00:42:50 <ehird> it'd be sweet if xjump had online multiplayer.
00:42:55 <ehird> and you could knock each other waway
00:58:15 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:58:18 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
01:05:39 <ehird> http://jwz.livejournal.com/1096401.html?thread=20365265#t20365265 jwz: OOH, DRAMA
01:17:58 <pikhq> I would like to take this opportunity to note that US politics is freaking insane. Like, really, "belongs in an asylum".
01:23:24 <ehird> gee I wasn't aware
01:26:20 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
01:26:29 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
01:33:48 <ehird> "(Please do not thank me - I find it scary)" --the internets
01:48:14 <ehird> 15:19:55 <Rugxulo> cool link: http://shinh.skr.jp/obf/
01:48:22 <ehird> huh, shinh has a real website
01:51:54 <ehird> 06:28:44 <ais523> also, when ehird gets online, I'll have to tell him that control-shift-alt-5 does regex replace in Emacs
01:52:09 <ehird> the stereotype, it hurts
01:54:09 <ehird> 07:04:32 <ais523> AnMaster: holding down /three/ modifier keys, then pressing a digit?
01:54:10 <ehird> 07:04:38 <AnMaster> ais523, yes and?
01:55:50 <ehird> 08:22:47 <AnMaster> which is why a source based distro is so much better, relinking is trivial, while on ubuntu it would be a more complex process.
01:56:02 <ehird> source based distros are good because if the distro is horribly broken you can perform major surgery on it easier?
01:56:05 <ehird> fuck, you convinced me
01:56:10 <ehird> sign me up for the 5 hour compile times
01:57:19 <ehird> 10:12:00 <AnMaster> ais523, on support.microsoft.com you should ask about notepad vs. wordpad I guess
01:57:19 <ehird> 10:12:30 <ais523> AnMaster: just no, they're both awful
01:57:21 <ehird> what's wrong with notepad
01:57:54 <ehird> 10:14:09 <fizzie> (Okay, so it's not completely dead: the USB hub still works. It's just that a two-port USB hub the shape of a 24" TFT is still not especially useful.)
01:57:54 <ehird> cool novelty item.
01:58:20 <ehird> 10:17:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, you get the basic idea anyway, refine it as required
01:58:30 <ehird> "Also failing at the same time was (a) hookers, (b) blackjack. These items are required."
01:59:15 <ehird> and so i finish logreading.
02:05:41 -!- augur has joined.
02:07:47 <ehird> no i won't have sex with you
02:08:08 <ehird> I didn't author that
02:08:25 <augur> so you are having sex with me
02:08:37 <ehird> since you're so persuasive
02:11:18 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
02:11:31 <augur> so my latest torture
02:11:43 <augur> in this horrible adventure that is the Italian Dialectology DB
02:11:59 <augur> the server will not report any fucking errors regardless of error reporting levels.
02:12:05 <augur> and regardless of how egregious the errors truly are
02:13:59 <ehird> Italian Dialectology DB Fuck Shit Damn Whore.
03:09:48 -!- ehird has quit ("Ex-Chat").
03:16:31 -!- ehird has joined.
03:39:56 -!- ehird has quit ("Ex-Chat").
03:53:20 -!- ehird has joined.
04:08:51 <Gregor> <ehird> I didn't author that
04:10:27 <Gregor> I read over the typo flawlessly :P
04:10:34 <ehird> flawless... failure?
04:10:54 <Gregor> So is that how we say "hello" now?
04:11:01 <Gregor> No I won't have sex with you.
04:11:22 <ehird> sorry to see you leaving so soon, Gregor. was it something I said?
04:11:24 <Gregor> You ruined the flow of my other "hi" :P
04:11:33 <ehird> FLAWLESS TRAINWRECK
04:11:46 <Gregor> Under some set of conditions it's possible I'd have sex with you, but you don't get to know what those are.
04:12:10 <ehird> who doesn't want a fuddlepup?!
04:12:56 <pikhq> Someone made of ANTIMATTER, that's who.
04:13:19 <Slereah> He would want an antifuddlepup
04:13:20 <coppro> Antimatter is an AWESOME power
04:13:30 <coppro> like, I'd say it's better than Void
04:13:34 <ehird> antimatter doesn't matter bitch ass fuck attundal what
04:13:35 <Gregor> No, I won't have sex with you.
04:13:45 <Gregor> No I won't have sex with you.Bye coppro.
04:13:47 <pikhq> Gregor: Interesega.
04:13:48 <Gregor> Whoops, messed that one up :P
04:13:49 <Slereah> I'd like one day to see a super hero with the power to control the strong interaction
04:13:52 <ehird> I don't think it's legal to do that to walruses.
04:13:54 <Slereah> Now there's a powerful power
04:13:54 <ehird> Jesus christ, eww.
04:13:57 <ehird> What the fuck is wrong with you?
04:13:59 <coppro> Gregor: you'd have sex with ehird but not me? :(
04:14:07 <ehird> coppro: you're way too old.
04:14:07 <coppro> (not that I'm interested, but still)
04:14:15 <Gregor> coppro: No, @ehird was "No I won't have sex with you" :P
04:14:22 <ehird> <Gregor> :pedobear:
04:14:42 -!- oerjan has joined.
04:14:46 <pikhq> "I will make your atoms cease to be. *bam*"
04:14:51 <ehird> i'll uh, change the laws of your bitching physics?
04:14:59 <Gregor> No I won't have sex with you.
04:15:07 <Slereah> Come on, he could DISASSEMBLE the fuck out of you
04:15:28 <Slereah> Send parton jets in your fucking face
04:17:28 <ehird> can he rip apart my fucking quarks
04:17:42 <Gregor> The quarks used for fucking.
04:17:52 <ehird> no, those are my fucking fucking quarks
04:18:26 <Gregor> And your fucking fucking fucking quarks are for fucking the abstract idea of fucking?
04:18:48 <ehird> my fucking fucking fucking fucking quarks are just shut the fuck up
04:19:12 <oerjan> #esoteric, the sex channel
04:19:31 <Gregor> So speaking of deer, ...
04:20:20 -!- ehird has set topic: find the fun in sex and have a happy hour of brainfucking in the skies where the http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D dwell.
04:20:23 -!- ehird has set topic: #esoteric, find the fun in sex and have a happy hour of brainfucking in the skies where the http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D dwell.
04:22:17 * oerjan distinctly thought #esoteric was usually prepended to the topic somehow anyway. he guesses it depends on client though.
04:23:11 <ehird> it was a chanserv thingy
04:23:12 <ehird> i just meant "what" at my topi
04:23:35 -!- Gregor has set topic: #esoteric, find the fun in deer/sex and have a happy hour of brainfucking in the skies where the http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D dwell.
04:24:29 -!- ehird has set topic: #esoteric, find the fun in deer/sex and have a happy hour of brainfucking in the skies where the http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D dwell also sex buggery what's his name? i wonder what his name is because he always does that thing, that thing, you know.
05:41:49 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
05:48:00 <ehird> I wonder why we still have window titles
05:48:06 <ehird> does anyone actually look at the title inside the window?
05:48:17 <ehird> or the little window icon? should just put the menu there.
05:50:16 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
06:19:12 -!- ehird_ has joined.
06:25:06 -!- FireFly has joined.
06:28:20 <coppro> weird. My biggest complaint about this computer is something that the reviewers liked
06:28:47 <coppro> the screen's viewing angles
06:29:07 <coppro> there's a sort of bright bar when you're viewing it straight-on, and you can't get it to be uniform
06:29:16 <ehird_> yeah, that's called shitty TN screens for you
06:29:22 <ehird_> should have got a T60 IPS screen, silly rabbit.
06:29:44 <ehird_> Cheap, ubiquitous, shitty colours, shitty viewing angles.
06:30:06 <ehird_> IPS: In-Plane Switching. Expensive, rare, excellent colours, excellent viewing angles, (caveat: not-so-good response times).
06:30:29 <coppro> nonono, the viewing angles are amazing
06:30:39 <coppro> especially from the side
06:30:46 <ehird_> If you consider shit at every angle acceptable.
06:30:48 <coppro> except for when you're straight-on
06:31:07 <coppro> like, no loss of quality at 80 degrees horizontally either way
06:31:18 <ehird_> IPS looks near identical at all angles; you can go almost sideways and it looks exactly the same as straight-on.
06:31:26 <coppro> yes, that's how this looks sideways
06:31:30 <ehird_> TN might seem similar at first glance but it's simply not.
06:31:33 <coppro> not nearly as much up/down
06:33:09 <coppro> I have no complaints except for this nasty bar
06:33:45 <coppro> I cannot see any noticeable change at any sideways angle
06:33:52 <ehird_> just wait til you look at the same image on two screens and notice one looks crazy
06:34:03 <coppro> ehird_: I can recognize LCD distortion, thank you
06:34:15 <ehird_> TN distortion != LCD distortion
06:34:19 <ehird_> TN simply fails at colour reproduction
06:34:26 <ehird_> nothing to do with the colour distortion on angles
06:34:41 <coppro> well, the subject here was angles
06:34:54 <ehird_> I meant re "I have no complaints"
06:37:01 <coppro> actually, there's one other. It's hard to look at the screen in insufficient light, far more so than my previous one
06:39:48 * ehird_ glances at kubuntu 9.10 alpha6 page for a few seconds. yep, kde still sucks
06:40:50 <ehird_> i should be happy - the thing causing me to glance is that ubuntu's stock gnome is so out of my way and usable that it seems boring... because i never think about it
07:11:41 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
07:48:20 <ehird_> http://www.theonion.com/content/news/pepsi_to_cease_advertising
07:48:26 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Page closed").
07:48:35 <ehird_> if this was real i'd buy like 50 billion bottles of pepsi right now :P
07:51:11 <FireFly> 50 million bottles of pepsi on the wall, 50 million bottles of pepsi?
07:51:20 <FireFly> Would take some time to finish those
07:52:23 <ehird_> actually, i drink a lot of pepsi.
07:56:14 <pikhq> How very American of you.
07:57:27 <ehird_> it has an irritatingly addictive taste.
07:57:30 -!- ehird has quit (Nick collision from services.).
07:57:37 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird.
07:58:02 -!- ehird_ has joined.
07:58:55 <ehird> ehird_ is a ghost xchat i believe.
07:58:57 <ehird> fuck it in the ASS.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:15:19 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
08:55:28 <AnMaster> <Gregor> I read over the typo flawlessly :P <-- "reado"?
09:08:34 -!- Pthing has joined.
09:15:25 -!- ais523 has joined.
09:30:07 <ais523> hmm... it seems that Apple have been installing Apache on people's PCs without their permission
09:30:23 <ais523> as part of some other software they were pushing out
09:31:14 <ais523> it was an opt-out update with a confusing description
09:31:54 <ais523> atm, actually, I'm more interested in whether it had source code or not
09:31:57 <ais523> what licence is Apache under?
09:32:35 <ais523> well, it should be easy enough to look up
09:33:39 <ais523> non-copyleft, it seems
09:33:48 <ais523> it's pretty like the BSD licence, just massively more complicated
09:34:26 <ais523> OW! Windows 7's default desktop background is /hideous/
09:34:46 <fizzie> Is it the one in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Windows_7.png ?
09:35:24 <ais523> well, pretty much, the one there has a different gamma than the one here
09:35:27 <ais523> which is eye-burningly bright
09:35:49 <fizzie> It's just so powerful, you see.
09:36:16 <fizzie> Alternatively they're hoping it'll leave a permanent after-image on your retina. That's called "marketing".
09:36:43 <ais523> ok, now its busy advertising "libraries" to me
09:36:54 <ais523> which AFAICT are folders full of symlinks with marketingspeak layered over them
09:37:47 <ais523> because deleting a file from a library also deletes the original
09:37:56 <ais523> but deleting a directory inside a library doesn't delete the files inside it
09:38:11 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
09:38:31 -!- ais523 has joined.
09:38:32 <fizzie> Ha, they closed his connection before he could bad-mouth W7 any more.
09:38:38 <ais523> whoops, pressed the wrong button
09:38:56 <ais523> I meant to close the tab, I closed the window by mistake
09:39:08 <ais523> using the "actually close the window, don't just minimise it" shortcut
09:39:42 <ais523> hmm... it seems the operation of adding a file to a library therefore isn't easily reversible
09:40:02 <ais523> ah... unless it always contains all files in a folder, which would make sense, so why didn't the help file /say/ that?
09:41:01 <fizzie> "At your taskbar, click on to the Windows Orb on the taskbar --" that somehow sounds really silly.
09:41:13 <fizzie> The Windows Orb, a mysterious relic from the First Age.
09:41:41 <ais523> also, some scary messages in the help file; it seems that the manufacturer of a USB drive has to do something special to get it to work with libraries in Windows 7
09:41:52 <ais523> and the help file suggests we nag the manufacturer if it doesn't
09:42:08 * ais523 wonders if such changes would make the USB drive less compatible with other OSes
09:42:32 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 148 (No route to host)).
09:42:34 -!- ehird_ has quit (Read error: 148 (No route to host)).
09:42:37 <fizzie> "Use the Optimize this library for dropdown to select the correct type of optimization (General Items, Documents, Music, Pictures, Video, or Internet)". What does that do?
09:45:55 <ais523> wow, that Windows 7 taskbar thing is awful, it's basically like OS X's Dock except without the features that make the Dock actually useful
09:47:03 * ais523 boots into CentOS instead, now it's working
09:47:08 <ais523> let's see how bad it is...
09:49:24 <ais523> ok, this is weird, it's Gnome with a theme that makes it look vaguely like KDE
09:56:13 <ais523> AnMaster: different computer
09:56:19 <ais523> let me get IRC working over there first
09:56:31 -!- ais523_ has joined.
09:56:42 <AnMaster> ais523, so you finally got the login to that computer and made X start?
09:57:01 <ais523_> X was running fine, it's the video card that was messed up
09:57:06 <ais523_> I couldn't see either X or console
09:57:24 <ais523_> someone replaced the DVI cable with a VGA cable, and it works now
10:05:19 -!- ais523 has set topic: the world ends: ais523 has actually been thinking about Feather | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
10:06:03 <ais523> I think I know how to do it
10:06:25 <ais523> start with a minimal interpreter that's enough to 'be Feather' in that it can be retroactively self-modified
10:06:28 <ais523> and that's all you need
10:08:22 <AnMaster> ais523, that minimal one still sounds tricky
10:09:03 <ais523> because it wouldn't need to be written in Feather
10:09:05 <ais523> that isn't an "of course" with Feather
10:10:14 <AnMaster> ais523, it was "of course the outermost _interpreter_ can't be in Feather itself"
10:10:14 <AnMaster> (for compiler that works, if you start with hand compiling the first one)
10:10:14 <ais523> for a while I thought it had to be a Feather/something else polyglot
10:10:32 <ais523> but it turns out that you can see the source code of an interp even if it isn't written in Feather
10:10:35 <ais523> you just get a self-reference
10:23:30 <ais523_> basically, all that you need is an interp for a simple functional language
10:23:39 <ais523_> you don't need any more functionality than Unlambda has
10:23:51 <ais523_> with two changes: first, you need to be able to retroactively replace the interp
10:24:04 <ais523_> and second, it should be easy to write a polyglot in that lang and Feather
10:26:02 <ais523> conclusion: I need to learn Scheme
10:26:20 <ais523> or, well, any functional language (i.e. lang with first-class functions) that has call/cc
10:26:38 <ais523> I know Unlambda already, but I know enough Unlambda to know that that will be a bad idea
10:28:33 <ais523_> anyway: http://imgur.com/mTaiW.png
10:28:47 <ais523_> it's the taskbar that makes me think it's acting like KDE
10:28:51 <ais523_> it's a very KDEish taksbar
10:40:44 <ais523> at least the people here seem to know what software should be on a computer science computer
10:40:52 <ais523> it has emacs, XEmacs, /and/ gvim
10:40:59 <ais523> (and presumably the command-line versions too)
10:41:31 <ais523> annoyingly, although Evince is installed, Adobe Reader's default for PDFs
11:55:14 <fizzie> The store I bought the broken monitor from replied, told me to contact the manufacturer directly. The manufacturer replied, said they've outsourced service calls to some company called "Infocare", gave me a phone number. Now I've been sitting in their telephone queue system for the last twenty minutes or so, listening to annoying muzak and a "all aur lines are still busy" announcement which repeats every 30 seconds.
