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00:12:32 <Sgeo> How dare you say Python sucks???
00:13:26 <oklopol> python is a programming language
00:19:31 <ehird> Type system sucks: you get types like (draw :: None) and you could pass either a Cowboy or a Pencil for it, which is nonsensical. Types are only checked at runtime. Statements are not expressions. IO is not explicitly declared, and so mysterious side-effects are easy. Lambdas can only contain an expression, thus making them effectively useless because of "statements are not expressions". Creator is an idiot who thinks you don't need tail-call optimisation be
00:19:31 <ehird> tail-*recursive* functions can be written as a loop.
00:21:29 <Sgeo> "Alexa said "Most visited website"" That is NOT a reason to rate a site as trustworthy or good!
00:21:41 <ehird> Gee, you didn't complain about that yesterday.
00:25:40 <oerjan> somehow feeling slightly related, has an internet mob ever got an innocent person killed yet?
00:26:06 <oerjan> it's bound to happen eventually
00:27:32 <olsner> yeah, thinking about it, I'm kind of surprised it hasn't happened yet (perhaps I just missed it though)
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00:36:55 <Sgeo> Has an Internet mob ever killed anyone?
00:37:51 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> "Alexa said "Most visited website"" That is NOT a reason to rate a site as trustworthy or good! <-- context?
00:38:26 <Sgeo> http://www.mywot.com/en/scorecard/www.python.org
00:38:39 <Sgeo> Same user does it for other sites, including ones that everyone else rates as untrustworthy
00:41:58 <AnMaster> Sgeo, doesn't seem like a credible site that "mywot"
00:46:00 <ehird> Web of Trust is credible enough, it's just stupid.
00:52:07 <uorygl> ehird, you make Python sound like a worse version of Haskell.
00:52:18 <ehird> uorygl: That's because it is.
00:52:23 <ehird> Most languages are. :P
00:53:03 <uorygl> Hmm, we should take Python and change it so that it's exactly like Haskell.
00:53:14 <ehird> We could call it Haskell.
00:53:24 <uorygl> Except it'll still look like this:
00:53:33 <uorygl> putStr("Hello, world!\n")
00:53:43 <uorygl> Thereby making it inarguably inferior.
00:54:05 <ehird> You said *exactly* like Haskell.
00:54:15 <ehird> Also, it'd be main = putStr("Hello, world!\n")
00:59:26 <uorygl> Well, yeah. "def x:\n 3" and "x = 3" would be equivalent.
00:59:26 <oerjan> rubbish, it'd be main = putStrLn "Hello, world!"
00:59:41 <uorygl> main = putStr("Hello, world!\n") is valid Haskell.
00:59:52 <uorygl> It's also valid Python!
01:00:55 <uorygl> This would make it actually work the way it looks like it should work:
01:01:07 <uorygl> some stuff that makes it return a thunk
01:01:18 <uorygl> main = putStr("Hello, world!\n")
01:02:08 <ehird> bsmntbombgirl: Change it so it's exactly like haskell.com.
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01:04:39 <uorygl> Porn depicting edifices?
01:04:40 <oerjan> newsflash: Uranus may contain liquid carbon
01:05:30 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond#Material_properties
01:05:51 <oerjan> "Research results published in an article in the scientific journal Nature in 2010 suggest that at ultrahigh pressures and temperatures (about 10 million atmospheres or 1 TPa and 50,000 °C) diamond behaves as a metallic fluid."
01:06:04 <uorygl> It works by having lots of carbon atoms that attract each other strongly enough that they undergo surface tension but weakly enough that they can move relative to each other.
01:06:22 <uorygl> And by "move relative to each other", I mean "undergo Brownian motion".
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01:07:20 <oerjan> as the rest of the section says, neptune and uranus may have them
01:07:36 <ehird> pouring a 50,000 degree metal into my butt sounds like a good idea
01:10:53 <oerjan> ah here is a popular article: http://news.discovery.com/space/diamond-oceans-jupiter-uranus.html
01:11:10 <uorygl> What makes it diamond if it's liquid?
01:11:45 <uorygl> That's like taking wood, vaporizing it, and calling the result wood vapor.
