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06:00:50 <ehirdiphone> I realised something disturbing. Lazy evaluation means that (length xs) might be _|_ for one of two reasons: xs is infinitely long, or xs is _|_. Whereas strict evaluation only has the latter. This is obvious, but:
06:01:23 <ehirdiphone> It means that lazy evaluation gives your programs more opportunities to _|_.
06:02:24 <ehirdiphone> Indeed, lazy evaluation also means _|_ can go undetected, if a function chooses a certain branch, thus not evaluating it.
06:03:43 <soupdragon> the reason you get _|_ on an infinite list is because haskell is strict
06:03:48 <ehirdiphone> So if you want to minimise bugs, strict evaluation is actually quite superior.
06:03:58 <pikhq> soupdragon: ... Say what now?
06:05:07 <ehirdiphone> Such an implementation would be beyond glacial.
06:05:28 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Strict evaluation is only quite superior for bug minimisation when all else is equal.
06:05:40 <pikhq> Which, of course, it isn't.
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06:06:09 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Yes, but if you're going to the effort of using the type system to its full
06:06:35 <ehirdiphone> Lazy evaluation kinda negates that quite a bit
06:07:46 <ehirdiphone> The way you phrased that suggests that there's no language that's like haskell but strict
06:08:21 <ehirdiphone> Pretty similar. Does some things better, actually.
06:08:42 <soupdragon> yeah like being suitable for writing programs bigger than one page :o)
06:08:59 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: btw strict != impure. You can have strict monadic IO
06:09:59 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Yeah, strict != impure.
06:10:15 <pikhq> I just wasn't *aware* of any strict pure functional languages with a proper type system.
06:11:19 <soupdragon> what about strongly normalizing ones (it doesn't matter if you use strict or pure, you get the same result)
06:11:31 <ehirdiphone> so, my head is formulating a pure functional language with dependent types, first class modules (think ml functor style stuff), compile-time type inspection (type system metaprogramming), and arbritary syntactic extension
06:12:33 <ehirdiphone> while I'm piling on the cool shit, let's have region inferrence instead of a gc too. maybe.
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06:14:42 <ehirdiphone> Functors? Why not just make a compile-level function module ... -> module ...?
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06:15:02 <ehirdiphone> They are first class values (at compile time), after all!
06:15:05 <pikhq> Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ocaml appears to have non-trivial functions from () -> ()...
06:15:49 <ehirdiphone> Ocaml-but-monadic is a trivial variation however
06:16:14 <pikhq> In my purely functional mind, the only meaningful functions of () -> () are \_->() and _|_...
06:16:16 <ehirdiphone> Btw why does hs do notation have "do"? It doesn't disambiguate
06:16:51 <soupdragon> what of \_->_|_ and \()->() and \()->_|)?
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06:17:20 <soupdragon> I think \()->() is different to \_->()
06:17:20 <pikhq> soupdragon: AKA _|_, \_->() and _|_.
06:17:30 <pikhq> I specified that the type is ()->().
06:17:38 <pikhq> The only value of type () is ().
06:17:46 <pikhq> ... And _|_, of course.
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06:19:43 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: Well, you claimed Ocaml was pure. So, I assumed that that meant it was pure. :P
06:19:49 <ehirdiphone> I wonder why Ur/Web uses SQL. Such a fancy language with such a hobbling, antiquated data store.
06:20:10 <pikhq> You more implied it, really.
06:20:19 <pikhq> And I inferred from that that it was pure.
06:20:26 <soupdragon> try using it to program stuff instead of whatever it's meant for, it's loads of fun
06:21:51 <soupdragon> maybe I should make an esolang based on the best bits, and pretend I thought of it myself
06:22:58 <zzo38> cURL would require: Gopher protocol, Xmodem/Ymodem/Zmodem, recursive retrieval (for HTTP, FTP, and Gopher), SSH (Secure Shell), port number ranges, SMTP, POP3, NNTP, and a different one
06:23:03 <ehirdiphone> Functions, continuations, at compile time even modules and types
06:23:59 <ehirdiphone> And if you serialise [f,g,cont] I think that the environment shared by them would only be serialised once
06:26:18 <zzo38> There is something wrong with pbox service, once you post something, it will use the number for the pastebin.ca URL instead, and then it won't work. If you redirect to pastebin.ca with the same number, then you can get the correct pbox URL
06:27:32 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: You seem like the type to know this stuff - does FRP work for linear things? Like command line programs.
