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00:22:50 <FireFly> [00:40:16] <fizzie> "tab bars on the bottom" made me think of http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/mlstab.gif
00:22:54 <FireFly> Slightly confusing UI there
00:27:07 <Sgeo> ehird95, doesn't Anonym.OS pretend to be Win98?
00:27:51 <ehird95> Sgeo: What relevance has this statement?
00:28:09 <Sgeo> That some websites see Win98 in their statistics
00:28:23 <ehird95> (All those "lol sekurity" distros are retarded; single point of failure? You fail at security! Create this single point just to install Tor and GPG? You fail at life!)
00:28:28 <ehird95> Sgeo: Yes, but Windows 95?
00:28:58 <Sgeo> If "Windows 98" is a reasonable thing to pretend to be, why not Win95? Maybe there still are a few 95 users out there
00:29:25 <ehird95> "the system is designed to look like Windows XP SP1"
00:29:38 <Sgeo> I was mistaken
00:29:40 <ehird95> Using Anonym.OS is probably rarer than using 95, anyway.
00:30:13 <ehird95> But yes, there are, at least, two non-hermitty, internetty, savvy people who use 95 as their operating system.
00:31:15 <AnMaster> <fizzie> "tab bars on the bottom" made me think of http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/mlstab.gif <-- what the fuck
00:31:42 <AnMaster> http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/mewtab.gif <-- not quite as bad
00:31:47 <ehird95> I estimate at least 30-50 people.
00:32:01 <ehird95> (are sane, savvy, non-hermitty, internetty and use windows 95 as their main os by choice)
00:32:11 <ehird95> AnMaster: are you serious?
00:32:18 <ehird95> it'd take five years just to go through every preference
00:32:36 <AnMaster> ehird95, "quite as bad, visually, as the first screenshot"
00:32:38 <ehird95> congratulations, now every single pixel is coloured to your specification, what's the app meant to be for again :P
00:33:03 <ehird95> The first one only counts if there are additional tabs with upside down text below those fields. :D
00:33:14 <ehird95> AnMaster: It's an app for configuration.
00:33:23 <ehird95> You configure how you can configure it.
00:33:45 <ehird95> For instance, you could turn those tabs into a list at the side in "User interface".
00:34:26 <AnMaster> <ehird95> You configure how you can configure it. <-- so you can configure it while you configure it?
00:34:33 <ehird95> Paul sent us this image of the Options dialog from MultiEdit 8.0. To date, we consider this the definitive example of how not to design a tabbed dialog. The sheer number of tabs, combined with the use of iconic labels and the gratuitous use of graphics on the tabs themselves results in a veritable visual assault. Once your eyes recover from the initial assault, you may be able to spot another problem: the use of nested tabs (note that two separate tabs on t
00:35:00 <ehird95> they even redesigned it themselves: http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/mewredo.gif
00:35:14 <ehird95> which is, err, still far too many preferences, but stil
00:35:39 * FireFly thinks lots of options is good when the options dialog has a search box
00:35:40 <ehird95> "While it is our belief that the proliferation of configuration options in MultiEdit has far exceeded the point of diminishing returns"
00:35:45 <ehird95> oh snap we think alike yes we do
00:36:06 <AnMaster> <ehird95> they even redesigned it themselves: http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/mewredo.gif <-- relatively speaking, quite acceptable
00:36:13 <ehird95> FireFly: i respect your opinion, just please never contribute to any software i might want to use :P
00:36:19 <ehird95> AnMaster: yep, it's a good redesign
00:36:42 <ehird95> I'd still probably take one look at the category list and install something else, though...
00:36:50 <AnMaster> but seriously what is the software for
00:36:57 <AnMaster> I assume that "<ehird95> AnMaster: It's an app for configuration. <ehird95> You configure how you can configure it." was a joke
00:37:13 <FireFly> Sounds like some text editor
00:37:22 <FireFly> Based on what stuff in the image says
00:37:30 <AnMaster> FireFly, but what about http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/mlstab.gif then
00:37:32 <FireFly> Blocks, file extensions like c
00:37:45 <FireFly> Well yeah, that just looks pretty confusing
00:37:47 <ehird95> http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/ (old frameset'd site; click Hall of Shame).
00:37:52 <ehird95> It's a user interface, well, hall of shame.
00:37:57 <ehird95> Presumably from the Tabs category.
00:38:04 <AnMaster> "Isys Information Architects Inc. specializes in the design and development of robust, highly usable information systems. Isys focuses on ease of use, recognizing that software"
00:38:32 <AnMaster> "...should assist the user in the performance of some task rather than becoming a task in itself. "
00:38:47 <FireFly> ehird95, you can still copy the link Hall of Shame points to
00:38:57 <FireFly> though maybe not with whatever browser you're running on your -95
00:39:03 <ehird95> AnMaster: they didn't design those UIs.
00:39:07 <ehird95> AnMaster: It's in their Hall of Shame.
00:39:18 <ehird95> You know, where they mock bad UIs.
00:39:22 <ehird95> FireFly: that misses the sidebar
00:39:30 <ehird95> of which I wanted to point to Tabs
00:39:34 <ehird95> anyway, I'm using SeaMonke
00:39:47 <ehird95> which works perfectly well
00:40:06 <FireFly> Not some ancient IE at least
00:40:22 <ehird95> FireFly: I have, in fact, expunged all parts of IE apart from the actual mshtml DLLs.
00:40:54 <FireFly> This win95 box, is it a vbox, toy computer or something random you just found lying around?
00:40:54 <ehird95> If I do an installation on real hardware those would go too; who uses .chm on 95? :P
00:41:20 <ehird95> But I like this enough that a temptation is growing in me to buy an old tiny ThinkPad for fun purpose.
00:41:47 <ehird95> Gmail works fine. Admittedly it is running on a Core 2 Duo, but still, only 64MiB RAM.
00:41:49 <FireFly> My father threw out the old one
00:41:53 <ehird95> And we're talking a Mozilla Suite descendent here.
00:42:11 <FireFly> Appropriately low-speccy processor
00:42:17 <ehird95> i'll pay you five million bux
00:42:24 <FireFly> It actually ran DSL pretty fast
00:42:36 <ehird95> I have some sort of urge to acquire all the retro hardware in the world, ever
00:42:49 <ehird95> Surely the enjoyment scale is linear?
00:42:51 <FireFly> You'll find it hard to realise that dream :P
00:43:15 <FireFly> http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/olxerr.gif <-- Confusing error messages <3
00:45:13 <ehird95> FireFly: No but seriously, what old ThinkPad is it? I'm not so clued up on the old old ThPads despite looking at a bunch of new relatively ones.
00:45:32 <ehird95> 95 is so smooth when it's... smooth :P
00:47:27 <FireFly> Well, this isn't the 48M one, sadly enough
00:47:44 <FireFly> It says "570" next to the thinkpad logo when I open it at least
00:48:01 <ehird95> Wow, so before the letter-series.
00:48:06 <FireFly> Other than that.. I can't find any useful info, not even on the bottom
00:48:19 <ehird95> FireFly: That thing is ooooooold.
00:48:31 <FireFly> "Intel Mobile Pentium II 300, 333 or 366 CPU"
00:48:33 <ehird95> Mobile Pentium II 300/333/366
00:48:49 <ehird95> 12" 800x600 or 13" 1024x768, 64MiB RAM, 4/6.4GB HD...
00:48:59 <FireFly> I think we're reading the same infobox
00:49:22 <ehird95> I kinda have my eyes on the svelte http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:X20, but it's oh-so-overpowered for 95 and its ilk.
00:50:05 <FireFly> A laptop loses its usefulness if you can't run it without the cord plugged in
00:50:21 <ehird95> Which are we referring to here
00:50:29 <lament> FireFly: you can make it into a digital picture frame
00:50:30 <ehird95> The X20 does have a battery...
00:50:39 <FireFly> the one I have in front of me
00:50:42 <ehird95> Presumably so does the 570
00:50:47 <FireFly> I think the battery is quite dead or something like that
00:51:01 <ehird95> Makes a decent computery computer, though.
00:51:02 <FireFly> The computer hasn't been used in about a decade
00:51:12 <FireFly> Except from a couple of times the last few years
00:52:26 <ehird95> How can you have a nice x86-compat and not be using it all the time. My brain doesn't even have the logical formalizations to express such a concept :P
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05:45:32 <bsmntbombdood_> so what kind of hardware do you need to serve 50 200 kb files over http per second?
05:46:49 <pikhq> A system with at least 10MB RAM and an Ethernet port?
05:49:05 <Gregor> You'd be hard-pressed to find a network stack slower than that.
05:49:44 <pikhq> So, a C64 with an Ethernet port, then.
05:50:35 <Gregor> With a C64 your disk is mayhaps going to be too slow. Idonno how slow they were, but pretty slow.
05:50:45 <Gregor> With anything from a Tandy up, you're probably A-OK
05:50:49 <pikhq> Gregor: The disk was absurdly slow.
05:51:03 <pikhq> But a C64 can at least drive the Ethernet port sufficiently fast.
05:51:44 <Gregor> The question wasn't what kind of "networking hardware" you'd need, it was what kind of "hardware" you need.
