00:00:07 <oerjan> although the actual ripping apart only takes a fraction of a second iirc
00:00:19 <ehird> do you just like, gradually lose all sight of the outside world and freeze in time
00:00:31 <ehird> like, do you just die when time becomes infinitely slow, or does it just slow down (you don't notice of course)
00:00:38 <ehird> and so you live and die eventually of starvation/thirst etc
00:00:41 <ehird> assuming this magic pod
00:00:44 <lament> you die way before time slows down significantly
00:00:49 <ehird> and to everyone else you just move into it slower and slower
00:00:56 <ehird> lament: well, yeah
00:01:02 <ehird> let's assume we're superhuman and live for thousands of years
00:01:16 <lament> the time slows down from the outside observer's perspective
00:01:28 <ehird> right, so my pod goes slower and slower
00:01:30 <lament> for you, the time in the universe outside the hole correspondingly speeds up
00:01:38 <lament> so very soon after, the universe ends
00:01:57 <ehird> lament: but you never lose sight of the outside world?
00:02:17 <Ilari> Assuming very large black hole, the radius where gravitational tidal forces become too large is inside the black hole.
00:02:38 <oerjan> naturally light from the outside will keep coming in...
00:03:17 <lament> according to one theory, you fall into the hole, everything flashes white as the whole remaining time of the outside universe "flashes before your eyes", and you get exploded outward in a white hole in a new universe
00:03:23 <ehird> so if i wave (really quickly so it's normal for the outside; I'm magic), no matter how far in I am, the outside can still see me?
00:03:40 <lament> ehird: the light can't get out
00:03:45 <oerjan> of course this is all assuming the inside actually exists, and is just not a mathematical abstraction that physically really stops at the horizon (outer boundary)
00:04:05 <lament> oerjan: it would certainly be a bit strange if "reality stopped" there, no?
00:04:09 <ehird> who's a christian?
00:04:14 <ehird> plz pray to god for one of dem pods
00:04:18 <ehird> I'm going to do some experimental physics
00:05:49 * Sgeo knows Christians
00:05:54 <oerjan> lament: sure but it might be where the holographic theory actually hits reality... the surface of the black hole being where you actually hit on the universe being 2-dimensional in a quantum sense. but now i am blathering.
00:06:06 <ehird> oerjan: that sounds trippy
00:06:12 <ehird> i'll take some drugs in the pod.
00:06:22 <ehird> maybe I can experience quantum fabric.
00:06:35 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle
00:06:43 <ehird> (can i just say that quantum foam is one of my favourite names for anything ever)
00:06:59 <lament> oerjan: as i understand there's a whole bunch of theories for what happens inside
00:07:09 <ehird> oerjan: "string theory" sidebar spotted
00:07:28 <Ilari> The gravititational fields in/near black hole are so extreme, that even GR breaks down at some point. But what is not known where it breaks down. Outside the event horzion, at event horizon or somewhere very near the central singularity.
00:08:05 <ehird> lament: with the "everything goes quickly and universe ends" thing, I assume the universe ends before you actually hit the singularity?
00:08:39 <lament> i guess it depends on whether the universe is finite :)
00:09:36 <ehird> what if someone else came in a pod at the exact same time?
00:09:44 <ehird> could you see them? could they see you? are your times the same?
00:11:15 <lament> are your shoe sizes the same?
00:11:29 <oerjan> ehird: by the equations of general relativity, once you pass the horizon there is a finite time from your perspective until you hit the inner singularity
00:11:56 <lament> oerjan: but would the universe end before that?
00:12:11 <oerjan> now if those finite times overlap for the two pods, i would assume they could interact if the inner space actually exists
00:12:16 <ehird> has anyone ever noticed how arbitrary physics is :P
00:12:28 <ehird> lament: before you hit
00:12:31 <ehird> if the universe ends you cannot hit
00:12:34 <ehird> so it has to be before
00:13:38 <oerjan> ehird: you do realize that the relativity of simultaneity inside a black hole is so great that it might not make sense to speak of whether the outer universe has ended or not?
00:14:45 <lament> oerjan: but wouldn't the hole have evaporated by then???
00:15:03 <oerjan> its horizon would ... but would the inside?
00:15:23 <ehird> so wait, if it's subjective whether the universe is ended
00:15:25 <ehird> we just need a huge pod
00:15:33 <ehird> and stuff everyone (now immortal) in it
00:15:35 <ehird> go into a black hole
00:15:42 <ehird> infinitely long-lasting universe
00:17:42 <oerjan> i'm sure there must be some scifi based on that idea
00:18:27 <ehird> we need a branch of physics just dedicated to finding out all the awesome shit you could do if the pod existed.
00:30:58 -!- coppro has joined.
00:45:52 <ehird> so, anyone with Enigma?
00:46:00 <ehird> 0.92-3#16 Almost There
00:46:07 <ehird> protip: third block on the right side
00:46:13 <ehird> apparently it's 6x6 screens big
01:07:54 -!- Asztal has joined.
01:26:04 <ehird> "Microsoft's new Barrelfish OS: built on domain specific languages written in Haskell :: PDF"
01:26:54 <Sgeo> "Where is zero - I can only approach it"
01:27:32 -!- oerjan has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:28:02 -!- oerjan has joined.
01:28:05 <Sgeo> "Sgeo - Any context of zero - it doesn't matter if it is numbers (they make an imaginary place and call it zero) - it is known only by God"
01:28:12 <Sgeo> ^^someone in a Bible channel
01:28:41 <ehird> anyway, surely you have better things to do than troll a bible channel
01:29:19 <Sgeo> When I see someone saying things like "I guess only Our Almighty Father knows how a quark can exist and yet not exist at the same time.", what can I do
01:29:39 <Sgeo> Unless there really is a quantum physics thing with simulantaneous existance/non-existance
01:30:13 <ehird> Realise that they're delusional and believe an inconsistent, unjustified assertion without evidence, and thus cannot be reasoned with and will contradict facts merely because they contradict their own contradictory belief system?
01:31:11 <Sgeo> I'm not even talking about God. I'm talking about science.
01:31:24 <oerjan> Sgeo: You could point out that just because they don't understand something, it doesn't mean that God intends _all_ human beings forever not to understand it.
01:31:32 <ehird> And they will not separate the two; science only comes below God.
01:31:37 <ehird> You are wasting your time.
01:32:04 <Sgeo> oerjan, this guy things he understands things, like how humans don't understand 0 or infinity
01:32:22 <ehird> Of course he doesn't understand things, he's a Christian!
01:32:48 <oerjan> ehird: you're as prejudiced as that guy
01:32:58 <ehird> have you ever read the bible oerjan
01:33:10 <Sgeo> Technically, I haven't seen that guy be prejudiced, just stupid
01:33:32 <coppro> ehird: comments like that indicate your prejudice
01:33:44 <oerjan> ehird: you are refusing to see the point that just because someone believes the bible they don't have to extend their stupidity to _everything_
01:33:49 <Sgeo> ehird, the Bible may be evil, but that doesn't mean Christians are
01:33:55 <ehird> oerjan: of course - but this person clearly DOES
01:34:15 <oerjan> ehird: sure, but it is not _because_ of the bible
01:34:23 <ehird> Anyway, of course I'm prejudiced against idiots. At least my belief system is self-correcting, has shown real results and is not based on unfalsifiable obvious fairy tales.
01:34:28 <coppro> Nothing wrong with the Bible. Not a great read, tough.
01:34:33 <Sgeo> Woohoo! I just proved to myself that I'm capable of disagreeing with ehird!
01:34:39 <ehird> oerjan: considering the bible says so much that is simply not so, scientifically, it totally is
01:35:13 <coppro> ehird: so you hate science fiction?
01:35:16 <Sgeo> ehird, not all Christians are idiots. Not closely examining every little thing that you were taught does not make you an idiot.
01:35:26 <ehird> coppro: I don't believe science fiction is true.
01:35:28 <ehird> If I did I would be an idiot.
01:35:38 <ehird> Sgeo: I never claimed all Christians are idiots.
01:35:42 <ehird> I am talking about *one* *person*.
01:35:53 <Sgeo> "<ehird> Of course he doesn't understand things, he's a Christian!"
01:36:01 <coppro> so basically what you're saying is the Bible is evil because people believe it?
01:36:17 <ehird> coppro: I also never said the bible is evil; please do not take Sgeo's misquotes and apply them to me. thanks.
01:36:28 <ehird> (b) not implying anything
01:36:30 <Sgeo> I'm the one who said the Bible was evil
01:36:40 <ehird> Christians do indeed not understand things; not all things, and I never said they were idiots.
01:36:41 <coppro> ehird: oh wait, I was misreading one of your responses to oerjan
01:36:51 <ehird> But being a Christian in the modern age is, indeed, not understanding things about science.
01:37:02 <coppro> or at least about what is fiction and what isn't
01:37:28 <ehird> the bible's rather shoddy fiction, no coherent plot and a lot of gratuitous explicit scenes, and the hero is a bitch :P
01:38:05 <coppro> I completely agree with you there!
01:38:39 <coppro> But people believing in the Bible and understanding science are not mutually exclusive
01:39:12 <ehird> Considering the Bible states things that are simply scientifically untrue, yes they are
01:39:30 <Sgeo> ehird, unless they read the whole Bible and take the whole thing literally, no
01:39:39 <ehird> "Believing in the Bible" was what was said.
01:40:04 <ehird> But sure, if you believe in an arbitrary subset of the Bible according to an arbitrary interpretation ignoring the text... no, wait, you're still believing in something unfalsifiable given without evidence, so you fail at science.
01:40:08 <Sgeo> It might still be considered to "believe in the Bible" without taking the whole thing loiterally
01:40:39 <coppro> ehird: I know someone who maintains everything in the Bible to be 100% fact while still agreeing with modern science. He gets a bit fuzzy around some bits, but I would not consider himself to be unscientific
01:40:40 <Sgeo> ehird, maybe at applying science to everything, but that doesn't mean you disagree with scientific knowledge
01:41:07 <ehird> coppro: So, let me get this straight: what does he do with his hair? does he stone adulterers?
01:41:14 <ehird> Or has he resigned himself to going to Hell?
01:41:41 <Sgeo> ehird, possibly took the shortcut of saying that Jesus overturned the rules of the OT, or whatever
01:41:43 <coppro> ehird: no, he keeps it shot lest he develop gargantuan strength and accidentally hurt a friend ;)
01:42:08 <ehird> coppro: so, apart from that wink there, he clearly does not take the bible as 100% true
01:42:41 <coppro> ehird: my sarcasm, not his
01:42:49 <coppro> his hair is short though
01:43:03 <ehird> I was simply stating that he empirically does not believe in the Bible totally.
01:43:07 <ehird> and this is undeniable
01:43:41 <coppro> ehird: You'd be surprised. I haven't managed to work out how he manages to believe in modern science and the Bible. But he does.
01:46:32 <ehird> I just disproved it
01:47:07 <coppro> ehird: no, you did not
01:47:50 <ehird> so what does he do with adulterers.
01:48:18 <coppro> to my knowledge he's never encountered one
01:48:21 <coppro> your premise is that a logical belief-system and an illogical one are irreconcilable because they contradict each other. Do note, however, that one of the belief systems is illogical, and thus the combined beliefe system is, by definition, illogical.
01:48:53 <ehird> it's simple, if he doesn't do what the bible says, and he doesn't think he's going to hell, then he does NOT BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE
01:49:46 <coppro> I'd have to ask him on that one
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01:50:53 <coppro> but I suspect that he would say that the specific instructions given in the Bible can only be properly interpreted in their historical context
02:05:55 <ehird> coppro: you mean he doesn't literally believe in the bible? shocking.
02:06:36 <coppro> ehird: He believes in it; he just doesn't take the instructions literally
02:07:21 <ehird> every christian "believes" in the bible by that measure
02:07:38 <ehird> it's only unusual if they believe in what it says as WHAT IT SAYS rather than some extremely hamfisted, arbitrary interpretation of their own design
02:07:54 <Warrigal> Sgeo: did you agree with ehird when you did something and he said that people who do that are idiots?
02:08:24 <Sgeo> Warrigal, I'd need to be reminded of when this was
02:08:35 <Sgeo> Although it sounds familiar, as in, very recent
02:08:45 <ehird> possibly because i do that all the time.
02:08:58 <ehird> But I'm fairly sure Warrigal wouldn't know; he does, after all, have me on ignore.
02:09:01 <coppro> ehird: he believes in the historical account.
02:09:07 <Warrigal> I believe you said "s***", asterisks and all, and he said that self-censorship is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of offense or something.
02:09:27 <ehird> coppro: so he believes in it selectively
02:09:28 <ehird> yes historical accounts
02:09:33 <ehird> i.e., selectively.
02:10:09 <coppro> ehird: if I told you to go pour me a glass of water, and instead you dipped the glass in a pitcher, would you be, for any reasonable definition, violating my instruction?
02:10:18 <Sgeo> Warrigal, I think I might have disagreed, then
02:10:30 <ehird> coppro: yes, if we're talking about interpreting your instructions *literally*
02:10:45 <ehird> we're talking about whether he believes in the bible literally, which is the whole point of the bible: to be believed in as it says
02:10:53 <ehird> coppro: because I didn't pour.
02:10:57 <ehird> I put it in a pitcher instead.
02:11:00 <Warrigal> ...Hey, there are Christians on IRC.
02:11:06 <coppro> ehird: why are we taking everything literally though?
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02:11:27 <ehird> Warrigal: even in here :P
02:12:24 <Warrigal> I wonder where I can find these people.
02:12:42 <ehird> Warrigal: most places. in here, for instance. oh wait you can't hear me
02:13:11 <coppro> Warrigal: Try #christianity or something on a network that tolerates them
02:13:26 * coppro remembers and awesome bash quote now
02:15:08 <Warrigal> I wonder if freenode is a network that tolerates... it.
02:15:25 <coppro> precisely why I mentioned other networks in the first place
02:15:36 <coppro> everything goes on efnet
02:15:41 <ehird> "Come join us in ##religion where the main community is building"
02:15:51 <ehird> A whole 13 people in ##religion.
02:16:28 <Warrigal> freenode policy says that religious "invective" is off-topic. Presumably, civil discussion is just fine.
02:16:40 <ehird> freenode is for peer-directed project.
02:16:51 <ehird> anyway, I don't understand Warrigal; is he realising that there are Christians on IRC at all, or that they might congregate in one channel?
02:43:52 <Sgeo> #atheism, #Bible, and #secondlife
02:44:21 <Warrigal> Is #secondlife a Bible channel?
02:45:04 <ehird> Warrigal: master of asking questions that he knows the answer to.
