00:00:08 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I was just wondering if that is what you was going "??" about
00:00:19 <ehird> Why you were responding about that topic when my quote was about the bad writing.
00:00:47 <ehird> Because ... I already know
00:01:08 <ehird> Because I quoted from the article about it?
00:01:26 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't know if it was *all* that shoddy writing
00:01:33 <oerjan> wait, are you sure that "tree" is not vandalism?
00:01:43 <ehird> oerjan: It's a forest analoy
00:01:54 <ehird> See later in the article
00:01:57 <ehird> Except it kinda leaves out the steps of reasoning
00:02:26 -!- jix_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
00:08:45 <ehird> so, I had possibly the worst or best idea ever, probably worst
00:09:23 <ehird> (also less hyperbolic, BUT.)
00:16:27 <ehird> i'd tell it but nobody's asking :D
00:17:44 <ehird> have you ever played enigma
00:21:33 <AnMaster> ehird, I have. And I'm wondering too
00:22:09 * oerjan has never played enigma, so clearly he cannot be wondering
00:22:19 <ehird> third-person naturally...
00:22:38 <ehird> (a true extension of enigma to 3d would allow arbitrary movement on the z-axis, but that's more boring than having gravity)
00:22:42 <AnMaster> sorry but it sounds kind of "neither best or worst"
00:22:46 <oerjan> 3d, 3p, what's the difference
00:23:01 <ehird> AnMaster: thus "also less hyperbolic" :P
00:23:09 <ehird> I think it'd be fun if pulled off right
00:23:12 <ehird> but it'd be easy to get it wrong
00:23:33 <ehird> camera movement would be a pain
00:23:41 <ehird> but not with Sufficiently Smart Coding(TM)
00:24:06 <AnMaster> ehird yeah you might need to have special casing on some levels for where to move the camera
00:24:50 <ehird> and I think it'd be best to have fps-style movement; turn around with mouse and a key for forwards
00:25:00 <ehird> moving your mouse up and repositioning constantly to go forwards would be a pain
00:25:12 <AnMaster> ehird, a bit hard to move as fast though
00:25:15 <ehird> (no keys for strafe left/right or go backwards; that'd be un-enigmalike)
00:25:22 <ehird> AnMaster: hmm... good point
00:25:33 <ehird> eh, it'd be a matter of experimentation to find out something good
00:25:48 <AnMaster> ehird, on the other hand you could make levels that are more fit to the speed you can manage that way
00:25:54 * ehird wonders if there should be a jump key or whether that should be an item like in Enigma
00:26:01 <AnMaster> I mean, obviously the same type of levels wouldn't work
00:26:15 <ehird> 3d chess pieces :D
00:26:28 <ehird> as in, they move up and down too
00:26:37 <ehird> you have to hit them the right way to position them so you can jump on them as platforms to get higher
00:26:49 <ehird> like, making a sort of staircase
00:27:02 <AnMaster> ehird, a bit hard to stand on a round chess piece
00:27:15 <ehird> they aren't round in enigma, they're square
00:27:24 <ehird> i guess the 3d thing would be harder, though
00:27:32 <AnMaster> ehird, you are on ubuntu right? Install the game "kiki the nanobot" quite a fun puzzle game in 3D
00:27:55 <ehird> *nano bot; didn't find it because of that
00:28:12 <ehird> anyway, I'd have a temptation to code this, but OpenGL is a bitch :(
00:28:27 <ehird> AnMaster: 3d meditation
00:28:31 <ehird> that would be horrific
00:28:32 <AnMaster> the first levels are easy, gets very hard later on
00:29:44 <ehird> you know those huge levels like VI#100, The Aztec Temple?
00:29:53 <ehird> those would be, like, city-sized :D
00:29:57 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah never managed that
00:30:25 <AnMaster> ehird, tried the game I mentioned?
00:30:29 <ehird> just installed now
00:30:39 <ehird> hmm... mouse-to-turn-and-key-to-go-forwards would be odd without first-person view
00:30:46 <ehird> (and first-person view isn't conductive to puzzles or whatnot)
00:30:59 <AnMaster> ehird, hint: gravity exists, but where down is is up to you
00:31:18 <ehird> argh it fiddled with my gamma settings
00:32:32 <ehird> the camera makes me dizzy
00:32:53 <ehird> ah, third-person-always-face-robot is good
00:33:01 <ehird> so what's this thing about gravity
00:33:16 <ehird> you can move onto walls :D
00:33:26 <AnMaster> things fall, you do if you jump
00:33:33 <AnMaster> but where down is depends on where your down is
00:33:34 <FireFly> Where do I find this thingy?
00:33:44 <AnMaster> FireFly, package is "kiki" iirc
00:33:46 <ehird> http://kiki.sourceforge.net/
00:33:57 <ehird> probably in debian too
00:34:03 <FireFly> kiki - tool for python regular expression testing
00:34:15 <FireFly> And http://kiki.sourceforge.net/download/index.html says Mac and Windows version ._.
00:34:26 <ehird> http://sourceforge.net/projects/kiki/
00:34:31 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway how do you like the game?
00:34:36 <ehird> haven't got the first level right
00:34:49 <AnMaster> ehird, quite trivial first one
00:35:18 <AnMaster> ehird, in fact the first few levels are just about learning concepts of the game
00:35:43 <AnMaster> there is help available somewhere
00:36:50 <ehird> it often looks like kiki is levitating above the floor.
00:38:22 <ehird> how on earth do you do #3, I've moved the block, what do I shoot
00:39:09 * FireFly toys around with sources.list
00:39:48 <FireFly> Hm, yeah, it changes the gamma when it's the active window... :\
00:40:09 <ehird> change gamma in settings
00:40:11 <ehird> but it looks best at default
00:40:21 <AnMaster> ok move the block one square off
00:40:42 <AnMaster> then up on that block turn around so you face the switch that was hidden
00:41:27 <AnMaster> ehird, also it never froze for me
00:42:10 <ehird> yes, but i doubt it's that
00:42:18 <ehird> it never froze = i never ran into that code path
00:42:43 <ehird> the controls are so confusing :(
00:42:45 <AnMaster> ok the gamma changing I see now
00:43:00 <AnMaster> a pitty it messes up that I have different gamma set for blue
00:43:16 <AnMaster> ehird, how are the controls confusing? work fine for me
00:43:57 * ehird cannot figure out #4 :(
00:44:44 <AnMaster> ehird, push around the generator and the gear
00:44:59 <ehird> the help doesn't tell me that.
00:45:03 <AnMaster> oh and generator needs to be connected to the gird
00:45:16 <AnMaster> and the they need to be connected to the engine of course
00:46:01 <AnMaster> "to activate the exit, feed it with electricity: connect the generator with the motor"
00:46:27 <ehird> the cogs are together with the motor but it isn't doing anything, anyway
00:46:55 <AnMaster> ehird, are the generator is on the gird bit and turning?
00:47:02 <ehird> no, the generator is unmovabel
00:47:14 <AnMaster> ehird, um that is the engine that is
00:47:22 <AnMaster> the generator is one of the other parts
00:47:29 <ehird> you mean the blocks?
00:47:40 <ehird> oh, I have to connect all of those?
00:48:04 <ehird> nice busywork. yay, i just pushed one into a corner and now I can't move it
00:48:54 <AnMaster> ehird, not the blocks, there is gears and gears with something below
00:48:54 <AnMaster> ok lets see the movements...left, forward, left, forward, left, left, backwards, jump forwards...
00:49:03 <AnMaster> left, left, shift + fwd, shift + fwd
00:49:26 <ehird> and so on for every other block?
00:50:00 <AnMaster> then the other gears should be just behind you?
