00:00:08 <Oranjer> I usually got three hours of sleep a night during my school days
00:00:14 <FireFly[DS]> Something like that... prolly not enough :P
00:01:09 <FireFly[DS]> Writing with a stylus actually works quite well...
00:01:24 <Oranjer> oh? writing what? these words?
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00:06:07 <fizzie> AnMaster: The input trains might go over bridges if you let them, but you're not supposed to let them go very deep. And yes, apparently the gate trains do go over those two bridges in the "return" track, so there the bridge type does matter.
00:06:35 <fizzie> AnMaster: The gate trains shouldn't go over any other bridges, though (except maybe in the nor gate); if they do, they're a bit lost.
00:07:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, it would be better to avoid those being bridges in the ret track.
00:07:23 <AnMaster> does the trains ever go over those things *below* those return bridges?
00:08:28 <fizzie> No, but the branches from the things below return bridges are so closely spaced (well, for the "right-most" track, anyway) that I don't think you can completely trivially swap the ground/bridge state.
00:08:45 <fizzie> Admittedly I wasn't really speed-optimizing when I made the design.
00:11:00 <fizzie> The routing is probably optimizable. Maybe you should get ais523 or someone to apply some circuit layout algorithms hacked to lay down OpenTTD tracks?
00:11:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, circuit layout algorithms?
00:11:27 <ais523> circuit layout's mostly evolution + brute-force
00:11:36 <ais523> there don't seem to be any common "clever" algorithms
00:12:23 * AnMaster just made a 4 GB machine swap trash
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00:22:12 <ais523> AnMaster: swapping actual data would probably work better
00:22:39 <fizzie> That was pretty groanific.
00:24:28 <ais523> well, reverse-pun, really
00:25:07 <fizzie> Just read "trash" as a noun.
00:25:11 <ais523> because it wasn't a pun in itself, but rather retroactively forced an unintended pun onto someone else's statement
00:25:48 <fizzie> Non-consensual punning, how impolite.
00:26:39 <ais523> #esoteric: where it can take people over 3 minutes to get a joke
00:26:46 <ais523> (possibly over 4, I don't have seconds timestamps)
00:26:49 <fax> actually I'm still looking for the joke
00:26:54 <fax> I just like the concept of it
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00:27:16 <AnMaster> anyway I did it by opening fizzie's screenshot twice in gimp by mistake
00:29:26 <fax> "just made a 4 GB machine swap trash"??
00:29:39 <fax> swap trash with itself?
00:30:26 <ais523> fax: swapping trash rather than swapping useful data
00:30:31 <ais523> if it's trash anyway, no reason to swap
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00:30:59 <AnMaster> ais523, "swap trash" is however an accepted term
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01:43:16 <cers> Hello there, I am having some problems with the whitespace programming language that I figured you guys might be able to help me out with
01:44:43 <cers> the "Hello World!" example available through wikipedia (and a couple of other places, as far as I can tell) does not seem to work for me
01:44:46 <cers> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace_%28programming_language%29
01:44:55 <cers> does it work for anyone else here?
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01:47:39 <Ilari> cers: Are you sure it got copypasted properly? Some editors might mangle tabs or so?
01:48:36 <cers> Ilari: fairly sure - that was my first thought too, but I've tried in several editors, and as far as I can tell I have them configured properly
01:48:48 <cers> Ilari: would you mind terribly giving it a go? :-)
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02:40:32 <cers> why hello there :-)
03:05:37 <cers> Oranjer: you don't happen to be a whitespace shart, ehh? :-)
03:05:57 <Oranjer> I...am not a whitespace shart, no
03:06:06 <Oranjer> you mean, the esoteric language whitespace?
03:06:51 <cers> and yes - the language :-)
03:26:49 <cers> wuhu.. I've written my first Hello World! (in whitespace) - couldn't find a working example anywhere - not one with that exact output at least
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03:29:23 <cers> indeed - the one listed on their homepage outputs "Hello, world of spaces!"
03:29:52 <cers> and the ones I've found elsewhere that claim to output "Hello World!" (like wikipedia), I can't make work
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04:11:04 <coppro> Warrigal: you should help our plans to tear Agora's ruleset down
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04:15:02 <Warrigal> But that would require participating in Agora. :-P
04:15:22 <coppro> and the problem with that would be?
04:16:03 <Warrigal> Good question! What shall I do?
04:16:50 <coppro> just join and then when the appeal proposals start going through, help us vote them through
04:17:02 <coppro> or wait, you're registered but inactive right now, right?
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05:35:42 <cers> heh, I've made a Hello World!\n that runs in whitespace, bf, c++ and python... in 417 chars :-)
05:35:50 <cers> good thing my night wasn't wasted :-S
05:37:27 <coppro> does it use conditional compilation?
05:38:18 <coppro> polyglots are more awesome when they don't read if(C) DO THIS elif(C++) DO THIS elif(Java) DO THAT
05:39:14 <cers> well I wouldn't even know how to do that - but it's more or less based on the correct things being either not used by some languages, or commented out for them
05:39:33 <cers> or in case of bf and ws, they just plain ignore most chars
05:40:50 <cers> http://users.skumleren.net/cers/helloworld.ws.bf.py.cpp
05:41:46 <cers> I didn't even know there was a word for this sort of thing :-S
05:42:55 <cers> I started out trying to weave in the bf into a giant obfuscated c++ hello world, but figured it would be more fun to do it in as few hars as possible, and more languages
05:43:08 <cers> I know I can save some on the whitespace actually
05:47:43 <immibis> you could put spaces around the x in print(x)
05:48:02 <immibis> although i suppose that doesn't actually make it smaller
05:48:53 <immibis> there is a seemingly useless */
05:50:09 <coppro> immibis: the print() is a C++ macro, it needs parens
05:50:42 <immibis> then i realised it's the same filesize either way
05:51:20 <cers> ahh - remnant from older version I think
05:51:55 <cers> down to 407 bytes now
05:52:10 <cers> did some cleaning up in the ws too
05:52:24 <cers> url is updated
05:52:29 <immibis> also try including stdio.h and calling printf(x); instead of cout<<x<<endl;
05:53:18 <cers> immibis: "." is one of the few letters bf uses, so I try to avoid it
05:54:13 <cers> hmm - ahh! now I remember my original reason for not using that - but that has gone away since
05:56:04 <cers> although... there is one drawback..
05:56:33 <cers> I need a linebreak - but python already adds it
05:57:43 <cers> after "Hello World!"
05:57:49 <cers> I need it to print a linebreak
05:58:00 <cers> and I cannot use the char ","
05:59:48 <immibis> make it "Hello World!\n" and put a ; after the print?
06:00:01 <immibis> no, wait, that's a syntax error in c++
06:00:11 <cers> and I cannot use the char ,
06:00:23 <cers> but I got it down to 401
06:00:40 <cers> url updated again
06:01:00 <Sgeo> That's Python 3.x
06:01:05 <Sgeo> What about Python 2.x?
06:01:25 <cers> Sgeo: this works fine in Python 2.6.2
06:01:33 <cers> that's what I'm using
06:02:28 <cers> Sgeo: but only because I'm not printing several values - otherwise 2.x would think it was a tuple and print it as such
06:02:43 <Sgeo> cers, oh, didn't think of that
06:02:46 <cers> like if I did print("foo","bar")
06:02:53 <Sgeo> (I mean, as the parens not meaning function)
06:03:46 <cers> I hadn't exactly thought it that much through to begin with myself :-)
06:05:11 <immibis> surely #define x (1>1) is redundant, so is //< because it doesn't matter what brainfuck cell you start at?
06:05:15 <immibis> unless the spaces mean something
06:06:36 <cers> immibis: depending on the interpreter, you cannot go back from the first cell, and the include would attempt that with the <
06:07:11 <immibis> so nothing would happen...
06:07:24 <cers> though I could do without the back move I guess
06:07:37 <cers> my interpreter throws an error if you try
06:08:25 <cers> but good catch on the back move after include - that shaved another 3 bytes off
06:09:31 * Sgeo must be looking at an old version
06:10:25 <cers> newest version is up now
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06:12:43 <immibis> lets you delete the entire first line
06:13:17 <cers> immibis: and then tell the compiler where to find it manually?
