00:02:03 <AnMaster> coppro, also, ncurses headers are full of #defines and such
00:03:22 <coppro> AnMaster: Because of name mangling
00:03:34 <coppro> extern "C" names aren't mangled; they're the same in every namespace
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00:03:49 <coppro> but foo::baz and bar::baz are different names; wrapping a header in a namespace won't help
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00:10:40 <AnMaster> coppro, what about a source logical namespace only?
00:11:16 <coppro> AnMaster: there are namespace aliases, but those won't actually help with collisions
00:11:30 <coppro> any name collisions will have troubles at linking regardless of what is done during translation
00:13:21 <AnMaster> coppro, depends on if it is a macro and a function colliding
00:13:44 <coppro> well, inline functions would work if they were always inlined in theory; but that's beyond the standard
00:13:52 <coppro> can't do much about macros though... macros should just die :P
00:16:43 <AnMaster> coppro, that is what ncurses have a lot of
00:16:56 <AnMaster> and why Deewiant is so irritated when doing the external linking from D to it
00:17:06 <AnMaster> because the things he wanted to use were partly macros
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02:52:02 <ehirdiphone> Hopefully I'll start work on my distro soon...
02:54:22 <ehirdiphone> oh, /sys is just /proc redesigned? I was wondering WTF the diff was
03:23:06 <lament> ehirdiphone: do you know what happened with the suicide dude?
03:23:14 <uorygl> Did he commit suicide?
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03:24:12 <ehirdiphone> Said his crisis was over, thanked AnMaster and me
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06:41:17 <zzo38> To any D&D players who do esolangs too: http://pbox.ca/116jd
06:42:49 <zzo38> I don't even understand their response of "ye gods"
06:43:25 <zzo38> But do you understand anything written there, or is something mixed up? Ask questions if you have any. Also, Do these kind of situations occur in your games?
06:44:47 <zzo38> What part(s) do you not understand?
06:45:02 <coppro> figure out what potion?
06:45:12 <coppro> the grammar doesn't help by the way
06:45:38 <coppro> hmm... actually, English isn't your native language, is it?
06:46:07 <zzo38> The potion with the "Suppress Lycanthropy" spell. It makes some effect wear off, but not all of them, not always
06:46:47 <zzo38> And I don't even know what language I learned at first it was a long time ago and my mother says I know three or four, but now I am English, I'm not very good at any others
06:53:16 <zzo38> But this is the actual situation in the game, hopefully I can figure it out
06:54:01 <zzo38> By "the first time" I mean that is the first time of involuntary transform, so you cannot have Control Shape skill or anything like that yet. This is in case it was unclear to you at first
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09:39:49 <ehirdiphone> Since nobody else offered any, any comments on an init(8) design? (first lines of http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.01.01) Admittedly basically pilfered wholesale from someone else, but...
09:40:59 <ehirdiphone> "You fucked up that book!" "I know, isn't it grand."
09:41:30 <mycroftiv> ehirdiphone: an init(8) design for what exactly?
09:42:14 <ehirdiphone> mycroftiv: Well, it's pretty damn generic. Say Linux/BSD. Probably *not* Plan 9 :P
09:42:34 <mycroftiv> too bad, i actually just rewrote the whole plan 9 post kernel load boot and init process
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09:43:58 <ehirdiphone> It's: - Parallel - Dependency based - Extensible - Ridiculously simple
09:44:18 <mycroftiv> ehirdiphone: uh, isnt that the current system that ubuntu and some of the bsds use pretty much?
09:44:54 <mycroftiv> i recall messing with freebsd init system and it was exactly about specifying dependency, not using sys V linear init
09:45:13 <mycroftiv> and i thought the point of the ubuntu upstart project was doing the same thing, pretty much
09:45:43 <mycroftiv> both the freebsd init system and ubuntu upstart i believe work as you described, not along sys V lines, is what im saying
09:45:44 <ehirdiphone> mycroftiv: UpstArt format is what I'm talking about
09:46:12 <mycroftiv> i thought the whole point was to make it parallelized and dependency based rather than linear
09:46:56 <ehirdiphone> But I know my shit; the Ubuntu system is much more complex and vastly inferior.
09:47:30 <mycroftiv> when i look in /etc/init in a 9.10 system, i just see all these conf files that have 'start on' conditions, it looks like
09:47:39 <ais523> the major issue with sysV-style init is they tried to write it mostly in shell
09:47:52 <ais523> and that indirectly leads to most of its other problems
09:49:00 <mycroftiv> huh, i dont see that, i just rewrote the plan9 bootup process to be in rc rather than done in boot.c and init.c mostly because its so much more flexible that way
09:49:58 <ehirdiphone> "Using the shell for complex programs is horrible? Why, what's wrong with rc?"
09:50:16 <ehirdiphone> "Because our shell is rc, you see, and it's wonderful."
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09:57:19 <ehirdiphone> I wonder how many programs compile with David Parsons' maintained libc4
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10:40:16 -!- ehirdiphone has set topic: hubert new year? http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
10:48:31 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, is that part of a knock knock joke?
10:49:04 <ais523> apparently one of the popular spam filters had a rule that emails sent in 2010 or later were probably spam
10:49:11 <ehirdiphone> Orange you glad I didn't say hubert new year
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10:50:27 <ais523> gah, can't remember where I read it
10:51:04 <ais523> but I fear it was a comment, not an article
10:51:15 <ais523> oh, was slashdot, and was an article
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10:51:57 <ais523> http://it.slashdot.org/story/10/01/02/0027207/SpamAssassin-2010-Bug?art_pos=5
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10:53:15 <ehirdiphone> I wonder what % of spam a 1-minute greylist would catch
10:53:57 <ais523> greylisting works because spammers use non-compliant servers to send
10:54:03 <ais523> presumably for efficiency
10:54:46 <ais523> ah, seems they fixed it at the end of June, but forgot to backport
10:55:19 <ais523> lesson: hardcoded dates are /bad/
10:56:30 <ehirdiphone> Greylisting + very simple heuristics about header prescense/contents would filter >60% of spam I bet
10:57:14 <ais523> hmm... isn't 95% of Internet traffic spam?
