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00:04:38 <madbrain> I'm having a hard time making an infinite tape in functional language
00:04:55 <oerjan> hint: tuple of two stacks
00:05:26 <pikhq> Hint: that is a tape.
00:05:54 <fax> stacks are finite unless you jiggery pokery with the lazy languages
00:05:54 <madbrain> well, right now that solution works with a finite tape
00:06:10 <oerjan> fax: they are _extensible_
00:06:47 <oerjan> madbrain: ignore fax. but you do need to check for empty stacks, and extend when necessary.
00:06:56 <pikhq> fax: They are of arbitary size, unless your language implementation is broken.
00:07:00 <pikhq> (as they all are.)
00:07:34 <oerjan> fax: are you faxithisia [sp?] ?
00:08:46 <oerjan> madbrain: also, if your stacks are functions, then you can make them self-extending i think. but tuples may be easier otherwise...
00:08:54 <madbrain> I'm trying to make an object that returns a new 0 integer when you pass it True and itself when you pass it False but as of yet it is not working
00:10:01 <madbrain> yeah, I implemented my 8bit integers more or less as objects
00:10:26 <oerjan> madbrain: well it would be f = b(0, f) wouldn't it?
00:10:33 <oerjan> madbrain: well it would be f b = b(0, f) wouldn't it?
00:11:01 <fax> oerjan: I don't like "ignore fax", have I said something that is misleading or idiotic
00:11:16 <oerjan> fax: sorry that was a bit rough
00:11:22 <madbrain> yeah that's what I'm trying to do but the semantics are complicated and as of yet I've mostly got infinite loops or syntax errors
00:11:33 <oerjan> fax: it was wrong, though ;)
00:11:43 <fax> oerjan: I'm not sure why a finite stack + a check if it's null to extend it with a 0 is nicer than an infinite stream of zeros
00:11:54 <fax> oerjan maybe you know something I don't like e.g. what language he is using
00:12:16 <fax> what was wrong?
00:12:23 <madbrain> I'll take anthing that doesn't infinite loop :D
00:12:27 <oerjan> fax: he is using an esoteric functional language which is horrible to program in, so it's best to do everything as simple as at all possible
00:12:42 <fax> yeah to me "finite stack + a check if it's null to extend it with a 0" doesn't sound simple
00:13:07 <oerjan> fax: what was wrong was that you couldn't use two stacks for a tape
00:13:33 <fax> oerjan: You can certainly use two stacks for a tape: If you want an infinite tape then two finite stacks do not work
00:13:36 <oerjan> fax: however the alternative is to use a function for an infinite stream here. it _may_ be simpler though.
00:13:42 <SimonRC> I don't suppose you could make the lists have loops at the end to make them look infinit when popped?
00:13:53 <fax> really a function for an infinite stream? that's a great idea I wish I'd thought of that :P
00:13:57 <oerjan> fax: the language has nothing but tuples and functions
00:14:02 <madbrain> simonrc: that's what I'm trying to do
00:14:50 <madbrain> I've just added an interpretation of tuples as closures, which does help a bit, but this is still maddening :D
00:14:56 <oerjan> and i think its data is all immutable, i may remember wrong though
00:15:53 <madbrain> fax: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Univar
00:17:09 <madbrain> also the tuple-disjoin operators apply in the wrong order, which is quite confusing
00:18:29 <oerjan> madbrain: note that when doing fixpoints in a non-lazy language you need to include the argument before taking fixpoint, otherwise you get an infinite loop. (like in unlambda.) maybe that is your problem?
00:19:03 <madbrain> I think I've had that problem yeah
00:19:24 <fax> can you compile lambda calculus into Univar?
00:19:44 <fax> I'd probably start by attempting that
00:19:53 <fax> (if it turned out realy hard then.. give up)
00:20:12 <oerjan> the only problem i see with that is that univar, as the name implies, only allows you to handle one variable/argument at a time. although i guess tuples helps with that.
00:20:53 <madbrain> oerjan: well, in practice you make statements that reassign the variable with a new tuple
00:21:21 <madbrain> so you can keep multiple variables, it's just incredibly inconveinient :D
00:24:26 <fax> the interpreter is a bit crude :P
00:24:27 <oerjan> but indeed, if this is for proving turing-completeness, lambda calculus or combinator calculus is likely to be easier
00:24:31 <fax> program="COPY PROGRAM HERE"
00:24:58 <madbrain> well, the lua documention didn't mention any text input function I think :D
00:25:15 <fax> so you invented this language?
00:25:54 <madbrain> It's not quite as cool as unlambda but yeah :D
00:26:04 <oerjan> fax: so i assume you aren't faxithisia from old then
00:27:01 <fax> madbrain: When I run the cat program it prints each char on its own line - is that correct?
00:27:11 <fax> oerjan that was my old nick
00:27:34 <oerjan> well long time no see then, i think
00:27:45 <Ilari> madbrain: file:read().
00:28:09 <Ilari> madbrain: Use something like io.stdin or whatever io.open returns as file there.
00:28:42 <fax> there should be a way to make it print without newlines..
00:34:13 <fax> what does that do :P
00:34:33 <Ilari> madbrain: Can you write quine in it?
00:34:45 <madbrain> before execution, var= 0 integer object
00:35:58 <madbrain> then it makes a tuple: var = {integer,infinite_stack_function}
00:36:46 <madbrain> Then it makes a tuple in an alternative way that is functional (basically a function that returns a on true and b on false)
00:39:04 <madbrain> and in this new tuple it puts the integer object, and then a new closure/object made out of the infinite stack function and a tuple with the required data (integer object and infinite stack function)
00:41:07 <Ilari> TC language with unrestricted output should be sufficient for existence of quine...
00:41:10 <madbrain> the infinite stack function reads in a value, if it's true it returns the integer object, if it false it returns a new closure made out of itself
00:41:52 <madbrain> yeah quite technically should be possible although I haven't tried it yet
00:42:24 <fax> Ilari I wonder if there's a proof of that which you could use to construct a quine for arbitrary languages
00:42:30 <madbrain> yay, now I have a full branfuck infinite tape object
00:43:22 <fax> madbrain: How do I do one thing after another: Like print one bit then print another bit? I guess make functions nested that do each one and put the result into the next in sequence?
00:43:46 <madbrain> well, functions are made out of series of expressions
00:44:25 <Ilari> Univar defintely has unrestricted output. So if it is TC, quine will exist...
00:44:40 <madbrain> so suppose you want to print something, you can keep the state of the variable like this: <&,!stuff_you_want_to_print
00:45:24 <fax> madbrain: Oh I can just write: !,!,!,!, to print , four times?
00:45:38 <fax> (!,!,!,!,) prints its argument four times?
00:45:53 <madbrain> fax: yeah, that's 4 statements but yeah
00:46:00 <fax> I'm confused
00:46:04 <fax> 4 statements?
00:46:06 <madbrain> that's if you want to print all of the variable
00:46:34 <madbrain> fax: yeah, all the code is made out of statements, but the assignment is implicit
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00:48:56 <madbrain> to print a part of the current var, you'd go var = {var,print(stuff_you_want_to_print)}.left
00:49:41 <fax> this is hard :P
00:51:56 <fax> so I'm not sure about the syntax: so I wrote some function ..., and I wonder if I need to write $(...)&,! to say apply a pair of the variable with an input bit to it
00:52:02 <fax> is that right? or I messed up somewhere
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00:53:25 <fax> I should have written ? instead of !
00:53:32 <fax> input from the keyboard
00:54:13 <madbrain> so that'd be $(..)&,? yeah, equivalent to var=func(join(var,input()))
00:54:57 <fax> damn my first program in univar didn't work
00:55:38 <fax> it was just supposed to print the first char of the input
00:56:00 <madbrain> so you have to transfer 8 bits first :D
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00:59:25 <Ilari> Heh... Someone should make executable which when run prints SHA-1 of itself (there's already C code which prints MD5 of its source).
00:59:50 <fax> Ilari was that done by brute force?
01:00:31 <Ilari> fax: It doesn't require breaking the hash.
01:01:02 <madbrain> look at its executable data, SHA-1's it, print?
01:01:03 <Ilari> Or better yet, SHA-256 of itself.
01:01:09 <fax> how does it work then
01:01:18 <Ilari> Closely related to quines.
01:02:18 <Ilari> Essentially, variant of quine which instead of directly outputting the string, feeds it to be hashed and prints the output.
01:05:38 <Ilari> Actually might be even easier methods to do it with native code, as you can directly read the code memory.
01:06:02 <fax> madbrain !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? works, but $(!,!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!)? doesn't.. why?
01:06:19 <fax> shouldn't they be the same
01:07:02 <fax> it works :D
01:07:26 <Gregor> Can you write an interpreter that takes the program as a file instead of being embedded ...
01:11:03 <madbrain> once I finish this brainfuck interpret :D
01:11:52 <Ilari> Heck, a.out can be made to just directly map the text parts of program and headers to memory. Don't use data segment and put all variables in BSS and its more like shooting fish in barrel (most difficult task is to implement the hash function).
01:12:36 <fax> madbrain I don't understand !