11:59:45 <fizzie> I hear some companies have built cussword recognition to their queue systems, to give preferential treatment to irate customers; maybe I should've tried that. (Too late now, they answered already; IRC complaining does the trick every time.)
12:00:46 <ais523> have they sorted out your problem?
12:01:54 <fizzie> Well, they'll send someone from yet another company (a courier service sort of one) to pick up the broken monitor. They didn't really tell me what they're going to do with it, though.
12:02:08 <ais523> hopefully give you a replacement, or fix that one
12:03:44 <fizzie> Yes, both sound just fine. Though I'm not looking forward to a replacement; it's bound to have some broken pixels, and that'll mean a horrible hassle, because the store I bought it from has a special "zero dead pixels" guarantee thing, which supposedly is for as long a time as the manufacturer's warranty, so I'd feel stupid to not take advantage of that.
12:04:57 <ais523> why would the replacement have broken pixels, if they had a no-broken-pixels guarantee/
12:05:22 <fizzie> It's not LG (the manufacturer) that has the guarantee, it's the retail store chain.
12:06:40 <AnMaster> <ais523_> it's a very KDEish taksbar <-- indeed
14:49:24 -!- clog has joined.
14:49:24 -!- clog has joined.
14:49:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
15:01:35 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
15:10:21 -!- coppro has quit ("I am leaving. You are about to explode.").
15:13:51 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
15:15:58 -!- Cerise has changed nick to Jerry.
15:18:01 -!- ehird has joined.
15:18:09 <ehird> 01:30:07 <ais523> hmm... it seems that Apple have been installing Apache on people's PCs without their permission
15:18:12 <ehird> well, it comes on all Macs
15:18:14 <ehird> almost certainly an oversight
15:18:15 -!- ehird_ has joined.
15:18:44 <ehird> 01:34:26 <ais523> OW! Windows 7's default desktop background is /hideous/
15:18:52 <ehird> that gamma must be _really_ bad...
15:18:59 <ehird> 01:36:43 <ais523> ok, now its busy advertising "libraries" to me
15:18:59 <ehird> 01:36:54 <ais523> which AFAICT are folders full of symlinks with marketingspeak layered over them
15:19:05 <ehird> it's like a saved search, sort of
15:19:12 <ehird> certain file types from certain directories, curated
15:19:56 <ehird> 01:45:55 <ais523> wow, that Windows 7 taskbar thing is awful, it's basically like OS X's Dock except without the features that make the Dock actually useful
15:20:03 <ehird> if you'd actually use OS X and win7
15:20:08 <ehird> you'd realise how utterly wrong you are
15:20:15 <ehird> OS X's is worthless and slow
15:20:19 <ehird> Win 7's is well-organised and fast
15:23:05 <ehird> 02:28:33 <ais523_> anyway: http://imgur.com/mTaiW.png
15:23:15 <ehird> why do people misguidedly hate the genius that is the two-panel system :(
15:25:43 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:26:46 <ehird> i talked a lot to you just before you return, heh
15:26:53 <ehird> (http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.09.29)
15:26:57 <ais523> my laptop went on standby
15:27:15 <ehird> i can't wait to logread
15:27:19 <ais523> so I'm leaving my laptop in it when I go to meetings
15:27:27 <oerjan> ehird: fizzie recaptured it after it came back
15:28:02 <ehird> so did anyone say anything when clog went
15:28:10 <ais523> also, three email accounts now
15:28:26 <ais523> yes, enough that I'll need to pastebin it
15:28:39 <ehird> ais523: anyway, summary of the few-line logreading if your browser is now nc(1) or something: "you're wrong! no, wait, whoever that is is wrong. correction, you're wrong!"
15:28:40 <oerjan> ehird: obviously what i said was incomprehensible, since it answered your question :D
15:29:18 <ais523> http://pastebin.ca/1584352
15:29:34 <oerjan> fizzie pasted before clog came back, duh
15:30:22 <oerjan> so, not only was it incomprehensible, it was also useless
15:31:01 <oerjan> nailing two birds with one stone since 1970
15:35:00 <ehird> so, I can probably get 24Mb internet!
15:35:19 <ehird> in other news, this is caused by moving. you may psychoanalyze the cause/effect relationship there.
15:35:56 <oerjan> well lessee, you are still living with your parents right?
15:36:35 <ehird> I meant how I put the internet as the main thing and the moving as a side-note
15:36:35 <ehird> but, err, being 14, yes
15:36:40 <ehird> well, technically false; parent
15:36:46 <oerjan> which makes it less likely that the move is the effect
15:37:01 <oerjan> unless your parent is as big a geek as you are
15:37:12 <ehird> quite the opposite
15:38:08 <oerjan> also i should probably qualify this since it varies so much by country: 24Mb would be an upgrade for you, right?
15:38:57 <ehird> currently on 8Mb. you, being a fucking ... uh ... Noir? i cannot think of an analog to Swede... probably have 100Mb.
15:39:19 <oerjan> norwegian, i know of no specific noun for it
15:39:57 <ehird> but I need something vaguely accusatory
15:40:02 <oerjan> actually i have never checked my speed. hm, how do i do that...
15:41:13 <ehird> speed tests are far too realistic and unboring because of servers slower than you, beyond a certain speed :P
15:41:18 <oerjan> the landlady got the broadband installed, despite being fairly (ok, totally) clueless in such matters
15:41:31 <ehird> so you don't know?
15:41:34 <ehird> I can check from your IP
15:41:41 <oerjan> well, i know the name, NextGenTel
15:41:44 <ehird> n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no
15:42:00 <ehird> oerjan: how much do you pay per month and does it include phone?
15:42:28 <oerjan> i pay nothing, it's included in the rent. although she increased the rent about 300 kr at the time
15:43:12 <ehird> then use http://speedtest.net/ (click the server it highlights in yellow) and I'll try and correlate that with your ISP's website and the 300 kr figure
15:44:26 <ehird> also pause any downloads before obvs
15:44:41 * ais523 tests the connection here at Birmingham University
15:44:54 <ais523> 10.42 MB/s download, 5.03 MB/s upload, 17ms ping
15:44:57 <ais523> that's a wireless connection, though
15:45:00 <ehird> ais523: probably 100Mb/s raw connection
15:45:08 <ehird> or even 1,000Mb/s, if they're fancy
15:46:01 <oerjan> 0.51 upload, 42 ms ping
15:46:01 <ais523> I've already closed the website
15:46:10 <ehird> oerjan: download is important
15:46:14 <ehird> the only erlevant one
15:46:34 <ehird> did it say Mb with a lowercase b?
15:47:11 <ehird> oerjan: you prolly have a 6Mb connection or so
15:47:27 <ehird> not very good I'm afraid :P
15:47:51 <ehird> <ais523> I have sideways 8 Mb, and I LIKE it!
15:47:58 <ehird> wait, that'd be 0Mb
15:48:01 <ehird> but infinite latency
15:51:48 <AnMaster> (about what you said about dmm)
15:53:16 -!- FireFly has joined.
15:53:50 * ehird wonders if there's a decent gnome usenet client, like a frontend to SABnzbd or something
15:54:28 <ehird> would also be cool if it had an interface to one of the big search sites but, you know, asking for too much
15:54:52 <ehird> http://www.lottanzb.org/ looks nice but depends on keeping the machine on instead of having a server download it
16:04:13 -!- Jerry has changed nick to Cerise.
16:04:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, I'm not Star Trek nerd enough to spot the reference in Darth & Droids today
16:04:39 <AnMaster> (that they are talking about in the annotation)
16:06:53 * oerjan doesn't consider himself a star trek nerd either, but he knows _that_ :D
16:09:13 -!- ais523_ has quit ("Page closed").
16:09:30 <ais523> ehird: did you see my CentOS screenshot earlier
16:09:44 <ehird> ais523: uh, read the logs :P
16:09:53 <ehird> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.09.29 press end
16:09:58 <ehird> although rather boringly
16:10:02 <ais523> I did, I just have a bad memory
16:10:37 <ais523> you replied to my Win7 discussion
16:10:43 <ais523> (they're the two OSes on my office computer)
16:10:59 <ehird> 07:23:05 <ehird> 02:28:33 <ais523_> anyway: http://imgur.com/mTaiW.png
16:10:59 <ehird> 07:23:15 <ehird> why do people misguidedly hate the genius that is the two-panel system :(
16:11:19 <ais523> got the reference wrong
16:11:31 <ehird> also, those icons scale horribly
16:11:48 <ehird> (but I smiled a little at the old-school Clearlooks; I love that look)
16:11:58 <ehird> ooh, and a Bluecurve terminal icon
16:12:04 <ehird> ais523: window decoration and gtk theme
16:12:14 <ehird> Clearlooks looks different nowadays but has a classic style available
16:13:28 <ehird> ais523: can't gnome do a two-line taskbar? everything else is insanity like that
16:13:48 <ais523> that taskbar is one-line; I'm not sure whether it can do two-line or not, although that one isn't
16:13:56 <ehird> anyway, I assume you're not allowed to muck with this computer, or you just have a weird adoration of bad operating systems :P
16:15:02 <ais523> not allowed to muck with it, yes
16:15:17 <ais523> also, can't without doing things like opening it up and resetting the CMOS battery
16:15:21 <ais523> or other similarly dubious things
16:15:24 <ais523> it's meant to be pretty locked down
16:15:27 <ehird> not much of a computer, then
16:15:36 <ais523> I'm mostly using my laptop as a result
16:19:18 <FireFly> I recognize it from somewhere, I guess it's been discussed here before
16:19:37 <ehird> ais523's magnum opus.
16:19:44 <ehird> that is, if it's ever made.
16:20:34 <ais523> FireFly: several languages, like Brainfuck, INTERCAL, and Malbolge, are much-reputed for driving people mad
16:20:38 <ais523> Feather is /actually/ driving me mad
16:20:43 <ais523> as in, I have trouble thinking about it
16:20:56 <ehird> I'm not sure it's actually a valid concept, so to speak
16:21:25 <ehird> You can only think of one incomplete projection of it into concept-space at once, sort of like a Klein bottle in 3d space
16:21:25 <ehird> and since they're inconsistent, it just confuses you
16:21:28 <FireFly> I don't expect to gain anything from this conversation, will I?
16:21:35 <ehird> i.e., it's impossible to express Feather
16:21:42 <AnMaster> wait what, updated kernel on ubuntu but the same /lib/modules/foo directory for old and new?
16:22:00 <ehird> FireFly: It's a programming language that you can modify (the interpreter) retroactively - so that it was *always* true, infinitely far back in time.
16:22:00 <ais523> maybe the update didn't break binary compatibility
16:22:10 <ais523> just because Linux isn't afraid to break binary kernel compatibility doesn't mean that every update necessarily does
16:22:15 <ehird> Including the interpreter used to interpret your modification, the one used to interpret that, etc.
16:22:21 <AnMaster> explains why the module was loaded without being having to rebuild it against new kernel though
16:22:40 <AnMaster> ais523, how do they make sure it doesn't... I mean it would need some pretty careful checking
16:23:04 <ais523> the API is defined, if the API didn't change (only the internals), you aren't breaking binary compat
16:23:46 <FireFly> As a side note, what's an approximation of the size of the channel logs?
16:23:57 <AnMaster> you can break ABI without breaking API
16:24:08 <ehird> FireFly: something like 50MB
16:24:08 <ais523> but an ABI is a sort of ABI
16:24:12 <ais523> and besides, the A isn't correct either
16:24:16 <ehird> <ais523> but an ABI is a sort of ABI
16:24:37 <ehird> FireFly: 50MB is an awful lot of text, we're quite popular
16:24:49 <FireFly> well, I guess it's a lot of text
16:24:51 <ehird> I may be wrong; it's been a while since I've had the logs downloaded
16:24:56 <AnMaster> ais523, is the ABI versioned or something? Or how do you check if it changed without reading every patch manually and checking carefully if those things are exposed to modules
16:25:10 <FireFly> We're not talking about flooding the server with requests
16:25:18 <ehird> Each file is only about 100KiB.
16:25:23 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm pretty sure that the release managers did read every patch
16:25:38 <ais523> because they need to know what they changed
16:25:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Dec 2002 - late 2008 iirc.
16:25:49 <ehird> FireFly: One of these days I'll get around to writing my script that downloads all logs since the last run (or the full set if you've never run it) and then munges them all to use UTC time.
16:25:55 <ais523> besides, for all we know it's just 2 patches to fix security problems, or something similarly important but simple
16:26:07 <ehird> AnMaster: It's *text*.
16:26:09 <AnMaster> ##linux is like 50 MB per month
16:26:15 <ais523> AnMaster: people nowadays underestimate how compact plain-text is
16:26:18 <ais523> I grew up with floppy disks
16:26:27 <ehird> if we assume an average english word length of 5 letters,
16:26:30 <ais523> for which 50 MB is about 2 boxes of disks
16:26:38 <FireFly> ehird, will you reupload the transformed logs? :)
16:26:42 <ehird> #esoteric has seen 10,485,760 words in its time
16:26:47 -!- kar8nga has joined.
16:26:51 <ais523> and you used to be able to fit lots of data on a disk
16:26:51 <AnMaster> ais523, if ##linux is around 50 MB per month... (well, 48.2 for last month according to du)
16:26:58 <ehird> give or take the timestamps and names
16:27:02 <AnMaster> after compression it ends up at 4.6 MB
16:27:02 <ehird> but it's close enough
16:27:24 <ehird> That's *ten million* words.
16:27:32 <ehird> ais523: how many words fit on an average book page?
16:27:50 <AnMaster> ehird, how large book is your average one
16:28:03 <ehird> Regular novel size.
16:28:10 <ais523> I don't have to guess, I actually counted for a school project once
16:28:13 <ehird> Deewiant: with 5-letter words, roughly?
16:28:14 <ais523> but ofc it depends on the book
16:28:19 <AnMaster> ehird, as in hardcover discworld book size?
16:28:53 <ehird> As in I don't know, I don't own any
16:29:12 <ais523> hardcover discworld is larger than the standard novel, I'd guess about 300 for it
16:29:16 <Deewiant> ehird: I dunno, I just recall 250 being cited as average in novel pages back in the typewriter days
16:29:21 <AnMaster> ehird, what about English hard cover edition of last Harry Potter book
16:29:22 <ehird> Anyway, the #esoteric book (assuming 50MiB logs) would have something like 52,429 to 41,943 pages.
16:29:22 <ais523> I don't own any either, but I've read them in the library
16:29:29 <Deewiant> And still being semi-standard for estimates
16:29:35 <ehird> Absorb that figure for a second.
16:29:40 <ehird> We have talked a *fucking* lot.
16:29:49 <ehird> ais523: 41 and 52?
16:29:56 <ehird> as a good compromise
16:30:03 <ais523> well, either way, it's about 100 large books, or maybe one bookshelf in a library
16:30:41 <ehird> So yeah, we're prolific.
16:31:04 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
16:31:20 <AnMaster> <ais523> well, either way, it's about 100 large books, or maybe one bookshelf in a library <-- Seen that wikipedia book?
16:31:29 <ais523> AnMaster: it's not the whole thing
16:31:31 <AnMaster> (might have been photoshoped, don't know)
16:31:31 <ehird> That was a subset of Featured Articless.
16:31:38 <ehird> Anyway, we'd be thicker.
16:31:41 <ehird> Much, much thicker.
16:32:01 <ehird> I doubt it'd be short enough to fit in any room in a typical house.
16:32:08 <ais523> the Encyclopedia Britannica takes up about two shelves, by comparison
16:32:29 <ais523> AnMaster: typical library shelf
16:32:35 <ais523> as in, I'm going on a copy of it I saw in a library
16:32:42 <ehird> Of course, I'm ignoring the fact that 90% of our ramblings are worthless shit and a selection of Wikipedia FAs and Britannica are both valuable resources.