10:57:18 <ais523> I hate to think what proportion of /email/ that is
10:58:13 <ais523> and turn off all other spam filters?
10:58:21 <ehirdiphone> Put an email addy in several very public places
10:58:24 <ais523> part of the issue is that ISPs spam-filter too, to prevent getting overloaded by all the spam
10:58:35 <ais523> ehirdiphone: could you actually subscribe it to spam lists?
10:58:37 <ehirdiphone> Run a mail server with just 1 minute greylisting
10:58:49 <ais523> or do you have to just hope it's crawled?
11:00:01 <ais523> hmm... I mean, at the actual AS level
11:00:09 <ais523> do the tier-1 providers filter spam going via them, for instance?
11:00:26 <ais523> it'd save them a lot of traffic
11:00:26 <ehirdiphone> No way. They don't have the computing resources.
11:00:42 <ehirdiphone> They have to build special machines just to LOOK at packets
11:00:52 <ais523> bandwidth vs. computer power
11:01:05 <ais523> but yes, tier 1s I'd expect to just ship everything they get
11:01:17 <fizzie> ais523: The monthly bill from my ISP got flagged as spam by their own spam-checker, thanks to that 2010 thing.
11:01:49 <fizzie> Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2010 13:25:14 +0200
11:01:49 <fizzie> * 3.2 FH_DATE_PAST_20XX The date is grossly in the future.
11:01:50 <AnMaster> fuck why can't I located the literature list for spring 2010
11:02:14 <ehirdiphone> = tier 1s are biggest child porn distributors in the world
11:02:15 <fizzie> It got 3.2 points from that, 2.0 points for "body contains a tracking number", bringing it just past the 5.0 threshold.
11:02:38 <ais523> they really don't want to screw up carrier immunity
11:02:47 <ais523> fizzie: tracking number? how does it determine that?
11:03:00 <ehirdiphone> Even deep packet inspection is just for throttling
11:03:51 <fizzie> body TRACKER_ID /^[a-z0-9]{6,24}[-_a-z0-9]{12,36}[a-z0-9]{6,24}\s*\z/is
11:03:51 <fizzie> describe TRACKER_ID Incorporates a tracking ID number
11:04:38 <ais523> and also looks like a pretty trivial one to get round, if you know what it is
11:04:54 <ais523> although, I suppose most legit emails which have something like that are trying to send a one-time hash to someone
11:05:01 <ais523> and so won't trip any of the other filters
11:05:51 <ais523> spams like things like tracking pixels
11:05:59 <ais523> in order to monitor who's reading spam
11:06:11 <ais523> because if someone actually reads spam, they're a better target
11:06:14 <AnMaster> <fizzie> ais523: The monthly bill from my ISP got flagged as spam by their own spam-checker, thanks to that 2010 thing. <-- what 2010 thing?
11:06:27 <fizzie> AnMaster: <ais523> apparently one of the popular spam filters had a rule that emails sent in 2010 or later were probably spam
11:06:47 <ais523> AnMaster: SpamAssassin flags emails sent in 2010 or later as 64% spam
11:06:55 <fizzie> I like the "grossly in the future" description.
11:06:56 <ais523> but it'll take a while before everyone updates
11:07:12 <ais523> heh, 2010 probably /was/ grossly in the future when that rule was written
11:07:16 <ehirdiphone> ais523: A good rule would be "HTML email consisting entirely of one image"
11:07:30 <ais523> ehirdiphone: yep, that's a massively good rule
11:07:38 <ais523> and my mail client's configured to be unable to read those
11:07:40 <fizzie> The rule name also says "DATE_PAST_20XX", which seems to imply 2100-or-later, but apparently the contents were more "2010-or-later".
11:07:48 <ais523> I turned HTML mail support off
11:08:02 <ais523> fizzie: it was a regex
11:08:11 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, they make emails in HTML these days? ;P
11:08:27 <AnMaster> spam seems to be just pretty much random text to me
11:08:35 <AnMaster> maybe the spammy bit is in the html bit
11:08:41 <ais523> spam tends to be random text plus one image that contains the actual message
11:08:52 <ehirdiphone> Html emails would be ok if people didn't abuse them
11:09:10 <ais523> but the sort of people who send HTML email in the first place are the sort of people who abuse them
11:09:13 <ehirdiphone> No <font>, no whole email styling, no layout
11:09:17 <ais523> I hate it when I get an email formatted as if it's a webpage
11:09:27 <ais523> and not just any webpage, but table-layout and designed for one screen res
11:09:38 <ehirdiphone> Then it just lets you put data tables lists bold italics links in comfortably
11:09:51 <AnMaster> great. They have two numbers for the same module
11:10:00 <ais523> using it as an actual markup language for word-processing, etc, would be fine
11:10:06 <AnMaster> depending on what you are studding
11:10:20 <AnMaster> due to different scales used for the marks on them
11:10:21 <ais523> AnMaster: do they carry different credit on the two courses?
11:10:36 <ais523> I was in a module like that, it was worth 10 credits to MEng students but 20 to MSc students
11:10:47 <AnMaster> ais523, as in 3/4/5 vs. U/G/VG
11:10:58 <AnMaster> those are not 1:1 mappings either
11:11:32 <ais523> AnMaster: different degrees, with the same value but different subjects
11:11:36 <ais523> master of engineering, master of science
11:13:30 <fizzie> MtU, "Master of the Universe".
11:14:13 <ais523> something feels /so/ wrong with that regex
11:14:19 <AnMaster> ais523, they should update the rule to 2020
11:14:32 <ais523> it doesn't even catch spam dated 2100!
11:14:37 <ais523> AnMaster: that's what they /did/!
11:15:17 <AnMaster> ais523, why not change the rule to "more than x years in the future from now"
11:15:42 <ais523> no, all they changed was one digit in the regex
11:15:54 <AnMaster> also what about spam from before 1990
11:16:12 <fizzie> Colored diff: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/spamassassin/rules/branches/3.2/72_active.cf?r1=758225&r2=895073&diff_format=h
11:16:12 <AnMaster> ais523, what spam filter software was it?
