00:00:02 <AnMaster> FireFly[DS], can you type åäöÅÄÖ?
00:00:02 * FireFly refuses to pluralise smiley correctly
00:00:39 <FireFly> I defined å, ä and ö as "macro" thingies
00:00:42 <FireFly> So I can insert them with alt-1, alt-2 and alt-3
00:01:14 <AnMaster> FireFly[DS], Look there → ← In between those arrows. (See them on the DS?)
00:01:20 <FireFly> The client supports DCC, logging, and some other awesome stuff
00:01:36 <FireFly[DS]> <01:00:26> <AnMaster> FireFly[DS], Look there → ← In between those arrows. (See them on the DS?)
00:02:14 <FireFly> Meh, it fails at ASCII åäö too :P
00:02:19 -!- boily has quit ("leaving").
00:03:15 <FireFly> Anyway, the DSOrganize client I used before can handle åäö correctly
00:03:36 <FireFly> due to being able to set up your own charmap manually in config files
00:03:48 <FireFly> So I altered it to wannabe-svorak (had to change some stuff for it to fit)
00:03:59 <AnMaster> okt 14 00:04:58 <AnMaster> ⎧ n + 1 if m = 0
00:03:59 <AnMaster> okt 14 00:04:58 <AnMaster> A(m,n) = ⎨ A(m - 1, 1) if m > 0 and n = 0
00:03:59 <AnMaster> okt 14 00:04:58 <AnMaster> ⎩ A(m - 1, A(m, n - 1)) if m > 0 and n > 0
00:04:05 <AnMaster> FireFly, how does that show up there
00:04:19 <FireFly> Well, quite horrible, yeah
00:04:25 <AnMaster> FireFly, and does it show up well on your normal computer?
00:04:38 <fax> line spacing is too big
00:06:05 <AnMaster> Oranjer, what is "haha" about?
00:06:20 <fax> he's laughing at your attempt to render equations
00:06:40 <AnMaster> fax, no, at your failure to handle the perfectly fine unicode :P
00:06:57 <Oranjer> the link looks hell of different from what I saw
00:07:24 <AnMaster> Oranjer, then your font fails, your unicode support fails, or you aren't using monospaced font (even more fail)
00:07:47 <Oranjer> I am PUZZLED by this turn of events
00:07:57 <AnMaster> Oranjer, you are always anyway
00:08:27 -!- lament has joined.
00:09:52 <lament> if i don't do it, i'll forget about it
00:09:55 <Sgeo> I suppose there's no easy way to search for something that matches a regex in SQL?
00:09:58 <lament> and then i'll never do it
00:10:25 <AnMaster> lament, what about if and only if this renders like in the reference drawing (url in a few seconds):
00:10:28 <AnMaster> okt 14 00:04:58 <AnMaster> ⎧ n + 1 if m = 0
00:10:28 <AnMaster> okt 14 00:04:58 <AnMaster> A(m,n) = ⎨ A(m - 1, 1) if m > 0 and n = 0
00:10:28 <AnMaster> okt 14 00:04:58 <AnMaster> ⎩ A(m - 1, A(m, n - 1)) if m > 0 and n > 0
00:10:36 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o lament.
00:11:07 <AnMaster> lament, I would say "FAIL" but what if your +o, I don't
00:11:12 -!- lament has set channel mode: -b *!*n=ehird@212.183.134.*.
00:11:22 <lament> what are all those other entries in the ban list?
00:11:55 <AnMaster> lament, I think some were trolls
00:12:39 <AnMaster> lament, not sure I would say "all those"
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00:19:07 <ehird> only the second time you've said night today.
00:19:25 <AnMaster> ehird, well yeah. But I didn't use an arrow yet did I ?
00:23:45 <ehird> There are other friendly front-ends to Linux, including the K Desktop Environment (KDE), but Gnome is quickly becoming the GUI of choice to run on top of Linux.
00:23:45 <ehird> "I don't think KDE has a future at this point, it's not completely free yet and it's bound to a single programming language in Unix. Gnome from the very beginning has been accessible through any language. We are providing the GUI for all the languages and programmers can choose the language they like the most," says Miguel.
00:24:01 <Warrigal> Hey, it's an Ackermann function.
00:25:08 <Warrigal> Which I say to imply that the thing I wrote on a random whiteboard was also an Ackermann function.
00:25:31 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
00:26:27 <Warrigal> What I wrote was A(0,n) = n+1, A(m,0) = A(m-1,m) for m > 0, A(m,n) = A(m-1,A(m,n-1)) for m, n > 0, or something like that.
00:35:20 <ehird> "If you really must, pirate, feel guilty and don't lie to yourself." // boy, having sound economic arguments against copyright sure does help me sleep easy
00:58:50 <Oranjer> imagine there is an accent on the e
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00:59:43 <Oranjer> why...why does everyone in my life leave me?
01:03:00 <oerjan> try using a zinc toothpaste
01:03:21 <Oranjer> no thanks, I do not know the effect zinc would have on my dentata
01:04:47 <oerjan> my how opulent we are today
01:05:04 <ehird> lament: my first thought :/
01:05:05 <ehird> sp3 download so slow ;__;
01:05:08 <Oranjer> my...my gods, do those with vagina dentata brush their teeth?
01:05:12 <ehird> so slow that I use two underscores ;__;
01:05:26 <ehird> "Have to go brush my vagina now."
01:05:51 <oerjan> Oranjer: you mean, both sets? i think using two different toothbrushes might be in order
01:06:18 <Oranjer> also, ehird, I hate it when she uses that excuse
01:08:23 <oerjan> well if you must peep i can't stop you
01:09:28 <Oranjer> you'd best, or ah'll have to ask me peeps for the whip!
01:09:52 <ehird> no i mean this sp3 download
01:09:54 <Oranjer> it's almost as if they're designed against that
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01:20:03 <ehird> is it even downloading at all, I don't think so
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02:16:30 -!- Oranjer has left (?).
02:16:48 <augur> how come oranjer always leaves before i show yp?
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03:31:49 <ehird> http://www.idefex.net/b3takhan/graphs/ffffffffffffu*.png
03:33:54 <Gregor> Somebody's ripping off Ryan North :P
03:35:26 <Sgeo> ehird, there needs to be a 3 dimensional graph, for number of f's and number of u's
03:35:38 <ehird> Gregor: The Kha*n thing predates that
03:35:44 <ehird> and so does that graph generator
03:35:51 <ehird> RYAN NORTH IS AN IMITATOR
03:36:16 <ehird> it would be fun to have a 3d graph though
03:36:22 <ehird> if i wasn't lazy i'd do it in mathematica
03:36:51 <Gregor> Well excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me, princess!
03:44:49 <ehird> A spiralling staircase of uncut grass!
03:49:15 <ehird> http://stali.suckless.org/ has made me want to play around with compiling linux kernels
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05:08:26 <fungot> Oranjer: so with all this in mind, please look at the very beginning of the article. we don't have an article about settlements, fnord or fnord.
05:10:19 * Sgeo starts worshiping the shit
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05:18:09 <Oranjer> oh no augur oh shit oh shit
05:18:34 <augur> tell me more of your silly ideas
05:18:49 <Oranjer> that's my second best pick-up line, actually
05:19:01 <augur> are you hitting on me?
05:19:14 <augur> are you a sexy gay boy?
05:19:27 <augur> its a simple question!
05:19:33 <augur> are you sexy, gay, and a boy
05:20:00 <augur> well stop hitting on me then! :|
05:20:19 <Oranjer> you linguists read to much into things ahhhh
05:20:59 <augur> its more that ive been on a kick lately fucking with people like that
05:21:06 <augur> poor kids in in proggit
05:21:15 <Oranjer> no idea what that means but okay
05:22:20 <Oranjer> I should probably ask you, as I have heard it is a sorta-controversial thing amongst linguists
05:22:40 <augur> oh no controversy! :O
05:22:43 <Oranjer> what is your stance on the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis?
05:23:09 <augur> the extent to which it "exists" is boringly uninteresting.
05:23:48 <Oranjer> wait, the controversy, or the phenomena described by the Hypothesis?
05:27:20 -!- Oranjer1 has joined.
05:28:05 <augur> the S-W hypothesis.
05:28:18 <augur> the extent to which it exists is boring.
05:32:12 <ehird> AIUsdhasiufhdiuhsiguhsdfg
05:32:28 <ehird> ugh, about the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis
05:32:34 <augur> its a stupid hypothesis.
05:32:38 <ehird> almost entirely debunked
05:32:39 <augur> hence why were not talking about it anymore.
05:32:44 <ehird> and what little remains is entirely unfun!
05:33:04 <ehird> sapir-whorf is kinda like one of those things i sorta wish was true
05:33:07 <Oranjer1> I have moved on to Sociology! :O
05:33:16 <augur> so im watching Moon
05:33:17 <ehird> also quantum tunneling for FTL transmission
05:33:34 <ehird> i love the name of that movie
05:33:39 <ehird> it has completely monopolised
05:33:41 <Oranjer1> (I was just thinking of that word)
05:33:45 <augur> they're doing the whole "space mission so we have to send recorded videos and blah blah blah so far away no communication oh no isolation D:"
05:33:46 <ehird> and removed it from the pool
05:33:50 <ehird> of all future moon-related movies
05:33:56 <ehird> and it does this JUST BECAUSE IT CAN
05:34:03 <ehird> translation to all lunar-related movie makers:
05:34:18 <augur> the problem with this little scenario is
05:34:20 <ehird> "Nightstar... wait"
05:34:27 <augur> the moon is only 2 seconds away by radio
05:34:29 <Oranjer1> "That thing in space that SURROUNDS us"
05:34:37 <Oranjer1> they aren't using radio, augur
05:35:00 <augur> it takes five seconds to look this kind of thing up
05:35:05 <ehird> augur: would you prefer they called it
05:35:13 <ehird> Andromeda 33C-01/22348576-4
05:35:16 <augur> you couldve at least put the base around jupiter or saturn or something
05:35:18 <Oranjer1> wait--how do we know it's our moon? can he see earth from that?
05:35:19 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection).
05:35:29 <augur> because that way it would take time for the messages to travel to earth
05:35:35 -!- Oranjer has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
05:35:40 -!- Oranjer1 has changed nick to Oranjer.
05:35:41 <ehird> the moon is nicer than those places, though.
05:35:47 <ehird> it's all rocky and grey!
05:35:57 <ehird> ...like an emo kid...
05:36:05 <augur> you're an emo kid.
05:36:29 <augur> youve got long black hair
05:36:35 <augur> you look like you're gay but swear you're not
05:36:57 <Oranjer> now now, that is no way to talk to an emo herd!
05:37:02 <augur> and you complain all the time about people mistreating you because they just dont understand
05:37:06 <Oranjer> they might cause a suicidal stampede!
05:37:09 <ehird> *cut cut cut cut CUT CUT CUT CUT CUT CUT*
05:37:14 <ehird> CUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUT
05:37:23 <ehird> IT'S COMING FOR YOU
05:37:34 <ehird> *suddenly, My Chemical Romance plays*
05:37:48 <augur> have you seen galipokas little video with that at the end?
05:38:15 <augur> with making fun of emo kids
05:38:21 <ehird> making fun of emo kids? HOW NOVEL
05:38:51 <augur> at the end he plays a very brief clip with the "i think im emo" song, and a video of him sawing at his wrists with a pair of plastic safety scissors
05:39:25 <Oranjer> I want to see an emo kid use a saw
05:39:51 <Oranjer> an emo kid falls off a church roof, arms stretched out, and his wrists land on upturned saw blades
05:40:42 <augur> an emo kid kills himself in the woods
05:40:46 <augur> does he make a sound?
05:41:32 <Oranjer> I have never been able to tell the difference
05:41:40 <ehird> IT IS IN FACT THE SAME WAY AS YOU DIE.
05:41:51 <ehird> YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
05:42:04 <ehird> no, spontaneous quantum existence failure
05:42:23 <ehird> yes you can, with enough luck
05:42:38 <Oranjer> There's no luck in quantum mechanics! HA
05:44:56 <ehird> i like this rapid-fire subjectness
05:45:18 <Oranjer> ha, this is gonna get one of us killed, I know it
05:45:45 <ehird> bullshit, bunkum, designed to control the masses, unfalsifiable, god of the gaps is rapidly failing, yawn
05:46:08 <augur> dont you pay attention?
05:46:27 <augur> also, you suck at linguistics.
05:46:31 <Oranjer> I thought you were being metaphysical or whatever, like you were watching it in your head
05:46:43 <Oranjer> that's no way to talk to a stranger!
05:46:53 <Oranjer> No one should be a cock to a stranger, *ever*.
05:48:07 <augur> its not that they screwed up ehird
05:48:07 <augur> the satellite that normally would relay life communications is "down"
05:48:53 <Oranjer> what are we gonna do about: childhood indoctrination?
05:49:42 <ehird> wait for the religious to die off.
05:50:02 <Oranjer> that can't happen--*they don't believe in birth control!* :O
05:50:19 <Oranjer> *everyone* can't move to the uk
05:50:26 <ehird> don't move to the UK— it's shit
05:50:43 <Oranjer> also, eugenics would hardly fix childhood gullibility
05:50:50 <ehird> it'd stop the religious breeding :P
05:51:05 <ehird> (well, with a sufficiently brutal program. of course the ethics of that could be debated, but MAD SCIENTIST TIME!)
05:51:27 <Oranjer> and they control missiles and shit
05:51:37 <ehird> well, I'm assuming you're in a position of authority
05:51:49 <Oranjer> assume I am a street urchin, of course
05:51:52 <ehird> or at least with a similar-minded governmental body
05:51:56 <Oranjer> assume you are you and I am I
05:52:06 <Oranjer> how do we stop childhood indoctrination???
05:52:07 <ehird> Oranjer: serial killing, followed by suicide as the only way to fix your now permanently damaged psyche
05:52:31 <Oranjer> I would be acting as an "atheist role model"
05:52:55 <Oranjer> and it would just give the religious an excuse to shove GAAAWD down the kid's throats
05:53:33 <Oranjer> also, ehird, I doubt you've actually thought this out--are you even trying anymore? or have you given up?
05:53:34 <ehird> serial killing = every single religious person, naturally
05:53:52 <ehird> oh you want real solutions?
05:54:10 <ehird> singularity! has some side-effects. may contain peanuts.
05:54:30 <Oranjer> so we hasten the Singularity, wonderful
05:54:34 <ehird> side-effects include complete extinction of humanity as we know it, earth becoming a minor datapoint, etc etc etc, do not use while pregnant
05:54:52 <Oranjer> any ideas how to do that by 2030?
05:55:50 <ehird> augur: what, by studying linguistics?
05:56:48 <augur> i just wanted to continue the whole
05:56:55 <augur> thing that you had there
05:57:00 <ehird> elaborate on "im working on it" :P
05:57:33 <augur> i /am/ working on something that might have applications in that domain
05:57:44 <ehird> doesn't that apply to like
05:57:47 <Oranjer> oh, sorry, I didn't notice the Walrus in the room, sorry
05:57:48 <ehird> most of all science
05:58:06 <Oranjer> WHAT HAVE YOU GOT TO lose? your dignity?
05:58:07 <augur> but i mean more directly, ehird.
05:58:14 <ehird> Oranjer: your caps lock?
05:58:20 <augur> yeah i could lose that.
05:58:49 <augur> part of the work i do on linguistics also involves a conceptual system
05:59:01 <augur> that might be extendable to some AI tasks
05:59:32 <ehird> i'm fairly sure enso damages your hands (also it's unmaintained)
06:00:19 <ehird> damages your hands = typing text while holding capslock
06:00:23 <ehird> your left hand will looooooove you
06:00:57 <ehird> like the "OH GOD THE CRIPPLING PAIN" kind
06:01:00 <ehird> wait, that's still ambiguous
06:01:16 <augur> enso is boringly simple.
06:01:31 <ehird> boringly simple is a pretty good praise of usability
06:01:38 <Oranjer> who shall suggest the next topic?
06:01:44 <ehird> boring = i didn't notice it bother me, simple = i didn't have to think much
06:01:47 <augur> and aza raskin makes me want to punch him in the face
06:01:50 <ehird> of course useless is rather less praisey....
06:01:50 <augur> he talks artificially
06:02:04 <Oranjer> what's wrong with the Aza to you, punk?
06:02:11 <ehird> although jef is cooler
06:02:30 <ehird> Enso was like the prototype for ubiquity, except ubiquity makes you use firefox; eww.
06:02:34 <augur> but its ... useless
06:02:50 <Oranjer> ehird, firefox's awesome bar removes most of the use of ubiquity
06:03:02 <ehird> it doesn't do anything ubiquity does
06:03:07 <ehird> and ubiquity postdates the awesomebar
06:04:33 <augur> i want to build an agent program.
06:04:39 <Sgeo> Define "agent"
06:05:06 <augur> one of those things that chases renegages through the matrix!
06:05:49 <Oranjer> "Captain! What do we do now!" "Don't Worry--we'll just have to RE-ENGAGE!"
06:05:50 <ehird> antecedent bricks, i should sleep soon :)
06:06:04 <augur> and by that i mean
06:06:04 <augur> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_agent
06:07:07 <augur> something that has a relatively general understanding of the workings of the computer's software (in the sense that quicksilver does)
06:07:49 <augur> but which can be issued complex commands (preferably verbally) that might require a more complicated process than simply issuing a single method call to something
06:07:55 <Oranjer> "Agent, Open my Email." "I can't do that, Augur."
06:07:57 <ehird> speech recognition sucks.
06:08:16 <ehird> furthermore, i think clearer while i type
06:08:19 <ehird> so fuck speech recog
06:08:26 <augur> well you can type if you want :p
06:08:27 <ehird> haptic input, and then straight to brain control
06:08:33 <ehird> all the rest is fluff
06:08:50 <augur> i want to try and get something that can take complex linguistic commands and execute them
06:09:05 <ehird> requires strong ai
06:09:22 <Oranjer> why not just use a formalized English or whatever? with a rigid structure?
06:09:23 <augur> quick silver is like a very primitive version of this
06:09:34 <augur> it has a small, but powerful lexicon of nouns and verbs
06:09:47 <ehird> quicksilver doesn't let you issue natural commands at all
06:09:51 <augur> and you can, /effective/y, feed it simple sentences
06:10:09 <augur> ofcourse theyre in the weird quicksilver dialect, but
06:10:43 <augur> what i intend would be something like quicksilver, in that it has a "vocabulary" of sorts
06:10:55 <augur> or more accurately
06:11:11 <augur> it has a subset of english as its grammar
06:11:24 <augur> and it has a well defined QS-like set of hooks into other applications
06:11:43 <augur> hooks which, in this case, interface not with a surface grammatical form like in QS
06:11:51 <augur> but instead with a decomposed semantic representation
06:12:02 <augur> that is defined over the grammar
06:13:22 <augur> theres actually a fairly powerful technique called frame semantics that's been used for automatic story comprehension
06:13:45 <ehird> i need to sleep soon
06:13:54 <augur> enough so that the system can actually use its frame semantic knowledge to take a story about a guy going to a restaurant via train and bus
06:14:00 <augur> and then "going home"
06:14:08 <augur> even tho he had no money
06:14:15 <augur> and if you ask the system how he got home if he has no money
06:14:25 <augur> the computer will say "he probably had a return ticket!"