00:50:15 <ehird> actually, following your instructions "you are now on the floor" is false :P
00:50:29 <AnMaster> ehird, must have made a mistake, worked for me though
00:50:46 <ehird> so, true/false: you have to put all the blocks on the dots
00:50:47 <AnMaster> ehird, oh I probably mixed up left and right
00:51:03 <AnMaster> the dots on the floor are the gird
00:51:11 <ehird> and the blocks aren't on it
00:51:15 <AnMaster> the engine needs to be next to the gear on it
00:51:32 <ehird> hmm... I'll try it later when I'm not so confused, I think :P
00:51:47 <AnMaster> and the generator must be next to the gear AND on those dots
00:52:28 <FireFly> I think I'm starting to get #4
00:52:47 <ehird> FireFly: the turning is a bitch
00:52:55 <ehird> oh, #4 is the one i was on
00:52:59 <ehird> in which case understanding the thing is a bitch
00:54:26 <FireFly> Stuff happened when you shot the yellow stuff
00:54:35 <ehird> erm don't you mean #3
00:55:02 <AnMaster> ehird, http://omploader.org/vMmg0YQ
00:55:39 <AnMaster> ehird, half a brain comment applies I think
00:56:07 <ehird> also, howcome yours has colours.
00:56:20 <AnMaster> ehird, eh? doesn't your? all levels have colours here
00:56:30 <AnMaster> ehird, and yes the blue is from "activating"
00:56:31 <ehird> the level is grey here, with teal as the colour of the cogs
00:56:36 <ehird> i guess cause it's on :P
00:56:55 <AnMaster> ehird, as least one level had ever-shifting colour
00:57:31 <ehird> what do you do if an item is against a wall
00:58:26 <ehird> another damn generator x_x
00:58:30 <AnMaster> ehird, sometimes you can drop it
00:58:52 <ehird> i don't understand
00:59:05 <AnMaster> ehird, shoot the yellow rotating things
00:59:27 <ehird> still a generator :P
00:59:34 <FireFly> ehird, the next one isn't a generator level :P
00:59:35 <AnMaster> now move up onto the ceiling and move them
00:59:54 <AnMaster> FireFly, you mean throw? well that is the "drop" stuff
01:00:05 <ehird> he didn't say anything
01:00:06 <AnMaster> took me several minutes to figure it out
01:00:14 <FireFly> Well, I haven't grasped that one yet anyway
01:00:23 <AnMaster> FireFly, I fail to remember how.
01:00:24 <ehird> i aligned the fucking cogs wrong
01:00:33 <ehird> i'd have to move them individually
01:00:41 <FireFly> You have to have them align="right", you know
01:00:57 <ehird> hold a mouse button and move the mouse
01:01:03 <ehird> haha, etc is one off from wtf
01:01:10 <ehird> oh camera movement
01:01:14 <AnMaster> ehird, eh? I use the arrow keys?
01:01:14 <ehird> goes weird i you're in first-person
01:01:30 <ehird> wow why is it going all slow now
01:02:00 <FireFly> AnMaster, for the rop thingy.. Do I have to use anything except space, ctrl or shift?
01:02:31 <AnMaster> FireFly, you need the arrow keys too. But never space. If it is still "throw"
01:02:48 <AnMaster> yeah, ctrl, shift and arrow keys
01:02:48 <FireFly> And, yeah, the arrow keys, I forgot those :P
01:02:58 <FireFly> What I meant is, there's no special key I've missed?
01:03:02 <AnMaster> FireFly, the key is that thing on the wall
01:03:19 <AnMaster> and moving those blocks so you can drop
01:04:58 * FireFly spins around in a 1x1x1 box in first-person view
01:05:45 <AnMaster> FireFly, basically you have to move the two blocks next to the fixed one, then use that to stand on the side of another and drop it in some unexpected direction.
01:06:13 <FireFly> Oh, there was a help thingy
01:07:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:09:03 <FireFly> I'd rather think about it than just looking up the solution
01:12:29 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
01:14:57 <FireFly> All right, for now I'm stuck on Jump... interesting game, though
01:15:21 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
01:15:25 <AnMaster> screenshots for ehird on throw in the pipeline
01:16:20 <ehird> I am royalty and I demand screenshots! :P
01:16:39 <AnMaster> I mean the first 4 are dead easy
01:16:57 <ehird> that's after 4, I think
01:17:10 <AnMaster> ok the first *five* are dead easy
01:19:01 <AnMaster> http://omploader.org/vMmg0ZQ http://omploader.org/vMmg0Zg http://omploader.org/vMmg0Zw http://omploader.org/vMmg0aA http://omploader.org/vMmg0aQ http://omploader.org/vMmg0ag http://omploader.org/vMmg0aw
01:19:15 <AnMaster> ehird, and I'm not going to help more than I did with elevate
01:19:49 <AnMaster> ehird, btw the thing in the lower left corner? see it?
01:20:03 <ehird> Is the thing in parens a par time, btw?
01:20:17 <ehird> I always get minus numbers.
01:20:32 <AnMaster> ehird, not "par" but "almost best"
01:20:46 <AnMaster> because I got a few at 0, two at plus, and rest at minus
01:21:13 -!- oklopol has joined.
01:30:55 <AnMaster> ehird, look at those pics if you need it. Since I know by now you have less than half a brain and that level requires at least 78% brain + a long attention span.
01:31:45 <ehird> AnMaster: are you trying to be an asshole with no provocation or have you had a brain tumor
01:38:14 -!- oklofog has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
01:52:29 -!- coppro has joined.
02:01:42 -!- Sgeo has joined.
02:03:43 <ehird> ...that GNOME used to use Midnight Commander as its file browser?
02:04:00 <ehird> [X] Show tips at random times
02:04:01 <ehird> [ Previous ] [ Next ] [ Close ]
02:05:06 <Sgeo> ehird, did you ever get DS working on 95? Also, I'm now interested in Dwarf Fortress, and wonder if that works
02:05:35 <ehird> (a) Never got it re-downloaded. (b) Doesn't that require POSIX?
02:06:10 <ehird> "Requires Windows 98+", but I'll give it a go.
02:06:39 <ehird> 95 OSE1 is basically 98 sans the IE stuff, so the number of things requiring 98 instead is stupid.
02:06:54 <oerjan> Do you like multiple-choice questions? (a) No, they are overdone (b) No, the right option is usually missing (c) No, they are all based on the questioner's prejudices anyhow
02:06:56 <ehird> Maybe I'll install 98lite (Windows 98 installer that rips out IE and adds the 95 file manager).
02:07:49 <oerjan> That would be "all of the above", i assume
02:08:17 <Sgeo> Without IE, how do you install a better browser?
02:08:54 <ehird> Floppy disk, CD-ROM or the command-line "ftp".
02:09:30 <ehird> But the nice thing is that you can even delete mshtml.dll at the cost of not being able to open .chm help files; your system will be totally without any of IE's "OS-integrated" (cough cough) components.
02:09:37 <ehird> Well, it's more than just mshtml.dll iirc, but whatever.
02:10:17 <ehird> It was an option on the many-floppy installer; by the CD installer (OSR1) it was required. I believe you can upgrade from the original floppy version to OSR1 to bypass that.
02:10:45 <ehird> Either that, or use IEradicator from the people who brought you 98.
02:11:39 * ehird extracts Dwarf Fortress to c:\dwarves, since the URL is /dwarves/.
02:12:00 <Sgeo> I need to get my Win98 iso onto my laptop at some point
02:12:00 <ehird> Sgeo: I assume this game is closed source?
02:12:10 <ehird> Turn to the light! Pirate 95!
02:12:30 <Sgeo> ehird, I believe so, although I saw something involving the graphics parts being opened up for SDL
02:12:43 <ehird> Right, because it tries to run KERNEL32.DLL:IsDebuggerPresent.
02:13:01 <ehird> DRM: breaking your games on older OSs since You Are Retarded, It Doesn't Fucking Stop Piracy AD. :P
02:13:25 <Sgeo> Why would Windows get to know if a debugger is present?
02:13:52 <ehird> I think because you have to tell the kernel to step the program, or something.
02:14:01 <ehird> Otherwise, you have to emulate all of Windows which is, uhh, "fun".