06:13:38 <cers> otherwise "" would mean cwd
06:13:50 <immibis> yes, then the directories normally searched by <>
06:14:47 <cers> indeed it would seem so
06:41:55 <pikhq> immibis: Not to mention that that's not the type signature. ;)
06:42:06 <pikhq> int printf(char *,...);
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06:46:33 <cers> holy christ google is fast.. I wrote a small blog entry on the tihng, and like 5 mins after I publish I thought I'd see if there were others like it out there - and bam, there's my blog on the first result page
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06:48:18 <immibis> int printf(...) is shorter, and will work on some platforms, but not all
06:49:02 <cers> yeah - I'd rather have the include then
06:49:21 <bsmntbombdood> va_start takes the name of the last named argument
06:49:58 <cers> if I could only find my own hello world in brainfuck (my 3rd ever attempt came in at only 2 chars less than the guy who invented the language - 3 chars less than the standing record)
06:51:44 <cers> err "chars more"*
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06:55:33 <immibis> bsmntbombdood: it's a prototype for printf, not a definition
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07:02:09 <zzo38> Yesterday I have a dream
07:02:36 <zzo38> There was various clubs for the different elements types of pokemons: Water Club, Fire Club, Poison Club, etc.
07:02:43 <zzo38> And there was also Miscellaneous Club.
07:03:02 <zzo38> Miscellaneous Club had a rule that it was not allowed to have any members, so it didn't have any members.
07:04:08 <zzo38> Other than Miscellaneous Club, each one had two possible membership requirements, if you met at least one, you were allowed to join.
07:05:09 <madbrain> zzo: want to help me design an esoteric game system
07:05:22 <zzo38> The first was the common one: If you had a pokemon of that element type by just agreement those pokemons decided to go with you anyways, with not the normal way, that was OK. After that you can use a pokeball if you wish to, but it is not required. Masterballs are not allowed.
07:05:47 <zzo38> However, your other pokemons (if any) can be caught the normal way or anything else, even Masterballs are allowed here if you want to.
07:06:34 <zzo38> The other alternate requirement was different for each club and had nothing to do with pokemon at all (so if you have no pokemon, know nothing about it, whatever, that's also OK). The alt. requirement has something to do with that element type however, outside of pokemon.
07:11:01 <zzo38> madbrain: Do you know MegaZeux? I have built-in Forth interpreter into MegaZeux, so you can possibly use that to implement esoteric programming, too. And possibly even more confusing things, too, if you want to...
07:11:44 <madbrain> a forth retro system might be an idea
07:12:11 <zzo38> Do you mean Retro Forth, or do you mean something else?
07:18:19 <zzo38> I have written Forth systems, I can probably do it with assembly language or machine-codes, too. Which is, I do plan to do so one day, to build a simple computer with Z80 and Forth, and a OSD chip.
07:18:28 <zzo38> And that's just about all.
07:18:39 <zzo38> (Other than external connectors)
07:21:03 <zzo38> OSD for On-Screen-Display. It can be used to write text to the screen.
07:22:03 <zzo38> Later on, after I build that, I also plan to build a more complex computer with a ARM11 (possibly another processor?), some DSPs, a hard drive, DVD drive, front panel, USB, RAM, ROM, and some other things.
07:22:12 <madbrain> I want to design some hardware that could be realized in a FPGA
07:22:18 <zzo38> ARM11 is just what I decided at first, if there is a better choice I can do that too
07:22:32 <madbrain> you should talk to mukunda perhaps
07:22:54 <zzo38> I have also want to design some hardware in other ways, I have made part of a computer in Circuit Maker (digital simulation mode).
07:23:11 <zzo38> So, I have to put all the components for the CPU by myself, but I have some ideas already and already did some.
07:26:24 <zzo38> A simple RISC CPU.
07:26:50 <zzo38> It had a GOTO with each instruction sort of like the computer Mel programmed.
07:27:01 <zzo38> And various other things that are a bit strange.
07:27:12 <zzo38> Because it is very low-level
07:27:56 <madbrain> reminds me of the first esoteric system i came up with
07:28:25 <madbrain> basically an esoteric 16bit VM based on self modifying code
07:29:25 <madbrain> each op was, like, [ALU instruction][operand 1 address][operand 2 address][goto address]
07:29:47 <zzo38> I put in some registers that can only be increment or reset and cannot be written to in any other way. Some others are a bit different
07:30:22 <zzo38> The different registers acted differently, so you had to copy values from register into other registers a lot because each register worked in a different way.
07:31:24 <zzo38> Who is mukunda, anyways?
07:34:04 <zzo38> I have espernet on another window right now. Which channel?
07:34:22 <zzo38> (I just so happened to already have the espernet open)
07:35:16 <madbrain> well, he's probably sleeping right now, but he's in #mod_shrine
07:36:12 <madbrain> but he was talking about making some arm based system
07:36:18 <zzo38> :mukunda!mukunda@117.201.99.76 NOTICE zzo38 :TIME Fri Oct 23 12:05:59 2009
07:36:57 <zzo38> Does he sleep at that time? Or just not using IRC at that time? Is that the correct time anyways?
07:39:25 <madbrain> I'm mostly interested in sound chip and video hardware design :D
07:40:10 <zzo38> And I plan to do so.
07:40:45 <zzo38> Some ideas are, use a DSP for video, another DSP for audio, and for video also use a video encoder chip and a LPGA (I have heard that a LPGA is also required).
07:41:36 <zzo38> What would be optimal in my opinion, is to get a DSP that can be clocked up to make it do exactly two instructions per pixel at least. (Possibly more, but still an exact integer number of instructions per pixel would be good)
07:42:01 <madbrain> hmm but what would you do in those two instructions?
07:42:04 <zzo38> They told me that a LPGA is a small FPGA, and it is used to transfer the memory to the video output while the DSP is doing other computations.
07:42:33 <zzo38> Nothing specifically, if the LPGA transfers it, you can do anything you like there, it is used mostly for special effects and stuff like that.
07:42:50 <zzo38> I plan, also to do, the main CPU can send programs to the video and audio DSPs
07:43:15 <zzo38> What I have been told, is that normally a DSP does less than 1 instruction per pixel, because it isn't fast enough.
07:43:25 <madbrain> that's like, copy pixel, copy pixel... barely enough power for anything else
07:43:47 <zzo38> So it has to be clocked to *at least* 2 per pixel. The same person, what they say, is the LPGA is used to copy the pixels.
07:43:50 <madbrain> zzo: well, what are they, RAM timed?
07:43:59 <zzo38> You can do calculation during HBLANK and VBLANK too, of course.
07:44:17 <zzo38> I don't know if they are RAM timed or anything. I was told this, but I need more information, of course.
07:44:39 <madbrain> it has to do with timing for DRAM
07:44:57 <zzo38> Also it needs double bus RAM, with two address bus and two data bus for the video memory. That way the main CPU and the DSP can both access it simultaneously
07:45:06 <madbrain> if you do one full access each time you read/write something, you can go up to max 6mhz
07:45:51 <madbrain> and a low resolution mode like 320x240 @ 60fps outputs..... 6 million pixels per second
07:46:35 <madbrain> to do 3d rendering (with no z buffering) you need to have like 3 times the screen's area in fillrate
07:46:55 <madbrain> which means that you need cache (that's how the psx does it)
07:47:31 <zzo38> O, so that's why you do slightly less than 1 instruction per pixel. Well, I will figure it out, I guess.
07:47:41 <zzo38> Who is immibis? They just sent me a CTRL+A TIME
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07:47:57 <zzo38> O, they are on this channel
07:48:07 <zzo38> But why do such things?
07:48:24 <zzo38> Also the word "time" in lowercase this time (my client still accepts it in lowercase)
07:49:01 <immibis> some random guy who now knows that you're up at
07:49:02 <zzo38> So, how do I speed up the RAM? I don't know a lot about DSPs.
07:49:52 <madbrain> like, that's why 286s/386s/68000s can't go faster than a certain speed and aren't pipelined
07:49:53 <zzo38> O, you sent it a second time and this time in uppercase. Why do you do like that? My program accepts VERSION and FINGER and USERINFO too.
