00:00:17 <oerjan> the scramble is obviously the language with equal number of a's, b's and c's
00:00:40 <oerjan> _but_ that is not regular
00:00:59 <fizzie> Yes, well, it's not supposed to be regular.
00:01:19 <fizzie> You're just supposed to show that scramble(L) is context-free.
00:01:19 <oerjan> but yours is linear, iirc
00:01:38 <fizzie> To get a regular grammar, you need to be left-linear or right-linear.
00:01:48 <fizzie> If you mix both styles, you don't get a necessarily regular language.
00:02:01 <oerjan> anyway your modification then means you have to add a, b, c in sequence, but you can add them either in front or after
00:02:29 <fizzie> That sounds a more likely counter-argument.
00:02:45 <oerjan> now need a counterexample string of that kind
00:03:05 <oerjan> a string with equal no. abc which is not of that kind
00:03:28 <fizzie> So, something which doesn't parse with S -> Ta | aT | empty, T -> Ub | bU, U -> Sc | cS.
00:04:24 <oerjan> you have to add the c last, but then you have nowhere to add b second last
00:05:02 <oerjan> or wait that's inside out
00:05:16 <oerjan> acbbac, reverse argument
00:05:39 <oerjan> heck even anything without a's at the ends
00:05:41 <fizzie> "cab" is enough, right? The three can only start with "S -> Ta" or "S -> aT"; with "S -> Ta", you'd have to add that b before the a; but you can't start with "S -> aT" because that should really start with a.
00:07:06 <fizzie> In other words, you can't get all permutations simply by reordering leaves in the parse tree.
00:07:15 <fizzie> Er, s/leaves/children/
00:07:16 <oerjan> and this shows even S -> Ta | empty, T -> Ub will fail with baab
00:08:25 <fizzie> T -> Sb, you mean? Or something else?
00:10:02 <oerjan> so now i'm wondering about oklopol's supposedly trivial solution :D
00:11:39 <fizzie> I'm wondering about that too; I did try to "think in terms of automatons", but it wasn't at least immediately trivial how to recognize with a nondeterministic pushdown automaton anything that's a permutation of a word recognized by a finite state automaton.
00:16:10 <oerjan> in fact i'm not immediate sure about that abc language...
00:16:19 <oerjan> (just ab seems simple though)
00:17:22 <fizzie> I seem to remember that a^n b^n c^n was used as an example of a non-context-free language.
00:17:40 <oerjan> yes me too, but the scramble _might_ make it easier
00:27:14 <fizzie> Hrm, well, let's look at the a^n b^n c^n proof in the scrambled light. If that "equal number of a's, b's and c's" is context-free, it obeys the context-free pumping lemma with some length "p". We can still look at the a^p b^p c^p string (which is in the language), and that can be written in the s=uvxyz form with the length limits, and so on, and so on, and the pumping will generate an unequal number of letters, which will take that example out of the language.
00:27:55 <AnMaster> Any sufficiently advanced mathematics is indistinguishable from nonsense.
00:28:11 <oerjan> i just realized. the _intersection_ of a regular and a context-free language is context-free, right?
00:28:43 <oerjan> and a^nb^bc^n is the intersection of its scramble with a^k b^l c^m
00:28:50 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:29:07 <oerjan> so the scramble cannot possibly be context-free
00:29:55 <fizzie> Also from the pumping lemma proof. After all, it's enough to find at least one string in the language that can't be pumped, and in that particular case the a^n b^n c^n string qualifies, since the pumping will create an unequal number of letters in there.
00:30:27 <fizzie> All this makes me wonder even more about oklopol's trivial solution.
00:31:22 <oerjan> poor oklopol. or possibly poor teacher, if (s)he gave an exercise that is false
00:31:56 <fizzie> The exercise might've been "prove whether" instead of "prove that"
00:32:35 <fizzie> There's a related sort of a question in http://coding.derkeiler.com/Archive/General/comp.theory/2007-01/msg00249.html
00:32:50 <oerjan> oklopol: read above discussion ^
00:33:03 <fizzie> (There's the scramble of a regular language of a two-symbol alphabet that's being proved to be context-free.)
00:34:09 <fizzie> And it is sort of implied that something else happens when there are more symbols.
00:36:50 <fizzie> I'm not sure whether I have that Sipser book it's from. I think I never actually went and got it, even though it was probably mentioned as a possibly-good-to-read book on the theoretical computer science basics course.
00:48:09 -!- ehird has joined.
00:50:47 <ehird> 02:40:31 <oklopol> so i hear there was a course in lojban in helsinki uni
00:50:47 <ehird> 02:41:10 <oklopol> (with my ears)
00:51:42 <ehird> also is it university of helsinki or the helsinki university of technology
00:52:18 <oerjan> ehird: you're awake ALREADY/STILL?
00:52:43 <ehird> I slept for 15 hours, dude
00:53:08 <ehird> Damn that was some high-quality sleep.
00:53:09 <oerjan> i must have misrembered seeing you last time i logged on then
00:53:32 <ehird> ~6:30 am yesterday I slept.
00:53:43 <ehird> My client probably disconnected, as I turned off my computer.
00:53:46 <ehird> (It won't sleep for some reason.)
00:54:32 <ehird> 03:13:42 <oklopol> huh, there's an unlambda reference in the homework
00:54:33 <ehird> 03:14:15 <oklopol> "aSS" couldn't possibly be a coincidence
00:55:06 <ehird> 09:06:13 <oerjan> 03:13:42 <oklopol> huh, there's an unlambda reference in the homework
00:55:06 <ehird> 09:06:14 <oerjan> 03:14:15 <oklopol> "aSS" couldn't possibly be a coincidence
00:55:06 <ehird> 09:06:21 <oerjan> underload, oklopol. underload.
00:56:02 <ehird> 12:43:42 <SimonRC> from what I have heard, if computer programs were written the way programmers were promoted, there would be no such thing as an OS or a dynamically-shared library
00:56:02 <ehird> those are both good things, but not in the way you mean :P
00:56:37 -!- coppro has joined.
01:00:24 <fizzie> I would guess UH, not HUT; it sounds more something like they'd do.
01:01:32 <ehird> I wonder what it was about
01:01:37 <ehird> I hope something totally unrelated
01:02:10 <ehird> fizzie: like, I'm assuming in lojban means
01:02:15 <ehird> not just about lojban
01:04:50 <fizzie> It's organized by "Lambda ry" (where "ry" is our suffix for "registered organization"), sponsored by the cognitive science department; and the name of the course is "Practical Lojban for Travellers".
01:05:52 <ehird> fizzie: if you travel to lojbania i guess?
01:06:19 <fizzie> Also Lambda ry seems to be originated by atehwa at sange.fi, or something.
01:06:25 <ehird> fizzie: so, UH then?
01:06:28 <oerjan> lojbanania, ruled by the horrible lojunta
01:07:16 <fizzie> oerjan: The esolang mailing list guy, I think.
01:07:31 <fizzie> At least at that time when it was hosted at sange.fi.
01:07:51 <fizzie> I don't really remember the history, but at least "involved with".
01:09:17 <fizzie> "Lambda is a Helsinki University student organisation for students interested in theoretical computer science, mathematics, cognitive science, linguistics, language technology and philosophy, and the grey areas between these subjects. For example, logic, formal languages, computability and programming language theory are all subjects interesting to Lambda. While Lambda was founded largely by computer science theorists, the organisation aims for cross-scientif
01:09:17 <fizzie> ic cooperation across different faculties and departments."
01:09:44 <ehird> the list IS hosted at sange.fi, isn't it
01:09:48 <ehird> and the dormant list
01:10:04 <fizzie> Yes, I guess it technically speaking still is.
01:10:49 <ehird> just nobody posts, not even spambots
01:10:59 <ehird> me and simonrc posted last year... got responses
01:11:04 <ehird> someone should start using it
01:11:21 * oerjan is technically subscribed he thinks
01:11:24 <fizzie> Lambda have five courses; introduction to lambda calculus, introduction to functional programming, the practical Lojban thing, practical Haskell, and formal type theory. Quite a grouping.
01:11:32 <fizzie> I don't remember which address I had subscribed there.
01:12:24 <fizzie> My iki address seems to be there in the archives, and I don't remember unsubscribing, but who knows.
01:12:38 <ehird> only one way to find out
01:12:48 <ehird> time to search my mail to see which list still works
01:13:35 <fizzie> Seems to be a bit of spam there in the archives.
01:13:52 <fizzie> Not very large amounts, but still.
01:15:23 <ehird> fizzie: Checkmate your email!
01:16:16 <fizzie> I don't see anything. It's possible I've been auto-unsubscribidized during some sort of email address breakdown time. It is the shame.
01:16:59 <fizzie> Nothing there either. Though the iki forwarding lags sometimes.
01:17:04 <ehird> sci@esoteric.sange.fi (science), misc@esoteric.sange.fi (offtopic stuff; "All messages to lang@esoteric.sange.fi get propagated to this list.") and lang@esoteric.sange.fi (esolangs!) should still work.
01:17:13 <ehird> List context changed to 'chat' by following command.
01:17:14 <ehird> Unable to generate subscription cookie!
01:17:14 <ehird> Unable to process request due to filesystem error.
01:17:22 <ehird> chat@ no longer exists.
01:17:38 <ehird> fizzie: I said it right after sending.
01:17:46 <ehird> Either the lists are dead, you're not subscribed, or something is lagging.
01:18:18 <fizzie> Wait, now it is there.
01:18:22 <ehird> fizzie: "With the powerful force of an email client and mailing list archives...", July 2008. Somewhere in your email/spam archives?
01:18:33 <ehird> If it's there, there's a good chance you're still subscribed to a working list.
01:18:48 <fizzie> "This actually has a purpose, albeit a minor, inconsequential one."
01:19:04 <ehird> You're subscribed to a working list
01:19:32 <fizzie> There are 11 "Received:" headers; that's quite a lot of hoops to jump through.
01:20:23 <ehird> Three people responded to my in July 08, so there's a good chance they'll go all "rabble rabble, your last message was archeology, this is spam".
01:20:39 <Sgeo> Can I use metamail in a script to automatically download an attachment from a certain person?
01:20:41 <ehird> oerjan: did you receive anything?
01:20:46 <Sgeo> Not asking how, I'm asking "is it possible"
01:22:03 * Sgeo feels dirty inside, for treating what should be text as html, just to prevent the browser from trying to download it and open it in notepad
01:25:00 <oerjan> ehird: when i said i was technically subscribed, i didn't mean i actually received mail
01:25:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
01:25:44 <ehird> your... spam... folder
01:25:49 <ehird> where... spam... is filtered
01:26:00 <ehird> sure you do, otherwise your inbox would be totally useless
01:26:00 <oerjan> there is not enough that i bother filtering it
01:26:19 <oerjan> it is however filtered by nvg somewhat i guess
01:27:25 <oerjan> but afaik what's filtered does not end up anywhere else
01:27:37 <oerjan> some is only marked with Spam in the subject though
01:29:23 <oerjan> nah no spam folder i haven't discovered yet
01:29:45 <oerjan> (there's one where i once upon a time saved spam manually after complaining about it)
01:32:35 <oerjan> also, by "i didn't mean i actually received mail" i meant that if i am subscribed, it's in some kind of send nothing mode
01:32:52 <oerjan> but i'm not sure if that list is one of those
01:33:15 <ehird> well email to misc@esoteric.sange.fi and find out!
