00:00:56 <soupdragon> do you mean unrealistic or just stupid?
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00:07:41 <ehird> soupdragon: lemme get a link for you
00:09:34 <ehird> http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=ddv7939q_20gw8h9pcx
00:09:40 <ehird> great singularity scifi
00:09:52 <ehird> by steve yegge (yes, that steve yegge)
00:10:50 <soupdragon> yeah I think I enjoyed some of yegges blog
00:10:58 <ehird> it's nothing like his blog, anyway
00:11:04 <ehird> guy should become an author
00:11:13 <ehird> also most people think the singularity is stupid/unrealistic/harmful/whatever, it's just an intuitively wrong-seeming concept
00:11:27 <ehird> that's what you get for abnormal thought :P
00:12:51 <ehird> Gregor: bacon + anything non-bacon is inferior to solely bacon
00:12:57 <ehird> it's like you're diluting the bacon with an inferior concept
00:13:07 <Gregor> Baconnaise actually contains no bacon :P
00:13:09 <ehird> the same goes for chocolate, which makes bacon chocolate the only exception
00:13:16 <AnMaster> I agree with ehird on this for mayonnaise
00:13:31 <ehird> and if you want chocolate bacon, well
00:13:32 <ehird> http://www.vosgeschocolate.com/category/bacon_and_chocolate
00:13:34 <Gregor> I am eating a turkey sandwich made with it /right now/.
00:13:45 <AnMaster> ehird, also garlic. This baconchocolategarlic is also allowed
00:13:50 <ehird> I've never actually had mayonnaise. True facts.
00:14:10 <ehird> AnMaster: No, baconchocolategarlic would just be awful.
00:14:16 <Gregor> ehird: You either don't eat sandwiches, or use "sandwich spread"
00:14:22 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway nougat (of the right type, there are several unrelated things called nougat) > chocolate
00:14:25 <ehird> Gregor: Or am a being of pure energy.
00:14:34 <ehird> These are the three realistic options.
00:14:37 <Gregor> ehird: Which would imply the former.
00:14:58 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean this type of nougat: http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:Nougat_sweets.jpg
00:14:59 <ehird> Gregor: Maybe I absorb sandwiches but it strips all the mayonnaise out due to a computer glitch.
00:15:09 <AnMaster> ehird, not this type: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nougat.jpg
00:15:27 <ehird> Nougat is nice but chocolate > nougat.
00:15:49 <AnMaster> ehird, I disagree. Also the second one doesn't look like nougat at all
00:15:51 <Gregor> Controversial statement:
00:15:54 <AnMaster> ehird, what about white chocolate?
00:16:00 <Gregor> White chocolate is a lie.
00:16:03 <Gregor> And all who like it must die.
00:16:10 <ehird> White chocolate isn't bad... it's just not chocolate.
00:16:18 <ehird> Vanilla is a nice taste.
00:16:22 <ehird> I think it's about equal to chocolate.
00:16:25 <ehird> Different situations.
00:16:33 <ehird> Vanilla is so underappreciated, though.
00:16:38 <AnMaster> Gregor, depends. If it is fresh and not dried
00:16:48 <AnMaster> that's hellishly expensive though
00:16:52 <ehird> We're talking about flavours, not the source materials
00:16:55 <Pthing> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_flying_saucer
00:17:00 <Pthing> The British Rail flying saucer, officially known simply as space vehicle, was a proposed spacecraft designed by Charles Osmond Frederick. A patent application was filed by Jensen and Son on behalf of British Rail on 11 December 1970 and granted on 21 March 1973.[1][2][3] The flying saucer originally started as a proposal for a raiseable platform. However, the project was revised and edited, and by the time the patent
00:17:00 <Pthing> was filed had become a large passenger craft for interplanetary travel.[4]
00:17:05 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah but I meant for home made vanilla icecream
00:17:50 <AnMaster> Gregor, home made vanilla icecream on *fresh* vanilla pods is wonderful
00:17:55 <Gregor> Raisable platform -> INTERPLANETARY TRAVEL
00:18:08 <ehird> Getting into space is just raising the platform really, really high, right?
00:18:20 <ehird> And if you can go upwards you can go leftwards and rightwards and forwards.
00:18:46 <ehird> Honestly, NASA should just take consumer jets and fly them directly upwards.
00:18:53 <ehird> How hard can it be?
00:20:16 <ehird> Why are you hitting yourself?
00:20:16 <AnMaster> ehird, because they need air at high pressure, it won't work above a certain altitude
00:20:22 <ehird> Stop hitting yourself.
00:20:26 * ehird puts fingers in ears
00:20:28 <AnMaster> you need ramjets for high altitudes
00:20:44 <AnMaster> like SR-71 Blackbird, had a ramjet
00:21:05 <ehird> I know you are but what am I?
00:21:33 <ehird> Okay, I've gotta stop now before I have to commit seppuku.
00:21:38 <AnMaster> anyway the principle behind a jet engine is very interesting I find.
00:22:52 <AnMaster> and even ramjets will only take you so far. At some point you need a rocket engine (or a space elevator, or space bolas or whatever... but a jet engine just won't cut it).
00:23:16 <AnMaster> also, to actually go straight up would require a lot more power
00:23:33 <ehird> I like to imagine space elevators are exactly as Roald Dahl imagined.
00:23:43 <ehird> Just press floor "Mars".
00:24:29 <ehird> "Up and Out" gets you into the glorious Earth air.
00:24:32 <AnMaster> the engines of a 747 would be unable to lift a 747 *straight up*
00:24:37 <ehird> "Really Up and Really Out", however...
00:24:54 <AnMaster> since you get no lift from wings then. which is why a 747 still files normally
00:25:45 <AnMaster> (note, this is simplified, it ignores drag, lift from the body itself and several other details)
00:26:32 <AnMaster> (though for a 747 the lift from the body (or fuselage as is the technical term), would be very small compared to that generated by the wings)
00:26:44 <ehird> All we need is augur to talk about linguistics and all two-way conversation will finally die.
00:27:07 <augur> im busy DOING linguistics
00:27:17 <ehird> In the sexual sense or the academic sense?
00:27:44 <AnMaster> ehird, what, is "doing linguistics" innuendo?
00:28:13 <ehird> do, v. see have sexual intercourse with.
00:28:31 <ehird> Ouch? You might want to go and see a doctor about that.
00:28:50 <AnMaster> ehird, "ouch that I didn't spot that, since I knew about that meaning"
00:29:55 <AnMaster> ehird, also: time for ethernet over firewire
00:30:04 <AnMaster> going to try it with the new firewire stack in linux kernel
00:30:20 <AnMaster> wish me best of luck: "(EXPERIMENTAL)"
00:30:31 <ehird> And with that, he died.
00:30:54 <ehird> Gone but... uh, and forgotten.
00:31:14 <AnMaster> ehird, it would be kernel oops at worst
00:31:32 <ehird> Unless it hit a hardware bug that caused it to catch on fire, thus causing e.g. your PSU to explode.
00:31:36 <augur> ehird, in an academic sense :P
00:32:00 <ehird> "Kernel oops; three fatalities."
00:32:05 <ehird> Aww, I thought AnMaster said that, not augur.
00:32:09 <ehird> Which made it funnier.
00:33:01 <AnMaster> ehird, what would it have meant if I had said it. It doesn't seem to make sense there.
00:33:19 <ehird> Well, like how in functional programming we model both errors and non-termination as one value, _|_.
00:33:41 <ehird> So, you'd be saying that academically, hardware catching on fire thus making your CPU explode would be considered a kernel oops.
00:33:49 <ehird> Thus "Kernel oops; three fatalities.", and now the frog is dead.
00:34:16 <ehird> ("Explaining a joke is like dissecting a frog: you understand it better, but the frog dies in the process." —Mark Twain)
00:34:49 <AnMaster> ehird, also in that case both should be considered failure modes. No difference should be made between a program returning the error code 1 and the system exploding
00:35:15 <ehird> "Error: Something went wrong. Are you on fire? [Y/n] "
00:35:27 <ehird> "Oh dear. Something went badly wrong."