01:11:54 <oerjan> bsmntbombgirl: it seems to imply these were actually produced in a laboratory
01:13:57 <oerjan> "Diamond is an incredibly hard material. That alone makes it difficult to melt." my trust in this popsci article is suddenly dropping swiftly :/
01:14:26 <oerjan> although that was to be expected
01:14:37 <Slereah> Diamond is the hardest metal
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01:15:08 <oerjan> yes, but my intuition tells me it is unlikely that that implies anything directly about its melting
01:15:24 <Slereah> Diamond doesn't melt, as far as I know
01:15:37 <oerjan> Slereah: incredibly high pressure
01:15:58 <oerjan> see the pressure/temperature chart in my wp link above
01:16:12 <Slereah> Diamond is about the crystal structure
01:16:32 <oerjan> it's molten _from_ diamond though
01:16:49 <oerjan> as opposed to from another form
01:16:53 <Slereah> Still, it's just a catchy title
01:17:18 <Slereah> The kind they use to make scientific discoveries more interesting than they really are
01:18:28 <oerjan> well metallic fluid carbon is pretty interesting in itself
01:19:38 <Slereah> And yet not enough to get in the title :o
01:20:42 <oerjan> another interesting fact: the solid form floats on the liquid one
01:21:52 <oerjan> now we just need diamond-based lifeforms :D
01:22:10 <ehird> my heart is a ferrofluid
01:22:15 <ehird> people don't like being around me, apparently it's noisy
01:26:38 <oerjan> it would just be so cool if there were methane-based life on titan, diamond-based on uranus and plasma-based in the sun's atmosphere...
01:26:48 <Slereah> oerjan : You know what else does?
01:27:06 <ehird> google just uncensored google.cn, apparently
01:27:19 <oerjan> but iiuc there are very few examples
01:27:50 <oerjan> ehird: that sounds... dangerous
01:28:04 <ehird> yeah, china are going to fly to the us, collectively
01:28:08 <ehird> and murder the giant corporation
01:28:09 <oerjan> at least for their employees in china
01:28:18 <ehird> it's still censored
01:28:22 <ehird> just lies LIES and LIES
01:28:52 <oerjan> as i assumed. i really doubt google would do something that would risk their chinese employees being arrested
01:29:24 <oerjan> i think they are much more likely to just shut down the office, assuming they don't chicken out
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01:34:32 <ehird> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/acme-now
01:35:15 <oerjan> they're going to need someone who understands the culture
01:35:59 <oerjan> and to deal with the government.
01:36:30 <oerjan> otherwise they would not have a chance of not getting thrown out, i bet
01:37:44 <oerjan> you see, no matter how much some people would like it, google is _not_ going to be able to actually fight the chinese government in any way from within the country. that is just absurdly optimistic.
01:38:36 <ehird> oerjan: Well, they *did* convince the government of the United States of America to take a good hard look at China because of their illegal actions...
01:38:42 <ehird> Which is quite a lot of power...
01:39:19 <oerjan> well true... it might help against the actual hacking. but i doubt china will budge many millimeters on the censorship.
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02:29:44 <ehird> $ ./sparkline 1 2 3
02:29:47 <ehird> Fuck yeah, Haskell!
02:29:59 <ehird> $ wc -l sparkline.hs; wc -l ~/bin/sparkline
02:30:00 <ehird> 36 /Users/ehird/bin/sparkline
02:30:03 <ehird> Fuck yeah, Haskell!
02:33:29 * oerjan has the vague memory of writing such a program in haskell before, possibly for lambdabot on #haskell
02:33:42 <ehird> ~/bin/sparkline is python, btw
02:34:18 <ehird> oerjan: but does yours handle this?
02:34:19 <ehird> $ sparkline 10000 -3.4 99 2348 9 4888 9000
02:35:00 <oerjan> probably not, it was just a quick lambdabot command or something
02:35:21 <ehird> $ sparkline 1 2 3 4 5 6
02:35:22 <ehird> $ sparkline 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
02:35:22 <ehird> $ sparkline 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
02:35:24 <ehird> $ sparkline 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
02:37:04 <oerjan> reading this through the logs, IE doesn't seem to align all those blocks at the bottom
02:37:14 <ehird> well, the last one isn't aligned for me
02:37:34 <ehird> I prefer this, though, because without those chars there isn't much resolution
02:53:31 <Gracenotes> I'm looking through all the QBASIC programs I wrote when I was a kid! They're quite adorable.
02:54:16 <Gracenotes> also in the same folder were some interesting text documents... very interesting..
02:54:55 <Gracenotes> also lolling at a book report I typed out: "I would recommend this book to a friend because it's a wonderful and exciting book. I loved it because you can't wait to hear what happens next. I adored the adventurous plots Georgie went through but I wished the Goose Prince hadn't died. That's what I think of this book."
02:55:47 * ehird attempts to reconcile that line with its predecessor, fails
02:57:07 <oerjan> otoh, what if we let them fight to the death instead
02:57:22 <Gracenotes> also some christian fiction piece that I apparently started and thankfully didn't get too far with. ugh.