01:12:45 <fax> this part "put a 0 bit in the output buffer if its value is (>,) or a 1 bit if its value is (<,),"
01:13:33 <madbrain> the extra comma was due to text formatting :(
01:13:59 <madbrain> but yeah (>,) is used as "true" bit and (<,) as "false"
01:15:20 <madbrain> or that's the wrong way around actually
01:16:19 <madbrain> you can do conditional execution with $$bit&(true function)(false function)parameters
01:23:08 <oerjan> <fax> Ilari I wonder if there's a proof of that which you could use to construct a quine for arbitrary languages
01:23:17 <oerjan> see http://www.madore.org/~david/computers/quine.html#sec_fp
01:25:54 <fax> oerjan can you actually produce the quine automatically from this proof?
01:26:19 <fax> I might have a go at that some point in the future
01:27:17 <oerjan> we also had a discussion on the wiki when someone tried to construct a tc language without a quine. it depends subtly on how you define "unrestricted output"...
01:27:37 <oerjan> now if i could just remember the page...
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01:38:18 <fax> madbrain: I'm confused again :P .. if I do $(...)&,? that's getting (variable,input) inside the function (as it should) but if I do $(...)&?, that's getting (input,variable) .. but I expected it to be getting (input,input)
01:38:40 <fax> why doesn't variable get written over by the ? part happening first?
01:39:28 <fax> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Smjg
01:41:34 <oerjan> fax: i think the assignment only applies to whole statements?
01:42:02 <oerjan> inside an expression, ? just returns a value
01:42:50 <madbrain> $(...)&?, is equivalent to var = fx({in(),var})
01:43:15 <fax> I can't read this fx({in(),var})
01:43:55 <fax> I just don't know what that means
01:44:23 <madbrain> {x,y} is lua for "create new array with elements x and y"
01:44:39 <madbrain> could also be written as tuple(x,y)
01:44:42 <fax> $f&? is like f({in(), var}) ?
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01:59:01 <madbrain> woot, I have everything done except the brainfuck looping :D
01:59:14 <fax> wow you are fast
01:59:49 <madbrain> well, I had most operators working already
02:00:18 <madbrain> now it can parse a brainfuck program into a function except for looping
02:04:15 <madbrain> ok looping time, this will require some fixed point magic :D
02:18:45 <pikhq> ... But the looping is the nontrivial bit.
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02:35:54 * fax is failing to encode church numerals into Univar
02:38:02 <madbrain> Church numeral 0 would be... (()) I think?
02:38:27 <oerjan> n f x = f(f(...(x)...))
02:39:14 <oerjan> i think making the argument a tuple would be easier...
02:40:08 <madbrain> Church numeral 1 would be... (&($<,>,),) as far as I can guess
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02:40:38 <oerjan> um you don't need to return a tuple
02:41:08 <madbrain> (&($<,>,),) is the d function I think
02:41:21 <oerjan> although that _could_ be convenient...
02:42:06 <oerjan> decrementing is generally awkward with church numerals
02:42:11 <madbrain> it uses a special function evaluation: if you evaluate a tuple, it uses the left member as a function, and combines the right member and the parameter in a tuple
02:42:54 <madbrain> Basically without that there are no closures
02:43:42 <madbrain> I modifed how that worked a bit because no closures was making things hard :D
02:46:47 <fax> yeah I was trying without, I couldn't seen any way
02:47:37 <madbrain> like, you can emulate closures but that was too ugly so I added a hack
02:47:56 <fax> oh I was trying that but I couldn't see how to do it for things like ((...))
02:47:59 <fax> where you have nesting
02:49:16 <madbrain> and when a closure function gets called, it gets a tuple with the original closure data on the left and the parameter on the right
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03:34:20 <madbrain> argh, unpredictable crashed :( :( :(
03:36:50 <fax> madbrain http://pastie.org/650996
03:36:56 <fax> I modified the interpreter slightly
03:37:26 <fax> well I also put my program in there you can try it out
03:37:35 <fax> that was bloody hard :D
03:38:55 <fax> the program uses church numerals to loop
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03:42:14 <madbrain> yeah this is like reading a solid block of unlambda :D
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05:21:03 <zzo38> Why did freenode-connect send a VERSION request twice?
05:22:04 * oerjan doesn't remember seeing that
05:24:45 <oerjan> oh wait yes, during netsplits i think
05:25:06 <zzo38> Problems don't just solve themself, you know.
05:25:25 <zzo38> I know why many people don't like GPL, it is because GNU GPL is very communist.
05:25:39 <zzo38> GPL v3 is even more communist, but I don't have the problem.
05:25:46 <zzo38> I am fine with that.
05:27:11 <zzo38> And I haven't had problems with forking GPL'd projects. (That is, as long as the program runs!)
05:27:32 <zzo38> But sometimes I write short programs (or some others) in public domain, instead.
05:30:09 <zzo38> Now you can see, how, maintaining a GPL'd project is not too difficult, here is a forked project so you can see by example: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/mzx_extended/
05:30:51 <zzo38> The time on my computeris many minutes off.
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05:33:00 <zzo38> I have never seen keyboard with backspace below tab. But I think some space cadet keyboards have RUB OUT below tab, however.
05:33:31 <zzo38> Have you ever used any space cadet keyboards?
05:35:07 * oklokok is tempted to say "DON'T YOU MEAN UNDERLOAD, MADBRAIN", but it would make no sense because madbrain isn't oerjan.
05:35:43 <zzo38> DON'T YOU MEAN UNDERLOAD,OKLOKOK
05:36:19 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/images/SpaceCadet1.jpeg
05:36:42 <zzo38> O, OK, you always mean underload.
05:40:18 <oklokok> yeah, except when i mean unlambda
05:40:35 <oklokok> because i always mean underload
05:42:39 <zzo38> So sometimes you mean both?
05:45:48 <oklokok> no no sometimes i mean unlambdad
05:46:06 <madbrain> hmm, only some bf programs work :(
05:46:54 <zzo38> Some brainfuck programs require values wrapping 0-255
05:47:10 <zzo38> While others are universal
05:47:15 <madbrain> actually I think wrapping 0-255 should actually work
05:48:07 <zzo38> Fix your interpreter, try that. You can also add debug codes to see how much memory is needed, too, if you want to do that.
05:50:30 <madbrain> also it does not support comments
05:51:18 <madbrain> I wonder if the programs expect 255 or 0 for EOF
05:51:27 <zzo38> Usually 0 for EOF, I think.
05:52:14 <zzo38> Some programs also work with no-change on EOF, some require 0 for EOF. Some might use 255 for EOF but I have not seen much of these
05:52:22 <zzo38> OK, then set 255 for EOF
05:52:48 <zzo38> Some brainfuck interpreters have command-line parameter to select the modes
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05:55:42 <madbrain> like, if the brackets are mismatched it will probably generate some horrible functionnal mes
05:56:18 <zzo38> All valid programs should have matched brackets anyways
06:00:09 <madbrain> haha this fibonacci program is getting progressively slower
06:00:26 <zzo38> The megazeux.4th file is public domain, however. (It consists mostly of over one hundred constants)
06:00:52 <zzo38> If the fibonacci programs uses infinite size numbers, it is supposed to get progressively slower, isn't it?
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06:05:27 <madbrain> yeah ok this interpreter works :D
06:05:58 <madbrain> but since most programs have newlines/comments/etc you have to edit them to remove that :D
06:16:14 * Sgeo got a Google Wave invite :D
06:28:07 <madbrain> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Univar#Brainfuck_interpreter Yes :D
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07:38:26 <ehird> 09:02:34 <SimonRC> http://fof.durge.org/~sc/invite_only/langs.png
07:38:56 <ehird> 16:42:24 <fax> Ilari I wonder if there's a proof of that which you could use to construct a quine for arbitrary languages
07:44:25 <ehird> 17:27:17 <oerjan> we also had a discussion on the wiki when someone tried to construct a tc language without a quine. it depends subtly on how you define "unrestricted output"...
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07:44:46 <ehird> indeed, you must be able to print any computable translation of program state
07:46:51 <ehird> although, well, we should define it based on turing machines
07:46:57 <ehird> any turing-computable translation of any turing state
07:47:07 <ehird> so if you can't print out a certain register, that's fine, just emulate a turing machine
07:47:20 <ehird> ofc that fails for sub-tc languages, but "eh"
07:47:51 <coppro> hmm... having a TC language without a quine would be an interesting feat
07:48:10 <coppro> does BF have a known quine?
07:48:23 <bsmntbombdood> i heard you like turing machines so a put a turing maching in your turing machine so you can compute while you compute
07:48:41 <ehird> 21:25:25 <zzo38> I know why many people don't like GPL, it is because GNU GPL is very communist.
07:48:42 <ehird> (a) totally wrong, it is not communist
07:48:42 <ehird> (b) I dislike the GPL for entirely different reasons, TYVM
07:48:59 <coppro> there shouldn't be anything theoretically requiring tc languages to have quines... but hmm
07:49:15 <ehird> 21:30:09 <zzo38> Now you can see, how, maintaining a GPL'd project is not too difficult, here is a forked project so you can see by example: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/mzx_extended/
07:49:15 <ehird> Nobody ever said it was difficult; people have philosophical objections to doing such a thing, howeveer.
