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00:06:21 <olsner> pikhq: until recently I was unaware as well
00:13:12 <pikhq> The only problem with my C lambda stuff is that it is *amazingly* hard to debug.
00:14:58 <Gregor> pikhq: Did you see my improvement to the Plof parser's debugging?
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00:15:19 <pikhq> Gregor: I only saw that there was such a commit; I've not actually looked at the details.
00:17:11 <olsner> oh, btw, is Lisp/LC in C++ templates a common thing that almost everyone has done, or is it just me?
00:17:35 <olsner> (wondering if I should bother putting my stuff somewhere)
00:24:39 <cheateur> pikhq: what lang is that code in?
00:27:01 <pikhq> cheateur: That's GDB output.
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01:17:46 <Sgeo> "Perl: the only language that looks the same before and after RSA encryption"
01:17:50 <Sgeo> http://qntm.org/?msn
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02:46:49 <Gregor> http://codu.org/music/op10/GRegor-op10.pdf wooh
02:47:15 <pikhq> C and large church numerals do not mix.
02:47:21 <pikhq> (go go gadget stack overflow!)
02:50:55 <pikhq> What are you using to typeset that?
02:56:37 <Gregor> Rosegarden to generate the Lilypond
02:56:45 <Gregor> (Although I then modify it by hand)
02:58:25 <Gregor> (Lilypond, if you don't know, is TeX for musical notation)
02:59:54 <pikhq> Huh. It appears to have a few issues... For example, measure 88; see the (I dunno what it's called, flag?) on the eighth and half notes in the treble clef?
03:00:41 <Gregor> Are you referring to the stems?
03:00:51 <pikhq> Argh. Yes, the stems.
03:01:00 <Gregor> It displayed two stems because I have a chord of dotted quarter notes overlayed with a dotted half note.
03:01:04 <Gregor> Don't know how to fix that ...
03:01:06 <pikhq> Darn tip-of-tongue phenonmenon.
03:01:50 <pikhq> It's also kinda odd-looking in measure 77 (half note and dotted half note)
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03:02:04 <pikhq> I could've sworn Lilypond was smarter than that.
03:03:00 <Gregor> Heh, that's just borken :)
03:03:44 <Gregor> That's an overlay problem again.
03:03:57 <pikhq> Maybe you could get the Lilypond developers to use Opus 10 for the stuff to fix in Lilypond? :P
03:08:38 <Gregor> Nah, they'd just tell me what the "right way" is :P
03:09:14 <pikhq> Which would also be useful. :P
03:12:30 <Gregor> Still have the multiple-stems problem.
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03:16:55 <pikhq> Also, a rather large number of eighth notes appear to be detached from their stems... That's just plain odd.
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03:23:03 <Gregor> I don't know where the detached eighth notes you're referring to are.
03:23:45 <pikhq> Gregor: Only slightly so.
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03:24:14 <Gregor> Even when I zoom in as far as I can, they're not detached for me.
03:24:33 <pikhq> Might be my PDF viewer being odd, then.
03:24:54 <pikhq> It's apparent even when not zoomed in here...
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03:25:16 <pikhq> Hrm. The lines also have bizarre width...
03:25:21 <pikhq> I'm going with "PDF viewer bug".
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03:47:55 <oklopol> in my dream, there was this death metal song, crucial to some sort of revolution, that said "space stations / given as nations"; where the latter verse actually means "taken as a given", but i only realized it was wrong after i woke up. oh and there was some spinning too.
03:48:28 <oklopol> (i always spin in my dreams)
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05:32:11 <Sgeo> "using events, by definition, even on a single threaded process, is multithreading"
05:35:01 <oerjan> "redefining terms, by definition, even when obnoxiously done, is genocide"
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05:40:04 <Sgeo> I taught someone something new today!
05:40:14 <Sgeo> (Had him try an experiment that proved that he was wrong)
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07:20:39 <coppro> I love using an OS with a scheduler
07:21:39 <olsner> I take it you're not on linux then :)
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09:33:05 <cheater> someone set a ban on the ident that i'm using on #haskell
09:34:27 <coppro> or whatever they call it
09:34:47 <cheater> does the cloak change the ident tho?
09:35:01 <scarf> scarf is n=scarf@unaffiliated/ais523
09:42:55 <cheater> but.. is your ident normally scarf?
09:43:24 <scarf> cheater: oh, my IRC client lets me change it
09:43:39 <scarf> the ident isn't checked in any way, you can put whatever you like there
09:44:15 <coppro> well, there might be a ban on it; that's unlikely though
09:44:32 <cheater> there's a ban on it in #haskell :S
09:44:56 <Ilari> What's the banmask?
