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00:44:52 <ehird> You know, I can install System 6 from scratch and boot into it in the time it takes Windows XP to boot up...
01:12:53 <augur> ive decided that La jetée is the film equivalent of an esolang.
01:16:21 <ehird> i've decided that adobe reader isn't bloated, if by adobe reader you mean acrobat reader 1 on macintosh system 6.
01:16:29 <ehird> we're, like, soulmates, like.
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01:57:01 <ehird> http://www.retards.org/projects/grackle68k/ twitter for system 6!
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02:22:13 <Warrigal> Yay, it's the rarely-seen other third-person singular present form of "to be".
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07:04:29 <augur> ive learned to play part of philip glass's metamorphosis 1
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07:12:08 <Gregor> augur: If you've learned part, you've learned the whole thing.
07:12:53 <augur> i just have to learn how the pieces are put together
07:13:07 <augur> its a lot of repetition, but then theres structure to the repetition
07:13:37 <augur> individual musical phrases repeat a lot, but not simply over and over
07:13:54 <Gregor> Eggzactly. It's the complex interweaving of the phrases that makes it ... well, Glass.
07:14:15 <augur> also, i discovered on my own the very beginning to the star trek theme
07:14:26 <Gregor> Which Star Trek theme?
07:14:58 <Gregor> Well, I'm going to go discover my bed.
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12:09:00 <ehird> 23:13:54 <Gregor> Eggzactly. It's the complex interweaving of the phrases that makes it ... well, Glass.
12:09:06 <ehird> from where i come from it's the sand that makes it glass.
12:09:38 <ehird> Meanwhile: landline GET
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13:03:22 <ehird> begin 644 spongy.com
13:03:22 <ehird> ML!/-$&@`H`>ZR`/N0N[N[D!U]??C0`'X]W05N7\`*<I@L02^^/_?1/K>=/C9
13:03:23 <ehird> M^]X(@/,"V<G>"'4$V>")!-[!K8L`WQCBW;4!,>V^^/^M]^,#1/7WX9($*SQ5
13:03:23 <ehird> F@]T`>PL)]GKJ:\D#<>#K!?[#==A+D\'H`JIA1W6;1>1@_LAUE,,`
13:11:04 <ehird> "You can get BE broadband on 01661833939
13:11:04 <ehird> It's probably going to be this fast:
13:11:05 <ehird> Thanks, ISP website
13:11:21 <ehird> It's going to be (null) megabits fast!
13:38:07 <ehird> hmm that's a phone number innit
13:38:43 <ehird> ooh, "833939" is nicely patternonic
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13:57:59 <ehird> Nokia lost 559 M€ following a profit of 1.09 G€.
13:58:16 <ehird> (Yes, I just used SI prefixes on currency. Bite me.)
14:03:32 * ehird decides that 1440x900 is an okay screenshots res; glanced at some screenshots of that size and you don't seem to be able to fit any less work on the screen at once (obviously there's more raw pixels)
14:04:33 <ehird> vertically at least; those 150 pixels don't seem to help much. losing 240 horizontal pixels is a bit of an ouch
14:08:32 <fizzie> Yes, they must not be overly happy with the NSN thing.
14:14:43 <ehird> "gigaeuro" sounds so awesome.
14:16:48 <ehird> "One gigayen is almost equal to five hundred and seven megarupees."
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15:46:34 <AnMaster> <ehird> ooh, "833939" is nicely patternonic <-- "patternonic"?
15:46:45 <ehird> pattonic would be a patt
15:46:48 <ehird> work it out yourself
15:47:07 <AnMaster> ehird, eh.... "pattonic" or "patternonic"?
15:47:12 <AnMaster> please decide on a spelling first
15:47:20 <ehird> you fail at reading comprehension kthxbai
15:47:46 <AnMaster> Definitions of patt on the Web:
15:47:46 <AnMaster> * The Trentino Tyrolean Autonomist Party (Partito Autonomista Trentino Tirolese, PATT) is a regionalist christian-democratic Italian political party based in Trentino.
15:47:46 <AnMaster> * Yale Nance Patt is an American professor of electrical and computer engineering at The University of Texas at Austin. ...
15:48:00 <ehird> you continue to fail to stop failing
15:48:04 <AnMaster> I guess it is related to patterns in some way though
15:50:34 <ehird> ais523: has anything happened in agora since "OFF: [IADoP] Interstellar Manifest", 12 october?
15:50:36 <ehird> anything noteworthy that is
15:51:11 <ehird> a lot of messages that i haven't read
15:51:25 <ais523> loads of NoVs against BobTHJ, most of which were invalid due to typos
15:51:43 <ais523> and loads of other general judicial stuff
15:51:48 <ais523> also a large proposal distribution
15:51:56 <ehird> hmph, have they still not got those novs done?
15:52:06 <ais523> it's felt strongly judicial, though
15:52:10 <ais523> not a lot happening except in the courts
15:52:21 <ehird> then i should have no problem marking all as read.
15:52:48 <ais523> you probably want to vote on the proposal distribution
15:53:02 <ehird> I haven't done that in a while
15:54:19 <ehird> also, can i take this opportunity to say that macintosh system 6 was cool?
16:06:00 <ehird> even acrobat reader 1 was cool on system 6.
16:06:07 <ehird> flies even emulating at 1x speed
16:06:15 <ehird> (admittedly with a faster drive backing it)
16:06:48 <AnMaster> and where did you get the system image from
16:06:52 <ehird> Mini vMac. It has no networking, though, and Basilisk II won't accept the ROM. :(
16:06:56 <ehird> AnMaster: Illegally.
16:07:14 <ehird> The Mini vMac build emulates a Macintosh Plus with 4 MiB of RAM.
16:07:27 <ehird> (http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:jPO_WD1H2kYJ:rolli.ch/MacPlus/+mac+plus+rom&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=safari has the link to the ROM.)
16:07:41 <ehird> Oh, and Mini vMac doesn't support colour.
16:07:46 <ehird> Or resolutions other than the tiny one on actual Macs.
16:08:04 <ehird> So it's good for nostalgia, but you can't go "wow, this thing was really powerful and snappy".
