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09:06:32 <ais523> wow, a Firefox error I've never seen before
09:06:55 <ais523> "Wow, this is embarassing." "Firefox is having trouble recovering your windows and tabs. This is usually caused by a recently opened web page."
09:07:16 <ais523> I just clicked on "restore" a second time and it worked, though
09:07:27 <ais523> I just thought it was an amusing error message to find in production software
09:07:35 <fizzie> That was added in 3.5.
09:08:04 <fizzie> It does that here every time you make it crash and/or kill it without doing the normal "save and quit" thing.
09:08:23 <fizzie> It's a bit misleading message in that it never has any trouble actually restoring the tabs.
09:09:06 <ehird> ais523: what is it with software trying to be all cutesy?
09:09:42 <ehird> I like Chrome's crashed tab, but it's only a Macintosh homage if you notice it, and the only cutesy text is "Aw, Snap!"
09:09:45 <ais523> anyway, what caused that one was attempting to suspend a computer
09:09:55 <fizzie> qmail gives this sort of fatal error message:
09:09:58 <fizzie> "Hi. This is the qmail-send program at something.something.something.net.
09:09:58 <fizzie> I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
09:09:58 <fizzie> This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out."
09:09:59 <ais523> it reacted by apparently shutting down immediately
09:10:04 <ais523> but rebooted to a blank screen
09:10:05 <ehird> fizzie: I get that often
09:10:16 <ais523> I get that occasionally; apparently Yahoo uses qmail
09:10:39 <ehird> It annoys me because it's hard to pattern match the error from the loquacious text
09:10:46 <ehird> ohhhhhhhhhhhh I just said loquacious I am AWESOME
09:11:38 <fizzie> I had a horrible feeling when testing a qmail installation, which involves sending a known-to-bounce message; I would have so much liked to answer "really, it's okay, my fault: that message was supposed to bounce" but, well, you can't.
09:12:22 <fizzie> Sad email server makes me sad.
09:13:23 <ehird> You should have just emailed another address that actually works so it could be happy and gleeful.
09:14:25 <ehird> Eek! Phone line people are here.
09:14:29 <ehird> Correction: Eek! People.
09:15:28 <fizzie> They are going to install a surveillance microphone, so that the government can monitor your subversive activities.
09:15:48 <ehird> Well, actually they're just installing a line or something. Or checking if they can.
09:16:03 <ehird> I don't suppose they'll need to see the scattered phone sockets around the house, so MY FORTRESS IS SAFE.
09:17:07 <ehird> Every time I hear other people anything, I feel a slight twitch for MY HOLY FORTRESS. I think I have issues.
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09:39:32 <ehird_> Urgh, am I really on GPRS? It's like a nightmare...
09:39:33 <ais523_> it's like, an underscore convention
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09:47:05 * ais523 tried to remove the extra underscores with /nick ehird
09:47:10 <ais523> clearly, I need to pay more attention...
09:47:44 <ehird> Eh, back to fingering the circuit board for this key.
09:48:31 <ehird> This is probably slightly dangerous.
09:49:03 <ais523> I don't think there's enough of a voltage in a keyboard to hurt you unless you really try
09:49:11 <ehird> Thus "slightly". :P
09:49:14 <ais523> e.g. by wiring the internals directly up to the surface of your heart
09:49:59 <ehird> Circuit boards aren't very tactile.
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10:27:46 <ehird> "MobileDeveloperTV has itself a Maemo-powered Nokia N900, and sure enough, it runs the full version of Google Wave."
10:27:52 <ehird> Pah, 2 jiggahurts phones.
10:27:55 <ehird> I use Wave with my mind.
10:41:34 <fizzie> N900 dropped the USB host mode support, then.
10:41:49 <ais523> option 2 is looking like a good one, it seems
10:42:00 <ais523> the elisp finally turned up, apparently it needs human interaction as well
10:42:25 <ais523> basically, the plan's to use an evolutionary computing stage, which alternates between the computer evaluating the fitness function, and the human tweaking the input to get better output...
10:48:10 <ehird> Cool, TextEdit supports .odt
10:48:12 <ais523> the code apparently wasn't meant to be used by anyone else
10:48:14 <fizzie> Also, in case ais523 didn't yet notice and still cares about the Sidekick conspiracy: "Microsoft recovers 'most, if not all' Sidekick customer data"
10:48:21 <ais523> ehird: the support was ridiculously partial last I saw it
10:48:30 <ehird> ais523: Possibly. Still.
10:48:36 <ehird> ais523: If you link me to a fancy-shmancy odt I can try it.
10:48:36 <ais523> I still care about the conspiracy theories, because they're fun to read
10:48:37 <fizzie> ais523: http://forums.t-mobile.com/tmbl/?category.id=Sidekick
10:48:46 <ais523> I want to see how the conspiracy theorists deal with this one
10:49:07 <ehird> http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/15/microsoft-recovers-most-if-not-all-sidekick-customer-customer/
10:49:14 <ehird> Less horrific than some random T-Mobile forum.
10:49:28 <ais523> "We have determined that the outage was caused by a system failure that created data loss in the core database and the back-up."
10:49:29 <ehird> Admittedly it's not a very useful article, but still.
10:49:35 <fizzie> Yes, well, that was the "read" link of that engadget article.
10:49:42 * ais523 wonders how that's even possible...
10:49:59 <ehird> Hey, EtherPad can import from txt/html/doc/rtf.
10:50:04 <ehird> Now hwy can't it export as rtf?
10:50:11 <fizzie> Also a strange /.-linked story: http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10374831-2.html
10:50:46 <ais523> actually, this is quite a good result; most customers get their data back, and Microsoft still gets sued into oblivion for massive breach of contract
10:50:48 <ehird> So everyone in Finland can have free one megabit internet?
10:50:56 <fizzie> I don't think "free" is included anywhere.
10:51:02 <ehird> Then how is it a right
10:51:11 <ehird> What about people who are totally broke?
10:51:40 <ehird> "France's Constitutional Council ruled that Internet access is a basic human right." // i didn't realise anyone had gone that progressive yet
10:52:00 <ehird> [[But Finland's definition of "access" to broadband is a little fuzzy. According to the Helsinki Times when it reported the 100Mb target last year, the Finnish government said that no household "would be farther than 2 kilometers from a connection capable of delivering broadband Internet with a capacity of at least 100 megabits of data a second." It did say, though, that "about 2,000 (households) in far-flung corners of the country" wouldn't be included.
10:52:00 <ehird> Ostensibly, Finland plans to keep that same distribution when its 1Mb broadband access is implemented.]]
10:52:25 <ais523> it seems kind-of weird to have Internet access as a human right, when the Internet didn't even exist 100 years ago
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10:52:37 <ehird> What's age got to do with it?
10:52:43 <ehird> It wasn't a right then because nobody used the internet.
10:53:08 <ais523> human rights strike me as the sort of things which always were needed and always will be
10:54:11 <ehird> What a person needs for anything beyond raw survival has changed over the years.
10:54:27 <ehird> ais523: Anyway, that definition falls hopelessly short; for example, nobody needs free speech to survive.
10:54:33 <ehird> But it's still a basic human right.
10:54:41 <ais523> I didn't say "to survive"
10:55:08 <ais523> in fact, it makes sense to say that Internet access is the only practical way to achieve truly free speech nowadays, for instance
10:55:14 <ais523> but that's different from making the Internet itself a right
10:55:16 <ais523> it's a means, not an end
10:55:32 <fizzie> The in-Finnish article has more details; the local regulatory body will designate a couple of tele-operators that are required to provide the service, and those companies need to provide that one megabit at a "reasonable" price to every permanent dwelling or company office.
10:55:39 <ehird> Well, I'm not surprised it doesn't make sense to someone who rapidly avoids the web...
10:55:54 <ehird> Obviously IRC is not much of a necessity.
10:56:32 <fizzie> Also funny way of specifying the speed: you will have to get (on average) at least 75 % of the megabit during any 24-hour period, and at least 50 % during any 4-hour period.
