00:17:34 <fizzie> The Cray stuff and the dynamic demo stuff was a bit of a disappointment; the actual alternative demo compo wasn't that bad, though. At least not everything in it.
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00:29:33 <fungot> Oranjer: i could not fnord refrain from telling what i found was only this that the horses had become utterly frightful, and i therefore read long in the dark. there is little in common between garrulous country folk and a paralytic who cannot see, hear, or speak to them it may be that he also had distinct affections amongst the other cats in other parts of the
00:44:19 <oklopol> i'm going to close my eyes now, though
00:46:28 <oerjan> -> -> <- <- -> -> -> <-<-<-
00:47:13 <oerjan> deutsche demokratische republik
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02:04:14 <oerjan> eek backwards time travel!
02:27:43 <Ilari> Just messing with time. Wonder what stories will appear in RISKS this time...
03:48:38 <Ilari> Hmm... On password hall of shame, one site is described as: "Permits only alphanumeric characters; passwords are case-insensitive; limits passwords to 20 characters". Hmm... Doesn't sound that bad to me.
03:51:23 <madbrain> that's like, the sort of limitations real people have
03:54:54 <Ilari> Entropy: ~103 bits. The strongest passwords I have had where ~59 bits...
04:00:21 <Ilari> Case-insenstive alphanum racks ~5.17 bits of entropy per symbol. Printable ASCII racks ~6.57 (~6.55 without space). Couple extra symbols make up the difference. 11 symbol alphanum case-insensitive password is stronger than 8 symbol full printable ASCII.
04:09:03 <Ilari> Heh... Unicode 5.2 adds some Egyptian Hieroglyphs..
04:14:44 <Ilari> Also lots of SAMARITAN, CANADIAN SYLLABICS, TAI THAM, VEDIC, LISU, BAMUM, JAVANESE, TAI VIET, MEETEI MAYEK, IMPERIAL ARAMAIC, OLD SOUTH ARABIAN, AVESTAN, INSCRIPTIONAL PAHLAVI, OLD TURKIC, KAITHI stuff.
04:16:00 <fungot> Asztal: you want all space eliminated, than to wait for
04:25:06 <Ilari> Why it seems that all more serious "sudden acceleration" cases involve cars with automatic transmission and start buttons?
04:26:46 <coppro> Maybe because they don't tend to have a mechanical safety mechanism to prevent the card from starting in anything but park?
04:26:59 <Ilari> (might have something to do with clutch disconnecting engine from wheels, and traditional ignition key lock being able to mechanically disconnect ignition power...)
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04:27:42 <coppro> (Interesting fact: I have a tendency to park slightly uphill, meaning I sometimes don't discover I haven't started the car until halfway out of the parking stall, wondering where the power steering went)
04:31:07 <Ilari> Reminds me of that one incident when my father parked car in quite steep downhill. He then got the idea that since there is barrier ahead that needs to be moved anyway, he's going to release the brakes and roll to that barrier without starting engine...
04:31:35 <Ilari> That didn't go very well...
04:32:10 <coppro> also, this is pretty funny, even if you don't play Magic: http://magiclampoon.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Thran-Generator.gif
04:32:43 <Ilari> (no brake power assist => almost no brakes).
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04:36:20 <Ilari> Also, malfunctioning ABS can kill brakes pretty efficiently...
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04:39:12 <Ilari> The standard automatic transmission interlock prevents shifting out of park without brakes being held...
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04:43:13 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
04:43:23 <fungot> Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books)
04:45:30 <coppro> fungot, what color is the librarian?
04:45:31 <fungot> coppro: ' what's happening?" he said.
04:46:14 <Oranjer> fungot, that's not an appropriate answer
04:46:14 <fungot> Oranjer: ' what about those?' she said.
04:46:29 <Oranjer> fungot, are all of discworld's quotes actual quotes?
04:46:31 <fungot> Oranjer: " the sea, and birds, and magical leakage, which has far too many dimensions for anyone to find their niche. they'd welcomed him, or them, rather. they seemed to think that i just used to build sweat lodges and smell like a blacksmith's armpit and drink scumble and dance around the fire with horns on and piss in the trees,
04:47:01 <Ilari> bsmntbombdood: That interlock? Well, prevent that incident that gave Audi the backronym "Accelerates Under Demonic Influence": 1D10T pressing gas instead of brake until the car crashes...
04:47:49 <bsmntbombdood> people have driven cars with manual transmissions with no such interlock for ages
04:48:17 <oerjan> i thought we already established all the finns were AIs. or was that the swedes...
04:48:44 <coppro> oerjan: Probably the swedes
04:48:53 <coppro> fungot, describe the Great A'tuin
04:48:54 <fungot> coppro: " um," said carrot. " i thought perhaps the food-tasters were getting fnord and fnord
04:49:07 <coppro> hmm... Pretty sure fnord isn't discworld
04:49:10 <Oranjer> dammit all that fnord is clogging up the results
04:49:20 <Oranjer> I think fnord is just fungot
04:49:21 <fungot> Oranjer: ' they weren't real,' she said wearily.
04:50:17 <oerjan> yep, fnord is used to replace any word that only exists once in the corpus
04:50:24 <Ilari> bsmntbombdood: It might also have something to do with pedal layout of that Audi...
04:59:01 <madbrain> the programming equivalent of "mu" is a page fault
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05:15:17 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/Fypvj.jpg ^^Actually, this was in Gregor's Facebook stuff
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10:18:33 <fizzie> I haven't fnorded every corpus, but what oerjan said applies to most of them.
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13:23:27 * AnMaster has been reading a changelog containing lots of odd typos. Like "breath search" instead of "breadth search"
13:24:01 <oerjan> breath search is performed _entirely_ through whooshes, me thinks
13:25:19 <AnMaster> I suspect "chanhing" is meant to be "changing" though. "grphics" is probably "graphics". And "chnages" looks somewhat interesting too.
13:26:26 <AnMaster> oerjan, what about the extra h though (if you referred to "chanhing")
13:26:38 <oklopol> yeah grphics is *probably* graphics, could be tons of other stuff too.
13:26:52 <oerjan> always grope your hics
13:26:53 <AnMaster> oerjan: "ADD: ambient sound effects (for all grphics + forest + beaches)"
13:27:02 <AnMaster> oklopol, ambient sound effects for grphics?
13:28:11 <AnMaster> oh and "goods" was typoed as "gods" in one place. Routing algorithms for gods, hm?
13:29:33 <AnMaster> even if you ignore the typos the grammar are in many entries quite awkward.
13:29:41 <oerjan> just as long as they don't route it through a hyperspace bypass
13:30:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh I think they fixed the bug where you could create a tunnel *over* water some versions ago.
13:31:58 <oerjan> that's discriminatory toward underground oceans!
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13:59:01 <Rugxulo> negative remainders ... what would be the use of that? (e.g. Befunge)
14:40:59 <Rugxulo> you ever used negative remainers?
14:41:46 <AnMaster> isn't it undefined in befunge what happens with negative arguments
14:41:57 <AnMaster> there is the fingeprint MODU with some specified variants
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15:08:20 <oklopol> what are negative remainders?
15:09:30 <Rugxulo> I guess from mod (%)'ding a negative number
15:09:58 <oklopol> i even often need mod for floating point numbers
15:10:06 <Rugxulo> I don't really know, I just noticed some remark from Jeffrey Long's fungus test suite
15:11:01 <oklopol> but (mod z) should always reduce the number between [0, z), basically find a representative for x + z*Z from that inteval... the remainder should never be negative
15:11:29 <Rugxulo> hmmm, official handles it okay, so it must be a bug in one I'm using
15:11:41 <fizzie> oklopol: That is a matter of taste, really; Scheme, for example, defines both "modulo" and "remainder", with different behaviour for negative arguments.