02:59:12 <ehird> That must be really boring fiction, deus ex machinas everywhere
02:59:17 <ehird> "And then, Jesus did this thing! AXIOMATICALLY!"
02:59:56 <Gracenotes> as far as I remember, it was more like a god-discovering mary sue
03:00:51 <Gracenotes> now that I'm reading it, oh jeez. it's such a mary sue :/
03:01:12 <ehird> Gracenotes is female!
03:01:18 <ehird> (Or transgendered.)
03:01:29 <oerjan> mary sue, jesus. sue jesus, mary
03:01:52 <ehird> Marty Stu apaprently
03:03:06 <ehird> haha the originator of the term is hilarious
03:03:07 <ehird> http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dark/1000/marysue.htm
03:04:08 <Gracenotes> looking at my dreidel program again... the one where you press keys and win fake gelt
03:11:20 <Gracenotes> I can paste a giant ascii dreidel into the channel now if you want :|
03:11:35 <Gracenotes> I made four varieties in said program. one for each side.
03:14:00 <ehird> so i assume you were jewish :p
03:14:03 <ehird> no wait, christian
03:14:06 <ehird> with... jewish culture?
03:14:57 <Gracenotes> Jewish family. which went on the Christian side some time in 2001
03:15:32 <Gracenotes> nowadays they attend church weekly. well, two+ times a week
03:15:53 <Gracenotes> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism
03:16:31 <Gracenotes> but nowadays, mostly run of the mill christianity, plus a few jewish holidays
03:19:57 <Gracenotes> and me, well, with reddit's religion of choice
03:26:58 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism_in_Hinduism
03:27:43 <ehird> yes, yes, we get it, people say atheism when they mean rationalism
03:29:06 <oerjan> also, atheists believe they are rational </duck>
03:29:54 <oerjan> hm actually that should be <duck> i think
03:29:58 <mycroshift> actually i dont quite understand atheism from a strictly rational perspective - because there seems to be this weird implicit acceptance of an arbitrary a priori definition of the word 'god'
03:30:14 <Pthing> it's called "the West"
03:31:26 <ehird> mycroshift: I don't agree
03:31:36 <ehird> doesntexist(god) doesn't imply makessense(god)
03:31:49 <ehird> because things that don't make sense don't exist, obviously
03:32:07 <Sgeo> Making sense to who?
03:32:08 <ehird> also, an interferer is perfectly sense-making
03:32:15 <ehird> as well as an omniX one for restricted definitions of omniX
03:32:18 <ehird> Sgeo: as in, logically
03:32:41 <Sgeo> Some definitions of "god" are a coherent idea
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03:34:09 <mycroshift> well, obviously there is huge diversity under the label, but sometimes you get the strange sense that rationalists who strongly identify with the atheist label are determined to advance the claim that there is somehow both a 'correct' definition of god - and that it is maximally absurd
03:34:24 <Pthing> the worst part of this
03:34:37 <Pthing> is that the correct definition of god is some kind of american protestant fundamentalist god
03:34:55 <Pthing> they buy into the fundamentalist bullshit as surely as the fundamentalists, except don't get any fun out of it
03:35:00 <Sgeo> There are definitions of "god" that most would call "incorrect": "God" = table, for instance
03:35:57 <Gracenotes> well, there are levels most atheists recognize. rejecting Christianity, rejecting deism, rejecting theism
03:36:12 <Sgeo> mycroshift, Epicurus or whoever reminds me of that. "If he is neither willing nor able, then why call it god?"
03:36:53 <Gracenotes> but even if there's not a clear consensus definition-wise, there are things atheists tend to reject and accept which are part of atheism
03:37:24 <ehird> Sgeo: so a god that knows everything about the present and past, and can do anything that isn't logically contradicting, including interfering with our world
03:37:26 <ehird> you wouldn't call that god?
03:37:38 <ehird> epicurus attacked the idea of a BENEVOLENT god
03:37:49 <ehird> if you accept godlike powers + lets evil happening
03:37:51 <Sgeo> ehird, I didn't say I agreed with Epicurus
03:37:53 <ehird> then you have a perfectly consistent, evil god
03:38:06 <Sgeo> I would call an evil god a god.
03:38:41 <Sgeo> Hm, actually, that holds true even if I say that anything evil cannot be a god. Let me rephrase that.