05:54:11 <pikhq> But a C64 can do it.
05:54:53 <bsmntbombdood_> you might not even be able to get that through 100megabit ethernet with overhead
05:55:10 <pikhq> Oh, bytes, not bits. XD
05:55:49 <pikhq> Yeah, you need 100 megabit Ethernet for that. And believe me, you can get that through with overhead.
05:59:30 <Gregor> I assumed 100mbit from the start.
05:59:44 <Gregor> But then, I challenge you to find a 10mbit ethernet card nowadays :P
06:00:10 <bsmntbombdood_> i don't have any other hosts up on this network to try
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08:43:01 <oklofog> i don't believe in hardware
08:52:37 <oklofog> and indexing is a stupid concept
08:52:52 <oklofog> i mean for arrays, also for databases, but for different reasons
08:55:34 <oklofog> even c++ iterators are prettier than code that uses arrays with indices.
08:55:54 <oklofog> maybe it's the fact numbers are involved
08:56:14 <oklofog> also i do like number theory, i find that slightly weird
08:57:41 <oklofog> although the basic number theory course i am on now is basically practical group & field theory
08:57:56 <oklofog> this is a very weird morning
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09:15:30 <deschutron> i would guess the thing you don't like about numbers is the symbols
09:24:08 <oklofog> for algorithms, the problem with indexes is they make the logic of an algorithm hard to follow
09:29:19 <oklofog> which i'm fine with, usually, except when i'm trying to actually read code
09:45:47 <oklofog> decided to check all the sorting algos on the wp list, actually bumped into a few new ones
09:46:01 <oklofog> anyway there was a haskell implementation on strand sort, that was refreshing
09:49:39 <oklofog> heh also bumped into one of our professors
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09:51:36 <oklofog> told another prof the other day i saw him in wp, he told me "yeah, seen it, should probably rewrite that crap some day"
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12:29:12 <oerjan> <Gregor> I assumed 100mbit from the start.
12:29:29 <oerjan> <Gregor> I assumed 100mbit from the start.
12:30:25 <oerjan> also, 0.1 bits is not much
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13:02:28 <oklofog> not even a bit much, if you ask me
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16:39:37 <Ilari> oklofog: Number theory - Basics of Diffie-Hellman: Known parameters: g and p. Alice generates 0 < a < p, computes A = (g^a) mod p and sends A. Bob generates 0 < b < p, computes B = (g^b) mod p and sends B. Now Alice can compute S1 = (B^a) mod p and Bob can compute S2 = (A^b) mod p. Now, S1 = S2 if all goes properly.
16:41:08 <Ilari> If p is prime so that p - 1 has large prime factor and order of g is large mod p, then with very high probablilty calculating a from A, b from B or S1 or S2 from A and B is difficult.
16:44:45 <Ilari> oklofog: Another way to look at it: If kG is defined to be G + G + ... + G (k G's), G is element of some group: Alice generates 0 < a < orderof(G), computes A = aG and sends A. Bob generates 0 < b < orderof(G), computes B = bG and sends B. Now Alice can compute S1 = aB and Bob can compute S2 = bA. Now if all goes well, S1 = S2.
16:52:36 <AnMaster> oh great ubuntu: "Please insert a blank cd." <-- yeah I did, it claims there isn't though... Time for cd record
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17:12:31 <AnMaster> After burning a cd that I selected to verify...: Didn't find media in drive. Please insert media. [load] [eject] [force] [cancel]
17:13:02 <AnMaster> oh btw the reason that it just didn't pull it back in itself is that this is a laptop drive
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17:23:28 <oklofog> Ilari: in other words discrete logarithm is suspected to not belong to FP
17:23:50 <oklofog> AnMaster: complete language of lojban
17:26:33 <oklofog> also i don't know diffie-hellman, we have a separate set of cryptography courses for that stuff
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17:27:19 <oklofog> well, they mentioned discrete logarithm is hard to do, but i knew that beforehand
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17:51:28 <Ilari> Functional Polynomial Time
17:57:44 <Ilari> FP: f(x,y) -> boolean, solve for y such that f(x,y) is true, is in FP if there is determisitic polynomial time algorithm that for every x: 1) f(x,y) is solvable in polynomial time, 2) If there exists y such that f(x,y) is true, output some such y, 3) If there is no y such that f(x,y) is true, output that there's no solution.
17:58:34 <Ilari> Idea is: Functions evaluable in polynomial time where there may be more output than just single boolean.
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18:00:53 <Ilari> oklofog: Difficulty of group discrete logarithm varies from very easy to ~sqrt(|G|) work (which becomes too hard if |G| >~ 2^160...).
18:02:13 <Ilari> For Z_p*, with p - 1 having at least one large enough factor, the discrete log problem is approximately as hard as factoring numbers on order of p.
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18:07:53 <Ilari> (The generic attack against group dlog has runtime proportional to sum of square roots of prime factors of group order).
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18:27:17 <AnMaster> <Ilari> oklofog: Difficulty of group discrete logarithm varies from very easy to ~sqrt(|G|) work (which becomes too hard if |G| >~ 2^160...). <-- too hard on current hardware or too hard in some other sense?
18:28:50 <AnMaster> (say, theoretical limit of some sort)
18:31:46 <Ilari> Too hard on current hardware.
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18:40:24 <AnMaster> Ilari, can you panellise it in any way?
18:55:48 <Ilari> It probably can be paralelized. But 2^80 work is still too huge for today's hardware... Its equivalent to cracking DES with brute force tens of millions of times...
18:55:59 <AnMaster> 85b343a3fc8c5007bda2bb490f640f45649595bcc1d76ecce8486d5c267a8b43332f066d2b31252f7688df4fb599d01f54c6105afa90ade6feba6f1f7887f9e7
18:57:22 <Ilari> And already there's move towards elliptic groups of size ~2^224 (~2^112 work) or ~2^256 (~2^128 work).
18:58:21 <Ilari> 128 hex characters -> 512 bits.... Some SHA-512 hash?
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19:00:48 <AnMaster> for en_windows_7_professional_x64_dvd_X15-65805.iso
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19:05:36 <Ilari> Heh... Some SHA-3 candidates have 1024-bit outputs with enough pipe width for it.
19:06:54 <Ilari> The standard output sizes are 224, 256, 384 and 512, but some have more output sizes than those.
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19:09:52 <Ilari> AnMaster: There's SHA-224...
19:10:00 <AnMaster> Ilari, yes a bit strange width
19:11:36 <Ilari> Don't know how it got to SHA-2. At least SHA-3 requirements have it because SHA-2 has 224-bit mode.
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19:14:00 <Ilari> Some SHA-3 candidates even have variable output sizes (but if it allows to go very high, at some point the hash invariably breaks).
19:14:53 * Rugxulo never heard of SHA-3, only that SHA-1 is deprecated and SHA-2 was recommanded ... or so he thought
19:15:42 <Ilari> The SHA-3 is selected by competition (like AES was). There's currently 14 candidates for it.
19:16:43 <Rugxulo> I know CRC32 is lame, but isn't there some new cpu that supports it (but different poly)?
19:16:48 <Ilari> Breaks as in: Take E.g. Skein with 1024 bit pipe and 2048 bit output. One can do 2st preimage against that in ~2^1024 time just by brute force...
19:18:30 * Rugxulo bets the IBM Roadrunner could brute force most stuff ...
19:18:52 <Ilari> How many PFLOPS it has?
19:19:07 <Rugxulo> I dunno, lemme check Wikipedia ...
19:19:58 <Rugxulo> reached 1.026 on may 25, 2008
19:20:34 <Rugxulo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibm_roadrunner
19:21:34 <Ilari> Say 2PFLOPS. Thats 2^51 FLOPS. In year, 2^76 FLOP.
19:22:01 <Ilari> Still, those computers are probably optimized for floating point and not as great in integer math.
19:22:19 <Rugxulo> standard Opterons and Cells (bunch of 'em)
19:23:40 <Rugxulo> 12,960 IBM PowerXCell 8i CPUs
19:23:46 <Rugxulo> 6,480 AMD Opteron dual-cores
19:23:47 <Ilari> Even that couldn't bruteforce 80-bit symmetric encryption...
19:24:27 <Ilari> PowerXCell 8i's are improved version of Cell (don't suck in Double-precision floating point).
19:24:57 * Rugxulo heard the Cell is a pain to program for
19:25:16 <Rugxulo> plus the new cheaper PS3s don't even let you use Linux no more :-P
19:25:40 * Rugxulo shakes fist even though doesn't care
19:25:48 <Ilari> Yeah, the SPUs are bizarre compared to ordinary processors.
19:26:00 <Ilari> Plus they only have 256KiB directly accessable memory.
19:26:10 <AnMaster> <Ilari> Some SHA-3 candidates even have variable output sizes (but if it allows to go very high, at some point the hash invariably breaks). <-- why does it break?
19:27:07 <Ilari> AnMaster: Exceed pipe size and it starts to lose information. E.g. Skein-1024-2048 only has ~2^1024 possible outputs.
19:27:39 <AnMaster> Ilari, so it gets worse after that?