00:35:37 <ehird> "Alright then. You can reboot now."
00:35:57 <AnMaster> ehird, what if you aren't on fire yet but the desk is?
00:45:33 * ehird plays some dna maze
00:45:58 <AnMaster> ehird, btw image editors creating *~ files
00:46:32 <ehird> Creating *~ files in general is irritating.
00:46:38 <ehird> Put it in some other directory.
00:46:57 <ehird> Put it in ~/.imged/autosaves/somemangleldpath
00:47:08 <AnMaster> (due to you editing large files of course)
00:47:17 <AnMaster> ehird, issue, doesn't work well over different file systems
00:47:27 <AnMaster> since before it could just move the old file and write a new
00:47:31 <AnMaster> now it needs to copy it in theory
00:47:38 <ehird> Work out some solution.
00:47:44 <ehird> But don't put it in the same directory.
00:47:45 <AnMaster> ehird, which is irritating for 40 MB files
00:47:54 <AnMaster> ehird, well, "don't create *~" is my idea
00:48:05 <AnMaster> just remove it once you synced the new file to disk
00:48:13 <AnMaster> ehird, remove it after the new file is fully written
00:48:26 <ehird> this wallpaper background is nice and soothing
00:48:31 <ehird> it's like i'm using ubuntu without the ugly
00:50:22 <ehird> Ugh, imgur compressed it for being too big.
00:50:28 <ehird> All image hosts eventually suck exactly the same...
00:50:39 * ehird goes for trusty old xs.to
00:51:13 <ehird> That would force a download.
00:51:21 <AnMaster> ehird, well I would just gimp on the url
00:51:43 <ehird> ffffff it did the same
00:51:58 <ehird> Do you want the wallpaper or a screenshot with it, btw?
00:52:09 <ehird> If the former I could just link you
00:53:03 <ehird> http://filebin.ca/tonxzc/Picture1.png
00:53:36 <AnMaster> ffs. it stopped working once it got hit with a large transfer
00:54:43 <ehird> The file is just 2 megs or so
00:54:58 <ehird> That's an intentional effect
00:55:02 <ehird> Only on the background
00:55:38 <ehird> Here's a link if you want it:
00:55:51 <ehird> http://lambda.nirv.net/m/files/Love.png
00:57:00 <ehird> http://lambda.nirv.net/m/screenshots/20091201.png Here's a wonderful screenshot of Emacs + chocolate-rain-theme + that background
00:57:09 <ehird> (I use both now, because darn they're pretty.)
00:58:30 <AnMaster> ehird, also that bg is an awkward size
00:59:26 <AnMaster> ehird, I said size, not aspect ratio
00:59:37 <ehird> What's awkward about it
00:59:42 <ehird> It's big enough for most monitors
00:59:46 <ehird> Your DE can scale the background for you
01:00:23 <ehird> The new iMac is 16:9.
01:00:39 <ehird> All other Macs and Apple Displays, plus old iMac models, are 16:10.
01:00:44 <ehird> (That is, after they were 4:3.)
01:01:35 <ehird> Long live 3:4 or something.
01:01:52 <ehird> That won't look square.
01:02:11 <ehird> AnMaster: Seriously; make an NxN square in your favourite image program.
01:02:20 <ehird> Note how it does not appear to be a perfectly measured bastion of wholeness.
01:02:26 <ehird> In fact, it seems inequal.
01:03:21 <ehird> Yes, but don't analyse it like that.
01:03:28 <ehird> Just look at it and note it seems to be fatter than it is tall
01:03:37 <AnMaster> ehird, no it looks taller than fatter
01:03:44 <ehird> The other way around then :P
01:04:00 <AnMaster> for some it is fatter than taller
01:04:21 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway how to make something that looks square... 4:3 does not
01:04:36 <ehird> Don't bother, human vision isn't square
01:05:08 <AnMaster> ehird, how then can we even have a concept of "looking square"?
01:05:16 <ehird> Either optimise for A? (hey, fizzieuniversity :P) sort of dimensions for text, or optimise for widescreen for useful computing workspace.
01:05:31 <ehird> We see "square pixels", as nonsensical a concept as that is
01:05:38 <ehird> Our whole vision just is rectangular... sort of.
01:05:45 <ehird> Point is, vision is obviously widescreen
01:05:58 <AnMaster> ehird, I heard someone suggest that hexagonal pixels would be better
01:06:18 <AnMaster> ehird, as in a serious scientist interviewed in radio
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01:06:40 <AnMaster> ehird, he talked about how it could better represent photos
01:07:04 <AnMaster> and also about packing pixels closer, resulting in a higher DPI feeling
01:07:06 <ehird> Cool, Esolang forum activity.
01:07:10 <ehird> Downside: It's not about an esolang.
01:07:14 <AnMaster> (or was it truly higher dpi? don't remember)
01:07:23 <ehird> Just a non-esoteric language.
01:07:30 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/forum/kareha.pl/1262953236/l50
01:07:47 <ehird> Presumably they think it's "experimental" enough to be esoteric.
01:09:33 <ehird> 160x55 is a nice Emacs size.
01:10:05 <ehird> If you split it vertically, you get two 26-line windows, which is quite a bit; a lot better if you resize one, of course.
01:10:15 <ehird> Horizontally it handles a whole two 80-column windows, so no line wrapping.
01:10:28 <ehird> (55 was chosen because it lets Emacs be in a nice place and not intrude on my Dock.)
01:11:40 <ehird> Damn ehirdOS is so beautiful. :|
01:12:07 <ehird> It's so much better now that I basically pilfered wholesale the ideas for the underlying language from Luke Palmer.
01:12:10 <ehird> Beautiful inside and out!
01:13:40 <ehird> Uhh. Is there a way for me to say "you wouldn't understand" in a non-offensive, not-really-worth-telling-you way?
01:13:43 <ehird> soupdragon: pretty much
01:13:57 <ehird> AnMaster: You wouldn't understand, then.
01:14:03 <soupdragon> AnMaster, it's basically combinator logic with a crazy type system, as I undertand it
01:14:10 <ehird> dana is more than just the lang though
01:14:15 <ehird> it's the frp approach to the entire os
01:14:18 <AnMaster> soupdragon, interesting for an OS
01:14:30 * soupdragon has no idea how it (theoretically) works
01:14:40 <AnMaster> I can't imagine how it applies to an OS either
01:14:42 <ehird> dependent types and magic
01:14:55 <ehird> AnMaster: See, when I said "you wouldn't understand", I was trying to avoid wasting your time.
01:15:18 <AnMaster> ehird, well I wouldn't trust you on that would I? :P
01:15:38 <ehird> Considering it was my explanation you were asking for, I'm probably pretty accurate on matters of it.
01:16:16 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, but I wouldn't trust you on what I understand and not
01:16:59 <ehird> But considering I would use terminology that I enjoy using, and I have past experience trying and failing to discuss with you using such terminology, I'm an accurate predictor of whether you would understand one of my explanations or not.
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01:21:48 <AnMaster> ehird, plus weren't you going for lots of other things before?
01:22:12 <ehird> ehirdOS: a concrete design, set in stone; unchanging in its precise perfection.
01:22:20 <ehird> There are too many implementations for me to break them wantonly like thaat.
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05:28:33 <soupdragon> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MohsScaleOfScienceFictionHardness?from=Main.MohsScaleOfSciFiHardness
05:28:47 <soupdragon> I've read snow crash and it's like up at the top that's crazy
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09:11:49 <coppro> augur: is there a term for when a proper noun is formed by application of an article to a common noun, such as 'the Universe'?
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13:07:37 <olsner> the the is an article, so maybe it could be articulation
13:40:12 <AnMaster> olsner, isn't that related to pronouncing things? At least I think the similar Swedish word is?
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13:41:39 <AnMaster> of course what olsner said _could_ have been punification, not sure
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14:51:02 <cheateur> if i'm going for high performance clusters, should i choose erlang or haskell?
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15:05:24 <AnMaster> cheateur, those aren't really esolangs are they?
