00:01:05 <FireFly> Yup, saw that one a few days ago while looking to see if there already exists any BF interpreter written in Python
00:01:37 <FireFly> I made one which works sans I/O (well, output simply prints all of memory atm)
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02:01:40 <ludamad> !bfjoust Foolz (>-)*8(>[-])*20
02:01:56 <EgoBot> Score for ludamad_Foolz: 14.7
02:03:27 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
02:03:36 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for brainfuck!
02:03:43 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ . Cheers and patches (preferably hg bundles) can be sent to Richards@codu.org , PayPal donations can be sent to AKAQuinn@hotmail.com , complaints can be sent to /dev/null
02:03:56 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
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04:48:08 <Gregor> Hey guys have some sheet music kthx http://codu.org/music/GRegor-op11.pdf
04:55:30 * Gregor is pretty proud of this insane mess.
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06:23:55 <coppro> Gregor: is this your random music maker?
06:24:28 <Gregor> Yes. The one in my head. Which is not particularly random.
06:25:01 <Gregor> I could, but I refuse to :P
06:25:04 <Gregor> You can have a .ogg if you'd like.
06:25:27 <Gregor> http://codu.org/music/GRegor-op11.ogg
06:25:30 * coppro can tell that would take too long for him to work out on a piano and, what's more, he lacks a piano
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06:27:50 <AnMaster> coppro, what then are you typing on?
06:32:46 <Gregor> coppro: So you hypothetically play the piano, minus the whole having one thing?
06:33:05 <Gregor> Seems like everyone "used to" play something.
06:33:32 <coppro> very nice piece, though
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06:34:20 <coppro> (also, it would have been beyond my ability to play back when I did have a piano)
06:35:43 <coppro> I especially like the 12/8 parts
06:36:20 <Gregor> Everybody who I send it to has a different preferred part. This is probably a good thing.
06:38:14 <coppro> just one question - is the 9♪ notation common?
06:38:43 * pikhq suggests that Gregor perform his 11th opus
06:38:56 <Gregor> pikhq: http://codu.org/music/GRegor-op11.ogg
06:38:58 <pikhq> Oh, there's the ogg.
06:40:18 * coppro downloads the rest of them too :)
06:40:21 * pikhq follows along on the sheet music
06:40:27 <Gregor> coppro: I would advise that you do not :P
06:41:34 <pikhq> Gregor has a very low opinion of himself.
06:42:00 <pikhq> The 5th through 8th opuses are wonderful, as is the 10th.
06:42:08 <pikhq> The 9th I've not heard performed well enough to say.
06:42:26 <Gregor> In my head it's quite nice :(
06:42:34 <coppro> yeah, the synth takes something away form it
06:43:16 <Gregor> As it turns out, relatively anonymous computer scientists have a hard time getting quartets to play his pieces :P
06:43:44 <coppro> Surely you can find a better synth
06:44:18 <Gregor> I'd rather find better humans ^^
06:44:30 <coppro> it's not bad enough to be truly spooky, and not good enough to be good :D
06:45:44 <coppro> Gregor: what program do you use?
06:46:05 <Gregor> (And, by proxy, lilypond)
06:46:26 <coppro> any chance I could get the file for 11? I might want to split it into bits
06:46:39 <Gregor> It's linked on http://codu.org/music.php
06:47:45 <Gregor> It's more than a bit wonko though, as I created it with notation in mind.
06:48:02 <Gregor> e.g. it has extra tracks for combining multiple parts in one staff.
06:48:31 <coppro> well, it's just that it would make great atmosphere music, just not the whole thing at once
06:48:54 <coppro> 10 is not terrible; it feels a bit random so far though
06:49:12 <Gregor> MIDIfied it's pretty awful. Could be better, but again, I made it for notation, not MIDI.
06:49:36 <coppro> the banging bits are pretty bad in MIDI; probably sound better with real music
06:50:23 <Gregor> "banging bits" refers specifically to?
06:51:10 <coppro> the quick repetitive chords near the start
06:51:23 <coppro> (that's where the comment about random came from)
06:51:45 <coppro> I like the rest so far
06:51:56 <Gregor> Upon further listening, I really ought to have just cut off the beginning X-D
06:52:28 <coppro> other than that, I prefer 10 to 9
06:54:51 <coppro> the second repetitive bit is much better.
06:55:03 <coppro> (ignore the connotation on repetitive)
06:56:34 <Gregor> Well, anyway, op. 11 is better than op. 10 :P
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06:58:01 <coppro> agree with you there :)
07:01:09 <coppro> You definitely have some compositional talent :)
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07:02:38 <Gregor> My brain, seeing that P* just joined, miscompleted it into pikhq, and I went "wait, he's already here..."
07:02:57 <Gregor> Took my an embarrassing amount of time to realize that the person who had just joined is, in fact, Pthing, and not pikhq at all.
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07:03:11 <Gregor> Mayhaps this is because it's 2AM, and I ought to be asleep.
07:03:46 <Rugxulo> just curious, anybody here program in ETA before?
07:04:33 <coppro> Rugxulo: yes. I'm very familiar with writing programs with an ETA of 100000 years+ :P
07:04:53 <oerjan> i try not to program in terrorist organizations, personally
07:05:27 <Rugxulo> ETA as in the "ETANOSHI" ("Fungal toe!") variety
07:10:21 <oerjan> programming befunge with your feet is not strictly recommended. i guess it's on topic though.
07:11:27 <Rugxulo> although there's an interpreter ;-)
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07:27:18 <pikhq> Gregor: Sleep is highly, highly overrated.
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09:59:22 <ais523> great quote from fungot
09:59:22 <fungot> ais523: from where does the hero alone have the power. " m, madam...! i am, are you?! c'mon!!
