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00:30:25 <Sgeo> HOW TF DID I MISS THAT THERE WAS NEW OOTS NINE HOURS AGO?!?!?
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00:39:10 <ehird> Right, I've turned into a keyboard nerd.
00:41:51 <ehird> Mechanical switches, doo doo doo doo/Maker is Cherry, doo doo doo doo/Which is better, brown or blueeeeeeee?/I don't know, who gives a who this song is crap
00:43:39 <ehird> what keyboard do you use
00:43:51 <augur> which computer keyboard?
00:44:43 <augur> an apple keyboard. i rather like it.
00:44:48 <augur> its small, minimalist.
00:45:37 <ehird> 2007 model, I presume.
00:45:57 <ehird> I don't know which they use, but it's either rubber dome or scissor-switch; as it is identical to their notebook keyboards, probably scissor-switch.
00:46:08 <ehird> augur: Heretic. Burn at the stake. You are not fit to exist in the legion of true keyboards.
00:46:26 <ehird> I'm like a gay-bashing republican, typing this from a scissor-switch x(
00:46:27 <augur> i dont care about your "true keyboards"
00:46:46 <augur> you're missing capitalization and punctuation.
00:47:12 <augur> "republican" should be capitalized
00:47:19 <augur> and you missed a period at the end of your sentence.
00:47:33 <ehird> I haven't slept for >24 hours, gimme a break.
00:47:46 <augur> thats not english!
00:47:49 <ehird> It's a wonder I'm not going "i havent slept for>24 hrs"
00:48:12 <ehird> Provides a definition for it, what nnot.
00:50:01 <ehird> Story of the butterfly: ah open window. me no likely rain. shiny, ooh, is that a fruit on it, no, looks like plastic, anyway, oh, what's this little slot next to the huge hard brick *promptly falls down* i will just sit here now
00:50:09 <augur> OS X is using american english
00:50:12 <augur> you're not american
00:50:15 <ehird> I set it to British English.
00:50:29 <ehird> Not in the way you're thinking.
00:50:44 <ehird> System Preferences → International → Drag "British English" to the top.
00:50:49 <ehird> Not changing the keyboard layout.
00:51:04 <ehird> Anyway, I don't give a fuck.
00:51:07 <augur> actually i was wrong
00:51:15 <augur> "a short putt in golf"
00:51:17 <ehird> I just prefer British spelling in most cases, it flows better.
00:51:20 <augur> or "something easily achieved or won"
00:51:30 <augur> it is not, however, a standard accepted contraction of "give me"
00:51:51 <ehird> Have you considered that there is a difference between a prescriptivist and someone who uses punctuation and capitalisataiton?
00:51:59 <augur> ofcourse, it is an overwhelmingly COMMON contraction of "give me", but that doesnt matter
00:52:06 <augur> have you considered that there isnt?
00:52:21 <ehird> I guess Language Log is written by a prescriptivist.
00:52:24 <ehird> (You're a dumbass, btw.)
00:52:53 <augur> ofcourse theres a difference between using punctuation and capitalization, but you're not merely using them
00:52:59 <augur> you apparently complain when i _dont_ use them
00:53:07 <augur> which /is/ prescriptivism.
00:53:12 <ehird> Yes, because your text takes longer for me to read that way.
00:53:15 <augur> of the most yawningly facile sort, ofcourse
00:53:20 <augur> oh bullshit it does not you liar
00:53:26 <ehird> "gtg lol kthx2u ;)" is also overwhelmingly common, but it is not readable.
00:53:29 <ehird> augur: I am not lying.
00:53:30 <augur> you're just a little twat
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02:13:31 <ehird> Now that I know all 'bout keyboards, time to research MICE!
02:16:19 * Sgeo is going to try Tremulous
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03:32:38 <zzo38> I invented a CPU architecture, called 16X, with bytes that are 16-bits long.
03:32:42 <zzo38> gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net:70/0textfile/processor/16x.cpu
03:36:58 <ehird> Can't use gopher links.
03:37:45 <zzo38> Just use echo textfile/processor/16x.cpu | nc zzo38computer.cjb.net 70 > 16x.cpu.txt
03:38:19 <ehird> Long instructions; I like long instructions.
03:38:43 <ehird> After a 15-second skim, I like this.
03:40:02 <ehird> zzo38: Is HOAX named that intentionally? :)
03:40:24 <zzo38> It is actually a abbreviation for "High Octet AX"
03:40:54 <ehird> Hmm. It occurs to me that a major blocker for switching to Macs is that there is no elegant, usable, Mac-like Gopher software for OS X!
03:41:15 <ehird> How can I be using such a useless OS? It's practically a toy now that I realise this lack :-D
03:41:47 <zzo38> Really, that makes it completely useless?
03:41:59 <ehird> Absolutely, I'm sure you'll agree.
03:42:12 <ehird> I thought the lack of a Commodore 64 emulator by default was crippling enough!
03:42:50 <zzo38> And I'm sure some such software must exist. Even if it doesn't, it is UNIX based which means netcat is usable for gopher (and many other protocols too, such as whois, finger, etc.)