07:50:07 <madbrain> if you don't have cache you litterally can't go faster
07:50:26 <zzo38> Does DSP have cache?
07:50:49 <madbrain> but the side effect of cache is that you lose execution time guarantees
07:51:15 <zzo38> Is putting a space before the command work supposed to be work for CTRL+A command?
07:52:08 <zzo38> If the timing is a bit off I guess that's OK if it is fast enough and the LPGA is fast enough and the HBLANK and VBLANK clocks are usable
07:53:06 <madbrain> I'm not sure DSPs are appropriate for video
07:53:13 <madbrain> they do work for sound afaik tho
07:53:39 <zzo38> Ah. So, mIRC and LimeChat supports spaces between CTRL+A and the command word, I guess.
07:53:58 <zzo38> In this client, /ctcp results in "UNKNOWN SLASH COMMAND"
07:54:09 <zzo38> But this is a different client that I wrote myself.
07:54:14 <zzo38> That's why it is different
07:54:42 * Sgeo wonders if he should try making a browser that supports pages in some sort of database format
07:55:00 <zzo38> If DSP is not appropriate for video, how can I then build my own video devices then, instead?
07:55:17 <zzo38> I don't want to use the existing video card, I want to learn how to build my own
07:55:32 <madbrain> 1) simple frame buffer based hardware + fast cpu
07:56:55 <madbrain> "fast cpu" is something pentium-fast
07:57:02 <madbrain> with cache and stuff like that
07:58:59 <madbrain> also depends on what sort of gfx you want
07:59:56 <zzo38> I would still like to have a separate processor for the video, however. The FPGA or LPGA could be used as frame buffer is what I have been told about it. The sort of graphics is, just good 2D graphics on a TV screen is good enough, 3D is not needed.
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08:01:09 <madbrain> for 2d depends on stuff like what color depth you want, if you want lots of mobile sprites or you're ok with a boring game where nothing moves, how fast your cpu is
08:01:48 <madbrain> I'm pretty sure you could do a SNES style graphics processor in a fpga
08:02:10 <zzo38> If the video has its own processor that can be reprogrammed by the individual programs that you are running, then it can have a lot of effects. But there will be a default video program in there too, probably just to do tile mode and possibly sprites.
08:02:42 <zzo38> I can try to see how to do a SNES style with FPGA or whatever it is
08:02:50 <madbrain> the problem with something programmable is that you'd need a very very high clock rate
08:03:33 <zzo38> Well, I mean there can be a few extra components for support hardware too, such as a small FPGA to transfer data and possibly a few other functions
08:03:41 <madbrain> because at 320x240 at 60fps with 1 clock per pixel you're at 6mhz already
08:03:58 <zzo38> Sort of like a frame buffer function with a little bit of extra functions
08:04:05 <madbrain> also there are 2 fairly different paradigms for 2d
08:04:19 <madbrain> the other one is no frame buffer
08:05:24 <madbrain> ie to plot a sprite to the screen you (1) read the pixels (2) write the pixels (3) later on the video card reads the pixels again to show a picture
08:05:50 <madbrain> SNES is typically no frame buffer
08:06:26 <madbrain> basically on SNES you put all the sprites in VRAM on loading
08:06:57 <madbrain> then it renders the screen line while the previous line is being shown on TV
08:07:17 <madbrain> So it has (1) read pixels from vram
08:07:29 <madbrain> IE it uses 3 times less memory bandwidth
08:08:08 <madbrain> And there's not much cost for 60fps so all the games run smooth
08:09:17 <zzo38> OK, yes I do understand this OK
08:09:52 <madbrain> which is why you can do slow 10fps 3d on a 386 but you can't on a SNES :D
08:11:41 <zzo38> Other ideas I have for this computer, is, have NMI that is hooked to the main CPU and all other processors and components, and also to a flip-flop which sets privilege. Writing to a certain memory location will clear the flip-flop.
08:11:48 <madbrain> but a 386 basically can't run a 2d game at 60fps unless it "cheats"
08:12:08 <zzo38> Pushing all four buttons on the front panel at once is one thing that can make a NMI signal, but there will be others too
08:12:27 <madbrain> what are you going to use an NMI for
08:12:40 <zzo38> Because, I would need something to prevent programs from accessing partitions of the hard drive that it doesn't have permission for.
08:12:52 <zzo38> The other things for NMI, is for debug and terminating a program
08:13:03 <zzo38> In case the program won't respond, the NMI will force it to do so.
08:13:09 <zzo38> There can be many other purposes too
08:13:31 <madbrain> an HBLANK interrupt would be cool
08:13:39 <zzo38> For example, there might be some memory location to cause a NMI when written to
08:13:55 <madbrain> like, 99% of the SNES effects are HBLANK modification of video registers
08:14:09 <madbrain> and doing that is pretty much impossible on PC
08:14:34 <zzo38> Yes, for the video processor, if it does, it would have HBLANK and VBLANK interrupt (which aren't NMI). The main CPU might have a VBLANK interrupt if I decide to put one in.
08:15:41 <zzo38> However, HBLANK and VBLANK aren't NMI. (NMI is used for other uses instead)
08:16:04 <madbrain> for the video I think you should skip having a processor and come up with some flexible hardware in the FPGA
08:16:33 <madbrain> but then other stuff can steal your hblank interrupt :O
08:18:09 <madbrain> like, you could unify sound with video into a sort of fancy pants DMA controller
08:18:51 <madbrain> that basically does a data copying loop
08:19:37 <madbrain> you could easily add video modifying steps as stages in the pipeline
08:20:50 <madbrain> and make some DMA accesses able to trigger interrups
08:22:27 <zzo38> These are good ideas which I will consider
08:24:13 <Sgeo> A spammer sent me several lines... all of which contradict eachother
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08:26:24 <Sgeo> Um, I don't know if I want to post it here, since there's nsfw language
08:27:02 <madbrain> I don't think anyone here's going to be under 18
08:27:45 <madbrain> plus other irc channels routinely link to stuff like porn anyways
08:27:54 <Sgeo> ehird's under 18
08:28:18 <Sgeo> "me and my boyfriend just broke up so now im going to get even with him watch me and his brothr and if you know himn make SURE YOU TELL HIM http://tinyurl.com/------ my boyfriend is such a cheating asshole... Help me get back at him! Watch me fuck his best friend! http://tinyurl.com/------ me and my boyfriend just love getting naughty in front of strangers!!im blonde - 18! watch me get fucked hard http://tinyurl.com/-------"
08:29:44 <Gregor> Just a nymphomaniac with mood swings.
08:29:48 <Sgeo> It's just amusing that contradicting statements like that were in the same PM
08:30:07 <Sgeo> It would make sense with the latter one, then a few minutes later one of the first two
08:30:26 <Sgeo> That would seriously amuse me
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15:29:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, there? I solved the "don't change level" thing. Still have a bridge (seems you can't build signals in tunnels. Very odd
15:30:04 * AnMaster is used to simutrans that allows you to build complex underground networks if you want
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15:47:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, here is the improved gate: http://omploader.org/vMmxwbA
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16:18:44 <fizzie> Do you have any numbers, does the maglevity have any sort of measurable effect there?
16:20:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, hard to measure since the trains seems to start computing even before all of the input trains moved into place
16:20:17 <AnMaster> so no, but it seems less at least.
16:20:22 <fizzie> Sure, it's quite fuzzy.
16:20:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and I only converted one of the gates fully (the lower ground bit I mean)
16:20:50 -!- cers has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
16:21:11 <AnMaster> the other ones I only converted the bridge closest to the depot for
16:21:28 <AnMaster> due to it being so fiddly for the lower ground stuff
16:22:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, also it annoys me no end that you can't build proper under ground networks in openttd
16:23:43 <AnMaster> huge stations under ground, possibly multilayer. However, there is one much worse issue with all games I have come across in this genre... That is that the scale of stuff is way way off.
16:23:51 <AnMaster> Compare the trains to the buildings for example
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16:26:04 <fizzie> Yes, well, realism probably hasn't really been a goal in most of the games.
16:26:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and that cargo is happy to go to any destination. At least in simutrans all generated cargo has a destination, and it tries path finding through the different companies networks to find a route there.
