00:00:47 <ehird> I don't have ipconfig or winipcfg... uh oh.
00:01:34 <ehird> To Add/Remove Programs we go, to modify the system!
00:01:45 <ehird> You know, Explorer and the Start Menu are quite nice in 95.
00:02:15 * ehird dicks the multimedia sound schemes
00:02:25 <ehird> And sound recorder.
00:02:46 <ehird> And Volume Control...
00:03:51 <ehird> Can't find anything ethernetty, but we'll do that later.
00:04:26 <ehird> I haven't installed TCP/IP.
00:06:26 <ehird> You know, 98 sucked a lot more than 95.
00:07:14 <Gregor> Windows 3.11 for Workgroups RULZ
00:07:35 <ehird> I've been please waiting while my computer shuts down for a long time now, 95.
00:08:54 <ehird> Microsoft Internet Explorer
00:09:02 <ehird> I like what you've done to my splash screen, 95.
00:09:29 <ehird> Apart from a JScript compilation error, MSN is loading.
00:09:50 <ehird> nethack.org, though, is beautiful!
00:09:59 <ehird> The grey background perfectly compliments the black logo.
00:10:39 <ehird> Anyone know how to make the 95 VGA driver not horribly slow? Thought not.
00:14:31 <ehird> Good that the internet's working, though.
00:15:25 <ehird> Oh, OF COURSE AC'97 won't work!
00:16:13 * ehird emulates a Soundblaster 16 instead
00:16:40 <Gregor> There's probably a more suitable video driver than VGA.
00:16:56 <ehird> Yes, and it's in VirtualBox's guest additions, which *probably* don't support Windows 95...
00:17:14 <Gregor> e.g. some generic VESA driver.
00:17:21 <ehird> Yes, I'll give that a try.
00:17:32 <ehird> But wow it's slow. Just shutting down takes forever to draw the screen-dimming checkerboard.
00:17:35 <ehird> I can watch it go by.
00:18:19 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:19:20 <ehird> I wonder what the Gameport Joystick it found is...
00:19:34 <ehird> Oh, no; don't tell me it can't find a file.
00:20:15 <ehird> Would help if I mounted the CD.
00:20:47 <ehird> Oh, Qt isn't hinting more; it's just using a font one point size to small. Like that Grinch fellow.
00:20:54 <ehird> Why hello there, frozen 95.
00:22:18 * ehird is thrown into the 98 booter for the hacked 95 CD, and elects to boot windows with C:\win
00:22:46 <ehird> Well, windows\win.
00:23:04 <ehird> Aww, it can't start like that.
00:24:43 <ehird> Aaand there's Eno's soothing tones.
00:27:00 <ehird> Gregor: Far as I can tell 95 doesn't have any VESA drivers!
00:27:06 <ehird> It does have a selection of VGA ones, though, and an SVGA one.
00:27:24 <ehird> Well, there's "Standard PCI Graphics Adapter (XGA)".
00:27:28 <Gregor> Try SVGA, that should still be better.
00:27:44 <ehird> Whatsabout that PCI XGA one?
00:27:45 <ehird> I'm not sure it's being exposed as PCI.
00:28:05 <ehird> OTHER HARDWARE CONFLICTS DUN DUN DUN
00:28:16 <ehird> Hey an alert sound. It sucks.
00:28:26 <ehird> Windows 95 is being annoyingly usable so far.
00:28:36 <ehird> It's meant to be all complicated and ancient so I can laugh at it.
00:29:17 <ehird> And it crashes like usual, so I'll reboot and it'll install it on start-up.
00:31:12 <ehird> Well it failed at that; it can't find drivers for Unknown Device.
00:31:43 <ehird> Freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze
00:31:58 <ehird> Realise I didn't put the 98 disc in
00:33:42 <ehird> It's currently using PCI/VGA.
00:34:19 <ehird> Apply, restart and here we go.
00:34:39 <ehird> I love how 95 can restart without going through the BIOS.
00:35:02 <ehird> Okay, the XGA driver isn't compatible, but it falled back.
00:35:08 <ehird> ...you know, Xorg doesn't fall back.
00:35:28 <ehird> I will note that Xorg sucks.
00:35:29 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:35:53 <Warrigal> It's impossible for something to do X where X is failing at X.
00:36:14 <ehird> Aaand I can have 800x600 with 16 colours, plus change my font sizes.
00:37:22 <ehird> Works, but is just as slow.
00:39:56 <ehird> Apparently I'm using a Pentium Pro.
00:44:25 <ehird> freenode's java applet fails because there's no document.getElementById :)
00:45:27 <ehird> JScript didn't support object literals, then...
00:47:36 <ehird> mIRC still supports Windows 95?!?!!?!?!
00:50:09 -!- ehird95 has joined.
00:50:25 <ehird95> Am I possibly the prers on using the oldest OS to enter here?
00:50:38 <ehird95> :Harumph, backspace doesn't work.
00:50:51 <ehird95> I don't think anyone's used anythinig older than Windows 95 to come here, anyway.
00:51:05 <ehird95> Greetz from Windows 95 Telnet.
00:51:18 <ehird95> coppro: despite what I told Telnet, freenode's IRC link is anonot a VT100.
00:51:29 <ehird95> It will be dstripping out my backspaces.
00:51:44 <ehird95> Although I'm avoiding using that key, due to it, you nkow, being useless.
00:53:34 <Azstal> mIRC works on windows 95, you know.
00:53:40 <Azstal> although I suppose telnet is preferable to mIRC.
00:53:45 <ehird95> See two lines beofore I entered.
00:53:56 <ehird95> Anyway, mIRc is C is so bloated thseese days.
00:54:07 * Azstal makes a note to be less lazy
00:54:13 -!- Azstal has changed nick to Asztal.
00:54:45 <ehird95> Is there a Telnet option to wait for the whole line beofore ensending?
00:54:53 <ehird95> Is there an option to read the - oh, there it is.
00:55:04 <Asztal> it would feel slightly 95-y if you left it in fixedsys
00:55:05 <ehird> Silly laggy network stack.
00:55:16 <ehird> Asztal: BUT ONLY SLIGHTLT
00:55:49 <ehird95> Any ideas for making the grahics performance less cripplingly slow?
00:58:06 * ehird95 makes 95 not prompt for a network logon on startup, reboots to persist that setting and see if it works
00:58:15 <ehird95> Yes, I did just type that using literal Ctrl-As.
00:58:27 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:58:55 <ehird> Actually it prompts me for a username and password, but I can skip that to disable it.
00:59:52 <ehird> Hmm, it wants a username though.
01:00:02 <ehird> So what was my username before this, I wonder?
01:04:22 <ehird> "BLASTER=A220 I5 D1 H5 T6"
01:05:03 <coppro> the Ig Nobels are on :)
01:06:01 <ehird> the ig nobels vaguely irriate me
01:06:30 <ehird> it groups valid research with homeopaths, and says to the valid researchers "your work seems amusing to the common man! harde har har!"
01:12:14 <coppro> the Rule of Funny wins
01:14:34 <ehird> nobody talks about windows 95 on google :(
01:16:38 <Warrigal> ehird: I always use literal Ctrl-As to type my ACTIONs when doing IRC via telnet.
01:16:55 <ehird> Warrigal: Yes, but this is Windows Telnet.
01:16:59 <ehird> Graphical. Weird thing.
01:17:21 <ehird> "If you want True color or high resolution, you need to download special drivers.
01:17:21 <ehird> http://www.geocities.com/bearwindows/vbe9x.htm"
01:18:14 <ehird> Universal VESA/VBE Video Display Driver
01:18:14 <ehird> (for Windows 9x x86 Architecture)
01:20:43 <ehird> Some old version of Opera is likely to be the snappiest, most compatible browser for this, right?
01:21:42 <Sgeo_> What version of IE is on there, if any?
01:22:06 <Sgeo_> IE4 doesn't work with msn.com, incidentally
01:22:16 <ehird> I can probably get IE 5.5 or something, max.
01:22:18 <Sgeo_> What OSes were IE2 and 1 for?
01:22:27 <ehird> 3.0 or 3.11 or something
01:22:29 <Sgeo_> I got IE6 working on Win98
01:23:24 * ehird reboots, installs the third-party VESA driver, yay?
01:24:16 <ehird> Heh, IE 3 can't do about:blank
01:24:35 <ehird> C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\BLANK.HTM
01:24:36 <Sgeo_> I remember playing with IE's about:some_html
01:25:16 <ehird> You know, by "IE is a part of the OS" I think they meant "we forgot to make folders, so we have our HTM files in C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM and stuff, and we can't figure out how to extract all the files".
01:25:30 <ehird> And lo, Marketing went: "And this is Good."
01:26:20 <ehird> I wish my mouse wheel worked.
01:26:24 <Sgeo_> I thought IE wasn't considered part of the OS until 98?
01:27:38 <ehird> "Slow driver operation when user scroll, move or resize a window."
01:27:44 <ehird> Sgeo_: Probably true
01:28:07 <ehird> Sgeo_: It's certainly an OS *component* in 95, though.
01:28:16 <ehird> It even changes the boot splash to include "Microsoft Internet Explorer".
01:28:56 * Sgeo_ remembers changing his bootscreen to Userfriendly stuff
01:29:54 <ehird> Should have changed it to your desktop background, say with a fake window saying "Starting Windows...". It'd feel like the graphics have initialised earlier, providing that your resolution was low enough that it didn't look all pixelated. :P
01:30:08 <ehird> "It's so fast now!"
01:32:00 <ehird> Cool, 95 can't handle PNGs by default.
01:34:40 <ehird> Well, PNG came out in 1997 I think.
01:35:39 <pikhq> Sgeo_: The service pack for 95 included IE.
01:35:51 <pikhq> Made some rather massive patches.
01:36:03 <Sgeo_> ehird, clearly, we should all switch back to .gif!
01:36:06 <pikhq> (largely for the sake of "ITS PART OF THE OS!")
01:36:34 <Sgeo_> .gif has wider support than .png!
01:36:45 <Sgeo_> (The patent on GIFs ran out, right?)
01:37:07 <ehird> Well, on the algorithm.
01:37:21 <ehird> Hmm, I need to unzip things.
01:37:29 <ehird> I guess WinZip is my best option for 95...
01:45:04 <ehird> 7-Zip lists its first working version as 98; worth the risk, I wonder?
01:46:40 <ehird> Apparently some older 7-Zips worked on 95, so.
01:46:52 <ehird> An older WinZip might actually be lighter, though.
01:47:35 <ehird> It's impossible to use sourceforge's download site with IE 3, so old WinZip it is.
01:55:08 <ehird> "Tight integration with the Windows 95 shell"
01:55:11 <ehird> nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo :P
01:56:41 <ehird> WinZip 6.2, circa 1996.
01:56:55 <ehird> It looks like every WinZip version.
01:57:28 <ehird> "CompuServe mail: 70056,241"
01:57:41 <ehird> "Bringing the convenience of Windows to the use of ZIP files"
01:57:55 <ehird> Ooh, and it still has that Path column instead of showing a hierarchical view.
01:58:05 <ehird> Why do they do that?
02:00:16 <ehird> Driver installed with a double-click, files deletes.
02:02:03 <ehird> Okay, not *quite* double-clicking; think I need to use it as a Have Disk.
02:03:17 <ehird> Ohnoes, an error D:
02:03:36 <ehird> Well, I'll reboot and hope for the best.
02:04:08 <ehird> Pow! Kazap! That's some fast display technology!
02:04:25 <ehird> 256 color?!!?! Let's use... AWESOME COLOURW^W32-bit
02:04:58 <ehird> It only goes to 800x600; probably because of the 256-colour thing. Should be able to bunk that up post-32bitizing.
02:05:10 <ehird> Can VESA only do 800x600?
02:08:59 <ehird> "Users employing the Windows 95 operating system who want to install Opera 9.5 are therefore advised to download and install the free Windows Sockets 2.0 update from Microsoft."
02:09:09 <ehird> They... still supported 95 as of last version?
02:12:00 * ehird installs Rain, then sets about finding a browser, IRC client
02:16:09 <ehird> And so my fan spins down; thanks, Rain.
02:21:55 * ehird installs IntelliPoint drivers 4.01 for Windows 95
02:21:55 <ehird> Should include Wheel Mouse drivers, which should enable the mouse wheel.
02:22:50 <ehird> ...apparently these MOUSE DRIVERS require a newer IE.
02:23:17 <ehird> I've been talking to myself for an awful long while; anyone there?
02:24:02 <ehird> Any ideas how the fuck some mouse drivers for Windows 95 could require IE in any way?
02:24:11 <ehird> Or is it just forcing me to install it because of bullshit, and lying to me about why?
02:25:44 <ehird> Heh, it's unable to launch IE5setup.exe anyway.
02:25:59 <ehird> I'll Just Use An Older Version(TM).
02:35:46 <ehird> I think they've removed the fucking drivers.
02:50:37 <oklopol> i have 40-50 math problems a week, plus a few hundred pages to read
02:50:53 <oerjan> ah the overachieving thing
02:51:26 * coppro has lots of work he should be doing
02:51:41 <coppro> such as doing a bonus assignment to bring my test mark in Bio up to 100% :D
02:52:21 -!- ehird_ has joined.
02:52:27 <oklopol> really my competitiveness is completely rational, in automata theory, i was disappointed there was no problem only i had done
02:52:29 <ehird_> <ehird> he was here before oerjan
02:52:31 <ehird_> <ehird> yesterday i think
02:52:40 <oklopol> didn't matter i was the only one to have done them all
02:53:01 <oerjan> ehird_: i'm sure you quoted that from months ago :D
02:53:14 <oklopol> i was here this morning i think
02:54:06 <oerjan> well i was probably sleeping. as i will soon.
02:57:52 <ehird_> hmm formatting one of those extraneous disk drives instantly closes virtualbox
02:57:58 <ehird_> i guess they're non-floppy things that it mistakes for floppies :)
02:58:04 <ehird_> god windows 95 is so quick to boot up
02:58:10 <coppro> hmm... this pizza guy is bad, but he doesn't set a record
02:58:45 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
02:58:54 <oklopol> also i was disappointed the guy in the wheelchair who can only mumble and bite his arm was actually just an average student, i had my hawking fantasies
03:00:12 * oerjan now has fantasies of him being a pizza guy on the side
03:00:13 <ehird_> oerjan: you mean moutharm
03:00:56 <oerjan> how do you know i suffer from brachiophagia -----###
03:01:17 <oklopol> so, see you later, need to go do stuff ->
03:01:50 <oerjan> only skin deep, but still
03:02:22 <coppro> funnily enough, CSS level 2 isn't out but CSS level 3 is already being drafted
03:05:31 <ehird_> it's only css 2.1 that isn't out
03:08:53 <ehird_> gah, I like Windows 95
03:11:37 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
03:12:05 -!- Asztal has joined.
03:12:10 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
03:12:15 -!- Sgeo__ has joined.
03:29:40 <ehird_> Please Tell Me Why You Are Still Useing Windows 95 WHEN You Can Buy a Recon XP Machine Of A Decent Spec for 75 Pounds Why Are U Still F**king Around With 95 Well Ok I Still Have A 98 Machine But Thats ON 24 7 for my email inbox for work it sa pice of s**t but i only need 4 emails --Annoyances.org Windows 95 forum
03:31:34 <oerjan> clearly that guy has the annoyance part spot on
03:31:58 <ehird_> it's like idiot poetry.
03:46:07 <coppro> ehird_: you weren't entirely correct about Intel drivers sucking less that ATI. Less stuff works, but the stuff that works works better
03:46:10 <coppro> s/less that/more than/
03:48:39 <ehird_> anyway, it's still shit slow
03:49:21 <coppro> and I can run compositing and OGL at the same time
04:02:13 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
04:06:14 -!- Pthing has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
04:10:54 -!- ehird_ has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
04:10:55 -!- rodgort has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
04:10:55 -!- Slereah_ has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
04:10:55 -!- pikhq has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
04:11:08 -!- Leonidas has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
04:11:09 -!- Asztal has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
04:11:09 -!- Warrigal has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
04:12:43 -!- Asztal has joined.
04:12:43 -!- ehird_ has joined.
04:12:43 -!- rodgort has joined.
04:12:43 -!- Leonidas has joined.
04:12:43 -!- pikhq has joined.
04:12:43 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
04:12:43 -!- Warrigal has joined.
04:13:19 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird.
04:13:28 * ehird upgrades MSIE 3.0 to MSIE 3.02 to get the new WinInet.dll for Opera 9
04:14:09 * ehird sees if he can persuade opera 10 to run
04:14:35 <ehird> perhaps with the classic installer
04:14:39 <ehird> if that doesn't work, opera 9.64 classic installer
04:17:21 <ehird> "Warning: Using this option requires all users on this computer to be administrators."
04:17:32 <ehird> Users? Administrators? What do you speak of, clearly modern program!
04:18:26 <ehird> "The system library Msimg32.dll is missing or too old, so certain transparency effects will be slow and possibly not drawn corectly. Obtaining the library from a Windows ME installation and placing it in your Windows system directory will fix this."
04:18:42 <ehird> Well gee, I don't think I'm going to be infecting this VM with the virus you speak of... :P
04:19:02 <ehird> It, uh, holy shit.
04:19:18 <ehird> Like, works works.
04:19:44 <coppro> nothing from ME is good EVER
04:20:04 <ehird> You've gotta wonder why they bother coding for it.
04:20:08 -!- augur has joined.
04:20:16 <ehird> SPEAKING OF BITCHES HI AUGUR
04:20:37 <ehird> ha, it really works properly
04:20:42 <ehird> reddit.com renders in a few seconds smoothly
04:21:44 <ehird> For my next trick, I'm going to fucking - wait for it - try to install Flash.
04:21:54 <ehird> I WILL CONQUER YOU, WINDOWS 95!
04:22:00 <ehird> I WILL FIND WHAT YOU CANNOT DO, AND I WILL SPIT AT THEE!
04:22:52 <ehird> "Windows 98/ME" WELL THAT'S BASICALLY LIKE 95!
04:23:04 <ehird> Heh, no Flash 10 for me, oh no, only 9
04:23:41 <ehird> Unsupported operating system.
04:23:44 <ehird> Well I'll just go for the previous version!
04:26:17 <ehird> Note to self: Make it so that hovering over Opera's menu doesn't highlight them; other programs don't do that,.
04:34:06 -!- ehird95 has joined.
04:34:20 <ehird95> I'm using Opera 10 on Windows 95.
04:34:51 <ehird95> <ehird95> VERSION Opera/9.80 (Windows 95; U; en) Presto/2.2.15 Version/10.00
04:36:26 <ehird95> I ought to see if mIRC would run better... hey, why is Opera in my system tray?
04:37:34 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
04:37:46 <ehird95> Hmm... how can I remove it...
04:45:08 -!- augur has joined.
04:46:06 <augur> next itll be ehird98
04:46:33 <ehird95> Naw. 98 is boring, but 2000 is fun. Me is just oh god.
04:46:41 <ehird95> augur: also, I'm actually using Windows 95 to type this line.
04:47:15 <ehird95> I'm using Opera 10, which also renders modern webpages really snappily just fine. Admittedly 95 is being virtualised under a system with a 2.1GHz Core 2 Duo.
04:47:21 <ehird95> The VM only has 64MiB of RAM though.
04:47:37 <ehird95> Also, my scroll wheel works.
04:47:52 -!- ehird95 has left (?).
04:48:22 -!- ehird95 has joined.
04:49:00 <ehird95> Anyway, I actually had to install drivers for Microsoft mice, but they enable the scroll wheel just fine...
04:53:38 <ehird95> So, the latest mIRC should also work with 95.
05:01:11 <ehird95> I don't suppose anyone knows of a good tool to measure memory and CPU usage by individual processes in a list for windows 9x? Thought not.
05:10:14 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
05:10:53 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
05:40:46 -!- ehird95 has joined.
05:46:24 <lament> I wonder if ehird95 will say something.
05:48:10 -!- ehird95 has quit.
05:48:26 -!- ehird95 has joined.
05:50:06 <ehird> I wonder why opening a DOS prompt garbles everything.
05:50:43 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
06:30:23 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
06:42:16 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
06:43:30 -!- ehird95 has joined.
06:43:57 <ehird95> with the glorious power of the registry, I have enabled full colour icons!
06:45:51 <ehird95> I was limited to 800x600 because of the setting of the monitor to svga 800x600
06:46:19 <ehird95> now i can have up to 1600x1200!
06:49:19 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
06:56:18 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
06:59:54 * Rugxulo wonders why ehird is obsessed with visual effects ...
07:14:09 * Rugxulo is brainstorming for suitable words using A, A, T ("skip to next line" idiom in ETA)
07:15:01 <Rugxulo> can't use any of the following before those, though: HTAOINSE
07:17:41 <Rugxulo> "apathy", "a cat", "Paul Blart", ...
07:18:24 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
07:39:07 -!- SimonRC has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
07:46:37 -!- ehird95 has joined.
07:47:20 <ehird95> Rugxulo: i'm not "obsessed with visual effects"
07:47:29 <ehird95> it's just that the 16-color icons for modern programs are reaaaaaaaaaaally ugly
07:47:42 <ehird95> and it's just one registry change to fix the *artificially limited* colors
07:48:13 <Rugxulo> I don't think they sell Plus! anymore
07:48:36 <ehird95> Rugxulo: yeah, they don't sell Windows 95 any more, either; but that's what I did the hack on because when they made 95 they were trying to sell Plus!.
07:48:39 <Rugxulo> besides, I think Vista is different
07:48:55 <ehird95> do you realise that the icons were 16-color before...
07:49:18 <ehird95> I was fixing an intentional deficiency in Windows 95 so that the icons for modern programs were legible; it took about 10 seconds.
07:49:20 <Sgeo__> I remember playing games that came with Windows 98 Plus!
07:49:41 <ehird95> Nobody makes 16-color icons nowadays, so they're illegible blobs.
07:50:05 * Sgeo__ wonders if Windows 98 Plus! would work in Xp
07:50:32 <Rugxulo> MS couldn't even get Vista out the door without breaking MSVC 2k5 etc.
07:51:04 <ehird95> Anyway, I've had no luck getting a widescreen resolution, though Nathan of toastytech.com used Windows 95 with a widescreen monitor as his main OS as recently as a few years ago, iirc
07:51:14 <ehird95> But that's with a Voodoo card; I just have this lowly VESA thing.
07:51:33 <ehird95> Still, it's pushing 1280x1024 at the moment, with a small black bar at the top and bottom and big ones to the sides.
07:51:41 <ehird95> The graphics performance is... not stellar.
07:52:00 <ehird95> But menus and windows and such pop up instantly, and Opera 10 is more or less usable when it isn't apparently using up all the CPU.
07:52:28 <Rugxulo> I'd be surprised if Opera 10 did that, but who knows ...
07:53:01 * Rugxulo has been using Chrome a lot lately, so has been neglecting Opera, Firefox, etc.
07:53:16 <ehird95> Rugxulo: I can't use Chrome because it requires 2000/XP and I'm using 95.
07:53:36 <Rugxulo> even Firefox 2.0.0.18 (or whatever) still works on Win95, right?
07:53:49 <ehird95> Besides, Opera 10 supports more stuff and is waaaay more snappy.
07:53:49 <Rugxulo> but yeah, if you're using an older computer without multi-core, a lot of stuff won't be as fast
07:54:07 <Rugxulo> I'm 99% sure that 2.0.0.18 supports Win98 at least (not Win95 also??)
07:54:09 <ehird95> Oh, I have two cores; it's just that I'm using an OS that thinks I'm running the top-of-the-line processor, a Pentium Pro.
07:54:18 <Rugxulo> Win95 is not dual core friendly
07:54:20 <ehird95> Rugxulo: 2 drops support for 95
07:54:23 <Rugxulo> ah, VM, no wonder it's slow
07:54:32 <ehird95> Nowadays VMs run the code directly on the CPU
07:54:49 <ehird95> Only the hardware is emulated
07:54:52 <Rugxulo> not all of it, and even then that's only with virtualization extensions
07:54:56 <ehird95> And it doesn't take much to push some pixels
07:55:00 <Sgeo__> I still don't understand how Win95 and Win98 are so different. I know that a lot of stuff runs on 98 but not 95, but WHY?