03:39:01 <Sgeo> I would call an evil thing "that knows everything about the present and past, and can do anything that isn't logically contradicting, including interfering with our world" a god
03:39:25 <Pthing> but get pissy about "god"
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03:40:11 <Sgeo> Do we actually need to define "evil" to use it in context of defining "God"?
03:40:18 <Pthing> uh well i sure hope so
03:40:28 <Pthing> because evil is an even more incoherent and unreal idea than god
03:41:36 <ehird> only if you don't have a well-defined moral system — but, of course, identifying as having one just makes you whine about groups and philosophy or something.
03:41:52 <Pthing> all that talks about is human beings
03:41:54 <ehird> Which is an interesting argument. "Evil cannot be defined!" "Well, I have a definition that I use..." "You suck!"
03:42:09 <ehird> Pthing: in an argument evil obviously means "evil as I perceive it"
03:42:12 <Pthing> you don't get to apply this "evil" to trees or rocks or quasars or gods
03:42:29 <Pthing> ehird, oh well then let's just say god obviously means "god as I percieve Him" and we can all be speechwriters
03:43:00 <ehird> moral :: Action → Universe → SomeFuzzyIntegerBooleanThing
03:43:51 <pikhq> All this boils down to is that morality and ethics are very hard to deal with in a coherent manner. :P
03:44:21 <Pthing> and therefore are very hard to exist
03:44:57 <ehird> pikhq: well, I'd call my system of ethics WHICH I REFUSE TO NAME BECAUSE OF PTHING :| rather simple...
03:45:24 <Pthing> you should never be ashamed to be yourself :3
03:45:37 <ehird> i'm just trying to avoid you blabbering :)
03:45:56 <pikhq> ehird: Categorical imperative?
03:46:26 <ehird> CoughcoughuticoughlitarcoughiancoughcoughcoughHACKismCOUGH.
03:46:50 <ehird> shit, i thought that would dissuade pthing
03:46:51 <Pthing> you can say utilitarianism, i don't give a shit
03:46:57 <Pthing> why do you think i give a shit
03:47:06 <ehird> Because the last time I did you ranted for 50 days.
03:47:27 <Pthing> you were probably saying something stupid related to utilitarianism that I forget what it was
03:47:45 <ehird> I only said that my system of morals was consistent and logical.
03:47:53 <Sgeo> Are there any problems with "desire" utilitarianism?
03:47:56 <ehird> Logical not as in the "everyone should accept it".
03:48:04 <ehird> Logical as in consistent, so, uh, redundant.
03:48:37 <Pthing> how you can even ASSERT a thing like that
03:48:40 * Sgeo looks for where he first read about it
03:48:52 <ehird> Pthing: Well, utilitarianism is consistent.
03:49:06 <ehird> You never run into a situation where something is seemingly both good and bad.
03:49:12 <ehird> And everyone gets the same results from it.
03:49:17 <ehird> What other definition do you have of "consistent"?
03:49:41 <Pthing> you talk about "running into situations" but also utilitarianism in the abstract
03:49:52 <Pthing> the problem is that no one situation happens identically the same
03:50:06 <ehird> That's not relevant to what I said.
03:50:26 <Pthing> if it can't deal with real shit on the ground, it's a pretty terrible system of morals
03:50:50 <ehird> Of course it's an approximation. All quick human thought is, more or less.
03:50:59 * Sgeo doesn't find it :/
03:51:10 <ehird> Sgeo: Well, explain it.
03:51:13 <Pthing> what is an approximation to what
03:51:28 <ehird> Pthing: What you use to "deal with real shit on the ground" is an approximation of utilitarianism.
03:51:31 <Sgeo> Let's see if I remember it properly
03:51:38 <Pthing> that is what i would consider a moral response
03:51:40 <ehird> All quick thought, e.g. when dealing with real shit, on the ground, is essentially an approximation.
03:51:59 <Pthing> the quick thought is all that is the case!
03:52:05 <ehird> And no systems of morality are truly calculatable in a real senes.
03:52:11 <ehird> They all say "happiness" or "pain" or whatever.
03:52:17 <Pthing> i have this problem that shit actually has to make sense
03:52:26 <Sgeo> There exist desires and beliefs. A "good" desire is one which helps other desires get accomplished. A "bad" desire is one that hinders other desires. A "good" action is one that could be initiated by someone with a "good" desire, whether or not the desires that actually iniated the action are "good"
03:52:33 <Sgeo> I might have gotten it wrong, though
03:52:51 <Pthing> it doesn't really help anyone to be able to assert that like
03:52:55 <ehird> Sgeo: that doesn't terminate
03:52:58 <ehird> what are the axiomatic desires
03:53:06 <Pthing> there exists a response in this situation that is consistent with all other responses!