15:12:25 <oklopol> fizzie: haven't really seen a use case for negative remainders
15:12:47 <oklopol> i just want "reduce to interval"
15:12:55 <oklopol> well, reduce onto interval maybe
15:13:08 <oklopol> if that interval is different for negatives, well, that's just stupid
15:13:18 <oklopol> but, probably there are use cases if scheme does that
15:13:42 <oklopol> cuz, well, i hear scheme is pretty awesome
15:14:11 <fizzie> oklopol: The "remainder" is defined the way it is so that (= n1 (+ (* n2 (quotient n1 n2)) (remainder n1 n2))) is #t for every integer n1, n2 as long as n2 is not zero.
15:16:28 <oklopol> i suppose that makes sense
15:16:34 <oklopol> and modulo is the reduction thingie
15:17:20 <fizzie> Yes; (modulo n1 n2) always has the same sign as n2.
15:17:26 <oklopol> well i don't suppose that, that is the superior way; for quotient, negatives and positives should be treated symmetrically, so there needs to be a function that gives you the sensible remainder.
15:19:01 <oklopol> i hate how complicated trivial things are
15:19:22 <Rugxulo> BTW, I forget the name, but Pressey's site has a really small Scheme subset that can compile itself
15:24:07 <fizzie> I guess you mean http://catseye.tc/projects/pixley/doc/pixley.html
15:24:20 <fizzie> "minimal subset of Scheme that was still expressive enough to permit writing a Pixley interpreter without too much pain"
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15:37:51 <ehird> 14:28:35 <ais523> AnMaster: maybe
15:37:52 <ehird> 14:28:44 <ais523> but liking mirc is enough of a reason to ban someone
15:37:53 <ehird> that's an uncommonly assholish and idiotic statement coming from you.
15:38:05 <ehird> the thing madbrain linked to was talked about earlier by fizzie, FYI
15:39:06 <ehird> 14:34:21 <ais523> this channel can be a good place to learn until people tell you off for spamming
15:39:06 <ehird> Preoccupied with something, are we?
15:39:55 <ehird> 14:35:23 <AnMaster> befunge93 is not interesting
15:39:55 <ehird> you is not not an idiot for saying thatt
15:41:31 <Rugxulo> there's a Befunge93 interpreter plugin for mIRC
15:41:58 <ehird> 15:55:32 <Sgeo> SimonRC, I'm reading OSDev right now
15:41:58 <ehird> i'm almost entirely sure you do not have the prerequisite knowledge.
15:43:14 <Rugxulo> there are some really really simple OSes out there, though
15:43:39 <ehird> Thanks for that. Totally irrelevant.
15:44:30 <ehird> You'd be good at word association, I see.
15:49:17 <ehird> 21:15:17 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/Fypvj.jpg ^^Actually, this was in Gregor's Facebook stuff
15:49:18 <ehird> You have a stalker, Gregor!
15:50:03 <Rugxulo> it says "sale" but do they mean use?
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16:02:09 <oklopol> ehird: say one good thing about someone, right now.
16:02:26 <ehird> i like you oklopol
16:02:42 <ehird> i'm twitching now, I think it's a stroke!
16:02:48 <oklopol> :)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
16:03:16 <oklopol> HEHEEEHEEEHEEHHEEHEEHHEHHEHHEEHHEEEEEHHEEHEEHHH
16:03:19 <oklopol> HEHEEEHEEEHEEHHEEHEEHHEHHEHHEEHHEEEEEHHEEHEEHHH
16:03:19 <oklopol> HEHEEEHEEEHEEHHEEHEEHHEHHEHHEEHHEEEEEHHEEHEEHHH
16:03:19 <oklopol> HEHEEEHEEEHEEHHEEHEEHHEHHEHHEEHHEEEEEHHEEHEEHHH
16:03:19 <oklopol> HEHEEEHEEEHEEHHEEHEEHHEHHEHHEEHHEEEEEHHEEHEEHHH
16:03:25 <ehird> okokokokokokokokokjkokokokookkokoo
16:04:00 <ehird> okokokokokokokpkokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
16:04:00 <ehird> perfect apart from that p
16:04:12 <oklopol> shit, i need to go outside :<
16:04:26 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
16:04:34 <oklopol> perfect apart from nothing
16:04:57 <ehird> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokookokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
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16:30:08 <ehird> now there's something I haven't heard before (someone claiming that Apple's advertising means that anyone who considers Macs easier or smoother to use is *under a placebo effect*_
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17:25:33 <Jakepii> ehh... esoteric programming... not esoteric/occcult philosophy then... :P
17:26:01 <ehird> You worked it out without us telling you!
17:26:26 <ehird> Obviously the average person interested in the latter doesn't trust deductive reasoning enough to figure it out...
17:26:37 <Slereah> It's so much fun when they don't
17:26:40 <ehird> Slereah: I know, right? :(
17:26:46 <ehird> Jakepii: Sacrifice a goat anyway.
17:27:02 <Slereah> WE CONJURE THE SPIRITS OF COMPUTERS WITH OUR SPELLS
17:27:12 <Slereah> Isn't the cover of SICP pretty esoteric?
17:27:24 <ehird> Mystical parentheses.
17:30:05 <Jakepii> ok, but what the hell is esoteric programming?
17:30:24 <ehird> How did you figure it out from just this room?
17:30:32 <ehird> Jakepii: ever heard of brainfuck?
17:31:35 <ehird> Your silence is stunning.
17:32:05 <Jakepii> i'm just trying to figure out all your output.
17:32:22 <ehird> funny, that's what the average esolanger does.
17:32:37 <ehird> Jakepii: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language
17:33:16 <ehird> tl;dr a deliberately pathological programming language, intended either for our amusement or to explore new language-design ideas; often purposefully over-minimal
17:33:26 <ehird> often designed deliberately to be hard or frustrating to use
17:33:33 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/ is us. http://esolangs.org/wiki/
17:33:48 <ehird> hmm, that still redirects to the voxelperfect mirror
17:33:52 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
17:34:43 <Jakepii> aha ok. interesting stuff but not exactly what i'm looking for right now. Thank you all for these enlightening moments
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17:35:08 <ehird> what I love is the massive barrier between us and then
17:35:47 <ehird> esolanging is a logic-based pursuit that requires a good amount of intellect and reasoning (to make a good one, that is)
17:35:50 <ehird> or even to use one
17:36:33 <ehird> esoteryck magyck is just meaningless context-free bullshit thrown together until it seems vaguely aesthetically pleasing, then accepted as dogma until someone decides that it isn't unmeaningful enough
17:42:57 <ehird> My blinds are mown.
17:43:09 <AnMaster> ehird, they grow grass or something?
17:43:19 <ehird> I have to mow them.
17:43:24 <AnMaster> ehird, cool. Where can I get some
17:43:33 <ehird> Every day, oh look at my blinds... better go blow my minds
17:43:36 <ehird> I mean mow my blinds
17:43:55 <AnMaster> ehird, interesting use of plural there :D
17:44:13 <ehird> I was just pointing out my spoonerism due to the rather high chance you didn't get it.
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17:45:37 <ehird> coppro: why'd cwalker ragequit?
17:46:46 <ehird> i like eir deregistration email
17:47:01 <AnMaster> I guess this is about some nomic?
17:47:16 <ehird> clue is in the spivak
17:48:01 <ehird> Yes, but 90% of everyone stopped giving a shit about B after they took Agora's ruleset and made it crappier.
17:48:09 <AnMaster> spivak hm... Could it possibly mean "speak" or "speech" or such? (thus refer to the non-standard words used)
17:48:23 <ehird> Michael Spivak, mathematician.
17:48:32 <ehird> In his books, used e/eir/etc pronouns for gender neutrality.