06:14:42 <augur> so it actually infers beyond what is explicit to what is reasonably deducible
06:14:57 <Oranjer> "Pay for my taxi, FS." "I can't do that, Dave."
06:15:02 <augur> because it has a collection of situational frames that
06:15:26 <Oranjer> I think I would call that anologous relational structures
06:15:41 <ehird> augur: tl;dr almost all of it is hardcoded
06:15:51 <ehird> teaching it about everything = wooooooooooooon't work
06:16:03 <augur> indeed, much of the frame semantic knowledge is hard coded
06:16:06 <augur> but its stuff like
06:16:19 <augur> "train-trips frame"
06:16:21 <augur> or something like that
06:16:39 <augur> which encodes things like who does what etc before during and after a train trip
06:16:46 <Oranjer> A computer that can bisociate? wonderful!
06:16:57 <augur> and then you have a system that can calculate over that
06:17:10 <Oranjer> so how far are you, augur?
06:17:19 <augur> the systems ive seen are indeed limited
06:17:28 <augur> im not looking to make AI from this
06:17:37 <augur> im saying it'd make an interesting quicksilver-like app
06:17:56 <Oranjer> so what *are* you actually doing?
06:18:05 <augur> if you had a set of frame semantics + a linguistic engine
06:18:18 <augur> so that you can issue complex commands that are consistent with the frame semantic knowledge the program has
06:18:22 <augur> and then the program will execute it
06:18:40 <augur> something like a hybrid between quicksilver, applescript, and automator
06:18:59 <augur> watching startrek! :|
06:19:21 <augur> what do you mean what am i doing
06:20:18 <Oranjer> what are you doing, with all these ideas and whatnot for frame thingies and stuff?
06:20:45 <Oranjer> I believe we asked you what you were working on to hasten the Singularity to end religious indoctrination in children
06:20:52 <augur> im working on the conceptual semantic stuff
06:21:14 <augur> which would be necessary for a proper linguistic engine
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06:21:24 <augur> THAT could then be used to construct the agent app
06:21:26 <zzo38> How do you play a infernal offshoot of The Price Is Right?
06:21:47 <Oranjer> by...guessing absurdly large amounts of money?
06:21:52 <zzo38> And if you had to beat the Grim Reaper at one of these games to avoid death, which one would you prefer: chess, poker, or mahjong?
06:21:54 <ehird> i have no idea how to answer that
06:22:08 <Oranjer> less luck then poker or mahjong
06:22:15 <ehird> poker, obviously death is perfect at the other two
06:22:15 <zzo38> I don't know either, but in order to know how to play, you have to know the rules, too, I guess.
06:22:18 <ehird> and poker is the most chance-based
06:22:22 <ehird> so i have the best chance
06:22:30 <Oranjer> hmm, ehird does make a good point
06:22:55 <Oranjer> but why should we assume the ol' Grimmy is the best at chess and mahjong?
06:23:00 <ehird> also, if there's a grim reaper there's probably an afterlife dealie of some sort, so i wouldn't care too much
06:23:08 <ehird> Oranjer: because he's post-mortal.
06:23:14 <ehird> supernatural. antitranscendent.
06:23:21 <Oranjer> he could never have been alive, ya know
06:23:26 <ehird> demon lord of the underworld. well, that's more satan
06:23:27 <zzo38> Yes, these are good point. I thought of it too, of course. But I got the idea at first from something in a list of adventure ideas for D&D game
06:23:37 <ehird> the odds are better that he's better than me, imo.
06:23:46 <Oranjer> heh, okay, you win there ehird
06:25:59 <ehird> Windows VM fun: oh fuck off, IE, I installed your update, so leave me alone and don't aadd me to my goddamn quick launch
06:26:08 <ehird> hee hee this is amusing in some sick, twisted way
06:27:06 <Oranjer> bah! that's why I'm an advocate of 'permission marketing'
06:27:13 <Oranjer> and no, i didn't make that one up
06:27:24 <ehird> what does that even mean
06:28:19 <zzo38> Yes, I also want to know what it means because I don't quite understand completely either.
06:28:32 <Oranjer> okay I will get you the wikiwiki link uh okay
06:28:45 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permission_marketing
06:29:22 <zzo38> I just found the same link
06:29:24 <Oranjer> I'm saying that intrusive software is an expected result of living in a culture infested with interruptive marketing
06:29:49 <ehird> Oranjer: you're boring!
06:29:54 <ehird> also it's the OS's fault.
06:30:30 <Oranjer> :(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
06:31:35 <Oranjer> hey augur what do you think about: E-prime!
06:32:14 <zzo38> If you wrote a Linux distribution, which things would you change?
06:32:25 <zzo38> (Or a completely new OS)
06:32:46 <Oranjer> make it a physics based grammar! yaaaay
06:34:05 <Oranjer> make the the human-computer interaction based entirely on conditionals represented through the physical placement of objects along any number of scales
06:35:18 <Oranjer> merely stating the contradiction without adding anything to the discussion
06:35:34 <augur> there was no contradiction
06:35:35 <Oranjer> no. yes. no. YES. NO. AARFGGHSKF That is how wars are started!
06:35:41 <augur> you used an imperative.
06:35:49 <augur> i simply said no to that imperative.
06:36:42 <Oranjer> doing something with frames
06:37:02 <Oranjer> "I'm a linguist. Doing something with frames!" (copyright)
06:37:16 <ehird> framing your mother
06:41:35 <ehird> yay install sp 3 like a magic
06:42:28 <Oranjer> hey uh I am gone for a bit see you later uh okay
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07:18:35 <ehird> garfieldwithoutgarfieldorjonoranyofthecharactersoranypanelapartfromthefirst.com
07:19:11 <madbr> does your irc client have a proportionnal font?
07:19:51 <madbr> ok here's the first comic
07:19:52 <madbr> .--------------------------.
07:20:08 <madbr> |__________________________|
07:20:14 <ehird> you forgot the horizon line
07:20:18 <ehird> and the different wall and floor
07:20:23 <ehird> and also any plants that may be present
07:20:29 <ehird> the possibilities are endless
07:20:54 <madbr> that's what your mom said
07:29:01 <madbr> about auxlangs, they should have, like, easy to pronounce sounds that most languages have :O
07:29:23 <Oranjer> heh, tell that to augur, he believes natural languages are "efficient enough"
07:29:32 <Oranjer> AUGUR I HAVE SUMMONED YOU!
07:29:59 <augur> and auxlangs often do have easy to pronounce sounds
07:30:18 <madbr> well, natural languages are often not too "clean" but very expressive
07:30:32 <Oranjer> expressive about the familiar, yeah
07:30:45 <madbr> the worst one they have normally is, what, /v/ ?
07:30:53 <augur> /all/ sounds are easy to pronounce
07:31:03 <augur> its just that once you learn a language, you forget how to pronounce them
07:31:21 <augur> its just voiced /f/
07:31:30 <augur> we really should say [v] and [f]
07:31:44 <augur> since /v/ and /f/ are abstract language dependent object
07:31:48 <madbr> well, by that I mean usually they have /b,f,v,w/ since they're romance-derived
07:32:05 <Oranjer> although, I never did learn that IPI thingie majiger
07:32:19 <Oranjer> is there a video tutorial? :O
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07:32:45 <Oranjer> it sucks going through wikipedia, and not knowing how to pronounce those words :(
07:32:51 <madbr> trying to find one that's not english based
07:33:12 <Oranjer> you're looking for tutorials?
07:34:09 <Oranjer> of course, augur, I should probably have clarified before
07:35:06 <Oranjer> it wasn't really efficiency in languages that concerned me, if it was the effectiveness--as in, how effective would (could!) a natural language be when faced with new, unfamiliar phenomena?
07:35:38 <Oranjer> I'm saying that there exists the possibility that a certain artificial language could be created to maximize creativity
07:36:22 <madbr> well, ipa is mostly... hmmm...
07:36:35 <madbr> /a e i o u/ are like spanish vowels
07:37:28 <madbr> /b d f h k l m n p s t v w z/ are pretty much the sounds you expect
07:37:53 <Oranjer> I expect where? what do you mean? what's the context?!?!
07:39:30 <madbr> /g/ is always hard, /j/ is actually "y" (like in german), /q/ is arabic "q", /r/ is rolled like in spanish, /x/ is spanish "j", /y/ is german "ü", /c/ is hungarian "ty"
07:39:56 <madbr> oranjer: that's international phonetic alphabet
07:41:29 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirah%C3%A3_language
07:41:37 <Oranjer> (I love examining that language)
07:42:09 <madbr> wow that is hard to pronounce
07:42:20 <Oranjer> how does one pronounce it?
07:42:44 <madbr> that sort of rr thing? dunno
07:43:13 <Oranjer> how do you pronounce [ɺ͡ɺ̼], augur
07:43:48 <madbr> sounds like rl*tongue hits the bottom of the mouth*
07:44:00 <Oranjer> daaaaamn, I feel like an idiot now
07:45:05 <Oranjer> where did you get that information, madbr?
07:45:14 <Oranjer> can you read that notation?
07:46:09 <augur> yes thats probably the crazy sound that everett talks about
07:46:45 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirah%C3%A3_language, you saw that, right?
07:47:13 <madbr> everett is an anthropologist that worked with pirahã
07:47:17 <augur> im not sure exactly how to pronounce it; im not good with lateral taps
07:47:30 <augur> but its presumably roughly like a japanese "r"
07:47:37 <madbr> Some people say he was not a praticularly good anthropologist
07:47:56 <augur> with the first part with the tongue touching the top lip instead of the alveolar ridge
07:47:59 <madbr> augur: the description says the second part is linguolabial :O
07:48:11 <augur> oh was it the first part?
07:48:29 <Oranjer> description, madbr? where?
07:48:51 <augur> it probably sounds a LOT like the "dle" in "cuddle
07:48:58 <madbr> """[ɺ͡ɺ̼] is a lateral alveolar-linguolabial double flap that has only been reported for this language, where the tongue strikes the upper gum ridge and then strikes the lower lip. However, it is only used in certain special types of speech performances, and so might not be considered a normal speech sound.""
07:50:50 <Oranjer> I dunno, if it conveys info, is it not a "speech sound"?
07:51:40 <madbr> well, this says that it's basically a weird version of /g~n/
07:52:30 <madbr> and basically a substitute where the guy would say /g/ (or its allophone [n]) normally
07:52:44 <augur> the fact that its the ONLY language with it as a speech sound is ... odd
07:53:05 <augur> we know that sign languages have phonology of signs
07:53:19 <augur> so the clear line between what is and isnt a speech sound is complicated
07:53:25 <augur> abstract phonology
07:53:41 <madbr> well, the rr sound is too slow to really work in normal speech in pirahã
07:53:53 <augur> their "phonemes" are "articulatory" aspects of signs
07:54:18 <augur> hand position, shape, speed, etc.
07:54:32 <madbr> i think it mostly means our language part of the brain normally deals with N possibilities
07:54:52 <madbr> ie meaning is decoded into a sequence where each part can be one of N
07:55:05 <augur> some people believe that theres a well defined space of phonetic/phonological phenomena
07:55:17 <augur> and the rest is sort of bootstrapped into language
07:55:25 <augur> i think phonology is boring and so i dont give a shit
07:55:56 <augur> it doesnt seem to be NECESSARY
07:56:04 <madbr> augur: more into grammar? semantics? :)
07:56:11 <augur> syntax and semantics, yep.
07:56:24 <Oranjer> sorry about confusing the defo's of those two before
07:56:28 <augur> if we were in ##compling seppbot would have said by now
07:56:32 <augur> "Chomsky is cunnilingual!"
07:56:46 <augur> seppbot isnt there
07:56:58 <augur> noones there except rziai
07:57:24 <Oranjer> fungot, what do you have to say about linguistics?
07:57:25 <fungot> Oranjer: the taylor's series is also alternately fnord as follows ( i'm using the latex notation here): david ben gurion signed the compensation agreement with germany when there was considerable division over these issues, because these are speculations without " any historical basis".
07:57:53 <Asztal> it even has matched parentheses
07:58:45 <madbr> augur: eh, yeah, phonetics are definitely less vast than those fields
07:58:56 <augur> it has matched parens because it took it from a quote it has stored.
07:59:08 <augur> madbr: its not that phonetics and phonology are less vast
07:59:22 <augur> two paraphrase richard larson
07:59:30 <augur> if it turns out that they're right, so what?
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08:00:16 <Oranjer> fungot, your thoughts on phonology?
08:00:18 <fungot> Oranjer: i've removed the note. --user:jayhenryjayhenry 17:38, 15 march 2007 ( utc)'" i think it would be nice if all the matter in the work of her party of government, and the now illegal immigrants are considered a burden upon the welfare state. implementing socialism on a national scale does not advance socialisms goals fnord, because of his bias, his view is very helpful in understanding some of what has been reported on th
08:00:41 <madbr> true, doesn't have too many deep psychological impacts
08:00:42 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp* youtube
08:00:53 <augur> it doesnt have ANY psychological impacts
08:00:58 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
08:01:04 <fungot> Oranjer: st john is a mangled corpse; i alone know why, and such words as sabaoth, metraton on agla fnord,
08:01:54 <madbr> augur: on the other hand it's much easier to verify, I guess
08:02:54 <madbr> like, if you analyze a language, eventually you get a phonology with N phonemes
08:02:57 <augur> im not interested in phonology.
08:03:42 <augur> mythemes, thats not even linguistics
08:03:49 <augur> graphemes thats only marginally linguistic
08:03:50 <madbr> graphemes is the written version of phonemes
08:04:24 <madbr> they're not very deep either
08:04:55 <Oranjer> well, depth is largely dependent more on how time we've spent on them, eh?
08:05:01 <madbr> dunno, i have a hard time with semantics
08:06:13 <madbr> i can deal with the slighty fuzzy logic of, say, music theory or even phonetics, but semantics are on a whole other scale :D
08:07:36 <Oranjer> the theory that creativity comes from the juxtaposition of seeing one thing in regards to two separate systems
08:07:47 <madbr> as for grammar... well, let's say that having two different classes about it with two completely different analysis of french one semester was a tad scary :)
08:08:34 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Act_of_Creation
08:08:39 <madbr> one was a syntax class with some kinda generativist-derived stuff
08:09:29 <madbr> the other had a completely different system that the teacher referred to as "semantic grammar" I think
08:09:36 <Oranjer> so, the teacher taught both in the same class, at the same time? what?
08:09:44 <madbr> no, two different teachers
08:10:04 <Oranjer> my guess would have been a better class, me thinks
08:10:05 <madbr> different teaching approaches and stuff
08:11:00 <madbr> the second one obviously liked verbose stuff, including stuff that would be much better expressed as a diagram
08:11:21 <Oranjer> I would love a teacher that taught soley with dynamic diagrams
08:11:38 <Oranjer> diagrammatic reasoning!!! yaaaaay!
08:11:44 <madbr> first one was, well, turn a sentence into a tree
08:11:56 <madbr> make sure you do it right
08:12:09 <augur> semantic grammar :|
08:12:13 <augur> he better not have used that term :|
08:12:36 <Oranjer> or is vclops always angry?
08:12:47 <augur> well, theres a computational thing called that
08:12:50 <ehird> `addquote <fungot> Oranjer: the taylor's series is also alternately fnord as follows ( i'm using the latex notation here): david ben gurion signed the compensation agreement with germany when there was considerable division over these issues, because these are speculations without " any historical basis".
08:12:50 <fungot> ehird: and up the hill.
08:12:53 <HackEgo> 95|<fungot> Oranjer: the taylor's series is also alternately fnord as follows ( i'm using the latex notation here): david ben gurion signed the compensation agreement with germany when there was considerable division over these issues, because these are speculations without " any historical basis".
08:13:02 <augur> but its pretty un-used afaik
08:13:07 <augur> and not well documented
08:13:27 <Oranjer> ehird, why document the random gibberings of an old bot?
08:13:52 <ehird> not significantly worse than the other 94 quotes
08:14:00 <madbr> augur: it had concepts like nominal substantives and determniation relationships
08:14:10 <augur> im not sure that those mean :D
08:14:20 <madbr> nominal substantives = nouns
08:14:58 <Oranjer> are there other kinds of substantives?
08:14:59 <madbr> determination relationships = the relationship between nouns, articles, adjectives, nominal complements...
08:15:14 <madbr> yes, adjectival substantives
08:15:31 <Oranjer> what is a substantive, anyway? the word itself?
08:15:42 <madbr> it's an old latin term for noun I think
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08:16:11 <madbr> he also had a distinction between verbal substantive and verbal adjective
08:16:43 <madbr> oh yeah, it was nominal adjective for adjectives, not the other thing I said
08:16:55 <augur> sounds pretty useless man
08:17:11 <FireFly> Hm, sounds like I jumped into some interesting conversation
08:17:16 <madbr> oranjer: well, the distinction is that the substantive was the sentence's topic but the adjective wasn't
08:17:41 <Oranjer> so, subjects and compliments and adjuncts?
08:18:06 <madbr> augur: well, the determination relationship stuff worked but some other stuff was a bit crazy
08:18:25 <augur> the whole thing just seems stupid
08:18:32 <augur> "nominal substantive"
08:18:35 <augur> just uckin say noun
08:18:58 <augur> when you go through the trouble of obfuscating well established terms for no good reason, its usually because youre full of shit
08:19:19 <Oranjer> I always found using new names, names that, perhaps, reveal alternatives within it, are useful
08:19:33 <Oranjer> like, a noun is a noun, but when you define it as a "nominal substantive"
08:19:45 <Oranjer> you leave the door open for other types of "substantives"
08:19:55 <Oranjer> and other things described as "nominal"
08:21:13 <Oranjer> no thoughts on that? sorry, mates
08:21:29 <madbr> it had [nominal,verbal,pronominal,participle,modal,another one i can't remember] x [substantive,adjective]
08:21:35 <augur> theyre aled words.
08:22:02 <augur> calling something a substantive only makes sense if substantive actually means something
08:22:25 <Oranjer> you define what "substantive" means by those things you use that word to describe, eh?
08:22:46 <madbr> augur: yeah, in that particular case it was something like "the word has a base meaning instead of just deriving another word's meaning"
08:23:02 <augur> theres a word for that already too.
08:23:03 <Oranjer> augur, do you...actually create anything?
08:23:09 <augur> its called a root.
08:23:12 <augur> yes, oranjer, i do.
08:23:32 <madbr> augur: I said it the wrong way around
08:23:57 <madbr> "red" is a root but in that particular system it would be an "adjective", not "substantive"
08:25:10 <madbr> I think the distinction was that a "substantive" referred to at least a base set of concepts, while an "adjective" doesn't have a base set and is more subtractive in nature
08:26:40 <madbr> anyways, the generativist "let's make trees" class was easier :D
08:26:45 <Oranjer> also, madbr, what if we added "quasimodal" to that permutation you described earlier?