11:02:46 <ehird> I really, really need window GC.
11:04:08 <ais523> apparently Android does something like that
11:04:21 <ais523> it keeps processes running in the background, and signals them to save and exit when they haven't been used for a while
11:08:55 <ehird> Clever for stateless things like iPhone apps; could be a pain for IRC clients and their ilk, but I assume it can be disabled by an app.
11:09:14 <ehird> But I don't want them destroyed permanently, just put in a dated archive in case I really need them.
11:09:23 <ehird> I accumulate windows and tabs like crazy when browsing the web.
11:09:30 <ais523> Android apps are supposed to be able to do that themselves
11:09:35 <ais523> as in, they're supposed to persist to disk then exit
11:10:30 <ehird> What's that got to do with anything I've said?
11:14:24 <ais523> aargh, stupid BlogNomic moving the sidebar to the left
11:14:42 <ais523> http://blognomic.com/archive/queries_and_notices/ needs someone like ehird yelling at them to explain why what they're doing is all a really bad idea
11:15:01 <ehird> It does look significantly more cluttered. Left sidebars can be done but not by wantonly moving things around...
11:15:36 <ehird> e.g. http://daringfireball.net/ pull off a left-aligned sidebar with lots and lots of whitespace... but BlogNomic looks terrible now.
11:15:49 <ais523> incidentally, does Fitts' Law allow for the fact that it's easier to hit small targets near (but not at) the edge of the screen than it is to hit targets near the middle? (Of course, it's easier still to hit targets actually at the edge)
11:15:54 <ehird> It doesn't help that they're still using that overly-minimal theme.
11:16:07 <ehird> ais523: Probably; I'm not sure
11:16:17 <ehird> I'm only familiar with the most basic results of the law
11:16:47 <ehird> "BlogNomic IRC Channel | Alternate Link"
11:16:53 <ehird> why are they linking to two web clients?!
11:16:59 <ais523> the first's Java-based, IIRC
11:17:06 <ehird> without even noting which to use in a situation...
11:17:10 <ais523> so the second one gets around firewalls
11:17:25 <ehird> thus guaranteeing either one of the links to be useless, or to annoy people by making them click both
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11:18:57 <ais523> blognomic admins have too much of a tendency to mess with the software for the sake of messing with it
11:19:07 <ais523> which is strange, considering how rarely they do that with the ruleset
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11:19:56 <ehird> ais523: Probably because Expression Engine has so many buttons.
11:20:12 <ais523> they're editing the HTML directly
11:21:28 <ais523> which is the implication I got from your comment
11:22:26 <ehird> ais523: I just meant that it's such an overly-customisable, overly-generic (Is it a blog engine? A user accounts framework for subapplications? A... thing? It's ExpressionEngine!) piece of software that nanturally all the little preferences just beg to be clicked around.
11:22:39 <ehird> Including the templates.
11:24:54 * ais523 reads a D&D version flamewar
11:26:27 <fizzie> Haha, it's so futuristic: http://vimeo.com/6496886
11:27:12 <fizzie> Yes, I guess siggraph was quite a while ago.
11:27:14 <ehird> Windows only, though, so meh.
11:27:21 <ehird> I saw it a few days ago.
11:27:27 <ehird> The demos are almost certainly tuned to work properly.
11:27:39 <fizzie> Sure, but it makes for a fancy video.
11:27:59 <ehird> ais523: I don't play D&D — do people just fight over 3v4 or are there crazy niche sect arguments about, I don't know, 1.5 revision 2 vs 3.4 draft 5? :D
11:28:21 <ais523> the major fight is 2v3v4
11:28:27 <ais523> fights within a version are very rare
11:28:42 <ais523> e.g. most people prefer 3.5 to 3.0, the only complaint was about having to buy the books twice
11:28:53 <ais523> come to think of it, there are probably still fans of 1 around
11:29:00 <ehird> I was about to ask.
11:29:27 <ais523> less numerous than the others, though
11:29:56 <ehird> I want to write a roguelike.
11:31:12 <ais523> I have insane plans to write a roguelike as an Enigma level, but that'll take months and I don't have the time right now
11:31:13 <ehird> I guess I can write a simple one in a few hundred lines; some crappy floor generation, stupid enemies and a few items, plus portals to other floors.
11:31:39 <ehird> In fact, the hardest bit will probably be the IO.
11:32:18 <ehird> I'd make it graphical, but rendering ASCII graphics in a graphical window would be so silly. Also, probably harder than ncurses, even though it gives better with my personal preferences.
11:33:11 <ais523> you could do curses first and write a tiles version later
11:33:38 <ehird> Yes, I will. But still, curses is a bitch.
11:33:52 <ehird> I do believe I should incorporate http://buttersafe.com/2008/09/25/cat-fight/ into the game mechanics.
11:34:00 <ais523> I don't really mind curses
11:34:09 <ais523> (what a stupid name...)
11:34:24 <ehird> "Curses: fuck that shit."
11:34:58 <ais523> don't make me break out the butterfly net
11:35:16 <ehird> (In case anyone doesn't want to bother loading that whole page: http://buttersafe.com/comics/2008-09-25-CatFight.jpg)
11:37:33 <ais523> heh, someone's busy trying to argue about whether Batman would wear armour or not
11:37:48 <ehird> ais523: Anyway, by "graphical" I still meant the actual tiles would be textual.
11:37:49 <ais523> he's arguing not, on the basis that it wouldn't make any difference
11:37:53 <ehird> (But only because I'm lazy.)
11:38:05 <ais523> ehird: actually, that's how DNA Maze works
11:38:13 <ehird> Yes. I'd use a stock font, though.
11:38:14 <ais523> it writes text by blitting the individual letters to the screen
11:38:17 <ais523> saves messing around with fonts
11:38:49 <ehird> Well, I was mainly meaning for the menus, buttons and easier cursor manipulation sort of thing.
11:39:02 <ehird> Also, the ability to hover an object's identification above it if you're near enough.
11:39:20 <ehird> (Which you can do with text, sure, but it obscures stuff. With a semi-transparent, small font, only doable in a GUI, however...)
11:39:25 <ais523> I want to add hover-farlook to my NetHack interface
11:39:40 <ais523> hover something to see what it is
11:39:46 <ais523> rather than having to use ;
11:39:49 <ais523> ideally, in text mode too
11:39:59 <ehird> In mine it would be automatic; just get within, say, 5x5 of it.
11:40:01 <ais523> although, it might need to click just because of how text-mode mouse detection works
11:40:05 <ehird> Or I could have it appear above everything, since, you know, you could just ;.
11:41:17 <ais523> one thing I'm wondering about is a list of ambiguous monsters
11:41:26 <ais523> e.g. if there are mind flayers and dwarf kings in a room
11:41:30 <ais523> it would underline, say, the mind flayers
11:41:41 <ais523> with a key saying h mind flayer \ h dwarf king
11:41:55 <ehird> Okay, game mechanic: There is a cat, labelled so. You attack it. It turns out to be a brick cat (and thus it hurts you a little) and its label now reflects this. You can pick up the brick cat, and put it on an activator thing that you'd normally put a stone on.
11:42:08 <ehird> (Or, you can keep kicking it until you die.)
11:42:23 <ais523> sort of like a reverse cockatrice
11:42:26 <ais523> you touch it, and it turns to stone
11:42:45 <ehird> Well, it *was* stone all along, you just didn't know that.
11:42:58 <ehird> I suppose picking it up without attacking it first should give you some luck points or something.
11:43:08 <ehird> (Doing that to an actual cat enemy would presumably result in damage.)
11:43:41 <ais523> well, that sort of thing already happens in NetHack
11:43:49 <ais523> you can try to move onto a cat to pick it up, using m and the cat's direction
11:44:00 <ais523> but you'll get "You move right into the cat", or whatever, and lose your turn
11:44:07 <ais523> and so the cat will get a chance to attack you
11:44:30 <ehird> In my case it'd be that you can pick up a brick cat because, well, it's just brick. But trying to pick up an angry cat's just gonna result in scratches.