17:48:41 <ehird> Said someone else invented them, but didn't know the name.
17:48:47 <ehird> So they're Spivak pronouns.
17:49:06 <AnMaster> that story sounds familiar now that you mention it
17:49:22 <ehird> emself or eirself, who knows, nobody's said it
17:49:32 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spivak_pronoun
17:49:36 <ehird> we use spivak (original)
17:49:37 <coppro> also, rofl at BobTHJ threatening to quit over a repeal of random stuff
17:49:51 <ehird> coppro: random stuff that he helped shape, he says
17:49:54 <coppro> /almost/ makes me actually want to repeal cards
17:49:58 <ehird> surely by now you know he's an authoritarian egotist?
17:50:06 <coppro> ehird: sure. Doesn't make it unfunny
17:50:21 <ehird> my repeal proposal is better because it's more fun :(
17:50:34 <coppro> highly scammable too :D
17:50:38 <ehird> [[The original pronoun set was not created by me. I think I read about it in a newspaper clipping, perhaps from the Boston Globe, during the time I taught at Brandeis, and I believe it was credited to an anthropologist; later on, when I wanted to use it, I was unable to locate the source. In "The Joy of TeX", I wrote "Numerous approaches to this problem have been suggested, but one strikes me as particularly simple and sensible." I assumed people would figu
17:50:38 <ehird> I was using a construction I couldn't properly credit, and not consider me so immodest as to praise my own invention (though I guess that was a rather immodest assumption).]] — Spivak
17:50:47 <ehird> coppro: erm, only if you have enough friends
17:51:00 <ehird> i.e., yes, if you have a bunch of partners in crime, you can repeal a bunch of stuff... you could also use a proposal
17:51:06 <ehird> admittedly it makes it AI 1 instead of AI 2, so to speak
17:51:13 <ehird> but really, that's not a huge thing
17:51:38 <coppro> ehird: but the thing is that this rule could easily erase half of a collection of rules
17:51:45 <coppro> and leave the rest scammable
17:51:57 <ehird> but not majorly scammable, I don't think
17:52:03 <ehird> it'd be fun chaos for a bit, but the game would go on
17:52:41 <ehird> and murphy would spend hours detailing the effects of appealing various lists of rules before and after :P
17:53:54 <ehird> coppro: think it'll pass with the typo? without?
17:54:07 <ehird> i figure it'd cause people to vote against it, but i like it
17:54:14 <coppro> ehird: I'd be fine with the typo personally, and I'll vote
17:54:23 <coppro> remember to play around with Chamber
17:54:33 <ehird> ugh, i have to learn that shit?
17:54:44 <ehird> i've been practicing the policy of totally ignoring chamber card blogosphere automatics
17:55:15 <coppro> there are three Titles and three Chambers, being red, green, and purple
17:55:15 <ehird> anyway, do you think it'll haev more of a chance of passing iwth the typo? methinks so
17:55:21 <coppro> it's like rock-paper-scissors
17:55:27 <coppro> ehird: maybe. Not hugely
17:55:43 <ehird> 'cause at AI 2, this is pretty tenuous anyway
17:57:43 <coppro> ehird: distrib-u-matic?
17:57:55 <ehird> Oh yeah, we can't submit proposals freely.
17:58:13 <ehird> I guess I really did turn my mind off to Agora when it started sucking
17:58:21 <ehird> coppro: I don't even know if I have one, what're the reports titled?
17:59:04 <coppro> ehird: hang on, I have an Anarchist database right now
17:59:46 <ehird> It's like Christmas!
18:00:02 <ehird> coppro: does that elevating-as-separate-action-then-tallying-the-elevations actually work? I wouldn't be arsed to make any state
18:00:26 <ehird> elevating a rule doesn't change anything, it's a no-op action
18:00:31 <ehird> then the rule picks the rules elevated most
18:00:45 <ehird> I'm just wondering if that works or if I have to keep track of the elevations e.g. as a part of the rule
18:00:49 <ehird> because, you know, legalistic assholes
18:01:05 <coppro> Nope. Agora's platonic gamestate includes whether or not a rule has been elevated
18:01:11 <coppro> in theory nothing needs a tracker
18:01:29 <ehird> it's not whether or not it has been elevated, it's how many times :)
18:01:38 <coppro> how many times as well
18:01:45 <coppro> The game is all-knowing
18:01:54 <ehird> auuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuum
18:02:00 <coppro> it's just a question of whether its players are ;)
18:02:15 <coppro> incidentally, I'm about to make 10+ proposals distributable!
18:02:50 <ehird> anyway, time to make it distributable
18:03:00 <ehird> who wants to bet that ais523 will intend to make it undistributable?
18:03:02 <coppro> btw, ehird, are you active?
18:03:04 <ehird> failing that, BobTHJ?
18:03:18 <ehird> nobody deactivated me, unless it was in the 200 messages I didn't read
18:03:34 <ehird> can you submit proposals while inactive?
18:03:34 <coppro> I think I did as part of my clout win
18:04:00 <ehird> "I spend one Distribu-o-Matic to make this proposal distributable." this is the syntax right>?
18:04:17 <ehird> btw it should be Distrib-o-matic
18:04:23 <ehird> clearly someone never tried to pronounce it
18:07:51 <coppro> btw, we need more officers
18:07:55 <coppro> in particular, a Promotor would be nice
18:08:16 <ehird> Oh, I would like to have an office. But Promotor is too linked to our current broken distributability rap.
18:08:24 <ehird> And everyone distrusts me :P
18:10:08 <coppro> Distributability isn't broken right now
18:10:13 <coppro> damaged, maybe, but not broken
18:10:19 <coppro> propose to repeal it; I'll vote FOR
18:11:16 <ehird> I don't like the idea.
18:11:43 <ehird> The solution to "TOO MANY PROPOSALS AAH MY BRAIN" isn't "high barrier to using the actual nomic part of the game, and have it easy for people to stop it being distributable to boot"
18:11:52 <ehird> It's "promote more moderation"
18:12:30 <coppro> ok, then let's do that by repealing Distributability
18:13:35 <ehird> But people would take it as "ROLLLLLLLL IN THE PROPOSALS".
18:13:45 <ehird> Let's do it vai my crazy repealing proposal! :P
18:13:46 <coppro> sure, for about a week
18:14:12 <coppro> you only have 7 hours go
18:14:45 <coppro> ehird: to submit before this week's distribution comes due
18:15:04 <ehird> I don't wanna detract the focus from my crazy repealing :)
18:15:10 <ehird> Actually, I should vote for both your proposal and mine
18:15:20 <coppro> fine. I'll propose; you Distrib-u-Matic it?
18:15:22 <ehird> Although that'd result in over 50 rules being repealed
18:15:41 <ehird> I'm not too interested in individual repeal proposals right now.
18:15:44 <ehird> There's a lot more cruft in the game than just that.
18:16:09 <coppro> ehird: yes. But a lot of things (like Distributability) need to be removed with a scalpel, not an axe
18:16:25 <ehird> But the scalpel comes after! :-P
18:16:32 <coppro> we can do both at once
18:16:40 <coppro> there are some 20-odd different repeal proposals in the Pool
18:16:43 <ehird> (If my repealer gets through, you bet that the 20 repeals will shortly turn into 30 to clean everything up.)
18:17:33 <ehird> Can you transfer cards? I am an ascetic. :P
18:20:09 <coppro> I'll pay the going rate in zm if you like
18:20:21 <ehird> I don't believe in the IBA
18:21:53 <coppro> you should, it's pretty awesome
18:22:13 <ehird> Any bank based on the same basic rate-setting as the RBoA is one I won't support.
18:22:35 <coppro> what sort of rate-setting do you want?
18:22:42 <ehird> Someone should make a bank based on the PBA's ideal, considering that the final text of the PBA was, uh, free-market capitalism.
