i'd have to do is wait two years and then i can totally sex you?
06:15:15 <ehird> slightly less than two years, in fact.
06:15:26 <ehird> well, that assertion isn't true; it assumes i'd consent.
06:15:33 <augur> you know you would
06:15:38 <augur> there'd be nomads!
06:16:17 <augur> whichever form you find most erotic!
06:16:20 <augur> so i want to design an esolang
06:16:26 <ehird> as bits on a screen?
06:16:31 <augur> its strongly typed
06:16:38 <ehird> i'm not sure how you can have sex in-memory.
06:16:41 <augur> but where the types are enormously constrained
06:16:50 <augur> as are the possible modes of combining primitives
06:17:54 <augur> im curious now what sort of stuff you get off to
06:18:07 <augur> im pretty sure i have some idea of what i was getting off to when i was 14
06:18:11 <ehird> do you really have to have that thought in your head
06:18:23 <ehird> that's practically like raping me. even though you're not even changing my neurons or body in any way.
06:18:31 <ehird> clearly this proves that all consciousness is intertwined
06:18:34 <augur> well in a completely not sexual fashion, its an interesting question
06:18:37 <ehird> and the barriers between our minds are artificial
06:20:09 <ehird> i request one thing: do not combine the current and previous topics.
06:20:20 <augur> esolangs and you naked?
06:20:38 <augur> thats it isnt it?!
06:20:43 <augur> you jerk off to esolangs!
06:21:18 <ehird> i can state that that is categorically false.
06:21:28 <ehird> what does categorically even mean in that term, anyway
06:21:32 <ehird> how does it differ from "false" :P
06:21:50 <augur> so this idea that i have is that like
06:21:54 <coppro> I think it means "every statement of the same nature is false"
06:22:23 <augur> maybe there are only three or four primitives, and one or two primitive combinators
06:22:36 <augur> and it doesnt produce all possible functions like SKI does
06:22:53 <ehird> coppro: define same nature
06:22:59 <augur> or it might, but it might be extraordinarily constrained in how those those functions can look and behave
06:23:53 <augur> also, ive been introduced recently to Tarski's original ideas
06:23:59 <augur> very interesting form of logic he has
06:24:18 <augur> its kind of like lambda calculus, but not quite
06:24:30 <augur> the idea is something like this
06:24:58 <augur> you have a (finite?) set of atomic symbols a,b,c,...
06:25:01 <ehird> "Abstract: We show that the time evolution of the wave function of a quantum mechanical many particle system can be implemented very efficiently on a quantum computer. The computational cost of such a simulation is comparable to the cost of a conventional simulation of the corresponding classical."
06:25:03 <ehird> --http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9603026
06:25:13 <augur> an infinite number of variable symbols (x,x',x'',...)
06:25:30 <ehird> what comes after z
06:25:43 <Sgeo> Is it still possible to obtain Lisp machines?
06:25:47 <ehird> that's not an infinite set
06:25:51 <ehird> Sgeo: yes, for around $600
06:26:04 <ehird> you have to go over and pick it up though
06:26:18 <augur> and you have a finite number of capital letters R, P, ...
06:26:29 <augur> and on this you define
06:26:34 <ehird> Sgeo: price list - http://www.lispmachine.net/symbolics.txt
06:26:48 <ehird> http://www.symbolics-dks.com/
06:26:58 <augur> a fixed number of valid "sentence forms" using those capital letters
06:27:11 <ehird> the http://loper-os.org/ guy acquired one recently and has posted a little about it
06:27:23 <augur> each capital letter having a single sentence associated with it
06:27:31 <augur> the sentence forms are such that like
06:27:46 <augur> Rxy is really a class of sentences, where R is followed by any two variables
06:27:55 <augur> so Rxx Rxx' Rx'x Rx'x' Rxx'' ...
06:28:01 <augur> are all valid sentences
06:28:30 <augur> you can also take valid sentences and replace any variable with an atomic symbol
06:28:42 <augur> and you get another valid sentence
06:29:00 <augur> so Rxx' with x -> a becomes Rax'
06:29:16 <augur> and then you have some combinations
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06:29:24 <augur> so any two valid sentences can be &ed
06:29:46 <augur> Rxy & Px is a valid sentence
06:30:21 <augur> and you can bind with quantifiers, so Rxy becomes ExRxy which has one less unbound variable
06:30:42 <augur> but in tarski's system, you ONLY have sentences
06:30:58 <augur> you dont have P or R or whatever as free objects you can do stuff with
06:31:03 <ehird> and they're all fucking boring sentences sdhfajkfhasjhfasf shut up
06:31:18 <augur> btu apparently its equivalent to LC
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06:34:28 <augur> but it has no functions...
06:35:33 <ehird> nor does your mother
06:36:06 <ehird> so i am downloading windows nt 4.0 workstation to play with it! my nerdiness has reached a plateau.
06:38:31 <ehird> so augur, does http://xkcd.com/114/ apply to you
06:38:50 <ehird> are you being insultd.
06:38:52 <augur> that i agree with saying "fuck computational linguistics"
06:38:55 <augur> or that im a computational linguist
06:39:04 <ehird> i guess the latter but it's so boring when you put it like that
06:39:31 <augur> im not reeeaaally a chomskyist except in that im most familiar with those frameworks
06:39:38 <augur> im definitely a generative linguist however
06:39:43 <augur> and i am not ryan north
06:40:00 <ehird> damned computational linguists on my lawn
06:40:14 <ehird> chomsky really needs to tie in his politics and linguistics
06:40:36 <augur> people ask him this
06:40:38 <augur> wat the connect is
06:40:44 <ehird> just publish a book titled On Politics & Linguistics and take every fucking thing he's ever said about either and tie them all in the most ridiculous way possible
06:41:21 <ehird> "Colourless green ideas sleep furiously, and therefore the cultivation of ideas is the blah blah blah"
06:43:31 * ehird quits torrent before seeding
06:43:35 <ehird> LEECHED IN YOUR FUCKING FACE
06:46:02 <augur> i'd leech in your face
06:46:10 <augur> oh, so my reason for bringing up tarskian logic is
06:46:23 <ehird> to leech in my face?
06:46:45 <augur> i'd be interesting to try to create a kind of language in which you had operations like that
06:46:59 <ehird> i'd be interesting to
06:47:22 <ehird> i thought you didn't respect english orthofucky
06:47:26 <ehird> why so apostrophical
06:47:32 <ehird> new favourite word
06:47:48 <ehird> it sounds like ... apocalyptic, castrophical, apostrophe, oh man
06:48:29 <augur> apostrophe catastrophy!
06:49:23 <ehird> apostrophy: a trophy you get from apostry
06:49:29 <ehird> *for doing apostry, rather
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07:28:32 <FireFly> It has no CSS support, right?
07:28:34 <ehird> It's retrolicious.
07:29:25 <pikhq> IE 4 was the first *browser* to have CSS support...
07:29:35 <ehird> it can't open google.com :P
07:29:58 <ehird> so at a time if you wanted css you had to add a bunch of crap to your system
07:30:02 <ehird> (IE "shell integration" shit etc)
07:30:49 * ehird ventures to the ever-useful http://www.litepc.com/ to pick up IEradicator
07:31:20 <ehird> not much point of a rock solid system that ships with IE on the desktop, is there
07:32:37 <ehird> but yeah, NT lacks sudo
07:32:50 <ehird> so i'm pretty tempted to remove my separate account and rename the administrator...
07:33:02 <ehird> but that's giving in!
07:33:30 <pikhq> Netscape 4 also had CSS, IIRC.
07:33:40 <ehird> yes, but was released after IE 4, no?
07:33:55 <ehird> also, netscape 4 can do too much; it was on the agenda of support for many sites as recently as 2004.
07:34:03 <ehird> too much because it FAILED HORRIBLY at doing them all.
07:34:11 <ehird> jwz is right, 4 is a crock of shit. 3 was nice
07:36:28 <ehird> ("Netscape 4 is dead. Thanks God." --http://web.archive.org/web/20060720060413/http://www.quirksmode.org/browsers/netscape4.html)
07:37:09 <ehird> iirc quirksmode used to crash on it, so before it did, it popped up an alert saying "This is Netscape's fault; sorry." or similar :D
07:38:58 <ehird> pikhq: ie 3 had css.
07:39:13 <pikhq> Oh, it was IE 3 that added it?
07:39:15 <ehird> "Microsoft's first attempt at an up-to date browser, Explorer 3 is quite impossible. Its implementation of both CSS and JavaScript are flawed and frankly unworkable. Basically, Explorer 3 knows enough of CSS to make your styled pages a complete disaster." --http://web.archive.org/web/20060716091823/www.quirksmode.org/browsers/explorer3.html
07:41:09 <ehird> http://www.litepc.com/download/IEradicator2001.zip ;; putting this link here for type-into-VM purposes
07:42:06 <ehird> Say, Chrome works on 2000, which is the (admittedly 4-years-in-the-making, and a *lot* changed in the computing world, and especially in NT 4 vs 2000, between 1996 and 2000, but still) successor to NT 4; I wonder if I could get it working on there?
07:43:28 * ehird renames My Computer to Computer. Relaxing.
07:43:53 <ehird> Wait shit, this won't have zip.
07:45:05 <ehird> http://filebin.ca/ogvebm
07:46:01 <ehird> Oops; access is denied.
07:46:09 <ehird> Log on as administr... pissed of this already.
07:46:19 <ehird> TIME TO MAKE ME THE ADMINISTRATOR WOOHOO
07:46:20 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
07:51:57 <ehird> sweet, it wrecked my system
07:52:10 <ehird> regsvr32, d'ya think that's registry server 32 eh
07:52:28 <ehird> because it isn't there y'see
07:53:29 <ehird> Well, whatever; rather odd that IEradicator would choose to remove it. Then again, NT isn't a supported version. But its successors are!
07:53:40 <ehird> Going to try the install CD's repairing.
07:56:17 <ehird> My life is one of eternal woe.
07:58:37 <ehird> Sweet, I held enter on OK and eventually it got the idea to delete system files for some reason
07:58:46 <ehird> Now it's telling me it can't find it again
07:59:35 <ehird> It's working now. How did that happen?
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08:02:09 <ehird> In the 95/98/2000 style look
08:02:16 <ehird> The minus and maximize/restore buttons are right next to each other
08:02:21 <ehird> But the X has spacing before it
08:04:44 <fizzie> Look, it's a virtual machine; why don't you just snapshot it before breaking it?
08:05:06 <ehird> fizzie: because I am
08:05:15 <ehird> TOO COOL FOR VM SNAPSHOTS
08:05:29 <ehird> it is so fucking reasonable.
08:08:52 <ehird> http://www.geocities.com/bearwindows/win2x.htm ;; complete and utter beautiful hysterical insanity
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08:28:47 <ehird> apparently when ms stop supporting a service pack they remove its download
08:28:56 <ehird> thus leaving people on an older, more buggy version with more problems
08:29:02 <ehird> i really don't see the logic there
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09:56:05 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
10:17:57 <ehird> "The point is, regardless of what I might expect, why would it be allowed to write a line of code that literally does absolutely nothing, can never do anything, and is basically just skipped, without at least giving you a warning?"
10:18:00 <ehird> the stupid! it burns!
10:18:10 * ehird idly wonders how a concept can be acidic
10:18:55 <Deewiant> A warning /would/ make sense IMO
10:19:22 <ehird> Yes, but read the line without context.
10:19:44 <ehird> By its logic, we would need to add a checker to the run-time system of every good language checking for the effects of a statement, and warn if nothing happens.
10:20:39 <Deewiant> No, it's quite sensible, just impossible
10:20:57 <ehird> You be the crazy too x.x
10:42:32 <ehird> "Problem 11: I want to see HICOLOR icons in system tray
10:42:32 <ehird> Solution: Patch explorer.exe:"
10:44:45 <ehird> >1MiB/s interwebs from google's servers
10:56:23 <Rugxulo> ehird, did you ever get Creatures (or whatever) to run on Win95?
10:56:38 <ehird> it could have been done trivially by installing ie 4.
10:56:43 <ehird> i didn't bother to extract the DLLs
10:57:00 <ehird> now, getting it to work on nt 4 would be a challenge...
10:57:09 <ehird> although mostly of the annoying variety
10:57:35 <ehird> aw, ff doesn't even support nt 4 any more :)
10:57:47 <ehird> nobody loves 2000's predecessor.
10:57:56 <Rugxulo> well, it's from 1996, right?
10:58:04 <Rugxulo> not sure when the last SP was
10:58:09 <ehird> sure! but it still had the basis of the NT kernel in 2000 in it
10:58:29 <Rugxulo> I think 2k is allegedly much better (never tried either, though, honestly)
10:58:31 <ehird> sure, it had win95's graphical environment on top of it... but still, supporting it is way easier than 9
10:58:35 <ehird> ADMITTEDLY, nobody uses it, but
10:58:53 <ehird> Rugxulo: NT 4 is fine; 2000 has that unremovable-without-major-surgery IE integration crap
10:59:09 <ehird> what would be the fun in using a legacy OS if I didn't have to hunt for software
10:59:42 <Rugxulo> it's hard to find stuff that ain't for the big three: Linux 2.6, Win XP+, Mac OS X 10.4+
10:59:51 <ehird> 2000+ is more common I think
11:00:06 <Rugxulo> it bugs me to think that programmers are too lazy to write for older OSes too ("it's too hard, wah wah wah")
11:00:08 <ehird> also 10.5+ is about as common as 10.4 in total
11:00:11 <ehird> and much more common for new stuff
11:00:16 <ehird> Rugxulo: it's not laziness, it's not wasting time
11:00:27 <Rugxulo> but Mac ain't as nice as Windows, no free service packs there
11:00:38 <ehird> you think the 10.x upgrades are service packs?
11:00:42 <ehird> no, the 10.x.y upgrades are
11:00:47 <ehird> 10.x = major release
11:01:05 <ehird> yes, it's confusing; it's meant to reflect the same basic UNIX base + Aqua + Cocoa
11:01:14 <Rugxulo> Vista "vanilla" and SP1 and SP2 are quite different
11:01:21 <Rugxulo> same with XP pre-SP2 and afterwards
11:01:22 <ehird> nowhere near at all
11:01:41 <ehird> the 10.x versions are nothing like service packs; they're major releases in every sense
11:02:04 <ehird> am i challenging that?
11:02:33 <ehird> as someone who knows what an SP is and has gone through them, and used a mac for 2-3 years, I'm pretty sure I'm qualified to judge whether 10.x releases are service packs...