07:55:00 <ehird95> It's just that the VESA driver is, well, slow
07:55:13 <ehird95> Rugxulo: Of course I'm using the virtualization extensions
07:55:20 <ehird95> VMs are worthlessly slow without them
07:55:34 <Rugxulo> slow is still better than nothing
07:55:37 <ehird95> Sgeo__: Win98 replaces explorer with IE. Most else is artificial.
07:55:51 <ehird95> Rugxulo: I don't *need* to run Win95; if I had to have it so slow I probably wouldn't bother
07:56:00 * Rugxulo doesn't know all the differences either, but Win98SE had a different driver model, no?
07:56:12 <Rugxulo> why are you running Win95, then?
07:56:40 <Rugxulo> by itself? or do you have apps too?
07:56:43 <ehird95> It's quite modern - can run an impressive amount of Windows software - and uses the same basic GUI paradigm as in the ever-popular XP - and yet it's really simple.
07:57:21 <ehird95> which comes on a CD and bundles IE 3
07:57:35 <ehird95> I upgraded IE from 3.0 to 3.02 to get a new DLL file for Opera 10
07:57:48 <Rugxulo> heh, my copy was an "upgrade", came with two floppies for Win 3.0 and like 16 more 1.68 MB overformatted floppies for Win95 itself (pre-OSR2.5)
07:57:48 <Sgeo__> Ugh, this song is not how my nostalgic memory remembers it, but it has to be the right song
07:57:59 <ehird95> Software I'm using: Microsoft IntelliPoint 3.something (for MS mice, but it makes the mouse wheel work)
07:58:03 <Rugxulo> I'm very surprised Opera 10 works
07:58:15 <Rugxulo> actually, I was kinda pissed when a lot of people dropped support for Win9x fairly recently
07:58:27 <Rugxulo> (Firefox, Pelles C, soon Cygwin, etc.)
07:58:28 <ehird95> Rugxulo: codewise 9x is a bitch.
07:58:41 <ehird95> I'm just glad that the Opera and mIRC devs are crazy.
07:58:41 <Rugxulo> more than DOS? doubt it ;-)
07:58:49 <ehird95> With DOS you just poke the hardware.
07:58:58 <ehird95> With 9x you poke the hardware through a buggy and fucked-up additional layer.
07:59:14 <Rugxulo> you can use the wheel in DOS too (CuteMouse)
07:59:23 <ehird95> Opera 10 is stunning for the OS, though; it can render modern pages in seconds
07:59:33 <Rugxulo> very very lucky that it works there
07:59:57 <ehird95> it's still an officially supported platform, and they have knowledge-base articles about it for fixing problems as recently as opera 9
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:00:09 <ehird95> explaining that you have to install winsock2
08:00:15 <ehird95> so some crazy people must be using opera on windows 95
08:00:42 <Rugxulo> heck, even some things (e.g. VirtualBox since 1.52 or so) don't even run on Win2k !!
08:00:46 <ehird95> gotta wonder if the execs have got word of that... don't think they'd be so fond of spending so many resources for that 0.0001% :-)
08:00:48 <Rugxulo> so getting Win9x compatibility is even harder!
08:01:07 <ehird95> If I developed Windows software I'd never think about supporting 9x, just for my sanity
08:01:27 <Rugxulo> well, you're too young ... if you grew up with it, it might be different (nostalgia, experience, etc.)
08:01:30 <ehird95> I don't really care if support is dropped; this is a fun historical curiosity and something to put on less beefy machines, not a hyper-duper-workstation-2009
08:01:35 <ehird95> and I can always use old versions
08:01:54 <ehird95> Rugxulo: Hey, I grew up with 3.11.
08:02:00 <Rugxulo> Win9x is limited in max. RAM anyways, and SATA drives are either hard or impossible to get working, so it's definitely not for new machines
08:02:12 <Rugxulo> needs patches just to run newer Firefox or Doom 3 or whatever ...
08:02:16 <ehird95> (98 was out in the year I got a computer, so it and 95 must have been too expensive :-P)
08:02:25 <fizzie> 3.11 with win32s is the one that's a bit hard to find support for nowadays.
08:02:37 <Rugxulo> nothing runs on Win32s, I looked (a year or so ago) ;-)
08:02:44 <ehird95> Rugxulo: limited in max ram? isn't it just to like 2GiB
08:02:55 <ehird95> I wouldn't call that a huge limitation because, you know, it's 95
08:03:06 <ehird95> I'm running a smoooooooooooooooooooth workstation here with 64MiB of virtual ram
08:03:14 <ehird95> Don't think it's swapped once :P
08:03:15 <Rugxulo> one guy uses the other gig of his RAM for a big RAM drive ;-)
08:03:31 <ehird95> Put the swap file on that RAM drive.
08:03:36 <ehird95> Bazam, extra, slightly slower RAM!
08:03:50 <Rugxulo> something like that, I forget the details
08:04:10 <Rugxulo> and actually I'm not sure if any (most?) MS OSes even support PAE besides the server versions (maybe)
08:04:24 <ehird95> Anyway, you can actually use disks as big as you want with 95; iirc 64GB was claimed as the limit but apparently 160GB and the like work just fine
08:04:37 <Rugxulo> 137 GB without some fix, I think
08:04:54 <Rugxulo> even Win98 had a bug where it would crash if you left it running for like 48 days
08:05:03 <Rugxulo> (obviously no one ever did, heh)
08:05:16 <ehird95> Wonder if suspend/resume counts, or hibernate/resume
08:05:27 <ehird95> If so then it could be semi-relevant on a laptop.
08:05:27 <Rugxulo> besides servers, I doubt if anybody would want to
08:05:34 <ehird95> Then again Windows crashes more frequently than that anyway.
08:05:44 <Rugxulo> not sure if Win9x supports ACPI
08:05:56 <ehird95> As a plus, though, 95 boots to desktop in, oh, 15 seconds?
08:06:01 <fizzie> Or 2^32 milliseconds, if you prefer.
08:06:11 <fizzie> 49.71026962962962962962
08:06:23 <ehird95> Although if it wants to ScanDisk because you crashed, which is when boot time matters most, it takes about a minute or so.
08:06:31 <ehird95> Which is irritating, as it refuses to let you skip it.
08:06:31 <Rugxulo> XP was allegedly designed to boot to GUI in 30 secs. (but that doesn't count responsiveness)
08:06:41 <Rugxulo> Vista is a lot more responsive quicker
08:06:53 <Rugxulo> (allegedly, hard to compare when my XP machine is single core and this one is dual)
08:06:55 <ehird95> The GUI of 95 is very well polished
08:07:12 <ehird95> I'd say it's more focused than Mac OS, apart from the settings dialogs, which are a bit sprawling.
08:07:14 <Rugxulo> ehird, that's the price you pay for FAT vs. NTFS
08:08:10 <ehird95> brb, uninstaller wants me to reboot :P
08:08:19 -!- ehird95 has quit.
08:10:00 -!- ehird95 has joined.
08:10:04 <fizzie> That win95 pinball works on win32s, they say. And I do remember having some programs that required win32s.
08:10:25 <ehird95> Argh, I think I'm going to have to write a little program that runs in the background and, if you click in the bottom-left corner, opens the start menu.
08:10:40 <fizzie> See, there's a whole list of win32s-compatible programs: http://www.i24.com/en/win32s/tips/w32slist.htm
08:10:44 <ehird95> 2000 and XP do it, even though the button seems to stop before then; it's so annoying to see a corner being used without Fitt's Law.
08:11:12 <ehird95> It must be easy to get all mouse clicks in a certain position, right? No permissions or anything to deal with.
08:11:35 <Rugxulo> fizzie, I mean it's hard to find freeware Win32s apps anymore
08:11:52 <Rugxulo> OpenWatcom still supports all that stuff, though (ironically)
08:12:40 <ehird95> One option for Windows 95's sharp GUI + less horrifically broken internals is Windows NT 4.0, which is... just that.
08:12:40 <Rugxulo> seen that list, not huge, most of that is hard to find, barely works, or ain't free
08:12:57 <ehird95> NT kernel running the Windows 95 shell.
08:13:00 <Rugxulo> Win NT 4.0 needs higher requirements and only goes up to DX3
08:13:12 <Rugxulo> and no LFNs for DOS apps (without TSR / DLL combo)
08:13:22 <ehird95> That DX3 thing is an issue, but higher system requirements is kinda irrelevant; they're all rock-bottom.
08:13:33 <ehird95> Also, how many DOS apps actually use LFNs?
08:13:37 <Sgeo__> Infinite width buttons!
08:13:42 <Rugxulo> irrelevant now but not then
08:13:46 <Rugxulo> how many? all DJGPPv2 apps!
08:13:50 <ehird95> Yes, but I'm talking now. :P
08:14:05 <ehird95> Also, how many are there of those? 3?
08:14:24 <ehird95> Mostly unix stuff, though, yah?
08:14:26 <Rugxulo> even a lot of FreeDOS' 16-bit stuff supports LFNs
08:14:43 <fizzie> DJGPP was pretty popular among hobbyist-freeware-developery people.
08:14:48 <fizzie> What with being, you know, free.
08:14:56 <Rugxulo> free and good (POSIX, GCC, etc.)
08:14:56 <fizzie> My first C compiler, I think.
08:15:15 <Rugxulo> current DJGPP + GCC beats OpenWatcom hands down
08:15:15 <ehird95> Yay, some bullshit I can't delete.
08:15:45 <fizzie> Of course all the "real" coders had a copy of Watcom with a bit shady background.
08:16:07 <ehird95> Speaking of shady backgrounds, I wonder if I can get Microsoft to sue me for pirating this 95.
08:16:15 <Rugxulo> GCC wasn't as good until the ECGS merger (1999), then it really took off
08:16:17 <fizzie> Using dos4gw instead of cwsdpmi is the true mark of a professional.
08:16:23 <ehird95> Like, throw rocks in Bill's window with "I PIRATED 95" etched into them.
08:16:39 <Rugxulo> dos4gw is desperately buggy
08:16:45 <Rugxulo> and big and bloated, but it mostly works
08:17:08 <fizzie> ehird: MURDER doesn't have a STATUTE of LIMITATIONS; I'm sure they'd sue you.
08:17:10 <Rugxulo> Doom used Watcom/DOS4GW but Quake used DJGPPv2
08:17:10 * Sgeo__ has a legal copy of Win98 >.>
08:17:22 <ehird95> Win98! It's like 95 but with IE craptergration!
08:17:31 <Rugxulo> ehird, even if they did, I could just send you like my 18-floppy copy (heh) and they'd probably shut up
08:17:33 <ehird95> 98SE! It's like 98 except it's totally new!
08:17:50 * Rugxulo seriously prefers FreeDOS over Win9x
08:18:01 <ehird95> Rugxulo: I'm actually considering reinstalling from the floppy copy (don't copy that floppy); it doesn't force you to install IE, you see.
08:18:04 <Sgeo__> Does the 95 disk have the Microsoft Comic Chat or wahtever it's called?
08:18:13 <ehird95> Sgeo__: not sure. I can look if you want.
08:18:34 <Rugxulo> dare I ask, but what host OS are you running Win95 on?
08:18:36 <fizzie> Given that the licenses don't really expire, I think I have a "legal" copy of win95 (and possibly some out of {3.11, 3.1, 3.0, 1.02} too, I don't quite remember where those came from) too.
08:18:53 <Rugxulo> VirtualBox is good (although not as much with 16-bit code)
08:18:53 * Sgeo__ wonders what Windows 1.02 was like
08:19:03 <ehird95> Host OS is Ubuntu 9.10 alpha6.
08:19:07 * Rugxulo never used it but has seen the pics, ugh
08:19:10 <ehird95> Running on a late-2006 iMac.
08:19:14 <Rugxulo> 9.10 beta was released recently
08:19:17 <fizzie> Hey, EGA graphics and everything.
08:19:24 <ehird95> Rugxulo: That'll just come in the updates.
08:19:40 <fizzie> And Win1 did support windowing! Though not overlapping windows, obviously, just split-screening.
08:19:42 <Sgeo__> VirtualBox fullscreen doesn't change the host resolution in Windows, boo
08:19:47 <ehird95> I've had this iMac since 2006 and OS X only started to annoy me recently.
08:19:59 <ehird95> 95 actually still has Program Manager!
08:20:07 <Rugxulo> fizzie, I know ... not exactly useful IMHO
08:20:28 <fizzie> Rugxulo: Well, you could also minimize programs, so it makes some sense. Maybe. A bit.
08:21:02 <Sgeo__> ...I just tried progman in XP..
08:21:17 <ehird95> "WHERE DO YOU WANT TO GO TODAY?" -- \Sampler\Videos\200bttrf
08:21:34 <Sgeo__> So far, it didn't complain about it not existing, but nothing's starting
08:22:05 <fizzie> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4e/Windows1.0.png is a very representable screenshot of Windows 1; that's what it looked like.
08:22:14 <ehird95> A Weezer video on the 95 CD? Microsoft tricked me into downloading a Weezer video.
08:22:43 <fizzie> The green bar at the bottom edge gets icons for minimized programs.
08:23:02 <ehird95> Sgeo__: can't find comic chat.
08:23:14 <Sgeo__> anything with chat? I don't remember the exact name
08:23:21 <fizzie> Anyway, I seem to remember that 1.0 was just monochrome, and the 1.02 update got us EGA colors, but I guess it's also possible we just used 1.0 with the monochrome Hercules card and the 1.02 was on another computer with EGA graphics.
08:23:21 <ehird95> Just a telephone-calling application.
08:23:52 <fizzie> "Comic Chat was released with the full downloads of Internet Explorer 3, 4, and 5, as well as in the Windows 98 and Windows 2000 distributions."
08:24:05 <ehird95> I just installed the Typical 3.02; thank god not the Full.
08:24:19 <fizzie> What, don't you want all the bells and whistles?
08:24:51 <fizzie> Did it come with NetMeeting?
08:25:08 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
08:25:30 * Sgeo__ remembers playing with NetMeeting
08:25:37 -!- ehird95 has joined.
08:25:47 <ehird95> Gah, I really need to remember that opening DOS apps breaks this thing.
08:26:01 <fizzie> Didn't they rename Comic Chat to "Microsoft Chat"?
08:26:43 <ehird95> It makes the display go all funny and I have to hard-reset it.
08:26:51 <Sgeo__> "Microsoft Comic Chat installed a custom font, Microsoft Comic Sans, that users could use in other applications and documents."
08:27:01 <ehird95> Rugxulo: it happens with any DOS thingy.
08:27:04 <fizzie> I remember the wfw3.11 "WinPopup" messaging. It's like IM, except not quite.
08:27:18 <Rugxulo> must be a bad setting in your .PIF
08:27:32 <Rugxulo> not sure, dosprmpt.pif perhaps
08:27:45 <fizzie> Haha, "There is also a port to linux with an extended feature called LinPopUp, which allows adding Linux computers to the set. Linpopup is an X Window graphical port of Winpopup, and a package for Debian linux. It runs over Samba. Linpopup does not have to run all the time, can run minimized, and its messages are encrypted with a strong cypher." That's among the most useless things I can imagine.
08:27:54 <ehird95> Rugxulo: and how would I fix it? :P
08:28:24 <ehird95> No it's not, I just tried. :P
08:28:53 <ehird95> Start->Run "pifedit C:\windows\dosprmpt.pif".
08:29:15 <ehird95> cannot find the file pifedit or one of its components.
08:29:53 <ehird95> It just can't find the file.
08:29:55 <ehird95> That's the error it gives. :P
08:29:59 <Rugxulo> not that, the screen mess-up thingy
08:30:11 <fizzie> "To correct this problem, you must modify either dosprmpt.pif, command.pif or 4dos.pif, whichever is present in your Windows directory.
08:30:11 <fizzie> In Windows 3.1 and NT you must use pifedit.exe to modify them. In Windows 95 you can press ALT+ENTER on the PIF files or on command.com/4dos.com directly."
08:30:23 <ehird95> I was using the VGA driver then
08:30:28 <ehird95> so the VESA driver broke something
08:30:40 <ehird95> fizzie: Well I can't use anything that runs in a dos prompt.
08:30:41 <fizzie> Though that was just for removing the startup path, maybe not for twiddling the actual pif file contents.
08:31:18 <fizzie> Yes, I remember that much.
08:31:33 <fizzie> Was there a special properties dialog for pif files? There might even have been.
08:31:39 <ehird95> memory is auto/not protected; auto; auto; uses hma; auto
08:31:43 <ehird95> not configured for expanded memory
08:31:54 <ehird95> screen is window; default; display toolbar; restore settings on startup;
08:32:18 <ehird95> misc is allow screensaver; no quickedit or exclusive mode; don't always suspend; warn if still active; medium idle sensitivity; fast pasting; all windows shortcut keys
08:32:33 <ehird95> program is MS-DOS Prompt; C:\WINDOWS\command.com; no shortcut key; run in normal window; close on exit
08:32:36 <Rugxulo> turn off "window" and use full-screen if possible
08:32:43 <fizzie> Ah, the whole EMS/XMS mess was also hilarious.
08:32:47 <ehird95> I'll try, but that's kind of annoying.
08:33:19 <ehird95> Rugxulo: normal window/maximized/mninimized
08:35:20 -!- ehird95_ has joined.
08:35:20 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
08:35:24 -!- ehird95_ has changed nick to ehird95.
08:35:38 <ehird95> I like the part where it crashed
08:35:54 <Rugxulo> most didn't ... hence why NT is now prevalent ;-)
08:36:15 <ehird95> haha, that reddit.com was meant to go in opera
08:36:21 <ehird95> I saw the location bar, split out
08:36:27 <ehird95> each pixel had hundreds of pixels around it on my screen
08:36:36 <ehird95> so it was sort of like a weird zooming-in
08:36:41 <ehird95> but i couldn't get it to change
08:36:47 <ehird95> still, it shows that only the graphics are effing up
08:36:58 <Rugxulo> VirtualBox isn't very stable in some ways
08:37:06 <Rugxulo> and its DOS compatibility is weaker than other VMs
08:37:24 <ehird95> please do suggest something better that runs on linux :)
08:37:47 <Rugxulo> dunno, haven't really tried too much on Linux
08:37:53 <Rugxulo> maybe Bochs, but it'll probably be loads slower
08:38:02 <Rugxulo> but it's been improved a lot lately
08:38:07 <ehird95> bochs is possibly the slowest thing that claims to emulate an x86
08:38:14 <ehird95> nobody really knows, though; it's never performed any instructions
08:38:24 <ehird95> (also, its configuration format is a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuge pain)
08:38:37 <Rugxulo> yes, I also dislike the config crapola
08:38:59 <ehird95> what's windows 95 without rick rolling.
08:39:20 <Rugxulo> so you're just running Win95 for laughs?
08:39:36 <ehird95> yeah. i am kinda tempted to roll on over to ebay and purchase like an X20 or something
08:39:44 <ehird95> really old tiny thinkpad and put win95 on it :P
08:40:03 <Rugxulo> nah, if you want something like that, get a netbook and run DOSEMU or WINE
08:40:07 <ehird95> (9 didn't; I don't remember if I tried 8)
08:40:13 <ehird95> Rugxulo: netbooks are shoddy pieces of crap :(
08:40:22 <ehird95> and they lack retro hardware... in its place bad hardware
08:40:22 <Rugxulo> well, so is a used laptop :-P
08:40:32 <ehird95> thinkpads are beautiful sculptures of hardware.
08:40:39 <Rugxulo> if the used laptop actually works, then yes, good
08:40:49 <Rugxulo> but new OSes and old hardware aren't friends (and vice versa)
08:41:10 <ehird95> so then what's the conflict with putting 95 on an old thinkpad, that sounds logical to me :P
08:41:26 <Rugxulo> it's fine if you want to struggle with that, but old hardware often dies
08:41:46 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Page closed").
08:41:51 * Rugxulo bought a Lynx II (made in 1991) in 2004 or so, it only lasted a year, maybe two
08:42:03 <ehird95> there are original model thinkpads still working; many of them
08:42:09 <ehird95> thinkpads are ridiculously sturdy
08:42:14 <Rugxulo> I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just not airtight :-/
08:42:25 <ehird95> i'm just saying that a lot of people get second-hand thinkpads
08:42:27 <Rugxulo> I love retro (more than modern, too), but it's not flawless
08:42:34 <ehird95> and as a rule they don't really break
08:42:38 <ehird95> without active breakingness
08:43:02 <ehird95> http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:X20
08:43:15 <ehird95> (beefy specs for a 95 machine, too...)
08:44:25 <Rugxulo> DOS still doesn't have good (or any, really) drivers for sound, esp. non-SB
08:44:52 <ehird95> i'm sure the x20 can talk soundblaster
08:44:57 <Rugxulo> but the processor looks okay, RAM could be better (or worse even)
08:45:01 <ehird95> Rugxulo: you forgot Gravis :-)
08:45:15 <ehird95> 97 is kinda impossible on win95
08:45:33 <ehird95> problems loading this youtube page
08:45:51 <Rugxulo> I think YouTube upgraded to Flash 9 not too long ago (to many peoples' chagrin)
08:46:12 <Rugxulo> I might be wrong on the version number, but they still aren't "good enough" to FOSS codecs, etc.
08:46:26 <Rugxulo> (although Google did buy some codec developer recently, maybe they'll change)
08:46:47 <Rugxulo> lots of stuff uses Flash, perhaps too much (considering its transitory nature)
08:47:58 <Rugxulo> even my Dad's Mac OS X (10.3.9) laptop's Flash was "too old" to watch some stuff
08:48:21 <ehird95> youtube recommended me to upgrade to flash 10 when i had 9 or 8, i forget which
08:48:30 <ehird95> (although the flash itself didn't work)
08:48:44 <Rugxulo> Flash is a pain to many people
08:52:50 -!- ais523 has joined.
08:53:56 <Rugxulo> anyways, VMware is reported to work well
08:54:04 <Rugxulo> but I've never bothered trying it
08:54:29 <Rugxulo> boo #nethack, yay ##crawl ;-)
08:55:22 * Sgeo__ is a NetHack person, kind of
08:55:25 <ais523> I do play Crawl a bit too, though
08:55:37 * Rugxulo finds NetHack too hard, too confusing
08:56:01 <ais523> Crawl's decent as a wargame, but it plays rather differently from NetHack
08:56:11 <ais523> I'd say the two are more or less independent in the strategies needed
08:56:37 <Rugxulo> Crawl feels more arcade-like but really needs fairly good strategy
08:56:46 <Rugxulo> and lots of experience ;-)
08:57:27 <Rugxulo> no selling stuff, no need to run to altar to id stuff
08:57:44 <ehird95> ais523: hi, i'm using windows 95.
08:57:44 <Sgeo__> Um... if Windows 95 Plus! introduced IE 1.0, how does ehird95 have 3.0?
08:58:01 <ehird95> Sgeo__: 95 plus! introduced ie 1.0? WTF
08:58:09 <ehird95> ie dates back to win3 days :P
08:58:13 <ais523> I actually liked Win95 at the time
08:58:22 <ehird95> ais523: it's actually pretty good!
08:58:23 <Sgeo__> "This was the first version of Plus! and included Space Cadet Pinball, the Internet Jumpstart Kit (which was the introduction of Internet Explorer 1.0)"
08:58:25 <ais523> in fact, when XP came out I preferred it to XP
08:58:32 <Sgeo__> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Plus!#Microsoft_Plus.21_for_Windows_95
08:58:47 <ais523> still do except it isn't compatible with anything
08:58:58 <ehird95> ais523: my favourite part is the GUI; Explorer and its ilk
08:59:02 <ehird95> ais523: it's sort of... crisp
08:59:07 <ehird95> like every pixel was accounted for
08:59:25 <ehird95> ais523: don't say nothing supports it!
08:59:30 <ehird95> Opera 10 runs on it almost entirely perfectly
08:59:31 <ais523> yes, even nowadays I style XP to look like that
08:59:43 <ehird95> win 95's explorer had different menus for instance
08:59:47 <Rugxulo> the only big deal with Win95 was the 32-bit API, the DOS integration, and Plug 'n Play
08:59:51 <ehird95> and i don't think you can make xp open one window for every app
09:00:04 <ehird95> ais523: anyway, I'm talking to you with the latest version of mIRC, while browsing the regular web on regular settings using Opera 10
09:00:17 <Rugxulo> ehird95: don't like Opera's IRC?