18:23:09 <ehird> coppro: based on market activity, scarcity...
18:23:34 <coppro> ehird: the IBA is in theory - or would be, if comex bothered to update it ever
18:23:52 <ehird> I guess I hallucinate those manual rate chhanges.
18:39:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined.
18:44:08 <AnMaster> "would fig <ehird> I was" <-- your client line breaks strangely
18:44:41 <ehird> It does not account for some length, I think; the hostname, perhaps.
18:44:51 <ehird> And if you have the +/- thing enabled, obviously that adds a character.
18:45:17 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah but that was indeed more than just one char cut off
18:50:01 <ehird> AnMaster: how small did you get that kernel?
18:51:59 <AnMaster> ehird, mine? Same as I said last time yesterday. Didn't bother to continue after that
18:53:20 <AnMaster> apperently I compiled your kernel last
18:53:33 * AnMaster runs make clean, copies his .config and runs make
18:53:47 <ehird> I'm way too lazy to make a Linux VM :(
18:54:01 <ehird> to actually compile mine
18:54:35 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:56:02 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:56:10 <AnMaster> ehird, too busy with irl stuff to actually compile your
18:56:59 -!- adam_d__ has changed nick to adam_d.
19:00:32 <AnMaster> ehird, that is what I'm too busy IRL to do yes
19:00:48 <ehird> Too busy to compile my.
19:00:57 <ehird> You fail at grammar, btw.
19:01:17 <ehird> "too busy with irl stuff to actually compile your" is not a sentence.
19:01:46 <AnMaster> And why should I care? It is IRC.
19:01:56 <AnMaster> And no, that is not a good reason :P
19:02:27 <ehird> The sad thing is that you probably started both of those sentences with and in some ludicrous attempt to make me mad...
19:03:35 <ehird> Wah, there were three sentences
19:03:37 <AnMaster> only remembered it by the second one :P
19:03:54 <AnMaster> ehird, good catch. But no I didn't mean that either :P
19:15:52 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory.
19:30:49 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
19:35:57 <ehird> WHO IS EVEN A PERSON
19:38:50 <ehird> YOUR FACE MAKES NO SENSE
19:39:23 <Rugxulo> THAT'S NOT WHAT YOUR MOM SAID
19:39:51 <Rugxulo> also, don't forget to respect your elders ;-)
19:42:08 <ehird> but then I'd have to stop flinging shit at everyone in here
19:42:10 <ehird> and what would I do then
19:43:32 <SimonRC> ehird: fucking keyboards tends to break them
19:43:47 <ehird> ohh, I thought you were making a reference to mechanical keyswitches yesterday, since the same Cherry makes most of them and I'm looking for a high-quality keyboard
19:43:51 <ehird> um how did you know
19:43:55 <ehird> yes this keyboard is made by cherry
19:44:07 <ehird> wait, how do you know this?
19:44:40 <SimonRC> force and sticky liquids are bad enough on their own, never mind together
19:44:54 <ehird> why have you... thought about this, SimonRC
19:45:07 <SimonRC> it took maybe a second to do so
19:45:47 <ehird> keyboards don't even have any appropriate holes.
19:45:52 <ehird> IT IS A NONSENSICAL TOPIC
19:58:40 <AnMaster> ehird, at least your mom does!
19:58:59 <ehird> It isn't even unfunny.
19:59:33 <ehird> It isn't anything.
20:00:18 * AnMaster ponders doing a "your mom" on that line, but decides not to
20:00:42 <ehird> Your mom is fat. Also a whore.
20:01:35 <Deewiant> Instead of just a plain loud snap
20:01:53 <AnMaster> like, when you can take a nap and know no one will shoot at you.
20:03:13 <ehird> Doesn't that require omniscience
20:03:43 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah that is probably why it isn't very common
20:06:15 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
20:12:06 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
20:12:39 <ehird> Virtual machines are such fun.
20:15:08 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, does that 300 KiB kernel of yours boot? :)
20:16:22 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't have time to test it. Nor do I now
20:16:35 <AnMaster> and computer is turned off and in my backpack already
20:18:54 <Deewiant> Stop peeing all over the place
20:18:57 <ehird> did it really just install gnu emacs 20
20:18:57 <AnMaster> ehird, what was that? space space space ... [0010] ...?
20:19:06 <ehird> i'm spacing all over the place!
20:19:16 <ehird> that mastodon linux distro thing! trying with another vm
20:19:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes just showed what my client showed it as
20:20:10 <Deewiant> irssi shows it as an inverted P
20:20:21 <Deewiant> ehird emits those every now and then.
20:20:47 <SimonRC> I can't figure out how to get irssi to put arbitrary control characters into things
20:22:01 <SimonRC> hmm, ^J and ^M do the same thing
20:24:00 <SimonRC> some control chars self-insert
20:24:13 <SimonRC> some appear to self insert but do special things
20:24:19 <SimonRC> and some are emacs-like commands
20:26:33 <ehird> a society ruled by bears
20:27:36 <ehird> but mine is a pun :(
20:33:28 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:38:20 <oerjan> <ehird> hmm, that still redirects to the voxelperfect mirror <-- i don't think that's a mirror, just an alternative hostname?
20:41:20 <AnMaster> ehird, btw can you compile recent 2.6 kernels with gcc 3.x any longer?
20:47:31 <ehird> oerjan: if you turned into a mansion, how would that affect your daily life? social?
20:47:31 <ehird> fuck, there goes my 1 GB
20:47:47 <oerjan> ehird: less restaurant visits
20:48:21 <oerjan> maybe i could invite people, should be an improvement
20:50:09 <oerjan> i think it _could_ be an improvement overall
20:51:41 -!- calamari has joined.
20:51:46 <oerjan> seems underscore is identical to underlining on this terminal
20:52:28 <oerjan> once_more _with feeling_
20:53:02 <SimonRC> irssi attempts to turn underscores into unining sometimes
20:53:19 <SimonRC> otherwise you can use ctrl-_ to turn underlining on and off
20:53:19 <ehird> oerjan: and how would your family feel about this?
20:53:19 <ehird> would you feel pressure to spend time with more house-like peers?
20:53:19 <ehird> Or perhaps just the mansionic?
20:53:19 <oerjan> yes, that's what i was testing
20:53:24 <ehird> oerjan: invite people into yourself?
20:53:26 <ehird> this is a pg-13 channel, oerjan.
20:53:28 <ehird> now back to the topic of you turning into a mansion
20:54:09 <oerjan> i guess i cannot be sure irssi doesn't use underlining for _all_ underscores
20:54:30 <ehird> ugh, connection is lagging
20:55:02 <ehird> will disconnect soon :(
20:55:29 <oerjan> hm i cannot see any difference from an underscore in a shell either
20:56:20 <oerjan> ehird: it's hard to spend time with house-like peers if you cannot move
20:57:08 <oerjan> and a mansion is isolated per definition isn't it
20:57:34 <HackEgo> * sign of the zodiac: (astrology) one of 12 equal areas into which the zodiac is divided \ * a large and imposing house \ [22]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
20:58:35 <oerjan> i am of course assuming i still have access to broadband... cannot make it _too_ horror-like either...
20:59:15 * SimonRC recalls a sketch parodying every makeover program at once
20:59:35 <ehird> that _was_ on topic just appeared
20:59:45 <SimonRC> they made over a 35yo bachelour into a lovely georgian mansion
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20:59:50 <oerjan> although i guess there are dual mansions
21:00:41 <ehird> up to simonrc slooow
21:00:41 <ehird> did my thing about house-like peers appear when oerjan said that?
