00:06:54 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:24:13 -!- coppro has joined.
00:34:38 -!- augur has joined.
00:43:06 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:48:21 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:48:21 -!- ehird_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:48:34 -!- ehird has joined.
00:52:12 <ehird> http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/172774/dell_adds_wireless_battery_charging_to_new_laptop.html
01:01:16 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
01:01:36 * Rugxulo is brewing up his second ETA program (long), still only does simple text output, heh (trying to be poetic)
01:02:49 <Sgeo> Stupid Sgeo project of the day: Translate the Haskell Prelude into Python
01:03:15 <ehird> Only via greenspunning.
01:03:19 <Sgeo> Well, as much as possible
01:03:26 <ehird> You mean the useless, trivial functions?
01:03:31 <ehird> And the ones Python already has?
01:03:39 <Sgeo> Python has foldr?
01:03:49 <ehird> It's called reduce.
01:04:06 -!- augur has joined.
01:04:13 <ehird> (I'm not sure whether it's foldl/foldr but outside of Haskell that rarely matters.)
01:04:55 <Sgeo> Incidentally, I don't see how useless/useful matters. I'm not trying to make anything useful.
01:04:59 <Sgeo> I'm just bored
01:05:50 <ehird> By useless, I mean things as pointless as (what will turn into) succ x = x+1.
01:06:03 <Rugxulo> Sgeo, if you're bored, take a look at ETA
01:06:09 <ehird> The rest is either impossible without basically implementing Haskell in Python, or is already in Python.
01:06:20 <ehird> Doing such a pointless thing can't possibly relieve any boredom...
01:06:22 <Rugxulo> http://www.miketaylor.org.uk/tech/eta/doc/index.html
01:06:26 <ehird> Rugxulo: have you played with bf joust?
01:06:52 * Rugxulo still wants to finish his ETA proggie ...
01:07:24 <ehird> (http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust; we use egojoust)
01:07:45 <ehird> also, I came up with the two modifications to ais523's rules to make it fairer, nyah :P
01:07:50 <Sgeo> Rugxulo, linky?
01:09:02 <Rugxulo> http://www.miketaylor.org.uk/tech/eta/doc/index.html
01:09:33 <Rugxulo> basically it's eight instructions, also doubling as numbers, and it's not a Brainf*** clone
01:14:04 <Sgeo> Should I download XEmacs or GNU Emacs?
01:14:27 <Rugxulo> lots of updates lately, 23.1 was just released like two months ago, internal Unicode now
01:14:32 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
01:14:35 <ehird> But XEmacs; both because of jwz and since it sucks more, you'll be less likely to bug us about using it since you'll give up.
01:15:14 <ehird> Also, last I recall it *doesn't* include the GNU Manifesto, which is a huge plus.
01:15:59 <Sgeo> ehird's just convinced me to go with GNU
01:16:12 <Sgeo> Unless "it sucks more" was sarcastic?
01:16:17 <Sgeo> Also, updates++
01:16:23 <ehird> Congratulations, you get to use the editor equivalent of something that sucks.
01:16:33 <Sgeo> Are there significant keybinding differences?
01:16:36 <ehird> I will not supply the mandatory rusty fork for your eyeballs.
01:16:47 <Rugxulo> doesn't matter, you can rebind it ;-)
01:16:54 <Sgeo> Rugxulo, too lazy
01:17:08 <ehird> Personally I think the best Emacs variant is vim, since you're determined to learn one or the other through whatever deluded ideas from idiots with beards passed through your head.
01:17:18 <Rugxulo> even different versions of GNU differ on a few keycodes
01:17:20 <ehird> Shut up, I am *not* cynical and bitter.
01:17:44 <Sgeo> Does nano have SQL syntax hilighting?
01:17:49 <ehird> Stop imagining me with wispy grey hair drinking wiskey and slamming keys into a Model M. I AM NOT THAT PERSON.
01:17:55 <Rugxulo> no idea (but it does support hilighting now)
01:18:08 <ehird> Gee, he goes straight from XEmacs to nano. A veritable bonanza of suck.
01:18:24 <Sgeo> ehird, I'm currently using nano for school
01:18:28 <Rugxulo> yeah, Nano ain't exactly in the same league, unless you just want a very simple editor
01:18:41 <ehird> I'd be all yay, minimalism but nano is kinda poor.
01:18:59 <Rugxulo> Sgeo, you on Linux i presume?
01:19:02 <ehird> Sgeo: Man up and install GVim, it's more elegant and you get to have buttons to click if that's your thing.
01:19:18 <Sgeo> Well, I have to connect to the school's Linux computer through SSH
01:19:22 <ehird> Because he has some sort of crack-esque addiction to games that don't run in a VM, and dual-booting takes like 5 years, from what I gather.
01:19:27 <ehird> Sgeo: Using an editor over ssh?
01:19:31 <ehird> The lag will be delicious.
01:19:35 <ehird> Well, Emacs isn't an option.
01:19:35 <Rugxulo> try TDE (DOS or Win32), it can be compiled for Linux too w/ Ncurses dev:
01:19:39 <ehird> Over SSH it's piss-poor.
01:19:53 <Sgeo> ehird, it works quite well, when I was trying it
01:20:00 <ehird> It really doesn't.
01:20:56 <Sgeo> Wow, what a tough choice. ehird, who I usually believe, or my own personal experience.
01:21:10 <ehird> I will toy with your pony mind.
01:21:16 <ehird> But, also pony I guess.
01:21:29 <Rugxulo> www.texteditors.org (if you want options)
01:21:53 <ehird> I'll just go ahead and spoil that every text editor sucks really, really badly.
01:22:00 <ehird> Except perhaps acme.
01:22:06 <ehird> Which merely sucks.
01:22:14 <ehird> Rabble rabble rabble.
01:22:52 -!- ehird has quit ("Ex-Chat").
01:23:04 -!- ehird has joined.
01:23:05 * Rugxulo is in GNU Emacs right now, BTW, using ERC
01:23:29 <Rugxulo> yet I'm also using TDE (my typical favorite editor by habit)
01:24:50 <ehird> Heh, 80/2phi ~= 25, so 80x24 is quite close to an appealing size.
01:25:29 <Rugxulo> and yet that's what most people hate about Befunge93
01:25:39 <ehird> Well, it is sort of limiting.
01:25:39 * Rugxulo thinks VIC-20 programmers should feel at home, heh
01:26:03 <Rugxulo> no worse than no fork(), file I/O, random stack access, etc. :-)
01:26:07 <Rugxulo> but simplicity is a virtue
01:26:20 * ehird notes that GVim's toolbar is worse than useless.
01:26:30 <Rugxulo> it's true, Emacs is probably too much of everything (same with Nethack), but hey, they're good enough
01:26:42 <ehird> Gotta wonder why they bother.
01:27:19 <Rugxulo> no worse than a toolbar in Emacs (heh)
01:27:26 <ehird> That one is also terrible.
01:27:32 <ehird> But the Emacs menus are the real sin.
01:28:40 * Rugxulo actually thought the whole "using a free software vi isn't a sin but merely a penance" was funny ;-)
01:29:03 <ehird> maybe I should just declare a hiatus from sanity and use some fucked-up crazy fun weird-ass editor like http://software.jessies.org/evergreen/ and just blind everyone with my superior unconventionality
01:29:25 <ehird> I wonder if it does Haskell.
01:29:29 <Rugxulo> VIM is good too, just there doesn't have to be only "one true editor (tm)"
01:30:30 <Rugxulo> but seriously, try TDE, it's quite nice
01:30:44 <ehird> It looks like it has ncurses menus.
01:30:51 <ehird> Well, ncurses-similar.
01:30:53 <ehird> That sort of thing.
01:30:57 <Rugxulo> it uses Ncurses only on Linux
01:31:08 <ehird> And it has menus, right.
01:31:20 <Rugxulo> yes, menus (which you don't have to use, has keyboard shortcuts too)
01:31:35 <ehird> Yes, but it means it'll be a typical DOS Borland-style program. :P
01:31:54 <ehird> I'd say the closest Unix-based analog of that type of program is JED.
01:31:57 <Rugxulo> not really, it's better than typical Borland stuff
01:31:59 <ehird> http://www.jedsoft.org/jed/
01:32:02 <ehird> (Unix-originating that is)
01:32:05 <Rugxulo> I've tried JED, it's very good
01:32:07 <ehird> Rugxulo: I mean in UI design
01:32:29 <ehird> http://www.jedsoft.org/images/jed1.png is just a funny image.
01:32:31 <Rugxulo> honestly, I could be wrong, don't know the history, but I *think* texteditors.org says TDE is a IBM E clone (or similar)
01:32:48 <ehird> We have this graphical environment, not unbelievably awful, with a program that emulates an ancient CRT terminal from way back including control code.s
01:33:14 <ehird> And a modern GUI-based program, showhorned to use these control codes to draw ugly, low-resolution widgets with terrible mouse support.
01:33:26 <ehird> And... people prefer this over using the damn upper GUI layer... why?
01:33:33 <ehird> ncurses is just so bizarre.
01:33:45 <ehird> that's what I'm saying, look at http://www.jedsoft.org/images/jed1.png
01:33:57 <ehird> I don't care if it uses a |_ character instead of pushing pixels
01:34:08 <ehird> It's a GUI on an antiquated display with terrible input mechanisms
01:34:29 <ehird> There is no difference in the actual UI at all from a GUI, and the actual program merely integrates with the environment worse, looks uglier, and has inferior mouse support
01:34:43 <Rugxulo> JED has very good mouse support, better than most
01:34:56 <ehird> My other points stand.
01:34:58 <Rugxulo> but I don't think looks matter much (at least, not to me)
01:35:06 <Rugxulo> as long as it works, good!
01:35:43 <ehird> Yes, but the point is that it has no ADVANTAGES, only a crazy insanity of layers upon 70s-originating layers emulating the present, and that is simply bizarre.
01:36:16 <Rugxulo> so everything should be X-only? (I hope not!)
01:37:36 <ehird> Justify that. Justify how a JED-style GUI (don't say it's not a GUI, those are graphical widgets it's drawing, onto a low-resolution, low-colour display built entirely out of an emulation of 70s constructs) is any better than an X GUI. Why are these layers better? What do we gain over not requiring X, other than satisfying people who prefer the crazy 70s-based crippled ncurses graphical layer over the 80s-based at-least-slightly-modern X11?
01:38:11 <Rugxulo> not requiring X means you don't need X installed, don't need a suitable graphics driver, etc.
01:38:22 <ehird> are you running X at the moment?
01:39:26 <ehird> like 90% of linux desktops run X, and the rest are crazy irrational oboes^Whobos.
01:39:29 <ehird> if you have a framebuffer you can run X for chrissakes
01:39:32 <ehird> not having X installed - uh
01:39:37 <ehird> you need ncurses installed for ncurses programs
01:39:48 <Rugxulo> not if you link statically ;-)
01:39:53 <ehird> two GUI layers, one crippled and based on ancient technology, one not the first and the latter has been patche dup
01:40:02 <ehird> you could include X with your program too, and it'd be just as stupid
01:40:24 <ehird> yah, like a whole 100 megs.
01:40:36 <ehird> a suitable graphics driver, as i said, anything that can run a framebuffer can run X, and anything that can't run a framebuffer is going to be quite painful
01:42:53 <ehird> with bf joust warriors
01:43:20 * Rugxulo is still hacking away at the ETA program / prose
01:46:48 * Rugxulo probably went about this the wrong way
01:47:03 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
01:56:26 * Rugxulo wonders if anybody wants to even read this sucker when done :-/
01:58:08 <Rugxulo> is there a pastebin I can post my WIP at?
01:58:54 <ehird> sure, pastebin.ca or something
01:59:40 <Rugxulo> okay, now here's the "backstory" so you understand it ;-))
01:59:41 <Rugxulo> http://www.osnews.com/comments/22225
02:00:24 <ehird> de icaza is a wonderful name for someone to call a traitor
02:00:26 <ehird> so spanish piratey
02:01:20 * ehird starts Evergreen. OH GOD JAVA TEXT RENDERING MAKE IT STOP MAKE IT STOOOOOOOOOP
02:01:28 <Rugxulo> http://pastebin.ca/1585217
02:01:36 <ehird> Fuck fuck OW my EYES
02:01:44 * Rugxulo doesn't even know how to pronounce it
02:01:55 <Rugxulo> I always read either Ikaza or Izaka :-P
02:02:40 <Rugxulo> this is meant to be a valid ETA program, but all it really does it print a silly joke
02:02:56 <Rugxulo> as you can tell, some words ain't fleshed out yet
02:03:21 <Rugxulo> not really, but goofy? heck yes! :-D
02:06:24 <Rugxulo> it basically prints this (hope this isn't considered flooding):
02:06:45 <Rugxulo> u share code else rms get mad
02:07:38 <Sgeo> Don't talk to me about silly jokes
02:08:02 * ehird tries using IcedTea (and thus GNU Classpath) instead of the java jvm for font rendering
02:08:21 <ehird> Bonus: Appears to predate their awful subpixel crap
02:08:34 <ehird> Downside: Still ugly
02:09:23 <Sgeo> I'm not going to finish
02:09:40 <ehird> Ignore Sgeo, he's on crack.