01:33:16 <oerjan> the agora lists are, though
01:33:26 <ehird> you're actually subscribed to them?
01:33:33 <ehird> i don't think they have a don't-email-me mode
01:33:48 <ehird> oerjan: oh, are you not on the new agoranomic.org addresses?
01:33:52 <ehird> you'll be subscribed to yoyo
01:34:03 <ehird> presumably you haven't subscribed to any since you left
01:34:32 <oerjan> i regularly get Subject: agoranomic.org mailing list memberships reminder
01:34:44 <oerjan> on mailman reminder day
01:37:03 <oerjan> hm seems i actually unsubscribed from esolang
01:38:32 <ehird> clarkk is indeed agora's home
01:38:37 <oerjan> i'm also subscribed to yoyo of course, and even receive mail on that i think
01:38:49 <ehird> ah, so you get emails whenever the lists are down?
01:38:56 <ehird> so a month or so ago, sometime last year...
01:39:02 <ehird> a glimpse into the game!
01:39:40 <oerjan> not sure about tue, it doesn't remind me at least
01:39:59 <ehird> that's our other backup list, so even your glimpses are incomplete
01:40:14 * Sgeo has another page of quotes
01:40:17 <ehird> oerjan: so wait, when you left, email just kept rolling into your inbox for years? :D
01:40:17 <oerjan> oh i probably receive those too, i'm just not entirely sure
01:40:27 <Sgeo> Some nsfw material: http://normish.org/sgeo/pullet.htm
01:40:33 <ehird> oerjan: (presumably you're too low-tech to use filters and folders)
01:40:39 <ehird> oerjan: i'm not sure tue reminds, inded
01:40:45 <oerjan> i have folders to save manually to
01:41:05 <ehird> you moved bunches of messages into folders for years?
01:41:17 <oerjan> after i read them, yes
01:41:23 <oerjan> if i don't delete them
01:41:28 <ehird> Sgeo: got bored at like 5, where i realised that all future Aerik quotes would be worthless
01:41:40 <ehird> oerjan: i meant from ag ora
01:41:51 <Sgeo> ehird, there's more than aerik
01:42:00 <oerjan> ehird: for some years yes, not after the last time i left though
01:42:01 <ehird> not worht trawling through teh crap
01:42:12 <Sgeo> I'm in there a few times
01:42:21 <ehird> oerjan: what then, a filter? or did you resubscribe, or just ignore them, or had we moved by then
01:42:27 <oerjan> i _did_ set the non-backup lists to not send me mail then
01:43:05 <ehird> oerjan: so what, did you come back in that ~2000 resurgence or something? i'm not actually sure how long the agoranomic.org lists go back
01:43:15 <ehird> but the registrar just notes you as leaving in 95... or was it 97
01:43:21 <oerjan> sometime like that yes
01:43:39 <ehird> well, you might be listed again later
01:43:44 <ehird> it lists you as disappearing, iirc
01:43:45 <oerjan> i definitely returned somewhere around 2000
01:43:47 <ehird> as opposed to actually leaving in a huff
01:43:58 <ehird> or leaving because of Responsibilities(TM)
01:44:36 <ehird> Oerjan <unknown> 3 Jan 96
01:44:38 <ehird> ok, no reason given
01:44:48 <ehird> Oerjan (Zombie 20 Sep 99 - 25 Dec 99) Apr 96 22 Mar 00
01:44:58 <ehird> oh, and before all that
01:44:58 <ehird> Oerjan Sep 95 Dec 95
01:45:07 <ehird> a Oerjan oerjan@nvg.ntnu.no 15 Jul 00 14 Nov 04
01:45:20 <oerjan> yeah that would be the last time
01:45:33 <ehird> doesn't say when you abandoned iit
01:45:37 <ehird> presumably nearer 2000 than 2004
01:46:25 <oerjan> that unknown should be some time in autumn 93
01:46:28 <ehird> well, the other leavings are three months, less than one year and 3 years
01:46:40 <ehird> all of them are unknown apart from the a
01:46:47 <ehird> i guess we didn't record them in 93
01:47:02 <ehird> (leavings = how long you stayed before leaving)
01:47:12 <ehird> although the 3 years is actually 3 months
01:48:00 <ehird> oerjan: so in conclusion, apart from the 2000-2004, you played the gamme for three months, less than one year and 3 months
01:48:06 <ehird> unless the former means inactivated
01:48:12 <ehird> and the latter is deregistrated
01:48:19 <ehird> because the times are quite short
01:48:22 -!- madbrain has joined.
01:48:27 <ehird> that format is oooooooold
01:48:38 <ehird> and without labelling of the columns
01:48:44 <madbrain> yay wrote an interpreter for my newest obfuscated language in Lua
01:48:53 <ehird> i'm trying to decipher the report, and failing
01:48:54 <madbrain> ( http://esolangs.org/wiki/Univar )
01:49:10 <ehird> we started recording registrations in 94
01:49:24 <ehird> first deregistration 12 sep 94, and no others til 1995
01:49:27 <ehird> where there's a lot
01:49:29 <oerjan> oh wait that unknown cannot be 93 of course, since there's another period before it
01:49:32 <madbrain> (the interpreter can run in http://www.lua.org/cgi-bin/demo )
01:50:03 <oerjan> there's definitely a period earlier than 95 too, since i registered in 93
01:50:09 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
01:50:19 <ehird> oerjan: basically what i'm saying is, yoyo is quite accurate, because you never stayed more than three months or so, at least in 95 or earlier
01:50:34 <ehird> and the 2000-2004 thing I guessed didn't actually last that long, based on available statistics
01:50:48 -!- zzo38 has joined.
01:51:11 <ehird> Sgeo: that quotes file is really crap
01:51:26 <Sgeo> ehird, the quotes, or something else?
01:52:50 <oerjan> ehird: you are misreading the one with zombie in it
01:53:01 <ehird> ok, apart from that one
01:53:19 -!- puzzlet has joined.
01:53:19 <ehird> oerjan: if you left in a huff in the non-abandoned ones, i theorise that you are like a long-term wooble.
01:53:28 <ehird> well, long-term in the gaps between registrations, not so much in the staying.
01:53:34 <ehird> also, more like goethe
01:53:39 <zzo38> For some reason, the A22i assembler supports roman numerals
01:53:49 <ehird> zzo38: Probably a GNU project.
01:55:26 <oerjan> i don't recall ever leaving in a huff :D
01:55:54 <oerjan> not that i recall very much clearly at all
01:56:07 <zzo38> However, this one isn't a GNU project.
01:56:17 <ehird> oerjan: they had cantus cygnei and writ of fages back then yes?
01:56:26 <zzo38> (A22i is for assembling codes for ARM machines)
01:56:38 <zzo38> (Specifically, the GBA/NDS)
01:57:04 <ehird> oerjan: me/ais523/comex scammed that based on the fact that writ of fages let you come back without waiting 30 days :) (but the scam failed in other ways)
01:57:04 <oerjan> ehird: the ones that ended around christmas may simply have been because my parents didn't have internet access at the time
01:57:23 <ehird> oerjan: wouldn't that be abandoning? or would you have deregistered beforehand
01:57:36 <oerjan> i guess it would be abandoning
01:57:38 <ehird> how can you expire multiple times
01:57:43 <ehird> that doesn't even make no sense
01:57:52 <ehird> oerjan: abandoning = don't post for a long time
01:57:54 <ehird> without deregistering
01:58:00 <oerjan> is expire a technical term?
01:58:03 <ehird> then someone deregisters you
01:58:10 <ehird> also, a human expiring generally means
01:58:18 <ehird> in fact by generally i mean always
01:58:21 <oerjan> and also, this may have been in the period before Hold
01:58:44 <ehird> then it'd have just been deregistering after not posting
01:59:20 <oerjan> in fact i find the two ending in Dec 95 and Jan 96 suspicious, that there are two rather than just one
01:59:49 <ehird> complain! oh wait you might have a seizure even typing that address :D
02:00:10 <oerjan> Jan 96 i went to the US
02:00:26 <ehird> maybe it was a scam involving deregistering.
02:00:28 <oerjan> so it is conceivable i abandoned twice
02:00:33 <ehird> did they have the 30 day cooldown period thten?
02:01:11 <ehird> after deregistering, you can't register for 30 days
02:02:47 <oerjan> cannot remember if we ever had that
02:02:54 <oerjan> certainly not all the time
02:03:53 <oerjan> also, it is quite possible that i only deregistered properly once, may have been in 2002-2004
02:04:03 <oerjan> all the rest being abandons
02:04:32 <ehird> they would say "a" then
02:04:38 <ehird> oerjan: and the 2004 one is abandoning
02:04:41 <ehird> so TOTALLY WRONG BITCH
02:04:59 <oerjan> i _thought_ i deregistered properly then
02:05:12 <oerjan> maybe it was the time before
02:05:13 <FireFly> What are you talking about anyway?
02:06:22 <ehird> It's tierced palewise sable, argent, and sable, charged with a quill and an axe in saltire, proper, and in the chief a capital letter A, gules.
02:06:27 <ehird> No, wait, it's http://agoranomic.org/.
02:06:54 <ehird> (Unfortunately, we no longer have that coat of arms. Stupid modernists.)
02:07:13 <FireFly> Hmm, I've read a bit about nomic, sounds like fun
02:07:29 <ehird> FireFly: Yes. The game sucks a bit now, unfortunately, rule-wise.
02:07:48 <ehird> It's been going since before I was born (since 1993), so it'll probably straighten out shortly.
02:08:00 <oerjan> hm indeed i abandoned in 2004, i have kept the registrar's messages to that effect
02:08:15 <ehird> Unless people actually like the current ruleset; polling seems to suggest no
02:08:23 <ehird> oerjan: what, as a trophy? :P
02:09:00 <ehird> HA! Fuck you all! I won't even dignify you with a deregistration!
02:09:08 <oerjan> at that time i was only reading email about once a month, i think
02:10:40 <oerjan> <ehird> It's been going since before I was born (since 1993) <-- that _is_ a bit awesome :D
02:11:10 <ehird> (Uh, Agora that is, not me.)
02:12:00 <ehird> Michael posted recently, iirc.
02:12:07 <ehird> (As in, months ago. Maybe even laate last year.)
02:12:28 <ehird> It was supporting singular they over e, iirc, and it was a few posts
02:13:06 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
02:15:12 <oerjan> singular they? have they _no_ sense of tradition?