03:07:34 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
03:41:36 * ehird attempts to find Helvetica and Helvetica Neue in single unified .ttfs with hinting
03:52:58 -!- Rugxulo has left (?).
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04:10:36 <ehird> haven't seen your name around here before; new?
04:11:02 <ehird> yes, turn back before the darkness envelops you
04:11:18 <ehird> I presume you're here for the programming languages and not the esoterick magick we sometimes see people after
04:11:53 <ehird> in which case, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page will be useful if you haven't already seen it
04:11:56 <hekau> what makes you think that?
04:12:13 <ehird> hekau: well, because that's what this channel is about and technology is freenode's main topic. i guess my assumption was erroneous?
04:12:45 <hekau> no, the mistake was mine - you are correct. how embarassing.
04:13:06 <hekau> though i am also fond of code
04:13:42 <ehird> technically we only deal in the useless languages, which is closer to esoterica than most related things.
04:14:12 <hekau> brainfuck, for example?
04:14:29 <ehird> that's the canonical example, also: unlambda, intercal
04:14:53 <ehird> anyway, we're off-topic an awful lot, although I doubt we could seriously entertain the topic of magick for more than a few seconds :)
04:15:07 <hekau> i'm not into magick :)
04:15:36 <ehird> i was using it as a blanket term for esoterica, heretical as that may be
04:15:42 <hekau> rather the psychology of the occult - more of an anthropologic perspective, you know?
04:16:07 <ehird> hekau: none of those words make any sense to me and yet they are somehow infinitely intriguing
04:16:11 <ehird> what on earth do you mean
04:16:58 <ehird> well okay, i understand all of them
04:17:32 <hekau> rather than focusing on the application of occult knowledge, i instead enjoy musing with the human aspect of the occult - ie what is it about the occult that appeals to people, where does it derive its power, is it merely a manifestation of subconscious human abilities, etc. etc.
04:17:43 <hekau> why do certain symbols have power
04:17:50 <hekau> or specific connotations within our psyche
04:17:52 <ehird> can i be a cynical bastard and answer that it has no power. :)
04:18:01 <hekau> no, you are absolutely correct
04:18:04 <hekau> the occult has no power
04:18:31 <hekau> and when they exert their will towards a certain goal
04:18:36 <hekau> it gives the illusion of power
04:18:39 <hekau> kind of like a placebo of the mind
04:18:40 <ehird> hekau: so sort of like, what the appeal of the occult is to people? and why it psychologically, causes changes in them?
04:19:34 <ehird> is there an existing stuff on this or is it something you thought up :)
04:20:12 <coppro> ehird: it's called neurosis
04:20:24 <hekau> i'm sure there are people out there who study the occult from the psychological level, but usually they use different terms to avoid the negative connotations
04:20:40 <ehird> [[Neurosis (from the Greek νεύρωσις) refers to a class of functional mental disorder involving distress but neither delusions nor hallucinations]]
04:21:01 <coppro> ehird: don't trust wikipedia
04:21:12 <coppro> Princeton's is better "a mental or personality disturbance not attributable to any known neurological or organic dysfunction "
04:21:29 <hekau> so, coppro, do you refer to the study of neurosis
04:21:30 <ehird> wow that's useless
04:21:33 <hekau> or that i am neurotic?
04:21:40 <ehird> "Neurosis: It's the condition when we don't know what the fuck the condition is!"
04:21:44 <hekau> probably the former
04:21:58 <hekau> then yes, you are exactly correct.
04:22:04 <coppro> see, for example, the placebo effect
04:22:16 <ehird> placebo is about physical
04:22:27 <ehird> as hekau said they're talking about placebo of the mental
04:22:35 <ehird> ^ awkward sentence there
04:22:35 <coppro> but it's caused neurologically
04:23:05 <hekau> neurosis by the princeton definition does apply in this context
04:23:33 <hekau> this example is a bit cliche
04:23:36 <ehird> so wait, coppro uses a term, I dispute it with a definition
04:23:37 <coppro> people experience things that cannot be attributed to any disease simply because they want to
04:23:42 <ehird> he disputes it back with a definition that doesn't apply either
04:23:47 <hekau> but the nazi party is the perfect case of occultism at work
04:24:07 <hekau> that is a form of neurosis
04:24:18 <hekau> ehird - too logical :P
04:24:52 <ehird> anyway, the nazi party didn't really have rituals did it
04:24:57 <ehird> it was just brainwashing of a sort
04:25:12 <coppro> ehird: why do you think double-blind experiments exist? It's well-documented, for instance, that expectations bias even the most meticulous of scientists
04:25:12 <hekau> surprisingly they made heavy use of occult symbolism
04:25:28 <ehird> coppro: I agree; and?
04:25:42 <ehird> hekau: true, but aren't rituals a kinda important aspect of occultism?
04:25:43 <coppro> ehird: it's the same thing
04:25:47 <hekau> the swastika, the symbol for the SS, a skull resting atop two crossed bones, terminology, the linkage between the aryan race and german mythology
04:26:09 <hekau> coppro, ah now were in the realm of werner heisenberg
04:26:18 <coppro> ehird: what hekau was talking about, with people causing their expectations/beliefs to change their perceptions of the world
04:26:36 <ehird> Double blind is just guarding against people giving signals unintentionally.
04:26:47 <hekau> ehird, i'm sure there are rituals as well
04:26:53 <ehird> so guys, did we just go off topic in three lines or what
04:26:56 <hekau> you'd be surprised - let me try to find some
04:26:58 <coppro> ehird: it's more than that
04:27:19 <hekau> ah, wikipedia to the rescue - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialism_and_Occultism
04:28:05 <hekau> of course they have to name drop aleister crowley in there
04:28:34 <ehird> anyway hitler was a christian, so it seems quite odd to adopt occultism
04:28:34 <coppro> A perfect blind experiment, for instance, requires the researchers setting up the experiment and the researchers measuring the results to be different and unaware of each other
04:28:38 <ehird> then again he wasn't much of a christian.
04:28:55 <ehird> i mean, A+ for the practicing christianity thing, F for killing a bunch of people, you know
04:29:06 <hekau> ehird, the masons, rosicrucians, etc. are all 'christian' orders
04:29:19 <ehird> Masonry isn't anything though.
04:29:26 <hekau> well, not outwardly
04:29:27 <coppro> ehird: he was pretty A+ at killing people
04:29:36 <hekau> but they do require a belief in god
04:29:52 <hekau> coppro, unfortunately
04:30:05 <hekau> this is a good convo.
04:30:14 <ehird> hekau: now, let's not get into conspiracy theories; by all accounts masonry is a bunch of people chatting and considering themselves superior because they act out silly plays and claim to believe in god
04:30:36 <hekau> hekau, i thought you were referring to nothing as in no religious affiliation
04:30:41 * Gregor chants mason voodoo quietly in the corner.
04:30:42 <ehird> besides, they're agnostic as to what religion as long as it has a Supreme Being; although the rest of it may be stepped in Christianity, I don't know
04:30:47 <ehird> hekau: stop talking to yourself!
04:30:58 <ehird> Gregor: Nazi mason voodoo.
04:31:03 <hekau> i have my best conversations with myself
04:31:13 <hekau> nazi mason voodoo of aleister crowley no less
04:31:25 <ehird> nazi mason voodoo of aleister crowley's rubber duck.
04:32:46 <hekau> anyways really we're just dealing with the inherent will of the individual here
04:32:52 <hekau> and not any magic or whatever
04:33:14 <hekau> when enough people believe something it becomes true
04:33:23 <hekau> so there you have it
04:33:34 <ehird> pretty much what i thought prior
04:33:44 <hekau> yeah, but what a shock to all the goths
04:34:11 <ehird> what? why? you just don't appreciate the vibrations, man
04:34:20 <ehird> you just can't accept what uh, isn't real
04:34:36 <hekau> mom, can i summon the devil to help me clean my room?
04:34:56 <Gregor> NOT UNTIL YOU CLEAN YOUR ROOM
04:35:18 <hekau> you don't understand me, mom! nobody does! KORN
04:35:58 <hekau> pantheism is interesting
04:36:03 <hekau> naturalistic pantheism
04:36:18 <Gregor> porntheism is more interesting.
04:36:20 <ehird> pantheism is boring. "if I redefine 'god' to mean 'universe', I can be an atheistic theist! GENIUS!"
04:36:28 <ehird> "i'm so... profound..."
04:37:07 <ehird> i kinda get the feeling someone took einstein's words a bit too literally and came up with pantheism
04:37:26 <coppro> I believe in spooky action at a distance
04:37:37 <hekau> i believe in synchronicity
04:37:56 <hekau> ehird, einstein does get muddled
04:38:03 <ehird> isn't synchronicity just a word for "i don't understand probability-- hey, look, a coincidence!"
04:39:20 <hekau> meaningful coincidence is probabilistic?
04:39:58 <hekau> i can be wrong here, it's cool.
04:41:06 <ehird> I find that synchronicity is always explainable with less hand-waving and metaphysics by probability, the fact that coincidences *do* happen, and the brain's selective remembering: how many instances of non-synchronicity do you remember?! (see also: Baader-Meinhof phenomenon)
04:41:16 <ehird> wtf it was deleted.
04:41:41 <ehird> the basic thing is that you see something, then notice it more
04:41:46 <ehird> because previously, your brain subconsciously ignored it
04:41:52 <ehird> but then when it's brought to your attention...
04:41:59 <ehird> and so, it seems that everyone's finding something at the same time as you
04:42:06 <ehird> your brain becoming more alert to mentionings of it
04:42:10 <hekau> that just sounds like advertising
04:42:28 <hekau> bombard someone with something until they notice
04:42:41 <ehird> it's simply: if you think about something, your brain switches from "subconsciously ignore" to "try to find"
04:42:52 <ehird> advertising could use it, i guess, but it's unrelated
04:43:00 <hekau> i see what you're getting at
04:43:18 <hekau> what's it called...self manifestation or something or other
04:43:37 <ehird> (I'm not sure why it's called that)
04:44:14 <ehird> The "Baader-Meinhof phenomenon" was coined by a reader of the St. Paul Pioneer Press. The Minnesota newspaper runs a daily column called "Bulletin Board," for which readers, using pseudonyms, submit humorous or interesting anecdotes. The term was coined when a reader submitted a story around 1986,[1] about how he or she first heard about the terrorist group known as the Baader-Meinhof Gang and then heard about it again a short while later from a totally d
04:44:18 <ehird> http://www.iterasi.net/openviewer.aspx?sqrlitid=vpdslrou9k6lgly97zdw9w
04:44:21 <ehird> copy of the WP article
04:44:59 <hekau> thanks for the article
04:47:32 <ehird> i guess one day we'll have to accept that we're no longer just about the languages :)
04:48:05 <hekau> haha, i'm sorry to drag you all so off topic
04:48:14 <ehird> this is... normal :|
04:48:37 <hekau> well, i'll be off then
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04:48:50 <hekau> it was fun chaps, thanks for humoring me
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04:49:35 <ehird> Stop it stop it stop it stop it stop it stop it stop it and especially stop THAT but stop the emacs too.
04:51:08 <Sgeo[Emacs]> I'm not going to use this as my regular client, incidentally
04:51:08 <ehird> You are using an IRC client written in a dialect of Lisp with no lexical scoping in a no-multitasking, crippled ...thing environment that claims to be an operating system and has so many kludges your brain would hurt.
04:51:20 <ehird> *claims to be an editor
04:51:25 <ehird> Freudian slip there.
04:52:04 <Sgeo[Emacs]> Blame the book I bought at least 9 years ago that I thought would be about Macs
04:52:19 <ehird> No, I blame you because you did this.
04:52:35 <coppro> Whee lack of lexical scoping!
04:52:52 <ehird> At least have the decency to use vim if you're going to be using an awful editor. It has a coherent philosophy of combining commands and what they apply to.
04:53:09 <coppro> languages without lexical scoping are great for some things
04:53:11 <ehird> Test failed because you're using ERC.
04:53:28 <ehird> You are a bad person.
04:54:05 <Sgeo[Emacs]> So, I take it that ehird doesn't like lisp?
04:54:23 <ehird> I never said that.
04:54:41 <Sgeo[Emacs]> If it doesn't have lexical scoping... or is it just elisp that doesn't have it?
04:54:54 <ehird> I dislike Lisps with no lexical scoping, a ton of shitness and a bunch of design decisions firmly rooted in the 80s running in a terrible, crippled single-tasking environment that sucks so much because it used to be an editor.
04:55:04 <ehird> Every Lisp worth its salt has lexical scoping.
04:55:07 <ehird> Every LANGUAGE worth its salt does.
04:55:53 <Sgeo> What happens if I ping Sgeo[Emacs]
04:56:19 <Sgeo> Emacs doesn't react, or otherwise indicate to switch over to it, but the nick's hilighted
05:01:01 <Sgeo[Emacs]> For some reason, emacs got confused and decided that my /server was in this window
05:02:08 <Sgeo> http://imgur.com/uLH0g.png
05:02:28 <ehird> Cool, you're not even using EmacsW32.
05:03:32 <Sgeo> I didn't even know it existed. Thanks
05:03:40 <ehird> Use the patched version.
05:03:48 <ehird> Also, hide the toolbar. It's worthless.
05:06:19 <Sgeo[Emacs]> If I said that I was using CUA, what would your reaction be?
05:07:55 <ehird> That's saner than the Emacs bindings. Too bad you broke your C-x key. Oh wait, it has a hack to fix that. Shazam, it sure is nice hacking around the fact that Emacs is a pile of shit.
05:10:00 <Sgeo[Emacs]> Didn't you once tell me to use emacs to edit haskell source?
05:10:17 <ehird> yes, at the time there was nothing better. maybe leksah is decent these days.
05:10:29 <ehird> but definitely not for anything that isn't haskell or lisp editing.
05:11:07 <Sgeo[Emacs]> Being able to click a link and having it open
05:11:27 <ehird> xchat-gnome has that, and I think it's a setting in xchat.
05:13:43 <Sgeo[Emacs]> What's this Pal and Fo... are these just ERC's names for friend and ignore?
05:13:58 <ehird> Emacs, using different, stupid terminology for existing concepts?
05:14:08 <Sgeo> No, it just made my name grey
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05:22:46 <ehird> Doesn't that cut? OH WAIT IT'S BASED ON THE PRESENCE OF A SELECTION AND A TIME DELAY.
05:22:51 <ehird> Emacs kludges, I'm shocked. shocked.
05:25:49 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that C-c C-c might be ambiguous
05:26:22 <Sgeo> Is it C-c - or C-c C-c?
05:28:30 <lament> c-Cc_c-C--CC-C-CCcc-C--C
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05:54:45 <ehird> esco is a running joke here. well, used to be.