21:00:41 <ehird> cause damn, i said it ages earlier
21:01:54 <oerjan> either ehird is not responding to pings or he is horribly lagged
21:02:09 <oerjan> and if he doesn't respond to pings than he _deserves_ it *MWAHAHAHA*
21:04:41 <ehird> seems my connection has finally died..
21:05:59 <ehird> secrets about ducks
21:06:09 <SimonRC> anyone here use thunderbird?
21:07:29 <ehird> THEY ARE QUIZZICALLY LOOKING AT YOUR HOUSE
21:07:29 <ehird> (this pong may be delayed due to stupid ISPness)
21:07:29 <ehird> [20:06] oerjan: ehird: no
21:07:31 <ehird> [20:06] oerjan: either ehird is not responding to pings or he is horribly lagged
21:07:33 <ehird> [20:06] oerjan: and if he doesn't respond to pings than he _deserves_ it *MWAHAHAHA*
21:07:35 <ehird> [20:06] oerjan: *then
21:07:37 <ehird> [20:06] oerjan: ehird: ping
21:07:41 <ehird> Deewiant: Yep what
21:09:05 <ehird> Tell me when you receive "20:07"; I sent it as soon as the clock hit 20:08, pretty much
21:09:05 <ehird> (Tell me as in the time)
21:09:16 <Deewiant> 2009-10-25 22:08:36 ( ehird) 20:07
21:09:34 <ehird> So we're down to sub-minute lag? (20:09)
21:09:35 <oerjan> irssi doesn't show seconds
21:09:37 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:09:45 <Deewiant> It does if you configure it to.
21:09:46 <SimonRC> oerjan: it does if you set the right variable
21:09:50 <oerjan> ehird: that's what my 20 seconds meant
21:10:46 <SimonRC> see "/set timestamp" for useful suggestions
21:11:33 <oerjan> well i won't, it would use up 3 chars of my precious visible left overlapped window estate
21:12:29 <SimonRC> how about removing the colons to compensate?
21:12:41 <ehird> (Received what you said at 20:09 too)
21:12:41 <ehird> [20:10] Deewiant: 2009-10-25 22:08:36 ( ehird) 20:07
21:12:58 <oerjan> how about not really caring?
21:13:24 <Deewiant> As you can see, my irssi timestamp is 20 characters, including the trailing space. :-P
21:13:25 <ehird> [20:13] oerjan: irssi doesn't show seconds
21:13:44 <oerjan> ehird: up to 4 minutes again :(
21:13:55 <oerjan> i guess it's highly fluctuating
21:14:36 <ehird> [20:13] Sgeo joined the chat room.
21:14:36 <ehird> [20:13] Deewiant: It does if you configure it to.
21:14:36 <ehird> [20:13] SimonRC: oerjan: it does if you set the right variable
21:14:36 <ehird> [20:13] oerjan: ehird: that's what my 20 seconds meant
21:14:36 <ehird> [20:13] SimonRC: see "/set timestamp" for useful suggestions
21:14:38 <ehird> Do what I do, have the timestamps at the right side.
21:14:40 <ehird> (Note: irssi may SUCK TOO MUCH to do this.)
21:15:32 <oerjan> ehird: won't work, i also use the timestamps to get an idea how long the channel has been silent
21:15:44 <ehird> [20:14] oerjan: how about not really caring?
21:16:04 <ehird> [20:14] Deewiant: As you can see, my irssi timestamp is 20 characters, including the trailing space. :-P
21:16:04 <ehird> [20:15] oerjan: ehird: up to 4 minutes again :(
21:16:04 <ehird> [20:15] oerjan: i guess it's highly fluctuating
21:16:34 <SimonRC> ehird: have you tried connecting to a different irc server?
21:16:36 <ehird> [20:13] ehird: Do what I do, have the timestamps at the right side.
21:16:36 <ehird> [20:13] ehird: (Note: irssi may SUCK TOO MUCH to do this.)
21:16:36 <ehird> (Sent this at 20:16)
21:16:43 <SimonRC> ehird: are you on any busy channels?
21:16:54 <ehird> [20:16] oerjan: ehird: won't work, i also use the timestamps to get an idea how long the channel has been silent
21:17:25 <ehird> [20:17] oerjan: Then put just the seconds at the right side! (Note: Seconds made up) [:34]
21:19:16 <oerjan> <SimonRC> I can't figure out how to get irssi to put arbitrary control characters into things
21:19:20 <ehird> Any connections pretend to be the Vodafone topup HTTP server, I believe.
21:19:20 <ehird> I could join #ubuntu.
21:19:21 <ehird> I can connect to Freenode.
21:19:23 <ehird> Making another connection now.
21:19:25 <ehird> Doesn't seem to work in Colloquy.
21:20:47 <oerjan> SimonRC: works in mine, i may have set it though
21:21:01 <oerjan> /bind ^V escape-char or something
21:21:25 <ehird> Oh, probably sending to the new connection lags.
21:21:45 <SimonRC> the CTCP pings to ehird are just over a minute
21:26:09 <oerjan> SimonRC: the channel still censors many control characters though. although irssi won't notice it since it echoes your own messages itself.
21:27:18 <oerjan> SimonRC: actually if by "into things" you mean things other than messages, i am not so sure what it does
21:27:33 -!- calamari has quit (Connection timed out).
21:27:53 <Rugxulo> I hope nobody in here runs a Geocities site
21:29:10 <Rugxulo> all free Geocities sites disappear tomorrow
21:31:07 <SimonRC> as if there weren't enough missing ones already :-(
21:32:50 -!- calamari has joined.
21:32:55 <SimonRC> google can buy them up, obviously
21:33:11 <Rugxulo> Geocities will still exist (as a Yahoo! service), but the free part won't
21:33:30 <Rugxulo> it's not like it didn't deserve to be dragged out back and shot ... but it still had some good stuff
21:33:51 <Rugxulo> and WayBack isn't exactly reliable :-/
21:33:51 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
21:34:14 <Rugxulo> WHERE OH WHERE HAS MY LITTLE EHIRD GONE? OH WHERE OH WHERE CAN HE BE?
21:39:49 <AnMaster> all those geocities sites I mean
21:40:28 <AnMaster> (with opt-out functionality of course)
21:40:35 <Rugxulo> first of all, I wouldn't even know how, secondly I don't think its ALL worth saving
21:41:01 <Rugxulo> thirdly, they have bandwidth limits
21:41:32 <AnMaster> on how much your browse their site?
21:41:40 <AnMaster> or on how much each site is browsed?
21:41:45 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
21:42:07 <AnMaster> well ok, so just run the script, and make it continue after one hour for the rest
21:42:08 <Rugxulo> IIRC, it's 5 MB per hour per site (but I could be wrong)
21:42:17 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, is it per ip or globally
21:50:08 <AnMaster> reading tzdata package changelog is quite fun
21:50:37 -!- ehird has joined.
21:51:52 <AnMaster> like: "Disable DST switch for Argentina tomorrow, as the Argentina government decided yesterday. Careful planning is boring."
21:53:28 <ehird> We had that in here a few days ago
21:53:30 <ehird> Maybe a week or so
21:53:38 <ehird> JFS seems awesome, incidentally, from my research!
21:53:40 <AnMaster> ehird, oh? Someone mentioned it already. Right
21:53:51 <AnMaster> ehird, jfs is almost as awsome as xfs yes
21:54:00 <ehird> Summary seems to be: It's like XFS, except you don't need to fear horrible death if your system crashes, and it's ever so slightly slower.
21:54:12 <ehird> Also, faster at metadata operations like creating files, etc.
21:54:18 <ehird> Also, smaller community.
21:54:29 <ehird> In conclusion: JFS roolz, XFS droolz,.
21:54:45 <ehird> Ext is soooooo orthodox.
21:55:01 <ehird> Also, if I watch one more mandatory fdisk scan, I'm going to go on a killing spree.