08:26:57 <madbr> what would that be
08:27:17 <Oranjer> I know what quasimodal means, of course
08:27:52 <ehird> i love hci let's talk about some more hci also operating systems since i like operating systems well not current operating systems but
08:27:57 <madbr> i think the real problem was something more like "its the teacher's own system" or something like that
08:27:59 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_%28computer_interface%29#Quasimodes
08:28:06 <ehird> i should probably eat to sustain me until i decide i should bed myself
08:28:18 <Oranjer> ewww ehird's gonna bed himself
08:28:42 <ehird> anyway the problem with quasimodes is hand fatigue.
08:28:43 <augur> it sounds like you were doing morphology
08:28:59 <Oranjer> yeah, that's a problem, ehird
08:29:18 <ehird> in fact, modifier keys are pretty much broken
08:29:23 <Oranjer> I thought of a solution, though
08:29:31 <augur> ehird, i like modifier keys :|
08:29:32 <ehird> Ctrl+x isn't more than a millisecond faster than Ctrl, x
08:29:42 <ehird> and your hand will like you for more years with the latter
08:29:43 <Oranjer> hah, augur, we agree on something!
08:29:48 <ehird> not the concept of modifier keys, they are fine
08:29:50 <ehird> i mean the way you execute it
08:29:55 <ehird> by holding it down and hitting another key
08:29:58 <ehird> that's broken, ergonomically
08:30:03 <augur> except ehird, what about sequences?
08:30:06 <Oranjer> I found a possible solution
08:30:15 <ehird> it may be obvious, but we need to think of something just as good that doesn't wreck our hands
08:30:20 <augur> also, how is it ergonomically broken
08:30:22 <Oranjer> meh, sequences might introduce modal errors
08:30:24 <augur> use the right command key, fool.
08:30:27 <ehird> i'd explain, but i cba to explain
08:30:39 <ehird> anyway sequences are easy
08:30:47 <augur> thats why theres two sets
08:30:48 <ehird> ctrl, alt, x is perfectly unambiguous
08:31:00 <ehird> you're showing your lack of ergonomic knowledge
08:31:03 <augur> thank you for agreeing that you're wrong
08:31:11 <ehird> admittedly i don't have much, but more than you
08:31:14 <Oranjer> sequences would only work if it is completely unambiguous where you are in the sequence
08:31:21 <augur> also, ive been using a computer longer than you and ive never had issues with the ergonomics of command keys
08:31:27 <augur> ive never heard anyone else complain
08:31:30 <augur> you're full of shit
08:31:35 <augur> but then, you're only 14
08:31:40 <augur> its to be expected!
08:31:43 <ehird> i'm sorry augur, can i repeat your argument
08:31:47 <Oranjer> now now, calling names and yelling "Ignorant fool! your children will be cursed with Gay!" at each other!
08:32:01 <Oranjer> *is no way to have an argument!
08:32:02 <augur> oranjer, you're new to #esoteric
08:32:05 <ehird> "I have personally used computers for some more years than you, and I have not yet had hand problems, therefore all of currently-accepted ergonomics is wrong"
08:32:17 <augur> this is how we do things here in esoland
08:32:35 <augur> ehird and i are actually boyfriends, he's sitting a few feet from me.
08:32:40 <augur> its all part of the fun of being on irc
08:32:41 <ehird> "get the fuck out, shut the fuck up, die in a fire, kay thanks bye"; it's basically my way of saying QED
08:32:44 <ehird> also, augur is a liar.
08:32:45 <madbr> well, alt,f4 is a bit more dangerous than alt+f4 :D
08:32:57 <augur> i am but what does he know?
08:33:11 <ehird> long-term what we need is direct-brain interfaces — erm, backtrack —
08:33:14 <Oranjer> are we gonna start suggesting solutions?
08:33:17 <ehird> long-term what we need is to get rid of input and output devices
08:33:21 <ehird> and have them be the same thing
08:33:30 <ehird> but unless you want to give up on haptic feedback, at the moment, you can't do that
08:33:35 <augur> i agree tho that command keys could probably be done like that ehird.
08:33:41 <madbr> interface problems? hmmm
08:33:41 <ehird> we have to make do with the reality of i/o separation
08:33:49 <ehird> augur: in fact you can enable stickykeys in windows to get this
08:33:54 <ehird> the founder of emacswiki does it
08:33:59 <ehird> Oranjer: what was that dammit yes to?
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08:34:22 <Oranjer> it just seems that we're doing this wrongly
08:34:24 <augur> sticky keys never seemed to work right for me
08:34:31 <augur> i was on ME when i tried it
08:34:34 <ehird> yeah, well, that's windowsfor you
08:34:42 <ehird> fuck this keyboard
08:35:03 <madbr> keyboards are fast but they require memorizing
08:35:09 <ehird> madbr: ah, but not inherently
08:35:15 <Oranjer> changed to what it would actually do when pressed
08:35:18 <madbr> mouses are slow but they don't require as much memorization
08:35:21 <ehird> but not a command-based (or "linguistic") interface
08:35:23 <ehird> that's less efficient, though
08:35:28 <ehird> stop generalisiing
08:35:33 <ehird> what you are saying is keybinding vs WIMP
08:35:35 <ehird> not keyboard vs mouse
08:35:39 <ehird> neither r are desirable
08:35:43 <ehird> *drop that whole r word
08:35:49 <Oranjer> like, when I press "control", the "X" key changes to display "cut"
08:35:54 <augur> mouses are known to be in no way significantly faster overall. research has already established this.
08:35:56 <madbr> dunno, I like keyboards
08:35:59 <ehird> Oranjer: touch-type, man
08:36:05 <ehird> madbr: keyboard != keybinding
08:36:11 <augur> significantly slower**
08:36:19 <FireFly> [09:35:15] <Oranjer> changed to what it would actually do when pressed
08:36:23 <madbr> well, how are you going to use a keyboard without keybinding?
08:36:26 <ehird> augur: true but also untrue
08:36:27 <FireFly> A bit too expensive for me
08:36:28 <augur> infact they're faster over all. they just /seem/ slower because the cognitive load is lower.
08:36:38 <augur> only your cock will shut me up
08:36:45 <ehird> what you are saying is
08:36:48 <augur> btw, have you seen moon?
08:36:55 <ehird> "WIMP-style mouse interfaces" are faster than "keybindings to WIMP menu items"
08:37:00 <Oranjer> I will now go outside and look at it
08:37:08 <ehird> but overall, a keyboard can be faster FOR THE THINGS IT EXCELS at, if given a system designed for it:
08:37:12 <ehird> a linguistic, or command interface
08:37:13 <Oranjer> they allow for both beginners and experts!
08:37:20 <ehird> by automating tasks, it can be significantly faster than a mouse
08:37:22 <ehird> what you say is true
08:37:31 <ehird> it is useless for designing future UIs
08:37:36 <ehird> and misleading to say the least
08:37:51 <augur> moon is an ... interesting movie
08:38:00 <augur> ehird, yes, well ofcourse
08:38:01 <Oranjer> I still wanna see the moon, though
08:38:09 <madbr> well, what magic solution are you going to come up to deal with the fact that you need a way to access each command, eh?
08:38:17 <augur> its faster for a keyboard interface
08:38:24 <augur> its all in context
08:38:44 <augur> tho arguably a sufficiently complex CLI will probably still be slower for the same tasks
08:38:55 <ehird> augur: are you suggesting that a fully expressive, well-designed command/linguistic interface (therefore supporting automation) would be slower than slogging through repetitive grunt-and-clicks?
08:39:04 <augur> tho i suppose it would depend on the full keyboard arrangement you could construct
08:39:13 <ehird> because, really, the only way i can make that true in my head is by assuming either a really retarded command/linguistic interface or a magical mouse (HEY APPLE)
08:39:17 <ehird> i don't mean like unix cli
08:39:29 <ehird> text is limited, and the unix cli syntax is untenable for really quick activation
08:39:39 <augur> well everyone i know who argues about this shit is CLI-whoring
08:39:42 <ehird> i'm thinking of a completion system, where you can have keybindings and then type on to disambiguate
08:39:49 <ehird> with rich objects that know what they can do
08:39:52 <ehird> and can order by the most common item
08:40:06 <ehird> that's a linguistic interface, not a dumb text-command-to-text-output-with-text-streams-oh-joy unix crapfest
08:40:13 <Oranjer> what's CLI? also, it's the wrong time to see the moon here
08:40:15 <augur> so who wants to learn about semantics? :X
08:40:20 <augur> command-line interface
08:40:22 <ehird> Oranjer: command-line interface
08:40:26 <augur> oranjer, not THE moon
08:40:34 <ehird> augur: that thing you said that would be useful for a quicksilver thing, you should talk to me about that sometime; i'd actually listen for once
08:40:36 <Oranjer> but I wanted to see the moon anyway
08:40:54 <ehird> augur: eh you mentioned it
08:40:57 <augur> the agent program?
08:41:17 <augur> i was actually about to ask you if you wanted to work on something like that but decided you would probably not want to
08:41:49 <ehird> i think for it to know the inner workings of programs would probably require my OSs detached objects, instead of programs, so I'm totally for co-opting that
08:41:52 <ehird> of course, that's rather long-term...
08:42:02 <ehird> working on it for an existing OS could be fun though.
08:42:17 <augur> well, the hooks into the OS would be something like what you can do with QS and automator right now
08:42:22 <ehird> i don't think any of them provide the sort of toes-curled-up-in-soil deep inspection that'd be needed
08:42:27 <augur> the scripting hooks that already exist
08:42:31 <ehird> augur: right, but they don't go very deep, really
08:42:45 <ehird> I mean, I can't accomplish much of what i want to do with quicksilver at all
08:42:46 <augur> but we'll do what we can with what we've got
08:42:53 <augur> what do you want to do
08:43:01 <madbr> what are you even talking about
08:43:03 <ehird> co-opt the ideas into my OS, naturally.
08:43:20 <Oranjer> that's what they're talking about, madbr
08:43:22 <ehird> it's, amusingly, almost perfectly designed for the kind of hooks that'd be required
08:43:24 <augur> in what sense, ehird
08:43:41 <ehird> take your shit and apply it to my OS interface research
08:43:47 <ehird> not... your literal shit
08:44:05 <ehird> in fact, the focus on objects and the abolishment of programs, I think, is helpful
08:44:07 <augur> so have an OS that is, from the core up, built with that sort of exposure in mind
08:44:10 <ehird> nobody thinks in programs or talks about progarms
08:44:22 <ehird> they think about things, combining things, making them act with other things
08:44:26 <madbr> abolishment of programs?
08:44:28 <augur> so you want to do data-oriented OS design
08:44:32 <augur> rather than program-oriented?
08:44:35 <ehird> Oranjer: when on a computer, yes, because it's co-opted you to its evil
08:44:37 <Oranjer> YES abolishment of programs!
08:44:51 <Oranjer> wait, Jef Raskin made a good article on this, madbr
08:44:51 <augur> where data is primary, and you just have external services that hook into it on the fly and do whatever you need to do
08:44:58 <ehird> Rich, smart data with multiple interfaces! Viva la somethingution.
08:45:03 <ehird> augur: Yes yes yes yes yes
08:45:07 <madbr> abolishment of programs sounds like a rather radical agenda
08:45:13 <augur> ive been looking for someone to work with on this kind of thing for like
08:45:14 <ehird> madbr: My OS is rather radical...
08:45:28 <ehird> madbr: For a start it also does away with C!
08:45:30 <Oranjer> hey, augur, we all agree programs are bad
08:45:41 <Oranjer> http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1.06/1.6_guis.html
08:45:44 <augur> shut up oranjer the grown ups are talking
08:46:03 <madbr> well, the other kind of separation of code I know of is plug-ins
08:46:16 <augur> so ehird, i want to do this
08:46:37 <ehird> madbr: stop thinking in code
08:46:40 <ehird> think about the data, the documents
08:46:46 <ehird> and them knowing the code
08:46:50 <ehird> haha i'm lolling at that jef raskin article
08:46:59 <ehird> "you know that mac thing i designed? desktop icons pointy clicky menus?"
08:47:00 <madbr> ok, suppose I have a song
08:47:01 <augur> ehird, i think that like
08:47:08 <ehird> madbr: most vague statement ever
08:47:16 <augur> haskell-like data orientation is kind of the programming equivalent of this idea
08:47:26 <ehird> madbr: shush the grownups are talking
08:47:31 <ehird> EVERYTHING WILL BECOME CLEAR!
08:47:36 <augur> and that might be a good programming environment for that sort of task too
08:47:44 <ehird> augur: i'm of a slightly more object-oriented persuation
08:47:54 <ehird> the original smalltalk is still, in my opinion, unsurpassed as an OS.
08:48:13 <augur> i would like to see something thats smalltalky
08:48:15 <augur> but at the same time
08:48:22 <augur> has the symmetry of data-oriented programming
08:48:30 <ehird> i think the project demands a new language anyway
08:48:38 <ehird> it's a clean slate, and it's very different to the usual crop
08:48:46 <ehird> and there'll be scarce compatibility anyway
08:48:55 <ehird> so why not make something tailored
08:49:03 <augur> we can always compile to C
08:49:08 <ehird> non nonono nonononono
08:49:19 <ehird> i have very strong opinions on this and lots of thought processes :P
08:49:26 <augur> we could compile to zimbu!
08:49:33 <ehird> let's compile ... to lojban
08:49:39 <ehird> duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude
08:49:45 <ehird> whooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaa
08:50:04 <ehird> http://www.zimbu.org/
08:50:05 <ehird> what the hell is this shit
08:50:07 <augur> but then all the lojbanists will be perfectly suited to run it
08:50:12 <augur> its horrible is what it is ehird
08:50:14 <ehird> an interpreted language isn't suitable to write a text editor? lol
08:50:18 <ehird> what a bunch of bullshit
08:51:37 <ehird> i'd love to design the hardware from scratch too to remove all the bloat and crap and bullshit that i'll have to deal with on the x86, but that's just not practical
08:52:06 <ehird> hardware design is really not my thing
08:52:11 <madbr> evict all the integers and make it floating point-based
08:52:15 <ehird> and it raises the barrier to entry oh so much
08:52:23 <madbr> then make it compile to FPU stack code
08:52:30 <ehird> instead of downloading some free software and booting to it, you have to buy some $500 pile of hardware and flash it all
08:53:04 <madbr> beagle board could be a choice no?
08:55:02 <madbr> it's a world of vlsi integration and systems on a chip
08:55:46 <Oranjer> also, ehird, can't you eventually replace pie menus with eye movement during a quasimode?
08:56:14 <madbr> but yeah you could evict integers from your design... floating point is longer to calculate with but these days chips have so many transistors that it's not the bottleneck anymore
08:56:18 <ehird> controlling eye movement isn't very natural or easy
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08:57:25 <madbr> that's why some languages only have floating point (lua, javascript...)
08:58:08 <ehird> floating point is shit
08:58:18 <ehird> it's not useful for aaaaaaaaaanythign
08:58:46 <madbr> floating point is THE shit
08:59:24 <Oranjer> what I've seen of it is a gain in effectiveness and a loss in efficiency
09:00:23 <madbr> well, sound processing switched to floating point because sound processing uses lots of multiplications, and on the original pentium floating point multiplication was afaik faster than integer multiplication even
09:01:29 <madbr> a couple of old plugin interfaces started using float and it stuck
09:02:16 <madbr> but it's extremely useful because you don't have to build headroom into anything anymore
09:02:57 <Oranjer> Fungot, what do you think?
09:03:08 <fungot> Oranjer: you recall that pickman's fnord was faces. i don't wish to offend you, and haue longe fnord upon ye way of get'g backe after ye laste. i laste night fnord on ye n. side of olney's court. distance from boston stone fnord. fnord fnord and from the titanic flat roof, with its curious illustrations by the brothers de fnord, composed in fnord but after a hypodermic injection it became more regular.
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09:03:56 <Oranjer> geez you bot that's a lot of fnords what are you saying this is supposed to be depressing? geez
09:05:12 <madbr> english has sufficient mechanisms to deal with different degrees of evidentiality
09:05:29 <Oranjer> bah! they're hardly mandatory
09:06:06 <madbr> that's because you don't always need to express evidentiality
09:06:19 <madbr> sometimes it's totally besides point
09:06:21 <Oranjer> I would say that you would, to avoid conflict
09:06:30 <Oranjer> yeah, yeah, artistic license
09:06:52 <madbr> well, why do you think people say "afaik" and "i think" all the time? :D
09:07:14 <madbr> there was even someone lamenting the use of that kind of stuff by politicians
09:07:19 <Oranjer> but that's only to express explicit uncertainty
09:07:35 <Oranjer> make all legal documents in e-prime!
09:07:55 <Oranjer> and make politicians use it! yaaaay!
09:08:51 <madbr> that's because less uncertainty is the default
09:09:36 <Oranjer> I still say I've seen it prevent apparent conflicts
09:09:46 <madbr> plus, you're missing how useful and expressive "to be" is in english
09:10:03 <Oranjer> I only mean when we use it as a stative
09:10:25 <ehird> to be or not to be
09:10:27 <ehird> how do you say that in e-prime
09:10:37 <Oranjer> as I said before, artistic license
09:10:49 <Oranjer> also, other e-prime people have already done that
09:11:07 <Oranjer> but then, they merely removed the use of "to be"
09:11:19 <madbr> well, the grass is green
09:11:21 <Oranjer> I prefer focusing on removing statives
09:11:40 <Oranjer> oh? what does this green grass do? where'd you find it?
09:12:10 <madbr> it doesn't do anything
09:12:25 <Oranjer> "God exists!" "God doesn't exist!" *FIGHT* vs. "God exists, and I think that because..." "Well, I disagree on..." *NOT FIGHT*
09:12:46 <madbr> ....................................................................no
09:13:49 <madbr> like, how else would you express something like that
09:14:08 <Oranjer> how else would I express what?
09:14:10 <madbr> the grass is green
09:14:26 <Oranjer> quite simply, what information does that contain?
09:14:35 <madbr> the color of the grass
09:14:43 <Oranjer> exactly--the color according to who?
09:14:57 <Oranjer> "The grass appears green to me"
09:15:06 <augur> oh god are you kids talking about e-prime
09:15:23 <madbr> oranjer: there's no point to that
09:15:25 <augur> the whole purpose of eprime is noble, but misguided
09:15:37 <augur> also, removing "be" is a failure to achieve this goal.
09:15:45 <Oranjer> augur! I just talked about that!
09:15:53 <Oranjer> I only wish to remove stative verbs
09:15:54 <madbr> oranjer: plus you still have an attribute, except it's implicit
09:16:14 <augur> stative verbs arent the issue either
09:16:28 <Oranjer> what would you define the issue as, then, augur?
09:16:39 <Oranjer> ambiguity itself, I would guess?