02:09:48 <ehird> (Note: This is good life advice always.)
02:09:55 <Rugxulo> or worse ... fungal toe! :-D
02:10:16 <Sgeo> Oh wait, wrong starting
02:10:18 <Sgeo> Still, http://trac2.assembla.com/psox/browser/trunk/impl/psox/db_utils.py
02:10:19 <coppro> Ignore ehird, he's ehird. Also good life advice.
02:10:25 <ehird> Sgeo is like my sidekick that I just abuse and never helps me with anything and I just, like, solve the case and get all the chicks and then stomp on his head a bit for good measure and he keeps running around like a doofus
02:10:29 <ehird> Something like that
02:10:39 <ehird> I'm going to go cut myself now.
02:12:27 -!- puzzlet has joined.
02:12:48 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
02:32:29 * Rugxulo is still seeing the same Vista bugs, so it's (badly) ironic that 7 is coming out soon
02:37:51 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 148 (No route to host)).
02:41:04 <Sgeo> Network Address Translation
02:41:34 <Sgeo> Several computers behind one router. When a computer makes a request, it's sent using the router's IP. Thus, the individual computers don't have individual IP addresses
02:42:04 <Sgeo> The router routes the results of requests properly, but without forwarding, inbound requests make no sense, as there's no IP to request from
02:42:13 <Rugxulo> so if I say "your NAT murders OE", does it even almost make sense?
02:42:25 <Sgeo> If it's a server, it makes sense
02:42:31 <Gregor> Presumably some protocol that doesn't work over a NAT.
02:42:41 <Gregor> Everything should murder Outlook.
02:42:45 * Rugxulo is still working on the Fungal Toe ETA program
02:42:55 <Gregor> It should be the goal of everyone to murder Outlook and all software like it.
02:43:09 <Sgeo> Is Evolution considered Outlook-like?
02:43:27 <Gregor> The property being compared is terriblocity.
02:52:53 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
02:52:59 -!- puzzlet has joined.
03:10:49 <Rugxulo> updated but still not quite done
03:10:50 <Rugxulo> http://pastebin.ca/1585289
03:12:25 -!- immibis has joined.
03:25:07 -!- immibis has quit ("Download IceChat at www.icechat.net").
03:38:51 <Rugxulo> I think I'm basically done
03:39:06 <Rugxulo> it could still be cleaned up a bit, made to look better, rhyme better, make more sense, etc.
03:39:16 <Rugxulo> but I think it's more-or-less done :-)
03:40:00 <Rugxulo> http://pastebin.ca/1585307
03:40:37 <Rugxulo> someone please read it ;-)
04:02:33 -!- augur has joined.
04:21:51 <Rugxulo> should be more readable (hopefully)
04:21:52 <Rugxulo> http://pastebin.ca/1585356
04:26:48 <Rugxulo> P.S. I guess I should license this under GPLv3, just to be extra hilarious ;-)
04:46:33 <Rugxulo> http://pastebin.ca/1585395
04:46:40 -!- Rugxulo has left (?).
04:53:21 -!- lament has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
04:56:43 -!- lament has joined.
06:16:34 -!- Asztal has joined.
06:20:17 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
06:59:04 <coppro> I am now reminded of an awesome shirt I saw last weekend: "Reality is for people who can't handle √-1̅
06:59:29 <coppro> ugh, that combining overline fails
07:00:41 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection).
07:01:31 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
07:15:03 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
07:53:42 -!- Pthing has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:12:29 -!- kar8nga has joined.
08:33:12 -!- oerjan has joined.
08:34:50 <oerjan> <ehird> joke on ai? <-- you need joke explanations now? sad, sad.
08:43:48 -!- Azstal has joined.
09:01:00 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
09:20:53 -!- ais523 has joined.
09:36:08 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
09:36:25 -!- ais523 has joined.
09:37:58 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
09:58:48 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
10:48:43 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
11:13:51 -!- adam_d has joined.
11:42:30 -!- Azstal has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
12:31:08 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:38:12 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Connection timed out).
13:39:54 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
14:20:37 -!- kar8nga has joined.
14:20:41 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:20:52 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:38:21 -!- FireFly has joined.
15:09:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
15:30:28 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
16:09:48 -!- ehird has joined.
16:11:58 <ehird> 18:43:09 <Sgeo> Is Evolution considered Outlook-like?
16:12:04 <ehird> Evolution is awful, awful, awful and should not be part of GNOME at all.
16:12:33 -!- ehird has quit (Client Quit).
16:12:46 -!- ehird has joined.
16:26:32 <Gregor> `addquote <ehird> Evolution is awful, awful, awful
16:26:50 <Gregor> Why does HackBot keep wandering off of FreeNOde...
16:27:35 <ehird> Because it's called Freenode
16:27:47 <ehird> Actually it's freenode, but it's definitely not FreeNode or FreeNOde.
16:34:42 <ehird> i am evil!- and, I have prongs!
16:34:46 <fungot> ehird: and you call yourself a frog, and ayla... i will not betray my friends! you are crono. why not? then you should leave quickly!
16:35:03 <ehird> fungot: can that sword stop alone?
16:35:03 <fungot> ehird: it's a machine that looks like you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out?! hey! is that for us! the chef's in a snit, trying to get food to the front lines. heard a spell to energize the sword takes immense evil! indeed! this thing. what you have the masamune!
16:35:10 <ehird> that's not helpful, fungot
16:35:10 <fungot> ehird: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you!
16:39:59 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net").
16:40:26 -!- ehird_ has joined.
16:42:27 * ehird_ considers biting the bullet and putting all the shit in ~/.cabal
16:42:34 <ehird_> a traitor to my own package manager.
16:43:09 <AnMaster> ehird_, hi there. You used windows 7 right?
16:44:01 <AnMaster> I'm trying to install windows 7 pro x64 (aquired through MSDNAA) in virtualbox but it always claim disk drivers are missing. Tried all the three IDE controller settings, SATA and both SCSI settings
16:44:17 <ehird_> windows 7 pro doesn't exist.
16:44:41 <AnMaster> ehird_, hm sec, laptop booting and I will give you the full product name in a minute or so
16:44:42 <ehird_> anyway, no idea; use something that isn't virtualbox
16:44:47 <ehird_> AnMaster: home premium?
16:45:06 <ehird_> not just Home (presumably Basic)
16:45:44 <AnMaster> ehird_, right, resuming from suspend to disk
16:47:15 <AnMaster> Windows 7 Professional (x64) RTM - DVD (English).iso
16:47:34 <AnMaster> ehird_, sure, a figment of MSDNAA's imagination I bet
16:48:06 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
16:48:08 <Deewiant> Home Premium / Pro / Ultimate are the three editions to the best of my knowledge
16:48:22 <AnMaster> <ehird_> * Professional <-- indeed
16:48:22 <ehird_> Windows 7 will be available in six different editions, but only Home Premium and Professional will be available for retail sale in most countries
16:48:39 <AnMaster> ehird_, the ultimate one wasn't available on MSDNAA
16:48:43 <ehird_> AnMaster: Professional is universally better than Home Starter, so that's fine.
16:48:58 <ehird_> No Subsystem for Unix-based Applications, though. Hah!
16:49:12 <AnMaster> ehird_, well pro was the only one available in fact. There were like 15 entries in the menu for SQL server though
16:49:48 <AnMaster> ehird_, anyway RTM... that means release? or pre-release?
16:49:52 <ehird_> Anyway, VirtualBox can't do Aero IIRC, or at least not very well, and e.g. Windows 7's taskbardockthingy is kinda crippled without it, so I'm not sure why you're bothering with VirtualBox.
16:49:56 <ehird_> AnMaster: Release To Manufacturer.
16:49:58 <AnMaster> I thought windows 7 wasn't available yet
16:50:14 <AnMaster> maybe they release it for MSDNAA earlier
16:50:21 <ehird_> They release it to manufacturers earlier.
16:50:40 <ehird_> Everyone pirating it is using RTM, anyway.
16:50:46 <AnMaster> in any case... any idea about the driver issue?
16:51:00 <ehird_> Yes, but you ignored the two lines in question.
16:51:14 <ehird_> The two ones mentioning VirtualBox.
16:51:28 <AnMaster> <ehird_> anyway, no idea; use something that isn't virtualbox
16:51:47 <ehird_> Yes; commonly refer to one and a one as two.
16:51:48 <AnMaster> ehird_, anyway what else than virtualbox is there? Xen?
16:52:00 <ehird_> AnMaster: Xen isn't actually a proper VM...
16:52:46 <ehird_> Although I'm not sure they have a trial as opposed to the useless VMWare Player thing.
16:52:47 <AnMaster> ehird_, vmware server 2 is a piece of crap. and for 1.x bitrot has ensured the kernel module no longer compiles against recent kernels
16:53:04 <ehird_> It's a piece of crap but it might be a working piece of crap. Also, I'm referring to Workstation.
16:53:11 <ehird_> Which is available for Linux.
16:53:24 <AnMaster> ehird_, would need to pirate it though. Which wasn't in my plans for today.
16:53:48 <ehird_> Then... just make a partition and install it to disk?
16:55:21 <ehird_> You *would* have to use IE for a few seconds, though.
16:55:31 <AnMaster> ehird_, I don't think shrinking an encrypted partition is easy at all
16:55:45 <AnMaster> does windows 7 boot from a usb harddrive?
16:55:46 <ehird_> Plug in a USB drive or something.
16:55:55 <ehird_> It won't be fast, though.
16:55:59 <AnMaster> ok then I just have to find one
16:56:49 <AnMaster> ehird_, windows 7 installer *also* refuses to say what exact piece of hardware is missing a driver
16:57:01 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
16:57:25 -!- coppro has joined.
16:59:02 <ehird_> ehird@ehird-desktop:~$ find /usr/bin/ -name \*enigma\*
16:59:54 <ehird_> Oh lol, I think it was starting enigma from ~/NIH/enigma/, presumably my previous cwd.
17:00:01 <ehird_> I never actually installed the package
17:00:11 <ehird_> Selecting previously deselected package enigma-svn.
17:00:11 <ehird_> (Reading database ... 15%
17:01:09 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:01:29 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird.
17:01:41 <ais523> ok, AFAICT standard data types such as ints and strings must a) exist, and b) use duck typing
17:01:57 -!- ehird has quit ("Ex-Chat").
17:02:09 -!- ehird has joined.
17:02:13 <ais523> which is a great concept
17:02:22 <ehird> did I miss anything
17:02:38 <ehird> Annoying GNOME inconsistency: you can't cancel a drag from the menus (adding a shortcut to the desktop or a panel) with ESC. You have to leave go and remove it manually.
17:03:20 <ais523> the main issue is that the input program needs to be represented somehow
17:03:28 <ais523> and if it's opaque, all Feather programs will need to be quines
17:03:38 <ais523> which is a ridiculous restriction to put on such an unrestricted language
17:03:49 <ais523> (well, not true quines, but able to generate a copy of their own source on demand)
17:04:01 <ehird> that would be great, ais523
17:04:06 <ehird> just add that as part of the language
17:04:14 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:04:16 <ehird> every object responds to "your source", so to speak
17:04:19 <ais523> ehird: that isn't the issue
17:04:25 <ais523> the issue is, what format do you get it in?
17:04:28 <ais523> conclusion: strings exist
17:05:06 <ehird> conclusion: you can interpret some things as srtings
17:05:09 <oerjan> strings are an illusion
17:05:10 <ehird> that doesn't imply any data types
17:05:16 <ehird> otherwise, even Forth has types
17:05:18 <ehird> which is ridiculous
17:05:26 <ais523> anyway, strings are something that the user's likely to want to define at some point
17:05:34 <ais523> and at that point, we want the program to also be that sort of string
17:05:44 <ais523> this is what lead me to the conclusion that standard data types use duck typing
17:05:46 <oerjan> also, string theory is just mathematical masturbation </ducks>
17:06:29 <ehird> ais523: how on earth do you do VI#89?
17:06:58 <ais523> I've actually done that one
17:07:03 <ais523> which bit are you stuck on? the first bit?
17:07:12 <ais523> it involves strategically placed items to block the lasers
17:07:16 <ehird> I get the spade, but then can't enter the path to V
17:07:21 <ehird> because the laser gets me
17:07:24 <ais523> note that you start with a couple of extralives in your inventory
17:07:43 <ais523> the trick's to block the laser with the spade (which is even harder then getting the spade in the first place)
17:07:56 <ais523> in such a way that you can get past the downwards laser too
17:08:05 <ehird> getting the spade is easy, just wait until the laser goes and then shoot downwards
17:08:17 <ehird> (before just now, when I figured that out, I was trying to hit the metal switch stones while the lasers were off - try THAT for impossible)
17:09:42 <ais523> ehird: it wouldn't help, I don't think
17:09:58 <ehird> grr, pidgin is so crashy
17:10:01 <ehird> but empathy is moreso :(
17:13:33 <ehird> i mean what stack are you using
17:13:42 <coppro> trying to find one that works
17:13:53 <coppro> pulseaudio in particular is rather bad right now
17:14:05 <ehird> your hardware sucks :P
17:14:07 <ehird> use ossv4 or something
17:14:24 <ehird> ais523: is there numpad support in enigma?