02:14:48 <coppro> query: how do you debug DRM software?
02:15:09 <ehird> Badly; that's why they break so much shit.
02:15:34 <coppro> if the whole point is to complain when you detect a debugger
02:17:50 <Sgeo> Compile without #define DRM ?
02:18:05 <ehird> (they sell products for it nowadays)
02:19:21 <oerjan> now, if a DRM product is based on disallowing debugging, and you sell a product to bypass that, aren't you breaking some law? >:)
02:19:50 <coppro> oerjan: In the United Stupids of America, I believe you would be
02:20:23 <ehird> United Stupids of America? I do believe your intellect surpasses that of those who say Micro$haft!
02:40:57 <Ilari> That IsDebuggerPresent sounds like useful API for malware. But not as good as CreateRemoteThread.
02:42:25 <ehird> does that actually work?
02:42:34 <ehird> also, malware uses it IIRC
02:42:38 <ehird> you can bypass it, obviously
02:43:40 <ehird> I'd do it with a disassembler, but the lazy.
02:44:11 <ehird> Oh, I think it's IsDebugEnabled.
02:44:32 <ehird> I typed isdebuggerenabled
02:44:37 <ehird> google said did you mean isdebugenabled
02:44:39 <Ilari> The reason CreateRemoteThread is useful in malware is that it can be used to inject threads which lock files or do anti-deinstallation tricks into necressary programs.
02:44:52 <ehird> Oh, creates a thread in another program?
02:45:04 <ehird> I remember reading an interview with Matt Knox about writing Windows malware; very interesting.
02:45:06 <Ilari> Create thread in another process.
02:45:11 <ehird> They used that, and had no actual executable.
02:45:31 <ehird> (Competing malware tries to remove it, and they have to hide from anti-malware programs while removing other malware.)
02:46:06 <ehird> Ah, apparently VS2005 adds IsDebuggerPresent.
02:46:59 <ehird> Part of the runtime, it seems.
02:47:04 <ehird> Is there an unlinker, I wonder?
02:47:34 <Ilari> Linux kernel does not support anything like CreateRemoteThread. All created threads are local to process that created them.
02:47:48 <ehird> Is the revelation there "Linux is stabler than Windows"? :P
02:48:06 <ehird> Right, VC2005 CRT has IsDebuggerPresent. Sigh.
02:48:19 <ehird> I'll try to erase it by first finding where it is with OllyDbg.
02:49:18 <ehird> I hate single-executable-with-no-installer programs; where am I supposed to put that? I guess in c:\foo\foo.exe, but still, what a waste of a folder!
02:49:49 <Ilari> Linux btw has way to discover if process is being ptraced (the signal anomalies and from /proc/<pid>/status).
02:51:17 <ehird> Dammit, OllyDbg can't even start the executable due to the linker error.
02:52:38 <Ilari> UML in single kernel address space mode probably can't be discovered by either. It has its own /proc/<pid>/status, and it the signal behaviour shouldn't have anomalies.
02:56:06 <Ilari> No flag to link it anyway (ld has such flag, executable will crash if it calls undefined function).
02:58:42 <ehird> Oh, apparently if you just s/IsDebuggePresent/GetCurrentProcess/ you can run things :D
02:59:14 <ehird> WordPad refuses to open .exes, hmph.
02:59:27 <ehird> XVI32, here I come./
03:00:57 <ehird> Here we go; it's just text. Tap tap tap.
03:01:07 <Sgeo> Wouldn't want to use WordPad anyway, since text mode on Windows changes stuff
03:01:10 <ehird> (GetCurrentProcess has the same number of letters and I guess has no arguments too.)
03:01:53 <ehird> Now it wants USER32.DLL:TrackMouseEvent
03:01:56 <Sgeo> ehird, you sure you spelled IsDebuggePresent correctly?
03:02:05 <ehird> IsDebuggerPresent, sorry. :P
03:02:14 <Sgeo> That changes the length, though
03:02:23 <ehird> Well, people said it works.
03:02:25 <ehird> Hey, an article about it and Windows 95.
03:03:13 <ehird> Sgeo: same letters
03:03:59 <ehird> Heh, IE3 provides TrackMouseEvent.
03:04:28 <ehird> There's a quick hack implementation for some uses of it; does anyone know if you can tell a Windows process to get a function in a DLL from another?
03:04:31 <ehird> I don't suppose so...
03:07:27 <ehird> cba to find a win32 api function with TrackMouseEvent's letters
03:07:30 <Sgeo> Google Street View has a VERY thick arrow pointing in the direction I want to go
03:07:55 <ehird> Sgeo: link me to a DS that actually works this time plz
03:08:23 <Sgeo> None of the links on http://www.gamewaredevelopment.co.uk/ds/ds_more.php?id=552_0_16_0_C work?
03:08:33 <ehird> so hard to find out which ones do! :P
03:08:36 <ehird> does the pcworld one work
03:10:09 <Sgeo> It's giving me a ds.zip
03:10:28 <ehird> Makes Seamonkey crash.
03:10:42 <ehird> Preferably tinyurl'd...
03:11:53 <Sgeo> http://downloads.pcworld.com/pub/new/fun_and_games/simulation/ds.zip = http://bit.ly/Ft26m
03:12:31 <ehird> Ft26m: transgender, female to twenty-six males
03:13:48 <Sgeo> This arrow on Google Street View is hilarious
03:14:04 <Sgeo> No, don't feel like giving away where I live
03:14:06 <oerjan> would that be transcloning
03:14:16 <ehird> 4 Orchard Terrace, Hexham, England
03:14:19 <ehird> RAPE ME, PEDOPHILES!
03:14:24 <ehird> If you can catch me; we're moving.
03:14:41 <Sgeo> Hold on, I can screenshot and omit sensitive details
03:14:44 * ehird notes that DS has a file \cdtastic
03:15:07 <ehird> Sgeo: do you actually think posting your address on the internet would have consequences
03:15:20 <Sgeo> My friend's address is also on there
03:15:33 <ehird> <peer> Ooh, *two* people to rape!
03:15:43 <oerjan> ehird: depends how much he pisses someone off, don't you think?
03:15:43 <ehird> That sneaky peer, always jumping into other people's networks.
03:15:47 <ehird> He might disconnect you, you know.
03:15:52 <ehird> *people's messages
03:16:13 * ehird clicks InstallBlast. Linked to missing export WININET.DLL:InternetAutodial.
03:16:43 <Ilari> Why does that function seem little "hinky"?
03:16:57 <ehird> It's Windows; the function names aren't going to make sense.
03:17:33 <ehird> Besides, Docking Station *is* kinda internet-based; there's not much more it could spy on using weird functions, since it has all my game data and thus a permanent net connection while it's running.
03:17:43 <oerjan> it's a function to autodial so that you can win an internet
03:18:01 <ehird> Anyway, my wininet is circa-1996 and has 4 as the major version; it is probably from the IE 4 I installed.
03:18:24 <ehird> Maybe I can skip the installer.
03:18:55 <ehird> ds\zipped\DS.zip is the root zip.
03:19:22 <ehird> Although with a different directory in the zip, and without the zip itself.
03:19:45 <Sgeo> http://imgur.com/bG9dd.png
03:19:59 <ehird> why is that amusing
03:20:09 <ehird> also, jesus, you use Luna?
03:20:29 <ehird> (lol@the 98lite google :-P)
03:20:45 <ehird> I always compulsively blank my google search fields after use
03:21:07 <ehird> there's a firefox extension that automatically does it, but I don't use firefox at all
03:21:19 <Ilari> At least it isn't "Hot Dog Stand". :->
03:21:36 <ehird> another thing I do is press del at the end of lines, a lot, just because I'm afraid there's a redundant space there
03:21:50 <coppro> ehird: get an editor that can highlight trailing space
03:21:59 <ehird> And assign it to every text field in the system?
03:22:04 <ehird> Splendidly functional idea, coppro!