11:16:43 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I have been trying to track down a book I'm unable to locate
11:16:58 <AnMaster> they didn't even give ISBN or anything
11:17:25 <ais523> no recommending illegal practices
11:18:17 <ais523> #esoteric is bad enough for your brain
11:18:22 <ais523> don't use chemicals as well
11:19:45 <ais523> nor cola, before you ask, I gave it up years ago
11:19:55 <ais523> I do drink lemonade on occasion
11:20:04 <ais523> and do eat chocolate, although it annoys me
11:20:12 <ais523> mostly because there's nothing /else/ to eat here
11:20:37 <ehirdiphone> What's that? Chocolate doesn't count? Oh, because it's legal?...
11:20:40 <ais523> ehirdiphone: you'd be surprised how much I try to cut own on them
11:21:13 <ehirdiphone> Chocolate doesn't damage your health really...
11:21:25 <ais523> yep, that's part of the reason I don't run away from it
11:21:42 <ais523> it's not just health damage that's the issue, it's lack of control over your own thoughts
11:21:58 <ais523> I only got a testosterone rush once, but I /hated/ it
11:22:03 <ais523> and that isn't even a drug
11:22:10 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Eh. I wouldn't say caffeine makes me irrational.
11:22:31 <ais523> although, my sleep patterns are really screwed up atm, I doubt caffeine would make that any better
11:23:42 <ais523> heh, I've been on semiphasic before
11:23:56 <ais523> sleeping once every 2 days, for longer
11:24:03 <ais523> not really deliberately, either
11:24:11 <ais523> and last month, I managed to sleep for 24 hours in a row
11:24:14 <ais523> which I didn't even realise was possible
11:24:33 <ehirdiphone> You're hurting yourself more than could :P
11:24:59 <ais523> I know it's bad for me, and am deliberately trying to get to a consistent sleep pattern
11:25:11 <ais523> for a while I was on a bed-at-7, wake-at-2 pattern, which is surprisingly nice
11:25:28 <ais523> I love the dawn, although more in summer than in winter
11:25:39 <ehirdiphone> If you're unable to stick with monophasic sleep, I seriously suggest polyphasic
11:26:14 <ais523> polyphasic doesn't really fit with commuting to use the Internet
11:27:05 <ais523> risk of injury, too, in all this snowy weather
11:27:09 <ais523> I'm not the most coordinated person
11:27:20 <ais523> I have problems with various objects that most people seem to understand innately
11:27:22 <ais523> like doors, and chairs
11:27:30 <ais523> gah, the trouble I have with doors
11:27:38 <ais523> ehirdiphone: it's not grogginess that's the problem
11:27:43 <ais523> it's needing to commute several times a day
11:27:53 <ais523> one way to use the Internet, the other to sleep
11:28:22 <ais523> it would be worse still if I had to catch the bus, like I used to
11:28:34 <ais523> polyphasic's around 3-4 hour wake periods, isn't it?
11:28:45 <ais523> I'd spend half my working life travelling, not exactly an efficient use of time
11:29:29 <ais523> wouldn't it at least require a bed?
11:29:49 <ais523> besides, the University doesn't have a residential licence, so you can't legally sleep there
11:29:56 <ais523> well, for the office buildings
11:30:20 <ais523> the health and safety rules are different for business and residential buildings
11:30:32 <ais523> I think, for instance, bedrooms are required to have windows opening to outside the building
11:30:41 <ais523> so the fire services can rescue you if there's a fire while you're asleep
11:30:58 <ais523> and so residential buildings are much thinner and snakier than office buildings
11:31:16 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Consider Everyman then. You sleep ~3 hours at night, and like 2-3 naps in the day
11:31:36 <ais523> also, monophasic's required term-time, as I have a teaching job
11:31:44 <ehirdiphone> The inventor of Uberman raises a kid while on Everyman
11:32:16 <ais523> raising a kid seems like a really good use of polyphasic sleep
11:32:36 <ais523> it's not like kids assign you 4-hour marking sessions every week
11:35:55 <ais523> 13 hours, reasonable for monophasic
11:37:01 <ehirdiphone> and i'm always more tired on inverse monophasic
11:37:55 <AnMaster> the fucking book is out of print not to be printed again it seems
11:38:38 <AnMaster> also a rare Swedish book about electronic circuits
11:38:53 <AnMaster> targeting basic level at university
11:39:25 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, the order form on the publishers website look like it is from 1995
11:39:35 <AnMaster> the book was published in 2002 btw
11:39:38 <fizzie> I have a book like that in Finnish; isn't that almost the same?
11:39:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, different language families ;P
11:40:16 <fizzie> But geographically close, and that's what matters, ain't it?
11:40:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, on a scale from geocities (RIP) to amazon, how professional does this website seem: http://www.natura-laromedel.se/
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11:40:50 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, fizzie, look at the order from at http://www.natura-laromedel.se/Pris.html
11:41:17 <AnMaster> notice it really opens in the frame on the top page
11:41:35 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, also there is a fair number of typos on the website
11:41:58 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, this book's publisher's site is a bit more modern: http://www.gaudeamus.fi/?page_id=18
11:42:09 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, "Kretsteknink och fältteori" ~ "Circuit Tecology and field theory" [sic][
11:42:58 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, actually the typo would be okay if it was that guy with the faux Russian accent in UF that said it
11:43:14 <AnMaster> "Kretsteknink" should have been "Kretsteknik"
11:44:13 <AnMaster> anyway, the book I'm supposed to get is not even listed there any more
11:44:58 <AnMaster> as for those gags: what about Discworld. The vampires
11:45:27 * AnMaster found Igors saying sausage quite funny
11:47:22 <ehirdiphone> Did those start early on boringly and then inexplicably never stop?
11:48:43 <ehirdiphone> So, I know someone with a Yggdrasil Linux release from 1993. That they actually bought and used. Linux 1.1, XFree86 3.0, a.out, SysV-based. Not even ext2.
11:50:16 <fizzie> No, but you are guilty by association.
11:51:25 <AnMaster> oh great, someone had scheduled a lab on a bank holiday, I found this and sent a mail asking about it. So it was moved to the day after. When I have another lab at the same time
11:52:04 <AnMaster> so now I'm supposed to be having a lab in in the database course at the same time as I'm having one in C programming
11:52:15 <AnMaster> I guess I'll have to split in half or something
11:55:23 <ehirdiphone> Yggdrasil was one of the first commercial Linux distro
11:55:54 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Hey, they did it in the Harry Potter books
11:56:37 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, well could you nip over to the ministry of magic there and steal one for me?