10:01:12 <ais523> also, looks like I got the first post today
10:01:18 * ais523 is glad that IRC doesn't really work like forums
10:05:01 <ais523> wow, there was a jouster in here yesterday
10:05:04 <ais523> BF Joust needs more love...
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13:37:16 <ais523> hmm... you can learn a lot from flamewars
13:37:26 <ais523> Slashdot is currently in a celsius vs. farenheit flamewar
13:37:40 <ais523> and apparently 0 degrees F has a meaning, which I didn't realise
13:37:47 <ais523> and 100 degrees F was meant to but they messed up
13:40:26 <ais523> <marcosdumay> Kelvin is the standard. That and ed.
13:40:44 <ais523> come to think of it, that's almost exactly the same argument in the two respective flamewars
13:52:41 <Deewiant> I thought it was just the three 0/32/96 points
13:52:53 <ais523> Deewiant: well, the 96 was meant to be 100
13:53:42 <Deewiant> Wikipedia doesn't say so, for what little that's worth
13:54:10 <Deewiant> Just says he originally measured as 96 and this has since been corrected to 98.6
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14:26:49 <ais523> 8x42 is a great resolution
14:27:17 <Gregor> Is that what you've got X at right now?
14:28:19 <ais523> no, it's something ehird used in a hyperbole a few days ago
14:28:44 <ais523> also, when ehird gets online, I'll have to tell him that control-shift-alt-5 does regex replace in Emacs
14:28:54 <ais523> it's a lot shorter to type than the M-x version
14:31:21 <fizzie> And "C-M-%" is a lot shorter to type than "control-shift-alt-5", in addition to working even when your % does not happen to be shift-5.
14:32:20 <ais523> and when your meta happens not to be alt
14:32:38 <ais523> I was more trying to point out what a ridiculous and unintuitive shortcut it was
14:32:45 <ais523> most of Emacs' shortcuts actually make sense, that one doesn't
14:34:23 <ais523> wow, and "vendekabibyte" /still/ has no Google results
14:34:34 <ais523> they need to do a recrawl of the Tunes logs, obviously
14:36:07 <fizzie> It "makes sense" in the sense that it's an extension of the M-% query-replace, but that one doesn't really work for me. I guess you could invent some sort of vague justification on the % glyph, though; something like it being a stylized form of "x/y", standing for "replace x with y".
14:39:33 <AnMaster> (and everyone else too I guess)
14:40:07 <AnMaster> <ais523> also, looks like I got the first post today <-- huh? "08:27:18 <pikhq> Gregor: Sleep is highly, highly overrated."
14:40:19 <ais523> AnMaster: in tunes-log time
14:40:31 <AnMaster> oh. no idea what timezone it may use
14:40:42 <AnMaster> I assumed utc, due to that being the standard in computing
14:40:49 <ais523> it uses one of the US timezones, I think
14:41:37 <AnMaster> <ais523> and apparently 0 degrees F has a meaning, which I didn't realise <-- what meaning?
14:41:49 <ais523> AnMaster: freezing point of saturated saltwater
14:41:57 <ais523> apparently it was set there to make it easy to calibrate thermometers
14:42:13 <ais523> as with the level of technology Farenheit had, saturated saltwater was much easier to come by than distilled water
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15:03:02 <AnMaster> <ais523> and 100 degrees F was meant to but they messed up <-- what is 96 for F then?
15:03:56 <ais523> AnMaster: human body temperature
15:03:56 <ais523> which is an awful thing to base a temperature scale on, as it isn't particularly constant
15:04:16 <AnMaster> <ais523> I was more trying to point out what a ridiculous and unintuitive shortcut it was <-- not really. C-M-% doesn't seem so silly?
15:04:32 <ais523> AnMaster: holding down /three/ modifier keys, then pressing a digit?
15:04:46 <ais523> AnMaster: what other program uses that sort of shortcut?
15:05:20 <AnMaster> ais523, hm. iirc Visual Studio used stuff like C-<something>, release, press another key
15:06:05 <AnMaster> to me those are both equally weird
15:06:06 <ais523> those are less bad, I think
15:06:26 <ais523> you can hold control with the little finger of the left hand and press x and c in a row with the second and third
15:06:33 <ais523> making it an amazingly fast shortcut to type
15:06:38 <ais523> C-M-% needs both hands...
15:06:57 <AnMaster> ais523, it doesn't. However it is rather uncomfortable to use only one hand
15:07:29 <AnMaster> thumb on alt. index finger on 5, little finger on ctrl, finger next to little finger on shift
15:07:54 <AnMaster> otherwise alt and 5 on the left hand and ctrl and shift on the right hand
15:08:14 <AnMaster> (due to there being no alt on the right side, only altgr, which is quite different)
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15:20:59 <oerjan> `calc 98.6 fahrenheit in celcius
15:21:01 <HackEgo> Example: convert 98.6o Fahrenheit to Celsius. 98.6 - 32 = 66.6 66.6 * 5/9 = 333/ 9 = 37o C. There is a mental math method to approximate the Fahrenheit to ...
15:21:48 <oerjan> `calc 98.6 fahrenheit in celsius
15:21:48 <HackEgo> 98.6 degrees Fahrenheit = 37 degrees Celsius
15:24:11 <oerjan> <ais523> they need to do a recrawl of the Tunes logs, obviously
15:24:29 <oerjan> i had the impression google doesn't crawl the logs reliably at all
15:25:01 <oerjan> at least i don't find things when searching for them, although some pages are there
15:26:46 <AnMaster> <oerjan> at least i don't find things when searching for them, although some pages are there <-- that is why you instead use grep locally
15:27:17 <oerjan> that would require me to download the logs, though
15:27:40 <AnMaster> plus that lets you search for who said something, quite useful if you know who you were discussing it with but nowhere near when
15:32:40 <oerjan> <AnMaster> I assumed utc, due to that being the standard in computing <-- duh, that would have been far too convenient and rememberable
15:36:34 <FireFly> Afaik the logs uses some Americanish time format?