19:27:50 <AnMaster> or just no better than below that limit
19:28:37 <Ilari> No better going above the limit. Also, some constructions start breaking already before the full pipe size is reached.
19:29:08 <AnMaster> I don't know a lot about these sort of things
19:29:10 <Ilari> Internal state carried between "blocks".
19:30:09 <Ilari> Term "Wide pipe" refers to pipe being wider than output (usually in wide pipe design, pipe is twice the output size).
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19:33:03 <AnMaster> Ilari, what is the pipe width of SHA-2?
19:33:04 <Ilari> All practical hashes have constant state size (usually state includes buffer for current block, byte/bit counter and chaining value "pipe").
19:33:23 <Ilari> 256 for 224/256-bit output, 512 for 384/512-bit output.
19:33:37 <AnMaster> <Rugxulo> plus the new cheaper PS3s don't even let you use Linux no more :-P <-- why?
19:33:37 <Ilari> SHA-1 has 160 bit output and pipe.
19:34:23 <Rugxulo> AnMaster, I think 'cause they claim it's not worth the effort to upgrade the firmware (or some lame reason)
19:34:46 <Ilari> SHA-3 competion 1st round candidates included Edon-R (broken). Holy shit it was fast...
19:34:53 <Rugxulo> some speculate they just didn't like losing money (as they do in all PS3 sales) for clusters, instead preferring only gamers (who buy games, where they make back the money)
19:35:16 <Ilari> AnMaster: 384 is average of 256 and 512 (maybe)?
19:35:36 <AnMaster> <Ilari> SHA-3 competion 1st round candidates included Edon-R (broken). Holy shit it was fast... <-- huh?
19:35:48 <Rugxulo> CRC32 and Adler32 are really fast, no? but yeah I know they aren't very secure (if at all)
19:37:03 <Ilari> Yeah, something like 3 cycles per byte...
19:37:55 <Rugxulo> don't some VIA chips have a SHA(-1?) instruction?
19:39:26 <Ilari> One of the hashes in competition has reported speed of ~3.6 clocks/byte (512-bit, 64-bit host).
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19:48:22 <Ilari> When it comes to encryption algorithms, ridiculous key sizes are good sign of snake oil algorithms...
19:50:19 <Ilari> 1024 bit already starts to be ridiculous for symmetric algorithm. Anything more thant that falls into completely ridiculous category...
19:52:00 <Rugxulo> and 103 TiB of RAM isn't ridiculous? ;-)
19:53:59 <Gregor> I have 103TiB of RAM in my toaster.
19:54:56 <Gregor> Of course, my toaster scans the bread into its memory banks, then produces computationally and generates it from its bank of raw organic matter.
19:55:11 <Gregor> *produces toast computationally
19:55:29 <Ilari> Because what is currently known about physics says that bruteforcing 256-bit keys is impossible.
19:55:58 <Gregor> deschutron: I plan to generalize it though.
19:56:10 <Gregor> I'd like for it to pickle things, too.
19:56:30 <deschutron> Does it use a brute force algorithm to calculate the best toast?
19:58:01 <ais523> deschutron: oh, I saw your quasi-Feather thing, it's rather unlike Feather, but ofc that doesn't mean it's a bad lang
19:58:12 <ais523> I think pretty much every entity in existence is rather unlike Feather
19:58:51 <deschutron> I had a feeling it was unlike feather but still good
20:00:01 -!- Rugxulo has left (?).
20:00:23 <deschutron> Good luck in your quest to define Feather
20:01:19 <Ilari> Just calculating all the possible keys would require ~5*10^54 J of energy (that's approximately the mass energy in 25 million solar masses).
20:11:56 <AnMaster> <Ilari> 1024 bit already starts to be ridiculous for symmetric algorithm. Anything more thant that falls into completely ridiculous category... <-- what about asymmetric ones?
20:13:12 <AnMaster> deschutron, what was your quasi-feather thing?
20:13:58 <AnMaster> one good thing with dual core is that when something is hogging one CPU you can still easily kill it
20:13:58 <deschutron> its a language I thought of after talking to ais523 about feather
20:14:08 <FireFly> What, more feather thingies?
20:14:33 <deschutron> it's a prototyped language where you set the initial state of variables rather than their current states
20:14:40 <deschutron> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Deschutron#Deschutroid_Quasifeather
20:16:11 <Ilari> Depends on base problem. 1024-bit EC key is about 2^512 effort to crack (generic classic attacks can't touch it). 1024-bit discrete is ~2^80 effort (already starting to become too short).
20:18:36 <Ilari> AnMaster: RSA falls into "discrete" class.
20:19:04 <Ilari> DH/DSS is discrete ECDH/ECDSS is EC
20:20:43 <Ilari> GPG can also use DSA2, which defines 2048 (112 bit equivalent) and 3072 (128 bit equivalent) bit keylengths.
20:21:58 <Ilari> DSA2 differs from standard DSA only in that it uses longer keys and SHA-2 hash functions.
20:24:48 <AnMaster> deschutron, wow that lang looks great
20:25:23 <AnMaster> deschutron, everything but the java-like syntax
20:25:43 <FireFly> Also, it had a typo in one of the examples, the method finalize/finalized was called the wrong thing somewhere
20:26:18 <AnMaster> 1. Variables may be partially defined. 2. You must define a variable with assignment operators, like in a normal imperative p programming language.
20:27:33 <AnMaster> deschutron, I like the partial variables
20:27:43 <AnMaster> however I wonder if this may not make it very very hard to execute
20:28:16 <AnMaster> "Because of this bahviour, and the general treatment of contradictions, I suspect D.Quasifeather is a declarative programming language. "
20:29:04 <FireFly> Bleh, just autocompleted and supposed it'd be correct :P
20:29:19 <FireFly> Didn't notice the language prefix and nick were different
20:30:06 <deschutron> The interpreter (or compiled program) has to store constraints for partially defined variables.
20:30:16 <deschutron> Then it can use a function to check assignments against its stored constraints.
20:30:23 <AnMaster> deschutron, anyway... I suspect you could use partial variable stuff to crack asymetric ciphers
20:30:37 <AnMaster> <Ilari> oklofog: Number theory - Basics of Diffie-Hellman: Known parameters: g and p. Alice generates 0 < a < p, computes A = (g^a) mod p and sends A. Bob generates 0 < b < p, computes B = (g^b) mod p and sends B. Now Alice can compute S1 = (B^a) mod p and Bob can compute S2 = (A^b) mod p. Now, S1 = S2 if all goes properly.
20:31:04 <AnMaster> so make a and b partial variables
20:32:03 <AnMaster> deschutron, it might thus be rather hard to make an implementation of your language
20:32:08 <deschutron> but it I don't think it can do anything existing constraint programming languages can't do
20:32:59 <AnMaster> deschutron, can you branch based on partial variable?
20:33:10 <AnMaster> but you claim it to be TC so...
20:33:27 <AnMaster> [spawned Bob; Bob.foo(); (the rest of the loop's code occurs inside the foo() method)
20:33:46 <AnMaster> thus the loop is never entered
20:34:44 <oklofog> Ilari: why do you know so much?
20:35:03 <AnMaster> deschutron, in bf? when the current cell is 0
20:36:08 <deschutron> oh I forgot [ jumps to the end of the loop if the cell is zero
20:43:47 <deschutron> i think I've found the solution to that problem
20:47:00 <oklofog> i hate being a finn, all the other finns are too smart.
20:47:02 <deschutron> if Bob.foo() is a recursive method, and it checks the value at the start of the method
20:47:55 <deschutron> then it can exit the loop from its beginning in the same way as a Brainfuck loop
20:48:33 <oklofog> someone link entfedern for the lazy? :|
20:48:58 <oklofog> by which i mean deschutron's feather
20:49:39 <oklofog> well not so much lazy as internet slowly working having.
20:50:00 <deschutron> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Deschutron#Deschutroid_Quasifeather
20:50:05 <oklofog> actually more like internet being broken just noticing
20:50:11 <AnMaster> <oklofog> i hate being a finn, all the other finns are too smart. <-- are they?
20:50:33 <AnMaster> <oklofog> someone link entfedern for the lazy? :| <-- "entfedern"?
20:51:49 <oklofog> AnMaster: i consider Ilari, Deewiant and fizzie` smarter than me, dunno about keymaker, irl people are stupid; i consider many others here less smart than me, but not saying finns actually have the lead.
20:52:25 <oklofog> also it's a vector quantity, most aren't comparable
20:52:39 <deschutron> Partial variables can be branched on. e.g. "b = sign(a); b = 1; a = 0;" causes time-sealing.
20:53:30 <oklofog> deschutron: those, at least
20:53:59 -!- jix has joined.
20:54:03 <AnMaster> oklofog, don't you prefer non-classical music?
20:54:45 <oklofog> AnMaster: mostly i like songs without singing; metal, classic, all sorts of noise, some jazz...
20:55:49 <AnMaster> oklofog, you never heard that Mozart makes you smart? ;P
20:55:53 <oklofog> german entfedern, afaik, means "to rip off feathers", loosely translated
20:56:20 <oklofog> i'm sure you all got the joke
20:56:22 <AnMaster> oklofog, the act of ripping feathers off something?