11:44:45 <ehird> Of course, picking up every cat you see in the hopes that it'll be made out of brick is unlikely to pay off...
11:44:54 <ais523> what sort of hero can't distinguish a brick from a cat?
11:45:06 <ehird> http://buttersafe.com/comics/2008-09-25-CatFight.jpg
11:45:12 <ehird> It could happen to you!
11:46:07 <ais523> it seems that AngBand has a mechanic like this, where , could indicate a door, a mushroom (item), or a mushroom (monster)
11:46:22 <ais523> gah, NetHack has given me an intrinsic urge to CamelCase all roguelike-related proper nouns
11:47:00 <ehird> Clearly my final boss should have the same tile as the floor.
11:47:11 <ehird> (Or, slightly less ridiculously, the weakest, most common enemy in the game.)
11:47:16 <ais523> there's one of those in at least one Angband variant too
11:47:37 <ais523> but IMO, anything that provokes paranoid farlooking is a bad idea
11:47:50 <ais523> so, it would have to also look like the floor if you tried to find out what it was remotely
11:47:53 <ehird> Well, you'd know when you get to the end boss, anyway.
11:47:58 <ehird> But yes, it would.
11:48:05 <ehird> It'd also have no transparent-identification-text.
11:48:16 <ehird> (There'd be no actual look command.)
11:48:22 <ehird> But that's equivalent to an invisible boss, really.
11:48:35 <ais523> one that can't be seen with see invisible
11:50:20 <ehird> This should be fun.
11:50:22 <ehird> (Maybe I can keep the UI code I write for later, more substantial games.)
11:50:41 <ehird> So tempted to go the graphical route right now for those shiny identification labels.
11:51:06 <ais523> and post it as a 7-day roguelike
11:51:13 <ehird> You want me to keep up a whole project for 7 days?!
11:51:31 <ais523> this is annoying: there's a siren in the background, but I don't think it's the fire alarm
11:51:43 <ais523> it seems to have stopped, anyway
11:52:10 <ehird> Anyway, I do wonder if it'd be worth releasing it; I doubt there are many OS X-using roguelike players.
11:52:40 <ehird> And I'm not futzing about with cross-platform GUI libaries... And I can't do ncurses because, shiny labels! :<
11:53:53 <ehird> ais523: Incidentally, is Rogue any good
11:54:03 <ais523> ehird: it's rather primitive, but still a decent game
11:54:27 <ais523> very similar to NetHack, but slightly more annoying
11:54:33 <ais523> and with fewer things in, but you're unlikely to notice
11:54:41 <ais523> unless you know a lot about NetHack
11:54:50 <ais523> or get a long distance into both games
11:55:20 <ais523> anyway, I have a meeting, I'm leaving for a while, probably about 2 hours
11:55:46 <fizzie> I have a soft spot for Rogue, since it was probably among the first computer games I played. For some inexplicable reason, our I-think-it-was-a-286 had a copy installed.
11:56:31 <Deewiant> As far as I remember, my first roguelike was Omega
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12:16:00 * ehird realises, while reading a comment from Jef Raskin on a website circa 2004, that he died a year later
12:16:32 <ehird> My life is filled with realisations! Also, neurons firing.
12:18:53 -!- oerjan has joined.
12:19:16 <ehird> (Ouch— then two comments later, "I wish I had taken the opportunity to apologize to Jef before he passed away. I didn't mean to offend him. It's a shame to see him go.")
12:26:01 <oerjan> <ais523> actually, this is quite a good result; most customers get their data back, and Microsoft still gets sued into oblivion for massive breach of contract
12:26:16 <oerjan> hey, don't make me actually feel sorry for microsoft here!
12:27:09 <ais523> meh, that's impossible
12:27:16 <ais523> I feel sorry for Microsoft's employees (collectively)
12:27:25 <ais523> but not really for the corporate evil intelligence that's controlling them
12:27:28 <ehird> Sometimes I feel sorry for Microsoft! But only sometimes.
12:27:50 <ehird> Time to read some more keyboard forum!
12:29:10 * oerjan wonders how you'd go about creating a corporation type that _wasn't_ intrinsically psychopathic
12:29:30 <ais523> I'm not sure it's possible
12:29:33 <ais523> if it is, it should probably be done
12:29:51 <oerjan> perhaps it requires solving the friendly AI problem first
12:29:54 <ehird> Capitalism is intrinsically psychopathic and sociopathic.
12:30:36 <ais523> hmm... is there an easy way to determine your own screen res?
12:30:37 <oerjan> um is there a difference between psychopathic and sociopathic? i thought the latter was just a bit more politically correct term...
12:30:46 <ehird> oerjan: Pretty sure there is.
12:31:20 <ehird> I was sure there was a minor difference.
12:31:38 <ehird> ais523: In what OS?
12:31:46 <ehird> But yes; JS exposes it.
12:32:13 <ehird> http://www.pageresource.com/jscript/jscreen.htm
12:32:15 <oerjan> it's actually the other way around
12:32:23 <ais523> setings seem locked down
12:32:31 <oerjan> "Sociopathy is no longer a correct term to use, and when it is used it actually refers to what is considered Antisocial Personality Disorder."
12:32:34 <ehird> javascript:alert(screen.width+"x"+screen.height)
12:32:37 <ehird> ais523: javascript:alert(screen.width+"x"+screen.height)
12:32:52 <ais523> seems this is 1024x768
12:32:57 <ais523> but couldn't quite believe it
12:33:18 <ais523> still, I grew up in an environment where 1024x768 was a lot
12:33:42 * ehird receives a spam addressed to penguinmonkey@hotmail.com, penguinmouse@hotmail.com, penguinmuncher@msn.com, penguinn@live.com, penguinocanada@hotmail.com, penguinofdeath@msn.com, penguinofthegods@gmail.com, penguinoh@hotmail.com, and penguinonshromes@hotmail.com
12:34:03 <ehird> Email itself is rather typical: "hey! just browsing people in my area im new here and saw your pic (youre totally cute and my type) add me on windowwslive messengor paris21tina@hotmail.com is my name on it, add me on it because i dont use email much. i have a built in cam on this new laptop i got so i can send you some photos of myself as well. ttys i hope! "
12:34:22 <ehird> Got another one with similarly penguin-related names from another name and a different address.
12:34:24 <ais523> I haven't seen spam like that before
12:34:26 <ehird> Spam-reported-magick!
12:34:41 <Deewiant> ais523: Obviously you're not totally cute and her type!
12:34:43 <ais523> what would happen if you did add them on wlm?
12:34:58 <ehird> Deewiant: I think at least one of them is a he
12:35:02 <ais523> they'd spam you there too?
12:35:05 <ehird> ais523: Link to a password-grabbing site, I imagine
12:35:24 <ehird> Like "Click here to see my photos http://stealpassword.badlyforgedsite.photosmagicomg.com/totallyfrommicrosoft/youcangiveusyourmsndetails"
12:35:34 <ais523> I wonder if half the spammers in the world nowadays are doing it for fun, and don't have any idea how to profit from their spam
12:35:36 <ehird> And then spam other people with it.
12:35:51 <ais523> like the spambots which post random nonsense to wikis, without any URLs or anything like that
12:36:01 <ehird> That's just testing whether they can be spammed easily, I think.
12:36:06 <ehird> Before selling the URLs.
12:36:58 <ais523> ehird: ah, interesting
12:37:11 * AnMaster curses the voice saying "You now have number 78. Estimated waiting time is 50 minutes"
12:37:38 <ehird> "Sorry for the interruption. We have been receiving a large volume of requests from your network. To continue with your YouTube experience, please enter the verification code below."
12:37:42 <ehird> No shit, it's a crazy 3G stick thing
12:37:49 <ehird> ("YouTube experience")
12:37:55 <ehird> WHERE DO YOU WANT TO GO TODAY
12:38:00 <AnMaster> ehird, hm so you are behind NAT?