16:08:16 <ehird> I don't have any nostal to gia, but it's fun nonetheless.
16:08:33 <ehird> Oh, and getting files onto it is a pain; iirc OS X can read and write HFS, but I haven't tried it (not sure how to go about making a disk image).
16:09:26 <ehird> AnMaster: If you do want to play around with it: http://www.euronet.nl/users/mvdk/system_6_heaven.html
16:09:36 <ehird> Very useful resource, including a whole shitload of software.
16:10:17 <ehird> http://www.euronet.nl/users/mvdk/screens/Swedish.gif Mönster?! What monster?
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16:13:46 <ehird> Those stinking hobbitses at System 7 Today are so evil!
16:13:59 <ehird> MASTERS OF BLOAT AND DESTRUCTION RAAAAAAAARGH
16:25:19 <ehird> AnMaster: you won't believe this - Macintosh System Software 1.1 can run at 800x600
16:25:49 <ehird> this is the OS for a machine that only had one single hardware differentiation: 128 or 512 kibibytes of RAM
16:25:58 <ehird> and it runs at 800x600 without a hitch
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16:28:31 <ehird> Runs MacPaint too.
16:30:32 <ais523> `wolfram the least number not nameable in less than eleven words
16:31:24 <ais523> the computer here that's having all sorts of problems is now turning on every now and hten
16:31:29 <ais523> then turning back off again
16:31:53 <ais523> (it's intermittently booting to a blank screen with a mouse pointer in Win7)
16:32:06 <ais523> (also, it crashes whenever the screensaver would turn on, even though the screensaver is turned off)
16:32:40 <ais523> (and by crashes, I mean spins the fan at full speed for about a minute with a blank screen, then turns off)
16:34:09 * ehird drags a floppy into another floppy to see what'd happeen
16:34:14 <ehird> (Nothing, silent failure)
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16:41:14 <ehird> I'm ever so slightly tempted to acquire the highest-spec mac that can run System 6 (w/ colour display), trick it out with the most-addressable 8MiB of RAM, the most-addressable 2GiB disk, and a broadband connection, just so I can go on IRC and have an honest version string saying "WhateverIRC - Macintosh System 6.0.8, 8192 KB"
16:42:18 <ehird> (There's even some progress on a System 6 web browser... (although a few already exist))
16:47:08 <ehird> IIfx seems to be the fastest 6-faring machine.
16:47:41 <ehird> Supported up to 128MiB of RAM, which is rather pointless when you can only address 8.
16:47:55 <ais523> aargh, my computer just spun up its fan again
16:48:08 <ais523> at least, the power light isn't on, nor are any of the others
16:48:12 <ais523> although there's a red LED inside it that's lit
16:49:34 <ehird> And the IIci was the second-fastest.
16:50:04 <ehird> The IIci will probably be a *lot* easier to acquire, as the IIfx cost from $9,000 to $12,000 — in 1990-1992 dollars.
16:50:21 <ehird> Plus a lot of the additional features required special software support to take advantage of them.
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16:52:06 <ehird> Still, 40 MHz instead of 25... those fancy ASICs and coprocessors... an FPU... higher speed RAM with simultaneous read and write...
16:52:35 <ehird> It is rather tempting. But the IIci is really common and the IIfx isn't, so.
16:53:26 <ehird> ais523: have you considered that it may be a ghost
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16:54:59 <zzo38> I have found this error message occuring in a Microsoft product: "rDrebTenrsr nc RRdnrTSb SncrrebdRRdncsretrepscdogtia inte F t"
16:55:14 <ais523> that's quite an error message
16:55:55 <zzo38> To reproduce: Type in (using newlines in place of \): TYPE A\A AS INTEGER\END TYPE\DIM B.B AS A
16:55:57 <ais523> the desktop here is turning itself on for about a second every now and then for no obvious reason
16:56:05 <ais523> zzo38: in which program?
16:56:07 <zzo38> And it will appear this message.
16:56:17 <zzo38> QuickBasic Extended
16:56:26 <ais523> are you sure that isn't a corrupted copy?
16:56:38 <ais523> it looks a bit like corruption, although not that much
16:56:40 <ais523> because it's all letters
16:56:46 <ehird> Looks like interleaving messages.
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17:00:43 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: you won't believe this - Macintosh System Software 1.1 can run at 800x600 <-- why wouldn't I believe it?
17:01:05 <ehird> because it was 1984, and macintoshes only ran at one resolution for many, many years after that?
17:01:11 <ais523> 800x600 was a pretty large screen res back then
17:01:17 <ais523> 1984 is before I was born
17:01:20 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://www.euronet.nl/users/mvdk/screens/Swedish.gif Mönster?! What monster?
17:01:27 <ehird> ais523: more to the point, you couldn't plug an external monitor into macs for ages
17:01:29 <ais523> and 640x480 with as many as 16 colours was good when I was young
17:01:32 <ehird> AnMaster: it's a joke. hah a.
17:01:45 <AnMaster> ehird, I can't see anything funny in it
17:01:58 <ehird> ais523: so it's shocking that the second release (almost identical to system 1) supported 800x600
17:02:20 <ais523> futureproofing, I suppose
17:02:27 <ehird> since it was, like, 1990 when the first mac went on sale that let you plug in your own monitor, thus ending the era of 512x342
17:02:48 <ehird> ais523: but the macs that let you plug in your own monitor don't support system software 1.1! :-P
17:03:03 <ais523> and the computer just turned on again
17:03:07 <ais523> I wonder if there's a pattern here?
17:03:08 <ehird> 512x342 is a pretty good resolution
17:03:09 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe they planned that feature earlier on?
17:03:15 <ais523> I should record it in IRC so I can look back at the timestamps later
17:03:24 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm about 90% sure they didn't
17:03:34 <ehird> Anyway, obviously the emulator has to do hackery to get it to run
17:03:37 <ehird> So I doubt they coded actual support for it
17:03:41 <AnMaster> ehird, can't it go above 800x600?