05:55:03 <ehird> because it's a shitty idea, and they spammed our wiki.
05:55:10 <Gregor> Until it became so wildly out of date that we forgot about it.
05:55:11 <ehird> also, they live in a warped version of reality;
05:55:17 <ehird> "Byter is a language for training your brain" -esco
05:55:20 <ehird> "Byter is a language for training brains" -esolang wiki
05:55:35 <ehird> Gregor: I liked how they implemented all the BF derivatives with a huge amount of boilerplate
05:56:08 <Rugxulo> wildly out of date? the wiki??
05:57:04 <Rugxulo> I'm wondering what Gregor was referring to
05:57:15 * Rugxulo is looking at the esco package
05:57:34 <Rugxulo> sure, there's a lot of "boilerplate" there, but the GNU Auto{conf,make} stuff takes more room than anything
05:57:36 <ehird> it's shit and the idea is shit
05:57:47 <Rugxulo> written in C++ too (meh) :-/
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05:58:18 <Rugxulo> "now type 'make' and pray"... heh
05:58:45 <pikhq> So much boilerplate...
05:59:01 <pikhq> Guys, you can *totally use macros*. Just saying.
05:59:17 <ehird> esco is fundamentally pointless; nobody has ever thought "gee, I wish all these slow and badly-written esolang interpreters were in the same binary"
05:59:27 <Rugxulo> macros in C++? isn't that frowned upon?
05:59:31 <pikhq> And yes, it's all pretty poor.
05:59:57 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Because people prefer typing more?
06:00:37 <pikhq> C macros are crappy metaprogramming, but it is at least metaprogramming. And C++ *badly* needs it...
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06:15:19 <oklopol> i've recently come to realize math is not as easy as cs.
06:16:55 <oklopol> one of the exercises in automata theory took me like 5 hours
06:17:07 <oklopol> i should be a fucking expert! :P
06:17:40 * Rugxulo got esco to work ... barely
06:17:50 <pikhq> Automata theory is... Both math and CS...
06:18:13 <oklopol> sure, but it's at math dep, therefore has about 40 times harder homework.
06:19:44 <oklopol> i'm not saying math is inherently harder than cs... although i suppose it is
06:19:51 <oklopol> so i guess i am saying that
06:20:48 <oklopol> also enough irc for today, the fun starts in 10 minutes ~>
06:23:00 <ehird> presumably classes.
06:25:04 * Rugxulo considered that although in his part of the world, it's a little after midnight
06:29:56 <Rugxulo> so what exactly were the problems with esco?
06:30:14 <ehird> <ehird> because it's a shitty idea, and they spammed our wiki.
06:30:16 <ehird> <ehird> esco is fundamentally pointless; nobody has ever thought "gee, I wish all these slow and badly-written esolang interpreters were in the same binary"
06:30:41 <ehird> they were also obnoxious on irc.
06:31:58 * Rugxulo notes the irony of that statement ;-)
06:32:07 * coppro tries to think of the last time he's set himself up for disappointment this much
06:32:23 <ehird> Rugxulo: I'm an asshole; there's a difference.
06:32:47 <Rugxulo> ehird, I think IRC itself just lends to colder interaction
06:33:35 <ehird> yeah, i'm not a dick irl :)
06:33:42 <ehird> that's mostly due to shyness, though.
06:35:23 <Rugxulo> BTW, esco isn't that bad an idea, but it's pretty paltry to only support say six languages (I expected lots more)
06:35:58 <ehird> why is it a good idea. why should every language be written by people who aren't experts in it, and have it all put in one binary
06:36:01 <ehird> what is the purpose
06:37:03 <ehird> not even slightly similar
06:37:06 <ehird> parrot is just a vm.
06:37:45 <Rugxulo> but they have implemented various languages for it
06:37:58 <ehird> the concepts are completely unrelated
06:40:31 <Rugxulo> ehird, you say they're all slow, but sometimes speed isn't important
06:40:42 <coppro> it executes as much as possible esoteric languages?
06:41:25 <ehird> why not just use a standalone interpreter
06:41:47 <ehird> esco's interpreters all suck their only advantage is that they're all in one binary and maintained by people who don't know the language due to attempting to be jacks of all trades
06:41:50 <coppro> because a VM has advantages
06:41:51 <ehird> plus they spammed our wiki.
06:41:57 <ehird> coppro: they don't have a vm
06:42:01 <ehird> it's all separate interpreters
06:42:32 <coppro> on an unrelated note, I should learn to use LLVM
06:43:31 <Rugxulo> ehird, not all standalone interpreters are created equal anyways
06:43:42 <Rugxulo> so I don't think esco is necessarily any worse than most
06:44:58 <Rugxulo> for instance, the wiki says BFF4LNR is the fastest interpreter
06:45:30 <Rugxulo> but that's debatable, esp. since he only used old compilers (and it got worse with Cygwin on the second test, which is suspicious)
06:46:44 <ehird> all of esco's interpreters are 5-minute affairs that standalone, would be worthless. all it is is a switch over multiple languages executing each one. this is identical to multiple binaries, but stupider, and only serves to try and hide the fact that the interpreters are bad and anyone could make one equivalent in a few minutes: these are not best of breed; they're rubbish
06:46:49 <ehird> also, they spammed our wiki; did i mention that.
06:47:34 <Rugxulo> spammed as in what? kept adding over and over and over despite resistance?
06:47:49 <Rugxulo> and standalone wastes more cluster space, don't cha know ;-)
06:48:01 <ehird> they added their interpreter to every single language article they supported, and readded them back without comment when they were removed
06:48:11 <ehird> once months after, iirc
06:48:39 <Rugxulo> some people (e.g. Wikipedia) are more against external links than others
06:48:47 <Rugxulo> the Befunge article on Wikipedia isn't exactly perfect either
06:48:54 * Rugxulo should edit that one of these days
06:49:23 <ehird> befunge isn't really notable
06:49:52 <Rugxulo> sure it is, more than HPQ+ (or whatever it's called) ;-)
06:50:09 <ehird> yeah, and this irc channel is more notable than my toilet.
06:51:18 <coppro> there's also the object-oriented variant, HQ9++
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13:59:37 <ais523> ehird will probably think I'm crazy but: I have a massively powerful desktop computer here, but I'm using it just to talk on IRC while my laptop does a fsck
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14:07:03 <fizzie> FireFly: Capable of destroying a planet in a single stroke.
14:07:18 <FireFly> I take it you don't have a program to do that?
14:07:25 <FireFly> Or else you'd have used it, I mean
14:08:01 <fizzie> I think it's in a Ubuntu repository somewhere, but I don't have a massively enough powerful desktop.
14:09:30 <ais523> FireFly: more powerful than I'm used to computers being
14:09:38 <ais523> so probably less powerful than whatever ehird has
14:10:04 <AnMaster> ais523, cat /proc/cpuinfo free -m lspci
14:10:20 <AnMaster> all of those works as non-root
14:10:35 <ais523> I was just checking the permissions on /proc first
14:10:40 <ais523> (I'm rather paranoid...)
14:10:51 <AnMaster> ais523, you *can't* change proc permissions afaik
14:11:07 <AnMaster> well, unless you patch the kernel
14:11:07 <ais523> you could mount it inside a folder that didn't have the right permissions to seek into it
14:11:12 <ais523> you do need root perms to mount proc
14:11:37 <ais523> anyway, it seems to be a Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q8200 @ 2.33GHz
14:11:56 <AnMaster> ais523, you need root permissions to mount anything. Except that there is suid stuff to handle stuff like "any user may mount the cd" and such
14:11:58 <ais523> which runs at 1998MHz, according to the same entry
14:12:11 <ais523> and yes, it has 4 cores
14:12:16 <ais523> which seems to fit the name
14:12:23 <AnMaster> ais523, about running speed: dynamic cpu speed, will increase ondemand
14:12:28 <AnMaster> surely you have seen that before
14:12:38 <ais523> probably; I didn't realise that showed up in /proc/cpuinfo though
14:13:13 <ais523> as for memory, it seems to have 2002516k RAM and 4192924k swap (according to top)
14:13:24 <FireFly> "AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 4600+", @ ~2GHz IIRC
14:13:46 <FireFly> Which is fast enough for me, for now
14:14:01 <fizzie> ais523: All in all, that's not really "massively powerful". You could maybe destroy a small moon with it, I guess.
14:14:27 <ais523> local-to-HD partitions that are mounted atm seem to have 57.5 GB total space
14:14:34 <ais523> but my home drive's on a network share somewhere
14:14:41 <ais523> with an artificially small size
14:14:49 <ais523> so disk isn't really very easy to measure
14:15:43 <fizzie> FireFly: 2G, already mentioned.
14:15:57 <FireFly> Oh, there, missed that line
14:19:41 <ais523> well, that doesn't look like exactly 2G, but close enough
14:20:00 <ais523> that number isn't even a mix of binary and decimal multipliers like 1000MiB would be
14:20:11 <fizzie> There's always some bits and pieces reserved for whatever.
14:20:15 <ais523> maybe it has integrated graphics or something stupid like that
14:20:21 <fizzie> Well, just for the record; this work-workstation is a "Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU E8400 @ 3.00GHz" (though running at 2 GHz), with 2 GB of memory and a 160G local disk, though with some four-five terabytes of network shares (mostly full); so ais523's box is certainly more powerful. I'd be lucky to manage to destroy a small Kuiper belt object with this.
14:21:41 <FireFly> My desktop computer has about the same specs as that
14:22:40 <ais523> this one will probably come in useful for things like placing&routing (that is, taking a schematic and trying to lay it out in physical space)
14:22:54 <ais523> that's generally done by brute force or genetic algorithms, and takes hours as a result
14:23:32 <ais523> hmm... the clock here seems wrong
14:23:34 <fizzie> We're officially supposed to farm anything that takes more than a trivial amount of computation to our grid for computation.
14:23:36 <ais523> maybe it's showing UTC?
14:23:59 <ais523> % date \ Thu Oct 1 14:23:47 BST 2009
14:24:04 <ais523> also, what's with that prompt?
14:24:16 <ais523> % echo $SHELL \ /bham/bin/tcsh
14:24:27 <fizzie> It says "BST" there, though. Maybe it's just wrong-wrong?
14:24:37 <ais523> what time is it actually?
14:24:48 <fizzie> Thu Oct 1 13:24:43 UTC 2009
14:24:52 <fizzie> Something like that, UTC.
14:25:23 <ais523> help, I've lost an hour somehow
14:25:28 <ais523> it was 2 pm here over an hour ago
14:25:37 <ais523> and now everyone's teling me it was only about 24 minutes?
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14:26:25 <fizzie> Hrrm, that recent freenode global notice makes it sound like a deliberate act.
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14:27:11 <fizzie> Ka-pow. That "very shortly" in there wasn't kidding.
14:27:29 <FireFly> [15:25:30] <christel> [>> $*] [Global Notice] Hi all, unfortunately one of our former developers has left behind a memory leak in our ircd software which means we'll need to restart several ircds over the next few days. We're going to stagger it to reduce disruption, and the first round will be happening very shortly. Affected users for now will be about 1300. Apologies for the inconvenience!
14:27:31 -!- Cerise has changed nick to Guest19311.
14:27:50 <ais523> I wonder how they discovered the leak?
14:28:00 <ais523> anyway, I went to a lecture at 2pm
14:28:05 <ais523> it lasted an hour, then it was 3pm
14:28:09 <ais523> then I went to my office
14:28:24 <ais523> conclusion: I'm thinking too much about Feather
14:28:24 <fizzie> "-christel- [Global Notice] Hi all, unfortunately one of our former developers has left behind a memory leak in our ircd software which means we'll need to restart several ircds over the next few days. We're going to stagger it to reduce disruption, and the first round will be happening very shortly. Affected users for now will be about 1300. Apologies for the inconvenience!"
14:28:52 <ais523> second possibility: someone noticed my initial confusion
14:28:58 <ais523> and everyone decided to play along
14:29:04 <ais523> the people in my office could by seeing my screen
14:29:11 <ais523> and the people on IRC could be sending queries back and forth
14:29:24 <ais523> third possibility: both the clock tower and the clock in the lecture room are wrong
14:29:28 <ais523> and the lecture actually started at 1
14:29:41 <FireFly> I think you should go with #1
14:29:45 <ais523> but in a way which mislead me into thinking it started at 2
14:30:06 <ais523> (the time has been moved to 1 for next week...)
14:30:38 <fizzie> #2 is appropriately paranoid.
14:32:41 <ais523> well, Wikipedia says it's 13:30 UTC or thereabouts, and the page I checked that on hasn't been changed since August
14:32:55 <ais523> so I conclude that it is indeed about half past 2 my time
14:33:23 <ais523> ah, theory that actually makes sense
14:33:30 <ais523> I believed that the lecture was at 2
14:33:35 <ais523> I arrived in good time, over an hour
14:33:43 <ais523> but when I got there I saw that I only had about 10 minutes left
14:33:48 <ais523> the lecture was actually at 1 and I misremembered
14:34:02 <ais523> and I only looked at the clock's minute hand as I was in a hurry
14:34:04 <oerjan> ais523: no no, believing things that are wrong doesn't make sense, just ask ehird
14:34:23 <ais523> as the lecture was actually starting at the time, this confirmed my belief that it was in fact 2pm
14:35:17 <ais523> they did change the room the lecture was in, maybe they changed the time at the same time and I didn't notice
14:36:16 <oerjan> so do you usually arrive an hour in advance? maybe your subconscious new anyhow >:)
14:41:38 <oerjan> AnMaster: square root of minus garfield o_O
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14:42:54 <FireFly> Ouch, we don't want no complex garfields
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14:43:29 <ais523> not sure why I was too lazy to quit over there and used NickServ instead...
14:44:12 <oerjan> ais523: i've tried being lazy that way with irssi, doesn't work...
14:44:32 <oerjan> because irssi reconnects
14:44:47 <ais523> that's awful manners, reconnecting if you're killed or kicked
14:45:07 <ais523> kicking's kind-of pointless if people don't get the hint...
14:45:35 <oerjan> that's a nick collision though, irssi may not really know about them...
14:45:57 <ais523> if you get nick-collided while online, it means you're either using your own nick and you did that deliberately (and so don't want a reconnection)
14:46:12 <ais523> or you're using someone else's nick and you should really get the hint that they don't want you to use it
14:46:13 <oerjan> yes, but irssi has an alternative nick
14:46:39 <fizzie> Or your using your own nick and someone else has tried to steal it.
14:47:16 <ais523> they'd need to know your NickServ password to do that
14:47:21 <ais523> in which case, the correct solution isn't to log on again
14:47:22 <fizzie> In service-less networks, that is.