11:56:47 <ehirdiphone> His box says $4/min phone support apparently
11:57:08 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Pretty sure it was just something Dumbledore has
11:57:43 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, iirc they found one at that ministry in the book where they were fighting in there
11:57:53 <ehirdiphone> "...and now start X again." "Unknown chicken." "Ah, a libc problem. ..."
11:58:29 <ehirdiphone> It would have been fun and worthwhile to make your own Linux in those days
11:58:32 * AnMaster wonders if there is an harry potter wiki
11:59:05 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, those people interested back then would probably DIY mostly I guess
11:59:45 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, what? there is memory alpha, wookipedia, wiki.lspace? Yet no harry potter wiki?
12:00:24 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, lovely spelling correction on iphones
12:00:46 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, how does it work? as in suggestions as you type?
12:01:14 <ehirdiphone> You type, suggestions appear above words as you type. Space or enter confirms a correction automatically.
12:01:20 <AnMaster> my phone has that, as you pretty just once on the button for the letter when composing an SMS and it tries to guess what word it may be, and you can cycle through ones it suggests
12:01:46 <ehirdiphone> How close you were to certain keys when hitting one
12:02:09 <AnMaster> the closeness thing sounds cool
12:02:33 <AnMaster> so there is a virtual keyboard on it you type on? Not hand writing thing
12:03:08 * AnMaster remembers some old Palm with hand writing thing
12:03:27 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: The Apple Newton was king if handwriting
12:03:47 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, surely then apple could reuse some of that technology in the iphone
12:03:49 <ehirdiphone> But keyboards are simply faster and more accurate.
12:04:09 <AnMaster> how much of the screen does the keyboard fill
12:04:38 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, so very small irc window?
12:05:00 <ehirdiphone> Six lines. The keyboard only pops up when you need it anyway
12:05:11 <AnMaster> on irc, wouldn't that be almost constantly
12:05:32 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: I just tap off when i'm not responding
12:05:42 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, what about feedback, I guess there is none?
12:06:30 <ehirdiphone> None. But the large keys + correction beat other phones, with tiny, clacky keys and barely any correction.
12:06:47 <ehirdiphone> You can have audio taps if you like that sort of thing.
12:07:00 <AnMaster> phones really aren't meant for writing a lot on
12:07:28 <ehirdiphone> It does quite commendably for such an edge case as irc
12:08:12 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, even with eye tracking?
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12:17:44 <ehirdiphone> I should write a bookmarks system I actually like
12:20:01 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, "Dasher is not good nor does it work very well, however, it is quite fun", took a while to write
12:21:26 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, well yes for that it is good
12:21:51 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I planned to write "not good for normal usage" but I was unable to locate "for" at that point ;P
12:22:11 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, also writing my name took ages
12:22:27 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, yes I figured out that about "nor"
12:23:32 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, what does the green and yellow boxes mean
12:23:34 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Want some fun? Type "The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog." in Dasher repeatedly
12:23:45 <AnMaster> the green contained comma I found out
12:24:05 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, it learns it as you type you mean?
12:24:21 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, okay, still the green and yellow boxes after the letters
12:24:42 <AnMaster> ah hm yellow seems to be upper case
12:26:05 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, actually there are some fixed special ones at the end. As far as I tell it is: yellow contains upper case letters, green contains comma, period and similar, plus a few I'm not sure about, white is space
12:26:36 <AnMaster> ah seems the dead key bit in é may be in the green area too
12:27:29 <ehirdiphone> Requirements of a good bookmark system: Stores the page on disk. Offers full text search. One category per bookmark, not tags, assigned after the fact (bookmark button requires no input, all automatic); categorise them once every few days, say
12:28:04 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, storing page on disk. So offline cache?
12:28:20 <ais523> what about a tag system that can be used for categories instead if you prefer by only using a single tag; would you approve or disapprove?
12:28:21 <ehirdiphone> Yes. For full text search and in case the page goes offline
12:28:45 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Disapprove. You can think of a hundred tags for every link.
12:29:01 <ehirdiphone> A simple choice from a short list is much less like work.
12:29:34 <ehirdiphone> The idea is: Make saving bookmarks really easy, and finding them really easy.
12:30:34 <ais523> I use bookmarks as a TVtropes queue, works wonders
12:30:45 <ehirdiphone> It's also important that they're in bookmarks.HTML format so I can use them from my browser
12:30:46 <ais523> as in, mark pages I want to read sometime, but not necessarily now
12:30:54 <ais523> means you can read just one page without regrets
12:31:12 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I seem unable to write "café" in dasher
12:31:19 <ehirdiphone> "Search bookmarks" (to http://localhost:12345 or whatever)
12:32:09 <ehirdiphone> which has a symlinks in the browsers directory
12:32:39 <ehirdiphone> also, the HTML page should be styled, eg three column format with category headers
12:32:43 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, very strange that the English model doesn't allow English words ;)
12:33:39 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, wikipedia agrees with me http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caf%C3%A9
12:33:54 <ehirdiphone> you should be able to go to cgi pages on file:// urls
12:34:04 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, "In the United Kingdom and Ireland a café (with the acute accent) is similar to those in other European countries, while a cafe (without acute accent) refers to a Greasy spoon style restaurant"
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12:34:27 <ehirdiphone> So you can have ~/bookmarks/search.cgi without running a server all the time
12:34:59 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, I'm quite sure it would add a lot of complexity few people would use to the browser ;P
12:35:03 <ehirdiphone> file:///home/ehird/bookmarks/search.cgi?query=butts
12:35:37 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, but doesn't lynx or links2 or some such have limited support for it?
12:36:05 <AnMaster> " If built with the cgi-links option enabled, Lynx allows access to a cgi script directly without the need for an http daemon."
12:36:31 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, seems like someone took the idea seriously
12:37:40 <ehirdiphone> hmm... You could train a spam filter to automatically categorise the bookmarks :D
12:38:25 <ehirdiphone> which would work if you bookmark porn and programming, but not, say, physics and mathematics..,
12:39:23 <ehirdiphone> And porn and chemistry? Only if you don't study cummingtonite.