07:49:41 <bsmntbombdood> seems obvious that any tc language with output has a quine
07:49:52 <ehird> o"x", output constant string x
07:50:07 <ehird> you need the finicky definition that you must be able to transform state into output arbitrarily
07:50:17 <ehird> but not all state is required, just enough to use all the computational powers of the language
07:50:19 <ehird> it's *very* subtle
07:50:42 <ehird> congrats, you just offloaded the problem to defining output in a retarded way
07:50:56 <ehird> which is... distinct from providing a definition of "IO-complete"
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08:00:05 <ehird> "Bill O'Reilly: Why Obama's Nobel Prize, Deserved or Not, Is Good for America" // well... that's... an unexpected sentiment
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08:44:31 <ehird> Free market economics: "I define theft to include taxes, and therefore taxes are theft, which is immoral and cannot be supported under any circumstances."
08:45:37 <ehird> (Usually followed up with, as in this depressingly-stereotypical case, "Also, if you're rich you're hardworking and manly! And the rich have no problem with the poor, the poor just keep themselves poor BECAUSE THEY WON'T WORK HARD.")
08:49:46 <ehird> "Old versions (i.e., anything before 19.29) of GNU Emacs had problems editing files larger than 8 megabytes."
09:03:33 <fizzie> 19.28 translates to November 1994; that's not so crazy-old.
09:10:11 <ehird> Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping, Nine Megabytes And A Crash.
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09:12:59 <fizzie> Well, you have to compare and contrast that to other state-of-the-art high-end for-professional-use-only text editors. Say, Notepad, with its 64K file size limit.
09:14:08 <fizzie> Maybe not Notepad in 1994, come to think of it.
09:15:50 <fizzie> I don't quite remember whether Write had some arbitrary size limits.
09:17:04 <ehird> 8 megabytes... so tiny
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09:22:26 <fizzie> It's a megabyte, it's by definition not tiny.
09:22:41 <ais523> wow, you're here early...
09:23:26 <ehird> ais523: got up at 1am, heh.
09:23:32 <ehird> well, woke at 1am, got up at 2am.
09:23:57 <ehird> feels like 9am though.
09:24:08 <fizzie> Oh, right, I was wondering the one day about ehird's education. I mean, shouldn't you be having some sort of imposed schedules because of related activities or something? I understand that's customary.
09:24:27 <ehird> i am crazy good at slinging things
09:24:44 <ais523> gah, why is the local bus service website at .com?
09:25:04 <ehird> because .com is memorable
09:25:27 <fizzie> Yes, it evokes all those "dot-com crash" connotations immediately.
09:25:45 <ais523> a local bus service, which is confined by definition to the area around Birmingham and therefore to the UK
09:25:55 <ais523> should clearly be at .co.uk; .com makes absolutely no sense there
09:26:00 <ais523> and how am I meant to guess it?
09:26:01 <ehird> .com is memorable to people
09:26:15 <ehird> nobody cares what you can remember after forgetting because you're a tiny %
09:26:36 <ehird> .com or .co.uk are memorable, .com is likely the first thing someone who only remembers the other bit to try
09:26:40 <ais523> ehird: http://networkwestmidlands.com/BusReview/Bus_Routes_and_Changes.aspx is the page I'm looking at now
09:26:55 <ais523> they're busy messing with all the bus routes
09:27:03 <ais523> in a way that is mostly very sensible, but very annoying to me
09:27:18 <ehird> well, that's your problem :P
09:27:38 <ais523> could make it harder to get in in the morning, though
09:27:48 <ais523> I now definitely need two busses, or a lot of walking, no matter which way I go
09:28:15 <ais523> and I'm going to need a new bus map
09:28:31 <ais523> I'm particularly annoyed because I tried to get a special sort of bus pass specifically to allow for potential changes
09:28:34 <ais523> and it turned out it didn't exist
09:29:34 <ehird> maybe you could try something other than a bos
09:29:39 <ehird> ((like a public hovercraft))
09:30:33 <ehird> i'm petitioning the guvvmn't to make a public hovercraft service
09:31:11 <fizzie> Speaking of TLDs and bus companies; there's this Finnish company (Matkahuolto) who operate between-cities bus stations and therefore are the logical place to look for tickets and schedules for any "not-internal" bus lines. They have two websites; a .com for the company (for freight delivery services and stuff like that), and .info for consumers-looking-for-bus-schedules.
09:31:41 <fizzie> The word "hovehird" sounds funny.
09:31:48 <ehird> I wonder if dis.info is registered; that's a rather ridiculously obvious domain.
09:31:52 <ehird> No HTTP, at least.
09:32:15 <ehird> Registrant Organization:the disinformation company ltd.
09:33:24 <fizzie> They do have a HTTP-answering server at disinfo.com.
09:34:32 <fizzie> Why does that nic.info whois say "Expiration Date 01-Aug-2006 17:00:42 UTC" for dis.info.
09:35:39 <ehird> It's disinfo, duh.
09:35:55 <fizzie> There's also a trademark claim registered in there; "dis" as the US trademark number 2218816.
09:35:56 <ehird> From the monopolistic registration cartel of the domain registrars.
09:38:48 <fizzie> They are being very disinformational, since the actual 2218816 trademark is for the word "disinformation", not "dis".
09:39:31 <ais523> isn't Dis a variant of Malbolge?
09:39:54 <ehird> First suggestion for "is hir" on the google: "is hiroshima still radioactive".
09:41:16 <fizzie> Second suggestion for plain old "is ": "is she going out with him". Is that some sort of proper noun for something? It doesn't sound a very productive question to ask Google, especially like that with no names.
09:41:42 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=is+she+going+out+with+him&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g4
09:42:03 <fizzie> Yes, I forgot it when typing it here.
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12:34:47 <ehird> http://xkcd.com/648/
12:34:52 <ehird> ↑ still not funny.
12:38:07 <oklopol> that's not just not funny, that's plain retarded, foliage is one of the most beautiful sights there is
12:38:26 <ais523> my issue is not with looking at beautiful foliage, but insisting on taking photos of it
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12:40:08 <oklopol> well yeah, *that's* a valid point.
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13:05:31 <ehird> ais523: what's wrong with taking photos
13:05:41 <ehird> you don't think the point is to actually look at generic photos of foliage, do you?
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13:09:41 <ehird> [13:05] ehird: ais523: what's wrong with taking photos
13:09:41 <ehird> [13:05] ehird: you don't think the point is to actually look at generic photos of foliage, do you?
13:10:08 <ais523> it's just, so many people seem to take loads of photos, then forget about htem
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13:10:14 <ais523> possibly putting them on Facebook in the meantime
13:10:22 <ais523> you can't capture a moment by using a camera, it doesn't work
13:10:40 <ehird> you can't, but you can capture a trigger for a vague memory of one for your recall later
13:11:02 <ehird> and people either take photos for that, or because they see something that strikes them as a good photo; overwhelmingly commonly the former
13:11:13 <ehird> the facebooking is just because facebook promotes a weird social environment.
13:11:30 <ehird> but yeah, people do take too many photos. it's because it's too easy and they have no discretion
13:11:57 <ehird> there have only been a few handfuls of photos of me for many years...
13:12:11 <ais523> I don't understand Facebook at all; it seems like the sort of thing that isn't designed for me to understand
13:13:03 <ehird> Facebook today is nothing like Facebook was then. Facebook today is a "safe internet"; only your friends see things, everything is only a few clicks away, and it generally feels like a "border" around the internet; you can be comfortable inside and do internetty stuff
13:13:23 <ehird> this fails horribly because people are stupid and have no discretion. also, the idea of a second internet where facebook knows all your shit is wrong, just wrong.
13:13:37 <ehird> but it makes people happy.
13:13:49 <ehird> it's easy enough to understand, it's just not easy to like.
13:13:49 <ais523> oh, and here this was me thinking it was a method of sharing photos and of sending messages if you didn't understand email
13:14:02 <ehird> you forgot the quiz applications.
13:14:13 <ehird> or the supermegapoke applications! annoy people with 10 new ways.
13:14:22 <ais523> ehird: I assume that sort of thing will pervade anything on the Internet, and isn't facebook-specific
13:14:29 <ehird> except they fill up your stream
13:14:54 <ehird> "Shitfaced Retard poked you with a cake! [Please God Let Me Murder This Person] [Why Oh Why]"
13:15:08 <ehird> "Person did a quiz! WHY DON'T YOU DO THIS QUIZ? You can view our ads."
13:15:16 <ehird> "Thing you actually care about"
13:16:25 <ais523> don't all the successful Facebook apps require you to forward them to 20 friends before giving you the results of the quiz, or whatever?
13:16:55 <ehird> "IAMA psychic medium" no you're not
13:17:33 <ehird> ais523: anyway, facebook has nothing of value to anyone who isn't interested in the bullshit parts of social interactions multiplied because they're only a click away, combined with the popular function of the internet among most people that causes them to become idiots
13:17:52 <ehird> and who doesn't need a sense of false security because it's only going to do anything to people on your friends list
13:19:13 <ais523> in other words, it only annoys people you care about
13:19:42 <ehird> and they give their info to facebook, view ads and nowadays occasionally even pay for doing so
13:19:47 <ehird> brilliant, isn't it?