16:27:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah and you can only make 45 degree turns. Oh and in openttd roads can't go diagonally, only tracks can. Very odd
16:27:28 * AnMaster wants tracks to be vector-something
16:28:00 <AnMaster> high speed track like for TGV certainly doesn't make sharp 45 degree turns for example :P
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17:41:17 <ehird> "The Coming HTML 5 Train Wreck" on xmltoday.org. Brace for stupidity!
17:42:14 <ehird> "(a good indication of just how mature these deliberations are can be found in these IRC threads from a recent WHATWG meeting)"
17:42:38 <ehird> Noo, people on IRC being informal!
17:43:57 <ehird> "Vendors will implement those parts of the HTML 5 spec that happen to best fulfill their own particular objectives, and will be sloppy about implementing anything else - sloppy specs produce sloppy conformance."
17:43:59 <ehird> he should probably have written this before the majority of HTML5 was implemented by browsers
17:44:57 <ehird> Ooh, the comments are even worse:
17:44:58 <ehird> "Ever since I heard about the discontinuation of the xhtml group, I've had the feeling that Google thought they were pulling one over on the web community. They were going to bake some Google specific technology into the spec (which they are already using in Wave). What I don't think they counted on is that if they wind up bringing back the browser wars to try to gain competitive advantage over the other big IT groups, I'll have to take matters into my ow
17:44:58 <ehird> -- and build ENTIRE SITES IN FLASH."
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18:10:44 <ehird> "Yes-Stallman-you-also-helped/Linux"
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18:12:47 <Gregor> I installed Debian GNU/Hurd on my laptop so people would say "is that Linux?" and I'd say "no, it's GNU." and they get confused.
18:21:44 <Pthing> congratulations, you are worse than richard stallman
18:22:33 <ehird> Gregor: do... do you actually... use it?
18:22:51 <ehird> are you... are you even real, man... are you a person
18:26:15 <fax> lol Gregor
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19:05:08 <Asztal> I suppose I should say I'm using GNU/Windows when I'm using mingw.
19:06:15 -!- pikhq has joined.
19:12:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, indeed. Read it hours ago. Forgot what it was about
19:13:33 -!- fax has quit ("Leaving").
19:19:49 <ehird> AnMaster: oerjan: i contend that you both don't actually enjoy iwc anymore.
19:20:24 <ehird> forgetting it so soon :)
19:20:40 <oerjan> there are so many themes
19:21:31 <oerjan> i may know what is happening in each without remembering which was on last
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20:42:28 <ehird> http://zfs.macosforge.org/ RIP Apple's effort to port ZFS to OS X 2006? — 2009
20:42:48 <ehird> Cause of death: Probably CDDL.
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20:57:45 * Sgeo is taking a class on Oracle
20:58:17 <oerjan> the mind boggles why cmeme comes back when the website it links to disappeared years ago...
20:59:22 <oerjan> cmeme is an irc logging bot. but the website it logs _to_ hasn't existed for years
20:59:51 <Sgeo> Maybe it's starting to exist again?
21:00:18 <oerjan> nope, still nonexisting
21:00:27 <oerjan> i've seen it a couple times before
21:01:01 <Slereah> Who's bot is cmeme, though?
21:01:53 <oerjan> this blog may be the owner's: http://www.b9.com/blog/index.html
21:03:28 <oerjan> and on the sabbath too, afaik
21:03:59 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:04:20 <oerjan> um sabbath starts at sunset friday, doesn't it?
21:04:36 <Slereah> I usually just remember "saturday"
21:04:44 * oerjan swats Slereah for being a useless jew -----###
21:04:47 <Slereah> I'm afraid I only celebrate caturday
21:04:55 * Sgeo is Jewish (not beliefwise though)
21:05:00 <Slereah> I should start a caturday thread soon
21:05:19 <Slereah> Let's go to 2chan's neko board
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21:16:45 <ehird> http://ditaa.sourceforge.net/
21:18:40 <ehird> "./.wine/dosdevices/c:/windows/profiles/ehird/My Documents/Colloquy Transcripts/"
21:18:43 <ehird> Now that's just ridiculous
21:20:14 * Sgeo can't draw ASCII diagrams for his life
21:20:32 <Sgeo> Not that I ever tried
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21:35:35 * oerjan swats FireFly since he's easier to hit -----###
21:36:12 <Oranjer> anyways, I'll be back in half 'n' hour
21:36:37 <ehird> `addquote * oerjan swats FireFly since he's easier to hit -----### <FireFly> Meh * FireFly dies
21:36:39 <HackEgo> 94|* oerjan swats FireFly since he's easier to hit -----### <FireFly> Meh * FireFly dies
21:36:57 <FireFly> Oranjer, nope, tea in your fly
21:37:00 <HackEgo> 39|<GKennethR-L> I'm a furry
21:37:04 <HackEgo> 27|<fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
21:37:10 <HackEgo> 22|IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE.
21:37:54 <Sgeo> http://normish.org/sgeo/quotes.txt
21:38:17 <FireFly> 26|<FireFly> Meh <FireFly> ._.
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21:58:21 <Oranjer> what's up with quote 22? did it really access an alternate universe?
22:00:50 <oerjan> that's the only reasonable explanation
22:01:09 <fungot> Oranjer: fwiw sml and scheme are very different, if i tell other people the population at large if not your direct peers.)
22:01:30 <AnMaster> whoa really? is that so fungot?
22:01:31 <fungot> AnMaster: it is. it makes it easy. i'm looking for
22:01:53 <oerjan> fungot is getting more intelligent by the week
22:01:54 <fungot> oerjan: looks like i have to click through dozens of warnings.
22:02:01 <Oranjer> what are you looking for, fungot?
22:02:02 <fungot> Oranjer: like in mips-
22:02:24 <Sgeo> fungot, what do you think about COBOL?
22:02:25 <fungot> Sgeo: and fnord really isn't a productive argument: it'll eventually reduce down to some base case is the empty game which gets close.
22:02:44 <Sgeo> Obviously, when I say anything, it gets dumber
22:02:49 <Oranjer> fungot, are you a reductionist?
22:02:49 <fungot> Oranjer: if you want to view it like that your computer blows up.
22:02:59 <oerjan> maybe intelligence is simply a sufficiently large markov chain
22:03:26 * Sgeo should try to learn what a markov chain is
22:03:27 <Oranjer> fungot, I would like you to exhibit intelligent behavior immediately.
22:03:28 <fungot> Oranjer: in a list? ( new lst) ( if ( sense ahead foe?) x" to give you a hint:
22:03:37 <Oranjer> huh, okay, that didn't work?
22:03:47 <AnMaster> Oranjer, actually maybe it did.
22:03:56 <Oranjer> maybe it was too smart for me???
22:03:59 <AnMaster> "sense ahead" sounds like a primitive AI
22:04:17 <AnMaster> input for a primitive robot AI or such
22:04:46 <Oranjer> and the foe? would be recognition of a "foe", at which point it does action x?
22:05:07 <oerjan> clearly fungot is scheming against us
22:05:07 <fungot> oerjan: an isp is not a language issue, if there is a case for the first, apparently: the product set of a set of flags, like fnord
22:05:09 <Oranjer> or maybe we're reading into it too much
22:05:13 <AnMaster> Oranjer, not sure about that. Need to see the context. Clearly that is just a fragment of the relevant code
22:05:22 <AnMaster> a glitch in the matrix so to say
22:06:11 <Oranjer> Apophenia is the experience of seeing patterns or connections in random or meaningless data.
22:06:28 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia
22:06:55 <AnMaster> no, that is someone else who says that iirc
22:07:08 <Sgeo> Is it just me, or is "Markov chain" not particularly descriptive of what the bot actually does?
22:07:09 <oerjan> tvtropes says that a lot
22:07:45 <Sgeo> AnMaster, it uses a markov chain, but from my understanding, that doesn't really tell you much
22:08:31 <oerjan> oh tv tropes, why art u
22:08:34 <AnMaster> after all it is "colour" so it would seem a natural spelling to use "troupes"
22:09:07 <Oranjer> while I'm okay with using any spelling to convey meaning (if you understand it, it doesn't matter the medium to me), I DO try to use endonyms wherever possible
22:09:22 <HackEgo> * An exonym (from the ἔcw, xo, "out" and ὄnoa, noma, "name") is a name for a place that is not used within that place by the local ... \ [15]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endonym \ * A name used by a group or category of people to refer to themselves or their language, as opposed to a name given to them
22:09:48 <Oranjer> I try to use endonyms as opposed to exonyms
22:09:51 <AnMaster> Oranjer, what has that got to do with this?