03:42:54 <ehird> http://gopher.floodgap.com/gopher/gw?a=gopher%3A%2F%2Fzzo38computer.cjb.net%3A70%2F works, btw.
03:43:15 <ehird> zzo38: I don't think there's any OS X gopher software as opposed to stuff depending on you running the X11 server application
03:43:19 <ehird> Would be fun to write
03:43:37 <ehird> Maybe I'll have extensions so I can be cool like Firefox and support your silly fun Gopher scripting stuff.
03:43:46 <zzo38> There's also bashgopher, which works in any system with bash (even MinGW)
03:44:00 <zzo38> There is a extension for Firefox to support gopher protocol better, called Overbite.
03:44:16 <ehird> Overbite is from the same people as that gopher/http bridge.
03:44:45 <ehird> But honestly, how on earth can we expect Mac users to navigate Gopher without a sleek, hand-crafted point-and-click interface?!
03:45:14 <ehird> I mean, what does Steve Jobs do when he wants to consider switching to your new CPU architecture, eh? :-P
03:45:50 <zzo38> Steve Jobs doesn't need to switch to my new CPU architecture. It is just a hobby, like Magic-1 was made just because they wanted to and no other use.
03:46:15 <ehird> You can't rule out the possibility.
03:46:19 <zzo38> But, gopher is easily accessed without any dedicated client using the UNIX command-line, even though that isn't point-click (WIMP) interface.
03:46:30 <ehird> I'm joking about all of this, by the way
03:46:37 <ehird> Apart from the actually making it part; that'd be vaguely amusing.
03:47:06 <zzo38> Well, ya, of course.
03:47:39 <ehird> Gopher + the Cocoa API even gives the oh-so-catchy name Gophocoa.
03:48:25 <zzo38> (I use Vonkeror for gopher browsing, it is a web-browser with gopher support built-in, too, but anything else works just as well)
03:48:46 <zzo38> Yes, I guess, if a gopher client is made with Cocoa API then it should be called Gophocoa, for this purpose!
03:49:07 <ehird> I keep mentally tripping over Gophocoa and pronouncing it Gophococoa :-P
03:49:10 <zzo38> Since I wrote Bash Gopher, now I also have to write Zeux Gopher and Frob Gopher.
03:49:31 <ehird> So, from the "echo textfile/processor/16x.cpu | nc zzo38computer.cjb.net 70" line, I assume that Gopher's only command is "get this file"?
03:49:44 <zzo38> Yes, that is gopher's only command.
03:49:52 <ehird> Nice and simple. What's the index called?
03:50:05 <zzo38> The root directory index is just send a blank line.
03:50:14 <ehird> Heh, I figured that out a second before you said it
03:50:22 <ehird> There's extensions like being able to submit form input or whatever, isn't there?
03:50:50 <zzo38> Yes, there is Gopher+ ASK forms. However, it isn't common, and it is completely optional, like it should be.
03:51:29 <ehird> As my sleep-deprived self inches closer and closer to inevitable sleep, I guess I have nothing better to do than to write a Gopher index parser.
03:51:32 <zzo38> Vonkeror supports ASK forms, however not many sites use it, and I don't use them myself either.
03:52:21 <ehird> Apart from the first character on the line (what's the difference between 1 and h? does h mean non-gopher link?) the directory list format seems extremely simple - name<TAB>directory<TAB>server<TAB>port
03:53:33 <zzo38> However, I have been thinking of another completely optional feature, a simpler way to submit form data, called "editable gopher". After the selector string, instead of a CRLF you put a STX character, followed by the data to send and a EOT at the end. The old version is taken from just doing a normal request, and then you edit it in a text editor and send it this way. You should be able to easily write a short shell-script to add these headers
03:54:04 <ehird> zzo38: I suggest encoding end-of-lines instead
03:54:06 <ehird> and ending with CRLF
03:54:11 <ehird> That way, it's backwards-compatible
03:54:21 <ehird> (Just shows up as a ridiculous filename to unsupporting servers if you do thaht)
03:54:23 <zzo38> The first character on the line is the type code. 1 is menu, 0 is plain text, h is HTML (not commonly used, and not recomended for most purposes), 7 is query, etc
03:55:00 <zzo38> The common ones are 1 0 7 9 which should be supported by the simplest clients. 9 is download binary file
03:55:21 <zzo38> If the gopher client is built-in to a web browser, the h type should also be supported, and also g and I types (g=GIF image, I=any image)
03:55:39 <ehird> Anyway, I assume the first character is only useful for e.g. displaying an icon relevant to that type?
03:55:43 <zzo38> A query is, after the selector string you send a TAB followed by the query text (a single line of text input from the user)
03:55:47 <ehird> Because you'd infer any types from the contents of the file you got back, presumably.
03:56:01 <ehird> Otherwise, gopher:// links could differ from clicking links, which would be Freaky.
03:56:04 <zzo38> No, the first character is used also for the client to know what type of file it is.
03:56:13 <ehird> Oh, gopher links include the type, don't they?