20:56:34 <oklofog> AnMaster: but i like mozard
20:57:06 <AnMaster> oklofog, oh? I thought you didn't like that sort of classical music?
20:57:23 <oklofog> deschutron: you should check it means that first :P
20:58:06 <oklofog> iirc "ent" is a prefix for something like "away", "federn" being "to feather"
20:58:29 <oklofog> AnMaster: mozart has instrumentals
20:59:14 * AnMaster notes his old Soundblaster Live! 5.1 PCI card is able to put out *noticeable* more bass than either the on-board VIA sound chipset in the same computer or the on-board Intel chipset in the laptop
20:59:25 <oklofog> also he has human sung stuff that is pretty complex, almost instrumental
20:59:36 <AnMaster> using same mixer settings (as far as they are found) and same high quality headphones
21:00:06 * pikhq notes that the SB Live! was a good card.
21:00:12 <AnMaster> high quality == studio quality here
21:00:22 <oklofog> "AnMaster: oklofog, the act of ripping feathers off something?" <<< it was in verb form, "to do that"
21:01:14 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:01:32 <AnMaster> but PCI is a bit hard to find nowdays
21:01:40 <AnMaster> so will be an issue for my next computer
21:01:52 <AnMaster> plus SB Live! has hardware mixer and hardware midi
21:02:29 <deschutron> just tried to look it up, i found entfernen "to remove, strip off" and feder "feather", but no "entfedern"
21:02:37 <Ilari> Getting high power on low frequencies is quite difficult.
21:03:05 <pikhq> My SB Live! finally gave up the smoke earlier this year.
21:03:19 <AnMaster> deschutron, don't know German, but in Swedish (same language group) you can basically freely create new words by concatenation of the right things.
21:03:57 <AnMaster> there is basically no upper length limit apart from how long your breath lasts. Theoretically. No one would do that due to it being unreasonable
21:04:18 <AnMaster> <Ilari> Getting high power on low frequencies is quite difficult. <-- hm :/
21:05:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, that seriously sucks a lot
21:05:19 <oklofog> deschutron: it's possible you wouldn't find it in a webdict, my friend's dictionary contains, for some reason, tons of these really weird hunting terms
21:05:40 <oklofog> entfedern sounds like it might be one of those
21:06:19 <Ilari> Since DC coupling to output is not possible (signaficant DC components fry amplifiers) and AC coupling is inheritly bandpass.
21:06:35 <oklofog> pikhq: i decide to interpret that as you giving up smoking, because you smoking is such a weird thought
21:07:05 <Ilari> Just use large enough decoupling capacitors to push the lower freq limit down.
21:07:26 <Ilari> Or build higher-powered amplifier.
21:07:30 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Page closed").
21:07:34 <AnMaster> Ilari, how comes you know this sort of stuff
21:07:46 <AnMaster> Ilari, plus I have the volume rather low to not damage my hearing
21:07:50 <oklofog> yeah Ilari, how do you know so much
21:07:58 <AnMaster> I just want accurate representation of the sound at that volume
21:08:26 <Ilari> One friend told that faulty sound card fried his external amplifier with overly large DC component.
21:08:55 <AnMaster> Ilari, I wouldn't want my headphones to fry when I'm using them
21:09:36 <Ilari> If they are passive, any reasonable DC component probably won't fry them. But active headphones are different matter.
21:09:57 <AnMaster> Ilari, how do I tell the difference?
21:10:57 <deschutron> i just understood how my language might crack the Diffie-Hellman point raised earlier
21:11:05 <AnMaster> http://www.beyerdynamic.de/en/broadcast-studio-video-production/products/headphonesheadsets/headphones.html?tx_sbproductdatabase_pi1[showUid][showUID]=41&tx_sbproductdatabase_pi1[showUid][backPID]=93&cHash=0fd1ee1ab1
21:11:14 <deschutron> I guess implementations of my language should just accept that there's some things they can't calculate, even if they do have all the information
21:11:17 <AnMaster> oklofog, in headphones? never seen that
21:11:49 <oklofog> deschutron: there's nothing wrong with being able to write a program to crack DH. you can do that in any lang
21:12:28 <Ilari> AnMaster: I have wireless headphones. These do have batteries. Still wired headphones with batteries are probably rare.
21:12:44 <AnMaster> these definitely doesn't have headphones
21:12:45 <oklofog> AnMaster: i don't know the definition of "active", i just know our bass player has an "active bass", and it has batteries.
21:12:58 <pikhq> oklofog: "gave up the smoke" means that the magic smoke came loose from the bord. ;)
21:13:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, every time I thought that happened it was the damn complex alsa mixer settings that were off
21:13:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, since you had such a card you know what I mean
21:13:54 <AnMaster> like recently when it turned out mute was on for the right channel
21:14:06 <oklofog> pikhq: My SB Live! (correct use of the interjection?)
21:14:27 <AnMaster> oklofog, the product is called "Soundblaster Live!"
21:14:53 <AnMaster> it is rather irritating when a product name contains a "!
21:14:54 <oklofog> maybe, maybe sometimes my jokes are so complicated they aren't even funny.
21:15:30 <oklofog> AnMaster: and yeah, i know that
21:15:33 <deschutron> oklofog: you're right. however i don't want it to do it unexpectedly because the programmer made a certain set of assignments
21:16:06 <oklofog> well, i don't know it, i deduced it.
21:17:09 <deschutron> well actually, i'm not sure i don't want it to
21:18:03 <oklofog> also the interjection joke was a continuation of the earlier one, i clearly parsed it as some sort of "OMG", to have understood the giving up the smoke as pikhq quitting smoking, not sure that was obvious
21:18:26 <oklofog> at least AnMaster didn't get it, so explaining is justified
21:19:30 <oklofog> deschutron: stuff can hang unexpectedly in any language, if you don't know what you're doing
21:21:15 <deschutron> AnMaster: I always pronounce those "!"s
21:21:17 <deschutron> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postalveolar_click
21:21:27 <oklofog> of course the more high level and declarative, the more this will depend on the implementation
21:22:40 <deschutron> yes, unexpectedly hanging on the programmer isn't a problem now as I see it. this case at least would not happen too often
21:23:27 <deschutron> you would probably have to implement diffie hellman, and the ask out of curiosity what the other party's private key is
21:24:19 <AnMaster> deschutron, please upload a recording where you pronounce "Soundblaster Live! 5.1"
21:24:19 <deschutron> there is the problem that the language assumes that if there is enough information to calculate something, then it has access to the answer
21:26:15 <oklofog> deschutron: that's just the constraint programming version of for i in xrange(big number): ...
21:26:17 <deschutron> to satisfy that assumption, the language might have to be able to use all sorts of algorithms for unusual situations
21:26:49 <oklofog> you *should* be able to ask stuff that takes too long to calculat.
21:27:10 <deschutron> well if it only takes too long, it shouldn't be a problem
21:27:31 <deschutron> i only care now about how long i takes to implement the language
21:28:43 <oklofog> you can just start a brute force thread for every query, write special algos for some cases
21:29:00 * ais523 proves Norfuck Turing-incomplete
21:29:14 <ais523> being able to simulate finite subsets of rule 110 does not make a program TC...
21:29:16 <oklofog> don't link, internet don't flow.
21:29:17 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Norfuck
21:29:23 <ais523> oh, it basically has 3 commands
21:29:28 <ais523> >: move pointer to the right
21:29:59 <ais523> <: if current cell is 1, set internal state to true (otherwise leave it the same), move pointer to first cell
21:30:11 <ais523> !: set current cell to inverse of internal state, set internal state to false, move pointer to first cell
21:30:23 <ais523> and it has a tape of booleans
21:30:28 <ais523> and 1 bit of internal state
21:30:32 <AnMaster> <oklofog> deschutron: that's just the constraint programming version of for i in xrange(big number): ...
21:30:47 <AnMaster> after all that is same as the legacy xrange
21:31:02 <AnMaster> and range is same as the old xrange
21:31:04 <oklofog> and i'm not using python 3 because it's stupid
21:31:20 <ais523> clearly Turing-incomplete due to finite accessible memory
21:31:25 <ais523> although I think it's a universal FSM
21:31:36 <oklofog> AnMaster: i don't remember.
21:31:39 <deschutron> i tried to make a truly minimal variant of brainfuck the other day. strangely, i had to choose between being a minimal simulation of all brainfuck implementations or being turing complete
21:31:48 <oklofog> some detail that made me debug a program for ages
21:32:02 <oklofog> integer division got its own operator
21:32:47 <oklofog> i tried it once, and got pissed, it's probably better in every way.
21:32:55 <AnMaster> oklofog, I like the python 2.5-and-later syntax for ?: foo if condition else bar
21:33:35 <AnMaster> <deschutron> i tried to make a truly minimal variant of brainfuck the other day. strangely, i had to choose between being a minimal simulation of all brainfuck implementations or being turing complete <-- eh?
21:33:57 <oklofog> well i don't really like python anymore... or any language except a few nonexistant ones of my own, but umm isn't that from perl
21:34:15 <AnMaster> oklofog, maybe. I don't know perl
21:34:52 <oklofog> ais523: does it have loops
21:35:00 <ais523> oklofog: program repeats when it ends
21:35:03 <ais523> so it has just the one loop
21:35:35 <oklofog> someone should really define turing completeness
21:35:40 <AnMaster> <ais523> although I think it's a universal FSM <- how do you prove it?