11:04:05 <Rugxulo> anyways, it's hard using a non-mainstream OS
11:04:20 <ehird> also, note that most Linux software supports modern BSDs too
11:04:34 <ehird> and it's perfectly possible to use a modern BSD happily, as long as you can deal with the ports abomination
11:05:12 <ehird> what. tweakui isn't available for nt?!
11:05:21 <ehird> i have to remove network neighborhood in the registry? ABOMINATORY!
11:05:50 <Rugxulo> I've only briefly played with a few *BSD .ISOs
11:06:01 <ehird> The BSD kernel is probably better than Linux.
11:06:12 <Rugxulo> they are anti-GPLv3, though
11:06:21 <ehird> No; they're anti-GPL. And thank god for that.
11:06:27 <Rugxulo> and latest GNU stuff is pro-GPLv3
11:06:39 <ehird> they still ship gpl 3 stuff
11:06:41 <ehird> they just don't like to
11:06:41 <Rugxulo> but they will use GPLv2, but they won't even touch v3
11:06:49 <ehird> wrong, wrong, wrong
11:06:54 <ehird> go install a modern bsd, install gcc
11:06:55 <Rugxulo> maybe in ports, but not GCC
11:06:57 <ehird> check what version it is
11:07:05 <ehird> Rugxulo: that's just the kernel compiler
11:07:06 <Rugxulo> last I checked, it was all versions <= 4.2.1 (GPLv2)
11:07:12 <ehird> for the userspace compiler, you get the latest gcc, I'm fairly certain
11:07:21 <Rugxulo> you can get it, but it's not default
11:07:33 <ehird> doesn't matter, base systems are useless
11:07:36 <ehird> you need to install something
11:07:40 <Rugxulo> because they hate GPLv3 (and some, e.g. Theo, claim GCC keeps getting slower and buggier)
11:07:44 <ehird> heck, on debian/ubuntu you need to install build-essential to get any sort of compiler
11:07:53 <Rugxulo> no, Ubuntu has a compiler already
11:08:08 <ais523> it has gcc, but only for compiling kernel modules
11:08:15 <ais523> it doesn't have things like system headers and libc-dev
11:08:22 <ehird> pretty worthless then
11:08:22 <ais523> unless you install build-essentical
11:08:32 <Rugxulo> I'm pretty sure it does have libc-dev
11:08:38 <ais523> I had to install it by hand
11:08:47 <ais523> (this is before I knew about build-essential)
11:08:48 * Rugxulo has compiled some C++ on several versions of Ubuntu
11:09:10 <Rugxulo> the C++ compiler is there (packed) but not installed
11:09:26 <ehird> so my current obstacle in my crazy, insane, fucked up Chrome-on-NT4 plan is that the Google Installer (yes, installer) requires 2000 sp3
11:10:08 <Rugxulo> like I've said before, for some oddball reason, people only support certain versions, and Win2k is really starting to be dropped (or already was, e.g. VirtualBox)
11:10:14 <Deewiant> So how likely do you think it is that Chrome itself requires less than that?
11:10:21 <ehird> Only support certain versions? How crazy.
11:10:26 <ehird> do you want people to support 3.11 or sth
11:10:54 <ehird> well, I'm glad every developer isn't you, or every application would be held back and buggy due to spending all their time supporting ancient OSs
11:11:05 <Rugxulo> they don't even try, though, which is frustrating
11:11:06 <ehird> I'm not surprised chrome doesn't support NT 4, I think that's perfectly reasonable, and I'm not bothered by it; I'm just tinkering
11:11:37 <ehird> Rugxulo: yes, because if there isn't any demand for it, the only justification for supporting it is for fun
11:11:43 <Rugxulo> well, it's weird when things work one day and not the next, all due to developer whims
11:11:49 <ehird> corporations don't want to waste huge amounts of time on fun for obviosu reasons
11:12:04 <Rugxulo> corporations also don't want to waste money just to upgrade just for support in what already works
11:12:04 <ehird> and hobbyists, surprisingly, don't find porting every new feature to 3.11 fun
11:12:23 <ehird> oh, so you don't want to support 3.11?
11:12:36 <Rugxulo> but even Win98SE is considered bad now (although at the time it was plenty good enough ... did they forget what they knew then? I doubt it)
11:12:38 <ehird> what about people who use 3.11? where's the cutoff?
11:12:52 <Rugxulo> the cutoff is only where their skills end
11:12:59 <Rugxulo> support everything you're able, I say
11:13:21 <ehird> wow, yeah, you're right, it's not conceivable that technology could advance or - look, you're clearly driven to this insane timewasting idea of supporting every single OS in your raw ability by an irrational nostalgia for those old OSs, so I'm not going to be able to convince you otherwise.
11:13:55 <Rugxulo> they don't support anything besides latest stuff, and it's sickening
11:14:03 <ais523> anyway, what we really need is portable programs
11:14:15 <ehird> aaand with "sickening" you prove that indeed you're basing this on emotional, rather than rational grounds
11:14:27 <ais523> say something in portable C that only used the standard section of the library could probably compile to windows 3.1 without porting, but that's very restrictive
11:14:45 <ehird> is it in your ability to write a whole HTTP stack for 3.1?
11:14:53 <ehird> OS support must only end at your ability!!11112
11:15:16 <Rugxulo> but OpenWatcom does support it, so who knows ;-)
11:15:22 <ehird> i was talking to ais523
11:15:23 <ais523> do you need a whole stack? or just bits of it?
11:15:39 <ais523> I can imagine porting wget to 3.1, but you'd need a TCP library
11:15:40 <ehird> All of it! We're writing a combined web server/browser/toaster!
11:15:48 <ehird> In fact, I do believe we need to implement every library possible.
11:15:52 <ehird> Quick! Quick! Busywork!
11:16:18 <ehird> Hrm... what's this I keep hearing about 500 critical unsolved bugs for modern operating systems... eh, who uses those things. So about our 3.1 library roadmap...
11:16:31 <Rugxulo> even Win2k came out with like a billion bugs ...
11:16:34 <ais523> also, stupid login page: a) it redirects you off the resulting page on an unsuccessful login, rather than just taking you to it; b) the strong password requirements mean that, for the first time in ever, I've forgotten my password because I memorised the old one rather than the one corrected to comply with it
11:17:23 * ehird wonders what browsers other than opera, seamonkey, k-meleon would wok
11:17:42 <Rugxulo> maybe some compile of dillo?
11:18:09 <ehird> This is the first time in history I've been tempted to say "Never mind, I'll just use IE 6" :-P
11:19:13 * ais523 tries to remember when NT 4 came out, timewise
11:19:19 <Rugxulo> that would probably open your possibilities a lot
11:19:20 <ais523> Rugxulo: you're mad, Cygwin doesn't even run on Wine
11:19:35 <ais523> you'd be better off trying to run Wine on it
11:19:39 <ais523> and running modern browsers that way
11:19:39 <Rugxulo> eh? Cygwin still runs on Win9x (until 1.7 is out of beta)
11:20:03 <ehird> Cygwin runs on 3.11 iirc
11:20:16 <Rugxulo> there's a Swspacket (sp?) driver that emulates the DOS packet API, maybe letting you use elinks, lynx, Arachne, etc.
11:20:23 <ehird> NT 4 is 1996; NT 3 kernel + 95 GUI, pretty much
11:20:44 <Rugxulo> I'd bet OffByOne works, but it's like HTML 3.2 only
11:20:49 <Rugxulo> Arachne is at least mostly 4.0
11:20:54 <ehird> Seems quite sturdy so far; the Control Panel is less usable than 95, though, due to being all corporatey and stuff.
11:21:08 <ehird> And the users kind of get in the way since you don't have sudo; I'm just running as admin.
11:21:09 <Rugxulo> compared to 95, it should be rock solid
11:21:11 <ehird> But it doesn't crash, so.
11:21:20 <ehird> It feels sturdier.
11:21:40 <ehird> Also, it has a proper task manager like in 2000/XP/Vista/7! Yay!
11:21:54 * ehird wonders why the context menus have slightly different padding/spacing in NT
11:21:58 <ehird> seems an odd thing to change for the new release...
11:22:04 <Rugxulo> it's considered much better, which is why people didn't whine too too hard about worse compatibility
11:22:11 <ehird> "oh, it looks better this way... let's tweak this from our mostly-identical GUI subsystem"
11:22:15 <ais523> aargh! the .login here is a tcsh script
11:22:24 <ehird> Rugxulo: Unfortunately, the last DirectX it supports is 3.
11:22:36 <ehird> So games are pretty much impossible with NT 4, which is a shame.
11:22:46 <ehird> I know, but it sucks to have to use an unstable OS for games. :P
11:22:50 <ehird> (If you want to be all retro.)
11:22:51 <Rugxulo> another arbitrary decision from MS ...
11:23:11 <Rugxulo> yes, instability sucks, but rock solid stability that can't run anything (*Vista*) ain't too much better
11:23:22 <ehird> no, presumably the NT 4 kernel was missing functionality and design constraints that made it too hard to support the additional DirectX code without much more effort, ETC
11:23:34 <Rugxulo> yeah, just like XP couldn't get DX10, yeah right
11:23:48 <ehird> Rugxulo -- knowing more about DirectX than anyone who's ever seen the DirectX source since 2009
11:23:56 <Rugxulo> and 2k3 doesn't even get any more service packs despite *known* bugs
11:23:57 <ehird> Rugxulo: also, did you just say Vista can't run anything...?
11:24:09 <Rugxulo> Vista has bugs where even XP ran fine
11:24:17 <ehird> "rock solid stability that can't run anything (*Vista*)"
11:24:23 <ais523> wow, Yahoo's POP3 has become unstable recently, it hangs half the time
11:24:29 <ais523> it never used to do that...
11:24:29 <Deewiant> Master of Orion II needs DirectX >= 3, it might run
11:24:30 <ehird> why are you using POP.
11:24:35 <ais523> ehird: because Yahoo doesn't support IMAP
11:24:39 <ehird> Deewiant: That's a whole one game
11:24:40 <Rugxulo> MS made a deal with Yahoo!, probably switching all their FreeBSD -> MS crud
11:24:44 <ehird> ais523: why are you using yahoo
11:24:50 <ehird> Rugxulo: seriously?
11:24:52 <ais523> ehird: I happened to have a spare yahoo account lying around
11:24:54 <ehird> the deal was with the search engines
11:25:00 <ehird> and a separate one to advertise IE 8
11:25:01 <ais523> and I probably trust them the most out of the large webmail providers
11:25:09 <ehird> what is it with geeks and insane tech conspiracise
11:25:18 <Deewiant> Most of the games I consider excellent don't depend on any version of DirectX.
11:25:23 <ehird> are we too insecure to admit one of us might have fucked up somewhere in system administration :P
11:25:30 * Rugxulo wonders if DOSBox works on NT 4
11:25:40 <ehird> Rugxulo: Link me up and I'll see.
11:25:44 <ehird> hey, 3.11 runs in dosbox
11:25:59 <ehird> almost certainly slower than a virtualiser ofc
11:26:17 <Rugxulo> Win95 didn't need to be bundled with DOS, but MS did it that way to compete better
11:26:34 <ais523> whereas 3.1 requires some OS to run on
11:26:44 <ehird> 95 starts up from dos
11:26:58 <Rugxulo> so does Win9x, there's allegedly no reason it couldn't run on DR-DOS, but that never happened due to bundling
11:27:00 <ais523> (apparently 3.1 worked with Dr. DOS too, but they added a scary error message to make people think it was inferiot)
11:27:11 * ehird wonders why NT installs to C:\WINNT; to distinguish it from 9x or something?
11:27:18 <Rugxulo> the error message was only in 3.1 beta, it was removed for final release
11:27:24 <ehird> incidentally, the 95-era explorer normalises capitalisation...
11:27:25 <Rugxulo> DR-DOS ran 3.1 faster than MS-DOS
11:27:34 <Rugxulo> DR-DOS kinda kicks MS-DOS' butt
11:27:36 <ehird> WINNT becomes Winnt, FOO baR baz becomes Foo Bar Baz...
11:27:55 <ais523> ehird: because many old programs saved in allcaps
11:28:02 <ais523> it didn't matter with 8.3
11:28:08 <ehird> I don't find it surprising that Windows would only work on MS-DOS on purpose
11:28:14 <ais523> but it /did/ matter when going to LFN, which was case-preserving although case-insensitive
11:28:14 <ehird> It seems like a reasonable thing to do
11:28:23 <ehird> annoying, sure, but understandable and not evil...
11:28:25 <Rugxulo> well, they had to pay a bunch of money after-the-fact to Caldera (1998?) because of that
11:28:46 * ehird wishes MS hadn't called it Recycle Bin just to avoid getting sued by Apple/Atari/whatever
11:28:49 <ehird> it doesn't recycle anything, dammit!
11:28:50 <Rugxulo> it's not evil, but it definitely wasn't a technical requirement
11:28:56 <Rugxulo> they just didn't want DOS clones
11:28:57 <ehird> it's a trash can/rubbish bin that you empty later!
11:29:02 <ais523> you wouldn't want them all falling into the bitbucket
11:29:09 <ehird> i'm tempted to rename it Bit Bucket
11:29:31 <ehird> yes, but not for that
11:29:35 <Rugxulo> but that was way back when, and it didn't last long
11:29:35 <ehird> for copying the GUI in the first place
11:29:48 <Rugxulo> I think they lost, though, because you can copyright UI
11:29:50 <ehird> and then Xerox came along and sued Apple, going "um, actually, we did that"
11:29:57 <ehird> and then Apple lost both cases
11:30:13 <Rugxulo> e.g. non-overlapping Windows in Win 1.0 (ugh)
11:30:39 <ehird> hey, the kids do that on purpose today
11:30:46 <Rugxulo> BTW, is it TweakUI that gives you multiple workspaces or some other tool? (I forget)
11:30:46 <ehird> call 'em tiling window managers! :P
11:30:52 <ehird> TweakUI doesn't do that
11:31:07 <ais523> aargh stupid filename-sensitivity of Java
11:31:09 <ehird> TweakUI is just a MS-made tool that gives you access to a bunch of registry keys about the UI
11:31:21 <ehird> ais523: I hate that so much
11:31:26 <Rugxulo> I don't use my XP machine barely at all anymore, so I don't remember TweakUI
11:31:37 <Rugxulo> case sensitivity in filenames is pretty useless
11:31:39 <ehird> it's available for 9x too
11:31:44 <ehird> Rugxulo: not case sensitivity
11:31:52 <ehird> which is good, because you can't define case sensitivity
11:31:53 <ais523> OTOH, it seems to be breaking even with the right filename
11:32:02 <ehird> unless you want to be an anglophone, which is pretty bigoted
11:32:09 <ehird> also, it makes the code simpler
11:32:14 <ehird> being just comparisons of opaque byte strings
11:32:39 <ehird> it isn't assigning semantics to the names
11:32:50 <Rugxulo> I'm saying who has Makefile makefile and MAKEFILE all in one dir anyways??