12:52:26 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, Programming and mathematics wouldn't work either
12:53:10 <AnMaster> why would it work better than physics and math?
12:53:14 <ehirdiphone> Theoretical CS and mathematics would probably not be TOO bad either.
12:53:39 <ehirdiphone> Programming involves no lemmas. No mathematical notation.
12:53:50 <ais523> I can imagine web pages which would be both
12:53:58 <ais523> but it's less likely than a web page about one or the other
12:54:47 <ais523> ehirdiphone: how would you categorise http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dijkstra%27s_algorithm
12:55:00 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, Math notation sure. For example I had course literature that discussed discrete mathematics and used lisp to demonstrate some things
13:07:41 <ehirdiphone> would be an acceptable substitute for named ports
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13:34:46 <soupdragon> is singularity possible or just sci fi ?
13:35:22 <ais523> not actually possible, there are fundamental limits on the amount of information in the universe
13:35:40 <ais523> the concept of a self-improving AI is, I think, theoretically possible but hundreds of years out, or maybe even thousands
13:35:56 <ais523> the observable universe is
13:36:15 <ais523> and you can't store information outside the observable portion
13:36:27 <ais523> soupdragon: it's basically a consequence of the speed of light and the expansion of the universe
13:36:43 <ais523> some points are expanding at a rate, relative to you, that means even sending data at the speed of light, you'd never reach them
13:40:31 <ais523> so even if you filled the entire observable universe with black holes, there'd only be a finite amount of information you'd ever be able to store, let alone retrieve
13:40:48 <ais523> (apparently, black holes have the best storage density of any known object)
13:40:57 <ais523> (probably because they have the best density full stop)
14:05:44 <mycroftiv> the black hole information loss problem is really fascinating
14:06:37 <mycroftiv> hawking's semi-recent idea that the 'sum over all histories' means there is no information loss from black holes because in the universe histories where black holes didnt form the information didnt go away makes my head hurt
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14:18:38 <AnMaster> does anyone know if the SQL standard is available for free of if it is "pay for a copy" style?
14:19:15 <oerjan> and then suddenly the logs are back to the old GMT-8 time zone again...
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14:30:41 <ais523> check to see if there are free drafts
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15:15:58 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: Singularity is posdie. ais523 is mistaken about what it means
15:16:16 <ais523> ehirdiphone: technically, it isn't a singularity if it doesn't explode to infinity
15:16:19 <ais523> mathematically, at least
15:16:35 <ehirdiphone> ais523: That is not what a technological singularity is.
15:16:40 <soupdragon> part of me asking this is to understand what it means
15:17:05 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: A self improving ai that accelerates to intelligence far above human
15:18:24 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: If you want to learn more, pointers: Vernor Vinge, Eliezer Yudkowsky, Creating Friendly AI (a work with actual practical implications), Less Wrong,
15:18:48 <ehirdiphone> Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence
15:18:51 <soupdragon> yeah I have Eliezer Yudkowsky bookmarked from when you mentioned before
15:19:24 <ehirdiphone> (namedrop: Douglas hofstadter attended the institute's 2009 summit and gave a talk)
15:20:48 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: anyway one of three things will happen in the next couple hundred years
15:21:28 <soupdragon> ehird read metamorphosis of prime intelletc
15:21:58 <ehirdiphone> vernor vinge, just read his original writing
15:22:38 <soupdragon> I don't know what exactly you're referring to
15:23:41 <ehirdiphone> Singularity will inevitably lead you to the rationalist community, they are almost identical
15:23:56 <soupdragon> you mean, I will become a rationalist?
15:24:12 <ehirdiphone> nt to change how you think forever, forget this
15:24:30 <ehirdiphone> It'll be in the back of your mind even if you dint
15:25:22 <ehirdiphone> First time I ignored it, second time I tried to forget it.. Third time, it's got me
15:26:13 <soupdragon> ehird I don't want to give away plot details
15:26:19 <soupdragon> but I am thinking about this book a lot
15:26:29 <soupdragon> probably because I read it all in one go
15:26:44 <ehirdiphone> I read the wp plot summary. Forgotten a bit but I remember I think some parts
15:27:07 <soupdragon> well it's very similar to Last Question actually
15:27:27 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: Eliezer Yudkowsky happens to be an excellent scifi writer btw - "Rhree
15:28:23 <ehirdiphone> (related protip: read the fake ending then the real one. The links there are kinds confusing)
15:29:04 <soupdragon> right now I'm reading this Vinge thing
15:29:41 <soupdragon> im studying computational linguistics too
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15:33:05 <ehirdiphone> Btw there *is* a lot of overlap of scifi nerds/singularitarians but not all (Kurzweil isn't a scifi dude, just a fool!) - I think it's because the mainstream discourse has no field for this, it's sort of an all encompassing field - and because ideas originating in scifi are cursed to stay there
15:34:19 <soupdragon> yeah sometimes when I read sci-fi and I think about how cool the stuff is and how I want it be real I feel like an insane person that thinks video games are real
15:35:31 <ais523> fiction's made out of setting and plot
15:35:32 <ehirdiphone> It's just a way of weaving a story from our desires
15:35:38 <ais523> the setting differs between genres, the plots don't really
15:36:06 <soupdragon> well I really felt that Last Question and Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect has the /same/ plot
15:36:29 <ehirdiphone> I ought to get round to writing my singularity short story
15:36:34 <soupdragon> different details, one could be the sequel of the other
15:36:45 <ehirdiphone> It isn't very good, but I'll end up writing it anyway
15:37:38 <soupdragon> I didn't really think of it in a symbolic way at all
15:38:08 <ehirdiphone> Ac going into a universe away from universe? Nahh. It's about progress, I think
15:38:46 <ehirdiphone> But we still have the same unanswerable question
15:39:00 <ehirdiphone> and you can only answer it when it's subject is gone
15:40:16 <ehirdiphone> "You can never understand a system fully from the inside"
15:40:49 <ehirdiphone> "No matter how far we progress, we're still bound by the limitation of being in the universe"
15:41:35 <ehirdiphone> I think the basically religious ending (AC becomes pure energy outside the universe and the genesis quote) made me sure it wasn't a literal story as such
15:43:06 <soupdragon> I just read about for the first time a couple weeks ago, came across it in the physics section of the library
15:44:46 <soupdragon> I don't get entropy at all, biogenesis goes completely against (my understanding of) it
15:44:58 <ehirdiphone> You said you study computational linguistics funny because I'm pretty sure any ai will involve a fuckton of it
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15:48:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, ais523: either of you uses lyx?