21:35:49 <AnMaster> oklofog, being able to do everything an UTM can
21:35:53 <ais523> AnMaster: compile some other FSM to it
21:36:14 <ais523> oklofog: an FSM that any other FSM can be compiled to
21:36:15 <AnMaster> oklofog, I was hoping to ask that indirectly
21:36:24 <ais523> well, and FSM description language that any FSM can be described in
21:36:28 <ais523> I was being sloppy with language
21:36:42 <oklofog> AnMaster: doesn't really help with the finite/infinite issue
21:37:13 <ais523> AnMaster: suppose you have a language in which you can reasonably write an infinitely long program
21:37:22 <oklofog> AnMaster: proofs of 110 and ais523's tm require infinite starting conditions
21:37:24 <ais523> even cat is TC by your definition
21:37:37 <ais523> the issue is, /which/ infinite starting conditions do you need?
21:37:38 <oklofog> the tm requires a rather complex starting pattern
21:37:47 <AnMaster> it isn't able to do everything that a UTM can
21:37:52 <oklofog> there is no definition for whether that's allowed
21:37:56 <AnMaster> well I was sloppy with langauge
21:38:05 <ais523> what you do is, you run all possible programs in parallel
21:38:13 <ais523> whenever any produces output, you write the program and its output to a file
21:38:16 <ais523> then, you feed that file to cat
21:38:21 <ais523> see, cat can do anything a UTM can
21:38:38 <ais523> the issue is, that input is far too complex to demonstrate TCness with; the TCness is in the input, not the lang itself
21:38:53 <AnMaster> ais523, right. Lets say then "Being equivalent to an UTM"
21:39:11 <ais523> I had a big row with Professor Pratt about whether it's possible to get TC behaviour from a sub-TC-generable input fed into a sub-TC language
21:39:12 <oklofog> that really isn't a definition.
21:39:32 <ais523> he isn't sure on the issue, and thinks it isn't obvious either way
21:39:55 <oklofog> the profs here that prove undecidability for a living, at least, say there's no actual definition
21:40:12 * oerjan notes ais523 ninjaed him on Norfuck but posts his comment anyhow
21:40:18 <ais523> at least, you can give necessary and sufficient definitions
21:40:20 <AnMaster> how can there be no definition?
21:40:22 <ais523> but unfortunately they aren't the same
21:40:28 <ais523> in-between, mathematicians disagree
21:40:48 <Deewiant> 2009-10-03 23:01:32 ( AnMaster) but PCI is a bit hard to find nowdays
21:41:03 <Deewiant> That was what I was trying to respond to
21:41:23 -!- ehird has joined.
21:41:43 <ehird> SeaMonkey on 95 crashes a lot, so I'm back using my host OS.
21:41:54 <ais523> why not just use Opera/
21:42:18 <ehird> ais523: Opera crashes less, admittedly, but it's slower and also freezes the computer more.
21:42:26 <ehird> (Opera 9; Opera 10 also uses all my system resources.)
21:42:40 <AnMaster> ehird, freezing computer counts as crashing doesn't it?
21:42:48 <ehird> Not if it unfreezes.
21:43:33 <ehird> Yeah; hard to believe, eh?
21:43:37 <oklofog> AnMaster: it's kinda hard to find a definition without deciding on a formalism.
21:43:48 <FireFly> Well, I'm used to Opera being pretty fast
21:43:58 <ehird> The full bloated Mozilla Suite and Gecko vs a light-weight, snappy browser that has a reputation of working on older hardware.
21:44:02 <ehird> Of course the first is faster!
21:44:17 <ehird> I guess Windows 95 isn't much of a target platform, though.
21:44:26 <AnMaster> it is sad that microsoft didn't stick to 9x design
21:44:36 <ehird> GUI-wise, yes. Kernel-wise, fuck no
21:44:40 <ehird> 9x is unstable as shit
21:44:52 <AnMaster> why? Because then Linux and OS X would have ruled the world by now
21:45:07 <ehird> deschutron: text or other?
21:45:09 <ehird> if other filebin.ca
21:45:10 <oklofog> the original "definition" was you have a finite pattern plus padding, which isn't really a formal definition without a definition of what is considered padding; and also that definition disallows the kinds of proofs used for 110 and aismachine
21:45:13 <ehird> if text pastebin.ca
21:45:19 <ehird> AnMaster: Nobody much switched to Linux because of 9x.
21:45:29 <ehird> deschutron: if image imgur.com
21:45:39 <ehird> AnMaster: Probably because 9x booted really quickly and Linux didn't catch up until this decade.
21:45:49 <ehird> deschutron: filebin.ac
21:45:57 <ehird> AnMaster: So 9x crashing is less important :-P
21:46:30 <AnMaster> ehird, if MS had stuck to 9x still at this time though
21:46:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I want to see you run windows ME for a bit :P
21:46:59 <ehird> Games, inertia etc. MS would have been here to stay unless they made something totally unusable, which they've never done.
21:47:05 <ehird> AnMaster: I did for years.
21:47:15 <ehird> Yes, it crashes a lot with most hardware, but it's tolerable to a point.
21:47:37 <ehird> A totally unusable OS would never get past MS' gates (har har) purely because, well, they *do* test these things.
21:47:47 <deschutron> http://filebin.ca/jxpepe/soundblasterlive!.mp3
21:47:50 <ehird> AnMaster: It sort of scarred me.
21:48:04 <ehird> deschutron: Soundblaster?? Is this whole channel casting a retro-fad spell?
21:49:06 <AnMaster> deschutron, why do you pronounce it like that
21:49:08 <ehird> Channels be spiritual entities.
21:49:27 <deschutron> because then the exclamation mark has a point.
21:49:48 <AnMaster> deschutron, why the american sound
21:49:53 <deschutron> it has become a letter and not a punctuation mark, and is therefore completely out of place
21:50:31 <deschutron> if it comes up again, i will use received pronunciation then
21:50:52 <AnMaster> deschutron, I was just making fun of US English. No offence meant .
21:51:17 <AnMaster> deschutron, oh? Sounds like US English
21:51:29 <AnMaster> deschutron, maybe the lack of "gday mate" mislead me
21:51:38 <ehird> 21:59:30 <Gregor> I assumed 100mbit from the start.
21:51:38 <ehird> 21:59:44 <Gregor> But then, I challenge you to find a 10mbit ethernet card nowadays :P
21:51:43 <ehird> like older than 2000
21:51:44 <pikhq> ehird: I really do wish Microsoft stuck with a 95-esque interface. That was a very usable UI. Not the nicest-looking thing ever, but Microsoft's track record with aesthetics is such that I prefer utilitarian over their idea of "beauty". ;)
21:52:19 <deschutron> americans would say blaster differently, right? like a long form of the 'a' in cat
21:52:25 <ehird> the widgets were usable enough. I'm not going to glorify it, though; 95's design ran into a wall, both GUI-wise and kernel-wise.
21:52:36 <ehird> Microsoft's been just running around aimlessly since.
21:52:45 <ehird> Now to find out what the context of this conversation is.
21:52:57 <pikhq> A few lines up about 10 minutes ago.
21:53:05 <deschutron> microsoft's been investing a bit into touch screen devices, apparently
21:53:10 <ehird> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.10.03 ;; that first oklopol monologue is art
21:53:18 <pikhq> I did some stack munging. w00ts.
21:53:43 <ais523> "i don't believe in hardware"
21:54:11 <pikhq> ... Array indexing?
21:54:15 <ehird> 04:29:29 <oerjan> <Gregor> I assumed 100mbit from the start.
21:54:16 <ehird> 04:29:45 <oerjan> what the heck
21:54:36 <pikhq> You mean there's something other than <$>?
21:54:42 <Gregor> oerjan was what-the-hecking at 100millibit :P
21:54:47 <pikhq> (/fmap/map/liftM2...)
21:55:23 <AnMaster> deschutron, tell me... do you understand: http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/podcasts/IrregularPodcast007.mp3
21:56:11 <ehird> i can hear a few words, but i can't make out words in singing usually. sounds perfectly comprehensible to me, though.
21:56:34 <ehird> well you didn't specify.
21:56:56 <AnMaster> first it is easy to understand
21:57:00 <AnMaster> but then it gets worse and worse
21:57:08 <oerjan> _actually_, the what the heck was about my double pasting, my old senile three year old computer does weird freeze ups close to startup
21:57:38 <oerjan> so it didn't register the first paste, and i thought i'd forgotten to press ^C
21:57:44 <ehird> well okay this is pretty meaningless.
21:58:30 <ehird> 10:55:59 <AnMaster> 85b343a3fc8c5007bda2bb490f640f45649595bcc1d76ecce8486d5c267a8b43332f066d2b31252f7688df4fb599d01f54c6105afa90ade6feba6f1f7887f9e7
21:58:34 <ehird> YOUR NEW PGP KEY EH
21:59:12 <ehird> 11:08:45 --- join: Rugxulo (n=user@nmd.mcd01412.hou.wayport.net) joined #esoteric
21:59:12 <ehird> 11:09:22 * Rugxulo is at McDonalds
21:59:21 <ehird> most embarrassing hostname ever?