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09:47:57 <fizzie> The ident *is* checked, by doing an ident protocol request (see RFC1413); of course, if you control the machine you're connecting from, or if it doesn't run an identd, or if the identd allows for user-specific replies anyhow, then you can put anything there.
09:49:10 <scarf> actually, Freenode seems to try to check it
09:49:19 <scarf> but an identd request wouldn't get past the firewall here
09:49:48 <fizzie> Okay, so that's one more way to avoid the check.
09:50:27 <Ilari> If identd doesn't work or is blocked, one normally gets 'user' as user part.
09:50:59 <fizzie> One normally gets whatever one's IRC client specifies in the initial USER message at the beginning of the connection.
09:51:15 <fizzie> Though here with a "n=" prefix. And in many other places, with a ~ prefix.
09:51:48 <fizzie> I think Freenode's new server, the one they're going to switch to soonishly, also does the ~ prefix instead of the current n=foo/i=foo thing.
09:54:10 <fizzie> To be even more exact, the traditional IRCnet ircd has six different cases; no prefix for I-line (normal connection) with ident, ^ for ident with type "OTHER", ~ for no ident; and correspondingly +, =, - for i-lines (restricted connections).
09:54:49 <fizzie> Don't know if Freenode's seven will do all those.
09:58:03 <fizzie> Apparently it does just the ~ prefix. And even that's a configurable option.
09:59:37 <fizzie> Freenode's policy document or some-such used to justify the n=/i= prefixes so that you can set a ban on "?=bar", instead of having to use two bans ("bar" and "~bar") or "*bar" (which'd match "foobar" too).
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10:41:15 <cheater> Ilari: it's *!gast@*.* can you do something about it?
10:44:27 <Ilari> cheater: Block identd?
10:46:16 <fizzie> Based on the fact that his current username has the "n=" prefix (as opposed to "i="), it's already blocked; it's just a matter of setting the client to send something else.
10:46:35 <fizzie> In general ban evasion is a good way of obtaining even more bans, though.
10:47:51 <cheater> stupid xchat needs me to actually install ident -_-
10:48:01 * cheater is trawling through the manual.
10:48:29 <cheater> fizzie: i talked to one of the ops and he said 'it's an old ban, i don't know why it is set, i am not going to touch it'
10:48:43 <cheater> so, it's not a ban against .me.
10:49:19 <Ilari> I thought blocking/disabling identd causes the lhs to be 'n=user@' (if you aren't identified).
10:49:44 <cheater> that's the thing, i am identified
10:49:49 <scarf> nope, it uses whatever you put in the USER line
10:49:55 <scarf> identification confirms the nick
10:49:58 <scarf> it has nothing to do with the ident
10:51:01 <cheater> ah. any idea how to change the user in xchat?
10:51:22 <fizzie> "User name" field in the network list/connect screen/whatever.
10:51:34 <fizzie> "network list" seems to be the dialog title.
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10:55:13 <fizzie> Ah, right, that *!*Gast*@* ban might be related to what's being talked at in http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/05/15/%23ubuntu-ops.txt -- just search for "gast".
10:56:04 <fizzie> Banning "*gast*" is a bit overkill; I would think it matches a number of perfectly reasonable words, for example.
10:56:31 <fizzie> Freenode's +d "realname bans" are funky.
10:57:51 <cheater> but it is not a realname ban, only an ident ban
11:00:13 <fizzie> Yes, that was just an aside; the log I linked to considered a "Java user" realname ban.
11:01:18 <fizzie> There seems to be some sort of a general rule that channel #x has a huge list of bans for all x where x is the name of a Linux distribution.
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12:36:20 <cheater> anyone know why in haskell [0.1, 0.3 .. 1] turns out to contain 1.099999...?
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13:09:26 <Deewiant> cheater: http://docs.sun.com/source/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html
13:12:37 <Deewiant> Or did you mean that it's greater than 1? enumFromThenTo works like that, it goes up to the last thing that's >= the end point
13:13:09 <Deewiant> Or was this just an artifact of floating points being Enum, I forget.