11:33:37 <ehird> that's not the point, at all
11:33:47 <ehird> in practice it rarely matters
11:33:53 <ehird> it causes annoying things like:
11:34:00 <ehird> even though the case is exposed
11:34:07 <ehird> you have to go via an intermediate file
11:34:13 <ehird> and, furthermore, it's impossible to do for all languages
11:34:16 <ehird> due to ill-defined notions of case
11:34:28 <Deewiant> rename fOO foo works but is a no-op, IIRC
11:34:28 <ehird> and, it complicates the code with stupid stuff like unicode, which is bad in a low-level fs
11:34:40 <ehird> it assigns semantics to file names: which isn't right.
11:34:54 <ehird> files shouldn't answer to the opaque byte strings that aren't theirs.
11:35:14 <ehird> that's just because windows does (and it's stupid)
11:35:15 <Deewiant> I always forget which endianness
11:35:43 <ehird> so should I rename the Recycle Bin to Bit Bucket, Trash, Trash Can, Rubbish, or Rubbish Bin :P
11:36:15 <ehird> but neither of those make any sense!
11:36:55 <ehird> maybe I'll call it, uh, how do you spell it
11:37:49 <ais523> we need TC garbage collection!
11:38:30 <ehird> your unfunniness is only limited by infinity
11:38:53 <ehird> maybe I'll call it Micro$HAFT Window$ SH!tsorce
11:38:59 <Rugxulo> well, I was gonna say Perl6, but I'm not serious about that one ;-)
11:40:26 <ehird> isn't that where they go *post* deletion
11:40:46 <ehird> also, does it seem strange to anyone else that windows prompts before moving something to the recycle bin?
11:40:53 <ehird> i mean... the whole point is that you can get it back later...
11:40:55 <ehird> why do we need warning
11:41:00 <ais523> not to me, based on what Windows thinks helps usability
11:41:15 <ais523> oh, btw, the Vista machines here have what is to me a massive usability bug
11:41:18 <Rugxulo> no worse than it asking every five minutes, "Wanna reboot now?" after silly updates
11:41:21 <ehird> if we bombard the user with more pointless dialogs, they'll surely pay more attention to them
11:41:29 <ais523> the log-out menu item says "Log out..."
11:41:34 <ais523> but doesn't pop up a dialog box, just logs out
11:41:37 <ehird> Rugxulo: that's gone nowadays actually
11:41:45 <ais523> those three dots have me waiting for ages for the dialog to come up
11:41:54 <ehird> I don't really pay attention to those things, but I hate such inconsistencies
11:42:06 <ehird> Rugxulo: yes it is; legacy installers lie about it, but you can switch graphics driver in 7 without rebooting, for example
11:42:12 <ehird> or without restarting the graphics subsystem
11:42:16 <ehird> or any graphical apps
11:42:19 <ehird> which is more than Xorg can do
11:42:31 <Rugxulo> and BTW, it offered me IE 8 in Windows update but not SP2, heh
11:42:37 <ais523> ehird: I'm trained to wait for a dialog box after clicking on a fake-ellipsis
11:42:43 <ais523> (maybe it's even a real one nowadays, for all I know)
11:42:55 <ehird> it isn't in GNOME, and that upsets me greatly
11:43:07 <ehird> however, GNOME uses it perfectly consistently throughout! YAY!!!
11:43:26 <ehird> well, apart from odd things like Accessories -> Search For Files...; technically true, but all apps pop up a window
11:43:42 <ehird> Rugxulo: ellipsis after a menu item = There will be a prompt asking for more information or a confirmation before this action is completed
11:43:49 <ehird> No ellipsis = as soon as you click, the action will happen
11:43:59 <ehird> For instance, Shut Down... [click] Are you sure you want to shut down?
11:44:08 <ehird> Force Major System Halt OMFG [click] [bzzt]
11:44:24 <ehird> Zoom In but Preferences..., etc
11:44:34 <ehird> well, not Preferences...
11:44:37 <Rugxulo> Ctrl Alt SysReq R E I S U B ... much easier ;-)
11:44:44 <ehird> since it's expected for menu items to do that
11:44:51 <ehird> too complicated to articulate :D
11:45:15 <Rugxulo> BTW, I unwrapped a copy of Falcon 3.0 yesterday, have yet to play it though
11:45:27 <Rugxulo> had it for a few years, just lazy I guess
11:45:56 <ais523> also, you have to hold down alt through the whole thing, but press and release sysrq before each letter
11:46:10 <ais523> I think it's a form of security through obscurity; the actual action is rather hard to describe
11:46:25 <Rugxulo> I just hold Ctrl-Alt-SysReq and while doing that press (in order) R E I S U B
11:46:30 <ais523> (it gets even more fun on a laptop keyboard, where sysrq is fun-prtsc)
11:46:44 <ais523> Rugxulo: hmm... clearly that works on a desktop keyboard but not a laptop one
11:47:07 <ais523> I tried many combinations, but holding SysRq fails, as does releasing alt
11:47:13 <ehird> I wish annoyances.org had an NT section
11:47:31 <Rugxulo> I wish it had an ehird section ;-)
11:47:56 <ehird> have i ever mentioned you're extremely witty. because if so I was clearly incorrect based on new evidence :P
11:48:00 <ehird> SCIENTIFIC INSULTS
11:48:22 <ehird> What's that IE? Crashed? WELL I'LL JUST TERMINATE YOUR PROCESS
11:48:36 <ehird> Guess Opera is the best bet for now...
11:48:48 <Rugxulo> so no Firefox runs on NT or just really really old ones?
11:49:07 <ehird> well, probably like 1.5 does, I imagine they dropped support of it with 95
11:49:14 <ehird> but if I wanted to run an outdated browser I'd stick with IE 6
11:49:21 <Rugxulo> yeah, I was thinking 1.5 probably worked
11:49:26 <ehird> plus, what's the challenge in using old software?
11:49:33 <ehird> i could get everything with no trouble like that!
11:49:46 <Rugxulo> IE 6 ain't great, esp. with most people intentionally dropping support (although I think Gmail works, maybe YouTube)
11:50:02 <ehird> "Opera cannot be upgraded while it is running." ...good to know, I'm not running Opera nor do I have it installed?
11:50:27 <ehird> IE 6 is horrible and I could never use it in good conscience, not because of dropping support mainly (although that too) but because in a previous life I did web stuff
11:50:40 <ehird> and it rivals netscape 4 in "oh god, please just let me die now"-ness
11:51:10 <Rugxulo> at least OffByOne supports tabs
11:51:12 * ehird elects to use the classic Opera installer
11:51:21 <ehird> they offer that even on new versions for some reason...
11:51:35 <ehird> yes, it also doesn't support css or javascript last i checked
11:51:39 <ehird> also, not even html 4
11:51:48 <Rugxulo> I know, but hey, better than nothing ;-)
11:53:41 <ais523> how do you set an environment variable in tcsh?
11:54:13 <ehird> exec bash; export FOO=BAR
11:54:27 <ais523> Rugxulo: thanks, that worked
11:54:48 <ehird> well, that ; wouldn't work, still
11:55:05 <ehird> oh dear, windows installs NT hofixes in add/remove
11:55:09 <ais523> who'd have thought that . in $CLASSPATH doesn't add the current directory, but putting the name of the current directory there does
11:55:13 <ehird> thus adding like 30 useless things ith jsut a number
11:55:17 <ehird> not even telling me what it fixes
11:55:21 <ais523> ehird: you didn't know that already?
11:55:36 <ehird> I know TweakUI can remove entries from Add/Remove; maybe I'll do that to declutter it, manually
11:55:47 <ehird> IE instlaled windows media player too
11:55:52 <ehird> good thing I'm eradicating it
11:56:26 <ehird> "Restore the previous Windows configuration." // fuck off, you're not a real OS component
11:56:33 <ehird> what you mean to say is "Uninstall me"
11:56:59 <ais523> "heading = 5399.999999999987 degrees"
11:57:17 <ais523> this applet clearly doesn't know about a) modular arithmetic, b) floating-point error
11:57:27 <ehird> incidentally, I'm considering basing my sandboxed distro on BSd.
11:58:08 <ais523> also, . is in the path here by default
11:58:18 <ais523> which seems slightly weird for a Linux distro aimed at businesses
11:58:24 <ehird> FreeBSD is the most active and has jails (not sure if the others do), NetBSD Runs On Everything(TM) and, basically, I like their style (although have never used their OS), and OpenBSD is ... dubiously ... secure
11:58:39 <ehird> I've read some things that make me doubt OpenBSD is so much hot stuff as opposed to, well, hot air
11:58:44 <ehird> also, I dislike Theo
11:59:00 <Rugxulo> NetBSD is pretty good although I think FreeBSD has more polish / fans / developers, OpenBSD mostly works but seems to lag behind and have bugs / regressions
11:59:08 <ehird> Linux has in its favour compatibility, popularity and Linus
11:59:33 <ehird> yes; I AM making the billion-and-oneth
11:59:44 <ehird> ...but not a nondescript one!
12:00:22 <ehird> Rugxulo: everyone else has a capability-based sandboxing system applied to the whole system as the security solution, plus package isolation and easy user-specific package installation?
12:00:32 <ehird> Wow, I'm totally out of date with the whole distro scene!
12:01:15 * ehird wonders if IEradicator will break NT again until he repairs it from the NT CD and hits OK a lot on the errors
12:01:18 <ehird> Rugxulo: define they?
12:01:22 <ehird> what's all weird, the things I stated or the distros
12:01:48 <ehird> there's maybe 10 distros that don't suck so much as to be not even worth considering using.
12:02:01 <ehird> and maybe 4-5 I'd actually consider using
12:02:18 <ehird> Rugxulo: lemme see... Ubuntu, Debian, Fedora, Slackware, Arch, uh...
12:02:24 <ehird> I'm sure there are five more.
12:02:49 <ehird> no, no and a thousand billion million times no to SuSE
12:02:53 <ehird> a strong meh to Puppy
12:03:05 <ehird> I'm going to pretend you never said that, ais523 :P
12:03:05 <ais523> well, LFS isn't technically a distro
12:03:14 <ehird> Rugxulo: mehhhhhhhh
12:03:16 <ehird> yet another distro
12:03:35 <ehird> i dislike source based distros and I dislike gentoo's culture
12:03:43 <ehird> also, gentoo is out of date an awful lot.
12:03:58 <ehird> Mepis is yet another damn distro!
12:04:05 <ais523> wait, why does rm prompt?
12:04:07 <ehird> the ones I mentioned are exceptional, everything else is mostly the same
12:04:12 <ehird> with a few things that are different, but not for the better
12:04:16 <ehird> ais523: alias rm=rm -i
12:04:19 <ehird> what system is this?
12:04:30 <ais523> with some really weird config, AFAICT
12:04:31 <ehird> I don't recall CentOS being so braindead by default
12:04:34 <ais523> at least, I haven't seen anything similar
12:04:43 <ais523> I doubt it's default, this looks like it's been deliberately customised to be braindead
12:04:48 <ehird> ais523: do you think you're allowed to install software in ~?
12:04:58 <ehird> I suggest running user mode linux with something saner inside :P
12:05:09 <ehird> and killing X and starting one in the UML every time you start it up
12:05:11 <ais523> I'll just use my laptop
12:05:21 <ais523> also, startx is in the .login script
12:05:24 <ais523> rather than started automatically
12:05:33 <ais523> but I can't run the computer without X
12:05:38 <ais523> the screen doesn't work in text mode
12:05:47 <ais523> some weird incompatibility between the graphics card and screen
12:06:08 <ais523> it used not to work in graphics mode either, until they got a crappier cable so that the graphics card had to downgrade its output
12:06:17 <ais523> Rugxulo: no, it sends at the wrong frequency
12:06:25 * Rugxulo wonders about VESA text modes
12:06:32 <ehird> your university's IT department is seriously incompetent, ais523
12:06:43 <ehird> also their door department.
12:06:48 <ais523> well, they found a solution that worked, I suppose
12:06:51 <ais523> also, different department now
12:07:18 <ais523> the doors /here/ have so far been sane
12:07:19 <ais523> "rm: aliased to rm -i"
12:07:20 <ais523> wait, is which /supposed/ to do that?
12:07:23 <ais523> I thought it was type that did that
12:07:56 <ehird> `quotes' and space-punctuation
12:08:01 <ehird> that sentence causes deep-seated rage in me
12:08:16 <ais523> mtype appears to be a port of type from MS-DOS
12:08:24 <ais523> and type was the equivalent to cat
12:08:34 <ehird> now who on earth would want that...
12:08:43 <ais523> someone trying to parse MS-DOS line endings, presumably
12:08:54 <ehird> have they ever heard of tofrodos or dos2unix or...
12:08:58 <ais523> who didn't realise that less has done that for years
12:09:03 <ehird> I bet someone did it for the CLI interface
12:09:17 <ehird> oops, RAS syndrome
12:09:40 <ais523> wow, the man page for mtype has more information on telling you how to see the original texinfo documentation than it does about the actual program
12:09:57 <ais523> the information isn't the usual "run 'info mtype'"
12:09:58 <ehird> Gnit's the fguture.
12:10:05 <ais523> instead, it tells you how to compile the documentation from source
12:10:11 <ehird> I truly have infopages...
12:10:15 <ais523> this system is getting more bizzare by the second
12:10:20 <ehird> really really verbose, hard to navigate, sprawling...
12:10:40 <ehird> I probably have them too
12:10:46 <ehird> I imagine they're installed on this system.
12:11:04 <ais523> -----Info: (*manpages*)mtype
12:11:19 <ais523> I actually guessed that would happen, but wasn't sure
12:11:47 <Rugxulo> did you try "mtype /?" perhaps?
12:12:08 <ehird> A terrible idea: A program like biff(1), but instead of inform you when you have new mail, it informs you when jesus loves you.
12:12:21 <ais523> running it without arguments shows that the arguments are behind - now not /
12:12:24 <ais523> so it isn't a straight port
12:12:38 <ehird> they could put it in ubuntu christian edition.