17:14:35 <ais523> ehird: for what? movement?
17:14:42 <ais523> IIRC, planned but not implemented
17:14:48 <coppro> see, you misunderstand what I want
17:14:56 <coppro> I just want a sound stack that makes all applications have sound
17:15:05 <ehird> use ossv4 or something.
17:15:13 <ehird> and stop whining, if you buy unsupported hardware guess what, it doesn't work
17:15:38 <coppro> this is linux; all hardware is unsupported
17:15:47 <ehird> no, that's not true, stop trolling
17:16:20 <coppro> ehird: fine then. Tell me how to set this up
17:17:22 <ehird> ok then, pay me and i will
17:17:58 <ehird> but uhh, sudo apt-get purge pulseaudio alsa-*; sudo apt-get autoremove --purge; find_and_install_ossv4_package
17:18:06 <ehird> i just use pulseaudio + alsa and it works fine.
17:18:13 <coppro> sure, but pulse hates me
17:18:19 <ehird> well, it might be lagged; I can't tell
17:18:32 <ais523> I just went through the options on the sound menu until I found one that worked
17:18:35 <ais523> in fact, IIRC they all work
17:18:40 <ais523> ALSA, OSS /and/ PulseAudio
17:18:44 <ais523> on this system, at least
17:18:50 <ehird> that's because pulseaudio talks to alsa and oss is just alsa's oss wrapper.
17:18:54 <coppro> done that; the hardware works fine, but not through pulse
17:19:02 <ehird> surprise! three things work if they're all the same
17:20:21 <ais523> ehird: if they're all the same, why is there a choice?
17:20:36 <ehird> ais523: because pulseaudio is an additional layer over ALSA, and so can do more,
17:20:38 <ais523> hmm... what have I messed up here?
17:20:42 <ais523> ah, HackEgo isn't here
17:20:43 <ehird> and because ALSA exposes its OSS interface as, you know, OSS
17:20:45 <ehird> so it shows up as... OSS.
17:21:03 <ehird> the OSS in question is v3, which sucks ass
17:21:08 <AnMaster> ehird, "A required CD/DVD drive device driver is missing. If you have a floppy disk, CD, DVD or USB flash driver, please insert it now." <-- I get that in virtualbox, and I get it when trying to boot the actual computer with the cd too
17:21:13 <AnMaster> and yes that is *after* I select install
17:21:19 <ehird> v4 apparently has sloppy code and could never get into the kernel, but apparently works excellently and with really tiny latency
17:21:26 <AnMaster> so I think it is saying that there is no device driver for the CD *drive*
17:21:36 <coppro> does it let more than one application at once use sound?
17:21:42 <ehird> coppro: are you serious
17:21:43 <ehird> even OSS does that
17:21:50 <ehird> you've gotta be trolling
17:21:58 <coppro> ehird: not over here it doesn't!
17:22:12 <ehird> stop buying unsupported hardware.
17:22:15 <ehird> AnMaster: "don't know"
17:22:32 <ehird> just use not-virtualbox :P
17:22:48 <ehird> AnMaster: you're using the closed source virtualbox right
17:23:07 <AnMaster> ehird, yes indeed. But the same message happened on the real hardware!
17:23:28 <ehird> ais523: I can't get any ball to get onto the lines in VIII#43...
17:23:35 <coppro> ehird: some applications can run concurrently. But others refuse to
17:23:40 -!- coppro has quit ("I am leaving. You are about to explode.").
17:23:57 <ais523> ehird: I can do 1 on that level, but nor more
17:24:07 <ais523> I suspect there's a trick but don't know what it is
17:24:17 -!- coppro has joined.
17:24:26 <AnMaster> ehird, also all the disks are listed in the "browse for driver" in virtualbox (formatted the virtual c: drive from inside virtual win xp to check if it was that that was broken)
17:24:40 <ehird> don't make a partition
17:24:43 <ehird> let it partition it itself
17:25:04 <ehird> ais523: ok, VIII#42 is just evil
17:25:27 <ais523> in hard, though, just wow
17:25:36 <ais523> set your mouseforce up to 15 on negative-friction levels, by the way
17:25:37 <ehird> even on mouse speed 1...
17:25:54 <ais523> you'll need it to resist
17:28:47 <ehird> also, is there a button to update the scores instead ofj ustb eing auto?
17:28:49 <ais523> there are lots of equally what levels
17:28:54 <ais523> and no, I don't think so
17:29:06 <ais523> likewise, disincentives to upload scores too often
17:29:17 <ais523> perhaps it's illmind operating the score download server :)
17:29:45 <ehird> are you kidding, that's like 1,000 numbers
17:29:54 <ehird> he could never afford the bandwidth
17:32:06 <ehird> Mad Data, with the permission of Dongleware, has produced an official Freeware game with the name "Oxyd extra v2.0" (see external links below).
17:32:12 <ehird> wonder when we'll see that in Enigma :P
17:40:40 -!- kar8nga has joined.
17:44:22 * ehird reads someone on reddit call the > quoting syntax a "fancy hack" and using the literal character | instead, and when people point out that that breaks horribly on wrapping lines tells them to resize their browser to be huge
17:46:47 <ais523> not as good as <font color="#FFFFFF">aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa</font> to cause line wrapping
17:47:20 <ehird> I've seen a site emulating table width="100%" with a long sentence coloured as the background congratulating you for finding the secret.
17:47:35 <ehird> "FINO works by withholding all scheduled tasks permanently. No matter how many tasks are scheduled at any time, no task ever actually takes place. This makes FINO extremely simple to implement" --Wikipedia
17:48:11 <ehird> int32 is_computer_on(void)
17:48:12 <ehird> Returns 1 if the computer is on. If the computer isn't on, the value returned by this function is undefined.
17:48:12 <ehird> double is_computer_on_fire(void)
17:48:12 <ehird> Returns the temperature of the motherboard if the computer is currently on fire. If the computer isn't on fire, the function returns some other value.
17:55:12 <AnMaster> <ehird> "FINO works by withholding all scheduled tasks permanently. No matter how many tasks are scheduled at any time, no task ever actually takes place. This makes FINO extremely simple to implement" --Wikipedia <-- a joke? On wikipedia?
17:55:24 <ehird> I *did* omit the ending of that last sentence...
17:55:53 <ehird> ", but useless in practice."
17:57:18 <AnMaster> ehird, and those "is_computer_on" and "is_computer_on_fire" are really in BeOS? ^_Å
17:58:18 <ehird> Well, in some class.
17:59:21 <ais523> someone just asked me what chatroom I was in
17:59:24 <ais523> and I pointed to the logs of this place
17:59:40 <ais523> I have no idea what the effect will be
17:59:51 <ais523> but the firewall on the desktops here blocks port 6667 outbound, so likely nothing we'll notice
18:00:16 <ais523> (as in, beyond the barrier of beingbotheredness compared to the typical difficulty)
18:00:22 <AnMaster> MSNAA provides MS-DOS too it seems
18:00:28 <ehird> it's unlikely that anyone who calls it a chatroom will be able to access IRC.
18:00:45 <ehird> AnMaster: do you pretty much have free range over MSNAA or something?
18:00:50 <ehird> write a script to download all of it
18:01:16 <AnMaster> ehird, you can only install any once and have to install them while you are still studying. Oh and I don't have enough disk space
18:01:25 <ais523> AnMaster: you mean MSDNAA?
18:01:48 <ais523> in theory I can access it here, but I've never tried
18:01:54 <ehird> you can only install them once?
18:01:54 <ehird> what a crock of shit
18:01:56 <ais523> besides, most of what they do isn't compatible with Linux
18:02:47 <AnMaster> however a bit strange because office isn't supposed to be part of this
18:02:58 <ehird> how shocking, everything but the OSs are worthless.
18:03:00 <AnMaster> oh wait, that isn't actually office
18:03:16 <AnMaster> those are various office addons it seems
18:03:27 <AnMaster> ehird, what about: <option value="540">Windows Services for UNIX 3.0</option>
18:03:41 <ehird> interix sucks, probably
18:04:05 <AnMaster> ehird, well first I want to get that win7 pro rtm to actually install
18:04:13 <AnMaster> and if it doesn't even on actual hardware...
18:04:40 <AnMaster> ehird, visual studio isn't that useless. I mean, SQL server is way more useless
18:05:23 <ehird> the OSs, visual studio and maybe Interix
18:05:30 <ais523> visual studio is allegedly quite good for development in Microsoft languages
18:05:33 <ehird> how fast are the downloads?
18:05:34 <ais523> although I've hardly used it
18:07:31 <AnMaster> ehird, maxed out connection at home (820 KB/s or so), widly varying at uni (everything from 200 bytes/s to 1.5 MB/s)
18:08:18 <ehird> 820 KiB maxes out that university connection?
18:08:22 -!- Asztal has joined.
18:08:42 <AnMaster> ehird, and 1.5 MB/s doesn't nearly max out uni connection at all
18:08:59 <ehird> The uni will be able to get at least 12.5MiB/s.
18:09:02 <AnMaster> and I was even within view of base station
18:09:32 <AnMaster> ehird, a bit less, I managed 8 mbps off peek hours over the wlan
18:09:40 <AnMaster> but nowhere near that at peak hours
18:09:41 <ehird> Uhh, mbps = megabits.
18:09:54 <ehird> So that's ~1MiB/s.
18:10:04 <ehird> It's not a bit less, it's about 10x less.
18:10:24 <AnMaster> and that is MiB in your notation even
18:10:42 <ehird> That isn't what you said (and that's megabytes, i.e. decimal, i.e. 7.62MiB anyway).
18:10:46 <ehird> Not my notation; the standard notation.
18:11:03 <AnMaster> ehird, I refuse to use MiB when I mean base 1024
18:11:06 <ehird> b is a bit, B is a byte, SI prefixes (except possibly for kiB or KiB) followed by i = binary.
18:11:19 <AnMaster> ehird, and as I said the b was a typo
18:11:30 <AnMaster> according to that it should have been millibyte per second
18:11:32 <ehird> At least you could be consistent while being contrarian.
18:12:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I see you never heard of typos
18:12:31 <ehird> You seem awfully selective about your standards; POSIX is mandatory and unit standards are ignorable. Are we going to start seeing selective application of POSIX selections, or is it atomic at the standard level? Fun and arbitrariness.
18:12:47 <AnMaster> ehird, btw windows xp pro 64-bit installs just fine so it isn't a 64-bit issue in general it seems
18:13:23 <AnMaster> ehird, EFI is a standard too. And you can't argue that is good
18:14:08 <ehird> Yes, but there is an alternative to EFI; BIOS.
18:14:29 <ais523> what's wrong with EFI?
18:14:40 <ais523> just curious, not claiming it's necessarily good
18:14:43 <ehird> Anyway, I could just start talking in Lojban and that'd be perfectly valid too. But when we're talking in English, using differing units just to spite the other party is hostile and makes you a jerk.
18:14:55 <ehird> ais523: "what if we used a full OS... to boot the OS?"
18:15:06 <ehird> "with drivers and command shells and a kernel and applications!!! YAAAAY"
18:15:46 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:15:50 <ais523> the arguments in favour of it I've seen is that BIOS isn't designed for anything but keyboards, screens, floppy drives, parallel ports, and serial ports
18:16:06 <ehird> Very true. On the other hand, EFI is shit.
18:16:28 <AnMaster> ais523, there is a good alternative though: open firmware
18:16:40 <ehird> have you actually used OpenFirmware?
18:16:49 <ehird> the forth is fun but configuring it is a huge bitch
18:16:55 <ehird> and it's not easy to diagnose problems
18:17:01 <ehird> it's fun, but not practical
18:18:06 <ehird> grr, keyserver.ubuntu.com is slow enough that gpg times out
18:20:32 <ehird> Yay, it finally worked.
18:20:34 -!- impomatic has joined.
18:24:57 <ehird> First few seconds impressions of Chromium on Linux: It still draws its own window border. Ow, my eyes. Hey, it looks like they fixed the font rendering... but... it looks kinda different to normal. What why are they drawing their own scrollbars WHAT IS THE POINT OF THAT
18:25:18 <AnMaster> <option value="1136">Microsoft Healthcare Framework SDK</option>
18:25:40 <ehird> Microsoft healthcare? Sounds like a superb idea!
18:25:46 <ais523> ehird: what do you think of Chrome Frame
18:25:48 <AnMaster> <ehird> have you actually used OpenFirmware? <-- yes I have. On a PPC mac
18:25:57 <AnMaster> of course you don't use it a lot normally there
18:25:59 <ehird> ais523: It's a cute hack.
18:26:06 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, well, it Just Works there.
18:26:20 <ehird> Even EFI is great if it's working.
18:26:59 <ehird> More impressions: The Greyscale theme hurts my eyes less than that awful blue. Hey, can I get rid of that home button? Yes. Yes I can.