14:47:41 <oerjan> ais523: oh, but the issue here is that if it was a _real_ nick collision then you wouldn't be able to reconnect because the other nick would still be there...
14:47:43 <ais523> but logging on again would simply not work in that situation
14:47:53 <ais523> I'm talking about ghosting here
14:48:12 <oerjan> but since freenode's ghosting doesn't do that, irssi doesn't know what is happening
14:48:20 <ais523> I think we've concluded, that in the only situations in which reconnecting after a nick collision actually works, you don't want to do it
14:48:53 <oerjan> not quite. there is also the issue of moving across netsplits
14:49:21 <ais523> if you're moving deliberately, your nick isn't on the other side of the netsplit
14:49:30 <ais523> you'd have to maintain two connections to be on /both/ sides of the netsplit
14:49:42 <ais523> and you wouldn't want both of them to autoconnect after that or there'd be two of you
14:50:14 <fizzie> On IRCnet, earlier, the behaviour I remember when netsplit ends and a nick collision is found is to kill both sides. In which case you'd want to reconnect pretty fast to actually get your own nick back.
14:50:34 <fizzie> Nowadays it just forcibly renames both participants, I think.
14:52:08 <ais523> ok, I see the scenario you're talking about now
14:52:11 <ais523> you're on one side of a netsplit
14:52:17 <ais523> someone who wants to steal your nick joins the other side
14:52:21 <ais523> then the netsplit ends
14:52:55 <fizzie> Yes. That's how nick- and channel-stealing used to be done. (The channel stealing by joining the channel on some server where it was empty, which made you gain ops there.)
14:54:02 <fizzie> In any case, isn't the nick-collision kill is just your regular free-format "whoops, you died" error message? I'm not very sure there's some easily distinguishable and standardized "and don't come back" marker there.
14:56:03 <fizzie> Quite a lot of people do have "auto-rejoin when kicked out of a channel" on, though, and even I can't really figure out a justification for that.
14:57:56 <ais523> well, the trick is clearly to join the channel simultaneously at 1pm and 2pm
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16:55:18 <ehird> good morning america
16:55:28 <ehird> good morning october
16:56:42 <ehird> 05:59:37 <ais523> ehird will probably think I'm crazy but: I have a massively powerful desktop computer here, but I'm using it just to talk on IRC while my laptop does a fsck
16:56:48 <puzzlet_> mid-autumn season here in korea
16:56:51 <ehird> yes, funnily enough most people with good computers don't always max it out :)
16:56:54 <ehird> 06:11:37 <ais523> anyway, it seems to be a Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q8200 @ 2.33GHz
16:57:07 <ehird> more powerful than I have; I have a two-core instead of 4 and it's only 2.16GHz
16:57:13 <puzzlet_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Autumn_Festival
16:57:16 <ehird> also, probably an earlier generation; this is from the first batch of Core 2s
16:57:22 <ais523> it manages to feel like a corporate computer though
16:57:28 <ais523> and therefore unperformant no matter how powerful it is
16:57:31 <ehird> probably because you can't mess with it?
16:57:35 <ais523> I know it takes several minutes to boot into either Win7 or CentOS
16:57:49 <ehird> yes, that's very wrong
16:58:26 <ehird> ais523: oh, it doesn't even have 2GiB of RAM?
16:58:30 <ehird> well, let's say 2GiB :P
16:58:39 <ais523> somewhere between 2GB and 2GiB
16:58:46 <ehird> ais523: 2GiB is ridiculously little for a quad-core; I have 2.5GiB on this dual-core and it's sometimes limiting
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16:59:01 <ehird> 4GiB would be the minimum I'd put in a quad-core...
16:59:04 <ais523> I think the delay on booting is due to network stuff, though
16:59:17 <ehird> and whatever they did to it...
16:59:40 <ehird> 06:20:15 <ais523> maybe it has integrated graphics or something stupid like that
16:59:45 <ehird> that's not really stupid
16:59:56 <ehird> i thought you liked using the minimum spec computers you can?
17:00:02 <ehird> if you're not doing graphics work or gaming, ...
17:00:06 <ais523> it is in a computer science department, because there's a nonzero chance the people here will want to do weird things with the GPU
17:00:22 <ehird> however, the intel drivers for linux are very stable, albeit very slow at the moment
17:00:25 <ehird> and open source to boot
17:00:34 <ehird> so that's probably a plus for you
17:01:00 <nooga> but they get slower and slower
17:01:05 <ehird> uh, I've not heard of that
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17:01:20 <nooga> this whole compiz used to work normally
17:01:28 <ehird> also, once the kernel switches to the new graphics stack they should be quite fast
17:01:29 <ehird> 06:22:40 <ais523> this one will probably come in useful for things like placing&routing (that is, taking a schematic and trying to lay it out in physical space)
17:01:30 <nooga> at the moment it's a slideshow
17:01:32 <ehird> not with 2GiB of ram!
17:01:36 <ehird> nooga: compiz is a piece of shit
17:02:13 <ehird> 99% annoying flash for the sake of it, mostly ripped off from other OSs, and very very very unstable and slow
17:02:33 <nooga> but there are contraptions that fake OSX goodies
17:02:39 <ehird> I just turned on compositing in metacity; the window shadows sooth my soul a bit, I guess.
17:02:43 <nooga> like expo or that window magic
17:02:48 <ehird> i'd call them more baddies :)
17:03:04 <ehird> honestly, I still think the taskbar is the best wnidow switcher yet invented
17:03:16 <nooga> using taskbar is pain for me ;[
17:03:31 <nooga> i got used to this fast switching
17:03:35 <ehird> expose isn't much better if you're browsing mostly text web pages
17:03:45 <ehird> "oh, I want this nondescript wall of text."
17:05:03 <ehird> 06:23:59 <ais523> % date \ Thu Oct 1 14:23:47 BST 2009
17:05:03 <ehird> 06:24:04 <ais523> also, what's with that prompt?
17:05:10 <ehird> it could be zsh! it could be zsh!
17:05:11 <ehird> 06:24:16 <ais523> % echo $SHELL \ /bham/bin/tcsh
17:05:11 <ehird> 06:24:17 <ais523> AARGH
17:05:13 <ehird> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
17:05:21 <ais523> bash is on there, just not default
17:05:30 <ais523> also, weird place for binaries
17:05:40 <ehird> 06:25:23 <ais523> help, I've lost an hour somehow
17:05:40 <ehird> 06:25:28 <ais523> it was 2 pm here over an hour ago
17:05:49 <ehird> make your computer not auto-DST
17:05:55 <ehird> and I'll remind you about it the next time it gives extra hours
17:05:59 <ais523> read on, and you'll see what happened
17:05:59 <ehird> and you'll get that extra hour back
17:06:04 <ehird> ais523: nono, I'm trying to remedy the lost hour
17:06:25 <ais523> actually, I meant that I'd gained an hour
17:07:13 <ehird> "Hi all, unfortunately one of our former developers has left behind a memory leak in our ircd software"
17:07:17 <nooga> they release dumbuntu 9.10 final beta today :F
17:07:17 <ehird> in other news, freenode are incompetent
17:07:45 <ehird> nooga: dumbmostusableoperatingsystemenvironmentontheplanetcurrentlyexistinganditsalsoalmostentirelyfoss 9.10 beta
17:07:53 <ehird> i can make portmanteaus too
17:08:50 <ehird> there are different genders of iphone?
17:09:44 <ehird> distros freezing every package before release? moar like FOSSil amirite
17:11:24 <nooga> tbh i don't give a shit if something is foss or not
17:11:37 <nooga> i like if something works :D
17:12:10 <ais523> I don't use FOSS as the be-all and end-all of things, but I consider being open source to be considerably enhanced functionality as I really enjoy messing around with code
17:12:17 <coppro> ehird: found the sound problem. Suspend issues
17:12:20 <ehird> in FOSS, there are more members of the angry mob, and apple can't pull another one of its fucking "LET'S MAKE THINGS LESS CONSISTENT!!!" moves because everyone else says "fuck. no."
17:12:40 <ais523> and it's very rare to find a licence that is both open source, and legally lets me make and share changes, but yet is non-free
17:12:56 <ais523> and code under such a licence probably wouldn't do very well anyway
17:13:13 <ehird> I'd prefer an all-BSD-or-more-lenient-license system, but most of the useful FOSS is GPL'd :P
17:13:34 <ehird> ...and the BSDs still use a bunch of GPL code, plus I can't deal with bullshit like the ports system
17:13:38 <coppro> I'd like a compromise, but I know such a thing isn't legally feasible
17:13:47 <nooga> it's like building a higher idea aroud a hammer or shovel
17:13:50 * coppro knows software like that - the actual software is free, but the datasets are not
17:14:08 <ehird> what on earth is the point of a compromise?
17:14:18 <ehird> foss works fine on its own without any restricted bullshit
17:14:39 <coppro> like, GPL except it doesn't lock you in to the GPL but only to licenses with the same general idea
17:14:57 <ehird> all the viral licenses without many differences are much the same
17:15:22 <nooga> make everything a beerware
17:15:29 <ais523> some sort of weak copyleft licence would be weird and interesting
17:15:33 <ais523> I'm not sure if it would be possible
17:15:45 <ais523> well, I mean stronger than weak copyleft
17:15:49 <ais523> but weaker than strong copyleft
17:15:51 <ehird> "beerware: because I want to give you tools that help you make this program worse"
17:16:03 <coppro> I don't think it would be possible
17:16:18 <ehird> it wouldn't be gpl-compatible
17:16:23 <ehird> the gpl doesn't have such a twisted-viral clause
17:16:35 <coppro> but I find the GPL and similar license to be stronger than I like, and BSD-likes to be weaker than I like
17:16:36 <ehird> all the compatible licenses would be pretty much rewordings
17:16:43 <ehird> what's wrong with BSD
17:17:03 <ais523> ehird: you can make arbitrary licences, even commercial ones, GPL-compatible by adding a clause allowing derivative works to be licenced under the GPL
17:17:08 <coppro> it's too weak; I do not want to be giving my code away free to Apple
17:17:32 <ehird> coppro: that's only because you're an idiot with some sort of irrational hate of apple because steve jobs killed your dog or something
17:17:35 <coppro> at the very least, I prefer a license with an attribution clause
17:17:42 <ehird> uh, BSD has an attribution clause
17:17:49 <ehird> have you actually........ read it
17:18:25 <coppro> but it's not strong enough for me
17:18:36 <ais523> you get commercial software with attributions in the credits because there's BSD stuff in it
17:19:01 <ehird> well, knowing the motivations for such a license I'll avoid using or modifying any of your code, I guess
17:19:09 <ehird> at least most people using the GPL just want to "spread the love"
17:19:12 <ehird> nooga: identical to BSD2
17:19:18 <ehird> which is identical to BSD3 minus a redundant clause
17:20:24 <ehird> 06:44:47 <ais523> that's awful manners, reconnecting if you're killed or kicked
17:20:25 <ehird> 06:45:07 <ais523> kicking's kind-of pointless if people don't get the hint...
17:20:26 <ehird> kicking IS pointlses
17:20:33 <ehird> you could just say "stop that"
17:20:40 <ehird> it has as much effect and is less stupi
17:20:43 <coppro> but people listen to kicks
17:20:44 <ais523> given that I don't rejoin if I'm kicked
17:20:52 <ehird> <ehird> you could just say "stop that"
17:20:54 <ais523> unless it was obviously done as a joke
17:20:54 <ehird> <ehird> it has as much effect and is less stupi
17:21:18 <ehird> presumably, you're socially functioning enough to be able to be told whatever a kick tells you as words
17:21:23 <ehird> kicks are only useful in a kickban
17:22:00 <ais523> I've seen people kick idlers to stop them idling
17:22:02 <coppro> this ranks among the top most stupidest things I've ever heard ehird utter
17:22:14 <ais523> well, to stop them getting the things said in there for their privlogs
17:22:16 <ehird> i'm so amazingly offended coppro
17:22:17 <ais523> which strikes me as ridiculous
17:22:25 <ehird> i care deeply about what you think about me
17:22:31 <ehird> or, less sarcastically, stfu
17:22:37 <ais523> I suppose, the difference is a person listens to a statement, and their client to kicks
17:22:44 <ais523> so a kick is basically CTCP STOPTHAT
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18:25:44 <ehird> someone should make a keyboard that looks like the xc spectrum
18:29:23 <fizzie> You could buy a Speccy from eBay, and then it's just a matter of a bit of electronics to get it act as a keyboard.
18:29:55 <ehird> it only has four non-alphanumeric keys.
18:30:08 <ehird> enter, "caps shift" (I assume capslock), symbol shift and break space.
18:30:31 <ehird> you need space and enter, you need shift, so you only have one modifier key: caps shift (which is admittedly in a good position; a big key right to the left of Z)
18:30:47 <ehird> also, the space is at the far-right of the bottom row, which is strange. and the shift just before that, and it's only as big as aletter
18:30:52 <ehird> so, the actual layout, not so much
18:31:08 <ehird> also, somethiing not rubber. but it's so cute!
18:31:29 <fizzie> You can replace the caps-shift key with something pressure-sensitive, and use that for all the conventional modifier keys, depending on how hard you press on it.
18:31:31 <ehird> http://www.theoldcomputer.com/Libarary%27s/Emulation/Spectrum/zxspectrum_48k.jpg, http://www.playretro.co.uk/hardware/sinclair_zx_spectrum.jpg
18:31:39 <ehird> it looks just like those tiny apple keyboards
18:31:45 <ehird> and you could fit batteries in the top part
18:32:04 <ehird> http://www.gadgaard.org/gadget_past/sinclair_zx-spectrum_hr_1s.jpg it's also super-thin
18:32:14 <fizzie> I'd say something disparaging about the "space in the corner" thing, but the three-line N900 keyboard is probably almost worse.
18:32:18 <ehird> in fact it just looks like apple made a netbook. except more colourful
18:32:31 <ehird> and, uh, with a wireless screen I guess
18:32:59 <ehird> fizzie: you have an n900?
18:33:21 <fizzie> No, I've just been looking at the reviews. :p
18:33:25 <fizzie> And the rainbow colors aren't that far from the rainbow Apple logo.
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18:33:44 <ehird> yes, that's what i was thinking
18:33:46 <fizzie> And I played with one a bit in the Nokia "flagship store" in Helsinki.
18:34:01 <ehird> anyway, it's oh so tiny.
18:34:10 <ehird> actually, you know what?