17:03:45 <ehird> But the fact that they didn't hardcode it and make it break is amazing
17:03:53 <ehird> AnMaster: Basilisk II can, but I don't think it supports system 1
17:04:00 <ehird> at least with the gui
17:04:10 <zzo38> It isn't very often I found some guy who knows how to program in Forth, but yesterday I met a retired computer sciences teacher and I asked him if he knew Forth, and he does
17:04:41 <AnMaster> ehird, about basilisk II... getting a rom from a newworld doesn't work sadly.
17:04:50 <AnMaster> what with openfirmware instead
17:05:06 <ehird> Piracy. It's easy to get a Quadra rom; they're all over the plalce.
17:05:33 <zzo38> Now, where is the guy who wrote rawirc.c
17:05:54 <ehird> Anyway, people who bought the (roughly $5k in today's dollars) original Macintosh were totally fucked by Apple: three years later, 3.2 was released, which didn't support it.
17:05:55 <AnMaster> anyway, the harddrive in that old mac is so fscking loud that I hate to turn it on when I become nostalgic
17:06:14 <ehird> (And the same year as the original one the came out the 512K one did too...)
17:06:25 <ehird> AnMaster: Just use a floppy-based system
17:06:46 <ehird> Install the OS to a floppy, boot from it, install other programs onto other floppies
17:06:55 <ehird> iBooks can't even run system 6!
17:07:01 <AnMaster> ehird, and it runs OS 9 in fact.
17:07:14 <AnMaster> which, while snappy, isn't very stable
17:07:24 <ehird> OS 9 is not snappy compared to OS 8
17:07:39 <AnMaster> in an emulator I bet it wouldn't be
17:07:42 <ehird> which is not snappy compared to 7, which is REALLY not snappy compared to 6
17:07:49 <ehird> ...but 6 is about the speed of the others.
17:08:06 <ehird> AnMaster: probably they optimised 9 for the iBook.
17:08:22 <AnMaster> ehird, actually, imacs came with it too
17:08:27 <ehird> wrt noise, the original Macintosh was cool; only moving part was the floppy drive
17:08:30 <AnMaster> oh and... running MS DOS 6.2 on a modern computer would be incredibly snappy too
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17:08:48 <ehird> AnMaster: The iBook shipped with 8.5, I belieeive.
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17:09:03 <ehird> And yes, but 8 can do all that 9 can.
17:09:19 <ehird> And 7 can do just about all that 8 can apart from web browsing well (IE 4 / NN 4 max).
17:09:21 <AnMaster> ehird, yes it did, but I got some "you got this so late that we will offer free upgrade to OS 9" kind of thing
17:09:28 <AnMaster> like, a week before OS 9 release or something
17:09:31 <ehird> And 6 can do all the bits of 7 that matter.
17:09:44 <ehird> And -1 can liberate you from the anti-zen of computers!
17:10:35 <ehird> Pre-6 had no multitasking, though/
17:10:43 <ehird> And in 6 you had to change a setting to get multitasking.
17:11:01 <ehird> (Set it to start up with Multifinder instead of Finder.)
17:11:11 <AnMaster> didn't macs support networking booting? Possibly some custom protocol
17:11:21 <AnMaster> but pretty certain I seen an option on the ibook for that somewhere
17:11:32 <AnMaster> to boot from an appleshare server or something
17:11:55 <AnMaster> possibly one could use this to get around the disk noise issue.
17:12:13 <ehird> Why not just plug in a USB stick?
17:12:18 <oerjan> AnMaster: i declare today's mezzacotta comic sufficiently insane
17:12:20 <AnMaster> ehird, it can't boot from that. I tried.
17:12:21 <ehird> Admittedly I'm not sure it could boot from that, but worth a try.
17:12:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes it could, via a system extension.
17:12:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm, don't read that one.
17:13:00 <ehird> Sure. They run within MacOS, so just use the USB routines, set it up, and boot.
17:13:18 <AnMaster> this feels like loadlin somehow
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17:13:39 <oerjan> it's the autogenerated one. mostly crap. today it felt even a bit more surreal than usual.
17:13:45 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
17:13:57 <ais523> I haven't read mezzacotta for ages
17:14:05 <AnMaster> <oerjan> it's the autogenerated one. mostly crap. today it felt even a bit more surreal than usual. <-- the I know about the first two statements...
17:15:31 <ehird> they should do an archive binge of mezzacotta
17:16:26 <oerjan> hasn't generated a hall of fame comic for weeks, but that's mainly because there aren't 50 voting readers any more, i think
17:19:31 <ais523> computer just spun up again
17:21:47 <oerjan> ais523: i think it had the fatal flaw (apart from being 99% crap) that it needed many voters to get anything interesting up, and once it fell below a threshold (happened about new year i think) it was doomed to a slow death
17:22:44 <ehird> they should discontinue the comic and just do the other fun stuff
17:23:10 <ehird> keep the hall of fame ones though
17:23:31 <oerjan> heck DMM essentially keeps complaining he doesn't have time for what they have
17:23:36 <ais523> most of the hall-of-fames were pretty rubbish, too
17:24:11 <ehird> just nuke the whole thing then
17:24:37 <ais523> most of them aren't funny, just metahumorous
17:24:53 <AnMaster> ehird, after you archive the whole current history that is
17:25:11 <ehird> No; over 99% of that is crap, and there are hundreds of trillions of comics.
17:25:20 <ehird> They're not actually, you know, stored on disk, anyway.
17:25:35 <ais523> actually, I was wondering if only comics that had ever been seen stayed the same
17:25:39 <ehird> (I'm absolutely sure about the over 99% thing)
17:25:49 <ais523> so that new comics can be added in the entries that have never been seen
17:25:54 <ais523> as well as in the daily updates
17:26:11 <ehird> I am almost totally sure that they just use the date as a random seed.
17:26:16 <oerjan> ais523: i have had a feeling that new characters appear sometimes...