16:32:45 <ais523> it's not as if I own it myself
16:32:57 <AnMaster> ais523, well, that would be some 20 meter long shelf if the local library is representative?
16:33:00 <ehird> Also, 74.9% of our lines are me. :P
16:33:19 <ais523> it's somewhere between 1 and 2 metres at the one I think of
16:33:26 <FireFly> Just think about the meta-nature of reading in the log-book about estimating the size of the same
16:33:28 <ais523> a 20 metre long shelf would be rather painful to attach to a wall
16:33:41 <ehird> FireFly: we'd better print it quick
16:33:58 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
16:34:32 <ais523> I suspect both ehird and AnMaster are too young to remember the days of floppy disks, where 1MB was a lot of storage
16:34:42 <AnMaster> ais523, there are some shorter ones too, around 5-10 meters I think. those that are free standing in rows, rather than attached to any wall. Oh and down in the magazine they are around 7 meters I think...
16:34:56 <ehird> i'm so happy you can buy a TB for $80 nowadays
16:34:57 <AnMaster> though it was ages ago I used any
16:35:01 <ais523> AnMaster: a floppy disk holds 1.44 MB under DOS or Windows
16:35:06 <AnMaster> ehird, after formatting and FS I meant
16:35:12 <ehird> AnMaster: well, duh
16:35:13 <ais523> something like 1.7 with certain Linux formats and FSes
16:35:18 <ehird> AnMaster: that's what my figure was
16:35:20 * ehird takes a screenshot, just because he's itching to play with Dropbox
16:35:24 <ais523> because they found a more efficient way to write the data to disk
16:35:40 <ais523> and you can get even more by forcing the drives to act in a way that the spec says they shouldn't
16:35:43 <ais523> but some drives break when you do that
16:35:45 <ehird> http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/Screenshot.png
16:35:53 <AnMaster> ais523, back then I was using Mac OS. So that was 1.44 - HFS metadata and such ~= 1.34 iirc
16:36:01 <ehird> It's, uh, very screenshotty.
16:36:39 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the combined band aid + gnome foot icon?
16:36:51 <ais523> ehird: that's your Ubuntu system?
16:36:58 <ais523> also, what's with the wooden-table wallpaper?
16:36:58 <ehird> Uh, that's the X-Chat X with the GNOME logo on top of it.
16:37:07 <ehird> i.e., X-Chat GNOME.
16:37:14 <ais523> you'd enhance the effect by hiding the panels
16:37:22 <ehird> ais523: that's my iMac with Ubuntu 9.10 on it
16:37:22 <ehird> also, I just like it
16:37:39 <AnMaster> ais523, hm any way to only get the "hide panel" button on one side of the panel?
16:37:47 <ais523> AnMaster: not that I know of
16:37:48 * ehird renames it to http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/dropbox-fun.png
16:37:51 <ehird> to avoid name clashses
16:37:54 <ais523> that's a KDE sort of question
16:38:08 <AnMaster> ais523, well I meant I want that in gnome
16:38:14 <ais523> ehird: what's with the Foonetic channels there, btw?
16:38:18 * oerjan was hoping for an actual picture of a bandaged gnome foot
16:38:24 <ehird> http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/nautilus-dropbox.png ;; this is what my Dropbox looks like in Nautilus
16:38:50 <ehird> it's, uh, pretty normal apart from that synchronized tick
16:38:52 <AnMaster> ais523, because with synergy I easily end up misclicking the hide button that is on the side that is "attached" between the screens
16:38:58 <ehird> which was blue and two arrows chasing each other (not animated) a few seconds beforehand
16:39:07 <ehird> (that little box in the system tray is dropbox)
16:39:14 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/nautilus-dropbox.png ;; this is what my Dropbox looks like in Nautilus <-- err same image as the first one?
16:39:20 <ehird> AnMaster: no it's not
16:39:29 <ais523> AnMaster: my guess is there isn't an easily exposed setting to do that sort of thing in Gnome
16:39:35 <ehird> http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/dropbox-fun.png
16:39:36 <ehird> http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/nautilus-dropbox.png
16:39:41 <ehird> one shows dropbox in nautilus
16:39:46 <ehird> showing my previous screenshot
16:39:50 <ais523> Gnome isn't very big on settings that not that many people need
16:40:01 <ehird> why hide a panel, anyway?
16:40:08 <AnMaster> ehird, why is the first one 404 now?
16:40:08 <ehird> both of them are used commonly, at least for me
16:40:16 <ais523> famously it refuses even to allow customisation of screensavers, but apparently that's to do with the individual maintainer rather than Gnome itself
16:40:19 <ehird> * ehird renames it to http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/dropbox-fun.png
16:40:20 <ais523> AnMaster: he renamed it
16:40:20 <ehird> <ehird> to avoid name clashses
16:40:21 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:40:29 <ehird> Screenshot.png isn't a very good name
16:40:37 <AnMaster> ehird, <insert rant about breaking URIs or something>
16:40:40 <FireFly> You know it's a screenshot, at least
16:40:55 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the green thing on the image for?
16:41:03 <ehird> AnMaster: "This file is synchronized with Dropbox"
16:41:13 <ehird> If it wasn't, it'd be blue and have two arrows (non-animatedly) chasing each other
16:41:18 <ehird> (sorta like the recycling icon)
16:41:27 <ehird> Then the Dropbox daemon updates them, and it turns to a tick
16:41:31 <AnMaster> ehird, did you mention what dropbox was anywhere?
16:41:40 <ehird> Dropbox is a file synchronization over multiple computers thing
16:41:46 <ais523> AnMaster: it's a proprietary file-synch thing
16:41:47 <ehird> It's just like a regular directory, that it automatically syncs
16:41:52 <ehird> ais523: only the daemon is proprietary
16:41:57 <ehird> the nautilus extension and system tray are open source
16:42:04 <ehird> ais523: besides, Ubuntu One is proprietary and does the exact same thing
16:42:07 <ais523> I know I've helped someone install it on Ubuntu before
16:42:10 <ehird> except all of it is proprietary, and it only works on Ubuntu
16:42:12 <ehird> and it abuses the trademark
16:42:14 <ehird> and it comes with Karmic
16:42:19 <ais523> and due to not being OS, it wasn't in the repositories, which made it more complicated
16:42:20 <AnMaster> ehird, how is it better than rsync for example?
16:42:22 <ehird> so I think Dropbox is positively benevolent in comparison
16:42:23 <AnMaster> and what computer are you syncing it with
16:42:36 <ehird> AnMaster: Because I can use it like a regular directory, and it just happens, in seconds, instantly
16:42:47 <ehird> AnMaster: And I can right click, Dropbox -> Get Public Link if it's in Public/
16:42:52 <ais523> I've heard awful stuff about paid software in the repos on Karmic
16:43:00 <ehird> And I can view it on the web, and upload files on the web
16:43:04 <ehird> AnMaster: Also, it stores revision history
16:43:08 <ehird> For something like 30 days
16:43:12 <ehird> (and also lets you undelete for that long)
16:43:25 <AnMaster> ehird, so where is this synced to? Some other computer on your network?
16:43:28 <ehird> I'm not actually syncing it to another computer, just playing with it
16:43:45 <AnMaster> I guess to some account on a server
16:43:49 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, uh, the Dropbox corporate servers. But the actual files are on every computer, so there's no risk, and I can easily use PGP or an encrypted loopback filesystem or whatever.
16:44:14 <ehird> It's all the rage with the Web 2.0 twitterblagosphere types.
16:44:32 * ehird tries making a loopback filesystem on it
16:44:36 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe using gmail as backend. Isn't it up at like 7 GB or something nowdays?
16:45:02 <ehird> One, that's probably against the TOS; two, 7374M(i?)B.
16:45:24 <ehird> Also, you can't share Gmail messages.
16:45:29 <AnMaster> that is still more than 2 GB yeah
16:45:36 -!- ehird has left (?).
16:45:42 -!- ehird has joined.
16:46:05 <AnMaster> * ehird (n=ehird@91.105.67.185) has left #esoteric ("Ex-Chat") <-- quite a bad pun IMO
16:46:19 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes. Doesn't make it any better
16:46:30 <ehird> Anyway, Dropbox is cool. I'm sort of itching to make My Own Far Superior Version that uses Amazon S3 as a backend and encrypts everything but, you know, I don't care what they see because I wouldn't store anything sensitive on it without encrypting it.
16:46:37 <ehird> Also the proprietary daemon sort of fails to bother me entirely.
16:46:57 <ehird> Also, loopback filesystems are cool.
16:47:20 <ehird> Oh, and Dropbox traverses symlinks, so you can use it as a sort of backup thingy.
16:47:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm wondering how hard it would be to make something like it that didn't use any corporate server but simply synced between your own computers in real time.
16:47:22 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
16:47:47 * ehird uses .xfs as a file extension for an XFS filesystem, because that's fun.
16:47:57 <ais523> what's wrong with that extension?
16:47:59 <ais523> it seems obvious to me
16:48:30 <ehird> Nothing; it's just fun to have things like foo.ext3 lying around.
16:48:40 <ehird> Because loopback filesystems feel so, well, exotic. And file extensions don't.
16:48:53 <ehird> I can almost imagine double clicking it and opening it like a folder in Nautilus 27.49.
16:49:04 <ais523> Nautilus should so do that
16:49:08 <ais523> after all, Archive Mounter exists
16:49:16 <ehird> Aw, Ubuntu doesn't ship with XFS?
16:49:26 <AnMaster> <ehird> Because loopback filesystems feel so, well, exotic. And file extensions don't. <-- how does loop filesystems feel exotic?
16:49:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Because they're fun!
16:51:20 <AnMaster> 1) fun - well, maybe. 2) uncommon - yes, because most of the time they are pretty useless, exceptions would be: mounting isos; testing/debugging new file systems/file system features; encrypted fs in a file
16:51:38 <ehird> So many... opportunities!
16:51:42 -!- augur has quit (Connection timed out).
16:51:45 <ehird> Fun filesystem nested testing VM cheesecake boom!
16:52:14 <ehird> One downside: There ought to be a mount you can use as non-root.
16:53:54 <ehird> Tee hee, I now have "dropbox" with an HD icon on my desktop. Let's see if syncing works properly.
16:54:22 <ehird> Oh, ext4 will be delaying gedit's writes, won't it.
16:54:24 <ehird> Let's unmount that thing.
16:55:00 <ehird> ehird@ehird-desktop:~/Dropbox$ ln -s test.ext4 Public/2009-09/
16:55:10 <ehird> Brought to you by the "this is so cool that it can't possibly work" department.
16:55:20 <ehird> Oh darn, the link is broken.
16:56:12 <ehird> There, now let's see if it stored two copies. (Probably not, since it appeared synchronized first thing, which is cool.)
16:56:20 <ehird> Meanwhile: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/test.ext4
16:58:21 <ehird> Eh, it probably did.
16:58:24 <ehird> That link is disappearing now.
17:01:12 <ehird> Anyway, can someone tell me who thought Nautilus tabs were a good idea?
17:01:15 <ehird> I cannot think of a single usecase.
17:03:23 <ais523> much the same way as Firefox tabs
17:03:39 <ais523> because I was working in one directory structure
17:03:45 <ais523> then wanted to open a second whilst still working on the first
17:03:57 <ais523> (Enigma levels and Enigma source, as it happens)
17:04:14 <ehird> ais523: ever heard of windows?
17:04:31 <ehird> i mean, browser tabs are an acceptable kludge because our window management facilities suck so much, but for two folders?
17:04:31 <ais523> ehird: opening two windows would just be clutter
17:04:48 <ais523> I like alt-tab to remain relatively sane
17:04:52 <ais523> besides, it was for two related things
17:05:05 <ais523> if it was for two completely different things, they'd be in different windows, maybe even different desktops
17:05:08 <ehird> Two windows for two things you're working on.
17:05:09 <ais523> but when I'm switching quickly back and forth
17:05:12 <ehird> Uhh, that sounds like... you know...
17:05:14 <ehird> The purpose of windows.
17:05:20 <ehird> s/that line/oblivion/
17:06:25 <ais523> ehird: Windows are a pain to switch using the mouse, you have to move it a long way from where you're actually working
17:06:31 <ais523> and a pain to switch using the keyboard if you have too many
17:06:44 <ais523> whereas tabs are right next to the contents of the window themselves
17:06:48 <ehird> have you ever heard of Fitt's Law? the window switcher panel is very efficient
17:06:52 <ais523> I don't even like the concept of tabs above the address bar for that reason
17:07:03 <ais523> ehird: you have to move the mouse /back/ again afterwards
17:07:12 <ais523> and Fitt's Law applies to the contents of the window too
17:07:27 <ehird> doesn't matter, you have to move a bad Fitt distance with tabs
17:07:34 -!- augur has joined.
17:07:34 <ehird> it's more than "right here", but not enough to throw the mouse
17:07:56 <ehird> anyway, two windows != tons
17:08:12 <ehird> and i postulate that by the time you have enough nautilus windows for it to be a pain, you've forgotten about some of them
17:08:16 <ais523> and I had 8 windows open at the time
17:08:28 <ehird> ais523: so, would you appreciate a program that is just one program, with tabs, for every program you have open?
17:08:35 <ehird> OH WAIT THAT'S CALLED A WINDOW SWITCHER :P
17:08:48 <ais523> ehird: it would be useful /if/ I could choose which programs went there and which didn't
17:08:58 <ais523> also, if they nested too
17:09:02 <ehird> why do you have programs open you don't wnat?
17:09:06 <ehird> also, use ion or something
17:09:10 <ais523> ehird: why do you have programs open you don't want /now/
17:09:13 <ehird> it has window tabs, probably nested even
17:09:25 <ehird> ais523: I generally try to not
17:09:51 <ais523> let's just say, not every program in the whole world is both intelligent enough to manage 100% persistency even when closed, and opens up instantly
17:09:57 <ais523> this is a shame, but it's the current situation
17:10:02 <ehird> Yes, but Nautilus is.
17:10:15 <ais523> it would take a while to navigate to the folder in question
17:10:32 <ais523> it's something like 8 or 9 levels deep in the directory structure
17:10:46 <ehird> Anyway, we're talking two folders. I guarantee that beore Nautilus tabs you'd have had no issues whatsoever with it.
17:11:24 <ehird> also, I found the silliest microsoft ad ever!
17:11:24 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJp6NThk7XE
17:12:05 <ais523> ehird: before then I used command-prompt tabs, because it was a pain to do what I wanted via the API
17:12:31 <ehird> I also never use terminal tabs! I'm so crazy.
17:12:46 <ehird> Probably because context switching terminal/GUI is quite expensive.
17:12:56 <ais523> before /then/ I used multiple folder windows on Windows, and that was a real pain because sometimes there'd be so many the titles were abbreviated to one letter
17:13:07 <ehird> I think you need a window GC.
17:13:17 <ais523> ehird: that was mostly due to bugs in Windows
17:13:19 <ehird> God knows I do sometimes.
17:13:45 <ais523> but a window GC would only be useful if it was easy to restore them to the state they were in when they were closed
17:13:49 <ais523> which is a point you still haven't addressed
17:13:56 <ais523> yes, I know programs ought to be able to do that
17:13:58 <ais523> but most of them can't
17:14:01 <ehird> It could just move them to a "crap" workspace or something.
17:14:18 <ehird> Anyway, I never have problems. Maybe you just think I'm an extremist about closing apps.
17:14:21 <ehird> Honestly I have quite a lot open.
17:14:31 <ehird> Maybe it's because I have a big screen, so the window clickies are bigger.