13:13:19 <cheater> according to the haskell98 report, it should end when the next item would be higher than a3
13:15:44 <Deewiant> Actually, it does a takeWhile (<= a3 + (a2-a1)/2)
13:16:24 <Deewiant> http://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/standard-prelude.html
13:18:21 <cheater> so this is an implementation bug
13:19:26 <Deewiant> takeWhile (<= a3 + (a2-a1)/2) i.e. takeWhile (<= 1 + (0.3-0.1)/2) i.e. takeWhile (<= 1.1)
13:19:26 <cheater> it is, because the implementation does not do what haskell 98 defines
13:19:40 <Deewiant> The above is what Haskell 98 defines
13:19:47 <Deewiant> Copied from the link I pasted above
13:20:01 <Deewiant> (With different parameter names since you already used a3)
13:20:01 <cheater> can you find the exact wording of the haskell 98 definition?
13:20:16 <Deewiant> numericEnumFromThenTo :: (Fractional a, Ord a) => a -> a -> a -> [a]
13:20:16 <Deewiant> numericEnumFrom = iterate (+1)
13:20:16 <Deewiant> numericEnumFromThen n m = iterate (+(m-n)) n
13:20:16 <Deewiant> numericEnumFromTo n m = takeWhile (<= m+1/2) (numericEnumFrom n)
13:20:16 <Deewiant> numericEnumFromThenTo n n' m = takeWhile p (numericEnumFromThen n n')
13:20:20 <Deewiant> p | n' >= n = (<= m + (n'-n)/2)
13:20:23 <Deewiant> | otherwise = (>= m + (n'-n)/2)
13:20:46 <fizzie> And relating to the expression itself: "Arithmetic sequences satisfy these identities: .. [ e1,e2..e3 ] = enumFromThenTo e1 e2 e3"
13:21:05 <fizzie> (From http://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/exps.html#sect3.10 )
13:21:28 <cheater> according to http://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/derived.html enumFromThenTo x y z = map toEnum [fromEnum x, fromEnum y .. fromEnum z]
13:22:03 <Deewiant> cheater: For derived instances of Enum
13:22:26 <cheater> i am not sure what derived instances are and why they are different
13:22:55 <Deewiant> Have you been reading the report in order? :-P
13:23:06 <Deewiant> Top of that page: "A derived instance is an instance declaration that is generated automatically in conjunction with a data or newtype declaration."
13:23:26 <Deewiant> I can do "data MyBoolean = MyTrue | MyFalse deriving (Enum)"
13:23:49 <Deewiant> And enumFromThenTo would then work as you described.
13:26:35 <Deewiant> As to the deeper "why" of why it's defined like that for Float and Double, I can't say.
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13:28:05 <cheater> not sure what that gives us
13:28:13 <Deewiant> So you need to take more elements than necessary because you've lost info at that point
13:28:38 <fizzie> "Technology overview: Cognitive radio". Wow, that's so buzzword-compliant; I have no idea what it actually means.
13:28:43 <Deewiant> Except that that doesn't make any sense because there's no need to use toEnum anywhere
13:28:43 <cheater> isn't that quite shit, Deewiant
13:28:52 <Deewiant> cheater: The "shit" is that Float and Double are instances of Enum
13:29:16 <Deewiant> TBH I don't care about the details of how their implementation is shit :-P
13:29:20 <cheater> i don't know haskell enough to fully follow that through but ok
13:35:10 <fizzie> "The demo presents the use of micro-array LEDs for displays embedded in contact lenses." It's things like these that at least partially alleviate my disappointment of it being 2010 already.
13:35:22 <fizzie> Things still suck and all, but a display in a contact lens.
13:36:44 <Pthing> cognitive radio is the stupidest name, yes
13:39:16 <Deewiant> fizzie: Incidentally: is something other than Java acceptable for the AI tournament?
13:40:00 <fizzie> Deewiant: If you can compile it to JVM bytecode and make it work in the tournament system, yes.
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13:40:42 <fizzie> I don't have my workstation online, but I think someone participated with Scala last year.
13:41:28 <Deewiant> Presumably it's a handicap as anything non-Java tends to be slower on the JVM
13:42:08 <fizzie> That's possible, but I don't think I could find a fair way of mitigating that.
13:42:36 <Deewiant> No, certainly not. I wouldn't expect you to.
13:42:58 <fizzie> Hm, last year's bot file sizes are all pretty tiny; perhaps it was the year before.
13:43:32 <Deewiant> Can you tell what language it's in from the file size? :-)
13:44:17 <fizzie> Not in the general case; but the single non-Java participant I remember seeing was a megabyte or two, since they had to bundle the language's standard-library-equivalent in there.
13:45:31 <fizzie> I may have had some sort of file size limit in place, mostly due to the Computing Centre quota.
13:45:59 <Deewiant> You can request a quota-expansion, you know. You'd probably get it for this.