02:17:38 <coppro> ehird: you should join the bobzooping contract
02:17:55 <ehird> coppro: no, I don't want to support BobTHJ's site
02:18:06 <ehird> oerjan: Shakespeare, dude
02:18:10 <ehird> oerjan: it used to be like that, anyway
02:18:15 <ehird> e shimmied in to replace they later on
02:18:20 <coppro> ehird: no, it's a contract that allows zooping support of NoVs
02:18:22 <ehird> the original ruleset uses "they"
02:18:38 <coppro> especially those against Bob
02:20:17 <ehird> interesting fact: http://www.stevey.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/50-years-exploration-huge.jpg, if scaled so that it is vertically 1200 pixels high, would cover roughly 1.41449296600234 1920x1200 displays horizontatlly
02:21:04 <ehird> which is a shame, because it'd look amazing on 2 or 3 24" displays
02:22:09 <coppro> there's also a whole in it
02:23:06 <coppro> some of the lines are cut off for the Pioneers/Voyagers
02:23:17 <coppro> they resume on the other side of the box
02:23:20 <ehird> those are separate missions or something it hink
02:23:57 <ehird> whatever, if I had two or three monitors (I guess I'll want them when I have the bigger room, bigger desk) i'd ask for a non-blanked vevrsion
02:24:10 <ehird> i love how the bits around earth are so psychedelic
02:24:18 <ehird> well 70s psychedelia sort of thing
02:24:23 <ehird> coppro: also, it's a jpg
02:24:32 <ehird> but I'm sure something with so much effort put into it has a master copy.
02:24:49 <ehird> "This is an image from a special edition national geographic magazine."
02:25:02 <ehird> coppro: so I just need a high-quality scanner
02:25:30 <ehird> coppro: boxes explained
02:25:30 <ehird> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_HRnKzjq-c5g/SW2tmiRqzVI/AAAAAAAAAUY/UpAVj64ybfI/s1600/Space.jpg
02:25:36 <ehird> the boring explanatory text was omitted
02:26:02 <ehird> the damage was repaired in other areas
02:26:05 <ehird> see e.g. the bottom ones
02:26:09 <ehird> but not that one, presumably a mistake
02:27:22 <coppro> the bottom gradient isn't cut off by the text
02:28:19 <ehird> coppro: yes, the damage was patched up there, prersumably
02:28:30 <ehird> but not the other one
02:28:51 <coppro> but w/e, it's not important
02:28:59 <coppro> what about the contract?
02:31:15 <fizzie> Ooh, that's a pretty picture. It doesn't really fit the aspect ratio of my desktop either, though. (3861x1706 vs. approximately 4544x1200.)
02:32:06 <fizzie> (And I never have that desktop visible.)
02:33:43 <ehird> fizzie: I resized it to (something)x1050 and then cropped all the right side off
02:34:04 <ehird> I hate how black backgroundd obscure shadows on them
02:34:18 <ehird> When shadows poke out other places, it looks weirdly inconsistent
02:34:24 <ehird> Also, it's quite busy to be a background.
02:34:37 <ehird> Also, the sun makes my apple logo bronze.
02:35:29 <ehird> Happily, though, there's no white-line-at-the-bottom in my cropped version.
02:35:33 <ehird> As in, at the right side.
02:35:44 <ehird> Having that at the very edge would look awkward.
02:36:50 <ehird> "It's from a National Geographic article, here as a draggable tile map;
02:36:50 <ehird> http://books.nationalgeographic.com/map/map-day/index
02:36:50 <ehird> Here's the format of the individual tiles,
02:36:50 <ehird> http://books.nationalgeographic.com/.../TileGroup0/4-4-2.jpg
02:36:51 <ehird> And an XML of the details,
02:36:51 <ehird> http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/map/.../ImageProperties.xml
02:36:52 <ehird> If anyone cares to piece it together."
02:37:10 <ehird> Quick, slave — I mean fizzie —!
02:37:32 <ehird> http://books.nationalgeographic.com/map/map-day/2008/10/solar_system/TileGroup0/4-4-2.jpg Uurgh, the compression artefacts.
02:38:36 <ehird> "I Don't Code in my Free Time - Ted Dziuba"
02:38:44 <ehird> *Oh, so THAT'S why he's an idiot and a douchebag!
02:39:07 <ehird> "There was only once when I actually enjoyed it, though. I was in college, and shared a common wall with a girl from Spain who was painfully unaware that her computer had a volume control knob. She would stay up late on AOL instant messenger, and I couldn't sleep. So, I rigged up a Python script to play AOL instant messenger sounds randomly every 5 to 10 seconds,"
02:39:16 <ehird> TALKING TO PEOPLE: RATED IMPOSSIBLE
02:50:55 <Sgeo> Is this guy complaining about the NAME of Twisted?
02:57:12 <zzo38> { F MOV WAA RAA. BRNZ }.
02:59:33 * oerjan notices the line between assembly and internet slang getting thinner there
03:01:32 <zzo38> Do you have a complete proper URL of the ImageProperties.xml?
03:02:23 <madbrain> fixed point functions are scary
03:04:55 <madbrain> actually I dunno if what I'm playing with are fixed point functions but as far as I can tell they are
03:05:41 <fizzie> Hrm; I've actually been combining tile-maps quite a lot, but I can't really be bothered with this particular one. It's 05am here already, so g'night and such.
03:06:54 <zzo38> madbrain: Do you ever use the #libregamewiki channel on freenode? (I have never even heard of it until now, actually, but anyways...)
03:07:42 <zzo38> O. Well, are you on that wiki?
03:08:58 <zzo38> A IRC WHOIS command and a Google search brought me to http://libregamewiki.org/List_of_developers so I was a bit curious about that
03:10:07 <madbrain> strange, it does have my name for some reason, probably compiled from some idie game
03:11:05 <madbrain> aha, probably from my brother's pygame game
03:11:15 <Gregor> Now there's a sufficiently unusual name that you can probably google it without any ambiguity.
03:11:31 <zzo38> I searched for "Hubert Lamontagne"
03:11:49 <oerjan> Gregor: i'm not sure it's that unusual in french?
03:12:16 <madbrain> gregor: well, I do have an unusual first name yes, although I'm not the only one named hubert lamontagne amazingly
03:12:18 <Gregor> Is Hubert a French name?
03:12:46 <Gregor> Huh. Doesn't scream "French" to me. Not that I know names.
03:12:59 <madbrain> like the hubert lamontagne on facebook? (1st hit) not me
03:13:14 <Gregor> There are several Gregor Richards' on Facebook.
03:13:24 <Gregor> Although there's only one on google.
03:14:45 <Gregor> There's an association between me and the company I worked for that shall not be named :(
03:16:11 <Gregor> http://www.flickr.com/photos/tobiaswrigstad/3715548371/ There's also an astoundingly terrible picture of me giving a presentation :P
03:16:38 <oerjan> don't worry, in a few years _everyone_ will have something embarassing about on the web and so it won't matter any more >:)
03:17:05 <Gregor> Neither are that embarrassing.
03:17:09 <Gregor> I just hated that company a lot.
03:17:15 <oerjan> in fact this will be so ubiquitous that people who don't have it will be strongly mistrusted as having something to hide
03:19:04 <oerjan> "What, there are no nude pictures of you on the internet?" Do you have some ugly scar or something?"
03:19:34 <Gregor> There are no nude pictures of me on the webernets :P
03:20:09 <Gregor> http://www.flickr.com/photos/tobiaswrigstad/3715548571/ Oh look, there's a slightly-less-terrible picture of me giving the same talk. Also my advisor.
03:21:02 <ehird> Whoa, people talked!
03:21:27 <oerjan> Gregor: well me neither, but just you wait a few years!
03:22:44 * oerjan hadn't quite got the idea the Gregor wore hats _indoors_
03:22:46 <ehird> Gregor: your clothing = awesome
03:23:16 <Gregor> I wear hats (and also shirts and ties) in all social situations.
03:23:29 <ehird> Also underwear, etc.
03:23:31 <oerjan> i shall now find some mind bleach to remove that tie.
03:23:40 <ehird> Is it pink and green? I think so.
03:23:50 <ehird> Gregor: do any of your hats ever fall off
03:24:21 <Gregor> It has a pattern, but the pattern is pink and pink.
03:24:29 <Gregor> And no, my hats never fall off. I have hats that fit.
03:24:56 <ehird> wait, social situations, does that include sex?
03:25:02 <ehird> share some of dat mind bleach
03:25:02 <Gregor> Unless my memory fails me, no hat has ever fallen off my head.
03:25:45 <oerjan> i'm afraid i'm all out
03:25:50 <Gregor> oerjan: http://codu.org/hats/PinkPaisleyFedora-med.jpg
03:25:55 <pikhq> Gregor: "That shall not be named"?
03:25:56 <ehird> I'll ccheck the blackm arket
03:26:04 <Gregor> pikhq: I wurrrrve Intel.
03:26:08 <Gregor> pikhq: I was quite happy to work at Intel.
03:26:14 <Gregor> It's a different company.
03:26:22 <pikhq> Okay, so a company that merits hating.
03:26:35 <Gregor> You almost certainly haven't heard of it.
03:31:13 <ehird> Gregor: Is it Plof Enterprises, who you stole Plof from
03:31:20 <ehird> YOU HAVEN'T DENIED IT
03:31:35 <Gregor> Damn, I'm not fast enough at denying things.
03:32:04 <oerjan> we shall have to register didgregorrichardsstealploffromplofenterprises.com now
03:34:34 <ehird> isgregorrichardssecretlyglennbeck.com
03:35:09 <Gregor> didgregorrichardsrapeandmurderglennbeckin1990.com
03:35:18 <ehird> didayounggirlrapeandmurdergregorrichardsin1990.com
03:35:35 <ehird> Pretty sure you're GAY enough for it to happen. Wearing pink ties and all.
03:35:53 <Gregor> And big pink triangles :P
03:36:02 <ehird> You're basically dead.
03:36:07 <ehird> EVEN NOW, AS A ZOMBIE
03:36:14 <Gregor> Braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaains.
03:36:26 <Sgeo> Why does XChat think I hit /clear in this channel?
03:37:00 <ehird> Because you accidentally yourself at night.
03:37:08 <zzo38> I don't know how XChat works, maybe read the document first
03:37:20 <zzo38> Maybe you accidentally slipped and pushed the wrong key
03:39:02 <zzo38> DEF INC [P ADD %1 C1] OW [P MOV %1 %1 #1].
03:39:39 <ehird> I read P...OW as POW
03:39:50 <ehird> What.Is.The.World.Coming.To
03:40:55 <zzo38> I don't know what is the world coming to?
03:41:31 <ehird> I HATE THIS KEYBOARD
03:41:34 <zzo38> Do you understand what this code even means? Or, the other code from before? Let's see?
03:41:39 <zzo38> What keyboard are you using?
03:42:01 <ehird> I could make a good guess at what it's doing. And a Cherry scissor-switch (like on laptops) one. "Stream XT".
03:42:26 <zzo38> O. OK, that's what keyboard.
03:42:59 <ehird> Going to replace it with either an FKBN87MC/NPEK or an FKBN87M/EB, both of which have among their features inscrutable names and extreme priceyness, and among the former's features is being out of stock.
03:43:21 <ehird> But not until I get the new desk, which is not until we move, so yeah. Stuck with this thing.
03:44:08 <zzo38> Now let's see if you can try to figure out these asm codes, even just by guessing
03:44:32 <zzo38> I do have a document about it, but first try to figure out without document. OK
03:44:43 <ehird> [P ...] means "put ... before this instruction, and replace this P thingy with the contents of %1, which you will replace with a free register".
03:45:52 <ehird> Well, let me figure out the rest first.
03:46:05 <zzo38> I can tell you a hint, this line is a macro definition.