03:22:08 * coppro wishes there was a browser with the awesomeness of firefox without the suckiness
03:22:15 <ehird> Firefox has awesomeness?
03:22:25 <coppro> all the extensions written for it
03:22:44 <ehird> Sgeo: are all the files in the DS installer meant to be bzipped?
03:22:48 <ehird> as in, in its directory
03:22:53 <Sgeo> ehird, I do not know
03:22:58 <coppro> the #1 suckiness is the complete inability to look good in KDE
03:23:01 <ehird> coppro: most of them suck, the ones that don't are just bugixes to make firefox suck less :P
03:23:21 <ehird> Sgeo: I mean, from a non-pc world source presumably
03:23:49 <Sgeo> ehird, it's been a very long time since I touched DS, and even longer since I last installed it
03:23:53 <ehird> coppro: you're wrong! also, a child molester. in fact, all KDE users are child molesters: they cause me great life-long emotional trauma, and I am a child.
03:24:16 <coppro> And now, a Moment of Science.
03:24:23 <ehird> awesome, they should do that.
03:24:54 <ehird> oh, i thought it was a pun on a moment of silence
03:25:18 <Sgeo> Google Street View doesn't have an image, and I can't move past this turnstile or whatever it's called without it
03:25:18 * oerjan recalls learning that in spanish, molestar means just "disturb" or "bother". on the other hand, embarazada means pregnant.
03:25:56 <ehird> so don't use street view
03:25:56 <Sgeo> Since it's just taking me in a circle that a car would follow, I'll ignore it
03:26:07 <coppro> In the Ig Nobel prize ceremony, every now and then they have a Nobel laureate come out and announce a Moment of Science. Everyone shuts up and then some guys come on and do some random wordless demonstration, then leave.
03:26:24 <ehird> oh. I googled and found http://indianapublicmedia.org/amomentofscience/.
03:26:57 <Sgeo> Are the Ig Nobels on YouTube?
03:28:16 <ehird> "causes the modem to automatically dial the default internet connection"
03:28:22 <ehird> won't be needing that...
03:28:47 <ehird> yah, it's in IE4 or later; guess my uninstall wiped its DLLs. sigh...
03:29:26 <ehird> Anyone know a wininet function with as many letters as InternetAutodial, taking a DWORD and an HWND and always returning true?
03:30:07 <ehird> Uh, I can't exactly add my own functions to WinInet.dll.
03:30:10 <coppro> Doesn't Windows have some equivalent of LD_PRELOAD? :D
03:30:13 <ehird> Because, you know, I don't have the source.
03:30:22 <ehird> coppro: Functions are referenced in the header thing by the DLL they're in.
03:30:29 <ehird> I don't know if they are in the actual code.
03:30:50 <ehird> I could edit the DLL name in the header, I guess.
03:32:22 <coppro> oh right, the Truly Broken DLL Model
03:32:39 <ehird> Actually it works fine unless you have the wrong versions of stuff, but that will break anyway.
03:35:20 <Sgeo> I guess you can't install IE4, make a copy of the DLL, and uninstall?
03:36:20 <ehird> I installed IE 4 earlier but wiped it totally.
03:36:35 <ehird> I could extract it from a cab, but ffff.
03:37:25 <coppro> ehird: any model where all the lbraries are shipped with every application is, in my opinion, Truly Broken
03:38:11 <ehird> Um. That's good, because Windows doesn't do that.
03:39:04 <ehird> No, it doesn't. Incidentally, Plan 9 does that. http://www.plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/why_static/ Maybe you shouldn't be so dismissive.
03:40:15 <coppro> Windows applications ship all the non-system DLLs they use and store them independently. It's like static linking, except allows them to update individual libraries without having to update the whole thing
03:40:33 <ehird> Untrue, e.g. Gecko installs separately at least with my SeaMonkey.
03:40:49 <ehird> It is commonly done because it works better in practice; DLL hell nowadays is completely unheard of.
03:40:57 <ehird> See http://www.plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/why_static/ for why the general idea is pretty good.
03:43:28 <coppro> Of course, maybe I'm just spoiled by the way Linux distros have their own libraries but that are standard to every program on the system
03:44:48 <ehird> Maybe I'll http://www.plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/why_static/ link this a http://www.plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/why_static/ few more times because http://www.plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/why_static/ you don't seem to have read it. Dynamic linking breaks more than it solves.
03:46:55 <coppro> There are all sorts of good reasons to use static linking, but that doesn't make dynamic linking inherently wrong
03:47:16 <ehird> I never said it was.
03:47:22 <ehird> I said it breaks more than it solves, which is universally true in practice.
03:47:39 <ehird> At least IME, and the experience of several othes.
03:48:03 <coppro> I wonder if you could design a way to combine the benefits of static and dynamic libraries
03:48:10 <ehird> (And the memory/disk argument is bunk when you look at how many bloated libraries today's applications use... with static linking of a less bloated library set, applications would be tiny!)
03:48:34 <coppro> like, statically link programs, but design a way by which memory could be shared and oh god you're completely right about that
03:49:04 <ehird> Right enough to interrupt your sentence!
03:49:49 <coppro> but like, if the OS could detect shared functions, and put them in the same segment.
03:50:20 <coppro> so that it doesn't load multiple instances of the exact same function into memory
03:51:31 <ehird> Only helpful on embedded devices, and they don't really have such infrastructure... one, what if the application patches the function? Two, yeah, that's save maybe a few megabytes, tops, on any system sane enough to use such a scheme and avoid dynamic libraries (i.e., almost certainly having lightweight libraries).
03:51:45 <ehird> Otherwise it's just added complexity that could break things, which is almost never a good thing to add.
03:51:53 <ehird> But sure, that'd be acceptable.
03:52:13 <coppro> ehird: I was thinking to use a hash so that if the function is patched, it isn't merged. I know it isn't fallible, stop arguing with my brilliant ideas!
03:52:39 <ehird> Well, you could patch it after it's merged.
03:52:51 <ehird> (Or if it's delayed, swapping that pointer on the application is reaaaaaaally going to confuse it.)
03:52:59 <coppro> no, because that would affect the other running function.
03:53:16 <ehird> Right, so it'll crash and burn.
03:54:15 <coppro> so just not merging the function with other running instances sounds saner
03:54:30 <ehird> Yes, we have that solution and it's called static linking :-P
03:54:50 <oerjan> <cough>copy-on-write</cough>
03:54:53 <ehird> I admit it isn't the height of elegance or anything, but then neither is the idea of libraries and operating systems and and and.
03:55:08 <ehird> oerjan: Would involve changing the pointer to the function as the application runs.
03:55:09 <coppro> oerjan: how is that applicable?
03:55:20 <ehird> In other words... CRASH!
03:55:33 <ehird> Oops, it stored the old function pointer somewhere. Oops, your crazy code-patching failed. etc.
03:55:39 <oerjan> um i thought that was done with virtual memory
03:56:06 <ehird> That still uses up address space, although admittedly that's a *lot* less scarce on 64-bit architectures.
03:56:18 <coppro> ehird: it would require some serious magic and couldn't be done simply by the OS at runtime
03:56:31 <oerjan> coppro: so they're shared _unless_ one of the processes changes it
03:56:31 <ehird> why not? give each application its own pointer to the function
03:56:40 <ehird> pointing to the same real memory
03:56:47 <ehird> pointing to the same physical
03:56:51 <ehird> when it changes it, remap the virtual memory
03:56:52 <coppro> oerjan: oh, I was thinking pre-runtime changed functions
03:56:53 <ehird> to point to a copied version
03:57:15 <coppro> like, when a program links in a replacement function
03:57:19 <coppro> self-modifying code should be banned anyways
03:57:35 <ehird> It's not self-modifying code, it's fix-this-fucking-broken-library-code code.
03:57:41 <ehird> Also, you are evil and hate fun.
03:57:44 <ehird> Self-modifying code is beautiful.