13:46:46 <fizzie> Probably, I just haven't bothered. It's not like there are more than one or two freaks, uh, I mean... differingly language-opinionated folks, in each year's list of participants.
13:48:11 <fizzie> Deewiant: Since you hang around nearby, I guess I could copy on the link: http://research.nokia.com/Otaniemi_demo_house
13:48:15 <Deewiant> I'll translate CCBI to Clojure, write the thing in Befunge and bundle that along with the Clojure interp
13:48:41 <fizzie> Our speech-to-text demo is going to be there, though it's nothing too fancy.
13:49:36 <fizzie> The others are a bit more... flashy. Thought controlled games and so on.
13:50:11 <Deewiant> My wednesdays are rather booked by the school as it is, I probably won't be there
13:50:31 <Deewiant> Isn't your software freely available? ;-)
13:51:26 <fizzie> Not really, though I guess that's mostly a matter of not having enough resources to construct a distributable thing out of it. We have some components downloadable, like that VariKN language-modelling toolkit, and the Morfessor thing.
13:52:11 <fizzie> And of course it's just a trivial matter of implementation to reconstruct our system from the published articles about it.
13:52:25 <fizzie> It's just code, after all.
13:54:00 <fizzie> I dislike the fact that the bot-submission CGI script for the AI competition says "my $deadline = ...", since it's not really *my* deadline.
13:54:16 <Deewiant> So write "their $deadline = ..." instead.
13:55:17 <Deewiant> I guess http://www.cis.hut.fi/projects/speech/demo/ is the closest equivalent to "freely available".
13:56:04 <fizzie> Yes, and that one requires an account too. Though you get that via email.
13:56:25 <fizzie> A more flashier online-demo -- perhaps even something running client-side -- has been talked about, but it's obviously not very high on the priority list.
13:57:13 <Deewiant> Presumably you have something like http://www.cis.hut.fi/projects/speech/srdemo.jpg - just tarball it and torrent the presumably-multigigabyte language model :-P
13:58:40 <fizzie> Ooh, that's an old image; it looks better nowadays.
13:59:55 <fizzie> Anyway, yes, we have that thing; it's just not very user-friendly. I don't really know, software-distributionary policy decisions aren't really my department.
14:00:30 <Deewiant> Since when is any research project of the university user-friendly anyway
14:03:49 <fizzie> News headlines talked about in the lunch table: "U.S. group sends solar-powered Bibles to Haiti -- Not any Bible. These are solar-powered audible Bibles that can broadcast the holy scriptures in Haitian Creole to 300 people at a time."
14:04:13 <fizzie> "Called the 'Proclaimer,' the audio Bible delivers 'digital quality' and is designed for 'poor and illiterate people,' the Faith Comes By Hearing group said."
14:04:20 <fizzie> That's an awesome name.
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15:19:51 <Sgeo> Surely it's better to let people die and go to heaven than let them live and have them end up in hell!
15:23:18 <Pthing> they're catholics, reading the bible at them isn't how you save catholics
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15:55:52 <Sgeo> My dad apparently believes that barackobama.com is a scam site
15:56:10 <Sgeo> Because it doesn't end with .gov
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17:55:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, do you (or anyone else in this channel reading this) know of any program that is able to fix the "bent" image from scanning a book
17:55:56 <AnMaster> near the middle of the book you know
17:58:27 * Sgeo keeps campaigning for coakley
17:59:35 <Sgeo> Martha Coakley for U.S. Senator from MA
17:59:49 <Sgeo> As opposed to Scott Brown, who would kill Healthcare Reform
18:01:45 <AnMaster> ah yes it was Slereah who was in France. Someone with a nick starting with S anyway
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18:30:46 <Gregor> Again I must ask ... why is it that everyone writes left-recursive grammars, then writes left-to-right parsers, when right-to-left parsers make left-recursive grammars SO much easier to parse.
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18:37:57 <pikhq> Because Yacc does left-to-right parsers? :P
18:42:22 <Ilari> The "healthcare reform" is giant piece of CF anyway. Doesn't fix the real problems.
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18:46:01 <cpressey> I blame it on the ubiquity of left-to-right lexers.
18:46:12 <cpressey> (the problems with the US health system, I mean)
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18:47:26 <cpressey> Actually, I advocate outlawing all medicine. (Seriously. A black market would probably work better than the current system.)
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18:55:16 <AnMaster> Gregor, write a right recursive parser then
18:57:58 <oerjan> <cheater> Ilari: it's *!gast@*.* can you do something about it?