12:12:49 <ais523> Rugxulo: doesn't work because of tcsh
12:12:56 <ais523> so, the command doesn't run at all
12:13:11 <ais523> even more fun, tcsh makes it look like the error was coming from the program you're trying to run
12:13:26 <ais523> both ? and h are invalid optoins
12:13:30 <ais523> hey, that's what manpages are for!
12:13:48 <ais523> wow, I was laughing so much that tears are actually coming out of my eyes
12:14:12 * ehird hopes 7zip will work
12:14:15 <ais523> the "You mean `mcopy' ? " thing seems to come up for all DOS commands
12:14:23 <Rugxulo> 7zip cmdline or file manager?
12:14:37 <ehird> File manager; just like WinZip, I can take a brief look and hit extract. Except it won't nag me.
12:14:40 <ais523> it seems to be a misguided attempt at letting DOS people change to Linux more easily
12:14:52 <Rugxulo> hmmm, mcopy and mtype etc. must be from mtools
12:15:02 <ehird> I hope 7-Zip supports NT.
12:15:11 <ehird> NT 4 is wonderfully snappy...
12:15:23 <Rugxulo> I know Igor tried to support Win9x in the cmdline version, at least
12:15:33 <ehird> I'd have thought it be more bloated; I've read articles from the day where people noted it was slower but rock solid.
12:15:56 <Rugxulo> 1996 was P1 era (200 Mhz max), before faster machines
12:16:05 <ais523> talking about how to mount DOS floppy disks
12:16:06 <ehird> it was circa 1998 the article i read iirc
12:16:14 <ais523> which could be kind-of hard, given that the local computer has no floppy drive
12:16:17 <ehird> e.g. in a fun article where someone described making their computer, the Damage Box, containing some Celeron
12:16:21 <ais523> and I doubt I could access one on the server, if there is one there
12:16:21 <ehird> that was actually faster than P3s
12:16:35 <ehird> it talked about P3s
12:16:46 <Rugxulo> talking about isn't the same as having one
12:16:50 <ehird> also, Voodoo cards and Glide
12:17:03 <ehird> well, it may have been 1999
12:17:08 <ehird> Rugxulo: referencing benchmarks.
12:17:16 <ehird> i.e., "in practice the Celeron beats the blah blah blah"
12:17:21 <Rugxulo> P3 ranged from various speeds
12:17:37 <ehird> it mentioned models
12:17:39 <Rugxulo> I'd bet the high end ones beat the Celeron (well, they'd have to, all Celerons are half the cache, right?)
12:17:52 <ehird> the celeron overclocked to 400MHz or something
12:17:55 <ehird> which was the top PIII
12:17:59 <ehird> and outperformed it in practice almost all the time
12:18:09 <Rugxulo> but P3 eventually scaled to over 1 Ghz
12:18:25 <ehird> it was a comparison at the time, which was novel because celeron is meant to be budget
12:18:32 <ehird> re pentium pro there was another article (these were from old-school Ars Technica) praising the Pentium Pro in rather overblown terms
12:18:42 <ehird> (in like 2000, when it was rather outdated; it was more of a tribute)
12:18:50 <Rugxulo> PPro was good at 32-bit, bad at 16-bit
12:19:06 <ehird> Did You Know: ...that NT 4 was available for PowerPC for a time?
12:19:17 <ehird> Not sure, Rugxulo.
12:19:19 <ais523> NT the kernel was pretty portable
12:19:26 <ehird> did it run the gui?
12:19:29 <ais523> but Windows NT the OS wasn't
12:19:30 <Rugxulo> NT before 4 ran on like three or four arches
12:19:36 <ais523> and not sure; quite possibly it was just telnet
12:19:42 <ehird> mips, for instance
12:19:43 <ais523> which is all NT without Windows can do
12:20:04 <ehird> if you could actually run Windows NT 4 on a Mac at some point I guess it'd be bigger news then
12:20:09 <ehird> a fun thought, though
12:20:14 <ehird> considering the total program incompatibility
12:20:20 <ehird> so... er... why are you using windows???
12:20:21 <ais523> I love the way that NT is multiuser, but only one user can use the GUI at the time
12:20:23 <ais523> everyone else has to telnet
12:20:32 <ehird> makes sense, the gui is one of the three kernel components
12:20:41 <Rugxulo> at one time Apple ported Mac to run on DR-DOS (x86), but they abandoned the project later
12:20:45 <ehird> (Win32, GUI and I forget the third one)
12:20:50 <ehird> Win32, GDI and GUI
12:20:57 <ehird> are the three separate components making up the kernel
12:21:19 <Rugxulo> ehird, there were supposedly DOS 486 emulators for non-x86 NT versions
12:21:19 <ehird> well, 7zip installed hitchlessly
12:22:33 <ehird> the Windows NT shared/not shared program thing in the start menu is confusing
12:22:40 <ehird> IE is local to me but 7zip isn't
12:22:50 <ehird> and explorer is local too.
12:23:38 <Rugxulo> when did MS add .ZIP support to Explorer? 2k?
12:24:06 <ehird> and I really like it; it's nice and simple
12:24:13 <ehird> I wish there was an extension to do the same for many formats
12:24:34 <Rugxulo> you could try IZarc.org, but I'm not sure it'd work
12:24:59 <ehird> I don't mean for NT, I mean in general
12:25:01 <Rugxulo> 7-Zip does support unraring
12:25:08 <Deewiant> I don't like it, I have folders with hundreds of .zips in them and that makes the tree view on the left useless
12:25:11 <ehird> Windows ZIP support treats them as folders
12:25:25 <ehird> I know you can get programs to decompress archives.........
12:26:20 <Rugxulo> I mean for certain archive types
12:26:50 <Rugxulo> and yes, all Windows apps have to use at least KERNEL.DLL etc.
12:27:00 <ehird> "it uses .DLLs" is a completely meaningless statement
12:27:02 <Rugxulo> well, non-dual Win programs ;-)
12:27:19 <ehird> btw, what is the point of rundll32?
12:27:28 <ehird> I don't see what it does, other than execute a function in a dll like a program
12:27:33 <ehird> so uh, why not just have a program? for linkability?
12:27:41 <ehird> why not just make a stub program that links with the dll and calls it?
12:27:48 <ehird> just doesn't seem like an insanely common thing to want to me
12:28:06 <Deewiant> They were originally intended only for internal Microsoft use
12:28:26 <ehird> mwahahaha, DIE IE! DIE!
12:28:41 <ehird> Dieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
12:28:53 <ehird> i probably enjoy this too much.
12:29:17 <ehird> but totally eradicate ie on your newfangled vista thingummies, eh, eh
12:30:37 <ehird> GREYING OUT THE UNINSTALL OPTION NOW ARE WE, OLDER IE?
12:30:43 <ehird> well i'll just have to sic ieradicator on you.
12:30:48 <Rugxulo> newfangled? not as much ... Win 7 is coming this month, and Vista is 2 1/2 already
12:31:05 <ehird> Rugxulo: i'm joking
12:31:25 <Gregor> For M$, 2.5 years is a friggin' lighting-fast release cycle.
12:31:29 <ehird> but hey, vista was so long in the wait... 5 years...
12:31:36 <ehird> so vista is still pretty newfangled!
12:31:51 <ehird> longhorn builds leaked in 2004!
12:32:15 <ehird> they should probably have released longhorn in like 2005, then vista in 2008
12:32:18 <Deewiant> Before that it was less than 2 years between releases, usually
12:32:25 <ehird> the whole-huge-release-at-once reaaaaaaaaaally messed up
12:32:47 <ehird> what do you mean by hell always
12:32:53 <ehird> your sentences are unmakingsense to me!
12:33:28 <Deewiant> I said usually and then I decided that it was probably in fact always
12:33:39 <ehird> IE IS TOTALLY GONE
12:33:45 <ehird> Deewiant: what do you mean hell usually
12:33:55 <ehird> you mean upgrading so frequently?
12:34:49 <Deewiant> 2009-10-05 14:32:18 ( Deewiant) Before [Vista,] [Microsoft] [took] less than 2 years between releases [of Windows], usually
12:34:50 <ehird> whee, it wants the msimg32.dll from windows me
12:35:04 <ehird> Deewiant: Right, what's that got to do with hell
12:35:29 <Deewiant> ehird: Do you not see a comma after it?
12:35:54 <ehird> Maybe I'm dumb, but I have no idea what you're talking about at all.
12:36:28 <ehird> I thought it was, since it was, like, in a parne, like an, um, okay I fail.
12:39:44 * Rugxulo doesn't understand why they released Win98, Win98SE, WinME, and Win2k all in such a short span of time
12:40:01 <ehird> Because Win98 didn't suck enough, so they added more IE to it hastily.
12:40:22 <ehird> Then, they decided that even that was too stable, so they messed with the kernel and made drivers unstable as fuck; this important change was named Me.
12:40:26 <ais523> ehird: which is better, 98 or 98SE?
12:40:49 <ehird> Eventually someone came in who wasn't high on pot or drunk and took over, told them to make something that didn't suck based on NT 4 and 98SE, and mostly succeeded with 2k.
12:40:51 <ehird> Apart from that whole IE Explorer thing.
12:40:59 <ais523> anyway, the change in 98 was probably so they could claim IE was a fundamental part of Windows
12:41:02 <ehird> ais523: probably 98, because it had less IE
12:41:05 <ehird> but 98SE is probably more stable
12:41:06 <Rugxulo> XP is the merger of 2k and ME
12:41:09 <ehird> as both 98s were really unstable
12:41:25 <Rugxulo> 2k was never offered to home users
12:41:27 <ehird> Me was totally abandoned and left to die, because it really sucked and 2000 didn't
12:41:32 <ehird> Rugxulo: yes, but XP is purely based on 2k
12:41:59 <Rugxulo> but e.g. SB emulation in NTVDM was added for XP
12:42:00 <ehird> you forgot "fisher price's art division" :)
12:43:00 <Rugxulo> ME was left to die because nobody liked it, it was somewhat worse than 98SE (according to some people), even though it technically came out after 2000
12:43:11 <ehird> according to some people? Me sucked, man
12:43:34 <Rugxulo> well, it had some good qualities (which I forget offhand, System Restore and some other features)
12:43:37 <ehird> It was identical to 98SE but crashed much, much, much, much, MUCH more buggy, and removed the ability to shut down to DOS
12:43:48 <ehird> System Restore is useless because it restores *everything*
12:43:49 <Rugxulo> 3rd-party hack added back the DOS bit
12:43:51 <ehird> and a virus could just wipe them
12:43:58 <Rugxulo> they did that to speed up bootup, I think
12:44:01 <ehird> Rugxulo: doesn't matter; it's still a thing that Me made worse
12:44:12 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, the moon buggy.
12:44:34 <Rugxulo> I'm not saying ME wasn't worse overall, just saying it's hard to say conclusively
12:45:05 <ehird> Pretty sure I've never come across anyone apart from my father saying Me is great. (Also, it's not CAPITALISED, just as MAC isn't.)
12:45:32 <ehird> It's Windows Me: Millennium Edition
12:45:49 <ehird> you need a backwards \
12:45:59 <Rugxulo> but it wouldn't be funny then ;-)
12:46:25 <Rugxulo> no, Wii is a stupid name, Me is at least semi-reasonable
12:46:42 <ehird> Nothing wrong with the Wii name, apart from some juvenile antics
12:47:00 <Rugxulo> nothing wrong?? it's not a word, it makes no sense, etc.
12:47:05 <ehird> You mean like all names?
12:47:10 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: My point was the pronunciation
12:47:26 <ehird> It's short, it's "cute", and it's slightly odd (the double i mixes weirdly with the w). It represents the Wii perfectly well.
12:47:46 <ehird> Nobody listens to the literal meaning of a name except to make terrible puns about not needing gates in a world without windows, so who cares?
12:47:47 <Rugxulo> same as XBox 360, I don't like the name
12:48:01 <ehird> And PlayStation. I mean, what? It's not a train station or a bus station or anything.
12:48:16 <ehird> It's a box with electronics inside it, not a station of ANY KIND.
12:48:33 <Rugxulo> and Game Boy is sexist, omg
12:48:34 <ehird> GameCube? It's not a cube that is a game. STUPID.
12:48:40 <ehird> Game Boy isn't even an animal.
12:48:56 <ehird> Atari? WHAT IS AN ATARI?!
12:49:13 <ehird> IT IS A COMPUTER NOT A MOVE
12:49:19 <ehird> Amiga? It is NOT a female human, and if it was it probably wouldn't be your friend!
12:49:36 <ehird> (Opera?! It doesn't even have any fat ladies!)
12:49:49 <Rugxulo> opera is the plural of opus (Latin)
12:49:55 <ais523> atari isn't quite a move in Go
12:50:03 <ais523> it's a strategic situation, I think
12:50:05 <ehird> OPERA IS A SINGLE WORK
12:50:08 <ehird> RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH
12:50:15 <ais523> I can't remember exactly what it is, although IIRC some rulesets have to special-case it
12:50:17 <ehird> it's a very nice name, incidentally
12:50:21 <ehird> Rugxulo: unified under one project.
12:50:38 <Rugxulo> "polite way of saying check" (or something, I dunno)
12:50:52 <Deewiant> It's when a group of stones can be captured on the next move
12:51:04 <Rugxulo> "sente" is another one, I think
12:51:12 <ehird> - Fitt's law aaaaaaargh
12:51:19 <ehird> - Why isn't it recognizing my mouse wheel? It did before I installed all those updates.
12:51:23 <Rugxulo> Fitts, I thought we established ;-)
12:51:35 <ehird> It recognized it as a Mouse Port mouse, but still.
12:51:40 <ehird> (It now recognizes it as a PS/2 mouse.)
12:51:48 <Deewiant> Can't recall what sente is except that its counterpart is gote
12:52:15 <Rugxulo> BTW, worst name ever: OS/2
12:52:29 <ehird> Ooh, ooh, let's see what Flash Player I can get! EXCITING!
12:52:38 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: A follow-up from PS/2
12:52:42 <ehird> Will it blend^Wyoutube?
12:52:52 <ehird> It installed Flash 10.
12:52:58 <ehird> Flash 10 can't possibly support NT 4, can it?
12:53:22 <ehird> Wants SetFilePointerEx.
12:53:29 <Rugxulo> dunno, but there's a really small Linux distro (xPUD, 50 MB) that claims to have Flash 10 out of the box
12:53:31 <ehird> Could at least have checked the OS...