17:26:36 <ehird> oerjan: Almost certainly conditioned for >day_we_introduced
17:26:36 <oerjan> ehird: yes, but they cache those that have been visited
17:27:04 <ais523> after all, it's not like they're storing images
17:27:08 <ais523> they're just a few lines of SVG
17:27:18 <ais523> and, they might even just store the generation algo + seed
17:28:05 <oerjan> ais523: erm that wouldn't give any speedup, which is why they started caching
17:28:18 <ais523> the caching would be so you could write new comics
17:28:25 <ais523> in the gaps between the ones which people had looked at
17:28:33 <ais523> say if you have a new character, or an improved generation algo
17:28:46 <ehird> I highly doubt that happens
17:29:03 <ehird> I'm fairly sure they'll only ever make future comics change
17:29:23 <ais523> but then the new characters would take months to show up
17:29:26 <ais523> and nobody would be looking
17:29:32 <ais523> besides, people mostly only look at the past ones anyway
17:30:30 <ehird> Yes, but it'd mean that some characters around read areas would be mysteriously rare.
17:30:33 <ehird> And mysteriously common in other places.
17:30:35 <oerjan> you cannot look at future ones
17:34:50 <ais523> computer turned on again
17:35:45 <ais523> 17:34, 17:19, 17:03, 16:49
17:35:50 <ais523> seems to be about once every 15 minutes
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17:45:18 <AnMaster> <ehird> They're not actually, you know, stored on disk, anyway. <-- yeah, I was, you know, joking
17:45:41 <ehird> Right, well, it wasn't funny. At least mönster was a pun
17:47:26 <ais523> the desktop here in my office
17:47:37 <ais523> and I'm writing on my laptop
17:47:39 <AnMaster> ehird, puns are no more inherently funny than other jokes
17:47:51 <ehird> you continue your failure of reading comprehension
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17:48:07 <AnMaster> ehird, no, you were vague then
17:48:20 <ais523> is mezzacotta excluded in robots.txt?
17:48:26 <ais523> or does it stay there as a trap for spiders?
17:48:29 <AnMaster> so vague I have no clue what you think I misread.
17:48:44 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc archive is blocked
17:48:50 <ais523> ugh, http://mezzacotta.net/robots.txt is boring
17:49:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes the raindrops do make a pretty pattern on the window
17:49:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, against the far away street light
17:50:26 <oerjan> a pitter-patter pattern
18:02:00 * AnMaster wonders if ehird ever watches the BBC Proms
18:02:19 * ehird wonders to what that is apropos.
18:02:37 * oerjan used to watch the proms when he watched tv
18:02:44 <ehird> Sentient colour technology!
18:03:36 <AnMaster> oerjan, I wished it wasn't such a short cut version sent on Swedish television... :( It reminds me of "highlights of hamlet" ;P
18:03:48 <ehird> But the answer is no.
18:04:53 <oerjan> well it was just the last night back then, wp tells me it's actually really 8 weeks of concerts
18:04:55 <AnMaster> oh? I thought you would at least like the last night of the proms... Even if not the other proms
18:05:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, wait what, you didn't know?
18:05:40 <AnMaster> After all it is called "last night of the proms" the one commonly broadcast outside UK
18:05:42 <ehird> AnMaster: I've never seen it, so I wouldn't know.
18:05:55 <oerjan> not how much the rest was, though
18:05:57 <ehird> I've never really watched much TV.
18:06:04 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes! I don't even like crumpets.
18:06:41 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc they come in many variations?
18:06:51 <ehird> Crumpet generally refers to one thing.
18:06:58 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's like how people never visit the tourist attractions of their own city
18:07:15 <AnMaster> ehird, well the one I have seen I quite liked. Was years ago though.
18:07:20 <ehird> To be honest Britain doesn't really have any culture these days.
18:07:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm. You are saying that is all it is?
18:07:56 <fizzie> Ho-hum; I wrote (well, wrote a Perl script which wrote) http://zem.fi/rfk86/ with the Unicode line-drawing characters, and it looked just right at work; but on this OS X system, the layout's gone all wonky, since "monospace" doesn't really seem to mean monospace here.
18:08:10 <oerjan> AnMaster: heck if i know
18:08:16 <ehird> fizzie: "monospace" doesn't mean monospaced on Linux, either.
18:08:26 <ehird> Sometimes the most common characters are monospaced.
18:08:33 <ehird> Less ccommon ones rarely are.
18:08:42 <ehird> fizzie: May I suggest using Monaco on OS X?
18:08:49 <ehird> It might have the right characters.
18:09:05 <ehird> For extra points, 10pt Monaco; lovely crisp unantialiased funtime.
18:09:13 <Deewiant> ehird: ccccccccccccccccccccccommon
18:09:25 <ehird> Deewiant: Still using that Zero? :P
18:09:46 <Deewiant> You already asked me about the browns, didn't you :-P
18:09:55 <ehird> http://zem.fi/rfk86/screens.html looks wonky, also.
18:10:00 <ehird> Deewiant: Ha ha joke funny laugh get it?
18:10:23 <ehird> You stuttered keys.
18:10:35 <ehird> fizzie: btw the "a" in that font is supremely uglies!
18:10:38 <AnMaster> <ehird> fizzie: "monospace" doesn't mean monospaced on Linux, either. <-- it looks right to me though
18:10:53 <Deewiant> I thought you were just trying to say that I can't complain because my Zero sucks more :-P
18:11:01 <ais523> argh desktop computer stop that!
18:11:05 * ais523 is tempted to disconnect the power
18:11:07 <AnMaster> but why the pulsing edge (well, static)
18:11:32 <AnMaster> as in, the horizontal lines are brighter at regular intervals
18:11:33 <ehird> Deewiant: Just ask majestouch; the Zeros are flawless!
18:11:33 <AnMaster> ╚═════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════╝
18:11:36 <ehird> Your antialiasing sucks.
18:11:43 <ehird> There is no fail by fizzie.
18:11:45 <oerjan> ais523: maybe it is trying to send some spam ;D
18:11:59 <fizzie> It looks right to me on the Ubuntu at work, and on this Debian at home; but it doesn't seem very robust. I guess I should just do a similar-looking thing with CSS boxery.
18:12:11 <ehird> fizzie: Monaco 10pt! Monaco 10pt!
18:12:14 <ehird> OR I'LL BREAK YOUR JOINT
18:12:24 <ehird> It rhymes, it must be true.
18:12:40 <ehird> Yes, but it looks fine on common X11s.
18:12:45 <ehird> And who cares about Windows?