18:34:17 <ehird> I should buy a speccy and make it into a laptop
18:34:59 <ehird> make a black bottom box thing with the connectors and a converter to use an LCD, stick it to the bottom of the spectrum, add an on/off switch to it and connect it to a display with minimal frame (painted black if necessary)
18:35:18 <ehird> mod the speccy case to have hinge ability, if needed modify the screen to do the same
18:35:32 <fizzie> It is http://www.product-reviews.net/tag/zx-spectrum-48k/
18:36:02 <ehird> fuck you, you destroy my dreams :(
18:36:07 <ehird> why can't you leave me in peace :(
18:36:14 <ehird> Anyway, it looks ugly.
18:36:16 <ehird> Not sleek in the slightest.
18:36:23 <ehird> built using the Spectrum as a case and keyboard, then the Libretto for innards and the screen. The laptop runs Linux, has a 2-hour battery life and there is plans to emulate some ZX Spectrum games soon.
18:36:29 <ehird> fizzie: NOT A SPECTRUM >:|
18:36:44 <ehird> They just ripped open the ZX and put the laptop inside, plus the keyboard stuff.
18:36:57 <ehird> Besides, that screen looks suspiciously widescreen, so it wouldn't even be suitable for ZXy stuff. :P
18:37:01 <fizzie> I was just looking for the "zx spectrum" image search results, actually, not *only* trying to destroy your dreams.
18:37:24 * ehird looks up the dimensions of the speccy
18:37:26 <Deewiant> My first computer was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ZX_Spectrum%2B.jpg
18:37:37 <ehird> that keyboard looks even worse than the rubber!
18:37:45 <ehird> well, depending on what kind of keys they are
18:37:57 <ehird> hmm, if they're not rubber it's probably better
18:38:00 <ehird> and might be better anyway, since they're bigger
18:38:11 <Deewiant> "injection-moulded keyboard" sez http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZX_Spectrum
18:38:34 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's not really so cute, though.
18:38:39 <Deewiant> The feel of the keys is quite unlike any other keyboard I've ever tried
18:38:47 <ehird> 's it ... sort of like
18:38:55 <ehird> But indeed, not cute.
18:39:35 <ehird> SIZE / WEIGHT 23 x 14,4 x 3 cm / 550g
18:39:40 <ehird> 550g; that's nice and light.
18:40:23 <fizzie> There's another "just keep the case, stick a computer inside" mod at http://programbytes48k.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/un-zx-spectrum-convertido-en-un-mini-pc-con-linux/ but at least that lets you do some eyeball size-comparisons between the speccy and "normal" hardware.
18:40:29 <Deewiant> IIRC they feel kinda mushy but still fairly resistant
18:40:45 <ehird> Anyway, 23 wide and 14.4 high. Too lazy to work out the aspect ratio of the 256x192 screen (did it even have square pixels?) but I'm sure there's a screen with appropriate specs.
18:40:59 <Deewiant> Can't really come up with anything to compare to :-/
18:41:27 <fizzie> 256:192 is the traditional 4:3, though I have no clue about Spectrum's pixel shape.
18:41:43 <ehird> Game Platforms: Sinclair ZX Spectrum
18:41:43 <ehird> The Sinclair ZX Spectrum was introduced in the early 80s. ... like the Apple ][ or the BBC had more pixels), and most of all, it had square pixels! ...
18:42:00 <lament> the pixels were shaped like this: ✡
18:42:03 <ehird> The issue is finding a display that's a multiple of 256x192
18:42:17 <ehird> Oh, 1024x768 works
18:42:26 <ehird> Just make the pixels into 4x4 squares
18:42:32 <ehird> So that could be crisp.
18:42:50 <ehird> 512x384 is x2; isn't that the Macintosh's resolution?
18:43:05 <fizzie> ehird: Without extensive messing-around, it's going to be horribly blurry anyway, since the display output of the spectrum is through a RF modulator, to generate a TV signal.
18:43:27 <ehird> fizzie: Yes, but the blurriness is what it'd look like on a CRT, no?
18:43:31 <ehird> At least a reasonable approximation.
18:43:48 <fizzie> I guess, but I'm not sure you're going to have to worry so much about getting the native display resolution "correct".
18:44:02 <ehird> Just saying that 1024x768 is a particular good sizer.
18:44:47 <ehird> The screen size would be for 4:3 23cm wide would be 23cm wide, 17.25cm high, right?
18:44:56 <ehird> Someone work out the diagonal. :P
18:45:36 <ehird> (Hmm; the speccy is 14.4cm deep, so you'd have 2.85cm you could stick on to store stuff.)
18:45:42 <Deewiant> Don't we have bots here that can calculate that?
18:45:45 <fizzie> 11.3" diagonal, about.
18:45:50 <ehird> (Drive, batteries, etc.)
18:46:09 <ehird> fizzie: That's a nice enough diagonal size.
18:46:29 <fizzie> sqrt(23^2+17.25^2)/2.54
18:46:29 <fizzie> 11.31889763779527559055
18:46:29 <ehird> Hmm, I wonder if you can get homebrew drives; it plugged into a tape recorder thing.
18:46:35 <ehird> I know they have them for the C64.
18:46:44 <ehird> Would use a USB pendrive or that sort of internals; nice and small.
18:46:48 <nooga> prove that x*x >= 0 where x<-R
18:47:05 <ehird> You could get quite a good battery life out of this; it can't use so much power.
18:47:28 <ehird> And all you need is the PSU, batteries, a drive and a TV->LCD converter in the extra depth part that the screen plugs into.
18:48:33 <fizzie> If you feel like writing the software yourself, you could connect the drive to the expansion bus.
18:48:49 <ehird> Surely you could emulate a tape drive?
18:48:52 <ehird> It's just audio, after all.
18:49:08 <fizzie> There's software to generate the necessary sounds, yes.
18:49:38 <ehird> And digitalise the sounds and write to disk, presumably; then you wouldn't need the expansion bus, just whatever ports you plugged the tape into.
18:50:33 <ehird> Step 1. Go into oh-so-hip coffee shop. Step 2. Start up your Speccytop. Step 3. Play a game. Step 4. Program some trivial BASIC. (For steps 3 and 4, make sure people have a chance of seeing you.) Step 5. Run a program that produces a few beeps, and draws a huge "BATTERY LOW" on the screen. Step 6. Plug it in. (Make sure you sat down near a power outlet when entering.) Step 7. More games. Step 8. Unplug it, walk out.
18:50:44 <ehird> (Step 9 is "post it on YouTube".)
18:50:45 <Warrigal> If x > 0, then x*x > x*0, so x*x > 0. If x = 0, then x*x >= 0. If x < 0, then (-x) > 0, so (-x)*(-x) > 0, so x*x > 0.
18:51:44 <nooga> what axioms did you use?
18:53:25 <fizzie> ehird: Of course since it's 2009 and all, you could use a nice 13" 1024x768 touchscreen as the display, and make the touch information available through the expansion bus (it's not like it makes sense to leave it completely unused, after all).
18:53:46 <ehird> But then you can't see the cute dinky ZX.
18:54:09 <ehird> Besides, it looks less retro. Also, even rubber keys are more tactile than touchscreens. :P
18:54:28 <ehird> fizzie: Besides, 1024x768? But then we'd have to have black borders around it to fit the keyboard below.
18:54:37 <fizzie> Oh, the touch could just be used by some few custom programs that benefit from it.
18:54:43 <ehird> (Are there even 4:3 touchscreens that big?)
18:54:48 <ehird> fizzie: Ah. Why 13" then?
18:55:06 <fizzie> Oh, 11" I mean. Whoops.
18:55:07 <ehird> (I'm not sure we'll get a ZX to browse the web or anything; this isn't the Contiki-lovin' C64.)
18:56:33 <ehird> Although that would be nice.
18:56:49 <ehird> fizzie: That expansion bus - it could be plugged into a modem, yah?
18:56:57 <ehird> I'm sure IRC, at least, is in the Speccy's abilities...
18:57:12 <ehird> (Modem being a 3G stick thing, naturally.)
18:57:28 <ehird> (With necessary converter.)
18:57:32 <fizzie> Sure, one of the actual commercial blobs sold to plug in there has a RS232 serial port.
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18:58:10 <ehird> Sweet; I'm sure there's a 3G-stick-to-Ethernet thing, so that'd be uber-trivial.
18:58:16 <ehird> Although the software would be a bit of a bitch.
18:58:26 <ehird> Probably best to use a teeny tiny microcontroller to do it.
19:12:22 <ehird> http://www.theonion.com/content/news/michael_vick_fails_to_inspire_team?utm_source=a-section x_x
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19:46:59 <Ilari> Plug modem into ZX, then connect the phone line (somehow) to PC sound input/output. Then run software on PC which acts like a modem and forwards data to/from TUN device... Then configure PC to route packets to TUN device. :->
19:48:11 <Ilari> The modulation and demodulation of modem signaling at the rates those modems have probably won't be heavy task...
19:48:23 <ehird> Yees, well, I think not depending on a computer is a good task.
19:48:31 <ehird> Not task, feature.
19:49:44 <Ilari> If you want to, emulate PPP on the PC and let to give modem dial command on ZX. Then it just depends on PPP.
19:50:11 <ehird> Well, I gather it'll be an ethernet cable going into the bus.
19:50:20 <ehird> And the "modem" will be a 3G mobile internet USB stick; not really very modem-y.
19:51:00 <Ilari> How you plan to connect USB device to ZX? Some microcontroller?
19:51:25 <Ilari> ehird: And additionally, since 3G stick is USB gadget, you need USB host controller.
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19:52:08 <ehird> Ilari: There apparently was sold an RS232<->ZX expansion bus thingy, so it should be a simple matter of using a microcontroller to connect the 3G stick and then get it talking Ethernet.
19:52:36 <ehird> Then it goes into the ZX, which will run the slowest networking stack ever.
19:53:02 <Ilari> AFAIK, most of the USB microcontroller stuff is USB gadget side, not USB host controllers.
19:53:30 <ehird> Most FPGA stuff has USB ports; I assume, then, that there are a bunch of tiny microcontroller boards with USB ports.
19:53:35 <ehird> See, for example: gumstix, BeagleBoard.
19:54:07 <ehird> BeagleBoard is 3x3" is too big; ais523 says the gumstix are a bit fragile, i.e. not too sturdily built, but they're really tiny (smaller than a pack of gum) so they'd fit nicely.
19:54:34 <Ilari> One question is: Are those USB ports host ports or gadget ports?
19:54:38 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Gumstix_oconnor.JPG; the expansion board to the right has a USB port, I think.
19:54:53 <ehird> Ilari: Really have no clue. That right-side one looks complicated enough to be the more powerful of those, though.
19:55:50 <fizzie> Those programmable thingsies do tend to support host mode, since it's really pretty much the point that you can plug USB devices into them.
19:56:28 <ehird> Ah, is the gadget mode just to plug the microcontroller into something and have it act as a USB device?
19:57:10 <fizzie> Incidentally, Nokia's previous tablets (N810 and whatever they were) also support host mode (so you can plug in, say, a keyboard) but the N900 at least officially doesn't. :/
19:57:42 <ehird> Hmm, a lot of Spectrum games use a joystick, don't they?
19:58:42 <fizzie> I don't really know about 3G modem stick programming; they implement the USB "CDC" class, but I think they usually speak PPP over whatever is there to do the actual IP traffic.
19:59:39 <fizzie> Where do you have Ethernet in all this?
20:00:29 <ehird> Oh, crap, I thought RS232 was that standard for Ethernet.
20:00:45 <ehird> RJ45 in fact, or rather 8P8C.
20:01:03 <ehird> fizzie: Well, it's easy enough to do PPPoSerial, wouldn't it be?
20:01:43 <fizzie> Well, yes. You just have to convert from serial to the USB serial stuff. (Or directly from whatever you want to do over the extension bus into USB serial transfers.)
20:02:35 <fizzie> Strange, this 3G stick I have shows up as two serial ports.
20:02:46 <fizzie> option 1-5:1.0: GSM modem (1-port) converter detected
20:02:46 <fizzie> usb 1-5: GSM modem (1-port) converter now attached to ttyUSB0
20:02:46 <fizzie> option 1-5:1.1: GSM modem (1-port) converter detected
20:02:46 <fizzie> usb 1-5: GSM modem (1-port) converter now attached to ttyUSB1
20:04:58 <ehird> So, now taking bets as to what sort of battery life it'll get.
20:05:30 <ehird> After all, it's underpowered, but we didn't really have as much extremely-low-power-usage tech then.
20:06:44 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:08:16 <fizzie> Given that you need to do something for the "disk drive" too, you might pick one of those SoC-style chips; you could connect a regular USB-interfaced flash drive and the USB 3G stick into the USB interface on it, and have the CPU part do both the spectrum tape drive emulation (those things generally have the necessary A/D and D/A converters to do audio) as well as whatever custom protocol you need over the extension bus (just wire some GPIO pins to it).
20:08:30 <ehird> Ha, I was about to say something about the disk.
20:09:01 <ehird> Also, no protocol required, I think; just do something like "read (large number)-fileno".
20:09:13 <ehird> And then "read (large number)" is a program that prints out filename<->number mappings or something.
20:09:26 <ehird> Admittedly it might be more convenient to do it over the bus.
20:10:14 <ehird> fizzie: it's nothing more complex than converting bits to audio and vice versa, isn't it
20:10:38 <fizzie> If you store the spectrum tape images in a suitably "raw" format, I guess it's pretty simple.
20:11:05 <ehird> The ZX *did* have a joystick, right?
20:11:15 <ehird> That could be useful for gopher-browsing (I'm sure it can handle *that*)
20:11:34 <ehird> Or, well, not really, considering the list-of-links format. Still.
20:11:54 <fizzie> I'm not very familiar with the device, but the WP page mentions a joystick interface as one of the things you could plug in the extension bus.
20:12:28 <fizzie> I think the connectors on that thing are limited to audio-in/audio-out (for the tape), the TV-compatible video out, and then the extension bus for everything else.
20:12:43 <ehird> I'm sure some games used a joystick.
20:12:52 <ehird> Anyway, could do that as a trackball type thing.
20:12:55 <fizzie> "The ZX Interface 1 add-on module included 8 KB of ROM, an RS-232 serial port, a proprietary LAN interface (called ZX Net), and an interface for the connection of up to eight ZX Microdrives – somewhat unreliable but speedy tape-loop cartridge storage devices released in July 1983."
20:13:14 <fizzie> "ZX Net" sounds so very popular.
20:13:15 <ehird> wrt the disk drive, it'd clearly be far more retro if we used real tapes.
20:13:48 <fizzie> Well, you can carry an old WalkMan around to go with your Port-a-Spectrum.
20:14:07 -!- impomatic has joined.
20:14:34 <ehird> we're discussing making the ZX Spectrum into a laptop.