17:14:42 <ehird> Whereas your tiny screen can comfortably switch, what, 5 windows? :P
17:15:20 <ais523> the window switcher can manage about 7 or 8, but I rarely use it, mostly because it involves using the mouse
17:15:37 <ehird> You know, I'm not sure GNOME is for you. :P
17:15:40 <ais523> and even when I'm doing Enigma work or web browsing, something similar that needs the mouse a lot, I don't like moving it all the way to the bottom of the screen
17:15:54 <ais523> and GNOME works just fine for me, I just use the features of it that you keep bashing as unnecessary
17:16:12 <ehird> ah, now that I'm not sleep-deprived I'm going to play some more Enigma
17:16:25 <ais523> (I do use the window switcher to easily see which windows I have open, it's how I noticed that I'd accidentally opened two Evolution windows, for instance)
17:16:36 <ehird> ais523: I think I tend to be a GNOME extremist just because I really like the philosophy
17:17:05 <ehird> I suppose to try and shape more accurately what "GNOMEishness" is in the minds of others, because I hate it when people go "lol removing options = betar gnome"
17:17:41 <ehird> ais523: Enigma VII has some really long times
17:17:57 <ais523> it has some really long levels
17:18:06 <ehird> hmm, where's that one
17:18:14 <ehird> ais523: for instance, #2 Diving
17:18:19 <ais523> also, because I've been working on Enigma 1.1 for so long, I keep on thinking of enigma VIII and enigma IX
17:18:20 <ehird> 48:14 par, 5:46 record
17:18:22 <ehird> par is probably way off
17:18:24 <ais523> which have some even bigger levels
17:18:31 <ehird> due to the shitty par calculation
17:18:35 <ehird> ais523: does Ubuntu have 1.1 yet?
17:18:43 <ehird> if so, is there a ppa?
17:18:48 <ehird> or any sort of repo with binaries?
17:18:52 <ais523> you have to compile yourself, or there are some "milestone" builds
17:18:57 <ais523> only for mac and windows, though
17:19:31 <ehird> oh god, I hate DownDown
17:19:35 <ehird> it just makes me stress out
17:19:46 <ais523> it's actually not too hard
17:19:50 <ais523> I used to find it massively ahrd
17:19:54 <ehird> it is because I can't play it calmly
17:19:58 <ais523> but did it with loads of time to spare when I tried recently
17:20:05 <ehird> ais523: #21 Cold Meditation, world record 18:53
17:20:07 <ehird> jesus fucking christ.
17:20:44 <ehird> Enigma VI has more long times
17:21:05 <ais523> ehird: I've found links to the snapshot binaries for Windows and Mac
17:21:07 <ais523> do you want one or the other?
17:21:16 <ehird> ais523: neither, I'll compile the source
17:21:19 <ehird> due to using Ubuntu nowadays
17:21:38 <ais523> "apt-get build-depends enigma" will get you nearly all the dependencies you need
17:21:41 <ehird> is it just me, or is VI#23 just designed to have every-fucking-thing in the game?
17:22:21 <ehird> Prepare Your Defense
17:22:36 <ehird> (also, what mouse sensitivity do you use? I can't get a good value. Using a wireless optical mouse with two batteries (so quite a bit heavier than a wired mouse or a one-battery wireless mouse) on a felt pad.)
17:22:42 <ais523> it's very highly rated, which means it's pretty complicated
17:22:54 <ehird> ais523: and the times are insane
17:23:09 <ais523> and I use normally 7, although I adjust it to 15 for levels which are predominantly ice, and 1 for parts of levels where you go through death-stone corridors or other similarly narrow fatal bits
17:23:41 <ehird> 7 is way too sensitive, I'll fall into everything
17:23:43 <ehird> 5 seems acceptable
17:24:01 <ais523> really, the optimal value depends on the adhesion of the underlying floor
17:24:11 <ehird> what, of the mouse?
17:24:24 <ehird> as I said, felt pad
17:24:29 <ais523> because the mouse-marble relationship is mouse sensitivity * adhesion
17:24:32 <ehird> so quite resistant, although not terribly
17:24:32 <ais523> oh, I meant the floor of the level
17:24:45 <ehird> anyway, maybe I should try a trackball
17:24:48 <ehird> that would be ideal for enigma
17:24:54 <ais523> e.g. ice you want to set it to 10 times your standard value, if you can
17:24:59 <ehird> second place probably going to a TrackPoint nub
17:25:01 -!- ehird has quit ("Ex-Chat").
17:25:07 <ais523> as that gives the same effect as your standard value does on ordinary floors
17:25:09 <ais523> well, more like 8 times
17:25:12 -!- ehird has joined.
17:25:18 <ehird> what did I miss, and what did I last say?
17:25:20 <ais523> [17:25] <ais523> as that gives the same effect as your standard value does on ordinary floors
17:25:21 <ais523> [17:25] <ais523> well, more like 8 times
17:25:24 <ais523> [17:24] <ehird> second place probably going to a TrackPoint nub
17:25:35 <ehird> carry on from there then :P
17:25:51 <ais523> standard adhesion's something like 1.2, IIRC
17:25:56 <ais523> although the "good" floors have higher values
17:26:07 <ais523> that is, good as in non-evil
17:27:11 <ehird> agree about trackball/trackpoint btw?
17:27:42 <ais523> I've played Enigma on a trackball
17:27:50 <ais523> I was about as good with it as I am with a mouse
17:27:56 <ais523> and considering I've practiced for months with a mouse, that's saying something
17:28:20 <ehird> I love Enigma, even though I'm really, truly awful at it
17:28:21 <ais523> (it would also avoid the problem with the mouse reaching the edge of the table; recentering it is ofc possible but takes time, which can be valuable in Enigma)
17:28:42 <ehird> btw, how do you jump over the fucking water in time in VI#35 Phaeton?
17:29:32 <ais523> it is possible, but note that that's rather a complex level with several possible ways to go about it
17:29:37 <ais523> and I can't remember which one is correct
17:29:43 <ais523> (I have par on that level, which I'm quite proud of)
17:29:48 <ehird> i did it fine, but now I have no idea wtf the next bit is
17:30:22 <ais523> you do need to get ready before you set off the lightpassenger
17:30:29 <ais523> remember that you can lasertransform things
17:30:44 <ais523> there's a laser, isn't there?
17:30:49 <ais523> also, you can even blocktransform things
17:30:51 <ehird> I don't actually know what lastertransforming is...
17:30:53 <ais523> the lightpassenger is a sort of block...
17:31:04 <ais523> ehird: haha, that could explain a lot that you're missing about Enigma
17:31:18 <ais523> not-very-spoily version: some items react weirdly to being hit by lasers
17:31:25 <ehird> it's not exactly very discoverable...
17:31:26 <ais523> I'll give you a spoilier one if you like
17:31:33 <ehird> I'll just try all of them
17:31:37 <ehird> it's not like I have a life
17:31:37 <ais523> ehird: "Advanced Tutorial" gives some hints
17:31:50 <ehird> Hey an umbrella for my money.
17:32:49 <ais523> one of the LotM essays has a fictional book called "Item Transformation for Dummies" that the black marble carries around with him
17:33:04 <ehird> Sunglasses! Stylish.
17:33:42 <ehird> VI#45 Wormhole Madness!
17:34:17 <ais523> those records have since been beaten
17:34:28 <ais523> par 12:04 record 3:41 with up-to-date data
17:34:38 <ehird> VI#44 Dancing on Light Beams record is 0:09, how the fuck
17:35:05 <ais523> I'm not actually sure how to do the level without it
17:35:18 <ais523> I get the lightpassenger to the end, and use it to knock the impulse stones out of the way
17:35:28 <ais523> then I turn the laser off so I can get at the oxyds, and it bounces back down the corridor
17:35:36 <ais523> OTOH, I'm not good enough to do the level using the shortcut...
17:35:42 <ehird> jesus christ @ Hot Meitation
17:35:57 <ais523> I've actually done that one, I think
17:36:14 <ais523> it isn't actually a speed level
17:36:18 <ais523> well, not unless you're going for the world record
17:36:27 <ais523> my time is 1:04, 8 seconds over par
17:36:51 <ehird> enigma should have keyboard shortcuts for "slow" and "fast"
17:37:00 <ehird> say, normal = 5, slow = 3, fast = 10
17:37:13 <ehird> hold down shift/ctrl or whatever
17:38:03 <ehird> it's easy enough to script that, but might be considered cheating that wya
17:38:26 <ais523> you could try asking on the mailing list
17:38:39 <ehird> but I'd have to subscribe
17:38:56 <ais523> I'm subscribed, but then I'd have to actually pull together the effort to care
17:39:01 <ais523> which is being spent on other things atm
17:39:36 -!- Pthing has joined.
17:40:44 <ais523> I know that level quite well
17:40:47 <ais523> it also gets very high ratings
17:40:58 <ais523> and high ratings is a bad sign for difficulty
17:41:03 <ais523> people seem to like the massively long hard ones better
17:41:32 * ehird solves VI#60 in world record time
17:41:39 <ehird> (not new world record, but still)
17:42:05 <ais523> one of my levels has an author time of 22:45
17:42:08 <ehird> can it even be solved in 0:02?
17:42:15 <ais523> (which is technically world record, as I don't think anyone else has solved it yet)
17:42:46 <ais523> "Jump into Meditation"
17:43:03 <ehird> it's ridiculously easy
17:43:16 <ais523> which is equal to the world record
17:43:23 <ais523> and it's rare that a world record can't improve on the author
17:43:35 <ais523> who is just trying to solve it to set some author time, rather than trying to get good at it, usually
17:43:44 <ehird> yeah, if you're quicker than 0:03 you just die
17:44:04 <ais523> the times reflect the difficulty quite well
17:44:16 <ais523> it wouldn't be so bad if it used sensible floors
17:44:24 <ehird> that doesn't sound hideous
17:44:27 <ais523> but putting abyss and space and swamp and inverse in it is just unfair
17:44:35 <ais523> 9:25's the world record
17:45:05 <ais523> must have been renumbered for 1.1
17:45:05 <ais523> I'm thinking of "The Cube"
17:45:12 <ais523> you're looking at the easy mode
17:45:31 <ehird> I'm not using Hard.
17:45:43 <ais523> the easy mode of that level is OK
17:45:51 <ehird> ok, look at VI#100
17:45:53 <ehird> that time is ridiculous
17:45:54 <ais523> it's the hard mode that's a bitch, and is one of the things that makes me want to leave it for the last level I ever do
17:46:06 <ais523> and VI#100 is infamous
17:46:19 <ais523> it was obviously destined for a #100 slot
17:46:21 <ais523> it's just that sort of level
17:46:29 <ais523> I've never got past the third room on it
17:46:33 <ais523> and the second is really tedious
17:46:37 <ais523> which is /not/ a good combination
17:47:03 <ais523> #98 is rather difficult, it's one of the hardest one-screeners there, apparently
17:47:19 <ais523> and #99 is really a pain
17:47:25 <ais523> due to the white marbles falling in the water all the time
17:47:28 <ais523> and it not being obvious what to do
17:47:43 <ehird> I can't figure out #100's first room...
17:47:56 <ais523> one of the blocks is movable, and there's a hidden trigger
17:48:05 <ais523> (this bodes badly for the rest of the level, btw)
17:49:17 <ais523> bothering with it can be a bad idea, because room 2 is a) moderately difficult, b) very boring, and c) has about 4 or 5 plausible solutions, only one of which is correct and you don't find out which until much later
17:49:41 <ehird> room 2 looks easy, which means it's probably hard
17:50:12 <ehird> haha went south, straight into water
17:51:11 <ais523> incidentally, there's an infamous bit much later on in the level, which I've never reached
17:51:19 <ais523> apparently it's a maze involving death-stones and swamp
17:51:33 <ehird> does enigma 1.1 have the copyrighted music?
17:51:35 <ehird> ubuntu's package doesn't
17:51:39 <ehird> which makes me :sad:
17:52:25 <ehird> link to svn repo or whatever?
17:53:03 <ais523> svn://svn.berlios.de/enigma-game
17:53:50 <ehird> does it have the debian/ directory, I wonder?
17:54:14 <ais523> I have the repo here, I'll check
17:55:24 <ais523> yep, no debian/ directory
17:56:16 <ehird> well, it lets you make a .deb
17:56:18 <ehird> but I'll just use checkinstall
17:56:39 <ehird> I don't believe in just hoping I never need to remove something from /usr/local, you see
17:56:53 <ehird> (is trunk rather stable or should I keep the repo around for updating?)
17:57:30 <ais523> they tend to rename things a lot, so keep the repo
17:57:45 <ais523> also, they're forever fixing bugs and graphics and so on
17:57:51 <ehird> hmm... does dpkg have a replace-package command?
17:57:59 <ehird> i.e., I know you have that deb; forget about it, this is the new version
17:58:06 <ehird> that's basically uninstall+reinstall, but still
17:58:31 <ais523> but I rarely mess with dpkg directly
17:58:36 <ais523> except when fixing broken distro upgrades
17:58:48 * ehird wonders whether he should install it in /usr or /usr/local
17:58:57 <ehird> in /usr would break any Ubuntu Enigma, unless,
17:58:59 <ehird> does it name things -1.1?
17:59:01 <ais523> /usr/local if you aren't using the package manager
17:59:06 <ais523> and no, it just uses the old names
17:59:07 <ehird> checkinstall creates a deb
17:59:11 <ehird> by looking at every filesystem change
17:59:32 <ehird> it's very clever, you can just do "sudo checkinstall", describe the package, and it installs it into dpkg with "make install"
17:59:39 <ais523> install in /usr, uninstall if an official version comes out
17:59:49 <ais523> I installed into /home, with a separate .enigma directory
17:59:53 * ehird purges Ubuntu's Enigma
18:00:01 <ehird> (don't want any stray conflicting configuration files...)
18:00:07 <ais523> because I didn't want to lose my records on the official Enigma while I worked on the development one
18:00:25 <ehird> I'm terrible at it, so that's not a worry
18:00:39 * ehird wonders whether he should do something crazy, like symlink all my dotfiles into Dropbox
18:00:49 <ehird> If I used emacs, my .emacs would never be desynchronised!
18:01:04 <ehird> ehird@ehird-desktop:~$ rm -rf .enigma
18:01:04 <ehird> .enigma/ .enigmarc.xml
18:01:11 <ehird> ...why do you have a directory if you have a file too?
18:01:35 <ehird> checking out enigma sure is taking a long time
18:01:53 <ais523> I'm 57th best in the world by level percentage completion
18:02:12 <ehird> well, there are only about 100 Enigma players :-P
18:02:23 <ehird> ehird@ehird-desktop:~/enigma-game$ ls
18:02:23 <ehird> add-ons branches feature_branches homepage tags team_levelpacks trunk
18:02:29 <ehird> ais523: you could have linked me to the trunk...
18:02:43 * ehird wonders where to put the repo
18:02:47 <ais523> ehird: that's the only link I know
18:02:54 <ais523> I mean, it's the one on the website
18:02:56 <ehird> ais523: you should check it out with /trunk after it
18:02:59 <ais523> I didn't realise you could check out subrepos in svn
18:03:02 <ehird> otherwise you check out every branch, the homepage, every release
18:03:13 <ehird> it can't go in ~/Keep/2009-09/, because it changes...
18:03:21 <ehird> maybe I should make ~/Volatile, or something
18:03:25 <ehird> for stuff that changes that isn't mine
18:03:55 <ais523> I have ~/research/ which is almost exactly that
18:04:05 <ehird> I love how academic that sounds
18:04:16 -!- Asztal has joined.
18:04:50 <ais523> out of all my directories, it's probably the one with the most subdirs
18:05:08 <ais523> apart from one that's a backup of stuff that was on previous computers
18:07:53 <ehird> I was about to use ~/Crap, but that's for crap I made already.
18:11:00 <ais523> how's the install going?
18:11:20 <ehird> I wiped the repo to redownload just the trunk, but I'm still hemming-and-hawing about a directory...
18:11:31 <ehird> ooh, how about ~/NIH? :-D
18:11:50 <ehird> ~/NIH/enigma go go go
18:11:54 * ais523 wonders whether me liking something makes it more or less likely ehird will use it
18:12:16 <ais523> wow, the Enigma devs seem to be on holiday
18:12:21 <ehird> (I wonder why I name bottom-level directories lowercase, but the rest Title-Cased English (although I rarely use anything but [A-Z][a-z]+)
18:12:23 <ais523> only change last week was a tweak to the Makefile
18:12:27 <ais523> when normally there are loads of changes
18:12:36 <ehird> probably running out of things to change.