03:57:53 <coppro> indeed. But it's worth banning
03:58:13 <coppro> like, I like self-modifying code in principle. It just makes things so much more complicated :(
03:58:16 <ehird> Anyway, this is all a bunch of code doing a scary operation while code is running to save a few megs.
03:58:21 <Sgeo> Isn't lisp or scheme or somesuch supposed to be good at self-modifying?
03:58:22 <ehird> So to hell with function-sharing.
03:58:26 <coppro> fixing broken library code is usually done at compile time
03:58:31 <ehird> Sgeo: They can't do that per se. Assembly is the best.
03:58:43 <ehird> With Lisp/Scheme you can't even get a function's source reliably, because they can be compiled.
03:58:51 <ehird> You can use macros, but that's compile-time, not self-modifying.
03:58:59 <Sgeo> What language was I vaguely thinking of?
03:59:06 <ehird> And you can use (eval) on code trees, but that's just because the homoiconicity helps.
03:59:09 <coppro> probably Lisp, just misunderstanding it
03:59:13 <Sgeo> Tunes? Even though that's not a language?
03:59:16 <ehird> You can do that in another language with strings, but it's more of a pain to manipulate the code.
03:59:22 <ehird> Ahh, TUNES is beautiful
03:59:27 <ehird> One, they host our logs
03:59:30 <coppro> lisp can seem self-modifying because of the dynamic scoping
03:59:40 <ehird> Two, reflective self-modifying high-level kernel-less OS! yessssssssssssssss
03:59:55 <Sgeo> TUNES isn't nearly anywhere close to having actual functionality, is it?
03:59:55 <ehird> If only they hadn't been dead for, like, over a decade.
04:00:15 <ehird> Sgeo: Not a single line of code, but they left behind much useful material. They are still, officially, going.
04:00:25 <ehird> I think some things happened recently; maybe it'll start crawling again.
04:00:29 <ehird> Also, it spun off a lot of projects.
04:00:38 <ehird> Like some languages and stuff, Slate for instance.
04:00:40 * coppro has nearly started dreaming of LLV
04:00:43 <ehird> Well, maybe not that many, but still.
04:08:32 <coppro> ehird: thought on my Agora defense?
04:11:01 <Sgeo> tbh, it sounds more desparate than something legally defensible, but then again, I'm not paying much attention
04:12:26 <oerjan> so it's a chewbacca defense? :D
04:13:07 <Sgeo> Why are ehird and Murphy trying to exile ais523?
04:13:29 <coppro> because of a contract scam
04:14:18 <ehird> mousetrapping, and then destroying the assets of all those who try to stop it
04:14:27 <ehird> he shows no remorse for it
04:14:51 <Sgeo> Can't the assets be brought back via proposal?
04:14:56 <ehird> the exile would be for three months; I'd have preferred something in between a few rests and a three month exile, but the current punishment system doesn't offer that
04:14:58 <Sgeo> Also, what, exactly, was the mousetrap?
04:15:11 <ehird> Sgeo: doesn't matter, it is still a bad thing to do; and what coppro said
04:15:16 <ehird> too complicated to explain
04:16:29 <oerjan> i'm not sure that's possible
04:16:42 <oerjan> can you really've an idea
04:17:08 <Sgeo> How did I get sudo access back on Normish?
04:17:30 <oerjan> i didn't think you could contract "have" when it wasn't used as an auxiliary verb
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04:50:24 <ehird> hmm your name is vaguely familiar
04:50:26 <ehird> maybe i saw you in some logs
04:50:27 <Ann_Apolis> i think i used to be called "unrelated_to_qaz"
04:50:43 <ehird> i think it was camel-cased, though, not underscored
04:51:22 <ehird> esolang-wise, probably the most significant happening has been Feather, which is still vaporware but has permanently changed the mind of anyone who has ever had it explained
04:51:35 <ehird> everything else is the usual constant inflow of crap with some minor gems
04:51:36 <Sgeo> What's Feather?
04:51:37 <ehird> Ann_Apolis: for the more insane
04:51:44 <ehird> Sgeo: TURN BACK BEFORE DARKNESS ENVELOPS YOU!!
04:51:57 <Sgeo> And why isn't it on the Wiki?
04:52:00 <ehird> Ann_Apolis: nobody understands it, but ais523 not-not-understands it the most, so ask him the next time he's on
04:52:11 <ehird> Sgeo: it hasn't been defined yet, it's merely a set of brain-damaging constraints
04:52:15 <ehird> although he's working on defining it
04:52:23 <ehird> Ann_Apolis: (ais523 being its creator)
04:52:42 <ehird> Ann_Apolis: basically, it resolves on the interpreter being an editable part of the program, except it applies retroactively
04:52:45 <ehird> and the interpreter is written in feather
04:52:54 <ehird> so, when you modify it, the interpreter used to modify it is reinterpreted with the new one
04:52:57 <ehird> and that one's one
04:52:59 <ehird> so on, to infinity
04:53:02 <ehird> and that's how you perform operations
04:53:03 <Ann_Apolis> i can see how it would get complicated
04:53:17 <ehird> oh, the constraints are simple enough; it's just incredibly hard to reason about
04:56:12 <ehird> Ann_Apolis: I assume you know about http://esolangs.org/
05:00:50 * ehird considers installing beos in a vm
05:07:31 * Sgeo wants to try OS/2 Warp or whatever it's called
05:08:04 <ehird> Warp is a version of OS/2.
05:08:39 <ehird> Sgeo: Here you go: http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3497344/OS_2_Warp_4_(english_version)
05:08:58 <ehird> Even has 9 seeders.
05:09:00 * Sgeo gets a vague feeling that it's disturbing that ehird knows more about computer history than he does, since he was around for more of it than ehird
05:09:18 <ehird> I like reading about this stuff.
05:09:45 <ehird> And here's a screenshot: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f0/Os2W4.png
05:09:48 <ehird> It certainly looks strange.
05:10:24 <Sgeo> If you told me that that was the next version of DSL, I would believe you, except for the OS/2 indications
05:10:27 <Sgeo> and DOS window
05:10:39 <ehird> Damn Small Linux is Damn Ugly. :P
05:11:17 <Sgeo> Can I just use the stuff at http://www.warpdoctor.org/downloads.html instead of a torrent?
05:12:13 <ehird> Those are just the installer program diskettes.
05:12:18 <ehird> OS/2 Warp is still under copyright.
05:12:32 <ehird> What's wrong with a torrent anyway? Just a click to download and open it.
05:13:01 <ehird> 9 seeders; surely not.
05:13:09 <ehird> Maybe your ISP shapes torrent traffic.
05:13:26 <Sgeo> And, if for some reason, some watchdog thingy were to be using it to see who's pirating..
05:13:47 <ehird> Watching OS/2 Warp?
05:14:13 <ehird> Britney Spears mp3s on LimeWire yes, old, obscure OS torrents no.
05:14:52 <ehird> Sgeo: Say that warpdoctor page offered a download of the full thing; "some watchdog thingy" could just as easily demand their HTTP logs.
05:15:51 <ehird> Anyway, downloading OS/2 Warp is about as safe as crossing a road in a ghost town without looking left and right. :P
05:16:16 <Sgeo> At any rate, I really really need to eat and go to sleep now. My dad's going to be home tonight, and being up too late is a bad idea
05:16:36 * ehird wonders what BeOS version to get
05:17:19 <ehird> http://www.aresluna.org/attached/pics/usability/articles/biurkonaekranie/beos5.big.png
05:17:23 <ehird> The latest, then; R5.
05:20:51 <ehird> you are a rich man
05:20:56 <ehird> you have a computer machine that cats
05:21:07 <Gracenotes> ( http://img.secretareaofvipquality.net/src/1234340335056.jpg )
05:22:16 <ehird> "Pictured: secret area of compaq hax, also money."
05:22:23 <ehird> It's so bad it's good it's bad it's good.