20:14:42 <ehird> fizzie: oh, with the tape drive included, of course
20:15:19 <fizzie> Oh, I don't know; in one sense it would be somehow inherently funny to have a tied-to-it-with-a-cable add-on like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SONY_WM-D6C.jpg
20:15:21 <ehird> in the bit near the screen where the extra stuff is, a horizontal (i.e. not sticking up) tape slot, and some buttons depthwards (i.e., going further to the screen, to save space)
20:15:27 <fizzie> It even says "professional" there.
20:15:38 <impomatic> Hmmm... didn't someone make a speccy laptop in the 90's?
20:16:07 <ehird> Dunno. Two people have ripped out the innards and put a PC in there; one person did it to a laptop to have a screen and such.
20:16:31 <ehird> But I don't know of any actual Spectrum laptops. Besides, we're adding 3G internet and a USB disk-based tape drive to this thing.
20:16:53 <ehird> Plus an 11" 1024x768 screen! Admittedly only displaying 256x192.
20:17:10 <fizzie> There is an approximate metric buttload of spectrum clones, it does not sound completely unlikely that someone has made a portable model too.
20:17:11 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
20:17:46 <ehird> It only counts if it retains the same general form factor of the original speccy, imo. :P
20:17:53 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:18:38 <impomatic> I have a Sam Coupe, and a Speccy +3
20:19:08 <Sgeo_> Why can't I just connect my computer directly to the cable modem?
20:19:21 <fizzie> The +3 makes it sound like a roguelike/RPG weapon.
20:19:36 <ehird> Sgeo_: Because then you'd have to do routing in software.
20:19:53 <Sgeo_> ehird, I don't give two **** about the other computers on the network
20:20:08 <ehird> that's not what routing is
20:20:32 <ehird> I don't understand why all the speccies after the first were so ugly.
20:20:50 <ehird> I mean, http://www.theoldcomputer.com/Libarary%27s/Emulation/Spectrum/zxspectrum_48k.jpg vs http://www.old-computers.com/MUSEUM/photos/sinclair_zx-spectrum-p3_1.jpg
20:21:15 <fizzie> Er, generally the cable modems I've seen have supported a reasonably "direct" USB connection. (Though I don't know whether they pretend to be a standard USB Ethernet device, or just include some custom drivers.)
20:22:04 <ehird> Cable modems generally plug into routers. :P
20:22:24 <ehird> I don't actually have cable.
20:23:03 <impomatic> I'd prefer a Jupiter Ace laptop. :-)
20:23:27 <impomatic> The spectrum had 3" or 3.5" disk drives. It's be handy to include those on the portable.
20:23:28 <fizzie> The modems rented by the local cable TV company here -- well, some models, at least -- do support connecting over USB; not sure how widespread that is. (And it's also really buggy; they do recommend doing it over Ethernet if the computer in question has a network interface.)
20:24:39 <ehird> impomatic: But it already has a wonderful USB-stick-based solid state drive thingy!
20:24:50 <ehird> You could even attempt to play a song you put on it. :P
20:24:54 <ehird> (It'll emulate the tape drive.)
20:25:15 <ehird> Well, I'm not sure the speccy actually has audio.
20:25:34 <ehird> You could decode the wav and record it to the tape as audio; that basically counts as playing.
20:25:40 <ehird> Of course it'd just be saved as garbage.
20:26:32 <ehird> I guess the beeper will have to be neutered and redirected to the microcontroller so it can have a headphone slot.
20:26:41 <ehird> Falling back to the beeper, of course.
20:26:45 <ehird> Or if that's too hard, a mini speaker.
20:30:22 <ehird> Someone should port Maniac Mansion to the speccy. :P
20:31:40 <ehird> http://twitter.com/MSWindows Oh gawd.
20:33:40 <ehird> Anyway, I'm pretty sure the speccy has enough power to talk PPP over serial, get TCP/IP working, get DNS working, connect to Freenode and chat on IRC.
20:35:17 <fizzie> Hmph, someone's broken the udev on my desktop. It has / on /dev/md0, and /dev/md0 gets auto-assembled just fine, but udev doesn't feel like making the /dev/disk/by-uuid/xxx link, so since the grub config uses (by default) the "root=UUID=xxx" form, it doesn't find the root fs to mount.
20:36:03 <ehird> (Anyone agree that the speccy could do that?
20:37:40 <fizzie> Sure, it sounds perfectly reasonable. Though I wouldn't expect too high data transfer rates.
20:37:59 * Sgeo_ goes to watch The Wall
20:38:04 <impomatic> There's a 25MHz Z80 upgrade available for the Speccy, and a 4MB memory board
20:38:53 <ehird> fizzie: IRC would work fine at 1KiB/s.
20:38:58 <ehird> That's two full-length IRC lines.
20:39:14 <ehird> Heck, even 512B/s; full-length lines aren't so common.
20:39:24 <ehird> But not less, for a semi-popular channel.
20:39:44 <ehird> Because of the screen res it'd be best for places like here, and would work fine with ~300B/s.
20:39:50 <impomatic> If you want a portable spectrum, you could just use ZXDS for the Nintendo DS. :-)
20:39:55 <ehird> Who needs more than 48KiB of RAM?
20:40:12 <ehird> Also, the actual Speccy is so cute. And the DS is so not retro. :P Also, rael keyboard.
20:41:20 <ehird> The C64 with 64KiB can run a full graphical multitasking OS with a web browser (Contiki), and it only has a 1.02MHz 6510 (or 0.985MHz in PAL regions), so I'm sure a Z80 at 3.5MHz with 48KiB of RAM can handle it.
20:47:22 <ehird> The C64 has rather more graphical prowess, though.
20:48:22 <fizzie> Less portable form-factor, since I guess you'd want to have exactly the original, iconic shape.
20:48:53 <ehird> Oh, there's plenty of C64 laptops.
20:49:00 <ehird> The ZX is far cuter.
20:49:09 <fizzie> Yes, it's more nettop-like.
20:49:10 <ehird> And, well, more of an underdog.
20:49:58 <ehird> fizzie: don't you mean netbook?
20:50:09 <ehird> Nettop is like that silly Linutop thing.
20:50:20 <fizzie> I don't even know the modern lingo.
20:50:35 <fizzie> I guess I have known that distinction.
20:50:50 <ehird> Well, it'll certainly be a nettop, but I doubt that includes HTML over HTTP.
20:50:54 <ehird> Well, HTTP is fine; HTML less so.
20:51:01 <ehird> Still, it can probably render simple stuff.
20:51:18 <ehird> Read http://robotwisdom.com/ on your ZX Spectrum today!
20:52:17 <ehird> Huh, robot wisdom is dead?
20:52:21 <ehird> last updated 2006.
20:52:45 <fizzie> You could make a portable Altair 8800, but that'd just be strange. (I guess in that particular case you'd just run an emulator on a DS or something.)
20:52:58 <ehird> Flippin' switches 'n shit.
20:53:26 <fizzie> I'm sure it'd attract some attention in a cafe.
20:53:56 <ehird> "Is that a bomb? POLICE! POLICE! HE'S GOT A BOMB! AAAAAAAA!"
20:54:08 <ehird> "No, no, it's an Altair-" "-an Altair bomb, riiight. *taze*"
20:54:16 <ehird> Next day it's on reddit!
20:54:23 <impomatic> There's an Esoteric language for the DS :-) Someone implemented OISC
20:55:29 <ehird> Ah - "# Robot Wisdom Weblog, since Oct06 continued as part of the Robot Wisdom auxiliary, since Aug09 continued as part of one-bit RWx-auxiliary blog"
20:55:51 <ehird> The "one-bit" thing seems to be a shared google reader items that looks like a link blog.
20:55:53 <ehird> http://www.google.com/reader/shared/14569541748422553908
20:56:30 <ehird> That's rather less simple HTML-wise.
20:58:53 <ehird> http://c64vsspectrum.com/ Can't we all just get along?
20:59:30 <ehird> Totally no fair, he just compares them to see which has better games. NO. FAIR.
20:59:56 <ehird> He doesn't even like Manic Miner: http://c64vsspectrum.com/M.html
21:08:29 <pikhq> ehird: I'm pretty sure that Contiki's web browser is about on par with Lynx. So, yeah, rather basic. :)
21:09:22 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/93/Contiki-avr.png
21:09:41 <pikhq> (I am at least imagining that you'd be basically running apps about on par with Contiki's on this, if you don't bother porting the whole of Contiki)
21:09:46 <ehird> (That screenshot there, apart frmo the high resolution, can totally be reproduced with a speccy, I'm sure.)
21:09:50 <ehird> Well, apart from "processes".
21:10:01 <ehird> pikhq: Sure, but Contiki doesn't exactly do much.
21:10:15 <ehird> The display is kinda the bottleneck.
21:10:17 <pikhq> Yeah. It's one of the simplest OSes I know of.
21:10:20 <ehird> There's not much you can fit.
21:10:42 <ehird> Still, if you draw your own text you should be able to fit a few lines of IRC.
21:10:57 <pikhq> The GUI is an optional feature of Contiki.
21:11:28 <ehird> But I don't think you can have the browser without the GUI.
21:13:40 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:19:28 <ehird> I just had a fun idea!
21:19:37 <ehird> Does Windows 95 work in VirtualBox? Let's find out! To the piratescope!
21:22:18 <fizzie> I think I have a win98 VirtualBox box somewhere; don't think I've tried plain '95.
21:22:25 <ehird> Should I install via floppy or CD?
21:22:31 <ehird> CD is less annoying, but floppy is more lollerific.
21:22:41 <Azstal> I've tested it in Virtual PC, I don't know about VirtualBox
21:23:06 <Azstal> It's fun complaining to people that their sites are broken in IE 3.0
21:23:44 <ehird> Hey, VirtualBox's UI is appealing on Linux.
21:23:57 <ehird> My day just keeps getting better and better.
21:24:50 <pikhq> VirtualBox uses Qt 4. And it doesn't suck horribly.
21:24:55 <pikhq> Nice property, that.
21:25:07 * pikhq vomits at VMware Server for a bit
21:25:17 <ehird> Yeah; Qt 4's font rendering hints too much vs GTK here, but otherwise it looks identical.
21:25:22 <ehird> QGtkStyle isn't horrific, then.
21:25:44 <ehird> How many megs do you think I should use?
21:26:03 <ehird> I'd give it a whole two gigs, but really now.
21:26:49 <oerjan> after all, that's enough for everyone.
21:27:00 <pikhq> 95? Give it 64 MB and watch it never, ever swap.
21:27:10 <ehird> That's what VirtualBox recommended, but that's so... unrealistic...
21:27:13 <pikhq> (unless you use loadlin on it)
21:27:35 <pikhq> Decent amount of 95 machines had 64 MB of RAM.
21:27:46 <ehird> Would it not do the same with 32?
21:28:03 <pikhq> A few things would actually use the extra RAM.
21:28:09 <ehird> Eh, 64 it is. It's just that the minimum was 4MiB, and yeah, that's really sub-optimal, but...
21:28:26 <ehird> Then again, this is going to run with 2.16GHz of Core 2 power; it's not gonna be realistic.
21:28:33 -!- impomatic has quit ("mov.i #1,1").
21:28:39 <ehird> VMs are such fun; every OS you can imagine in a few clix.
21:28:45 <ehird> Well. VMs + piracy.
21:29:10 <ehird> A 2GB HD should do nicely, methinks?
21:29:41 <ehird> And I'll use a CD to avoid changing all the damn floppies.
21:29:46 <pikhq> My old 95 machine had 8 GB, but it was quite silly. And I don't think that ever got used.
21:30:09 <ehird> * Win95.iso 73 Mb"
21:30:09 <ehird> "# Microsoft Windows 95 operating system.iso 581 Mb"
21:30:13 <ehird> * msw95-repoc.iso 589 Mb"
21:30:37 <ehird> What an odd disrepancy.
21:31:52 <ehird> Hey, the layotu of the edit-VM page is much better on Linux.
21:32:15 <ehird> (Hey, I'm refining my "be crass without passing my conscious subsystem" code. Sorry about that nooga.)
21:32:43 <ehird> I can't believe I really typed that automatically.
21:33:29 <ehird> pikhq: what do you think is the difference between the 73 and 589 versions?
21:33:32 <ehird> one might be fake...
21:33:40 <pikhq> ehird: I'm going to assume the 73 is fake.
21:33:52 <pikhq> I know that Microsoft filled that disc.
21:33:56 <ehird> pikhq: Yeah, but consider that 95 fit on a few floppies.
21:34:18 <ehird> 581 vs 589... well, the # Microsoft Windows 95 operating system also comse with an ISO burner, serial keys for the burner, and a "READ ME".
21:34:20 <ehird> So I'll go with that one.
21:34:23 <nooga> msn client is heavier than w95
21:34:29 <ehird> Irritating that I have to download so much; oh well.
21:35:18 <ehird> 4 hours remaining.
21:35:20 <Azstal> don't forget to play Hover
21:35:23 <ehird> I hope that speeds up.
21:35:30 <ehird> Less than an hour remaining!
21:35:31 <pikhq> The Windows 95 CD came with more features and a metric fuckton of videos on the disc...
21:35:56 <pikhq> (why the fuck did it have music videos, anyways?)
21:36:29 <nooga> i can create x-rays using my hands :D
21:36:32 <ehird> http://tom.whitwell.googlepages.com/mssound1.mp3
21:36:50 <nooga> cto http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/10/video-the-scotc/
21:36:55 <ehird> It sounds so much better than the 98 version... Yay Eno.
21:37:51 <ehird> Hey, I also like Windows 2000. Nobody really appreciates it.
21:37:55 <pikhq> Also, if that's not 95 OSR/1 or greater, then you'll need to get a copy of IE to get a TCP/IP stack.
21:37:58 <ehird> pikhq: 95 didn't have serial keys, did it?
21:38:06 <pikhq> Not that I recall.
21:38:27 <ehird> pikhq: Oh; do you think in the 589 one, the extra 8 is OSR/1?
21:38:33 <ehird> I doubt it shrunk.
21:39:02 <ehird> No matter; this one is the fastest.
21:39:08 <ehird> That one doesn't have any seeders, just 14 leechers.
21:39:12 <ehird> That isn't going to, you know, work.
21:39:21 <pikhq> OSR/2.1 and OSR/2.5 added the USB stack and FAT32...
21:39:52 <ehird> FAT 16 is perfectly acceptable; I only have a 2 gig drive in this thing. :P
21:39:55 <fizzie> Hey, I do appreciate the 2k. I stuck with it a long time on that secondary Windows box.
21:40:17 <ehird> fizzie: Hooray for you, then.
21:40:32 <pikhq> They also added MMX support and 686 support with that.