18:58:37 <oerjan> since that means "guest" in german, i take it they had a german spammer problem once, and didn't realize (or maybe care) that it's a very generic word
18:59:31 <Gregor> AnMaster: right-recursive grammars suck.
19:01:33 <Gregor> cpressey: Actually, that made me think ... probably the only reason why everybody does everything left-to-right is that early compilers were all one-pass, and you can't do right-to-left in one pass with most filesystems (they'll only give you the file left-to-right). So the lexers are l->r because the file I/O is l->r, and the parsers are l->r because the lexers are l->r.
19:02:22 <Gregor> And nobody will indulge themselves in the sweet awesomeness of an R->L parser because they're stuck believing that they can't buffer the lexical tokens and read them the other way.
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19:02:54 <Gregor> I just sent a message to cpressey that he apparently didn't receive! :P
19:03:22 <Gregor> <Gregor> cpressey: Actually, that made me think ... probably the only reason why everybody does everything left-to-right is that early compilers were all one-pass, and you can't do right-to-left in one pass with most filesystems (they'll only give you the file left-to-right). So the lexers are l->r because the file I/O is l->r, and the parsers are l->r because the lexers are l->r.
19:03:23 <Gregor> <Gregor> And nobody will indulge themselves in the sweet awesomeness of an R->L parser because they're stuck believing that they can't buffer the lexical tokens and read them the other way.
19:05:15 <cpressey1> Gregor: yes, I was going to blame the left-to-right-ness of streams first. But then I considered that files are often memory mapped by the OS these days, and the order in which the tokens come is really the lexer's responsibility...
19:05:25 <oerjan> ouroboros parsing, anyone? :D
19:05:52 <oerjan> also, only L->R makes sense for interactive use...
19:06:34 <cpressey1> oerjan: So what you're saying is, file I/O is l->r because time goes forward, not backward!
19:06:44 <oerjan> and also, if you are parsing simultaneously with downloading from the net...
19:07:24 <cpressey1> Not that a file has a "left" anyway
19:07:28 <oerjan> time travelers' computers must be _so_ messed up
19:07:51 <Ilari> One way one might try to fix the US healthcare would be to restrict how low deductibles insurance can have. Except that would be unconsitutional (unless done by states, and there are 50 of them).
19:09:58 <Ilari> Not that feds care much what is constitutional or not...
19:10:06 * oerjan thinks that "prior condition" thing is messed up too, and seems impossible to solve unless everyone has mandatory insurance from birth...
19:11:22 <pikhq> oerjan: Many people here seem to think that any form of mandatory health care is evil and communist.
19:11:28 <Ilari> Yeah, it is messed up. When I explained to my father what insurance companies do with "prior condition", he wouldn't believe me at first...
19:11:51 <pikhq> "I HAVE THE RIGHT TO NOT HAVE HEALTH CARE", they assert.
19:15:24 <Ilari> Then there is "preventative healthcare". Some of it (like most vaccines in standard vaccination programs) is spectacularly cost-effective. Some it is are complete BS. And stuff in between.
19:16:26 <pikhq> People seem to be ignorant that we already pay through the nose for healthcare, universally...
19:16:39 <pikhq> Emergency rooms are required to accept anyone.
19:17:04 <pikhq> Most of the charges from uninsured people going to an ER are footed by the government.
19:17:24 <pikhq> So, we're already paying for health care, we're just doing it in the most spectacularly inefficient way we can manage.
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19:17:55 <Ilari> And "death panels". The _already_ exist in US.
19:18:17 <pikhq> Yup. We call them "the insurance company".
19:20:38 <Ilari> I don't think the requirement that ER accepts anyone is that bad. There is probably much much worse stuff that really screws things up.
19:20:51 <oerjan> <cheater> anyone know why in haskell [0.1, 0.3 .. 1] turns out to contain 1.099999...?
19:21:56 <oerjan> cheater2: i think it is because if they put the cutoff exactly at 1, they could lose 1 itself because of rounding errors. so they do it at the halfway point instead, sine that seems the next most obvious choice...
19:22:25 <pikhq> Ilari: It's not that requirement that's bad.
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19:22:44 <pikhq> Ilari: It's the fact that that is the only universal healthcare available, and therefore what many people *soley* use, that's bad.
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19:23:06 <pikhq> Ilari: It's what makes the US government spend more per capita on healthcare than any other nation.
19:30:29 * oerjan notes that norway is no. 3 on the http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_spe_per_per-health-spending-per-person list, and it's _not_ because of quality
19:30:39 <Ilari> I don't think that is the cause why healthcare spending is out of control.
19:30:51 <oerjan> yeah our spending is out of control too
19:31:55 <pikhq> oerjan: How many people are financially ruined because of your spending?