03:46:30 <ehird> MOV X Y Z is... um, MOV instructions usually only have two arguments.
03:46:44 <ehird> Maybe #1 isn't a main argument.
03:46:47 <ehird> Or an argument at all.
03:47:36 <zzo38> #1 is an immediate argument, maybe you can try to figure it out by the context.
03:47:55 <ehird> Well, okay, INC is clearly a macro to increment something, so %1 must be the number 1.
03:48:05 <zzo38> No. %1 is not the number 1
03:48:08 <ehird> C1 is the number 1.
03:48:12 <ehird> %1 is the first macro argument.
03:48:15 <ehird> INC x becomes INC x C1
03:48:20 <zzo38> Yes. C1 is the number 1 and %1 is the first macro argument, that is correct.
03:48:54 <ehird> It's not a two-argument case, and inc is done by the ADD %1 C1 instruction... so it's not part of the actual macro expansion...
03:50:04 <zzo38> Hint: Not all machine codes are possible...
03:50:17 <zzo38> ehird: You are sort of correct
03:50:24 <ehird> o_O. So... if you cannot expand to ADD %1 C1,
03:50:32 <ehird> expand to MOV {first arg} {first arg} #1
03:50:32 <zzo38> As in, the macro expansion will never contain "OW"
03:50:47 <ehird> So then I guess I have to figure out how MOV works.
03:50:48 <zzo38> Can you figure out what "OW" stands for?
03:51:07 <ehird> zzo38: MOV X Y Z = X = Y+Z
03:51:16 <ehird> MOV is an odd name for that; I'd call it ADDTO
03:51:25 <ehird> zzo38: Or is it an artefact of the long instructions
03:51:31 <ehird> i.e., you can add that to any instruction
03:51:35 <ehird> and it's taking advance of MOV being X=Y
03:51:38 <zzo38> It has to do with how immediate values are added on to instructions.
03:51:48 <ehird> Why would ADD %1 C1 ever be inexpressable?
03:52:27 <zzo38> Because C1 is a special register. %1 might not be a valid special register in all cases. (Some registers are valid both as normal and special)
03:52:44 <zzo38> Either both registers have to be special or neither.
03:53:10 <ehird> C1 *is* an odd name for it; when I thought of "constant", I thought pointer-to-1.
03:53:17 <zzo38> Now let's see if you can figure out this other code: { F MOV WAA RAA. BRNZ }.
03:53:22 <ehird> Or are there only a few?
03:53:28 <zzo38> No, C34567 doesn't work. Only C0 and C1 are available.
03:53:34 <ehird> zzo38: Zombies are a HOAX>
03:53:50 <Sgeo> .........GTK+ actually has its own programming language?
03:54:03 <Sgeo> http://live.gnome.org/Vala
03:54:10 <ehird> First of all, that's a GObject programming language.
03:54:18 <ehird> Second of all, Vala is unofficial.
03:54:25 <ehird> It is, however, nice.
03:54:39 <ehird> Well, it IS official.
03:54:46 <ehird> But no official GNOME applications uses it, as far as I know.
03:55:39 <zzo38> (At first, C34567 reminded me a bit of mahjong hands)
03:55:41 <Sgeo> Huh. Qt is finally freely available to proprietary programs?
03:55:46 * Sgeo is reading wikivs.com
03:56:06 <ehird> WikiVS is a bunch of crap./
03:56:27 <ehird> (Heh; "Laser Mouse vs Optical Mouse" — WHY is this even a page? Laser mice are an objective improvement on optical mice.)
03:57:05 <ehird> "Qt looks more native than GTK+ on Windows and Mac platforms. This is because Qt tries to use native widgets whenever possible. Even so, neither Qt nor GTK+ will look and feel completely native on Windows or Mac."
03:57:13 <ehird> Sgeo: these pages are written by idiotic non-experts
03:57:23 <zzo38> ehird: Did you figure out this code? It has nothing with Zombies! (I think...)
03:57:30 <ehird> They clearly haven't done the meagre research required, for instance, to realise that GTK+ is horrifically non-native on OS X.
03:57:39 <ehird> zzo38: "WAA RAA. BRNZ" -> "Waa raa! Brains."
03:57:48 <ehird> So I made a HOAX pun.
03:58:05 <Sgeo> ehird, technically, what was written (that you quotes) is true
03:58:07 <ehird> zzo38: Are the {...} meaningful?
03:58:11 <zzo38> Ya, it is just a pun a joke. But that is not anything about the purpose of the code.
03:58:15 <ehird> Sgeo: That is false.
03:58:16 <zzo38> The { } are meaningful
03:58:20 <ehird> GTK looks perfectly native on Windows.
03:58:42 <ehird> Sgeo: Anyway, it may be *technically* true, but it's misleading.
03:58:58 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection).
03:59:12 -!- ehird has joined.
03:59:57 <zzo38> I put random page on wiki VS and found "Copyfree vs Copyleft" the first time.
04:00:16 <ehird> Copyfree isn't even a word!
04:00:43 <ehird> "Coca-Cola is the original cola, while there isn't a huge difference in taste, Pepsi mirrored their cola after Coke's, being just different enough in taste to not actually be the same drink."
04:00:51 <ehird> Are you serious, Pepsi tastes nothing like Coca-Cola
04:00:53 <zzo38> I happen to like GPL however.
04:01:18 <zzo38> If you don't like GPL, you don't have to use it for your programs
04:01:46 <ehird> zzo38: Yes, but I have to deal with the effects of other people using GPL without in-depth reasoning on it, which I think would result in a lot fewer GPL libraries and programs.
04:02:03 <ehird> Anyway, opposing it can lead to less people using it, so nothing wrong with that.
04:02:24 * Sgeo sees how GPL libraries are bad, but GPL programs?
04:03:03 <ehird> Generally I avoid doing so.
04:04:05 <Gregor> You know what I wurve more than distro wars? License wars!
04:04:21 <ehird> Nobody should express any opinions! Rabble rabble!
04:05:03 <oerjan> YES! Opinions are evil!
04:05:22 <ehird> Especially wrong ones!
04:05:27 <ehird> People with strong opinions should die!
04:05:35 <oerjan> No right ones are even worse!
04:08:13 <zzo38> I do even maintain a fork of a GPL project. I don't have a problem to modify it.
04:08:42 <zzo38> And there is another bonus in this specific case, that the software even works, too.
04:18:01 <zzo38> But please, try the code more better this time, without Zombies, try to figure out if you can make any better guess as to what the letters and punctuations stand for, and stuff.
04:22:28 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
04:31:46 <ehird> Well that problem solved itself
04:36:59 <oerjan> it looked like you were dissing zzo there
04:37:17 <ehird> no, see the line immediately before
04:37:26 <ehird> said while I was away
04:38:59 <ehird> oerjan is PMSing! wait, no.
04:39:31 <oerjan> actually i'm in a good mood lately
04:39:44 <ehird> a very whatever mood
04:43:01 <ehird> wuteva polish may do, polish it, or i'll polish it for you
04:43:22 <ehird> ALSO: Could this poem be about penises? EXPERTS ARE UNDECIDED.
04:43:46 <oerjan> the experts are still busy testing the theory
04:44:18 <ehird> yes. with their penises, you see.
04:45:12 <Sgeo> ehird, is http://linuxcommand.gds.tuwien.ac.at/learning_the_shell.php a good tutorial? (Not for me, for someone on normish)
04:46:11 <ehird> The introduction is not objectionable. Normish is jury-rigged quite hackishly, in my opinion, so it probably isn't the best place to learn command line stuff.
04:47:14 <madbrain> brainfuck is so hard to interpret o_@
04:47:50 <madbrain> well, it is not when you're not using a functional language from vulcan :D
04:47:53 <Sgeo> Well, if madbrain means "at a glance"
04:48:02 <ehird> madbrain: it is not hard even then.
04:48:06 <ehird> Sgeo: he is still wrong.
04:50:22 <madbrain> Like, this is my increment operator:
04:50:39 <madbrain> (&(&<,&$<>,&(>,)(<,)>>,&<>,$$<>,&(>,)<,&<,>>,),$<,,)
04:50:59 <ehird> OK, that is quite hard.
04:51:05 <ehird> But that just means that language is hard, not BF. :P
04:51:07 <madbrain> There's probably a syntax error in there somewhere so it'll probably never work
04:52:21 <madbrain> I'm doing stuff like extending integers with an infinite series of 1s and 0s so that it doesn't go into an infinite loop if you overflow
04:53:56 <oerjan> is this that single variable functional language?
04:54:55 * Sgeo still hasn't proven to himself or anyone else that he can interpret loops
04:54:59 <madbrain> it took me 2 tries to write a program that repeats the input but terminates on 0 byte
04:57:50 <madbrain> A task that you can do like this is brainfuck: ,[.,]
04:59:42 <madbrain> ,[.,] in brainfuck will repeat the input characters until you give it a 0 byte
05:12:22 <madbrain> woot, brainfuck operators are regrouped in an easy binary way
05:24:46 <ehird> everyone knows what ,[.,] will do
05:24:57 <ehird> also, untrue; in the most common variant, an EOF translates into 0
05:31:21 <ehird> LAP-TOP: smaller and lighter than the average secretary
05:31:21 <ehird> PORTABLE: smaller and lighter than the average refrigerator
05:31:22 <ehird> TRANSPORTABLE: neither chained to a wall nor attached to an alarm
05:31:22 <ehird> — http://groups.google.com/group/alt.tasteless.jokes/msg/fc80e8216bf3babe?dmode=source&pli=1
05:31:57 <ehird> COPY-PROTECTED: (1) a clever method of preventing incompetent
05:31:57 <ehird> pirates from STEALING software and legitimate customers from
05:31:58 <ehird> USING it. (2) a means of distinguishing honest users from
05:31:58 <ehird> thieves by preventing larceny by the former but not the latter.
05:32:02 <ehird> you know, this is from 1994.
05:32:10 <ehird> WINDOWS: a method of dividing a computer screen into two or more
05:32:10 <ehird> unusably tiny portions
05:32:19 <ehird> Sometimes spot on, sometimes spot... off.
05:55:17 <ehird> ( ) Do Not Delete Message
05:55:22 <ehird> (X) Delete Message"
05:55:30 <ehird> after clicking "Delete" in V-Bulletin
06:04:20 <ehird> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=average+size
06:04:33 <ehird> Average size = The mean of all countries population = 6.68 billion people.
06:04:48 <ehird> Wait, what? Protip: It takes account for every human who has ever lived.
06:04:58 <ehird> No wait, it doesn't.
06:05:02 <ehird> Aw, it's far more boring.
06:05:12 <ehird> "Mean of total people living 2006-2009", basically.
06:05:17 <ehird> But that's average size, if you ask W|A.
06:31:39 <ehird> http://rentzsch.github.com/clicktoflash/killers.html
06:31:50 <ehird> i hope it embeds quicktime instead of opens it
06:31:57 <ehird> oklopol: mbrogning
06:33:10 <oklopol> about the scramble thing, i left out a very important thing: there are just two characters, a and b, and i realized my solution from last night doesn't work :P
06:33:45 <ehird> [NEW] Use HTML5 <video> element instead of QuickTime plugin to view H.264 YouTube content on Safari 4. <video> plays better with HTML in general, respecting things like CSS's z-index. (Andreas Fuchs)
06:33:47 <ehird> it does it DOES yay
06:34:11 <ehird> i am so happy i could basically... turn into a mountain
06:34:14 <oklopol> the problem is i'd have to put stuff back, basically i'd need two stacks... ;)
06:34:22 * Sgeo wishes YouTube would use Ogg
06:34:22 <ehird> two stacks... ;) ey
06:34:28 <ehird> Sgeo: ogg is a container.