05:23:23 <Gracenotes> yeah, not too sure about producing a glare effect
05:24:15 <Gracenotes> just run it through a few gaussian blurs
05:24:47 <Sgeo> Even I know what a Gaussian blur.. although you might be questioning how it can actually help
05:27:17 <ehird> i'm just trying to find out where the context of the line came from.
05:31:18 -!- Ann_Apolis has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.14/2009082707]").
05:32:39 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
05:37:27 <ehird> I want the real thing
05:38:09 <ehird> i can't find a beos 5 pro download :(
05:39:11 <ehird> seems most things only depend on r4(.5)
05:39:33 <ehird> apart from some versions with r5 fixes
05:39:45 <ehird> furthermore, it seems that as far as stability goes, r4 > r4.5 > r5
05:39:48 <ehird> so i wil hunt for r4.5
05:40:53 <ehird> http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3280563/BeOS_4.5
05:40:56 <ehird> voila, is like a magic
05:41:07 <ehird> oh well, let's see
05:42:08 <Gracenotes> "No, but it's really great, I've heard." ... except more awkward
05:42:36 <ehird> well, one peer has 98%
05:42:39 <ehird> let's hope the others have the rest
05:43:44 <ehird> they all have 98%, oh god :(
05:43:57 <Gracenotes> hm. I know there's no source, but surely you can find an ISO elsewhere on the web. http maybe.
05:44:38 <ehird> well it is a few hundred megs
05:46:35 <ehird> well, I do challenge you to find a BeOS r4.5 ISO via HTTP; I contend it is impossible
05:46:58 <Gracenotes> people tend to have things on hosting sites. the least endpoint of distribution of things, as it were
05:47:10 <ehird> my challenge stands
05:47:42 <ehird> what's the google thingy to search for one file extension, btw
05:47:45 <ehird> i'm getting good speeds here, although it's still unlikely I
05:47:53 <ehird> s/$/'ll get all 100% since it's 98%/
05:48:03 <ehird> Gracenotes: usenet has everything, costs money, and maxes out your connection
05:48:09 <ehird> plus the binary search engines are very good quality
05:48:13 <ehird> nothing like http at all
05:48:31 <ehird> http://www.newzleech.com/?group=&minage=&age=&min=min&max=max&q=beos&m=search&adv=
05:48:31 <Gracenotes> oh, I was saying that it wasn't http, but it is yet another place it is likely to be
05:48:57 <ehird> Gracenotes: yes, but instead of paying $15/mo for usenet I could buy BeOS.
05:49:25 <Gracenotes> quite true. how much is BeOS nowadays, dead-ish as it is?
05:52:35 <ehird> http://www.amazon.com/BeOS-4-5-with-Bible/dp/B00002S7JC
05:52:49 <ehird> that's 4.5; 5 is the latest version but seems to suck more.
05:53:11 <ehird> you can get 5 personal edition, installs to a file on a windows or mac partition and boots from them, for free, but fuck that shit
05:53:22 <ehird> and 5.1 is the leaked, buggy, unreleased beta; easy to pirate
05:53:30 <ehird> not that buggy I guess, still
05:54:40 <Gracenotes> ooh, that would be the ultimate reverse engineering feat. perhaps.
05:54:51 <ehird> what are you talking about, dude
05:56:22 <Gracenotes> filling in the 2% you'd miss in the 4.5 torrent
05:56:48 <Gracenotes> sorry, where can I find a 'ridiculous idea' sticker
05:56:49 <ehird> to produce... 4.59?
05:56:58 <ehird> what do you mean, miss
05:57:09 <ehird> I don't know what you're talking about at all, you're being incomprehensible
05:57:26 <ehird> jeez, you could have mentioned
05:57:34 <ehird> with any luck, the 2% will be useless stuff
05:57:40 <ehird> like some system components I don't need
05:57:55 <ehird> or at least in a way that doesn't damage anything, just zeroes out some useless install files
05:58:20 <Gracenotes> sorry, I have this knack for subtracting numbers like '2' in my head. my teachers say I'm a mathematical prodigy
05:59:00 <ehird> the 98% figure was way up there and out of context, and i didn't really pay attention to the exact number
05:59:02 <ehird> what's up with you
06:00:00 <Gracenotes> if u payme enough i will let u into my sekrit area of arithemetics
06:04:43 <Gracenotes> now, I should be studying for my bio test
06:05:29 <ehird> maybe you should do it while less deranged
06:07:59 <Gracenotes> including such exciting flash cards as: Sulfhydryl atoms and function -> -SH, thiols. Forms molecule fastener (R-S-S-R and 2H+), strong disulfide bond
06:11:15 * ehird notes that nt 4 workstation is considerd excellent; to pirate^Winvestigate later
06:14:51 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
07:07:41 -!- zzo38 has joined.
07:10:30 <zzo38> Hello! Do you anyone on here, today?
07:11:44 <ehird> Warning, however: I am a robot. Beep.
07:11:58 <zzo38> I thought it was late. But, not in your timezone? Or maybe in your timezone too.
07:12:14 <ehird> Well, early: 7:12 AM.
07:12:30 <ehird> (You know I'm a robot because I say "Beep." after everything. Beep.)
07:12:37 <zzo38> I can see the time! I just sent a CTRL+A TIME message to you isn't it on the screen?
07:12:46 <ehird> Yes, in the server tab; but I didn't notice.
07:12:56 <ehird> [07:12] --- Received a CTCP TIME from zzo38
07:13:34 <ehird> Do you think this 98.59% downloaded ISO will work properly, by the way? Not that you'd know, but random people on the internet are as good a source as any.
07:13:35 <zzo38> I can also type TIME for the server time, and /TIME for my time.
07:14:11 <ehird> BeOS 4.5, from a source of questionable legality. Not like it's sold new any more, though.
07:14:17 <ehird> I'm going to try it in a virtual machine.
07:14:18 <zzo38> Do you mean if it will work even with only 98.59% or if it will work at 100%
07:14:33 <zzo38> Just try it and see if it work.
07:14:34 <ehird> Only 98.59% of it was available in the swarm of the BitTorrent file.
07:14:38 <ehird> Yeah, I'm going to.
07:14:49 <ehird> Need a boot floppy first, though.
07:14:56 <zzo38> I don't know much about the ISO file-format to understand whether or not 98.59% is good enough
07:15:34 <ehird> I'm hoping that the missing parts are in some random system component that I don't need.
07:15:52 <ehird> Aww, the boot floppy is an .exe that writes it to disk. I'll just use my Windows 95 virtual machine.
07:16:09 <zzo38> But is a incomplete ISO loadable?
07:16:51 <ehird> Maybe there's a checksum... in which case, no.
07:17:10 <zzo38> If the problem is repairable, then you could try to fix it.
07:17:29 <Azstal> I've had a corrupt ISO load before
07:17:34 <Azstal> I've also had one fail to load
07:17:50 <Azstal> presumably it will depend on where the missing bits are
07:18:29 <ehird> Guh, VirtualBox seems to fail at floppise.
07:20:14 <ehird> Maybe it needs a filesystem there already.
07:20:16 <ehird> mkfs.msdos away...
07:21:31 <ehird> (a) Not when the swarm only has 98.59% of a file. (b) It's slow and amazing.
07:22:18 <ehird> (a) Not for an OS. (b) Not always.
07:27:14 <zzo38> I'm not sure I understand you fully.
07:27:25 <ehird> I was about to say the same to you.
07:27:37 <zzo38> O, I was writing to myself.
07:29:37 * ehird gives up, elects to use the Windows 95 install CD to boot BeOS 4.5's
07:31:00 <zzo38> If you had a game which was mostly the same as Wheel of Fortune, which rules would you adjust?
07:31:37 <ehird> All the prizes would be negated, and so everyone would scramble to lose.
07:31:57 <ehird> (Note: This applies to any game with cash prizes. For instance: why not try the debt lottery?)
07:32:13 <zzo38> Well, my ideas for different rules would be a bit different.
07:32:16 <ehird> (Get all your friends to buy tickets too, or you have more of a chance of losing!)