21:55:04 <ehird> EVEN HFS+ DOESN'T DO THAT
21:55:05 <AnMaster> also I never found xfs to be slow at metadata stuff
21:55:07 <ehird> and it's like 20 years old
21:55:12 <ehird> AnMaster: It is, in benchmarks
21:55:17 <ehird> Nothing in filesystems is slow perceptibly :P
21:55:19 <AnMaster> <ehird> Also, if I watch one more mandatory fdisk scan, I'm going to go on a killing spree.
21:55:28 <ehird> Disable them and risk my data, yes.
21:55:31 <ehird> Or use something that isn't ext.
21:56:00 <ehird> XFS loses data on crashes, yes, but JFS doesn't. :P
21:56:53 <AnMaster> ehird, so it journals file data too?
21:57:09 <ehird> Both XFS and JFS are journalled.
21:57:11 <AnMaster> (unlike ext4 was in the beginning at least)
21:57:33 -!- Oranjer has joined.
21:57:34 <AnMaster> ehird, yes... but what exactly is. Metadata or metadata+data?
21:57:43 <AnMaster> that is quite a large difference
21:57:44 <SimonRC> ZFS looks interesting too...
21:57:47 <ehird> I'm not sure. I believe both.
21:57:51 <ehird> SimonRC: Yes, but licensing.
21:57:54 <ehird> SimonRC: And stuff.
21:57:56 <SimonRC> It is non-mutating, I think
21:58:02 <AnMaster> ehird, and that was what the whole "ext4 can destroy your files" stuff was about
21:58:05 <ehird> JFS is usable right now, stock.
21:58:07 <SimonRC> which means you get snapshots for free
21:58:14 <Rugxulo> Apple just abandoned ZFS for Mac, so that sucks
21:58:15 <ehird> AnMaster: It was about fsync stuff.
21:58:16 <AnMaster> vs. "ext3 made developers sloppy"
21:58:20 <ehird> Rugxulo: Due to legal issues.
21:58:24 <AnMaster> ehird, yes apps not doing fsync
21:58:37 <ehird> Apple have enough cash to make a great filesystem.
21:58:38 <AnMaster> ehird, which actually falls back on this on a low enough layer
21:59:07 <AnMaster> This is the default mode. All data is forced directly out to the main file system prior to its metadata being committed to the jour‐
21:59:34 <AnMaster> and you will find the right line
21:59:41 -!- calamari has joined.
22:01:08 <ehird> I should make my own Linux distro, also change my name to zzo38.
22:01:24 * ehird stares at stunning 1024x768, 64 thousand colour Linux framebuffer console booting
22:01:31 <ehird> the colours on that Linux logo make a man proud.
22:02:08 <ehird> "JFS journals metadata only, which means that metadata will remain consistent but user files may be corrupted after a crash or power loss. JFS' journaling is similar to XFS where it only journals parts of the inode."
22:02:26 <AnMaster> ehird, well that is what all high performance ones does
22:03:08 <ehird> [["It's easier said than done."
22:03:09 <ehird> ... and if you don't believe it, try proving that it's easier done than said, and you'll see that "it's easiser said that 'it's easier done than said' than it is done", which really proves that "it's easier said htan done".]]
22:03:14 <ehird> (Typed out from a VM.)
22:03:58 <AnMaster> I should install fortune maybe
22:04:07 <ehird> Slackware+xfce: Putting the floppy drive on the desktop since 2009.
22:04:24 <ehird> (Immediately, all 3 users of floppy disks pipe up with a complaint.)
22:04:37 <AnMaster> hm does it really fit onto a floppy?
22:04:47 <ehird> It fits on something like 6 CDs.
22:04:58 * ehird is using Slackware in a VM, except he only had the first two disk ISOs, so it's the first two disks of slackware
22:05:02 <ehird> It runs XFCE just fine!
22:05:14 <ehird> AnMaster: DOESN'T COUNT FOR THE GAME
22:05:18 <ehird> Although I do wonder if uclinux is usable on a desktop
22:05:25 <ehird> Anyway, at least my distro wouldn't be cookie-cutter!
22:05:34 <ehird> No kernel modules, no dynamic linking!
22:05:42 <ehird> No hideously convoluted filesystem structure!
22:06:28 <ehird> (JFS by default? :P)
22:06:35 <ehird> (No swap by default!)
22:07:55 -!- immibis has joined.
22:08:58 <ehird> uClinux is a kernel, yes.
22:09:05 <ehird> But can it boot desktops?
22:09:34 <ehird> "The main design goal of JFS was to provide fast crash recovery for large filesystems, avoiding the long filesystem check (fsck) times of older Unix filesystems."
22:09:37 <ehird> AnMaster: Modern desktop.
22:09:51 <ehird> Bog-standard modern peripherals.
22:09:55 <ehird> (uClinux still has an MMU if you want it, right?)
22:10:04 <AnMaster> ehird, mmu is optional I think
22:10:23 <ehird> AnMaster: re JFS safety lag time:
22:10:27 <ehird> "X window system with KDE, GIMP, Nvu, and text editor all with open files, plus a shell script that inserted records into a MySQL (ISAM) table. The script I wrote was an infinite loop, and I let it run for a couple of minutes to make sure some records were flushed to disk."
22:10:30 <ehird> "About 3 seconds to replay the journal log. All open files intact, database intact with a few thousand records inserted, but the timestamp on the table file had been rolled back one minute."
22:10:48 <ehird> (2 seconds for both console+text editor with 1 file, X+KDE+GIMP+Nvu+editor in xterm, all with open files)
22:10:52 <ehird> About 2 seconds to replay the journal log. Changes I had not saved in the editor were missing but the file was intact.
22:10:57 <ehird> and the other X: About 2 seconds to replay the journal log. All open files were intact, unsaved changes were missing.
22:11:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Remember that even ext doesn't recover all that stuff with its years-long fscking.
22:11:49 <ehird> So 3 seconds to recover all of that, and be a much, much faster filesystem than ext*... impressive.
22:13:45 -!- Rugxulo has left (?).
22:14:22 <ehird> Hmm, apparently you can't shrink JFS partitions, just grow them.
22:14:53 <ehird> Oh, but someone made a tool to shrink them, apparently.
22:15:17 <AnMaster> ehird, ext doesn't recover by fsck
22:15:23 <AnMaster> actual journal recovery is quite fast
22:15:32 <ehird> Well, yes, but that 3 second figure is for JFS's actual fsck.
22:15:34 <AnMaster> it is just it fscks every n mounts
22:15:48 <AnMaster> ehird, sounds like it didn't do a throughout job :P
22:16:19 <ehird> Have your ext fscks ever done anything more? A well-designed filesystem doesn't mean a cheating filesysteem.
22:17:53 <AnMaster> ehird, well it never detected any errors
22:18:02 -!- immibis has quit ("On the other hand, you have different fingers.").
22:18:11 <AnMaster> so it is just like we say in Sweden "bälte och hängslen"
22:18:20 -!- immibis has joined.
22:18:21 * AnMaster looks for a translation for the third word
22:19:02 <AnMaster> so it means "belt and suspenders"
22:19:37 <immibis> <off-topic> how can I make ChatZilla auto-identify?
22:19:46 <ehird> immibis: Set a server password.
22:19:48 <ehird> Works for Freenode.
22:19:53 <ehird> Otherwise, set up a command to be run on connect.
22:20:49 <immibis> okay...but I can't find where to set a server password
22:22:10 <ehird> immibis: Oh, and you can disable the obnoxious show-highlights-in-the-server-tab thing, too.
22:25:53 <ehird> It seems that Slackware includes only the vital packages on the first two disks — you know, like both vim and emacs.
22:26:22 <ehird> Oh, and both Firefox and Seamonkey.