15:38:08 <oerjan> probably host local time
15:38:39 <FireFly> [16:06:32] <ais523> making it an amazingly fast shortcut to type
15:38:44 <FireFly> What about us poor dvorakians? :<
15:38:56 <ais523> they can remap all their Emacs shortcuts to the same relative places on the keyboards
15:39:03 <ais523> (someone probably was mad enough to do that...)
15:41:00 <AnMaster> well that is true, C-x C-c is fast
15:41:13 <AnMaster> <ais523> (someone probably was mad enough to do that...) <-- pretty sure yes
15:41:29 * ais523 is reading up on the recent Reddit worm
15:41:52 <AnMaster> something like redefining the keys, rather than remapping each individual key. then redefining self insert to insert the key that actually is on the key
15:42:16 <AnMaster> because that way even those in various modes and such were properly remapped
15:43:05 <ais523> yes, that would make sense
15:43:13 <ais523> also, I love the concept of redefining self-insert-command
15:43:25 <ais523> it's sort of, the command that makes Emacs an editor rather than an OS
15:43:54 <oerjan> there's a reddit worm? O_O
15:45:30 <ais523> basically there was an exploit in the parser that let people post arbitrary JS on link mouseover
15:45:46 <ais523> and the JS spammed instances of comments containing such links all over the thread
15:45:49 <ais523> also into people's inboxes
15:46:03 <ais523> so after a while, there were loads of links full of hex all over Reddit
15:47:10 <ais523> kind-of interesting, actually, as you have to write a quine to do that correctly
15:52:44 <ais523> they should have made it so it advanced 1 step in a calculation every time it spread
15:52:53 <ais523> so you could use Reddit worms to do parallel computing via people's browsers
15:52:53 <AnMaster> ais523, how long ago was that?
15:53:06 <ais523> AnMaster: yesterday, apparently
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16:22:00 <AnMaster> /usr/games/bin/gvba: Symbol `_ZTIN3Gtk6WidgetE' has different size in shared object, consider re-linking
16:22:19 <ais523> I haven't seen that error before either
16:22:47 <AnMaster> which is why a source based distro is so much better, relinking is trivial, while on ubuntu it would be a more complex process.
16:23:02 <AnMaster> (of course, since ubuntu isn't rolling release it is less likely to happen)
16:24:17 <AnMaster> it fails in this way after that first message:
16:24:19 <AnMaster> (gvba:2272): glibmm-CRITICAL **: Glib::Interface::Interface(const Glib::Interface_Class&): assertion `gobject_ != 0' failed
16:24:19 <AnMaster> (gvba:2272): glibmm-CRITICAL **: Glib::Interface::Interface(const Glib::Interface_Class&): assertion `gobject_ != 0' failed
16:24:34 <AnMaster> well it was compiled in 2007 says eix
16:33:30 <AnMaster> ais523, what do you think about this:
16:33:33 <AnMaster> Homepage: http://www.tei-c.org.uk/Software/passivetex/
16:33:33 <AnMaster> Description: A namespace-aware XML parser written in Tex
16:33:47 <ais523> I don't have any opinion; should I have one?
16:33:55 <ais523> ah, just read the description
16:34:00 <AnMaster> ais523, that no one sane would write an xml parser *in* TeX
16:34:08 <ais523> well, it's TC, isn't it?
16:34:20 <oerjan> so then, which one of you made it?
16:34:37 <AnMaster> ais523, yes, and it even has console IO iirc
16:38:11 <ais523> oerjan: someone submitted an entry in TeX at the 2008 IOCCC contest
16:38:23 <ais523> which considering it was a real-time routing task, was quite impressive
16:40:21 <FireFly> Meh, if it's TC it's doable :D
16:40:45 <FireFly> Then surely someone must've done BF in TeX
16:41:22 <oerjan> ais523: um don't those have to be in C?
16:41:39 <ais523> why? there were lots of entries in other langs
16:41:47 <ais523> mine was in C because it looked like the best lang for the job
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16:42:19 <oerjan> are you sure this is IO_C_CC ?
16:43:16 <oerjan> although with a TeX entry it sounds like someone else was confused...
16:58:21 <ais523> even more fun, it won the judges' prize
17:16:18 <ais523> <zzo38> Well, one thing works, when I search "internet protocol", manually type in the names of the protocols, and add a "port number" column, it gives the correct answers. But "color" for HTTP gives a URL, and "Command" for "HTTP" is "yes"
17:16:25 <ais523> now I want a version of yes that works over the web
17:16:58 <ais523> <Sgeo_> Should I learn emacs, or vi? <--- ouch DO NOT ASK THAT QUESTION ANYWHERE
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18:09:58 <AnMaster> <ais523> <Sgeo_> Should I learn emacs, or vi? <--- ouch DO NOT ASK THAT QUESTION ANYWHERE <-- why not? The answer is obviously emacs anyway.
18:10:20 <ais523> AnMaster: flamewars are bad
18:10:37 <ais523> and it's one of the easiest ways to incite a flamewar in channels with a high percentage of Unixy people
18:10:50 <ais523> I suppose you might get away with it on support.microsoft.com or somewhere highly Windows-centric like that
18:10:56 <ais523> but even then, you'd get a bit of one I suspect
18:11:58 <fizzie> Gah, I hate the karma thing; I mentioned offhand yesterday in a conversation that's this new three-monitor setup is nice; today the biggest and newest monitor (the 24" 1920x1200 one) of the three went and completely died.
18:12:00 <AnMaster> ais523, on support.microsoft.com you should ask about notepad vs. wordpad I guess
18:12:19 <ais523> fizzie: is it under warranty?