21:40:45 <ehird> MMX? Psht, I have 3DNow!.
21:41:05 <ehird> It says on the little sticker. Pentium III MMX+ 3DNow!
21:41:18 <pikhq> 3DNow! is a superet of MMX. ;)
21:41:27 <ehird> Yes, but I have more than MMX, you see. :P
21:41:50 <ehird> pikhq: you accidentally the s
21:42:00 <pikhq> ehird: Yes, yes I.
21:42:06 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d5/PentiumMMX-presslogo.jpg
21:42:10 <ehird> See it! Hear it! Experience it!
21:42:53 <ehird> Hmm. I'm uploading this torrent at 0KiB/s.
21:42:56 <ehird> Hope they don't mind. :P
21:42:58 <ehird> A nice ratio of 0.
21:43:06 <ehird> So strange that torrents actually work.
21:43:31 <ehird> Hey, I should try 4.3BSD.
21:43:46 <ehird> I think my brain didn't register that I had a VM and could download operating systems until a few minutes ago...
21:44:40 <fizzie> There was a very shiny sticker that came with the Pentium 233 MMX I bought, though I guess it was a bit less colorful.
21:45:16 <ehird> I bet my father's workstation-tower-sized Pentium 4 powerhouse is still running Windows Me.
21:45:25 <ehird> That thing was ridiculously stable.
21:45:29 <ehird> It never crashed once, apparently.
21:45:48 <fizzie> That's really weird, given Me's reputation; and even my own experiences with it.
21:46:04 <ehird> Yeah, exactly. I was using Me at the time too and it was unstable as fuck. But then my hardware was really bad.
21:46:09 <fizzie> You must have befriended the magical Windows Me fairy.
21:46:18 <ehird> Those workstation towers are so tall.
21:46:47 <ehird> The floor of that room is filled with cables and everything around the computer is musical equipment; quite a lot of it. It's quite the sight.
21:47:09 <ehird> I haven't seen it in years, though, so I don't know if it's actually still like that.
21:47:14 <fizzie> I think the p233MMX was close to the fastest thing on the "regular" consumer market when I bought it; such speed, such power; it was really quite a "rush". (Is that the word?)
21:47:32 <ehird> Pentium H: for when you need your hit.
21:47:34 <fizzie> Not that it lasted very long before the Pentium II came along.
21:51:12 <ehird> Hmm, VirtualBox doesn't seem to have an "emulate a floppy drive with nothing in it" option.
21:51:48 <fizzie> 1997-08 for the "Tillamook" 233 MHz MMX; one of the last models, though apparently they did release 266 MHz and 300 MHz variants in 1998 and 1999. And the 333 MHz Pentium II in January 1998; so it was fast for a whole 4-5 months before becoming obsolete.
21:51:54 <fizzie> They still measured line width in micrometres instead of nanometres back then. (Okay, so 0.25 µm is 250 nm, but it's still reported in µm in Wikipedia.)
21:51:55 <ehird> Anyone knwo how to do that?
21:52:53 <fizzie> You can do it with VBoxManage, at least.
21:53:15 <fizzie> Something like "VBoxManage modifyvm <name> --floppy empty"
21:53:36 <fizzie> I'm not sure what it then looks like in the GUI.
21:54:00 <ehird> [ ] Mount Floppy Drive
21:54:10 <fizzie> Which apparently indeed does not distinguish between "empty" and "disabled". (I'm not sure which one it does if you just uncheck the mount floppy drive box.)
21:54:10 <ehird> ( ) Host Floppy Drive
21:54:51 <ehird> <no media> gives an error.
21:54:58 <ehird> "On the Floppy page, Floppy image file is not selected"
21:56:50 <ehird> "40 minutes remaining"; that got worse.
21:56:58 <pikhq> That's quite... Dumb.
21:58:39 <fizzie> Speaking of Windows 95, you'll probably want to the same thing that was recommended for win98 guests -- to run rain20 from http://www.benchtest.com/downloads/index.html since win95 won't automatically execute HLT instructions when idle, causing quite a lot of CPU use for VirtualBox.
21:58:49 <fizzie> I accidentally the verb, too.
21:59:43 <ehird> So Windows 95 always uses all your CPU?
21:59:50 <fizzie> Yes; energy saving is for hippies.
22:00:07 <ehird> Those chips must have run hot.
22:00:37 <fizzie> There's one for DOS too somewhere; it was really quite a good idea for VirtualBox-enabled DOS use, since 100 % CPU load makes the fans in this box a lot more audible.
22:01:12 <fizzie> dosidle210.zip, right.
22:01:18 <ehird> I can tell if 100% CPU is being used by ear, but I normally don't *notice* it for a few minutes.
22:01:24 <ehird> It's quite sublte.
22:01:28 <ehird> I can hear them spin down once I stop it, though.
22:02:28 <fizzie> This is far from subtle; will have to consider the noise side a bit more when the next hardware upgrade year rolls along.
22:03:31 <pikhq> fizzie: Exception: FreeDOS.
22:03:47 <pikhq> (... I think FreeDOS just already includes that, though.)
22:03:53 <ehird> Was lucky of me to jump on the Core 2 bandwagon so quickly; this December 2006 machine is still nice and fast.
22:04:08 <ehird> And all I've done is upgrade the ram from 1GiB to 2.5GiB; I should have got it with 2GiB in the first place.
22:04:25 <ehird> That was December 2008, so even the 1GiB lasted me fine for quite a while.
22:04:36 <ehird> Heck, I only upgraded from Tiger to Leopard in February... 2009.
22:04:40 <ehird> (It came out late 2007.)
22:05:05 <fizzie> 2007-08-07 HLT in the DOS idle loop in FreeDOS SVN. Or some-such.
22:09:09 <AnMaster> <oerjan> AnMaster: square root of minus garfield o_O <-- yeah
22:09:57 <AnMaster> <ehird> Hmm, VirtualBox doesn't seem to have an "emulate a floppy drive with nothing in it" option. <-- eh?
22:10:05 <ehird> What do you mean, eh?
22:10:07 <AnMaster> if no floppy is inserted there will be no floppy?
22:10:14 <ehird> No floppy in the drive.
22:10:18 <ehird> The drive certainly responds to stuff, though.
22:10:29 <ehird> AnMaster: In the VM edit
22:10:49 <ehird> I want this new VM to have a floppy drive. I do not want it to have any floppies in.
22:10:57 <AnMaster> ehird, um my laptop is packed down in my backpack for tomorrow so can't check. No virtualbox on desktop
22:11:13 <AnMaster> ehird, hm iirc there is always a floppy drive
22:11:23 <ehird> Is there? Aight then.
22:11:41 <AnMaster> so double check by booting some iso in it and see if it is true
22:11:45 <ehird> No biggie. I doubt 95 will install to a floppiless system anyway, so we'll see.
22:12:05 * AnMaster sets the alarm clock for 06:15
22:12:32 <pikhq> Even DOS will run just fine on a floppiless system...
22:12:58 <pikhq> I can't imagine Windows being *less* flexible.
22:12:59 <ehird> (Someone should make a bloated Microsoft DOS "distro" with a ton of stuff, and have it fill up a CD. :P)
22:13:12 <ehird> Does Windows have TSR?
22:13:14 <AnMaster> <ehird> Crazy person. <-- about 06:15?
22:13:28 <ehird> Does Windows let you access all the hardware directly without any setup?
22:14:06 <pikhq> ehird: Yes and yes. (note: Windows non-NT was quite screwy)
22:14:25 <AnMaster> ehird, oh, just need to remove the frozen water from the car windows tomorrow before leaving. Temperature during night is less than 0 C after all..
22:14:45 <AnMaster> otherwise I would set the clock for 06:20
22:15:38 <pikhq> Running DOS programs in Windows was not just mere DOS emulation. If you tried accessing the hardware directly from the DOS box, then DOS would go full-screen. ... Meaning that the Windows kernel would start acting as a TSR for interrupt handling and do nothing else.
22:15:49 <ehird> pikhq: Yah, I know that much.
22:15:52 <ehird> That's why Alley Cat works!
22:16:22 <pikhq> And TSRs would still terminate and stay resident.
22:16:25 <AnMaster> ehird, no. Crazy uni with stuff starting at 08:00 (and I need to commute...)
22:16:51 <ehird> So is that how loadlin works? Windows steps out, loadlin dismantles all of DOS while it's not running (and thus Windows) and then loads Linux, now having complete control over the hardware like a bootloader?
22:16:51 <pikhq> (I seem to recall that in order to access CDs with DOS programs, you had to use mscdex, even in Windows...)
22:17:36 <ehird> It could only be cooler if it saved the Windows currently running to the Linux disk, so you could have "Linux" and "Windows" icons on the opposite desktops.
22:17:37 <AnMaster> <ehird> So is that how loadlin works? Windows steps out, loadlin dismantles all of DOS while it's not running (and thus Windows) and then loads Linux, now having complete control over the hardware like a bootloader? <-- hm... loadlin worked inside win9x?
22:17:48 <ehird> Because DOS programs did.
22:18:10 <AnMaster> <ehird> It could only be cooler if it saved the Windows currently running to the Linux disk, so you could have "Linux" and "Windows" icons on the opposite desktops. <-- the linux -> windows way could maybe be done with kexec actually
22:18:58 <ehird> It'd basically be a case of "kexec a kernel that wipes all traces of Linux and then bootloads Windows".
22:19:17 <ehird> Like fast user switching, except OSs, not users, and slow. :P
22:19:19 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah... you could make it suspend to disk for linux at least
22:19:38 <ehird> Windows can hibernate, but the problem is resuming.
22:19:45 <pikhq> You could make loadlin suspend Windows to disk itself.
22:19:51 <ehird> pikhq: That's the idea.
22:19:54 <ehird> Well, I guess it'd work
22:20:15 <ehird> It'd be quite slow, but it'd work fine
22:20:15 <pikhq> That'd just be a kexec call.
22:20:26 <ehird> That'd be so much fun.
22:20:34 <AnMaster> ehird, for linux the best way is s2disk. I think loadlin could even boot from resume even
22:20:37 <ehird> Quicker than dual-booting, at least. :P
22:20:53 <ehird> AnMaster: loadlin just loads the kernel like normal, so it can do the regular resume stuff.
22:21:15 <AnMaster> ehird, right, as long as you can provide a command line like resume=/dev/sda5 or whatever
22:21:39 <ehird> Hee, I should do this with my Win95 setup once it's installed.
22:21:45 <ehird> AnMaster: *has >_<
22:22:00 <pikhq> loadlin takes as its first argument the vmlinuz and the rest is the kernel command line.
22:22:12 <ehird> pikhq: loadlin could theoretically boot, say, FreeBSD, right?
22:22:19 <pikhq> (and parsed as LILO does with regard to vga=)
22:22:23 <ehird> I mean, GRUB can, and it's not too far off.
22:22:47 <ehird> Heck, you could modify loadlin to run GRUB; all it does is dismantle the DOS around it, and then you're in boot-up land.
22:22:56 <pikhq> ehird: If you patched it to handle BSD kernels or made a small stub "kernel" in Linux kernel format to load FreeBSD, sure.
22:22:59 <AnMaster> I very much doubt this just does a regular "load multiboot kernel" kind of thing
22:23:20 <pikhq> AnMaster: It does a regular "load Linux kernel" kind of thing.
22:23:28 <ehird> Just modify it to load GRUB with a specified configuration file to immediately load the other OS.
22:23:40 <pikhq> ehird: That's also quite doable.
22:23:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, well is that "load any multiboot kernel" or "load just linux kernel"?
22:23:41 <ehird> Voila, you can switch to any OS without rebooting.
22:23:53 <ehird> Then writing an equivalent for Linux and BSDs would be trivial.
22:23:56 <ehird> This'd be great, actually.
22:23:58 <pikhq> AnMaster: Linux uses its own kernel format.
22:24:18 <ehird> I mean, it's kinda hard to hibernate, then boot into another OS, with today's OSs.
22:24:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm? I thought grub just loaded multiboot ELF images?
22:24:31 <ehird> And this'd save a few seconds.
22:24:38 <pikhq> No. GRUB *also* supports that.
22:24:57 <AnMaster> well then, bsd will be harder for loadlin
22:24:58 <pikhq> IIRC, Xen is the only mainstream thing to use Multiboot.
22:25:02 <ehird> And if you hacked up all your OSs to boot in like 15 seconds (Ubuntu is getting 5 seconds on an SSD for 9.10, so)...
22:25:06 <ehird> Instant OS switching!
22:25:23 <pikhq> Also, Multiboot is about the only useful thing to come out of HURD yet.
22:25:33 * Sgeo_ would love instant OS switching
22:25:50 <AnMaster> ehird, the "load any from win9x" would be easy. and "load any from linux" too (kexec). But for BSD hm...?
22:25:52 <pikhq> Oh, VMware's hypervisor also uses it.
22:25:57 <ehird> I'm sure BSD has some sort of kexec thing.
22:26:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, lots of small OS projects do too
22:26:16 <ehird> Sgeo_: You could even set up IRC clients on both; they'd reconnect when resumed, so you'd only ever lose IRC connection for, oh, 20-30 seconds.
22:26:53 <ehird> Multiboot is like 5-10 lines of assembly. If you're C-friendly (and thus can use GRUB), it's the obvious thing to do.
22:27:11 <AnMaster> "C-friendly (and thus can use GRUB)" <--- eh?
22:27:23 <ehird> GRUB is written in C.
22:27:41 <ehird> If you're writing, e.g. ehirdOS, you won't want to use it.
22:27:46 <pikhq> Also, Multiboot is pretty much written assuming you'll be writing the kernel entry point in C.
22:27:56 <Sgeo_> What would ehirdOS be written in?
22:28:01 <ehird> pikhq: Well, assembly.
22:28:09 <pikhq> ehird: Well, yeah.
22:28:10 <AnMaster> well, just because you don't write in a language yourself doesn't mean you feel unable to use a program written in said lang does it?
22:28:12 <ehird> Sgeo_: Assembly, maybe Forth, and Lisp or Smalltalk.
22:28:29 <ehird> AnMaster: I'd explain why using GRUB would be The Wrong Thing, but it'd be tedious because, you know, it's you.
22:28:36 <pikhq> AnMaster: I don't think he wants to deal with details like C structs.
22:28:36 <Sgeo_> I should try to learn Lisp
22:28:50 <Sgeo_> I think I tried once, and proceeded to forget absolutely everything
22:28:56 <ehird> It's the same reason I wouldn't use freetype or anything else C.
22:29:00 <pikhq> (GRUB passes the entry point a C struct with a bunch of pointers in it...)