06:27:51 <ehirdiphone> seems like it'd basically amount to a really verbose io monad
06:30:17 <zzo38> Is it good? http://pbox.ca/1135q
06:31:18 <zzo38> Actually I am not a weird bot, and I am also not a bot
06:32:26 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: Sam Hughes reference possibly detected!
06:32:30 <zzo38> But, I'm not bots, really. I didn't just make this up, it is actually real
06:32:38 <zzo38> But I did write a IRC bot, too
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06:33:45 <zzo38> See, I did wrote a IRC bot program
06:33:57 <zzo38> But I'm not the bot
06:34:42 <ehirdiphone> zzo38: soupdragon is just trollin' you to the max :p
06:35:16 <zzo38> I don't really care as much about
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06:36:49 <zzo38> PocketMonsterIRC supports some commands, try join and ro commands. You can also load separate modules, for loading a game, for example.
06:37:34 <zzo38> ro requires a dice notation
06:37:59 <zzo38> For private rolls, use rnd instead of ro other than that it is the same
06:38:10 <zzo38> For multiple rolls, you can do like: ro 3d6 6
06:38:55 <zzo38> I guess it did, I didn't write it to check range
06:39:08 <zzo38> I can see the status in the window
06:39:15 <zzo38> That's OK, I will correct it next time.
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06:41:33 <zzo38> Is the documentation for metadata in TAVSYS is good enough?
06:42:40 <zzo38> Maybe I should explain it a bit, the METADATA command takes ( id string extra -- )
06:42:46 <zzo38> Numbers are unsigned 16-bits
06:43:06 <zzo38> Is it understandable now?
06:44:22 <zzo38> It is for encoding metadata for a text-adventure game as part of a TAVSYS story file or source file
06:45:57 <soupdragon> it seems fine but there's no space for adding in stuff that hasn't been considered?
06:46:38 <zzo38> There is space, because the ID number can go up to 65535. However, it has to be defined what the ID number is, so that it can be used
06:47:58 <zzo38> TAVSYS is just a text-adventure system I am writing. I have it mostly done, except for documentation and the standard adventure library, both of which are only partially complete.
06:48:11 <zzo38> The program works, however. I did make a sokoban game in it
06:49:01 <zzo38> What does a "repo" mean
06:49:15 <soupdragon> like a directory with source code in it
06:49:29 <zzo38> OK, I will put it right now
06:50:11 <zzo38> Just wait a minute
06:50:27 <soupdragon> zzo38, I just ask because I like looking - I probably wont have much helpful things to tell you
06:50:36 <zzo38> OK, just a minute, please.
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06:55:33 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/tavsys/
06:57:13 <zzo38> There's the code of a sokoban game: http://pbox.ca/11363
06:58:25 <zzo38> A few various sets, including some I made myself. But there are only a few, because this is mostly just for example, anyways.
06:58:49 <soupdragon> zzo38 ace!! making sokoban levels is very difficult,
07:01:05 <zzo38> If you have Windows, you can download tavsys_win32glk.zip and then use tavsysc with the filename containing this codes as the first parameter, and the name of compiled file second (should be "sokoban.tav"). You can use tavsysglk to run. You might want to import the registry file it comes with, at first, but it is not a requirement.
07:02:02 <soupdragon> hehe for some reason it didn't even occur to me to try running the code to play them :D
07:04:31 <zzo38> You can also download tavsys_src.zip and compile it yourself, however, the run-time program currently requires Win32 Glk (feel free to fix it if you know how), although the compile-time program should work anywhere.
07:05:36 <zzo38> Actually, it requires not only Win32 Glk but also MinGW and the GNU C compiler. Feel free to fix these things if you know how.
07:07:57 <zzo38> Hopefully the documentation should be understandable as it is currently written (although incomplete), but you can tell me if there is something wrong with the documentation, or with the program itself, or with the standard libraries, etc
07:08:24 <zzo38> Probably when I have written the standard adventure library, next I will implement Cloak of Darkness as an example.
07:15:12 <zzo38> Do you think you would use it, once the adventure library is written? I will certainly use it, to make at least one full game
07:16:17 <soupdragon> well it seems like fun to try and get to run here (on mac right now since my gnu/linux borke) but I still haven't read it fully yet
07:19:06 <zzo38> If you can get it to run on a Mac (you can use Glk or write a different user-interface code), I would like to see the codes for doing so, I might include in my program, then.