18:12:30 <ais523> AnMaster: just no, they're both awful
18:12:46 <ais523> besides, they'll recommend Visual Studio
18:13:05 <ais523> which is apparently decent for Windows development, even though I've known it to take over 10 minutes to load
18:13:13 <AnMaster> ais523, anything you *could* make a flameward about on support.microsoft.com (is that a forum or something?)
18:13:23 <AnMaster> ais523, 10 minutes? what sort of computer
18:13:25 <ais523> I think it has a forum, although it isn't a forum itself
18:13:28 <fizzie> As far as I can figure out, it should be; bought April 2008, and should be three years. Though I'm not quite sure what they'll do since the actual model is discontinued, and the newer ones seem very focused on the 16:9 1080-line things.
18:13:33 <ais523> and quite a powerful one, it was doing stuff over the network though
18:13:38 <fizzie> Anyway, ais's warranty question was here before AnMaster's.
18:14:09 <fizzie> (Okay, so it's not completely dead: the USB hub still works. It's just that a two-port USB hub the shape of a 24" TFT is still not especially useful.)
18:14:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, two second difference here :/
18:14:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, won't they have to replace it with a comparable product?
18:14:46 <AnMaster> and any screen is better than a dead one
18:15:12 <fizzie> I guess they will, but their view might be that a new 1920x1080 screen is "comparable" to a 1920x1200 one. But it doesn't work in this multihead setup as well.
18:15:55 <fizzie> Well, we'll see. Oh, and the chain has closed their nearby stores, too.
18:16:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, well you will have to tell them that you need same hight due to using it in a "professional work-critical multi display setup" or something
18:17:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, you get the basic idea anyway, refine it as required
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20:43:19 <AnMaster> does backspace after ∉ change it into a ∈ for you?
20:43:32 <AnMaster> any idea why? because selecting with arrow selects the whole thing
20:43:53 <fizzie> Yes, it does; and it's probably made out of a composed character.
20:44:16 <fizzie> You know, ∈ and the compositing /. Those work a bit confusingly sometimes, w.r.t. selection and backspace.
20:44:45 <fizzie> Not composing. Although I guess you could say it like that too.
20:45:15 <fizzie> That's a custom character; there's not really a / that'd apply to a part of the character.
20:45:59 <fizzie> Actually, I don't really know. If I copy the U+2209 not-an-element-of, ∉, directly, the backspace still removes the slash from it.
20:46:13 <fizzie> I guess something's doing some normalization somewhere, but I'm not quite sure who's responsible.
20:46:38 <coppro> Unicode characters are working badly on this computer
20:47:04 <coppro> every line with a Unicode character has something like 4x the line height
20:47:17 <fizzie> The same thing happens with "does not divide" and "not parallel to" characters; ∤ and ∦. For those backspace here also removes the slash, even though those really aren't made out of the combining slash.
20:48:06 <coppro> fizzie: I don't experience any of that normalization behavior in CZ, but I have noticed that with combining characters in the past
20:48:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about the curly i for imaginary unit
20:49:01 <fizzie> Those all do have a "canonical decomposition" entry in the Unicode database (for the base character + combining long solidus overlay), so if you were to apply that decomposition you'd get that sort of backspace behaviour. Still, it's a bit strange.
20:49:25 <fizzie> I should probably look at the raw log and see if it sends out the decomposited form to IRC, or just the character itself.
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20:50:05 <fizzie> I'm not sure what sort of curly imaginary unit there is; do you mean ℑ, which is often used to mean "take the imaginary part of something"?
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20:54:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, I mean like the i but rendered as in http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/7/9/d/79d8d2ba30e45d4a35d3f6c1fed419ba.png
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20:56:16 <fizzie> Yes, I don't think there's a special symbol; they couldn't really start providing italic forms for everything. The "letterlike symbols" contains generally things that are more... symbol-like.
20:57:06 <fizzie> Admittedly there's ℹ but that's the "information source" symbol, meant to be used with the combining enclosing circle: ℹ⃝
20:57:45 <ehird> that's just a small serifed i for me.
20:57:50 <ehird> not really italic at all...
20:58:10 <fizzie> But seems I was wrong: there's a whole "mathematical alphanumeric symbols" block.
20:58:14 <fizzie> It's outside BMP, but it's there.
20:58:29 <fizzie> So you can use the U+1d456 mathematic italic small i: 𝑖
20:59:47 <fizzie> There's bold, italic, bold italic, script, "bold fraktur", sans-serif, sans-serif bold, sans-serif italic, sans-serif bold italic and monospace variants of all of [A-Za-z].
21:00:34 <ehird> that's totally bad-ass.
21:00:38 <fizzie> Er, and also for [Α-Ωα-ω0-9].
21:00:40 <ehird> I'm naming my kid that
21:00:57 <fizzie> You're going to be a father?! Congratulations!
21:01:21 <ehird> a father of a bold fraktur... IN YOUR SKULL
21:01:51 <coppro> those Greek letters didn't screw with the line spacing
21:01:59 <ehird> nor did your mother.
21:02:22 <coppro> you know, those are neither funny nor good insults
21:02:23 <fizzie> 𝔗𝔥𝔢𝔰𝔢 𝔞𝔯𝔢 𝔱𝔥𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔩𝔡 𝔣𝔯𝔞𝔨𝔱𝔲𝔯 𝔰𝔶𝔪𝔟𝔬𝔩𝔰. (If your font has them.)
21:02:43 <coppro> so if I spin them around they read the same?
21:02:46 <ehird> that looks awesome fizzie
21:03:10 <ehird> i'm going to type in that
21:03:21 <fizzie> It certainly looks very 𝔞𝔲𝔱𝔥𝔬𝔯𝔦𝔱𝔞𝔱𝔦𝔳𝔢.