22:29:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm fair enough. A bit of a pain to construct an ELF header manually I guess
22:29:12 <ehird> Because C is The Wrong Thing, and it infects things using it with The Wrong Things.
22:29:22 <Sgeo_> ehird, dogmatic much?
22:29:38 <ehird> No, Sgeo_; I've just used C software a lot.
22:30:03 <ehird> Admittedly it seems "natural" for someone used to the idiocies of low level programming, redundant memory/disk address spaces and oh-so-much more.
22:30:18 <AnMaster> doesn't multiboot give you 32-bit at entry?
22:30:26 <ehird> But I'm not particularly interested in rebutting that at the moment, having more fun things to do like try Windows 95.
22:30:28 <Sgeo_> Should I learn Common Lisp, or Scheme?
22:30:30 <AnMaster> thus making it less of a pain to set up protected mode
22:30:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, how does multiboot work on non-x86 then?
22:30:53 <ehird> Sgeo_: Start with R5RS (not R6RS; just don't use PLT Scheme and you'll be fine) Scheme.
22:31:16 <ehird> Sgeo_: If you hate it because you're a stupid loser poopyhead, try Common Lisp (implementation SBCL).
22:31:20 * Sgeo_ has no clue what any of that means
22:31:25 <pikhq> AnMaster: Multiboot 2.0 which will support that doesn't exist yet.
22:31:27 <ehird> That is not surprising.
22:31:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, for example, 16-bit platforms? Or ones that start natively in 64-bit mode? Or something strange like IA64
22:31:42 <ehird> And Multiboot is x86 only.
22:31:58 <pikhq> GRUB 2.0 is portable, as is Multiboot 2.0.
22:32:01 <pikhq> Both are works in progress.
22:32:09 <ehird> both are vaporware
22:32:26 <ehird> grub 1 has been "dead" for like 10 years
22:32:27 <ehird> grub 2 is the best thing ever hur hur garbleblargle
22:32:27 <ehird> Hey, Win95 downloaderated.
22:32:28 <pikhq> GRUB 2 is in beta ATM.
22:32:30 <Sgeo_> PSOX was considered vaporware once
22:32:38 <ehird> Now should I be rude and cut of this seeding.
22:33:00 <pikhq> (and works just fine)
22:33:49 <ehird> grub 1 stagnated because of grub 2
22:34:37 <ehird> "As we all know,Microsoft has never released the Windows 95 operating system which was bootable from the CD-ROM disk and which you could install by using just the CD-ROM disk.You would always
22:34:37 <ehird> need those boot diskettes to boot from the Microsoft Windows 95 CD-ROM disk and to install Microsoft Windows 95 operating system..."
22:35:06 <ehird> Looks like it's a patched .iso to handle that for you.
22:35:18 <ehird> -The size of the hard disk drive on which you are planning to install Microsoft Windows 95
22:35:19 <ehird> operating system must be at least 9 GB in size
22:35:53 <ehird> Oh well, this should do.
22:36:17 <ehird> "Starting Windows 98". This thing uses 98 to boot 95.
22:36:46 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:37:02 <ehird> So, I need to do X:\SETUP.EXE and it'll start the Windows 95 installer.
22:37:06 <Deewiant> The thing itself fits in around 200 MB
22:37:10 <ehird> I'm at a Windows 98 DOS prompt :P
22:37:21 <ehird> It used that Oak Corporation CD driver; I remember that!
22:37:42 <ehird> Heh, I need to make an MS-DOS boot partition to set up Windows.
22:38:00 <ehird> But I have fdisk! So yay.
22:38:05 <ehird> "Your computer has a disk larger than 512 MB". Yes, turn on large disk support. :P
22:38:21 <ehird> Oh, apparently some versions of Windows 95 aren't compatible with that.
22:38:31 <ehird> Ah, it just means "use FAT32".
22:39:19 <ehird> *Oak Technology, not corporation.
22:40:17 <ehird> It formatted the 2GB C: in less than a second. :P
22:40:58 <ehird> Hoorah! http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-10/windows-95.png
22:41:37 <Deewiant> Wonder if the 30-60 min estimate is accurate
22:41:58 <ehird> I'll set a stopwatch off once I get to the actual installing meat.
22:42:11 <ehird> Or, uh, just note down the time.
22:42:22 <ehird> Yes I accept the license agreement. Not. :P
22:42:37 <ehird> Ha, it lets you install somewhere else than C:\WINDOWS.
22:42:58 <ehird> Heh, it has its own Portable install configuration for laptops.
22:43:17 <ehird> pikhq: It didn't have serials. But it had a Certificate of Authenticity.
22:43:21 <ehird> Which is just a smaller serial key.
22:44:13 <ehird> 22901-oem-0009093-18985"
22:44:13 <ehird> Thank you, Google.
22:45:06 <ehird> Yes, Windows 95, I have both a Network Adapter and a Sound, MIDI, or Video Capture Card.
22:45:18 <ehird> The pointer flickers a remarkable amount.
22:45:36 <ehird> it started checking for hardware
22:45:58 <ehird> (It's a hands-off part, so I'll include this in the total and just add a bit to account for them adding user input to the time.)
22:47:08 <ehird> So about two minutes.
22:47:25 <ehird> Hey, a startup disk to start my computer and run diagnostic programs if I have trouble starting Windows!
22:47:53 <ehird> Yeah, this is going to be quick. :P
22:48:07 <ehird> It's flashing all these marketing screens, but I can barely read two paragraphs before they flicker away.
22:48:18 <ehird> Wow, they had Microsoft Exchange then.
22:48:21 <ehird> And The Microsoft Network was an ISP.
22:48:31 <Deewiant> 30 to 60 min = 1x to 8x CD-ROM drive?
22:48:39 <ehird> It's copied the files.
22:48:47 <ehird> So that took under two minutes.
22:48:54 <ehird> Now going to restart and finish Setup!
22:49:15 <ehird> Heh; it thinks I have a floppy in the drive because the startup disk thing is emulating one.
22:49:18 <ehird> It's okay, man. Restart.
22:49:38 <ehird> Uh oh, was that a boot failure?
22:49:41 <ehird> I'll just hard-reset.
22:49:55 <ehird> It's hands-off now.
22:50:01 <ehird> "Getting ready to run Windows 95 for the first time..."
22:50:07 <ehird> And we're back in Setup, still hands off.
22:50:27 <ehird> I need to provide the computer and workgroup names for the network!
22:50:42 <ehird> Computer name: Eno
22:51:07 <ehird> Description: Windows 95
22:51:17 <ehird> Now it wants the Windows 95 CD-ROM.
22:51:22 <ehird> Hope the boot-up CD-ROM suffices.
22:51:46 <ehird> Ah, I just need to locate the Windows 95 files on it.
22:51:52 <ehird> Without a file browser, sigh.
22:52:18 <ehird> X:\WIN95\. Simple enough. Why is it X:\?
22:52:46 <ehird> It can't find netapi.dll, i.e. the networking stuff.
22:52:50 <ehird> I'll have to download IE or whatever.
22:53:57 <ehird> pikhq: think I should just start over and omit the networking stuff?
22:56:55 <ehird> Okay, let's try that again.
22:57:41 <ehird> Heh, it doesn't ask about the network this time.
22:57:49 <ehird> Analyzing computer.
22:58:51 <pikhq> Maybe it's working now?
22:59:36 <ehird> pikhq: Nah; it just doesn't realise it has a network now for some reason.
23:01:33 <ehird> Okay, it's failed.
23:01:57 <ehird> Okay, really hands off.
23:01:59 <ehird> It's booting Setup.
23:02:03 <ehird> Windows protection error.
23:02:27 <ehird> Fuck shitting bullhorns.
23:02:49 <ehird> Maybe it doesn't like AC97.
23:04:03 <ehird> win95 does not usually work on a cpu faster than 300 mhz...
23:04:03 <ehird> there is a patch to get it to work... but I doubt it would work on a 2.8ghz
23:04:17 <ehird> "Try installing the AMD high speed processor patch."
23:04:31 <ehird> Please note that the fix described,
23:04:32 <ehird> and also mentioned by Ben Myers in another reply in this thread, does NOT work on
23:04:32 <ehird> Win95 Gold or Win95A, which is what you have according to your description
23:05:08 <ehird> So, basically, I'm fucked at the momnet.
23:05:47 <ehird> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/192841
23:06:08 <ehird> i'll try it a few times more first
23:08:34 <ehird> Command prompt works, so let's try running this patch.
23:13:38 <ehird> lol, win /d:fmsvx gets in
23:13:47 <ehird> (every troubleshooting option apart from networking)
23:14:18 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:14:51 <ehird> Feast your eyes on the not-yet-fully-installed Windows 95 in safe mode! http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-10/windows-95-safe-mode.png
23:15:02 <ehird> It seems to be using DOS filenames.
23:15:40 <ehird> Access floppy drive = BSOD!
23:15:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
23:15:54 <ehird> And Windows freezes if you continue from it, naturally.
23:19:11 <ehird> OK, 32-bit seems to be what breaks it.
23:19:53 <ehird> There we go. Just 16-bit-disk-accses safe mode works.
23:20:56 <ehird> And exploring A: works.
23:21:28 <ehird> Update complete, bringing with it spam ISP links.
23:21:34 <ehird> Why am I not surprised, Microsoft?
23:22:04 <ehird> Okay, let's try and boot into normal Windows 95, then run Setup to fix my awful mistakes.
23:22:06 <ehird> Hey, did that work?
23:22:19 <ehird> It's setting up my hardware, apparently.
23:22:35 <ehird> And running Setup!
23:22:47 <ehird> Deewiant: they were right about 30-60 minutes...
23:22:53 <ehird> I can continue through the BSOD
23:23:24 <Deewiant> Why are you messing with Win95 anyway
23:23:41 <ehird> Enter Network Password!
23:23:46 <ehird> Hands on, installation probably finished.
23:23:57 <ehird> Deewiant: Why not? It's not totally alien and DOSlike like 3.11, but it's not all modern and icky and internetty like 98.
23:24:17 <ehird> It has no pretences of being a "real" OS, yet it has so much gooey GUI.
23:24:25 <Deewiant> People typically have reasons for installing old OSes
23:24:27 <ehird> Hey, in that background you can see one of Microsoft's split-keyboard-in-one-unit things.
23:24:37 <ehird> Deewiant: Have VM, bittorrent sites, will install OSs.
23:24:52 <lament> i want a split keyboard
23:24:54 <ehird> All installed, booted up.
23:25:09 <lament> do fully split, wireless keyboards exist?
23:25:10 <ehird> Windows Tour wants the silly CD-ROM. :P
23:25:18 <ehird> lament: Not wireless.
23:25:23 <ehird> Deewiant: That's basically 3.11.
23:25:29 <ehird> lament: Why do you need wireless? :P
23:25:41 <lament> ehird: because it's fully split
23:25:49 <ehird> "What happened to my program groups?" "What happened to File Manager?" --Windows Help
23:25:56 <lament> ehird: kinesis sells a keyboard where the two halves are connected by a 20-inch cord. That's lame.
23:26:05 <ehird> so what, mount it on your chair :D
23:26:12 <ehird> and mount the cables on your chair's back
23:26:14 <lament> 20-inch is not long enough for that
23:26:20 <ehird> How big is your chair
23:26:33 <ehird> Sweet, dragging the scrollbar doesn't do anything until you leave go
23:26:41 <ehird> Graphics are very choppy. Did it really flicker this much?
23:26:46 <ehird> Even just moving the mouse.
23:26:54 <ehird> Icon on the desktop: "The Internet".
23:27:07 * ehird clicks Properties. Looks like IE.
23:27:14 <ehird> It opens IE settings, I think.
23:27:36 <ehird> It didn't install the sounds :(
23:27:59 <ehird> Sweet, I have *four* floppy drives
23:28:41 <ehird> Haha, setup.exe runs fine on a booted 95 system
23:28:57 <ehird> Wow, explorer switches to list view if the folder has a lot of entries.
23:31:19 -!- coppro has joined.
23:43:36 <ehird> pikhq: the 79MB one wasn't faked
23:43:40 <ehird> that's the size of \win95
23:46:27 <ehird> this has microsoft chat
23:46:39 <ehird> it's some telephone thing
23:47:14 <nooga> FAILBOT READY TO OPERATE
23:47:36 <ehird> you succeeded at failing
23:47:38 <ehird> but you're failbot
23:47:41 <ehird> so you failed at being failbot
23:48:42 <nooga> that went exactly as i planned :D
23:49:08 <ehird> so it succeeded at going to plan?
23:49:11 <ehird> i thought you were failbot!
23:49:25 <nooga> i was just pretending
23:49:51 <nooga> i could write a failbot that fails at failing
23:50:29 <nooga> it could also fail at failing at failing
23:50:53 <oerjan> i never metafailbot i didn't like *barely avoids falling anvil*
23:50:55 <ehird> it'd succeed at being xzibit, which isn't failing.
23:52:18 <ehird> Hmph, I seem to have no audio drivers either.
23:52:21 <nooga> huh... what?! formal languages tomorrow at 8 in the morning :F
23:52:22 <ehird> Let's get the internet on this thing.
23:53:01 <ehird> It can't find the file on the CD-ROM; why am I surprised.
23:53:52 <ehird> It's looking in X:
23:53:55 <ehird> but my CD drive is now H:
23:54:15 <ehird> Windows 95 drive letters. :P
23:54:24 <nooga> it's like deeper :) backwards
23:55:01 <ehird> An unexpected error has occurred!
23:55:05 <ehird> Say it ain't so, IE 3.
23:55:37 <ehird> I sort of forgive it; I *am* running it in a VM with modern hardware, after all.
23:56:09 <oerjan> An expected error has occurred!
23:56:12 <ehird> This VGA driver is oh-so-very slow.
23:56:41 <pikhq> ehird: So... Win95 is 79mb, but it requires 9GB free?
23:56:59 <ehird> The 9GB figure was included in the torrent's info file.
23:57:37 <nooga> i remember playing neverhood under 95
23:57:41 <ehird> In fact it's only using 115MB; I haven't got the system sounds, though, just the Microsoft Sound. Maybe because my audio doesn't work it decided not to copy them.
23:57:46 <ehird> I love that game so much.
23:58:11 <ehird> Klaymen, you mean.
23:58:28 <ehird> I looked up the guy behind it and Earthworm Jim a few years back; he's a crazy conservative Christian type. :(
23:58:43 <ehird> (USA-style Republican.)
23:59:26 <ehird> pikhq: Say, it's possible IE 3 didn't do HTTP 1.1, isn't it?
23:59:36 <pikhq> ehird: Possible, sure.
23:59:43 <ehird> >_< you can't hit the bottom-left corner to open the start menu