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00:45:59 <SimonRC> 'SUP DAWG I HEARD YOU LIKE UPGRADES SO WE PUT AN UPGRADE IN YOUR X SO NOW YOU HAVE TO REBOOT BECAUSE THE PROTOCOL CHANGED BACKWARD-INCOMPATIBLY.
00:46:33 <SimonRC> my boss made a reference to Brainfuck a few days back
00:46:48 <SimonRC> he is kinda a techy type so it's not that ridiculous
00:47:04 <lament> oh so he wasn't talking about the sex act
00:49:02 * SimonRC hasn't heard of that one being done.
00:52:10 <lament> skullfuck is the more popular term
00:54:07 <SimonRC> I meant, being done, rather than being talked about
00:54:24 <lament> i imagine it's difficult to find a willing partner
01:17:36 <Asztal> lament: who said they had to be willing?
01:17:55 <Gregor> I think that the concept pretty much precludes willingness.
01:18:33 <Asztal> Maybe the people who let themselves be eaten would allow it
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02:51:11 <madbrain> just read about the halting problem... the proof of impossibility is so nasty :D
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03:02:03 <madbrain> well, basically they proved you can't solve the halting problem by writing a program that generates a paradox if you try to do that
03:03:03 <madbrain> if you can solve the halting problem, then you have a function solve_halting_problem(program)
03:03:20 <madbrain> but then you can write a program like this:
03:04:40 <madbrain> program p = { if solve_halting_program(p) true then loop_indefinitely(), else stop}
03:05:32 <madbrain> so in other words it uses the potential solution on itself, determines if it's halting, if it's halting then don't halt, if it's not halting then halt
03:06:44 <madbrain> but than that means your solve_halting_program() function cannot return either true or false for that particular program because then the program uses the solution to prove it false
03:12:04 <quantumEd> program := if halts(program) then loop else return
03:13:13 <quantumEd> program(p) := if halts(p) then loop else return
03:13:18 <quantumEd> and then you ask if halts(program(program))
03:16:30 <quantumEd> if my language was just if/then/else, return, CAR, CDR, etc.. then every program terminates -- now if you add the loop keyword, you can define 'program' but you should be able to define halts quite easily too
03:17:07 <quantumEd> (suppose the language only allowed well founded recursion)
03:18:33 <pikhq> quantumEd: ... "Well-founded recursion"?
03:18:49 <quantumEd> you are allowed to loop on smaller inputs than what you were given only
03:19:09 <quantumEd> so that every function (that's execution doesn't reach any "loop") terminates
03:19:28 <pikhq> And how do you intend to enforce such a restriction?
03:19:58 <quantumEd> doesn't matter really, you could do it syntactially or give the programmer the benefit of the doubt
03:20:35 <pikhq> ... And for that matter, what does "smaller inputs" mean?
03:21:00 <quantumEd> if the inpute was the program "if halts(program) then loop else return" then "loop" is smaller (because it is a subterm)
03:21:38 <pikhq> ... I'm more confused than I was previously.
03:23:18 <pikhq> And I also wonder what about that restricts the following: S(x,y,z) := z(y,z(y)); K(x,y) := x
03:25:33 <madbrain> you mean S(x,y,z) := x(z)(y(z))
03:25:53 <pikhq> ... Yes, yes I do.
03:27:07 <quantumEd> well that program passes the recursion scheme (since it doesn't use recursion) but it is an error because it's not well typed
03:28:05 <pikhq> Why isn't it well-typed?
03:28:36 <madbrain> I think the point is that you're basically imposing limitations that make the resulting language not turing complete
03:28:59 <quantumEd> yes it is not turing complete because of (1) the types (2) the allowed recursion scheme
03:29:53 <pikhq> quantumEd: What sort of ridiculous restriction on the type system *could you do* to make that not well-typed?
03:30:10 <pikhq> madbrain: My point is that that's bloody hard without making something that's completely and utterly useless.
03:30:23 <quantumEd> oh you are one of these pragmatists
03:30:56 <quantumEd> I'm writing up my idea now to see if I am right
03:31:34 <madbrain> the best languages are the ones that are turing complete with the least number of instructions/operators/etc... :D
03:31:34 <pikhq> quantumEd: By "useful", I mean "capable of non-trivial calculation".
03:31:53 <quantumEd> what sort of non trivial calculuation?
03:32:09 <quantumEd> (I'll try and work it in if possible)
03:32:57 <pikhq> Say, functions that do more than mere arithmetic?
03:33:21 <pikhq> Perhaps... Hmm. Matrix multiplication?
03:33:33 <pikhq> Nah, that's even a bit trivial.