22:29:47 <SimonRC> vim and emacs are tiny compared to some apps
22:30:12 <ehird> Yes, but including both Firefox AND Seamonkey?
22:30:29 <AnMaster> ehird, heh. what the hell is on the rest of those disks then?
22:30:40 <ehird> Blackjack and hookers?
22:30:54 <ehird> (An office suite of some sort?)
22:31:51 <ehird> Annoying how xfce only includes tools to configure itself, not the system.
22:33:56 <ehird> It doesn't seem to want to talk to my network.
22:35:59 <AnMaster> ehird, oh? just use ifconfig or whatever
22:36:06 <AnMaster> and what about the text config files
22:36:31 <ehird> See, the nice thing about Gnome is that I don't have to fuck around with that bullshit.
22:36:39 <ehird> (Says the person playing with Slackware.)
22:37:17 <ehird> Also, ifconfig just gives lo.
22:38:52 <AnMaster> to show all possible interfaces
22:39:09 <ehird> True, that gives an eth0.
22:39:23 <ehird> ifconfig eth0 up, no luck.
22:39:27 <ehird> It works, but Firefox doesn't load.
22:40:40 <AnMaster> ehird, how does slackware normally config the network?
22:40:49 <ehird> Trivial stuff that there's NO REASON THAT I HAVE TO DO.
22:41:14 <ehird> You know, busywork. Automatable manual labour. i.e., what computers were DESIGNED TO AVOID.
22:42:11 <AnMaster> ehird, hey if you selected slackware you have to bite the bullet
22:42:28 <ehird> That's why it's in a VM and not my disk.
22:42:36 <AnMaster> ehird, well then. Stop complaining
22:42:45 <ehird> You're the one who's replying.
22:43:48 <AnMaster> ehird, thats what your mom said.
22:45:32 <AnMaster> what the hell is it with you and keyboards.
22:45:36 <ehird> AnMaster: No, just the nail.
22:45:53 <ehird> Wonder if JFS2 was ported to Linux.
22:49:55 <ehird> I wonder why people stopped using lilo.
22:50:48 <AnMaster> ehird, um, because it was a lot of work to remember to rerun lilo every time you updated the kernel?
22:50:55 <AnMaster> and it was a bit awkward to use
22:51:08 <ehird> Um, GRUB has to be run too. And how so?
22:51:23 <ehird> /etc/ilo.conf seems just as simple as grub.conf to me.
22:52:15 <AnMaster> and how did you edit command line arguments for lilo from the prompt? You know, for when things went wrong
22:52:19 <ehird> Well, at least, I'm pretty sure Ubuntu does that. Anyway, that's silly; it's one line in the package manager to do it.
22:52:29 <ehird> Also, not sure. I'd have to look it up.
22:53:33 <AnMaster> ehird, http://lwn.net/Articles/89772/ is interesting
22:53:36 <ehird> It just seems to me that lilo is a lot simpler than GRUB, and it isn't in "ONLY BUG FIXES LOL USE OUR MASTURBATORY GRUB 2 CRAP" mode like GRUB 1 is.
22:54:57 <ehird> "GRUB has a more powerful, interactive command line interface." // silly bloat that doesn't belong in a bootloader
22:55:10 <AnMaster> ehird, so... you hate freebsd bootloader then?
22:55:14 <ehird> "LILO stores information about the location of the kernel or other operating system on the Master Boot Record" // simple, as it should be. the distro should obviously automatically update lilo on kernel upgrades
22:55:18 <ehird> AnMaster: Did I say that?
22:55:27 <ehird> I just said that that feature is silly bloat that doesn't belong in a bootloader.
22:55:57 <ehird> "a mis-configured LILO configuration file may leave the system unbootable"
22:55:58 <ehird> Why are you changing the lilo configuration yourself without double-checking it works? This is just carelessness. It's easy to break GRUB too.
22:56:21 <ehird> "Unlike LILO, GRUB has a web site."
22:56:21 <ehird> Ooh, GRUB has its useless website! I hereby swear off LILO forever.
22:56:31 <ehird> Not a very convincing article.
22:56:46 <AnMaster> ehird, I didn't argue for grub or lilo myself
22:56:49 <pikhq> LAWL WHY DONT WE JUST COMPILE EVERYTHING IN. CONFIG FILES ARE T3H SUCK.
22:57:01 -!- MizardX has quit ("reboot").
22:57:02 <ehird> pikhq: You will note that I said none of that.
22:57:11 <ehird> Or anything for similar idiocy.
22:57:25 <ehird> I'm just saying that if you put stuff in the bootloader configuration file — yes! You may break your bootloader.
22:57:28 <AnMaster> I actually think that "broken menu.lst is possible to work around" is quite an useful feature
22:57:33 <ehird> "I, personally, believe that [both are] a grave injustice, because the boot loader is the most important software of all. I used to refer to the above systems as either 'LILO' or 'GRUB' systems."
22:57:46 <ehird> ("So, if you ever hear people talking about their alleged 'GNU' systems, remember that they are actually paying homage to the best boot loader around: GRUB!")
22:57:50 <ehird> Pretty sure it's joking.
22:57:56 <pikhq> ... Boot loader, must important? That's fucking retarded.
22:58:00 <ehird> If it's not, that's some pretty unprecedented hubris.
22:58:08 <ehird> pikhq: The whole quote seems to be a joke:
22:58:09 <ehird> Some people like to acknowledge both the operating system and kernel when they talk about their computers, so they might say they use 'GNU/Linux' or 'GNU/Hurd'. Other people seem to think that the kernel is the most important part of the system, so they like to call their GNU operating systems 'Linux systems'. I, personally, believe that [both are] a grave injustice, because the boot loader is the most important software of all. I used to refer to the above
22:58:11 <ehird> systems as either 'LILO' or 'GRUB' systems. Unfortunately, nobody ever understood what I was talking about; now I just use the word 'GNU' as a pseudonym for GRUB. So, if you ever hear people talking about their alleged 'GNU' systems, remember that they are actually paying homage to the best boot loader around: GRUB!
22:58:32 <ehird> Booting Linux is, what, 100 lines of code? :P
22:59:55 <ehird> "The -R command line option is also very useful when you have a dual boot system, for quick shutdown from one system (e.g. Linux) to reboot into another (e.g. Windows) without the timed out delay waiting for the user to select which system to boot."
22:59:58 <ehird> Ooh, that's a nice lilo thing.
23:00:07 <ehird> Could make a desktop icon for the other OS.
23:00:22 <ehird> Just have it elevate to root with a graphical thingummie, do the LILO -R, and reboot.
23:00:41 <ehird> Apparently there's a patch for GRUB, and it might have got in since 2004, I guess.
23:02:07 <AnMaster> ehird, is it really that useful? 3 second delay?
23:02:11 -!- MizardX has joined.
23:02:27 <ehird> It's good to have.
23:02:34 <ehird> Sure, if you just have Linux and Windows it doesn't matter too much..
23:02:40 <ehird> But some people have 4, 5 OSs.
23:02:46 <AnMaster> ehird, I would say eye-candy because it isn't exactly that. But similar
23:02:53 <AnMaster> ehird, hm. I want such a large harddrive :P
23:03:00 <ehird> For one, people use it for unattented kernel upgrades on servers.
23:03:05 <ehird> In the comments of that article.
23:03:48 <AnMaster> ehird, there is a better way for that in grub. Fallback kernel. And if the new kernel reboots it will fall back on the old if you haven't manually set it to the newer one
23:03:49 <ehird> So it's a command with a minor practical use for users with quite a few OSs, major practical use for server administrators, requires little code, doesn't bother those who don't need it, and has little opportunity for failure.
23:03:51 <ehird> So what's the problem?