12:38:25 <oerjan> ehird: i have certainly received spam that looked like the recipients were part of an alphabetic list before...
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12:38:36 <ehird> I can't complain; I'm getting almost a megabit indoors in a village.
12:38:44 <ehird> And only ~300ms latency.
12:38:46 <fizzie> Based on those email addresses, "her type" must equal penguins.
12:39:01 <ais523> ehird: hexham? or somewhere else?
12:39:07 <AnMaster> <oerjan> ehird: i have certainly received spam that looked like the recipients were part of an alphabetic list before... <-- yeah that is quite common
12:39:09 <ehird> ais523: I moved, yeah?
12:39:13 <ehird> Didn't you get the memo? :P
12:39:19 <ais523> I'm vaguely aware that you moved
12:39:22 <ais523> I have no idea how far, though
12:39:33 <ehird> Like, less than five miles, probably?
12:39:34 <oerjan> and if the list is huge enough, it could certainly contain only penguins...
12:40:01 <ehird> It's very close to Prudhoe, anyway.
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12:40:13 <ais523> ok, now you live somewhere I /haven't/ heard of
12:40:22 <ais523> although, I presume you were surprised I'd even heard of Hexham in the first place
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12:40:56 <ehird> ais523: Very easy way to find out: It's a small village near Prudhoe that shares all but the suffix of its name with a village right next to it.
12:41:10 <ehird> (Like "Poopunt", "Pooplee".)
12:41:45 <ehird> AnMaster: But it's almost "prude ho"!
12:42:00 <ehird> Lived in Prudhoe before Hexham, anyawy.
12:42:02 <AnMaster> ehird, to me it looked more like "prod hoe"
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12:42:14 <ehird> AnMaster: It's pronounced "prud oh"
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12:42:26 <ehird> Oh, Google Maps actually classes it as in Prudhoe
12:42:53 <AnMaster> ehird, be happy it was a p and not a c at least
12:43:21 <ehird> Just checked; the village is 10 miles away from Hexham.
12:43:46 <ehird> 2.3 miles away from Prudhoe.
12:44:15 <fizzie> On one zoom level, there's a Ovington/Ovingham pair of labels that fill the criterion maybe.
12:44:27 <AnMaster> ehird, is that mile the one that is roughly 1.6 km?
12:44:36 <ehird> AnMaster: I clearly mean nautical miles.
12:44:48 <AnMaster> ehird, there is a third option.
12:44:51 <ehird> Yes, mile = 1.60 km.
12:44:55 <AnMaster> Swedish miles. Which are 10 km
12:45:30 <oerjan> metric miles in norway too
12:45:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah then it isn't just Sweden that use that
12:45:54 <fizzie> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=prudhoe&sll=52.66972,-1.933594&sspn=25.669598,53.481445&ll=54.968654,-1.89777&spn=0.0059,0.013057&t=h&z=17 -- that's a tiny place.
12:45:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Especially as I estimated it as <5miles.
12:45:58 <AnMaster> yeah metric miles is a good name
12:46:09 <ehird> Rather hard not to notice the difference between <50 miles and 100 miles.
12:46:26 <AnMaster> ehird, nautical miles wasn't completely impossible though.
12:46:32 <ehird> Also, you *were* here when I moved; I wasn't more than an hour or so.
12:46:41 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, I didn't go in a boat.
12:46:50 <AnMaster> ehird, I think the verb had an accident there
12:47:09 <AnMaster> ehird, also nm is used for aviation too
12:47:12 <ehird> fizzie: What, Prudhoe?
12:47:17 <AnMaster> "<ehird> Also, you *were* here when I moved; I wasn't [away] more than an hour or so."
12:47:21 <ehird> Prudhoe isn't tiny.
12:47:34 <ehird> *Ovington* is tiny.
12:47:46 <ehird> AnMaster: No, what I said was valid.
12:47:50 <fizzie> That link points to Ovington; at least it tries to point what google labels as that.
12:47:50 <ehird> away is an adjective.
12:47:58 <ehird> I don't actually know.
12:48:02 <ehird> fizzie: You linked to Prudhoe.
12:48:13 <ehird> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Ovington,+Prudhoe,+Northumberland,+UK&sll=54.968654,-1.89777&sspn=0.003597,0.007961&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Ovington,+Prudhoe,+Northumberland,+United+Kingdom&t=h&z=13
12:48:35 <ehird> AnMaster: No, not an adverb.
12:48:38 <AnMaster> <fizzie> That link points to Ovington; at least it tries to point what google labels as that. <-- no it pointed to prudho... for me
12:48:40 <fizzie> That's what I get (though zoomed in a lot) when I open my link.
12:48:51 <oerjan> AnMaster: actually wikipedia calls somethign else metric mile, ours is the scandinavian mile
12:48:53 <ehird> fizzie: Well, you're on crack.
12:48:55 <Deewiant> The page says prudhoe but the location on the map is ovington.
12:48:59 <fizzie> I mean, the q= string says Prudhoe, but that's just because it's what I used to find it.
12:49:34 <oerjan> apparently the old norwegian and swedish mile, while different, were both 10-12 km
12:49:36 <ehird> fizzie: I clicked it; I know what it comes up with. :P
12:49:41 <ais523> wow: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovington,_Northumberland
12:49:53 <ehird> We have a WP article?!
12:49:54 <ais523> I wasn't certain there'd be a Wikipedia article on it
12:50:00 <ehird> I couldn't even find any relevant results on Google
12:50:04 <ais523> but they have been trying to add articles on everything larger than a hamlet in the entire world
12:50:05 <ehird> Argh, my mouse lags so
12:50:13 <ais523> so I'm not surprised that someone went through it
12:50:19 <ais523> I /am/ surprised that it's more than a stat dump, though
12:50:31 <ehird> No population stats.
12:50:51 <oerjan> AnMaster: also the metric system was introduced during the swedish-norwegian union, so not strange that we share it
12:50:53 <ais523> heh, it spends an entire paragraph on how they hardly have a clue about its history
12:51:03 <fizzie> My father's birthplace is probably equally tiny, and it has a wp article too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mätäsvaara
12:51:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, true. We did some good over there in Norway after all ;P
12:51:36 <ehird> fizzie: Tempted to replace it with "Mätäsvaara is a village."
12:52:20 <ehird> Ovington House bed and breakfast accommodation in Ovington ...
12:52:20 <ehird> Ovington House bed and breakfast accommodation, Ovington, Northumberland situated close to Newcastle upon Tyne and the Roman Wall offers a warm welcome to ...
12:52:27 <ehird> Adding "Northumberland" to my query seems to haev helped.
12:52:42 <fizzie> fi.wikipedia has some details too; there's a mine, there, that's about it.
12:56:12 <ehird> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3511/4012519527_dd1a95b262_b.jpg
12:58:13 <Deewiant> Hooray for PHP: 1 == TRUE == "x" == 0 == "" == NULL == FALSE
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13:11:11 <ehird> Deewiant: You ought to reply to the elitekeyboards owner on geekhack.org; he's claiming that the zeros have zero problems whatsoever at speeds well above 115WPM and it's all the typist's fault
13:11:11 <fizzie> "liitumassan kiskojakit" would be something like "rail-yaks of the chalk mass".
13:11:12 <ehird> I like how concisely you can express that
13:12:02 <fizzie> So: Isaiah is a powerful draw, and the rail-yaks of the chalk mass. (Reference transcript through google-translate: "big and powerful locomotive was coming along rails".)
13:12:30 <fizzie> Hey, there's two correct words an all.
13:13:00 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
13:14:15 <ehird> http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2009/10/3/151357/469
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13:18:37 <Deewiant> fizzie: "Iso ja voimakas veturi oli tulossa kiskoja pitkin"?
13:19:17 <fizzie> Deewiant: You have solved the riddle! You get 15 points. Points can be exchanged for other, identical points.