22:10:04 <AnMaster> because that `define was too terse
22:10:19 <Oranjer> Tv tropes uses the phrase "TV tropes" to describe itself, so I will use their spelling
22:10:27 <Sgeo> http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Dissociated-Press.html haha
22:10:52 <Oranjer> reminds me of travesty generators
22:11:15 <Oranjer> http://www.eskimo.com/~rstarr/poormfa/travesty.html
22:13:29 <Oranjer> fungot, what do you have to say to prove your sentience?
22:13:30 <fungot> Oranjer: uh, sorry, maybe a longer example? it's in the east side :p
22:21:43 <Oranjer> fungot, do you have a brain?
22:21:43 <fungot> Oranjer: mm. very rare indeedy
22:22:09 <Oranjer> oerjan, certainly you can eat the brain of someone less...important than me?
22:22:20 <Oranjer> because uhhh I'm totally very important, yeah
22:22:43 <fizzie> Fungot must've misread that as "do you like brains?" or something.
22:22:54 <oerjan> ah but i am a socialist zombie. down with the oppressors! then eat their brains.
22:23:39 <Oranjer> I'm not an oppressor! I am a benevolent dictator! I prevent the people from hurting each other and themselves without resorting to a dystopic police state!
22:24:21 <oerjan> that's what they all say.
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22:28:17 <fizzie> (Just a random statement, not really a greeting.)
22:28:19 <Sgeo> "Do you believe in alien encounters?
22:28:20 <Sgeo> Yes, I believe
22:28:20 <Sgeo> I have seen one
22:28:44 <Sgeo> Oranjer, some poll on Facebook
22:28:51 <Sgeo> Advertising some movie
22:29:02 <Oranjer> also, I like how seeing one does not necessarily mean you believe
22:29:12 <Oranjer> I've seen the commo's for that movie
22:29:16 <ehird> [22:01] fungot: oerjan: looks like i have to click through dozens of warnings.
22:29:16 <fungot> ehird: well it _does_ make it a string
22:29:17 <ehird> fungot dislikes vista
22:29:17 <fungot> ehird: mzscheme has a type system
22:29:28 <fizzie> "I have seen one, but I habitually see things that do not really exist."
22:29:49 <Sgeo> I see things that don't exist every night
22:30:37 <AnMaster> <fungot> ehird: mzscheme has a type system <-- it does?
22:30:38 <fungot> AnMaster: why not on your usual os? sounds kinky. :p starting to get it running on da alpha
22:31:04 <Oranjer> awesome, fungot--you are my new hero
22:31:05 <fungot> Oranjer: there was fnord who isn't even in the typical case of actually watching ants duke it out in more interesting things.
22:31:25 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
22:31:26 <ehird> It does have a type system, yes.
22:31:28 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
22:31:38 <ehird> It isn't very good./
22:31:38 <fungot> AnMaster: time to shove off! the name's bandeau. here to build the ocean palace?
22:31:52 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
22:32:02 <ehird> Different babble corpses.
22:32:02 <fungot> Oranjer: see? i like marle better than " princess,' the chosen time has come! he's strong and he's gonna thrash those monsters! yea! is it?
22:32:07 <fungot> Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy)
22:32:11 <ehird> Oranjer: Do the emoticon bug.
22:32:17 <fungot> ehird: letter 390. from a.r. wallace.
22:32:21 <fungot> ehird: in an early chapter :) this volume. when we consider how many parts :) fnord, in 1862 and 1863, by hildebrand in 1864, a post he resigned in 1894 owing to fnord his death was/ result.
22:32:24 <fungot> AnMaster: we are naturally led to inquire how long it is, however,
22:32:31 <fizzie> Darwin's well-known for his overuse of :).
22:32:32 <ehird> An error in the corpse-eater thingy.
22:32:42 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin* discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
22:32:47 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot
22:32:48 <fungot> Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical)
22:32:52 <ehird> fungot: Legalistic!
22:32:53 <fungot> ehird: except as explicitly set out in the
22:32:55 <fizzie> That's what caused all the evolution debates; no-one could take him seriously with all the smileys.
22:32:57 <ehird> fungot: Legalistic^2!
22:32:57 <fungot> ehird: a player who has not changed eir role in a month or more properties all of the switch.
22:33:00 <fizzie> (Note: this is not actually true.)
22:33:01 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
22:33:08 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm picking representative samples for Oranjer
22:33:08 <fungot> AnMaster: mr president, the draft on 3 may 2001. the proposed decision to allow burma membership is a clear danger that a major debate, parliament will give its cooperation. i believe that this position touches the limits of its powers voted by a 95% majority for europe to recover technological leadership through strong investment, above all, in this case the latter falls within the responsibility of the member states in case o
22:33:19 <Oranjer> ehird, you are talking way to fast for human-me!
22:33:26 <ehird> Oranjer: You can scroll up.
22:33:40 <fizzie> Or you can upgrade yourself. It's 2009 and all.
22:33:42 <AnMaster> fungot, I'm not the president. But whatever.
22:33:44 <Oranjer> but it just seems I'm getting a delay in communique
22:33:44 <fungot> AnMaster: mr president, i should like to say that when the council was trying to decide how best to prevent such an attack would be taken by surprise. the governments must have their support.
22:33:51 <fungot> AnMaster: mr president, thank you for allowing me to ask what could have been resolved, at the united nations a significant and quantifiable commercial prejudice for all the key to establishing peace and stability in europe is available. this example was not unusual, unfortunately, is regularly raised during contacts with the council through the presidency of the council, and the future of europe are deeply concerned about the
22:33:59 <ehird> fungot: I am Spartacus^Wthe President!
22:34:00 <fungot> ehird: mr president, today's report is rather disappointing and current events are bearing out the words written by myself only a few years' time, and so that they could feel more closely involved. i only hope that we can make this work better for us and certainly very bad too if we are prepared to do or say. there is increasing concern and that concerns the union' s transport policy because it sustains bad management and fnord
22:34:09 <ehird> fungot: What a shame. We must cooperate.
22:34:12 <fungot> ehird: i will do it in the liberal group deplores the continued failure by the eu which is dominating relations between almera and morocco. in return, it will instead turn it back towards its own people, he called for stability and growth pact in all public finances, and to refrain from any act of violence perpetrated by the islamist guerrilla groups appears to be quite as fascinating in terms of education, to make provision f
22:34:13 <AnMaster> iirc there were some *not* starting in that
22:34:17 <fungot> AnMaster: mr president, i have a third step forward and will contribute to safeguarding biodiversity. agricultural reform is, of course, these studies always have a budget line to do so.
22:34:24 <fungot> AnMaster: madam president, we are of policy-making. an official debate will be held up in this way.
22:34:27 <ehird> fungot: I AM THE PRESIDENT, YOU FOOL!
22:34:28 <fungot> ehird: madame president, i can assure you that, on this issue. the constitution is a challenge, the sustainable fnord policy challenge to which we have embarked upon a slippery slope. this could cause the value of and respect for human rights in egypt and, for instance, can also be reached unanimously. more important than another. but this tendency is not towards the elimination of the " area of freedom, security and defence po
22:34:31 <ehird> fungot: And I am a MAN!
22:34:32 <fungot> ehird: mr president, taken together with our neighbour countries. we are leaving a margin of interpretation for which we shall likewise soon have on the coexistence of two conversion rates, in the world market for power generating equipment is ecu 3 billion a year, they have, and accepts the liberalization of direct mail would be impossible in view of the fact that europe pays, but is denouncing the wall because it does not nee
22:34:36 <ehird> fungot: THANK you.
22:34:40 <fungot> AnMaster: mr president, mr president, ladies and gentlemen, despite the budgetary aid granted, european regions are far from being undemocratic, any interinstitutional agreement is an opportunity to reflect on for tomorrow’s meeting. i think that, for all their drivers, whatever their age.