09:16:39 <madbr> like, you could wrap any sentence that way
09:16:55 <Oranjer> true, madbr, but I would hardly call that creative
09:17:06 <augur> the fact that languages as a whole permit things like indicative mood, realis modality, and non-evidentiality
09:17:10 <madbr> "bob eats pork" -> "bob appears eating pork to me"
09:17:17 <augur> you could always just promote using quechua.
09:17:38 <Oranjer> I find "bob eats pork" none-too-distasteful
09:18:03 <augur> quechua has evidentiality
09:18:07 <madbr> like, why is that ok but "the grass is green" not
09:18:11 <augur> mandatory evidentiality, if i recall correctly
09:18:24 <Oranjer> yeah, augur, I want mandatory evidentiality
09:18:38 <augur> it'll vanish in time due to natural changes in the language.
09:19:07 <Oranjer> I would hardly say such vanishing would help the sciences and arts
09:19:12 <augur> USING the RIGHT evidentiality marker is a choice people make
09:19:41 <augur> sometimes its necessary to say things are just this way, that its fact
09:19:50 <augur> ie in the sciences, vs. religion
09:20:03 <augur> and sometimes its necessary to lie
09:20:16 <augur> language is the way it is
09:20:32 <augur> trying to make a particular language better is a failure of understanding of what language does in the first place
09:21:05 <Oranjer> hahahahahahahHAhaahaahAHAHahAHAhA
09:21:32 <augur> and a failure to understand how languages work in reality
09:21:34 <Oranjer> It seems to me augur you just attempted to use the argument of the masses on me
09:22:03 <augur> the argument of the masses?
09:22:09 <madbr> oranjer: you just don't get how efficient a language like english is
09:22:30 <madbr> and how hard it is to beat something like english at being expressive
09:22:34 <Oranjer> effectiveness in dealing with the unknown
09:22:44 <augur> language isnt designed to deal with the unknown
09:22:49 <augur> and e-prime isnt either
09:22:56 <augur> (by language, i mean the human language faculty)
09:23:24 <Oranjer> then we should create a means of communication that expressly takes the unknown into consideration! yaaaaaaaay!
09:23:30 <madbr> oranjer: then perhaps you could try your hand at adding evidentiality to english
09:23:44 <augur> to do that you'd need to modify the brain.
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09:24:14 <augur> if your brain does not already incorporate a mechanisms for doing this sort of thing, other than language, you cant do it
09:24:22 <augur> and language is the only thing anyone knows of that does this
09:24:30 <augur> if something else existed, we'd be using it already
09:24:58 <madbr> well, language does suffer from bandwidth limitations
09:25:17 <augur> i can talk faster than i can type.
09:25:24 <augur> on the other hand, i can edit what i type before i talk
09:25:29 <augur> before i send* rather
09:25:33 <madbr> about 50 bits per second I think
09:25:54 <augur> depends on what you mean by that
09:26:07 <madbr> that's how much bandwidth I think language tends to have
09:26:31 <madbr> probably up to 100 bits if you go really fast but I mean it as an order of magnitude
09:26:41 <augur> probably less, actually
09:27:08 <ehird> My giraffe fucked the horse's bright pink wound scabbing up with green oil.
09:27:10 <augur> the way languages are structured, the phonological information is the important stuff
09:27:12 <ehird> how many bits is thaat?
09:27:15 <augur> and phonologies are entirely language internal
09:27:22 <madbr> well, if you condider that a normal syllable rate for something like english or french is something like 6 syllables / second
09:27:24 <ehird> (also, wow that sentence is disturbing)
09:27:27 <ehird> i never even... notcied
09:27:40 <augur> so you only have to count the phonological content being shuttled around
09:27:47 <augur> which might be less than 50 bits per second
09:27:53 <madbr> and from the size of the phonetic inventories of such languages you get something like 8 bits/syllable
09:28:02 <Oranjer> ehird, that reminds me of a scene in David Cronenberg's "Crash"
09:28:05 <augur> you get more than 8 bits per syllable
09:28:09 <ehird> BUT HOW MANY BITS IS IT
09:28:49 <madbr> augur: well, for a CVC syllable, sure
09:28:49 <augur> english has around 40 sounds, with syllables upwards of 5 sounds each
09:28:49 <augur> but again this depends on how you count your dat
09:28:51 <Oranjer> why can't the short version of "vowel" itself be a vowel? like, a?
09:28:51 <madbr> but more complex syllables have a speed hit
09:29:07 <madbr> it's something like 1.5x slower for CVC vs CV in French
09:29:24 <madbr> english is timed differently but it probably comes down to something similar
09:29:26 <Oranjer> anyway, I must go to sleep now
09:29:38 <augur> you'd have to do a proper study dude
09:29:40 <Oranjer> thanks for the...topic talking? :O
09:29:41 <augur> and i dont have one
09:29:52 <madbr> well, french is a bit easier to count
09:29:58 <Oranjer> :( good night! (night for me) )
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09:30:09 <madbr> ~20 consonants, ~16 vowels
09:30:48 <madbr> of course the frequencies are skewed, but if you compute the bit contents of skewed inventories they don't actually lose much information
09:31:28 <madbr> so that means you get around a byte of info per syllable, give or take 2 bits probably
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09:32:13 <madbr> although something else I've read talked about 1 bit per letter
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11:50:07 <ehird> using an operating system through a text-to-speech thingy is hard
11:50:07 <ehird> for blinders people
11:55:29 <ehird> vertica vertica vertical line
11:59:44 <ehird> oklopol: say something
12:00:27 <oklopol> should i!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
12:00:44 <ehird> colloquy fails beautifully at telling the speech user about shit that happens!
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12:16:59 <ehird> it'd be interesting to be blind
12:17:06 <ehird> but from the computer aspect
12:17:56 <oerjan> clearly SCIENCE requires you to stab out your eyes
12:19:52 <oklopol> lament: you look pretty today
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12:22:25 <ehird> oklopol: blindfold yourself and enable all the speech and keyboard control things
12:22:57 <oerjan> _maybe_ in the other order might be preferred
12:24:32 <ehird> if i was a blind dude i'd have all sorts of awesome shorthand just for representing everything
12:25:03 <ehird> "(spoken very quickly)blab esoteric oklopol"
12:25:06 <ehird> key to say "tell me tell me"
12:25:16 <ehird> "lament: you look pretty today. 1 minute ago."
12:25:22 <ehird> "switch to window"
12:25:29 <ehird> mainly the blab thing
12:25:32 <ehird> it'd be like, sitting there
12:25:47 <ehird> blab esoteric oklopol mail inbox compile done
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13:45:18 <ehird> nobody in particular
13:46:04 <ehird> applescript://com.apple.scripteditor?action=new&script=say%20%22hi%22
13:46:08 <ehird> i swear this actually works
13:48:17 <ehird> there seems to be no way to get it to run on click though :P
13:48:49 <ais523> I don't think this computer understands that protocol
13:50:07 <ehird> ais523: i'm shocked
13:51:39 <ehird> ais523: Clearly you must be running some weird-ass OS, like, like, HURD!
13:52:08 <ehird> (It is 2013. Apple announce their porting of OS X to a modified HURD kernel) Oh god I regret everything I have said ever
13:52:17 <ais523> even VxWorks doesn't recognise that protocol
13:52:26 <ais523> so why would you expect less mainstream OSes to?
13:53:37 <ehird> ais523: Not even Emacs supports it!
13:53:48 <ehird> HURD, VxWorks and Emacs: the three main operating systems.
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14:13:54 * ehird does something very stupid
14:16:03 * ehird doesn't actually do it due to stupidity
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15:03:32 <ehird> i need to work on Ponzi Scheme sometime before someone else takes that name :(
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15:35:55 <ehird> sure is slow lately
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16:10:39 <AnMaster> hm how fast does n! grow? Faster than a^n ?
16:16:28 <ais523> that grows about as fast as (n+1)^n
16:16:37 <ais523> just with a horizontal offset
16:16:42 <ais523> so that'll go faster than n! too
16:17:08 <AnMaster> how comes it grows about as fast as (n+1)^n?
16:19:31 * AnMaster just cleaned his keyboard. Eww
16:32:19 <ehird> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=472271
16:32:43 <ais523> AnMaster: just substitute n-1 for n
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16:46:45 <AnMaster> should still be less than n^n right?
16:47:15 <ais523> that's just multiplying by 2
16:47:35 <ais523> things like adding/subtracting one from n, and multiplying by /any/ constant, don't affect behaviour in the limit
16:50:05 <ehird> thus why i linked it
16:51:04 <fax> so O gives equivalence classes ordered?
16:51:14 <fax> O(n!) < O(n^n)
16:51:28 <fax> can you these O's as numbers
16:51:50 <fizzie> Oh, ehird might be interested to know that YLE (our BBC) had a theremin for the public to play with on their altparty stand.
16:53:17 <fizzie> It was hooked to an oscilloscope, theoretically to make it easier to see amplitudes and frequencies.
16:54:00 <fizzie> Didn't see anyone who could actually play the thing though.
16:54:57 <AnMaster> fax, was that a question or a statement?
16:55:19 <fax> what does that tell us?
16:55:20 <AnMaster> fax, "<fax> can you these O's as numbers" didn't parse here
16:55:51 <AnMaster> or "these" should have been something else
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17:15:24 <ehird> oh god when did uriel become a proggit mod
17:16:03 <Deewiant> Probably just recently, when spez asked for new mods.
17:19:23 <ehird> well, uriel is quite seriously insane...
17:19:28 <ehird> but no, not a big deal
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17:22:30 <ehird> AnMaster: a libertarian free-market capitalist plan 9 highly acidic moron who lives in sweden
17:22:47 <ehird> his website is among the few known to cause actual mental illness merely by reading text
17:23:07 <ehird> cat-v.org may ring a bell.
17:24:44 <ehird> "If elected moderator, I will edit LISP postings by randomly removing left and right parens"
17:24:52 <ehird> now here's a man with initiative!
17:25:54 <AnMaster> ehird, hasn't he been in here? Or was that someone else
17:26:33 <AnMaster> ehird, someone with a ready-made image for plan9?
17:26:44 <ehird> mycroftiv/nescience.
17:26:56 <AnMaster> ehird, his web site design was quite similar iirc
17:26:58 <ehird> nescience/myndzi is different
17:27:25 <ehird> AnMaster: it's the default werc style (plan 9 style website system used for suckless.org, maintained byy uriel)
17:28:10 <AnMaster> suckless.org looks different though
17:28:44 <AnMaster> ehird, it is a nice web site design anyway. And a nice colour scheme
17:28:50 <ehird> yes, suckless use their own style
17:29:12 <ehird> the orange colour is displeasing
17:29:25 <AnMaster> ehird, it differs on sub-pages
17:29:28 <ehird> everything below the header is too minimalist to have really had any design put into it
17:29:48 <ehird> that's just plan 9's colour scheme, changed sliughtly
17:29:50 <AnMaster> <ehird> everything below the header is too minimalist to have really had any design put into it <-- yeah that is the so great thing about it
17:29:52 <ehird> 9times uses it unchanged
17:30:02 <ehird> AnMaster: not really, the line length is too long
17:30:15 <AnMaster> ehird, too wide browser window?
17:30:26 <ehird> yep, now every other site has a horizontal scrollbar
17:30:39 <AnMaster> ehird, at least it doesn't try to be *wider* than your browser. Ever
17:30:55 <ehird> my safari window disagrees.
17:31:01 <ehird> i have a horiz. scrollbar on a cat-v page
17:31:02 <AnMaster> if you go smaller than the menu
17:31:10 <ehird> admittedly it contains a large image
17:33:40 <AnMaster> maybe I should join #plan9. Or maybe not
17:35:37 <ehird> they're not the most helpful bunch.
17:41:04 <ehird> hooray for possible progress on my os.
17:42:16 <ehird> augur involvement.
17:42:37 <ehird> not that anything's been done, but a few ideas have been batted and that's better than it's been for, like, monhts
17:42:54 <ehird> [said in T-Rex voice] LINGUISTICS IS STRANGELY APPLICABLE
17:44:31 <ehird> Some interesting stuff for the primary (at least until I think of something better) interaction quantum, the linguistic super-mini-CLI.
17:44:41 <ehird> Which is hard to explain but so trivially easy as to seem boring, hey ho.
17:45:06 <ehird> (A CLI that is both super and mini, that is.)
17:45:19 <ehird> Also it's not really too much like a CLI.
17:46:12 <ehird> Also: Apple are trying to de-emphasise the bezel around the display on the iMac! I predict that eventually, the entire front of the iMac will be a display with rounded corners.
17:46:24 <ehird> That would be some engineering feat, also awesome.
17:46:45 <ehird> (The pixels would go right up to the edge, presumably involving fractions of pixels.)
17:48:01 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean, no border around the screen at all?
17:48:29 <ehird> Obviously the software expects a square display, but you're only losing like a few pixels at the corners that can just be ignored.
17:48:40 <ehird> AnMaster: It'd be covered with glass like current iMacs, presumably.
17:48:56 <ehird> Because they're ugly, and the iMac has always had rounded corners.
17:49:01 <ehird> I'm just extrapolating from the current design.
17:49:02 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, you need a bit of glass on the sides too, could be very thin
17:49:03 <ehird> Plus it'd be purty.
17:49:19 <ehird> The main engineering feat would be the pixels on the corner that get cut off.
17:49:27 <ehird> You'd have to make non-square pixels.
17:49:34 <ehird> Of quite a few variations in shape.
17:49:53 <ehird> The end effect would be sweet, though.
17:50:03 <ehird> Caveat: No place to put camera, microphone, big Apple logo.
17:50:29 <ehird> Well... you could embed the camera and microphone inside the glass somehow, and make them invisible... somehow...
17:50:29 <AnMaster> ehird, hm using the bottom pixles?
17:50:42 <ehird> AnMaster: But that ruins the effect. :P
17:50:51 <ehird> Although it'd be amusing to display a bezel in the showroom... run some demos....
17:50:53 <AnMaster> redeign it so part of it is in front
17:50:59 <ehird> it fades into more desktop
17:51:15 <ehird> The logo thing was facetious; Apple design is obvious enough to not need a logo.
17:51:24 <ehird> But the camera and microphone would present a real problem.
17:51:43 <ehird> (All peanuts compared to the whole myriad-shapes-of-pixels-at-the-corners, of course.)
17:51:45 <AnMaster> ehird, the camera yes. The mic less so
17:52:08 <ehird> The mic is easy enough with some clever tilting of the top or bottom part, I guess.
17:52:14 <ehird> But the camera really needs to be on the front.
17:52:31 * AnMaster invokes treknobabel to make it work
17:53:28 <ehird> It's Treknobabble, then.
17:54:13 <ehird> And a transposed le.
17:54:17 <ehird> Anyway, the camera... hmm...
17:55:20 <AnMaster> ehird, as I said. Redesign the foot
17:55:27 <AnMaster> so there is part of it near the front
17:55:35 <ehird> It's at the top of the display.
17:55:55 <AnMaster> ehird, what about some cleaver algorithms to move the thing?
17:56:08 <ehird> You could set up a fancy mirror thing with a camera on the top above the screen, but it'd be non-flat.
17:56:53 <AnMaster> ehird, you know a mic and a speaker can be replaced kind of?
17:57:04 <AnMaster> as in, they work the same basically
17:57:26 <AnMaster> ehird, now design pixels that can be used backwards as a camera
17:57:52 <AnMaster> problem solved. When camera is needed, some 32x32 pixles at the top are used
17:57:56 <ehird> One issue with this design is, where the hell do you go from there? The whole thing the user sees in front, with the perfect curve, leading to thin, black glass on the sides, top and bottom, and then anodised aluminium with a few ports in one corner, the name of the computer, and a hole for the power cord. All suspended on a foot made out of the same material on the back that's literally just an elaborate curve, the simplest possible stand, with a hole to
17:57:57 <ehird> power curve through.
17:58:13 <ehird> "Apple releases revolutionary new iMac design; it's exactly the same but .3 inches thinner"
17:58:27 <ehird> now I'll read everything you said while I wrote that
17:58:57 <ehird> Also, actually, you could embed the camera behind the display, somehow.
17:59:03 <ehird> With very cleverly constructed LCDs...
17:59:07 <AnMaster> anyway since by then we will have 1000 dpi, some 60x60 pixles wouldn't be a problem
17:59:11 <ehird> But the quality would be poor if it's even possible.
18:00:17 <AnMaster> "the simplest possible stand, with a hole to
18:00:47 <AnMaster> ehird, was something dropped there?
18:02:44 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, what about my idea about double function pixels?
18:03:02 <ehird> [17:58] ehird: Also, actually, you could embed the camera behind the display, somehow.
18:03:02 <ehird> [17:59] ehird: With very cleverly constructed LCDs...
18:03:05 <ehird> was in response to that.
18:03:10 <ehird> i don't know if it's possible
18:05:02 <ehird> Not happening, not cool, not interesting engineering, not profitable.
18:12:49 <ehird> AnMaster: LITTLE DID YOU KNOW I WORK AT APPLE'S DESIGN DIVISION
18:12:54 <ehird> Thx for the assistance!
18:13:05 <ehird> TIME TO GO COLLECT MY HUGE PILE OF MONEY
18:13:53 <ehird> "I use a filesystem I wrote for MacFUSE for resizing images. If an image is located at /path/to/image.png then I can get a version resized to fit in 1024x768 with /transform/maxwidth-1024-maxheight-768/path/to/image.png. I was going to add other transformations but never got around to it, so all I can do right now is resize, either to fixed sizes or constraints."
18:15:24 <ais523> this is the future of OSes!
18:15:29 <ais523> clearly, you don't run filter programs
18:15:32 <ais523> you just use custom paths
18:15:58 <oklopol> /for/each/i/in/path/to/images/resize/to/x/y
18:15:59 <Deewiant> ehird: Easier to get at from GUI programs.
18:16:14 <oklopol> wait maybe i should've used the i.
18:16:22 <ais523> /dev/env in DJGPP was surprisingly useful
18:16:41 <oklopol> anyway you could have a programming language integrated in your file system, reading a path executes a script
18:16:51 <oklopol> would be the natural extension to what you pasted there
18:18:40 <ehird> but how do you nest!!!!!!
18:19:54 <Asztal> with twigs and leaves and things
18:20:38 <ehird> so, who wants to play...
18:20:38 <ehird> THE TINY LINUX KERNEL GAME
18:20:56 <ehird> the game is that you have to make the tiniest linux kernel that'll boot and run on some given hardware usefully. VMs count
18:22:35 <ais523> ehird: how do you define "linux" here?