13:19:29 <Deewiant> Not /too/ far off the mark, then. If it hadn't lost the "ri" and the "kin" at the end it might've been a lot better.
13:19:35 <oerjan> what about differently colored points?
13:20:04 <Deewiant> fizzie: Cool! I'll exchange ten of my points for ten points and then combine it with the remaining five to get 15 points
13:20:16 <fizzie> Done! You now have 15 points.
13:20:31 <ehird> fizzie: I exchange my 0 points with MISSINGNO points.
13:20:47 <oerjan> i stealthily paint one of Deewiant's points yellow
13:20:49 <ehird> (It's a wildcard that equals how many points you exchange it for)
13:21:02 <fizzie> ehird: Done! You now have Äñ0ê:ìgLARø9hZDݟÔùyu=IwåEæwV^ûW³iùø¢... NO CARRIER
13:21:57 <ehird> fizzie: I purchase a CARRIER.
13:22:21 <fizzie> You have an AIRCRAFT CARRIER. This means war!
13:23:00 * oerjan lends ehird the swatter to swat incoming aircraft -----###
13:23:14 <ehird> I fly my AIRCRAFT CARRIER over to Deewiant's head and drop my Äñ0ê:ìgLARø9hZDݟÔùyu=IwåEæwV^ûW³iùø¢ on him.
13:23:40 <Deewiant> I throw my yellow point at the Äñ0ê:ìgLARø9hZDݟÔùyu=IwåEæwV^ûW³iùø¢
13:23:57 <ehird> I swat the yellow point before it hits me.
13:24:03 <ehird> You are bad at aiming.
13:24:27 <Deewiant> There goes my only yellow point.
13:24:47 <ehird> I sneakily steal 7 of your 14 points.
13:24:57 <ehird> With my AIRCRAFT CARRIER's point-steal-o-motron.
13:25:19 <ehird> I fly off into the distance, inexplicably slow-mo as my AIRCRAFT CARRIER just barely outruns an explosion.
13:25:21 <Deewiant> I use my remaining 7 points to buy 7 AIRCRAFT CARRIERs.
13:26:15 <ehird> I use my 7 points to buy three and a half BETTER AIRCRAFT CARRIERs.
13:26:51 <Deewiant> I grab the yellow point you swatted away and use it to buy an ULTIMATE AIRCRAFT CARRIER.
13:27:34 <ehird> I sell my AIRCRAFT CARRIER for a point, buy jet black paint for a point, and hastily paint my BETTER AIRCRAFT CARRIERs, thus making them ULTIMATE AIRCRAFT CARRIERs.
13:27:49 <ehird> Oh, and also the half BETTER AIRCRAFT CARRIER.
13:27:54 <ehird> It becomes an ULTIMATE HALF OF AN AIRCRAFT CARRIER.
13:28:05 <oerjan> you fail. there was only enough black paint for a point, not a whole carrier.
13:28:14 <ehird> oerjan: THAT IS NOT HOW THE ECONOMY WORKS
13:28:31 <ehird> But fine, I paint a point black and use my black point to buy a shit ton of jet black paint right before I started painting them
13:29:12 <Deewiant> This economy is kinda broken what with just painting a point making it a shit ton more valuable while the paint itself is cheap
13:30:06 <oerjan> at least this economy has a point.
13:30:12 <ehird> I fly my ULTIMATE HALF OF AN AIRCRAFT over to Deewiant and steal his complete lack of an anvil a few meters above his head.
13:30:42 <ehird> I fly my ULTIMATE HALF OF AN AIRCRAFT CARRIER over to Deewiant and steal his complete lack of an anvil a few meters above his head.
13:30:50 <Deewiant> In response I steal the complete lack of the absence of an ULTIMATE HALF OF AN AIRCRAFT CARRIER near you
13:31:08 <ehird> But I don't have that; after all, around me is near me.
13:31:17 <ehird> And there is an ULTIMATE HALF OF AN AIRCRAFT CARRIER around me.
13:31:28 <ehird> Before you can reword, I fly off into the distance.
13:31:42 <ehird> Inexplicably fast-mo as I get chased by a bird with the Benny Hill music playing.
13:32:17 <Deewiant> Around you is X, so you lack the absence of X around you.
13:32:52 <ehird> A time paradox occurs and it turns out that that bird was just chasing me hovering in the air somehow.
13:32:52 * oerjan declares use of double negation a war crime
13:33:19 <AnMaster> "<ehird> I fly my AIRCRAFT CARRIER" <-- wait... what?
13:33:50 <ehird> I swat my lack of 2 points to death. I purchase some jet black paint with one point, paint the other point and buy a bomb with the painted point.
13:33:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_aircraft_carrier
13:34:05 <ehird> Now I have: 3 ULTIMATE AIRCRAFT CARRIERS; a bomb
13:34:19 <ehird> Deewiant: Hey, I didn't even notice, heh
13:34:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh. right. They aren't usually what the term "aircraft carrier" refers to though.
13:34:41 <Deewiant> I exchange your continuous linguistic failure for 10 points
13:35:36 <ehird> I ... whatever the verb is for water, like "fly" for air ... an ULTIMATE AIRCRAFT CARRIER, and switch it into flight mode. It takes off into the air, and I exchange my badassery for 10 points.
13:36:02 <Deewiant> I do the whole buy-paint-and-repaint-ad-infinitum thing and end up with a rainbow-colored point which I exchange for an INTERGALACTIC STARFIGHTER CARRIER. I head into orbit.
13:36:35 * oerjan flees this universe before the escalating war destroys it
13:36:40 <ehird> I purchase the All-Encompassing Space Empire with charm; good looks.
13:37:22 <ehird> I swat someone until they give me a point, which I use to buy some rope.
13:37:48 <ehird> I tie my three ULTIMATE AIRCRAFT CARRIERS together, thus making them into an INEXPLICABLY SPACE-FARING ULTIMATE THREE AIRCRAFT CARRIERS TIED TOGETHER.
13:38:08 <ehird> I head into orbit around Deewiant's INTERGALACTIC STARFIGHTER CARRIER.
13:38:14 <Deewiant> I rush into the asteroid belt and mine the rocks for 100 points, which I swiftly furbish into 10 rainbow-coloured points.
13:38:29 <ehird> I throw a Furby at Deewiant.
13:38:48 <Deewiant> I rent a DIMENSIONAL PORTAL and, leaving my INTERGALACTIC STARFIGHTER CARRIER behind as a decoy, flee to wherever oerjan went.
13:39:33 <Deewiant> Your Furby impacts with the CARRIER and bounces off harmlessly.
13:39:42 <ehird> I said at you, not at the CARRIER.
13:39:48 <ehird> I grab a point from some random peon in the Empire and ascend to a higher plane of existence by jumping into space and suffocating; at the very moment I die, I eat the point.
13:39:55 <Deewiant> You suck at throwing as much as I do.
13:40:14 <ehird> I navigate to Deewiant's trans-dimensional plane axis.
13:40:22 <ehird> I exhume myself right next to Deewiant, and punch him.
13:41:05 * oerjan sneaks back to the old universe and closes the portal behind him
13:41:27 <ehird> I climb into Deewiant's space-suit and smash the window.
13:41:49 <fizzie> "I climb into Deewiant's space-suit" sounds like the start of some sort of indecent slashfic.
13:41:52 <ehird> As Deewiant floats out, grasping for air, I steal: 2 points; lint.
13:42:02 <ehird> I dispel any notions of slashficcery.
13:42:16 <ehird> Deewiant: Is that your "oh god I need oxygen" face?
13:42:33 <ehird> (Or are you just happy to *swatted*
13:43:12 <Deewiant> I mutter "it's full of stars" and whatnot as a result of oxygen deprivation and being in outer space.
13:43:18 * oerjan retrieves the swatter from the CARRIER
13:43:30 <AnMaster> oerjan, what? ehird stole your swatter too?
13:43:32 <ehird> Hey, I still have my own swatter you know.