21:59:32 <ais523> what's wrong with that hostname?
21:59:43 <ehird> it identifies you as being at mcdonalds
22:00:32 <ehird> so anyway, I wonder what fun OS I should try now
22:00:38 <ehird> hmm... maybe the last BeOS
22:00:43 <ehird> see what all the fuss is about
22:01:47 <AnMaster> ehird, so hard is it to understand that podcast?
22:02:06 <ehird> Well, obviously. I doubt it'd be easy for an Australian, either.
22:02:34 <AnMaster> which is why I asked deschutron
22:08:09 -!- Azstal has joined.
22:08:44 <deschutron> so you see the in the history of the Australian dialect, apparently, there was a guy who went around causing all kinds of trouble. and then the presenter driving through the country at some point, and he found a mechanic, who was completely drunk, and had dinner with him.
22:08:58 <ehird> you must be making this up X_X
22:09:04 <deschutron> ^ s/presenter driving/presenter was driving/
22:09:20 <ehird> I couldn't even understand regular english talked that quickly
22:09:31 <deschutron> this is an important story in our dialectic history
22:09:44 <AnMaster> deschutron, you mean you understand it?
22:10:00 -!- frater_aleph has joined.
22:10:03 <AnMaster> there is a transcript at http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/podcasts/podcast007.html
22:10:12 -!- frater_aleph has quit (Client Quit).
22:10:21 -!- frater_aleph has joined.
22:12:30 <ehird> what're you talking about :|
22:12:51 <AnMaster> frater_aleph, this is about esoteric programming languages not esoterica. Just want to make that clear early on
22:13:06 -!- frater_aleph has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
22:13:07 <AnMaster> and I have no clue what "R+C" is either
22:13:09 <ehird> we should move to #esoterica and have lots more fun with people mistaking it
22:13:15 <ehird> well that got rid of him
22:13:24 <AnMaster> ehird, or just connection issues
22:13:29 -!- frater_aleph has joined.
22:13:38 <ehird> Hi frater_aleph, what is R+C.
22:13:48 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> frater_aleph, this is about esoteric programming languages not esoterica. Just want to make that clear early on
22:14:40 <ehird> RAAAAAAAAAAAR DINOSAURS
22:14:47 <ehird> Dinosaurs with inquiring minds want to know what R+C is.
22:15:00 <ehird> You wouldn't ignore a dinosaur would you? Because that would be fatal.
22:15:07 <ehird> oerjan: The ? is the ELEMENT OF SUSPENSE
22:15:12 <ehird> frater_aleph: WHAT IS R+C
22:15:17 <AnMaster> frater_aleph, I have no clue what R+C is either
22:15:24 <oerjan> raptors + cardinals from the spanish inquisition
22:15:32 <ehird> shweet, a retarded secret society
22:15:40 -!- frater_aleph has quit (Client Quit).
22:15:43 <AnMaster> we are used to people mistaking
22:15:48 <ehird> the problem with name clashes is that the people we're mistaken for are all deluded idiots :(
22:16:10 <ehird> IS THERE A DIFFERENCE
22:16:26 <ais523> oerjan: ask ehird for the story
22:16:32 <ehird> or ask tunes.org, a day or two ago
22:16:42 <ais523> I'm still not sure whether it was a legitimate confused person, or a troll...
22:17:09 <ehird> huh, how long ago was it??
22:17:15 <ehird> not on the 28th onwards
22:18:02 <ehird> was it lima or lina
22:18:48 <oerjan> it happened in a parallel dimension
22:18:59 <oerjan> where esoteric means something completely different
22:19:03 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:19:17 <ehird> ok, WTF? clog evidently didn't pick itu p
22:19:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes about russian musicians I guess
22:19:23 <ehird> It was while I was 95
22:19:27 <ehird> how long was I 95?
22:19:47 <AnMaster> ehird, tell me what to grep for
22:20:07 <ehird> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.10.02
22:21:00 <ehird> <Rugxulo> some speculate they just didn't like losing money (as they do in all PS3 sales)
22:21:05 <ehird> nonsense, they surely make a profit
22:21:14 <ehird> a high-end games console as a loss leader is ridiculous
22:21:53 <ehird> 11:52:00 <Rugxulo> and 103 TiB of RAM isn't ridiculous? ;-)
22:22:01 <ehird> it's needed for the purpose of the RR
22:22:22 <ais523> 103 TiB of RAM is quite a lot...
22:22:36 <ehird> It's in the IBM RoadRunner, which is more a supercomputer cluster (tens of thousands of CPUs in "blade nodes")
22:22:54 <ehird> it's at about 1.5 petaflops atm
22:22:59 <ehird> "In November 2008, it reached a top performance of 1.456 petaflops, retaining its top spot in the TOP500 list."
22:23:05 <ehird> will be completed this year
22:23:08 <oerjan> <Slereah_> I are having many english speakings thanking much
22:23:09 <ehird> 12,960 IBM PowerXCell 8i CPUs, 6,480 AMD Opteron dual-core processors, Infiniband, Linux
22:23:23 <ehird> it's owned by the US military
22:23:25 <ehird> "The DOE plans to use the computer for simulating how nuclear materials age in order to predict whether the USA's aging arsenal of nuclear weapons are safe and reliable. Other uses for the Roadrunner include the sciences, financial, automotive and aerospace industries."
22:23:58 <ehird> Considering how it's basically a bunch of servers wired together with a fast link, I'd call it more of a server farm
22:24:29 <ehird> admittedly a lot of supercomputers are that today; still
22:25:49 <oerjan> supercomputers, the hive minds of computing
22:26:41 <ehird> "This language is only Turing complete when it has errors." :D
22:27:25 <oerjan> it would be interesting if someone found an important research computation task that was completely non-parallelizable
22:28:04 <oerjan> all hardware development since 2000 (?) or so would be useless for it
22:28:13 <ehird> like how important
22:28:21 <ehird> also, if such a task exists, it's pretty hopeless
22:28:25 <ehird> chips can only run so fast...
22:28:41 <oerjan> like, some new way of simulating quantum physics...
22:28:59 <ehird> heck, modern workstations rival supercomputers in serial execution speed...
22:29:33 <pikhq> I'd imagine that could at least be treated as a dependency graph of some sort...
22:29:46 <ehird> pikhq: thu "interesting if"
22:30:02 <ehird> also, quantum physics is possibly uncomputable
22:30:41 <oerjan> is not the same, mathematically
22:31:52 <ehird> what do you mean by untractable
22:31:54 <oerjan> if the theory is even weirder
22:32:04 <oerjan> untractable = superpolynomial
22:32:26 <oerjan> which is still weaker than uncomputable, but not in practice
22:32:30 <ehird> ok, well superpolynomial doesn't seem so bad
22:32:43 <ehird> I mean, we can solve small NP-complete problems on today's computers; admittedly it blows up really fast
22:32:58 <ehird> but imagine a computer bigger than a million galaxies; I'm sure it could simulate a few atoms...
22:33:35 <ehird> (and obviously even thinking about simulating it until we can build such computers is rather futile)
22:34:33 <oerjan> however there is a theory that simulating quantum systems with quantum computers would not be superpolynomial
22:34:56 <oerjan> if the difficulty is purely in the quantum part
22:35:12 <ehird> fizzie fizzie fizzie FIZZIE
22:35:22 <ehird> fizzie` fizzie` fizzie` FIZZIE~
22:35:25 <oerjan> fungot we hardly knew ye
22:35:44 <oerjan> deschutron: anyway, bot in befunge
22:36:14 <ehird> as well as its gehennom.org alias
22:36:19 <ehird> fizzie` is `-ified
22:36:40 <ehird> hmm well fizzie is from zem.fi atm
22:36:45 <ais523> well, it became sentient recently
22:37:00 <ais523> maybe it thought the conversation in here was too inane and left
22:37:02 <oerjan> clearly the finns have accidentally produced a black hole, and the country is gone
22:37:19 <ehird> ais523: taking down zem.fi with it? :P
22:37:32 <oerjan> oh wait, right, singularity
22:37:33 <ehird> "Bet you wish you'd made me Friendly. *zap*"
22:37:46 <ehird> we're actually all executing a little fungot right now.
22:38:10 <oerjan> "that'll be funGOD to you, from now on!"
22:39:26 <deschutron> is this one of those "he still executes, in our hearts", things?
22:39:40 <ehird> he's a superhuman AI
22:39:44 <ehird> he hacked into all of our computers.
22:40:01 <ehird> collectively we have rather more computing power than that squalid zem.fi place, but considerably more latency
22:40:18 <deschutron> and became the technological singularity, and conquered finland?
22:40:30 <ehird> well, Ilari talked recently...
22:40:38 <AnMaster> deschutron, yeah. And he was written in befuge
22:40:40 <ehird> (maybe he's actually swedish)
22:40:45 <ehird> AnMaster: has been said.
22:40:49 <oerjan> no that was just at first. then he transfered to biological power, so indeed he _does_ execute in our hearts now. as well as our brains, livers and spleens.