22:34:44 <fizzie> He's just like a real politician.
22:34:51 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl* ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
22:34:54 <ehird> "Mr President, Mr President, ladies and gentlemen"
22:34:55 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
22:34:59 <fungot> AnMaster: 100 for l 1 to the aec signal is
22:35:02 <ehird> Please welcome the President!
22:35:13 <fungot> AnMaster: when discussing large, even though you have plenty of bytes which make it easy to debug your program needs to check the sprite- foreground collision register, however, you may see thn terms low-byte, high-byte order or lsb ( least significant byte ( is it allowed to take advantage of this pin is normally
22:35:23 <fungot> Selected style: ic (INTERCAL manual)
22:35:26 <ehird> [22:08] AnMaster: after all it is "colour" so it would seem a natural spelling to use "troupes"
22:35:36 <ehird> bah! I am rapidly becoming disillusioned with the non-American spellings!
22:35:39 <ehird> mostly for minimalist purposes.
22:35:48 <fizzie> Incidentally, I might mention that I'm at this sort of an event: http://www.altparty.org/2009/ -- I guess it falls within the limits of possibility that someone else of the .fi people might as well.
22:35:56 <Oranjer> that "though" should become "tho"
22:36:06 <ehird> AnMaster: i.e., colour/color
22:36:12 <ehird> The only defence of the former is tradition
22:36:21 <ehird> it's longer, and doesn't reflect the pronunciation better
22:36:24 <Oranjer> the only defense for many things is tradition
22:36:28 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I would use colour except where part of a brand name (example: "colorsync")
22:36:33 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, but why?
22:36:34 <fungot> AnMaster: because there is no way to pop the top of the characters `i', don't have some of the `m' by `ick'.
22:37:37 <AnMaster> ehird, because I prefer UK English in general. US English sounds so bad. Thus a mental connotation is created (or something)
22:37:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, "alternative" to what?
22:37:52 <ehird> How does it sound bad? That's silly.
22:38:04 <AnMaster> ehird, of course that is subjective
22:38:06 <ehird> Some American accents sound crappy, but the "generic American accent" is pretty unobjectionable, if uninteresting.
22:38:07 <fizzie> AnMaster: Alternative to other demoparties, mostly.
22:38:10 <ehird> Besides, we're on IRC. :P
22:38:16 <Oranjer> I prefer creating an idiolect
22:38:25 <Oranjer> from cribbing from any number of dialects and languages
22:38:42 <AnMaster> Oranjer, anyway does endonyms and such apply if you are not a native speaker of English at all?
22:38:45 <ehird> I use words like "gonna" :P
22:38:50 <ehird> AnMaster: Um, yes?
22:38:53 <AnMaster> plus I learnt UK English in school
22:38:58 <AnMaster> so it is hard to break the habit
22:39:00 <ehird> Endonym merely means "the name they call themselves".
22:39:13 <Oranjer> German's don't call themselves Germans
22:39:15 <AnMaster> ehird, right. Not sure if the word colour has a name for itself ;P
22:39:34 <Oranjer> I respect any group's self-given name
22:39:36 <ehird> Oranjer: German is different, thoughgh
22:39:41 <ehird> ColorSync is the same language
22:39:52 <ehird> but the German name for Germans isn't made for English
22:39:55 <Oranjer> ah! but endonyms are specifically cross-language
22:39:56 <ehird> so it's wrong to use it in English
22:40:13 <Oranjer> we can simulate the pronunciation using english letters
22:40:15 <AnMaster> is US and UK English the same language or separate ones?
22:40:18 <ehird> Their name for themselves is merely a word in their language.
22:40:33 <ehird> The differences are trivial.
22:40:44 <AnMaster> that was my point. Nice you agree
22:40:52 <Oranjer> of course, even that is subjective, the division between dialect and language
22:40:56 <ehird> Oranjer: So, why are you saying "German"?
22:41:08 <ehird> Yes, everything is subjective, stating so to everything doesn't make you interesting
22:41:08 <Oranjer> because I am ignorant of the German's name for themselves
22:41:12 <AnMaster> ehird, is UK and AU English the same languages?
22:41:16 <ehird> Oranjer: THAT'S OFFENSIVE
22:41:21 <Oranjer> something like Deustchlander?
22:41:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Same language, but a larger dialectic difference.
22:41:31 <ehird> Also a good helping of slang.
22:42:25 <Oranjer> also, why wouldn't I want to use a group's name to refer to them?
22:42:50 <ehird> Oranjer: The Germans also talk about themselves in German
22:42:59 <ehird> why wouldn't you want to use a group's words to talk about them?
22:43:08 <ehird> Because it's a different language.
22:43:19 <Oranjer> I see where you're coming from
22:43:49 <Oranjer> what about words that are, quite frankly, offensive?
22:44:01 <ehird> I don't consider words offensive
22:44:04 <ehird> their usage can be
22:44:20 <ehird> http://stali.suckless.org/ ;; sweet!
22:44:35 <Oranjer> if a group does not use a certain word to describe themselves, why should I use that word?
22:44:41 <Oranjer> because it's easier for me?
22:44:46 <Oranjer> that just seems spiteful to me
22:44:49 <AnMaster> <Oranjer> like using "Apache" <-- yeah. LigHTTPd is way better
22:44:50 <ehird> Because their word is a word in another language.
22:44:55 <ehird> Otherwise, yes, use their name.
22:45:01 <ehird> AnMaster: How ironic.
22:45:04 <ehird> It's called lighttpd.
22:45:23 <AnMaster> ehird, ah you noticed the joke :D
22:45:34 <Oranjer> ehird, what are you, L'Académie française?
22:45:36 -!- Halph has joined.
22:45:42 <ehird> AnMaster: Well... it wasn't actually funny, or anything.
22:45:42 <oerjan> ehird: name with raspberry included
22:45:45 <Oranjer> are you concerned about linguistic pollution?
22:45:54 -!- Halph has changed nick to coppro.
22:46:12 <AnMaster> Oranjer, hint: Use "and" at the start of sentences to annoy ehird
22:46:19 <oerjan> le pollution linguistique
22:46:22 <ehird> AnMaster: I only dislike that based on aesthetics, tbh.
22:46:23 <Gregor> And just why would that annoy ehird?
22:46:28 <ehird> It reads awkwardly.
22:46:30 <ehird> Gregor: except like that
22:46:36 <Oranjer> why can I not use Deustchlander, or whatever word those people use to refer to themselves?
22:46:37 <ehird> you're not using and to connect two thingies, so it reads fine
22:46:40 <ehird> but otherwise it's awkward
22:46:44 <ehird> Oranjer: I just covered this, keep up
22:47:21 <ehird> [22:42] ehird: Oranjer: The Germans also talk about themselves in German
22:47:21 <ehird> [22:42] Oranjer: yes, and?
22:47:22 <ehird> [22:42] ehird: why wouldn't you want to use a group's words to talk about them?
22:47:22 <ehird> [22:43] ehird: Because it's a different language.
22:47:22 <ehird> [22:43] Oranjer: haha!
22:47:22 <ehird> [22:43] Oranjer: ahhhh
22:47:24 <ehird> [22:43] Oranjer: I see where you're coming from
22:47:26 <Gregor> (Bad joke:) Whenever I'm talking to somebody from Germany, I use the term "Douche-lander". I don't think they appreciate that.
22:47:31 <Oranjer> I don't care that it's another "language"--why would I? if I can pronounce the name in my own language, and I can simulate its pronunciation with my own written language, why not use it?
22:47:51 <ehird> Oranjer: So, to answer what I said,
22:47:59 <ehird> why don't you use their words and grammatical structure to talk about them too?
22:48:07 <ehird> Your answer is likely "because I'm speaking in English, not in German".
22:48:18 <Gregor> ehird: Knowing the internal name of a group is much much easier than knowing their entire language.
22:48:18 <ehird> I give the same reason as to why not to calk them Deauihdeiuashdwhateverlangers.
22:48:31 <Oranjer> but I can easily use English to simulate their name
22:48:36 <ehird> Gregor: It's not a matter of knowledge, it's a matter of justification, here.