13:20:17 <ais523> I know some of my friends are trying to persuade me to create a Facebook account, but I'm ignoring them
13:21:07 <ehird> ais523: the fact that they're trying it enough to show up on your persuade-radar shows that you have a less ridiculous social channel anyway :P
13:21:27 <ais523> ehird: more the fact that I drifted out of touch with them for 4 years
13:21:34 <ais523> and only met back up with them due to randomly encountering them in a pub
13:21:54 <ehird> kind of hard to drift away on facebook, you're bombarded with them until you defriend, at which point they get upset
13:22:18 <ehird> which right off the bat makes it useless in the long term
13:22:28 <ais523> maybe that's why it has so much short-term staying power, come to think of it
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13:53:14 <fizzie> I got harassed enough to make a Facebook account, but I can't say I've quite gotten "into" it; especially the applications part seems to make no sense.
13:54:07 <fizzie> "<name redacted> found a sad Ugly Duckling on their farm. Oh no!
13:54:07 <fizzie> <name redacted> was farming when a sad, Ugly Duckling wandered onto their farm in FarmVille. This poor ducky ran away from his old home because the other ducklings made fun of him. He feels very sad and could use a new home. [Comment] [Like] [Adopt the Duckling!]"
13:54:35 <ehird> [Murder <name redacted>]
13:56:13 <fizzie> Deewiant: I just don't see the point of it, I guess.
13:56:30 <fizzie> I mean, what does it even mean? What happens if I click there?
13:56:46 <fizzie> Does somehow a duckling pop out of my monitor or what?
13:58:01 <Deewiant> More likely, it'll start up Farmville and get you playing.
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14:34:48 * ehird is moving in... uh... less than an hour?
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14:35:31 <ehird> you may all call me "mr really-obscure-village-near-hexham-but-nearer-prudhoe"
14:35:35 <ehird> or "john", for short
14:37:05 <fizzie> I mean no disrespect, but that sounds so backwards. Are you going to start raising sheep there or something?-)
14:37:39 <ehird> Anyway, Prudhoe is like 5 minutes away from it, so it's not exactly isolated.
14:37:56 <ehird> Just think of it as, you know, a sun flare. Except it's a ... place thing.
14:38:03 <ehird> Pthing: no, my mother was raised there though.
14:38:37 <Pthing> (i don't know the area, i am just reading out places from this map here)
14:39:02 <ehird> it's smaller than both. although i attended broomhaugh's ... wtf, I've forgotten what the name of the school-before-middle-schools are.
14:39:07 <ehird> i have a bad memory when I'm a bit sleepy
14:39:17 <ehird> it isn't called that here iirc
14:39:40 <ehird> hey i'm not a geordie, I was born in the south!
14:39:48 <fizzie> Your names, they are more awesomer than ours. "Broomhaugh".
14:39:50 <ehird> not that i stayed there for any appreciable amount of time, mind
14:40:28 <ehird> Pthing: anyway up the zoom level a few times :P
14:41:25 <ehird> (It's small enough that I thought I found a single relevant google result, but it was about *another* tiny village with the same name...)
14:42:25 <ehird> no, it's not """carlisle"""
14:42:39 <Pthing> man fuck this i'm not reading every fuken little burg in northumbria out
14:42:53 <ehird> THAT'S YOUR PROBLEM
14:43:06 <ehird> anyway it doesn't have a phone line, so I'm going to have a fun day in Buying a 3G Modem Stick Thing land
14:43:40 <fizzie> Does it have this "running water" thing?
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14:44:00 <ehird> I gather that is the case.
14:44:21 <ehird> Also, eel-ectrissy-tee.
14:44:29 <ehird> I don't know what that is, but I think I like eels.
15:00:35 <AnMaster> <pikhq> AnMaster: Never am. <-- what I wanted to say was that it is a catastrophe that Gentoo marked KDE 4.3.1 as stable...
15:01:57 <ehird> hi, i'm tired and moving
15:02:11 <ehird> also, what's wrong with marking kde 4.3.1 as stable
15:02:19 <ehird> is there some rule that kde 4 can never ever be stable
15:03:00 <AnMaster> ehird, well for example it is still not usable in many aspects. Like konsole.
15:03:19 <AnMaster> konsole in KDE 4 lacks the option to make bold look as bright.
15:03:31 <AnMaster> effect is horrible with that control code as bolder text
15:03:48 <AnMaster> (oh and the spec allows either bold or intensified btw)
15:03:59 <AnMaster> konsole from kde 3 has the option
15:04:20 <AnMaster> yes there is an open bug report. Developer show unwillingness even with attached patches.
15:04:34 <ehird> "i don't like a design decision, therefore it is unstable"?
15:04:40 <ehird> remarkably egocentric
15:05:01 <AnMaster> ehird, how is dumbing down the interface and making the software ugly a "design decision".
15:05:32 <ehird> ooh, "my opinions are universal syndrome", i guess you suffer from hypocrititis too, since, you know, you accuse me of suffering form it
15:05:43 <ehird> especially about such a minor cosmetic aspect
15:05:47 <AnMaster> and unstable as in "not a possible replacement for current stable version"
15:05:55 <AnMaster> ehird, also there are quite a long CC list on that bug.
15:06:03 <AnMaster> and there are lots of other issues.
15:06:31 <ehird> so i ask for an issue, you give me a subjective cosmetic issue that clearly the devs disagree with, and then a vague "lots of other issues", and therefore it doesn't count as stable (which = stable, not thing i like)
15:06:44 <ehird> i think i'll stop making fun of you, too easy these days
15:19:15 <ehird> fizzie: are those 3g stick things any good?
15:19:20 <ehird> technically this one is faster than 3g, apparently.
15:19:30 <ehird> so it'll be on some carrier-specific band, no doubt
15:20:35 <fizzie> Well, "3G" is a matter of definition. And it's pretty carrier-dependant, or so I hear. Certainly they're good enough for web-surfing, but more interactive things might be slightly painful.
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15:21:02 <ehird> 3.6Mb/s, apparently. Which will be, uh, less so, indoors, in a village.
15:21:11 <ehird> Also, less so due to likely being almost a lie.
15:22:02 <ehird> This one's technically pay as you go, but it came with £15 = 15Gb (or GB or GiB? Who knows?) so that's better than all the monthly ones, at least if you're only using it for a month or less, which applies in this case (a week or so until the phone line is up)
15:22:20 <fizzie> Yes; their goodness depends quite a lot on how lucky you happen to be when it comes to base station locations.
15:23:33 <ehird> http://www.metacafe.com/watch/255588/fun_with_an_old_hardrive/
15:23:55 <fizzie> 3.6 Mb/s sounds like the slower HSDPA theoretical-maximum (the faster one is 7.2 Mbps), which I think is even almost attainable in the real world. Though I don't have much hands-on experience with actual speeds, given that my contract is only for the slowest possible 384 kbps speed.
15:24:04 <ehird> fizzie: The other networks say "no, you cannot get it there" apart from 3, who say "you can get it... outdoors".
15:24:16 <ehird> But vodafone are all, you know, hippie and loving of that postcode.
15:24:21 <ehird> "Yo, inside, sure!"
15:24:28 <ehird> "Maaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnn."
15:25:10 <fizzie> You can improve things a lot with an external antenna, but on the other hand, really, a week is not a very long time.
15:25:38 <ehird> Packing my vital stuff to move now. Will get the rest Some Other Time(TM).
15:26:08 <ehird> Better turn this off. See you all in... some time!
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16:20:51 <AnMaster> <ehird> Packing my vital stuff to move now. Will get the rest Some Other Time(TM).
16:23:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: See logs about 1h50m ago.
16:27:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how long before his landline is back up+
16:27:18 <Deewiant> 2009-10-12 17:26:08 ( ehird) Better turn this off. See you all in... some time!
16:27:32 <AnMaster> hm I thought he might have said it but I skipped the relevant line
16:28:37 <AnMaster> considering how horribly slow surfing through GPRS (err actually not that, nor 3G, but something in between forgot the name of it) is.
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16:28:45 <AnMaster> sure 3G would be better, but not that much better
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17:30:40 <fax> is it true that wolfram made a backup of your brain and patented it??
17:30:53 <fax> I heard that's how alpha works
17:32:20 <ais523> nah, it just lists Wikipedia and Encyclopedia Britannica as sources, then displays the wrong info even though the sources have the right info
17:32:26 <ais523> `wolfram Birthdate of Jimmy Wales
17:32:50 <HackEgo> Birthdate of Jimmy Wales \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ Jimbo Wales \ Result: \ \ date of birth \ \ August 7, 1966 \ Date formats: \ \ 08 07 1966 month day year \ Time in 1966: th \ \ 219 day \ \ Observances for August 7, 1966 United States : \ \ no official holidays or major observances \ Notable events for August 7,
17:32:55 <ais523> heh, it was just being slow
17:33:20 <ais523> also, looks like the Alpha people have corrected it
17:33:23 <ais523> it was a day out last time I checked
17:34:15 <fizzie> You probably meant EDGE there.
17:36:10 <fax> wolfram alpha isn't sure what to do with your input
17:36:12 <fizzie> And original "3G" is that 384 kbps which is not much better; but HSDPA goes up to 3.6 Mbps / 7.2 Mbps, and HSPA+ to something like 20-40 Mbps theoretically. From what I hear, it's perfectly possible to web-surf with those connections without too much pain, though I guess SSH is still not so fun, thanks to the over-the-average latencies.