09:00:20 <ehird95> (Opera 10 is the latest Opera)
09:00:24 <ehird95> Rugxulo: I used it, but "eh"
09:00:28 <ehird95> Nicer to have it as a separate program.
09:00:31 <ais523> I wonder if that's the reason I still compile new opera apps against Windows 3.1?
09:00:39 <Rugxulo> fun trivia: mIRC was originally freeware!!
09:00:42 <ais523> after all, in theory later versions of windows can still emulate it
09:00:46 <ais523> umm... new windows apps
09:00:51 <ehird95> nobody actually registers it, do they?
09:00:52 <ais523> if and when I write one, which is rare
09:01:02 <ehird95> ais523: anyway, opera 10 really does work perfectly with only a few glitches
09:01:05 <ais523> the exception's if they're 32-bit, in which case I compile against Windows 95
09:01:06 <ehird95> well, I guess not perfectly then
09:01:13 <Rugxulo> ehird95: not with Opera, Chatzilla, ERC, etc. ;-)
09:01:17 <ehird95> it fails to report file sizes and image sizes
09:01:18 <ais523> but Windows XP broke a lot of the compatibility stuff
09:01:19 <ehird95> that's the only thing I've found
09:01:32 <ais523> I suppose that if I use Windows 1 features that were deprecated in 3.1, I shouldn't really expect them to work in XP
09:01:32 <ehird95> and I only have 64MiB of RAM in this VM!
09:01:36 <ais523> (although they work fine in 95!)
09:02:07 <Rugxulo> so once Windows requires (or "recommends") > 3 GB of RAM for actual use, 32-bit is DOA
09:02:18 <ehird95> ais523: I had to skip past a few spam ad surveys on a shady windows-drivers site to get them to give me an old version of the Microsoft IntelliPoint drivers; I don't have a Microsoft mouse, but this enables the scroll-wheel...
09:02:33 <ehird95> (I needed an older version so it didn't depend on a newer IE and also to have less crap on my system)
09:02:36 <ais523> I wonder what driver EULAs are like?
09:02:41 <ais523> I think I may still have one of those on CD
09:02:44 <ehird95> (I could install the newer IE, but *eh*)
09:02:58 <ehird95> (At some point I might reinstall by pirating the floppies instead; that way, IE won't be mandatory.)
09:03:05 <Sgeo__> Docking Station should work on Win95
09:03:14 <ehird95> Sgeo__: Link me up and I'll try.
09:03:17 <ais523> I once created a web page which, if opened in IE 4, would cause Windows 95 or 98 to crash hard
09:03:19 <ehird95> Graphics will probably be too slow to be usable, though.
09:03:22 <Rugxulo> DamnSmallLinux can run in 32 MB of RAM
09:03:26 <ais523> didn't actually put it on the web, though
09:03:30 <ais523> and later versions of IE fixed the bug
09:03:32 <ehird95> ais523: ooh, what's that file:// url or whatever?
09:03:41 <ehird95> Rugxulo: 95 can run with 4MiB and decently with like 16
09:03:52 <Rugxulo> I know, but it ain't free :-(
09:04:01 <ais523> I used a different method, though
09:04:05 <Rugxulo> (and 4 MB might be a bit optimistic ... swapping would be slooooooowwwwwwww)
09:04:06 <ais523> which was hilarious on locked-down computers
09:04:10 <ehird95> admittedly I broke the law
09:04:11 <ais523> as it ended up killing Explorer
09:04:18 <ehird95> well guys, I'm about to try concon
09:04:24 <ais523> meaning: you couldn't do anything, you couldn't log out, etc
09:04:39 <Sgeo__> http://www.gamewaredevelopment.co.uk/downloads_more.php?id=22_0_8_0_M13
09:04:41 <ais523> ehird95 just stopped responding to pings
09:05:02 <Rugxulo> why he even wanted to test that ("con/con") is beyond me
09:05:16 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
09:05:28 <ais523> trying to refer to c:\con\con
09:05:30 <Sgeo__> con\con to have the effect that it did
09:05:34 <ais523> there's a weird bug in Windows' legacy support
09:05:39 <ais523> basically, DOS has a few special filenames
09:05:42 <Rugxulo> "con" is a reserved word in DOS/Win9x
09:05:47 -!- ehird95 has joined.
09:05:49 <ais523> which, when used with any extensoin, send the file to a device
09:06:03 <Sgeo__> prn? Windows recognizes..
09:06:06 <ehird95> I like how I'm using an overclocker's tool to keep my system fans running low and use less power
09:06:11 <ais523> e.g. if you write to prn.exe, instead it'll go to the printer
09:06:16 <ais523> ehird95: you're underclocking?
09:07:15 <ais523> that exists in UNIX too, cat > myfile.txt
09:07:27 <ais523> ehird and I were discussing QBasic a while ago
09:07:29 <ehird95> ais523: Nope; Windows 95 doesn't run hlt on idle cycles by default, so it always uses the CPU at near-100%. This makes the cooling system work more and uses more power. I'm using a tool called Rain, designed to cool down the system by hogging all the idle cycles with hlt and thus allow more overclocking, to make my system fans less noisy and use less power.
09:07:35 <ais523> I even have a legit copy of it on this computer
09:07:56 <ais523> ehird95: what interrupts the system out of the hlts?
09:07:58 <ehird95> This particular Rain installation is "Optimized for Intel Pentium Pro"; I had a wide range of selection... among ancient processors.
09:08:07 <ehird95> ais523: I think it just does a busyloop
09:08:18 <Sgeo__> ehird95, http://www.gamewaredevelopment.co.uk/downloads_more.php?id=22_0_8_0_M13 is the link, but the sysreqs say that it needs IE 4 for networking capabilities
09:08:28 <Rugxulo> "hlt" is the same as "jmp $" but is interrupted by ... an interrupt! ;-)
09:08:37 <ehird95> Sgeo__: Probably for Winsock 2 or something
09:08:57 <ehird95> Well, won't be downloading it from there any time soon.
09:09:35 <Rugxulo> MS' FTP site has tons of old stuff
09:09:38 <Sgeo__> Rugxulo, Creatures Docking Station
09:09:45 <ehird95> winsite.com has apparently died.
09:10:08 <ehird95> Well, not huge enough for a WP article.
09:10:32 <ehird95> Sgeo__: care to link me a working link?
09:11:21 <Rugxulo> what, all this for Docking Station?
09:11:43 <ehird95> I asked for a working link.
09:11:52 <ehird95> You greatly overestimate how much work I have, so far, put into this endeavour.
09:12:06 <Rugxulo> what endeavour? what is the goal?
09:12:23 <ehird95> See if Docking Station works.
09:12:27 <ehird95> ais523: your explanation got cut off
09:12:38 <ehird95> ais523: you stopped talking before you explained why it fails if you refer to con or whatever as a directory :-P
09:13:01 <ais523> I don't think the case of someone using con as a directory was implemented at all
09:13:03 <Sgeo__> It's from a Creatures fansite though
09:13:03 <Sgeo__> http://creatures.treesprite.com/dockingstation_195.exe
09:13:06 <ais523> so the fact you get UB there isn't surprising
09:13:14 <ehird95> Rugxulo: we've established that.
09:13:15 <ais523> Rugxulo: yes, I've been explaining what it was reserved for
09:13:25 <ehird95> ais523: I know the story, I just meant for Sgeo__
09:13:41 <Sgeo__> The other links on http://creatures.treesprite.com/Upgrades5.html#A don't work
09:14:01 <Rugxulo> it's 30 MB, that's why I was skeptical
09:14:06 <ehird95> Got anything with a link faster than a T...0? :-P
09:14:12 <ehird95> Rugxulo: 30MB downloads in like a minute on my connection
09:14:12 <Rugxulo> (esp. since on company sells a service that slims Win98 down to like 8 MB install)
09:14:19 <ehird95> assuming a non-retarded server, which we don't have in this new link
09:14:28 * Rugxulo didn't know if you had fast internet or not
09:14:30 <ehird95> graphical content, sounds... are big
09:14:40 <fizzie> "The Messenger Service is no longer supported from Windows Vista and Windows Server 2008." Wahh, I want my pop-up spam. :/
09:14:42 <Rugxulo> they should've used better compression
09:14:55 <ehird95> 8Mb/s isn't exactly "fast", what with Scandinavia and bordering areas having 50Mb/s as commonplace stuff
09:15:07 <Sgeo__> F U, Fileplanet, for wanting me to register
09:15:10 <Rugxulo> anything is fast compared to dialup
09:15:13 <ehird95> Rugxulo: yes, let's just wave the magical wand and get every file under 1MB
09:15:27 <ehird95> Sgeo__: Fileplanet is shit, you have to wait in a queue to download your file
09:15:28 <Rugxulo> no, but typically people are lazy and use horrible compression
09:15:43 <ehird95> 9.4%; I guess this download might be fast enough.
09:15:57 <ehird95> " MB (K\ bytes)" --Opera, attempting to tell me how fast it's downloading
09:16:08 <ehird95> Not *entirely* perfect on 95...
09:16:17 <Rugxulo> (minimal Unicode, if any ...)
09:16:24 <Sgeo__> http://www.pcworld.com/downloads/file/fid,17080-order,1-page,1-c,alldownloads/description.html
09:16:54 <Sgeo__> Also, http://www.gamewaredevelopment.co.uk/ds/ds_more.php?id=552_0_16_0_C
09:17:05 <Rugxulo> sounds like a glorified Tamagotchi
09:19:40 <ais523> MB seems a pretty fast speed
09:20:33 <ehird95> Rugxulo: the Creatures series is nothing like either of those
09:20:52 <ehird95> what's your problem? you've been interestingly critical of it since the first link...
09:21:25 <ehird95> ais523: the block represents the number bigger than infinity.
09:22:15 <ais523> ehird95: oh, to me it's a lightning bolt
09:22:22 <ais523> presumably you can't see it though
09:22:45 <Rugxulo> ehird, not intentionally ... just sounds like a lot of trouble for little gain
09:22:57 <ais523> strangely, it stops being a lightning bolt if I copy-and-paste it elsewhere, and turns into a control-L
09:23:27 <ehird95> Rugxulo: it's clicking a few links, plus the game is amusing for a few minutes
09:23:34 <ehird95> it's no more pointless than any "let's see if this works"
09:24:09 * ehird95 wonders what people used for win 95 development... gotta fix that fitt's law violation...
09:24:14 <fizzie> It's control-L for controlled Lightning.
09:24:23 <fizzie> Here it's a [0012] except in a box.
09:24:27 <Rugxulo> Watcom and MSVC, presumably
09:24:33 <ais523> it looked like that when I copied-and-pasted it elsewhere
09:24:45 <ais523> so I think it's a lightning bolt under Qt, but a box containing [0012] under GTK
09:25:04 <Rugxulo> DJGPP existed well before Cygwin (and subsequently MinGW)
09:25:08 <fizzie> Also that Borland thing.
09:25:43 <ais523> I still have a copy of Borland C++ 4
09:25:51 <ais523> which doesn't really work properly on Windows XP
09:25:56 <ais523> but then it didn't really work properly on Windows 95
09:26:02 <fizzie> I have 4.5 too somewhere.
09:26:11 <Sgeo__> Stupid reason to learn Python: I didn't realize that there were free C/C++ compilers
09:26:12 <ehird95> DJGPP for pure-Win32 development sounds misguided.
09:26:21 <Sgeo__> That's also why I first started to learn Java
09:26:31 <Rugxulo> ehird, no I meant for DOS/DPMI apps (although with third-party RSXNT/DJ you could do Win32)
09:26:32 <fizzie> The full 4.5 version came with some pc magazine.
09:26:53 <ehird95> Right; I'm looking to do Win32. It's gotta be simple to catch all mouseclicks in one pixel of the screen.
09:26:56 <Rugxulo> Sgeo, Python ain't so bad, it's fans LOVE it
09:27:10 <Rugxulo> OpenWatcom supports Win32 also (as host or target)
09:27:16 <Sgeo__> Rugxulo, I like Python, but the reason I became interested in it in the first place...
09:27:17 <ehird95> Maybe I'll just have to make an always-on-top, above-taskbar borderless window whose only pixel is transparent, then catch clicks on that.
09:27:22 <fizzie> Visual Studio 6 still works on 95, I think; at least on 98 it does.
09:27:34 <Rugxulo> oh, and you can actually do Win32 stuff in assembly too (see FASMW)
09:27:44 <ehird95> Then it's just a matter of calling whatever function brings up the start menu.
09:27:59 <Rugxulo> but why did Borland 4 have issues?
09:28:21 <fizzie> ehird95: A true Windows developer would do that by synthesizing a mouse click event that clicks around the start button.
09:29:01 <ais523> Rugxulo: most commonly, it would hang in the middle of compilation for no good reason
09:29:01 <ais523> and then you'd have to change bits of things around at random until it didn't
09:29:01 <ais523> also, linking tended to fail on 32-bit programs
09:29:11 <fizzie> Oh, and of course there's always LCC-win32. That was reasonably popular too.
09:29:13 <Rugxulo> was it a DOS or Windows program?
09:29:17 <ehird95> fizzie: Yes, well, that'll fail if you resize the task bar to be invisible with hacks. :P
09:29:17 <ais523> fizzie: I actually did that
09:29:22 <ais523> I mean, simulate mouse clicks and keypresses
09:29:25 <ehird95> although I couldn't code C
09:29:30 <ais523> it was the easiest way, which is saying something
09:29:50 <ais523> ehird95: lcc-win32 is one of the most common talking points over on comp.lang.c
09:29:52 <ehird95> I think I'll call this sanity-restoring program Fitt. I mean, it's like Dr. Watson.
09:30:03 <Rugxulo> ais523: that's only because the developer is prolific
09:30:08 <ehird95> Fitt sits there, waiting for your click, intercepts it, and makes good things happen!
09:30:08 <ais523> basically, it's relatively good, but has some things which are nonstandard for no good reason at all
09:30:16 <ais523> and has various misfeatues
09:30:28 <ais523> it gives you a good idea of what's going on, though
09:30:44 <ehird95> lcc-win32 was quite easy to install, iirc
09:30:45 <ais523> the impression I got was that the development of lcc-win32 was driven by the author's commercial customers
09:30:47 * Rugxulo suggests OpenWatcom, no need of stinkin' MSVCRT.DLL that most compilers (ahem, MinGW) require
09:30:53 <ehird95> just a click-click-click affair, and I believe it has an editor built-in
09:30:58 <ais523> many of who ask for stupid things, and actually get them because they're paying
09:31:00 <ehird95> Rugxulo: is OpenWatcom free or will I have to pirate it?
09:31:27 <ehird95> are the generated executables lean 'n mean or bloated in any way?
09:31:29 <ais523> ehird95: Wikipedia says it's Fitts' law, not Fitt's law
09:31:33 <ehird95> I recall something about watcom+bloated being said earlier
09:31:33 <Rugxulo> it's like 75 MB, but that's with all hosts and targets
09:31:33 <ais523> because the person was called Fitts
09:31:40 <ehird95> ais523: I'll call it Fitts, then
09:31:50 <fizzie> ais523: I saw a very recent example of registering a OCX control by sending a mouse click to start button (it even picked up the absolute screen size to position it "correctly" -- of course fails if the user moves the task bar), then "r" and "regsvr32 ..." and "return" keypress events.
09:31:51 <Rugxulo> but not as small as MinGW only because it (thankfully) rejects the buggy MSVCRT.DLL
09:32:03 <ehird95> I just like the idea of having Fitts himself sit inside my computer, intercepting clicks to make them do the Right Thing.
09:32:03 <Rugxulo> still smaller than DJGPP, though (leaner library)
09:32:22 <ais523> fizzie: wait, it actually went and simulated the keypresses for Start | Run...?
09:32:35 <ais523> that's ridiculous on about 3 levels
09:32:51 <ehird95> Rugxulo: I don't think I even have msvcrt.dll
09:32:53 * Rugxulo saw a nice sample Win32 GUI app in < 1k
09:32:59 <ais523> (the amusing thing, of course, is that the WinExec API call, which is roughly equivalent to system() in Unix, has been deprecated)
09:33:34 <ais523> they probably added a replacement
09:33:35 <Sgeo__> fizzie, maybe it's just an example?
09:33:36 <Rugxulo> MS also deprecated tmpnam etc. I think
09:33:39 <ais523> I haven't heard of that one, it must be newer than my time
09:33:44 <ehird95> http://www.forest.impress.co.jp/article/1999/11/16/lcc_win32.gif lcc-win32 looks happily painless; type 'n click compile 'n done.
09:33:48 <ais523> Rugxulo: but then, they deprecated snprintf
09:33:50 <fizzie> Sgeo__: It was in the internets, I don't remember the story aroudn it.
09:34:02 <Rugxulo> lots of people deprecate lots of stuff for no good reason
09:34:04 <ais523> even more amusingly, their replacement has an extra argument for the size of the buffer
09:34:20 <ais523> I'm not sure if anyone's ever used it with buffer size != maximum characters to print + 1
09:34:48 <ehird95> "We would also like to thank Perforce Software for providing us with a license to use their excellent source code management system"
09:35:07 <ehird95> do I want to use software made by people who think that (a) using Perforce is a good idea and (b) getting a license for Perforce for open source software is a good idea?
09:35:08 <Rugxulo> Linus himself used to use it before he wrote Git
09:35:20 <ehird95> which is about 1,000,000,000,000x better
09:35:22 <ais523> it's Perl that used to use perforce
09:35:24 <ais523> but they changed to git
09:35:31 <fizzie> I seem to remember that there was some controversy (usenet- or otherwise) w.r.t. Jacob Navia, lcc-win32's developer.
09:35:37 <Rugxulo> first of all, use whatever you like, but ... Watcom existed since a long time (late 80s)
09:35:38 <ais523> it's a usenet controversy
09:35:40 <ehird95> still a bad idea to use bitkeeper for linux, but perforce has the added benefit of being really, terribly awfully bad
09:35:47 <Rugxulo> actually, early 80s, but the 386 C/C++ is late 80s
09:36:05 <fizzie> Watcom's a classic, yes; but lcc-win32 is potentially simpler.
09:36:22 <Rugxulo> I don't know of any controversy offhand re: Navia, but I know he's a bit stubborn
09:36:47 <ehird95> aaand here comes docking station
09:37:04 <ehird95> Rugxulo: http://www.forest.impress.co.jp/article/1999/11/16/lcc_win32.gif looks very simple to me, for getting the development done
09:37:08 <ehird95> Sgeo__: it's just the installer :P
09:37:15 <fizzie> Current lcc-win32 says: "Requirements: You need at least Windows 2000, the compiler and command line utiltities will work with older Windows operating systems without any trouble, but the IDE may make use of features not available in older systems and is therefor not supposed to run."
09:37:17 <Rugxulo> LCC-Win32 is only for non-commercial use, OpenWatcom is for anything (so Perforce is moot, IMHO)
09:37:27 <ehird95> I don't want to sell this :P
09:37:32 <Rugxulo> no surprise, those bastards
09:37:43 <ehird95> Sgeo__: "Error 0 running command .\installblast.exe --temp"
09:37:45 <ehird95> will try to extract manually
09:37:48 <ais523> lcc-win32 is shareware, sort-of; it's free to use non-commercially, you can get a commercial licence by paying
09:37:49 <Rugxulo> OpenWatcom runs on OS/2, Windows, Linux (beta), DOS :-)
09:38:12 <ehird95> alright then, hook me up with an openwatcom installer link w/ IDE :P
09:38:23 <Rugxulo> ais523: I'm sure it's good, I've just never used it and don't see any need for it
09:38:56 <ehird95> Sgeo__: okay, extracting the installer
09:39:04 <ais523> ah, snprintf_s no longer exists, that makes sense
09:39:12 <ais523> but, sprintf_s strikes me as the most ridiculous function I've ever seen
09:39:14 <Rugxulo> http://ftp.heanet.ie/pub/openwatcom/open-watcom-c-win32-1.8.exe
09:39:18 <ais523> it's basically snprintf but worse
09:39:39 <ehird95> "The INSTALLBLAST.EXE file is linked to missing export WININET.DLL:InternetAudodial."
09:39:46 <ehird95> Sgeo__: guess i'd have to upgrade IE
09:40:04 <Rugxulo> it compiles itself, for heaven's sake
09:40:11 <Rugxulo> it's bound to be "good enough"
09:40:11 <ehird95> wtf i'm talking about docking station you doofus
09:40:27 <ais523> also, it has a scary line suggesting that sprintf doesn't check that the format string is valid, whereas sprintf_s does
09:40:29 <fizzie> ehird95: Yes, but you can replace that with Open Watcom. It's "good enough". :p
09:40:33 <ehird95> Sgeo__: or i could just fish out the WinInet.dll from IE 4's installer...
09:40:36 <Sgeo__> ehird95, huh, so the sysreqs lied about what IE4 was needed for?
09:40:48 <ehird95> IE4 is needed for its internet functions.
09:40:57 <Sgeo__> So what is it needed for in the installer?
09:41:07 <ehird95> To register an account or something, I guess.
09:41:41 <ais523> hmm... snprintf can be used to tell you the length of the buffer you need
09:41:46 <ehird95> that watcom link is strangely slow
09:41:50 <ais523> whereas, sprintf_s causes your program to crash if it's too small
09:41:59 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
09:42:13 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
09:43:58 <Rugxulo> bah, didn't think that'd work
09:44:10 <ehird95> ow, the blue background of the openwatcom installer
09:45:03 <ehird95> alright, installing into C:\WATCOM
09:45:58 <ehird95> "Setup needs to modify AUTOEXEC.BAT and CONFIG.SYS."
09:46:12 <ehird95> quite worrying, considering both were obsolete by windows 95
09:46:23 <ehird95> well, my autoexec is empty and i have no config.sys, so it can't hurt
09:46:26 <Rugxulo> Win95 = MS-DOS 7.0 + Win 4.0
09:46:43 <Rugxulo> it's just more hidden (barely)
09:46:44 <ehird95> config.sys is useless, though, because everything has windows drivers :P
09:46:54 <ehird95> autoexec is useless because, well, not much adds to the PATH I guess
09:46:55 <Rugxulo> they still supported DOS drivers
09:46:59 <ehird95> Rugxulo: annoyances.org agrees with me
09:47:06 <ehird95> but rare is the device with only DOS drivers
09:47:16 <ehird95> and such a device is indeed deprecated, so to speak
09:47:17 <Rugxulo> not that rare, in 1995 at least
09:47:37 <Rugxulo> we still have drivers in 2009 (UIDE) ;-)
09:48:13 <Rugxulo> anyways, autoexec.bat is called by the shell (command.com)
09:48:27 <Rugxulo> P.S. 4DOS is free now, you should grab it
09:48:56 <ehird95> 4DOS is a command shell for windows :P
09:49:10 <Rugxulo> 4DOS works very well under Win9x
09:49:19 <ehird95> totally irrelevant @ ais523
09:49:20 <Rugxulo> 4NT (or whatever it's called now) is for later versions
09:49:23 <fizzie> I think I had some ndis2-drivers-only network card at some point.
09:49:23 <ehird95> for mentioning freedos and dosbox
09:49:37 <ehird95> the single-most annoying feature of windows 9x is that your mouse movement becomes choppy and keys are dropped if your CPU is being used a lot
09:49:38 <Rugxulo> he's just trying to help you ;-)
09:49:44 <ehird95> and even rendering a web page does that to 95...
09:49:58 <Rugxulo> Vista loses keys too, so nothing's perfect
09:50:07 <Sgeo__> ehird95, that's not true of all Windows OSes?
09:50:18 <Rugxulo> probably due to preemptive vs. cooperative
09:50:22 <ehird95> You tried to access the address http://www.jpsoft.com/, which is currently unavailable. Please make sure that the Web address (URL) is correctly spelled and punctuated, then try reloading the page.