19:32:15 <oerjan> ok we may not have _that_ problem (much, anyway)
19:32:51 <Ilari> One thing is for sure. The US healthcare system is giant Charlie Foxtrot.
19:33:30 <pikhq> Also, that graph is off...
19:33:44 <pikhq> The per capita spending here is more like $7,000.
19:35:24 <oerjan> maybe the rest is insurance company profits ;D
19:36:32 <pikhq> There is some 30% administrative overhead.
19:37:29 <pikhq> And 15% of the population has literally no coverage...
19:40:00 <Ilari> And what percentage of citizens that would want coverage don't have one?
19:41:31 <oerjan> i think the reverse of that percentage is more meaningful
19:42:39 <oerjan> (i.e. the percentage of citizens that don't have coverage who would want one)
19:44:02 <Ilari> Yeah that could be meaningful too. But the "citizens" numbers are more meaningful than "all people" numbers.
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19:47:38 <Ilari> The difference between "citizens" and "all people" is that latter also includes legal aliens (shouldn't be much problem) and illegal aliens (these pretty much can't have coverage anyway).
19:48:58 <oerjan> <Gregor> Again I must ask ... why is it that everyone writes left-recursive grammars, then writes left-to-right parsers, when right-to-left parsers make left-recursive grammars SO much easier to parse.
19:49:45 * pikhq notes that "immigration" is an outmoded concept.
19:49:55 <pikhq> Why can't we all just sign onto Schengen?
19:49:58 <oerjan> it's not necessary LR(n) from the right just because it's from the left, i think, so you might get hideous ambiguity
19:50:25 <Gregor> oerjan: Yes, that's true.
19:50:58 <Gregor> oerjan: I'm talking more about hand-written parsers though, so lookahead isn't a huge issue necessarily I think maybe.
19:51:02 <oerjan> in fact i think most languages are designed to have little ambiguity from the left, while no one cares about the other way
19:51:25 <Gregor> I'm going to finish writing my R-L JavaScript parser and see where my hangups are :P
19:51:54 <oerjan> (of course you still wouldn't get _global_ ambiguity)
19:51:56 <Ilari> mmapping won't solve all the problems with lexing R->L. Pipes and that sort of stuff is just the most obivious, even mmaps are mostly designed to be read forwards or randomly, not backwards.
19:52:34 <Gregor> Ilari: We're living in the future, it's not that big a deal.
19:53:03 * oerjan wonders if it would have been the other way around if the japanese had invented the main computer languages
19:54:03 <oerjan> (japanese being a natural language which branches the other way iiuc)
19:54:15 <Ilari> One test one could try: How fast can computer read large file forwards and how fast it can read it backwards (if file is too large to fit in RAM).
19:54:18 <pikhq> Odds are, we'd be using RPN languages.
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19:55:10 <oerjan> although human cognitive load considerations or something would probably imply left-to-right parseability regardless
19:55:14 <pikhq> Ilari: Unless it's a pipe or in FAT, "just as fast".
19:55:46 <cpressey> oerjan: I've wondered that too, but I suspect that Forth would have a large cult following in Japan if that effect were in play, and I've not seen evidence of that...
19:57:58 <cpressey> Also, I feel I must point out that if there's one language where there's an actual use case for parsing while it's coming to you over a pipe and not a disk file, it's Javascript.
19:58:51 <cpressey> But that's just me being pedantic.
19:58:58 <Ilari> pikhq: Well, try it (the defintion of processing could be function that takes chunk of data and does nothing)?
19:59:01 <oerjan> well html itself too, it's a language for parsing purposes
20:00:24 <oerjan> `swedish Play more Gorf.
20:00:26 <HackEgo> Pley mure-a Gurff. \ Bork Bork Bork!
20:01:33 <olsner> mmmm, leverpastej med gurka!
20:01:49 <oerjan> <cpressey> Actually, I advocate outlawing all medicine. (Seriously. A black market would probably work better than the current system.)
20:02:03 <oerjan> i hear that didn't quite work for abortion, back in the day
20:02:42 * oerjan just had leverpastej, but no gurka
20:03:41 <oerjan> actually red beets is the mandatory condiment for leverpastej here
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20:04:16 <oerjan> but sadly i didn't have that either
20:04:27 <olsner> maybe something to try after the can of cucumber runs out
20:04:47 <oerjan> pickled (?) red beets, mind you
20:05:11 <oerjan> ok cucumbers are not exactly unheard of either
20:05:29 <oerjan> although with red beets, _beware_ of spilling and soiling
20:07:15 <olsner> I can imagine... I have vinegar from the cucumber all over my desk, but luckily it's colorless
20:08:55 <cpressey> oerjan: Well, that was more of a comment on the abysmalness of the current system than on the effectiveness of any proposed alternative.