03:53:15 <ehird> otherwise we'll just have everybody trying to further everyone else's desire to further everyone else's desire to—
03:53:27 <Sgeo> ehird, I don't know
03:53:42 <Sgeo> http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=772 is what I think is the source, but I don't remember reading a PDF
03:53:46 <Sgeo> I remember reading a webpage
03:53:52 <ehird> negative utilitarianism seems to be the best; it avoids the Repugnant Conclusion
03:54:02 <ehird> but is still largely similar to regular utilitarianism
03:54:19 <Sgeo> http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=776 an FAQ, apparently
03:54:31 <Sgeo> http://alonzofyfe.com/article_du.shtml this is what I read
03:55:19 <Pthing> since you bring approximations into it
03:55:24 * Sgeo currently makes no stance as to whether or not it's a helpful system of moralityy
03:55:33 <Pthing> it follows that you cannot bring *any real situations* into discussions of morality
03:55:42 <Pthing> since they are all approximations, and so introduce errors!
03:55:53 <ehird> i think you're misinterpreting my words and i do not know how to fix that
03:57:36 <Sgeo> I'd like to buy a word for $10
03:57:49 <Pthing> okay your word is "meaninglessness"
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04:30:44 <uorygl> Hmm. Not being on Linux makes me feel uncomfortable.
04:31:09 <uorygl> Even though I've been on Windows for the past... while.
04:33:43 <uorygl> So, I wonder now what distribution I should get.
04:34:09 <uorygl> That doesn't sound like it's a distribution.
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04:35:36 <uorygl> Does LFS mean you download the kernel, BusyBox, wget, gcc, install them, and then do the rest from there?
04:36:35 <pikhq> uorygl: No, it means you do the entire thing from an existing build system.
04:37:45 <uorygl> So it's what you would do to install Linux on an iPhone.
04:41:17 <pikhq> Read the damned first chapter of the book.
04:44:57 <uorygl> It would be nice if I had the book. Or knew very well that a book existed.
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05:13:38 <pikhq> "Linux From Scratch" is a book.
05:13:56 <pikhq> It's at linuxfromscratch.org
05:16:06 <Sgeo> pikhq, he's offlne
05:16:11 <Sgeo> He might not look it, but he is
05:16:24 <Sgeo> And I'm going to go eat now
05:39:45 <coppro> hmm... I've got a new idea
05:39:49 <coppro> I want an XML format for nomograms
05:40:28 <coppro> said XML format will have an XSL to turn it into an SVG
05:44:54 <coppro> pikhq: since ehird isn't here, I hereby declare that the task of deriding my idea falls to you
05:54:34 <Gregor> LFS is the most awesome distribution ever.
05:54:58 <Gregor> LFS: The only distribution that's a book (probably?)
06:06:08 <coppro> Gregor: fine, you comment
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07:37:09 <Sgeo> If this guy goes with multithreading, considering that we're using a non-thread-safe SDK, I'll slap him
07:41:50 <oklopol> there's a book with the source code for minix
07:43:40 <fizzie> Coincidentally, there is also a kook with the source code for minix. (I believe.)
07:48:50 <oklopol> incidentally i wonder if tomato juice goes bad if kept for a week in room temperature
07:49:27 <fizzie> Would a regular tomato? (Call you a liar.)
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07:50:53 <oklopol> then again i guess it always does
07:51:53 <fizzie> Aren't those packages supposed to have storage instructions?
07:52:23 <oklopol> i haven't slept yet so sorta have no idea what's going on
07:53:21 <oklopol> once opened blah blah 4 days refrigerator
07:54:04 <fizzie> Then you just have to guess as to what sort of safty factor they've engineered in.
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17:05:35 <fizzie> Heh, funny; Debian sid upgraded to X.org 7.5, and now when I move my mouse cursor to one of the three monitors and press a key while it's there, X crashes with "Segmentation fault at address 0x38" somewhere under mieqPointerUpdateSprite.
17:06:03 <fizzie> The other two screens work just fine, though.
17:06:28 <Gregor> Debian sid, AKA Debian "unstable" :)
17:07:12 <fizzie> Yeah, I guess I don't have anyone else to blame. It's just that it is only sporadically when I feel like debugging things like this, not all the time.
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17:08:18 <fizzie> I think that crashing screen's the one that's on the integrated Radeon display thing; the other two are on a separate graphics card. It's never really worked all that well.
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17:09:03 <Gregor> In my experience, mix n' match graphics cards is rarely a good idea.