15:06:24 <AnMaster> but anyway, it would depend on what you would use the cluster for
15:07:59 <cheateur> yeah, but i didn't want to ask in either of their channels
15:08:22 <cheateur> AnMaster: what would the different uses be that you could single out?
15:09:22 <AnMaster> cheateur, number crunching, or handling of lots of concurrent server threads
15:09:44 <AnMaster> I don't know enough about haskell, but I know erlang is way better at the second one
15:10:42 <AnMaster> there would likely be lots of other possibilities too
15:10:51 <cheateur> i would say concurrent server threads
15:11:35 <cheateur> is it just maturity of the platform?
15:11:38 <AnMaster> cheateur, remember erlang was originally designed to run on telephony switches. The actual data moving was back then done in hardware.
15:11:55 <AnMaster> erlang uses message passing, not shared memory
15:12:56 <AnMaster> cheateur, it just isn't optimised for number crunching style of workloads
15:13:20 <cheateur> and why is message passing better for high concurrency servers?
15:15:15 <AnMaster> cheateur, not in general, but it is optimised for that when it comes to thread scheduling and such. Each thread has a separate heap (to simplify garbage collection on SMP systems, no need to stop other threads from running). The exception is large "binaries" (a data type for binary data) which is stored on a shared heap and ref-counted. So sending other large data types between processes need to copy
15:15:49 <AnMaster> cheateur, it has good language level and library level support for server style processes
15:16:08 <cheateur> ah, so it's not that it has *concepts* that allow better performance
15:16:22 <cheateur> it's that it is just better written
15:16:31 <AnMaster> cheateur, well, it is well tuned for that load. And it is easy to write that style of thing
15:16:38 <AnMaster> cheateur, also you can reload code on the fly
15:16:51 <AnMaster> without restarting current processes
15:17:32 <AnMaster> they are sent an "update you data structures if required and jump to the new code" style message. If you use the standard library modules to implement your server processes then that becomes very easy
15:17:53 <AnMaster> cheateur, well, erlang is a VM, it would be way harder if it wasn't for the VM
15:18:11 <AnMaster> but for haskell, I don't know it well enough
15:18:34 <AnMaster> cheateur, erlang also have almost seamless support for distributing stuff over several nodes
15:18:41 <cheateur> i'm just looking at learning a new language
15:18:54 <cheateur> C looks like it'll be fucking boring for no reason
15:19:21 <cheateur> and most stuff i do is web or service oriented
15:19:38 <cheateur> so i thought about something like haskell or erlang to write nice big services
15:19:40 <AnMaster> (almost, as in you need to tell it to connect to the other node, and a few internal details can be tricky, but generally if you do things like you should and don't mess in semi-internal stuff it won't be an issue)
15:20:00 <AnMaster> but you pass it a message the same way as a local process
15:20:32 <AnMaster> cheateur, well, I don't know if haskell even has support built in for distributed nodes.
15:21:39 <cheateur> AnMaster: if i know php, python, and probably almost everything web-related, what language would you suggest to me?
15:22:15 <AnMaster> cheateur, do you know any esolang? Any functional language?
15:22:30 <cheateur> bear in mind i need to be able to make money with it too
15:22:34 <AnMaster> hm if you don't know an esolang what are you doing in here? :)
15:23:44 <AnMaster> well, both erlang and haskell are functional languages. That will be hard if you only know the imperative approach. Haskell even more so.
15:24:08 <AnMaster> maybe starting with scheme to get a general idea of functional programming would be a good idea.
15:24:28 <cheateur> i'm a mathematician, most programming languages aren't that difficult
15:24:28 <cheateur> i've learnt asm by using a debugger
15:24:54 <AnMaster> cheateur, erlang uses tail recursion for loops and such. Also it is single assignment as in math (you don't do x=2; x=x+1; in math if you see what I mean)
15:25:03 <soupdragon> you're another of these folks that think mathematicians are gods
15:25:05 <AnMaster> I think the same goes for haskell
15:25:20 <cheateur> dunno if i want to go with scheme, it feels like a sort of halfway solution
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15:25:54 <AnMaster> cheateur, it is a nice educationish language for learning the basic concepts of functional programming.
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15:26:29 <cheateur> AnMaster: i know that in erlang variables are immutable
15:26:43 <AnMaster> cheateur, but if you know enough of math concepts then it shouldn't be too hard
15:26:55 <AnMaster> but for making money of it, who knows. I can't answer that
15:27:32 <cheateur> AnMaster: but i thought this only had to do with the 'place in memory', not the handle
15:27:57 <cheateur> i.e. you could do x=1; x=2 but then you'd have two x's and the first one would be dereferenced and would just be 'garbage'?
15:28:35 <AnMaster> well there is no assignment as such in erlang. There is pattern matching. Meaning you can do something like {true,{X,Y,Z}} = somefunction()
15:28:42 <cheateur> i.e. the '1' would still exist, but it would be dereferenced.
15:28:43 <AnMaster> where {} is the notation used for tuples
15:29:21 <cheateur> AnMaster: is there a one-click way for me to start writing erlang *now*?
15:29:59 <AnMaster> cheateur, that would try to assign the values to X,Y,Z. But if X was set before already then it would fail of the value of X wasn't the same as before. This can be used for some really cool things.
15:30:16 <AnMaster> cheateur, hm, I think they have a windows download on erlang.org, but I'm on linux myself
15:30:38 <cheateur> i'm on linux normally too, but ubuntu is gay and it blew up.
15:31:35 <AnMaster> cheateur, also I believe the first few chapters of some of the erlang books are available online for free
15:31:53 <cheateur> no, it's just that it blew up on my laptop
15:32:17 <cheateur> luckily i kept windows as dual boot
15:32:24 <AnMaster> ah yes there are a few extracts at http://www.pragprog.com/titles/jaerlang/programming-erlang
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15:37:30 <AnMaster> oerjan, btw I didn't get the joke in iwc yesterday
15:38:11 <AnMaster> cheateur, webcomic we both reads.
15:38:18 <oerjan> cheateur: iiuc haskell's concurrency is optimized for many cores with shared memory, it's not really designed for distribution
15:44:25 <oerjan> AnMaster: Paris is pointing out that this proves what she already knew...
15:45:30 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh right. Wasn't very funny. Thought it was some pun on "nuts"
15:46:55 * oerjan hands soupdragon a delicious cyanide cake
15:47:13 <oklopol> oerjan the norwegian dragonslayer
15:47:54 <oerjan> well oerjan supposedly is a mangled form of "george", so that fits
15:48:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, huh that was quite a bit of mangling
15:48:17 <oklopol> our "george" is "yrjö", which means "puke"
15:48:30 <oklopol> pronounced a bit like oerjan
15:48:44 <oerjan> AnMaster: i assume it's via swedish göran
15:48:47 <AnMaster> oklopol, wait a sec, is that a name in Finland?
15:49:03 <AnMaster> oerjan, we have both Örjan and Göran.
15:49:30 <oklopol> there's a swedish name that means gay, and there's and english name that means dick, not sure how it's interesting
15:49:42 <oerjan> well so what. Odd, Even and Bent are names in norway :)
15:49:56 <AnMaster> oklopol, so it's like being called "puke"? As in throwing up?
15:50:13 <oklopol> as i said, not at all weird
15:50:19 <olsner> Roar is also a norwegian name
15:50:23 <AnMaster> oklopol, must be rare that anyone is called that?
15:50:36 <oklopol> a bit. but there are still a lot of "dicks"
15:50:46 <AnMaster> oklopol, if "yrjö" both means puke as well as being a name.
15:51:00 <oklopol> are you reading what i say?
15:51:04 <AnMaster> olsner, yes bit it meaning something else in another language isn't as bad as meaning something else in the *same* language
15:51:23 <AnMaster> oklopol, I hope so. I was just trying to double check this
15:51:29 <oklopol> how is puke worse than "gay" or "dick"
15:51:40 <oklopol> (given that both are insults)
15:51:53 <oklopol> calling someone puke is not an insult
15:52:00 <oerjan> as for that, i understand Homo used to be a norwegian surname.