20:09:35 <oerjan> i detected _no_ sarcasm in that <_< >_>
20:11:17 <cpressey> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjMYQyhjiYA
20:11:52 <Gregor> COMPLETELY OBVIOUS DISCOVERY: Although there are more cases of left-recursion than right-recursion, the right-recursive cases are REALLY REALLY NASTY (IfStatement : 'if' ... Statement, Statement : ... | IfStatement | ... )
20:13:02 * oerjan had to turn off that youtube before getting to the actual sarcasm. sitcom allergy, sorry
20:13:43 <cpressey> oerjan: It's not a sitcom, it's a skit by a comedy troupe.
20:14:07 <Gregor> oerjan is against ... media.
20:14:42 <cpressey> Monty Python too? 'Cos KitH is just the Canadian version, really.
20:15:04 <cpressey> Except much better, of course.
20:15:07 <oerjan> oh monty python i can stomach, some of it
20:16:48 <oerjan> i just cannot cope with looking at people really embarassing themselves
20:16:55 <Gregor> Ohhh, Kids in the Hall!
20:16:58 <Gregor> You're dissing Kids in the Hall?
20:17:26 <Gregor> oerjan's rank is now lowered to 2/5ths of a person.
20:17:37 <oerjan> who, me? i don't even know who kids in the hall are. i don't watch tv, remember?
20:17:50 <Gregor> However, speaking of Canadians and actual sitcoms which are funny, Corner Gas is hilarious.
20:20:02 <cpressey> oerjan: Well, now you do. They're Canada's answer to Monty Python.
20:20:34 <oklopol> i don't think those guys were very good actors
20:20:40 <cpressey> Well, "answer" is maybe the wrong word, but you get the idea.
20:20:49 <oerjan> everyone is everyone's answer to monty python these days, aren't they
20:21:23 <oerjan> heck norway's answers to monty python started dying _off_ in the last decade :D
20:22:09 <cpressey> These days? I don't think there are comedy troupes anymore. Culture has disintegrated too far. KitH was like 1992.
20:22:10 <oklopol> i hear this monty python thing is pretty good
20:22:12 <pikhq> I prefer Monty Python. They're Britain's answer to Monty Python.
20:22:31 <oerjan> i just realized that after making this comment
20:24:03 <AnMaster> cpressey, link to this Canadian answer? I can't locate it. Unless it is that last youtube link?
20:24:18 <AnMaster> (sparse log reading does have some downsides)
20:24:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, was it <cpressey> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjMYQyhjiYA ?
20:24:46 <cpressey> AnMaster: the last youtube link is a fairly good introduction.
20:25:39 <AnMaster> cpressey, btw I don't watch tv either
20:27:39 <cpressey> I think the only modern tv show I've been able to watch has been "Good Eats".
20:28:00 <AnMaster> cpressey, star trek tng, I voyager maybe
20:28:42 <pikhq> ... You enjoyed Voyager?
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20:29:00 <pikhq> The show where trans-infinite velocity has meaning?
20:29:22 <oerjan> i should (or maybe it would have been better not to) point out that by "embarassing themselves" i was referring to the characters, not the actors.
20:29:36 <AnMaster> a few of the episodes certainly, some definitely not
20:29:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, I didn't watch all episodes
20:30:00 <AnMaster> I probably missed that one with "trans-infinite velocity"
20:30:19 <oerjan> in case that has something to do with me being relegated to 2/5th person
20:30:23 <pikhq> AnMaster: Voyager had a range from horrible to mediocre, with a couple actually being good...
20:30:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, I guess I mostly hit the mediocre and one of two of the good ones then
20:31:12 <oklopol> oerjan: don't worry, to me, you are at least 2 and a half persons
20:31:23 <pikhq> "Break the warp 10 barrier!" "Warp 10... Isn't that like infinity?" "Yes." "So... Very fast?"
20:31:24 <oerjan> i guess that cancels out :D
20:31:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, also, if isn't quite as bad if you are watching it to experience the treknobabel
20:31:34 <pikhq> ^ Actual. Conversation.
20:32:09 <cpressey> That sounds funnier than any comedy troupe I can think of.
20:32:14 <pikhq> No, so bad it's painful.
20:32:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, starwars holiday special (not that I watched it)
20:32:50 <pikhq> THEY ACCELERATE TO IT.