09:50:34 <ehird95> Sgeo__: works fine in XP, so probably in NT 4.0 up
09:50:40 <ehird95> maybe starting in 2000, dunno
09:50:49 <Sgeo__> ehird95, actually, it doesn't work fine in XP for me
09:50:52 <ehird95> as in start rendering a page, can't move the mouse
09:51:13 <Rugxulo> believe it or not, VMs aren't perfect
09:51:20 <ehird95> The address you have entered has not been activated.
09:51:38 <Rugxulo> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/util/user/4dos/
09:52:20 * ais523 reads http://www.asktog.com/columns/022DesignedToGiveFitts.html
09:52:25 <ais523> I disagree with the question 3 bonus
09:52:45 <ais523> with a right-handed mouse, I find hitting the bottom-right corner of the screen really hard as the mouse keeps getting stuck against my hand
09:52:52 <ais523> as in, I can't actually move in that direction far enough
09:53:08 <ehird95> ais523: fitts' law sort of assumes you're not putting your mouse on a cliff with your hand bent over backwards
09:53:17 <ehird95> I know that's an exaggeration, but it concerns a mouse held reasonably, on a decent surface
09:53:23 <ais523> also, I thought the answer "the pixel under the cursor" couldn't be given because you didn't know exactly where the cursor was
09:53:35 <ais523> ehird95: I rest my wrist on the table when using a mouse
09:53:45 <ais523> I have to move it in order to be able to move it a long distance down and right
09:53:48 <ais523> but it's good for other directions
09:54:28 <ehird95> Rugxulo: do I need 4dos800 or 4dos800patches?
09:54:49 <ehird95> also, this is kind of pointless; I can't use the ms dos window, remember?
09:55:23 <ais523> ehird95: what goes wrong when you try?
09:55:40 <Rugxulo> screen goes insane, hard reset needed (probably a VirtualBox bug)
09:56:03 <ehird95> only happens with vesa driver, not vga, iirc
09:56:13 <ehird95> (the vesa driver is a third-party thingamajic)
09:56:54 <ehird95> if anyone knows any vesa drivers for windows that support high resolutions (like 1280x1024), that'd be great :P
09:57:11 -!- ehird has quit ("Ex-Chat").
09:57:32 <Rugxulo> any VESA should support that, probably just another buggy implementation :-/
09:57:44 <ehird95> The actual VESA driver is solid
09:57:50 <ehird95> and can support such high resolutions
09:58:03 <ehird95> but it probably triggers a vbox bug.
09:58:06 <fizzie> Maybe you should port the VirtualBox guest additions to the 9x series, now that you have the Watcom there and all.
09:58:13 <ehird95> http://geocities.com/bearwindows/vbe9x.htm
09:58:17 <Rugxulo> like I said, VBox has various bugs (esp. for older 16-bit-ish OSes)
09:58:23 * Sgeo__ needs to go to sleep a few hours ago
09:58:25 <ehird95> fizzie: Good idea. I'll do that right after I stick my head in a blender :P
09:58:32 <ehird95> Rugxulo: no alternative for me as far as I can tell
09:58:40 <ehird95> open watcom adds two menus
09:58:44 <ehird95> one for programs, one for help
09:58:55 <Rugxulo> you can rearrange / edit those
09:58:59 <Rugxulo> I wouldn't worry about it though
09:59:00 <ehird95> wow that's a lot of menu items
09:59:11 <Rugxulo> (actually, you could've just "unzipped" the .EXE as it's just a sfx)
09:59:24 <ehird95> ok, this IDE is *seriously* 16-bit
09:59:37 <ehird95> right down to using that win 3 font
09:59:48 -!- Sgeo__ has quit ("Leaving").
10:00:43 <ehird95> anyone know any vesa drivers for windows?
10:00:58 <Rugxulo> Bear Windows didn't have one?
10:02:05 <fizzie> ehird95: Did you try the "obsolete" "MANUAL" VirtualBox-specific build of that vbe9x you linked to?
10:02:13 <ehird95> Rugxulo: That's what I'm using...
10:02:37 <ehird95> fizzie: The VirtualBox forums guide to 9x says that the VBox-specific one actually "has issues".
10:02:51 <ehird95> I might, though, if there's no other vesa drivers for 9x.
10:03:35 <fizzie> Scitech Display Doctor might have had some video-drivery things in the latest releases, though I'm not sure whether it overlapped at all with 9x.
10:03:39 <Rugxulo> isn't there a QEMU for Mac (called "Q" or something)?
10:03:58 <Rugxulo> maybe it works better (since VirtualBox is just a heavily-modified QEMU with a GUI)
10:04:15 <Rugxulo> VESA is part of the BIOS, not part of the OS
10:04:41 <Rugxulo> and I think you mean Univbe
10:05:13 <fizzie> Rugxulo: It was renamed Scitech Display Doctor, and I thought it acquired some display-drivery things later; it used to be just "provide the VESA bios functions for non-vesa-supporting cards" when it was called univbe.
10:05:38 <fizzie> Or that's the feeling I got; I didn't really follow the development of it later.
10:05:44 <Rugxulo> ftp://ftp.sac.sk/pub/sac/graph/uvbe51a.zip
10:05:59 <Rugxulo> I don't know, I think SDD had Univbe in it, not sure
10:06:21 <fizzie> "In version 5.2, it was renamed to Scitech Display Doctor. However, UniVBE remained to be the name used for the actual driver."
10:06:48 <fizzie> "Version 6.5 introduced the ability to use Scitech Display Doctor as wrapper video driver." I think that's what I was thinking about, though I'm not quite sure what a "wrapper video driver" exactly is.
10:07:40 <Rugxulo> dunno, I guess to make Windows use a higher-level API to behind the scenes access BIOS interrupts
10:07:41 <fizzie> "SciTech Display Doctor includes the only universal Windows 95 display driver. SciTech Display Doctor is compatible with over 250different graphics chips. If you have ever struggled with display drivers or experienced problems like slow display speeds or system crashes, SciTech Display Doctor is the solution you need."
10:07:44 <ehird95> I've heard of Scitech Display Doctor in relation to this stuff, I think.
10:07:59 <Rugxulo> QEMU is indeed slow ... does KQemu not work on Mac OS X?
10:08:23 <ehird95> And I guess it might, but still. I have this mental image of QEMU = dog slow.
10:08:43 <Rugxulo> VBox uses some JIT stuff to make it lots faster
10:08:53 <fizzie> You can find sdd6.53 in http://download.chip.eu/en/SciTech-Display-Doctor-6.53_35301.html# -- it seems to do the download without registration there if you just click enough.
10:08:56 <ehird95> iMacs are x86 machines, you know.
10:09:00 <ehird95> They just use EFI instead of BIOS.
10:10:08 <fizzie> "For better graphic [in VirtualBox] in WinDOS you can install scitech display doctor 7." Well, someone suggests that, anyway.
10:10:52 <ehird95> I'ma download it with ma meggabits.
10:10:58 <fizzie> I'm not sure if 6.53 works as well; it was legally available from their FTP at some point, which might not have been the case with 7.
10:11:17 <Rugxulo> their FTP site seems kaput (according to Wikipedia and my own attempt just now)
10:11:18 <fizzie> I'm sure you could find 7 too from the interwebs, though.
10:11:33 <Rugxulo> I think 5.x worked better with older cards
10:11:34 <ehird95> http://majorgeeks.com/SciTech_Display_Doctor_d382.html How about a BETA?!!!!1111
10:11:45 <ehird95> This card is going to show up as generic to anything.
10:11:54 <ehird95> Since it's just VirtualBox's fake card.
10:12:06 <fizzie> Yes, but I'm not sure 5.x had the Win95 video driver parts; 6.53 should have them, maybe.
10:13:01 <Rugxulo> "Bing cashback" ... man they push too hard :-P
10:13:17 * Rugxulo is waiting for the day, real soon now, when XBox 360 is "obsolete"
10:13:26 <ais523> what's next? the xbox 719?
10:13:33 <ehird95> Watcom's dialog editor seems quite nice for designing, say, an option thingy.
10:13:41 <ehird95> I wonder if I can be bothered to combine those two menus.
10:13:51 <Rugxulo> it was all a marketing gimmick to offset dumb customers saying "wow, PS3 sounds better than Xbox2" (allegedly)
10:13:58 <fizzie> ais523: The xbox 129600, maybe.
10:14:24 <ehird95> Gah, I hate Windows installers that set their own backdrop and hide everything else.
10:14:33 <Rugxulo> XBox4 (when it's really XBox 3.1)
10:14:36 <fizzie> "We've jumped one extra-major version".
10:14:52 <fizzie> Though maybe the "why box" doesn't sound so good.
10:15:00 <ehird95> Lawl, it used the internet to CHECK FOR AN UPDATE in the installer; ran into a 320 moved temporarily, probably squatted.
10:15:00 <fizzie> Still, if Nintendo can run with Wii...
10:15:25 * Rugxulo remembers all the perverted jokes for days after that ...
10:15:33 <fizzie> The power glove, it's so bad. (I get that connotation every time someone says "bad".)
10:15:53 <ehird95> it will operate for 21 days and give a reminder mesage for 10 seconds each time my computer boots
10:15:56 <ehird95> although hitting a key will skip that
10:15:57 <ais523> ehird95: how did it react?
10:15:57 <fizzie> Since the context was "Nintendo", it sounded appropriate this time.
10:15:57 <Rugxulo> SNES lightgun! SNES mouse!
10:16:11 <fizzie> SciTech Display Doctor 6.53
10:16:11 <fizzie> Supports: Windows and DOS.
10:16:12 <fizzie> Reg Code: 00000-173D626E-02002
10:16:12 <fizzie> Full Name: 6.x Free Edition
10:16:20 <ehird95> That was my next question!
10:16:21 <ais523> incidentally, how did the limited-time shareware programs react to being uninstalled and reinstalled?
10:16:38 <ehird95> *ais523 has a heart attack from fizzie's flagrant violation of the law*
10:16:47 <ehird95> ais523: they buried it in the registry or sth
10:16:48 <fizzie> ehird95: That's directly from Scitech, you know.
10:17:05 <Rugxulo> yeah, they don't sell it anymore
10:17:07 <ais523> surely pirates would just write a registry-diffing program, or something?
10:17:14 <fizzie> And yes, quite many did try to leave all kinds of droppings around the file system and registry.
10:17:21 <Rugxulo> pirates will (and do) crack anything and everything
10:17:36 <ais523> yes, I know it's pointless trying to stop it
10:17:39 <Rugxulo> even (rarely) for actually good reasons ;-)
10:17:56 <ais523> IMO it's pointless putting DRM on things in the first place, because it only hurts legit users
10:18:05 <ais523> after all, pirates can run it whatever you do...
10:18:06 <ehird95> If you don't consider copyright legitimate, then piracy is the obvious thing to do if you're bored
10:18:14 <ehird95> well, if you have the time, rather
10:18:18 <ehird95> and by piracy i meant cracking
10:18:35 <fizzie> Most of those actual "keep track of registry and disk changes for cleaning up after lazy uninstallers" have a side effect of accidentally breaking that "DRM".
10:18:37 <Rugxulo> we're spoiled with free software nowadays, though
10:19:03 <ehird95> the easiest way to get a pirated application circulating is to buy it and distribute the license key
10:19:08 <ehird95> I'm not sure how common that is, though
10:19:09 <ais523> fizzie: my favoured method for breaking that sort of DRM is to use Wine
10:19:11 <fizzie> ehird95: Are you saying no just to be negative? </eliza>
10:19:24 -!- ehird95 has quit.
10:19:27 <Rugxulo> "and how does that make you feel?"
10:19:36 <Rugxulo> "and you think shut up you suck because of why?"
10:20:00 <Rugxulo> anybody remember Dr. Sbaitso? ;-)
10:21:00 <fizzie> "Is it because of the people you hang around with that you say legally imposed culture reduction is cabbage brained?" (courtesy of M-x psychoanalyze-pinhead)
10:21:35 <Rugxulo> heh, they removed yow.lines in latest versions due to copyright (ironically)
10:22:01 <Rugxulo> yeah, lots of Zippy the Pinhead sales out there (not)
10:22:59 <fizzie> "<fizzie> ehird95: Areware pround with that was all the people younded appropriate this timposed culturee Edit was all the perverted distribute the law*" (courtesy of copy-paste and M-x dissociated-press).
10:23:23 <fizzie> "pround" is a nice word, it should have a meaning.
10:23:34 <fizzie> "A combination of the english words "Proud" and "Fond". Often used when a sense of joyous ecstacy overcomes your ability to comprehend spacing between words resulting the the binding the the afformentioned base words."
10:24:12 <fizzie> Well, that was from the urban dictionary, so maybe it's not all that established.
10:24:39 <fizzie> Quite a lot of the results seem to be just misspellings of proud.
10:25:23 <Rugxulo> heh, yeah, I wouldn't trust Urban Dictionary
10:25:32 * Rugxulo never heard of "pround", at least
10:25:32 -!- ehird95 has joined.
10:25:46 <Rugxulo> who knows, though, maybe Shakespeare used it
10:25:50 <ehird95> no supported vga chip found, waah, i'm a retarded driver of retardedness
10:26:39 <ehird95> it has a list of chips and shit
10:29:10 <Rugxulo> VESA itself is the standard, but all the behind-the-scenes stuff is non-standard
10:29:44 <ehird95> the bearwindows stuff works mostly :P
10:30:13 <fizzie> Yes, UniVBE originally was written to provide standards-compatible VESA support for specific video cards. I really did think SDD, when they added the "use directly as a Win9x driver", also added the option to use that driver as a generic VESA thing.
10:30:53 <ehird95> anyone know how to remove a windows control panel btw?
10:31:21 <ais523> back in Windows 3.1 I think you could just delete the file from the directory and it would work
10:31:27 <ais523> I have no idea if that still works, nor where the directory is
10:31:33 <Rugxulo> remove what exactly? the process? file? menu?
10:32:00 <Rugxulo> panel under Control Panel?
10:32:54 <Rugxulo> then no easy way (that I know of)
10:33:00 <fizzie> Weren't those just .cpl files? Or was that win3.1?
10:33:20 <fizzie> Maybe there was some sort of registry registration for them.
10:33:31 <fizzie> I'm sure you can find some tweakery programs from the interwebs to do it.
10:33:52 <fizzie> Qemu emulates three different video cards -- "Cirrus Logic GD5446 Video card. All Windows versions starting from Windows 95 should recognize and use this graphic card" by default, alternatively "Standard VGA card with Bochs VBE extensions" (for winxp vesa-2 driver) or "VMWare SVGA-II compatible adapter" -- it's a bit funny that virtualbox does only their own.
10:33:52 <Rugxulo> just leave it, it's not hurting anything is it?
10:34:19 <ehird95> yes it is, it's some software licensing pay-trial-extort bullshit and I want it gone...
10:34:23 <ais523> Rugxulo: if you knew ehird, you wouldn't say that
10:34:42 -!- ehird95 has quit.
10:35:14 <Rugxulo> all this just to run Creatures whatever?
10:35:41 * Rugxulo ain't knocking it, just seems a bit painful
10:37:00 -!- Asztal has joined.
10:37:40 -!- ehird95 has joined.
10:37:48 <ehird95> right, back to bearwindows.
10:37:53 <fizzie> ehird95: I think TweakUI actually has a control-panel-icon-destroyomator.
10:38:41 <fizzie> Just removing the .cpl file might still work, that's mentioned on one page.
10:40:43 <Rugxulo> I'm not sure it was ever meant to be uninstalled
10:41:59 <fizzie> http://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000136.htm says you can, though.
10:43:00 <fizzie> Of course it removes just the control panel tab, nothing else the program might've installed.
10:53:59 -!- Rugxulo has left (?).
11:05:47 <ehird95> you should be able to install 95 and then replace the kernel with nt 4, right
11:06:57 <fizzie> Maybe in the abstract sense of "should in a perfect world".
11:07:24 <fizzie> I put the whole M-x dissociated-press result to pastebin, since there were some pretty funny bits in it: http://pastebin.com/m40fba1a0
11:07:54 <fizzie> "negatime shareware" sounds very hi-tech, for example.
11:08:16 <ehird95> "xp and later versions" wrt tweakui
11:08:53 <fizzie> Huh? You obviously want the PowerToys'95 set, incl. TweakUI.
11:09:32 <ehird95> Microsoft Windows XP and later revisions of Windows users can easily enable and remove Control Panel icons with the TweakUI program.
11:09:56 <fizzie> Ah. Well, just removes the .cpl, it's listed on that page too.
11:12:03 -!- ehird95_ has joined.
11:12:03 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
11:12:12 -!- ehird95_ has changed nick to ehird95.
11:13:15 <fizzie> According to screenshots tweakui 1.33 (which is 9x still) does have a "control panel" tab, but I can't find a screenshot of the contents of the tab, so I don't know what it can do.
11:13:32 -!- ais523_ has joined.
11:13:59 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
11:14:08 <ehird95> command prompts still fail
11:14:14 <ehird95> anyone know about any _generic_ windows vesa driver?
11:14:49 <ais523_> I'm not sure if there is one
11:14:52 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
11:16:37 <ais523> usability fail: Evolution changes its icon when I switch between inbox and calendar modes
11:16:38 <ehird95> http://geocities.com/bearwindows/vbe9x.htm
11:16:46 <ehird95> ais523: Evolution is one gigantic usability fail
11:16:59 <ais523> really? it's the most just-works of any email client I've ever seen
11:17:13 <ais523> Thunderbird feels clunky after using it, Outlook feels clunky regardless of what else I've been using
11:17:22 <ehird95> It's like Outlook, except more enterprisey and more "unique" (i.e. inconsistent with everything else)
11:17:46 <ais523> hmm... maybe I prefer the Evolution way of doing things, then
11:17:58 <ais523> if everything else does the same thing and Evolution does something different, that would explain a lot
11:18:18 <ehird95> Evolution is, at least, very un-GNOME I'm sure you can agree.
11:18:31 <ehird95> For one, it has like 5 applications in one (calendar, tasks, email, ...)
11:18:40 <ehird95> For two, its preferences pane is fucking mammoth!
11:18:47 <ais523> this system feels like it was built around Evolution
11:18:49 <ehird95> For three, its UI is complicated
11:18:52 <ais523> as opposed to Evolution being added into it
11:18:59 <ehird95> For four, it doesn't really feel native
11:19:03 <ehird95> Evolution is part of GNOME
11:19:16 <ais523> ehird95: most of the things in the DE seem to integrate with it
11:19:23 <ehird95> Oh, they talk together, sure.
11:19:28 <ehird95> But Evolution itself does not feel GNOME.
11:19:36 <ais523> you're right, it doesn't
11:19:40 <ais523> it doesn't feel KDE either, though
11:19:43 <ehird95> That's why I dislike people calling Evolution integrated; it's not integrated in the way you really feel.
11:19:44 <ais523> it's something of its own
11:19:58 <ehird95> it's GNOME, uncanny valley, turn left at preferences street
11:20:14 <ais523> hmm... Firefox would be a good comparison
11:20:22 <ais523> that isn't particularly gnomish either, and has lots of preferences
11:21:08 <ais523> also, they're both very good at persistency
11:21:12 <ais523> which is one of Gnome's strong points
11:21:20 <ais523> (ironically, Firefox > Evolution at persistency)
11:22:41 <ais523> yay, it had already been reported
11:22:51 <ais523> and fixed in karmic, wontfix in jaunty-proposed
11:22:59 -!- linf has joined.
11:23:19 <ais523> (I'm guessing, don't know for certain...)
11:23:52 <linf> HELLO WORLD :-D
11:24:07 <ais523> but out of all the Russian people called Nikita, one of them is a lot more likely to come to this channel than the others
11:25:23 <linf> ais523: pochemu?
11:26:33 <ais523> just based on what's happened in the past
11:26:39 <linf> I'll let you learn English, and I'll Russian
11:27:57 <ais523> no, just relying on whois data
11:28:20 <ais523> when I see an unusual nick in here, I try to work out if it's someone new, or otherwise, who it is
11:29:19 <linf> My nickname is unusual?
11:29:52 <ais523> well, not usually in this channel
11:31:02 -!- ehird95_ has joined.
11:31:06 -!- ehird95_ has changed nick to ehird.
11:31:17 <ehird> and that, ais523, is why i want a new graphics driver :P
11:32:04 <ehird> when a dos program takes focus
11:32:12 <ehird> graphics go all weird
11:32:16 <ehird> might be virtualbox bug
11:32:19 <ehird> but it still occurs
11:32:34 * ehird waits for ehird95 to die
11:33:34 <ais523> the perils of unregistered nicks
11:34:07 <ehird> i live dangerously, god damn
11:34:08 <linf> ehird: privet =)))
11:34:33 <ehird> all of a sudden the minimize/maximize animations are really slow...
11:34:59 <linf> ais523: my info says that I am Nikita?
11:35:12 <ais523> yes, it's your username
11:35:16 <ais523> as opposed to your nick, which is linf
11:35:30 <ais523> IRC usernames are more or less irrelevant nowadays, tbg
11:35:56 <fizzie> And your real name is "purple"; coincidentally, x-chat's rainbow-colors-for-nicks thing has allocated a reasonably purple color for the nick, too.
11:36:25 <linf> ais523: if not written, that I am Nikita, how do you know that I am Nikita?
11:36:38 <ais523> well, you could be lying
11:36:45 <ais523> but your client /thinks/ you are Nikita, somewhere
11:37:21 <linf> My client - a psychic =)))
11:37:35 <ais523> it could be your username on your own computer
11:37:40 <ais523> that's a common way to determine what username to use on IRC
11:37:53 <ais523> and people often use their real name for that
11:37:54 -!- ehird95 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
11:38:22 <linf> So who wants to have a friend in Russia? For me, it is important to better learn English
11:39:01 <linf> I do not hide ...
11:39:12 -!- ehird95 has joined.
11:39:18 <linf> ais523: what is your name?
11:39:31 <ais523> according to my whois data, it's hidden
11:39:39 <ais523> and presumably I should trust it on that
11:39:55 <ais523> I mean, forgetting who I was would be embarassing...
11:40:39 <linf> I did not understand nothing ... I do not know very well English
11:40:58 <ais523> there's a channel ##english on Freenode to help people learn English
11:41:48 <Slereah_> I are having many english speakings thanking much
11:41:49 <linf> but I want to talk on the topic and teach the esoteric
11:42:31 <ehird95> linf: we're not about esoterica
11:42:36 <ehird95> just esoteric programming languages
11:43:16 <Slereah_> I PUT ON MY WIZARD ROBE AND HAT
11:43:17 <ehird95> freenode is mostly about technology
11:43:28 <linf> Russian music what do you know?
11:43:34 <Slereah_> Hooks for feet... Eyes... Made of wood!
11:43:41 <ehird95> Russian music, now there's a topic.
11:43:51 <ehird95> That's not esoterica nor esolangs. Has anyone come in here for russian music before?
11:44:39 <linf> not understand
11:44:42 <ehird95> linf: this isn't the channel for you. sorry
11:45:01 <fizzie> ais523: You mean (this is obviously not my real name) is not actually your real name? "What."
11:45:37 <linf> sad... Why someone does not like Russian =(((
11:46:42 <ehird95> we didn't actually say that.
11:47:43 <linf> I just want interesting international communication! :-[
11:51:10 -!- ehird95 has changed nick to jioretjoi5.
11:52:33 -!- jioretjoi5 has changed nick to ehird95.
11:52:45 <ehird95> hey, i just realised my name is appropriate in more ways than one
11:53:08 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
11:54:04 <ehird95> 0.01 points for recognizing why
11:58:27 <ais523> hmm... were you born in 1995?
11:59:33 <ehird95> Slereah_: first one is "am using" which was the original intention
12:00:13 <fizzie> Aww, I didn't have time for my guess: you create a similar combustion results than a 95 % iso-octane / 5 % heptane fuel mixture.
12:00:50 <ehird95> Windows 95 should have a mouse-updater in the kernel so that you never have a laggy mouse. :P
12:02:16 <ehird95> grr... there really needs to be something like task manager in 2000
12:02:22 <linf> Windows 95 =-O
12:02:24 <ehird95> so that you can see what processes are making your system lag
12:02:25 <ais523> oh, for a moment I thought you meant mouse driver updates in the kernel
12:03:47 <linf> ehird95: i love you frend
12:04:39 <fizzie> fungot: And which OS do you use?