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03:54:42 <quantumEd> it's really hard to make this language ...ars
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06:57:27 <quantumEd> <madbrain> program p = { if solve_halting_program(p) true then loop_indefinitely(), else stop}
06:57:39 <quantumEd> <madbrain> program p = { if solve_halting_program(p(p)) true then loop_indefinitely(), else stop}
07:01:00 <quantumEd> also I figured out a language (that has nontermination) which has solve_halting_program as a built in, but I couldn't find a language which it's possible to implement solve_halting_program in (yet?)
07:01:37 <quantumEd> I'm talking about non-trivial ones, so we can't have solve_halting_program(_) = true
07:06:23 <madbrain> don't know what to think or say
07:15:12 <quantumEd> madbrain, I have been thinking about this a lot
07:16:21 <madbrain> dunno, I just looked up a website about the halting problem proof and went "that is neat"
07:18:17 <quantumEd> so you don't really want to think about it beyond that I guess
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07:54:11 <quantumEd> "The halting problem describes why computers can't easily avoid crashing, or rather, why they can't predict when they are about to crash and ..." BULLSHIT!
07:55:24 <quantumEd> madbrain was talking about halting problem and got me interested but he's to busy/smart/clever to talk to me about it
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08:08:31 <pikhq> quantumEd: BTW, the halting problem is actually solvable for commonly available computers. (theoretically, not practically)
08:09:05 <bsmntbombdood> because commonly available computers have finite memory, etc
08:09:07 <pikhq> (hooray, not actually having Turing machines)
08:11:14 <bsmntbombdood> it takes something like 2**n memory though on a von neumann with n bits of ram
08:12:20 <quantumEd> if you get simply typed lambda calculus and add booleans (and if) and omega (some diverging term), you can also add a halts function (but not implement it in this language, it has to be implemented in the interpreter)
08:16:11 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Sounds about right.
08:16:29 <quantumEd> I thought about adding (typed) codes for terms of the language and recursion operators for them, but there's bubbles that don't go away so it doesn't seem to work. maybe something first order would work (yuo can only have base types on the left of an arrow)
08:17:17 <quantumEd> you would have to end up with a language that can express its own halting predicate but not the liar program
08:17:47 <quantumEd> there's nothing about the liar program afaict that actually has anything to do with turing completenss
08:29:29 <quantumEd> am I right ? wrong ? just totally trivial observation ??
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12:45:49 <ais523> Thought for the day: <Mason Wheeler> Oh, definitely. C++ may not be the worst programming language ever created, but without a doubt it's the worst ever to be taken seriously.
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15:26:51 <oerjan> <bsmntbombdood> it takes something like 2**n memory though on a von neumann with n bits of ram
15:27:26 <oerjan> no, you only need a slight amount of extra memory. what you need is 2**n _time_ however
15:29:02 <oerjan> (double memory or so to do a step count, i think)
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15:33:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, what is this operation that takes 2**n timer?
15:33:42 <oerjan> halting check for a finite machine
15:34:03 <oerjan> (by some other machine)
15:34:54 <oerjan> 2**n is the maximum amount of steps before it starts repeating itself
15:36:22 * AnMaster wonders how to get field width correct for printf() when using utf-8. Basically stuff like %10s checks bytes
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15:45:57 <pikhq> AnMaster: %10R in Plan 9 C, "give up" otherwise.
15:46:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, wprintf() and setlocale(LC_CTYPE, "")
15:46:28 <AnMaster> of course now I have to deal with wchar_t instead
15:47:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, issue: this code is supposed to be portable C89 though
15:47:15 <AnMaster> and possibly even work on windows (ugh)
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15:48:59 <pikhq> AnMaster: Give up.
15:49:34 <pikhq> Only C99 possesses functioning UTF-8 support.
15:49:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, maybe a C89/C99 polygot?
15:49:58 <AnMaster> still it breaks char constants
15:50:00 <pikhq> But, then, they invented UTF-8.
15:50:39 <AnMaster> there is no way I can use the preprocessor to add/get rid of it I think
15:50:46 <AnMaster> well, I can't think of one at least
15:51:24 <pikhq> It's impossible with the C preprocessor.
16:02:07 <oerjan> AnMaster: D&D expanded strip >_<
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16:30:07 * AnMaster is unable to get wide char ncurses working
16:30:35 <AnMaster> it just outputs *nothing*. It blanks the screen to put it in that cursor addressing mode (as expected) but then nothing else works (not expected)
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17:37:44 <oerjan> the same thing we do every day poiuy_qwert
17:38:19 <oerjan> i can neither confirm nor deny that
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18:16:15 <FireFly> poiuy_qwert, it must be a bit annoying to write your nick every time you login somewhere?
18:17:16 <FireFly> Well, I see the pattern of course, but I've never liked writing qwerty on qwerty, I think it's easier to write a word where the keys are evenly distributed between the hands and so on
18:18:23 <poiuy_qwert> well i just slide my finger along the buttons, so its almost like only pressing 3 keys, p... _ q...