07:20:34 <zzo38> If you get an error that a negative number of array elements is not allowed, it is because the wrong number of bits in a number of each size, you have to correct that by changing the "#define cell" so that it is a unsigned 16-bits number
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13:05:40 <AnMaster> strange, a game that has no reason to access the cdrom tries to do that
13:06:05 <AnMaster> well it's python, shouldn't be too hard to track down
13:07:58 <AnMaster> oh it's due to pygame it seems. meh
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15:25:17 <AnMaster> ais523, how goes stuff with feather?
15:26:07 <ais523> because I'm mostly sane atm, and need to stay that way for a bit
15:26:14 <ais523> I'd /almost/ even forgotten Feather existed...
15:26:41 <ais523> you can remind me again when I'm going insane anyway
15:26:50 <AnMaster> how do I know when that happens?
15:26:59 <AnMaster> it isn't very noticeable on you
15:27:10 <oerjan> ais523: i take it you have retroactively erased the memory? </duck>
15:27:28 <ais523> no, existing progress continues
15:27:37 <ais523> anyway, I've been working on Underlambda recently
15:27:51 <ais523> I recreated my Unlambda -> Underlambda compiler
15:27:55 <ais523> although it now targets Underload too
15:28:08 <ais523> atm it handles skivd`.
15:28:24 <ais523> and also q if using Underlambda as the target (and it'll eventually handle c with Underlambda as the target)
15:29:52 <AnMaster> ais523, do you plan to make it optimising?
15:30:29 <ais523> although, maybe eventually
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17:38:46 <mkry> AnMaster, are you about?
17:39:09 <ais523> he was earlier, but hasn't said anything for a while
17:39:27 <mkry> Ok, thanks, and hello.
17:40:28 <ais523> I'm busy working on Underlambda at the moment, and thinking about DownRight
17:42:00 <ais523> I've got a half-finished Unlambda -> Underlambda compiler atm, and I think you could use similar techniques to maybe compile Unlambda to Scheme
17:42:51 <ais523> the tricky part is mostly handling d, c is easy in a language that has first-class continuations
17:45:16 <ais523> hmm, I should paste what I've done so far in case I delete it by accident again (what happened to my /first/ Unlambda -> Underlambda compiler)
17:45:25 -!- lament has changed nick to memental.
17:46:38 <mkry> Hello AnMaster.
17:46:55 <mkry> I came to thank you in person.
17:47:33 <ais523> http://pastebin.ca/1730896
17:47:34 <AnMaster> mkry, I'm happy it helped. I also suggest you thank ehird (but he is rarely on for long nowdays)
17:47:34 <mkry> I am over my crisis, and you played a part in that, so Thanks!
17:47:53 <AnMaster> (ehird and I cooperated on it)
17:47:54 <mkry> I was going to, but do not see him here, if he appears when I am, I have my thanks for him as well.
17:48:27 <mkry> In that case, Thanks Ehird! wished I could have given it to you in person tho.
17:48:46 <AnMaster> mkry, hm there may be one thing, hours before I got your mail about seeing a therapist I contacted the police in the place I believed you lived
17:49:03 <AnMaster> I did contact them again after to tell them everything was well
17:49:09 <AnMaster> however I never got a reply to either email
17:49:22 <mkry> Not surprising, police here are very busy.
17:49:25 <AnMaster> of course I don't know if you moved since then or anything
17:49:39 <mkry> depends on where you think here is.
17:49:46 <AnMaster> mkry, I had it as Las Vegas, Nevada, (from 2008 irc logs)
17:49:53 <mkry> That is still correct.
17:50:22 <AnMaster> mkry, lets just hope police doesn't show up and mess things up then.
17:50:46 <mkry> I somehow doubt they would, knowing the police around here.
17:50:58 <mkry> But if so, I can deal with it.
17:51:10 <AnMaster> mkry, well, a bit bad timing on my part
17:51:18 <ais523> it's unlikely they'll bother, unless the first mail gets through and the second doesn't
17:51:22 <mkry> Do not worry about it, I am sure you did what you thought was best.
17:52:34 <mkry> I do certainly thank you that you were concerned enough to actually do that.
17:52:53 <mkry> I would not have expected it from somebody who barely knew me.