15:52:01 <AnMaster> oklopol, good point. But I don't know which word "there's a swedish name that means gay" you mean
15:52:31 <oerjan> soupdragon: it is frequently used as one.
15:52:38 <soupdragon> then why is calling someone puke not an insult?
15:52:57 <oklopol> gay makes less sense as an insult than puke, yes.
15:53:16 <oklopol> just like "idiot" makes less sense as an insult as "guy i don't like"
15:54:14 <oklopol> and this is english-specific, i don't know whether "gay" is an insult everywhere
15:54:30 <oklopol> my guess is it is in most places
15:54:52 <oklopol> and my guess is puke isn't an insult anywhere
15:55:24 * oklopol waits for augur to tell him exact statistics
15:55:49 <oerjan> there were supposedly these norwegian professors named Ås and Sørås. one day they were both called to the information desk of an english-speaking airport...
15:56:16 <augur> soupdragon: calling something gay is indeed an insult. atleast in american english.
15:56:16 <oklopol> augur: i just usually assume you have something to say about anything even remotely having to do with linguistics
15:56:45 <oerjan> (hint: ignore all accents, then pronounce like an american)
15:58:03 <oerjan> it's a perfectly adequate norwegian surname, means southern hill
15:58:29 <oerjan> well assuming you're not mangling the characters on purpose...
15:59:07 <AnMaster> oklopol, S<Norwegian/Danish o with dash through it>r<a with ring>s
15:59:09 <oerjan> oklopol: you're not reading utf-8 correctly
15:59:24 <oklopol> yes, i still haven't gotten mirc to render it correctly.
15:59:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, I thought you had problems with unicode?
16:00:14 <oklopol> i give up, what's it supposed to sound like?
16:00:58 <augur> oh if only you all knew IPA/XSAMPA! D:
16:01:10 <AnMaster> oklopol, without the dots it is spelled like "Soras", but I guess it is supposed to be "Sir as"
16:01:26 <AnMaster> that would be the only way it is funny
16:01:32 <AnMaster> but o and i aren't really close
16:01:36 <oerjan> AnMaster: yes but irssi reasonably transliterates the latin-1 subset
16:01:43 <oerjan> and approximates a bit more
16:01:54 <oklopol> sir makes no sense if you drop the umlaut
16:02:31 <oklopol> for some reason i wanted a single word
16:03:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, why professors I wonder. And it doesn't make sense for both to believe it is to them unless it is actually interpreted by "sir" as one
16:03:52 <oerjan> AnMaster: this is _supposedly_ a true story
16:04:10 <oerjan> although i've probably mangled it
16:04:39 <oerjan> and i was told it in university, by professors
16:05:25 <oerjan> so if it was true, they were probably acquaintances
16:07:55 <oerjan> <soupdragon> you're another of these folks that think mathematicians are gods <-- well DUH
16:08:12 <oklopol> professors travel a lot, so if there were professors with such names, it's not exactly that improbable for that to happen
16:08:25 <oklopol> when was that, i wanna see context
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17:51:22 <ehird> 21:28:33 <soupdragon> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MohsScaleOfScienceFictionHardness?from=Main.MohsScaleOfSciFiHardness
17:51:22 <ehird> 21:28:39 <soupdragon> needs more hard sci fi :(
17:51:23 <ehird> it's not my fault you're finishing rainbows end before listening to my suggestions :P
17:54:37 <ehird> 06:50:41 <cheateur> hey guys
17:54:37 <ehird> 06:51:02 <cheateur> if i'm going for high performance clusters, should i choose erlang or haskell?
17:54:37 <ehird> ignore AnMaster he just likes erlang :)
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17:54:56 <ehird> both are about the same in potential; haskell is a better language and your code will be more reliable in it. however erlang is far more mature as far as its concurrency support goes
17:55:08 <ehird> if you really do have a cluster and you want to highly perform on it, I'd go for erlang until haskell's clustery support improves
17:55:14 <ehird> (its single-machine concurrency support is great, though)
17:56:01 <ehird> 07:20:32 <AnMaster> cheateur, well, I don't know if haskell even has support built in for distributed nodes.
17:56:01 <ehird> 07:20:52 <cheateur> i would assume so
17:56:01 <ehird> note that AnMaster doesn't really know anything about haskell
17:56:07 <ehird> also, no, it doesn't, that's why we have excellent libraries.
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17:56:56 <ehird> 07:21:39 <cheateur> AnMaster: if i know php, python, and probably almost everything web-related, what language would you suggest to me?
17:56:56 <ehird> 07:22:15 <AnMaster> cheateur, do you know any esolang? Any functional language?
17:56:56 <ehird> 07:22:21 <cheateur> no
17:56:57 <ehird> Uh... give up now. If you don't know functional programming, you will be useless at both Erlang and Haskell unless you learn functional programming simultaneously.
17:56:57 <ehird> 07:22:30 <cheateur> bear in mind i need to be able to make money with it too
17:57:14 <ehird> You can make a lot of money with haskell... just not at some dumbfuck Web 2.0 company.
17:57:37 <AnMaster> is it still at 2.0? I would have thought 2.1 would have been released by now
17:57:39 <ehird> 07:24:28 <cheateur> i'm a mathematician, most programming languages aren't that difficult
17:57:39 <ehird> Hubris and ego said by someone who has only used imperative languages.
17:58:11 <ehird> If you're so intelligent, why not use Haskell's official Least Gentle Tutorial? http://www.haskell.org/tutorial/
17:58:46 <ehird> 07:25:03 <soupdragon> you're another of these folks that think mathematicians are gods
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17:59:57 <ehird> I was interested in helping him until "I don't know any functional languages", "I know everything imperative and web-related" and "I'm a MATHEMATICIAN, every programming language is easy to learn!".
18:00:22 <ehird> 07:27:57 <cheateur> i.e. you could do x=1; x=2 but then you'd have two x's and the first one would be dereferenced and would just be 'garbage'?
18:00:34 <ehird> 07:29:26 <cheateur> i'm on 'doze
18:00:45 <ehird> 07:29:21 <cheateur> AnMaster: is there a one-click way for me to start writing erlang *now*?
18:00:45 <ehird> 07:29:26 <cheateur> i'm on 'doze
18:00:51 <ehird> Okay, now I'm interested in helping you a *negative* amount.
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18:03:23 <ehird> 08:01:10 <AnMaster> oklopol, without the dots it is spelled like "Soras", but I guess it is supposed to be "Sir as"
18:03:40 <ehird> Or, you know... sore ass
18:03:47 <oklopol> to be fair, "sör" is pronounced "sir" in swedish
18:05:53 <oklopol> well not sure that's an excuse, "sor" is still pronounced closer to "sore" than "sir" in swedish.
18:06:11 <ehird> "ignore the accents"
18:06:15 <ehird> "and pronounce as an american"
18:06:19 <ehird> Slight hints there
18:18:29 <oklopol> i'm not sure AnMaster compartmentalizes that well
18:18:39 <oklopol> then again i might be wrong
18:19:34 <AnMaster> <oklopol> to be fair, "sör" is pronounced "sir" in swedish <-- not like "sir" would be in Swedish though. Close to English "sir" though.
18:20:16 <AnMaster> also, I was trying to think of something that a actually made sense
18:20:54 <oklopol> well yeah english "sir", i left type inference to the reader
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18:31:00 <ehird> someone should invent inlinelatexcompose
18:31:07 <ehird> so i can type, like, \alpha<tab>
18:35:41 <cheateur> ehird: it's ok, i think you're pretty sweet
18:35:51 <ehird> cheateur: you're an awful human being! <3
18:36:26 <ehird> #esoteric: "We hate you. Your language is crap. Let's hug!"
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18:40:51 * cheateur grabs ehird's ass during the hug
18:41:12 * ehird sues cheateur for statutory rape
18:42:10 * cheateur goes to every person in ehird's neiborhood and tells them: 'you know, according to your friend ehird, having sex with me is so extreme that it's actually a crime!'
18:42:26 <ehird> Things we have learned today:
18:42:32 <ehird> - Ass-grabbing is sexual intercourse
18:42:43 <ehird> - cheateur is moving into all of your neighbourhood's. Run! RUN!