17:36:14 <fax> `wolfram alpha isn't sure what to do with your input
17:36:55 <HackEgo> speed of 3G \ \ Input information: \ \ magnetic induction radius electric charge mass \ \ 3 gauss 28 cm centimeters 1.6 10 \ 19 \ \ C coulombs \ 27 \ \ 1.671 10 \ \ kg kilograms \ \ Radius for the circular orbit of a charged particle in a magnetic field: \ \ speed \ \ 8.043 km s kilometers per second 8043 m s meters
17:37:15 <fizzie> Okay, so with a modern 3G connection you can download at 8.043 km/s.
17:37:21 <fizzie> That's not too shabby.
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17:38:36 <fizzie> (And the "You" a couple of minutes back was of course to AnMaster, I can just never remember the attributions.)
17:39:38 <ais523> does anyone here know how to boot Windows 7 in safe mode?
17:43:41 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Okay, so with a modern 3G connection you can download at 8.043 km/s.
17:44:08 <fizzie> See the W|A query above.
17:44:10 <AnMaster> ais523, wouldn't it be F8 during boot?
17:44:23 <ais523> AnMaster: I already tried that
17:45:20 <ais523> I'll try tapping F8 rather than holding it down this time
17:46:44 * ais523 resorts to the traditional tactic of cutting the power during boot
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17:47:17 <ehird> Sure, the computer is moved; what more does one need?
17:47:26 <ehird> Hello from a 3G thingy!
17:47:40 <AnMaster> ehird, when will you get landline?
17:47:44 <ehird> IT IS REASONABLY FAST IN FACT
17:47:48 <ehird> AnMaster: Like a week or so.
17:48:02 <ehird> This room is nice.
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17:48:50 * ehird breaks the news to a friend after having only mentioned it the first time some days ago and not mentioning it since by saying "Hi! We moved."
17:49:14 <AnMaster> ehird, how long ago did you learn this?
17:49:42 <ehird> It's been rather sudden indeed.
17:50:24 <AnMaster> when I moved last time I knew it months in advance (though that was mostly because it needed a lot of renovation before moving in was possible)
17:50:53 <ehird> The layout of the two rooms I've taken hostage of are quite amenable to having lots of stuff in them, which is nice.
17:51:20 <ehird> (One of the rooms is admittedly quite small to count as a peer to the other; I'm in it now because it has a desk as opposed to a wooden chair, which is a more useful single piece of furniture.)
17:51:36 <ehird> (Technically it has a filing cabinet too, and a storage unit thing in the wall.)
17:54:01 <ais523> ah, apparently you press F8 on the bootloader screen
17:54:08 * pikhq congratulates ehird on having priorities straight.
17:54:08 <ais523> which could be pretty tricky using GRUB, I suppose
17:54:13 <ehird> AnMaster: Also, the browsing experience is perfectly fine thankyouverymuch.
17:54:25 <ehird> Latency is big, obviously, but reddit loads snappily in fact.
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17:54:32 <ehird> So "<pause> Bing!"
17:54:40 * ehird tries speedtest.net
17:54:46 <ehird> Probably against the ToS :P
17:55:10 <ehird> It's much, much better than GPRS, anyway.
17:55:14 <ais523> next problem: how do you see your MAC address in Windows 7?
17:55:20 <ais523> (without admin access?)
17:55:24 <ehird> Download a third-party tool, I'd imagine.
17:55:49 <fizzie> It used to be something like "ipconfig /all" in the cmd.exe.
17:55:49 <ais523> then I'd have to persuade the support staff to let me run it
17:55:51 <fizzie> But I have no clue about win7.
17:57:19 <fizzie> Someone on a Windows 7 forum is saying it's still there; and you can run "cmd" from the start menu to get the shell if there's no icon there any more.
17:57:32 <ehird> 0.64Mb/s download, that's not so bad.
17:57:46 <ehird> I mean, that's perfectly acceptable for web browsing, even non-HD YouTube.
17:57:58 <ais523> gah, why can Windows terminals not be resized to more than 80 columns wide/
17:58:08 <ehird> "Upload speed: 0.05 Mbps"
17:58:20 <ehird> ais523: they can be
17:58:27 <ehird> you can't resize it bigger than it is with the resize widget
17:58:30 <ehird> you have to change the terminal settings
17:58:50 <ais523> you're right, there's a dialog box to resize the window
17:58:52 <fizzie> From what I hear, on the metropolitan area here you can sort-of count on getting one megabit (as long as the 3G modem is not completely stupid), but anything above that seems to be mostly a matter of luck.
17:58:58 <ais523> next up: surely that was harder than just letting it work?
17:59:26 <ehird> ais523: Well, programs can mess with it and such.
17:59:28 <fizzie> Console windows are a pretty special class of a window, I think.
17:59:38 <ehird> So restricting the view is easy enough, but expanding it more of a "beefy" operation.
18:00:02 <ehird> fizzie: Well, 0.64Mb/s indoors in a village with bad coverage; that's really very good.
18:00:42 <ehird> Admittedly the window is open.
18:01:07 <ais523> fizzie: "physical address" from ipconfig = MAC address?
18:01:11 <ehird> I will now proceed to be an irritating asswipe. You know, like before.
18:01:16 <fizzie> ais523: I think so, yes.
18:01:17 <ehird> Except from a more peaceful location.
18:01:29 <fizzie> And yes, around here things drop very easily from HDSPA to plain 3G to EDGE to even plain GPRS when you take a few steps off a city-class (though a Finnish "city" is not that big) area.
18:01:30 <ais523> fizzie: let's hope this works, then
18:01:35 <ehird> And, soon, with five metric fucktons more desk space!
18:01:53 <ehird> fizzie: Ever to GSM? :P
18:02:18 <fizzie> I don't think you can find a non-GPRS GSM base station anywhere any longer, but I could be wrong.
18:02:24 <fizzie> And I always write it "HDSPA" when it's "HSDPA", which is stupid, since the HS is from High-Speed.
18:02:36 <ehird> Eh, this connection is of course annoying to someone used to 8Mb/s, but it *is* just for a week or so.
18:02:48 <ehird> I mean, annoying for non-textual webpages, or textual webpages with an awful lot of cruft.
18:03:03 <AnMaster> <ehird> I mean, that's perfectly acceptable for web browsing, even non-HD YouTube. <-- what about HD youtube though?
18:03:22 <ehird> Do you think I might have answered that in the statement you quoted with that explicit qualification?
18:04:14 <AnMaster> ehird, it could mean "but I haven't yet tested HD videos"
18:04:21 <AnMaster> or "HD videos seems to not work well"
18:04:30 <ehird> I was commenting purely from the speed; obviously half a megabit is not enough to do HD YouTube.
18:05:18 <ais523> wow, Windows 7 shuts down amazingly fast from safe mode
18:05:21 <ais523> in about half a second
18:05:26 <ais523> presumably, it doesn't have anything to unload
18:05:31 <ais523> so it's just an HD sync required
18:06:34 <ehird> " You are not able to access this service because Content Control is in place.
18:06:34 <ehird> If you're 18 years or over, you can remove Content Control by contacting your mobile service provider's customer support
18:06:44 <ehird> i clicked a reddit link dude, admittedly to the same site as my carrier
18:06:56 * ehird googles "hardcore porn" to see if it's filtering everything
18:07:09 <ehird> Okay, that's allowed
18:07:47 <ehird> hahaha a proxy is blocked, ok better contact these shitfuck censors
18:10:08 <AnMaster> ehird, also you can't remove that since your are younger than 18 :P
18:10:16 <ehird> "Do a slow thing." Or, you know, just get a parental overlord(TM) to get them to remove them.
18:10:19 <AnMaster> and good luck getting your parents to do it
18:10:23 <ehird> AnMaster: MY EYES ARE 18
18:10:32 <ehird> Also, it's filtering patently non-NSFW things.
18:10:52 <AnMaster> ehird, and... how can you possibly hope to convince your parents about it
18:11:03 <AnMaster> if you do, you must have rather unusual parents.
18:11:37 <ehird> "It's blocking random links because it mistakenly thinks they're over-18 only" seems like a rather sane reason to remove an arbitrary blocking filter.
18:11:50 <ehird> I mean, if anyone actually cared they'd set up Net Nanny or whatever bullshit software is popular today.
18:11:58 <ehird> Not like the wired connection has this.
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18:16:05 <ehird_> Reopening the shitty control panel thing I killed made it all go haywire, heh. :P
18:17:15 <Ilari> You didn't know that installing any "driver CD" bundled with any device is bad idea? :-)
18:17:31 <ehird_> Ilari: Considering that it contained the *actual drivers for the modem*, I kinda think it was a good idea.
18:17:34 <ehird_> You know... on balance.
18:17:49 <ehird_> The crap is all neatly contained in one or two apps, anyway.
18:18:33 <fizzie> Ilari: Sometimes you have no choice. On Ubuntu I got the 3G stick working just fine, but on OS X it won't work with just the modem drivers; I need to run some sort of weird horribly ugly Vodafone app to init the card, feed in the SIM card PIN, then wait for the app to go all "hey, this is not a Vodafone SIM" and quit; after that I can use the standard OS X dialler to connect.