18:22:56 <ehird> kernel.org, any version! although if it doesn't have enough menuconfig to tinker with it's no fun
18:23:13 <ehird> base system doesn't matter, just steal some shit from debian for the kernel to jump into
18:23:59 <AnMaster> <ais523> /dev/env in DJGPP was surprisingly useful <-- eh
18:24:32 <ais523> AnMaster: /dev/env/NETHACKDIR/perm is equivalent to $NETHACKDIR/perm, but works everywhere, not just shells
18:25:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I would use a simple busybox
18:25:12 <ehird> kernel size is all that counts
18:25:37 <ehird> if it boots something you can poke around w/ a shell and grep and shit
18:25:49 <ehird> AnMaster: i think it should be only current kernel tbh
18:25:53 <ehird> since it's more bloaty
18:26:18 <ehird> 8 KiB should be trivial, 4 KiB possible
18:26:21 <ehird> anything below, more difficult
18:26:23 <AnMaster> 2.4 is still maintained though
18:26:28 <ehird> sub 2 KiB, haaaaaaard
18:26:30 <ehird> AnMaster: but less bloaty.
18:27:05 <AnMaster> about 2 MB is what I managed for x86_64 for something that is usable for me on my main desktop
18:27:34 <Deewiant> Mine is 2.6 MB without module support
18:27:35 <ehird> someone posted on reddit that he uses a ~8 KiB kernel
18:27:39 <ehird> because shrinking it is fun
18:27:40 <AnMaster> ehird, lzma compression I guess?
18:27:49 <ehird> anyway, that's for a desktop
18:28:00 <ehird> so since we're just doing shells and grepping and all that regular shit
18:28:03 <Deewiant> Did he say how large his modules are?
18:28:21 <AnMaster> ehird, then most was in modules I assume
18:28:25 <ehird> my strategy would be no modules, simplest fs possible
18:28:46 <Deewiant> Obviously you can get straightforward reductions by just putting everything possible in M
18:28:53 <ehird> no drivers for anything but a console, keyboard, drive and whatever else you need to boot
18:29:11 <Deewiant> The module-loading code is probably fairly tiny so you can get away with including that
18:29:21 <ehird> Yes, but modules count
18:29:28 <ehird> anyway, then disable everything else, and compress it.
18:29:30 <AnMaster> ehird, bbl food. will try this afterwards
18:29:43 <ehird> can you compile linux on os x
18:31:18 <ehird> targeting a vm will be the best bet
18:31:20 <Deewiant> So what, latest stable or mainline?
18:31:24 <ehird> least janky hardware
18:31:38 <ehird> stable is what people actually use right?
18:32:21 <ehird> a whole 58 megs :(
18:32:31 <Deewiant> 100%[======================================>] 61 448 996 12.3M/s in 5.0s
18:32:58 <ehird> fuck this internet
18:33:06 <ehird> Deewiant: i hate you die
18:34:10 <ehird> Deewiant: gimme ssh!! :-P
18:34:33 <ehird> wonder if you can upx compress the kernel
18:34:42 <Deewiant> 'make allnoconfig' gives a 708K bzImage
18:35:05 <ehird> Yes, but can it actually do anything :p
18:35:22 <Deewiant> It can boot an x86, presumably.
18:35:32 <ehird> Well, try it in a VM?
18:36:38 <ehird> You don't have any VM software installed?
18:36:45 <ehird> Well, boot up your machine with it, then :D
18:37:01 <ehird> Anyway, 700 is waaaaaaaaaay too big
18:37:34 <ehird> How much ungzipped
18:37:47 <Deewiant> But yeah, I'm kinda surprised that people can make smaller ones, then :-P
18:38:07 <ehird> Deewiant: Maybe they use oooooooold ones
18:38:09 <pikhq> "allnoconfig" also says no to the option to turn off a few of the different options...
18:38:44 <Deewiant> menuconfig said it was gzip, so anyway
18:38:58 <pikhq> ehird: There's an option to pull up a menu for removing various major features like "error strings". ;)
18:38:59 <Deewiant> ehird: Of course the whole thing isn't gzipped, since it needs to have a BIOS-readable bit and such.
18:39:13 <ehird> Deewiant: But you tried anyway :P
18:39:33 <pikhq> Also, there's one of the allocators that doesn't use much bzimage space.
18:39:44 <Deewiant> ehird: Since you asked me to, I was hoping gzip would be somehow clever enough.
18:40:06 <pikhq> Also, 2.6.31 and up can use lzma for the image.
18:40:33 <pikhq> And I though upx could compress a kernel.
18:40:44 <Deewiant> I'm going through menuconfig activating various "disable foo" options.
18:41:07 <pikhq> Ypu, upx supports vmlinuz compression.
18:41:49 <ehird> I wonder if it beats the kernel's own
18:41:50 <Deewiant> Typically that's a typo for "you", not "yup".
18:42:10 <Deewiant> Hmmh, I can't seem to be able to disable mouse support
18:42:24 <ehird> Wonder what the smallest fs is
18:42:46 <ehird> Disabling initrd, yeah?
18:42:49 <Deewiant> Nothing useless like ELF binary support, either.
18:42:58 <Deewiant> I don't even have initrd on the kernel I use
18:43:00 <ais523> you have to support some sort of binary...
18:43:03 <Deewiant> Of course a.out isn't supported either
18:43:18 <ehird> Just execute RAW BINARIES YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH
18:43:21 <pikhq> ais523: Strictly speaking, it's optional.
18:43:31 <pikhq> Just not very useful (in general).
18:43:37 <ehird> Deewiant: use 2.4 man
18:43:45 <Deewiant> ehird: I thought we agreed on a version. :-P
18:43:54 <ehird> well yeah but mandatory proc?
18:43:57 <ehird> that's like the devil
18:44:21 <pikhq> I thought that was a disablable option.
18:45:42 <ehird> (Without compressing it in kernel)
18:45:43 <Deewiant> upx: arch/x86/boot/bzImage: CantPackException: kernel decompression failed
18:46:02 <pikhq> upx is still used to the gzip-only compression.
18:46:04 <Deewiant> ehird: It obviously unpacks it by itself first
18:46:16 <pikhq> Set the kernel to compress with gzip, then let upx have at it.
18:46:39 <Deewiant> ehird: There's no option for lack of compression, only gzip/bzip2/LZMA
18:46:45 <Deewiant> upx: arch/x86/boot/bzImage: CantPackException: unrecognized kernel architecture; use option '-f' to force packing
18:47:56 <Deewiant> 637952 -> 597310 93.63% bvmlinuz/386 bzImage
18:48:09 <ehird> Deewiant: Are you compiling with -Os
18:48:30 <ehird> Can you omit frame pointer?
18:48:37 <ehird> I guess -Os does that
18:48:44 <pikhq> Are you telling upx --best?
18:49:29 <Deewiant> Which, BTW, is much more annoying in Windows, where it tries like 72 options instead of the 10 or so it picks from on Linux.
18:49:30 <pikhq> I could've *sworn* one of the things upx does is lzma.
18:50:04 <ehird> Deewiant: Hex edit that thing
18:50:10 <ehird> Any trailing 0s or w/e?
18:50:27 <Deewiant> Setup is 13676 bytes (padded to 13824 bytes).
18:50:35 <Deewiant> So, yes, there's some padding there.
18:50:36 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> 100%[======================================>] 61 448 996 12.3M/s in 5.0s <-- wow cool
18:50:49 <ehird> Deewiant: So chop it off
18:50:53 <ehird> If it's trailing who cares
18:51:03 <ehird> AnMaster: That's standard 100 Mb/s speed, no?
18:51:31 <ehird> Move somewhere more urban :P
18:51:38 <ehird> Small price to pay
18:52:02 <AnMaster> how do I crosscompile kernel to x86
18:52:07 <AnMaster> I only have 64-bit systems around atm
18:52:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, upx? it works on kernel?
18:52:41 <Deewiant> Oh yes, mine is 64-bit as well.
18:52:54 <pikhq> AnMaster: make subarch=i386 or something like that.
18:53:01 <Deewiant> I should've built it in my chroot.
18:53:23 <ehird> He's doing it manually
18:53:39 <ehird> Also, what does embedded do? Sounds cheating :(
18:53:47 <AnMaster> ehird, allow you to turn off more options
18:53:51 <Deewiant> I started out from allnoconfig.
18:54:00 <pikhq> ehird: Turns off "error messages", swap support, etc.
18:54:07 <pikhq> I think that's in there.
18:54:19 <pikhq> Though if it's not, then that just means /proc is a couple lines of code. :P
18:57:19 <Deewiant> Oh right, I forgot about embedded *facepalm*
18:57:57 <ehird> You gotta boot up to a console and execute a shell with a keyboard, dood
18:58:05 <ehird> (Think embedded + 32-bit + compression fun should reach 200 KiB.)
18:58:06 <Deewiant> I'm just seeing how big a "can't do squat" kernel is
18:58:16 <AnMaster> <pikhq> AnMaster: make subarch=i386 or something like that. <-- no :(
19:00:04 <ehird> Wonder how ... wossname does
19:00:24 <ehird> it has to actually boot
19:00:36 <Deewiant> What part of "can't do squat" do you not understand?
19:01:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, linux32 in front works it seems
19:03:27 <Deewiant> Found some more options that embedded opened: I think 334K is just about the smallest 64-bit one possible
19:03:48 <pikhq> Should be a decent amount smaller for 32-bit.
19:03:54 <pikhq> Halving pointers helps. ;)
19:03:55 <Deewiant> Yes, since there I can disable x86.
19:04:05 <pikhq> ... Disable x86???
19:04:15 <Deewiant> pikhq: "Generic X86 support" =n
19:04:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, eh hpet can be disabled on 64-bit
19:04:23 <Deewiant> On x86-64 that wasn't an option.
19:04:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is because generic x86 isn't supported
19:04:45 <Deewiant> AnMaster: The option wasn't in the same place, at least.
19:04:46 <AnMaster> it is generic x86-64 support then
19:05:11 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:06:05 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> And HPET, and VM86, etc.
19:06:11 <Deewiant> I found some more stuff, so 334K can be beaten; won't do that now, though, working on 32-bit.
19:06:14 <AnMaster> vm86 is not supported on 64-bit
19:06:27 <AnMaster> hpet should be possible to turn off for both
19:06:35 <AnMaster> there are plenty of early 64-bit systems without hpet
19:06:39 <Deewiant> There wasn't an HPET option in the same place.
19:09:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is this "can't do a squat" or ehird's challenge?
19:09:50 * AnMaster is only doing ehird's challenge
19:11:08 <Deewiant> I have no way of testing whether my thing can actually do anything, so I can't really give reliable answers to ehird's challenge.
19:11:27 <AnMaster> ehird, ok with initramfs instead of proper disk support?
19:11:58 <Deewiant> I don't have any VM-thing installed and can't be bothered to install one and figure it out
19:13:28 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
19:13:28 <Deewiant> Found another option to disable, got 285536 (279 K) for a 386.
19:13:49 <Rugxulo> okay, I need people to bugtest my heavy hack of Ryan Kusnery's DOS Befunge93 interpreter
19:13:53 <Rugxulo> http://board.flatassembler.net/download.php?id=4623
19:14:04 <Rugxulo> seems to work for me, but more eyes is best
19:14:18 <Rugxulo> no, I suspect that won't run due to it using 128*128 by default (which I didn't change)
19:14:43 <Deewiant> Mycology's first 80x25 are valid Befunge-93, you can just cut that bit out for interpreters that won't accept bigger files
19:15:02 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:15:25 <Rugxulo> but what files exactly? aren't there a few I need to run on?
19:16:01 <Rugxulo> BTW, Ryan's webpage is pretty much AWOL now, and I fixed three bugs (and shrank it a lot)
19:16:10 <Deewiant> sanity.bf, first 80x25 of mycology.b98, mycorand.bf, mycouser.b98
19:16:12 <Rugxulo> original TASM version: 1280 bytes, my hacked FASM version: 1021 bytes
19:16:53 <ehird> kernel download done
19:18:39 <Rugxulo> er, what is sanity.bf supposed to do exactly??
19:18:47 <Rugxulo> loop infinitely?? crash gracefully??
19:19:01 <Deewiant> None of them should infloop or crash. :-P
19:19:25 <Rugxulo> "should reflect" ... what exactly does that mean?
19:19:45 <Deewiant> The IP should reverse direction and then continue on its way.
19:19:57 <Rugxulo> really? and that's standard practice??
19:20:02 <Rugxulo> I've never heard of anyone relying on that
19:20:17 <Rugxulo> reference C version does that? (lemme check)
19:21:41 <Deewiant> Also, it's not so much "standard practice" as it is "dictated by the Funge-98 standard", which is what Mycology is testing ;-)
19:21:57 <Deewiant> The -93 standard might be silent about it, I'm not sure.
19:21:59 <ehird> So just to confirm
19:22:05 <ehird> make whateverconfig
19:22:08 <Rugxulo> the BEF-2.2.1.ZIP version (bef.c) seems to print it okay but hangs
19:22:36 <Deewiant> So it probably just ignores invalid commands.
19:22:49 <Deewiant> I guess you can relax that requirement, then.
19:23:05 <ehird> What does that achieve
19:23:07 <Rugxulo> it will whine about invalid commands unless -q is specified, though
19:23:13 <Rugxulo> (bef.c was updated in 2004)
19:23:20 <Deewiant> ehird: I don't know, it's just what I do.
19:23:34 <Deewiant> Nope, that's not what it does.
19:23:36 <ehird> What about those noconfig, embedded things
19:23:44 <ehird> Can I still use the fancy GUIs?
19:23:55 <Deewiant> The compression is specified in the .config, not by using 'bzImage'.
19:24:11 <Deewiant> I don't know if it's any different from plain 'make'.
19:24:19 <Deewiant> ehird: I started with allnoconfig and then used menuconfig.
19:24:37 <Rugxulo> ah, I see what bef.c does now ... it ignores invalid instructions but your "intentionally inValid" string has a "v" which makes it loop endlessly downwards :-P
19:25:01 <Deewiant> If it didn't have a v, it'd endlessly print the string. :-P
19:25:24 <Deewiant> (Since it'd go back to the start.)
19:25:26 <ehird> Deewiant: do you do embedded in menuconfig?
19:25:36 <Deewiant> Yes, it's a perfectly normal option.
19:25:47 <Deewiant> Can't remember where, may have been "general setup".
19:26:10 <ehird> Wonder if this compiles with Apple's gcc 4.0
19:26:33 <ehird> fdimage - Create 1.4MB boot floppy image (arch/x86/boot/fdimage)
19:26:40 <ehird> Wonder where it gets the root FS from
19:27:57 <ehird> Doesn't look like a too bad UI.
19:28:47 <ehird> Gives crazy things like GENERIC_TIME
19:28:52 <ehird> With no description
19:29:04 <ehird> AnMaster: What's your record at; Deewiant: What's your record at
19:29:14 <Deewiant> 2009-10-24 21:13:28 ( Deewiant) Found another option to disable, got 285536 (279 K) for a 386.
19:29:16 <ehird> (First is "boots to shell w/ kb", second is "fails to do anything at aa ll")
19:29:20 <ehird> Deewiant: 32-bit, then.
19:29:46 <ehird> Oh, good point, I'll disable X86_32.
19:29:47 <ehird> (Did you look at the SCARY_UPPERCASE_OPTIONS?)
19:30:05 <Deewiant> I didn't look in the .config after that, if that's what you mean.
19:30:39 <ehird> Right, it hides that stuff
19:31:03 <ehird> "Enable loadable module support (NEW)"
19:31:32 <ehird> Disabling the block layer won't help me run a shell, that's for sure
19:31:58 <ehird> Do you actually need any I/O schedulers, or will it just do some dumbfuck retarded thing if you don't enable any? :D
19:32:43 * ehird wonders if a tickless system would result in less code
19:32:46 <ehird> I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I AM DOING
19:33:05 <Deewiant> There's a default scheduler of some kind if you disable them all.
19:33:26 <ehird> Yep, the no-op scheduler!
19:34:13 <ehird> Deewiant: Which gave best compression for you, LZMA and no UPX?
19:35:25 <ehird> "Support for paging of anonymous memory (swap)"
19:35:33 <ehird> They make it sound all so exciting and revolutionary.
19:35:36 <ehird> Every single boring option.
19:36:03 <ehird> IPC? Now what would I want IPC for
19:36:23 <ehird> "Select kernel log buffer size as power of two"
19:36:32 <ehird> WONDER IF THAT GOES INTO THE BINARY
19:37:04 <ehird> "remove sysfs features which" what is this sysfs
19:37:15 <ehird> Namespaces support? srsly?!
19:37:24 <ehird> Okay how the fuck do you uncheck an option
19:38:06 <ehird> That just brings up the gtk search-in-this-list thingy
19:38:21 <ehird> So much for easy-to-use GUIs
19:38:59 <Rugxulo> Deewiant: nope, hangs on B93 part of mycology
19:39:11 <Rugxulo> your testsuite is maybe a little too "hardcore" ;-)
19:39:28 <Rugxulo> all my examples I tried seem to work, though, so I guess until I figure out what exactly, it's "good enough"
19:39:50 <ehird> HOW DO YOU DISABLE THIS NAMESPACES SUPPORT ARGH
19:40:29 <Deewiant> That sucks quite a bit, actually; it should definitely say "0 1 2 ", at least :-P
19:40:41 <Rugxulo> mmm, pumpkin-flavor ice cream
19:41:11 <ehird> Deewiant: Oh, oh, but pressing y on an item works, and then pops up the find thingy anyway
19:41:14 <Deewiant> The only instructions hit by the time you get to "0 1 2" are 0#>. 1v<2
19:41:20 <ehird> Joy! And so does n!
19:41:46 <ehird> Seems you just can't turn off that lovable namespace support
19:41:49 <ehird> I'll do it in .config
19:42:30 <ehird> Embedded: "Only use this if you really know what you are doing."
19:42:36 <ehird> ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
19:42:56 <ehird> Legacy 16-bit UID syscall wrappers, eh? Wonder if going 32-bit only + that would be smaller than 16-bit. (Nah?)
19:43:11 <ehird> Can Linux even boot a 16-bit x86
19:43:16 <Deewiant> That was the last option I disabled to get to 279K instead of 280K.
19:44:29 <SimonRC> a word that English needs: hypersubtext
19:44:47 <Rugxulo> ehird, no, Linux needs a 386+ ... but ELKS can run on 8088/8086 (never tried)
19:44:49 <SimonRC> It's where you add extra meaning to some text by making words into links
19:44:53 <ehird> SimonRC: It really doesn't
19:45:07 <pikhq> The reason for those 16-bit syscall wrappers is, IIRC, for the sake of DOSemu.
19:45:08 <Rugxulo> ehird, 32-bit code is almost always larger than 16-bit
19:45:12 <SimonRC> Encyclopedia Dramatica does it a fair bit
19:45:22 <ehird> Rugxulo: No shit, but I don't need 16-bit code if I can't boot into it :P
19:45:44 <ehird> gconfig is worthless, menuconfig time
19:45:46 <Rugxulo> dunno, BIOS somewhere maybe??
19:46:31 <ehird> Ah, namespaces support is built-in
19:46:59 <ehird> Unless you check embedded! Yay!
19:47:00 <Rugxulo> <ehird>Deewiant: Which gave best compression for you, LZMA and no UPX?