12:53:41 <ehird> Rugxulo: it'll have a recent kernel.
12:53:58 <ehird> sweet, the uninstaller errors out
12:54:05 <ehird> talk about vendor lockin
12:54:23 <ehird> hey, it disappeared but is still there
12:55:57 * Rugxulo gotta hit the dusty trail ...
12:56:45 <ehird> i think "enjoy" is too strong
12:57:12 <Rugxulo> besides, you never did try DOSBox ;-)
12:57:55 -!- Rugxulo has left (?).
12:59:46 <ehird> DOSBox doesn't work; installer fails to create start menu shortcut or Add/Remove entry, and links with SHGetSpecialFolderPathA (funnily enough, that same function although I think W not A is the reason the latest seamonkey doesn't work on win95)
13:00:38 <Deewiant> You can install the Unicode stuff for Win95 which might make that work
13:00:53 <ehird> NT supports Unicode, no?
13:01:05 <ehird> At least I can save files as Unicode in Notepad.
13:01:19 <ehird> Will the 95 stuff work, then?
13:01:29 <Deewiant> No, because you already have it
13:01:49 <ehird> No, it's the function itself not there, not the variant
13:01:53 <ehird> Both W and A don't exist in it
13:01:57 -!- FireFly has joined.
13:23:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
13:27:39 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:27:49 -!- ais523 has joined.
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13:50:51 <fizzie> Hrm, I couldn't help myself, and had to make a TI-86 port of robotfindskitten.
13:54:49 <fizzie> You don't get a fancy greyscale splash screen with TI-basic. :p
13:55:14 <fizzie> http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/rfk86/ and screen_splash.png
13:55:41 <fizzie> The picture is as-yet-without-permission lifted from the rfk "ultimate fanpage".
13:58:04 <fizzie> Oh yes. I use them in assembler files with 8-column tabs; it's sufficiently retro.
13:58:21 <fizzie> I do the whole "automatic tabs for indentation, spaces for alignment" in more.. structured languages.
13:58:58 <fizzie> And actually I think the Perl scripts in there are all four-spaces-no-tabs-at-all indented.
13:59:14 <fizzie> A bit of variety in indentation styles is good for the soul.
13:59:32 <ehird> | rfk86 v0.1.f8e11a0b3b0e39addfc8a0316bc5b21fa8a26ec6 |
13:59:45 <ehird> | How to Compile It (if You have the Source Package) |
13:59:45 <fizzie> That's the Git tag object hash there in the version. :p
13:59:50 <ehird> Ohh, you need the source to compile it?
14:00:33 <ais523> nah, you can compile it directly from the binary
14:00:42 <ais523> (quines need more love...)
14:01:17 <ehird> fizzie: how are you so cool to do that in like two days.
14:01:24 <ehird> i need more motivation :|
14:02:51 <fizzie> That's more like three days. Though admittedly I spent one day fiddling with a deflate decompressor, got it half-way done (it builds the dynamic Huffman trees from the deflate code-length format) then decided to screw it and just embed the ~20k of message data as-is; I mean, who cares if it eats ~24k of the 96k of memory available for storing programs in the TI-86?
14:03:29 <ehird> Screeeeeeeeeeeew you. Maybe I should learn TI-86 assembly so I can be a cool kid.
14:03:39 <ehird> Or maybe HP CALCULATOR REVERSE POLISH LISP.
14:03:43 <ehird> I don't think that can do graphics though.
14:03:45 <fizzie> Deewiant: Hey, when you have rfk86, what else do you need in your calculator?
14:04:22 <ehird> fizzie: you should make the version number the sha-1 of every file tarred, including the file with the version number
14:04:34 <ehird> use that ioccc entry to do it :P
14:04:37 <fizzie> Deewiant: Anyway, 19k of that is the uncompressed messages, and ~2.4k more is uncompressed bitmaps. When I am lazy, I really *am* lazy.
14:04:50 <ehird> There are that many messages
14:05:13 <fizzie> There are somewhat over 400 of them, yes.
14:05:15 <ehird> Gah; anyone know how to turn off that stupid Gecko caret that positions when you click text?
14:05:43 <Deewiant> die "aieee, wrapping problem: $msg" if $break < 0;
14:05:53 <ehird> [[It's a blatant plug for Ogg Vorbis, http://www.vorbis.com/]]
14:06:08 <ehird> Clearly we need a robotfindskitten variant played entirely with ear and microphone.
14:06:16 <fizzie> Deewiant: Right, that shouldn't happen; and it won't unless you mess with messages.txt.
14:06:34 <fizzie> Deewiant: Admittedly it could be "return $msg" instead of "die" there, I just wanted to see if it actually happens.
14:06:36 -!- ais523_ has joined.
14:06:39 <Deewiant> How many messages did you have to remove to make that pass? ;-)
14:06:52 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:06:57 <ehird> Don't you have to add INT_MAX-408
14:07:03 <ehird> I haven't read that code, I'm just guessing
14:07:04 <fizzie> None, they're all there. It would only trigger if you had a 32-character no-whitespace sequence in a message.
14:07:28 <ehird> so does this thing work on a real ti-83
14:07:41 <fizzie> TI-86; there was a TI-83+ port already.
14:07:50 <ehird> Almost identical, no?
14:07:59 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
14:07:59 <ehird> | By John Charroux
14:07:59 <ehird> | This is a version of the Inform port (.z5 relase
14:07:59 <ehird> | 6) converted with the inf2d64 utility to
14:08:00 <ehird> | Commodore 64 disk format.
14:08:06 <ehird> OK, that's just ridiculous
14:08:14 <Deewiant> But I presume fizzie already did
14:08:35 * ehird considers writing rfk in Plain English
14:08:38 <fizzie> Deewiant: Emulated only; the reason is in the README.txt.
14:08:55 <Deewiant> I hope the kittens didn't get a stomachache
14:09:08 <ehird> Are you actually obligated to fashion the piece?
14:09:17 <ehird> I'M NOT SURE THAT'S FREE AS IN FREEDOM.
14:09:31 <fizzie> ehird: I don't know how laws work. I guess it's what they call a moral duty.
14:09:47 <ehird> it hasn't been ported to an fpga yet :(
14:14:42 <fizzie> TI-86 was the only "computer" I had that didn't already run it, I think. (Since the "POSIX" version just needs curses, and therefore probably runs on all "real computers", and the j2me version is midp-1-only so it works even on the crummy N-gage.)
14:15:29 <ehird> Let's see... I'd need an iPhone version (I guess I could use a terminal emulator), a gamecube version, a gameboy advance version, an ipod version (rockbox can play doom!)...
14:15:35 <ehird> old ipod that is, greyscale
14:15:58 <ehird> oh, there's that shitty nokia dumbphone. doubt that could run anything
14:16:07 <ehird> oh, and something that can run on mac os 9.
14:16:17 <ehird> guess that exists though
14:16:19 <ehird> oh, plus something for my router.
14:16:28 <ehird> i think that covers it
14:16:49 <ehird> apart from the obvious boring linux and stuff
14:17:14 <fizzie> Well, I have the network disk server and the WLAN access point, too, but since those are just embedded Linux systems, I'm sure you could mangle the original sources in there with a bit of work; not so interesting.
14:17:36 <ehird> Same for my router.
14:17:47 <ehird> And probably iPhone with a terminal emulator.
14:18:07 <fizzie> I'm a bit surprised there's no flashy iPhone version yet, though; there's Android and Maemo (though those are pretty recent).
14:18:37 <ehird> You can never find zen with an iPhone. That's why Steve Jobs, a Buddhist, is trying to kill the App Store with awful policies.
14:18:45 <ehird> He realised what a terrible, terrible crime he has committed.
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14:27:53 <ehird> i still had my force field of dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooom
14:28:09 <oerjan> well then you are doomed, then. how tragic.
14:30:08 <ehird> how tragic? well personally i think it's magic
14:30:51 <oerjan> magic is tragic. everytime i dream of doing magic, it ends up going wrong.
14:30:59 <fizzie> Draaaaaa-gon, draaaaaa-gon; something reminded me of the chanting conspiracisists in the Discworld game.
14:31:05 <oerjan> it's almost a recurring dream, but with variations
14:31:21 <oklopol> would rhyme better with "i end up doing a fat chick"
14:31:43 <oerjan> this night, i ended up being stuck at shrunk to 2 m - usual size
14:31:51 <ehird> that juxtaposition
14:32:01 <ehird> <oklopol> would rhyme better with "i end up doing a fat chick"
14:32:02 <ehird> <oerjan> this night, i ended up being stuck at shrunk to 2 m - usual size
14:32:27 <oerjan> (well, for a value of night ~~ about half an hour ago)
14:32:28 <oklopol> there's a reason they call it a "cod piece"
14:35:12 <fizzie> oklopol: Sounds *fishy*, eh-eh-eh-eh-eh-eee...
14:35:22 <oklopol> i'm not sure about the details, but you know, norwegian dudes have massive cocks, and they like cod.
14:35:23 <ehird> it's the fish fish magic dance
14:35:33 <oklopol> the massive cock thing being the juxtaposition ehird mentioned
14:35:50 <ehird> i wasn't intending to make that reference.
14:36:02 <oklopol> i don't care what you intended
14:36:08 <ehird> SORRY OKLOPOL MAYBE YOU READ YOUR EFFENZCXZIALOZIATION INTO THE WORLD
14:36:44 <oerjan> well it may be massive, but 2m - usual size would still not count as "shrunk"
14:37:07 <oklopol> if that is shrinking, your penis must be over 1m
14:37:19 <oerjan> indeed it would have to be
14:37:58 <oerjan> anyway this was a dream... it could have been
14:38:52 <ehird> how many flautists are present for the......................
14:39:01 <oerjan> oh wait it was 3m - usual size, i think. it's a bit unclear but i felt like a dwarf, not a lilliputian
14:39:36 <oklopol> 3m - your size is not a dwarf
14:39:43 <ehird> "oh wait it was 3m - usual size, i think"
14:40:01 <oklopol> well, i guess it's close to it
14:40:10 <oerjan> 1.18 m is not a dwarf?
14:40:23 <ehird> a 3 meter penis size is a dwarf in finland?
14:40:35 <ehird> DON'T BLAME ME OKLOPOL CORRUPTED MY MIND
14:42:04 <ehird> what are yall talking about
14:42:21 <oerjan> last i measured. which admittedly was many years ago. i may indeed have shrunk.
14:42:37 <ehird> (a, comedy option) jesus christ
14:42:44 <ehird> (b) i always imagined you as short.
14:42:53 <ehird> i think it's because you're inoffensive.
14:43:07 <oklopol> oerjan: i think i confused 160 and 180 in my head, they taste very similar
14:43:21 <ehird> now that's a new kind of synasthewhateveria
14:43:25 <oklopol> they are friends, so to speak
14:43:45 <ais523> <thue> It definitively does not cost $17 to server 3 gluon-bits (gb) to a customer.
14:43:51 <ais523> it was an idiotic quote, that's why I was pasting it
14:43:54 <ais523> but now I've noticed the username
14:43:59 <ais523> probably a coincidence
14:44:35 <ehird> gluon-bits? is he trying to be funny by misunderstanding "gb"?
14:45:30 <ehird> what's the context?
14:45:32 <ais523> especially has he uses "GiB" later in the same comment
14:45:45 <ais523> and the context is manufacturers charging $17 P&P for free upgrades to Windows 7
14:45:52 <ais523> strangely, this appears to be not Microsoft's fault this time
14:45:57 <ais523> just greedy PC manufacturers
14:46:14 <oerjan> ehird: well maybe he is commenting on capitalization?
14:46:31 <ehird> thue sounds like one of those people who uses ``quotes like these'', always adds the nose to their emoticons and uses a lot of retarded Jargon File terminology
14:46:34 <ehird> probably uses emacs
14:46:44 <ehird> I'm wildly stereotyping here, but that's the vibe I got
14:47:28 <oerjan> ehird: does he have a cat or a dog?
14:47:49 <ehird> if anything, one cat.
14:48:07 <ehird> he also probably has a disdain for laptops - ok, I'm really going off the deep end here
14:49:14 * oerjan used to add a nose to emoticons, but you have corrupted me
14:49:43 <ehird> oh, I do it quite a lot, but not all the time
14:49:48 <oerjan> which means this guy is _my complete opposite_. well, if i had a dog.
14:50:12 <ehird> in comparison with the other personality traits of this archetype, though, it just gives off the snooty-person-with-dirty-unkempt-beard
14:51:00 <ehird> I'm tired of all this yabba jabba about ESO-os
14:51:07 <ehird> i'ma make a new source tree
14:51:12 <oerjan> and i don't have a beard either. the plot thickens!
14:52:45 <oerjan> kerning on in the kernel
14:55:32 <ehird> now where's that enlightening forum thread
14:55:41 <ehird> i've got some metasemantics on the fuckin' x86 to do
14:56:33 <ehird> ais523: you like ESO, don't you?
14:56:39 <oerjan> i nev *hit by falling anvil*
14:57:11 <ehird> good! then be unexcited, because i am be king of vaporware
14:58:33 <oerjan> Deewiant: they're snotty and impolite
14:59:00 <ehird> ais523: i meant the eso os btw
14:59:51 <oerjan> AnMaster: she already _said_ she was going to betray them. how stupid can you get? :D
15:00:35 <oerjan> it's a pun on reverse polish notation, and polish sausage
15:00:38 <ais523> although EsoOS or whatever is probably good for unambiguating
15:00:47 <ehird> AnMaster: it's a reference to geek culture
15:00:49 <ehird> INSTANT HILARIOUS LAUGHTER
15:01:02 <oerjan> ehird: synthesized laughter
15:01:17 <AnMaster> ehird, oh that is supposed to be "bun saussage in"?
15:01:56 <oerjan> AnMaster: overanalyzing. it's just the position of bun and sausage that are reversed
15:02:15 <ehird> sausage is an operator
15:02:18 <ehird> ( and ), the bun, are arguments
15:02:22 <ehird> ( sausage ) is calling sausage with ( and )
15:02:36 <ehird> in case you haven't realised yet IT'S NOT A JOKE, it's a shitty unfunny reference
15:02:37 <ehird> like 90% of recent xkcds
15:03:03 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed I'm aware of this.
15:15:44 <ehird> Six word NT 4 review: 95, doesn't crash, configuration little awkwarder.
15:16:33 <ehird> Bonus five-word additional review: Maximum DirectX 3 = forget non-retro-games.