18:42:57 <ehird> slight sentence restructuring issue thar
18:43:31 <cheateur> you got sumptin wrong there, smurfette
18:43:55 <oklopol> cheateur: no we just all live in the same building
18:44:08 <ehird> Either I'm suffering from post-sleep-deprviation deprivation or this channel is weirder than usual right now.
18:44:49 <cheateur> ehird: have you watched erlang the movie?
18:45:00 <ehird> I watched the start but couldn't take any more
18:45:08 <ehird> This, however... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yH_j8-VVLo
18:45:21 <ehird> GRATUITOUS AMOUNTS OF PARALLELISM
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19:29:57 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/aqkt2/dirty_math_tricks_optimizing_divisionby10_on_an/
19:29:57 <ehird> I like how all three of the top code snippets are in Haskell, by different people.
19:30:06 <ehird> I guess the practical esolang has finally made it. :P
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19:58:02 <ehird> prelude = haskell's "standard library" module
19:58:12 <ehird> it's "modules you've loaded> ..."
19:59:45 <cheateur> and they have a special query for that?
19:59:59 <cheateur> i'm just about to install haskell too, so good for warning me
20:00:48 <ehird> a special query for what?
20:01:01 <ehird> it's just a read-eval-print-loop prompt
20:01:08 <cheateur> for a different combination of loaded modules
20:01:23 <ehird> an example shell session
20:01:25 <ehird> GHCi, version 6.10.3: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/ :? for help
20:01:25 <ehird> Loading package ghc-prim ... linking ... done.
20:01:26 <ehird> Loading package integer ... linking ... done.
20:01:26 <ehird> Loading package base ... linking ... done.
20:01:36 <ehird> it's just the interactive interpreter's prompt... like $ in a shell...
20:01:48 <olsner> hah, python... I like how they had a completely braindead GIL thingy that made python about twice as slow on two threads than on one thread, but have finally managed to optimize it into something that is *only slightly slower* than single-threaded
20:01:57 <cheateur> then what did you mean by "modules you've loaded> ..."?
20:02:06 <ehird> cheateur: I was explaining the prompt that is hsown.
20:02:11 <ehird> this is not a difficult concept
20:02:43 <cheateur> you are explaining this in the most confusing way, i still have no idea what you mean
20:02:59 <ehird> cheateur: oh, wait... you're a web guy
20:03:07 <ehird> you've probably never even used a language's interactive prompt
20:03:17 <cheateur> jesus, this fucking thing takes half a gigabyte of hard drive space? the download was 50 megs.
20:03:26 <soupdragon> if you are such a mathematician whta's square root of -1
20:03:50 <cheateur> it's the value of your mouth applied to my penis
20:04:23 <ehird> cheateur: you're boring and egotistical.
20:04:41 <ehird> also, you don't even know any esolangs... or talk about them
20:04:54 <ehird> admittedly everyone else in here does the former and not the latter
20:05:10 <ehird> cheateur: prolly stopped at ,[.,] no?
20:05:36 <cheateur> ehird: i tried figuring it out and couldn't
20:06:21 <ehird> so to recap you're a person who doesn't know any esolangs, doesn't talk about esolangs, is boring, complains about file sizes and constantly mentions how he's a mathematician
20:06:28 <ehird> just curious, what mathematics education do you have exactly?
20:07:20 <ehird> no, see, I said "exactly"
20:07:30 <ehird> what mathematics education do you have?
20:07:31 <cheateur> it's difficult to tell exactly
20:07:40 <ehird> no, it's not, i'm talking about boring formal education
20:07:41 <cheateur> i'm not sure of the status of that myself
20:07:44 <ehird> approved by the state
20:07:52 <ehird> then there's no ambiguity
20:08:26 <ehird> explain this ambiguity or you're just full of shit and embarrassed
20:08:28 <cheateur> well, it is more than 3 years and less than 15 years, depending on your definition of formal education
20:08:53 <ehird> fine, we'll go by the prompt method
20:09:42 <ehird> I didn't ask that, I'm not interested in stroking your ego
20:09:54 <cheateur> i get to stroke it myself, though
20:10:14 <ehird> yes. it would be a lot better if you did it in private, however.
20:11:15 <ehird> do you actually have any mathematical achievements
20:12:00 <cheateur> i know how to multiply numbers in my head, like 10x5
20:12:16 <cheateur> but, they cannot be too big, because then it doesn't work. :-\
20:12:17 <ehird> yeah only mathematicians can do that
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20:15:12 <cheateur> i am happy your curiosity is satiated
20:16:16 <ehird> it's not i just decided talking to you wasn't worthwhile
20:16:43 <cheateur> in that case, i am very happy as well.
20:18:26 <cheateur> ehird: i believe we have gotten off on the wrong foot. wnt 2 try again?
20:18:40 <ehird> not if you say things like "wnt" and "2"
20:18:44 <ehird> also, I'm always an asshole
20:19:27 <cheateur> 'wnt' and '2' are integral parts of my dialect of english
20:19:41 <ehird> it is one i abstain from speaking in.
20:20:33 <cheateur> by doing that you are inconveniencing my minority
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20:42:36 <oklopol> cheateur: maths is great isn't it
20:43:00 <oklopol> i love all mathematicians equally
20:43:50 <oklopol> a small but eager mathematician, like myself
20:44:09 <soupdragon> I've been having mathematical thoughts from a young age but I always felt too scared to try it for real
20:44:11 <fizzie> I've heard that only mathematicians can multply 10 by 5 in their head.
20:44:28 <soupdragon> also I don't think my parents would accept it
20:45:51 <fizzie> oklopol: A mathematician you then must be. Unless you cheated.
20:45:54 <cheateur> because we're multiplying mod 33, duh
20:45:56 <soupdragon> I just realized multiplication is easy
20:46:05 <oklopol> i really did it in my head
20:46:16 <oklopol> basically i use the fact if you have zeroes in the end, then you can sort of take them out
20:47:34 <oklopol> that's another way, but in our number theory course we experimented a lot with multiplying numbers that end in zeroes, you sort of learn to forget about them altogether and just operating on the part before the zeroes
20:47:52 <oklopol> gets slightly tricky if you have more than one zero ofc
20:48:35 <oklopol> the lecturer can do numbers with like hundreds of zeroes in the end in his head
20:49:23 <oklopol> no idea how he does that but it's damn impressive
20:49:52 <oklopol> also this week's homework in combinatorics on words: find a meaningful sentence that's a palindrome
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20:51:04 <oklopol> these are actually in english, i can prove that http://www.math.utu.fi/opiskelu/opetusohjelma/kurssit/syventavat/mate5075/index/Cow-demot2010.pdf
20:51:38 <oklopol> this is supposed to be a fucking advanced course
20:52:17 <oklopol> well obviously i started after 5, because i ran out of fingers
20:52:38 <oklopol> seriously though, can you believe those?
20:52:55 <oklopol> i haven't been able to sleep since i saw the triviality of those exercises
20:53:33 <oklopol> is my ass too big for these pants?
20:53:34 <cheateur> i don't know, i've never used lisp
20:54:07 <oklopol> no you're wrong i have a small ass
20:55:24 <oklopol> i need to email the lecturer about those exercises
20:55:29 <Gregor> Of course LISP is Turing-complete.
20:55:40 <Gregor> Is oklopol's ass Turing-complete?
20:56:36 <cheateur> aha is a meaningful sentence which is a palindrome
20:57:14 <soupdragon> oklohoma are you gonna write a program which generates palindromic sentences?
20:57:37 <fizzie> Unfortunately "A man, a plan, Panama" is not a palindrome. But maybe that was the whole trick. The version with the canal is.
20:58:21 <Gregor> A man, a pnal, Panama.
20:59:11 <oklopol> i think i just randomly generated "eel! flee!"
20:59:37 <oklopol> well, would be sorta weird if i remembered that wrong
21:00:17 <oklopol> palindromes should not contain names
21:00:40 <fizzie> "oko", isn't that a meaningful palindrome?