13:43:44 <ehird> AnMaster: No, oerjan lent me his.
13:43:51 <ehird> I gather he has an infinite amount of them.
13:44:02 <oerjan> that is classified information
13:44:21 * AnMaster suspects uncountably infinite at least.
13:44:32 <ehird> I swat Deewiant a few times, decide that this is getting boring, do the whole suffocation-absorbtion-into-hyperdimensional-plane spiel, except this time with Deewiant, not the point.
13:44:57 <oerjan> there is only one true swatter. the number of decoys is, however, classified.
13:44:58 <ehird> I promptly separate from Deewiant and jump back into the hyperspatial axis of the universe we were in, this time in the CARRIER, next to oerjan.
13:45:17 <fizzie> I regret starting the whole point thing.
13:45:21 * oerjan points out that ehird is dead in this universe
13:45:37 <ehird> oerjan: I have a license to be a non-brain-desiring zombie.
13:45:41 <fizzie> Oh, you POINT out. I see what you did there!
13:46:09 <Deewiant> ehird: This is why "pun not intended" is useful.
13:46:13 <ehird> Is Deewiant still in the hyperdimensional plane? That would explain his INEXPLICABLE SILENCE.
13:46:43 <ehird> Anyway, I exhume myself since I forgot to. Hi oerjan!
13:46:52 <oerjan> if i left it in after adding "pun not intended", it would be a lie
13:47:50 <ehird> I tap my fingers waiting for Deewiant.
13:47:58 <ehird> Got any points, oerjan? I need to do something.
13:48:12 <oerjan> i am completely pointless
13:48:24 * oerjan ducks out of the CARRIER
13:48:26 <ehird> Good! Then you won't mind... I sell oerjan as a slave, gaining 2 points.
13:48:40 <ehird> Curses! Foiled again!
13:48:46 * oerjan runs away, bumping into a car, which explodes
13:49:10 <ehird> I fly my CARRIER over to oerjan, pick him up, sell him as a slave for 1 and a half points.
13:49:15 <ehird> (He's known to be volatile now.)
13:49:39 <ehird> I do the whole paint spiel to get myself a rainbow point, and buy a mountain made out of LSD.
13:49:48 <oerjan> someone once claimed to me that oerjan means "slave" in finnish
13:50:18 <Deewiant> You'll need to remove the e and the n to get there
13:50:22 <ehird> I give away LSD liberally, and become president of the universe.
13:50:33 <Deewiant> Removing just the e will get you "slave's"
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13:51:17 <ehird> I jump into the hyperdimensional planevortexthing with a sample of the mountain, force-feed it to Deewiant's astral plane existence, and drop back into whence I came, where we use less bullshit-filled terms.
13:51:22 <Deewiant> ehird: I thought you already had an All-Encompassing Space Empire?
13:51:25 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's also the correct accusative case; "I buy a slave" -- "ostan orjan".
13:51:32 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, turns out that means "some kid's lawn".
13:52:05 <ehird> [Deewiant runs into an elephant which is planet earth. It flips his 4th-dimensional superspace and he turns into a mushroom.]
13:52:21 <ehird> [The walls, of which there aren't any, melt.]
13:53:09 <ehird> [White noise fills existence. A bellowing vortex shouts: "''hhhow many things are' things? ! i would like to KNOw!". Your fffffffffffffffffffaaaaaaaaaaaaaaccccccceeeeeeee is murdered all pinky-shaded.]
13:53:25 <ehird> I take it you have no intention of moving. :P
13:54:29 <ehird> [The carcass of Jesus' face talks about Proust.]
13:56:04 <ehird> [Existence quietly takes itself out the back and shoots itself in the head. All things are over. Everyone loses.]
13:56:41 <oerjan> All points are lost. Fortunately.
13:56:46 <ehird> [The sublime superliminal energy of the points absorbs itself and tries an odd contortionist position that's all the rage known as the Big Bang. Some rag-tag hooligan universe gets all started and excited and only lasts some billions of years.]
13:56:59 <ehird> [oerjan's statement notwithstands, due to being said not in brackets by a man who does not exist.]
13:57:26 <oerjan> It was true. From a point of view.
13:57:38 <ehird> ...and that, kids, is the worst creation myth ever dreamt of.
13:58:56 <ehird> Pretty fun though.
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15:32:19 <ehird> Distributed hashtable + ants = ants?
15:32:49 <oerjan> well i suppose if the ants ate the hashtable...
15:33:02 <ehird> No. NO EATING ALLOWED
15:34:34 <ehird> Distributed hashtable + HYPOTHETICALLY NON-EATING ants = ants?
15:34:41 <oerjan> they're very good at distributing
15:34:55 <oerjan> or perhaps rather UN-distributing
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15:42:09 <ehird> HO)W DEAD ARE yo§±
15:45:47 <ehird> oerjan: why does anyone wants to distribute united nations?
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15:46:17 <oerjan> well they are still missing a few parts
15:46:57 <ehird> THE VATICAN CITY AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
15:47:01 <ehird> where the trees are birdses.
15:47:30 <ehird> fascistinating, more like. like.
15:49:33 <ehird> SO MUCH FUNU TO BE HAD WHEN YOU'RE IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIN THE VATICAN CIIIIIIIIIIIIITYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
15:49:43 <ehird> *FUN *FUN *FUN *FUN *FUN *FUN *FUN my v key is broken?
15:49:50 <ehird> so THAT'S why I keep getting stuck at v in finger frenzy!
15:50:19 <ehird> fg ggfgggggggggggggggggggggggggg9gggggge bbcccb
15:50:42 <oerjan> ehird, sometimes a bit heavy on the fun
15:50:56 <ehird> totally heavy fun extreme sports 2
15:51:15 <ehird> "HARDCORING UP YOUR STREET, MEET "
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15:54:27 <ehird> i maxed out a poodle and then it exploded
15:55:06 <ais523> wow, you lot invented an entire economy while I was afk?
15:55:43 <ehird> And made it responsible for the creation of our universe
15:55:45 <ehird> You know... the usual
15:55:56 * ais523 exchanges one of ehird's points for 5 mackerel
15:56:06 <ehird> Sorry, no can do; the points are all gone.
15:56:23 <ais523> I don't see why we can't have negative points
15:56:49 <ehird> ais523: "[The sublime superliminal energy of the points absorbs itself and tries an odd contortionist position that's all the rage known as the Big Bang. Some rag-tag hooligan universe gets all started and excited and only lasts some billions of years.]"
15:57:13 <ehird> Technically you COULD exchange them, but only if you had a way of ripping apart the 1-dimensional fabric of the universe.
15:57:41 <ehird> Also, a point is worth something like a billion trajillion mackerel.
15:57:52 <ehird> Except when considering paint; it's worth 0.5 mackerel or so then.
15:58:15 <oerjan> yeah that would take a large collider or something, to crack hadrons into points
15:58:27 <ais523> 5 points to a mackerel, it's a fundamental rule of at least two universes, one of which no longer exists and the other of which has not yet come into being
15:58:31 <oerjan> would completely unravel the universe, of course
15:58:44 <ehird> Erm, the reverse, ais523
15:58:48 <ehird> 1 point to 5 mackerel, no?
15:59:03 <ehird> oerjan: You can convert sexlua energy into points?
15:59:29 <ehird> Yes, well, our points are super points.
15:59:29 <ehird> And we can paint them!
16:00:43 <ehird> No! YOU ARE ALL UNCANONICAL, DAMMIT!
16:01:46 <ehird> UNCANONICAL RABBITS
16:01:52 <oerjan> loose canons, everyone
16:02:33 <ehird> Loose rabikts kdsf
16:02:40 <ehird> I am not sleep-deprived, incidentally.
16:04:47 <ehird> I AM ALWAYS DEPRIVED OF SCENT
16:04:58 <ehird> i burst my keyboard typing that last sentence. who knew it was full of water.
16:05:14 <ais523> ehird: your keyboard was full of water?