07:32:56 <zzo38> One rule I would change, is, BANKRUPT would not lose all your points in the current round, but instead only the points you earned on the current turn and 50 additional points lost.
07:33:22 <zzo38> And, you would be allowed to pass at any time after you spin on your turn, so you don't have to spin more than once if you don't want to.
07:34:36 <zzo38> (About negating prizes to any game with cash prizes, I have actually thought about making a mahjong variant that works like this, too)
07:35:17 <ehird> The variant you could pull off in reality is "the loser wins the money".
07:35:27 <ehird> That way people would actually play...
07:36:52 <zzo38> Actually, some of my ideas were, that you are forced to take another player's tile whenever possible, make CHII declarable by any player (not only the next player), remove the yaku requirement, play with Washizu tiles, and other things, too.
07:37:19 <ehird> Make everyone play blindfolded.
07:38:24 <zzo38> Washizu tiles are of no use if blindfolded. But even if everyone play blindfolded, you would then need some sort of referee to help with the things that nobody can possibly see.
07:38:56 <ehird> The ref could just tell you what *changed* when you do a move, and you have to figure everything out from that.
07:39:18 <zzo38> Yes, I think there are some chess variants with similar ideas too
07:39:43 <zzo38> Ah, so, you just need to remember what your tiles are?
07:39:58 <zzo38> Is your initial hand not known to you?
07:40:25 <ehird> Nope. (I don't know how to play Mahjongg, though.)
07:40:27 <zzo38> Or it could be like Kriegspiel chess, where you can call any move and if it is illegal you have to try a different move.
07:40:47 <ehird> It'd basically be trying to build an image of the game in your head.
07:40:49 <zzo38> So, in mahjong you could call any tile, and if you don't have that one, the referee tells you to try a different one.
07:41:40 <zzo38> The referee would also have to tell you when you are allowed to take another player's tile
07:42:08 <zzo38> And, possibly also, in a Washizu tiles set, tell the transparent tiles to everyone, and the opaque tiles if you pick it up only to you
07:42:29 <zzo38> And then not tell anyone your initial hand, so you have to figure it out by logic
07:44:01 <ehird> BeOS should be fun; I'll make that VM in a few minutes.
07:46:23 <zzo38> Here's an example in Washizu mahjong which I have had to dealt with: Washizu has 123man/5pin/2334467sou and two opaque tiles. Which tiles is he waiting for?
07:46:37 <ehird> Pony. (I don't know Mahjongg.)
07:46:55 <zzo38> Well, since I could see the opaque 2sou and opaque 5sou, I know the 8sou is a safe tile to discard.
07:47:18 <zzo38> It is this kind of logic which you have to use in Washizu mahjong.
07:47:36 <zzo38> Are you interested to learn mahjong?
07:47:43 <zzo38> Some people are, but some isn't.
07:48:17 <ehird> I haven't seen much to suggest it's a highly interesting game.
07:50:07 <zzo38> Well, I can tell you it is a highly interesting game. And there are many different rulesets, so you can find (or make) the ruleset you prefer. I often play using the Japanese ruleset, but I have a few house-rules, too. I especially like with Washizu tiles, but I don't have a physical set of Washizu tiles or the table that goes with it.
07:52:02 <zzo38> Do you ever play poker?
07:54:10 <ehird> Poker, as far as I can ascertain, comes down to three things: (a) luck, (b) probability theory and (c) social engineering. I can't get better at (a) and I'm terrible at (c), and I don't think I could be any good solely with (b).
07:55:53 <zzo38> You are basically correct, but it is not quite as simple as that. But you are close. Mahjong deals with these three things too, but also a lot more, and often there are hidden strategies which you have just not figured out yet, until later. It happens to me, too.
07:56:35 <ehird> Mahjongg seems a lot more like a game and less an exercise in manipulating people to me, which is good.
07:57:13 <zzo38> Well, yes, mahjong is a lot more like a game and less an exercise in manipulating people.
07:57:30 <ehird> (does the name have one or two Gs?)
07:57:35 <zzo38> But there are still bluffs to make in mahjong.
07:57:50 <zzo38> Mahjong has just one 'G', not two. Some people write two but there is supposed to be only one.
07:59:54 <zzo38> In the Akagi manga, Akagi wins by doing many things that seems strange, and somewhat stupid (sometimes very stupid), but it all works. He has won with quintuple bluffs, no-ten riichi (basically you declare your hand one away from winning when it isn't, you have to pay a penalty for this in case of an exhaustive draw), and betting your life, etc.
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08:02:23 <zzo38> But one of my favorites, was, Akagi could see Washizu had two west, and west was dora (meaning your score doubles for each west you have), so he throw that one and Washizu take it to make three dora, but now he is out of yaku, so he needs three similar sequences to win.
08:03:22 <zzo38> In a few turns he adjusts to 567/567/67, but the 67 is open. He picks up a 8, and can't use it (because he exposed the three Wests earlier), so has to discard it. Now, he has furiten. So, Akagi can now throw the 5 and declare riichi, and Washizu can't pick it up because of furiten.
08:03:56 <zzo38> Do you see how it works? Such strange things don't normally happen in mahjong, but these are rare possibilities to do such things as this.
08:04:44 <ehird> Nope, since I don't know those terms.
08:07:00 <zzo38> If you pick up the tile to win yourself and nothing exposed, then you have "menzenchintsumo", which means you don't need anyone else's tiles to complete your hand. "Menzenchintsumo" is one possible yaku, but there are others.
08:07:42 <zzo38> Furiten means a tile you discarded is one that can be used to complete your hand (even with no yaku), so then you cannot take another player's tile to complete your hand (this adds to the defensive strategy of the game).
08:08:55 <zzo38> Each yaku and dora is worth a certain amount of "han". Each han doubles your score for this hand, up to a limit of 13 han, which is called "yakuman".
08:09:10 <zzo38> There are a lot of other rules too.
08:09:55 <zzo38> You can look up Japanese mahjong rules if you are interested in it.
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08:25:27 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> http://imgur.com/bG9dd.png <-- that is some high res
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08:27:46 <ehird> i.e. 1280x768 full res
08:27:57 <ehird> ok, probably 1280x1024
08:28:20 <ehird> or do you mean the imagse
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08:33:03 <AnMaster> ehird, no I mean the zoomed level
08:33:14 <AnMaster> high res of the sat that took the pic
08:33:24 <ehird> they drive vans around
08:33:51 <AnMaster> ehird, explains the perspective
08:34:01 <ehird> you can tilt it iirc
08:34:02 <coppro> ehird: I discovered a scam in Agora :D
08:34:28 <ehird> do it and give me all the profit.
08:34:45 <coppro> not sure if there's any profits
08:36:13 <ehird> beos 4.5 boot floppy gets to splash and freezes :(
08:36:27 <ehird> ooh, hold down boot and you get a menu
08:36:35 <AnMaster> "<ehird> ooh, hold down boot and you get a menu"
08:37:14 <ehird> want the real thin
08:38:16 <ehird> with all safe mode options enabled still no dice.
08:38:23 <ehird> i did read that it doesn't boot on modern systems...
08:38:27 <ehird> can qemu emulate an old system?
08:40:32 <AnMaster> ehird, pretty syre bochs (spelling?) can
08:41:09 <ehird> yes, but i'd rather buy an old bebox than try and figure out how to configure bochs properly, and then find the time to wait for it to boot up
08:42:14 <ehird> Well, at least the configuration part is. I've only got to the boot up part once before deciding to do other things before dying of old age. :P
08:42:49 <AnMaster> fair enough about the config part
08:43:18 <AnMaster> ehird, gave up on the game yesterday or?
08:44:15 <ehird> BeOS did crazy, crazy, wild stuff on a 400mhz pentium pro, but I think bochs might actually be slower than that.
08:45:26 <ehird> I've read reviews; its installer consists of selecting a partition in the GUI, hitting a button and waiting. That's it.