21:00:50 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
21:01:15 <soupdragon> cheateur: Does computer science have as much to do with computers as astronomy has to do with telescopes?
21:01:52 <oklopol> how much does astronomy have to do with telescopes?
21:02:17 <cheateur> how much does astrology have to do with the golden girls?
21:03:54 <oklopol> why doesn't everyone answer any questions today
21:09:56 * cheateur watches the tumbleweeds roll by.
21:11:24 <olsner> I could answer that, but that'd be lame
21:11:42 <oklopol> i'm mostly asking about the typos
21:12:14 <oklopol> otherwise i think i'm rather perfect
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21:20:42 <cheateur> oklopol: are you studying maths?
21:20:58 -!- ehird has joined.
21:21:15 <AnMaster> ehird: I have to say that http://www.haskell.org/tutorial so far makes a lot more sense than real world haskell or that other one to me
21:21:49 <AnMaster> it is interesting, concise yet explains the issues clearly. Indeed I haven't got far yet, so I'm only speaking of about half of the "values and types" section so far
21:22:04 <AnMaster> (I'm at "2.2.1 Recursive Types")
21:22:23 <ehird> If you think you understand the Gentle Introduction and you don't know ML, you don't.
21:23:46 <AnMaster> ehird, possibly, but those other ones were too slow in getting anywhere interesting. And this seems to explain the types well. I can't speak about later sections of course.
21:24:20 <ehird> The problem is that you need to be "bored" because as an imperative programmer, you categorially *do not understand the ideas behind Haskell* or how to program effectively in it.
21:24:28 <ehird> If you skip that, you will be a bad Haskell programmer; simple as.
21:25:58 <AnMaster> ehird, you forgot that I know scheme and erlang. And if I can't get anywhere interesting then I can't learn something. To learn something it has to get interesting quickly
21:26:15 <ehird> Scheme and Erlang are not remotely like Haskell in actual programming.
21:26:29 <AnMaster> ehird, true, I gathered that from what I read so far
21:26:31 <ehird> You may disagree and think you will be able to learn Haskell without *really learning* the underpinnings, but you are wrrong.
21:26:49 <ehird> Also, Real World Haskell *does* do real programs first.
21:26:55 <ehird> So maybe you just like complaining.
21:28:16 <AnMaster> why the () in the second but not ([]) in the first?
21:28:28 <ehird> By the way, the Gentle Introduction is wildly out of date.
21:28:32 <ehird> iirc, it even has n+k patterns in.
21:28:44 <ehird> Also, I'm not going to answer any questions you have about Haskell because I know that they will only lead to further questions down the line when it turns out you don't understand Haskell at all.
21:28:48 <ehird> And I don't feel like answering such questions.
21:29:10 <AnMaster> ehird, also, have you heard that story about how mathematicians would build a house?
21:39:29 <soupdragon> how mathematicians would build a house?
21:42:02 <AnMaster> oh that, well it was directed to ehird. I don't see any point in telling it as he didn't respond
21:44:35 <cheateur> http://www.codexon.com/posts/debunking-the-erlang-and-haskell-hype-for-servers < lulz
21:44:35 <AnMaster> soupdragon, suffice to say it is "foundations last"
21:44:58 <AnMaster> soupdragon, looking at history yes indeed.
21:45:11 <ehird> cheateur: that guy is probably just shit at coding
21:45:16 <ehird> or configured it wrong
21:45:19 <ehird> or used an unrealistic benchmark
21:45:31 <AnMaster> yes using -smp disable for erlang is definitely doing it wrong
21:45:31 <cheateur> yeah, unrealistic benchmark is unrealistic
21:45:34 <ehird> lol see http://www.codexon.com/posts/debunking-the-erlang-and-haskell-hype-for-servers/comment-page-1#comment-464
21:45:39 <ehird> dons debunking shit about haskell as always
21:45:44 <cheateur> enabling smp made it 4x slowar.
21:46:22 <ehird> dons = don stewart
21:46:28 <cheateur> AnMaster: that's what he said happened in his situation
21:46:30 <ehird> guy at Galois which has been doing commercial haskell for like... 15 years
21:46:35 <ehird> and rabid haskell advocate everywhere :)
21:47:38 <cheateur> the only galois i know is the kiddie fondling op in efnet #math
21:47:48 <ehird> http://www.galois.com/
21:47:57 <ehird> both named after évariste galois obviously
21:48:12 <AnMaster> cheateur, also at accepting new connections? Is that the best benchmark? What about handling that many persistent connections instead?
21:48:16 <soupdragon> do you know differential galois theory?
21:48:26 <ehird> soupdragon: question directed at cheateur presumably
21:48:29 <ehird> AnMaster: see comments.
21:48:31 <cheateur> AnMaster: i know, it's a shit benchmark, you don't have to tell me
21:48:32 <ehird> bad benchmark, bad code.
21:48:43 <AnMaster> also let me read that erlang code
21:48:43 <cheateur> soupdragon: i do, but i don't know that galois
21:48:47 <ehird> cheateur: AnMaster is single-threaded, he sees a line and calls replyToSeveralLines
21:48:56 <ehird> then switches back to his process new irc lines thread
21:49:00 <ehird> no way to stop him, I'm afraid
21:49:09 <AnMaster> oh yeah that erlang one is bad
21:49:23 <ehird> It's when you liey.
21:49:30 <cheateur> soupdragon: at least i'm not calabi-yauing
21:49:57 <cheateur> can we have that version again
21:50:46 <cheateur> here's your palindrome sentence btw!!!!!!!!!
21:50:51 <AnMaster> ehird, also I did read those comments before
21:51:09 <cheateur> http://www.infoq.com/interviews/Erlang-Haskell-John-Hughes
21:51:14 <AnMaster> and yeah the erlang code is shitty.
21:51:19 <ehird> infoq is a crappy site
21:51:30 <ehird> "John Hughes, at Erlang Factory"
21:51:34 <ehird> well this is obviously not goign to be unbiased
21:51:46 <ehird> Do you miss laziness from Haskell?
21:51:47 <ehird> Yes, absolutely. I have Macros in Erlang that simulate it and I use them all the time.
21:51:52 <ehird> so he doesn't even code idiomatic erlang.
21:52:01 <ehird> this is some stunning approval so far
21:52:16 <AnMaster> <ehird> well this is obviously not goign to be unbiased <-- indeed
21:52:26 <cheateur> that hughes guy looks like his anus just prolapsed
21:52:32 <ehird> "There are advantages than not having type checker, namely generic programming. If you do generic programming in Haskell, you can write a paper about it."
21:52:38 <AnMaster> also, I don't think it makes sense to try to compare them like that. Both are great languages.
21:52:41 <ehird> yes and then everyone can read the paper and package it into a library
21:52:45 <AnMaster> meant mostly for different things
21:52:47 <ehird> so us plebs don't have to read it
21:53:00 <ehird> you know, it's called abstraction
21:53:03 <ehird> might have heard of it
21:53:21 <ehird> "If you do generic programming in Erlang, it's 4 lines - one for lists, one for tuples, one for basic values."
21:53:46 <ehird> data Showable = forall a. (Show a) => Showable a
21:53:46 <ehird> generic :: [Showable] -> [String]
21:53:46 <ehird> generic = map show
21:53:48 <AnMaster> also that didn't make much sense
21:53:52 <ehird> oh shit it's three lines
21:53:54 <ehird> and is MOST GENERAL
21:54:20 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I think erlang is nice, but I agree that page is shit
21:54:40 <ehird> guess money is making his mind fuzzy
21:54:45 <cheateur> i didn't understand the code you ahve written
21:54:49 <ehird> can't be simply an idiot, quickcheck is awesome
21:54:56 <ehird> cheateur: no, a client wanted a version of quickchcek for erlang
21:55:01 <cheateur> he looks like he's supported by the red cross
21:55:03 <ehird> so, presumably he is getting paid to write erlang
21:55:38 <ehird> cheateur: the code I've written is simple
21:55:43 <ehird> basically, when we saw (Show a) => ...