18:27:16 <ehird> "Use system title bar and borders" Yay.
18:27:29 <ehird> Oh, that just makes it look like Opera with its custom tab bar, really. :P
18:27:53 <ehird> You can make it use the GTK theme's colours and icons. That would be nice, but it makes the background of the tab bar be dark brown...
18:27:55 <AnMaster> ehird, screenshot of the custom title bar and such. And screenshot of it now
18:28:07 <ehird> What do you mean, screenshot of it now?
18:28:17 <AnMaster> ehird, well, when it "<ehird> Oh, that just makes it look like Opera with its custom tab bar, really. :P"
18:28:41 <ehird> Well, it's just the window border followed by the custom widgets on a tab bar that make me think of Opera, really.
18:28:43 <ehird> Well, and a black background.
18:29:12 <ehird> Hmm, system colours + drawing its own title bar will probably work best; the brown tab bar looks fine if it's blended in with the window title like on Windows.
18:29:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I haven't used opera for years. When I think of opera I still see the version after they made it freeware
18:29:42 <ehird> http://www.cafesurvey.com/static/images/browsers/opera10_linux.png
18:30:00 <FireFly> That's not the current tab bar
18:30:06 <ehird> But it's close enough.
18:30:13 <AnMaster> the colours there doesn't really fit
18:30:29 <ehird> Yeah, the text hinting in Chromium has some real fuckedupness going on.
18:30:42 <AnMaster> "Finalising installation" "Saving settings". ETA: 8 minutes
18:30:44 <ehird> Letters are detaching from their pals to high-five their unsavory neighbours.
18:30:54 <ehird> that's the ETA for the total installation
18:32:06 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but it has already been "saving settings" for over 4 minutes
18:32:42 <ehird> It's probably frozen.
18:32:52 <AnMaster> not really, harddrive working a lot
18:33:01 <AnMaster> just saving settings all the time
18:33:36 <ehird> Okay, Chromium? Chromium? Why are you drawing our own form widgets. I guess that explains the scrollbar. Stop that.
18:34:25 <AnMaster> maybe I should try the 32-bit win 7 pro... it might work better. Maybe
18:34:41 <AnMaster> at least based on googling on the issue I hit
18:34:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Probably the best idea; there aren't such a wide variety of 64-bit drivers.
18:34:56 <ais523> ehird: any idea why people /don't/ use native widgets?
18:34:59 <ehird> And also, no applications are 64-bit, pretty much, so everything will go in C:\Program Files (x86) anyway.
18:35:08 <ais523> I have done in almost everything
18:35:10 <AnMaster> ais523, because what are the native widgets on linux?
18:35:12 <ais523> except DNA Maze, for some weird reason
18:35:16 <ehird> ais523: Well, Chromium does it on Windows for quite a good reason.
18:35:20 <ehird> AnMaster: It uses gtk, so invalid argument, stfu.
18:35:32 <ais523> on Linux, the native widgets depend on your DE
18:35:33 <AnMaster> ehird, it uses GTK *and* draws it's own?
18:35:49 <ehird> Yes, it draws it is own.
18:36:03 <AnMaster> btw there is a QT theme to use GTK and iirc a GTK theme to use QT
18:36:20 <ehird> One of them has a saveguard against that.
18:36:53 <ais523> you could disable it and then try
18:37:02 <ais523> I wonder when and why it was added, though?
18:37:04 <ehird> It'd just draw blank.
18:37:09 <ehird> Also, because someone tried it? :P
18:37:17 <ais523> it could have been in GTK from the start, but if not, someone must have tried it
18:37:23 <ais523> ok, let's do GTK and Athena at the same time
18:37:47 <ehird> it's in qgtkstyle or whatever
18:38:07 <AnMaster> huh? No need to activate this windows install? *blink*
18:38:17 <ehird> AnMaster: it bugs you later.
18:38:25 <ais523> activation happens after install in Windows
18:38:25 <ehird> and will disable after n days
18:38:30 <ehird> also, you can only install one xp copy so many times
18:38:33 <AnMaster> ais523, yes that is what I thought too
18:38:36 <ais523> you're allowed to use it for 30 days without activationm IIRC
18:38:41 <ehird> have fun downloading an activator
18:38:57 <ais523> ehird: if it's MSDNAA, you could get the activation code pretty easily
18:38:58 <AnMaster> ehird, also I never installed this copy before
18:38:59 <ais523> although only the once
18:39:56 <AnMaster> just iirc it always did it before login before
18:41:42 <ehird> Oh well, no way I'm using Chromium as my main browser.
18:41:54 -!- deschutron has joined.
18:42:04 * ehird deschutes deschutron
18:42:38 <deschutron> i was coming to eavesdrop on some conversation
18:42:52 <ehird> that's illegal, sir
18:43:11 <ehird> we all wonder about irrigation sometimes, deschutron.
18:43:17 <deschutron> i wrote an interactive shell in one of my variants of SNUSP
18:43:23 <ehird> but we just have to get along, you know, and try not to think about irrigation too much, you understand?
18:43:32 <AnMaster> deschutron, are you new here or?
18:43:52 <ehird> he may have been here once, twice or 5746583465 times here before, pick one
18:43:57 <AnMaster> ehird, that isn't nice to a new user
18:44:08 <ehird> what, talking about irrigation? i'm so sorry
18:44:15 <ehird> deschutron: i didn't mean to upset your virgin ears :(
18:44:38 <ehird> AnMaster: he's been here before.
18:45:01 <deschutron> anyway i wrote a neat program in an esoteric language. i'd like to show it off
18:45:07 <ais523> and here is a good place
18:45:08 <ehird> absolutely forbidden!
18:45:13 <ais523> when ehird and AnMaster stop bickering, at least
18:45:16 <ehird> ais523: we must fight to the death,.
18:45:21 <ais523> this place could do with being on-topic some of the time at least
18:45:23 <ehird> with commas and full stops,.
18:45:36 <ehird> that'd just be boring
18:45:43 <ais523> I'm here because I find esolangs interesting
18:46:05 <ehird> there's a thing called community and it pretty much requires offtopicity.
18:46:24 <ehird> artificially censoring the channel to one topic helps nobody, it's just antagonistic; the fact is that esolangs move slowly
18:46:33 <ehird> and if someone wants to talk about esolangs we're not exactly going to stop them
18:46:34 <ais523> I wouldn't want an artifical censor
18:46:45 <ehird> that's what being on topic is; conversation flows
18:46:45 <ais523> I'd prefer a /natural/ censor, as in people talked about esolangs because they're a good subject
18:46:50 <ais523> I mean, I was talking about Feather earlier
18:46:52 <ais523> but was mostly ignored
18:46:59 <ehird> because I had nothing to say
18:47:03 <ehird> it was interesting
18:47:04 <ais523> partly because thinking about Feather drives everyone mad, I suppose
18:47:09 <ehird> but I didn't have many comments
18:47:16 <ais523> anyway, I should be able to get a reference interp out relatively soon now I hope
18:47:24 <ais523> which /would/ be progress
18:47:28 <ehird> that's the thing, there isn't enough happening in esolangs to talk about it all the time, and the only way we can have fun esolang discussions is having a community, so...
18:47:39 <ehird> ais523: I still think it's a non-concept
18:47:41 <ais523> not really implementing anything of the language beyond a bare-bones ability to retroactively change the interp
18:47:44 <ais523> which is all you need, of course
18:47:51 <ehird> deschutron: you seriously did not want to ask that
18:47:56 <ais523> deschutron: an unreleased esolang of mine
18:48:03 <ais523> pressing for more details is liable to cause madness
18:48:12 <ais523> especially as /I/ go mad thinking about it, and I invented it
18:48:27 <ehird> deschutron: nice knowing you
18:48:36 <ais523> it's basically an attempt to make a decent prototype-based proper OO programming language
18:48:52 <ais523> except that it involves retroactive changes to things
18:48:57 <ais523> in order to do inheritance, originally
18:49:02 <ais523> and then generalised out into other thins
18:49:04 <AnMaster> so going to try google chrome in the virtualbox
18:49:21 <AnMaster> another alternative would have been opera I guess
18:49:23 <ehird> AnMaster: good idea, but note that the title bar on XP and vista/7 without aero is kinda ugly
18:49:25 <FireFly> Wait, Feather actually _exists_?
18:49:36 <ais523> so the idea is, instead of delegation or anything like that, you simply change all the child objects at the time they were created
18:49:40 <ehird> AnMaster: right, it's just a bit ugly
18:49:46 <ehird> the rest of it's perfect though
18:49:47 <ais523> but as I go mad thinking about it, and nobody else really knows what I mean
18:49:51 <FireFly> Well, exists as in the idea is actually serious
18:49:52 <ais523> there isn't an interp or anything like that yet
18:49:57 <ais523> there are some notes somewhere, but they're wrong
18:49:58 <FireFly> I thought it was an ongoing joke to talk about it
18:50:08 <AnMaster> ehird, cursed be widescreen laptops indeed.
18:50:13 <ais523> FireFly: from ehird's point of view, it is, I don't think he thinks I'm serious
18:50:20 <ais523> and as I said, I go mad thinking about it, so maybe I'm not
18:50:24 <ehird> ais523: I do, I'm just skeptical that the idea can exist, per se
18:50:32 <ehird> ais523: like, it's trying to feel every part of a klein bottle in a 3d world
18:50:32 <AnMaster> ehird, virtualbox window hight < chrome window height.
18:50:36 <ehird> you can project it onto the 3d world in various ways
18:50:40 <deschutron> what do you mean by a retroactive change?
18:50:40 <ehird> but you can never capture every aspect like that
18:50:47 <ehird> is becausey ou'er thinking of different projections
18:50:51 <ehird> and they're inconsistent
18:50:59 <ehird> basically, feather cannot be expressed
18:51:02 <ais523> deschutron: basically, you calculate what state the program would be in if the change had been made at some earlier point in time
18:51:05 <ehird> it's inconsistent in our universe
18:51:07 <ais523> then change the program state to that
18:51:26 <AnMaster> ais523, is it possible to express paradoxes in feather?
18:51:29 <ais523> strangely, the operation needed to do this almost already exists, it's a trivial variant of call/cc, and can easily be implemented in terms of it
18:51:33 <AnMaster> something like killing your own grand-interpreter?
18:51:33 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, they cause infinite loops
18:51:41 <ehird> ais523: do you get what I mean about non-concept?
18:51:42 <ais523> although, that isn't a true two-way paradox
18:51:52 <FireFly> ais523, have you ever written/tried to express something of this online?
18:51:58 <FireFly> As in, a .txt document or something
18:52:02 <ais523> FireFly: sort-of, I pasted some notes on pastebin.ca ages ago
18:52:08 <ais523> as I said, though, they're wrong
18:52:14 <ais523> and so I don't know if they're useful or harmful
18:52:35 <deschutron> so a feather program can change the prior state abject it was cloned from, and then all the effects of that change are calculated and applied to the machine's state?
18:52:50 <ais523> deschutron: pretty much
18:52:52 <AnMaster> ehird, chrome sure lacks some options. Like "ask about every cookie"
18:52:56 <ehird> ais523 is ignoring me because i'm crazy :)
18:53:00 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, because that's infeasible
18:53:05 <ehird> because every site uses like 5 cookies
18:53:08 <ais523> ehird: I've used that setting before now
18:53:14 <AnMaster> ehird, you just click "remember for site"
18:53:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Chrome also sends a bunch of details to Google by default and updates in the background, so if you're crazy and paranoid why are you using it?
18:53:51 <ehird> you have to use that Iron fork thing to avoid that
18:53:55 <AnMaster> ehird, well it isn't like I'll use that vm for a lot
18:54:01 <ehird> so why are you bothered
18:54:24 <AnMaster> ehird, because I was evaluating it for possible usage elsewhere
18:54:42 <ehird> well, it's only any good on windows and i don't imagine you use many windows machines...
18:55:45 <AnMaster> ehird, what about antivirus for 64-bit windows?
18:56:01 <FireFly> What about anti-MINDvirus?
18:56:13 <ehird> AnMaster: just use a 32-bit one? I'm pretty sure they work
18:56:14 <deschutron> ais523: your feather idea sounds interesting, though i don't know whether it provides any convenience at all
18:56:16 <ehird> or, use a 64-bit one
18:56:20 <ais523> deschutron: I doubt it does
18:56:31 <ehird> AnMaster: NOD32 is fine if you don't mind pirating, otherwise use the new one Microsoft released which I think is Vista/7 only
18:56:32 <ais523> it seems to provide an incredible amount of power, at the cost of going mad trying to write it
18:56:40 <AnMaster> ehird, antivirus tends to use drivers to hook in to low level
18:56:44 <deschutron> what happens if an object kills its grandfather
18:56:44 <AnMaster> so I doubt a 32-bit one would work
18:56:59 <ais523> deschutron: it doesn't exist in the new timeline
18:57:07 <ehird> The built-in Windows firewall is fine
18:57:07 <ais523> timelines only have to be consistent in one direction
18:57:08 <deschutron> ie wipes the memory of its grabdfather object at a time before its parent was made
18:57:21 <ais523> as in, actions in deleted parts of timelines can affect the current ones
18:57:26 <ehird> AnMaster: mostly, though, you don't get random viruses nowadays
18:57:29 <ehird> at least not with SP3
18:57:43 <ais523> this avoids the grandfather paradox neatly, although not certain other sorts of paradoxes
18:57:51 <ehird> there's basically no known ways to run some code without running something vaguely executable yourself
18:57:52 <AnMaster> ehird, heck this is sp1... installing upgrades atm
18:58:23 <deschutron> but then some results of the change are carried forward, but some are not, right>
18:58:45 <ais523> well, all changes are carried forwards
18:58:50 <ais523> and if that wipes out the source of the change, so be it
18:59:18 <deschutron> suppose you have two separate objects A and B
18:59:19 <ais523> one of the major issues in actual programming (which I've thought about, but not tried) is to ensure that changing things that happened early on don't completely destroy the logic of your program
18:59:31 <ais523> unless, of course, you're doing that deliberately, but why would you?