03:56:25 <zzo38> After the host:port, you put the / and the type code, and then the selector string.
03:56:38 <zzo38> That's the format of a gopher URL.
03:56:55 * ehird briefly considers writing this in Objective-C for That Authentic Mac Taste, remembers Cocoa's string handling functions, decides to use Python instead
03:57:42 <ehird> Why are all the GUI development thingies so intimidating?
03:58:15 <zzo38> I don't know why that is.
03:59:30 <zzo38> And, as it turns out, I am also playing a pinball game at this time, whenever I am not typing, I am playing pinball game. It is a flipperless pinball game called "Jiggle Box", and with a few changes I have made to it, I think it is pretty good, I like it like this.
03:59:46 <zzo38> Have you ever played any kind of flipperless pinball games?
03:59:51 <ehird> Nope; how does that work?
04:00:41 <zzo38> Basically it is just a pinball game, but without flippers. So the only control is launching and bumping. With flippered games you have lauching, bumping, and flipping.
04:00:59 <zzo38> And often also rotating lights in flippered games.
04:01:02 <Gregor> BECAUSE YOU TOUCH YOURSELF AT NIGHT.'
04:01:18 <Gregor> Bleh, I'm lagged again, aren't I :P
04:01:33 <Gregor> Yup, horribly lagged. My joke is horrendously mistimed.
04:01:51 <ehird> # Copyright __MyCompanyName__ 2009. All rights reserved.
04:01:52 <ehird> ↑ Xcode sure does make some assumptions about the opensourceness of the software I'm writing, and my employment status.
04:02:21 <zzo38> Just change the templates if either or both assumptions are wrong.
04:02:34 <Gregor> I work for __MyCompanyName__ inc.
04:02:35 <ehird> Yeah; not sure where so I just changed it in the file.
04:02:45 <ehird> Oh, the joys of reverse DNS naming: "com.yourcompany.Gophocoa".
04:03:08 <ehird> Guess I'll make a PURL.
04:04:37 <zzo38> Jiggle Box generally gives you nine balls, but there is a hole that causes immediate Game Over if you get the ball in there. Hitting all the drop targets will change it to 500 points instead, but once you get that, it will change back to Game Over.
04:05:10 <ehird> Temporarily redirected to http://purple.com/!
04:05:56 <zzo38> What's temporarily redirected?
04:06:14 <zzo38> Why is it temporarily redirected?
04:06:22 <ehird> Because I don't have a site to point it to, and purple.com is fun.
04:06:26 <ehird> I need a reverse-DNS string to identify Gophocoa to OS X.
04:06:30 <ehird> So I'l getting a PURL
04:06:33 <ehird> (http://purl.org/)
04:07:46 <ehird> Excellent, I now have http://purl.org/net/gophocoa, i.e. org.purl.net.gophocoa
04:08:06 <Gregor> First time I'd gone to purple.com
04:08:11 <Gregor> That is indeed purple.
04:08:16 <ehird> You missed the link!
04:08:16 <Gregor> I question the need for /purple.html
04:08:19 <ehird> TRY AGAIN YOU FAIL AT PURPLE
04:09:36 <ehird> I hereby declare Xcode with Python + PyObjC: NOT ENTIRELY HORRIFIC!
04:09:42 <ehird> Gregor: Don't miss the Purple Game!
04:10:06 <ehird> You know, I'm fairly sure MainMenu.xib shouldn't be my main application window thingy
04:11:33 <ehird> Hmm, it sure will be fun attempting to draw a gopher icon.
04:12:28 <Gregor> I CAN'T PROVE THAT THERE'S NOT
04:12:34 <ehird> I'm trying to think of a single preference a Gopher app that obeys the general user interface expectations could reasonably have
04:12:40 <ehird> I can think of one: homepage
04:12:45 <ehird> MAYBE, at a stretch, let you configure colours.
04:13:07 <ehird> Gregor: http://www.purple.com/availability.html
04:13:31 <Gregor> I DO have a spare $750K lying around.
04:14:05 <zzo38> Yes, homepage is a good one. You might also want to allow the homepage to be a gopher menu file loaded from the local file-system, in case you want bookmarks and stuff like that.
04:14:13 <zzo38> Some gopher clients do that.
04:14:28 <ehird> zzo38: I'll be registering gopher:// as a protocol with Mac OS X, so just point it at a file:// instead and all will go swwimingly
04:14:43 <ehird> If you point it at an http:// it'll probably open in Safari every time you start Gophocoa up :P
04:14:48 <ehird> zzo38: What file extension do you think I should use for gopher menus? Something like .gophermenu?
04:14:53 <ehird> I don't have to obey 8.3.
04:15:05 <ehird> And can't think of anything more cutesy than .gophermenu.
04:15:11 <zzo38> I have used .go4 for gopher menus, and I have seen a few others use that too. But you don't have to.
04:15:38 <ehird> Who else does that? If it's common at all I'll adopt it
04:16:16 * ehird decides that the Format menu, including Show Fonts and Show Colors, will be *absolutely* useless unless someone invents rich text Gopher form fields.