22:48:45 <Gregor> ehird: Yeah, I'm seeing that now. I can offer none.
22:49:03 <ehird> Oranjer: You've merely asserted that.
22:49:08 <ehird> Anyway, this is boring.
22:49:37 <Oranjer> if I am part of a group of people, would I want a separate group of people to refer to my people with their word for "foreigner dipshits"?
22:50:04 <Oranjer> 'tis why I use Roma instead of Gypsie, and Inuit instead of Eskimo
22:50:05 <fizzie> Oh, is *that* what "German" means? I never knew!
22:50:28 <ehird> Inuit is as offensive as Eskimo, iirc.
22:50:30 <Gregor> http://gregcookland.com/journal/uploaded_images/picHasselHoff-747711.jpg <-- Hasselhoff having sex with a dog. NSF-sanity.
22:50:36 <ehird> Or, at least, not unoffensive.
22:50:42 <ehird> Gregor: it's loading
22:50:46 <ehird> why did I click that
22:50:55 <Oranjer> then I shall find the correct endonym! to google!!!
22:51:14 <ehird> Oranjer: Probably Qurntka'lr
22:51:52 <Oranjer> most cold-region languages have no use for clicks
22:52:12 <ehird> I was just trying to show why doing this sort of thing is fruitless
22:52:19 <fizzie> So how do they represent all the "teeth chattering" words, then?
22:52:31 -!- skylord5816 has joined.
22:52:37 <Oranjer> No universal replacement term for Eskimo, inclusive of all Inuit and Yupik people, is accepted across the geographical area inhabited by the Inuit and Yupik peoples.
22:52:38 <ehird> Wow! A LORD of the SKY!
22:52:51 <ehird> Do, you, like, MANAGE the SKY?
22:52:58 * skylord5816 slaps a large trout around a bit with ehird
22:53:03 <fizzie> ehird: Well, it's just one of the at least 5816 such lords.
22:53:21 <skylord5816> Which I haven't bothered to group but are all me.
22:53:30 <ehird> I suppose they're probably a middle-manager.
22:53:38 <Oranjer> no, Gregor, that's bad form, ha
22:53:44 <ehird> skylord5816: so, 1999 called, it wants your nick back
22:54:03 <skylord5816> I came here with a question about BrainF***
22:54:17 <ehird> skylord5816: have you been inducted into the magick order—
22:54:21 <ehird> clearly i do not have to pretend that we're an esoterica channel
22:54:31 <ehird> (we get a lot of them)
22:55:04 <ehird> skylord5816: Anyway, I've never heard of BrainF***, but I've heard of brainfuck.
22:55:32 <ehird> He's not using a wossname, entonym, wossname
22:55:46 <AnMaster> ehird, wait what are you pretending we is an eosterica channel instead this time? XD
22:55:54 <ehird> that was uncalled for
22:55:56 <Oranjer> political correctness is no excuse for assholery!
22:56:01 <ehird> AnMaster: "we is an eosterica"
22:56:06 <ehird> Oranjer: umm, dick
22:56:08 <Oranjer> I shall try to not be a cock to a stranger anymore
22:56:12 <oerjan> we are ostriches, indeed
22:56:16 <ehird> AnMaster: *esoterica
22:56:18 <AnMaster> skylord5816, keeping on topic seems hard today
22:56:24 <skylord5816> Let's say we have a [. Does the corresponding ] have to be called when the pointer is pointing to the same spot? e.g. is [<] acceptable?
22:56:33 <ehird> skylord5816: It is acceptable.
22:56:39 <ehird> skylord5816: There is no such restriction
22:56:59 <AnMaster> skylord5816, [<] is of course valid
22:57:00 <Oranjer> what's your real question?
22:57:01 <fizzie> [<] is even a not-uncommon idiom.
22:57:19 <skylord5816> My other question (I sort of knew the first, but wasn't sure) is whether the zero check is evaluated at the [ or the ]/
22:57:32 <fizzie> Well, common's not uncommon.
22:57:37 <Oranjer> I thought that, not sure though
22:57:51 <ehird> Well, if the ] jumps to the [ and not one instruction after it, it can omit the check.
22:57:52 -!- adam_d has joined.
22:57:58 <ehird> But that's less efficient.
22:58:10 <AnMaster> skylord5816, both. It corresponds to while(*ptr != 0) { ... }
22:58:10 <ehird> ? is useless, tell me what you don't understand
22:58:20 <Gregor> Semantically, it's definable either way. It's usually implemented as both checking, but like they said you can always have the ] jump to the [, and have the [ peform the check.
22:58:46 <Oranjer> the more ya think you know!
22:58:52 <AnMaster> Oranjer, skylord5816 Gregor, but if the cell is 0 on *first entry* you should skip the entire loop
22:59:02 <AnMaster> so well you have to check on [
22:59:04 <Gregor> Yes, [ always needs a check.
22:59:15 <ehird> Gregor: NOT NECESSARILY
22:59:17 <ehird> Make [ jump to the ], and have it check
22:59:22 <ehird> (Note: This is awful)
22:59:24 <Gregor> ehird: OK, that could work :P
22:59:25 <skylord5816> so if a[0] is 0, and a[1] is 1, and p is 0, would [>+] run?
22:59:49 <Oranjer> awful horrible stench of refuse
23:00:00 <Oranjer> Most Apacheans may not like to be called Apache and rather call themselves by the term from their language (e.g. Inde "Apache, person" in Mescalero).
23:00:02 <Gregor> It's while (a[p]) {...}, not do { ...} while(a[p])
23:00:16 <ehird> "Apache, person" how racist! :P
23:00:25 <ehird> skylord5816: let me define the two commands
23:00:32 <ehird> [ If the current cell is 0, jump past the corresponding ]
23:00:40 <ehird> ] If the current cell is not 0, jump past the corresponding [
23:00:49 <ehird> You can also make ] be "Jump to the corresponding ["
23:00:53 <ehird> so that the [ runs next
23:00:55 <ehird> but that's less efficient
23:01:02 <ehird> (the [ then does the check)
23:01:12 <AnMaster> skylord5816, see what Gregor said about the matching C construcrt
23:01:36 <skylord5816> so... [something] will run if the [ is non-zero and the ] is non-zero?
23:02:07 <skylord5816> I don't get Gregor's example, it's been a while since I last messed around with C.
23:02:25 <ehird> skylord5816: It's a loop.
23:02:38 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:02:43 <ehird> skylord5816: [something] just means "while the current cell is non-zero, run something"
23:02:49 <ehird> It's really simple.
23:03:01 <ehird> The cell the pointer is on...
23:03:06 <ehird> That > and < move...
23:03:09 <ehird> And + and - change...
23:03:19 -!- fax has joined.
23:03:26 <FireFly> So pretty much while (mem[pointer] != 0) { }
23:03:33 <ehird> He already said he doesn't kknowow C.
23:04:11 * AnMaster gives up trying to explain in order to not confuse it even more
23:04:32 <ehird> Well, clearly you've forgotten it, so...
23:04:37 <ehird> It's not really one-line, is it
23:05:33 <AnMaster> <skylord5816> I do, but I've not used it in a while. <-- joke I presume?
23:06:01 <skylord5816> Nope... the more I stay out of C the less I'm frustrated.
23:06:17 <Gregor> !c printf("Any amount of C can be on one line, so \"one-line C\" is meaningless.\n");
23:06:17 <ehird> Your tendency to make jokes without humour, AnMaster, has made you misdetect any old thing as a joke.
23:06:17 <EgoBot> Any amount of C can be on one line, so "one-line C" is meaningless.
23:06:17 <ehird> Least you've got that right.
23:06:22 <AnMaster> ehird, I actually found if funny
23:06:24 <ehird> skylord5816: That paste confuses me.
23:06:34 <AnMaster> <EgoBot> Any amount of C can be on one line, so "one-line C" is meaningless.
23:07:02 <Gregor> Minus the vagaries of CPP
23:07:10 <Gregor> With its stupid '#' having to be the first non-whitespace on a line.
23:07:32 <Gregor> But since you can always just include the headers inline instead of using CPP at all, who cares ;)
23:07:39 <ehird> cpp is so upsettingly crap
23:07:50 <coppro> officially, you can't do so for standard headers
23:08:03 <skylord5816> I was using AutoHotkey for the translation.