16:05:25 <ais523> also, really what is up with you and keyboards?
16:05:25 <ehird> Toooooooooootally. And a thousand pins.
16:05:29 <oerjan> it's one of those fancy inflatable ones, clearly
16:05:36 <ehird> I am bleeding! I am made of gel, or so I hear.
16:06:00 <ais523> actually, a water-filled keyboard isn't utterly implausible
16:06:03 <ehird> I jumped out the window about a millisecond ago; any tips for preparation in my new, post-self-defenestration life?
16:06:15 <ehird> Ooh, I feel a lot of that "pain" thing. This is fun!
16:06:51 <ais523> one of my colleagues was rubber-ducking at me and came over to look at the channel just then
16:06:58 <oerjan> ehird: i suggest getting one of those self-preservation instincts
16:07:00 <ais523> I said we were discussing keyboards
16:07:19 <ehird> oerjan: are they expensive?
16:07:31 <ehird> ais523: I don't assume they bought it...
16:07:45 <ehird> I RUIN EVERYTHING :D
16:08:00 <ais523> meh, he's embarassed anyway because I laugh at him when he sings
16:08:01 <ehird> Oh god, there's a finger frenzy 2.
16:08:09 <oerjan> ehird: only if you get it from experience
16:08:12 <ehird> Normally I laugh at unfunny things
16:08:55 <ehird> ais523: I was just commenting on "because it's funny"
16:09:09 <oerjan> `define rubber-ducking
16:09:22 <ais523> oerjan: describing a problem to someone who doesn't understand it
16:09:33 <ais523> in the hope that you'll realise what the solution is as a result
16:09:47 <ais523> after a while, it was realised that the second person isn't actually necessary
16:09:50 <ehird> It's called rubber-ducking because you can do it without annoying other people.
16:09:52 <ais523> so they replaced it with a rubbr duck
16:09:58 <ehird> Has your colleague realised this? :P
16:10:23 * ais523 wonders when it'll be generally realised that the rubber duck isn't necessary either
16:10:47 <ehird> the mental hospital will fill up with programmers
16:10:50 <oerjan> ais523: not true, it is important to have focus points :D
16:12:23 <ehird> ~ the science of goats !
16:12:27 <ehird> ~ the science of goats ~
16:12:30 <ehird> the science of getting your headings wrong
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17:37:12 <ehird> http://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/apple-lisa2xl/apple_lisa_screenshot.gif ;; what was up with the Lisa's funny "w"?
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17:45:27 <ehird> a lot of patience you have there groonrix
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17:46:55 <ehird> well someone needs ADHD meds...
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17:47:36 <groonrix> I've heard that it is possible to use EgoBot in order to translate text into Brainfuck printing sequence
17:47:41 <groonrix> Any idea how should I do that?
17:47:48 <EgoBot> 20 ++[>+++++>>><<<<-]>. [17]
17:47:52 <ehird> !bf_txtgen holy butt festival; festival of butts
17:47:54 <EgoBot> 397 +++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++>++++++++>++<<<<-]>>-.+++++++.---.>+.>++.<<<-------.>>----.<++++++++.>-.>.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.-.<-.+.-----------.<++.<-.>----------.-------------------------------------------------.---------------------------.>>+.-.++++++++++++++.+.<.>++.<<<.>>+++.<.>+++.<<+++++.>.<----.>>>-.<+++++.>-.-.<<----------------------. [894]
17:48:02 <ehird> [17:47] ehird: !bf_txtgen
17:48:02 <ehird> [17:47] EgoBot: 20 ++[>+++++>>><<<<-]>. [17]
17:48:05 <ehird> that's some efficient printing
17:48:12 <ehird> well technically it's printing a newline
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17:57:29 <AnMaster> <ehird> i burst my keyboard typing that last sentence. who knew it was full of water. <-- wth
17:57:47 <ehird> jelly! whole piles of jelly! stuck to my ceiling!
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18:48:20 <ehird> making a 4x3 font sure is hard
18:50:08 <ehird> especially lowercase i
18:50:13 <ehird> i think doing italics first would be easier...
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20:19:08 <AnMaster> FireFly, possibly, but that seems odd
20:19:30 <FireFly> Indeed, but I'm used to seeing dimensions as width times height..
20:20:13 <FireFly> I once made a quite neat 3x5 font
20:20:28 * AnMaster wonders how many possible 4x3 patterns there are
20:20:59 <AnMaster> well, easy enough to calculate it. First reduce it to a single line, then caclulate possible permutations. I think.
20:21:21 <AnMaster> (reduce to single line would mean "caclulate 4*3")
20:21:31 <Asztal> it depends if it's black and white or not
20:21:43 <Asztal> I've seen a nice anti-aliased font of around that size
20:21:44 <AnMaster> Asztal, I assumed 2 colours only
20:22:13 <AnMaster> Asztal, I can't imagine how you can represent something like ä in it
20:22:35 <FireFly> Who needs internationalization?
20:22:59 <AnMaster> FireFly, I guess you never write in Swedish. Ever. ;P
20:23:51 <FireFly> But, I think it depends on what you want to use the font for
20:24:03 <AnMaster> FireFly, well I can't think of any use for such a small font
20:24:14 <FireFly> I mean, if you just need a small font for diplaying highscore in a game, you only need 0-9
20:24:17 <AnMaster> mainly because even on ~90 dpi it is not readable
20:24:27 <Asztal> Imagine Chinese in a 4x3 font...
20:24:47 <fizzie> 3x5 is pretty nice if you allow one-pixel empty spaces between letters.
20:24:56 <FireFly> Black box followed by black box followed by black box, followed by black box...
20:24:59 <Guest76637> 4*3 = 4095 different 'characters', minus the fact that a bunch are just translations
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20:25:26 <fizzie> Nice arithmetics, "4*3 = 4095".
20:26:05 <fizzie> Why -1, though? It's not like the empty character couldn't well denote a Chinese character.
20:26:11 <fizzie> Well, as well as any of the single-pixel ones.
20:26:30 <iamcal> a single pixel is a period or aposthrophe, depending on position
20:26:35 <Asztal> with 8 shades for each pixel, you could represent enough, though it might be _slightly_ hard to tell them apart...
20:26:40 <AnMaster> iamcal, what if it is in the middle?
20:26:52 <AnMaster> multiplication dot I would say.
20:27:09 <iamcal> http://www.iamcal.com/misc/fonts/
20:27:39 <AnMaster> iamcal, at native size for my screen I would be utterly unable to read those
20:28:16 <iamcal> then i have reached my goal!
20:28:19 <fizzie> If you're making a special-purpose 4x3 font, you don't have to make do with "empty is empty"; it's not like Chinese-the-language uses spaces between words.
20:28:57 <iamcal> pixel fonts are mostly a waste these days, with bigger screens
20:28:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, isn't this basically a 2D barcode by now?
20:29:20 <fizzie> That rfk86 port I wrote uses a 4x6 font, with the rightmost column and bottom row empty for most glyphs; that's very readable as long as you can distinguish unique pixels.
20:29:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, TI-82 is extremely low DPI though
20:29:47 <AnMaster> if my TI-83+ is anything like it
20:30:08 <fizzie> I'm not sure how -82 is related, since I'm talking about the TI-86.
20:30:28 <fizzie> It's got a bit more pixels (128x64, vs. 96x64 in the 83+) but I guess pretty much the same DPI.
20:31:00 <fizzie> On the N900 3.5" 800x480 screen (266 DPI), you'd get a very unreadable 200x80-sized text mode with that 4x6 font; a single character would be a bit less than 0.4 mm times 0.6 mm.
20:32:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, also odd it has a larger screen
20:32:50 <AnMaster> it is supposed to be more primitive iirc?
20:33:31 <fizzie> That Debian-phone by Nokia.
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20:34:18 <fizzie> And I'm guessing 83+ inherited the 96x64 screen from the non-plus model, which was less capable than the 86.