04:16:21 * ehird dearly hopes nobody ever does that, and so nukes it
04:16:46 <zzo38> But you might consider using .go4. I have only seen one other people or group using it, other than myself. Other than that I don't know if it is at all common. But I have never heard of any other extensions for gopher menu files, so that is just what I use.
04:17:18 <Sgeo> How do I get cron to stop mailing me?
04:17:52 * ehird attempts to find an application on his system with no help menu in a desperate attempt to justify his laziness in assuming that he is so good at interface design nobody will ever need help
04:18:01 <zzo38> I doublt anyone would invent rich text Gopher form fields, but even if someone does, it is still a completely optional feature, like all extensions to the gopher protocol are.
04:18:17 <ehird> EVEN THE BUILT IN CHESS APPLICATION HAS HELP!!
04:18:41 <zzo38> O, another thing in gopher menus: Type i is a information text displayed on the menu but is not a link to anything.
04:18:59 <ehird> Hmm, some applications just open a web page or whatever
04:19:08 <ehird> I'll just make the help open a page on the gophersite for it, I guess
04:19:24 <Sgeo> ehird, with my (possibly never arriving) SL product, my goal is that users never need to look at the manual. The product will guild them
04:20:05 <ehird> Sgeo: This can work with incredibly minimal, professional and inspired GUI design. It cannot work inside a strange virtual reality where things don't obey normal rules even with such skill.
04:20:19 <ehird> Maybe you should come out and admit that you're too lazy to write a manual like me.
04:20:48 * ehird ditches File -> Open Recent; a full history is way better
04:20:51 <Sgeo> But I will write a manual, or at least try to
04:21:03 <Sgeo> It's just I want to make relying on it unneeded
04:21:07 <Sgeo> I am assuming that users read
04:22:01 <ehird> zzo38: Do you think I should have tabs? Seems rather silly for a Gopher browser.
04:22:37 <zzo38> Have tabs if you want to. You don't have to. Make that decision by yourself.
04:22:48 * oerjan would rather assume that users ignore all text which is not immediately needed while it is being displayed
04:23:20 <Sgeo> oerjan, there's no way for me to make an intuitive interface
04:23:50 <oerjan> but what do i know, i'm not really a programmer :)
04:23:51 <Sgeo> Hold on, let me show you what it has to look like. It's either this, or asking for stuff to be typed in
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04:25:22 <oerjan> well that may be an assumption too. i just thought that once they get desperate because they don't know how to do something, they _might_ read help if it is currently visible on screen.
04:25:43 * ehird decides that Revert to Saved is a useless operation if you can't edit.
04:25:54 <ehird> ...and I'm not planning on making a Gopher website maker any time soon
04:25:59 <oerjan> (not general help, but help on what they are currently desperate about)
04:27:04 <zzo38> You *might* have an editor for the bookmarks file, but that's probably about all you would need.
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04:28:11 <Sgeo> http://imgur.com/Ruodp.png
04:28:34 <Sgeo> All screens in my product must look something like that (well, actually, the style in SL is a bit different)
04:28:49 <ehird> zzo38: Bookmark editor is rather simpler, though
04:29:00 <Gregor> Well, unless the buttons actually have to say "B10" etc.
04:29:02 <ehird> "Append one line of very rigid contents" vs "remove one specific line".
04:29:13 <Sgeo> I can't get rid of the Ignore
04:29:40 <zzo38> Yes, bookmark editor would be simple. Just one menu.
04:29:44 <Gregor> OK, that's kind of crummy.
04:30:03 <Sgeo> How am I supposed to design my product to be easy to use without reading if they have to go through this?
04:30:21 <ehird> zzo38: Well, actually, it'd be a dialog with a list of them that you select and two buttons, - and + (+ adds an empty one with the location field focused and you can tab to the title).
04:30:22 <Sgeo> (Although in SL, the Ignore button's smaller)
04:30:31 <ehird> That'd also let you change titles, etc.
04:30:34 <Sgeo> And I think everyone knows what it does by now
04:30:40 <ehird> And also the uber-simple "bookmark this page", of course.
04:31:13 <zzo38> Yes, "bookmark this page" is of course a useful feature to have.
04:31:20 <Sgeo> Oh, and see the order? I can't make, say, B6 not be there
04:31:26 <Sgeo> and leave B7 on stay
04:32:02 <Sgeo> I can make some of them blank, but I can't make it disappear altogether. And even blank ones close out, so I'd have to have it re-open
04:33:25 <zzo38> But, a bookmark editor would basically should have add, remove, edit, move-up, move-down. And then five fields, type, title, selector, host, port. Type can be 1 by default, selector can be blank by default, port can be 70 by default. In most cases, only the hostname would ever have to be typed in. (You can also make the title default to the hostname)
04:34:45 <zzo38> One bookmarks file is good enough.
04:36:08 <ehird> zzo38: All those extra fields can simply be replaced by a URL
04:36:23 <ehird> That'd let you put http:// links in your links-homepage-bookmark-thingy, too.
04:37:03 <zzo38> Yes, that will work too.