18:12:46 <ais523> nah, I submitted a huge number of new levels last week
18:13:24 <ais523> together with corrections to 2 more
18:15:43 <ehird> okay, now to figure out what I need to ./configure
18:15:58 <ehird> configure.ac:110: warning: macro `AM_PATH_SDL' not found in library
18:16:02 <ehird> should that *really* be a warning? :P
18:17:59 <ais523> they added one new dep, IIRC
18:18:03 <ais523> although I can't remember offhand what it's on
18:18:13 <ehird> i'm sure i can handle one strenuous apt-get line
18:18:22 <ehird> I wish bash had a name for '& disown'
18:18:33 <ehird> pronounced "and STAY out!"
18:18:41 <ehird> ais523: so if you close the terminal it stays
18:18:41 <ehird> basically, it deparents the process, I think
18:18:51 <ais523> is that yet another variant on nohup and friends?
18:18:53 <ehird> otherwise, you have a bunch of background processes lying around
18:19:03 <ehird> ais523: nohup is not actually meant to do it as its main purpose, I think
18:19:08 <ehird> besides, it creates "nohup.out"
18:19:15 <ais523> agreed, its main version is insulation from SIGHUP
18:19:18 <ais523> which is what I generally use it for
18:20:26 <ehird> uh oh, I'm becoming a fan of Ubuntu's text rendering
18:21:12 <ehird> because I'm losing everything that defines me!!!
18:21:18 <ais523> (incidentally, I saw that Reddit post on the differences between Arial and Helvetica; you're right, Helvetica's much better where they differ at all)
18:21:48 <ehird> ... are we swapping?
18:22:00 <ais523> I never disliked Helvetica, in that I never really had a chance to see it
18:22:52 <ehird> the thing I notice most about Arial/Helvetica is the R
18:23:00 <ehird> Arial's slanted R just looks awful with all the other letters
18:23:12 <ais523> annoyingly, the R is Arial-like in this font too
18:23:14 <ais523> and looks bad here too
18:23:29 <ehird> About That I'll Rant.
18:23:36 <ais523> not too bad amongst capitals, but glaring amongst lowercase
18:23:42 <ehird> It's monospaced, though, so it's not exactly a paragon of typographical elegance any way you look at it.
18:23:52 <ehird> XChat-GNOME just looks awful in a proper font.
18:24:02 <ais523> monospaced isn't meant to be typographically elegant, I don't think
18:24:04 <ehird> I've forgotten the term for non-monospaced... proportional.
18:24:15 * ehird wonders whether to start making separate build directories
18:25:07 <ehird> the INSTALL tells me to do it in-directory, so I will! also I am lazy.
18:25:30 <ais523> most people never bother to make really proper build systems, like C-INTERCAL's
18:25:35 <ehird> --enable-tools Build developer tools default=no
18:25:42 <ehird> what're they? are they shiny?
18:25:54 <ais523> I doubt they're for level development
18:26:11 <ehird> He may have being sarcastic
18:26:18 <ais523> Deewiant: INTERCAL attempts to be unlike all other programming languages
18:26:19 <ehird> ais523: I know, but can you, like, mess with scores and internal values and stuff, I wonder?
18:26:21 <ehird> That would be fun.
18:26:27 <ais523> this includes having a build system that supports everything
18:26:41 <ehird> --enable-experimental Include experimental features default=no
18:26:43 <ais523> such as in-tree, out-of-tree, parallel make, running with and without install, and crosscompile
18:26:56 <ehird> Looks shiny. Looks dangerous.
18:26:57 <ehird> --enable-optimize Compile with optimizations default=no (whyever not?)
18:27:01 <ais523> very few build systems can manage all of that
18:27:18 <ehird> is optimisation disabled for dev purposes?
18:27:28 <ais523> probably to make it easier to debug
18:27:29 <Deewiant> Really? Seems relatively trivial to me
18:27:32 <ehird> ehird@ehird-desktop:~/NIH/enigma$ ./configure --prefix=/usr --enable-tools --enable-experimental --enable-optimize
18:27:38 <ehird> I wonder if this will break stuff.
18:27:51 * ehird updates system first, though
18:28:57 <ehird> Software Center is quite annoying at the moment...
18:29:10 <ehird> right now it's an Install/Remove... with an uglier interface and more confusing terminology
18:29:49 <ehird> also, "Ubuntu Software Center" both needlessly references Ubuntu in the menu and doesn't give any sort of hint; what's wrong with Install/Remove... or even clearer, Install/Remove Applications...?
18:29:58 <ehird> ais523: previously Software Store. Aren't you on Karmic alpha?
18:30:02 <ais523> oh, they're replacing Synaptic for Karmic, aren't they?
18:30:10 <ais523> I'm on Jaunty-proposed
18:30:11 <ehird> It just replaces Install/Remove... atm.
18:30:27 <ais523> which means I get fixes before they're properly tested
18:30:31 <ehird> But it'll replace Install/Remove..., Synaptic, Update Manager and Computer Janitor in 10.04 or thereabouts.
18:30:31 <ais523> but am otherwise on Jaunty
18:30:58 <ais523> as long as apt-get keeps working, I'll probably use that
18:31:03 <ais523> if the GUI things are too obnoxious
18:31:08 <ais523> Synaptic works but is kind-of bland
18:31:12 <ais523> (probably that's all for the best...)
18:31:17 <ehird> It's called "Ubuntu Software Center" in the Applications menu, which isn't helpful and references Ubuntu, uses a fixed blue colour scheme for the application view and the main page (think iTunes store), doesn't have enough whitespace
18:31:26 <ehird> In actual usage, it's just like Install/Remove....
18:31:28 <ehird> So it's not much of a problem.
18:31:41 <ehird> ("....", agh. I need to start using the proper ellipsis character.)
18:31:58 <ais523> I have no idea what iTunes looks like
18:32:22 <ehird> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ShssuEE1cx0/SqTDb0dQhtI/AAAAAAAADuA/bH9ZyFPRhEM/s400/Spotify+iphone+App+store.jpg
18:32:38 <ehird> imagine that thing's body, but far simpler and without the gradient; that's what Software Center looks like
18:33:11 <ehird> ais523: screenshot: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/software-center.png
18:33:38 <ehird> the actual design document on the Ubuntu wiki is excellent apart from the name and the "Department" terminology, but the application itself doesn't live up to it yet
18:33:51 <ehird> however, it's fine as an Install/Remove... replacement and easier to use for e.g. package descriptions.
18:33:54 <ehird> Also it has screenshots on some apps, which is fun.
18:34:15 <ais523> probably from the Debian Screenshot Project
18:34:25 <ehird> they have a debian spiral when there is no screenshot
18:34:46 <ehird> (also, that screenshot was ridiculously easy to take; I can just hit Print Screen, hit enter, go to Places -> Shared, right click it, and Dropbox -> Copy Public Link.)
18:34:57 <ehird> (It seems a bit convoluted, but I can have a URL to a screenshot on my clipboard in about five seconds.)
18:35:08 <ehird> well, technically I rename it before hitting enter, but.
18:35:15 <ehird> configure: error: libcurl is required to compile Enigma
18:35:31 <ehird> Package libcurl-dev is a virtual package provided by:
18:35:31 <ehird> libcurl4-openssl-dev 7.19.5-1ubuntu2
18:35:31 <ehird> libcurl4-gnutls-dev 7.19.5-1ubuntu2
18:36:23 <ais523> curl is to download the updated par times and world records
18:36:31 <ais523> that's opt-in on the options screen
18:36:40 <ehird> (which should I pick?)
18:36:52 <fizzie> One of those didn't handle SSL parameter renegotiation (used when there are some directory-specific SSL-related things), but it's possible they both do it right nowadays.
18:36:54 <ais523> it probably doesn't matter
18:37:03 <ehird> APT is licensed under GPL. libcurl can be used with both OpenSSL and GnuTLS. In case of OpenSSL a special exemption clause would be required for making it possible to link with both libapt-pkg and OpenSSL. We will try to get a written permission to do this from the previous apt copyright holders. Until we have that, we will use gnutls.
18:37:14 <ehird> from the ubuntu wiki about apt+https
18:37:27 <ehird> Curl: libcurl GnuTLS insufficient cert verification Vulnerability
18:37:27 <ehird> 10 Jul 2007 ... libcurl (when built to use GnuTLS) fails to verify that a peer's ... Note that libcurl needs to be built to use GnuTLS for this flaw to be ...
18:37:52 <ehird> this is just ridiculous
18:38:12 <ais523> OpenSSL I reasonably trust, although I'm not sure why
18:38:26 <ehird> openssl's code is gnarly
18:38:36 <ehird> otoh, gnutls seems to be way less popular
18:38:37 <ais523> and GNU's code is gnuy
18:38:40 <ehird> and there's that vulnerability
18:38:43 <ehird> so openssl is probably a better bet
18:38:49 <ais523> I imagine it would be...
18:38:52 <ehird> probably, but still
18:39:01 <ehird> I don't trust the GNU project to be very good with things like side-channel attacks
18:39:07 <ehird> they're too busy making their code look like ELEGANT LISP
18:39:33 <ehird> Note, selecting libcurl4-gnutls-dev instead of libcurl4-dev
18:39:40 <fizzie> I wonder if xmonad would be better than awesome; after all, Haskell obviously beats Lua, which I don't much like.
18:39:40 <ehird> Ubuntu tries to make my decision for me!
18:39:55 <ais523> oh, you just installed the virtual
18:39:59 <ehird> fizzie: The "it recompiles your configuration file to a binary then uses that instead of xmonad" rubs the wrong way with me.
18:40:04 <ehird> ais523: well, it's prompting me, but yes
18:40:09 <ehird> let's go with it, then
18:40:22 <ais523> this explains why C-INTERCAL depends on "gcc or a C compiler"
18:40:30 <ais523> it's giving a strong hint that gcc is probably the best one to use
18:40:33 <fizzie> ehird: Saying "+" in aptitude on the xmonad line says "will use 111MB of disk space", which sounds a bit excessive.
18:40:43 <ehird> fizzie: That's probably ghc.
18:40:52 <ehird> fizzie: You need the compiler for the configuration, you see.
18:40:58 <ehird> Because it's compiled and used instead of your xmonad binary.
18:41:08 <ehird> Did I mention that xmonad's configuration is shoehorning Haskell?
18:41:20 <fizzie> I have ghc already, though. But there's quite a lot of things that were not included by the "ghc6" package itself.
18:41:33 <ehird> Yes, Debian's infamous shitsplitting strikes again.
18:42:40 <fizzie> Awesome's configuration file is a Lua script, and I get a vaguely ill feeling whenever I have to do something to it.
18:43:26 <ehird> Use ion3(plus), then. Not only does it use a Lua config file, it also has an obnoxious author and license.
18:43:53 <fizzie> It doesn't support my uneconomical penis extend... I mean, Xinerama.
18:44:03 <ehird> There's a patch for that!
18:44:38 <ais523> ehird: iPhone app store parody?
18:44:40 <ehird> Enigma is now configured
18:44:40 <ehird> Source directory: .
18:44:40 <ehird> Installation prefix: /usr
18:44:40 <ehird> C++ compiler: g++ -DENABLE_ASSERT -O2 -ffast-math -fomit-frame-pointer -DCXXLUA
18:44:40 <ehird> Libraries: -lcurl -lxerces-c -lpng -ldl
18:44:43 <ehird> Languages:de fr nl it es sv ru hu pt fi uk be el
18:44:45 <ehird> If these values seem to make sense, you can now run make.
18:44:47 <ehird> ais523: heh, no, but let's pretend it is; that's a good one
18:45:05 <fizzie> Sorry, according to the fact I used the wrong word there; I should've said "rub" instead of "support".
18:45:06 <ehird> ais523: does it take a long time, Enigma? to compile
18:45:17 <ais523> maybe about 10 minutes on this computer
18:45:26 <ais523> the install takes a while too, though, because it has to copy a huge number of files
18:45:44 <ais523> ehird: the *1.5 is apparently due to a scheduler bug
18:45:46 <ehird> g++ -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I../../src -DENABLE_ASSERT -O2 -ffast-math -fomit-frame-pointer -DCXXLUA -MT extractbitmaps.o -MD -MP -MF .deps/extractbitmaps.Tpo -c -o extractbitmaps.o extractbitmaps.cpp
18:45:47 <ehird> extractbitmaps.cpp: In function ‘int main(int, char**)’:
18:45:47 <ehird> extractbitmaps.cpp:81: error: ‘exit’ was not declared in this scope
18:45:47 <ehird> extractbitmaps.cpp:87: error: ‘exit’ was not declared in this scope
18:45:47 <ehird> extractbitmaps.cpp:94: error: ‘exit’ was not declared in this scope
18:45:48 <ehird> extractbitmaps.cpp:103: error: ‘exit’ was not declared in this scope
18:45:53 <ais523> (does Enigma parallel-make correctly, btw?)
18:46:00 <ehird> It seems quite slow, but it probably works.
18:46:06 <ais523> also, what a weird error?
18:46:21 <ehird> "Did I mention, exit was not declared in this scope."
18:46:42 <ais523> it's like someone forgot to include <cstdlib>
18:47:03 <ais523> but I don't get that error...
18:47:03 <ehird> Do these people not... test this thing?
18:47:17 <ehird> It includes stdio.h.
18:47:20 <ehird> Maybe something weird.
18:47:26 <ehird> ais523: maybe my options are fucking things up
18:47:40 <ais523> that's a C++ file we're talking abuot
18:47:41 <ehird> make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/ehird/NIH/enigma/lib-src/oxydlib'
18:47:55 <ehird> ais523: so do you compile with the experimental features on?
18:47:57 <ehird> --enable-experimental
18:48:17 <ais523> no, I use standard config
18:48:24 <ais523> as in, configure without arguments except for prefix
18:48:30 <ehird> But okay, that's probably for the best.
18:48:33 <fizzie> "I will also not provide support for versions of Ion that have been corrupted with support for such things as Xft/fontconfig, and such versions may not be distributed as “Ion”."
18:48:35 <ais523> the game is fun, the compile doesn't have to be
18:48:52 <ehird> fizzie: you could just use multiple root windows, you know
18:49:37 <ehird> I want to stab people who use recursive make.
18:49:39 <fizzie> Again, I want Firefox windows on multiple screens without running multiple instances, and as far as I know it still can't do that.
18:50:03 <ehird> fizzie: VNC to a non-displayed screen</please don't kill me>
18:50:21 <fizzie> Now that there sounds like an elegant solution.
18:50:37 <ehird> fizzie: Or use a better browser!
18:50:42 <ehird> fizzie: Like Opera! Tuomov looooooooves Opera.
18:50:56 <ehird> Especially because it doesn't use GTK+, which is horrible GNOME crap.
18:51:11 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:52:15 <ehird> "density: command not found".
18:52:19 <ehird> Let's try that but without parallel.
18:52:30 <ehird> (What is density?)
18:53:20 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:53:23 <ais523> and it isn't in the repos
18:53:36 <ehird> Must be an Enigma thing that didn't get compiled yet, then.
18:53:49 <ais523> could be one of those funky dev tools
18:53:53 <ais523> that you're trying to compile
18:54:03 <ehird> No, I gave up on that.
18:54:08 <ehird> This is generating some artwork stuff.
18:56:42 <ehird> Still can't fucking find it.
18:56:46 <ehird> I think density is some imagemagick thing.
18:57:49 <ehird> let's try that again
18:58:03 <fizzie> I don't think it has density; mine has the binaries compare, animate, convert, composite, conjure, import, identify, stream, display, montage and mogrify.
18:58:32 <ehird> ais523: is there a file listing all the deps...?
18:58:41 <fizzie> In addition, packages.debian.org finds a "density" binary only from 'emboss', a molecular biology thing.