17:09:35 <fizzie> Possibly, but it's the stupid that it's not a good idea; there's no theoretical reason why it shouldn't work.
17:09:58 <fizzie> It's not like I'm trying to do anything very demanding, like some sort of SLI dual-use of non-related cards.
17:10:01 <Gregor> Hello fizzie, welcome to Earth.
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17:29:58 * pikhq returns to the lambda-in-C-ness.
17:30:05 <pikhq> Church numerals, anyone?
17:32:55 <pikhq> Hell, Imma go ahead and make it all explicitly curried, just for the lulz.
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17:34:33 <cpressey> If I spray-paint a "9" on the wall of the local Episcopalian chapel, does that count?
17:38:00 <pikhq> churchSucc is ugly as hell.
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17:39:04 <pikhq> The only way I could make this uglier is to do thunks.
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17:43:19 <pikhq> return lambda(m, (closure m, closure n), return call(call(m,churchSucc),n););
17:43:26 <pikhq> God, that's awful.
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18:01:57 * pikhq can has church numerals
18:16:49 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/WDhU
18:17:32 <pikhq> I've got half a mind to make the xgc_malloc a closure, as well.
18:22:57 <MissPiggy> pikhq do a lambda calculus meta interp in it?
18:23:27 <MissPiggy> I'll give you scheme code if you want
18:46:54 <pikhq> The predecessor function is... Ugly as hell.
18:48:38 <pikhq> The explicit closing doesn't help matters any.
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19:07:45 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/CJXC Yeah, that's the most ugly predecessor function I've seen.
19:08:56 -!- AnMaster has joined.
19:17:26 * uorygl blinks at the syntax "closure m"
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19:26:44 <AnMaster> fuck my isp. they changed reverse dns completely today
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20:21:25 <fizzie> SimonRC: Now all the PTR records too resolve names to IPs.
20:21:32 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: speculation.)
20:22:12 <SimonRC> I can't remember what PTR records are supposed to do anyway
20:22:53 <fizzie> Point to the names corresponding to the IPs the records are named after.
20:25:03 <AnMaster> but it went from *.cust.tele2.se to *.bredband.skanova.se
20:25:14 <fizzie> That is a strange complaint; reorganizing the way dynamic IPs are named sounds like the prerogative of an ISP.
20:25:40 <cpressey> as long as they don't resolve to Church numerals, right?
20:25:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, it broke the oper block on an irc network I'm an operator on.
20:26:17 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, well, that is primarily your fault, for relying on something you had no business to rely on.
20:26:22 <AnMaster> also it went from adsl2+ to adsl2
20:26:41 <fizzie> cpressey: Saunalahti (a Finnish ISP) uses (or at least used to use) roman numerals for names for dynamically allocated IPs.
20:26:47 <AnMaster> sure I only have 8 mbit down but why would it change like that.
20:27:03 <AnMaster> they artificially limited it before, so...
20:28:22 <fizzie> htkallas pts/67 Thu Jan 14 11:21 - 11:30 (00:09) mmmdcccxxi.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi
20:28:26 <fizzie> htkallas pts/55 Tue Jan 12 12:58 - 13:10 (00:12) yymmdcxxvi.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi
20:36:16 <Ilari> y? I only know M, D, C, L, X, V and I (and the line on top versions)....
20:36:38 <fizzie> I have a feeling Y is their own custom notation for ten thousand.
20:36:40 <cpressey> Maybe it's a really funky date format string.
20:36:53 <fizzie> SimonRC: MMMM, MARABOU.
20:37:17 <Ilari> Wonder if there is 'w' also...
20:37:21 <fizzie> SimonRC: http://www.brandsoftheworld.com/catalogue/M/49321.html
20:37:29 <fizzie> It's a brand of chocolate.
20:38:23 <fizzie> Anyway, it is not perhaps so convenient to have a combining upper-bar or whatever to do an X̅.
20:38:30 <fizzie> In a domain name, I mean.
20:38:38 <fizzie> Even though IDNs do exist, but still.
20:39:13 <Ilari> Go poke the RDNS of those netblocks and see what roman numbers come up?
20:39:54 <fizzie> There's a kmmcdxvii.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi I have used before.
20:40:43 <Ilari> fizzie: Can you find one with both 'y' and 'k'? Any others than [YKMDCXVI] you can find? :-)
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20:41:05 <fizzie> You can forward-lookup those names and start poking yourself.
20:42:22 <cpressey> Forget X̅, I want whitespace in my domain name. Specifically, tabs.