04:37:18 <ehird> Sigh, I messed up. This should have been done as an NSDocument app.
04:37:27 <ehird> Delete, rego; thankfully I didn't actually do much.
04:37:51 <zzo38> What does NSDocument app mean, anyways? I really don't know much about Macintosh computers.
04:38:04 <ehird> NSDocument is a part of the system APIs. It's basically, well, a document.
04:38:17 <ehird> An NSDocument application is just an application designed for showing and manipulating new types of NSDocument.
04:38:26 <ehird> So you get things like save, open, undo and the like for free if you make your type a kind of NSDocument.
04:38:43 <ehird> I'm totally new to this too.
04:39:02 <zzo38> Ah, OK. You are new to this too. Well, at least you can learn.
04:40:21 <ehird> Heh, the default about window is fun... "Engineering: Some people / Human Interface Design: Some other people / Testing: Hopefully not nobody / Documentation: Whoever / With special thanks to: Mom"
04:42:04 <oerjan> You'd think they'd put Hopefully not nobody on Documentation too...
04:42:48 <ehird> "Help isn’t available for Gophocoa."
04:42:55 <ehird> In Gopher, no-one can hear you scream.
04:43:24 <zzo38> (Unless you use audio file types)
04:44:43 <oerjan> Gophocoa: The first Gopher client to be a crime against humanity!
04:46:20 <zzo38> How is it a crime against humanity?
04:46:52 <oerjan> something about screams
04:47:16 <ehird> How am I still vaguely awake? I must have been awake 30 hours now.
04:47:56 <Sgeo> ehird, even I don't do that.
04:47:59 <ehird> I'm on the drug of LIFE, baby!
04:48:24 <oerjan> ehird: you know that has a 100% lethality rate, right?
04:49:26 * ehird ponders if he's supposed to rename GophocoaDocument to something sane, like GopherPage.
04:49:41 * ehird ponders further if he's allowed to make subclasses of it, e.g. GopherMenu.
04:49:55 <ehird> Reading the documentation sure would help!
04:49:56 <oerjan> it's hard not to pronounce that last o as a y
04:52:21 <ehird> I'm clearly missing something here.
04:53:02 <ehird> that's a ridiculously tenuous pun.
04:54:40 <ehird> okay, first thing... let's give
04:54:47 <zzo38> I have once made a pinball game where the reels had 152 positions each, and there were 7 reels in the game.
04:54:57 <ehird> okay, I think I need a separate document type
04:54:59 <ehird> for each type I handle
04:55:12 <ehird> except a lot of gopher documents are plain .txt
04:55:21 <ehird> so I'm not sure I should claim I know the right class for .txt...
04:57:11 <ehird> maybe I should distract myself by making a pretty icon :)
04:58:14 <ehird> role: editor/viewer/shell/none
04:58:18 * ehird makes that viewer, just to see
04:58:28 <ehird> Uncaught Exception:
04:58:28 <ehird> Window: target of tracking rect doesnt understand -mouseEntered: or -mouseExited messages
04:58:29 <ehird> The stack backtrace has been logged to the console.
05:00:23 <ehird> way too complex for my current awakeness
05:06:14 <ehird> zzo38: do any pages on zzo38computer gopher have anything fancy other than the simple get-page-back?
05:06:19 <ehird> scripting doesn't count, it's client-side
05:07:01 <zzo38> Yes, some have queries.
05:07:36 <zzo38> Anything with type 7 has query parameters. They are, the weather reports, movie times, phlog journal.
05:08:59 <ehird> hmm i see, i think
05:09:11 <zzo38> They give you weather reports and movie times for your area. The phlog journal has a searching, and also a comment function, too! And there is a calendar on the phlog software.
05:09:13 <ehird> could use that to make a silly gopher-twitter xD
05:09:18 <ehird> I meant the queries themselves
05:09:25 <zzo38> Yes, I gues you could
05:13:25 <zzo38> The IRC client I made has a add-on for Twitter, but it is read-only. Anyone who has a account with Twitter, if you want to, might fix the add-on to do write access to Twitter, too.
05:14:33 <ehird> hmm... how do you use finger as a gopher client, again?
05:15:10 <zzo38> Just give the selector as the parameter and put 70 as the port number. It won't parse menus, but it works for text files.
05:15:39 <zzo38> Using a gopher client to connect to finger works better, just put type 0
05:15:43 <ehird> finger: zzo38computer.cjb.net:70: nodename nor servname provided, or not known
05:15:54 <ehird> [~]$ finger textfile/processor/16x.cpu@zzo38computer.cjb.net
05:15:54 <ehird> [zzo38computer.cjb.net]
05:16:17 <zzo38> You need to give the port number. I'm not sure how to put a port number for finger
05:16:54 <zzo38> If you can't give a port number, then using the finger command to access gopher sites simply won't work.
05:17:20 <zzo38> Did you try: man finger
05:18:05 <zzo38> Some Italian cookies, they don't use man finger, but some of the cookies are called lady finger!