18:18:41 <oklofok> or you could use a 10 finger approach
18:18:44 * oerjan tries that and it just feels _wrong_
18:20:18 <FireFly> oh, right, I forgot I'm not using Qwerty
18:20:31 <FireFly> I just have the physical keys setup like that
18:50:11 <bsmntbombdood> so you don't need to check for repeating states at all
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20:18:31 <AnMaster> <poiuy_qwert> well i just slide my finger along the buttons, so its almost like only pressing 3 keys, p... _ q... <-- you have a laptop or possibly a flat desktop keyboard I presume?
20:18:53 <AnMaster> there is no way sliding works well on anything like a classical PC keyboard
20:19:38 <poiuy_qwert> I have a MacBook pro, which is one of the less easy keyboards to slide along, but i've only seen like 1 keyboard in person that couldn't do it effectively
20:19:59 <AnMaster> poiuy_qwert, I was thinking along the lines of "model m"
20:20:23 <poiuy_qwert> I don't know what that is, gotta google it :P
20:20:53 <poiuy_qwert> ah yes those ones. who has those anymore? ;P
20:20:55 <AnMaster> poiuy_qwert, think "clicky keyboard"
20:21:12 <AnMaster> poiuy_qwert, well I have something similar but not clicky. Membrane sadly
20:21:27 <AnMaster> still it is impossible to slide on it
20:21:56 <poiuy_qwert> i see, well i still dont even find it bad to type my name, but thats probably because i'm more of a two finger typer
20:22:02 <AnMaster> well not that type of membrane
20:22:36 <AnMaster> oh yes, "dome switch" is the real name
20:23:29 * AnMaster use four on each hand usually. Sometimes all
20:23:56 <AnMaster> poiuy_qwert, next I guess you are going to say you aren't touch typing!
20:23:56 <FireFly> Four on each hand, thumbs for space
20:24:07 <FireFly> Thumbs for other stuff is impossible :P
20:24:12 <AnMaster> FireFly, well yes I included "thumb for space" with those four
20:24:18 <poiuy_qwert> well its not really two fingers, i just use my index fingers A LOT
20:24:35 <FireFly> Well, I've started to touch type since I switched over to Svorak
20:24:49 <FireFly> I forced myself to learning it at the same time, when I was anyway relearning it from scratch
20:25:05 <FireFly> poiuy_qwert, wikipedia it, it's some "rules" for which fingers to use for which buttons
20:25:43 <FireFly> It's actually just columns.. the index fingers are for six letter keys each, the rest are for three each
20:26:20 <AnMaster> but I meant it in the sense of not having to look at the keyboard to type
20:26:35 <FireFly> Well, I've done that a long time anyway
20:26:36 <poiuy_qwert> isn't it the one where they tell you to start with your fingers all position on a,s,d,f,space space,j,k,l,;?
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20:27:01 <AnMaster> well, not really, not when using emacs
20:27:07 <poiuy_qwert> yeah, i do it somewhat, but i find it easier to just go with the flow
20:27:11 <FireFly> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touch_typing <-- that image there tells most of it (about the layout related stuff, that is)
20:27:39 <AnMaster> FireFly, they should stop using slanted rows IMO
20:27:42 <FireFly> I usually stay with my fingers at aoeu htns (the dvorak home row), much more than I did when I used Qwerty
20:27:49 <FireFly> BeholdMyGlory agrees with you, AnMaster
20:28:32 <FireFly> Slanted rows would be really, really strange
20:28:52 <AnMaster> FireFly, s/strange/so ergonomic you can charge the double price/
20:29:16 <AnMaster> but seriously I think a split keyboard would be really nice
20:29:20 <BeholdMyGlory> AnMaster: You mean something like http://www.ergoff.se/produkter/ez_reach ?
20:29:50 <AnMaster> well maybe. I think that key placement looks strange
20:30:21 <AnMaster> BeholdMyGlory, I was considering qwerty or dvorak style but not slanted columns.
20:30:32 <AnMaster> or if slanted, slanted symetrically
20:34:14 * AnMaster wants an model m terminal keyboard
20:34:20 <AnMaster> why? Just because it looks so impressive
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21:22:52 <oklofok> ais523: chebyshev's inequality is actually one of my this week's homework problems :D
21:23:14 <oklofok> or actually even if you don't
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22:24:23 <AnMaster> garlic is one of the most important, nay fundamental, components of a well balanced and well designed meal
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22:27:03 <fizzie`> Hey, there after my nickname.
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22:27:13 <fizzie`> s/ere/ere's some fly droppings/
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22:28:58 <AnMaster> when switching client/servers of synergy
22:29:22 <AnMaster> laptop speed is fine, desktop speed is too fast
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23:44:26 <oklofok> ais523: also the proof is a one-liner
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23:57:08 <poiuy_qwert> has anyone ever made an IRC bot written in an esoteric language?