17:53:13 <AnMaster> mkry, well, I was trying for good samitarians (spelling?) or such, but the ones in Nevada only had phone number, not email listed
17:53:23 <AnMaster> and I was unable to call that from my mobile phone
17:53:58 <mkry> Hard to believe in this day and age they would not have had some kind of Internet contact.
17:54:21 <AnMaster> mkry, some had. but only in UK, and in a few places in US
17:54:35 <AnMaster> none in Nevada, I think there was one in Connecticut or such
17:54:36 <mkry> Well, we are kind of backwards over here.
17:55:11 <AnMaster> mkry, wouldn't know about that
17:55:18 <AnMaster> after all, you founded the internet
17:55:34 <mkry> Yes, that was back before the country fell apart.
17:55:53 <AnMaster> (of course, it could be that someone else would have done it instead if you hadn't)
17:56:02 <mkry> I am most certain of that.
17:56:53 <AnMaster> when would that falling apart had happened?
17:57:00 <mkry> Nowadays the school system has been so destroyed, we do not get smart enough people here anymore.
17:57:11 <mkry> I would say in the later 80s.
17:57:15 <AnMaster> Nixon and watergate time springs to mind as points where US was definitely rotten
17:57:35 <ais523> the US is really big and heterogenous, sometimes bits can be screwed up while other bits work perfectly
17:57:44 <mkry> That is very true.
17:58:10 <AnMaster> ais523, the issue is what parts are screwed up. How big impact they have.
17:58:29 <AnMaster> as in, Sweden is certainly screwed up in parts
17:58:31 <mkry> California is the worst, and since they are so populous they tend to spread it to the rest of the country.
17:59:18 <AnMaster> mkry, I thought CA voted democratic mostly?
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17:59:43 <AnMaster> mkry, well, less screwed up than sound of the south states at least then
18:00:05 <mkry> Most areas have their problems, hard to find a reasonable place here anymore.
18:00:46 <mkry> Sometimes I wished I had stayed in Switzerland, their society was so much better than here.
18:01:40 <AnMaster> mkry, Switzerland, well with the stuff that happened there recently I'm not sure
18:01:46 <ais523> AnMaster: the issue is that democrats aren't much better than republicans
18:01:59 <mkry> What has happened there? I have not really looked at that place since I left.
18:02:18 <AnMaster> mkry, err, not sure of the English terms, read it in Swedish newspapers
18:02:19 <mkry> Yes, both political parties have their problems.
18:02:28 <AnMaster> the recent vote about forbidding minarets
18:02:38 <AnMaster> and the majority was to forbid
18:02:45 <pikhq> Such as that it's "both" political parties, rather than "all"...
18:03:06 <AnMaster> of course, whenever this is actually legal as a law, or if it contradicts other laws is one of the things being discussed now iirc
18:03:09 <mkry> Changing world everywhere I guess.
18:03:24 <ais523> something like that in the UK wouldn't just have Muslims up in arms, but pretty much every other religion too
18:03:36 <ais523> AnMaster: I do, but wasn't aware it was Switzerland
18:05:24 <AnMaster> mkry, at least Sweden is so far quite okay when it comes to such things. Of course, there are parties against it, and they are gaining
18:06:29 <mkry> I suppose all we can is adapt to the changes, and at least voice our opinions to those in power.
18:06:39 <ais523> yep, and vote against people with opinions we don't like
18:06:54 <ais523> luckily, in the UK the politicians are mostly too busy embezzling money to screw up the country too badly
18:06:55 <AnMaster> or go found a micronation somewhere
18:07:11 <mkry> I just wonder for how long it would work.
18:07:18 <ais523> (I'm one of the few people who actually /likes/ it when they're found raiding national finances for their own pocket, it's so much less bad than what they could be doing)
18:09:53 <AnMaster> there are countries that seems quite okay thing. What about that one in South America. President is a native
18:09:58 * AnMaster tries to remember which one it was
18:16:07 <pikhq> ais523: Yeah, just look at the US.
18:16:51 <pikhq> The politicians get "funding" in exchange for raiding national finances for someone else's pocket, rather than just raiding national finances for their own pocket.
18:21:38 <mkry> brb, have to reboot my machine, have a stuck process I cannot kill.
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18:39:51 <Deewiant> Re. poor education in the USA: http://redtape.msnbc.com/2009/12/when-i-published-gotcha-capitalism-two-years-ago-i-was-in-for-a-big-surprise-as-i-talked-about-systemic-hidden-fee-fraud-al.html#posts
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