21:55:49 <ehird> it means "this value must satisfy the Show interface"
21:55:57 <ehird> (they're actually called typeclasses but that's irrelevant)
21:56:03 <ehird> data Showable = forall a. (Show a) => Showable a
21:56:04 <cheateur> also he's pronouncing erlang err-lang
21:56:17 <cheateur> while anyone who's seen erlang the movie knows it's pronounced our-lang
21:56:23 <ehird> "Showable is a data type with one constructor, taking a single value, a. a must satisfy the Show interface."
21:56:29 <ehird> so we can have a list of Showables
21:56:37 <AnMaster> cheateur, err. I would pronounce it in Swedish instead.
21:56:42 <ehird> [Showable 1, Showable "fuzzy", Showable [1,2,3], Showable ('x','y')]
21:56:48 <ehird> generic :: [Showable] -> [String]
21:56:55 <ehird> "Generic takes a list of Showables and returns a list of Strings."
21:56:56 <ehird> generic = map show
21:56:59 <AnMaster> cheateur, which would be closer to "ärlang"
21:57:01 <ehird> generic xs = map show xs
21:57:05 <ehird> presumably you know what map is
21:57:13 <cheateur> AnMaster: which is how the english pronounce 'our'
21:57:18 <ehird> show :: (Show a) => a -> String
21:57:28 <ehird> show is just "this value has a meaningful representation for humans as a string dude"
21:57:32 <ehird> that's what the Show typeclass is for
21:58:12 <AnMaster> maybe how it sounds to you, but sounds very different to a native Swede. (And Erlang is originally made by Swedes, though it is named after a Dane)
21:58:23 <ehird> no it's named after a company
21:58:33 <ehird> soupdragon: you could do that in coq i think
21:58:43 <ehird> you'd have to put them in the same typeclass
21:58:49 <ehird> but then you could do something like (I don't know Coq):
21:59:02 <AnMaster> ehird, officially it is named after http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agner_Krarup_Erlang
21:59:04 <ehird> prop_inverse : ForAll a. read (show a) = a
22:00:02 <ehird> prop_inverse : forall x, read (show x) = x;
22:00:13 <AnMaster> ehird, who did some important work in the telephony sector.
22:00:16 <ehird> and of course instances of ReadShow would have to provide a proof themselves...
22:00:45 <soupdragon> ehird http://github.com/odge/parseq/blob/master/Examples.v
22:00:58 <AnMaster> of course it also happens to match "Ericsson Language" but iirc I read they had both meanings in mind originally
22:01:05 <soupdragon> Program Definition par_parser : Parser token (fun _ => True) par (fun x p y => x = print p ++ y /\ length y <= length x)
22:01:11 <ehird> I tried to use Coq but I'm not intelligent enough :(
22:01:15 <soupdragon> sort of generalized loop invarient style version of what you wrote
22:01:27 <ehird> I just had to replace a few symbols and I could pretend I was using dependent types in haskell
22:01:32 <soupdragon> you need that ++ y because parsing is incremental
22:01:32 <cheateur> anyways all this functional programming is so 2009
22:01:39 <soupdragon> and you need the length stuff to justify the recursion
22:01:40 <cheateur> what's the next thing after functional programming?
22:01:40 <AnMaster> ehird, "<ehird> [...] but I'm not intelligent enough :(" <-- a classic!
22:02:00 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't know where you've got the impression I'm an egostist
22:02:07 <ehird> cheateur: this idea of there being a "next" is harmful and fashion-based
22:02:13 <soupdragon> why do I bother linking stuff to ehird :(
22:02:17 <ehird> we should be trying to improve, not randomly moving onto things
22:02:21 <ehird> soupdragon: what do you mean, I liked it
22:02:24 <cheateur> ehird: that's exactly why i enjoy it
22:02:26 <ehird> I was just saying that I sucked at Coq
22:02:34 <soupdragon> http://github.com/odge/parseq/blob/master/Parsing.v
22:02:38 <ehird> cheateur: unsafePerformIO
22:02:53 <ehird> soupdragon: wait that was examples and not the implementation?
22:02:57 <oklopol> cheateur: no, i'm not doing anything atm
22:02:58 <ehird> soupdragon: ok I *really* suck at Coq :)
22:03:06 <ehird> the "at" there is terribly imporatnt...
22:03:14 <soupdragon> hehe that Exampels file has a parser for balenced parens and arithmetic
22:03:15 <AnMaster> ehird, did I say you were an egotist?
22:03:18 <ehird> that's just as bad
22:03:22 <cheateur> oklopol: then why the combinatorics link?
22:03:25 <ehird> AnMaster: you laughed at me saying i wasn't clever enough for coq
22:03:25 <soupdragon> the Parsing.v is sort of like mini-parsec++
22:03:32 <cheateur> oklopol: because it doesn't look like very good self-study material
22:03:34 <oklopol> cheateur: well i'm a math student
22:03:46 <cheateur> oklopol: so in that case, you are studying maths
22:03:55 <oklopol> the point was exactly that those exercises are incredibly stupid and trivial
22:03:58 <AnMaster> ehird, I was amused that _you_ would say you weren't cleaver enough for something
22:04:01 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:04:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Which is only funny if you think I'm an egotist.
22:04:14 <oklopol> cheateur: yes, you could say that
22:04:17 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't it spelled "egoist"?
22:04:23 <oklopol> but why say that when you can say something else
22:04:25 <ehird> Only if you like sounding stupid.
22:04:37 <AnMaster> ehird, both exists according to google define:
22:04:55 <ehird> Yes, but egoist sounds stupid.
22:05:11 <AnMaster> ehird, it is how it is spelled in Swedish
22:05:20 <AnMaster> so I find egotist sounds weird
22:05:26 <ehird> Yes, well, all Swedes are stupid!
22:09:37 <ehird> Notation "m >>= f" := (@Bind _ _ _ _ _ _ _ m f) (right associativity, at level 20).
22:09:43 <ehird> that syntax is weirdly englishlike
22:09:50 <ehird> also, _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
22:10:49 * ehird decides to start pronouncing coq as "coh"
22:10:55 <AnMaster> ehird, what does that code do?
22:11:04 <ehird> Define an infix ooperator.
22:11:27 <AnMaster> _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ looks insane
22:13:29 <AnMaster> ehird, seems agda was developed by Swedes btw ;P
22:18:05 <cheateur> this quicktest thing is pretty smart, i have had the same idea like 2 years ago
22:18:30 <oklopol> it's a trivial idea, it's the implementation that's good
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22:19:12 <oklopol> the trivial idea is the idea containing only one element
22:20:18 <oklopol> or should i say... night ->
22:25:50 <soupdragon> ehird it's terribly ugly and verbose but all that can be fixed
22:27:55 -!- lepuspower has changed nick to mycroftiv.
22:28:06 <cheateur> oklopol: it's not that trivial
22:48:53 <AnMaster> <soupdragon> ehird it's terribly ugly and verbose but all that can be fixed <-- read as "ehird is ..."
22:49:03 <AnMaster> and I thought "no ehird isn't verbose"
22:49:25 <AnMaster> (ugly I don't really know about)
22:50:25 <ehird> Am I not verbose? Am I not overly loquacious with the verbiage and associated endeavours? Indeed, it seems to be that a fully-formed expedition to investigate the verbosity of my person would be left with only one real option amongst the set of options available, with all others being eliminated due to some process (perhaps deduction, perhaps magic, perhaps something else entirely; I cannot say, as this is purely hypothetical. Nevertheless, it does not
22:50:26 <ehird> matter.)—and that option would be to conclude that I am entirely verbose.
22:51:19 <AnMaster> ehird, lets say, you are not verbose if that would annoy me ;P
22:51:45 <ehird> Surely you mean I am only verbose if it annoys you.
22:52:49 <ehird> Oh, I parsed it as I am not verbose if being verbose would annoy you.
22:52:51 <ehird> Which isn't what you meant.
22:53:21 <AnMaster> I meant you are terse when that annoys me
22:54:47 <fizzie> ehird: I would be more worried about how they're going to "fix" you.
22:54:58 <SimonRC> Oh man my gut fauna are going mad (like they tend to do when I recover from food poisoning).