12:04:40 <fungot> fizzie: i ask fnord about africa) is an artifact of a particular form? i lack unicode terminals. :) you guys always have something to match ( a b)) using curried terms. how might you write the rest of her sf is good, i surely have *that* ;p
12:05:11 -!- Pthing has joined.
12:06:06 <ais523> ugh, the idea of trying to learn English from fungot has just crossed my mind
12:06:07 <fungot> ais523: fizzie'll be there to make it print out _every_ replacement operation, and then some
12:06:23 <ais523> wow, that was... really in-context, and made sense
12:06:30 <ais523> and was even a plausible reply to my comment
12:06:35 <ehird95> it only made some sort of sense, mind
12:06:38 <ais523> that's one of the best fungot responses ever
12:06:38 <fungot> ais523: i'll hang around here. been poking through the wiki
12:06:56 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
12:06:57 <ehird95> he might get ideas about rewriting himself...
12:06:58 <linf> ааааааааааааааааааааааааааааааа
12:07:04 <ehird95> don't do that fungot, mmkay?
12:07:06 <fungot> ehird95: it will be too much. i just got linked to " t" without the leading dot as one of the dirs in load-path, after adding an autoload and the filename association, i got all excited about going to sleep
12:07:26 <ehird95> yeah, messing with drugs like that can mess you up, who gets excited about sleeping?
12:07:28 <fungot> ehird95: that's right. it was in this channel
12:07:39 <ehird95> at least you could have done it in private...
12:07:47 <fizzie> Maybe I should start selling the code to various schools as a tool for learning English.
12:07:48 <ehird95> ais523: are we sure fungot hasn't actually spontaneously emerged as a strong AI?
12:07:49 <fungot> ehird95: i don't even want to know me!!! so that will probably work better
12:07:49 <ais523> why isn't HackEgo here? I want to qdb that fungot comment...
12:07:49 <fungot> ais523: that method shouldn't be underestimated though, just sign on and listen to some. i just wanted to ping ehird, as i said
12:08:47 <ais523> "i don't even want to know me!!!" is a good quote too, but potentially verbatim
12:09:04 <fizzie> It is being done using the magic of YOUR BRAIN, which can make topical out of just about anything.
12:09:17 <ais523> sometimes is more topical than other times
12:10:29 <ehird95> ais523: well, it referred to rewriting itself in another language as too much and described a horrific linker accident where, after adding an entry to the linker autoload path and setting up a file association its brain chemistry made it excited about going to sleep, and then mentioned that it was in this chnnel.
12:10:30 <linf> but still I love Madonna
12:10:38 <ehird95> that's remarkably coherent, even for fungot :P
12:10:39 <fungot> ehird95: you should have called it ++c c-- --c) and ( compose-event-monitor thunk2 em), when a context of an interpreter
12:10:51 <ehird95> that's a really bad name, fungot.
12:10:52 <fungot> ehird95: when tiny-clos allocates a generic function, it's a fnord
12:11:08 * ehird95 resists the urge to fork tiny-clos and rewrite it to call them fnords
12:11:10 <ais523> you're right, that's an /incredibly/ bad name
12:11:14 <ais523> anyone want to add it to esolang/
12:11:25 <ehird95> I can't even tell what the name is
12:11:34 <ehird95> ++cc c-- --c) and ( compose-event-monitor thunk2 em)?
12:11:42 <ais523> that was my first guess
12:11:59 <fizzie> I should fix the whitespacing, though.
12:12:02 <ehird95> fungot's Scheme is so very stylistic; he loves putting that space after the opening paren.
12:12:03 <fungot> ehird95: is on the infinite machine; the same solution.
12:12:16 <ehird95> fungot: sweet, I love infinity machines!
12:12:16 <fungot> ehird95: and i'll do the next excersise... thx for the ref :) thanks
12:12:25 <ehird95> ...but I want to use it, fungot :|
12:13:45 <fizzie> Next time I need a name for a project, I'll just go http://pastebin.com/m20f7a77c
12:14:14 <fizzie> "++c, tail of the stream maker" has a nice ring to it.
12:14:20 <ehird95> allocates one (bad) is a silly name.
12:14:32 <ehird95> [[you should have called it sins: sins is not scheme at all is useful. each implementation does things slightly differently the latter is nonstandard, but most implementations have "real" programming language.]]
12:15:11 <ehird95> "you should have called it pinkfluffyponies and it would act like minion does in lisp it does wiki lookups" :D
12:15:33 <ehird95> "you should have called it pinkfluffyponies and it would run infinitely slowly or so. was there ever a gigantic hoax in computer science?" yes, infinitely slow pink fluffy ponies
12:17:41 <fizzie> It's a bit too fixated on pink fluffy ponies (and whose fault is that, eh?) and that silly "++c c-- --c" name.
12:21:51 <ehird95> I'd better learn how to work the Open Watcom IDE.
12:22:08 <ehird95> ais523: have you ever used it? you seem like the type to
12:22:30 <ais523> I had heard of it, but no more
12:22:35 <ais523> I /am/ probably the type to, just haven't
12:23:09 <ehird95> I haven't yet managed to create and edit a file in a project...
12:24:21 <fizzie> Another fungot gem: "believes in santa, or possibly codepoints."
12:24:21 <fungot> fizzie: i noticed." i was trying to use lambda yet? it's s'posed to
12:24:38 <fizzie> Yes, often when kids learn santa isn't real, they start to believe in codepoints instead.
12:24:57 <ehird95> ais523: the programs have a greyed out help menu item, and a separate top-level start menu folder for just the help books...
12:25:10 <ais523> which windows help format?
12:25:29 <ais523> but as we're talking windows 95, it'll either be winhelp (or winhlp32), or chm
12:26:55 <ehird95> it's formatted, but not htmlcrap
12:28:46 <fizzie> August 1997 HTML Help 1.0 (HH 1.0) was released with Internet Explorer 4.
12:28:46 <fizzie> February 1998 HTML Help 1.1a shipped with Windows 98.
12:29:37 <fizzie> Well, yes. A bit newer than your '95.
12:30:31 -!- linf has left (?).
12:30:54 <fizzie> What are they doing nowadays? Wikipedia speaks about something called "Microsoft Help 2" with .hxs files, and an upcoming "Microsoft Help 3" where a .mshc file is just a renamed zip with XHTML 1.x and images/other-data inside.
12:31:07 <ehird95> Just whatever they had in XP.
12:31:18 <ehird95> With the question/answer checkboxes "wizard" troubleshooters; all useless.
12:32:35 <fizzie> "In 2008 Microsoft relented and released a download of WinHlp32.exe for Windows Vista and Windows Server 2008 at http://support.microsoft.com/kb/917607". I like the use of the word "relent" there.
12:33:49 <ais523> they should just use Info format
12:35:34 <ais523> what's wrong with this channel? I say something obviously ridiculous and nobody responds...
12:36:33 <ehird95> well, I had mIRC minimized to tray and hadn't hit it for a few minutes
12:37:15 <fizzie> I got lost in the Texinfo reference manual. :p
12:38:16 <Leonidas> I haven't ever seen a .hxs file
12:38:47 <Leonidas> even .chm seems to be loosing on the ebookz market to pdf.
12:40:03 <fizzie> .hxs files are used in the modern (.NET and later) Visual Studio help system.
12:40:16 <fizzie> They look quite messy, though it might be just that the help system is so large.
12:40:31 <Leonidas> ok, so i stumbled upon them without knowing.
12:40:50 <fizzie> "Microsoft Help 2.x is the help engine used in Microsoft Visual Studio 2002/2003/2005/2008 and Office 2007."
12:41:07 <Leonidas> well, the online MSDN also looks messy, I guess thats mostly a Microsoft-thing
12:41:53 <Leonidas> Microsoft has a talent for hiding good documentation in the most awkward places.
12:44:31 <ais523> MSDN also has a talent for self-contradiction
12:44:41 <ais523> because searching it keeps finding the wrong version of the API, or whatever
12:51:39 -!- ehird has joined.
12:54:24 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
12:59:32 -!- ehird95 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
13:00:38 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird95.
13:02:24 -!- FireFly has joined.
13:02:49 <fizzie> Says something about the priorities of people: things have started to collect in the "fremantle-extras" Maemo 5 repository; discounting supporting libraries and such, there are 6 real packages; and one of them is the robotfindskitten game.
13:03:54 <fizzie> Obviously http://rfk.garage.maemo.org/ is what really needs to be there before the official device launch.
13:05:38 -!- sebbu3 has joined.
13:10:56 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
13:15:02 <ehird95> yay, I've added Fitts.c to the project C:\Code\Fitts\Fitts.wpj
13:15:10 <ehird95> and am now editing C:\Code\Fitts\Fitts.c in the Wacom editor
13:22:07 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
13:22:08 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:54:26 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
14:33:34 <oklopol> how's your internet today, internet folk
14:34:47 <oklopol> have i mentioned i hate calculus
14:35:31 <oklopol> of course, this time i hate it because integration is too hard, i suppose it's usually the other way around
14:36:48 <ais523> integration is one of those things that's impossible in general
14:36:50 <ais523> like comparing functions
14:37:19 <oklopol> i know; that's sort of the kind of stuff i know.
14:38:25 <fizzie> "The other way around", i.e. integration is too hard because you hate calculus?
14:38:46 <oklopol> anyway it's an iterated integral, integrating by either variable using the wolfram thingie gives an incomprehensible megaexpression
14:39:19 <oklopol> fizzie: almost; usually because it's too easy
14:39:50 <oklopol> so "for the opposite reason" or something to that bend might've been more diple.
14:39:55 <ais523> I can well imagine oklopol's hatred of something making it more difficult
14:40:00 <ais523> as you can't then ask oklopol for help
14:40:09 <ais523> anyway, it seems that we have an esolang name language clash
14:40:18 <ais523> as Keymaker created an esolang also called Clue
14:40:43 <oklopol> let's hope i keep this speed up at uni so i don't have time for esolangs :P
14:41:01 <fizzie> Either one of you could maybe add a diacritic somewhere.
14:41:43 <oklopol> wait that' looks like a c implementation of lua
14:42:04 <ais523> I don't see why we can't have two unrelated esolangs with exactly the same name
14:42:08 <fizzie> (It's an "e" with a combining inverted double arch below.)
14:42:11 <ais523> then we can have Clue (disambiguation)
14:42:30 <ais523> Esolang needs a dab page, it's feeling kind-of lonely without one
14:43:09 <fizzie> ais523: Having two languages with identical names will cause the Universe algorithm to become confusing, and it might accidentally merge the languages (and their authors) into a single entity.
14:43:24 <fizzie> s/confusing/confused/; it is confusing already.
14:44:02 <ais523> merging oklopol and Keymaker together could have rather weird results
14:44:24 <fizzie> Run, it's the oklomaker!
14:44:46 <ais523> wow, a sort of oklo factory would be worrying
14:45:03 <ais523> the whole world would be full of oklopols and oklofoks and oklojots and whatever
14:45:36 <ais523> and the average IQ would go massively over 100 and the contradiction would cause everything to become true
14:46:03 <oklopol> stop calling me intelligent, it's confusing :D
14:46:50 -!- kar8nga has joined.
14:47:10 <oklopol> yay only one month till universality proofs
14:47:17 <ais523> there's no reason you can't be both intelligent /and/ confused
14:47:31 <oklopol> probably more undecidability than universality
14:49:13 <oklopol> i like to think of computability theory as the art of ruining puzzles for mathematicians
14:50:09 <fizzie> Maybe I should stick some sort of PCFG babble-generator into fungot; that would mean more well-structured output, and the generation part is still really very simple, although not quite so trivial as with the current n-gram model.
14:50:09 <fungot> fizzie: i went through every book i could find
14:50:22 <fizzie> fungot: And still you can't really speak.
14:50:22 <fungot> fizzie: the helpful article might be a deliberate typo or someone has vandalized the text. perhaps the cards have jumpers to set the stack size
14:51:08 <oklopol> "the helpful article might be a deliberate typo"
14:51:22 <fungot> FireFly: thank you, that budapest national anthem!!! wrong channel :)
14:52:01 <fizzie> I'd need either POS-tagged corpora or a well-working tagger to get training data for that, though.
14:52:53 <oklopol> how can an article be a deliberate typo, i mean i suppose an article could be considered a typo if it was accidentally written, and a typo could be considered deliberate if it looked like it was an accident but wasn't
14:53:15 <oklopol> also sorting cards is my new hobby
14:53:48 <oklopol> not speedsorting, trying out different algos (my record is 2:15 or something)
14:54:03 <oklopol> (for speedsorting, in case someone happens to speedsort)
14:54:22 <oklopol> heapsort is kinda hard with a dog jumping on the cards
14:54:26 <fizzie> oklopol: Since we don't tolerate helpfulness around these parts, the article had to look like it was trying to be unhelpful, and someone had just accidentally written it so that it ended up being helpful after all. But the "mistake" was in fact deliberate, and now we'll need to find the culprit before everything's helpful.
14:55:04 <FireFly> That must've been what fungot meant
14:55:05 <fungot> FireFly: this one's better: it's a crime... and so on
14:55:37 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
14:55:49 <oklopol> fizzie: i suppose that's semipossible
14:56:32 <oklopol> my internet is broken, have to reboot the modemo thingie
14:56:42 <FireFly> the metanature of the article which was apparently a deliberate typo is confusing me :<
14:57:27 -!- oklofog has joined.
14:58:04 <oklofog> oh, right, i'm using a proxy slow as hell
14:58:44 <oklofog> tried to get megavideo to think i'm an american, seems proxys don't get me that, maybe one of you nerds can explain why
15:07:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
15:14:42 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
15:14:46 <oklofog> wait topic set by ais523, originally by ehird though, right?
15:16:18 <oklofog> should probably get back to my maths soon
15:16:36 <oklofog> been slackering for almost an hour
15:46:00 -!- nooga has joined.
15:50:21 -!- nooga_ has joined.
15:51:07 <nooga_> i've got a 'formal languages' course on my university
15:51:56 <nooga_> i thought that i could make a project instead of going to classes
15:55:30 <nooga_> the teacher said 'ok, but you have to construct a problem for yourself'
15:55:39 <nooga_> and i don't have an idea
16:00:02 <nooga_> i though about some metalanguage fun
16:03:55 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:05:10 -!- ehird95 has joined.
16:08:59 <ehird95> so, Nathan of toastytech (of huge-collection-of-screenshots-of-GUIs, crazy IE-eliminating and Windows 95-...well, tolerating fame) fame has posted on the mozilla forums and bugzilla to get the latest seamonkey working on windows 95 (which he still uses as his OS, apparently)
16:09:23 <ehird95> but mine doesn't even get to that stage; I think I need some DLLs from IE 4 (I obliterated IE entirely, hee)
16:09:33 <ehird95> so, yeah, time to extract some installers.
16:10:46 <ehird95> 06:55:05 <fungot> FireFly: this one's better: it's a crime... and so on
16:10:47 <fungot> ehird95: fnord sounds better that way. costs me next to nothing.
16:11:03 <ehird95> fungot: but is it ethical? i mean, doing all that just to make your fnords better? it costs PEOPLE'S LIVES, dude.
16:11:04 <fungot> ehird95: it's not a religious issue at all). note that lst may be a dotted list
16:11:11 <ehird95> fungot: you can have ethics without being religious
16:11:12 <fungot> ehird95: what book and what is not
16:11:17 <fungot> ehird95: are the dots for?
16:11:22 <ehird95> fungot: i don't know. what are the dots for?
16:13:13 <ehird95> also: hooray for irfanview, another quality program that runs on 95.
16:14:28 <ehird95> (boo for opera, eater of my system resources)
16:14:49 <fungot> ais523: http://pastebin.ca/ fnord on line 91. obviously things have changed.
16:15:27 <ais523> fungot: you linked to the home page by mistake, rather than to the actual paste...
16:15:28 <fungot> ais523: do you put your data on the stack than i intended, but almost :)
16:21:46 * ehird95 tries opera 9; apparently it's less hogging
16:23:08 <ehird95> i just deleted opera and now i have no browsers
16:25:09 -!- nooga_ has quit ("Lost terminal").
16:25:19 <ehird95> I could use ftp, if DOS prompts didn't fuck up the system.
16:25:34 <ehird95> Ah, IE 3 is on the Windows disc.
16:26:37 -!- ehird95 has quit.
16:58:11 -!- ehird95 has joined.
17:01:12 -!- jix has joined.
17:01:52 <ehird95> erm, what d you use to extract cabs and installers on windows?
17:02:04 <ais523> generally you just double-click them
17:02:16 <ehird95> on a .cab? no, that just gives the unknown file dialog
17:02:33 <ais523> it was very common to have GUI decompression software installed, normally shareware, back then
17:03:19 <ehird95> I have WinZip 6 installed, but it doesn't do cabs.
17:04:38 <ehird95> I guess I could install 7-Zip or something
17:04:41 <ais523> wow, I found the official instructions from Microsoft about extracting .cabs
17:04:49 <ais523> do you have internet access so you can see the stupidity for yourself?
17:04:54 <ais523> or shall I say it over IRC?
17:05:08 <ais523> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/129605 <--- so everyone can laugh at the windows 95 instructions
17:05:17 <ehird95> Opera 9 with a Windows ME dll helping it along, right now.
17:05:34 <ais523> it suggests using Start | Find | Files or Folders to find extract.exe
17:05:38 <ehird95> Somehow adding this ME component actually *improves* its operation.
17:05:44 <ais523> on the installation disk
17:05:46 <ehird95> Which would, at first site, seem to be an anti-tautology.
17:05:50 <ais523> and then, copying it to the root directory of drive C
17:06:13 <ais523> this is Microsoft's own advice, surely they'd know where it was?
17:07:05 -!- ehird95 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:07:29 <ais523> (I also love the way the instructions are different for Windows 95, 98, and ME)
17:07:32 -!- ehird95 has joined.
17:07:37 <ais523> <ais523> (I also love the way the instructions are different for Windows 95, 98, and ME)
17:07:50 <ehird95> I was testing to see if extract.exe is already included in Windows 95. I gather it was, because I got a DOSboxcrash.
17:08:10 <ais523> so in other words, the instructions are not only ridiculous, but also unnecessarily convoluted?
17:08:28 <ehird95> So, I guess my first task is to fix DOS prompts.
17:13:09 <ais523> in hardware or software?
17:15:31 <ehird95> by snapping one o the prongs that plugs into the key hole, thing
17:15:38 <ehird95> "If you try Scitech Display Doctor as an alternative VGA Driver: You must try Version 7. Versions before this (5.x, 6.x) are known not to work."
17:15:51 <ehird95> how am i meant to ping izzie :D
17:19:11 <ais523> I'm guessing that the key in question is f
17:19:19 <ais523> and I'll ping fizzie for you if necessary
17:20:10 <ehird95> That's totally alse. What a raternical attitude, to associate like a ern the concept o the key when there is no ucking rational evidence to back up the claim. I have expelled latulence more logical and unny!
17:21:00 <ais523> it would be so great if you were bluffing
17:21:19 <ais523> can you easily remap it to one of the other keys?
17:21:25 <ais523> maybe in the virtualiser?
17:21:34 <ais523> there are all the F-keys, as well as f itself, for instance
17:22:37 <ehird95> wll th ky dosn't it into that hol
17:23:07 <ehird95> rtttttttttttttttttr334445544444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444444cttt
17:23:24 <ais523> you don't need to change the physical layout...
17:23:27 <ehird95> yhhhhhhhhhhhhhh5555555555555yhyu
17:24:03 <ehird95> i was yinh yo puy yhw "3" (back) kyy in sloy
17:24:59 <ehird95> Possible success! Fucking yay!
17:25:03 <ais523> you're typing reall badly
17:25:16 <ais523> presumably this is due to the keyboard problems
17:25:22 <ehird95> [17:05] <ehird95> i was yinh yo puy yhw "3" (back) kyy in sloy
17:25:28 <ehird95> the whole block of keys around f was totally missing
17:25:44 <ehird95> i was trying to put the "3" (back) (i.e. backwards i.e. e) key in slot (i.e. slot of f key)
17:26:00 <ehird95> ugh, the f key's tactileness is subtly but annoyingly different now
17:26:13 <ehird95> rebooting for SciTech Displa Doctor 7 Beta!
17:26:21 <ais523> is your keyboard back in order?
17:26:22 -!- ehird95 has quit.
17:31:24 -!- ehird95 has joined.
17:31:30 <ehird95> good news: the driver seems to work
17:31:40 <ehird95> bad news: the configuration panel looks like XP and has animations.
17:31:47 <ehird95> I hope I can not run it all the time
17:31:57 <ehird95> Also, of course, I will have to pirate it.
17:32:07 <ais523> is it a shareware driver?
17:32:21 <ehird95> Yes; Scion Display Doctor aka UniVBE or whatever it's called.
17:33:13 <ais523> shareware drivers are a horrible horrible thought
17:33:26 <ais523> my mind is refusing to comprehend the possibility that they exist
17:33:34 <ais523> even though you've said they do
17:33:58 <ehird95> ais523: they DID code support for thousands upon thousands of graphics cards -- literally
17:34:10 <ehird95> so it's understandable, if misguided, that they'd demand money for it
17:34:20 <ais523> yes, but suppose the time runs out; you'll then be unable to see your screen
17:34:29 <ehird95> no, it'll revert to the default VGA driver that can run anything.
17:34:41 <ehird95> windows 95 does that automatically, unlike ancient technology such as, uh, Xorg.
17:35:01 <ehird95> anyway i doubt the actual driver checks the licenses
17:35:20 <ehird95> maybe it spawns something that does, but i highly doubt there's license-checking code inside the driverspace
17:35:42 <ehird95> aaaand command prompts work
17:36:13 <ehird95> hope there's a serial for this somewhere.
17:36:44 * ehird95 installs powerstrip to see if he can get the resolution to be 16:10
17:36:58 <ais523> are you planning on sticking with windows 95, btw?
17:37:13 <ais523> using it as a main OS for a while
17:37:20 <ais523> (also, is that a legit copy?)
17:37:25 <ehird95> well, that's effectively what I'm doing, albeit in a VM. also, no.
17:37:35 <ehird95> I doubt this thing will actually become my main OS.
17:37:38 <ais523> we should port LGA to it
17:37:44 <ehird95> But it *is* suprisingly capable, and I like the GUI.
17:37:58 <ehird95> (did you really have to ask whether it was legit, by the way? I mean, it's me!)
17:38:03 <ais523> so it can become legit
17:38:06 <ais523> (probably easier than porting WGA, because we don't have the source to that)
17:38:30 <ehird95> i'm not sure microsoft would cooperate :)
17:39:25 * ehird95 decides to give a name to small programs, generally run at startup, that apply globally to the OS and have no UI apart from configuration (if even that)
17:39:37 <ehird95> for instance, Rain is a fixup that runs hlt on idle cycles
17:40:00 <ais523> ehird95: sort-of like services on UNIX?
17:40:05 <ehird95> the only UI is a system tray icon that you can right click to turn it off/on (it hides/shows rain drops hitting a chip), and if you left-click it a little about dialog pops up (strangely without any attribution)
17:40:17 <ehird95> personally I'd prefer it had no system tray; you can just kill it if you want to disable it
17:40:35 <ais523> an about box that doesn't say who made it
17:40:41 <ais523> that's like, the purpose of about boxes
17:40:59 <ais523> even the Windows programs I made years ago had help|about menu items that put up a message box
17:41:06 <ehird95> well, no; it tells you what processor it's optimised for
17:41:14 <ehird95> (it's an option when you install)
17:42:40 <ehird95> ais523: anyway, I called them fixups for a reason; it's genreeally of the form "this should be like this in the OS, but it isn't"
17:42:55 <ehird95> or, less mildly, "I prefer the OS to work this way, but it isn't an option; this works instead"
17:43:12 <ehird95> Fitts, for instance, will be a fixup of the first kind: the OS should obey Fitts' Law, and dammit I'm going to make it.
17:43:35 <ehird95> (It'll be installed entirely into the StartUp menu, and have no UI; you can terminate it via Ctrl+Alt+Delete if you want.)
17:44:26 <ais523> how are you going to magically make Windows 95 obey Fitts' Law?