05:18:37 <zzo38> (My grandparents are Italian, so they can know)
05:25:07 * Sgeo decides to poke ehird about why sqlite might not be so good
05:25:30 <ehird> SQLite is fine as long as only one thing will ever, ever want to write to the DB at once.
05:25:45 <zzo38> Sgeo: Do *you* like the 16X CPU? Do you have a comment of it?
05:26:04 <Sgeo> ehird, if more than one thing tries, is the db broken, or does it just not work due to file locks?
05:26:43 <Sgeo> zzo38, ehird knows about, and has an opinion on, everything computer related.
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08:39:06 <fizzie> You can do sort-of concurrency even with SQLite by splitting the DB into multiple pieces, but that's not really the use case it's designed for.
08:41:12 <fizzie> It has some sort of built-in support for showing multiple files as a single logical database, if I recall correctly.
08:41:20 <fizzie> (And those files have independent locking.)
08:41:28 <augur> ive figured out a little algorithm that, if given a set of sentences with many shared words, and with no word boundaries, will discover those word boundaries solely by statistics.
08:43:24 <fizzie> I think our Morfessor algorithm -- http://www.cis.hut.fi/projects/morpho/ -- would actually also sort of partially do that, by accident, given the right sort of parameters.
08:43:41 <augur> fizzie: discover word boundaries?
08:44:17 <fizzie> Well, I work there, so it's "our" theoretically; I don't have much to do with it though.
08:44:53 <augur> its a nice little algorithm i came up with. pretty simple.
08:46:00 <fizzie> Well, I *would*, but I need to be in a bus in something like 10 minutes, so this is not really the time. But if you want to blab it here, I can logread it later. :p
08:46:15 <augur> nah let me know later and ill tell you all about it
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10:40:31 <oklopol> so i hear there was a course in lojban in helsinki uni
10:51:12 <Deewiant> I heard it with my ears as well! What a coincidence
10:53:35 <oklopol> i think i'm number dyslexic or something, if i'm even slightly tired, i have to deduce what "at least as many as" means by picturing a bijection between two sets
10:54:04 <oklopol> i mean i somehow think turning that into an inequation should be trivial :D
10:54:50 <oklopol> also orders of implication are hard, and i have just memorized a few simple rules for them; but that's something everyone else fails at much more
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10:56:18 <oklopol> hello adam_d, are your implications in order
10:59:39 <oklopol> i just realized my pants have a gigantic hole between my legs
11:00:22 <oklopol> i should probably glue them together
11:04:44 <olsner> why would you want to glue your legs together?
11:05:29 <oklopol> no no i don't mean my pants own my ass, i mean there's a hole *in* my pants
11:05:34 <oklopol> admittedly i wasn't being very clear
11:05:56 <oklopol> oh actually yours was about what i was referring to
11:06:14 <oklopol> i'll just blame english for being stupid
11:06:26 <oklopol> (even though it was my error)
11:08:21 <olsner> also, when you have a hole in your pants, do you glue them (the pants) or it (the hole) together?
11:09:30 <oklopol> err right, i didn't have an error
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11:09:34 <oklopol> i meant glue my pants together
11:11:52 <oklopol> Deewiant: it's only a coincidence if it's not true, methinks
11:12:00 <oklopol> are you implying someone lied to me
11:13:42 <oklopol> huh, there's an unlambda reference in the homework
11:14:15 <oklopol> "aSS" couldn't possibly be a coincidence
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11:15:14 <oklopol> of course given the starting variable is always S, and the terminals are usually {a, b}, i suppose there might be a small chance
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17:06:13 <oerjan> 03:13:42 <oklopol> huh, there's an unlambda reference in the homework
17:06:14 <oerjan> 03:14:15 <oklopol> "aSS" couldn't possibly be a coincidence
17:06:21 <oerjan> underload, oklopol. underload.
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17:18:51 <oerjan> AnMaster: i wonder if there is a reason why the balrog didn't use his fire. if so, it probably involves a horrible pun.
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17:46:25 <oklopol> oerjan: that seems to be something i'm incapable of learning.
17:49:14 <oklopol> that seems to be my internal representation, so it would make sense
17:49:52 <oklopol> then my scientific conclusion is it's because we're finnish.
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20:40:55 <SimonRC> write a Haskell infinite heap implementation that is worse than one I had read not a few hours before
20:41:29 <SimonRC> attempt to apply a functional design pattern (fold) in Java (went rather nicely IMO)
20:41:59 <SimonRC> resisted attempts by my company to make me more managery
20:43:06 <Sgeo> I know that I'd turn down any promotion to management
20:43:42 <SimonRC> from what I have heard, if computer programs were written the way programmers were promoted, there would be no such thing as an OS or a dynamically-shared library
20:44:08 <SimonRC> well, they were still keeping me quite close to the dev side of the job so it wasn't too bad
20:44:21 * oklopol programmed to day for the first time in about a month
20:44:24 <SimonRC> what diturbs me more is the claims that I will want to become one some day
20:44:41 <SimonRC> I thought you lot were creating shit all the time?