15:48:41 <ais523> AnMaster: I have it installed, but rarely use it
15:48:43 * AnMaster is having an annoying little problem
15:49:16 <ehirdiphone> Lyx is latex for pussies who can't type \, { and }
15:49:31 <AnMaster> basically there is a paragraph "type" called "LyX-Code" that is similar to <pre> in HTML in it's results. However it also results in the paragraph being slightly indented
15:50:04 <AnMaster> which usually is not very bad, but here when I need it inside a table looks rather strange to say the least
15:50:34 <AnMaster> wondered if anyone knew how to get rid of that 0.5-1 em or so indentation
15:52:53 <ehirdiphone> I suggest using a can of manliness and uninstalling LyX.
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15:54:02 <fizzie> I've been dabbling with LyX for short one-off documents (like single-course homework reports and such) but can't say I've ever used the "LyX-Code" style.
15:54:04 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, it is quite nice I found.
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15:54:34 <fizzie> I have used the "insert/program listing" thing, which I guess uses the "standard" listings package for formatting.
15:55:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, could work, I don't think it had that when I started to use LyX some years ago. Probably explains why I got used to using LyX-code isntead
15:55:57 <fizzie> Yes, it seems it was added in 1.5.0-beta3.
15:56:31 <AnMaster> and yes it seems to solve the issue, thanks
15:56:49 <fizzie> 's a "document/settings/text layout/Listing settings" thing where you can stick any parameters supported by the listings package, if you want frames around listings or whatever.
15:57:22 <AnMaster> hm doesn't seem to be a nice way to make it remember defaults for future listing insertion
15:58:36 <AnMaster> well copy and paste the listing and replace what's in it would work
16:05:12 <fizzie> Also I have a picture of a very big pyramid: http://zem.fi/g2/d/9571-2/p1050097_panorama.jpg -- taken very near (well, there wasn't much room to back off) and mapped with the equirectangular projection, makes it look even bigger than what it actually is. Especially when you look at the tiny tiny people there.
16:05:28 <fizzie> (What do you mean that's not related?)
16:06:59 <soupdragon> can you tell me how it felt to see the pyramids?
16:08:19 <fizzie> A bit underwhelming, to be honest. It's incredibly old, I know, but it's still a pile of rocks that smells very heavily of camel excrement, and is surrounded by a huge mob of all kinds of salespeople and people-not-actually-selling-anything-but-wanting-a-bit-of-money-anyway people.
16:09:02 <fizzie> The not-quite-as-old-but-still-pretty-old tombs in the Valley of the Kings were perhaps more impressive. (Alas, that place had a strict "no photography at all" rule.)
16:10:14 <fizzie> (To be fair, I guess it's not the pyramid itself that's smelly, just the surroundings. I doubt you'd get a camel to walk actually on that thing.)
16:11:31 <fizzie> Here's also one of the source images that went into the composite; this one probably appeals more to people who don't like the fisheye-ness of the first one: http://zem.fi/g2/d/9574-2/p1050103.jpg
16:12:26 <soupdragon> I always imagined that seeing the pyramids would be a really powerful and emotional experience
16:13:29 <fizzie> Not much inside at this point, too.
16:14:23 <ehirdiphone> I'd be too freaked to, irrational fear of mine
16:14:25 <fizzie> It was worth visiting, to be sure. It's just that having to say "no, no" every twenty seconds to someone who tries to get his camel in your photo so that he can ask for money for the privilege detracted from the experience, I think.
16:15:21 <fizzie> No. From what I hear, they're pretty cramped (no room to stand up + bazillion other people trying to push you around).
16:15:32 <ehirdiphone> fizzie: Photo the camel and then DON'T PAY. You will overthrow the state
16:17:17 <fizzie> But that would be against the established social order of things.
16:18:16 <fizzie> We did go inside the Valley of the Kings tombs (well, three of them, as was included in the ticket); those were nice and roomy, and nicely decorated.
16:19:13 <ehirdiphone> soupdragon: just fear of Egyptian mythology I guess
16:20:12 <ehirdiphone> You know, with horrible beasts in the pitch black and untold riches.
16:21:38 <fizzie> No. But it was a bit amusing that about half of the tombs have managed to hit another tomb during the digging, and have had to make awkward 90.degree turns because of that. (Since the tombs were supposed to be hidden, it's not like you could call the municipality for digging directions.)
16:22:33 <fizzie> They've found something like 63 tombs from the not-so-big valley; it probably looks a bit like swiss cheese if you take a cross-section of it.
16:23:04 <fizzie> Everything's been stolen off both the pyramids and the tombs, anyway. We did look at Tutankhamon's stuff in the Egyptian Museum, later. (Also a no-photo place.)
16:24:07 <fizzie> Though I had http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Tut_%28song%29 looping incessantly in my head the whole time we were there.
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19:50:15 <AnMaster> hm would it be possible (in theory) to get a higher resolution scan than "native" resolution of something by taking several scans and moving the scanned thing half a pixel or such in between
19:53:20 <fizzie> "Moving the scanned thing half a pixel" doesn't sound exactly trivial in many cases.
19:53:44 <ais523> AnMaster: apparently, that's how bee vision works
19:54:10 <AnMaster> also what? do they move the flowers half a pixel!?
19:54:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, also what about a stepper motor?
19:54:23 <ais523> their vision only has a few hundred pixels
19:54:42 <ais523> but as they move around, they get more info
19:54:48 <fizzie> There's a term for it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super-resolution
19:55:19 <fizzie> "Multiple-frame SR use the sub-pixel shifts between multiple low resolution images of the same scene. They create an improved resolution image fusing information from all low resolution images, and the created higher resolution images are better descriptions of the scene."