06:34:47 <ehird> your line, apart from not expressing your intended sentiment,
06:34:51 <ehird> betrays your ignorance of video codecs in general
06:35:03 <ehird> and thus shows that you wouldn't know why using theora is a terrible, terrible idea
06:35:25 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDW0ZnZxjn4
06:35:26 <oklopol> i don't think the language that has to count the amounts of three characters is at all context-free, so the set of characters must be {a,b}
06:37:47 <ehird> hahaha youtube videos now show as quicktime embds
06:38:02 <ehird> I CAN JUMP TO ANY TIME AND IT WORKS
06:38:17 <ehird> well ok, apart from times not yet loaded, but that never works wiht youtube anyway
06:40:11 <oklopol> oerjan, fizzie: in my defense, usually my tired solutions are correct, and the other answers to the other questions still are :P
06:42:39 * oerjan went for a walk and saw a flock of deer (sorry no picture)
06:42:55 * ehird erects anti-swatting forcefield around himself
06:43:51 <madbrain> I wonder if these infinite integers will work or if they will generate an infinite loop
06:44:02 * oklopol came up with another way to solve the problem with a turing complete system!
06:44:26 <oklopol> fizzie's thing plus AB -> BA!
06:45:08 <oerjan> that _might_ be just context-sensitive, actually
06:45:36 <oklopol> anyway actually i think solved the actual problem
06:45:45 <oklopol> did you check the forum, is it supposed to be trivial?
06:46:01 <oklopol> because the one i have now is a rather large construction
06:46:24 <oklopol> i thought someone linked a forum with the answer to the {a, b} case thing
06:47:22 <oerjan> oklopol: er you realize AB -> BA means you don't even need fizzie's thing, right?
06:47:37 <oerjan> um fizzie gave a link yes, don't know if it was to a forum
06:47:38 <oklopol> AB -> BA is not context-free
06:47:49 <oklopol> well i don't know where i got the forum idea
06:47:53 <oerjan> you suggested it yourself
06:48:08 <oklopol> i didn't suggest it, it was a "joke"
06:48:19 <oklopol> " oklopol came up with another way to solve the problem with a turing complete system!"
06:48:38 <oklopol> anyway i guess your point is still valid
06:49:28 <oerjan> <oklopol> i don't think the language that has to count the amounts of three characters is at all context-free
06:49:43 <oerjan> basically what we proved (in two different ways)
06:51:16 <oklopol> i didn't actually assume anyone would start trying to solve it, because no solver was present, so i guess i was a bit vague
06:52:32 <oerjan> fizzie used the pumping lemma, i used intersection with a*b*c* to get a^n b^n c^n
06:52:33 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
06:52:58 <oerjan> of course you need the pumping lemma again to show that isn't CF
06:56:16 <oerjan> now your AB -> BA point does show that the scramble of any regular language is context-free, i think
06:56:24 <oerjan> or of any context-free, even
06:59:35 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
07:02:31 <madbrain> my brainfuck interpreter failed
07:07:39 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
07:07:57 -!- oklopol has joined.
07:08:51 <oklopol> oerjan: context-sensitive doesn't let variables switch places, you can just *look* at the context
07:11:26 <oklopol> anyway cs is the stuff you can solve with O(n) space, AB -> BA wouldn't require much space, so not surprising there's an equivalent system that allows dat
07:14:23 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noncontracting_grammar
07:18:21 <oklopol> ah yeah i've heard of that
07:24:01 <oerjan> madbrain: i suggest aggressive commenting and unit testing
07:25:30 <ehird> "iPhone and iPod models have continued to put pressure on worldwide supplies of NAND flash memory, soaking up enough of the industry capacity that demand now exceeds supply."
07:27:07 <oerjan> madbrain: i am not joking mind you
07:27:25 <oerjan> you can always strip it out before publication
07:28:22 <oerjan> i am pretty sure that's how i wrote my unlambda in unlambda interpreter
07:29:23 <ehird> you can't unit test and comment if the language is anal enough
07:29:27 <ehird> (no way to do comments → can't run)
07:29:52 <ehird> so better perl -pe 's/^\s*#.*//' :P
07:30:15 <oerjan> ehird: for unlambda in intercal i did essentially that
07:30:39 <ehird> or is it PLEASE NOTE?
07:31:06 <oerjan> quite possibly all of them
07:31:27 <ehird> oerjan: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:INTERCAL#INTERCAL_is_not_Compiler_Language_With_No_Pronouncable_Acronym
07:32:20 <oerjan> although i vaguely recall there is _some_ intuitive combination of PLEASE DO and NOT which is illegal
07:33:15 <ehird> it isn't PLEASE DON'T, is it?
07:33:20 <ehird> because N'T isn't an instruction...
07:34:05 <ehird> oerjan: 'ere, link to your intercal program with a bunch of irrelevant comments, I forget it
07:35:29 <oerjan> http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/intercal/unlambda.li
07:36:39 <oerjan> i definitely used all three forms
07:37:15 <oerjan> although not all may have been in actually running positions
07:38:24 <oerjan> also don't try to run it with a recent INTERCAL, use ais523's bugfixed version from the C-INTERCAL distribution
07:39:15 <ehird> oerjan: recent INTERCAL? you mean esr c-intercal?
07:39:21 <ehird> i wouldn't dream of it, ais523's branch is canonical...
07:39:29 <ehird> well unofficially canonical.
07:39:36 <oerjan> no, i mean the one ais523 is maintaining
07:39:41 <ehird> what's the bugfixed version?
07:40:07 <oerjan> just one line that was technically illegal, and which is no longer allowed. i don't recall.
07:41:01 <oerjan> i used esr's version to develop the program. this was in 2002 or so, so ais523's version probably didn't exist yet
07:41:17 <ehird> there are no recent esr intercals, you see
07:41:28 <ehird> "If we took sexual behavior as an analogy, the possible many-to-one relation of the GO TO is like being gang-banged, with a relatively small variety of possible outcomes (progeny), while the COME FROM is more like a bee going from... oh, never mind." —Ted Nelson
07:41:44 <ehird> Brought to you by the inventor of teledildonics! Also Xanadu.
07:43:19 <oerjan> i think it may have been DO PLEASE that was the illegal variation...
07:43:37 <ehird> didn't we discuss the true opposite of GO TO a while ago?
07:43:56 <ehird> oh, we discussed the opposite of hyperlinks for use in a fancy C-INTERCAL website
07:44:09 <ehird> madbrain: inverse, then, not opposite
07:44:35 <ehird> anyway, it lead to our conclusion that whatever I came up with wasn't like COME FROM because COME FROM wasn't a true opposite of GO TO
07:46:49 <oerjan> if this is something like what links here in wikipedia or linksto: in google
07:47:02 <oerjan> then how is it not analogous to COME FROM
07:47:31 <ehird> I don't recall what it was; I imagine I'd have avoided those two since they're common
07:47:34 <ehird> But see Ted Nelson's link:
07:47:51 <ehird> http://catb.org/~esr/intercal/nelson.html
07:47:57 <ehird> Well, not ted nelson's LINK
07:48:12 <ehird> (Note: Reading Ted Nelson is hard.)
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07:58:35 <oklopol> okay how about this for a solution skeleton: if i could prove the scramble of a regular language with just one character is regular, then, i could separately check, with the NFA, the a and b subsets of the language (because regular language with some character completely dropped out is still regular)
07:58:51 <oklopol> because i can stuff all b's on the stack
07:58:59 <ehird> if i could your mom, then, i could your mom
07:59:07 <ehird> (Fun fact: this is grammatically correct, given some slang.)
07:59:09 <oklopol> while checking a's, then guess at some point there is no input, and start doing the b's
07:59:34 <oklopol> i read it as grammatically correct without slang
07:59:48 <oklopol> well i guess it should be "me could your mom"
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08:00:00 <oklopol> meaning "your mom could me"
08:00:30 <ehird> "If I could have sex with a computer" -> "If I could do have sex with a computer"
08:01:11 <oerjan> well clearly your scramble is determined by the possible amounts of a's and b's. But the relation between the possibilities could be complicated
08:01:14 <oklopol> interestingly enough, "ham" is a type of food
08:01:24 <ehird> ham is a type of duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude
08:01:36 <ehird> hex codes, lol they shit all over the floor
08:01:39 <ehird> i have many a flaw
08:01:42 <ehird> okay i'll stop now, whore
08:01:45 <ehird> because this is becoming a bore.
08:01:55 <oerjan> as in, even if you know all possibilities for no. as _and_ all possibilities for no. bs, you don't know which possibilities can occur simultaneously.
08:02:49 <oerjan> however i suspect there is some intrinsic limit to how complicated the relationship can be in this case
08:03:05 <ehird> yeah without ass and without bullshit, relationships can only go so far
08:05:27 <ehird> got up at 8pm, oerjan
08:05:33 <ehird> whoa, it's 8am already
08:06:13 <oklopol> here i thought for *once* the automata theory problems were easy
08:07:19 <oklopol> (well actually last ones were, since we just started CFG, so it was mostly ad hoc proofs for properties of individual grammars)
08:16:52 * oerjan sees how to get the _sort_ rather than the scramble...
08:21:05 * ehird realises that geekhack.org are warming him to the idea of buying a $256 keyboard
08:21:05 <ehird> ehh, it's 100 octal dollars, not *too* bad
08:21:30 <ehird> holy fuck I'm so dumb
08:21:40 <ehird> I don't know what base 256 is 100 in
08:21:44 <ehird> what is up with me
08:21:52 <ehird> anyway, uh, yeah, $256 keyboard people.
08:22:06 <ehird> plus shipping, plus import duty.
08:29:24 <ehird> http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:4917
08:29:33 <ehird> apart from the ridged capslock, amazing
08:29:49 <ehird> keyboard with no borders + real, authentic IBM trackpoint + beautiful case
08:29:56 <ehird> + clicky mechanical keyswitches
08:30:03 <ehird> i want one, too bad it's a mod.
08:37:10 <oklopol> ehird: 100 = 1*b^2 + 0*b + 0*1 = 256, solve for b
08:38:27 <ehird> i knew it was base 16, it just clashed with my understanding of 0xFF
08:38:34 <ehird> because i thought 256 = 255
08:38:42 <ehird> pretty stupid, yeah.
08:39:25 <oklopol> don't worry, i can't even do my math homework.
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09:07:17 <ehird> Quick poll: which key is more common, |\ or ~`?
09:17:59 <MizardX> 1) "\" 2) "|" 3) "~" 4) "`"
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09:28:42 <ehird> MizardX: no, the combined keys.
09:28:56 <ehird> maybe your kb doesn't have 'em :P
09:29:31 <MizardX> Only ever used |\ in regex, with something following the \
09:30:10 <MizardX> They show as two characters for me
09:30:45 <ehird> as i said, possibly your keyboard maps them to different keys.