18:18:45 <ehird_> Hey, it's Vodafone and OS X for me too!
18:18:48 <AnMaster> ehird_, btw, does it work under your linux install
18:19:01 <ehird_> Ubuntu probably has an automagic thing for it.
18:19:12 <ais523> fizzie: are you actually on Vodafone?
18:19:19 <ais523> I'm not sure if saying yes or no would be funnier there
18:19:28 <fizzie> ais523: No, but Vodafone issues (at least to some customers) the same hardware.
18:19:36 <ehird_> Why would yes be funny?
18:19:44 <ais523> ehird_: Vodafone being unable to detect their own SIMs
18:19:56 <ehird_> the SIM was already in there for me
18:20:18 <ehird_> I'm a bit tired, and wasn't really paying attention, so no.
18:21:07 <fizzie> Ilari: Admittedly the equally ugly Elisa (local ISP/phone company) app/driver combination that came with the stick (directly on the stick; it pretends to be a USB memory stick before you toggle a bit to make it look like a modem) made my OS X installation unbootable, so...
18:21:52 <Ilari> fizzie: Stuff like that is why I won't trust such stuff.
18:22:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:22:20 <ehird_> Ilari: It's all very well and good not trusting it, but if you actually want to, you know, use the stick...
18:23:13 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
18:23:13 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird.
18:28:40 -!- ehird_ has joined.
18:28:52 <ehird_> Yay, no more filterationermationitation.
18:33:15 <ehird_> It's nice to have a big window behind my desk.
18:33:38 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:34:02 <Ilari> 0.05Mbps upstream? That's like 5kB/s?
18:34:21 <AnMaster> Ilari, unless he miscalculated it
18:34:28 <ehird_> AnMaster: I used speedtest.net.
18:34:38 <ehird_> Ilari: Plus, of course, 300ms ping... to the same country.
18:34:47 <Ilari> That's less than twice what analog modem could do...
18:34:59 <ehird_> Latency + slow upload is the limiting factor here; half a megabit is fine for downlloading.
18:35:13 <ehird_> AnMaster: It's called a point of comparison.
18:35:29 -!- ehird has quit (Nick collision from services.).
18:35:30 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird.
18:35:40 <ehird> Hmm, I do believe I just sent my password unencrypted there.
18:35:46 <ehird> Oh well, not like they care.
18:38:52 <AnMaster> ehird, sent password for what where?
18:39:28 <ehird> NickServ (although I admit that I use it for, well... lots of things. I'm going to start using a password generator/manager real soon now, promise!), over 3G modem.
18:39:35 <ehird> Not that I don't, you know, do that with my normal ISP all the time.
18:41:53 <AnMaster> that you use the same password in more than one place? Especially for something sent unencrypted? That you say you will start to use unique passwords "real soon, promise"? The remark about the normal ISP? There were lots of reasons. Which one it really was is up to you,
18:43:35 <ehird> I fully admit I'm ridiculously cavalier about my passwords. I'm pretty sure some other person has seen this one at some point, too.
18:45:00 * Ilari has password generator which takes service name, hashes it with MD5 and password and hashes it with SHA-256. Then it runs AES 2M times using hashed password as key and hashed service name as initial value. Then it tries to invoke some Lua code to form final password (doing another AES if conversion fails)...
18:45:35 <ehird> Oh, you mean "security by LET'S JUST RUN A THOUSAND RANDOM HASHES A BILLION TIMES RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH ULTRA-ENCRYPTED"?
18:45:41 <AnMaster> ehird, oh if I ever happen to enter a password into a chat by mistake I change it *right* away. Happened once recently right after I started using synergy.
18:45:50 <ehird> AES two million times, honestly.
18:45:52 <AnMaster> (due to being at another screen that I thought)
18:46:02 <ehird> AnMaster: I had it on a pastebin for a time! Got it removed though.
18:46:13 <Ilari> AES 2 million times (its there to waste time).
18:46:16 <ehird> It'd take many, many days to find every place I use this password and change it.
18:46:36 <AnMaster> ehird, um? does it matter? just change the passsword where it is used
18:47:11 <AnMaster> ehird, and what is your opinion on keychain apps?
18:47:24 <ehird> I guess. Eh. I don't have the brain to remember all the passwords, and post-it notes would just make me feel stupid.
18:47:28 <Ilari> Why don't windowing environments have focus lock? Application could say "no automatic focus transfer from this window".
18:47:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Keychains are wonderful.
18:47:44 <ehird> As long as they're OS-portable; pretty sure OS X's can be made to be.
18:48:23 <ehird> Anyway, my current plan is to use 1Password on OS X; it has a sleek Safari-integrated interface and all that, and can generate secure passwords with an encrypted main database. I do believe their file format is used by other things, too, or at least readable; so I'll have a backup for other OSs (where I'll just have to log in manually).
18:48:41 <ehird> Also, 1Password is available for the iPhone which means that I can still hang on to that rusty, half-broken old thing.
18:48:52 <ehird> But, you know, effort. So much of it.
18:48:56 <AnMaster> I actually just need to remember a few passphrases: keychain passphrase, login passphrase, ssh key passphrase, gpg key passphrase
18:49:01 -!- Asztal has joined.
18:49:05 <AnMaster> notice use of word passphrase, not password
18:49:24 <AnMaster> ehird, "for the iPhone which means that I can still hang on to that rusty, half-broken old thing." eh
18:49:33 <ehird> Yes, I used DiceWare to make a passphrase and I still remember it; might as well disclose it as I won't use it: swamp kayo broom balled numb
18:49:37 <oklopol> are you telling us your password has spaces?
18:49:39 <ehird> AnMaster: That particular iPhone.
18:50:00 <ehird> (I decided to not use it because "balled numb" wasn't very comfortable imagery.)
18:50:01 -!- kar8nga has joined.
18:50:29 <ehird> Anyway, with 1Password I should be able to just remember one password. OS X has fancy integrated ssh_agent stuff, so I should be able to key in autogenerated SSH passwords into it.
18:50:43 <ehird> That doesn't help with sudo on remote machines; not sure what to do there.
18:51:03 <AnMaster> ehird, also for passwords to put in keychain something more random is better. Like ebt98lKAMpVe1OktMnjjaW2U0 (just generated it using my normal generator script)
18:51:25 <ehird> 1Password has a whole page to configure every type of password imaginable to satisfy any pedantic web form.
18:51:34 <AnMaster> ehird, and yes sudo on remote machines is tricky
18:51:34 <ehird> (Window page that is.)
18:52:34 <AnMaster> ehird, and of course I use ssh_agent too, due to not wanting to type it *every* time. (especially irritating when pushing/pulling with some VCS over ssh)
18:53:07 <AnMaster> plus, I wouldn't use ssh by password
18:53:08 <ehird> Yes, but does your OS do THIS with ssh-agent?
18:53:09 <ehird> http://www.dribin.org/dave/resources/pictures/ssh_leopard_dialog.png
18:53:11 <ehird> That is, built-in.
18:53:21 <ehird> To the operating system.
18:53:34 <ehird> Comes with its ssh-agent.
18:53:45 <ehird> Well, yes, probably. :P
18:53:58 <ehird> Well, that's the useful part, really.
18:54:05 <ehird> Ubuntu and OS X are good at whole-system integration; other OSs tend not to be.
18:54:17 <AnMaster> ehird, actually the way it works it is remembered until you log off
18:54:26 <ehird> That's rather arbitrary.
18:54:37 <AnMaster> ehird, probably a setting somewhere
18:54:44 <AnMaster> anyway I would prefer it to auto lock after a few minutes
18:54:50 <AnMaster> would be better on laptop especially
18:55:21 <ehird> Anyway, post-1Password I should only have to change a few passwords in the case of a leak, and they'll all have the same contents: machine passwords, 1Password master password, ...can't think of anything else.
18:56:57 <AnMaster> ehird, hm? can't think of more than one master password?
18:57:15 <ehird> The machine password = the 1Password master password, since there's no point remembering two.
18:57:34 <AnMaster> ehird, what is wrong with the built in key chain in OS X though
18:57:41 <AnMaster> and does 1Password work under linux?
18:57:57 <ehird> 1Password doesn't work on Linux, but I'm pretty sure other managers can read its file type.
18:57:58 <AnMaster> what with planning to change to linux and so on
18:58:06 <ehird> (Not sure about that)
18:58:48 <AnMaster> ehird, try that 3G modem under ubuntu. If it doesn't work I will be extremely surprised
18:58:51 <ehird> OS X's keychain can't generate passwords in a right-click-and-hit-1Password, and with a few clicks get a password tailored directly to that website's whims; then save it and let me click the 1P toolbar button on the website any time to log in; it can't sync to the iPhone, etc.
18:58:53 <coppro> There exist other password management systems that can be used on Linux, subject to the ever-present caveat that applications hate each other
18:58:56 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, it probably will work.
18:59:11 <AnMaster> ehird, it will likely work flawlessly
18:59:21 <ehird> AnMaster: Are you evangelising Linux? :P
18:59:26 <AnMaster> ehird, it seems it didn't under OS X?
18:59:39 <ehird> coppro: Yeah; I'm pretty sure 1Password will have an export function that they like.