23:03:57 <immibis> ehird, on grub if you have a messed up configuration that stops you booting, you can boot linux manually from the grub command prompt
23:04:00 <ehird> AnMaster: And lilo's is more general andd simpler.
23:04:16 <ehird> immibis: I know that, and it's silly.
23:04:38 <ehird> First, lilo balks if your configuration file is invalid when you run it. Secondly, don't put stuff in the configuration file unless you double-check it first. Failing that, just pop in a live USB stick.
23:04:44 <ehird> I mean, sure, minor usage, but still.
23:04:46 <ehird> It's not a huge thing.
23:04:59 <AnMaster> ehird, so what is so much *better* with lilo than grub?
23:05:55 <pikhq> AnMaster: Compiling in configuration to the bootloader? :P
23:06:00 <ehird> More minimalist, doesn't have the creaky default behaviour of put-stuff-in-unallocated-sectors that GRUB does, is simple, is not in GRUB's ridiculous "bug-fix only mode because we have a new child and its name is GRUB 2".
23:06:20 <ehird> ("More minimalist, […] is simple" Guess I'm not a minimalist!)
23:06:36 <ehird> Also, it can boot LVM partitions, from what I gather.
23:06:39 <AnMaster> "is not in GRUB's ridiculous "bug-fix only mode because we have a new child and its name is GRUB 2"" <-- so someone actually adds new features to lilo?
23:06:49 <ehird> So you don't need a regular /boot partition.
23:07:03 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't know, but the GRUB maintainers clearly don't like maintaining GRUB 1.
23:07:25 <ehird> LILO's last release was in 2007, so it's not really that dead.
23:07:26 <ehird> (That is quite a while, but it *has* been in development since 19992.)
23:07:45 <ehird> They should just release every year changing the copyright date if they don't have any meaningful changes to make.
23:07:51 <AnMaster> and booting lvm is nice. What if the lvm partition with the kernel moves around?
23:08:05 <AnMaster> or the kernel ends up split over multiple disks
23:08:18 <ehird> Read the manual or whatever.
23:10:00 <SimonRC> ehird: why are you comparing lilo to grub 1? why not compare lilo to grub 2?
23:10:01 <pikhq> AnMaster: With Lilo, shit breaks.
23:10:20 <pikhq> Even if the device number happens to change.
23:10:37 <ehird> With GRUB, mu, because it can't do LVM.
23:10:38 <SimonRC> in my limited experience, grub 2 just automatically detects all the kernels and writes the config file I want
23:10:43 <ehird> SimonRC: because nobody uses grub 2.
23:11:04 <pikhq> With GRUB 2, it groks LVM.
23:12:30 <SimonRC> oddly this debian despite being a product of 2009 doesn't use GUIDs for mounting stuff
23:14:01 <AnMaster> SimonRC, great. Because I had to change that on my ubuntu laptop. UUIDs break with encrypted root + crypttab
23:14:57 <SimonRC> but it can be hard to know what the kernel is going to call a partition in situations in which you can't boot the kernel
23:15:16 <SimonRC> actually, there might be enough stuff in the initrd to find out
23:15:39 <SimonRC> the initrd is rather neat; it even has an editor in it
23:15:55 <SimonRC> back in the day it would have counted as a well-equipped unix system
23:16:10 <SimonRC> except for lack of compiler I suppose
23:20:13 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initrd
23:24:32 <ehird> grub 2 is even more bloated :)
23:24:36 <ehird> and is the developers' plaything
23:25:00 <ehird> you like unstable, bloated software?
23:25:31 <ehird> i really hate using windows 3.0 as a main OS
23:25:50 <ehird> "Real memory management, to make GNU GRUB more extensible."
23:25:54 <ehird> GRUB 2: Now with memory management.
23:25:59 <AnMaster> ehird, oh but you hate me agreeing with you
23:26:09 <AnMaster> so. Thus I agree windows 3.0 is painful
23:26:10 <ehird> "Graphical interface."
23:26:19 <ehird> GRUB 2: Please, spend all your time in me.
23:26:26 <ehird> You don't want to boot those OSs. I have everything they have!
23:26:30 <ehird> "Scripting support, such as conditionals, loops, variables and functions."
23:26:54 <ehird> Now! Use an AI to decide which OS to boot!
23:26:54 <ehird> It's the feature you've all asked for!
23:27:00 <ehird> In conclusion: lol grub 2 suxz
23:27:30 <SimonRC> are those things really downsides?
23:27:39 <ehird> Bloat is a downside.
23:27:49 <AnMaster> ehird, then freebsd bootloader is bloated
23:27:51 <SimonRC> does it actually matter on modern machines?
23:27:52 <ehird> The fact that what I quoted constitutes a large part of GRUB 2's feature list means that they aren't spending time on important things
23:27:57 <ehird> LIKE ACTUALLY MAKING A DECENT BOOTLOADER
23:28:23 <SimonRC> what dose it not do that you want it to?
23:28:24 <ehird> AnMaster: That may be so.
23:29:12 <ehird> Why is it better than LILO? Does it add anything useful over it? The thing that's been mentioned is LVM support, i.e. bringing it in line with LILO.
23:29:29 <ehird> And bloat is definitely a downside, so that's a point against it.
23:29:57 <AnMaster> ehird, I find that the "possible to recover from error" to be a pretty good reason.
23:30:10 <ehird> SimonRC is specifically telling me to do LILO vs grub2.
23:30:25 <ehird> Yes, that is one advantage of grub 1, however, IMO, it is not a big one, and LILO has other points in its favour.
23:30:35 <SimonRC> does lilo automatically get informed when you install a new kernel, so it gets used on next reboot?
23:30:44 <ehird> But GRUB 2? GRUB 1, plus bloat, plus LVM support, which lilo has.
23:30:53 <ehird> AnMaster: I have argued against that. But sure, give that point to GRUB 1.
23:31:05 <ehird> SimonRC: Yes, if your package manager tells it afterwards.
23:31:14 <ehird> Oh, it doesn't? Sounds like your distro is populated by GRUB users.
23:31:23 <AnMaster> like when kernel ended up seeing it has hd0,0 but grub as hd1,0. Easy to recover. Oh and I tried lilo back then too. It ended up with same issue
23:31:25 <ehird> It's not really fair to lilo that the distros don't do it.
23:31:32 <AnMaster> it was "is pata or sata disk hd0"
23:32:20 <SimonRC> well, my experience is that I install grub 2 and it just works (here)
23:32:30 <SimonRC> I lack the knowlege to say much more
23:32:53 <SimonRC> (mwahaha disarm the opponent with false humility, making him look bad)
23:33:04 <SimonRC> oops did I actually type that?
23:33:06 <ehird> ignorance is not the same as humility :P
23:33:16 <ehird> With a distro that supports calling it automatically (probably not many nowadays), and not putting random stupid shit into the config file, lilo should just work too.
23:33:49 <SimonRC> I forget who was on the lilo side
23:34:31 <ehird> Everyone uses GRUB 1, dude. :P
23:34:33 <ehird> Also, I'm on the lilo side.
23:35:04 <ehird> I just realised that I was all boo, lilo is old and crufty, yay, GRUB is awesome and then I realised that GRUB had some points I don't like about it and I couldn't actually reason why GRUB was better, so I investigated.
23:35:16 <ehird> And it turns out that lilo might actually be better, so yeah. It's just me investigating common dogma.
23:37:29 <ehird> elilo is just lilo for EFI./
23:37:37 <ehird> It's basically the only native EFI loader.
23:37:51 <ehird> Funny, though, to have the bloated GRUB2-ish EFI boot into the minimalist lilo.
23:39:06 <AnMaster> ehird, can't grub2 handle EFI iirc?
23:47:35 <ehird> RIP SimonRC ????—2009
23:59:52 <ehird> you're still here, AnMaster