21:03:22 <Deewiant> Please don't; I lack the fonts
21:03:45 <ehird> Deewiant: it looks *awesome*
21:03:50 <ehird> fizzie: codepoints?
21:04:01 <fizzie> ehird: U+1d51e onwards.
21:04:15 <Asztal> Here it adds a lot of vertical padding to the line.
21:04:16 <Deewiant> Rather, it I lack the monospaced fonts
21:04:24 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, they renamed the Software Store to Software Center
21:05:44 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Admittedly there's ℹ but that's the "information source" symbol, meant to be used with the combining enclosing circle: ℹ⃝ <-- no circle here
21:05:50 <coppro> Is there a better Windows X server than Xming, out of curiosity?
21:05:52 <fizzie> Deewiant: Looks like this in XChat to me, though that's really pretty small: http://zem.fi/~fis/florb.png
21:06:23 <Deewiant> Your XChat falls back to non-monospaced fonts, I see
21:06:31 <ehird> coppro: nope, why?
21:06:36 <ehird> coppro: using colinux?
21:06:47 <Deewiant> Looks quite similar for me in firefox
21:06:57 <coppro> not colinux, just a regular VM
21:07:07 <ehird> you should try colinux, it looks cool.
21:07:14 <ehird> Xming is the best, though
21:07:17 <ehird> What's wrong with it?
21:07:30 <coppro> nothing, just wondering if I was running a suboptimal variant
21:07:44 <fizzie> I haven't tried the new versions of anything, but Xming used to beat WinaXe, at least.
21:08:06 <coppro> running an X server on Windows >>>>> using a DE in the VM
21:08:30 <coppro> this alone is why X beats native windowing technologies
21:09:35 <fizzie> Cygwin's X server was popular among the 3D graphics course people, since it correctly did stencil-buffer in remote-opengl. (The official "has to run on this" platform was FreeBSD, and all the Windows users wanted to test their homework remotely.)
21:09:44 <AnMaster> <fizzie> 𝔗𝔥𝔢𝔰𝔢 𝔞𝔯𝔢 𝔱𝔥𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔩𝔡 𝔣𝔯𝔞𝔨𝔱𝔲𝔯 𝔰𝔶𝔪𝔟𝔬𝔩𝔰. (If your font has them.) <-- ARGH dejavu doesn't!
21:10:00 <fizzie> I don't really know where my xchat picks those up.
21:10:12 <coppro> Or you have a client that correctly falls back to fonts with symbols when they aren't available in the current one
21:10:13 <fizzie> Could even be the Mathematica fonts.
21:10:13 <ehird> My font appears identical to fizzie's.
21:10:20 <ehird> I don't have Mathematica.
21:10:22 <coppro> I have them here on Windows
21:10:35 <fizzie> I don't have Mathematica either, I just have the ttf-mathematica package.
21:10:52 <ehird> I don't think I do.
21:11:10 <coppro> and while I haven't been the only person to install software on it, I can't imagine anyone installed anything with a fraktur font
21:12:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, I checked all installed fonts, none have them
21:12:34 <AnMaster> not even fonts I got from an OS X computer
21:13:10 <AnMaster> <fizzie> I don't have Mathematica either, I just have the ttf-mathematica package. <-- is that in ubuntu?
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21:13:54 <ehird> AnMaster: Stock Ubuntu install has it.
21:13:59 <ehird> Or, well, maybe not.
21:14:01 <Asztal> http://imgur.com/XV6EK.png <- firefox does this too.
21:14:02 <ehird> Install ttf-liberation.
21:14:14 <ehird> Or liberation-ttf, rather.
21:14:27 <coppro> Asztal: yeah, that's what I'm seeing. It's weird
21:14:32 <ehird> AnMaster: sudo apt-get install ttf-liberation
21:14:36 <ehird> sudo apt-get install ttf-droid
21:14:38 <ehird> but it's probably liberation
21:14:40 <coppro> I think it's to do with the font being used, not the symbols
21:14:54 <ehird> Come to think of it, it's probably Liberation
21:14:56 <coppro> since the symbols that TNR displays correctly are not causing that to happen
21:15:14 <ehird> it's quite full and type-like, which is more of a Liberation feature than DejaVu
21:15:14 <coppro> Unifont should expand onto the other planes
21:15:17 <AnMaster> ehird, apt-get claims already installed
21:15:29 <ehird> anyone know how to list all installed packages?
21:15:33 <ehird> I'll grep ttf- to see which I have
21:15:40 <fizzie> The Mathematica fonts are non-free, I would say.
21:16:02 <coppro> ehird: dpkg --get-selections | grep installed
21:16:20 <fizzie> Heh, I've just been using "dpkg-query -l | grep ^i".
21:16:37 <ehird> I'll go with dpkg0query
21:16:44 <coppro> get-selections can filter by pattern too
21:16:45 <ehird> AnMaster: do you have ttf-mscorefonts-installer?
21:16:52 <ehird> if coppro has them on Windows, then...
21:17:15 <AnMaster> ehird, no I don't have that one
21:17:19 <coppro> AnMaster: isn't that just an alias for dpkg-query?
21:17:26 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, install it; it'll get you Arial, Verdana, Georgia etc.
21:17:30 <coppro> Just get msttcorefonts
21:17:30 <AnMaster> coppro, maybe. I'm really not an ubuntu user
21:17:33 <ehird> And almost certainly the bold frakturs.
21:17:35 <ehird> coppro: same package
21:17:36 <fizzie> "dpkg --list" lists also non-purged not-installed things. (Like "dpkg-query -l".)
21:17:57 <ehird> AnMaster: but yeah, "sudo apt-get install msttcorefonts" should do it
21:17:58 <coppro> ugh, moving back and forth between a ThinkPad and other computer is highly annoying
21:18:16 <ehird> This package exists to facilitate upgrades to ttf-mscorefonts-installer.