18:59:04 <ais523> ehird: not as far as I know
18:59:10 <ehird> Yes, but the calls look like ImageMagick calls.
18:59:29 <ehird> density -PixelResolution 154x324 {...} foo.png ../bar.png
18:59:36 <ehird> (made up, just an example of the s
18:59:36 <ehird> /usr/bin/convert -density 112x112 -units PixelsPerCentimeter -crop 48x48+0+0 ../../../data/gfx48/it_coin_s.png it_coin_s.png
18:59:42 <ehird> It tried to find convert.
18:59:45 <ehird> It couldn't find it.
18:59:50 <ehird> So $(CONVERT) -density became -density.
18:59:54 <ehird> And somehow the shell dropped the -.
19:00:00 <ehird> And... the rest is ...
19:00:05 <ais523> and no, Make dropped the -
19:00:07 <ais523> it has a special meaning in make, IIRC
19:00:11 <ais523> although I can't remember what it is
19:00:15 <ehird> /usr/bin/convert -density 112x112 -units PixelsPerCentimeter -crop 48x48+0+288 ../../../data/gfx48/thief_capture_template.png thief_template.png
19:00:15 <ehird> make[3]: *** [st_thief_drunken.png] Aborted (core dumped)
19:00:15 <ehird> make[3]: *** Waiting for unfinished jobs....
19:00:15 <ehird> That, that is... that is not good.
19:00:36 <ais523> why would imagemagick be doing that?
19:00:48 <ehird> Let me clean, configure and try again.
19:00:49 <fizzie> Make has a special meaning for the - prefix, it's that ignore-errors thing or something.
19:01:00 <ehird> fizzie: That'd explain why it did multiple ones.
19:01:04 <fizzie> "To ignore errors in a command line, write a `-' at the beginning of the line's text (after the initial tab). The `-' is discarded before the command is passed to the shell for execution. "
19:01:07 <ehird> And errored out when it tried to access the produced files.
19:01:33 <ais523> would have been even more fun if the first command-line option had been a real command
19:02:54 <ehird> ais523: like rm -f, destroying the source files
19:03:02 <ehird> "Why are you doing that, Enigma?"
19:03:24 <ais523> it's unlikely that a program would accept -rm -f as options, and that someone would write it like that and not as -rmf
19:03:37 <ehird> convert assert failure: convert: magick/image.c:4516: SyncImagesSettings: Assertion `images != (Image *) ((void *)0)' failed.
19:03:37 <ehird> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/imagemagick/+bug/438884
19:03:39 <ehird> Reported with glee.
19:03:52 <ehird> I like how that only took a few clicks.
19:04:10 <ehird> ais523: ImageMagick style programs don't allow -combiningoptionsbecausetheyrelikelongoptions
19:04:28 <ais523> but programs with long - options tend not to use names like "rm" and "f"
19:04:42 <ehird> Ever seen rxvt options (and maybe xterm)?
19:04:44 <ehird> -sb for scrollbar.
19:05:08 <ehird> Heh, without -j3 it works. Coincidence or crazy ImageMagick bug?
19:05:16 <ehird> "Can only run two instances of ImageMagick at once"
19:05:29 <ehird> Okay, install checkinstall then sudo checkinstall time.
19:05:44 <ais523> maybe the image file was somehow unlinked while it was running?
19:05:55 <ehird> The package documentation directory ./doc-pak does not exist.
19:05:55 <ehird> Should I create a default set of package docs? [y]:
19:05:55 <ehird> Such a tricky question.
19:06:03 <ais523> I can sort-of imagine an fstat to check size, followed by opening after that, and crashing if it was unset in-between
19:06:04 <ehird> Is Enigma's documentation built by default?
19:06:24 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:06:34 <ais523> and very useful if you plan to make any levels
19:06:39 <ais523> (less useful but not bad if you just plan to play)
19:06:43 <ehird> So I need to move it around. Blah.
19:06:59 <ais523> you can just read it from the build tree, though
19:07:15 <ehird> Well, it'll do "make install" like normal; it just won't go into the official package thingy, whatever that is.
19:07:23 <ehird> And you know what, I don't even fucking care :P
19:07:46 * ehird copies Ubuntu's description of Enigma
19:08:46 <ehird> except for "This package contains the game engine." :P
19:09:00 <ehird> 0 - Maintainer: [ root@ehird-desktop ]
19:09:10 <ais523> that's a great maintainer
19:09:30 <ehird> o Optionally you can make a directory called "doc-pak" whose contents
19:09:30 <ehird> will be installed in /usr/doc/<package_name> inside the package you're
19:09:30 <ehird> about to create. checkinstall will remind you about this one if it notices
19:09:30 <ehird> there is no "doc-pak" on the source directory. Good candidates to be there
19:09:30 <ehird> are: README, INSTALL, COPYING, Changelog, TODO, CREDITS, etc. It's up to you
19:09:31 <ehird> what to copy in there.
19:09:50 <ehird> OTOH, it'll already do that.
19:09:50 <ehird> So to hell with it.
19:10:14 * ehird sets maintainer to ehird@ehird-desktop for logi
19:10:51 <ehird> I think I'll name it enigma-svn
19:12:01 <ehird> ais523: so this is 1.1, right?
19:12:13 <ais523> it's 1.01 (1.1 compatibility branch)
19:12:14 <ehird> 3 - Version: [ 1.1 ]
19:12:14 <ehird> 4 - Release: [ 1 ]
19:12:28 <ehird> should release be something like svn1077 (the revision number?)
19:12:34 <ais523> the engine is 1.1-compatible almost exactly, the interface is somewhere in-between
19:12:45 <ehird> ais523: is that what you use?
19:13:09 <ais523> yes, for level development
19:13:13 <ais523> and playing new API levels
19:13:21 <ais523> I use the Ubuntu package for playing old ones
19:13:27 <ehird> so should release be svn1077 or whatever?
19:13:55 <ais523> you may want to call the version something like 1.1~svn1077
19:14:04 <ais523> so it sorts correctly in debianbetical order
19:14:07 <ehird> 3 - Version: [ 1.01 ]
19:14:07 <ehird> 4 - Release: [ svn1815 ]
19:14:08 <ehird> I'm not sure what that maps to
19:14:46 <ehird> also, 1.1? isn't it 1.01? :P
19:15:06 <ehird> 6 - Group: [ checkinstall ]
19:15:17 <ais523> ehird: you could count forwards instead
19:15:20 <ehird> 8 - Source location: [ enigma ]
19:15:20 <ehird> 9 - Alternate source location: [ ]
19:15:20 <ehird> 10 - Requires: [ ]
19:15:20 <ehird> 11 - Provides: [ enigma ]
19:15:24 <ais523> in Debianese, 1.1~ means "before 1.1
19:15:31 * ehird changes provides to enigma-svn
19:15:40 <ehird> god, I can always change it
19:15:59 <ais523> provides is for things that depend on it
19:16:01 <ehird> ======================== Installation successful ==========================
19:16:01 <ehird> grep: /var/tmp/tmp.YhomUNcJHg/newfile: No such file or directory
19:16:19 <ais523> as in, "provides: enigma" means that things that depend on enigma will be OK to install if it's installed
19:16:24 <ehird> Copying files to the temporary directory...
19:16:31 <ehird> ais523: right; don't want to mess with that
19:16:33 <ehird> yay, it's going on
19:16:37 <ehird> installing debian package!
19:16:45 <ehird> Done. The new package has been installed and saved to
19:16:45 <ehird> /home/ehird/NIH/enigma/enigma-svn_1.01-svn1815_amd64.deb
19:16:45 <ehird> You can remove it from your system anytime using:
19:16:45 <ehird> dpkg -r enigma-svn
19:17:00 <ehird> what's apt-cache show on a .deb?
19:17:27 <ehird> Version: 1.01-svn1815
19:17:37 <ehird> since it's -svn, using ~ doesn't make sense
19:17:44 <ehird> since it'll almost immediately advance beyond any particular release
19:18:02 <ais523> so that'll sort correctly wrt the released versions
19:18:12 <ehird> yay, it's in my menu
19:18:35 <ehird> that might be from Ubuntu, but who cares
19:18:49 <ehird> ais523: you lied, the music is different :(
19:19:06 <ais523> it alternates between them
19:19:06 <ais523> enter a level and exit
19:19:20 <ehird> Pentagonal Dreams!
19:19:25 <ehird> is it just me, or is the mouseover button effect obnoxiously loud?
19:19:38 <ehird> ais523: Pentagonal Dreams is the catchy and legally dubious one
19:19:39 <ais523> it can be; you can tone effects down in options
19:19:40 <ehird> so I'll stick with it
19:19:58 <ais523> default's to alternate
19:19:59 * ehird ups the resolution
19:20:02 <ehird> what do you use? I use 800x600
19:20:02 <ais523> and yes, I know the names of the musics
19:20:15 <ais523> because it fits exactly between the panels
19:20:25 <ais523> it's sort-of the perfect size for this screen res
19:20:37 <ehird> 1024x768 puts a border around some levels
19:20:45 <ehird> so I guess 800x600 is "show me all of it"
19:21:09 * ehird turns on ratings update
19:21:09 <ais523> some of mine are in the dev version
19:21:26 <ais523> do a search for "Alex Smith" if you're interested
19:21:27 <ehird> peculiar UI for choosing a language; shouldn't it be based on locale?
19:21:51 <ais523> click "search" and it'll create a "search results" levelpack for you
19:22:04 <ehird> wat@tutorial level sierpinski
19:22:16 <ais523> heh, that one's always fun
19:22:36 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:22:58 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
19:23:22 <ehird> wow, my system lags loading the IX thumbnails
19:23:31 <ais523> it's regenerating them
19:23:36 <ehird> coffee? do I spot a joke?
19:23:39 <ais523> the thumbnails only need generation once
19:24:01 <ais523> I needed to find 9 useless items that looked different
19:24:08 <ais523> (useless in the context of the level, except for a specific reason)
19:24:21 <ehird> I didn't even notice
19:24:55 <ehird> ais523: mouse speeds in this version are slower
19:25:02 <ehird> 7 is acceptable, whereas it was intolerable before
19:25:20 <ais523> either that, or you're playing my levels and I generally use high-friction floor
19:25:29 <ehird> oh, that might've been the floor
19:25:33 <ais523> that's my only level in IX; most of them are in VIII
19:25:50 <ais523> #83 to #88 inclusive are all mine
19:26:55 <ais523> (you might recognise a couple of them from Agora, if you were paying attention there; I translated them)
19:27:20 <ehird> i'm walking without fear in VIII#6, have covered most of the level, and only died once, on my first tile
19:27:32 <ehird> i guess it disables after the first boom :P
19:27:43 <ais523> but after it explodes, it's unsolvable
19:28:07 <ais523> it's another level along the same lines as Su Dyxo and Enigris
19:28:13 <ehird> is there an "update level times now" button?
19:28:16 <ehird> Enigiris? is that tetris?
19:28:31 <ehird> wow searching is awkward
19:28:31 <ais523> it's in the old version, somewhere in level pack IV IIRC, and of course hasn't been deleted
19:28:41 <ehird> click a button, enter, go to level packs again, all level packs, choose search results
19:28:43 <ais523> ehird: yes, having to hover the mouse in one place, that's a UI fail IMO
19:29:00 <ehird> what do you mean hover it?
19:29:13 <ais523> also, it should jump straight to the search results pack if you search
19:29:44 <ais523> you used to have to hover the search box to be able to type there
19:29:59 <ais523> but, it's jumping straight to the search results for me, if I click on "search"
19:29:59 * ehird wonders if Experimental#6 is solvable
19:30:03 <ais523> I haven't tried pressing return
19:30:55 <ais523> and experimental#6 appears to have no pearls (for a meditation level), no oxyds, and no opals
19:30:55 <ais523> so I think it's unsolvable
19:32:05 -!- jix_ has quit ("Lost terminal").
19:32:35 <ehird> dunno#dunno Fool the Warden is fun
19:32:39 <ehird> (searched for foo)
19:32:47 <ais523> it's one of the old ones IIRC
19:35:36 <ais523> wrt your comment about coffee, finding uses for coffee has been a sort-of habit for level designers
19:35:55 <ais523> for instance, you can block lasers with it
19:39:17 <ehird> fool the warden keeps me playing...
19:39:51 <ais523> because it's easy but time-consuming until right at the end
19:40:03 <ais523> also, I'm not sure what the correct order to move the pearls in is
19:40:12 <ais523> hmm... if I'm thinking of the right level
19:40:17 <ais523> I may be thinking of something else
19:42:34 <ais523> that one annoys me too
19:42:39 <ais523> it's a different one, though
19:43:58 <ais523> just completed it in 1:02
19:44:03 <ais523> obviously I've got better since I last tried
19:44:20 <ais523> now, playing it on the version that actually counts!
19:44:41 <ais523> (and the one I was discussing before was "Fool the Watchdog")
19:44:47 <ehird> does the ball have a speed limit?
19:45:09 <ais523> and I don't think there are speed limits apart from mouse detection and floating-point roundoff errors
19:45:20 <ehird> because i'm spinning between... I think ice, and space
19:45:37 <ehird> currently going up/down very rapidly, only slightly left
19:45:37 <ehird> before that i was bashing around wildly
19:45:37 <ehird> it's quite fun to watch, and i'm flickering
19:45:42 <ais523> well, the mouse speed is ignored in space, and mostly ignored in ice
19:45:42 <ehird> so i think i'm going insanely fast
19:45:42 <ehird> especially since i dropped two items
19:45:47 <ehird> when i hit that column
19:45:47 <ehird> they both popped instantly
19:45:51 <ais523> so yes, you're going insanely fast
19:46:16 <ehird> it looks like i'm going smoothly now, but I bet i'm going so fast, it just looks that way
19:46:39 <ehird> didn't there used to be a thing that'd reset you back
19:46:53 <ais523> you mean, an item? to jump back to the start?
19:46:59 <ais523> it_ring does that on a single-player level
19:47:00 <ehird> no, but after a while on space, you got put back
19:47:08 <ais523> that's never been the case
19:47:15 <ehird> maybe a level did i t
19:47:15 <ais523> although people often either put magnets near space, or add gravity
19:47:27 <ehird> i skipped over solid stuff
19:47:27 <ais523> for that sort of reason
19:47:31 <ehird> and just glided to a reset position
19:47:41 <ehird> oh god invisible blocks
19:48:36 <ais523> especially as I went round the massive level twice and still couldn't figure out what I was meant to do
19:54:16 * ais523 waits for you to comment on one of eirs
19:54:44 <ehird> Rainbow Adjacencies: oh god.
19:55:03 <ais523> you remember that one?
19:56:21 <ais523> I like its preview image
19:56:52 <ehird> From Six To Twenty-Six: what is this I don't even
19:57:38 <ehird> Transforming Numbers: um
19:57:43 <ais523> it's the other Agoran level
19:57:52 <ais523> and Transforming Numbers is great, it's one of my favourites out of my own levels
19:57:58 <ehird> Deathbridge: Oh no, not this again. ...better try it
19:58:41 <ais523> you should have a go at Transforming Numbers (since renamed Number Crunching); note that that version has a shortcut but it's not one you're likely to discover, so playing an unfixed version should be fine
20:00:17 * ehird dies in Deathbridge, goes again
20:00:42 <ais523> (I mean, it took me months to discover the shortcut, and I wrote the level in the first place...)
20:00:55 <ehird> isn't such a shortcut good?
20:01:09 <ehird> also, *Deathbridge, goes
20:01:19 <ais523> it's a shortcut of the nature of "1% of the time this level is really easy, most of the time it's standard-difficulty")
20:01:29 <ais523> which basically just encourages grinding
20:01:44 <ehird> ah, so not knowledge-based?
20:01:59 <ais523> in fact, it's only ever come up twice to my knowledge
20:02:05 <ais523> and once it was someone else who reported it
20:02:09 <ehird> like "if we slip here, turn this on, bash these here, turn that off and turn on the laser, it hits the block to open up the passageway accidentally"
20:02:22 <ais523> there's a lot of randomness in level generation
20:02:39 <ais523> so you can't even influence it in the level play itself
20:04:43 <ehird> what's up with IX#7?