18:59:56 <ehird> AnMaster: Ubuntu is perfectly fine; it has some deficiencies which OS X does not and vice-versa.
19:00:00 <AnMaster> I'm just pointing out how much better that piece of hardware is likely to work
19:00:20 <AnMaster> ehird, like sucky colour management
19:00:30 <AnMaster> colorsync is wonderful whatever else you think about OS X
19:00:30 <ehird> Yees, not quite what I was thinking, but sure :P
19:00:49 <AnMaster> ehird, I imagined it wouldn't be
19:00:51 <ehird> An important point is that while GNOME is wonderful, there isn't much usable third-party software beyond that.
19:00:57 <ehird> Most of it's rather more crufty.
19:01:14 <ehird> See GNOME's definition.
19:01:27 <ehird> Whereas with OS X, sure there's a load of crap, but there is a large base of applications that are like OS X.
19:01:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Probably. Read the HIG; that's what's usable according to GNOME.
19:01:37 <coppro> ehird: can you please do me a favor and forward me the most recent Herald and Grand Poobah card reports? My copies appear to have vanished
19:01:45 <AnMaster> ehird, is that along the lines of "if at all possible dumb down the software instead of adding a setting"
19:02:05 <ehird> AnMaster: No, but have fun with your stereotypes.
19:02:07 <ehird> coppro: sure, in a min
19:02:41 <fizzie> That's probably the "Keep It Simple and Pretty" principle, after AnMaster-interpretation.
19:02:47 <AnMaster> ehird, will you drop that 3G modem once you get land line?
19:03:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes. Would get a contract for laptop use.
19:03:13 <ehird> fizzie: The whole thing is focused on simplicity and learnability.
19:03:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, actually the gnome terminal is *more* usable than konsole in KDE 4 apart from irritating that tab bar isn't always visible
19:03:24 <ehird> Which, in practice, translates to long-term usability.
19:03:48 <ehird> I think third-party OS X developers are better at it than Apple is, tbh.
19:04:41 <ehird> (http://www.flyingmeat.com/acorn/ ;; incidentally, could this be the first photoshop-style application with a sane interface? It also has a fun "layered screenshot" feature, so you can move about windows and stuff.)
19:04:45 <AnMaster> ehird, I think the best apps are those that do not have steep learning curves but still offer lots of flexibility. Basically you can use a subset just fine, then you find a new feature, and wonder how you managed without it before.
19:05:20 <ehird> AnMaster: That's a wonderfully lofty goal, but cannot work in practice.
19:05:38 <Ilari> KDE4 annoyances: No KDE3-style run dialog as popup bindable to keystroke or as plasmoid. No way to configure RSS plasmoid to show what feed each item is from.
19:05:41 <ehird> Every new setting doubles the possible configurations, doubles the cognitive overhead of the configuring user; it is impossible to "hide" a preference so that it does not bother someone configuring the application.
19:05:48 <AnMaster> ehird, because I can think of some examples
19:06:03 <ehird> The double possible configurations makes maintenance difficult, leads to bitrot...
19:06:33 <AnMaster> ehird, and as I said, there are (IMO) a few good examples on it
19:06:46 <ehird> Basically, the effort of maintenance is large for every option; the cognitive load for the user is non-negligible (whatever you may think); and more.
19:06:51 <ehird> AnMaster: "Test suite" is a non-sequitur in ansewr.
19:07:02 <AnMaster> ehird, no it isn't. Because the app I'm thinking about is bash.
19:07:13 <ehird> But I'm not interested in discussing further; I know your opinion and I know that it's misguided, not backed up by the results, and without supporting logic.
19:07:29 <ehird> And I have researched this extensively, as it is one of my main fields of interest.
19:07:31 <AnMaster> you can manage fine with a subset. Yet when you learn more advanced features, you wonder how you managed without those before.
19:07:44 <AnMaster> ehird, so you claim it isn't true for programming languages then?
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19:07:52 <AnMaster> which is after all just a sort of program
19:08:26 <ehird> I'm not interested in continuing this conversation because I've had it at least fifty times with you and it always ends the same way; I have less boring things to do.
19:08:30 <ehird> Of course like always you'll ignore that statement...
19:09:12 <ehird> You'd be bsmntbombdood if not for the additional .
19:09:18 <AnMaster> just saying that you are a turd would do well enough
19:10:27 <ehird> So after age 18 does your maturity start devolving or something into petty insults within a year or so?
19:10:32 <ehird> Curious. Nobody ever told me.
19:10:53 <ehird> I'd respond with something equally juvenile, but at least I have the weak excuse of being 14.
19:11:28 <AnMaster> actually that was a mistranslation. /me looks for the right insult
19:11:43 <ehird> Well, you've reached a new low.
19:11:50 <ehird> Possibly enough of a low to cause this channel to reach a new low.
19:14:14 <ehird> I wonder if your mind actually has a distinction between rational argument and ad hominem. I suppose not, as you're always the first one to cross that line.
19:14:24 <ehird> Not a Finish line, but perhaps a Swedish line.
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19:35:27 <zzo38> I don't know completely about output of different program language. Some allow only numbers, and some have some characters prohibited in output. Maybe, you could make a quine with numbers
19:38:57 <ehird> 23:48:41 <ehird> 21:25:25 <zzo38> I know why many people don't like GPL, it is because GNU GPL is very communist.
19:38:58 <ehird> 23:48:42 <ehird> (a) totally wrong, it is not communist
19:38:58 <ehird> 23:48:42 <ehird> (b) I dislike the GPL for entirely different reasons, TYVM
19:38:59 <ehird> 23:48:59 <coppro> there shouldn't be anything theoretically requiring tc languages to have quines... but hmm
19:38:59 <ehird> 23:49:15 <ehird> 21:30:09 <zzo38> Now you can see, how, maintaining a GPL'd project is not too difficult, here is a forked project so you can see by example: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/mzx_extended/
19:39:00 <ehird> 23:49:15 <ehird> Nobody ever said it was difficult; people have philosophical objections to doing such a thing, howeveer.
19:39:03 <ehird> 23:49:17 <ehird> *however
19:40:18 <zzo38> O. What kind of philosophical objects did you have, anyways? Sometimes it is difficult, specifically, if the program doesn't work.
19:41:31 <ehird> I disagree with the GPL's viral nature, its overcomplexity, and the fact that it relies on a UNIX-type system to make terms like "linking" meaningful, which is shaky and not a good thing to have in a license.
19:42:10 <zzo38> Well, yes, there are a few problems with that, sometimes it is hard to completely understand in some cases.
19:42:37 <ehird> So when possible I favour contributing to and using similarly good BSD or MIT-licensed software.
19:42:46 <ehird> This is unfortunately rare, as the GPL is overwhelmingly common.
19:42:52 <zzo38> However, I don't use the GNU GPL in cases where those would probably be a problem. The megazeux.4th is public domain for this reason.
19:42:55 <ehird> But I'd use yasm over the other nasm clones.
19:43:08 <ehird> zzo38: The first two points always stand, even if the third doesn't.
19:43:57 <zzo38> Yes, it is complex. However, I think they made it this way to deal with some problems of before.
19:44:08 <zzo38> If there is a simpler way, they could try to figure something out.
19:44:43 <ehird> It's always going to be conceptually more complex compared to BSD, MIT or a null-license (basically public domain spelled out).
19:44:54 <ehird> And the first objection applies no matter how much they simplify it.
19:44:56 <zzo38> Well, yes, of course.
19:45:18 <ehird> But yeah, I don't disliike the GPL because it's communist. I don't really think it's communist at all.
19:45:24 <ehird> There's no wealth redistribution or anything.
19:45:29 <zzo38> And it is viral. But I happen to like it this way (however it might be a bit too much viral?)
19:45:29 <ehird> Even if we consider code=wealth.
19:46:56 <ehird> Yes, viral is just a matter of philosophy. I've concluded that it doesn't really help, and even if it did the detrimental effects outweigh it.
19:47:07 <coppro> I'll choose if I want a viral license or not depending on the circumstances
19:47:27 <zzo38> That's fine. But I also choose what I want depending on circumstances too, of course.
19:47:48 <zzo38> Some programs have multiple licenses you can select from.
19:47:56 <zzo38> For example, the Mozilla tri-license.
19:48:34 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:48:52 <zzo38> There's also the Conkeror tri-license, which is the same as the Mozilla tri-license except that it doesn't say "or later version" explicitly. However, I think "or later version" of GPL and LGPL is implied because of the text of the LGPL.
19:48:58 <ehird> I couldn't really use a viral license without being a hypocrite, since I support the abolition of copyright. I guess MIT and BSD technically add restrictions too, but it's better than rolling your own pseudo-public-domain license.
19:49:52 <zzo38> Any new files added in Vonkeror, I have put GNU GPL v3, with an exception allowing the "workers of Conkeror" to select the old license instead.
19:51:06 <ehird> I don't think workers of Conkeror is defined enough for that to work in any way. (Also, that doesn't count as open source.)
19:51:10 <zzo38> To me, using a viral license is not that hypocrite, because it is that way simply because of copyright working, otherwise someone else can copyright it too much differently. If copyright becomes abolished I don't have any objection if viral licenses stop working because of it.
19:51:23 <ehird> Why? Quoth the OSI:
19:51:24 <ehird> 5. No Discrimination Against Persons or Groups
19:51:25 <ehird> The license must not discriminate against any person or group of persons.