18:59:36 <ais523> ok, two objects are fine
19:00:06 <deschutron> and A wipes B's grandparent before B is made.
19:00:24 <ehird> ais523: what happens if you make true haven-alwaysbeen false?
19:00:25 <ais523> well, in that timeline, it never existed in the first place
19:00:34 <ehird> does the interpreter just explode infinitely and give up?
19:00:41 <ais523> deschutron: same thing, no paradox under Feather's rules
19:00:54 <ais523> ehird: anything that actually depended on them being different would probably retroactively break
19:01:05 <ais523> leading to something hard to distinguish from undefined behaviour
19:01:08 <ehird> ais523: like, say, the original interpreter
19:01:19 <ehird> which interprets itself, and so BOOM?
19:01:35 <ais523> well, not exactly BOOM, the resulting code would do /something/
19:01:40 <ais523> it would be unlikely to be useful, though
19:01:48 <ais523> I mean, just see what true become: false does in Smalltalk
19:01:58 <ehird> but it can't; you can't interpret the original interpreter if true is false
19:02:03 <ais523> it would be pretty similar, retroactivity doesn't make that any more of a disaster than it is imperatively
19:02:20 <deschutron> so then if an object kills its grandfather, its future actions are nullified, but its past ones are not
19:02:27 <ais523> deschutron: yes, that's it
19:02:38 <ehird> hmm... can time be removed from Feather?
19:02:43 <ais523> ehird: well, yes, so it would probably break before (in that timeline) the program ever got to run
19:02:50 <ehird> like, ther is no progression of time, everything has to be done retroactively
19:02:53 <ais523> ehird: possibly; it depends on what you mean by that
19:03:06 <ais523> everything is immutable in Feather
19:03:06 <ehird> like, isn't the mechanism of advancing in the program redundant if you can manipulate time retroactively?
19:03:10 <ais523> but then, it is in lambda calculus too
19:03:37 <ais523> ehird: I see what you're saying; I think that's the Feather equivalent of a trampoline, or something like taht
19:04:02 <ehird> I don't really understand what I'm proposing, but then I don't understand Feather either
19:04:25 <ehird> it just seems like having everything work retroactively on a single point of unchanging non-time is way more elegant than ugly time and its progression
19:04:29 <ais523> but I'm getting a grasp on how it works simply by observations about what couldn't work, and what I can't find a contradiction in
19:06:46 <deschutron> A has a variable x; x = 0; A sets x's initial value to 10; x = 10
19:06:46 <deschutron> A has a variable x; x = 0; A sets 0 to x + 1; x = 1; A sets x's initial value to 10; x = 1
19:07:30 <ais523> err, what do you mean by "x = 0" here?
19:07:38 <ais523> you can't change the current values of things, only the initial values
19:08:55 <AnMaster> ehird, I know why the ISO doesn't work "error reading" for lots of files on it
19:09:26 -!- Cerise has changed nick to Jerry.
19:10:01 -!- adam_d has quit (Connection timed out).
19:10:13 <AnMaster> and microsoft even made you download an *.exe supposed to download the whole thing
19:10:46 <deschutron> an alternative solution to the grandfather paradox is that the environment detects it and throws an exception, which the program uses as part of its control flow
19:11:19 <ehird> more programs need to have a ui like darcs. i think.
19:11:36 <deschutron> you could have programs deliberately causing paradoxes, just to cause the effects they need to operate. if blocks could be implemented with paradoxes
19:11:40 <Asztal> AnMaster: is that MSDNAA? I had to download visual studio 4 times... the downloader is awful
19:11:58 <ais523> deschutron: well, pretty much every change to the language is a paradox in a way
19:12:07 <ais523> in that the program that caused it means something else in the new language
19:12:22 <ais523> the thing that gets ehird mad is the concept of retroactively changing things in the interpreter itself
19:12:27 <ais523> but it's a generalisation of the same concept, really
19:12:42 <ais523> all you have to do is box it (make it able to change retroactively), and give a copy of it to the program
19:12:44 <ehird> like crazy or upset
19:12:51 <ais523> ehird: well, thinking it won't work
19:12:58 <ehird> no, that's not true
19:13:08 <ehird> and I've never said either of those things
19:13:21 <ehird> there are plenty of things that won't work; I think Feather is more than simply not-working
19:13:27 <ehird> like, if we have willWork(p)
19:13:32 <ehird> you say I think ~willWork(feather)
19:13:40 <ehird> whereas I think you can't even give "feather" a value
19:13:54 <ehird> i.e., it's inexpressable in the logic of our universe, and maybe we need a more flexible universe with better logic to have Feather
19:13:58 <ehird> I'm not entirely serious about it
19:14:04 <ehird> but it would explain the insanity
19:14:08 <AnMaster> <Asztal> AnMaster: is that MSDNAA? I had to download visual studio 4 times... the downloader is awful <-- yes it is
19:14:29 <AnMaster> Asztal, and that will be a bit painful for windows 7 pro...
19:14:30 <ais523> I have a brilliant method for dealing with the apparent causality paradoxen, I think
19:14:36 <ais523> but I don't feel up to explaining it right now
19:14:51 <AnMaster> heck the downloader even said "Checking CRC"
19:15:13 <ehird> you want crc to be reliable on a multi-jiggabyte file?
19:15:24 <AnMaster> ehird, no I want it to use something saner
19:15:37 <ais523> CRC's excellent at detecting accidental errors
19:15:45 <ais523> although it isn't good at detecting deliberate ones
19:16:03 <AnMaster> ais523, it failed in this case. the iso is cut short at 3 GB and it should be something closer to twice that I think
19:16:30 <ehird> DVDs can only do about 4GB normally or thereabouts
19:16:36 <ehird> and Windows 7 doesn't, afaik, require a dual-layer DVD
19:16:40 <ehird> in fact, I know it doesn't for a fact
19:16:54 <AnMaster> does dual side, dual layer even exist?
19:16:56 <ehird> because the burning tool I used told me I could use a single-layer when I gave it a dual-layer to write to
19:17:04 <ehird> dual layer dvds are like 9GB
19:17:30 <ehird> it's 3.9GB, I think
19:17:49 <AnMaster> so dual would be slightly less than 8?
19:18:07 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD%2BR_DL
19:18:11 <Asztal> I tried downloading it from a friend, but I apparently used some version of wget that looped around to -2.1GB when it reached 2GB, and then crashed.
19:18:18 <ehird> 4.7GB single layer
19:18:29 <AnMaster> Asztal, maybe I should download MSDO 6.0 from MSDNAA?
19:18:38 <ehird> i didn't mean double layer
19:18:41 <ehird> i meant double side
19:18:44 <ehird> "~17.08 GB (rare—double-sided, double-layer)"
19:18:56 <ehird> well, okay, don't want
19:19:43 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc they are/were tricky to manufacture
19:19:51 <AnMaster> as in, issues getting them flat when gluing all the layers together
19:19:54 <deschutron> A != B. A changes B's past, B's previous behaviour changes, A reads from B and prints to screen. A changes B's past again, B's previous behaviour changes, A reads from B again. B is effectively a method. no paradoxes occur here either
19:19:57 <AnMaster> was years ago I read that though
19:20:05 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
19:20:06 <ehird> i could do with a non-flat dvd
19:20:10 <deschutron> A changes A's past. A becomes undefined. An exception is thrown. A's creator receives it and reacts to it.
19:20:17 <ehird> like, I'd totally love an orb storage mechanism
19:20:24 <ais523> deschutron: that sort of thing seems reasonable
19:20:25 <ehird> there's a tray in front of the monitor
19:20:25 <AnMaster> ehird, sure. As decoration. Doesn't actually work in a computer though
19:20:28 <deschutron> let A's creator = C, and look back in time to before A existed.
19:20:28 <ehird> and you throw it in
19:20:30 <ehird> and it shoots it into the reader
19:20:38 <deschutron> C creates A to do some stuff for it. C waits for a paradox exception. C recieves and knows that A has done its work. C performs its next task.
19:20:40 <ais523> worryingly, I think you probably /have/ to program in that sort of way, and that's what makes Feather an esolang
19:20:46 <ehird> get the beautifully-decorated album orb from the shelf
19:20:50 <ehird> throw it into the monitor's tray
19:20:54 <ais523> although, you wouldn't exactly get a paradox exception
19:20:56 <ehird> it's sucked in and starts reading
19:20:59 <deschutron> It is undefined whether A did anything, but the output cannot be undone. C has successfully manipulated time to its own ends. The user's experience is as if they are travelling in a Tardis.
19:21:03 <ais523> you'd just find that the object you just created nevertheless no longer exists
19:21:07 <ais523> which would be a giveaway
19:21:11 <oerjan> the orb storage will be short-lived, after everyone gets fed up with fetching them after they roll away
19:21:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, well I'm fed up with cds/dvds falling on floor and being hard to pick up
19:22:12 <oerjan> i am slightly worried by the fact AnMaster seems to get my jokes best these days
19:22:18 <ais523> deschutron: have you seen the TRDS extension to Befunge?
19:22:25 <ais523> it's not unlike Feather, in a way
19:22:28 <ais523> just doesn't go nearly as far
19:22:38 <ais523> basically, it lets you preserve and rewind state
19:22:42 <deschutron> i think i might have just found a possible line between what is undone and what isn't
19:22:48 <ais523> Deewiant here understands it well enough to have writen a testsuite
19:22:55 <ehird> i think cubes would be better than orbs
19:23:06 <ehird> but those'd be less fun to decorate
19:23:09 <ais523> deschutron: I/O is a real pain in Feather, for this sort of reason
19:23:21 <ais523> I'm planning to get the rest of the language done first and then see if there's a natural way to do I/O
19:23:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, sqrt(-garfield) was really funny today IMO
19:23:30 <ais523> as it isn't all that important computationally
19:23:53 -!- oerjan has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
19:23:54 -!- olsner has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
19:24:11 <deschutron> you could have it such that each object has two methods of communication: one convenient one like functions or direct manipulation, and one other like writing to standard out
19:24:12 <AnMaster> <ehird> but those'd be less fun to decorate [your xmas tree with]
19:24:21 <AnMaster> wait what, "logging off" in windows is WAY from the center
19:24:35 <ehird> AnMaster: that's the design
19:24:40 <ais523> deschutron: well, the language is called Feather because the language itself is bare-bones
19:24:41 <deschutron> actions in the convenient are undone by changes to previous states
19:24:42 <ehird> normally, in the login screen, to the left is "welcome"
19:24:50 <ehird> and to the right (where that logging off text is) is the users
19:24:54 <ais523> and you're meant to use standardish headers, etc, to create the language features you want at runtime
19:24:56 <AnMaster> ehird, oh? I tend to use classical login yeah
19:25:13 <ais523> that sort of thing is the sort of thing that would be perfect to go in a library
19:25:14 <ehird> the XP-style login is ugly but convenient; click type enter beats type type type tab type enter
19:25:21 <deschutron> output to the second channel is preserved as whatever it was when it was written
19:25:32 <AnMaster> ehird, you forgot ctrl-alt-del before login
19:25:36 <ehird> IMO Feather should be made in a way so that you can add any OS interaction you want, somehow
19:25:38 <deschutron> the user only receives info if it passes through the second channel
19:25:42 <ehird> AnMaster: err, why?
19:25:47 <ehird> oh, classical-stle
19:25:55 <ais523> deschutron: the real challenge with output is actually to not reprint it every time you get a change
19:25:58 <AnMaster> ehird, you have to on the xp computers at uni at least
19:26:03 <lament> let's do it classical-style baby
19:26:10 <ehird> classical login just reminds me of NT.
19:26:18 <ais523> but you could just store an output pointer in an object, together with the output, and reprint only if it changes
19:26:43 <ais523> ehird: there's a Linux equivalent of control-alt-del before login too, but it's more interesting
19:27:02 <deschutron> you could have it such that when the actions of the past are recalculated, the standard out calls that should have happened are not executed
19:27:06 <AnMaster> ehird, relative windows 3.1 I mean
19:27:11 <ais523> Alt-(SysRq,K) terminates all programs but the login screen
19:27:16 <ais523> so you know after pressing it that you're at a real login screen, not a fake one
19:27:28 <ehird> nt was pretty much identical to 3.1 at first, then much shittier than 95
19:27:30 <ais523> deschutron: or executed and ignored, probably easier in practice
19:27:44 <ehird> "easier in practice"
19:28:15 <AnMaster> <ais523> Alt-(SysRq,K) terminates all programs but the login screen <-- eh? On windows?