09:30:59 <ehird> (` being the unshifted version)
09:31:35 <ehird> A... combined E and J key?
09:31:44 <MizardX> Ah. My keyboard has "<>|" and "¨^~" (normal, shifted and AltGr)
09:31:52 <ehird> MizardX: Thought so.
09:32:11 <Deewiant> ehird: Presumably short for "English/Japanese"
09:32:41 <Deewiant> I.e. switches mappings across the board or something.
09:33:56 <ehird> Incidentally, how do you think of this as a first-column in a kb layout (sans the bottom one):
09:35:03 <Deewiant> Well, that's pretty much what I've got except for a key in between and at the bottom :-P
09:35:42 <ehird> I am designing a keyboard layout without F keys!
09:35:57 <ehird> (You press Fn+number for them. Although technically they're punctuation keys, with the shifted functionality of numbers.)
09:36:17 <ehird> It *does* have a bottom row, though; I just haven't designed it yet :-P
09:37:42 <ehird> Ooh, I can even fit arrow keys in.
09:38:33 <oklopol> i want a keyboard layout where pressing a key starts a thread that presses that key once a second, backspace cancels a thread if you press it just after a key has been pressed by the thread, because after that the key is always deleted right after the thread presses it
09:39:17 <oklopol> anyway you can work with such a keyboard for an arbitrary period of time, assuming you can be arbitrarily fast
09:39:39 <oklopol> after a while the delays after which you need to press backspace start getting kinda small
09:40:18 <ehird> oklopol: i'm so tempted to write a program to do that
09:40:30 <oklopol> go ahead, i'm sure it'd be awesome
09:40:45 <ehird> only in a terminal window though, I'm way too lazy to learn OSy stuff
09:40:45 <oklopol> hmm..... what if the delays go 1, 2, 4, 8, ... seconds
09:40:58 <oklopol> actually then also the backspace becomes more delayed
09:41:38 <MizardX> What if you press some key twice, or backspace twice?
09:41:48 <oklopol> MizardX: then there's two threads.
09:42:07 <oklopol> nothing is ever cancelled, you just start an eraser thread by pressing backspace
09:42:45 <oklopol> anyone sense an esolang? :P
09:43:50 <ehird> oklopol: what if the delays halve\
09:44:04 <ehird> you'd have to be a physics-improving-and-self-improving AI to get it as time goes on
09:44:04 <oklopol> oh right, that's actually better
09:44:19 <oklopol> what if you accidentally press a, and go get coffee
09:44:20 <ehird> since after a while the delays become <planck-second
09:44:29 <ehird> oklopol: well, don't be so stupid
09:44:36 <ehird> it'd take years to remove all the as anyway with 1s delay :P
09:44:40 <oklopol> or press backspace, you will never be able to use your keyboard again :D
09:45:01 <ehird> just time another key
09:45:03 <ehird> right before the backspace
09:45:25 <ehird> i mean assuming you're not to late
09:45:33 <ehird> oklopol: start the delay at like 10 seconds so that you have a chance
09:45:39 <ehird> also, so that it appears to be a regular keyboard at first glance
09:46:30 <oklopol> we should probably start production
09:48:06 <ehird> oklopol: yeah I'm writing that program.
09:48:35 <ehird> oklopol: erm using OS threads is a bad idea due to timing fluctuation, isn't it
09:48:43 <ehird> or does that just add to the fun
09:50:29 <oklopol> i think they should be accurate, so you they're "theoretically usable"
09:51:04 <ehird> actually the guarantee in sleep() is that it won't return BEFORE n seconds
09:51:07 <ehird> it could take n*99999999999999 seconds
09:51:15 <ehird> same with thread switching among the rest of the system, etc
09:51:18 <oklopol> well, maybe you can with random fluctuations too, but at least considerably harder
09:51:31 <ehird> well, OS threads will get you minute random fluctuations
09:52:16 <ehird> oklopol: can you hold shift keys? if so, caps lock = hold down shift for a whole delay time
09:52:22 <ehird> unfortunately not reversible, you'd need an anti-switch key
09:53:53 <oklopol> or double shift = no shift
09:54:20 <ehird> so shift, delay, shift = no shift?
09:54:22 <ehird> right, that'd work
09:55:11 <ehird> oklopol: i just realised with halving delays, you have to erase the very first one that appears
09:55:17 <ehird> or you can never erase them all
09:55:21 <ehird> (to delete an accidental key)
09:55:28 <ehird> you can never go faster than the key
09:55:34 <ehird> because it was pressed earlier than you
09:55:39 <ehird> oklopol: so basically... don't make mistakes.
09:55:58 <ehird> also, be very good at hitting backspace right after the first repetition
09:56:09 <ehird> wait, that fails after a while too
09:56:18 <ehird> oklopol: it needs a reset button, as much as that ruins the keyboard-broken-forever fun
09:56:27 <ehird> so you type out your sentence REALLY QUICK, deal with the first repetitions, then reset it
09:56:45 <ehird> just linear delays
09:57:38 <oklopol> for irc, write your message, press enter, backspace everything you wrote, wait for delay, then accelerate your typing speed so much you can fit your next message and its backspaces between 0 and time of first character, press enter between, repeat; assuming enter is special, if there's an enter thread, you're bound to repeat the same lines forever
09:57:50 <oklopol> oh actually not, you could erase them just before next enter
09:58:36 <ehird> i lol'd at "then accelerate your typing speed so much you can fit your next message and its backspaces between 0 and time of first character" irl
09:59:12 <ehird> oklopol: also not true with the enter thread thing
09:59:18 <ehird> you can manipulate it before it gets to enter
09:59:18 <oklopol> so write message, press enter, remember the time just before enter, your next message goes before the first character, during next thread interval, and you always need to erase last interval's characters just before thri enter
09:59:51 <ehird> coding with this would be fun
10:00:06 <ehird> incidentally, with mistakes you can tell someone's typing speed.
10:00:12 <ehird> (unerased characters)
10:01:48 <oklopol> so, MSG1 <ENTER> || MSG2 <ENTER> msg1 <BACKSPACES> <enter> || MSG3 <ENTER> msg2 <BACKSPACES> <enter> msg1 <backspaces> <enter> || ... where ucase is for new additions
10:01:53 <oklopol> assuming empty messages aren't sent
10:02:15 <oklopol> so this would suggest moving stuff towards the end of the interval keeps things non-exponential
10:02:52 <oklopol> of course, you will have to manage to get all the backspaces in place right away, because the slot will get smaller and smaller
10:03:22 <ehird> I'm implementing it now
10:04:43 <oklopol> good, then we can compete about who can write the most sentences without size of buffer getting over 256
10:04:59 <ehird> it will require curses
10:05:02 <ehird> so you'll have to DOWNLOAD A LIBRARY
10:05:08 <ehird> even termios would
10:06:06 <oklopol> or rob a bank and buy a dog that can telepathically send me the results of running that
10:06:14 <oklopol> i see your point, i can never try it.
10:07:32 <ehird> don't you have an ubuntu machine
10:09:07 <oklopol> well sure, but it's in the other room!
10:09:54 <ehird> ok, I have a curses program that echoes out characters
10:09:56 <ehird> no arrow keys for you
10:10:01 <ehird> nor backspace, but I'll add that
10:10:26 <oklopol> also the game theory lecturer is, well, an insanely bad lecturer, i love how he always copies half the homework from the book, but introduces a few errors because he sucks at english (russian dude), and makes up a few of his own after the book runs out of nice ones
10:10:43 <oklopol> and the ones he makes himself are always insanely trivial, the ones from the book are, well, MIT stuff
10:10:56 <oklopol> some get kinda complicated
10:11:44 <oklopol> so basically the first three or so are incredibly hard, and the last ones are basically trivial if you've read the definitions
10:12:39 <ehird> hmm okay some bugsgs i think
10:13:05 <oklopol> the dude often actually copies the exercises word to word, except leaves a few sentences out, and changes a few details making the problem impossible or trivial, so you first need to find the exercise in the book to understand what should actually be solved
10:13:20 <ehird> are you sure he's not an awesome lecturer
10:13:24 <ehird> i mean, only people like you will succeed
10:13:30 <ehird> the kind of people who go to such lengths
10:14:53 <oklopol> well most people haven't done any of these, since they're optional
10:15:04 <ehird> okay bad lecturer.
10:15:11 <oklopol> but one dude has done one more than me
10:15:36 <oklopol> well, people usually don't do much homework even if it isn't optional
10:15:39 <MizardX> typing "hello world" at 1 ch/s, running for 10 secs: hellollo o l o wew wwo wlw wolowoo owoowo owoowoo oworlowrror rowrrorrowroror rowrrorrowrror rowrrorrowrlorlolrl lrlolwrllrlolrllrllolwrllrlolrl lrlolwrllrlollrllrlolwrllorlolrl lrlolwrllrlolrllrlolwrllrlolrld h
10:15:42 <ehird> [[Yes, curses is protected by the global interpreter lock: No two calls
10:15:42 <ehird> into curses are allowed simultaneously.]]
10:15:44 <ehird> well that will help
10:15:55 <ehird> MizardX: yes, but that doesn't handle user input, presumably
10:16:00 <ehird> so you can't baackspace
10:17:15 <ehird> okay, the adding works, it just doesn't flush the screen
10:17:48 <ehird> no wait, window.getch() being blocking
10:17:50 <ehird> blocks all the other threads
10:17:54 <ehird> from making curses calls
10:17:57 <ehird> so it has to be non-blocking
10:21:55 <ehird> Hello, worldHde!llo, worldHde!llo, worldHde!llo, worldHde!llo, worldHde!llo, wor
10:21:56 <ehird> ldHde!llo, worldHde!llo, w orldHHdeo!llwo , war ore ldyHHdeoo!lulwo, ,I war o re olndyHHddeeoo!lrul?wo, ,II w ar o hwre olnodyHpHddee eoo!lrul?wo, ,II yw
10:21:56 <ehird> ar o hwre ouoln odyHapHddreee eoo !lrulwe?lwo, l ,,I I yw ar Io hwre oguoln ou
10:21:56 <ehird> dyHapHddreeees eoo !lrulwse,?lw o, lb u,,I tI yw ar Io Ihwre oguoln oud;yH'pa
10:21:57 <ehird> Hddreeees eoo !lrulwse,?lmw o, lb u, ,I tIn yw aor Io Ithwre oguoln oud;yH'p
10:21:57 <ehird> aHddreeees reoo !leraulwsel,?lmw ol, yl b u, ,I tIsn yw aor uIo Irthwre eo g
10:21:59 <ehird> uolabn oud;yH'paHddreeeoes ureoo !lotuer aulwstel,h?lmwa ol,t yl b u, .,I tIsn
10:22:01 <ehird> yw aor uIo Irthwre eo guolabn oud;yH'paHddreeeoes ureoo !lotuer aulwstel,h?lm
10:22:03 <ehird> wa ol,t yl b u, .,I tIsn yw aor uIo Irthwre eo guolabn oud;yH'paHddreeeoes u
10:22:05 <ehird> reoo !lotuer aulwstel,h?lmwa ol,t yl b u, .,I tIsn yw aor uIo Irthwre eo guo
10:22:09 <ehird> think I need to implement backspace.