21:18:16 <ehird> It can safely be removed from your system.
21:18:25 <ehird> AnMaster: ok, install ttf-mscorefonts-installer instead
21:18:35 <fizzie> I have mathematica-fonts, ttf-jsmath and xfonts-mathml all installed, I think any of those might have them too.
21:18:40 <ehird> coppro: so stop using non-thinkpad computers :P
21:18:45 <ehird> fizzie: your screenshot is identical to the text here
21:18:46 <coppro> on ThinkPads it's not the bottom-left key; that's the Fn key
21:18:48 <ehird> so it must be one I have installed
21:18:51 <ehird> coppro: yes, I know
21:19:38 <ehird> coppro: the modifier keys are small since the T43 because of the windows key; are you making any errors?
21:19:38 <ehird> since I'm getting one...
21:20:03 <fizzie> Well, do you happen to have xfonts-mathml? (Iceweasel/firefox suggests that -- and latex-xft-fonts, which is another possibility -- though does not really depend on it.)
21:20:18 <coppro> ehird: Not other than mixing the Ctrl and Fn up
21:21:30 <ehird> coppro: aren't the alt/windows keys upsettingly small?
21:21:44 <coppro> small, but not upsettingly so
21:21:47 <ehird> fizzie: I forget how to check if I have it.
21:22:04 <ehird> coppro: I'm intending to use it as my only computer, so if it's at all annoying I guess I'll replace the keyboard with the T43s
21:22:04 <AnMaster> <fizzie> I have mathematica-fonts, ttf-jsmath and xfonts-mathml all installed, I think any of those might have them too. <-- first one is not found as ubuntu package as far as I can tell...?
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21:22:16 <ehird> AnMaster: it's not that, I don't have it
21:23:04 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's in debian/non-free, I'm not sure what that would translate in Ubuntu, if anything. Maybe not.
21:23:25 <ehird> <fizzie> ehird: U+1d51e onwards.
21:24:15 <fizzie> 1D51E;MATHEMATICAL FRAKTUR SMALL A;Ll;0;L;<font> 0061;;;;N;;;;;
21:24:15 <AnMaster> great, trying to paste it into oowriter crashed oowriter
21:24:27 <ehird> >>> print u'\u1D51E'.encode('utf-8')
21:25:06 <fizzie> Isn't that \u for four-character hex constants?
21:25:07 <coppro> http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U1D400.pdf
21:25:19 <fizzie> print u'\U0001D51E'.encode('utf-8') instead.
21:25:23 <AnMaster> ehird, no luck with mscorefonts
21:25:26 <coppro> U+1D56C is the first one
21:25:29 <AnMaster> tried all the fonts on the text in openoffice
21:25:32 <ehird> AnMaster: sudo apt-get install ttf-*
21:25:41 <ehird> also, openoffice is teh sux
21:25:41 <fizzie> coppro: I jumped directly to small letters, yes.
21:25:53 <AnMaster> and I don't know where else to try fonts
21:26:07 <fizzie> coppro: Oh, and just the "fraktur" font, not "bold fraktur".
21:26:17 <ehird> The only fraktur is BOLD.
21:26:25 * coppro is irritated at KDE's lack of UTF-32 support
21:26:28 <coppro> no, there is non-bold fraktur
21:26:39 <fizzie> I guess I should've said 1D56C indeed, since ehird explicitly specified the BOLD one.
21:26:57 <ehird> coppro: I DO NOT RECOGNIZE THEM
21:27:02 <coppro> ehird: actually, it would be more accurate for me to say 'multiplanar support'
21:27:22 * ehird realises that writing a script to translate text to bold fraktur would be work; gives up
21:27:25 <coppro> KDE has a fit at anything past U+FFFF
21:28:01 <fizzie> And I actually accidentally used fraktur (instead of bold fraktur) in the bits I spoke here; they're really quite similar.
21:28:16 <ehird> fizzie: oh. i recognize bold fraktur then
21:28:44 <fizzie> AnMaster: "mathematical alphanumeric symbols", didn't I mention the name up there?
21:29:23 <fizzie> Also I forgot to list plain fraktur and the double-struck font variant in that list of what the block has.
21:29:46 <AnMaster> ehird, no font in the char map has it
21:29:54 <AnMaster> tell me which one you claim has it
21:30:38 <fizzie> 𝔑𝔬𝔯𝔪𝔞𝔩 and 𝖇𝖔𝖑𝖉 𝖋𝔣𝖗𝔯𝖆𝔞𝖐𝔨𝖙𝔱𝖚𝔲𝖗𝔯, side by side here.
21:30:52 <fizzie> Not such a huge difference.
21:32:25 <ehird> One of them looks bold.
21:32:36 <coppro> Not visibly so on here
21:33:30 <AnMaster> <ehird> sudo apt-get install ttf-droid <-- nor that
21:33:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Just install every font ever!
21:33:48 <AnMaster> ehird, that's like 138 packages
21:33:57 <AnMaster> ehird, tell me what ones you have installed
21:34:37 <ehird> ttf-freefont, perhaps?
21:34:50 <ehird> ttf-opensymbol? ttf-dejavu-extra?
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21:35:29 <AnMaster> ehird, check in your char map?
21:35:34 <fizzie> Finding out which font the characters come shouldn't be this hard; I copy-pasted that stuff to openoffice, exported as PDF, ran through ghostscript with the gazillion "embed all fonts" flags, and the result was a .pdf that displays correctly all right, but "pdffonts" lists just TimesNewRomanPSMT and FreeSerif, which don't sound likely candidates.