15:19:55 <ehird> ok, crazy ESO idea: think one-time pads, but for obscurity, not security
15:20:17 <ehird> no single thing can know all the state of the system, even if it talks to another that knows the bit it's missing
15:20:46 <ehird> thus, no kernel is possible; every object has to govern a set of neighbour objects and with the whole of them, the entire system is accounted for
15:21:31 <ehird> hopefully, this isn't just a constraint coded in, but actually done cryptographically, so that it could not be subverted by e.g. exploited the OS code
15:25:39 <Ilari> Language with classes that can be instantiated as objects. The only ways to obtain reference to another object is to either be that object, create that object yourself, or receive reference in message from some object that already has it. All system resources are represented by objects (main method is called with message containg all sorts of system resources).
15:26:05 <ehird> Eh, that's boring; if you become chums with the other objects you can see the whole system.
15:26:15 <ehird> Plus, that just sounds like an exokernel to me.
15:26:59 <ehird> The idea I have would be the little neighbourhood dictatorships of kernelling objects compete to complete certain tasks, and other neighbourhoods work to make them collide in a way to produce what they want,e tc.
15:27:18 <ehird> So the whole system is a war of object-dictatorship-neighbourhoods that cannot know all the others.
15:27:55 <ehird> Bonus: Two objects might be given the same object to dictate, and they'll have to figure out why it's changing from underneath them and change the object to boot out the other kernel.
15:29:40 <Ilari> If those objects are implemented at "hardware" level, and "peripherals" show up as objects too, such system would not need supervisor mode.
15:32:33 <ehird> I like the idea of having to work your way up the rung just to get to certain parts of the system.
15:32:43 <ehird> It'd be like a game you play by writing programs into the OS.
15:34:28 <ais523> hmm... it would be rather like being involved in a codenomic
15:34:38 <ais523> except all the time, and you have to scam your way up
15:35:33 <ehird> system objects would be written with different tactics; sure, they'd have a job to do, but they'd have to fight other groups, bully their own pilgrim objects (that may themselves have similar plots), fight off any maliciousness in *their* kernel, ...
15:41:33 -!- coppro has quit ("I am leaving. You are about to explode.").
15:48:18 <ais523> wow, there are actually people in ##language-holy-wars
15:48:59 -!- oerjan has quit ("So you scared them away?").
15:49:42 <ais523> because it was linked in #nethack
15:51:03 <ehird> ok, i must admit that NT 4 is very nice
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16:11:24 <ehird> I delete one registry item and suddenly... menus are opening without the delay first.
16:11:29 <ehird> What. Put that back god dammit. It's irritating.
16:14:38 <AnMaster> ehird, not odd that messing in the registry causes settings to change
16:14:50 <AnMaster> unless of course the key was completely unrelated
16:14:57 <ehird> The entry was a key relating a program executable name to a path.
16:15:15 <ehird> It had to do with enabling buttons 4 and 5 on a Microsoft mouse, which I don't have.
16:15:20 <ehird> So yeah WHAT THE FLYING FUCKING SHIT.
16:15:21 <AnMaster> can't say I see how it would affect menu delay indeed
16:15:36 <AnMaster> unless it also happens to handle menu delay
16:15:38 <ehird> Maybe the mouse driver chooses when to send the "show menu event". That would be (a) exciting (b) retarde.d
16:15:57 <ehird> AnMaster: Just tried it.
16:16:09 <AnMaster> ehird, changing it back fixes it?!
16:16:26 <ehird> I ran the background program in question (point32) and it fixed itself.
16:16:37 <ehird> So, time to uninstall those drivers, reinstall them, and accept the tiny little process in the background.
16:16:48 <ehird> It's just that the scroll wheel worked without it running, so I assumed I didn't need it...
16:17:19 <ehird> AnMaster: At least it (v3) beats the v4 of the same drivers; they require IE 4 for god knows what reason.
16:17:57 <AnMaster> I bet the control panel requires IE or something
16:18:06 <ehird> It's how you get scroll wheels working in 95/NT4.
16:18:25 <ehird> Anyway, at least NT 4 is stable enough that I can mess around with stuff like that and then put it back together as it was without breaking things.
16:18:54 <AnMaster> I probably said it before.... but: MS mice are actually very comfortable. That is about the only think microsoft did well IMO.
16:19:05 <ehird> Apparently their ergonomic keyboards are good too.
16:19:23 <AnMaster> ehird, no opinion on that due to not having tried those
16:19:47 <AnMaster> anyway microsoft should really switch to develop HID stuff. And leave the software to companies like Apple.
16:19:47 <ehird> I currently use a bog-standard shiny-black two-buttons-and-a-clickable-wheel wireless (USB dongle) Logitech mouse.
16:20:03 <ehird> Can HID handle 5 remappable buttons
16:20:07 <ehird> For things like games.
16:20:14 <ehird> Remappable at driver leve.
16:20:30 <AnMaster> um HID is a generic sort of interface
16:20:31 <ehird> I thought you meant
16:20:35 <ehird> The HID specification
16:20:39 <ehird> as opposed to human interface devices
16:20:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I meant human interface devices in general
16:20:48 <ehird> like, "MS stop writing drivers, let Apple write them"
16:20:53 <ehird> which is a bizarre sentiment...
16:21:16 <AnMaster> but yes the spec should be able to handle 5 buttons I believe
16:21:30 <ehird> Yes, but remappable before the game gets to them?
16:21:34 <AnMaster> what with a 36-button joystick of mine showing up as a HID device
16:21:48 <ehird> No way you can possible make use of all those.
16:22:01 <AnMaster> ehird, throttle+joystick shows up as one HID device
16:22:27 <ehird> (Fun fact: There is a C:\WINNT\Profiles\Administrator with the desktop and stuff and a "Personal" folder, yet the home path is set to C:\...)
16:22:41 <ehird> (This applies to every other user too; we all call C:\ home sweet home.)
16:22:46 <AnMaster> 10 axis in total I think. Or was it 12? Anyway two of them are for one of the hat switches for example.
16:22:55 <ehird> Oh, axis don't count as proper buttons :P
16:22:58 <AnMaster> oh and buttons. Some are one button that can be flipped in more than one way
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16:23:09 <ehird> I was thinking 36 actual push buttons
16:23:11 <ehird> which is beyond useless
16:23:12 <AnMaster> ehird, none of those 36 *are* axis
16:23:19 <ehird> take a picture of this thing.
16:23:52 <ehird> http://www.ozhardware.com.au/images/stories/review_images/Input%20Devices/Saitek%20X52%20Pro/x52top.jpg
16:24:01 <AnMaster> oh and one of the hats shows up as 4 buttons, the other hat shows up as two axis
16:24:01 <ehird> i don't really see 36 buttons there.
16:24:04 <ehird> or any spot where there could be
16:24:18 <ehird> anyway, how much does this thing cost.
16:24:22 <AnMaster> ehird, on the base of the joystick there are three buttons. that can be moved up/down
16:24:27 <AnMaster> one button for up, another for down
16:24:41 <ehird> doesn';t count as an actual button :P
16:24:45 <AnMaster> so yeah not 36 *physical* buttons. But 36 in HID
16:24:50 <AnMaster> which is what I said all along
16:24:57 <ehird> Ho many physical buttons?
16:25:20 <AnMaster> ehird, as for cost, no idea. was on wishlist for bday present a few years ago.
16:25:41 <ehird> prolly like 200 quid looking at the size of it
16:25:42 <AnMaster> ehird, hard to define. for example the "trigger" has two levels (shows up as two buttons)
16:25:48 <AnMaster> like press it half way in, press it fully in
16:26:05 <ehird> that is the question
16:26:18 <ehird> hmm i become more stupid whenever oklopol talks
16:26:36 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and see the blank metal wheel on the top of the joystick? that is a three choice button.
16:26:45 <AnMaster> shows up as "always one of a set of three pressed"
16:26:56 <AnMaster> so a bit hard to say how many physical ones
16:27:14 <AnMaster> ehird, it all depends on what you count as a button
16:27:16 * ehird wonders why MS thinks I need a start menu folder for their mouse
16:28:02 <AnMaster> or like an uninstaller link or such too?
16:28:51 <AnMaster> ehird, btw that joystick uses the hall effect rather than potentiometers for the joystick itself (I think the throttle uses a pot, not sure)
16:28:53 <ehird> Microsoft Hardware -> Mouse -> Healthy Computing Guide, IntelliPoint (opens the Mouse control panel, which has button configuration stuff if you have the drivers installed), Online User's Guide (online as in Windows Help). c:\winnt\profiles\all users\start menu\programs\... click... <del>... zzap
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16:29:39 <ehird> I like how my system is emulating a Soundblaster 16 for NT.
16:31:45 <ehird> NT seems to be where they really redesigned Windows and had it working stably, fast, securely and with good backwards-compatibility. I wonder why it went downhill a bit.
16:35:44 <AnMaster> ehird, btw about sound, I can't get sound to work with windows 7 in virtualbox
16:35:58 <ehird> What soundcard are you emulating; AC97?
16:36:22 <AnMaster> I forgot to enable it at install time, and enabling after doesn't work
16:36:33 <ehird> Put in the Win7 CD before doing it.
16:36:41 <ehird> If that fails, uber-lazy fix: Tell it to emulate a Soundblaster 16 instead, then check again.
16:36:45 <ehird> If that fails: Dig for the driver on the CD.
16:41:20 <AnMaster> ehird, windows xp starts in about 20 seconds from hitting start vm to that it is up and running
16:41:27 <AnMaster> windows 7 takes maybe a minute
16:41:38 <ehird> That 20 second figure is wrong; XP isn't that fast.
16:41:39 <AnMaster> up and running = login window displayed and actually responds to input
16:41:49 <AnMaster> ehird, checked with stop watch
16:42:01 <ehird> Well, install them on real hardware instea.
16:42:14 <ehird> Win7 boots up faster for me, subjectively at least.
16:42:40 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't find any usb disk that was large enough for windows 7
16:42:52 <ehird> A USB stick would take *several* minutes to start up; they are horrifically slow.
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16:48:55 <AnMaster> ehird, for locating driver. what manufacture would it be for AC97...
16:49:10 <ehird> Um, none. AC'97 is a standard. Intel, I guess.
16:49:19 <ehird> But seriously, just make it SB16 and be lazy
16:49:20 <AnMaster> looked in generic and intel hm
16:50:13 <ehird> Of course it is; it was even supported in 95.
16:50:21 <ehird> The SB16 is the lowest common denominator.
16:50:33 <AnMaster> ehird, I wouldn't be surprised if they dropped support for outdated hardware
16:50:54 <ehird> For the Soundblaster 16? That card is *everything*.
16:50:56 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:53:50 <ehird> Hmm, they reesigne http://mozilla.org/. Now it looks like a socialist political site.
16:55:15 <ais523> ehird: is your d key broken?
16:55:26 <ais523> "reesigne" seems like a ridiculous typo to manage without something like that
16:55:31 <ehird> I may be unaware of its current position in 3 space.
16:55:44 <ehird> I shoul coe ESO like this.
16:56:00 <ais523> wow, I almost choked then
16:56:06 <ais523> don't talk like that while I'm drinking water
16:58:17 <Deewiant> http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/10/conservapdia_has_a_new_project.php sweet
16:58:36 <ehird> it's not new, quite a few timelengths ol actually
16:58:45 <ehird> ais523: that : was meant to be ecks-ee by the way
16:59:27 <ehird> it was meant to say :-that-letter
16:59:48 <ais523> Deewiant: the subject of that article is ridiculous
16:59:58 <ais523> and the article itself is quite good at pointing out the ridiculousness
17:00:05 <ehird> or more simply: 'that's riiculous"
17:01:41 <ais523> the theory seems to be that the current translations of the Bible are obviously wrong due to not being sufficiently conservative, thus they must have been mistranslated or otherwise reported incorrectly
17:01:55 <Deewiant> Socialistic terminology permeates English translations of the Bible, without justification. This improperly encourages the "social justice" movement among Christians.
17:01:58 <Deewiant> For example, the conservative word "volunteer" is mentioned only once in the ESV, yet the socialistic word "comrade" is used three times, "laborer(s)" is used 13 times, "labored" 15 times, and "fellow" (as in "fellow worker") is used 55 times.
17:02:23 <Deewiant> -- http://conservapedia.com/Conservative_Bible_Project
17:03:21 <ehird> Bonus: My key is sporaic
17:03:34 <ehird> fuck this fucking piece of shit broken-ass keyboar
17:06:44 <ehird> someone buy me a as keyboar or something
17:07:12 <AnMaster> ehird, no luck at all with sb 16. Doesn't even show up as a missing device
17:08:42 <ais523> "volunteer" is conservative?
17:08:50 <ais523> but... that's people doing things for no money, it'll collapse the economy
17:12:12 <oklopol> "liberals will oppose this effort, but they will have to read the Bible to criticize this, and that will open their minds"
17:12:38 <oklopol> it's like they're constantly making fun of themselves
17:13:21 <ais523> I'm wondering if it's a splinter group formed by the people who joined conservapedia just to troll
17:13:27 <ais523> and have been good at not being found out so far
17:13:45 <ais523> (statistically speaking, we can expect at least one thus-far-undetected conservapedia troll)
17:18:00 <ais523> wow, there's a Windows version of Evince?
17:18:18 <ais523> reading random reddit comments has paid off!
17:18:42 <ehird> whats the avantage over sumatra
17:19:32 <ais523> sumatra has, for me at least, rounded the widths of lines down from less than half a pixel to 0 pixels
17:19:35 <ehird> mupfvff has better winows support than poppler, oesn't it
17:19:38 <ais523> which renders them rather difficult to see
17:20:21 <AnMaster> ehird, wow this is retarded, the windows 7 cd autorun thing offers me to upgrade windows 7 to windows 7 XD
17:20:40 <ehird> it offers that regarless o harf frive space
17:20:54 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I could see reinstall, but not upgrade
17:21:23 <ehird> it' ofer to upgrae fr-fos
17:21:36 <ais523> http://download.gnome.org/binaries/win32/evince/2.28/evince-2.28.0.msi
17:21:53 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway no luck with sb16. At least AC97 shows that the device exists
17:21:55 <ais523> next issue: I'd need Wine to actually check that it works
17:21:58 <ehird> ya think it works on 16
17:22:00 <ais523> which seems rather counterintuitive
17:30:01 <ehird> btw, anyone with an nt-erive winows: wtf is %winir%\clock?