20:04:53 <ehird> (and is there a more standard naming convention than what I'm using?)
20:05:02 <ais523> you are using the standard
20:05:13 <ais523> although in the dev versions, we generally just use names as the numbers aren't fixed yet
20:05:33 <ehird> quite obvious, though
20:05:37 <ais523> you use the names in the Enigma packs, as every level's in one of those
20:05:44 <ehird> hard to look up, though
20:05:53 <ehird> it's technically in the level info, but
20:06:16 <ais523> have you seen the opal levels, by the way?
20:06:25 <ehird> is there enigma pong? oh, you made it didn't you?
20:06:27 <ehird> ais523: nope; pack?
20:06:41 <ehird> I seem to recall your enigma pong sucking
20:06:42 <ais523> ehird: 1.1 new has several, or I'll find a reference in VIII if you like
20:06:47 <ais523> I haven't submitted it
20:07:12 <ehird> What's the first? Minopal?
20:07:18 <ehird> Symopal? Brilliant Opals?
20:07:19 <ais523> VIII#57 is the only one I've actually done, though
20:07:36 <ais523> (and Coober Peddy is the one I've done)
20:08:05 * ehird has an idea for enigma tennis
20:08:26 <ehird> it's one of those little white balls, and the lua code makes it jump across some solid blocks when it hits
20:08:32 <ehird> can't do bouncing, but oh well
20:08:47 <ais523> just use st_portal_pearl
20:08:47 <ehird> you could enforce e.g. 1 hit/2 hits max
20:08:53 <ais523> which bounces everything but little white balls
20:08:54 <ehird> ais523: because you should bash into it
20:08:59 <ehird> well that's good then
20:09:19 <ais523> (for most of the things you want in Enigma, there'll be some object that does something similar...)
20:10:40 <ehird> is minopal meant to be hard?
20:10:52 <ais523> most of the new levels /are/ hard
20:10:59 <ehird> it's just tedious so far
20:11:04 <ais523> sufficiently so that I'm deliberately aiming to make easier ones to bring the average difficulty down
20:11:12 <ais523> the issue with opal levels normally happens towards the end
20:11:21 <ais523> when you end up stranding a couple of the opals
20:11:26 <ehird> well I'm fucked then
20:11:31 <ehird> I've just been bashing them semi-randomly
20:11:35 <ehird> and finding matching ones
20:14:28 <ehird> ais523: idea for enigma tennis - oxyds randomly appear on the opponent's side
20:14:38 <ehird> so not only do you have to shoot in a way advantageous to you over the AI, you have to try and hit the oxyds
20:14:51 <ais523> ouch, creating and deleting oxyds is a pain
20:14:52 <ehird> (and the opponent can, at your side, shoot blocks which invert your movement or something and act as obstacles for you to boot)
20:14:56 <ais523> do you mean, just randomly generating them?
20:15:18 <ehird> the latter idea is even more fun, though
20:15:29 <ehird> you have to avoid it because it'll harm you, and you have to desperately defend it from your opponent
20:15:34 <ehird> until it disappears
20:15:44 <ehird> (maybe it disappears by hitting a block on the opponent's side)
20:15:54 <ais523> why would you defend an oxyd from your opponent?
20:16:00 <ais523> it doesn't matter who hits it
20:16:05 <ais523> defending a quake stone would be more fun
20:16:07 <ehird> ais523: because it inverts your movement
20:16:15 <ehird> so you have to avoid it, and stop your opponent hitting it
20:16:19 <ehird> quake - like earthquake?
20:16:23 <ehird> just that sort of stuff
20:16:26 <ais523> I'm not sure if there are any movement-inversion stones, although you could script it with a monoflop
20:16:29 <ais523> quake = reset all oxyds
20:16:41 <ehird> could you do an earthquake?
20:16:44 <ehird> move all blocks left
20:16:46 <ehird> move all blocks right
20:16:50 <ais523> other ideas: cracks (that cause the floor to weaken and eventually disappear), that's earthquake-like
20:16:51 <ehird> (including balls and everything)
20:17:03 <ehird> (also a few blocks instead of one, likely)
20:17:12 <ehird> maybe make the player shake a bit to boot
20:17:22 <ehird> ais523: oh man, cracks would be great
20:17:27 <ehird> what happens if the ball goes in :D
20:17:39 <ais523> it would lose a life and respawn
20:17:47 <ehird> I double-punned this into Enigmenace, but that doesn't mention tennis :P
20:17:50 <ais523> a bit weird for tennis balls to lose life, but that's the way the game works...
20:18:11 <ehird> ais523: could it be rescripted so that the ball, as soon as it hits it, just disappears and you lose a point?
20:18:31 <ehird> at the end of the game, you have to wait a certain amount of time depending on the final score, too
20:18:33 <ehird> (to add to the time)
20:18:33 <ais523> just give it infinite lives, that's pretty simple
20:18:44 <ehird> ah, i thought you meant respawn the whole player
20:18:48 <ais523> and no, make it so you win when you're, say, 10 points up
20:19:30 <ais523> ofc, you'd die if the player fell through a crack
20:19:38 <ais523> so even a simple it_crack_s would be rather dangerous
20:19:42 <ais523> even if was set not to spread fast
20:20:44 <ehird> couldn't you give the player infinite lives for that part?
20:20:54 <ais523> more fun: a life dispenser
20:20:57 <ehird> otoh, the player falling through the crack should count as a death, no?
20:21:00 <ais523> somewhere off the court, say
20:21:11 <ais523> so you had to neglect the game for a bit to stock up
20:21:14 <ehird> except in the time-outs, there's one of those things that chase you and kill you
20:21:20 <ais523> likewise, you could have a switch that fixed the floor
20:21:22 <ehird> and an extra sort of level thing
20:21:27 <ehird> haha, this'll be great
20:24:39 <ehird> ais523: the AI would have to be pretty good, though
20:24:43 <ehird> otherwise it'd be easy
20:24:50 <ehird> ais523: ooh, how about a block that connects you to the tennis ball?
20:24:57 <ehird> or, that connects the opponent to you
20:25:08 <ais523> a switch that adds a rubberband? wouldn't be too hard
20:25:20 <ais523> or you could have it happen when the opponent ran over a rubberband item
20:25:20 <ehird> yep, the question is what sort of game mechanics it leads to
20:25:44 <ais523> improving the AI shouldn't be hard with the new API
20:25:50 <ais523> which lets you do much more interesting things than the old one did
20:25:58 <ehird> Horrible, horrible idea: multiball mode!
20:26:15 <ehird> Leading to additional idea: Enigma pinball.
20:26:30 <ais523> I thought of that, but the flippers would be hard to do
20:26:35 <ais523> and you couldn't really see what was going on
20:26:43 <ehird> you can't in some pinball games for dos, either
20:26:48 <ehird> with the scrolling mode
20:26:49 <ais523> (without some crazy messing about with primary actors and scroll modes; actually, I think I know how to do that)
20:28:40 <ais523> the trick would be to set the pinball as the primary actor for the player, but make it uncontrollable
20:28:44 <ais523> probably using space or zero adhesion
20:28:48 <ais523> come to think of it, you wouldn't need other actors
20:28:56 <ais523> and for flippers, just put areas of controllable floor
20:30:31 <ehird> and put oxyds around the level?
20:31:01 <ais523> in typical pinbally places, I suppose
20:31:12 <ais523> the main issue would be the lack of angled surfaces
20:31:27 <ehird> anyway, Enigmennis, with its horrible name, sounds like a more fun idea
20:31:31 <ais523> without those it would look unrealistic and be hard to prevent the ball getting stuck
20:32:42 <ehird> Enigma should add networked multiplayer, I can see a lot of potential in both cooperative and competitive levels
20:32:54 <ehird> like one where you need to move both the black and white balls at the same time to achieve something; cooperative
20:32:59 <ehird> or enigmennis; competitive
20:34:42 <ais523> they want to add networked multiplayer
20:34:51 <ais523> but apparently it's rather hard due to the way the code is structured
20:34:57 <ais523> (and lag could destroy it quite easily)
20:35:26 <ais523> there's already ways to set levels to work as networked multiplayer levels
20:35:29 <ais523> but no way to test the result
20:38:23 <ehird> so, you can do an enigma level totally in lua with a shitty xml description file right?
20:38:41 <ehird> is there a point-'n-click editor for laying out the basic structure?
20:39:22 <ais523> not if you want anything that produces anything more recent than the 0.83 level format
20:39:34 <ais523> on the other hand, the new Lua API is very good
20:39:44 <ehird> yes, but I have to memorise silly symbols for the basic layout :)
20:39:46 <ais523> even though the XML wrapper's a bit annoying
20:39:52 <ais523> and you don't memorise symbols
20:39:56 <ais523> you write your own list
20:39:56 <ehird> can you put the lua in a separate file?
20:40:07 <ehird> and I think that might be worse
20:40:23 <ais523> have a look at the source for a simple level, like my Three Times Through
20:40:32 <ais523> it's basically a list of tile definitions, followed by an ASCII art map of tiles
20:40:44 <ehird> "Garbage Collection? In a kernel module?
20:40:44 <ehird> As someone who spends an inordinate amount of time staring at a spinning clock on a blackberry because *its* code is all written in garbage-collected Java, no thanks."
20:40:58 <ehird> Because a mobile with Java is totally comparable with GHC on a desktop.
20:41:12 <ais523> GHC? in a kernel module?
20:41:18 <ehird> http://tommd.wordpress.com/2009/09/13/kernel-modules-in-haskell/
20:41:29 <ais523> oh, I thought you meant embedding the compiler
20:41:41 <ais523> kghc would be kind-of fun, after all
20:41:46 <ehird> (proof-of-concept of course; uses the House OS's ghc patch so it's ghc 6.8.2 which is years old; latest is 6.10.14)
20:41:52 <ais523> I've thought of making C-INTERCAL have a kernel module version just for the sheer ridiculousness
20:42:04 <ehird> ais523: I'd run that on my laptop. No joke.
20:42:07 <ais523> as in, you can compile INTERCAL in your kernel!
20:42:21 <ais523> if I do that, I'd make it output kernel modules
20:42:27 <ehird> I mean, yeah, sane Ubuntu and all, but I *am* silly and my OS should reflect that.
20:42:29 <ais523> although, it would have to use a userspace C compiler as part of it
20:43:08 <ehird> i'm so happy to be using metacity instead of compiz
20:43:25 <ais523> hmm... I kind-of like compiz
20:43:29 <ais523> on hardware where it works properly
20:43:35 <ehird> it looks snazzy at first
20:43:38 <ehird> but one, it's unstable
20:43:40 <ais523> and when it doesn't clash with software
20:43:42 <ehird> two, it places windows really terribly
20:43:44 <ehird> I mean, completely unusably
20:43:52 <ais523> oh, I normally have windows maximised
20:43:57 <ehird> three, that fading of windows and menus gets tiring when you realise it makes you wait longer
20:44:21 <ehird> ais523: it can either place windows in corners (retarded), center all of them (retarded), or cascade from the top-left regardless of the positions of existing windows (retarded)
20:44:28 <ehird> Metacity's is 1000x saner
20:44:44 <ais523> I use it for keyboard shorcuts
20:44:58 <ais523> like control-super-n to tell my music player to put up a notification about the name of the current track
20:45:08 <ais523> (I wrote that shortcut, it isn't a default)
20:45:17 <ehird> what's that got to do with compiz?
20:45:31 <ais523> it's compiz that implements the shortcut
20:45:43 <ehird> i'm sure you can do that without replacing your wm
20:46:17 <ehird> hmm... I wonder how I record loopback in Audacity on linux
20:46:23 <ehird> as in, record what's about to be sent to the speakers
20:48:23 <ehird> also, Audacity's about dialog ends with the button "OK... Audacious!"
20:48:26 <ehird> I can just imagine the developer there, going
20:48:33 <ehird> "how will people know audacity is something special? something different?"
20:48:40 <ehird> "we need to demonstrate that we're fun... and unconventional"
20:48:50 <ehird> set_label(okBtn, "OK... Audacious!");
20:49:31 <fizzie> My version doesn't have the exclamation point there.
20:50:08 <fizzie> Audacity also has a screenshot tool built-in.
20:50:26 <ehird> do you know what that means, someone came across that line
20:50:31 <ehird> added an exclamation point
20:50:41 <ehird> THIS IS THE PROBLEM WITH OPEN SOURCE SOFTWARE >_<
20:50:51 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Page closed").
20:50:53 <ehird> also, fucking hell
20:50:56 <ehird> it really does have a screenshot tool
20:51:30 <fizzie> There's a "Blue Bkgnd" button in the screenshot tool.
20:51:45 <ehird> indeed: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/audacity-screenshot-tool.png
20:51:59 <fizzie> Did you take that screenshot with the tool? :p
20:52:16 * ehird wonders what those black pixels in the top-right of that window are
20:52:16 <ehird> fizzie: no, GNOME's :P
20:52:24 <ehird> and told it to add the window shadow, because I was feeling fancy
20:52:31 <ehird> ah, I think the pixels around the edge are from the background; it's dropshadowing a rectangle
20:52:36 <ehird> whereas the window isn't rectangle
20:53:12 <fizzie> My GTK is uglier, ha-ha: http://zem.fi/~fis/audacap.png
20:53:53 <ehird> Mine's the default Ubuntu 9.10 theme; quite appealing,
20:54:07 <ehird> fizzie: Yours makes it look slightly more organised, though.
20:54:27 <pikhq> fizzie: That's not a bad theme. Just quite sparse.
20:54:45 <fizzie> I think the theme is something called "Mist". I played around with the GTK settings a bit, then mostly gave it up.
20:54:45 <ehird> Mine's rather easier to differentiate widgets, though.
20:54:50 <ehird> Also my font rendering is nicer. :P
20:55:18 <pikhq> It's far better than some of the truly sinful KDE themes.
20:55:32 <fizzie> It's got a bit unconventional-looking checkboxes; it just draws a smaller filled rectangle in the box, instead of an X.
21:03:39 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:08:21 <ehird> ais523: is there a good level to copy the file of for lua-heavy stuff?
21:08:33 <ais523> there are some template levels
21:08:48 <ais523> it's best to use a lua-light level and then add to it, I find
21:08:55 <ais523> as lua-heavy levels tend to be rather different in the heavy stuff
21:10:13 <ehird> right, but I don't actually know any of the lua
21:13:18 <ais523> the docs are pretty good
21:13:41 <ehird> I sort of have an allergy to manual-format docs
21:15:52 <ais523> it's actually Texinfo, I'm almost certain
21:16:05 <ehird> that was a joke right
21:16:49 <ehird> ais523: VIII#8 - I have a feeling from the starting message that the solution to this level is going to (a) make me groan (b) be terribly nerdy
21:17:16 <ais523> ehird: not a joke: it gives links Texinfo-style, and occasionally they mess it up and raw Texinfo gets into the docs
21:17:30 <ehird> I mean documents in the writing style of a manual.
21:17:41 <ehird> As opposed to, e.g. a series of tutorials (which I can tolerate if they're short).
21:17:56 <ais523> the docs are about writing levels, I'd expect them to be manually
21:18:03 <ehird> Mostly manuals read like a list of "here's stuff we couldn't fit in elegantly, so we'll try and sort of connect them together into one huge essay"
21:18:07 <ais523> especially as they describe the API, and the behaviour of every object in the game, etc
21:18:45 <ehird> API references, I can do. Tutorials, I can do. Examples dissected bit-by-bit, I can do. Pseudo-essays attempting to tie a bunch of dry prose about the facts, I can't do.
21:19:31 <ais523> it gets better later on
21:20:28 <ehird> I haven't read it; I was just defining what a manual is. :P
21:22:27 <ehird> ais523: VIII#43 aaaargh
21:22:57 <ehird> (wtf@coffee in a meditation level)
21:23:32 -!- impomatic has joined.