20:45:36 <oklopol> there's this big computation & discrete shit branch in our math dep
20:45:51 <SimonRC> all you bloody people that are younger than me and more motivated than me
20:45:54 <oklopol> proving things undecidable sounds like something i could do all my life
20:46:36 <Gregor> oklopol: That life sounds depressing :p
20:47:07 <oklopol> i haven't liked programming for a while now, too great a work/thinking ratio
20:47:46 <oklopol> Gregor: well i might do some algebra too, occasionally!
20:48:16 <oklopol> i wrote a program that calculates determinants in python, because i didn't feel like doing them manually, and using a preexisting prog feels like cheating when it's homework.
20:48:39 <SimonRC> determinants are those things that do everything, right?
20:49:06 <Gregor> Determinants solve all problems.
20:49:18 <Gregor> I had a toothache last week, but it's OK now, I calculated the determinant.
20:49:26 <SimonRC> like, wanna tell if a certain set of vectors can be used to make a coordinate system? stick them all together into a square and find the determinant
20:49:40 <oklopol> more like see whether it's zero
20:50:01 <SimonRC> wanna know if some linear simultaneous equations have a unique solution? Express them as a matrix and find the determinant
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20:50:13 <oklopol> if it's zero, some of the vectors are linearly dependent
20:50:34 <SimonRC> actually those problems are obviously the same thing now I think about it
20:52:19 <Deewiant> If they weren't related finding the determinant wouldn't work :-P
20:52:41 * SimonRC is in the mood for hiding hard problems in evil places
20:52:45 * Sgeo melts at music videos on YouTube that have HQ or HD
20:53:12 <SimonRC> like asking a foreigner to fill in the missing english nouns in this table:
20:54:14 <Gregor> However, the answers are: unclaunt, man-cousin, sex-cousin
20:54:50 <oklopol> based on Gregor's answer, not
20:55:20 <oklopol> right, because a foreigner wouldn't realize they don't exist, but would assume they don't know them
20:55:31 <oklopol> i would assume i don't know them in finnish as well
20:55:34 <SimonRC> or maybe asking for the formulae for area of rectangle, preimeter of rectangle, area of circle, perimeter of circle, area of triangle, perimeter of triangle, area of elipse, perimeter of elipse
20:55:52 <oklopol> because the family relation terms suck, and aren't worth knowing
20:56:19 <SimonRC> (IIRC, the last one can only be expressed as an unsolvable integral)
20:57:13 <oklopol> lengths of curves seem to get unsolvable very easily
20:57:40 <Deewiant> veli sisko sisarus / isä äiti vanhempi / eno/setä täti ??? / ??? ??? serkku/orpana/nepas
20:58:01 <Deewiant> Seems the same ones don't exist in Finnish either :-/
20:58:30 <oklopol> i've never heard "orpana/nepas".
20:58:45 <SimonRC> "Generalising the solution to 3 bodies is left as an exercise to the sudent."
20:58:53 <Deewiant> Mother's/father's side respectively
20:58:53 <oklopol> and i have no idea which is eno and which is set
20:59:04 <Deewiant> Mother's/father's side respectively for them as well
20:59:49 <oklopol> oh, right, i don't have set's, should be pretty easy to remember
21:00:19 <oklopol> i have an enormous amount of enos though
21:00:33 <oklopol> or should i say enough of them
21:00:46 <SimonRC> TAoCP has a ... variety of dificulties of questions in it.
21:02:18 <SimonRC> they range from taking 1 person 1 minute of high-school maths ... to thousands of professional mathematicians on-and off for centuries
21:02:46 <SimonRC> (e.g. he poses the proof of Fermat's last theorem in some editions)
21:03:23 <oklopol> i think it's an example of a problem whose challenge rating had to be lowered
21:03:53 <oklopol> i mean given as an example of such a problem in the book
21:06:03 <oklopol> at least fermat's last theorem is HM45
21:06:12 <SimonRC> oklopol: do you have the edition that smells weird?
21:06:34 <oklopol> i don't really have a traditional sense of smell
21:07:07 <oklopol> doesn't smell like anything, maybe beer?
21:07:23 <oklopol> by non-traditional i mean, well, for instance tuna smells exactly like urine to me
21:07:43 <oklopol> similarly sewage often smells like delicious sausages
21:07:47 <SimonRC> I remember noticing that my edition smelt odd...
21:07:59 <oklopol> and usually things don't smell like anything
21:08:01 <SimonRC> I checked, and it turns out to be printed on acid-free paper
21:09:43 <oklopol> one of the lecture notes, i thought, smelled like beauty, showed (or its equivalent for smelling) it to my gf, turned out it smelled like the dog food under which it had lied for some time
21:09:58 <oklopol> beauty, as in oh my god i could smell this all day
21:10:11 <oklopol> and i don't even like that dog food sort
21:10:27 <oklopol> usually the ones that are supposedly delicious dog snacks really taste like crap
21:10:34 <oklopol> and it's the actual food that's good
21:18:53 <oklopol> actually just ate some of the dog food because i didn't have any human food... after a while they start tasting like porridge
21:19:59 <Gregor> `addquote <oklopol> actually just ate some of the dog food because i didn't have any human food... after a while they start tasting like porridge
21:20:00 <HackEgo> 91|<oklopol> actually just ate some of the dog food because i didn't have any human food... after a while they start tasting like porridge
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21:20:54 <oklopol> you seem to consider quite a large amount of what i say worth remembering
21:22:47 <oklopol> why is everyone so gay for me :|
21:23:12 <Gregor> Because twinky European nerds turn us on.