19:28:17 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:28:20 <ais523> AnMaster: no, on Linux
19:28:23 <deschutron> i mean no bytes get sent to standard out, but all variable changes still occur
19:28:27 <ais523> at the kernel level, so usermode programs can't fool it
19:28:32 <ais523> deschutron: yes, exactly
19:28:34 <AnMaster> ais523, and no it doesn't. It kills even getty but getty respawns
19:28:45 <ais523> everything but init, then
19:28:51 <ais523> as init's responsible for the respawning
19:28:53 <AnMaster> ais523, no, only current terminal
19:29:09 <oerjan> AnMaster: a bit black humor, i think
19:29:12 <AnMaster> ais523, and it doesn't work very well on gdm
19:29:32 <oerjan> <AnMaster> oerjan, sqrt(-garfield) was really funny today IMO
19:29:36 <ehird> there ought to be a tool for a program designed to be a tool for programming and maintaining, but isn't just an "editor" of text files, and isn't a big bloated IDE because it uses other tools to do the work
19:29:52 <ehird> "programmer" would work, but is sorta taken. :P
19:30:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, thought you were making some bad pun on "kill getty", "terminal", "black"
19:30:11 <AnMaster> but that would be even below your level
19:30:46 <AnMaster> deschutron, I'm not. Short summary?
19:30:50 <ais523> I know of it, but not much
19:31:16 <deschutron> a 2D brainfuck variant, inspired by PATH, and better than PATH
19:31:24 <ehird> ais523: you said "yay snusp" before :P
19:31:39 <ais523> yes, it doesn't get enough love
19:31:40 <ehird> anyway, whatever the term is, I think I'm going to make one of them with a UI sort of like darcs.
19:32:56 <ehird> muggles snuggle to snusp
19:33:27 <deschutron> i had the idea to add a fork instruction to it
19:33:50 <deschutron> where the parent and the child are automatically piped to each other
19:34:41 <deschutron> do you think that would be in keeping with the spirit of the language?
19:35:36 <ais523> with Bloated SNUSP, definitely
19:35:40 <ais523> unless it already exists in that
19:36:03 <ais523> in which case it would still be in keeping with the spirit, just redundant
19:36:15 <deschutron> Bloated SNUSP has an instruction to create new threads
19:37:01 <AnMaster> bloated brainfuck basically? :D
19:37:03 <deschutron> the new thread shares memory with the original, and the two then takes turns to execute instructions
19:37:26 <AnMaster> deschutron, yes but the idea of bloating brainfuck seems so backwards
19:38:06 <deschutron> yes it does, it destroys the minimalism
19:38:38 <deschutron> but snusp offers something other than pure minimalism. it offers a chance to visually see algorithms
19:39:37 <deschutron> the instructions are very orthogonal, and the program's memory structure is simple, so there is something nice about it
19:40:00 <ais523> AnMaster: Brainfork is pretty elegant as a language
19:40:29 <lament> why "take turns" as opposed to true concurrency?
19:40:44 <ehird> predictability, I presume
19:40:46 <ais523> turn-taking is easier to implement for the person writing the compiler/interp
19:40:49 <deschutron> that was the way bloated snusp's threading was designed
19:40:59 <ehird> lament: you can't really do a lock in brainfuck in the proper way
19:41:03 <AnMaster> why exactly is the driver called "Microsoft TCP/IP version 6". And the IPv4 one is just "Internet Protocol (TCP/IP)"
19:41:14 <ehird> AnMaster: who cares
19:41:18 <ehird> and the answer is because
19:41:19 <ais523> you /can/ do a lock in INTERCAL in the proper way
19:41:29 <AnMaster> maybe it indicates that it isn't compatible with the standard one
19:41:37 <lament> ehird: use an empty memory cell, increment it while your'e busy, then decrement
19:41:37 <ais523> semaphores, mutexes, all those primitives are easily implemented in terms of INTERCAL's more powerful primitives
19:41:40 <deschutron> i came up with a different way of multithreading for snusp
19:41:45 <ehird> AnMaster: no, it doesn't
19:41:48 <deschutron> it is based on the fork() function in unix
19:41:49 <AnMaster> <lament> lame <lament> and boring <-- agreed
19:41:53 <AnMaster> ehird, was trying to joke about it
19:42:45 -!- olsner has joined.
19:43:37 <deschutron> normally, a snusp program can only communicate via stdin and stdout.
19:43:43 <deschutron> what if when you created a new thread, it could only communicate with other threads through stdin and stdout?
19:45:55 <AnMaster> ok so lets see.. 1) sp 2 2) more upgrades 3) more upgrades, still no sight of sp3
19:46:06 <AnMaster> and there will be a reboot after batch 3
19:48:38 <AnMaster> ie 6 was quite a nostalgia trip :D
19:52:15 <AnMaster> ehird, this sound interesting: <option value="1727">Windows 7 Debugging Symbols Checked Build (x86) - (English)</option>
19:52:52 <FireFly> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=second+squared+per+second <-- W|A gives bogus output?
19:53:05 <FireFly> The box with the 2 in it doesn't look... good
19:53:21 <AnMaster> " To see full output you need to enable Javascript in your browser " <-- err "any output" might be more accurate
19:54:14 <ehird> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20090927151401988
19:54:18 <AnMaster> <FireFly> The box with the 2 in it doesn't look... good <-- how should it look instead of (s^2)/s
19:54:23 <ais523> ehird: you read GrokLaw?
19:54:34 <ehird> {2[[1]], Comparison as <>PhysicalLookup(2[[1]], PhysicalQuantitySingularName), CalculateScan`UnitScanner`Private`KnownMUnitToQuantityComparison(2, {CalculateUnits`UnitTable`MUnit(1, Unit(First[{}]))})[[CalculateScan`UnitScanner`Private`KnownMUnitToQuantityComparison(2, {CalculateUnits`UnitTable`MUnit(1, Unit(First[{}]))})]]}:
19:54:40 <ehird> ais523: no, but reddit does
19:54:48 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: uh <-- uh about what?
19:54:56 <ehird> nothing, AnMaster.
19:54:58 <AnMaster> FireFly, doesn't look like that here
19:55:12 <ehird> AnMaster has no scrollbar
19:55:16 <ehird> and his screen is tiny
19:55:28 <ehird> clearly not, or you would have scrolled down
19:55:31 <AnMaster> FireFly, enabled JS in firefox
19:55:41 <ais523> oh that reminds me of the bit about Silverlight being ported to Moblin
19:55:48 <FireFly> Which is below Input interpretation
19:55:49 <ais523> which is weird; I don't get why they aren't using Moonlight
19:56:01 <ais523> unless Microsoft want two competing Silverlight impls on Linux?
19:56:52 * ehird has a rather stupid idea
19:57:00 <ehird> Ubuntu/kFreeBSD or Ubuntu/kHURd
19:57:35 <ais523> well, there's Debian GNU/BSD
19:57:45 <ehird> I know Debian/k{FreeBSD,HURD} exist
19:57:58 <ehird> it wouldn't be hard, just take debian's kernel and base packages and add them to a fork of ubuntu's repo
19:58:05 <ais523> Nexenta is Ubuntu/kOpenSolaris, IIRC
19:58:09 <ehird> then remove the linux packages, tweak the installed base package
19:58:12 <ehird> rebuild EVERYTHING
19:58:55 <ais523> you wouldn't need to rebuild things that weren't linking against the kernel or libc, and had no OS-dependent code
19:59:04 <AnMaster> ehird, FireFly: what on: http://omploader.org/vMmdlMA
19:59:21 <AnMaster> please tell me where the bad stuff is there
19:59:31 <ehird> AnMaster: note the loading bar.
20:00:16 * ehird wonders what petname is
20:00:33 <AnMaster> ehird, see the "unauthicated" at the top?
20:00:36 <ais523> (only mentioning that because it's pretty similar to a NetHack option name)
20:00:39 <AnMaster> basically it remembers ssl certs
20:00:39 <ehird> in that screenshot, pay attention
20:00:47 <ehird> AnMaster: uh, what
20:00:49 <ais523> oh, I don't follow links
20:00:55 <ais523> so I find it hard to think of them as context
20:01:01 <ehird> ais523: then stop asking people when they talk about them
20:01:02 <AnMaster> ehird, so when I go to my internet bank it verifies the fingerprint is the same. And displays that.
20:01:09 <ehird> your personal hangup about clicking links is unique
20:01:16 <ais523> it gets me out of trouble
20:01:16 <ehird> AnMaster: firefox does that.
20:01:22 <ais523> this way has fewer rickrolls
20:01:24 <AnMaster> ehird, um, only that cert is valid
20:01:24 <ehird> ais523: so does /ignore *
20:01:30 <AnMaster> ehird, not that it is the same as you stored
20:01:33 <ehird> except it impairs conversation just the same
20:01:36 <AnMaster> so it doesn't change and someone faked it
20:01:38 <ehird> AnMaster: not in recent versions
20:01:53 <AnMaster> ehird, mhm? I had that extension since 3.0 at least
20:02:03 <ehird> at least in 3.5, I think
20:02:16 <AnMaster> ehird, that is firefox 3.0.14 you are looking at
20:02:26 <ehird> there's a 3.5 package in jaunty.
20:02:48 <AnMaster> ehird, yes but it is universe or something, not officially supported it says
20:03:00 <ehird> yes, so're most things
20:03:06 <ehird> have you noticed that there is no official ubuntu support?
20:03:10 <ehird> unless you count expensive telephone calls
20:03:18 <ehird> irc, forums ... none of that is official
20:04:29 -!- deschutron has left (?).
20:06:06 <ais523> ehird: there is, but you have to pay for it
20:06:19 <ehird> "unless you count"
20:06:21 <ais523> I don't see why there'd be official unpaid support if there's official paid suport
20:06:25 <ehird> are you ignoring random lines as well as links?
20:06:25 <ais523> ehird: well, I do count that
20:06:31 <ehird> yes, and nobody uses it
20:06:33 <ais523> as that's exactly what the official support is
20:06:36 <ehird> http://imgur.com/CSopO.jpg, outside reddit offices
20:06:39 <ais523> and I'm relatively sure some people do
20:06:54 <ais523> when I bought this computer, Dell offered me bundled paid support for Ubuntu if I wanted it
20:07:02 <ais523> I declined, but there are some people who might accept
20:07:21 <ais523> and companies would want to accept even more; after all, RHEL is (still) a success in the business world
20:07:28 <ais523> and it's the same principle there
20:08:49 <ais523> happy australian mailman reminders day, btw
20:09:11 -!- Asztal has quit (Success).
20:09:25 <AnMaster> why is "microsoft update" so much slower for the "checking for updates" step than "windows update"
20:10:24 -!- Asztal has joined.
20:10:37 <AnMaster> ehird, sure there is sp 3 for x64 too?
20:10:40 <ais523> because Microsoft is bigger than Windows?
20:10:48 <AnMaster> because no such thing is listed
20:10:56 <AnMaster> ais523, well no other MS software installed atm
20:11:15 <ais523> really? You have Windows bundled with nothing at all?
20:11:27 <ais523> I'm pretty sure standard Windows installs have more than bare bones
20:11:46 <AnMaster> ais523, hm? well there is IE, but that was updated by windows update too
20:12:19 <AnMaster> ais523, this is newly installed windows xp pro x64
20:12:37 <ais523> AnMaster: does it come with things like Notepad/
20:12:46 <AnMaster> ais523, that is part of windows...
20:12:48 <ais523> (not that Notepad would likely need much updating...)
20:12:53 <AnMaster> ais523, and is updated by windows update
20:13:22 <AnMaster> ais523, microsoft update updates office and other such "non-bundled" apps. But none of those are installed
20:13:37 <ais523> maybe it's installing them so it has something to update
20:14:37 <AnMaster> ais523, plus I fail to see why it would take any longer than apt-get update followed by the upgrade part that checks for upgrades
20:14:52 <AnMaster> since there are fewer packages, just updates
20:15:09 <AnMaster> a text file with last hotpatch level in would be enough
20:26:29 -!- Slereah has joined.
20:33:56 <ehird> <AnMaster> ehird, sure there is sp 3 for x64 too?
20:34:28 <AnMaster> ehird, odd then that it isn't listed hm
20:34:33 <ehird> <AnMaster> ais523, plus I fail to see why it would take any longer than apt-get update followed by the upgrade part that checks for upgrades
20:34:39 <ehird> hardware checking, software checking
20:34:41 <ehird> for compatibility etc
20:34:50 <ehird> and whether the upgrade is required for this software set
20:35:10 <AnMaster> ehird, shouldn't take that long, and you could cache results and such
20:37:28 -!- impomatic has quit ("mov.i #1,1").