10:23:04 <ehird> oklopol: it gets way harder after just a few leters
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10:27:08 <ehird> oklopol: it really gets impossible, I haven't done backspace yet but just fitting it into that tiny segment is impossible
10:27:15 <ehird> maybe the delay should double, just so it's not impossible
10:28:11 <ehird> oklopol: actually doubling delays makes it impossible
10:28:17 <ehird> since yours intersects :D
10:28:20 <ehird> although it syncs up, eventually!
10:28:47 <ehird> in fact you can just type normally then wait
10:29:18 <ehird> every key has its own delay
10:29:21 <ehird> starting at 1 and going 2, 4, etc
10:29:28 <ehird> which of course, if you type a word in the delay
10:29:32 <ehird> makes it repeat 1 second later
10:29:36 <ehird> and in a few delays
10:29:39 <ehird> this happens while the other is delaying
10:29:41 <ehird> mashing them together
10:32:29 <ehird> oklopol: this is totally impossible
10:32:49 <oklopol> if you press "a" at t, "b" at u and "c" at v, then they will repeat at (t+1, u+1, v+1), (t+3, u+3, v+3), (t+7, u+7, v+7), ..., resulting in tuvtuvtuv..., if t didn't repeat during writing the first tuv
10:32:55 <ehird> HelloHelloHello,Hello,Hello, Hello, wHello, woHello, woHello, wroHello, wrolHeld
10:32:55 <ehird> lo!, wrolHeldlo!, wrolHeldlo!, wrolHeldlo!, wrolHeldlo!, wrolHeldlo!, wrolHel
10:33:20 <ehird> oklopol: using constant 1sec ddelay
10:33:23 <ehird> think i should increase it?
10:33:49 <oklopol> increase it to TEN BILLION LIGHT YEARS MILLIONS
10:34:57 <ehird> oklopol: well fine, do you want to try and type with 1sec?
10:35:00 <ehird> get your ubuntu machine, bitch
10:35:10 <oklopol> i'm kinda doing stuff here :P
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11:09:39 <ehird> oklopol: still thinging does?
11:14:24 <ehird> can't even take five minutes and stay up five minutes longer, kids these days
11:26:57 <ehird> Deewiant: You didn't even think of the backspace-on-capslock thing, you just inherited it from Colemak :P
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12:42:06 <ehird> "Disregarding the metaphysical aspects of Schrodinger's cats, (Letters, April 28) I must protest at the use of (possibly live) animals for experiments such as these. I urge readers to boycott whatever product this research is leading to.
12:42:06 <ehird> Roger Bisby, Reigate, Surrey."
12:42:17 <ehird> — letter sent to the Guardian
12:50:02 <ehird> You don't know what
12:50:15 <Deewiant> I recall being surprised that Colemak made the same choice as I did
12:50:43 <Deewiant> But it's possible I picked it up from Colemak earlier and forgot about it
12:50:46 <ehird> I did that mapping to try it out, but got too bothered by the fact that the LED still switched to actually give it a chance.
12:50:55 <ehird> It doesn't help that I'm using a shitty keyboard.
12:51:15 <Deewiant> That's why I originally dismissed it too
12:51:16 <ehird> I can't decide that $256 is way too much FOR NOW FOR NOW and settle on the brown filco a moment too soon.
12:51:39 <Deewiant> But then I actually tried it and found that it doesn't toggle the LED, so I was happy.
12:51:59 <ehird> It did for me, though.
12:52:04 <ehird> Using DoubleCommand.
12:52:13 <ehird> I could probably remap it with something else, but that soured it in my mind, so eh.
12:52:29 <ehird> Deewiant: You're criticising OS X because some low-level-tinkering software sucks?
12:52:40 <Deewiant> Worked for me first time in both Windows and Linux
12:52:41 <ehird> Wow, why HELLO there, Windows, why are you sobbing in the corner with a dunce cap?
12:52:49 <ehird> Did someone hurt your feelings?
12:52:53 <Deewiant> ehird: It's a perfectly valid criticism
12:52:55 <ehird> They said your software sucks?
12:53:02 <ehird> Well I think someone only IMPLIED that, man.
12:53:14 <Deewiant> I didn't say it doesn't apply to anything else :-P
12:53:15 <ehird> I'm leaving you, Windows.
12:53:23 <ehird> You're a whining bitch.
12:53:47 <ehird> <Windows> *rapes me*
12:53:51 <ehird> Oh, that's why I left you.
12:53:55 <ehird> ...apart from the bitch thing.
12:54:04 <ehird> ...and thus ends that warped... thing. Mini-play.
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13:22:14 <oklopol> oerjan, possibly fizzie: use stack as a counter (-inf, inf), take the DFA recognizing L, replace each b-move with an epsilon move that incs the counter, and make each actual b decrement the counter, now if x \in scramble(L), then you can guess the word it's derived from, and follow its accepting path, the b-counter will get to zero, if the machine accepts something, it did so using some accepting path -> the word was the scramble of
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13:22:32 <oklopol> tried to solve that for fucking hours, then go to the shop, and solve in in about 2 minutes :|
13:22:47 <oklopol> irc seriously makes me retarded
13:22:58 <oklopol> assuming that's correct, i'm so high on caffeine atm i don't know which direction is true and which is green
13:23:52 <oklopol> also i solved a measure theory problem i'd been trying to solve for hours, on the same trip, in even less time
13:24:01 <oklopol> if i ever become a mathematician, i'll probably just walk around campus all day
13:24:28 <ehird> oklopol: do you want the python file
13:25:11 <oklopol> no, in fact i'm currently very tempted to throw my computer away, i prefer being intelligent over having company :|
13:25:13 <fizzie> oklopol: It got cut off a bit; here at "-> the word was the scramble o".
13:25:26 <ehird> due to + thing client thing
13:25:31 <oklopol> accepting path -> the word was the scramble of the word that accepting path accepts
13:25:35 <ehird> oklopol: you can prove you're intelligent by beating me at oklokbing
13:26:20 <oklopol> i'm not going to prove that by induction or anything, because, well, that's boring. so would be nice if you could check my logic
13:28:55 <ehird> haha it's so impossible
13:29:16 <ehird> sweet, I pressed backspace too many times
13:29:51 <fizzie> The logic sounds sense-making to me, especially as far as it comes to accepting any word in scramble(L).
13:29:51 <ehird> oklopol: I bet you you cannot type all your IRC lines in this and then paste them in
13:29:56 <ehird> I bet you'll fail horribly
13:30:16 <ehird> as a bonus it has accelerating key repeat
13:30:27 <ehird> also it exits if you hit the bottom of the window
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13:31:12 <oklopol> fizzie: in the other direction, assume the machine accepts some word w, then it went through an accepting path that would normally accept some x, with the additional knowledge that the counter went to zero, so w must've been a scramble of x
13:31:20 <ehird> Soitm,rSifoitim,rpe sl Sixnfodi tim,ropfe sal alaiSixienfodi tim,ropfe tsal u
13:31:20 <ehird> alairaeiSixiaenfodi tim,rotpfe tsalt uialairra keei Sixiawenfodi e tim,ro tpfe
13:31:21 <ehird> tsalt uialairr euakeee i Sixiiawnefodi e ntim, ro tptfe htsael t uialairr eua
13:31:21 <ehird> keee i Sixisiawnefodii e nctim, ro tptfe htsatiel t uiealsairry eua skeee oi Si
13:31:21 <ehird> x isiawnefodii e nctrim, reo tptalfe htsatiel t luiyealsa irry eua skneSee oi
13:31:22 <ehird> iSix siiawfneodii ae nctirmk, reo t ptatlfe htsateihl t luaityealsa i rryt eua
13:31:23 <ehird> cskn htee i o uiSix ssiti awfneodiib ae nctirmke, reo t pttlfee htsatteihl t
13:31:25 <ehird> lruaituyaelsa i rryte seua cIskn hfte ei o uiSxi ssiti awfneodiib ae ncxtir
13:31:27 <ehird> mke, reo t e ptltfee h tsatteihl t llruaituyeaelsa i rrtyte, seua cIiskn thft
13:31:29 <oklopol> *we can conclude w must've been a...
13:31:29 <ehird> e ehi o uiSxi sisti bawnfeodiib ae necxtirmke, reo t e ptltfeet h tsattreihl t
13:31:31 <ehird> llruuaituyeaelsa i rretyte, seua .cIiskn thfSte ehi o uiSxi sisti bawnfeodi
13:31:33 <ehird> ib ae necxtrimke, reo t e ptltfeet h tsatt eihl t llruuaituyeaelsa i rretyte,
13:31:35 <ehird> seua .cIiskn thfStee hi o uiSxi ssiti bawnfeodiib ae necxtrimke, reo t ep tl
13:31:37 <ehird> god it's so pretty
13:31:52 <ehird> it's only experiencable if you see all the backspacing happening
13:32:13 <oklopol> because clearly w must've had the same amount of both a's and b's as x
13:32:47 <oklopol> well, anyway, that's my final answer even if the logic is wrong, IT'S NOT ABOUT BEING RIGHT IT'S ABOUT LEARNING YOU SEE
13:32:49 <ehird> oklopol: the hidden issue with this plan is after only a few backspaces, they drown out any new keys
13:32:53 <ehird> and intersect with the others
13:33:00 <ehird> How are How are youHow are youHow are youHow are you?How are you?How are you?How
13:33:00 <ehird> a r eyou?How a r eyou?How a r eyou?How a r eyou?Hw ar eou?Hw ar eou?Hw ar eou?w
13:33:00 <ehird> arouowr e rouoar rouoar rouoar rouoar rouoar rouoar rouoar rouoar
13:33:00 <ehird> rouoar rouoar rouoar yrouoar yrouoar yrouoar yrouoar yrouoar yrouoar
13:33:40 <ehird> oklopol: type all your irc lines into this first, and i'll record a vid.
13:33:46 <ehird> or is it the other way around
13:37:35 <ehird> oklopol: i guess the latter but you won't actually do it, eh
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13:44:28 <ehird> oklopol: i am disagreeableing with your nature
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13:44:34 <ehird> i am accidentally leaving
13:50:41 <ehird> oklopol: do it in the ass then keyboard
13:50:44 <ehird> you came up with this idea
13:51:02 <ehird> otherwise you are the biggest dick. in a bad way
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14:00:24 <ehird> i thought you died
14:00:29 <ehird> you haven't been here since, what, 2007
14:01:40 <ehird> fax: don't disappear again. kthx
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14:10:26 <oklopol> ehird: then sorry about being a dick.
14:10:51 <ehird> someone: try my kb thing
14:11:00 <ehird> i am claiming authorship of it due to oklopol's suckiness.
14:11:14 <fax> what kb thing?