18:12:52 <ehird> So, ON OS X, MONACO 10pt! Joint! Point! Thing.
18:13:01 <AnMaster> and how can it look good on Linux?
18:13:11 <ehird> Monaco, whateverthereisno
18:13:30 <ehird> Display is fixed on OS X, continues to look fine on Linux unless you have crappy antialiasing in which case meh to you.
18:13:34 <ehird> Use DejaVu of course.
18:13:51 <ehird> 10.6's default monospaced font, Menlo, is a modified DejaVu Sans Mono...
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18:14:50 <AnMaster> Dejavu Sans Mono, fall back on Bitstream Vera Sans Mono, fall back on Monaco?
18:16:06 <ehird> Macs often have DejaVu.
18:16:33 <ehird> You may need some hackery to do 10pt only on Macs, but the whole reason to use Monaco is because 10pt is unantialiased and all retro-like.
18:17:57 <AnMaster> ehird, why would 10 pt be non-antialiased?
18:18:40 <ehird> Because Monaco goes way back to the first version of OS X, so it was a hand-drawn bitmap.
18:18:45 <ehird> First version of MacOS.
18:18:50 <ehird> That is, it was in System Software 1.
18:19:04 <ehird> Of course, larger sizes are vector.
18:19:07 <ehird> Outline. Whatever.
18:20:00 <AnMaster> ehird, why not create bitmap ones for larger ones too?
18:20:29 <ehird> Because OS X's text rendering looks nice.
18:20:33 <ehird> Bitmaps would be uglier.
18:20:45 <ehird> 10pt is a good size for Monaco to be crisp, though.
18:20:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, why not as an application?
18:23:01 <fizzie> AnMaster: It doesn't -- or if it does, it's not officially supported; they might've released some TI-made statistics tools in a special format. You could do a TI-BASIC start-up wrapper, but delivering "raw" assembly programs is the standard way on the 86.
18:23:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, does it have that "apps" button?
18:24:09 <fizzie> No. I'm not sure what it should do, either.
18:24:27 <fizzie> Programs are just program-type variables; there's a "PRGM" button to show a list of them.
18:24:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, TI-83+ specific then I guess
18:24:38 <AnMaster> and/or TI-83 and TI-84 I guess
18:24:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, basically they are stored in flash I think
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18:25:24 <fizzie> Yes, well, the TI-86 doesn't have the Flash memory. (And neither does the TI-83.)
18:25:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, you can't usually access most data directly from the flash on TI-83+
18:26:06 <AnMaster> as in, you have to move it to ram first
18:26:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, so in practise you tend to leave most stuff in the battery backed ram
18:28:29 <ehird> 3x4 "v" is hard to distinguish from "u"...
18:29:14 <ehird> Oh, give the u a tail.
18:31:06 <AnMaster> ehird, how do you make it possible to distinguish U from ∐ and ∪?
18:31:07 <fizzie> I don't suppose they've made a widespread font-embedding standard? I could use that 4x6 font I use in the actual game for the website. (Quick wikipediaing -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Font_embedding_on_the_Web#Web_fonts -- doesn't look very promising.)
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18:31:21 <ehird> fizzie: They're working on it now with @font-face.
18:31:27 <ehird> Just use <img> and alt text
18:31:31 <ehird> Who cares if it's a pain!
18:31:40 <ehird> write some javascript to replace each char with an image
18:31:55 <ehird> That way it will look okay on non-imaging browsers.
18:32:00 <ehird> I think lynx does [alt text] instead of just alt text.
18:32:04 <AnMaster> <ehird> write some javascript to replace each char with an image <-- this sounds strangely familiar
18:32:12 <ehird> impomatic: [18:31] fizzie: I don't suppose they've made a widespread font-embedding standard? I could use that 4x6 font I use in the actual game for the website. (Quick wikipediaing -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Font_embedding_on_the_Web#Web_fonts -- doesn't look very promising.)
18:32:22 <ehird> AnMaster: sIFR does it with a string of text and Flash, but you only use it for titles and stuff.
18:32:35 <impomatic> Hmmm... I'm sure I've seen something in Flash that does that.
18:32:40 <AnMaster> ehird, wasn't it scaled to 80% or some other sort of crap
18:34:23 <impomatic> I need to write a JavaScript for context highlighting code at some point
18:34:27 <ehird> Whee, lowercase letters done.
18:34:33 <ehird> Admittedly they'll be as high as the uppercase ones, but who cares?
18:35:01 <ehird> 3x4 IS SO readable, naysayers!
18:35:19 <fizzie> I'm still not counting that as 3x4 if you use spacing between.
18:35:36 <ehird> fizzie: But that's the standard, dude...
18:35:38 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3x3
18:35:45 <ehird> Each letter is 3x3, and you put a one pixel space after each letter
18:35:54 <ehird> It's 3x3, Wikipedia says so, end of, it's valid.
18:36:13 <AnMaster> ehird, like you can always trust wikipedia :P
18:36:25 <fizzie> It's not the standard I use; from where I come from, a 8x16 font has 8 pixels horizontally, 16 vertically, and you stack them without any silly gaps.
18:36:29 <ehird> fizzie is the only person I've ever see claim otherwise as far as metrics go.
18:36:52 <ehird> fizzie: It's kinda silly to call a column part of the glyph if it always has NO PIXELS SET.
18:36:59 <fizzie> Just consult the file names of your /usr/share/consolefonts/
18:37:24 <ehird> ls: /usr/share/consolefonts/: No such file or directory
18:38:22 <ehird> Hmm, B is quite tricky.
18:40:14 <fizzie> And anyway, it's not like you can do line-drawing characters at all if you always add gaps between the character cells.
18:40:42 <fizzie> But don't worry, I'll just mentally substitute 4x5 whenever you say 3x4.
18:41:06 <ehird> The problem, fizzie, is that your definition is really stupid.
18:41:21 <ehird> I plot 3x4 pixels, and that is a glyph. If you rendered that glyph, that is how many pixels you would use.
18:41:30 <ehird> Yes, you add spacing to use it in text— like *every* font.
18:41:35 <AnMaster> ehird, how will you draw the line drawing chars then?