19:47:28 <Rugxulo> maybe 'cause it's old LZMA 4.43
19:47:37 <ehird> │ This option is provided for the case where no hotplug or uevent │
19:47:39 <ehird> │ capabilities is wanted by the kernel. You should only consider │
19:47:39 <ehird> │ disabling this option for embedded systems that do not use modules, a │
19:47:39 <ehird> │ dynamic /dev tree, or dynamic device discovery. Just say Y. │
19:47:47 <Rugxulo> BTW, so nobody here has ever heard of or tried pumpkin-flavored ice cream???? o_O
19:48:00 <ehird> printk? Who the fuck wants printk?
19:48:25 <ehird> I spit on PC speakers!
19:48:39 <ehird> │ Disabling this option will cause the kernel to be built without │
19:48:39 <Rugxulo> spitting on one makes the same sound as its music ;-)
19:48:39 <ehird> │ support for "fast userspace mutexes". The resulting kernel may not │
19:48:39 <ehird> │ run glibc-based applications correctly. │
19:48:42 <ehird> Who cares about glibc?
19:48:47 <ehird> But I wonder if it'll make it smaller.
19:48:50 <Rugxulo> BTW, PC speaker can play analog samples, too
19:48:51 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: What's your record at; Deewiant: What's your record at <-- just back again
19:49:02 <Rugxulo> uh, everything uses glibc ...
19:49:14 <ehird> Shared memory? Bulllllllllshit
19:49:16 <ehird> Rugxulo: Busybox doesn't
19:49:18 <AnMaster> <Rugxulo> BTW, PC speaker can play analog samples, too <-- yes. In ALSA
19:49:25 <ehird> AND BUSYBOX IS ALL THAT MATTERS
19:49:26 <Rugxulo> ehird, I mean I suspect you'll want it
19:49:28 <pikhq> I thought busybox used a libc?
19:49:30 <Deewiant> And some other things that don't use libc don't, either.
19:49:43 <Rugxulo> I meant most big apps that most people use
19:49:46 <pikhq> (though absolutely nothing glibc-specific)
19:49:46 <ehird> Rugxulo: We're competing for smallest kernel that can boot a shell to an x86 with a console, keyboard,
19:49:58 <ais523> busybox uses ulibc, I think; possibly statically linked
19:50:08 <ehird> Things shall get GNARLY
19:50:12 <ehird> Rugxulo: It's a game, you see.
19:50:14 <SimonRC> you think possibly you could have a busybox shell without utilities ;-)
19:50:16 <pikhq> ais523: busybox uses whatever libc you want to link it with.
19:50:22 <Rugxulo> ehird, I *completely* understand
19:50:34 <Rugxulo> I just spent the last two days whittling down a 1213-byte .COM to 1021 bytes ;-)
19:50:38 <AnMaster> ehird, any idea where I can find an a.out compiler/linker
19:50:41 <ehird> VM event counters? laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame
19:50:48 <ehird> AnMaster: Compile one
19:50:49 <pikhq> AnMaster: Grab gcc-3 or gcc-2.
19:51:01 <pikhq> Maybe even gcc 4.0.
19:51:05 <ehird> "Strip assembler-generated symbols during link" FUCK YES
19:51:09 <pikhq> I know it's been removed in the latest version.
19:51:10 <ais523> IIRC they deprecated a.out recently
19:51:17 <ehird> Which can still do it, I think
19:51:26 <pikhq> ehird: Still need to build a new gcc.
19:51:30 <AnMaster> "Enable doublefault exception handler" no way
19:51:37 <ehird> Disable heap randomisation?
19:51:39 <pikhq> (it's a different target)
19:51:40 <ehird> That probably takes up code, doesn't it
19:51:59 <ehird> SLAB, SLUB or SLOB. SLOB is "Simple Allocator".
19:52:02 <ehird> I bet it's the smallest.
19:52:07 <ehird> MORE SPACE EFFICIENT
19:52:07 <pikhq> SLOB is the smallest.
19:52:09 <ehird> DRASTICALLY SIMPLER
19:52:11 <ehird> DEPENDS ON EMBEDDED
19:52:29 <Rugxulo> ehird, BasicLinux is pretty small, so is tomsrtbt or BlueFlops
19:52:29 <ehird> Can you -fomit-frame-pointer on the kernel? :P
19:52:36 <ehird> Rugxulo: Dude, those are whole meg floppies
19:52:41 <ehird> We're going for 200 KiB range to start with
19:52:42 <Deewiant> ehird: Yes, there's a config option for that.
19:52:44 <ehird> Holy grail is under 100 KiB
19:52:55 <Rugxulo> BTW, what version are you trying, 2.6?
19:53:12 <ehird> It's so bloated and cute
19:53:20 <Rugxulo> (Smash TV): "Good luck, you'll need it!"
19:53:28 <Rugxulo> heh, even Linus called it bloated
19:53:30 <ehird> Do you think the dynamic ticks / tickless system will have less code?
19:53:35 <ehird> Doesn't have to handle... ticks... does it?!
19:53:43 <ehird> Of course it has to handle a bunch of other shit too I guess :P
19:54:01 <Deewiant> 277K with SLOB instead of SLAB.
19:54:20 <ehird> │ Calculate simpler /proc/<PID>/wchan values. If this option │
19:54:21 <ehird> │ is disabled then wchan values will recurse back to the │
19:54:21 <ehird> │ caller function. This provides more accurate wchan values, │
19:54:22 <ehird> │ at the expense of slightly more scheduling overhead. │
19:54:30 <ehird> IRRRRRRRRRR-ELEVANT
19:54:53 <ehird> Pentium Pro? PENTIUM FUCKING PRO?
19:54:53 <ehird> I'm not a rich asshole
19:54:53 <ehird> And that's all I am
19:55:13 <ehird> I wonder if Generic x86 support's optimisations will decrease code size
19:55:32 <ehird> │ Enabled scanning of DMI to identify machine quirks. Say Y │
19:55:32 <ehird> │ here unless you have verified that your setup is not │
19:55:32 <ehird> │ affected by entries in the DMI blacklist. Required by PNP │
19:55:34 <Deewiant> ehird: Sorry, tickless adds about 2K.
19:56:19 <ehird> No forced preemption, last code
19:56:21 <Rugxulo> http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/23/linus-torvalds-gives-windows-7-a-big-thumbs-up/
19:56:21 <Deewiant> ehird: Generic X86 adds about 9K.
19:56:23 <ehird> Man this will be slow as shit
19:56:49 <ehird> │ This option is required by programs like DOSEMU to run 16-bit legacy │
19:56:50 <ehird> │ code on X86 processors. It also may be needed by software like │
19:56:50 <ehird> │ XFree86 to initialize some video cards via BIOS. Disabling this │
19:56:51 <ehird> │ option saves about 6k. │
19:56:57 <SimonRC> I wasn't certain when I say it before
19:57:15 <ehird> Have you got high memory support on, Deewiant?
19:57:29 <ehird> │ This is the portion of low virtual memory which should be protected │
19:57:29 <ehird> │ from userspace allocation. Keeping a user from writing to low pages │
19:57:29 <ehird> │ can help reduce the impact of kernel NULL pointer bugs. │
19:57:32 <ehird> Wonder if that affects the binary
19:57:36 <ehird> CONFIG_DEFAULT_MMAP_MIN_ADDR
19:57:39 <Deewiant> 100Hz instead of 250 -> 282960
19:57:56 <ehird> Is there anything below 100Hz
19:58:19 <ehird> │ │ (0x1000000) Physical address where the kernel is loaded (NEW) │ │
19:58:20 <ehird> │ │ (0x1000000) Alignment value to which kernel should be aligned │ │
19:58:27 <Deewiant> Even 1000Hz was smaller than 250Hz, actually
19:58:50 <ehird> Does that change the actual binary
19:59:22 <Deewiant> Evidently 0xffff also works for the latter... will see if that changes anything
19:59:47 * ehird enables a.out support, I'll have to crosscompile the binaries anyway
20:00:04 <Deewiant> Nope, #error "Invalid value for CONFIG_PHYSICAL_ALIGN"
20:00:53 <Deewiant> Even at 0x2000 it's still 282960.
20:01:00 <Rugxulo> how big is the generic kernel?
20:01:07 <pikhq> Think it has to be sizeof(void*)-aligned.
20:01:09 <Rugxulo> and why not try something like Minix instead? (probably smaller)
20:01:18 <Rugxulo> generic as in "everything included"
20:01:22 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Missing the point FTW.
20:01:23 <Deewiant> pikhq: It didn't accept 0x1000 or anything smaller starting with 0x1
20:01:56 <Rugxulo> I'm not saying this isn't a worthy exercise, but Minix is probably more "minimal"
20:01:58 <Deewiant> 0x2000 was the smallest power of two it accepted
20:02:09 <ehird> │ CONFIG_PREVENT_FIRMWARE_BUILD: │
20:02:09 <ehird> │ Say yes to avoid building firmware. Firmware is usually shipped │
20:02:12 <ehird> │ with the driver, and only when updating the firmware a rebuild │
20:02:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, with or without upx?
20:02:15 <ehird> │ should be made. │
20:02:18 <ehird> CONFIG_PREVENT_FIRMWARE_BUILD
20:02:22 <ehird> Sounds good anyway
20:02:24 * ehird enables block devices SHOCK HORROR
20:02:26 <ehird> Hmm... floppy disk, RAM block, or VeryOldHardDisk.
20:02:28 <ehird> Probably RAM block is the simplest, but then everything has to fit into the bootsector
20:02:32 <ehird> Although that would be awesome
20:02:33 <Deewiant> ehird: Since you don't have extra firmware I don't think that makes a difference
20:02:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah your was minimal unusable right?
20:02:40 <ehird> Deewiant: does it make it smaller?
20:03:14 <Deewiant> ehird: 2009-10-24 22:00:52 ( Deewiant) Even at 0x2000 it's still 282960.
20:03:26 <ehird> Right, just confirming
20:03:34 <ehird> I wonder whether Very old hard disk or Normal floppy disk will be smaller
20:03:53 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: I'm building an allyesconfig for you
20:04:22 <Rugxulo> I think *BSD is typically like 8 MB for generic
20:04:29 <ehird> Does that support all architectures, Deewiant?
20:04:38 <Rugxulo> (OpenBSD is a little smaller due to no modules or compatibility or whatever, I think)
20:04:44 <Deewiant> I'm not sure what flavour of x86 it selects anyway
20:04:54 <Deewiant> Probably the default, which is that PentiumPro or whatever
20:04:57 <ehird> This sort of stuff has some sorta practical usage! http://stali.suckless.org/
20:05:05 <ehird> Deewiant: Pfft, Core2 4eva
20:05:24 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: This won't have any modules, of course
20:05:32 <Deewiant> Since everything'll be built-in. :-P
20:05:40 <Rugxulo> ehird, GCC doesn't really do much beyond PPro (CMOV..)
20:05:45 <Deewiant> I should've timed the build...
20:05:48 <Rugxulo> I'm pretty sure that's what it means
20:05:56 <ehird> So guys, very old hard disk or floppy
20:06:01 <Rugxulo> one guy told me it took him 30 mins. to rebuild his FreeBSD kernel
20:06:03 <Deewiant> I'm pretty sure it knows about some instruction timings / whatever
20:06:14 <AnMaster> ehird, no floppy, no disk for me
20:06:22 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm going for initramfs instead
20:06:23 <ehird> AnMaster: Wherefore art thou busybox
20:06:25 <Deewiant> E.g. on x86 processor X instruction I is preferable to J, but not on processor Y.
20:06:30 <ehird> AnMaster: That'll bloat the shit out of it
20:06:38 <AnMaster> ehird, I suspect it will be smaller
20:06:46 <ehird> Rugxulo: Why floppy, why not disk
20:06:58 <Rugxulo> Deewiant, yes, but "pentiumpro" is just a synonym for "i686" anyways (and "generic", last I checked)
20:07:03 <ehird> It explicitly states the disk thing is for very old disks and is unfancy
20:07:28 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: Sure, but "yonah" and "core2" and whatever aren't, so it does do something with that info. :-P
20:07:48 <Deewiant> ehird: There is a third option: try both!
20:08:03 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: It implies various SSE things, of course.
20:08:15 <Rugxulo> yes, but GCC isn't too great at that (although at least 4.3.2+ tries ...)
20:08:25 <Deewiant> Not sure if the kernel benefits from that at all unless you build in the various crypto algos
20:08:26 <Rugxulo> very very weakly, but it does try
20:08:41 <ehird> The floppy disk thing is common
20:08:48 <ehird> So old creaky minimal disk = less bloat
20:08:53 <Rugxulo> besides, there is no Core1 tuning at all, I think you have to use prescott (or maybe nocona)
20:08:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you can't use SSE in kernel sanely iirc
20:09:00 <Rugxulo> not that most people have that (me either)
20:09:11 <ehird> Netburst = Pentium4
20:09:21 <Rugxulo> no, Core 1 was based upon Pentium-M
20:09:25 <Rugxulo> which was mobile P3 w/ SSE2
20:09:49 <ehird> Rugxulo: You're right
20:09:54 <Rugxulo> Core 1 didn't support 64-bit, though
20:09:59 <AnMaster> is smallest I get with block layer
20:10:15 <ehird> generic HID support = keyboard, right?
20:10:25 <AnMaster> ehird, generic hid is USB stuff
20:10:44 <Rugxulo> heh, it'll be a miracle if this thing runs at all ;-)
20:10:45 <AnMaster> ehird, just enable AT keyboard under input devices
20:10:58 <ehird> Ah, didn't notice that
20:11:25 <ehird> AnMaster: Are you sure an XT keyboard wouldn't be less bloated :-)
20:11:38 <AnMaster> ehird, anything that can emulate it?
20:11:39 <ehird> This game is basically "Find the bits of Linux everyone else has forgotten about"
20:11:55 <ehird> AnMaster: It's just a parallel port board, ask the guys at geekhack.org to find one, they'll hook you up an ebay link in a pinch :P
20:12:05 <ehird> AnMaster: The more popular bits of Linux are "improved" more
20:12:17 <ehird> We're digging to find stuff retained from the olden days
20:12:24 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway 329824 for me. Not tested
20:12:26 <Deewiant> The generic input layer can't be removed, though
20:12:40 <ehird> Where do you disable sysfs, I wonder
20:12:48 <Deewiant> Oh, wtf, I have virtual terminal support
20:12:50 <ehird> POSIX FILE LOCKING API? BULLSHIT
20:13:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, needed for actual terminal
20:13:22 <ehird> ext2, ext3, ext4, murderfs oops I mean reiserfs
20:13:23 <AnMaster> but then you aren't doing ehird's
20:13:29 <ehird> JFS, XFS... all bloated piles of shit
20:13:32 <ehird> ok, DOS/FAT/NT It is
20:13:47 <ehird> Bet I beat you eventually
20:13:58 <ehird> │ This option will enlarge your kernel by about 7 KB. If unsure, │
20:13:59 <ehird> │ answer Y. This will only work if you said Y to "DOS FAT fs support" │
20:13:59 <ehird> │ as well. To compile this as a module, choose M here: the module will │
20:13:59 <ehird> │ be called msdos. │
20:14:05 <ehird> Can't I just have FAT12 :(
20:14:20 <Deewiant> (VTs are bloated! That was 10%)
20:14:38 <ehird> "It's totally cool" — CONFIG_PROC_FS
20:15:01 <Deewiant> allyesconfig is still building happily
20:15:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Make sure to enable US-ASCII in Native language support
20:15:44 <ehird> I'm pretty sure you need to have at least one there
20:15:46 <AnMaster> Setup is 11980 bytes (padded to 12288 bytes).
20:15:46 <AnMaster> Kernel: arch/x86/boot/bzImage is ready (#4)
20:15:46 <AnMaster> arvid@dragon ~/src/kernel/linux-2.6.31.5 $ du -b arch/x86/boot/bzImage
20:15:48 <Rugxulo> but I admire you using it (most Linuxes don't even have beyond 4.3.3 yet)
20:15:55 <AnMaster> ehird, unless you are doing FAT
20:15:59 <Rugxulo> although 4.4.2 is out ;-))
20:16:10 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: Arch Linux's package.
20:16:11 <ehird> AnMaster: Why, is ASCII built-in? It's an option
20:16:21 <ehird> I'll go with FAT disks for now
20:16:23 <ehird> can always change it
20:16:35 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't built in. Kernel uses unicode for FSes internally
20:16:49 <ehird> CODE LOTS OF CODE KILL
20:17:08 <AnMaster> ehird, probably it doesn't actually care
20:17:09 <Rugxulo> that's nothing, Win7 needs 16 GB of space (and twice that if you use XP Mode)
20:17:18 <AnMaster> to it, it is just "not \0, not /"
20:17:23 <ehird> │ │ [*] Early printk (NEW) │ │
20:17:24 <Deewiant> Of course, Win7 is more than just a kernel.
20:17:29 <ehird> How does that work, I don't even have printk
20:17:48 <Rugxulo> yeah, it lets 5-year-old girls make slideshows with copyrighted songs
20:17:54 <ehird> │ │ [ ] Use 4Kb for kernel stacks instead of 8Kb │ │
20:17:57 <ehird> Deewiant: Reduces size?
20:18:05 <ehird> │ This option allows trapping of rare doublefault exceptions that │
20:18:06 <ehird> │ would otherwise cause a system to silently reboot. Disabling this │
20:18:06 <ehird> │ option saves about 4k and might cause you much additional grey │
20:18:33 <ehird> │ │ [ ] Allow gcc to uninline functions marked 'inline' │ │
20:18:39 <ehird> Deewiant: Might that shrink it?
20:18:57 <AnMaster> it might, didn't test without it
20:19:01 <ehird> Uh, how do I save?
20:19:03 <ehird> Is that automatically done?
20:19:15 <Rugxulo> -march=i386 -Os -s -fomit-frame-pointer -malign-jumps=2 -malign-loops=2 -malign-functions=2 (I think ... although this is obviously untested on a kernel)
20:19:19 <Deewiant> There's also an explicit save at the top-level
20:19:37 <ehird> [~/Downloads/linux-2.6.31.5]$ cp .config ../linuxconfig
20:19:44 <ehird> Time for make bzImage?????
20:19:54 <ehird> How long will this take, I wonder
20:19:57 <ehird> AnMaster: Deewiant does it this way
20:19:58 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:20:22 <ehird> Someone wanna build this for me?
20:20:24 <ehird> Can't really, you know
20:20:25 <Deewiant> ehird: Hey, 255424 with 4kb stacks
20:20:33 <ehird> Deewiant: Increase the stacks!
20:20:53 <ehird> Which one of you kindly fellows can I enlist to copy this .config over and build it
20:20:58 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_09/mn7105_cover.gif
20:21:24 <ehird> Deewiant: Quite small
20:21:31 <ehird> AnMaster: Want me to pastebin it?
20:22:13 <Deewiant> strip:bzImage: File format not recognized
20:22:20 <ehird> AnMaster: http://pastie.org/668209.txt?key=dxgyzbdi6maappqvzlocq
20:22:24 <ehird> AnMaster: (for 32-bit please)
20:22:35 <ehird> CONFIG_OUTPUT_FORMAT="elf32-i386"
20:22:43 <ehird> Do you have the ability to make that a.out?