19:51:52 <ehird> So Vonkeror isn't actually Open Source. In fact, it couldn't be included in Debian.
19:52:08 <zzo38> It *does* allow this exception to be removed, however.
19:52:11 <ehird> (So not Ubuntu either.)
19:52:14 <zzo38> Just like any other exception
19:52:39 <zzo38> So therefore it can be made open-source with one change, by anyone who wants it to be as such.
19:52:48 <ehird> How can they remove it, though?
19:53:32 <zzo38> It seems sort of like, how someone says, they don't want to stop smoking, but they want to want to stop smoking, it just seems a bit similar logic a little bit?
19:53:35 <coppro> it's in the text of the GPL, ehird
19:53:44 <zzo38> You can remove it simply by removing that line of the text.
19:53:50 <coppro> you can add exceptions, but they can be removed by subsequent redistributors
19:53:59 <ehird> That seems ridiculous.
19:54:06 <ehird> I could publish my own Vonkeror without the restrictions and no changed code.
19:54:12 <ehird> Oops, zzo38's restrictions are now useless.
19:54:16 <zzo38> You can't add exception except in some cases.
19:54:19 <ehird> So why bother making them in the first place?
19:54:50 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:54:59 <zzo38> No, you can remove the exception and license it under the GNU GPL v3, or ask the workers of Conkeror for permission and remove the exception and license under the Conkeror tri-license.
19:55:47 <ehird> I don't think that was under any doubt :P
19:57:23 <oerjan> * oklokok is tempted to say "DON'T YOU MEAN UNDERLOAD, MADBRAIN", but it would make no sense because madbrain isn't oerjan.
19:57:32 <oerjan> indeed that would be *MAD*
19:57:41 * ehird swats oerjan --------###
19:57:48 <ehird> I stole it while you were away.
19:57:55 * ehird sets up anti-stealing forcefield
19:57:58 <oerjan> no you didn't, that's another one
19:58:04 * ehird sets up anti-swatting forcefield
19:58:06 <oerjan> you're just trying to fool me
19:58:14 <ehird> It works for swatting.
19:58:30 <oerjan> alas. but don't you be too safe. SCIENCE MARCHES ON
19:58:54 * ehird swats oerjan --------###
19:59:12 <oerjan> i know, it's addictive
20:07:19 * ehird swats oerjan --------###
20:07:31 <ehird> i think mine was laced with heroin
20:07:42 <ehird> never buy fly swatters on the black market
20:07:45 <zzo38> Now I don't quite know why I set my F2 macro in IRC as :^ZDATA ^C CCUDI1 :# Appears as Jordan^M
20:07:59 <ehird> I can think of 0 reasons.
20:08:03 <zzo38> My F1 macro is set to :^ZUSER zzo38 0 0 zzo38^MNICK zzo38^M and that does make sense, however.
20:09:13 <zzo38> So, after connecting I can type in the password if required, and then push F1 and it will then start! It is much more quickly than the old way.
20:09:45 <oerjan> ehird: swatters should be bought in strange little shops that weren't there the previous day and aren't there later and have strangely exotic-looking shopkeepers.
20:10:08 <oerjan> i don't know if they're part of the black market or not.
20:10:37 * ehird swats oerjan --------###
20:10:48 <oerjan> i think that's just an afghani model
20:10:56 <zzo38> Apparently some IRC clients will not mask the password. Which ones are they, and maybe you should correct it?
20:11:15 <zzo38> At least this one does mask the password.
20:11:32 <ehird> oerjan: could you point me to one of these temporal shops.
20:11:48 <oerjan> you're probably supporting the taliban with it.
20:12:02 <zzo38> A note someone posted on a message board, I have seen: "I'm not a complete idiot - some parts are still missing."
20:12:04 <oerjan> um, no, because, you see, they've disappeared, you see?
20:12:24 <ehird> oerjan: joke, you see.
20:12:42 <ehird> found one, turns out this room is actually one
20:12:49 <ehird> a little frog is serving me
20:12:54 <ehird> ...or is this just the heroin...
20:13:02 <ehird> (ok ok so heroin wouldn't do that, but CONTINUITY man)
20:14:11 <oerjan> continuity is just a bigger fish
20:20:40 <ehird> " internet origination theories ": a discourse
20:22:07 <oerjan> the cia got the internet at roswell
20:22:37 <oerjan> and then slowly leaked it out to the military
20:28:30 <ehird> yeah just like an ethernet cable dangling from space
20:29:44 <ehird> coppro: what reports do you need?
20:29:50 <zzo38> Pushing F2 just results in a unknown command message.
20:29:55 <coppro> ehird: Herald's and Bob's Grand Poobah
20:30:06 <ehird> coppro: (you know there are online archives right btw?)
20:30:09 <zzo38> F1 results in please register only once per session
20:30:16 <coppro> ehird: yes, but I keep local copies on my laptop
20:30:24 <zzo38> But that's correct
20:30:25 <coppro> and emailing myself a faked email is too much effort
20:30:32 <zzo38> It is supposed to do that.
20:30:43 <oerjan> ehird: ok that's just because they haven't leaked the ftl communication antennas yet, they cannot find a way to make it seem non-suspicious
20:30:53 <oerjan> so they had to use cables instead
20:31:01 <zzo38> But now it means you have to disconnect to try again, and sometimes it is not necessarily how you want, especially if you want to add a password in, too.
20:31:04 <ehird> i like the idea of the whole internet being based on the one ethernet cable dangling from space
20:31:08 <ehird> still connected to a router
20:31:15 <zzo38> PASS results in the same message.
20:31:25 <ehird> it just goes up and never stops!
20:31:26 <oerjan> that's just rubbish, ehird
20:31:27 <zzo38> So, if I forget to type the password I have to try again
20:31:44 <fizzie> "# Appears as Jordan" looks very comic-chat-ish.
20:31:45 -!- zzo38 has quit ("HOW TO QUIT").
20:32:31 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:32:44 <oerjan> also an ethernet cable dangling from space would be more useful as a space elevator
20:33:52 <ehird> anyway, the other end is actually inside a black hole.
20:34:21 <zzo38> And a Google search doesn't help to make a list of which IRC clients don't mask the password. Although other people have told me that some don't mask the password. But it seems to me the only reason the password should be not masked if you use netcat. Any proper IRC client should mask the password? Apparently some don't. Help me figure out which ones because I don't know
20:34:37 <zzo38> I read some article that says some people think there might not be any black holes
20:35:00 <zzo38> I forget which article
20:35:09 <coppro> ehird: btw, you never notified c-walker you were joining the zooping contract, apparently. You now need to also notify comex to join
20:35:13 <oerjan> zzo38: i'm sure there are lots of them
20:35:22 <ehird> coppro: nobody told me
20:35:31 <coppro> ehird: it's in the contract
20:35:35 <oerjan> they weren't exactly swiftly accepted to start with
20:35:36 <ehird> and i don't know how to contact c-walker, gimme email
20:35:40 <coppro> you must notify all parties; I told you c-walker was a party
20:35:44 <coppro> e's online with the nick "c-walker
20:36:19 <ehird> [20:36] ehird: i am joining/have joined the bobzooping contract; this is the notification i have to give to you to join
20:36:29 <coppro> ehird: ok. Did you tell comex_ too?
20:37:04 * oerjan realizes is second previous comment is ambiguous; it refers to the black hole doubting
20:37:12 <ehird> thanks for the opportunity to say "toodles" on irc
20:38:02 <fungot> toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles toodles tood ...too much output!
20:44:01 <zzo38> Next time they have to draw your blood in the hospital or doctor office or in a operation, you will be forced to play mahjong and if you lose too many points then you will lose too much blood too and you will be dead
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20:57:18 <AnMaster> (that is supposed to stand for the cycle of the day or something metaphorical...)
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21:09:53 <madbr> I finished my brainfuck interpreter http://esolangs.org/wiki/Univar#Brainfuck_interpreter
21:11:07 <oerjan> now you are _officially_ mad ;)
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21:33:47 <Ilari> madbr: Now quine (guaranteed to exist by being TC with unrestricted output). :->
21:36:23 <FireFly> madbr, noticed that earlier today, looks nice
21:36:39 <FireFly> I'm starting to like that language
21:37:08 <Ilari> madbr: Or even crazier: self-SHA-256... :->
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21:57:02 <madbr> dunno how to write a quine
21:58:11 <Ilari> madbr: Probably quite nasty in language like that as it doesn't have any good way to represent data.
22:20:49 <madbr> ilari: well, you can represent data
22:21:07 <madbr> something like &(<,)&(<,)&(<,)&(<,)&(<,)
22:21:33 <madbr> ...&(<,)&(>,)&(>,)&(>,)&(>,)...&(>,)()
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22:31:18 <madbr> ilari: and various other similar representations made up of trees of functions
22:46:24 <Ilari> madbr: No good way to represent data. Sure, everything TC can always represent data somehow.
22:46:58 <Ilari> Heh... Lua quine I wrote ran correctly on first attempt that did syntax-check.
23:25:12 <madbr> you know what would be cool? an esoteric video game system
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23:26:46 <SimonRC> most esolangs are a bugger to write efficient code it
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