18:41:50 <AnMaster> I think that question is very valid
18:42:05 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm skeptical that you even know what that means. It sounds like you're specifically parroting fizzie.
18:42:08 <ehird> And the answer is you don't. And?
18:42:26 <AnMaster> ehird, um what? I can see the issue with those, since they have to fit together
18:42:29 <ehird> http://zem.fi/rfk86/screens.html
18:42:33 <ehird> Let's take a look shall we
18:42:40 <ehird> After every character!
18:42:46 <ehird> No line drawing possible!
18:42:59 <AnMaster> ehird, are those part of the char or not?
18:43:04 <fizzie> Huh? That's a 4x6 font. It's perfectly possible to add line-drawing characters there.
18:43:18 <fizzie> The blank pixels are part of the character bitmaps.
18:43:40 <ehird> I think that's a really uber-retarded definition, and I'm not going to entertain it. Feel free to mentally substitute.
18:44:05 <fizzie> In fact, in some cases I've used the blank pixels between lines as non-blanks; that causes the Y and y to blend together a bit, but that's just a minor issue.
18:44:52 <AnMaster> of course that will only line up if mono-spaced
18:44:59 <AnMaster> if it doesn't for you: sucks to be you
18:45:23 <ais523> AnMaster: I didn't expect /you/ to say "sucks to be you"
18:45:26 <ais523> it's more an ehirdy thing to say
18:46:09 <ehird> ais523: AnMaster tends to optimise for the most ehird-hostile, with oft pathetic results.
18:46:20 <ehird> Anyway, this font should be semi-readable WITHOUT the gaps.
18:47:25 <AnMaster> I wonder if I can find a non-last night of the proms recording of Henry Wood's famous Fantasia on British Sea Songs anywhere...
18:47:51 <AnMaster> after all, the last night of the proms one is usually a bit... non-conventional
18:48:10 <ehird> Oh my, v vs V is going to be difficult.
18:49:12 <AnMaster> ais523, you never answered to if you watch the proms or not did you? (did I even ask?)
18:49:25 <fizzie> It is the only definition that makes sense to me; for a NxM font, that's the amount of pixels you have available for a single character; you can do tradeoffs when it comes to spacing between characters if you want. I'm going to have to go and call your definition of "uber-retarded" uber-retarded. (Besides, everywhere where I see pixel sizes for fonts that's the definition they use. The Windows command prompt window font size selector, S60putty font-select-o-t
18:49:25 <fizzie> ron, those "miscellaneous" X11 bitmap font names (5x7 and so on), etc. But I guess it doesn't make sense to continue this thread of discussion.)
18:49:33 <AnMaster> ais523, only thought it then I guess
18:50:00 <ehird> Ooh, my "z" shows a nice imagined curve.
18:50:33 <ehird> fizzie: I think I'm using typography terminology and you're using character-blitting-esque terminology, is the issue.
18:50:52 <fizzie> Yes, that sounds likely; I don't dabble with typography, I just blit pixels.
18:50:52 <ehird> My font certainly has an x-height of 4 (and, um, an everything-height of 4).
18:51:07 <ehird> Anyway, upper and lowercase done; now for numbers.
18:51:12 <ehird> I wonder if I should have uppercase numbers!
18:51:17 <AnMaster> and in bitmap computer fonts fizzie's definition is certainly a lot more common
18:51:43 <fizzie> AnMaster: Maybe you've just been hanging around computer folks and not typography folks too.
18:53:04 <ehird> Heh; designing an 0 distinguishable from both o and O is hard when you can't slash it.
18:53:22 <ehird> Maybe I'll use the trick I used with N to optical-illusionify a slash.
18:53:24 <ais523> because there's no room?
18:53:35 <ehird> (Wow, optical-illusionify is accepted by OS X's spellchecker.)
18:53:54 <fizzie> Aaaanyway; I had the following train of thought: "I could put all the text data into an image to get those pixel fonts; but then it's not copy-pasteable and accessible and all. Hey, I know: I'll use the Unicode block-drawing characters to put 2x2 pixels inside each character cell, those at least are bound to be monospaced enough. Then it's all text, not image, and you can... uh... copy-paste the pixels... and, err... have a screen reader read out the blocks a
18:53:54 <fizzie> nd, uh... maybe this wasn't such a good idea after all?"
18:54:13 <ehird> Hmm, I can't seem to apply the trick.
18:54:28 <ais523> fizzie: we're going to have to make an ASCII art font, now
18:55:12 * ehird stops laughing IRL at fizzie's comment
18:55:18 <ehird> i'm going to sue you for hurting my chest
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18:59:05 <ehird> Drawing lowercase and uppercase numbers is fun.
19:01:02 <ehird> Oh dear; my uppercase 2 = my uppercase Z.
19:02:43 <ehird> Okay, I just have to distinguish my uppercase and lowercase 5s and I've done the numbers.
19:06:03 <ehird> Both of my 8s probably need refining; they're hard to distinguish.
19:06:08 <ehird> But I'll do symbols first.
19:06:24 <ehird> I'm very pleased with how I handled lowercase e.
19:07:16 <ehird> Hey, poll! Should I do bold and italics? Please say no.
19:07:40 <ais523> no, just do them with colours
19:07:44 <ais523> to get yourself subpixel bold
19:07:55 <ehird> Colours aren't allowed :P
19:07:57 <ais523> likewise, subpixel italics (that would probably be easier0
19:08:04 <ais523> you could do it algorithmically
19:08:55 <ehird> Anyway, my lowercase and uppercase bold aren't just descends/letter-height!
19:09:02 <ehird> Numbers, not bold.
19:09:20 <ehird> (As in, "lowercase number" generally means descending, whereas "uppercase number"'s bottom is the same as that of a letter.)
19:09:41 <ehird> Mine're actually numbers tweaked to look like they're extensions of the lowercase, and uppercase, alphabet.
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19:12:30 <ehird> ais523: Should I do lowercase and uppercase punctuation? (NO)
19:15:36 <ehird> ais523: Nor do lowercase and uppercase numerals.
19:15:46 <ehird> The point is "these characters look like they belong to the letters of that case in the same font".
19:15:54 <oerjan> you could use those to separate thousands...