21:24:11 <ehird> unfortunaletly --VIII#70
21:24:37 <ais523> there are too many levels like that one, unfortunately
21:24:44 <ehird> illmind obviously wrote t his
21:24:53 <ehird> "hihi", bad grammar and spelling, ~foo~
21:24:59 <impomatic> Not much recent action on the BF Joust hill :-(
21:25:12 <ais523> ehird: Babylon? no, that was mecke, who has similar style
21:25:20 <ehird> I think we're running out of BF Joust ideas
21:25:32 <ehird> Idea: Enigma Joust.
21:25:40 <ais523> ugh, how would that work?
21:25:58 <FireFly> Would enigma map making be TC?
21:26:10 <ehird> It has Lua scripting
21:26:38 <ais523> I think it's TC even without, so long as something like a coin dispenser were implemetned
21:26:53 <ais523> you could use timings on coinslots as Minsky machine variables
21:29:17 <FireFly> That actually sounds like some interesting limitations
21:31:38 <ehird> so wait, enigma levels can be tc on their own?
21:32:23 <ais523> not quite, as it's hard to see how to get infinite storage
21:32:49 <ais523> coinslots would work by storing unbounded numbers in time (assuming the engine can handle unbounded times, which I suspect it can't)
21:33:02 <ehird> how does deathbridge change under hard?
21:33:15 <ais523> ehird: the glass is replaced by a solid deathstone, rather than vanishing
21:33:20 <ais523> so you can't shortcut by hitting it on the corner
21:33:56 <ais523> free extra life on easy
21:34:17 <ais523> on your starting square, so you basically just start with 3 of them rather than 2
21:34:20 <ehird> I've even forgotten how to survive past losing your lives...
21:34:56 * ehird wonders what... that one... is
21:35:22 <ehird> It has a floppy thing in it, and crumbling tiles
21:35:26 <ehird> and a black background
21:35:43 <ehird> crumble behind you tiles
21:35:45 <ehird> all crumbling tiles apart from, like, two safe spots
21:36:43 <ais523> the second screen's nasty, though
21:38:48 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
21:48:24 <ais523> write a quick shellscript using grep to scan for all levels containing both it_floppy and it_crack?
21:48:33 <ais523> (actually, make that [-_] as the items were renamed)
21:48:57 <ehird> IV#96 is really hard
21:49:41 <ais523> $ grep -rl 'it[-_]floppy' . | xargs grep -l 'it[-_]crack' | wc -l
21:49:53 <ehird> well, alright then
21:50:12 <ais523> 7 I know aren't there due to being in the wrong levelpacks
21:50:30 <ais523> I'll run the others through less
21:50:59 <ais523> is "No Jumping Necessary" in Enigma I the one you're thinking of/
21:51:04 <ais523> it was the first one, which is nice
21:51:49 <ehird> is it the one you were?
21:52:39 <ais523> "Rhapsody on Cracks" also fits your description, it seems (apart from the black background), but it isn't that one I was thinking of
21:52:50 <ehird> "Intel porting their Concurrent Collections library to Haskell"
21:52:59 <ehird> so is haskell still irrelevant?
21:54:56 <ais523> it will always be irrelevant, even when everyone in the world uses it
21:56:10 <ais523> I know I saw an interview with someone at Microsoft Research who said that Haskell was producing useful ideas for F#, which would eventually filter into C#
21:56:13 <ais523> I think he was missing the point
21:56:37 <ehird> no, he was advertising MS technologies.
21:56:57 <ehird> shit, am I really turning into a cynical foss zealot :)
21:57:00 <ais523> trying to force Haskell into anything else just seems wrong, though
21:57:13 <ais523> ehird: you can be cynical without being a floss zealot
21:57:20 <ais523> I'm happy to be cynical all the time
21:57:39 <ehird> anyway, C# does an impressive job of not seeming like a hodge-podge with its functional features, but the only haskelly thing it has is LINQ
21:57:44 <ais523> worse, I'm both cynical /and/ idealistic, which is almost but not quite a contradiction
21:57:49 <pikhq> Also, you can be cynical of Microsoft without being a zealot.
21:58:01 <pikhq> Microsoft has done much to justify cynicism.
21:58:07 <ehird> pI\Uffffffff pikhq --my IRC client
21:58:11 <ehird> except the \U displays as [X]
21:58:17 <ehird> when tabbing pi<TAB>
21:58:29 <ehird> pikhq: true, but Haskell comes out of Microsoft Research, practically
21:59:21 <ais523> I used to think Microsoft Research was funded by Microsoft to try to make them look good
21:59:26 <ais523> after all, big reward, low cost
21:59:30 <ais523> but I'm no longer sure
21:59:34 <pikhq> ehird: And Microsoft Research is quite different from the rest of Microsoft. "Do interesting things. Make it make our stuff better if you can." versus "PROFIT IS IMPERATIVE. COMPETITION DETECTED. EXTERMINATE!"
21:59:57 <ehird> I might work at Microsoft Research, but never Microsoft
22:00:08 <ehird> although MS research would probably force me to use windows
22:00:14 <ehird> You are given 1,000,000.00
22:00:21 <ehird> British 2009 Program
22:00:27 <ehird> show details 19:05 (2 hours ago)
22:00:31 <ehird> You are given 1,000,000.00 Pounds by the British Telecom Promotion, Provide
22:00:33 <ehird> your Name,Address,Occupation
22:00:35 <ehird> oops, sorry for the spam
22:00:37 <ehird> didn't look like that in gmail
22:00:41 <ehird> anyway, the above is an example of (a) beautiful minimalist expression, (b) lottery spam
22:00:43 <ehird> that's the whole email
22:00:49 <ehird> "You are given 1,000,000.00 Pounds by the British Telecom Promotion, Provide
22:00:49 <ehird> your Name,Address,Occupation"
22:01:02 <ehird> british telecom, in promoting with their 2009 program, have given you a million pounds.
22:01:14 <ais523> how are you meant to reply to it?
22:01:19 <ehird> to promote goodwill to their products, I guess.
22:01:19 <ais523> just to the email's reply address?
22:01:27 <ehird> it's from telecom58@9.cn
22:01:38 <ais523> 9.cn is a suspiciously short domain name
22:01:43 <ehird> it's hosted by Windows Live
22:01:49 <ehird> as a custom domain thing
22:03:34 <ehird> also, did you know that n@ai (or something) is a valid address? it's owned by an Ian, who is the tech guy for the NIC of that domain
22:04:05 <ehird> prolly cause i mentioned it before
22:05:01 <ais523> I bet that breaks loads of email validation regexen
22:05:19 <ehird> but how cool is it to administer a root TLD?
22:05:26 <ehird> you literally own the domain "ai"
22:05:57 <ehird> whoever mainly administrates the root domain should give themselves <letter>@.
22:06:05 <ehird> for short (like you wouldn't say google.com.), e@
22:06:22 <ehird> or make it a symbol
22:06:28 <ehird> the only totally symbolic email address
22:06:48 <ehird> ais523: is an empty email address valid?
22:06:55 <ehird> didn't we conclude it wasn't?
22:07:15 <ehird> well, anyway, your email would be @
22:07:18 <ais523> @ would be a great email address if valid
22:07:28 <ehird> From: Elliott Hird <@>
22:07:32 <ehird> Organization: ICANN
22:07:33 <ais523> is it even possible to give the route domain an MX?
22:07:56 <ehird> `dig .` outputs an SOA record and nothing else
22:08:00 <ehird> and I'm not sure what SOA is
22:08:05 <ehird> but, considering that it gives \
22:08:12 <ehird> s/gives \\$/gives/
22:08:13 <ehird> .1447INSOAA.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. NSTLD.VERISIGN-GRS.COM. 2009092900 1800 900 604800 86400
22:08:18 <ehird> they can almost certainly add things to it
22:08:55 <fizzie> SOA is "start-of-authority", but I don't see why you couldn't put other records there too.
22:09:24 <ehird> hmm... if . is a separator, then surely . cannot be the absolute root domain
22:09:28 <Ilari> With -t any it also gives 13 NS records.
22:09:28 <ehird> after all, it's empty . empty
22:09:36 <ehird> so what'st he empty after it? :D
22:11:03 <fizzie> Right, obviously it has the name server records.
22:11:24 <ais523> also: http:// should be a valid website
22:11:30 <ais523> actually, better in gopher
22:11:35 <fizzie> And "foo" generally stands for "foo.".
22:11:35 <ehird> dig: '' is not a legal name (unexpected end of input)
22:12:41 <ehird> fizzie: That's what I meant.
22:12:54 <ehird> . is a separator, right?
22:13:01 <ehird> So the components of foo. are ["foo",""]
22:13:11 <ehird> In conclusion: . isn't the absolute root domain; it's ["",""].
22:13:56 <ehird> ais523: the massive politics surrounding adding an MX record to the root domain for personal use would be ridiculously huge, and you want to put an A record in there?!
22:14:06 <ehird> or AAAA, or CNAME, whatever
22:14:20 <ais523> ehird: it would be funny if it looked like one of those Windows help-on-first-run screens
22:14:23 <ais523> "Welcome to the Internet!"
22:14:35 <Ilari> The thing after @ is either dot-atom or domain-literal. dot-atom expands to dot-atom-text. dot-atom-text expands to atext+ ('.' atext+). To get one character, one is left with atext and that can't expand to '.'. So dot-atom can't expand to '.'. This leaves domain-literal, but those are enclosed in '[]'. The stuff in middle is dcontent. Dcontent -> dtext and dtext includes '.'
22:14:56 <Ilari> So, it would need to be in form '<localpart>@[.]'
22:15:18 <ehird> ais523: or, since it's at the end of every domain, one of those "you have reached the end of the internet" pages
22:15:29 <ais523> it would be more like the start
22:16:52 <fizzie> No, I mean "blah.com" is actually written "blah.com." in DNS messages and zone files and so on, so the . is a bit of a not-really-just-a-label-separator there too.
22:16:52 <ehird> ais523: but it's at the end of every domain!
22:17:45 <ehird> still, @[.] is a pretty awesome email
22:17:48 <Ilari> Hmm... Is 'foo@example.net' the same as 'foo@[example.net]'?
22:19:11 <fizzie> It does not take into account MX records.
22:19:24 -!- impomatic has left (?).
22:19:25 <fizzie> "In the domain-literal form, the domain is interpreted as the literal Internet address of the particular host."
22:19:27 <ais523> what does it do instead?
22:19:38 <ehird> so you can't have an email in the root domain
22:19:53 <fizzie> So sending to foo@[example.net] will not look for example.net's mail servers; it'll look for any A records for example.net, and send mail there.
22:20:28 <ehird> if you gave . an A record
22:20:28 <Ilari> The ways domain mail receive capability can appear in DNS records: 1) MX record. 2) SRV record on SMTP 3) A record. 4) AAAA record.
22:20:31 <ehird> you could have @[.]
22:21:21 <ais523> ok, /this/ is why we need an A record for the root domain
22:22:00 <ehird> are you sure that's a good reason :D
22:22:04 -!- ehird has left (?).
22:22:05 -!- ehird has joined.
22:22:11 <ehird> actually, it's a bad reason, which is the reason why it's a good idea
22:23:32 <Ilari> Heh. ac. has freaking A record!
22:24:19 <ehird> http://ac./ is different though, huh
22:24:32 <ais523> my browser goes to ac.com from that, which is parked
22:24:54 <Ilari> Except that root servers don't report it... Hmm...
22:25:16 <fizzie> It also has a legal disclaimer TXT record.
22:25:21 <fizzie> ac descriptive text "The AC zone file is protected under national and international law as a database compilation."
22:25:21 <fizzie> ac descriptive text "Access to the .AC Zone File information does not in itself convey any rights to any party to use, store, manipulate, such information without the explicit written consent of ICB plc, P.O.Box 4040 Christchurch, BH23 1XW, UK."
22:25:25 <Ilari> But their authoritative NS does.
22:25:34 <ehird> we can't store the results?
22:25:44 <fizzie> Well, why should the root servers know anything else then NS records for 'ac'?
22:25:45 <ais523> they should have added "cache"
22:26:07 <fizzie> It's not like .com nameservers would know what's the A record for example.com either.
22:26:38 <Ilari> af. has A record as well. ai. has MX and A!
22:26:39 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
22:26:40 <ais523> who owns example.com, btw?
22:26:47 <ais523> presumably someone's responsible for maintaining it
22:27:36 <fizzie> Domain Name: EXAMPLE.COM
22:27:36 <fizzie> Registrar: RESERVED-INTERNET ASSIGNED NUMBERS AUTHORITY
22:27:57 <ehird> IANA IIRC OTOH IANAL BTW YHBT YHL HAND
22:28:40 <ais523> it would be great if IANA stood for "I am not a"
22:28:42 <Ilari> Yup, AI. NS reports the MX record too...
22:28:42 <fizzie> Example.com will expire in 13-aug-2011; would be nice if they'd manage not to renew it. (But unlikely, since it's listed like so that they are the registrar, not just a regular owner.)
22:29:06 <fizzie> as. also has an MX record.
22:29:30 <ais523> best of all would be if the root domain got parked
22:29:37 <ais523> but surely people will remember to renew that?
22:29:43 <Ilari> Apparently E-Mail addresses directly under TLDs are not just urban legends....
22:29:56 <fizzie> And tm. has an A record too.
22:31:36 <ehird> ais523: you can't exactly register . :P
22:31:38 <ehird> Ilari: I told you that
22:31:43 <ehird> n@ai or i@an or similar
22:32:12 <fizzie> There's a web server in the "tm." address, but I can't get my Firefox to go there, it just goes to www.tm.com even if I type the full "http://tm/".
22:32:18 <ais523> ehird: what's the chance at least one registrar will give you the chance to monitor . so as to be notified when its registration expires?
22:34:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
22:36:10 -!- ais523 has joined.
22:36:11 <Ilari> fizzie: At least links2 could work (http://example complains about host not found).
22:40:21 <Ilari> If its one of those two, it must be n@ai since an. isn't mail-capable.
22:44:07 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:47:06 <ehird> Ilari: yeah, I think it was n@ai
22:49:19 <ehird> "Wait, so person A always lies on opposite day if person B, who always not tells the untruth, reveals a goat behind door 2 and person A says they will unswitch the complex conjugate of their answer because person C always tells a clown joke when person A tells the opposite of the unlie, right?"
22:49:28 <oerjan> but what i want to know is, was it a _friendly_ n@ai?
22:49:48 <ais523> ehird: sounds like an esolang
22:51:23 <oerjan> obviously, it was their mother
22:54:10 <oerjan> the doctor, unless there was an untruth i missed
22:56:07 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
22:56:17 <ehird> "but what i want to know is, was it a _friendly_ n@ai?" is what i mean
22:57:03 <FireFly> Ask oerjan that in -60 seconds from now
22:57:23 <ais523> nah, just retroactively edit one of your previous posts
22:57:39 <ehird> ais523: why do you keep referencing internet forums, it makes me sad because they all suck
22:58:29 <ais523> I mean, which one do I reference
22:58:55 <ehird> like editing posts, topic locking, etc :P
22:59:34 <FireFly> Nothing's wrong with that kind of humour
22:59:45 <FireFly> I like the forums discussion, though
22:59:59 <ais523> ehird: because IRC has a sufficient lack of equivalents that I had to use a slightly warped analogy
23:00:23 <ehird> i know, but it's upsetting because editing posts is the worst thing ever dreamt of :P
23:00:28 <ais523> I suppose the IRC equivalent to stickying would be setting a join message in ChanServ, or changing the topic
23:00:35 <ais523> and it depends on the forum
23:00:46 <FireFly> Well, the topic is already always on the top
23:00:48 <ais523> over on mag-heut it works pretty well, but that's because of the way mag-heut works
23:00:54 <FireFly> So I guess unstickying would be harder
23:01:02 <ehird> conversation is linear, reading is linear, it's so easily abused, and it encourages not thinking before you post
23:01:27 <ehird> besides, unless it's correcting a typo, it'll inevitably lead to confusion with regards to the following posts; and does that typo REALLY matter so much?
23:03:37 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:10:27 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:26:53 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:42:18 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").