21:24:45 <Gregor> Iansus: Your timing is impeccable if and only if you came in here to talk about weird and nonsensical subjects having nothing to do with esoteric programming.
21:25:35 <Iansus> and i'm not here for it bye
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21:27:07 <oklopol> except a girl smiled at me today, when i was talking loudly about integrals, i must be becoming more attractive to females
21:27:26 <oklopol> actually i was more like telling a funny integral story
21:27:46 <Gregor> Sure "she" was, "she" wants you.
21:28:13 <oklopol> if a girl is that cute, i don't care how many penises she has
21:28:23 <Gregor> `addquote <oklopol> if a girl is that cute, i don't care how many penises she has
21:28:25 <HackEgo> 92|<oklopol> if a girl is that cute, i don't care how many penises she has
21:31:57 <SimonRC> life would be simpler if people were only one gender
21:35:16 <SimonRC> yeah, but that doesn't need two sexes, never mind two genders
21:35:35 <Gregor> SEXUAL reproduction needs (at least) two sexes.
21:35:39 <Gregor> Otherwise it's asexual reproduction.
21:36:05 <Gregor> (Note that individuals can be of multiple sexes, and as said gender and sex aren't necessarily the same)
21:36:45 <bsmntbombdood_> well it's not like anyone says there has to be two genders
21:37:39 <Gregor> <bsmntbombdood_> well it's not like anyone says there has to be two genders <-- I guarantee you somebody has said this :P
21:37:55 <SimonRC> Gregor: surely only one sex is necessary if all gametes are interchangeable?
21:38:47 <Gregor> SimonRC: But then is that sexual reproduction? I guess we need a definition of "sexual reproduction" that isn't Earth-life-specific.
21:39:12 <SimonRC> (in Perelandra, the division of the genders is merely an aspect of a fundamental division in the universe. But then that was written by C.S. Lewis)
21:39:24 <SimonRC> Gregor: well, it does the same recombination of genes
21:39:59 <SimonRC> I think the thing that some single-celled organisms do is counted as sex, even though they don't have sexes
21:40:28 <Gregor> That's called binary fission.
21:40:30 <SimonRC> (Not bacteria. They're more like fileshares.)
21:40:52 <SimonRC> Gregor: no, some single-celled organisms merge then divide
21:41:20 <SimonRC> like our gametes, but they spend most of their lives with only one set of cromosomes
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21:47:38 <fizzie> oklopol: Also Fermat's last used to be "M50" earlier; the H prefix was added since Wiles' proof was very higher-math.
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22:02:28 <Warrigal> I would call it sexual reproduction if there's sexless sex involved.
22:27:15 <AnMaster> <SimonRC> (Not bacteria. They're more like fileshares.) <-- XD
22:32:37 <oklopol> kinda annoying how every time i try to go to sleep, i start thinking about a homework problem and solve it
22:32:54 <SimonRC> oklopol: when does it need to be done by?
22:33:36 <oklopol> i have some 50 problems for next week, first ones need to be done by tuesday
22:35:18 <oklopol> this one was to prove scramble(L) is a context-free lang if L is regular, scramble(L) being the language of all permutations of all words of L
22:36:02 <oklopol> except it becomes trivial once you think in terms of automatons
22:36:20 <oklopol> first tried to get some sorta recursive thing from a regexp
22:36:38 <oklopol> the other one is more involved, probably no use sharing
22:36:58 <oklopol> anyway should probably retry, i'm kinda half-asleep atm anyway
22:37:21 <oklopol> ...or i could watch this episode of scrubs i've seen about a hundred times
22:40:38 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood_: homework is a great way to get a steady stream of interesting math problems.
22:40:49 <oklopol> ofc if you don't like math problems, they're just a nuisance
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23:24:06 <fizzie> I wonder how much handwaving you'd need to do to prove that you get scramble(L) for a regular language L by taking the right regular grammar for it, and adding a "A -> Ba" rule for each "A -> aB" rule in it. If you can handwave that, it's quite obviously context-free.
23:25:55 <fizzie> (Well, if that indeed gives scramble(L). I just have a vague feeling it would.)
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23:57:29 <oerjan> <fizzie> I wonder how much handwaving you'd need to do to prove that you get scramble(L) for a regular language L by taking the right regular grammar for it, and adding a "A -> Ba" rule for each "A -> aB" rule in it. If you can handwave that, it's quite obviously context-free.
23:58:08 <fizzie> In case that doesn't give scramble(L), do note the disclaimer too.
23:58:09 <oerjan> my intuition is that's false
23:59:36 <oerjan> lessee, what about S -> Ta | empty, T -> Ub, U -> Sc