17:44:42 <ais523> and will you make every program do so? or just the things that are part of the OS? or just the things that came with the OS?
17:44:45 <ehird95> well, only one instance actually annoys me that I've noticed: the task bar
17:44:57 <ais523> does the start button work in the bottom-left corner/
17:45:14 <ais523> what about closeboxes?
17:45:20 <ehird95> however, just fixing that isn't all
17:45:27 <ehird95> you can't swipe to the bottom pixel to switch window
17:45:33 <ehird95> so what i'm doing is, removing the border of the task bar
17:45:37 <ehird95> imagine the start button and the window buttons
17:45:41 <ehird95> and just put them right next to each other
17:45:57 <ehird95> and then put that at the bottom of the screen, the regular gray blank taskbar area (but smaller, since it's without the padding)
17:46:07 <ehird95> then the system tray, with its indented border again being as high as the whole thing
17:46:15 <ehird95> fitt's law obeyed, graphical consistency obeyed
17:46:58 <ehird95> it should be quite easy, too
17:47:14 <ehird95> just basically moving the task bar slightly off screen, then painting over it a bit to make the graphics look good
17:47:24 <ehird95> (slightly off screen so that the buttons flush with the screen edges)
17:47:48 <ehird95> well, and force-clipping its height so windows can go in the unused space where there would be padding
17:48:04 <ehird95> then just some extra hackery to move the button widgets next to each other
17:48:16 <ehird95> windows 95 has basically no protections, so i should be able to do it without asking please.
17:51:41 <fizzie> I was not very pokeable, being shopping and eating and thing.
17:53:34 <ehird95> Anyone know how to make a Windows monitor definition file?
17:55:05 <fizzie> I did one once, but I certainly have forgotten the knowledge by now.
17:55:19 <fizzie> It was for the 666x666 screen mode I used in Linux, I think.
17:55:29 <fizzie> Perhaps not so useful.
17:56:58 <ehird95> Yay, I can close that awful XP-like thing without breaking the drivers.
17:57:07 <ehird95> My world is a house of joy.
17:57:26 <ehird95> Time to install SeaMonkey 1.1.17, because you have to patch it to get .18 working.
17:57:54 <ehird95> So, I don't suppose anyone knows of something like the task manager for Windows 9x?
17:57:59 <fizzie> There's this http://www.tkk.fi/Misc/Electronics/faq/vga2rgb/calc.html thing I might've used; it does monitor.inf format for timings, though not a complete file.
17:58:08 <ehird95> You know, listing processes, their memory usage, their CPU usage, and letting you kill them.
17:58:21 <ehird95> I found one but it sucked so much as to be useless.
17:58:43 <ehird95> fizzie: Timings don't matter if the screen isn't real, do they?
17:59:17 <fizzie> I guess not, no. You just needed the right resolution or something?
17:59:44 <ehird95> Yah; I'm using VESA BIOS stuff and want mah 1680x1050.
18:00:08 <fizzie> I'm not completely sure you'll get it with the VESA driver unless you can get VirtualBox's fakey VESA BIOS to advertise that mode, but who knows.
18:01:00 <ehird95> Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
18:01:44 <ehird95> Erm, what's the DOS pager?
18:01:57 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:02:06 <ais523> same as in UNIX, come to think of it
18:02:14 <ehird95> I wasn't thinking of that one, but that'll do
18:02:21 <fizzie> There's the built-in "dir/p".
18:02:42 <ehird95> anyone know the command-line switch to mozilla browsers to run in "safe mode" or whatever?
18:02:47 <ehird95> i.e., you're not starting up. stop that. start up. mode
18:02:58 <ehird95> fizzie: that's what I was thinking of
18:03:04 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
18:03:15 <fizzie> Heh, in the DOS 6 configuration I have (with cracked 4dos and all kinds of customizations) somehow more.com has gotten corrupted, and piping anything to more causes an instant reboot.
18:05:01 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:05:39 <fizzie> Compiled to command.com, sure; the tab completion was nice, for example.
18:05:50 <fizzie> I don't really remember what the must-have features were.
18:05:51 <ehird95> Compiled to what what what now?
18:06:16 <ehird95> But indeed, no tab completion is annoying me.
18:06:53 <fizzie> There's also a pretty colorful variant of 'dir', with a lot more flags.
18:07:25 <fizzie> I guess you could use a ported ls.
18:08:15 <fizzie> The 4dos "dir" isn't too shabby though.
18:08:26 <fizzie> I had just that with the right flags aliased.
18:08:53 <ehird95> I wonder if WebKit compiles on 9x, and if not, how much effort it'd be to port it.
18:08:58 <fizzie> Right, and you get a bit more conventional memory free with 4dos than command.com, but that's probably not an issue if you're mostly win95'ing.
18:09:30 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4DOS and the "Features" list is probably pretty comprehensive. The better batch files I've used, though it's obviously only for personal things, since otherwise non-4dos people couldn't use them.
18:11:19 <Asztal> If webkit uses cairo on windows, that could be a problem. (That's primarily why firefox 3 dropped support for 98, I think)
18:12:15 <ehird95> To hell with 98, I'm talkin' 'bout 95.
18:12:27 <ehird95> Anyway, I don't know if it does.
18:14:20 <fizzie> There's quite a lot of Webkit ports, so either it's not horribly difficult to port, or alternatively people have just been suitably inspired.
18:14:56 <ehird95> Well, there's an Official(TM) build. I'd worry that it'd use Apple's font rendering and widgets like in Safari, but the code for those will be Top Secret, s.
18:15:19 <ehird95> And the source is available, obviously, so.
18:15:35 * ehird95 downloads it to see if it balks
18:17:30 <AnMaster> in perl what is the B:: "namespace" of modules
18:17:45 <ehird95> Well, not really internals.
18:17:52 <ehird95> Just an exposure of the Perl compiler stuff so you can be Xzibit.
18:18:38 <ehird95> We go through this every three months, AnMaster.
18:18:58 <ehird95> I swear to God we do. Every goddamn time you've completely forgotten every memory of it entirely.
18:19:17 <AnMaster> ehird95, was it something related to CS?
18:19:54 <ais523> AnMaster: it'll be on Wikipedia, if you've forgotten
18:20:02 <ehird95> The article isn't very helpful, I imagine.
18:20:05 <AnMaster> some actor or such using that stage name
18:20:44 <ehird95> Originating from Pimp My Ride, vis-a-vis Xzibit putting objects of desire of person P inside P's car, vis-a-vis vapid, vis-a-vis meme potential.
18:20:48 <AnMaster> and I forgot what that meme was about
18:21:08 <ehird95> VIS-A-VIS yo dawg I heard you like verb(X)ing I put an X in your Y so you can verb(X) while you verb(Y)
18:21:30 <ehird95> VIS-A-FUCKIN'-VIS morphing into X=Y.
18:21:32 <ais523> s/verb(X)ing/participle(X)/
18:21:39 <ehird95> Thus, being Xzibit ~= doing meta-things.
18:22:14 <fizzie> Ooh, the status indicator in the service company's tracking page for the broken monitor has changed from red ("in queue") to yellow ("being worked on").
18:23:59 <fizzie> There's nothing else useful on the tracking page, but at least I can neurotically look at the indicator and wait until it turns green ("ready").
18:24:29 <fizzie> Then I... uh, I guess I just wait for them to contact me. What is this tracking thing good for, actually?
18:25:42 <ais523> it's like the nethack devteam with their buglist
18:25:54 <ais523> it gives the impression of progress without actually benefitting anyone
18:28:19 <fizzie> Oh, there's a subpage with an "event log"; the event log currently has (for today) three copies of the message "received at the service point" and one empty message.
18:29:50 <ehird95> "A Modern Webkit browser on Windows 98
18:29:50 <ehird95> Thanks to cfchris6 who compiled a binary of Arora that runs on Windows98"
18:29:57 <ehird95> Surely must run on 95 then!
18:30:14 <ehird95> Arora kinda... sucks, though.
18:33:01 -!- sebbu has joined.
18:36:53 -!- sebbu3 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
18:38:14 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
18:54:29 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out).
18:54:29 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
19:17:28 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:40:00 -!- ehird95 has quit.
20:18:31 -!- jix has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
20:18:31 -!- ais523 has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
20:18:31 -!- Slereah_ has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
20:18:31 -!- rodgort has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
20:18:31 -!- pikhq has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
20:18:32 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
20:18:32 -!- Leonidas has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
20:18:34 -!- Warrigal has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
20:19:00 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
20:19:00 -!- jix has joined.
20:19:00 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:19:00 -!- rodgort has joined.
20:19:00 -!- Leonidas has joined.
20:19:00 -!- pikhq has joined.
20:19:00 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
20:19:00 -!- Warrigal has joined.
20:22:28 <ais523> is this freenode getting rid of their memory leaks?
20:26:24 <oerjan> must be, since netsplits have never happened before
20:39:43 <oerjan> (so long he has to recheck, actually)
20:40:44 <oerjan> indeed, there was an error with the nvg server so i didn't get onto irc
20:41:47 <AnMaster> oerjan, not that I was here hours ago either. Was listening to someone talking about discrete mathematics at university.
20:44:38 -!- ehird95 has joined.
20:44:51 <ehird95> SeaMonkey sucks, there is nothing better
20:44:55 <ehird95> however, it sucks less than Opera
20:47:28 <AnMaster> well then, do main browsing outside vm and just the stuff you actually need the vm for inside the vm?
20:47:37 <ehird95> I don't need this VM for anything.
20:48:03 <ehird95> I decided to try Windows 95, and as an extended experiment/what-if I'm, well, using it.
20:48:26 <ehird95> Apart from the whole finding applications thing, the programs that come with 95 are nicer than XP's or 7's...
20:48:43 <ehird95> Although they could do with supporting Unicode.
20:49:17 <AnMaster> <ehird95> Apart from the whole finding applications thing, the programs that come with 95 are nicer than XP's or 7's... <-- hm..
20:49:26 <ehird95> Yes. They're wonderfully simple.
20:49:38 <AnMaster> err how is that inherently good?
20:49:46 <ehird95> For one, Explorer is pleasant to use and has a real design.
20:49:58 <ehird95> And isn't over-cluttered with 400 million options.
20:50:06 <AnMaster> ehird95, explorer in xp is quite reasonable to use. Windows 7... not so
20:50:16 <ehird95> Yeah, I could never use XP's explorer after using 95's.
20:50:18 <ais523> AnMaster: explorer before 98 was really nice
20:50:26 <ais523> 98 brought in some weird HTML folder description thing, though
20:50:35 <ais523> so you could translate your folders to HTML and have persistent something-or-others
20:50:36 <AnMaster> ais523, explorer in 98 was hell yes
20:50:36 <ehird95> Yep, 98 came and fucked it up with its wonderful IE-OS-component bullshit
20:50:42 <ehird95> AnMaster: you have a mental defect
20:50:47 <ehird95> either that or you have never used anything before 98
20:50:53 <ehird95> and have severely lowered standards
20:51:00 <ehird95> 98's explorer is unbearable...
20:51:06 <ais523> ehird95: that's what AnMaster said!
20:51:12 <AnMaster> ehird95, I used 95 a bit. Not much. And note "<AnMaster> ais523, explorer in 98 was hell yes"
20:51:26 <ais523> I ended up using Explorer in 98 quite a bit
20:51:30 <ais523> it isn't unusable, just awful
20:51:40 <AnMaster> I may actually have an 98 OEM CD somewhere
20:52:06 <ehird95> Well, if you use 95's explorer for any length of time to do actual stuff, then 98's for a time, and come out of it saying 98's explorer is hell yes... I'm thinking this might be a case of there being an actual objective right/wrong opinion on things. :P
20:52:22 <ehird95> Also: Wow IrfanView can do a lt.
20:52:48 <AnMaster> I remember the weird manual with 98 (OEM at least) had some sort of "rub this area of the outside of the manual that looks like something found on money and it should change colour. If it doesn't this copy is fake"
20:53:04 <ehird95> Ah yes, hologram piracy protection!
20:53:40 <AnMaster> ehird95, well not exactly. I don't think "warm it up and check if it changes colour" counts as a "hologram"
20:53:53 <ehird95> Really Obvious Giving Away Of Non-Nativeness In SeaMonkey, #742: My OS draws outlines for windows when resizing. SeaMonkey redraws the window constantly.
20:54:15 <ehird95> Less noticably, it uses its own icon for the resize-diagonal cursor, an I have no clue why.
20:55:59 <ehird95> The Watcom IDE is so, so stereotypically Win3.1.
20:58:13 <AnMaster> argh not again.... google holiday logo on results page but not on main page
20:58:48 <AnMaster> http://www.google.com/logos/gandhi09res.gif
21:01:41 * ehird95 has the crushing realisation that he doesn't even know what the prototype for WinMain is, and yet wants to mess with the task bar
21:03:24 <AnMaster> if you mean adding something to the area near the clock?
21:03:32 <ehird95> No; that's trivial compared to what I'm doing.
21:03:39 <ehird95> In practical terms, my code will:
21:03:55 <ehird95> - move the task bar down and left so that they end off the edge of the display
21:04:11 <ehird95> - forcefully clip the height of the task bar from the top to a certain height
21:04:22 <ehird95> - change spacing between widgets in the task bar
21:04:28 <ehird95> and possibly a little bit more.
21:04:36 <oerjan> AnMaster: i have gandhi on the main page *BWAHAHAHA*
21:04:46 <ehird95> This, while not restricted in any way - 95 has no protection, after all - is going to be non-trivial.
21:05:00 <ehird95> *so that it ends off the edge
21:05:04 <ehird95> Weird pluralisation typo there.
21:05:36 <oklofog> some of wp's sort pages have switched to static sorting visualization
21:05:38 <ehird95> A better alternative to the first one would be moving the widgets in the task bar, which I can probably do.
21:06:17 * oerjan cannot see oklofog clearly
21:06:21 <ehird95> AnMaster: The user-interface effect of this code is that the task bar will obey Fitts' Law: you can hit the bottom-left pixel in the screen to open the start menu, you can select a window even if you hit the very bottom pixel, etc.
21:06:53 <ehird95> AnMaster: This is a Very Good Thing, because the current taskbar is mildly but significantly annoying (I'm unintentionally training myself to be slower aiming for it, which reduces annoyance almost entirely but makes me slower).
21:07:03 <ehird95> AnMaster: It's a law about the easiest places to access with the mouse.
21:07:11 <ehird95> Anything on the screen edge has infinite width/height.
21:07:17 <ehird95> You can move your mouse up and up and it'll stay there.
21:07:36 <ehird95> And things with infinite height are the easiest to hit; the easiest places on the screen to hit are the exact position your cursor is in, and the four corners.
21:07:52 <ehird95> It has more subtle results than that, but that's the only part my application uses.
21:08:05 <AnMaster> ehird95, what are the more subtle results?
21:08:19 <ehird95> Like the easiest places to reach in-between those two extremes.
21:08:36 <AnMaster> ehird95, also it isn't true always. Hitting left side of my desktop is currently rather hard due to synergy.
21:08:52 <ehird95> Anyway, Windows 2000 onwards or somesuch already lets you open the start menu with a bottom-leftmost click, but it doesn't redraw the widgets so that the start menu actually ends at the screen edge, which looks weird, and it doesn't let you hit the bottom pixel of the screen to switch windows.
21:09:08 <ehird95> AnMaster: It works perfectly fine there, it just considers both computers as one desktoop.
21:09:13 <ehird95> Because, as far as the mouse is concerned, they are.
21:09:33 <ehird95> Of course, since nothing on the other computer is useful to software on the other, it basically limits the choices of the application.
21:09:52 <AnMaster> ehird95, yes, you just have to be aware of that the mouse does not stop at the bottom left corner when going to the K menu
21:10:18 <AnMaster> I often end up clicking the right end of the panel on my laptop instead
21:10:29 <AnMaster> on the other hand, the alternative is worse
21:10:46 <AnMaster> which means I have to sit at an awkward angle for one of the computers
21:10:55 <ehird95> Just set up a delay, dude.
21:11:01 <ehird95> Like 100ms before it switches.
21:11:13 <ehird95> Then it shouldn't really be an issue so much.
21:11:29 <ehird95> Maybe you could add an exception for that corner pixel.
21:11:38 <AnMaster> ehird95, well the delay helps a lot. But still I have issues with that yeah
21:11:39 <ehird95> I doubt you want to switch computers through it so very often.
21:12:12 <AnMaster> and well not a lot unless I'm copying stuff between them
21:13:40 <ehird95> So add an exception for that corner pixel.
21:13:51 <ehird95> Voila, Fitts' Law is saved for the most useful cases (the corners).
21:14:02 <AnMaster> ehird95, just have to find out how
21:14:08 <ehird95> Well, yes, that would be the hard part. :P
21:14:27 <AnMaster> and yeah I should probably add a bit more than that single pixel. since I seem to often hit like 4-5 pixels up the side
21:14:42 <AnMaster> however when I actually *want* to switch it is often somewhere in the upper 2/3rd
21:14:55 <ehird95> It's alright, ehird95. We'll work out Win32. Together.
21:15:12 <ehird95> You don't have to be scared on the WinMain() and the HWND and the LPTREXISTENTIALHORROR.
21:15:34 <ehird95> Come on ehird95. Let's just open the browser and go to Google. CALM DOWN. It will not destroy your soul. Uh, much.
21:15:36 <AnMaster> LPTREXISTENTIALHORROR <--- LPT REXTISTENTAL HORROR?
21:15:43 <ehird95> Long pointer to existential horror.
21:16:22 <AnMaster> ehird95, are you sure it is actually possible to do this without basically patching system files?
21:16:29 <ehird95> ELLIOTT. Do not think about the fact that they use stdcall. They are not on crack! Okay, fine, they are on crack. But that doesn't mean you'll be on crack too! When using it? I think?
21:16:35 <ehird95> AnMaster: Windows 95 has no protection.
21:16:37 <AnMaster> do it as a windows 95 plus theme thingy
21:16:42 <ehird95> Any process can do what the fuck it wants.
21:16:52 <ehird95> That's how loadlin works; it's just an ordinary process that goes "byebye, Windows".
21:17:20 <AnMaster> ehird95, I forgot how it differed
21:17:31 <ehird95> I don't recall either, I just recall it's freaky.
21:17:31 <AnMaster> return value in register or something?
21:17:54 <ehird95> Also, second project queued up: Windows 9x WebKit browser that doesn't suck.
21:17:58 <ehird95> I have had it with these browsers!
21:18:10 <ehird95> Can barely... bare... them.
21:18:11 <AnMaster> "The stdcall[1] calling convention is a variation on the pascal calling convention in which parameters are passed on the stack, pushed right-to-left. Registers EAX, ECX, and EDX are designated for use within the function. Return values are stored in the EAX register. The callee is responsible for cleanup of the stack."
21:18:28 <ehird95> Yeah, but AnMaster, they do varargs stdcall.
21:18:34 <ehird95> The Win32API actually has that.
21:18:46 <ehird95> It's some crazy horrifying trick.
21:18:53 <AnMaster> right to left. No it shouldn't be an issue
21:19:05 <ehird95> Where's the first argument, though?
21:19:13 <ehird95> Ask ais523; he's more acquainted with the unmentionable horror.
21:19:39 <ais523> I don't know the details of Windows calling conventions
21:19:49 <ais523> except that they make your programs nonportable by forcing you to specify them all the time
21:19:55 <ais523> with keywords non-Windows compilers don't accept
21:20:53 <ehird95> Pretty sure if you're using the Windows API you're non-portable anyway.
21:20:54 <AnMaster> ais523, doesn't the headers specify them already? and for exported API just do: #define PLATFORM_EXPORT_FUNC to the __dllspec(whatever) stuff and so on
21:21:10 <ehird95> Okay, time to dive in to the WinMain().
21:21:25 <ais523> AnMaster: things like callbacks you have to define yourself
21:21:27 <ehird95> Fitts, version 1: a graphical Win32 program that exits immediately after it starts. Go.
21:21:34 <ais523> and with particular keyboard conventions
21:22:17 <AnMaster> ais523, btw cfunge doesn't use standard calling convention on x86 either. After profiling I found that using the gcc __attribute__ to use register passing saved *quite* a bit on 32-bit x86
21:22:32 <ehird95> Hmm, a Windows 9x-native WebKit browser might be quite... interesting; seeing as I'm pretty sure on Windows your toolkit options are GTK and Qt.
21:22:34 <AnMaster> only applies to internal functions of course
21:22:50 <ehird95> (Chrome uses their own port of WebKit to Windows, but Chrome is XP/Vista/7 only, so.)
21:22:57 <ais523> AnMaster: cfunge isn't meant to be portable C when the extreme-x86 options are turned on
21:23:04 <ais523> and I'm glad you're doing it as a portable/nonportable polyglot
21:23:28 <ehird95> So I'm pretty sure I'd have to rewrite every single widget call in WebKit to use Win32.
21:23:32 <AnMaster> ais523, actually not an option. It is always used if 1) GCC is detected 2) 32-bit x86 is
21:23:52 <AnMaster> ehird95, GTK for windows? Or is that not 9x either?
21:24:13 <ehird95> AnMaster: Well, there's Qt for Windows too, but they're both Not Actually Native(TM).
21:24:24 <ehird95> Both use the actual widgets, iirc, but the total construction is off.
21:24:24 <AnMaster> ehird95, QT on windows looks good though
21:24:43 <AnMaster> ehird95, "for extended usage" I mean
21:24:47 <ehird95> I can guarantee you there are many subtle warts vs the platform, just like in OS X.
21:25:18 <AnMaster> ehird95, nothing I noticed. But I'm quite happy with gimp on OS X apart from the whole "X11 starting" bit
21:25:29 <AnMaster> and I'm fine with mixed KDE and GTK too
21:25:55 <ehird95> You realise there's a Quartz port of GTK and one that uses Cocoa widgets too?
21:25:59 <AnMaster> lets see my desktop.... KDE3... GTK apps not set to KDE like theme but just old style very rectangular theme
21:26:18 <ehird95> But seriously, if you think GIMP fits in quite well with OS X, I'm very justified in ignoring ever opinion on desktop environment integration from you...
21:26:24 <AnMaster> <ehird95> You realise there's a Quartz port of GTK and one that uses Cocoa widgets too? <-- yes, but not when I last used OS X
21:26:28 <ehird95> because it simply doesn't integrate one bit; it's the polar opposite
21:26:36 <AnMaster> <ehird95> But seriously, if you think GIMP fits in quite well with OS X, I'm very justified in ignoring ever opinion on desktop environment integration from you... <-- no I didn't say it fits well
21:27:13 <AnMaster> I just said: I have no problems with it not fitting well
21:27:13 <AnMaster> but it just doesn't bother me much
21:27:20 <AnMaster> more than gimp does *anywhere* I mean
21:27:22 <ehird95> int WINAPI WinMain(HINSTANCE hInstance, HINSTANCE hPrevInstance, LPSTR lpCmdLine, int nCmdShow)
21:27:28 <ehird95> Jesus lord mother of fucking goddamn shitting christ.
21:27:38 <AnMaster> ehird95, where is the pointer to the struct
21:27:41 <ehird95> Holy cow, that's some function prototype for a goddamn main function.
21:27:41 <AnMaster> and what is the instance stuff
21:27:52 <ehird95> Instance is the application instance; i.e. your process, sorta.
21:28:06 <ehird95> lpCmdLine is your command line arguments, except they all come as one string.
21:28:10 <ehird95> nCmdShow is I have no fucking idea.
21:28:15 <ehird95> WINAPI expands to stdcall.
21:28:20 <AnMaster> ehird95, int main(void), int main(argc, argv), int main(argc, argv, envp) are the ones I know of on POSIX
21:28:28 <AnMaster> <ehird95> hPrevInstance is NULL. <-- wait what?
21:28:35 <ehird95> AnMaster: Backwards compatibility.
21:28:48 <ehird95> This is why back compat evil. :)
21:29:01 <AnMaster> ehird95, how comes POSIX doesn't have so many visible backward compat warts
21:29:27 <ehird95> Because POSIX is a million times less popular.
21:29:47 <ehird95> And basically no consumers use it, thus all the apps are mainly business, backend stuff, etc.
21:29:51 <ehird95> Which tends to be less shit.