20:23:02 <ehird> If so, uh, please do :/
20:23:05 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: Well, Linux does support a lot more stuff than your average BSD.
20:23:16 <Rugxulo> obviously, it's three times as big!
20:23:29 <AnMaster> ehird, and I only have gcc 4.x here
20:23:37 <ehird> So? 4.0.1 does it, I think :P
20:23:46 <ehird> Anyway, ELF is fine
20:23:49 <ehird> The kernel only supports a.out
20:23:57 <ehird> I'll need to crosscompile to compile the busyboxing
20:24:02 <ehird> Hmm, can you even use elf.h on a non-ELF system
20:24:08 <AnMaster> ehird, I have 4.4 and 4.5-snapshot too
20:24:15 <AnMaster> but the latter one miscompiles everything
20:24:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it does do LTO though
20:24:48 <AnMaster> ehird, your kernel: 342976 arch/x86/boot/bzImage
20:25:31 <AnMaster> ehird, want me to upload the bzimage somewhere?
20:25:36 <ehird> Gonna have to get jiggy wit' it, as is the vernacular, I gather, to further this downwardsly
20:25:39 <AnMaster> if so, give me a command line to execute to do it
20:25:44 <ehird> AnMaster: It's an ELF that can only load a.outs and I have no system to do anything
20:25:56 <ehird> Besides, who cares if it works if it works in theory?
20:26:08 <AnMaster> ehird, you said it had to boot in a VM?
20:26:37 <Rugxulo> 10/24/2009 02:26 PM 11,481,646 netbsd-GENERIC
20:26:42 <ehird> I wonder if the MISC binary support is smaller than the a.out binary support
20:26:47 <ehird> │ If you say Y here, it will be possible to plug wrapper-driven binary │
20:26:48 <ehird> │ formats into the kernel. You will like this especially when you use │
20:26:48 <ehird> │ programs that need an interpreter to run like Java, Python, .NET or │
20:26:49 <ehird> │ Emacs-Lisp. It's also useful if you often run DOS executables under │
20:26:52 <ehird> WHAT IS THIS HORROR
20:26:56 <ehird> WHAT IS THIS HORROR
20:27:20 <AnMaster> ehird, can't be done. I checked
20:27:24 -!- madbrain has joined.
20:27:26 <AnMaster> LD drivers/video/backlight/built-in.o
20:27:36 <ehird> ..................................... You can't get rid of wireless?
20:27:38 <zzo38> Pokemon Philosophy is a complex subject filled with contradictions. Many subphilosophies are used of it, based on opinion, context, and other things. For example, I have the terms "strongly basic" and "weakly basic" used to describe some things, and other terms are used too. Maybe you can guess what these terms mean, maybe not. Maybe I should make a wiki of it
20:27:40 <ehird> What is that fucking bullshit crapass
20:27:54 <AnMaster> ehird, it is just a placeholder wireless thingy
20:28:06 <ehird> Just done /backlight, nothing I can find
20:28:38 <Rugxulo> NetBSD: 11.5 MB, Linux: 27 MB
20:28:41 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway http://pastebin.ca/1641881
20:28:50 * ehird does romfs on a floppy disk or something
20:29:16 <ehird> │ This is a very small read-only file system mainly intended for │
20:29:17 <ehird> │ initial ram disks of installation disks, but it could be used for │
20:29:17 <ehird> │ other read-only media as well. Read │
20:29:18 <ehird> │ <file:Documentation/filesystems/romfs.txt> for details. │
20:29:19 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: I'm not sure whether 'allyesconfig' is the fully generic thing, anyway; it may include a lot of 'disable X'.
20:29:37 <ehird> whichever is smaller.
20:29:51 <AnMaster> ehird, you only get one more compile from me
20:29:56 <Rugxulo> http://www.catseye.tc/projects/befos/
20:29:59 <ehird> Then I have to pay?
20:30:22 <ehird> Can you see which is bigger, floppy disk driiver or very old hard disk driver
20:30:50 <AnMaster> $ file arch/x86/kernel/acpi/built-in.o
20:30:50 <AnMaster> arch/x86/kernel/acpi/built-in.o: current ar archive
20:31:14 <AnMaster> $ du -b arch/x86/kernel/acpi/built-in.o
20:31:14 <AnMaster> 8 arch/x86/kernel/acpi/built-in.o
20:32:23 <AnMaster> ehird, [ ] Supported processor vendors --->
20:32:35 <AnMaster> should remove some code to check
20:32:52 <AnMaster> though it might be in the padded setup hm
20:33:15 <ehird> It's totally disabled
20:34:13 <augur> its making some pinging noise outside
20:34:28 <augur> and it sounds just like the name ping in limechat
20:37:53 <ehird> hope that answers your question
20:38:57 <AnMaster> curriculum vitae: a summary of your academic and work history
20:38:57 <AnMaster> one hundred five: being five more than one hundred
20:38:57 <AnMaster> wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
20:39:00 <ehird> i need to know which of these is smaller :<
20:39:31 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't you have a linux install on there?
20:39:51 <AnMaster> .fj is the country code top-level domain (ccTLD) for Fiji.
20:40:09 <madbrain> anmaster: isn't the english name for CV "resumé" ?
20:40:25 <AnMaster> madbrain, maybe. CV is the term I heard for it here in Sweden
20:40:33 <AnMaster> wouldn't know about English name for it
20:40:42 <ehird> cv is used in uk english
20:41:20 <AnMaster> who cares about US, AU or CA English?
20:42:12 <AnMaster> (probably it is something like "dinga-waly" in AU English anyway :P)
20:42:20 <Deewiant> ehird: Sorry, I rebooted to Windows. :-P
20:43:11 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah but if you told him "fuck you" it would be a lot funnier
20:43:36 <AnMaster> ehird, just reboot into linux yourself
20:44:03 <ehird> steps omitted: get hfs+ reading fucking working, move file, move kernel over, get used to the new environment, reconnect to irc, blah bla hla ldfgdfklv,hbjk
20:44:45 <AnMaster> ehird, eh. Just pastebin it, write down url on paper, enter the url again on the other side
20:44:51 <AnMaster> and start using a bouncer again
20:44:55 -!- Rugxulo has left (?).
20:45:00 <ehird> oh, and redownload all the kernel?
20:45:09 <ehird> with my dog-slow internet that costs £15 per GB?
20:45:13 <AnMaster> ehird, oh forgot that it took more than ~20 seconds for you
20:45:15 <HackEgo> 15 UK = 166.055793 Swedish kronor
20:45:37 <AnMaster> sorry, it takes about one minute for me
20:45:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Wasn't it 5 seconds?
20:45:56 <ehird> It is mobile and 3G, you understand
20:46:03 <ehird> The pricing is incomprehensible
20:46:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh I thought that was "time left"
20:46:15 <madbrain> dude, in canada, mobile internet is like 3¢/kb
20:46:20 <ehird> Land line connection hasn't migrated sucks ass
20:46:21 <Deewiant> At least for downloading 60-megabyte files :-P
20:46:25 <ehird> Will only be 3-4 Mb when it has sucks ass
20:46:31 <ehird> madbrain: What, mobile "broadband"?
20:46:52 <madbrain> specifically cell phone internet
20:47:07 <madbrain> used in a place like mexico to get roaming charges
20:47:12 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Maybe, I didn't look at it in too much detail myself.
20:47:20 <AnMaster> ehird, ok just checked 74s at 819K/s
20:47:44 <ehird> When I move to Sweden and steal that 4 Gb connection they gave to that guy's grandma
20:47:46 <ehird> YOU'LL ALL BE CRYING
20:47:58 <AnMaster> ehird, um this is 8 mbit down ADSL
20:48:00 <madbrain> ehird: specifically this http://your.rogers.com/Business/productsservices/wireless/servicesaddons/pccards.asp?&cm_mmc=grdrt-_-all-_-en-_-stick
20:48:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Your statement is apropos of nothing
20:48:23 <ehird> madbrain: more or less expensive, I'm too tired to work it out
20:48:26 <fizzie> ineiros just downloaded a 60M file with my 3G stick, which is contractually limited to 384k. I guess it was some 15 minutes.
20:48:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Some internet guy
20:49:23 <madbrain> ehird: like, some people used it in the dominican republic and raked up bills of 1500$ from 3 or 4 sessions of about 10 minutes each
20:49:25 <ehird> I keep fingering the keyboard for my f key's nub, but I replaced it with another key
20:49:49 <fizzie> Mobile roaming has some really incredible prices. And often huge granularity in the pricing.
20:50:22 <ehird> it's just depressing that I'm gonna make the leap from mobile ... to ... 3-4 Mb adsl
20:50:37 <fizzie> Roaming GPRS in Italy (for our Finnish operators) was something like 10 EUR/megabyte.
20:51:09 <madbrain> ""Data Other data 4,220.00 Kb 211.00DL $211.00 Txt ""
20:51:25 <fizzie> (But since one operator counted it in 10k block, sending small emails with a custom-built proggie was still cheaper than SMS.)
20:51:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
20:52:09 <madbrain> ehird: that's why mobile telephony isn't as popular in canada as in other countries... their rates are astronomic
20:52:17 <fizzie> Hey, it's the altparty supercomputer democompo real soon now.
20:53:01 <ehird> we can't get cable, fibre-optic, pony-delivered internet, anything here, just regular adsl dog slow at 3-4 Mb/s because the exchange is in another fucking town >_<
20:53:17 <fizzie> They had invited a guy from Cray, and he had brought one of those "put-it-unside-your-desk" "supercomputers" (Cray CX1, I think) with him. (The actual competition used one of CSC's machines, I think.)
20:54:36 <fizzie> And apparently they're running it with the CX1 too, a shame. Makes sense, though.
20:54:52 <ehird> Youuuuuuuuuuuuu have a linux system don't you
20:55:11 <ehird> mWAHAhAHAHAHAHahAHAHAHAHAHA
20:55:17 <fizzie> A couple, yes, but I'm not actually at them right now.
20:55:25 <ehird> CURSES! Foiled again!
20:55:55 -!- FireFly has joined.
20:58:24 <fizzie> http://www.altparty.org/2009/competition-rules.html#csc-compo and "Technical specifications"; it's just that you can't really call the CX1 a "supercomputer"; it's just a small commodity cluster compressed into a tiny-ish box. (Okay, so the infiniband network is a bit special.)
21:09:34 <ehird> All supercomputers are commodity clusters
21:10:51 <Deewiant> But they come in bigger boxes.
21:15:49 -!- jix has joined.
21:17:27 <madbrain> cray parallel computer demo eh?
21:19:58 -!- Oranjer1 has joined.
21:21:58 <AnMaster> Oranjer1, no, I just ate half a garlic
21:21:59 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:22:22 <Oranjer1> I agree, I am glad that water exists
21:24:39 <AnMaster> oerjan, on the other hand, userfriendly took a rather unexpected turn as of recently
21:24:47 <AnMaster> (iirc you read (or at least read) it?)
21:25:20 <AnMaster> (curses, past tense of read is read)
21:25:53 <oerjan> AnMaster: i understood your tenses perfectly :D
21:26:13 <AnMaster> I just answered your question Oranjer1
21:26:38 <AnMaster> Oranjer1, that is, "irregular webcomic" and "userfriendly"
21:28:14 <oerjan> i am glad my attempt to be obscure worked
21:28:17 <AnMaster> <oerjan> AnMaster: i understood your tenses per fectly :D <-- ?
21:28:27 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----###
21:28:44 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:28:44 <Oranjer1> what's going on I am scared this scares me
21:28:56 <oerjan> AnMaster: user friendly in two words
21:29:21 <AnMaster> Oranjer1, you are always so emotional and confused...
21:29:42 <Oranjer1> fungot, what's your emotional trauma?
21:29:43 <AnMaster> Oranjer1, you keep reminding me of Sgeo
21:29:47 <fungot> Oranjer1: fnord noting in almost every case the well-nigh omnipresent sculptures, which indeed seem to have difficulty in seeing at night, he tethered his zebra to a sapling and fnord himself deliberately north along garrison street. by the time dr. waite called in person, having obtained his name and fortune. so the youth had found himself working, chilled and clad only in the fnord air. the temperature was rapidly ascending,
21:29:53 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft* nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
21:30:34 <oerjan> that sounds traumatic indeed
21:31:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, sadly less so than one could have hoped with that style
21:31:05 <Oranjer1> "having obtained his name and fortune" :O
21:31:17 <fungot> AnMaster: through the gates of his lost boyhood which caused a number of these the good man could truly tell nothing. it is an impression quite similar to one which i have granted eleven times only to beings of your planet five times only to beings of your planet five times only to beings of your planet five times only to beings of your planet five times only to beings of your planet five times only to those you call men, or th
21:31:45 <AnMaster> it shouldn't have missed your line Oranjer1
21:31:54 <oerjan> time is non-euclidean in that style
21:32:06 <fungot> Oranjer1: and tore him to pieces before my eyes. a moment later i had raised one of the current arkham tales is about fat oaks that shine and move as they ought to be. they told me the hideous secret of nyarlathotep, with that torrent of wind and shrieking sound growing moment by moment, and then
21:32:35 <AnMaster> Oranjer1, to scared to continue
21:32:45 <Oranjer1> this does remind me of that one game
21:32:53 <Oranjer1> where you traverse some stories
21:32:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Missing that line was perfectly normal: the last few were to him, so the anti-spamming filter kicked in.
21:33:15 <AnMaster> <Oranjer1> fungot, say something scary
21:33:16 <fungot> AnMaster: outside, across the putrid moat and under the sea; but carter did not see this time the bodies must have been sent fnord. i am telling the truth, and i literally raced along the fnord brink, but at no time did he give up hope. early this year he made great fnord through a book he desperately fnord so at length they strove to exercise fnord, fnord
21:33:17 <fungot> AnMaster: decade on every hand, while on his chest and of apelike claws on his back; and when they had a kind of force that doesn't belong in our part of space where form does not exist at all, but concerned the more abstract matters which i have since found highly characteristic of him that this part of the lore of the past was his undoing. he stumbled on things no mortal ought ever to know, for then mankind would have become
21:34:10 <Oranjer1> geez I'm all up for random fnord's but that's too much
21:34:43 <ehird> [21:28] Oranjer1: what's going on I am scared this scares me
21:34:43 <ehird> vaguely pfsc. except too excited.
21:35:01 <ehird> http://www.picturesforsadchildren.com/
21:35:16 <ehird> this is the day where we refer to webcomics in acronyms
21:36:16 <AnMaster> Oranjer1, I assume you don't dislike TLAs at least?
21:36:42 <AnMaster> Oranjer1, so all acronyms except TLAs then?
21:37:36 <Oranjer1> oh uh I am okay with no length of acronym sorry
21:37:51 <Oranjer1> TLA's (three letter acronyms) are out as well
21:38:19 <Oranjer1> I am okay with acronyms though if you put WTSF (what they stand for) immediately after the first time you mention them
21:39:11 <ehird> thank you, captain obvious
21:39:19 <ehird> i am promoting you to general obvious
21:39:22 <ehird> for your keen insights into the absolutely obvious
21:39:24 <ehird> congratulations, AnMaster
21:39:26 <Oranjer1> I prefer buttersafe and Perry Bible Fellowship
21:39:39 <ehird> pbf stopped updating often and i became a sad person
21:39:45 <AnMaster> <Oranjer1> I am okay with acronyms though if you put WTSF (what they stand for) immediately after the first time you mention them <-- I did. Some months ago
21:39:52 <Oranjer1> http://jayisgames.com/archives/2009/08/silent_conversation.php
21:40:01 <AnMaster> Oranjer1, when I first read iwc
21:40:07 <Oranjer1> no each time you say it in a new medium
21:40:26 <ehird> it's not even a game
21:40:41 <AnMaster> <Oranjer1> http://jayisgames.com/archives/2009/08/silent_conversation.php <-- what is it about
21:40:59 <ehird> thank you AnMaster. we care about your opinion on flash
21:40:59 <Oranjer1> you...you don't even have a flash player plug-in?
21:41:05 <ehird> please mention it to us all the time
21:41:10 <ehird> oh wait, never mind
21:41:33 <Oranjer1> yeah I know I was like "wow" too
21:41:43 -!- Oranjer1 has changed nick to Oranjer.
21:41:48 <AnMaster> Oranjer, no java plugin either
21:41:57 <ehird> YOU ARE SO RADICAL ANMASTER
21:41:59 <AnMaster> Oranjer, and javascript turned off
21:42:00 <ehird> keep fighting the good fight
21:42:03 <ehird> viva la revolucion!
21:42:06 <ehird> stick it to the man
21:42:06 <Oranjer> there's one thing to hate it but uh you are missing out a lot I would say
21:42:09 <ehird> tell us some more, this is practically erotica
21:42:25 <ehird> i was getting kinda tired of the once every two week thing hearing it, so
21:42:28 <Oranjer> I mean flash is like the best way to get games out there
21:42:32 <ehird> if you could deliver some flash/java/javascript related hate every day
21:42:33 <ehird> that would be just fine
21:43:12 <AnMaster> <Oranjer> in real quick time <-- quicktime movies can play in vlc at least
21:44:26 <Oranjer> it plays my downloaded movies and shows!
21:44:36 <Oranjer> yay copyright infringement
21:44:47 <AnMaster> it is just a fucking movie player
21:44:58 <ehird> AnMaster: also it is just a fucking flash player
21:45:09 <ehird> Oranjer: quicktime+perian bitch
21:45:50 <AnMaster> ehird, how is a flash plugin related to a standalone movie player?
21:46:01 <ehird> reading comprehension!