20:37:52 <ais523> stop imp-bombing #esoteri
20:38:58 <ais523> assuming an IP ends up in my code before impomatic's
20:39:19 <oerjan> but imps are hillarious
20:40:56 <ais523> not when they overwrite the logs
20:41:53 <ehird> grr, my mouse keeps losing connection
20:41:56 <ehird> better replace the batteries
20:42:24 <ais523> I switched to a wired mouse for that reason
20:42:54 <ehird> they've lasted for at least a month
20:44:05 <FireFly> Wireless mouse with rechargable batteries <3
20:44:23 <ehird> you still have to charge them.
20:44:24 <FireFly> And charger where you put the mouse when you leave the computer
20:44:36 <ehird> that only works if you leave the computer :D
20:44:44 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:44:49 <FireFly> As opposed to other people here :)
20:45:34 -!- Azstal has joined.
20:46:26 <AnMaster> hilarious, I opened shut down dialog to restart XP for upgrade. and after I click ok the "there are uninstalled upgrades, reboot now/later" dialog pops up
20:46:41 <AnMaster> to be promptly killed by the shutting down process a few seconds later
20:46:53 <ehird> Yeah, that's so hilarious. Could never happen in Linux or anything.
20:47:06 <AnMaster> of course it *could*, but I never seen it happen
20:48:19 <ehird> Addition to the management console in Windows. If the MMC fails to complete a normal shut down, the SMS.MSC file may be removed from the system. As a result, the shortcut is not found when the Systems Management Server Administrator console is started. See the added into link below for a solution. Note: This file type can become infected and should be carefully scanned if someone sends you a file with this extension.
20:48:32 <ehird> "management console", I guess.
20:49:25 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I know that they are "management console" files. I was wondering more like "are they *.dlls basically that are loaded into msc.exe or what"?
20:49:43 <AnMaster> the defrag GUI is an example of a *.msc
20:50:01 <ehird> Unless you pronounce * "star".
20:50:19 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, run file(1) on one and see.
20:50:36 <ais523> I'm not sure how to pronounce it at all
20:50:47 <ais523> if a word actually has no pronunciation, do you use "a" or "an" before it?
20:51:03 <ais523> my mind reads the *. as something nonverbal when I'm reading to myself
20:51:08 <ehird> Or, if you're annoying and pedantic:
20:51:10 <ehird> "An asterisk dot em ess cee".
20:51:10 <ais523> which is weird, as I normally read text as words
20:51:21 <ehird> well, the others are stupid
20:51:27 <ehird> and pronounce dot but not the asterisk
20:52:03 <ehird> ais523: maybe "a[n] *.msc" is pronounced "an em ess cee file".
20:54:22 <ais523> incidentally, I did verbalise it as "star dot" when I forced it into words
20:54:30 <ais523> probably based on the common verbalisation of the DOS idiom *.*
20:55:31 <ehird> I refer to this place as "esoteric" or, if in a clarifactory (so a word) mood, "the esoteric programming languages channel". Admittedly I don't actually have many chances to mention it IRL.
20:55:48 <ehird> Well, I mostly say "the esoteric... thi*recognition*ng, right"
20:56:04 <ehird> If you can use mostly for an occurrence as common as dodos.
20:56:53 <AnMaster> <ehird> Unless you pronounce * "star". <-- no, "thingy"
20:57:02 <oerjan> ehird: so do you often apply clarifaction?
20:57:22 <ehird> I guess clarificatory is a better word.
20:58:15 <fizzie> When speaking of IRC channels in real life, I use "risu-<channel>", which I guess is a bit like "hash-<channel>". (Though "risu" is a shortening of the word "risuaita" commonly used in Finnish for that character; literally translated it'd be "stick fence" or "twig fence" or something.)
20:58:19 <ehird> AnMaster: m is pronounced em, so yes, an m.
20:58:27 <ehird> m-s-c = em ess see.
20:58:38 <ehird> Msc isn't really pronouncable. Musk doesn't count.
20:58:50 <AnMaster> ehird, you can pronounce without vowels
20:58:53 <ehird> fizzie: twig fence esoteric
20:59:07 <ehird> AnMaster: Thus "isn't really pronounceable".
20:59:11 <ehird> I add in words for a reason, guys.
20:59:17 <fizzie> ehird: Maybe I'll start using "twig-<channel>" in English; that's bound to be confusing enough.
20:59:42 <ehird> irc ball freenode ball net ... what's /?
20:59:45 <fizzie> "The other day on twig-esoteric, ehird was waggling his eyebrows." (Sorry, I couldn't figure out any more realistic event.)
21:00:15 <ehird> irc ? double-twig irc ball freenode ball net spear twig esoteric
21:00:27 <ehird> Technically it should be irc://irc.freenode.net/esoteric without the twig, but eh.
21:00:36 <oerjan> the next day, he was haggling his eyeballs
21:00:36 <ehird> For your convenience:
21:00:40 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:00:40 <fizzie> I guess you mean double-spear there.
21:01:47 <ehird> ais523: what are :, / and # in Nethack?
21:01:58 <ehird> first one's newt, isn't it
21:02:15 <ehird> Deewiant: does . have a name?
21:02:27 <ehird> or is it just ... ground
21:02:49 <ais523> ehird: commands, or on the ground?
21:02:56 <Deewiant> I don't think any of the characters have official Nethack names :-P
21:02:59 <ais523> as commands: look here, describe glyph, extended command
21:03:14 <ais523> on the ground: reptile (most commonly a newt), wand, and corridor
21:03:23 <ais523> well, other things than corridors are possible too for #
21:03:25 -!- Azstal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:03:26 <ais523> but corridors are the most common
21:03:27 <ehird> so does . have a name on the ground? :P
21:03:37 <ais523> ehird: use ; to look at it
21:03:43 <ais523> it's something complicated
21:03:44 <ehird> I don't have nethack open
21:03:47 <oerjan> wait, newts are not reptiles
21:03:56 <ais523> like "floor or ice or a drawbridge or ..."
21:04:05 <ehird> irc reptile double-wand irc floor freenode floor net wand corridor esoteric
21:04:06 <ais523> oerjan: sorry, amphibian
21:04:08 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:04:13 <ehird> irc amphibian double-wand irc floor freenode floor net wand corridor esoteric
21:04:17 <ehird> irc newt double-wand irc floor freenode floor net wand corridor esoteric
21:04:21 <ais523> well, either in NetHack, it's not all that picky
21:04:27 <ehird> ehird@ehird-desktop:~$ nethack
21:04:27 <ehird> The program 'nethack' can be found in the following packages:
21:04:28 <ehird> Try: sudo apt-get install <selected package>
21:04:32 <ehird> nethack: command not found
21:04:35 <ehird> I'm kind of offended it considers the others acceptable alternatives
21:04:39 <fizzie> And if you want the full list for S_LIZARD: newt, gecko, iguana, baby crocodile, lizard, chameleon, crocodile, salamander.
21:04:42 <ais523> ehird: they're all the console version
21:04:45 <AnMaster> 10 reboots and still not done yet. God-fucking-damn windows update
21:04:48 <ais523> the other two have graphical versions in the same binary
21:04:55 <ais523> but are console by default unless opened via the GUI
21:05:00 <ais523> also, nethack-qt's GUI is broken
21:05:09 <ehird> i don't care, unless the two others have become way better recently it's sacrelidge
21:05:10 <ais523> so you only have one viable alternative for graphical play
21:05:21 <ehird> also, how is it broken?
21:05:31 <ehird> heh, it even uses qt3
21:05:31 <ais523> let me get a screenshot for you, it'll be obvious from that
21:05:39 <oerjan> fizzie: what, no raptors?
21:05:47 <AnMaster> ais523, what does the GTK one look like?
21:06:04 <ehird> Wow, Qt 3's default theme is ugly
21:06:10 <ehird> AnMaster: who said it has one?
21:06:21 <ais523> AnMaster: it used to use athena widgets
21:06:28 <ais523> it became unmaintained for that reason and was dropped
21:06:28 <ehird> ugh, the qt tiles are really ugly
21:06:32 <ais523> X11 is also athena, but saner
21:06:42 <AnMaster> ais523, I quite like the qt one here
21:06:56 <AnMaster> well the console one is obviously better
21:07:18 <ais523> there: http://imgur.com/6jeoK.png
21:07:50 <ehird> doesn't happen for me
21:07:51 <ais523> AnMaster: presumably your version actually works, then
21:08:04 <ais523> ehird: ah, you installed nethack-qt?
21:08:07 <AnMaster> ais523, the default font is way to large you have to change it to saner
21:08:07 <ehird> ais523: aargh, why is your applications menu indented?
21:08:09 <ais523> maybe they actually fixed that problem
21:08:10 <ehird> that totally breaks fitt's law
21:08:18 <ais523> ehird: there's a button in the top-left
21:08:19 <ehird> your show desktop and trash too
21:08:22 <ais523> that I use more than the menu itself
21:08:34 <ais523> I took all the decoration off the button to save space
21:08:38 <ais523> so it just looks like a blank space
21:08:49 <ais523> so I can fit programs into a larger space
21:08:50 <ehird> right, I you do indeed have truly anemic screen space.
21:08:56 <ais523> (most commonly I use that for battle for wesnoth)
21:08:57 <AnMaster> ehird, you can't get gnome to show the hide panel on only *ONE* side
21:09:08 <ehird> who cares, both panels are valuable
21:09:37 <AnMaster> ehird, hm I have hide ones too
21:10:18 <ehird> oops, forgot to start dropbox
21:10:30 <fizzie> Speaking of nethack, are they still making Falcon's Eye, or did they replace that with some other project or something?
21:10:38 <ehird> AnMaster: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/nethack-x11.png
21:10:51 <ais523> fizzie: Vulture's is a fork that's more recently developed
21:10:56 <Deewiant> fizzie: Didn't it die like 10 years ago?
21:11:16 <fizzie> Deewiant: No, there's a newspost from 2002.
21:11:39 <fizzie> What, is it 2009 already?
21:12:00 <fizzie> I have a "starts with 2, must be recent" reflex.
21:12:06 <ehird> AnMaster: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/nethack-x11.png
21:12:37 <ehird> and I forgot to blur my highly-sensitive taskbar of a submission from reddit, two people, IRC and some terminals!
21:12:45 <AnMaster> ehird, are you 100% sure that there is SP3 for XP x64?
21:12:58 <ehird> Windows XP x64 SP3
21:12:58 <ehird> 5 posts - 4 authors - Last post: 9 Mar
21:12:58 <ehird> Actually you can install SP3 on x64 versions and if you use either WindowsUpdate or MicrosoftUpdate you will be prompted to install it ...
21:13:01 <ehird> 64-Bit Windows XP Service Pack 3? - Don't think so... at least for ...
21:13:02 <ehird> 14 Dec 2007 ... SP3 for Windows XP x64 = SP3 for Windows Server 2003, because Windows XP x64 is based on Windows Server 2003 and not on Windows XP 32bits. ...
21:13:14 <ehird> PEOPLE ARE CONFLICTED
21:13:24 <ais523> ehird: that nethack-x11 looks just like mine
21:13:27 <AnMaster> ehird, it seems you just listed three different opinions
21:13:34 <ais523> pretty ugly and not particularly usable, in other words
21:13:44 <ehird> AnMaster: Two google results.
21:13:46 <AnMaster> ehird, and it isn't listed on windows update or microsoft update
21:13:49 <ais523> also it has an annoying problem with the keyboard controls
21:13:55 <ehird> wow, the nethack-x11 tiles are really tiny
21:14:04 <ais523> NetHack has swappable tilesets
21:14:14 <ais523> there are larger better-looking ones, but it's a pain to figure out how to use them
21:15:04 <ehird> I'll stick to my current strategy, which is not playing NetHack :P
21:16:36 <AnMaster> ehird, what is wrong with console?
21:17:01 <fizzie> I would have assumed AnMaster would use nethack-el+nethack-lisp.
21:17:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, I use just plain nethack in facrt
21:17:39 <ehird> TAEB should be rewritten to use nethack-el, because of WHY GOD WHY.
21:18:01 <ais523> wouldn't work on existing public servers
21:18:03 <ais523> which is the whole point
21:18:35 <ehird> Due to, you know, Emacs Lisp.
21:18:39 <ehird> "# All the beauty that comes with Emacs" --nethack-el features lis
21:18:45 <ehird> I hope they don't mean cosmetically...
21:19:01 <fizzie> I've been using the console variant with IBMgraphics, though I don't really play.
21:19:38 <ehird> Occasionally I pick up nethack and think, yeah, I can totally play this for years and years and finally ascend, I'm up for that kind of long-term project
21:19:45 <ehird> and them I'm like fuck it, this is just dragging on
21:19:57 <fizzie> can't type "'", apparently.
21:20:53 <ehird> Does anyone use nethack-lisp directly, I wonder.
21:20:58 <ehird> Like, in a console, with the Lisp.
21:21:11 <fizzie> I've been to the bottom of the Gehennom a couple of times, sort-of casually walking around.
21:21:40 <ehird> "Hey dudes, what's hanging?"