21:31:42 * ehird95 adds a search box to SeaMonkey with MonkeyMenu. Yaaaay.
21:31:44 <pikhq> Less people do really truly awful things to POSIX. And people are much less bitchy when stuff breaks on POSIX systems.
21:32:00 <pikhq> That's... About it.
21:32:36 <AnMaster> wikipedia on AMD64 calling convention: "The calling convention of the AMD64 application binary interface is followed on Linux and other non-Microsoft operating systems. The registers RDI, RSI, RDX, RCX, R8 and R9 are used for integer and pointer arguments while XMM0, XMM1, XMM2, XMM3, XMM4, XMM5, XMM6 and XMM7 are used for floating point arguments. As in the Microsoft x64 calling convention, additiona
21:32:36 <AnMaster> l arguments are pushed onto the stack and the return value is stored in RAX."
21:32:47 <AnMaster> would help if it was actually accurate
21:33:18 <AnMaster> basically. Small structs are also passed in registers
21:36:42 <ehird95> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_style worst wp article ever
21:37:39 <ehird95> someone got into the edit page and thought "I'm going to explain EVERY NUANCE to everyone who reads this article! They'll be so pleased that I've accurately documented the facts and subtleties of every single facet of programming style. Hey, what does it matter if half of them only apply to curly brace languages? What does it matter if I should be describing the basic elements because it's an encyclopedia? Whoopdihey!"
21:42:39 <ehird95> The Wacom IDE would suck less if it didn't have multiple windows inside windows all over the place.
21:42:51 <AnMaster> what do you think of the term "an eightbyte"?
21:43:09 <AnMaster> Within this specification, the term byte refers to a 8-bit object, the term twobyte
21:43:09 <AnMaster> refers to a 16-bit object, the term fourbyte refers to a 32-bit object, the term
21:43:09 <AnMaster> eightbyte refers to a 64-bit object, and the term sixteenbyte refers to a 128-bit
21:43:36 <AnMaster> (the 1 there is a footnote btw)
21:43:46 <ehird95> Hey, my first Win32 program just executed.
21:43:50 <ehird95> I feel my soul dripping away.
21:43:59 <ehird95> I executed a nop a few times before that.
21:44:08 * ais523 looks at http://www.html-protector.com/encrypt/sample.html
21:44:12 <ehird95> MessageBox(NULL, "Hello, world!", "Hello", MB_OK);
21:44:27 <ais523> it's much worse if you want to actually open a window
21:44:38 <ais523> rather than just sit in the background without an associated window
21:44:40 <AnMaster> <ehird95> The Wacom IDE would suck less if it didn't have multiple windows inside windows all over the place. <-- why are you using that one?
21:44:40 <ehird95> Please, let the tutorial break the horror into me.
21:45:22 <AnMaster> ais523, "To display this page you need a browser with JavaScript support."?
21:45:23 <ehird95> AnMaster: Because I'm using Open Watcom, and it looks like it was designed for Windows 3.1. Subwindows up the wazoo, button-style toolbar icons, small (like in Mosaic), the editor/debugger/etc are all different programs, so you have to switch to another big-window-with-subwindows to do things like make and run.
21:45:30 <ehird95> Also, all the icons are 16x16, 16-color affairs.
21:45:39 <ais523> AnMaster: look at the source
21:45:51 <ehird95> And the editor's status line actually uses black Win 3.1-font (dunno what it's called) upon dark teal.
21:46:10 <ais523> basically, they have a bunch of JS on the page that they claim will make it impossible to open the page without a password, or in a "less-restricted" browser like Mozilla
21:46:19 <ais523> and even people who can open the page can't see its HTML, or even retrieve it from cache
21:46:20 <ehird95> However, it's convenient; it autoindents, syntax highlights and it also handles writing a build script for me.
21:46:27 <ais523> it's like one of those right-click-block scripts on steroids
21:46:31 <AnMaster> ais523, seems like a trivial to break encryption?
21:46:40 <ehird95> Which is good, because these are the commands it executes:
21:46:44 <ais523> so incredibly trivial that I thought people here would be amused by it
21:46:57 <AnMaster> ais523, it's just url encoding right?
21:47:06 <ais523> <META name="description" content="Protect html source. Protect your Web site with HTML Protector. Protect your html from source code thiefs! Password protect html source code on your website.">
21:47:19 <AnMaster> eval(unescape('%68%70%5F%6F%6B%3D%74%72%75%65%3B%66%75%6E%63%74%69%6F%6E%20%68%70%5F%64%30%30%28%73%29%7B%69%66%28%21%68%70%5F%6F%6B%29%72%65%74%75%72%6E%3B%64%6F%63%75%6D%65%6E%74%2E%77%72%69%74%65%28%73%29%7D'))
21:47:35 <AnMaster> maybe it defines the hp_d00 function
21:47:36 <ais523> eval(unescape('hp_ok=true;function hp_d00(s){if(!hp_ok)return;document.write(s)}'))
21:47:44 <ais523> I ran the source of the page through LeetKey
21:47:49 <ais523> which is an underestimated Firefox plugin
21:48:09 <ais523> it was originally designed to parse 1337-speak into something more readable
21:48:15 <ehird95> AnMaster: The reason I'm using the Open Watcom IDE is because it writes the Makefile (or equivalent) to run these commands without me getting near anything nearly as horrifying:
21:48:16 <ehird95> wmake -f C:\Code\Fitts\Fitts.mk -h -e C:\Code\Fitts\Fitts.exe
21:48:16 <ehird95> wcc386 Fitts.c -i="C:\WATCOM/h;C:\WATCOM/h/nt" -w4 -e25 -zq -od -d2 -6r -bt=nt -fo=.obj -mf
21:48:16 <ehird95> wlink name Fitts d all SYS nt_win op m op maxe=25 op q op symf @Fitts.lk1
21:48:20 <ais523> but a lot more filters got added to it over time
21:48:33 <ehird95> That's to compile one trivial C file into a Win32 graphical executable with Open Wacom.
21:48:36 <ais523> so it does things like ROT13ing and URLencode/decoding etc
21:48:40 <AnMaster> ehird95, why not use MSVC or something?
21:48:51 <ehird95> AnMaster: 1. Windows 95 2. $$$
21:48:55 <ais523> also, "source code thiefs"?
21:49:08 <ehird95> ais523: it means people who INFRINGE THE COPYRIGHT of your code!
21:49:10 <AnMaster> ehird95, MSDNAA doesn't seem to have such old MSVC
21:49:10 <ais523> for one, that should be "thieves", for two, I doubt they really exist in large numbers
21:49:25 <AnMaster> ehird95, oh I think I may have an old old copy of MSVC++ 6.0 or something
21:49:29 <ais523> I keep mentally muddling MSDNAA with MPAA and RIAA
21:49:31 <ehird95> speaking of "thieves", their site pops up a fake dialog using OS X Tiger's window widgets
21:49:33 <ais523> they shouldn't have picked a similar naming scheme
21:49:38 <ehird95> isn't that, you know, just as illegal?
21:50:05 <ehird95> AnMaster: was that an offer? I'm not exactly sure MSVC++ will be less horrific than this, but...
21:50:08 <ais523> "Retrieve this page from your cache... It %65xpires IMMEDIATELY!"
21:50:23 <ais523> I wonder why the URLdecode failed there? maybe it was double-encoded in the original...
21:50:33 <AnMaster> ehird95, it is an entire cd. if I can find it. Slow uplink. So probably not an offer as such
21:50:48 <ais523> also, I'm surprised that they thought of disabling cache (which means your own server gets hammered), but not of people just using view source and URL-decoding it
21:50:50 <AnMaster> plus it would be... you know. ileegal?
21:50:51 <ehird95> AnMaster: Also, the commands for MSVC++ are probably as horrific.
21:51:05 <ais523> also, first time I've seen a page deliberately coded to /not/ work in Firefox
21:51:06 <AnMaster> it sucks at standard compliance
21:51:16 <ehird95> AnMaster: actually downloading copyrighted material is legal in sweden iirc
21:51:24 <AnMaster> ehird95, yeah, it is bleeding edge research I know
21:51:36 <AnMaster> ehird95, um uploading is, But not downloading
21:51:47 <ehird95> AnMaster: that's bizarrely backwards
21:51:54 <AnMaster> ehird95, oh and I think using it is
21:52:00 <ehird95> why is providing copyrighted material legal, but downloading it isn't?
21:52:17 <AnMaster> ehird95, yep. It's like "selling sex isn't forbidden, buying sex is"
21:52:35 <ehird95> copyrighted content: substitute for sex!
21:53:47 <ehird95> http://weichhold.com/wp-content/gallery/misc/vc6_0.png ;; MSVC++ 6 seems to be a little prettier and less cluttered and has the advantage of being in one window
21:53:56 <ehird95> otoh, I don't need any of that file browser stuff since this thing is one file
21:54:04 <ehird95> and pirating it would probably take decades
21:54:05 <AnMaster> ais523, how on earth would that site prevent cache and such even on MSIE?
21:54:11 <ehird95> plus, eh, why not support FOSS :P
21:54:21 <ais523> I think there's anti-cache stuff in the headers
21:54:21 <AnMaster> ehird95, is that open watcom FOSS?
21:54:21 <ehird95> AnMaster: set it to be outdated immediately
21:54:34 <ehird95> AnMaster: it's the open-sourced continuation of the famous Watcom compiler
21:54:59 <ehird95> Doom, Descent, Magic Carpet, System Shock, Fast Attack, Atomic Bomberman, and Duke Nukem 3D are among well known games that were compiled with Watcom C.[1]
21:55:07 <ehird95> doubt they used the ide though :)
21:57:41 <fizzie> There's the text-based Watcom IDE too; that's the only one I've used.
21:58:53 <ehird95> you can't really feel the 3.1ness without using it, oh well
21:59:08 <ehird95> at least the window decorations and task bar should make you feel the windows 95ness :)
21:59:27 <AnMaster> ehird95, I only used windows 3.1 once. For a few minutes.
21:59:35 <AnMaster> So I couldn't ever feel windows3.1-ness
21:59:49 <ehird95> http://imgur.com/v729P.png (the commands at the end of the source file are just me typing out the build log)
22:00:20 <AnMaster> ehird95, the background picture doesn't look windows-95-ish
22:00:33 <ehird95> yeah, that's because i set it myself
22:00:57 <AnMaster> ehird95, doesn't fit with the environment at ALL
22:01:12 <AnMaster> ehird95, also it feels 3.1ish. The icons do that is
22:01:19 <ehird95> The window decorations are pretty much invisible to me after using them for a while, so everything else is fitting in with the background.
22:01:32 <ehird95> Green is underrepresented in 95, anyway.
22:01:44 <AnMaster> ehird95, why do you need green at all? :/
22:02:47 <ais523> yay, /me gets nostalgia for 16-bit programs on win95
22:02:57 <ais523> also, win95 font rendering
22:03:03 <ais523> ugly but very easy to make out the individual characters
22:03:09 <ais523> so although it was slow to read, it was pretty accurate
22:03:29 <ehird95> Eh, even XP ships with similar font rendering by default.
22:03:36 <ehird95> At larger sizes it antialiases them, though.
22:03:37 <ehird95> But otherwise it's identical.
22:04:17 <ehird95> The full background: http://imgur.com/vVBHr.png I scaled 'n cropped it from a 1680x1050 wallpaper.
22:04:30 <ais523> ehird95: XP is more likely to use truetype fonts than raster ones, though
22:04:33 <ehird95> Technically it's a BMP on disk for Windows, but that'd just be too slow to upload and download.
22:04:44 <ais523> and ouch, I remember BMP
22:04:55 <ais523> left-to-right, bottom-to-top, uncompressed, and with a weird header format
22:05:00 <ehird95> Bleh, I need a Show Desktop.
22:05:08 <ehird95> Maybe I'll code one and add it to the top of my start menu.
22:05:18 <ais523> I can't remember if that worked as far back as win95
22:05:28 <ehird95> Start, pause, d pops up the Documents menu.
22:05:45 <ehird95> Start+R and Start, pause, R do the same thing, though.
22:05:55 <ais523> also, the top of the start menu is rather a bad place to Fitt at
22:06:08 <AnMaster> <ais523> I can't remember if that worked as far back as win95 <-- the area where it an IE was in was added in 98 iirc
22:06:13 <ehird95> yes, but the target is big vs the system tray or a Programs menu item
22:06:20 <ehird95> and I don't need to access it all that often
22:06:33 <ais523> gah, why can't you mix and match the best bits of different Windows versions?
22:06:41 * ais523 is still nostalgic for Program Manager
22:06:52 <ehird95> ais523: Program Manager works on 95.
22:07:08 <ehird95> It's kind of weird, because right clicks and such do nothing.
22:07:11 <ais523> but it doesn't load on boot
22:07:18 <ehird95> Anyway, you so can mix and match the best bits of different Windows versions.
22:07:27 <ais523> actually, did the right mouse button do anything in win3.1?
22:07:32 <ais523> except during the mouse tutorial/
22:07:36 <ehird95> For instance, NT 4.0 is a rock solid OS with 95's UI, except the UI is buggy.
22:07:47 <AnMaster> <ehird95> It's kind of weird, because right clicks and such do nothing. <-- huh??
22:07:53 <fizzie> I seem to remember it was win-M in 95.
22:07:56 <ehird95> I guess you could replace a good chunk of the UI straight from 95, thus getting 95-minus-meddling-plus-stability-and-sanity.
22:07:57 <fizzie> For "minimize all windows".
22:08:07 <AnMaster> <ais523> except during the mouse tutorial/ <-- what tutorial?
22:08:08 <ais523> AnMaster: Program Manager doesn't react to right-clicks
22:08:16 <ais523> AnMaster: Windows 3.1 had a mouse tutorial
22:08:24 <ais523> because mice were new, and you didn't know how to use them
22:08:35 <fizzie> AnMaster: I think you were here when we linked to the youtube clip containing the mouse tutorial.
22:08:41 <ehird95> ais523: anyway, let's think... NT 4.0 + 95 replacement GUI parts... well, that should be able to run 2000/XP programs without too much hacking
22:08:42 <AnMaster> ais523, what was it like though?
22:08:51 <ehird95> No games, though; it has anemic DirectX support.
22:08:56 <AnMaster> I would have to grep logs on cs
22:08:56 <ais523> AnMaster: to start with, you had to hover some polygons with numbers in
22:09:05 <ais523> then double-click, and drag, etc
22:09:13 <ais523> and near the end there was a dialog box with lots of useless controls
22:09:25 <AnMaster> ais523, how were you supposed to open this tutorial to begin with? :D
22:09:37 <ehird95> ais523: so, a good subset of 95+2000 apps if you're willing to do hackery, a rock solid kernel, 95's UI (plus any additions you want as long as they play fine with NT)...
22:09:45 <ehird95> seems like you can basically mix and match windows versions.
22:09:45 <fizzie> AnMaster: <fizzie> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJhG-uds0-o has the win3.1 mouse tutorial; I remember that; it's the awesome, it's like this skill test "click here" "click there" "wow!"
22:09:55 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't know, for all I know it was shown on first boot
22:10:02 <ehird95> Hello, you either have JavaScript turned off or an old version of Adobe's Flash Player. Get the latest Flash player.
22:10:10 <AnMaster> I actually can't remember a computer without a mouse
22:10:18 <AnMaster> this is due to growing up in a mac family
22:10:28 <AnMaster> even that old apple classic had a mouse
22:10:34 <ais523> my first computer was a BBC Micro B, which didn't have a mouse
22:10:45 <ehird95> Let's see if Flash 10 wants to install on Windows 95, attempt two???
22:10:45 <ais523> although it had a floppy disk drive, rather than the more usual tape
22:10:47 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but you are old ;P
22:10:55 <ehird95> ais523: basically as old as the dinosaurs!
22:11:06 <ais523> if I were old, it would have been punched cards or paper tape
22:11:18 <fizzie> Or paper wires, or punched wires.
22:11:23 * AnMaster wonders if that idioms exists in English
22:11:37 <AnMaster> for someone young and inexperienced
22:11:54 <AnMaster> ah so not just a Swedish idiom then
22:12:13 <ehird95> Well, Flash 9 is the latest for 98/ME; let's hope it'll pretend I'm 95.
22:12:27 <fizzie> It exists also in Finnish, except it's just "märkäkorva", lit. translated as "wet-ear".
22:12:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah but Finnish is strange :P
22:12:52 <ehird95> Unsupported operating system nuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
22:12:53 <AnMaster> oerjan, do you remember punch cards?
22:13:17 <ehird95> flash 9, which is one behind the latest version
22:13:21 <ehird95> we'll see if flash 9 does 95.
22:13:25 <ehird95> we'll see if flash 8 does 95.
22:13:30 <ehird95> but I think youtube uses flash 9 these days...
22:13:40 <ehird95> THOSE 98 USERS GET ALL THE CHICKS^WYOUTUBE
22:14:03 <fizzie> ehird95: In a sensible operating system like DOS, you'd have the built-in "setver" command to change the version information reported to programs, and so would be able to fake it.
22:14:29 <ehird95> fizzie: I'd bet about 30% on being able to use setver with Windows.
22:14:45 <ehird95> sweet, setver is for every executable
22:15:09 <fizzie> It'll still only affect the MS-DOS version number, is my guess.
22:15:42 <fizzie> There's a different numbering there, after all.
22:16:00 <fizzie> Since it was already at dos 7 in win95.
22:16:29 <ehird95> i read something about seamonkey
22:16:36 <ehird95> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
22:16:47 <ehird95> windows. cursor. tutorial CLICK
22:17:05 <ehird95> Hello, you either have JavaScript turned off or an old version of Adobe's Flash Player. Get the latest Flash player.
22:17:44 <ehird95> "After installing the plugin, click here." Big box.
22:18:37 <AnMaster> <fizzie> ehird95: In a sensible operating system like DOS, you'd have the built-in "setver" command to change the version information reported to programs, and so would be able to fake it. <-- sensible?
22:19:04 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:19:11 <ehird95> why is there no flash player 8 uninstaller.
22:19:38 <ehird95> well it wasn't wrapped ina proper installer
22:19:42 <ehird95> i guess oldversion are peddling in
22:19:53 <ehird95> that are not the full... bodied... legitimacy of a full installer.
22:20:06 <AnMaster> No definitions were found for peddlable.
22:20:22 <ehird95> and thusly, it may be so that lacking their surrounding installer framework, instead being a lowly detect-browser-and-copy
22:20:35 <ehird95> they neglected to set up such uninstallable facilities, for my enjoyment, esquire, poppycock, cheesecake.
22:20:36 <AnMaster> Did you mean: define:peddleable No definitions were found for peddleable.
22:20:47 <AnMaster> ehird95, so what did that word mean?
22:20:58 <fizzie> Able to be peddled, I would guess, even without an official definition.
22:21:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is "peddled" then
22:21:25 <AnMaster> "A peddler, in British English pedlar, also known as a canvasser, cheapjack, monger, or solicitor (with negative connotations since the 16th ..."
22:21:49 <AnMaster> "solicitor"? some sort of lawyer?
22:22:03 <fizzie> "S: (v) peddle, monger, huckster, hawk, vend, pitch (sell or offer for sale from place to place)"
22:22:54 <fizzie> I guess they're not "selling" in a strictly literal sense, but anyway.
22:23:05 <ehird95> var swfUrl = canPlayV9Swf()
22:23:16 <ehird95> youtube on windows 95 = impossible
22:23:38 <fizzie> The internets have some uses of "peddlable" in the "can be done with a pedal" sense too, but I doubt that's it.
22:24:25 <ehird95> even flash 8 doesn't work on 95
22:24:34 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Page closed").
22:25:06 <ais523> thought: does Wine run on Windows 95?
22:25:14 <ais523> you could use it to run more recent Windows programs on older versions
22:25:59 -!- jix has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
22:25:59 -!- Slereah_ has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
22:25:59 -!- rodgort has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
22:25:59 -!- ais523 has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
22:25:59 -!- pikhq has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
22:26:00 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
22:26:00 -!- Leonidas has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
22:26:01 -!- Warrigal has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
22:26:02 -!- mtve has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
22:26:05 -!- mtve has joined.
22:26:13 <Sgeo> Why would WINE run on Windows?
22:26:18 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
22:26:18 -!- jix has joined.
22:26:18 -!- ais523 has joined.
22:26:18 -!- rodgort has joined.
22:26:18 -!- Leonidas has joined.
22:26:18 -!- pikhq has joined.
22:26:18 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
22:26:18 -!- Warrigal has joined.
22:26:24 <fizzie> Does Wine run on Windows at all?
22:26:54 <ehird95> And Cygwin 1.5 supports 95.
22:27:00 <ais523> heh, Wine compiles under Cygwin but doesn't run there?
22:27:01 <fizzie> Sgeo: For the lulz, I guess.
22:27:10 <ehird95> wine and cygwin both run under each other
22:27:12 <Sgeo> PCLinuxOS looks very attractive
22:27:16 <ais523> also, we seem to be on the small side ofa netsplit
22:27:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, you could use colinux first
22:27:27 <pikhq> Actually, it's just that Cygwin no longer runs on Windows 95.
22:27:31 <ehird95> first, it's based on mandriva, which is basically the archetypical bad linux distro
22:27:41 <ehird95> second, it's less popular than mandriva so doesn't even have the community
22:27:41 <AnMaster> not sure about newer windows versions
22:27:42 <pikhq> Alternately: you could maybe just use the Wine DLLs on Win 95.
22:27:42 <Sgeo> PCLinuxOS : Linux :: Windows Vista : Windows ?
22:27:50 <ehird95> third, it offers nothing even over mandriva
22:27:58 <ehird95> in conclusion, it's the only possible way to make mandriva worse :P
22:28:14 <ais523> some programs run better under Wine then under native Windows
22:28:29 <Sgeo> Can I get PCLinuxOS styles for Ubuntu?
22:28:36 <ehird95> Sgeo: they're just kde styles.
22:28:48 <ais523> I have KDE on this Ubuntu system
22:28:53 <Sgeo> When KDE works well on Ubuntu, I'll try it
22:28:59 <ehird95> you have kubuntu, presumably, ais523
22:29:02 <Sgeo> Last time I tried, things were crashtastic
22:29:16 <ais523> I have most of its dependencies, but not the package itself
22:29:18 <ehird95> well, the packages come from kubuntu, anyway
22:29:30 <ehird95> so i don't think that system running that kde is really not-kubuntu
22:29:39 <ais523> wow, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Malbolge_Unshackled is linked from Wikipedia
22:29:47 <Sgeo> What's wrong with Mandriva ?
22:29:55 <ais523> oerjan: looks like your creation is getting attention
22:30:08 <ehird95> Sgeo: firstly, it's over-commercialised
22:30:11 <AnMaster> <ais523> also, we seem to be on the small side ofa netsplit
22:30:22 <ehird95> and thus mostly based around their company and the branding mandriva
22:30:33 -!- Guest19311 has changed nick to Cerise.
22:30:37 <ehird95> nobody who knows linux uses mandriva
22:30:40 <ais523> for a bit it was just me and pikhq
22:30:42 <Sgeo> But PCLinuxOS presumably doesn't inherit commercialization from Mandriva
22:30:46 <ehird95> thirdly, its desktop is basically juts kde 4
22:30:51 <AnMaster> ais523, when you said that you had been back for over a minute
22:30:52 <ehird95> it's just yet another crappy distro
22:31:03 <ais523> AnMaster: coming back from the netsplit made me lag
22:31:07 <ehird95> Sgeo: considering pclinuxos = mandriva with a different logo, sure it does.
22:31:13 <ais523> probably because I was in #nethack at the time and there were hundreds of join messages to send
22:31:32 <ehird95> the question isn't what's wrong with mandriva although it can certainly be answered, the question is what on earth does it have over ubuntu?
22:31:34 <fizzie> According to the official Wiki, it doesn't work for many values of "work": http://wiki.winehq.org/WineOnWindows
22:31:36 <AnMaster> well I know how it is after a netsplit
22:31:46 <Sgeo> ehird95, looking sexy out of the box?
22:31:46 <AnMaster> often you end up splitting due to full queues
22:31:50 <ehird95> ubuntu has a huge, huge, HUGE community, is making advances in usability, ...