08:45:49 <ehird> Unless your disk doesn't have a suitable partition made in Windows beforehand, in which case it displayed a partition editor, and then the installer.
08:46:42 <AnMaster> trying qemu is worth a try I guess
08:53:34 <ehird> Hmm, "error inflating file".
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09:24:43 <oklopol> from what i hear the manipulation part of poker is completely meaningless
09:29:35 <oklopol> ehird: when you all advertised it, i solved a few puzzles in it, don't especially enjoy it
09:30:46 <oklopol> also tell me if those need context, they shouldn't
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14:13:00 * oerjan suspects AnMaster's client doesn't respond to pings. either that or his lag is _really_ bad
14:13:10 <oerjan> have you tried changing server?
14:18:09 <AnMaster> * oerjan suspects AnMaster's client doesn't respond to pings. either that or his lag is _really_ bad <-- indeed no ping replies
14:18:09 <AnMaster> been lag spikes like this for weeks now
14:18:20 <AnMaster> even after changing server a few times, so I gave up a week or two ago
14:19:01 <oerjan> perhaps something in your neighborhood then
14:20:14 <oerjan> given that _i_ am using a swedish server... unless i am lagged too
14:20:39 <oerjan> nah, ehird's client replied instantly
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20:12:24 <ehird> HOW ARE THE PEACHES I WONDER
20:19:52 <ehird> Failed to fetch http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/q/qemu-kvm/qemu-kvm_0.11.0~rc2-0ubuntu12_amd64.deb 404 Not Found [IP: 91.189.88.45 80]
20:20:28 <ehird> http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/q/qemu-kvm/
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20:22:19 <ehird> oh, updating fixed it
20:23:14 <ehird> no binary package for kqemu in ubuntu, wtf.
20:24:15 <oklofog> incidentally, "kemut" is finnish for "party"
20:24:28 <oklofog> well. at least it was a few hundred years ago.
20:24:30 <ehird> coincidence i think not
20:25:12 <oklofog> god is telling us ubunty isn't where the party is at
20:30:05 <oklofog> so, tomorrow, i have 9 hours of communication skills
20:33:42 <oklofog> or "speech communication", literally translated... my guess is no other country has that horrible subject
20:36:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, any luck with that computer?
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20:38:16 <oerjan> <oklofog> so, tomorrow, i have 9 hours of communication skills <-- well you should use them well, then
20:38:31 <fizzie> AnMaster: Ordered a new AC adapter, but it'll of course take some time to get here.
20:38:48 <fizzie> Hopefully that's the cause of the problem.
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20:39:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway shouldn't system logs help (I here assume that you do remote syslog on any computer you use for any sort of server like task, like running fungot on)
20:40:51 <fizzie> You assume curious things.
20:41:27 <augur> languages do not do final voicing! :|
20:43:39 <augur> well before you were oklofog
20:43:45 <augur> now you're oklofog
20:43:49 <augur> the k voiced and became a g
20:43:55 <augur> in the end of the word
20:43:58 <augur> but languages dont do that!
20:44:01 <augur> they only DEvoice!
20:44:30 <augur> youre sucj a rebel.
20:44:41 <oklofog> what if it was fog first, so fok was devoiced, and i just dedevoiced back
20:44:52 <oklofog> but yeah i'm sort of a total rebel
20:45:05 <augur> you should front the a
20:45:34 <oklofog> i'm not sure i'm that much of a rebel
20:45:44 <augur> but you are a total fag.
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20:46:20 <oerjan> <augur> languages do not do final voicing! :| <-- never? i could imagine it happening before vowels...
20:46:35 <augur> oerjan: then its not final devoicing, is it? :)
20:46:36 <oerjan> and then spreading by analogy
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20:46:58 <oerjan> augur: i mean vowels starting the next word
20:47:33 <augur> oerjan: thats continuous speech
20:47:43 <acloglio> as if vowels ever imagine anything happening
20:47:48 <augur> those contexts very frequently eliminate the "finality"
20:48:08 <oerjan> hm also danish has many voiced ending consonants where norwegian has unvoiced ones, although i'm not entirely sure which would be oldest...
20:48:25 <augur> no thats not what i mean oerjan
20:48:35 <augur> lots of languages have both voiced and voiceless consonants at the ends of words
20:48:46 <augur> its just that when theyre pronounced, they're very frequently devoiced
20:48:59 <augur> except in continuous speech, where you get inter-word interactions
20:50:20 <oerjan> except the danish consonants tend not to be plosives like the norwegian ones, i think
20:50:41 <oerjan> like no. "mat" vs. danish "mad", where the d is like english th
20:52:45 <oerjan> although you may very well be right about process within a single language. i recall german does that, and also vaguely recall russian
20:53:40 <augur> in terms of historical change
20:53:44 <augur> final voicing is not found
20:53:58 <augur> thats not to say that you wont get something that looks like final voicing
20:54:06 <augur> it just wont be actual final voicing
20:54:29 <augur> for instance you might get something like
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20:55:19 <augur> a language might look have a rule that final vowels are deleted, and then final consonants are devoiced
20:55:19 <ehird_> No luck with the broken image.
20:55:33 <augur> so VkV and VgV -> Vk
20:56:18 <ehird_> Guess I will have to settle with r5. Woe.
20:56:32 <augur> and there might be an intervocalic voicing rule that emerges, which applies before vowel deletion
20:56:39 <augur> leading to VkV -> VgV -> Vk
20:56:56 <oerjan> that doesn't look like final voicing in any way
20:57:01 <augur> and then you just get rid of the devoicing rule
20:57:11 <augur> and you get VkV -> VgV -> Vg
20:57:28 <augur> and what previously was always Vk
20:57:40 <ehird_> shuuuuuut uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup
20:58:51 <augur> did you know that contemporary phonological theory is NP-hard?
21:00:23 <oerjan> it's not really hard to be NP-hard
21:02:06 <augur> ehird_ gets me np-hard all the time
21:03:33 <augur> and theres nothing interesting going on in the eso world! :(
21:04:48 <ehird_> and if you think feather isn't interesting, gtfo and go die in a ditch
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21:06:52 <augur> im not sure i know what feather is
21:07:15 <ehird_> he'll confuse you further but there's nothing more you can do with feather
21:08:39 <oerjan> there will have been, though
21:09:32 <ehird_> i just didn't understand the sentence
21:09:35 <ehird_> there will have been what
21:09:54 <oerjan> something more you can do with feather
21:10:28 <oerjan> NOW FIXING JOKES, RETROACTIVELY
21:14:23 <ehird_> At least it isn't a terribly common ey.
21:15:30 <oerjan> very recently, i notice
21:15:52 <ehird_> It's probably underneath my des, which has a floor for some god nows what reason.
21:16:31 <oerjan> well it's a good thing it has a floor, you wouldn't want things to drop down under your house would you?
21:16:53 <ehird_> Well, there's two floors, see, one on my des and the other on my floor. :P
21:17:18 <oerjan> maybe it's really an outdoor desk
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22:55:31 <oerjan> (google's helpful suggestion)
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23:47:54 <bsmntbombdood_> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824176107
23:49:47 <ehird_> tn: ubiquitous, cheap, simply appalling colour reproduction (as in, trivially noticeable compared to an ips by even the most untrained eye)
23:49:57 <ehird_> terrible viewing angle
23:50:04 <ehird_> everything inverts and goes to shit quickly
23:50:07 <ehird_> you're probably using a tn now
23:50:23 <ehird_> ips is rare, less cheap (ok, ok, not cheap) and rules
23:51:12 <ehird_> you use ellipses more than AnMaster
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23:55:12 <bsmntbombdood_> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824001317
23:56:04 <ehird_> on the other hand, you'll squint at bitmaps made for ~96ppi displays. also, it's glossy. also, it's 16:9, which sucks for computer usage vs 16:10
23:56:26 <ehird_> ((ha! I resisted saying ips!))
23:58:07 <ehird_> congratulations, you have mastered the dumb-consumer reasoning that the companies depend on