20:45:21 <Ilari> What, U+2001 is not enough? :->
20:50:34 <uorygl> Looks like Y is a myriad and K is a half-myriad.
20:50:44 <uorygl> What do those numbers denote, anyway?
20:50:59 <uorygl> In any case, I'd number them as if they were newly-discovered atomic elements.
20:51:30 <AnMaster> <fizzie> SimonRC: MMMM, MARABOU. <-- XD
20:51:44 <Ilari> Myriad => 10 000...
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20:53:10 <AnMaster> cpressey, I want right-to-left override in my dns
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20:56:36 <uorygl> Oh. That's what I get for reading channel logs in a random order.
21:00:01 <fizzie> Hrm, well; 85.76.191.100 maps to zyyykmmccxcix.dsl.sl-laajakaista.fi. I guess z could be 50000, then.
21:02:04 <fizzie> K is definitely 5000, though:
21:02:05 <fizzie> 101.180.76.85.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer ZYYYMMMCMXCIX.dsl.sl-laajakaista.fi.
21:02:08 <fizzie> 102.180.76.85.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer ZYYYMK.dsl.sl-laajakaista.fi.
21:04:55 <fizzie> Don't see anything past z yet; 85.76.191.255 is only zyyykmmcdliii.dsl, and the next one (.192.1) is a different block altogether, since that's yymdc.gprs.
21:10:31 <Ilari> zyyykmmcdliii => 87 453 or something?
21:11:30 <fizzie> Ohhh, and there was that great noise when another dialup ISP had ROT-13'd "silly" (sometimes a bit... questionable) reverse-DNS names for clients.
21:13:11 <fizzie> Things like "gheirahvwn" -rot13-> "turvenuija", which is... can someone who does English more idiomatically provide a translation that captures the tone?
21:14:24 <fizzie> Well, Finnish-speaking folks can take a look at the historical list at http://www.lmmz.net/files/mtv3hosts/hurf/
21:14:45 <Ilari> Something bit akin to redneck?
21:16:29 <fizzie> There's things like "smelly corpse", "new-media clown", "alcoholic", "jew" (in a derogatory tone), "commie", "rat food", "humanist", "beer gut" and other such less polite names.
21:17:05 <fizzie> "rectal expert", for example. I wonder if someone actually got fired over this stunt.
21:17:58 <fizzie> Oh, there's even separately "humanist" and "computer-illiterate humanist".
21:18:24 <Ilari> Or it is what resulted when someone's logic bomb gone off?
21:18:47 <fizzie> I don't think so; after all, they *were* rot13'd.
21:19:16 <fizzie> AnMaster: 10000, wasn't it?
21:20:13 <fizzie> Also some of those are just strange (or alternatively I don't know the corresponding slang); for example "abscissa" isn't really especially disparaging, I don't think.
21:20:18 <Ilari> For bit more difficulty, they could have used some random substitutions (same for all names). Those are crackable, but not as simple as rot13.
21:24:13 <fizzie> Their PR release about it at least says it was done by a single employee with a "sick sense of humor" (their words).
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21:28:52 <Ilari> Yes, _really_ sick...
21:31:33 <Sgeo> I guess I should play with ADO.NET
21:33:41 <fizzie> Oh, and the second-level names (like "titaa", "taatititi", ...) are single characters in morse code, in alphabetical order, denoting the third IP address byte. (With "ti" = dot, "taa" = dash.)
21:43:29 <Ilari> There are many duplicate lowest-level names... There are total of 631 names for 3810 hosts. Only 2 of those names appear only once. 'kannibaali' (cannibal) and 'tremolo' (tremolo?) both appear 13 times.
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22:19:32 <coppro> anyone here have experience with SVG?
22:20:03 * Sgeo assassinates XML
22:20:07 <Sgeo> erm, that was tasteless
22:20:29 <Sgeo> I didn't think before I spoke
22:20:55 <AnMaster> http://github.com/ <-- "GitHub is Temporarily Offline." huh
22:21:25 * pikhq can has cons cells
22:24:16 <Deewiant> AnMaster: The twitter link also gave me a 503 :-)
22:26:53 <fizzie> OpenVPN gets IPv6 in the "tun mode" (in addition to tap devices); openvpn-devel has the behind-the-scenes story: "After planning to force a student to write this part of code (who unfortunately sensed our plot and ran for his life) Gert Doering finally yielded to our begging and promises of beer and wrote the code."
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22:30:08 <FireFly> coppro, a little, but only by hand
22:30:23 <coppro> FireFly: good, I'm looking for help with doing it by hand
22:30:34 <fizzie> I've just generated SVG with Perl. (A match made in heaven!)