21:21:45 <ehird> "I'm just here to mull about."
21:22:03 <ehird> I find it interesting that the owner of gehennom.org "doesn't really play". :P
21:22:35 <fizzie> I just had trouble inventing a sensible domain name to register.
21:22:59 <fizzie> After all, I've been the owner of befunge.org too, and I don't really write befunge either. I mean, in a serious fashion.
21:23:05 <ehird> heikkikallasjoki.org sounds memorable and obvious to me!
21:23:20 <ehird> You poor Swedes and your inability to name sanely anything after yourself. :P
21:23:24 <fizzie> I used to have a nethack-themed 404 page in gehennom.org, maybe that counts.
21:23:28 <ehird> why did I type swedes.
21:23:47 <ehird> oh right, sweden is finland.
21:26:49 <fizzie> I seem to have a ~/.nethackrc.console; I didn't know (or remember, anyway) that that sort of suffix notation existed.
21:27:29 <ehird> i wish nethack would remember my settings.
21:27:59 <ehird> <property key="LevelMusicFile" value="sound/Emilie.xm"/>
21:30:44 <ehird> ais523: Experimental#4, bash yourself and the white ball into the portal
21:31:15 <ais523> they should change the scroll mode, as it messes up actual testing
21:31:43 <ehird> hmmm... it has oxyds, right?
21:31:45 <ehird> so it might be solvable
21:33:34 <ais523> you can't get at the ones behind the glass
21:33:44 <ais523> actually, if it is glass (I can't remember)
21:33:48 <ais523> you might be able to use a laser and mirrors
21:33:50 <ehird> isn't there another stone to do that :)
21:34:23 <ais523> what, make a stone into glass?
21:34:31 <ehird> well, just to hit them
21:34:45 <AnMaster> <fizzie> I just had trouble inventing a sensible domain name to register. <-- you own "gehennom.org"?
21:34:48 <ehird> i mean, hit the oxyds
21:34:53 <ais523> it's powered by extralives but there's an extralife dispenser on there somewhere
21:35:05 <ais523> OTOH, hitting at that range would be a pain
21:35:16 <fizzie> I used is as my "default domain" before registering this zem.fi thing.
21:35:32 <ehird> ais523: would be pretty impressive to win the level, though
21:35:55 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:35:57 <AnMaster> <ais523> st_spitter <-- huh? Not in last release?
21:36:06 * ehird wonders wtf Pentomino I is
21:36:14 <ais523> AnMaster: it is I think, I may have the name wrong though
21:36:15 * AnMaster hopes windows 7 download works now
21:36:22 <ais523> although with a different animation
21:36:25 <AnMaster> ais523, well I might have 1.0 or so
21:36:29 <AnMaster> ais523, what does the object to
21:36:47 <ais523> you hit it and it shoots a cannonball
21:36:51 <ais523> which destroys floor and opens oxtds
21:36:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, how was http://gehennom.org/doc/knock/ generated?
21:36:58 <ais523> doing so costs extralives
21:37:12 <AnMaster> they layout seems VERY VERY familiar
21:37:23 <ehird> the linux documentation project uses it and stuff.
21:37:31 <ehird> and i think debian install guides
21:37:32 <AnMaster> CONTENT="Modular DocBook HTML Stylesheet Version 1.79"><LINK
21:37:32 <ehird> and all that stuff
21:37:41 <ehird> AnMaster: for whitespace
21:37:49 <ehird> there's whitespace between those in HTML
21:37:51 <ehird> this can mess up CSS etc
21:37:55 <ehird> also preformatted stuff
21:37:59 <ehird> basically, generating html is a bitch
21:38:01 <ehird> and this makes it simpler
21:38:32 <ehird> that's uglier, but easier.
21:38:36 <ehird> then again they don't indent
21:38:41 <ehird> so it is pretty silly.
21:39:07 <fizzie> Yes, it's done with DocBook.
21:39:11 <AnMaster> "<ehird> so *it *is pretty silly."
21:39:18 <ehird> AnMaster: * starts a correction.
21:39:30 <ehird> use levenshtein distance or something to find out what to correct ;P
21:39:37 <ehird> AnMaster: what, just typing the correction?
21:39:46 <ehird> only you use that in here
21:39:49 <ehird> maybe swedes do it a lot
21:39:52 <ehird> but definitely not on english irc
21:39:53 <AnMaster> ehird, well I mean overall on irc
21:39:58 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Page closed").
21:40:12 <ehird> yes, but not english natives presumably
21:40:12 <ehird> I've never seen anyone use it but you
21:41:53 <ehird> ais523: Espirit#13 makes me want to make a level where if you move right once, it solves itself
21:41:53 <ehird> but is really hard otherwise
21:42:37 <ais523> better still, the self-solution should be slower than the hard one
21:42:41 <ehird> just a real pain to maneuver
21:43:03 <ehird> ais523: agreed, although that destroys the beauty of "par 2:47, record 0:07"
21:43:23 <ais523> ah, I see what you mean
21:43:44 <ehird> I mean, it'd be full of it trying to move against you, so naturally if you went right and started to move you'd resist
21:43:47 <ais523> you could do that simply with a massive dexterity-trick at the start, but disguising that would be more tricky
21:43:50 <ehird> so it would be quite hard to find
21:44:38 <AnMaster> <ehird> yes, but not english natives presumably <-- one of them is admittedly an Australian...
21:44:56 <ehird> that was actually a good one :/
21:45:20 <ehird> <ais523> you could do that simply with a massive dexterity-trick at the start, but disguising that would be more tricky
21:45:22 <ehird> what do you mean by this, btw?
21:45:29 <ais523> something that's very hard to do
21:45:30 <AnMaster> ehird, it is always fun to poke fun at au English
21:45:41 <ais523> by moving the mouse a certain way
21:45:42 <ehird> how does it disguise what
21:45:52 <ais523> the idea would be you could skip a portion of the level by doing something crazy at the start
21:45:57 <ais523> but that that would be hard to disguise
21:46:00 <ais523> as anything other than what it was
21:46:47 * ehird wonders if anyone has noticed a cheat in 0.92-1#46
21:47:31 <ais523> possibly not, that's a weird level to want to look for shortcuts in
21:47:44 <ehird> get all oxyds but one, kill yourself, hit the last one
21:47:58 <ais523> oh, that's not considered cheating, it's a standard technique
21:48:07 <ehird> but it means you can get 0:01
21:48:34 <ehird> or does the bottom left timer not reflect total time?
21:49:01 <ais523> killing yourself has a delay of a bit over a second
21:49:07 <ais523> in both realtime and timer time (which is meant to be the same)
21:49:17 <ais523> there is an exploit on timer time, it involves holding down ESC
21:49:41 <ais523> but it isn't useful in most levels
21:49:41 <ehird> the world record is 0:06
21:49:46 <ehird> so you can get like 0:03
21:49:46 <ais523> only those that look at the realtime clock for some reason
21:50:00 <ais523> anyway, why would you think you can get all oxyd-pairs but one?
21:50:12 <ais523> what you're suggesting sounds like a legit way to get a world record
21:50:17 <ais523> so you could set a new record, if it worked
21:50:31 <ehird> hit every oxyd but one, kill yourself, dash to it
21:50:40 <ehird> you can take as long as you want before killing yourself
21:50:49 <ais523> killing yourself doesn't reset the timer
21:51:09 <ehird> oh, possibly i lost all my lives the first time
21:51:13 <ais523> resetting the level resets the timer
21:51:16 <ais523> which happens when you run out of lives
21:51:48 <ais523> dying without a level reset penalises you about 1 second by freezing your movements (leaving the level running), then you respawn with the timer at its current value
21:52:02 <ais523> and some levels are set to reset whenever you die, in which case extralives are only useful for blocking lasers
21:52:17 <ais523> finding out whether that setting's on or off is one of the first things I do on a level
21:52:27 <ais523> that I don't know about
21:53:10 <ehird> does 0.92-1#106 have to be so loud?
21:54:06 <AnMaster> ais523, btw in http://imgur.com/6jeoK.png (just noticed that tab open) what the hell is up with the tiles
21:54:33 <ais523> AnMaster: beats me, what the hell is up with anything else there?
21:54:48 <ais523> also, the showpet heart shows as a heart, so it is trying to do tiles a bit
21:54:55 <ais523> even though it's mostly broken ASCII by the look of it
21:55:39 <AnMaster> ais523, mine here looks like fairly sane small tiles
21:55:52 <ehird> par of 0.92-1#126 is 15s, ridiculous
21:56:02 <ehird> AnMaster: noticed the top of the window?
21:56:06 <ehird> the whole point is that it's broken for ais523
21:56:36 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: noticed the top of the window? <-- you mean those overlapping "titles"?
21:56:46 <AnMaster> that happens here too at default font size
22:01:00 <AnMaster> huh why "IANALAIDPOOTV". Supposedly it means "I Am Not A Lawyer And I Don't Play One On TV" but I don't get the joke about the TV bit...
22:01:36 <ehird> I, Ana, Laid Poo TV.
22:02:21 <fizzie> I, anal aid, poot the fifth.
22:03:02 <AnMaster> so should I interpret this as no one having a clue what the joke is?
22:03:17 <ehird> Interpret it how you want, but I'll say one thing and that's whoosh.
22:03:49 <ais523> there's not much point in whooshing people who know a joke exists but don't get it, and say so
22:03:53 <AnMaster> ehird, what has laywers in some film got to do with anything
22:04:01 <ais523> that's like saying "You say you know a joke exists but you don't get it? well, you don't get it!"
22:04:02 <ehird> You amuse me AnMaster.
22:04:09 <ehird> ais523: he could have used google
22:04:11 <ehird> I know you're alien to this concept.
22:04:12 <ais523> you amuse me ehird, in that particular line
22:04:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I *googled* for this "IANALAIDPOOTV" which is why I found out what it meant
22:04:34 <AnMaster> but I was unable go get further
22:04:59 <lament> it's a reference to a joke.
22:05:02 <AnMaster> ais523, do you get the joke? If so could you please help.
22:05:27 <lament> AnMaster: google for "but I play one on TV"
22:05:39 <ehird> That's a shocking idea
22:05:39 * AnMaster waits for ehird to say "woosh" at ais523
22:05:45 <ehird> How can you ever have thought of that, lament.
22:05:47 <ais523> AnMaster: you misspelt "whoosh"
22:06:03 <AnMaster> lament, ok. didn't know that was the original joke
22:06:24 <AnMaster> because I did try "And I Don't Play One On TV" too
22:07:10 <lament> in your defense, neither the original joke nor the "AIDPOOTV" come-back are funny
22:07:20 <ehird> funniness is totally unrelated to recognition
22:07:24 <lament> so it's hard to understand what they're about
22:08:43 -!- gergely has joined.
22:08:55 <AnMaster> "<ehird> funniness is totally unrelated to recognition" <-- and how would one recognise those if one had no clue what to recognise?
22:08:55 -!- gergely has left (?).
22:09:14 <ehird> you clearly had some clue because you asked
22:10:06 <AnMaster> ehird, deduction by logic: It didn't make sense if it wasn't a reference or joke.
22:10:19 <AnMaster> but I had no clue *what* reference or *what* joke
22:11:38 <AnMaster> it's makes about as much sense as me attacking you for not being able to recognise a 5 second piece of music as (for example): Hadyn, early period
22:12:07 <ehird> AnMaster is offended!
22:30:49 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
22:30:51 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:08:27 <AnMaster> that is a clean install "rebooting from install"
23:13:10 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:17:47 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:25:42 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:29:20 <AnMaster> hm it hit 7.1 GB before desktop showed up
23:36:53 <Sgeo> "The article failed to mention his enthusiastic support of nuclear power and how he is going to be meeting with world leaders to get more nuclear plants purchased and built. Essentially, he'll be hawking radiation."
23:37:47 <Sgeo> Stephen Hawking. (Also, that quote was a joke)
23:37:50 <Sgeo> http://www.fark.com/cgi/comments.pl?IDLink=4668974
23:38:55 <oerjan> well to be hawking radiation you first have to jump into a black hole
23:39:48 <lament> i thought, to be hawking radiation you first have to spontaneously appear from vacuum just outside of a black hole?
23:42:46 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:45:03 -!- jix has joined.
23:45:22 <ehird> <AnMaster> 7.0G windows7.vdi
23:45:22 <ehird> <AnMaster> that is a clean install "rebooting from install"
23:45:22 <ehird> <AnMaster> funny? yes
23:54:42 <oerjan> lament: i am using be in the "become" sense here
23:56:12 <oerjan> and also, jumping into vs. turning into radiation just outside are just different ways of looking at the same phenomenon, iiuc
23:57:08 <oerjan> since for example time dilation at the horizon w.r.t. the outside universe is infinite
23:59:12 <ehird> so actually jumping into a black hole you'd just die due to being ripped apart, correct?
23:59:17 <ehird> i don't really know anything about black holes
23:59:48 <ehird> so, say you had a pod you could put around you, God gave it to you
23:59:55 <ehird> it stops you being ripped apart, the laws of physics be damned
23:59:58 <ehird> I jump into a black hole