19:16:43 <ehird> Darn, I can't do curly quotes :D
19:17:03 <ehird> Well, single quotes sure
19:17:06 <ehird> Double quotes, nuh uh
19:18:55 <fizzie> No, it's been 3x4 the whole time.
19:19:06 <oerjan> well i assume the vertical is longest, anyway
19:19:09 <fizzie> Right, 4x3, the funky.
19:19:13 <ehird> I started doing 4x3 but gave up because it's impossible, at least roman.
19:19:17 <ehird> Italics may be possible in 4x3.
19:19:28 <ehird> 3x4 is criminally easy compared to 4x3.
19:21:01 <ehird> It works, trust me.
19:21:22 <ehird> It also works, although less so.
19:21:28 <ehird> Deewiant: N is a fun one, though.
19:21:37 <Deewiant> Would making the next-to-last line # # be better?
19:21:47 <ehird> The lack of a pixel in the top-right gives the illusion of a slant.
19:21:51 <ehird> Deewiant: In which?
19:22:27 <ehird> I think it looks too much like a stapler-style N with a too-thick line.
19:22:43 <ehird> Deewiant: Ah, that's probably better.
19:24:40 <ehird> I think I pulled off $ quite well...
19:25:14 <Guest76637> i've not been reading, but - are you working with square pixels?
19:25:15 <ehird> Considering the constraints.
19:25:25 <ehird> In this font, yes.
19:25:35 <ehird> Which makes things harder for such a small size...
19:26:40 <ehird> My s and S-based $ both look equally bad...
19:27:41 <ehird> I think the s-based one gets it better.
19:28:41 <fizzie> My 3x6 $ is a really silly one (mostly the font is 3x5, but $ is so rare I used the normally empty line too), though it doesn't look that bad in context:
19:29:36 <ehird> Oh boy, % is gonna be fun.
19:32:37 <ehird> Ah, this makes quite a passable $:
19:32:50 <ehird> That's 5 lines high.!
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19:33:31 <ehird> fizzie: what's your %?
19:33:45 * Sgeo is addicted to Tremulous
19:34:19 <fizzie> Well, it's the size of an uppercase 3x5 character, so it's the obviousish
19:34:26 <fizzie> Doesn't really work in your case.
19:35:22 <ehird> Derived from yours.
19:35:24 <ehird> Both look stupid :D
19:35:54 <ehird> ...butu zoomed out, the latter seems to be not entirely dissimilar to %.
19:36:40 <ehird> Think I'll go for the former.
19:38:01 <ehird> Maybe I'll try something with "et"
19:38:31 <fizzie> My & isn't very great (and of course too big for you):
19:38:58 <fizzie> It's... uh, stylished.
19:40:17 <ehird> fizzie: Anyway, my final & will be more stylised by far...
19:40:48 <fizzie> With less pixels comes.. great responsibility? I don't think that's quite the quote.
19:40:52 <ehird> Currently have a 5x4 & looking sort-of-okay.
19:40:59 <ehird> Well, more like a hybridised et.
19:42:47 <ehird> Awesome, just need to lob off one more column and it'll fit.
19:43:05 <ehird> ...aaand I end up with "e".
19:43:08 <ehird> Let's... tweak that.
19:43:37 <ehird> fizzie: What character is this?
19:44:00 <fizzie> I'm not very good at these image puzzles. Is it a dog?
19:44:13 <ehird> It's a cat getting mauled by a character that pretends to be an ampersand.
19:44:20 <ehird> (The cat, and the mauling, are off-screen.)
19:44:43 <ehird> Haha oh man I am so adding a Moof character
19:45:21 <ehird> ...yeah, not happening.
19:46:09 <ehird> Okay, decision time:
19:46:26 <ehird> Which should be the ampersand?
19:46:56 <Deewiant> At this zoom level I prefer the former although neither look anything at all like &
19:49:04 <ehird> The first looks more like a smudge at 100%, fwiw
19:49:12 <ehird> Whereas the latter looks... uh, more like the cent sign than anything.
19:49:38 <ehird> Ahahahahaha, asterisk
19:49:49 <ais523> ehird: but you're underage!
19:49:50 <ehird> fizzie: Sorry to ask, but, uhh, what's your asterisk.
19:50:04 <ehird> Not in the Vatican City!
19:51:02 <ehird> That, um, that's an x.
19:51:10 <ehird> That's a multiplication symbol if anything.
19:51:19 <fizzie> Yes, well, the positioning (upper three lines) makes it an asterisk. :p
19:51:34 <Deewiant> And moving it down by one line makes it an x?
19:51:41 <ais523> incidentally, fizzie's drawing's pixel-identical to the asterisk in MS Sans Serif, at some small font size
19:51:46 <ehird> No, his x has a double line at the bottom
19:51:48 <fizzie> Deewiant: Moving it down by one line and adding another # # at the bottom.
19:51:54 <ehird> I am a fontstalker.
19:52:07 <fizzie> And adding a # # at the top of the lowercase x makes an X.
19:53:10 <ehird> I wonder how to indicate lowercase/uppercase numbers in the input stream.
19:54:13 <fizzie> There were no asterisksks in the rfk messages, so it's not in that font file. But http://zem.fi/~fis/font00l.png and http://zem.fi/~fis/font00h.png make up the whole ISO-8859-1 set; those have been scaled by 200%, and there's some extra whitespace, and the "high-ascii" characters are really bad, but...
19:55:08 <fizzie> I have a third plane for the U+2500 .. U+257f line-drawing characters, but it's far less interesting.
19:55:23 <ehird> Ha ha ha, angle brackets.
19:55:51 <ehird> fizzie: I should probably rearrange mine in ascii order sometime.
19:56:07 <ehird> I guess I'll just use the last ascii chars for the uppercase numbers.
19:56:14 <ehird> After all, I have no chance of doing accents.
19:56:24 <ehird> Aww, that ü makes a wonderful :).
19:56:36 <ehird> And that ö makes a wonderful :o.
19:56:53 <Asztal> the ì í makes an angry face :(
19:57:32 <fizzie> The symmetric :) is probably Ü -- the actual ü is a bit lopsided. Unless you prefer that, of course.