14:24:00 <oklopol> lol i think i am in fact learning absolute pitch, at least i seem to get A right almost every time i try
14:24:11 <ehird> 01:38:33 <oklopol> i want a keyboard layout where pressing a key starts a thread that presses that key once a second, backspace cancels a thread if you press it just after a key has been pressed by the thread, because after that the key is always deleted right after the thread presses it
14:24:16 <ehird> 01:38:37 <oklopol> "layout"
14:24:16 <ehird> 01:39:17 <oklopol> anyway you can work with such a keyboard for an arbitrary period of time, assuming you can be arbitrarily fast
14:24:16 <ehird> 01:39:39 <oklopol> after a while the delays after which you need to press backspace start getting kinda small
14:24:18 <oklopol> would be pretty cool to master that at 20, since it's supposedly be impossible
14:24:25 <ehird> and after coding it, let me specify that while = by the second word
14:24:31 <ehird> in "after a while"
14:24:51 <ehird> ofc I could increase the delay from 1s, but that's so boring!
14:25:44 <ehird> it's especially impossible to erase the first repetition
14:25:55 <ehird> oklopol: it cancels the thread?
14:25:57 <ehird> as in specialcased?
14:26:07 <ehird> i have the keys being there for a split second
14:26:11 <ehird> so if you type there it erases the wrong key
14:26:21 <ehird> makes for a fun typing experience
14:27:12 <ehird> ASDJKahsdjkasdd SaaDJ aasajsadjadaaasad SaaDJ aasajsadjadaaasad SaaDJ aasajsadja
14:27:12 <ehird> daaasad SaaDJ aasajsadjadaaasa dSaaDs aasajsadjadaaasa dSaaDJ aasajsadjadaaasa d
14:27:12 <ehird> SaaDJ aasajsadjadaaasa dSaaDJ aasajsadj daaaaa dSaaDJ aasajsadj daaaaad SaaDJ aa
14:27:12 <ehird> sajsadj dasaaad SaaDJ ahsajsadj dasaaad SaaDJ ahsajsadj dasasad SaaDJ ahsajsadk
14:27:15 <ehird> you can get such fun generators going
14:27:33 <oklopol> no no nothing is ever cancelled, that's the fun
14:27:44 <ehird> I don'DnrJI o w DnbrJIea o
14:27:44 <ehird> tdc wm aDknbrJIeia on g
14:27:45 <ehird> tdc sm wmi aDknbrJIeia o gt
14:27:45 <ehird> dc smu twlmia DiknbrJkIeeika o g
14:27:45 <ehird> tdca ksbmu h ittw lmbia DiukgnbrJkIegeika o g
14:27:46 <ehird> tdcae rk sbmue lh ittlw lm tbhia Diuekgn tbrJkIiegieka om g
14:27:47 <ehird> tdcaoe rk sbmue lh ittlw lm tbhia Diuekgn tbrJkIiegieka om gt
14:27:49 <ehird> dcaoe rk sbmue lh ittlw lm tbhia Diuekgn tbrJkIiegieka om gt
14:27:51 <ehird> dcaoe rk sbmue lh ittlw lm tbhia Diuekgn tbrJkIiegieka om gt
14:27:53 <ehird> dcaoe rk sbmua lh i tlw lm tehia Diuekgn tbJrkIiegeika om gt
14:27:55 <ehird> dcaoe rk sbmuatlh i tlw lm tehia Diuekgn tbJrkIiegeika om g
14:27:57 <ehird> tdcaoe kr bsmuethl ittlw lm behia Diuekgn tbJrkIiegeika om ngt
14:28:10 <fax> that is not real words
14:28:22 <ehird> fax: that's the result of trying to type real words into this thing
14:28:57 <ehird> oklopol: the best part is that when you backspace, which letters you typed when matter
14:29:03 <ehird> Helo can turn into Ho
14:29:07 <ehird> just by backspacing
14:30:53 <ehird> oh, and when you overstep the initial delay and mangle your first word
14:30:59 <ehird> oklopol: you should totally try this up
14:31:42 <ehird> How many peopHleo w amarney p eeopvHeleon w amasakrneyi ngp eteohpve Helqeonu
14:31:42 <ehird> w aemassaktrneyi ingpo netseohp vet Helhqoneatu w aemawsseaktr nneyi inegpo
14:31:43 <ehird> neetdseoh p vet tHeolqhoena tu wa s aekmawsse atktr noneyi ineagpo nedetdseo
14:31:43 <ehird> h vp veat tHeolqhnoenac etu wa s aeokmaswse autkt rrn oneyi sineagpoo nedcet
14:31:43 <ehird> dseoh vp iveaet tHetolqhnoenac yetu wa s aeokmasws?e autk t rrTn oneyi h sinea
14:31:44 <ehird> gpoao t nedcetdseiohv p iveaset tH etolqhnwoaenc hyetu wa s aaeoktmaw ss?e au
14:31:45 <ehird> tk t rrITn onye i h sinweagpaooo u t nedcetdseiohl vp ivedas et tH etlolqhniwona
14:31:46 <oklopol> maybe i'll try it at some point
14:31:47 <ehird> ec hyetu wa s kaeaeokmta w ss?e auttk to rrITn on ye i h sinweagkpnaooo u t no
14:31:49 <ehird> edcetdwseiohl vp ived.as et tH etlolqhniwonaechyetu wa s kaeaeoktm w ss?e autt
14:31:51 <ehird> k to rrTn on y ei h siweakgpnaooo u t noecetdwseihol vp iveda.s t tH etlolqhniwo
14:31:53 <ehird> naehyetu wa s kaeaeoktm w sse uttkto rTon y ih swakgpnaoo necetdwseihol vp i
14:31:55 <ehird> veda.s t tH etlolqhniwoenahye wtua s kaeaeoktm w sse utkto rTon y ih iakgnaoo
14:31:57 <ehird> cetdwehol v ieda.t H ellqniwenhye twa s keaoktw s etko n y hakncedwhol ida Helni
14:31:59 <ehird> nheytwa eok wsetko n y hraknaoceldwhol ieda Heylhnlinheytwa eok swse tko rn y
14:32:01 <ehird> t h ragnao celdwehonl iveda Hetwlhniwonheytwa eok swse tko rn yet h ragnao celw
14:32:03 <ehird> dehonlvive.a Hetwlhn
14:34:11 <ehird> oklopol: you just know you can't do it
14:36:54 <Deewiant> Looks like my typing with this keyboard
14:37:14 <ehird> Deewiant: alpscopyfag!
14:37:23 <ehird> keyboard switch wars do not allow for catchy insults.
14:37:38 <ehird> The Zero are ALPS copies
14:37:50 <ehird> Deewiant: Oh you mean the insult thing
14:38:01 <ehird> "Fucking bucklingspringsexual."
14:38:17 <ehird> Ooh, there is one though: ruberDUMBER.
14:42:27 <fax> I thought I was unusual for using colemak :D
14:50:10 <ehird> Deewiant, the alpscopyfag with a fetish for... uh... colemakism.
14:51:17 <ehird> i still can't comprehend that the realforce 87u costs $256. i mean... fucking hell
14:51:48 <ehird> fucking hexadecimal decadollar
14:58:17 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SI_prefix
14:58:22 <ehird> hexadecimal hectodollar
14:58:43 <ehird> Could modify all the prefixes like that
14:59:19 <Deewiant> Except that hecto- comes from hekaton and deka- from deka :-P
14:59:22 <ehird> Hexa, hexto, hexilo, meghex, gighex, hexra...
14:59:46 <Deewiant> (Yes I'm aware deca is correct English but meh)
15:16:00 <ehird> totally offering $0 to anyone who can type solely on IRC with this thing
15:16:06 <ehird> even pay via paypal
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15:44:14 <fax> hey SimonRC
15:44:25 <fax> was it you that drew the personifications of each programming language?
15:44:55 <fax> Scheme was a meditating guy and javascript was a kid with a catapult
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16:42:22 <fax> do you still have it? I want it :P
16:44:15 <fax> I don't know
16:50:14 <SimonRC> I might have the original, but I have no way to put it into the computer
17:02:02 <SimonRC> this server doesn't have a good network connection, so to be polite I have put it somewhere hard to find
17:02:34 <SimonRC> http://fof.durge.org/~sc/invite_only/langs.png
17:03:19 <SimonRC> if you stop wanting it, do tell
17:03:37 <SimonRC> (so 10,000 people don't download it)
17:05:14 <SimonRC> right, 17:05 is breakfast time!
17:08:00 <fax> thanks a lot!! I've got it now
17:19:06 <Gregor> Poor JavaScript gets no lurve :P
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18:34:51 <oerjan> <oklopol> did that come through?
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18:36:46 <oerjan> <oklopol> tried to solve that for fucking hours, then go to the shop, and solve in in about 2 minutes :|
18:36:57 <oerjan> that's not stupidity, that's just how intuition works.
18:37:48 <oerjan> you _need_ to take a conscious break in order for the unconscious mind to do its part of the work.
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19:06:18 <oklopol> oerjan: except that always happens when i go out.
19:06:37 <oklopol> i just think more clearly when i wal
19:07:10 <oerjan> i don't see how that contradicts what i said :)
19:07:10 <oklopol> even if i actually try less hard, or, well, perhaps, as you said, partly because of it
19:07:46 <oklopol> maybe it doesn't! anyway i need to massage humans now.
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21:22:12 <Tritonio> why did brainfuck golf stop? its website doesn't even have the results for the 2002 competition... :-|
21:23:22 <oklokok> we all switched to irl golfing
21:24:33 <oklokok> "in real life", but i use it in the meaning "real life" as well
21:35:19 <AnMaster> oklokok, IRP golfing would be fun
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22:29:50 <Deewiant> 'For example, using a search pattern of "*1*.txt" returns "longfilename.txt" because the equivalent 8.3 file name format is "LONGFI~1.TXT".' --http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/wz42302f%28loband%29.aspx
22:35:52 <fizzie> I would hope that happens only on FAT filesystems, though.
22:38:37 <Deewiant> 8.3 still exists (and is relied on by some programs) on NTFS
22:38:54 <fizzie> http://blogs.msdn.com/adioltean/archive/2005/01/27/362105.aspx and so on.
22:39:59 <Deewiant> Yep, I disabled it and ended up breaking at least MS's Keyboard Layout Creator.
22:40:37 <Deewiant> Took me a decent enough amount of time to figure out why it couldn't find an executable that was in its own installation directory.
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22:58:32 <pikhq> AnMaster: Never am.
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23:29:10 <Tritonio> does anybody known the result of the second contest?
23:29:40 <Tritonio> the one with the program that sorted the symbols in the input.
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23:47:28 <Ilari> When did LFN appear? 1995?
23:47:38 <Ilari> LFN on FAT that is...
23:48:51 <Ilari> Its 14 years since, and some programs still use SFN???
23:49:13 <pikhq> The Windows API doesn't require the usage of LFN.
23:49:44 <SimonRC> ah, bar-quad-scum-batter-billy-tea
23:50:11 <pikhq> They literally took the Win16 API and did s/2/4/ on sizeof(void*), and then added functions.
23:50:22 <SimonRC> (or should that be bar-quad-scum-patter-billy-tea?)
23:51:16 <SimonRC> pikhq: do you read OldNewThing?
23:51:25 <SimonRC> that explains much about the indows API
23:51:52 <SimonRC> there is a chapter of book online sopmewhere that talks about the epic hacks system MS invented to keep old shite working
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23:54:42 <pikhq> No, I don't. Should I?
23:55:17 <SimonRC> OldNewThing is often interesting
23:55:19 <pikhq> Hmm. I've read some posts in that blog.