22:55:24 <ehird> When I think fauna I always think of deer.
22:55:39 <ehird> THEY ARE /DISPLEASED/
22:56:21 <SimonRC> well "gut flora" would definitely be wrong
22:56:24 <AnMaster> ehird, was that fake German "good" or was it English "gut"
22:57:01 <ehird> SimonRC: fauna/fawn is the connection my brain makes.
22:57:31 <SimonRC> Maybe there are some transparent fish on coral reefs that have actual gut flora, but not humans.
22:57:47 <SimonRC> hmm that's a neat idea actually
23:01:01 <ehird> soupdragon: should i play with agda
23:01:48 <ehird> Yes, but you won't understand it. :P
23:02:07 <ehird> Two phrases. Dependent types. Proof assistant.
23:02:21 <AnMaster> ehird, what sort of proofs can you prove with it
23:02:34 <ehird> What is that supposed to mean?
23:03:24 <AnMaster> ehird, well, math ones? is there a limit on what areas you can prove in? Say, over the reals or over the complex numbers, or the quaternions or such?
23:03:32 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intuitionistic_type_theory
23:07:03 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleene%E2%80%93Rosser_paradox <-- this looks remarkably similar to the proof for the halting problem
23:07:08 <ehird> M-x set-input-method RET TeX RET
23:08:20 <AnMaster> ehird, doesn't work very well. Try \inf
23:08:32 <ehird> Obviously prefixes have to be unique, so it'll be something else
23:10:23 <AnMaster> well just one small symbol missing
23:10:28 <AnMaster> it may be AMS-Tex even not sure
23:10:31 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:10:43 <AnMaster> ehird, but that is seriously cool
23:10:50 <ehird> \infty shows as the infinity symbol for me
23:11:06 <ehird> Cool, \gets gives ←
23:11:36 <AnMaster> how do you get upper case alpha
23:11:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, <ehird> M-x set-input-method RET TeX RET
23:12:08 <AnMaster> ehird, \Alpha doesn't work. \Delta does
23:12:58 <ehird> there4 we kan c dat
23:13:02 <AnMaster> ehird, what really? is that input mode sgml?
23:13:25 <ehird> set-input-method greek lets you be all greek all the time
23:13:37 <ehird> Ηελλο. Ηος αρε υοθ?
23:13:44 <soupdragon> Hello there fellow Reddit user! If you like this msg, please remember to vote for this soupdragon on Reddit.
23:14:23 <AnMaster> <ehird> Ηελλο. Ηος αρε υοθ? <-- hm "hello hoc ape voO"?
23:14:24 <soupdragon> tag cloud: esoteric, esolang, wiki, ehird, insane
23:14:48 <ehird> AnMaster: hello how are you
23:14:53 <AnMaster> ehird, also it works nicely inside erc
23:15:08 <ehird> soupdragon: go away
23:15:27 <AnMaster> ehird, plus I want combined tex + sgml input method
23:15:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:16:15 <AnMaster> will look at it tomorrow or later
23:16:35 <soupdragon> Follow Me: 244 followers, twitter-counter
23:16:55 <ehird> Tælkɨŋɲ ɨŋ ɪPɑ mækɚʃ ɑŋɚ ʃøʉŋð prøfœʉŋð.
23:17:10 <AnMaster> ehird, "mækɚʃ ɑŋɚ ʃøʉŋð prøfœʉŋð"?
23:17:33 <AnMaster> ehird, then I have a bit of an issue. could be "an elitist" I guess ;P
23:17:48 <ehird> It's easy to read.
23:17:54 <ehird> Talking in IPA makes one sound profound.
23:18:06 <ehird> (set-input-method ipa)
23:18:20 <soupdragon> but there's a difference between figuring out what it says... and read it as it is supposed to be pronounced
23:18:32 <ehird> ןאד שךך יקנרק' אם צק!
23:18:47 <ehird> AnMaster: See minibuffer when typing some letters
23:19:44 <AnMaster> Tælkɨŋɲ ɨŋ ɪPɑ <-- okay that was painful to write
23:20:30 <AnMaster> ehird, what does set-input-method brittish do
23:20:35 <AnMaster> it doesn't seem to do anything
23:20:54 <ehird> shift-3 = £, I bet
23:21:27 <AnMaster> for shift-2 that is already true on my keyboard
23:22:17 <ehird> how do you do subscripts with tex
23:22:35 <ehird> except that doesn't work.
23:22:43 <AnMaster> ehird, did ^ for superscript work?
23:22:43 <ehird> type \_0, see failure
23:23:02 <ehird> erm right just _ works
23:23:13 <ehird> how is that backwards
23:23:59 <ehird> i think alt-NNNN = U+NNNN
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23:24:46 <ehird> It might be my OS being stupid
23:25:24 <ehird_> Wonder how to do that single :: char
23:26:26 <AnMaster> ehird_, xchat does that last thing if I use it
23:28:02 <oerjan> <AnMaster> why the () in the second but not ([]) in the first? <-- : has precedence (6 iirc) like an operator, and behaves similarly wrt parentheses
23:28:48 <ehird_> oerjan: what's the dot for compose in ams latex
23:29:22 <oerjan> if you don't mean \circ then i don't remember
23:31:00 <ehird_> (○) :: ∀α. ∀β. ∀γ. (α → β) → (γ → α) → (γ → β)
23:31:26 <oerjan> AnMaster: technically haskell reserves all operators starting with : as data constructors, and you can define their precedence with the usual infix[lr]? command
23:31:34 <ehird_> I don't think \circ is it, but close enough
23:31:46 <ehird_> oerjan: Any fancy mathematical symbols for arbitrary function names?
23:32:05 <ehird_> I said that, but close enough
23:32:11 <AnMaster> ehird_, I just agreed with you
23:32:30 <oerjan> iirc ghc has an extension to allow those for type constructors as well (standard haskell only has -> there)
23:32:41 <AnMaster> ehird - getting annoyed for me agreeing with him since 2010
23:32:47 <AnMaster> you sure have a lot of "since time"
23:32:51 <ehird_> I was pointing out I had already said it.
23:33:24 <ehird_> You, on the other hand, are apparently so irritable that you interpret my benign actions as against you, and act crazy when I point out that they weren't annoyed.
23:33:38 <AnMaster> ehird_, I just don't believe it
23:33:48 <AnMaster> ehird_, and I'm chuckling at this
23:34:16 <ehird_> Issues; you have them.
23:34:51 <oerjan> ehird_: i think function naming custom depends a lot on what kind of function it is.
23:34:55 <AnMaster> also "this" wasn't at "me don't believing you" it was at "you claiming not to be annoyed"
23:35:08 <AnMaster> ehird_, which indicates not quite as weird issues at least
23:35:13 <ehird_> specifically, the arguments to the misnamed (○)
23:35:26 <ehird_> "me don't believing you". Purveyors of fine grammar.
23:36:38 <AnMaster> ehird_, those are just a blur here
23:36:50 <AnMaster> the S in the ring was *very* clear
23:37:11 <AnMaster> ehird_, ⊛ ⊚ ⊝ are not readable
23:38:03 <AnMaster> oh wait, it is in the middle of the row
23:39:50 <AnMaster> that is one symbol just for degrees C? ℃
23:41:00 <ehird_> ↑ How to prove anything to a non-total programmer.
23:41:41 <AnMaster> ehird_, do you still have that unicode graph line generation script around?
23:42:12 <AnMaster> ehird_, that last one was prim?
23:42:21 -!- FireFly has quit ("Leaving").
23:43:54 <AnMaster> ehird_, also what is ζ now again?
23:45:44 <AnMaster> ah found it at /mnt/gentoo$HOME/irc/sparkline
23:47:33 <ehird> I'm rewriting it in Haskell now :P
23:47:48 <ehird> Because Python sucks and Haskell rocks.
23:47:52 <ehird> soupdragon: lol rayman zeta function
23:48:02 <AnMaster> ehird, why did you write it in python back then
23:48:12 <ehird> AnMaster: I was an unenlightened fool.
23:48:24 <AnMaster> ehird, oh? I thought you knew haskell at that point