17:30:53 <AnMaster> ehird, the dvd doesn't contain the data. It contains an opaque install.wim with all the stuff in
17:31:06 <AnMaster> $ file /mnt/iso/sources/install.wim
17:31:06 <AnMaster> /mnt/iso/sources/install.wim: data
17:31:15 <ehird> eewiant: a the forbien letter an a fffffile extension
17:31:16 <AnMaster> and there are no other candidates for install data
17:32:38 <ehird> well, here's my C:\WINNT\clock.avi: http://filebin.ca/cwn{THAT LETTER I CAN'T TYPE COMING AFTER C}ww
17:33:00 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, ehird can't type d
17:33:06 <ais523> ehird: put one on the clipboard
17:33:09 <ais523> and type it with control-C
17:33:19 <ehird> An ffff is sporaic, so I have to hol it own, making me a fnake!
17:33:42 <ehird> ais523: but I copy things all the time
17:33:56 <ais523> vi has a good solution to this problem
17:34:16 <ais523> except, trying to use vim with a broken d key would be a pain
17:34:26 <ehird> what's the solution?
17:34:48 <ehird> OMG OMG OMG chm files work
17:34:50 <ehird> that means I still have IE
17:35:21 <ais523> ehird: multiple clipboards, each with a different keyboard shortcut to copy to and paste from it
17:35:29 <ais523> well, with the typical vi equivalent of a keyboard shortcut
17:36:38 <ehird> okay RELAX elliott, we can fin the lls
17:37:09 <ehird> i wish "completely obliterate IE" returne more google results
17:38:45 * ais523 wonders how many keys would have to break before ehird's IRC-speech would be completely unintelligible
17:38:58 <ehird> well let's see, with science
17:39:02 <ehird> I will pop off two keys now
17:39:21 <ais523> why are you mutilating your own keyboard?
17:39:21 <ehird> hello goo chaps, how are ou toa?
17:39:28 <ehird> ais523: the caps fit bac on
17:39:42 <ehird> unless the're broen, or whatever, lie f ans that letter after c
17:40:02 <ehird> still coherent? just preten i'm run|<.
17:40:09 <ehird> oh go leetspea what have i one
17:42:05 <ehird> time ffffffor two more
17:42:09 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:42:36 <ehird> hhhhhhhgggggggggggggggg5444444444444444
17:43:01 <ehird> ais523: goo moning ameica!
17:43:23 <ehird> Well, I thin fo the OS achitecute we nee bas secisions ans a capp ilesustem
17:43:59 <ehird> Am I maing an sot of bague sene?
17:44:53 <ais523> you are making a sort of vague sense, though
17:45:12 <ehird> Bagel ecisions, cleal.
17:45:18 <ehird> But es, ba sessicions.
17:45:45 <ehird> Oa, I'm so incompehsible that I'ma o one tei at a time.
17:45:48 <ais523> really, you just need one decision that's so monumentally bad it forces the rest of the OS back into line
17:45:56 <ehird> Since I'm hitting the limits of the English language.
17:46:01 <ehird> HOL FUCING SHIT ^^^^
17:46:21 <ais523> which keys do you have left?
17:46:31 <ehird> qwetuiopasfghjlzxcbnm
17:46:32 <ais523> (I'd ask which you'd removed, but you might find it hard to answer...)
17:46:42 <ehird> I thin I'll tae one off!
17:47:29 <ehird> So, in this postmoenist soiet, we neef eso OSs to ensue exonomi stabilit.
17:48:09 <ehird> Feathe is a language about weteoatibe xhanges to the intepete, itself wtieen in Feathe.
17:48:24 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:48:40 <AnMaster> <ehird> Bagel ecisions, cleal. <-- some kind of bred isn't it?
17:49:00 <ais523> actually... I think the way it works is, that the interp isn't originally written in Feather
17:49:03 <ais523> but improvements to it are
17:49:08 <ehird> Goos motning amuixa!
17:49:08 <ais523> such that the interp ends up mostly in Feather
17:49:25 <ais523> ehird: it's a testament to the amount of redundancy in English that I actually understand that
17:50:36 <ehird> Owthogonal is a Bfung-stil languag wiht subual ogg fituis, inxluing gaphis pogamming.
17:51:09 <ehird> That's "Su_" fom abo.
17:51:28 <ehird> with two ltt missing
17:51:32 <AnMaster> ehird, remove all keys except 0 and 1
17:51:47 <ehird> ais523: I am still ompwhinsibl?
17:52:07 <AnMaster> ehird, are you using a "hit nearest key" algorithm?
17:52:23 <ais523> although it took me a few secnods for that one
17:52:32 <ehird> Im tping aht-bff smms to aptu th wssnx bst.
17:53:12 <AnMaster> <ehird> Im tping aht-bff smms to aptu th wssnx bst. <-- "I'm typing ??? sms to ??? the wessex best"?
17:53:33 <AnMaster> err I think that is "wessex" even
17:53:51 <ais523> "capture the essence", I think
17:53:55 <fizzie> Gah, the rfk86 thing doesn't work with the same emulator here at home; though it's with the 1.6 ROM, but still.
17:53:55 <ehird> Im tping Wat-abbw.
17:54:08 <ais523> <ehird> I'm typing what-ever seems to capture the essence best.
17:54:21 <ehird> I habw what, atuall.
17:54:44 <fizzie> AnMaster: TI-86, of course. Weren't you here when I babbled about what I wrote? Hmm, maybe not.
17:54:45 <ais523> ehird: this would be a great conversation for people to walk into the middle of
17:55:13 <ehird> ais523: Anoth? :-)
17:55:16 <fizzie> Today at around 15 your time.
17:55:23 <ehird> I am still ompwhsnibl?
17:55:35 <ais523> I have to think, though
17:55:47 <AnMaster> ehird, that phrase "ompwhsnibl" is quite because you asked the same question a few times now
17:55:52 <ais523> it's no longer habit-reading, it's like reading before you've learnt to read
17:56:17 <ais523> on your third statement
17:56:40 <ehird> So. Jow aw u luqi lot?
17:56:40 <ais523> AnMaster: what habitually follows "hello" in programs?
17:56:51 <ais523> ehird: you got rid of "h" too/
17:56:55 <ais523> and I'm fine, thank yo
17:57:04 <AnMaster> ais523, how can "lx" be anywhere nere "rd"?
17:57:11 <ehird> ais523: Wjat I sai?
17:57:19 <ais523> AnMaster: it's closer to "rld"
17:57:24 <ehird> AnMaster: x = substitut onsonant
17:57:26 <ais523> ehird's been using x to substitute for arbitrary plosives
17:57:37 <ais523> or possibly consonants in general
17:57:54 <ehird> Wjat I sai: "Jow aw u luqi lot"?
17:58:01 <AnMaster> <ehird> So. Jow aw u luqi lot? <-- something about Lugi. Or maybe Mario?
17:58:01 <ais523> "How are you lucky lot?"
17:58:25 <AnMaster> whoa that was quite a few lines at once
17:58:43 <AnMaster> everything from "<ais523> AnMaster: it's closer to "rld"" to "<ais523> So what?" arrived in one go
17:58:49 <ais523> (I need to get a script to do that response... I do it far too often)
17:59:39 <ais523> whoops, I accidentally inverse-videod the window
17:59:41 <ais523> you have to love Compiz
17:59:43 <ehird> Wi all plai tja Wii; tju most mi-uxpumnt fuanxli gaming sistwm!
18:00:09 <ehird> (Bit awx, but xiabl.)
18:00:10 <ais523> "We all play the Wii; the most ? family gaming system!"
18:00:13 <AnMaster> ais523, what the heck. Why even have a feature for it
18:00:20 <ais523> "mi-uxpumnt" is fooling me atm
18:00:24 <ais523> AnMaster: to make it easier to read
18:00:27 <ehird> ais523: No @ famili
18:00:44 <AnMaster> Famicom? wasn't that like NES for japan or such?
18:00:47 <ehird> Ponounx fuanxli, wxagg. tj "ua"
18:01:19 <ais523> still doesn't explain the "mi-uxpumnt", though
18:01:22 <ehird> Mi uxpumunt: ponounx
18:01:38 <ais523> "uxpumunt" = "experiment"?
18:01:42 <ais523> that doesnt' seem to fit
18:01:54 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, in German
18:02:02 <ais523> and it fits a lot better with the letters ehird has left
18:02:44 <ehird> Fwtx is a languag wit mani tim taxwl pagoxws! It is fun.
18:02:59 <AnMaster> ehird, fwtx first made me think of fthang...
18:03:08 <ais523> "Feather is a language with meany time travel paradoxes!"
18:03:09 <AnMaster> no clue what it is supposed to be though
18:03:19 <ais523> and I don't need to translate the bit after the !
18:03:30 <ais523> hmm... this is probably a very good way to speak in a way that only native speakers can understand
18:03:32 <ehird> (Xjit sligtli; u no Fwtx so pix out tj ualaxant fax.)
18:03:37 <ais523> simply because we have more redundancy
18:04:24 <AnMaster> I was typing on another keyboard than I thought I did
18:04:26 <ais523> ehird: well, it's hard not to cheat in this sort of situation
18:04:29 <ehird> (Xjit sligtli; u no Fwtx so pix out tj ualaxant fax.)
18:04:30 <ais523> AnMaster: what was the tab-complete for?
18:04:51 <AnMaster> ais523, I already had ais523 tab completed and was going to write something else
18:05:00 <ais523> "(Cheat slightly; you know Feather so pick out the relevant facts)"
18:05:04 <AnMaster> but I forgot what keyboard I was on
18:05:28 <AnMaster> assuming you droped 6 and 4 that is
18:05:40 * ais523 wonders if ehird still has numbers
18:05:45 <ehird> Fowbixxin xowil o not xowil? Tipinxs!
18:05:46 <ais523> he clearly has at least common punctuation marks
18:05:59 <AnMaster> <ehird> Fowbixxin xowil o not xowil? Tipinxs! <-- what ?
18:06:09 <ais523> the first word is clearly "forbidden"
18:06:22 <ais523> although "Tipinxs" could be "typing"
18:06:33 <ehird> Tjin abat xontaxt!
18:06:53 <AnMaster> I wouldn't have managed it with "Tjinq"
18:06:56 <ehird> i: fowbixxin. Xowil o not xowil?
18:07:18 <AnMaster> <ehird> i: fowbixxin. Xowil o not xowil? <-- something about "to be or not to be"?
18:07:49 <AnMaster> though "to be" doesn't fir there
18:07:53 <ehird> It tipinxs wjatja owbixxin latta is xowil o not xowil.
18:08:10 <ehird> Somtims xowil. Somtims not xowil. Xontaxt xjanjis it.
18:08:41 <ehird> I was just alping AnMast gugux it
18:08:54 <AnMaster> also ais523 didn't say what it was above
18:08:59 <ehird> iai: ais got it bifow
18:09:09 <ais523> nah, I'm letting you struggle
18:09:30 <ais523> AnMaster: "Iai" = "Yay"
18:09:30 <ehird> <ais523> "yay", I expect
18:09:31 <AnMaster> so not going to talk in here for a bit
18:09:45 <ehird> Somtims xowil. Somtims not xowil. Fowbixxn, so "i".
18:11:06 <AnMaster> wait what it seems like 64-bit files on win64 are in c:\windows\system32
18:11:27 <ais523> I still don't get "xowil", though
18:11:38 <ehird> Wjat littis in "iai"?
18:11:59 <ais523> and x=arbitrary consonant
18:12:00 <ehird> Tjat is... somtims a xowil.
18:12:05 <ehird> Wjat littis in "iai"?
18:12:24 <ehird> So, ais523: am still, baali, xompijinsibl?
18:12:40 <ais523> you are still barely comprehensible
18:12:43 <ehird> Sai bii to F!!!!!!
18:12:44 <ais523> what letters do you have left?
18:13:10 <ehird> Awjul xollaxtion...
18:14:15 <ehird> Linx mii to wsolang wixi xanxom pag; witjout xlixing. Spasial janxom.
18:15:05 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Random
18:15:11 <ais523> took me a few seconds to parse...
18:15:55 <ais523> hmm... actually, I suppose it was lexing that was the trouble
18:16:22 <ehird> BogusXowtj is an asotajix pwogamming languag inspiwx bi Xowtj an Xals, bi Antonio Masio in 2004.
18:16:35 <ehird> Its atixl is a stub.
18:16:51 <ehird> Pajs WITJOUT loojing up!
18:17:10 <ais523> it's an esoteric programming language inspired by Forth and False
18:17:16 <ais523> by Antonio Masio in 2004
18:17:34 <ehird> Not quit Masio, but los anux.
18:17:38 <ais523> (incidentally, is /remembering/ a language from the wiki cheating?)
18:17:39 -!- kar8nga has joined.
18:17:57 <ais523> names are too hard in this
18:18:00 <ais523> if you don't recognise them
18:19:16 <ehird> Pwox is an asotaix pwogamming languag b ijop. A pwogam is a list o linws; blanx linjs a ignowx, an # mawx a linj xommwnt.
18:19:55 <ais523> ignoring the name of the language for now...
18:20:13 <ais523> ? is an esoteric language by ?. A program is a list of lines; blank lines are ignored, and # marks a line comment.
18:20:17 <ais523> proper nouns < everything else
18:21:05 <ehird> It is Ijop in tj awtixl, I guwss, tjo.
18:22:04 <ais523> sorry, doing something else
18:22:22 <ais523> out of the esolangers I know
18:22:41 <ehird> So, lwt mi majx tjis totalli impossibl. Xompajansibl?
18:22:42 <ais523> so now I just have to wonder what Warrigal called it
18:22:59 <ais523> "let me make this totally impossible. Comprehensible?"
18:23:25 <ehird> Ja. But lat's xu nam xist.
18:24:07 <ais523> meh, I have less confusing things to do
18:24:30 <ehird> ais523: Aw. I was just about to maj it nwjx-impossibl too.
18:24:57 <ais523> if you keep going without the proper nouns, I can try in the background
18:26:11 <ehird> ais523: Sai bii bii to... i.
18:26:22 <ais523> what have you done wrong?
18:28:12 <ehird> Uj! Bu bu, o uns a.
18:28:28 <ehird> Mugt us wull gu ull tju uwj.
18:28:34 <ais523> getting rid of all the vowels?
18:28:43 <ais523> ok, just all the others
18:29:58 <ehird> U xunnut uxun tup ux numu nuw...
18:30:21 <ais523> well, "You cannot ... now"
18:31:59 <ais523> you could probably get your keyboard smaller by removing rare letters and keeping just a few vaguely different ones
18:32:05 <ais523> well, I mean sharply different
18:32:10 <ais523> but each covering its own vague area
18:33:25 <ehird> Iiiiii'm baaaaaaack!