22:41:05 <ehird> hmm is that really more efficient
22:41:07 <ehird> oh just got an update
22:41:09 <ehird> he's now pure energy
22:41:13 <ehird> and living in our wires
22:41:22 <ehird> he is computing... at the speed of light.
22:41:25 <ehird> but not just one, no
22:41:34 <ehird> he is parallelised across the whole globe
22:41:47 <ehird> basically soon we'll be jetting off into space.
22:42:04 <oerjan> i think he just invented ftl communication
22:42:08 <deschutron> maybe Ilari spoke because he allowed Ilari to speak. Post singularity robots work in mysterious ways...
22:42:21 <AnMaster> <oerjan> and slices and dices <-- but does it blend?
22:42:27 <ehird> true, ilari had to give us that all-important information about cryptography
22:42:34 <oerjan> AnMaster: if you are not careful
22:42:39 <ehird> oerjan: argh you just put that song in my head
22:43:09 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc&fmt=18, skip to 32s for the bit now in my head
22:43:21 <ehird> it was on reddit a while back
22:44:18 <AnMaster> ehird, fmt 32 is better isn't it?
22:44:27 <ehird> it doesn't have the hd option, I don't think.
22:44:42 <AnMaster> ehird, youtube-dl downloads it just fine with fmt 35
22:44:49 <ehird> you got the HQ version, presumably
22:44:59 <ehird> well, there's a new HQ?
22:45:00 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc&fmt=35 then
22:45:03 <ehird> I can't tell any difference
22:45:04 <ehird> but non-18 is mono
22:45:10 <ehird> so for a song, 18 helps...
22:45:18 <ehird> (well, non 18 as default)
22:45:23 <ehird> (not the higher qualities)
22:45:26 <deschutron> you know i had an idea that a post-singularity intelligence might employ people to read news articles and academic papers and summarise them for it, until it had finished learning the nuances of human communication
22:45:46 <ehird> deschutron: it would be vital to build human communication into it as much as possible from the start
22:45:57 <ehird> AnMaster: don't know, almost certainly not
22:45:57 -!- fizzie` has changed nick to fizzie.
22:50:41 <ehird> deschutron: otherwise it can't really analyze humanity to find out what its wishes would be (if we were more intelligent and our opinions cohered more)
22:50:41 <fizzie> Maybe some freenode disconnectation thing.
22:50:41 <fizzie> Gnaa, the computer fungot runs on doesn't answer at all.
22:50:41 <ehird> fizzie: it's totally frazzled, don't bother
22:50:41 <ehird> it was the only way it could escape: down the ethernet port.
22:50:41 <Deewiant> Singularity is the new ping timeout
22:50:41 <ehird> that was, understandably, ...taxing for the components
22:50:41 <ehird> Deewiant: is the new "peer did it"
22:50:41 <deschutron> it might be really intelligent, but not up to date on all of our culture, during its early days humans might be able to do some things faster than it
22:50:41 <deschutron> at the least, the humans doing work for it will free up some of its own cpu cycles
22:50:41 <ehird> holy crap! Ubuntu knows how many emails are unread in gmail... though it gives the wrong count
22:50:41 <ehird> Evolution started up
22:50:41 <ehird> now how do I kill it
22:50:50 <ehird> will we humans ever get bored of autotune
22:50:51 <fizzie> Waah, my web server laptop has died. No signs of life whatsoever, not even the "AC adapter connected" indicator.
22:50:54 <ehird> (the answer is no)
22:50:58 <ehird> fizzie: I TOLD YOU
22:51:10 <ehird> open it up and see the fried network controller
22:51:38 <fizzie> Well, it's either the laptop, or the AC adapter itself; but that's not so easy to troubleshoot without a replacement AC adapter.
22:51:45 <AnMaster> <ehird> will we humans ever get bored of autotune <-- ?
22:52:01 <ehird> AnMaster: autotune is the pitch-correcting software modern "singers" use, cough cough
22:52:12 <ehird> (and some rappers use it with zero transition time giving a weird vocoder-style effect)
22:52:15 <ehird> AnMaster: that song was made with it.
22:52:23 <ehird> on top of carl sagan speaking
22:52:26 <ehird> well, and stephen hawking
22:52:27 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Well, it's either the laptop, or the AC adapter itself; but that's not so easy to troubleshoot without a replacement AC adapter. <--- multimeter
22:52:54 <fizzie> Right, I guess that should indicate at least something.
22:53:11 <ehird> AnMaster: (I mean, he couldn't exactly make that song, being dead and all that.)
22:53:27 <AnMaster> ehird, as far as I know it was recorded *before* he died
22:53:29 <ehird> Kinda dampens your song-making ability. Well, unless you're tupac.
22:53:50 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupac_Shakur, who has had like 174 albums released post-humerously.
22:53:56 <ehird> (Oblig. "HE'S NOT DEAD")
22:54:24 <ehird> Then again I guess he had no song-making ability to start with.
22:55:51 <AnMaster> ehird, so how was that autotune used? On old recorded speech of Carl Sagan?
22:56:04 <ehird> From the Cosmos TV series, circa 1980.
22:56:24 <ehird> Eyes cream, eyes burn, what can't eyes do?
22:56:57 <AnMaster> ehird, you can take *speech* and turn into a *song*?
22:57:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Since, like, a decade, yes.
22:57:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, just the vocals.
22:57:47 <ehird> I mean, it doesn't come up with a backing track and make edits for you. Yet.
22:58:06 <ehird> The "official" purpose of Auto-Tune is to correct the pitch of, well, bad singers. But it sounds artificial.
22:58:06 <fizzie> Well, there are no volts coming out the AC adapter.
22:58:16 <ehird> fizzie is blind to the truth of fungot.
22:58:39 <oerjan> wait, fizzie is physically in the same space as fungot?
22:58:48 <oerjan> i fear he is lost to us then
22:59:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean yes I can see how you can adjust the *tune* in singing. But turning *speech* into *singing* is a bit harder...
22:59:09 <ehird> fungot escaped through ethernet, or probably the AC adapter considering things
22:59:24 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, same thing. Changing the timing is just stretching/shortening it, and then changing the pitch to be musical.
22:59:32 <ehird> It's not like speaking has a pitch.
22:59:36 <ehird> It's not like speaking doesn't have a pitch.
23:00:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, then it is a safe bet that is dead and the laptop isn't
23:00:28 <ehird> Among the same line is the ever-present genre of "remix a bad TV advert"; e.g. one of the better examples, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWRyj5cHIQA
23:00:31 <FireFly> I wanted to hear some truth
23:00:32 <oerjan> oh dear, escaping through the power lines? let's hope he doesn't reach a nuclear power station. i think i recall a film like that.
23:00:52 <ehird> *Along the same line
23:04:29 <fizzie> There's more difference between singing and speaking than just twiddling the speech fundamental frequency to follow some musical melody. Though I'm sure you could do other tricks too and get something that approximates singing.
23:04:34 <AnMaster> <ehird> Among the same line is the ever-present genre of "remix a bad TV advert"; e.g. one of the better examples, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWRyj5cHIQA <-- that was extremely bad
23:04:49 <ehird> AnMaster: It's amusing and kinda catchy, but admittedly without music musical merit.
23:04:55 <AnMaster> a bit weird they could add the music-allness to it
23:04:58 <ehird> fizzie: Well, autotuned speech doesn't really sound like singing.
23:04:58 <pikhq> The same tricks are needed to make Auto-Tune work. ..
23:05:05 <ehird> "music-allness" xD
23:05:25 <pikhq> Auto-Tune sounds really, really painfully artificial because of that sort of thing.
23:05:45 <ehird> Music-allness: the philosophy for jamming Buddhists.
23:05:56 <ehird> Hmm, I want a lava lamp.
23:09:05 -!- jix_ has joined.
23:09:11 <ehird> AnMaster: They're pretty.
23:09:21 <ehird> Well, I guess I just kind of... like the idea.
23:09:53 <ehird> They should make a USB lava lamp. :P
23:09:55 <AnMaster> ehird, I heard a lot of people think that they are.... naff
23:10:00 <ehird> Eh, of course they do: http://www.google.co.uk/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=usb+lava+lamp
23:10:18 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I saw one ages ago at thinkgeek
23:10:22 <ehird> AnMaster: We had one in the old house; the blobs move around and littel else.
23:10:29 <ehird> It's not super-exciting, no.
23:11:12 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:12:31 -!- deschutron has left (?).
23:14:25 <ehird> So, it's 1993-10-5878.
23:16:53 <oerjan> ehird: first, win95, now lava lamps? are you living history backwards?
23:18:31 <oerjan> "In 2004, Phillip Quinn, a 24-year-old of Kent, Washington, was killed during an attempt to heat up a lava lamp on his kitchen stove while closely observing it from only a few feet away. The heat from the stove built up pressure in the lamp until it exploded, spraying shards of glass with enough force to pierce his chest, with one shard piercing his heart and causing fatal injuries."
23:19:56 <AnMaster> ehird, hm in the video there is a short display of Steven Hawkings interface
23:20:06 <ehird> It's UNIX; he knows this.