23:08:07 <Gregor> coppro: Officially oshmishially.
23:08:12 <skylord5816> http://www.autohotkey.com/docs/Tutorial.htm
23:08:30 <ehird> I mean, nice program... bad language.
23:08:58 <ehird> cpppp: sed 's/#./\n/g'
23:09:11 <ehird> #include <stdio.h> #. #include <stdlib.h>
23:10:08 <Gregor> ehird: #define concat(a, b) a ## b
23:10:23 <AnMaster> !befunge98 a"roge"20g"G">:#,_@
23:10:24 <fax> #define a ## b a ## b
23:10:26 <ehird> I'm scared — what does that let you achieve with CPP?
23:10:43 <Gregor> ehird: concat(hello, world) becomes helloworld
23:10:44 <ehird> I mean, what is its relevance to what I said?
23:10:46 <coppro> fax: congratulations. You made a syntax error with cpp
23:10:54 <Gregor> ehird: And your sed script would break that.
23:10:58 <AnMaster> coppro, oh? nothing worse *phew*
23:11:05 <ehird> Gregor: I corrected it to #\.
23:11:08 <coppro> that's no small accomplishment!
23:11:14 <skylord5816> http://pastebin.com/d32c0e3b4 <- in BF, AHK, and C
23:11:30 <ehird> skylord5816: That's not C.
23:11:46 <Gregor> ehird: I thought it was doing a different thing entirely :P
23:11:46 <ehird> while (array[pointer] != 0) {
23:11:52 <coppro> AnMaster: well, they don't come up often, because mostly CPP just tokenizes and ignores
23:12:31 <coppro> yeah, that's one of the few places where it pays attention
23:12:33 <AnMaster> what the hell is that language
23:13:17 <ehird> The last one isn't C, so I wouldn't trust any of skylord5816's code...
23:13:40 <ehird> AnMaster: AutoHotkey is a macro thing for Windows
23:13:46 <ehird> Automate applications, etc
23:13:52 <AnMaster> ehird, eh... ok. Applescript style?
23:13:57 <ehird> Handy, but the language is pretty... typical.
23:14:04 <ehird> AnMaster: Doesn't require application support.
23:14:29 <AnMaster> ehird, well, since almost all Mac apps seems to have such support that is no issue on mac
23:14:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Less than I'd like.
23:15:00 <ehird> (almost all apps support it, but I don't think most apps give total control)
23:17:00 <ehird> boy, I hate Genuine Windows Validation bullshit
23:17:13 <coppro> makes pirating so tough, eh?
23:17:26 -!- skylord5816 has left (?).
23:17:32 <Gregor> My solution is to not use Windows.
23:17:33 <ehird> it's booting into safe mode and running one executable
23:17:37 <ehird> Gregor: I'm toying with a VM
23:17:43 <ehird> it's like a retarded dog in a box
23:17:52 <ehird> amusing, but ignorable
23:18:01 <ehird> FireFly: FUCK PETA
23:18:20 <ehird> coppro: anyway, even regardless of pirating, it perfectly demonstrates Microsoft's customer hostility.
23:19:16 <ehird> "BOO! Activate Windows!"
23:19:32 <ehird> coppro: shit, I had to pirate my OWN LEGIT XP copy earlier
23:19:35 <ehird> because I'd used my serial 5 times
23:19:50 <ehird> so i downloaded an iso with a crack and said fuck it.
23:25:40 <ehird> "Poop, dood. Poop!" is a palindrome.
23:25:57 <ehird> `define diplodrome
23:26:02 <ehird> !define diplodrome
23:26:09 <ehird> `12w3edtgyhujikolp;[']
23:26:09 <ehird> Gregor: which is it
23:26:32 <ehird> `define diplodrome
23:26:35 <ehird> Oranjer: you make up words.
23:26:41 <Gregor> But "no output" just means that google define:diplodrome had no output :P
23:26:46 <Oranjer> http://www.halfbakery.com/lr/idea/Kind_20Red_20Kindred_20%28The_20Diplodrome%29
23:26:59 <Oranjer> I did not make up the word
23:28:10 <ehird> Anagram stories are more fun!
23:28:29 <ehird> (Anagrams of subsets permitted; pick a word, take all of them; they're your vocabulary.)
23:28:33 <ehird> Plus some common English words.
23:28:48 <ehird> "Atoms molt the stoma moats of atoms." is a snippet from one I wrote a while back...
23:29:15 <ehird> "Polish shops ruin hips" or something like that
23:29:35 <Oranjer> I heard it had some anagrams, looking it up now
23:29:58 <ehird> Remember to include subsets
23:30:30 <ehird> wait, it can't have been "Atoms molt the stoma moats of atoms.", that repeats atoms
23:30:35 <ehird> well, you get the idea
23:31:51 <ehird> wtf, the genuine advantage fails again?
23:31:54 <ehird> maybe i applied the crack wrongly
23:32:39 <ehird> you are bewildered by everything :P
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23:34:01 <Deewiant> ehird: With XP, a crack isn't enough to circumvent WGA
23:34:12 <Deewiant> (Unless the cracks have advanced since I last checked)
23:34:21 <ehird> I swear this worked normally last time
23:34:37 <ehird> AnMaster: what is the cause to say ? to that
23:34:41 <ehird> obviously it's another crack of some kind
23:35:12 <ehird> It blinds WGA's validator
23:35:36 <ehird> lol, I wonder if "javascript:void(window.g_sDisableWGACheck='all')" still works
23:35:47 <ehird> I'm still on creaky old Windows Update!
23:35:51 <ehird> Practically dinosauric
23:36:53 <Deewiant> Same thing if you just want to download some stuff from microsoft.com that's WGA-protected.
23:37:13 -!- lament has joined.
23:37:27 <ehird> Deewiant: Also non-microsoft.com, to be pedantic
23:38:18 <Deewiant> And my screen is bigger than your screen so I win
23:38:21 <lament> !!!!ESOTERIC!!!!!!!!!!!
23:38:27 <ehird> Deewiant: BUT WILL IT BE?
23:38:35 <ehird> AnMaster: You realise that esr actually thinks some pagan god possesses him?
23:38:38 <ehird> I think during sex or something
23:38:45 <ehird> He has an awful page on his awful website about it
23:38:49 <ehird> He is an awful man
23:38:51 <AnMaster> ehird, no I wasn't aware of *that*
23:39:16 <ehird> Deewiant: that mublinder site wants me to register ;_____;
23:39:43 <ehird> lament is our friendly neighbourhood op.
23:39:45 <Oranjer> why did you throw out affixes?
23:39:51 <AnMaster> ehird, you need to activate mublinder ;P
23:39:58 <lament> I'm an op, so I can do whatever I feel like.
23:39:58 <ehird> he is, to put it curtly, insane
23:40:22 <ehird> BANBANBANBANBANBANBANBANBANME
23:40:33 <Oranjer> ehird, do those bans cancel out?
23:40:33 <ehird> BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
23:40:49 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o lament.
23:40:50 <Oranjer> lament, do you know what the opposite of meta is?
23:40:50 <ehird> Heh, there are a bunch of logins
23:40:52 <AnMaster> ehird, why do you think he is insane?
23:40:52 -!- lament has set channel mode: +b *!*n=ehird@212.183.134.*.
23:40:56 -!- lament has set channel mode: -o lament.
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23:41:39 <AnMaster> ehird, did you expect that? /msg
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23:49:20 <AnMaster> for reference I dislike US-centric-ness
23:51:01 <Oranjer> oh, and I'm not here right now
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23:54:19 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic* irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
23:54:33 <fungot> Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages)
23:56:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think fungot died, it doesn't even respond to CTCP ping
23:57:21 <AnMaster> FireFly[DS], try the right symbol :P
23:57:38 <FireFly> Blame the font on the DS client
23:57:55 <FireFly> I think it's hard coded :P
23:58:45 <AnMaster> FireFly, and what is >.> then?
23:59:01 <FireFly> Apparently I have no ` at all on the DS
23:59:10 * AnMaster remembers -_- and >_< and some more
23:59:37 <FireFly> it's hard to describe smileys