21:35:55 <ehird> = ttf-freefont, prolly
21:36:12 <AnMaster> ehird, can you verify freeserif has them there
21:36:24 <AnMaster> since according to the char map it doesn't here
21:36:33 <AnMaster> in case you are using karmic or something
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21:36:57 <ehird> Character map agreed. Upgrade to Karmic then.
21:37:08 <ehird> Jerry: who are you.
21:37:08 <AnMaster> ehird, karmic was buggy last I tried it
21:37:22 <AnMaster> so I'll upgrade once it stabilised a bit
21:37:23 <coppro> Karmic doesn't have ext4 bugs; is therefore >>> Jaunty
21:37:39 <ehird> Karmic is only buggy if you use the messaging menu. :P
21:37:51 <ehird> it might be a UI bug
21:38:07 <coppro> AnMaster: the kernel sometimes locks up when deleting ext4 files on Jaunty
21:38:34 -!- Jerry has changed nick to Cerise.
21:38:35 <AnMaster> coppro, odd, never had such problems and I do use ext4
21:39:09 <AnMaster> ehird, the fact that it networkmanager segfaulted put me off
21:39:14 <coppro> yeah, they only manifested for me after a while of using Jaunty
21:39:14 <fizzie> Frigging font substitution thing is annoying. I don't really think gucharmap can tell where the fonts come from, since the character selection thing seems to only affect things when there are multiple sources. No matter what font I select, I get the same mathematical symbols.
21:39:25 <coppro> at least gucharmap > kcharselect
21:39:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Jaunty segfaults sometimes too...
21:40:11 <AnMaster> ehird, networkmanager? not here
21:40:16 <ehird> In general, I mean.
21:40:16 <ehird> But indeed, Karmic is unpolished, especially if you upgrade from Jaunty.
21:40:31 <AnMaster> ehird, because it was "didn't even start at all, so was unable to reach network"
21:40:49 <AnMaster> was some open bug about it already
21:41:13 <AnMaster> ehird, so I'm waiting for karmic to become stable before I even think about upgrading
21:41:49 <coppro> btw, I'm not kidding about OO.o on KDE. My bug was entitled "KDE file dialog is utterly broken" and no one has debated the appropriateness of the name;
21:41:51 <fizzie> Okay, one font that definitely *has* those symbols is "eufm10" (from the ttf-lyx package), but it's another thing altogether whether it just contains the ascii range in that font, or also that Unicode "mathematical alphanumeric symbols" range mapped.
21:42:27 <ehird> If I didn't expect shitty software to segfault and leave me to fix it I wouldn't be running Linux
21:43:08 * coppro has not seen a noticeable segfault problem on Karmic Koala Kubuntu (sorry)
21:44:00 <ehird> Medibuntu Masturbating Monkey.
21:44:16 <fizzie> Eh, I'll just install fontforge, at least that should be able to definitely tell me what a font contains.
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21:48:30 <fizzie> Nice messages in the terminal:
21:48:31 <fizzie> Help! Server claimed font
21:48:31 <fizzie> -dejavu-dejavu serif-bold-o-normal--13-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-1
21:48:31 <fizzie> existed in the font list, but when I asked for it there was nothing.
21:49:31 <ehird> "I may crash soon." :D
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21:52:08 <ehird> <fungot> we must now carry out his sentence
21:52:08 <fungot> ehird: but, we are far outnumbered!!! the monster who kidnapped the princess to the castle!
21:52:11 <ehird> I read that as "this sentence"
21:52:15 <ehird> which was wonderfully hofstadterian
22:00:38 <fizzie> Bleh. I ran find /usr/share/fonts -iname '*.ttf' and applied the result to a script that used "fontimage --text" to write something with bold fraktur in it; the end result was that in *all* fonts I got just boxes. Either it's a font not there, a font not .ttf, or something's clever enough to substitute those Unicode chars from different codepoints in a math font, which sounds unlikely.
22:00:45 <fizzie> Musts do other things now. →
22:05:23 <ehird> It surely is .ttf...
22:05:39 <ehird> Oh, I also have Humor Sans in ~/.fonts, but I highly doubt it's that.
22:05:48 <ehird> (http://xkcdsucks.blogspot.com/2009/03/xkcdsucks-is-proud-to-present-humor.html)
22:06:53 <ehird> I'm not sure about that part.
22:07:54 <coppro> using different samples for caps and lowercase is a nice touch
22:14:30 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Okay, one font that definitely *has* those symbols is "eufm10" (from the ttf-lyx package), but it's another thing altogether whether it just contains the ascii range in that font, or also that Unicode "mathematical alphanumeric symbols" range mapped. <-- no tty-lyx here
22:14:59 <AnMaster> as in, apt-cache says it doesn't exist
22:15:21 <coppro> so, you know how you should never believe computer manufacturer's claims about battery life of computers?
22:15:35 <fizzie> AnMaster: ttf-lyx is not tty-lyx.
22:15:52 <coppro> turns out that if I leave my new computer idle, it has more than 5 hours battery life O_o
22:16:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, err ttf was what I wrote in ther terminal
22:16:07 <ehird> coppro: that's not much life for idling really.
22:16:27 <AnMaster> Reading state information... Done
22:16:27 <AnMaster> E: Couldn't find package ttf-lyx
22:16:32 <coppro> I could easily drop it
22:16:37 <coppro> turn off wireless card, dim screen, etc.
22:16:52 <coppro> but it's a lot for my experience
22:17:02 <coppro> err, yeah. Meant drop consumption
22:17:02 <ehird> yes, but nobody idles a computer for 5 hours
22:17:22 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Bleh. I ran find /usr/share/fonts -iname '*.ttf' and applied the result to a script that used "fontimage --text" to write something with bold fraktur in it; the end result was that in *all* fonts I got just boxes. Either it's a font not there, a font not .ttf, or something's clever enough to substitute those Unicode chars from different codepoints in a math font, which sounds unlikely. <-- mi
22:17:48 <fizzie> I don't think so, there's no trouble changing the size.