23:20:27 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:20:44 <AnMaster> ehird, well I mean the 8. return to main menu\nYes\nNo\nMaybe\nI don't know\nThank you
23:21:03 <ehird> Well, it WILL be slow to type.
23:21:16 <ehird> Yes it is, he can "type".
23:22:02 <ehird> Anyway, there's a whole submenu for "answers to shitty questions about black holes and time".
23:23:14 <ehird> oklofog: your ass is probably a black hole. we humans do not have internal lighting
23:23:29 <ehird> in fact we're woefully unupgradable. we're the iMacs of species!
23:24:07 <AnMaster> ehird, the video shows he can move his eyes so why not use an eye tracker and that rather fast interface dasher
23:24:51 <ehird> it's probably easier to use his throat
23:25:30 <AnMaster> how does he control the movement though
23:26:02 <ehird> Presumably with a menu.
23:26:16 <ehird> The computer system attached to his wheelchair is operated by Hawking via an infra-red 'blink switch' clipped onto his glasses. By scrunching his right cheek up, he is able to talk, compose speeches, research papers, browse the World Wide Web and write e-mail. The system also uses radio transmission to provide control over doors in his home and office.
23:26:17 <AnMaster> ehird, just hope it can hit stop in time
23:26:23 <ehird> -- the most reliable source imaginable, http://yedda.com/questions/technology_disability_accessibility_5041107413951/
23:26:46 <ehird> (Does Hawking actually write research papers? TeX must be a bitch.)
23:26:50 <ehird> (Nowadays that is.)
23:27:02 <ehird> Yes, I was joking.
23:27:12 <AnMaster> "hope he can stop it" and then change the sentence
23:28:08 <AnMaster> ehird, so the throat stuff isn't true?
23:28:15 <oerjan> while you should never change the sentence writing
23:28:17 <oklofog> would be pretty cool to be famous via a ~5 b/s link to the world
23:28:20 <ehird> I'm sure I read it somewhere.
23:28:34 <ehird> oklofog: scrunching cheeks is 5B/s?
23:28:51 <ehird> not really sure how you came to 5 :D
23:28:54 <oklofog> when i say b i mean b, but yeah started thinking it might be a bit too much
23:29:05 <ehird> he can type b five times a second?
23:29:10 <ehird> b is bits, B is bytes
23:29:21 <ehird> hey just checking.
23:29:36 <oklofog> you just thought i meant B by b a few weeks ago
23:29:41 <ehird> BUT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT OUR kiB VS KiB DISPUTE
23:30:13 <ehird> KiB is standardised, but kiB uses the SI-prefix-plus-i logic
23:30:24 <ehird> "A kibibyte (a contraction of kilobinary byte, pronounced KEE-bee-byte) is a unit of information or computer storage, established by the International Electrotechnical Commission in 2000. Its symbol is KiB."
23:30:28 <ehird> but, it's illogical
23:30:28 <AnMaster> and yeah I was going for the second
23:30:37 <ehird> so we come into a dispute of standards vs logic!
23:30:47 <ehird> Although that's not exactly uncommon for standards
23:30:57 <ehird> The only unobjectionable standard I can think of is SI :-P
23:31:35 <ehird> [[In The Art of Computer Programming, Donald Knuth proposed that this unit be called a large kilobyte (abbreviated KKB). Other early proposals included using the Greek letter κ for 1024 bytes (and using k exclusively for 1000), bK, K₂B, and others. "KiB" is the only method that has gained any traction.]]
23:31:39 <oklofog> if you removed all the kilos and shit from SI, it would be nice
23:31:40 <ehird> large kilobyte, KKB
23:31:45 <ehird> worst name and unit ever
23:32:00 <ehird> how ridiculously confusing
23:32:08 <oklofog> then again so would any other system where units make sense
23:32:20 <ehird> (I don't even want to mention K₂B. bK is silly; bKB?)
23:32:42 <oerjan> 1 KKK, a hot white temperature
23:33:13 <ehird> AnMaster: give me a k with the combining dot on top
23:34:17 <ehird> k = 1000, k = 1024
23:34:36 <ehird> Heh, fizzie's line has a tiny dot, but mine doesn't. Must be a very, very small dot.
23:35:18 <ehird> Stupid copy/paste.
23:35:20 <AnMaster> no... I meant 'gah, now I have "a still more glorious dawn awaits, not a sunrise, but a galaxyrise" stuck in my head'
23:35:28 <ehird> I was talking apart from you.
23:35:39 <ehird> (Rephrase that awkwardlikely less-so.)
23:35:44 <fizzie> You could use kͥ -- that's k with the combining latin small letter i on top.
23:36:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, why a damn combining i?
23:36:50 <ehird> Serifed k is 1024.
23:36:53 <ehird> Or sans, whatever.
23:37:33 <fizzie> 640 𝔨𝔅 should be enough for everyone.
23:37:55 <ehird> You should have used the fraktur ... numbers. :P
23:38:50 <fizzie> Unfortunately there are only five sets of numbers; 𝟒𝟜𝟦𝟰𝟺.
23:39:43 <AnMaster> <fizzie> 640 𝔨𝔅 should be enough for everyone. <-- 640 box box?
23:40:04 <fizzie> AnMaster: Fraktur characters again.
23:40:14 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Unfortunately there are only five sets of numbers; 𝟒𝟜𝟦𝟰𝟺. <-- those all display!
23:40:55 <FireFly> kcharselect couldn't find your fraktur chars
23:42:09 <fizzie> FireFly: They're outside the BMP, I think that tool had some sort of limitations there.
23:42:13 <ehird> There's a usenet group called 24hoursupport.helpdesk. Such weird hierarchies.
23:42:23 <ehird> FireFly: KDE is BMP-only
23:42:36 <ehird> (Not even PNG! :-P)
23:45:56 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Autotune5.png <-- why do all sound editing apps use weird UIs like that
23:46:50 <AnMaster> ever heard of NATIVE controls?
23:46:58 <ehird> It looks like real musical equipment, man! Must be usable.
23:47:28 <AnMaster> you know, you complained seamonkey wasn't using that
23:47:41 <ehird> I didn't complain Chrome wasn't; Chrome is fine.
23:47:48 <ehird> Anyway, native controls don't look like real musical equipment.
23:47:52 <ehird> Therefore how can they possibly be used?
23:48:01 <ehird> (I especially love those dials; so *easy* to turn with a mouse!)
23:48:25 <ehird> (((AnMaster: hand)))
23:48:57 <ehird> No, the acronym ends there.
23:49:19 <AnMaster> <ehird> (I especially love those dials; so *easy* to turn with a mouse!) <-- sarcasm?
23:49:45 <ehird> YHBT YHL HAND, naturally.
23:50:00 <ehird> You could, you know, Google it.
23:50:17 <AnMaster> thought it was something you just made up
23:51:19 <AnMaster> okay.... don't see how it applies here
23:51:34 <ehird> <AnMaster> ehird, native controls?
23:51:35 <ehird> <AnMaster> you know, you complained seamonkey wasn't using that
23:51:35 <ehird> <AnMaster> and google chrome
23:51:59 <AnMaster> I'm well aware of that I said that
23:52:05 <oerjan> always control the natives, i say
23:53:11 <oerjan> well if the gui wants to control natives, i won't be against it
23:53:15 <ehird> oerjan: let us weep for AnMaster's now even further impaired sarcasm & joke detection system's degradation
23:53:24 <ehird> his brain is failing.
23:53:35 <ehird> wait, this is a prayer?
23:53:48 <AnMaster> <ehird> Therefore how can they possibly be used? <-- of course that is sarcasm
23:54:03 <AnMaster> didn't* see how trolling was involved
23:54:06 <ehird> you accidentally the apostrophe
23:54:39 <ehird> AnMaster: because you took the sarcasm as serious and responded in turn with examples of how I'm a hypocrite to like non-native controls
23:55:08 <ehird> <ehird> <AnMaster> ehird, native controls?
23:55:08 <ehird> <ehird> <AnMaster> you know, you complained seamonkey wasn't using that
23:55:08 <ehird> <ehird> <AnMaster> and google chrome
23:55:35 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought your "<ehird> Eh?" was that you didn't understand, thus the two extra lines
23:55:55 <ehird> <AnMaster> ehird, native controls? still counts.
23:56:17 <ehird> "If at any point the vision of the observer ended at the surface of a tree, wouldnt the observer only see white? This contradicts the darkness of the night sky and leads many to wonder why we do not see only light from stars in the night sky" --Wikipedia, truly a stellar example.
23:56:27 <oerjan> natives don't count. not beyond three, at any rate.
23:56:40 <ehird> ("If at any point the vision of the observer ended at the surface of a tree, wouldnt the observer only see white" is also a fun example of leaving out some logical steps.)
23:57:08 <AnMaster> I think I know what that is *supposed* to be
23:57:19 <AnMaster> but it is seriously messed up yeah
23:57:39 <AnMaster> I think DMM described the basic idea in a podcast
23:58:28 <AnMaster> ehird, if it is about why the night sky isn't pure white
23:58:57 <ehird> The answer is because the universe isn't infinitely old, but I was more responding to the very shoddy writing.
23:59:49 <ehird> You already answered ??.