21:46:03 <Oranjer> http://lostgarden.com/2009/07/flash-love-letter-2009-part-1.html
21:46:04 <Oranjer> http://lostgarden.com/2009/08/flash-love-letter-2009-part-2.html
21:46:08 <Oranjer> here ya go that's all you need
21:46:12 <AnMaster> ehird, what you said made no sense
21:46:17 <ehird> i am pretty averse to clicking those links
21:46:24 <ehird> AnMaster: it did, you're just an idiot who can't understand context
21:47:13 <ehird> http://docs.google.com/File?id=dfd2pvnx_87f78mt7g7_b
21:47:19 <ehird> slightly less hot ghost
21:47:31 <ehird> barbershop-coloured remains of outline of ghost
21:48:07 <ehird> that is among many of the things that barbershop-coloured remains of outlines of ghosts cannot do
21:48:50 <Oranjer> those barbershop-colored remains of outlines of ghosts should take some pills or something
21:49:13 <ehird> also they cannot drink
21:49:19 <ehird> they do not have mouths
21:49:41 <ehird> no, they do not have solidity
21:49:43 <Oranjer> like some patches and sponges full of medico
21:50:07 <AnMaster> <Oranjer> those barbershop-colored remains of outlines of ghosts should take some pills or something
21:50:08 <Oranjer> CAN YOU PRAY FOR THE SOUL OF A LOST GHOST
21:50:20 <ehird> yeah just give Oranjer all the credit
21:50:51 <Oranjer> I would have said "merely red dashed", but ehird set a precedent
21:51:05 <fungot> Oranjer: of rather uneven fnord quality, but to those in the ward household it was overshadowed by the odour which instantly followed it; a hideous, fnord odour which non of them had come. ahead stretched double rows of pillars, and to
21:51:17 <ehird> http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1004/1424010678_52efa2603a.jpg
21:52:04 <AnMaster> ehird, err that pic makes no sense
21:52:06 <Oranjer> haha before I saw the hairpieces and wigs part I thought it was amazing that a barber could make a bald man have hair
21:52:20 <AnMaster> Oranjer, yeah what I just meant
21:52:37 <ehird> i was thinking that too
21:52:42 <Oranjer> you gotta go SEVERAL STEPS ahead or you will be lost
21:53:20 <Oranjer> http://lostgarden.com/2009/07/flash-love-letter-2009-part-1.html
21:53:20 <Oranjer> http://lostgarden.com/2009/08/flash-love-letter-2009-part-2.html
21:53:43 <Oranjer> mostly *to* flash developers, though
21:53:52 <Oranjer> but he talks about its potential and whatnot
21:54:24 <Oranjer> geez ehird I can't imagine what you would find interesting
21:54:39 <Oranjer> perhaps some mindless activity without any constructive results? :O
21:54:49 <ehird> esolangs, OSs, hci, concepts relating to thereof and derivatives
21:54:57 <ehird> all these things are acceptable
21:56:44 <fungot> Oranjer: fnord and inclined toward the amiable and innocuous phantasy of sir j. m. on train no. 5508, leaving bellows falls at fnord p.m. it ought, i calculated, to get up to arkham at least by the next century had become known as delapore.
22:00:43 <ehird> human-computer interaction
22:01:04 -!- immibis has joined.
22:01:28 <ehird> Oranjer: AnMaster was upset when he couldn't make kde 4 look like kde 2
22:01:34 <ehird> and they dropped an incredibly minor preference from the terminal application
22:01:44 <ehird> before a tornado engulfs this place!
22:01:56 <ehird> are you actually asking
22:02:01 <ehird> oh god i hate my life
22:02:19 <ehird> how old are you Oranjer you sure do use a lot of capital letters
22:02:19 <Oranjer> and because of your conduct, ehird, I refuse to google it
22:02:51 <AnMaster> Oranjer, yeah what is your age
22:02:58 * AnMaster suspects slightly older than ehird
22:03:26 <ehird> i was going to guess 30-something with mental disorder :)
22:03:41 <AnMaster> ehird, on the other hand you are not typical for your age
22:03:49 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
22:03:56 <ehird> the planet is populated with bitter 14-year-old intellectuals
22:04:00 <ehird> we're just plotting
22:04:03 <Rugxulo> ehird, how do I make the bot run a timed Befunge command?
22:04:05 <ehird> until the day comes
22:04:08 <ehird> Rugxulo: you don't
22:04:17 <ehird> to create our infernal machines
22:04:20 <ehird> of world domination, you see
22:04:21 <AnMaster> ehird, you are no longer 14 by then
22:04:31 <ehird> is where you are mistaken
22:04:35 <Rugxulo> well somebody run this and tell me how long it takes: "91+:*-:0`#@ #._"
22:04:36 <ehird> for we have stopped the aging process entirely
22:04:38 <ehird> MWAHAHIUWHAIUhiauwhiusdfghkjkl;l'
22:04:41 <Oranjer> oh hey I have heard of kde
22:05:22 <ehird> pol dns qos loga mt
22:05:25 <Rugxulo> `bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
22:05:46 <Oranjer> oh okay yeah it says "The developers' current stance is that the initialism no longer stands for anything specific."
22:06:31 <AnMaster> Oranjer, what was it originally?
22:06:48 <Oranjer> "XForms Common Environment"
22:07:00 <Oranjer> but the newer ones no longer use XForms, apparently
22:07:10 <Oranjer> why do flowers anger you so ehird
22:07:13 <Rugxulo> "X11 F*cks Computers Everywhere" ;-)
22:07:32 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XForms_%28toolkit%29
22:07:33 <ehird> X11 Flourishingly Craps Eggs
22:07:40 <ehird> Eggs of 80s legacy, you understand.
22:09:16 * Rugxulo coffs on ehird with an elf
22:09:22 <Oranjer> ehird, you stabbing people hardly proves you are not evil
22:09:31 <ehird> Don't do that again!
22:09:38 <ehird> A.out a.out a.out a.out AAAAAAAAA.OUT!
22:09:42 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, you fail at references
22:09:52 <Rugxulo> wasn't there a b.out? (forgets)
22:09:53 <ehird> AnMaster: "coffs on ehird with an elf"
22:09:53 <ehird> AnMaster: perhaps you do
22:10:04 <ehird> AnMaster: COFF, ELF
22:10:27 <ehird> so hhow is b.out symbolic of not getting it at all
22:10:27 <ehird> it's just a throwaway pun
22:10:33 <Rugxulo> hmmm, guess I thought of aoutb
22:11:17 <Oranjer> but like you people just love your Unix references huh
22:11:36 <AnMaster> Oranjer, because we all *use* unix more or less
22:11:39 <ais523> many of us use Unix/Linux
22:11:52 <Rugxulo> more or less? that is the question ...
22:12:01 <ais523> after all, this is a programming channel
22:12:07 <ehird> Asztal. Deewiant. that's two off the top of my head
22:12:17 <ehird> oh, i believe lifthrasiir too, though that's vaguer
22:12:28 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway Deewiant dual-boots
22:12:36 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, it does count
22:12:39 <ehird> because he's in it a good portion of the time
22:12:44 <ehird> oklopol also has ubuntu machines
22:12:56 <AnMaster> ehird, Deewiant uses linux most of the time nowdays iirc
22:12:59 <ehird> So, uh, maybe 51% of us use *nix
22:13:04 <ehird> But definitely not a vast majority
22:13:19 <ehird> oh, immibis probably does. that's just a guess though.
22:13:27 * Sgeo mostly only uses Linux when he wants to get on the web quickly
22:13:38 <Sgeo> Before I have to get ready to go to school, or some such
22:13:43 <Sgeo> Windows loads slowly
22:13:52 <ehird> Ah the simple mind of Sgeo
22:13:54 <AnMaster> Sgeo, even from suspend to disk?
22:14:08 <Rugxulo> you don't suspend to disk, you sleep/standby (or whatever they call it now)
22:14:15 <Sgeo> AnMaster, from hibernate is great
22:14:23 <Rugxulo> XP loads to GUI fast but isn't as usable right away (still has stuff to load)
22:14:25 <Sgeo> But I only started playing with that recently
22:14:28 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, um it is the same basically
22:14:48 <Rugxulo> no, one way keeps it in RAM, the other writes it to disk
22:15:00 <Sgeo> suspend to disk == hibernate
22:15:01 <AnMaster> HIBWHATEVER = SAME AS SUSPEND TO DISK
22:15:12 <Rugxulo> yes, but that's not the same as standby
22:15:22 <immibis> [10:13] <ehird> oh, immibis probably does. that's just a guess though.
22:15:30 <Rugxulo> AnMaster, you need ehird's cherry, then you won't be poppin' that Caps no mo'
22:15:48 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, it is supposed to be an additional ctrl
22:15:57 <AnMaster> so not sure what went wrong there
22:16:06 <Rugxulo> in Soviet Russia, Caps control YOU!!!
22:16:11 <immibis> i'm wondering how i got involved in that though...
22:16:13 <ehird> I JUST SLAMMED DOWN ON CAPS LOCK REALLY HARD
22:16:20 <ehird> immibis: listing the people who use windows in here.
22:16:28 <Rugxulo> ehird, don't bust yer cherry
22:16:38 <AnMaster> yeah we got to know who we should stalk
22:16:42 <Oranjer> ah geex I am sorry for mentioning OS's in a programming channel I will never do that again
22:16:58 <immibis> ↑ <-- what is this character?
22:17:36 * immibis hasn't been able to find a client that runs on windows, supports scripting, supports unicode, and is free
22:17:56 <AnMaster> immibis, xchat silverex edition?
22:18:01 <Rugxulo> surely one of those is scriptable
22:18:11 <immibis> xchat isn't free on windows though...
22:18:12 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, erc is... by definition
22:18:24 <Rugxulo> I figured as much (but never tried)
22:18:24 <ehird> chatzilla does those
22:18:24 <AnMaster> it is a free xchat for windows
22:18:41 <ehird> yes it is, nobody registers it.
22:18:46 <ehird> and it just bugs you for a few seconds
22:18:49 <Rugxulo> no, we've been over this before
22:18:57 <immibis> "Firefox prevented this site (addons.mozilla.org) from asking you to install software on your computer." <-- lol?
22:18:58 <Rugxulo> it used to be free (like ten years ago) but isn't anymore
22:19:21 <ehird> immibis: get the standalone
22:19:25 <ehird> chatzilla.rdmsoft.com or whatever
22:19:34 <ehird> Rugxulo: it just gives a nag screen
22:20:34 <AnMaster> ehird, there is a standalone chatzilla?
22:20:45 <ehird> nobody sane uses the browser plugin
22:20:50 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
22:20:53 <Rugxulo> HydraIRC is open source, supports DLL plugins, not sure if that qualifies as "scripting", though
22:21:14 <Rugxulo> then again, we ARE in #esoteric
22:21:22 <ais523> ehird: I used to use the browser plugin
22:21:27 <ais523> although that was rather unusual circumstances
22:21:31 <Oranjer> fungot what OS do you regularly use?
22:21:31 <fungot> Oranjer: by h. p. lovecraft and anna helen fnord
22:22:59 -!- immibis_ has joined.
22:23:13 -!- immibis has quit ("Not that there is anything wrong with that").
22:23:20 -!- immibis_ has changed nick to immibis.
22:23:48 <Rugxulo> ehird knows how to make it work
22:23:53 <Rugxulo> `befunge 51*.@ > /dev/null
22:23:56 <immibis> How can I make ChatZilla auto-identify?
22:24:21 -!- ehird has quit.
22:24:24 <Oranjer> should I learn befunge huh?
22:24:36 <Rugxulo> but 98 is too much, stick to 93
22:24:46 <Oranjer> what other languages should I learn simultaneously
22:24:57 <AnMaster> !befunge98 a"sey ,rejnarO">:#,_@
22:25:17 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, what do you think that should do?
22:25:37 <Rugxulo> eventually give me a number (I know it's slow) ;-)
22:25:37 <Oranjer> it looks like APL, in that it reads from right to left
22:25:54 <AnMaster> it reads in different directions
22:25:58 <Rugxulo> but it's not read from right to left, just sometimes it's easier to push strings backwards
22:26:01 <ais523> that particular program's going left to right
22:26:06 <ais523> just the string is written backwards
22:26:08 <Rugxulo> it can read up, down, left, right
22:26:14 <AnMaster> Oranjer, it is stack based though
22:26:23 <ais523> left and right are the only ones practical on IRC, though
22:26:28 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I don't care about 93
22:26:43 <Deewiant> !befunge98 <@_,#! #:<"Oranjer: other way around"a
22:26:43 <EgoBot> Oranjer: other way around
22:26:47 <AnMaster> the fastest 98-implementation until fizzie gets going on jitfunge
22:26:50 <Rugxulo> yes, I know, can't compile it
22:26:56 <ais523> and that program's going right-to-left
22:26:59 <ais523> so the string is /still/ backwards
22:27:01 <madbrain> http://www.ustream.tv/channel/altparty cray democompo live stream
22:27:09 <ais523> madbrain: are you a spambot
22:27:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that one sure was ugly
22:27:18 <ais523> if so, why are you in /this/ channel?
22:27:20 <Oranjer> madbrain noooooooooo spam please
22:27:28 <ais523> fungot: tell madbrain that he shouldn't be here
22:27:30 <fungot> ais523: there were veiled suggestions of a monstrous fnord but could not sleep, and whilst the squat yellow foe may be creeping silently upon us. i had encountered the thing it hinted at, was more than a fraction of lord dunsany's fnord fnord blackness of the shaft.
22:27:34 <Oranjer> how does it feel to be spammed madbrain
22:27:36 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Something wrong? :-P
22:27:49 <ais523> Oranjer: bots don't care if they're spammed
22:27:54 <ais523> clog will just be happily recording it all
22:28:01 <AnMaster> ais523, wasn't that were fizzie was too?
22:28:04 <Oranjer> I thought madbrain was a person
22:28:21 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Would you've preferred r #;>:#,_@; or something?
22:28:28 <AnMaster> ais523, pretty sure madbrain is *NOT* a bot
22:28:28 <ais523> hmm... madbrain claims to be on mir
22:28:44 <ais523> but liking mirc is enough of a reason to ban someone
22:28:56 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You don't like that fairly standard right-to-left string printer?
22:29:14 <Rugxulo> hmmm, wonder why the other query never returned :-P
22:29:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if it is, you are doing it wrong
22:30:01 <AnMaster> restructure your whole program around the strings
22:30:17 <Deewiant> That's not a sufficiently esolangy way of doing it
22:30:24 <Deewiant> What is this "structure" you speak of
22:30:33 <Deewiant> Befunge does not lend itself well to structure
22:30:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, modular block design
22:30:45 <Oranjer> I am looking for video Befunge Tutorials
22:30:47 <Deewiant> Well, it kinda does, but it's just not cool that way :-P
22:31:05 <Oranjer> does anyone know a of programming-language-tutorial making program?
22:31:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I have a hard time coding *un*structured
22:31:40 <ais523> I'm not sure if there are any good Befunge tutorials around
22:31:43 <Deewiant> Just put what you want to do next wherever your cursor is :-P
22:31:44 <ais523> it's one of the easier esolangs, though
22:32:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I end up writing a frigging design document for all befunge programs :(
22:32:27 <Deewiant> Just put 'em at (0,0) and nearby so they're quick to access
22:32:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how to remember what one was used where?
22:32:50 <Rugxulo> Oranjer, try ZBefunge under Frotz, that's a good way to learn
22:33:05 <Oranjer> "under Frotz" what does that mean
22:33:09 <Deewiant> If you have a lot, put a comment wherever you start using them
22:33:14 <Rugxulo> interactive fiction interpreter (Z machine)
22:33:53 <Deewiant> The TOYS test in Mycology is a good example of my Befunge commenting IIRC
22:34:03 <Deewiant> It's still completely unreadable
22:34:21 <ais523> this channel can be a good place to learn until people tell you off for spamming
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22:34:38 <Rugxulo> Oranjer, take a gander at this: http://board.flatassembler.net/topic.php?t=10599
22:34:45 -!- immibis has quit (Nick collision from services.).
22:34:45 <AnMaster> ais523, start thinking about feather please
22:34:56 <ais523> AnMaster: please don't, I'm busy enough as it is
22:35:00 <ais523> and more or less recovering from madness
22:35:03 <ais523> although, I have been slightly
22:35:03 -!- immibis_ has changed nick to immibis.
22:35:14 <ais523> e.g. I think my problems can be solved by a #?# operators
22:35:23 <ais523> which determines if an arbitrary object is # or not
22:35:45 <Rugxulo> it's plenty interesting unless you want really weird functionality
22:35:48 <ais523> 93 is so much easier to write an interp for than 98...
22:35:49 <Rugxulo> it's meant to be fun, not serious
22:36:05 <Deewiant> ais523: 93 is /too/ easy to write an interpreter for :-P
22:36:09 <Rugxulo> 98 seems like a joke on a joke, as in "lets be UNfun"
22:36:28 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: Hey, it's design by committee
22:36:30 <ais523> 98 is actually usable, 93 has too mayn aribtrary restricitons
22:36:49 <Rugxulo> dare I ask, but what have you written in 98 then?
22:36:58 <Rugxulo> anything useful or interesting?
22:37:06 <ais523> I don't use Befunge much
22:37:09 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, oh, a mine sweeper game. most of it. Not completely finished yet
22:37:23 <ais523> I wrote a Deadfish interp once, I forget which version of Befunge, maybe it worked in both
22:37:24 <Deewiant> Writing it is/was plenty of fun
22:38:09 <ais523> Esolang needs an article on Challenger
22:38:17 <Rugxulo> BTW, Deewiant, I suspect the official B93 interpreter only printed "0 1 " due to line buffering, it must've choked later on (obviously)
22:38:20 <ais523> that lang looks like a cross between Befunge and Sansism, atm
22:38:31 <ais523> AnMaster: it's mentioned behind Rugxulo's link
22:38:39 <Deewiant> Rugxulo: I'm surprised it even gave "0 1 " if it's line buffered
22:38:42 <Rugxulo> Challenger was inspired a bit by Befunge with Tomasz's flair to it
22:38:47 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Sansism
22:40:07 <Rugxulo> yes, he named it after the shuttle, dunno why
22:40:29 <Rugxulo> I guess he was gonna call it something related to 86 (a la 386) but '86 was the year of the crash, so ....
22:41:49 <Rugxulo> bah, if only mtve was actually here ... :-P
22:48:37 <Rugxulo> why? 'cause he's interested in Befunge, ETA, etc.
22:49:01 <Rugxulo> (my point is that he's here but not "here" here)
22:50:13 <Rugxulo> welp, if everyone is silent, guess I'll jet off
22:50:28 -!- Rugxulo has left (?).
22:50:30 <ais523> hmm... this channel isn't constantly active
22:50:33 <ais523> but it's nice when it's ontopic
22:55:08 <madbrain> how do you recreate the "chess" effect, ie a complex game with emergent properties from simple rules
23:07:38 <jix> madbrain: allow many choices and long term effect of them?
23:08:55 <jix> while allowing similar choices to have similar effects in the short term? (so it is possible to detect certain patterns)
23:09:05 <jix> would be my first attempt
23:09:58 <madbrain> I think it's a problem of how non-linear the choice space is pver time
23:10:37 <madbrain> if it's too non-linear it's hard for moves to have long term consequences and it esentially becomes a sort of flip choice game at the end
23:10:58 <madbrain> if it's too linear then making each choice and the game becomes too simple
23:21:14 <oerjan> so it's sort of that chaos = border betwen order and disorder thing...
23:21:53 <fax> madbrain: that's a great question
23:22:39 <oerjan> except a little closer to order, so humans have a chance to grasp it
23:42:39 <Ilari> Just like in CA there's thin line seperating patterns that shrink from those that expand... :-)
23:44:05 * Sgeo vaguely wants to learn how to write an Operating System
23:46:06 <oerjan> Ilari: and a thin line of those CAs that have complicated behavior at your thin line, iirc
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23:55:22 <SimonRC> Sgeo: there are wikis about it
23:55:31 <SimonRC> you could start from something that already exists
23:55:32 <Sgeo> SimonRC, I'm reading OSDev right now
23:55:42 <SimonRC> e.g. a colorForth derivative
23:56:09 <SimonRC> or a retroForth derivative