20:04:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, I wonder if you could use hugin for this, in theory
20:05:09 <AnMaster> of course they would have moved many pixels, but as long as they didn't move exactly whole pixels, you have enough images, no parallax and luck with control points it should work
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20:07:21 <fizzie> The control points by definition move full pixels, though; at least I think their positions are integers in the image coordinates. I would guess you'd have more luck with one of the algos especially designed for the purpose.
20:08:35 <fizzie> Speaking of hugin, did some experimenting with HDR+tone-mapping for one panorama that had both direct-sunlight and in-shadow parts, as I wanted details (engravings) visible for both.
20:08:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, did it work better than enfuse?
20:09:27 <fizzie> Yes and no; I did get better contrast in some parts, but also some artifacts.
20:09:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, also, did you make sure the images were linear? iirc that is quite important (check panotools wiki),
20:11:04 <fizzie> Well, I didn't follow any guidelines; it was an ex-tempore thing.
20:13:00 <fizzie> I just took a pile of shots at auto-exposure, fixed WB, then optimized positions only (no exposure) and used hugin's built-in "map images to linear color space and blend to a HDR output" mode, followed by one of the psftmo tone-mapping tools.
20:14:47 <fizzie> At least the luminance histogram for the resulting HDR file was strongly bimodal, which is what I'd have expected; the shadowy and sunlighty portions were at rather different value ranges.
20:14:59 <fizzie> I'll try to find the result.
20:19:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, I mean, as in linear sensor data
20:20:10 <AnMaster> iirc that means gamma linearity = 1
20:20:29 <AnMaster> something to do with not using "color matrix" option in ufraw either
20:21:11 <fizzie> Meh; that doesn't sound like something that couldn't be remapped afterwards.
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20:24:24 <fizzie> http://wiki.panotools.org/HDR_workflow_with_hugin speaks of "unrolling" the images with a calibrate camera response, though the big fat "this is outdated" disclaimer does not fill me with confidence.
20:32:16 <Sgeo> Should I get Visual Studio 2008 Professional Edition if I can get it for free? (I can also get 2010 beta or something)
20:32:36 <Sgeo> No, it's not a beta
20:34:14 <AnMaster> Sgeo, well, how else for free?
20:34:32 <Sgeo> https://www.dreamspark.com
20:34:39 <Sgeo> Some software free for students
20:35:00 <AnMaster> Sgeo, get warning about invalid SSL cert
20:35:10 <Sgeo> I don't get any warnings
20:35:31 <AnMaster> Sgeo, also not free software. Free software = open source
20:35:44 <Sgeo> ahaha y2k bug on the website
20:35:54 <uorygl> Well, he never said "free software", only "software free".
20:36:31 <AnMaster> anyway this dreamspark. looks like MSDNA with psychedelic theme ;P
20:37:20 <fizzie> DreamSpark is for pretty much any student, though; msdnaa is restricted to participating institutions.
20:38:25 <uorygl> DreamSpark uses the "Microsoft" trademark all over the place and its nameserver is at msft.net.
20:38:26 <fizzie> DreamSpark's also a newer thing. I remember downloading *something* from thee, but I've already forgotten what it was, so I'd guess it wasn't anything too useful.
20:39:58 <fizzie> s/thee/there/; I was not trying to speak Ye Olde Butcherede Englishe.
20:40:00 <uorygl> Let me try that again. DreamSpark uses the "Microsoft" trademark all over the place and has a Wikipedia article; therefore, they're legitimate.
20:41:13 <Sgeo> "You may install one copy of the Software made available to You through the Student Program on Your own device, but only (a) to support Your science, technology, engineering, mathematics and/or design (STEM-D) education; (b) in non-commercial STEM-D research; or (c) to design, develop, test, and demonstrate software programs for the above purposes."
20:41:37 <Sgeo> Well, actually, in a sense, _anything_ I do in it supports my education, right? >:D
20:41:48 <uorygl> Of course. What were you planning to do with it?
20:43:08 <Sgeo> Write stuff. Perhaps be able to participate again in the game I was fired from (They're using C# now. I'm no longer the primary programmer, but can participate if I learn C#). Maybe a Second Life bot (libSL is a .NET ... thingy, so I _could_ try to figure out IronPython, but all examples are C#)
20:44:57 <Sgeo> I think I'll just download Visual Studio C# Express for now
20:46:18 <Sgeo> uorygl, sort of a futuristic clone of an Active Worlds game that died in 2005
20:46:46 <Sgeo> I'm technically still irreplacable as the person who knows the most about that game, but am apparently replacable as programmer.
20:49:18 <uorygl> Were you fired for any reason other than not knowing C#?
20:49:59 <Sgeo> uorygl, for not getting the work done
20:50:03 <Sgeo> I kept doing other things
20:50:33 <Sgeo> uorygl, C# is only a requirement because that's what my replacement's most comfortable with
20:51:28 <Sgeo> On New Years Eve, I was in-world, and they were trying to talk to me, but I was in another window. Then, later, I was telegrammed (which plays a sound, getting my attention) that I was replaced
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21:23:51 <Sgeo> Dear Visual Studio C# Express installer: I _just told you_ I don't want to install SQL Server Express
21:27:31 <madbrain> I wonder if tetris is turing equivalent
21:31:17 <Sgeo> That reminds me, I want to investigate Small Worlds to see if the player-created "missions" are turing-complete
21:36:05 <lament> to see the world in a grain of sand!
21:36:10 <lament> and heaven in a wild flower!
21:36:16 <lament> hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
21:36:21 <lament> and eternity in an hour!
21:36:28 <uorygl> madbrain: well, not without infinite storage.
21:36:53 <uorygl> There are two obvious ways to have infinite storage: an infinitely tall board, and an infinitely wide board.
21:37:13 <uorygl> An infinitely tall board would probably function as a single stack, and therefore be insufficient, but I'm not sure.
21:37:46 <uorygl> On an infinitely wide board, the mechanic would have to be modified somehow, as you can't actually complete a row.
21:37:51 <madbrain> uorygl: well, if you had a pattern on notes on the left side, could you do computation with that?