20:35:47 <fizzie> (In fact primitiveness is still debatable; the 83+ has just 32K of RAM, while the 86 has 128K; it's just that on the 86 all programs have to be stored in the RAM, while the 83+ has that half-a-megabyte Flash for data storage.
20:38:56 <fizzie> s/$/)/, my punctuation stack is leaky.
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21:22:29 <ehird> 12:07:57 <FireFly> 4px wide?
21:22:33 <ehird> 12:19:33 <AnMaster> anyway 4x3 isn't readable
21:25:07 <ehird> 12:27:09 <iamcal> http://www.iamcal.com/misc/fonts/
21:25:27 <ehird> hmm, and now I must break my three-long chain of one-word responses
21:25:51 <AnMaster> ehird, what do you need a 4x3 font for?
21:26:01 <ehird> What do you need Befunge for?
21:26:15 <ehird> Deewiant: Blown up sufficiently and aspect-ratio-corrected, yes.
21:26:25 <ehird> (Designed for a non-square-pixel display.)
21:26:28 <ehird> (Imaginary, that is.)
21:26:30 <Deewiant> Bah, it's cheating if you blow it up.
21:26:39 <AnMaster> ehird, rephrasing... what made you make a 4x3 font?
21:26:46 <ehird> So what? It was readable at the original resolution of the... um... comput-o-tron!
21:26:53 <ehird> AnMaster: Why not?
21:26:59 <ehird> I like very small fonts.
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21:32:50 <fizzie> An actually readable 4x3 font (I mean, assuming no extra space between rows or anything) sounds like quite a thing indeed, but I guess I shouldn't go calling it impossible without seeing it.
21:33:04 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/font.png has the rfk86 font.
21:33:32 <fizzie> That's double the amount of pixels, though.
21:35:25 <ehird> I mean, it's readable on a low-PPI screen with non-square pixels.
21:35:33 <ehird> (So that 4x3 is square.)
21:35:33 <ehird> I mean, it will be.
21:35:37 <ehird> Once I've crafted the perfect letter forms.
21:35:50 <ehird> I think I'll make it italic; seems to be the best way to get the most readable shapes out of it.
21:37:28 <fizzie> Yes, well, do provide some block-of-text examples when it's done; I would think that with only three pixel rows, you'd have a problem with staying legible when the bottom pixels of row 1 are directly adjacent to the top pixels of row 2.
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21:37:48 <ehird> Well, obviously I'll have spacing.
21:37:59 <ehird> I'm idiotic, but I'm not stupid.
21:38:35 <ehird> I wonder if there's a way to render a more italics-like.
21:38:46 <ehird> is what I have now
21:40:27 <ehird> Bah, I'm downloading an imagery-software designed for pixel-poushing.
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21:47:31 <ehird> fizzie: Admittedly it's not easy.
21:52:34 <ehird> 3x4, on the other hand, is almost criminally easy...
21:54:58 <fizzie> Not counting the spacing in the character cell dimensions is also cheating, you know. (Or alternatively a matter of definition. But no, cheating!)
21:55:31 <ehird> Ooh, making the j be friends with the i is hard.
21:55:45 <ehird> (Well, not really.)
21:56:21 <ehird> fizzie: What if some of my letterforms are smaller than others?
21:56:21 <ehird> Is that acceptable? :P
21:58:08 <ehird> Oh geez, "m" is gonna be hard for 3x4.
21:58:55 <pikhq> Make sure to do it like this: http://typophile.com/node/61920 ;)
22:00:18 <ehird> Old; I linked it in here days ago.
22:00:34 <ehird> But it's not really 3 x-pixels, since the colour is vital.
22:00:43 <pikhq> Yeah, that's where I first saw it.
22:00:47 <pikhq> Still rather awesome.
22:00:56 <ehird> More fun than the actual font, incidentally, is StoneCypher's posts. He needs to be put in a nice, fluffy building with people in white coats.
22:01:34 <ehird> Especially the part where he claims that one of the people who REALLY pioneered this stuff broke his hand by punching a brick wall because of miha's evil thread title. (I'm not joking)
22:02:18 <ehird> Gah, all my attempts at 3x4 "m"s look like small-caps Ts.
22:03:22 <Deewiant> I can only imagine things that look like Hs
22:04:02 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Make sure to do it like this: http://typophile.com/node/61920 ;) <-- that hurts to read. Really
22:04:13 <ehird> AnMaster: No, it doesn't.
22:04:30 <ehird> Yes, but your eyes are broken.
22:04:35 <ehird> Deewiant: Remember that lowercase letters should generally forego the top letter :-P
22:04:53 <ehird> AnMaster: Your screen sucks; yes there is colour bleed, no it does not hurt the eye
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22:05:01 <ehird> (What's that? Exaggeration? Gasp)
22:05:03 <ehird> Deewiant: Erm, yes
22:05:15 <ehird> Deewiant: (Lowercase lines should generally forego the top letter?)
22:05:25 <AnMaster> ehird, all colour bleed hurts badly IMO. Guess why even on my laptop I hate subpixel stuff
22:05:35 <Deewiant> ehird: No. /etter /, not /etter/.
22:06:04 <Deewiant> I don't know why I even bother doing these things correctly since everybody reads it wrong anyways :-P
22:06:28 <pikhq> AnMaster, I suspect you've just not seen any even vaguely decent subpixel rendering. Believe me, text without antialiasing really, really, *really* hurts to read.
22:06:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Either you have the non-existent condition colourbleedipainfultis, your screens are jaw-droppingly terrible, or you're exaggerating
22:06:45 <ehird> pikhq: Oh, he barfs even at OS X's.
22:06:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes indeed. Which is why I use non-subpixel antialias
22:07:02 <pikhq> ehird: Wow. OS X does font rendering very, very well.
22:07:03 <ehird> pikhq: He uses full-hinted greyscale antialiasing, which is basically like gently hovering pencil above a paper.
22:07:12 <ehird> And then erasing it a few times.
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22:07:21 <ehird> Gives you a result about half as wispy as the text rendering.
22:07:28 <AnMaster> ehird, turned off for small sizes
22:07:48 <ehird> What? Antialiasing makes vector fonts READABLE at small sizes.
22:08:05 <AnMaster> ehird, at small sizes I tend to use bitmap fonts anyway
22:08:19 <ehird> And never consume others' content, right.
22:08:36 <ehird> pikhq: Hey now, bitmap Helvetica at 12px is a damn fine sharp font.
22:08:44 <ehird> But properly subpixelled text is better, of course.
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22:09:04 <AnMaster> ehird, yes bitmap Helvetica is awesome indeed.
22:09:35 <pikhq> ehird: Well, yeah. It's kinda hard to screw up Helvetica.
22:10:00 <AnMaster> oh actually it was 6 and below AA was turned off for.
22:10:25 <ehird> Why are you even using such small font sizes?
22:10:50 <AnMaster> ehird, then it is completely irrelevant yes
22:12:16 <ehird> SUDDENLY, HYPER-ADVANCED DIMENSIONAL VORTEX BEING
22:13:50 <AnMaster> fully hinted greyscale AA is 1) readable 2) doesn't hurt my eyes due to colour bleed
22:15:37 <fizzie> Well, for the record (and I've said it before too) I do greyscale-only antialiased fonts too, because one of my screens has that 90 degree rotation, and I haven't managed to get Xinerama to provide different subpixel orders (rgb and vertical-rgb) for different screens, and anyway it's pretty ugly for the vertical-rgb screen.
22:16:43 <ehird> I'd say that THE MAGICAL OS X could do that, but it probably can't. I'm not even sure how I'd go about setting up a rotated display.
22:17:15 <fizzie> It probably applies some sort of patch to physically rotate the subpixels back; it's that clever.
22:17:37 <ehird> Just plug it in, RRRRRRRRRRRRRIP, your display is all rotated.
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22:54:23 <ehird> I don't suppose anyone has a Mac Classic ROM just, you know, lying around?
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23:09:09 <ehird> Because that would be sweet.
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