19:57:39 <ehird> Asztal: last row, third and forth
19:57:49 <ehird> And then... uh... either male or fefmale, I forget.
19:57:54 <ehird> fizzie: It looks cuter that way.
19:58:20 <fizzie> That's evil-and-female triplet is òóô, I think. Not very like it.
19:58:54 <ehird> fizzie: Drop the middle pixel of the ^ thing in ^o
19:58:55 <fizzie> It was originally "that's ô", then I went and edited it.
19:59:20 <fizzie> I probably should. It just looks so 8-like then.
19:59:40 <fizzie> Oh well, who needs accents anyway.
20:03:04 <ehird> This is impossible.
20:03:22 <ais523> not really, just leave out the a in the middle
20:03:24 <ais523> and draw the outer loop
20:04:08 <ehird> But that results in a character almost identical to my e. :P
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20:07:26 <ais523> I once tried to do a font for the characters in 7-bit ASCII on 7-segment displays
20:13:41 <ehird> Okay, I have no idea how to do either | nor ~.
20:14:05 <ehird> *Maybe* I could do | by omitting the top and bottom pixels, like a reversal of the usual |.
20:14:18 <ehird> Or by omitting just the top one. Hey, that could work.
20:16:42 <ehird> Printable ASCII sans the space plus ten extra digits fits perfectly into a 26x4 block. Who knew?
20:17:17 <ehird> Anyone have an opinion on whether I should keep orditch the lower/uppercase digits?
20:18:53 <ehird> fizzie: FWIW, just tested "And how!" without spacing; looks perfectly fine
20:26:39 <impomatic> A few 8 bit computers didn't support lower case.
20:29:31 <ehird> impomatic: Not just lower/uppercase.
20:29:33 <ehird> Lower/uppercase DIGITS.
20:43:11 <ehird> It's rather hard to distinguish the upper and lower case...
20:43:21 <ehird> fizzie: challenge me to do the lowercases as 3x3.
20:43:53 <ehird> Well, and ascenders/descenders
20:50:36 <ehird> I can't do the fancy e that way.
20:50:53 <ehird> But I don't want to give capitals another row... that'd make it 4x4, which is BOOOOOOORING
21:20:53 <ehird> Deewiant: because my I has no stupid serifs.
21:23:17 <ehird> LACK OF SERIFS: Meh
21:25:18 <oerjan> SERIOUS SERIF SHORTAGE, SHERIFF
21:25:35 <ehird> "I'll serif. Your mom)))))))))))
21:27:43 <ehird> Maybe I'll make the world's smallest italic, serifed pixel font.
21:27:59 <ehird> Can't be too many of 'em that are small, can there?
21:37:46 <ais523> what size are you planning?
21:38:27 * oerjan suggests somewhere around the planck scale
21:39:16 <ehird> Damn, making italic letterforms is hard.
21:40:37 * oerjan suggests putting something under the edge of the monitor
21:42:42 <ehird> You realise that italic letterforms are not just normal letterforms rotated? :P
21:43:24 <oerjan> oh wait it's a _shear_, not a rotation
21:43:36 <ehird> No, they're totally different designs.
21:45:15 <pikhq> Ehird speaks truth.
21:45:40 <ehird> The irony of misspelling my name while defending typography :P
21:46:22 <ehird> Technically, pikhq does it all the time, BUT.
21:46:24 <pikhq> Italic scripts tend to be a bit more... Curvy.
21:46:38 <ehird> Italic: MORBIDLY OBESE
21:46:42 <oerjan> ic. maybe a mobius transform then?
21:47:03 <ehird> ITT: oerjan discovers that you can transform any piece of geometry into another
21:47:20 <pikhq> oerjan: More transforms are involved.
21:47:55 <Ilari> How is B(ullshit)MI of that defined? :-)
21:48:17 <fax> weight / height
21:48:23 <Ilari> Number of pixels per height?
21:48:27 <pikhq> Obviously, there exists a set of transforms that one could apply, but I think it's a bit on the nontrivial side to make Roman scripts into Italic. (Italic scripts, FWIW, are more curved because they more closely resemble handwriting)
21:48:50 <ehird> Windows just renders the font normally and tilts it if it doesn't have any italic script.
21:48:51 <Ilari> Or set area / height?
21:48:54 <ehird> WINDOWS IS EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVIL
21:49:21 <pikhq> Sadly, many just do oblique type calling it italic.
21:49:31 <pikhq> ehird: That's oblique script.
21:49:56 <ehird> It automatically makes oblique script (badly), and uses it when italic isn't present.
21:51:17 <ehird> for the attention of— magic
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22:46:23 <AnMaster> <ehird> WINDOWS IS EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVIL <-- old news.
22:50:31 <ehird> Why am I allowed to connec
22:50:31 <ehird> I overflowed my limit didn't I
22:50:31 <ehird> maybe it's just blocking http
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22:50:33 <ehird> yo, socks proxy anyone?
22:52:44 <coppro> ehird: is the proxy woolen?
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22:53:21 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
22:53:21 <fungot> ehird: david bowie alan ginsberg 2 args, " distance" thing makes any sense
22:53:37 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
23:01:42 <ehird> 15GB. None; pay as you go
23:01:43 <ehird> I doubt I've really used 15 gig...
23:01:45 <ehird> but I can't think why else HTTP requests are being forwarded to Vodafone's "lol hi this is your connection register or login" page.
23:02:51 <ehird> oh jesus, horrible lag
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23:11:13 <ehird> every single thing y'all said in like
23:11:15 <ehird> [23:02] fungot joined the chat room.
23:11:16 <fungot> ehird: night man. don't be afraid so they can't be bothered reading books these days. it seemed to me that the actors have a bunch of developers with stuff that makes me coolest of all.
23:11:17 <ehird> [23:02] AnMaster: hm
23:11:19 <ehird> [23:02] AnMaster: it isn't here?
23:11:21 <ehird> [23:02] fizzie: Hey, where's the bot?
23:19:32 <fungot> FireFly: expected 2 argument(s) to procedure eval, got 1.
23:22:12 <ehird> that line is wonderful, i don't know why, it just sits well with me
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