21:38:32 <madbrain> like, left most colum is filled, then the one next to that has a bit pattern
21:39:20 <uorygl> A major question is what it means for Tetris to compute.
21:39:48 <madbrain> well, the input could be a list of blocks
21:39:59 <madbrain> It would probably have to be non-deterministic
21:40:27 <madbrain> ie if your program is well formatted, only one input will not lead to an infinitely growing stack
21:40:38 <uorygl> Perhaps have some "thing" that's solvable if and only if a certain Turing machine halts, plus an algorithm for solving it if it is solvable.
21:41:05 <Sgeo> Hello world!. Sgeo sold his soul and sucked Microsoft's c*** just for ACT01 and
21:42:07 <madbrain> but then the computation becomes how to win, not the playing itself
21:49:27 <uorygl> Well, all you said was "Tetris".
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23:10:21 <AnMaster> <fizzie> DreamSpark is for pretty much any student, though; msdnaa is restricted to participating institutions. <-- I guess MSDNAA has more stuff?
23:10:48 <fizzie> And more expensive stuff, too.
23:12:15 <fizzie> Incidentally, I did my first-ever emergency call a moment ago. There was a fire alarm that kept beeping, but I couldn't pinpoint-localize the source; couldn't figure out anything else than to call the emergency services. They dispatched a fire truck and a full set of firemen to handle the situation; not that they were having much more luck in locating the source of the beeping at first.
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23:13:57 <fizzie> Turns out the people living directly upstairs from us had put a fire alarm on their balcony, for some really unfathomable reason. I don't know why it was beeping, but I guess it might have something to do with the -20 degree weather out there. Anyway, since it was on the balcony, it was pretty audible outside (and somewhat near the door to our balcony, which is directly below), but cleverly you could barely distinguish it at the apartment doors, so it wasn't
23:13:57 <fizzie> so easy to figure out which one it was.
23:14:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah, dreamspark won't have winxp pro x64 or such?
23:14:19 <fizzie> (There was no-one home, either, so they had to wait a while for the service company guy to come open the door.)
23:15:28 <AnMaster> didn't I post a listing of all MSDNAA software some time ago?
23:15:56 <AnMaster> everything from MSDOS 6.1 to windows 20xx server beta something
23:16:04 <AnMaster> and visual studio and what not
23:16:07 <fizzie> Possibly, though I don't remember; anyway, DreamSpark has just Windows Server 2003 and 2008 on the OS side.
23:16:09 <AnMaster> not MS office though, not that I need it
23:16:30 <fizzie> And Visual Studio 2005/2008 Pro and "2010 Ultimate", whatever that is.
23:16:45 <fizzie> (That one's the beta.)
23:16:46 <AnMaster> why does the msdnaa bookmark in firefox has the wikipedia logo
23:16:51 <AnMaster> it isn't a wikipedia article about it
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23:17:02 <AnMaster> nor does the wikipedia logo show up on the actual msdnaa page
23:17:12 <fizzie> The DreamSpark theme has changed a bit; it was equally psychedelic earlier, but more green.
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23:17:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, do you have MSDNAA though?
23:18:16 <AnMaster> whatever it is, it isn't psychedelic
23:18:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, look at http://msdn62.e-academy.com/elms/Storefront/Home.aspx?campus=orebro_appsci
23:19:02 <AnMaster> logged in pages look much the same
23:19:17 <fizzie> Yes. Well, "had". I'm not sure what the status is with us graduate students. Usually we don't have much on the benefits side.
23:19:26 <fizzie> I've seen and used the MSDNAA pages, anyway.
23:19:33 <fizzie> They were pretty utilitarian, yes.
23:20:35 <fizzie> Close enough. Very official, very boring.
23:21:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, and here is the software list (yay view source): http://pastebin.ca/1735570
23:24:18 <AnMaster> I wonder what "x86 and x64 WoW" means
23:24:27 <AnMaster> does it mean the software isn't 64-bit?
23:26:39 <fizzie> Most likely, since WoW64 is that "run 32-bit stuff on x64 windows" thing.
23:30:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, seems visual studio is all 32-bit
23:34:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, shocking that there is no box shot for http://omploader.org/vMzU2YQ
23:35:15 <AnMaster> also it just reminded me of how slow dialup is, that box near the bottom
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23:47:00 <fizzie> Consider me prodded. (I'm almost asleep here.)
23:49:08 <fizzie> 56K dialup is still on the fast-ish side; during the BBS era, I used to have a 2400 bps modem; there was a rule of thumb that it took a bit over an hour to move a megabyte over zmodem.
23:51:33 <fizzie> The BBS of the local computing rag (that is, magazine) allocated only 60 minutes of time per day; fortunately there was a "time bank" where you could deposit up to... I think up to four hours of extra time. So you could download a floppy-sized file easily, by first putting 50 minutes of one day's time in the bank, then withdrawing it the next day; the 1h50min you got that way was just about enough.
23:51:58 <fizzie> (Okay, because zmodem could continue interrupted transfers, it wasn't quite that bad.)
23:52:45 <fizzie> The transfer speeds were a bit less with smodem which everyone used, because smodem was able to multiplex the IRC-like BBS chat channel with the file transfer; you could chat with people while the file transfers were going on.
23:55:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, so people used it rather than zmodem?
23:55:39 <fizzie> At least people who used to hang around the chat channel.
23:55:57 <fizzie> Besides, smodem was a Finnish invention.
23:58:14 <fizzie> "Smodem is a bidirectional protocol for file transfer used between modems, developed by a Finnish company Arisoft. It was mainly used in BBS systems, because it could transfer files in both directions at the same time, and allowed users to chat with each other with AriSoft's GroupChat software. Other popular bidirectional protocols, such as BiModem, HS/Link and HydraCom, also offered a chat option with the operator but not with system's other users."
23:58:36 <uorygl> You know, I can think of one think I would use a floppy disk for.
23:59:03 <uorygl> Of all the player pianos I remember seeing, all of them took floppy disks.
23:59:19 <augur> my player pianos take rolls of paper.
23:59:22 <augur> as do my computers.
23:59:37 <uorygl> Your player pianos are obsolete.
23:59:44 <augur> thats the point! :D
23:59:54 <uorygl> My player pianos are not obsolete!