18:34:01 <ais523> what letters can you type now?
18:34:30 <ehird> All except that one after c; except they're all a bit mushy now, an of course f is very brittle.
18:34:42 <ehird> Also, I'm instinctively avoiing the actual letters themselves an aiming for ones near them.
18:34:49 <ais523> you need a new keyboard
18:35:14 <ehird> You nee a new trackpa :P
18:35:44 <ais523> my computer booted in diagnostic mode a while back
18:35:47 <ais523> I'm not sure what triggered it
18:35:53 <ais523> but the hardware couldn't find the trackpad
18:35:59 <ais523> so it's definitely a hardware not a software problem
18:36:01 <ehird> rttttttttttttttttttttttttttttoops
18:36:19 <ehird> My nails are too short to get this out argh
18:37:28 <ais523> incidentally, it seems to be possible to get Wikia's Special:Outbound in an infinite loop
18:38:52 <ehird> ctcrfrtrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrre
18:39:05 <ehird> cfffffffffrttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt4
18:39:39 <ehird> 8888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888885rtrttt
18:39:47 <ehird> dddddddddddddddddddsad
18:40:51 <ehird> 999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999555555
18:40:59 <ehird> cffffffffrttrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr5tr
18:41:20 <ehird> ducking piece o acadmeic slime!
18:41:46 <ais523> ehird's d is now working but not the f, it seems
18:42:20 <ehird> I'm doing a totally intense keyboard mod guys
18:42:43 <ehird> 'irst o' all, I've replaced the text on the cap o' my d key with "." on one line and "Del" on the other
18:42:46 <ehird> totally kick-ass, right
18:42:52 <fizzie> Meh, it seems this 1.6 ROM actually, when starting a program, checks whether it has already loaded that particular program in memory, and does not re-copy it if it has. Which breaks some bits of self-modifying code that aren't explicitly initialized. (At least that's what it looks like, but that's completely bonkers: that would break any initialized data in the program that is modified.)
18:42:54 <AnMaster> <ais523> incidentally, it seems to be possible to get Wikia's Special:Outbound in an infinite loop <-- what is that page for?
18:42:57 <ehird> haven't decided what 31337 things to do to my -- key!
18:43:00 <ais523> AnMaster: showing adverts
18:43:28 <ais523> ehird: this'll end in disaster
18:43:32 <ais523> but then, it started in disaster
18:43:35 <ais523> so you're no worse off...
18:43:44 <ehird> Who uses the ./del key on the numpad anyway.
18:44:01 <ehird> Ducking keys that are almost but not quite the same shape
18:44:03 <ehird> DUCK THEM IN THE ASS
18:44:37 <ehird> 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000220
18:44:54 <ehird> rttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
18:45:01 <ehird> rttrrrrttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttrtttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
18:45:08 <ehird> rtttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
18:46:07 <ehird> dtttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt544t
18:47:41 <AnMaster> ais523, since when does wikipedia have ads!?
18:47:50 <ais523> AnMaster: Wikipedia != Wikia
18:47:51 <ehird> Dail at eading cmopehension
18:48:22 <ehird> do i sound like a manic robot rom space with all o this
18:48:32 -!- Jerry has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:48:50 <ais523> still, you could probably waste Wikia's ad agency's money, and indirectly Wikia's when they get less of a good deal next time, by getting your browser to just run Special:Outbound in a loop
18:49:05 <AnMaster> ehird, you didn't specify who you were asking
18:49:28 <ais523> if you just go to Special:Outbound directly
18:49:33 <ais523> the redirect link redirects to itself
18:49:42 <ais523> I'm not sure what happens if you turn it on
18:50:06 <ehird> no such special page
18:50:07 <ehird> on creatures wikia
18:50:12 <ehird> also that error page is skinned in monaco, huh
18:50:24 <ais523> ehird: follow an external link from Wikia, and see what the URL says
18:52:57 <AnMaster> ais523, there is no ad on the outbound page? So I fail to see how it would waste anything
18:53:06 <ais523> AnMaster: it's added via JS
18:53:10 <ais523> which you presumably have turned off
18:53:20 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but even with it on there are no ads
18:53:26 <AnMaster> I guess it is due to adblock then
18:53:33 <ais523> less weird if you're using adblock
18:53:38 <ais523> that's sort-of what it's meant to do...
18:54:15 <ehird> he lnmewje just wanted an oppertunity to point out
19:03:54 <ais523> if you use adblock, don't complain that you can't see adverts...
19:08:12 -!- jix has joined.
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19:52:40 * AnMaster just ate a whole (small) garlic
19:52:46 <zzo38> Please don't say 7zip supports unraring. I have 7zip and it doesn't support unraring. (I have the latest version)
19:53:02 <ais523> zzo38 already gave the reason for his comment
19:53:05 <AnMaster> ais523, why not? garlic is wonderful
19:53:10 <ais523> even if it is slightly out of context
19:53:13 <ais523> well, very out of context
19:54:26 <AnMaster> ais523, also I used one of those things you squeeze on that uses force on the garlic to compact it then dumping the thing on two sandwiches.
19:54:41 <zzo38> The 7-zip web-site says it supports unpacking RAR archive, but I downloaded the latest version, and RAR is not supported.
19:54:57 <AnMaster> zzo38, you expect us to know anything about this?
19:55:25 <zzo38> Fortunately I have PAEXT which does support RAR.
19:56:01 <zzo38> I am commenting on a previous comment before now
19:58:10 <zzo38> However, PAEXT isn't FOSS, but for now I will just have to deal with that, just like I have to deal with Windows, even though it isn't FOSS either.
20:01:59 <AnMaster> ais523, can you think of any good reason to *not* eat a garlic?
20:03:50 <zzo38> Because, you are full of eating, that's why.
20:04:34 <AnMaster> zzo38, is that supposed to make sense?
20:05:00 <ais523> this conversation is surreal
20:05:09 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:05:11 <oklopol> or perhaps "from eating", but that would be an error, instead of a weird phrasing
20:05:30 <zzo38> AnMaster: Yes, I think that is supposed to make sense!
20:06:04 * ais523 wonders whether to monologue about Feather, ignoring what the rest of the channel says
20:06:14 <AnMaster> but I wasn't full of food before I ate the garlic
20:06:37 <oklopol> i have been thinking about a lang too, only marginally esoteric though
20:07:02 <oklopol> the thing that's kinda like j but for graphs
20:07:22 <zzo38> ais523: You can monologue like that if you want to, the other people who don't like that can ignore, split, highlight, or silence, your messages temporarily, if some people wants to do that.
20:07:48 <ais523> why would people highlight my messages if they didn't like what I was saying?
20:07:51 <zzo38> (This server supports the SILENCE command, the other three are client-side operations)
20:08:19 <zzo38> Highlight simply to separate the monologue with the rest of the messages to make them both distinct from each other
20:09:03 <AnMaster> ais523, and I'm interested in garli^Wfeather
20:09:20 <ais523> well, I haven't really got much further with it
20:09:25 <ais523> because I've been doing other things
20:09:42 <zzo38> Espernet doesn't support SILENCE command. The SILENCE command is basically similar to an ignore feature but it works server-side instead of client-side.
20:09:44 <ais523> atm I'm wondering how an object can pass itself to its member functions
20:09:51 <zzo38> To try it, just send the command SILENCE to the server
20:10:00 <zzo38> And see if you get an error message or not.
20:10:14 <ais523> I think it'll work much the same way as loops in Unlambda
20:10:23 <ais523> as in, a technical problem that is confusing but has a simple solution
20:12:11 <oklopol> is feather tc without its superfeatures
20:17:12 <AnMaster> ehird, I give up with sound in windows 7, to fix I'm reinstalling (can still do since I didn't activate it yet)
20:18:05 <ais523> oklopol: yes because it embeds lambda calculus
20:18:09 <ais523> but you aren't supposed to use it like that
20:18:14 <ais523> (and it isn't over-TC even with them)
20:19:11 <AnMaster> ais523, just what the synytax will look like
20:19:19 <AnMaster> lisp-like? C-like? something else?
20:19:19 <ais523> to start with, it's very simple
20:19:29 <ais523> [ x | x ] is lambda x . x
20:19:46 <ais523> and [ ] without | inside is basically grouping parens
20:20:01 <ais523> and a b c is (a(b))(c), like in Haskell
20:20:13 <AnMaster> I don't know lambda calculus (nor unlambda)
20:20:21 <AnMaster> maybe I need to read up on them
20:20:30 <AnMaster> ais523, and nor do I know haskell
20:20:40 <ais523> definitely learn unlambda
20:20:47 <ais523> although you'll probably want to learn lambda calculus first
20:20:50 <oklopol> lambda calculus is the calculus of functions, you have functions that can take functions as parameters and apply them to each other
20:20:53 <ais523> or you won't be able to make sense of anything that's going on
20:21:03 <Slereah> Lazy Bird is for cool cats
20:21:11 <AnMaster> ais523, I have looked at it, but I really can't think of a reasonable way to program in it
20:21:19 <AnMaster> sure it may be TC... but so is BCT...
20:21:25 <ais523> compiling from lambda calculus is the normal way
20:21:35 <ais523> and even a basic lambda calculus is expressive enough to compile in directly
20:21:48 <Slereah> Lambda calculus is easy enough
20:21:59 <Slereah> You just need to know a few basic functions
20:22:02 <AnMaster> I can't think of how you program in lambda calculus
20:22:10 <ais523> AnMaster: the same way you program in C
20:22:18 <ais523> except you have to generate your control and data structures on the fly
20:22:22 <AnMaster> ais523, hah. No it isn't imperative, I know that much
20:22:32 <Slereah> Well, control is easy enough
20:22:47 <ais523> you can compile imperative programs into lambda calculus pretty directly
20:22:53 <ais523> Slereah: depends on how you define true and false!
20:22:54 <Slereah> And you can do loops with a modified Turing combinator
20:23:07 <ais523> I normally use `ki as false and i as true
20:23:28 <ais523> but, say, `ki and k make an if easier
20:23:46 <Slereah> Saves me a bunch of tropubles
20:24:12 <AnMaster> fun fact: synergy will break out of mouse capturing apps (at least on non-server screen)
20:24:22 <AnMaster> when the mouse reach the edge as it believe it is
20:24:34 <AnMaster> rather than as it is constrained by the mouse capturing app
20:24:43 <AnMaster> in this case the mouse capturing app is virtualboz
20:25:00 <Slereah> Fuck, what was señor Turingos again
20:25:11 <Slereah> Forgot what was the formula
20:26:34 <Slereah> Turing combinator is just ^x^y.y(xxy)
20:27:24 <Slereah> Add a stopping condition, some output and whatever changes for every step you need on the y's
20:35:03 <zzo38> Is the game "Super ASCII MZX Town Part II" is a good game? Or is Part I better?
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20:40:30 <Deewiant> Wow, zeux has spawned that much stuff? I thought it was just one game
20:41:57 <Deewiant> (This game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUM_0cp5xgo)
20:44:40 <Deewiant> Hey, and it's freeware these days, too.
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20:51:41 <zzo38> No, it really has spawned that much stuff.
20:52:01 <zzo38> MegaZeux is licensed by GNU GPL v2 or later version.
20:54:46 <zzo38> And I have also fixed bugs in MegaZeux and added some features, including feature to use Forth codes.
20:56:13 <AnMaster> also how is it pronounced? "mega sucks"?
20:56:28 <AnMaster> ehird, what sort of game is it
20:56:42 <zzo38> MegaZeux is different from Zeux.
20:59:16 <Deewiant> Oh cool, Zeux has savegames, that'll help
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21:00:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, as in "system currently heavily loaded, will in a bit"
21:00:34 <AnMaster> ehird, great... reinstalling *didn't* help for audio
21:06:43 <AnMaster> ooh windows 7 now bluescreened on me
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21:09:23 <Warrigal> Judging by the fact that this tab was highlighted, someone said my name or something.
21:13:01 <zzo38> Screenshot of Part I: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/screen.png
21:13:26 <zzo38> Screenshot of Part II: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_0F/screen0.png
21:13:41 <zzo38> For descriptions, see the MZX wiki and the actual games themself.
21:25:37 <AnMaster> Warrigal, well then maybe there wasn't anything
21:34:43 <fizzie> 20:22:43 [.fi time] <ais523> so now I just have to wonder what Warrigal called it
21:34:54 <fizzie> (That was three hours ago.)
21:37:05 <Warrigal> Pronounced like the word "pros" except with every letter that can be pronounced in two different ways pronounced the other way. :-P
21:40:52 <AnMaster> Warrigal, heh read that as /proc/ first
21:42:09 <Warrigal> What kind of consonant is /c/, anyway? :-P
21:44:13 <Deewiant> In what language is 'o' /ɑ/? O_o
21:44:56 <zzo38> Can you make a suggestion(s) for my game, too?
21:45:05 <zzo38> Part II is not finish being made yet, Part I is finish, OK
21:48:53 <AnMaster> <Warrigal> It may have been Proce. <-- eh?
21:49:02 <AnMaster> I meant as in /proc on a *nix system
21:51:39 <zzo38> Do you think somehow a gopher client could be written for GameBoy?
21:52:15 <zzo38> No. But you could connect something using a extension port
21:53:10 <zzo38> I am interested in these kind of hardware building, too. And then, you could make emulator that can connect to other programs for the extension port
21:54:26 <zzo38> But I think a gopher client could be written in Z-machine, MegaZeux, TADS, and various other things, from use of the program Z-Internet (which I wrote for these purposes).
21:54:56 <AnMaster> zzo38, why not write it in bf + PSOX
21:55:22 <AnMaster> while not for any of those system it is still a fairly interesting challenge
21:56:00 <zzo38> Yes, I could try bf + PSOX, too. Or anyone who wants to, can try it.
21:57:01 <zzo38> Z-Internet allows any program with file access to use non-interactive internet protocols.
21:57:39 <AnMaster> zzo38, even better: implement an emulator of a pre-emptive multitasking OS in bf :D
21:57:59 <AnMaster> challenge (as if it wasn't enough): make it non-sluggish
21:58:30 <zzo38> Z-Internet consists of two programs, a Java program and a bash shell-script. The Java program, called FileWatcher, does nothing except for terminate as soon as a file is created in the current directory. The shell-script is z-internet and it checks for file and does send/receive and deleted files.
22:00:47 <zzo38> I have only ever written two programs in Java: FileWatcher and DocFileExtractor.
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