22:32:11 <ehird95> Sgeo: I guess you just sit at your computer drooling all day instead of using it, but FWIW 9.10's default theme is appealing.
22:32:32 <ehird95> Ooh, Mandriva doesn't even use yum.
22:33:06 <Sgeo> ehird95, that made as much sense to me as "Debian doesn't even use rpm"
22:33:23 <ehird95> ais523: their very own wrapper over rpm
22:33:24 <Sgeo> Hm, I guess yum is a thingy that works over rpm? That makes more sense
22:33:26 <AnMaster> <fizzie> According to the official Wiki, it doesn't work for many values of "work": http://wiki.winehq.org/WineOnWindows <-- why are some of the UI elements on there translated to Swedish for me???
22:33:37 <ehird95> AnMaster: moinmoin does that.
22:33:53 <ehird95> (moinmoin, n. means "shitty wiki software" in hawaiian)
22:34:08 <ehird95> from the word "moin", "shitty", and the word "moin", "wiki software".
22:34:19 <AnMaster> "Sök" and "Innehåll" oh and a third one: "senast redigerad
22:35:51 <oerjan> <AnMaster> oerjan, do you remember punch cards? <-- i vaguely recall there may have been some in the telecom building where my dad worked/works, back in the late 70s/early 80s.
22:36:02 <ehird95> "I would not call Clue (as well as Self BCT) a language, rather a machine with a complex behavior." --Oleg on a language just as valid as BCT
22:36:14 <ehird95> Oleg should really shut up when he doesn't know what he's talking about...
22:37:26 <AnMaster> who is this "oleg"? Sure I seen the name elsewhere
22:37:43 <ehird95> oleg 1 is on the esolang wiki
22:37:54 <AnMaster> oleg being an anagram for lego?
22:38:00 <ehird95> oleg 2 is the uber-master-god of type systems, scheme, haskell and ocaml and he is smarter than you, full stop
22:38:12 <ehird95> oleg 2 is of http://okmij.org/ftp/
22:38:29 <AnMaster> ehird95, and which of these ie the oleg that should shut up?
22:39:41 <AnMaster> whoa this is some good music that was added to wesnoth since last I checked (about a month or two ago=
22:39:43 <pikhq> Oleg 2's code makes my head hurt
22:40:06 <ehird95> oleg should change his name to that, Oleg 2
22:40:18 <Sgeo> Someone gave me a command to download the Wesnoth music some time ago, but I forgot it :(
22:40:53 <AnMaster> Sgeo, svn co http://svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music
22:41:15 * AnMaster is listening to "northern_mountains.ogg" atm
22:41:32 <AnMaster> probably ehird95 wouldn't like it
22:41:45 <Sgeo> I have some Windows SVN thingy installed, so I'll just use that
22:42:35 <AnMaster> Sgeo, it may take some time. the whole checkout dir is 245 MB. So half of that size need to be download (yeah svn doesn't even store the pristine copies compressed or anything...)
22:42:38 <Sgeo> Why is this thing telling me 0 Bytes/sec
22:43:19 <Sgeo> How often do they add music?
22:43:34 <ehird95> ais523: does enigma work in 9x?
22:43:37 <AnMaster> Sgeo, varies. sometimes a few months, sometimes three in a single week
22:44:05 <ais523> "windows 95 and later", according to the website
22:44:09 <AnMaster> Sgeo, anyway, it grows overall slowly
22:44:20 <ais523> try http://download.berlios.de/enigma-game/Enigma-1.01.exe
22:44:25 <ehird95> "The operating system I currently use on my primary computer is Windows 95 OSR2. Furthermore, not only do I use Windows 95 extensively, but I prefer it to Windows 98, ME, 2000, XP, and Vista."
22:44:31 <ehird95> So that makes 2 to 4 of them.
22:44:51 <Sgeo> How can Win98 be better than Win95?
22:44:56 <ais523> well, that's where it's hosted, do you want me to magic it somewhere else?
22:44:57 <Sgeo> erm, other way
22:45:05 <ehird95> Sgeo: The same way 98 can be better than ME.
22:45:06 <Sgeo> How can 95 be better than 98 in anyone's eyes?
22:45:13 <ais523> the only good thing about Windows 98 compared to 95 is USB support
22:45:15 <ais523> although, that is a big one
22:45:19 <ehird95> 98 replaced the beautiful, usable 95 Explorer with 98's bloated shitfest IEcrap explorer
22:45:26 <ehird95> added a bunch of unstable IE ""integration""
22:45:30 <AnMaster> ais523, did windows95 even support usb at all?
22:45:35 <ehird95> you can get usb support for win95
22:45:40 <ehird95> just a simple double-click away
22:45:43 <ais523> ehird95: ah, I didn't know that
22:45:47 <ais523> it certainly wasn't out-of-the-box
22:45:50 <ehird95> there are tons of drivers, yeah
22:46:02 <ehird95> anyway, AnMaster: them = people who use Windows 95 as a main OS and aren't hermits
22:46:05 <AnMaster> ehird95, doubt it would be very well integrated?
22:46:07 <pikhq> It was in Win 95B.
22:46:13 <ehird95> AnMaster: it's integrated just fine
22:46:20 <AnMaster> as in, able to handle all device classes and such
22:46:22 <ehird95> pikhq: 95B is with the stupid IE Explorer-replacement iirc
22:46:27 * Sgeo wonders if anyone still uses Win3.1 as a primary OS
22:46:52 <ehird95> OSR 2.5 = IE explorer = not really 95 any more
22:46:57 <ehird95> ais523: that berlios isn't loading
22:47:18 <AnMaster> <ehird95> ais523: that berlios isn't loading <-- guess why I said "eww" about berlios?
22:47:20 <ais523> try navigating from the directory?
22:47:23 <AnMaster> supertux used to be hosted there
22:47:50 <ehird95> supertux is a fairly sundry mario clone
22:47:56 <ehird95> it's nice if you like mario clones.
22:48:01 <AnMaster> ais523, hm? try it yourself. Not really working active on it any more
22:48:09 <ais523> <weenak> I'm sorry but the printf function doesn't except YouTube videos as input.
22:48:22 <ehird95> The nice thing about Windows 95 is that you can run it wonderfully without any IE at all
22:48:25 <ais523> just picking a random comment out of context
22:48:36 <ehird95> You can't use .chms, sure, but how many are there in 95? Barely any. You can't use Outlook, thank god.
22:48:47 <ehird95> But everything else just works, including modern Word versions.
22:48:51 <fizzie> There were some custom very messy USB drivers in addition to the OSR 2 USB support. And I think that didn't include mass storage support by default, you had to use a third-party generic-enough driver for that. Could be wrong, though.
22:49:03 <Sgeo> ehird95, what about DS?
22:49:27 <ehird95> Sgeo: Docking station? It requires IE, I believe, although the DLLs I might still have from that stupid IE 4 installation I tried might still be there.
22:49:29 <fungot> ais523: despite sleeping in to 5:16.
22:49:49 <Sgeo> ehird95, you need another link to DS?
22:49:58 <ais523> ugh, berlios indeed seems to be down atm
22:50:08 <ehird95> If it does work, then it's just a matter of putting the relevant IE 4 DLL next to DS (so you don't have IE 4 crap in your system).
22:50:15 <Sgeo> Remind me to slap everyone who works for Wikia
22:50:28 <Sgeo> http://www.gamewaredevelopment.co.uk/ds/ds_more.php?id=552_0_16_0_C
22:50:30 <ehird95> slap everyone who works for wikia
22:51:05 <ehird95> seamonkey illegal operation shutdown awesome!
22:51:29 <ais523> what's #esoteric's opinion on Wikia, by the way
22:51:34 <ais523> I need to know whether to like it or hate it
22:51:37 <AnMaster> <ais523> <weenak> I'm sorry but the printf function doesn't except YouTube videos as input. <-- context please
22:52:03 <ais523> AnMaster: someone making the hello world a link to a youtube video when publishing a hello world on a website
22:52:13 <ehird95> AnMaster: Wikia are, simply, evil
22:52:17 <Sgeo> ais523, the Creatures wiki's opinion is hate it. They added junk to outgoing links, forcing most wikis to use a certain ad-filled theme
22:52:40 <ais523> junk to outgoing links?
22:52:47 <Sgeo> And took the creatureswiki.com domain name for themselves
22:52:54 <AnMaster> <ais523> ugh, berlios indeed seems to be down atm <-- as usual
22:53:01 <ehird95> ais523: Wikia, for instance, fragment communities that want to split off because of their insistence on having about 5 ads per page (I'm not exaggerating) and forcing you to use the new, unusable Monaco theme. They say they want to split off, Wikia say: "You have fun. We won't have any links to you and we'll keep the wikia going."
22:53:13 <ehird95> ais523: And, that whole thing with the snatching creatureswiki.com and holding it from them.
22:53:15 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah http://monitor.berlios.de/berlios-status/
22:53:20 <Sgeo> ais523, you know how some websites have a redirect thing? They do that, so they can display ads when someone goes to an outbound link
22:53:23 <ais523> ehird95: I know that Wikia is one of the few sites that I cannot cope with visiting with Epiphany
22:53:37 <ais523> to bear to look at the thing
22:53:38 <ehird95> Wikia are one of the shittiest companies in existence; they have no empathy.
22:53:42 <ais523> the ads are really obnoxious
22:53:43 <AnMaster> with berlios you can at least know that there are stuff that is brken
22:53:50 <ehird95> At least they could be opaque about their evil-for-profit like Microsot.
22:54:09 <ehird95> AnMaster: http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com
22:54:22 <ehird95> http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/sourceforge.net
22:54:46 <AnMaster> ehird95, doesn't work. Maybe javascript?
22:54:51 <Sgeo> ais523, ehird95 gave a very good explanation of what wikia's doing
22:55:09 <ehird95> So just append the domain to the URL.
22:55:40 <AnMaster> ehird95, anyway doesn't help to answer "is svn on foo down"? or "is ssh down"?
22:55:44 <ais523> ehird95: that is a good site, although with an annoyingly long domain name
22:55:51 <ais523> I tried about:blank with it, though, and it got confused
22:56:03 <ais523> well, it tried to URL-encode the colon
22:56:04 <AnMaster> which for the only berlios site that is *NEVER* down, is rather nicely displayed on http://monitor.berlios.de/berlios-status/
22:56:09 <ais523> then said it didn't look like a website
22:56:44 <AnMaster> and not an important one at all
22:56:45 <ehird95> AnMaster, calling out ais523 for reporting on an edge case failure
22:56:49 <ehird95> and calling it not important WHAT
22:57:00 <ais523> this is rather out-of-character for AnMaster...
22:57:02 <ehird95> WHAT DID YOU DO WITH THE REAL ANMASTER?!
22:57:06 <AnMaster> ehird95, of course there are important edge cases too
22:57:13 <ehird95> Are you an abducting alien or something?!
22:57:24 <AnMaster> so it fits nicely with this channel kind of
22:57:45 <AnMaster> stop making my laugh so loud that I wake up people sleeping in the next room!
22:57:48 * oerjan adds a {{fact}} tag to wp's Malbolge article
22:58:45 <ehird95> AnMaster: me making you laugh?
22:58:50 <ehird95> ok, you're *definitely* not AnMaster
22:59:03 <ehird95> well, yes, but that's not odd
22:59:25 <AnMaster> ehird95 and yes, why did you turn funny suddenly
22:59:50 <ehird95> we abducted people in here
22:59:54 <ehird95> I abducted ehird95, for instance
22:59:59 <ehird95> then we wiped our brains to make us think we're them
23:00:14 <ehird95> I can think of no other simpler explanation. Occam's razor, I win.
23:00:56 <ais523> I think I'm acting in-character for me
23:01:04 <ais523> but I may be wrong, of course
23:01:09 <ehird95> yes, we had to put in a joke for ourselves, naturally
23:01:20 <ehird95> it makes perfect sense; what's the point of being just bewildered?
23:01:27 <ehird95> maybe we've never been amused before and this was the only way we had a chance.
23:02:05 <AnMaster> ehird95, this is rather in-character of you now ehird95
23:02:31 <AnMaster> but yeah the occasional "weird OS" is normal for you
23:02:32 <Sgeo> I'd ask if I'm acting in-character, but the question itself would be in-character
23:02:58 <AnMaster> that was actually rather funny
23:03:43 <oklofog> yeah he is usually pretty outsightful
23:03:58 <AnMaster> so I would say: By not asking, and observing that, you are not atcing in-character
23:04:08 <oerjan> AnMaster: because i would very much like someone to provide a citation for it ;)
23:04:33 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
23:04:57 <AnMaster> ehird95, ok that is not normal behaviour for you when things are too confusing.
23:05:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:06:06 <Sgeo> The sad thing is, I wasn't intending to be funny. I really was considering asking
23:06:40 <AnMaster> I wonder why there is no TCO label on my notebook. There is on my desktop monitor and some other stuff like my keyboard
23:07:04 * oerjan is reading irc in spurts, so answers are a bit delayed
23:07:05 <Sgeo> All I can think of when I see "TC0" is "THAC0"
23:07:12 <ais523> total cost of ownership?
23:07:21 <AnMaster> ais523, ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCO_Certification
23:07:27 * oklofog is reading irc without thinking, so answers are a bit incomprehensible
23:07:37 <AnMaster> almost *every* computer monitor have one of those stickers
23:07:37 <Sgeo> Also, misreading O and 0
23:07:40 <oerjan> oklofog: that's banana!
23:07:41 <ais523> "sure, you can get a nice free keyboard from a shady open-source hardware dealer now. BUT AT WHAT COST?"
23:08:22 * ais523 gives up on trying to explain
23:08:27 <Sgeo> ...I actually understand what ais523 is saying
23:08:29 <ais523> ehird95 probably knows what I mean
23:08:31 <Sgeo> Yeah, I'm not me
23:08:35 * oklofog reads about nonmeasurable sets
23:08:38 <ehird95> i'm pretty sure AnMaster is the only person going eh right now
23:08:39 -!- jix has joined.
23:09:11 <AnMaster> * ais523 gives up on trying to explain <-- stop being ehird
23:09:20 <AnMaster> really really out of character for you
23:09:27 -!- mycrofti1 has quit ("leaving").
23:09:29 <oerjan> oklofog: nonmeasurable sets are vitali important
23:09:31 <oklofog> what's up with all the characters
23:09:32 <AnMaster> * oklofog reads about nonmeasurable sets <-- ooh interesting
23:09:48 <ais523> vaguely reminds me of a seminar I had recently
23:09:56 <AnMaster> ais523, well what FUD was you parodying
23:09:57 <ais523> someone was talking about brute-forcing infinite problems in finite time
23:10:14 <ais523> AnMaster: basically, the theory is that if you install Linux now it'll cost you more later, in things like training costs
23:10:14 <oerjan> oklofog: you will have to read your homework to find out
23:10:15 <oklofog> AnMaster: i need to find an example of two sets A<=R, B<=R s.t. m*(A \union B) < m*(A) + m*(B)
23:10:23 <ais523> and come to more than the cost of Windows altogether
23:10:28 <oklofog> the reading is just so i can do that
23:10:29 <AnMaster> ais523, hah. What has it got to do with hardware?
23:10:49 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway are you seriously suggesting you never heard about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCO_Certification?
23:10:56 <oklofog> oerjan: i have read it well enough to'd remember if there were such a term :\
23:11:01 * Sgeo hasn't heard of it until now
23:11:02 <ais523> AnMaster: it hasn't, that was the joke
23:11:05 <oklofog> also did you like my use of "would"
23:11:11 <ais523> but you missed the joke because you missed the thing it was referencing
23:11:19 <AnMaster> ais523, oh ok. don't see why the joke was funny
23:11:20 <ehird95> ais523: I thought you gave up
23:11:25 <oklofog> well if there was such a term, in the material
23:11:38 <ais523> ehird95: I ungave up after you encouraged me
23:11:47 <ais523> but really, a joke that depends on a reference you don't know will never be funny
23:11:52 <ais523> because the explanation would ruin it
23:11:58 <oklofog> oerjan: actually it is mentioned
23:12:27 <AnMaster> <ais523> because the explanation would ruin it <-- jokes explained explained
23:12:39 <AnMaster> of course that goes far the other way
23:12:57 <oklofog> but it's just a small note at the beginning of the theorem
23:14:13 <oerjan> http://www.mezzacotta.net/singles/jokes_explained_explained_explained_explained.php
23:14:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, same level as last I looked then
23:15:09 <oerjan> well if you read the mezzacotta blog, obviously...
23:15:11 * ehird95 wonders... 2000 is nt just like nt 4, and nt 4 can run 95 stuff including a good portion of the explorer-type stuff
23:15:29 <ehird95> you could have the software support of 2000 with the 95 gui, almost :D
23:15:50 <AnMaster> <oerjan> well if you read the mezzacotta blog, obviously... <-- no I don't
23:16:26 <oerjan> i suppose the mezzacotta main page isn't very interesting most days
23:16:44 <Sgeo> "The Dangerous Symphony" would be a good name for an SCP
23:16:48 <AnMaster> ehird95, I remember when "software support of 2000" was sucky relative 9x
23:17:05 <ais523> Sgeo: it's the name of one of the Battle for Wesnoth background musics, IIRC
23:17:15 <Sgeo> ais523, yes, it is
23:17:23 <Sgeo> AnMaster, http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com
23:17:36 <ais523> ugh, I can't decide whether Wikidot or Wikia is worse
23:17:47 <ehird95> ais523: Wikidot just suck hard, they aren't actively evil
23:17:53 <AnMaster> I wondered about that "The Dangerous Symphony"
23:17:57 <ehird95> AnMaster: Still, XP is where it's at for software support with an even vaguely NT 4-ish system; Chrome doesn't officially support 2000, for instance (though it works if you do an offline install).
23:18:03 <ais523> ehird95: the fake-toolbar thing is pretty actively evil
23:18:06 <ehird95> But XP+95 shell sounds very unlikely to work properly.
23:18:09 <ais523> have you seen the close box on it?
23:18:10 <oklofog> i think it's used implicitly here...
23:18:11 <ehird95> ais523: no, it's just incompetent
23:18:19 <oerjan> although you want to restrict it to unit interval, so (R/Z)/(Q/Z) might be more accurate
23:18:26 <ais523> ehird95: the terms of service ban using CSS or anything like that to remove it
23:18:29 <ehird95> ais523: they're not being manipulative sociopaths to lock people in, and forcing them to put 70 ads on one page, and locking them into one theme
23:18:38 <Sgeo> ais523, there's a close box?
23:18:39 <ehird95> and they're not trying to basically take people's wikis away from them
23:18:44 <ehird95> they're just incompetent and bad at marketing
23:18:47 <AnMaster> <ais523> ehird95: the fake-toolbar thing is pretty actively evil <--- what one?
23:18:58 <Sgeo> AnMaster, go to any wikidot wiki (like the scp-wiki)
23:19:15 <ais523> instead, it's a link trying to get you to buy a paid account in order to hide the toolbar
23:19:15 <Sgeo> ais523, I don't even SEE a close box
23:19:24 <oklofog> oerjan: or you could just use an intersection
23:19:36 <AnMaster> well apart from the whole scp wiki
23:19:39 <oklofog> oh for the axiom of choice thing
23:19:45 <ais523> also, the individual pages in it (such as the history pages and what-links-heres) are unlikable
23:19:47 <Sgeo> AnMaster, the very top of the page. Scroll down a bit
23:19:48 <ehird95> [22:59] <AnMaster> can't see anything weird
23:19:48 <ehird95> [23:00] <AnMaster> well apart from the whole scp wiki
23:19:59 <oklofog> yeah maybe, i'm not actually reading, too tired for that, more like tasting the proof
23:20:08 <AnMaster> ehird95, yeah I remember seeing before.
23:20:20 <ais523> come to think of it, "unlikable" is also correct
23:20:20 <oklofog> i read it once already, but usually takes a few reads for measure theory to sink in
23:20:20 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> AnMaster, the very top of the page. Scroll down a bit <-- hm? nothing unusual?
23:20:37 <Sgeo> ..that might explain it
23:20:54 <ehird95> he did that intentionally.
23:21:01 <AnMaster> Sgeo, I can try lynx or w3m too
23:21:05 <oklofog> oerjan: also i am closely following in your footsteps, was the only one to get homework problems 1 & 2 done1
23:21:12 <AnMaster> or if you want booooooring why not konqueror?
23:21:31 <Sgeo> I'd imagine it would show in konqueror
23:21:35 * ais523 watches Microsoft's Get The Facts video thing
23:21:57 <oklofog> although i suppose i might be following even closer if i was actually interested in the nondiscrete stuff
23:23:12 <ais523> "append fail count to end of command line (/fail=%1%)
23:23:30 <ais523> wow is that an inflexible API
23:23:44 <ais523> it's some auto-run-program-on-service-error thing
23:24:18 <AnMaster> very off colour from the rest of the browser
23:24:20 <ais523> trying to explain why IIS is more reliable than CentOS 5.0
23:24:22 <AnMaster> so doesn't really look irritating or such
23:24:36 <ais523> it means Apache, they said the OS rather than the app by mistake
23:24:38 <ehird95> the wikidot toolbar doesn't annoy me
23:24:40 <Sgeo> Ok, I see the Close toolbar button now
23:25:02 <Sgeo> AnMaster, go to another page
23:25:06 <ais523> ehird95: that's against the terms of service
23:25:17 <ais523> what a ridiculous rule
23:25:19 <Sgeo> Oh wait, maybe you need to be logged in
23:25:23 <AnMaster> Sgeo, yes I'm on another one. Be aware of that javascript is turned off.
23:25:28 <ehird95> i don't see any close button
23:25:41 <ais523> ehird95: doing something to your browser to hide the toolabr
23:25:45 <Sgeo> ehird95, are you logged into Wikidot?
23:26:13 <AnMaster> I don't even have an account there
23:26:33 <ais523> wait, they're trying to administer CentOS through the GUI?
23:27:10 <Sgeo> http://imgur.com/2HLgi.png
23:27:48 <ais523> they're showing a pretty clear config file
23:27:59 <ais523> ehird95: breaks standard UI habit
23:28:06 <ais523> in that, I normally aim for the bottom toolbar
23:28:16 <ais523> adding another one confuses me and I have to slow down
23:28:30 -!- kar8nga has joined.
23:28:39 <ais523> ehird95: as in, whichever toolbar is lowest on the screen
23:28:48 <ais523> because I'm trained to look for the edges of client areas
23:30:33 <ehird95> nobody puts tab bars on the bottom
23:30:35 <ais523> making it harder to click on the tab bar is not a good thing
23:30:46 <ehird95> but the wikidot toolbar is at the top
23:30:51 <ehird95> so how can it slow you down
23:30:56 <ais523> I mean, lowest out of the things on top
23:31:06 <ais523> it's easier to hit the bottom toolbar of 3 than the third of 4
23:31:08 <ehird95> dude, it looks nothing like a toolbar.
23:31:12 <ehird95> it looks like web page content.
23:31:33 <ais523> it's toolbarish enough to fool my reflexes
23:37:58 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:40:17 <fizzie> "tab bars on the bottom" made me think of http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/mlstab.gif
23:40:38 <Sgeo> fizzie, are you trying to blind us all?
23:41:38 <fizzie> Sgeo: Okay, next time I try to remember to use http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/tcpip2.gif which is easier on the eyes, at least as far as colors go.
23:42:06 <Sgeo> fizzie's trying to poison us with uglyui-poison
23:42:22 <fizzie> Would I -- http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/mewtab.gif -- do such a thing?
23:47:35 <ehird95> I think I've just thought of the first troll linux distro.
23:51:00 <ehird95> I love how dinky the 95 start menu is
23:51:17 <ehird95> Also, is it just me, or is the fact I'm abbreviating it to 95 signalling that my brain really likes this thing?
23:55:43 <oerjan> "I'm a non-free OS, not a number!"
23:56:23 * ehird95 has embarrasingly not seen the prisoner.
23:56:40 * oerjan hasn't either. like with 99% of all other memes he passes on
23:57:56 <ehird95> today I have been putting in people's web logs that i'm using windows 95 :D
23:58:17 <ehird95> i'm sure all the statistics-gatherers will go "wtf" when they see that 1 figure, then pass it off as a forged one