22:18:23 <fizzie> Anyway, it seems that "ttf-lyx" is in Ubuntu indeed, but only in karmic, not in jaunty.
22:18:34 <fizzie> Though I can't be sure that's what the characters come from.
22:18:50 <fizzie> Esp. if ehird doesn't happen to have that font installed.
22:19:12 <coppro> Let's call it the Magic Fallback Font
22:19:27 <coppro> although it could just be Pango shenanigans
22:20:12 <AnMaster> like how all the blackboard bold math ones in there are the same for almost all fonts
22:20:19 <AnMaster> according to the gucharmap thing
22:20:24 <fizzie> FWIW, here's what font-related packages I have installed; at least those with sensible names (i.e. ttf or font in the name): https://pastee.org/53k6b
22:20:25 <coppro> out of curiosity, is there one of a) a C++ inteface to Pango b) a mechanism to use Pango with SDL?
22:20:49 <coppro> AnMaster: gucharmap uses fallback fonts; so if one font on your system has it, it will be used for all fonts that don't
22:21:15 <AnMaster> coppro, that is rather irritating if you wish to check what fonts have it
22:21:32 <fizzie> There's a SDL_Pango project, I think. Don't know if it's actually used or works or developed or recent or anything.
22:22:01 <coppro> KCharSelect doesn't, but it sucks in other ways
22:22:07 <coppro> such as not having the SMP
22:23:43 <ehird> I don't have ttf-lyx.
22:25:57 <AnMaster> hm there is ttf-mathematica4.1
22:26:07 <fizzie> Hey, I found a relatively nice font-manager which can view mapped glyphs for a font.
22:26:09 <AnMaster> except that tries to download from wolfram and gets a 404
22:26:46 <coppro> fizzie: now that I think of it, you could probably hack something together using Pango
22:28:05 <fizzie> It's still just a "examine one font at a time" solution, though; I can't seem to find a "enter a glyph, find all fonts providing it" feature.
22:29:48 <coppro> fizzie: no, I'm saying automate it by having Pango check to see if the font has the character
22:30:01 <fizzie> Yes, yes, you go do that. :p
22:30:41 * coppro has coded in Pango once before... and forgotten it, pretty much
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22:41:35 <fizzie> There's a "find a font by raster image" function, but it fails. Also browsing through sample texts didn't really help.
22:42:28 <fizzie> About the only thing the program told me is that it isn't ttf-lyx, because the eufm10 font in ttf-lyx has different-looking glyphs for those characters.
22:47:17 <coppro> oh, gtkmm has a pangomm library
22:48:48 <AnMaster> <fizzie> There's a "find a font by raster image" function, but it fails. Also browsing through sample texts didn't really help. <-- what app?
22:51:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, if the gucharmap shows the symbol you can right click it and see what font it is really from
22:51:50 <fizzie> I *so* didn't know that.
22:51:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, just found out by mistake
22:52:00 <fizzie> And it is from FreeSerif indeed.
22:52:30 <fizzie> I should've just trusted the "pdffonts" output from the oowriter-generated PDF.
22:52:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, but at the correct code point?
22:52:59 <AnMaster> oh and all my blackboard bold are from dejavu sans or dejavu serif
22:53:09 <coppro> fizzie: pango_font_get_coverage could be used on each font in succession
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22:53:21 <fizzie> Wellll, how should I know? All I know is that when I right-click one of the fraktur/bold fraktur fonts in gucharmap, it says "FreeSerif" down there.
22:53:56 <coppro> fizzie: it took me two minutes to look up. It would probably take me 5 minutes to hack together a program to check a font for a character
22:54:26 <fizzie> coppro: I'm not sure how useful that is now, when it turns out gucharmap can tell where the one it displays comes from.
22:54:32 <fizzie> But sure, if you *want* to make one.
22:55:28 <fizzie> And for the reference, my FreeSerif font is from the ttf-freefont package, version 20090104-4.
22:56:46 <fizzie> Phew, this was far too difficult.
22:56:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, I prefer mostly stable jaunty
22:57:50 <fizzie> Then you'll miss out on the fraktur fun. Though I don't think it's that widely used in IRC.
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22:58:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, strange fonts: ttf-junicode
22:59:07 <AnMaster> "Description: a Unicode font for medievalists (Latin, IPA and Runic)"
22:59:15 <AnMaster> I didn't know "medievalists" was even a word
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23:00:57 <AnMaster> ehird, what was the package for "get evince to integrate into firefox"?
23:03:28 -!- coppro has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.3/20090824101458]").
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23:10:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, your system is called "eris"?
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23:35:18 -!- coppro has joined.
23:50:34 <fizzie> Yes; i've gone Greek for the names here nowadays; I have eris, iris, momus, hermes, thalia, antheia, styx, charon, dionysus, tartarus, and maybe something I've forgotten already. They all have some sort of point, though they are a bit far-fetched.
23:50:52 <coppro> fizzie: can you please send a fraktur character to the channel?
23:55:29 <Ilari> coppro: Like "MATHEMATICAL FRAKTUR CAPITAL A"? Unfortunately, that caracter doesn't seem to want to copy'n'paste here...
23:55:37 <ehird> <AnMaster> ehird, what was the package for "get evince to integrate into firefox"?
23:55:47 <ehird> mozplugger; don't bother, it's very buggy
23:55:53 <ehird> it also absorbs all keystrokes
23:55:57 <ehird> can't go back or close tab without using the mouse
23:57:18 <ehird> uh, most of them let you ctrl-w at least
23:57:22 <ehird> or am I spoilt by Safari's plugins, which let you?
23:57:39 <ehird> all pdf plugins are so misguided, because they're not identical to Safari's.