22:31:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is the diff between tun and tap?
22:31:57 <FireFly> I actually used w3schools for learning SVG :|
22:32:04 <coppro> w3schools is pretty solid
22:32:22 <FireFly> I've heard they're pretty outdated when it comes to JS
22:32:29 <coppro> I'm trying to get my image to center vertically using viewBox
22:32:32 <coppro> and it's not working :(
22:32:53 <fizzie> AnMaster: "tap" is a virtual ethernet device; you can run anything that Ethernet can carry over it. In contrast, the "tun" device can only tunnel IP packets through, it's a sort of a point-to-point tunnel thing.
22:33:06 <coppro> that is, I want to '0' y coordinate to hit the middle of the screen
22:33:23 <FireFly> coppro, I've never used viewbox :P
22:33:31 <AnMaster> coppro, TURT is implemented in cfunge (and iirc also ccbi) as generating a svg
22:33:58 <AnMaster> coppro, it is turtle style drawing. Might not suite your needs
22:34:12 <coppro> no thanks, I'm looking for raw SVG
22:34:26 <AnMaster> coppro, iirc it centers nicely
22:34:43 <coppro> it seems I can get it to work if I make it go 3x as far above the origin as below
22:34:47 <coppro> but why that is I cannot fathom
22:39:29 <coppro> ah, I can use an transform
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22:44:44 <AnMaster> coppro, btw have you seen how bloated the svgs that inkscape produces are?
22:45:06 <AnMaster> use cfunge, it produces the very minimum really!
22:45:19 <AnMaster> on two lines. One for the doc type, one for the rest
22:47:41 <pikhq> Heap contains 13472 pointer-containing + 4096 pointer-free reachable bytes
22:47:49 <pikhq> Hooray, ridiculously inefficient bignums!
22:48:28 <AnMaster> I use the genx library to do it
22:49:52 <coppro> I'm actually trying to learn SVG so I can write an XSLT to it
22:50:25 <Gregor> *cough* http://codu.org/rxml.php *cough*
22:55:42 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Heap contains 13472 pointer-containing + 4096 pointer-free reachable bytes <-- how is it implemented?
22:56:23 <AnMaster> Gregor, at least it compresses well
22:58:24 <AnMaster> Gregor, reduced to about 2.4% I think
23:02:08 <fizzie> I managed to read the link "Hats" at that page as "Guns". That's rather impressive.
23:02:59 <fizzie> Gregor, famous for wearing a different kind of gun on his head every day, chosen by web-vote.
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23:19:55 <pikhq> closure l = call(call(gen_list, church0), call(toChurch, 10));
23:33:59 <pikhq> Implemented? Why, church numerals!
23:34:48 <SimonRC> you should use binary trees of booleans of course
23:35:34 <SimonRC> acutally a guy I know worked on the proper representation of integers in dependantly-typed languages
23:36:10 <SimonRC> I think the answer he (a type theorist) got was 3 cases:
23:36:13 * pikhq tries to figure out why in the world his code is executing: fromChurchBool fromChurchNum
23:36:59 <SimonRC> all zero bits, first half zero and second half a half-the-length number, both halves a half-the-length number
23:37:25 <SimonRC> I forget why that slightly odd representation was chosen, but I assume he knew what he was doing
23:38:00 <MissPiggy> I've read some JFP about efficient binary numerals in lambda calculus,
23:38:42 <MissPiggy> I think it's just \zw.zzwwwzw for 1011100
23:39:20 <MissPiggy> doesn't work in a typed calculus though
23:40:34 <oerjan> SimonRC: it looks strange to have a special case for first half zero when you already have a case for all zero...
23:42:35 <oerjan> you'd think there would be multiple representations of the same number then...
23:45:00 <coppro> anyone familiar with XSLT here?
23:46:06 <SimonRC> oerjan: oh, I forgot, there are the obvious restrictions on parts not being zero, to avoid redundancy
23:46:25 <pikhq> $2 = {func = 0x1, close = 0x0}
23:46:28 <pikhq> That's... Such a wrong closure.
23:46:29 <coppro> SimonRC: How do I match against an element that is not a member of another?
23:46:32 <pikhq> Such a very, very wrong closure.
23:47:04 <coppro> SimonRC: <xsl:template match="foo/bar"> matches a bar that is a child of foo
23:47:10 <coppro> I want to match a bar that is /not/ a child of foo
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23:57:21 <pikhq> There is something horribly wrong with this code.
23:57:36 * pikhq was unaware that 0x8 was the address of a closure.