20:32:52 <Gregor> Mind you, the Voyager writers have disowned the infamously-retarded "Warp 10" episode.
20:32:57 <pikhq> ACCELERATE TO INFINITY AND BEYOND.
20:33:11 <oerjan> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SoBadItsGood http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SoBadItsHorrible (MWAHAHA)
20:33:12 <pikhq> Gregor: True. Still...
20:33:37 <AnMaster> pikhq, well to infinity isn't impossible. Just double your speed the first minute, then double it again after half a minute, and again after a quarter of a minute, and so on
20:34:08 <Gregor> Going to warp 10 was only the /beginning/ of the retardedness of that episode.
20:34:09 <AnMaster> oerjan, I use a custom css so I can't see the links for that site
20:34:26 <cpressey> Ah, well. Is your velocity *countably* infinite or *uncountably* infinite? Which aleph are we talking about, here?
20:34:47 <pikhq> Yes. That was the stupidity that *started* the episode...
20:34:59 <Gregor> I refuse to even mention the rest of the stupidity that was that episode.
20:35:15 <Gregor> In a series that was pretty mundane, that was an episode that was astoundingly awful.
20:35:40 <pikhq> The vast majority of the series was rather... Meh.
20:35:43 <Sgeo> Which is worse: using SQL Server Compact, or using SQLite but installing Visual Studio?
20:35:43 <pikhq> Not terrible, just meh.
20:35:52 <pikhq> But when it was bad, it was horrible.
20:36:39 <pikhq> I'll just note that there is one, and only one, consistent way to explain everything that occured in it: infinite improbability drive.
20:38:01 <Gregor> Sgeo: They're both pretty awful, but with the latter you have a prayer of portability.
20:50:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, what was that episode called btw?
20:51:08 <AnMaster> coppro, what about DS9? (I never watched any episodes from it)
20:51:22 <coppro> some of DS9 is really good
20:51:22 <pikhq> AnMaster: Threshold.
20:58:00 <fizzie> AnMaster: I don't know of a specialized program for that scan thing, but certainly you could try adding short line segments that trace the rows of letters in the book marked as horizontal lines in Hugin, then letting it optimize all those lens distortion parameters; it might find something that straightens them, though probably not very well.
20:59:35 <fizzie> The DS9 abbr always reminds me of the DeathStation 9000 first.
20:59:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, I did some experiments, no luck
20:59:55 <AnMaster> also it should do colour correction IMO
21:00:06 <AnMaster> since it is way darker towards the middle
21:00:40 <fizzie> I know, but that's always my first connotation anyhow.
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21:09:46 <fizzie> Deewiant: Checked; it was indeed in 2008, and Scala, and a 3212277-byte .jar, and MAIMTRON 9000 in http://www.cs.hut.fi/Opinnot/T-93.4400/2008/results/
21:10:51 <Deewiant> I don't suppose you have stats for how often they timed out?
21:11:28 <fizzie> Deewiant: I'm not sure. There's something about CPU usage in the "details" page.
21:12:30 <fizzie> 319.6 seconds/game on average; 3600 seconds was the limit. Probably didn't run out of time very much.
21:12:35 <fizzie> Oh, and I guess there might be the plot too.
21:13:02 <fizzie> "Per-bot statistics" and the CPU usage graph.
21:13:44 <Deewiant> Well, seems like it wasn't slowed down by not being in Java. Or then it was just coded exceptionally well.
21:14:09 <fizzie> Or it didn't do very deep searching in the situation-space. :p
21:15:16 <fizzie> Yes. Though that might be more dependant on how game-relevant a heuristic the author can figure out for evaluating a position, than on how clever the move search part is.
21:15:59 <fizzie> There have been some "used practically no time at all" contenders in the top-N for very small N, either last year or the one earlier.
21:18:13 <fizzie> In 2008 there's Joojoojotti, which used 2.5 seconds of thinking per game (and a game is typically over a hundred half-moves) and still was 23rd out of 46.
21:19:14 <fizzie> coppro: There's this locally-developed board game that is used traditionally for the programming project in our "introduction to AI" course; to keep people interested, there's a bit of competition going on.
21:19:56 <Deewiant> coppro: http://www.niksula.cs.hut.fi/~svirpioj/hierarkia/rules_en.html
21:21:31 <fizzie> Or http://www.niksula.cs.hut.fi/~svirpioj/hierarkia/ for a less detailed overview.
21:22:30 <fizzie> Deewiant: Come to think of it, were you asking about the language rules out of plain curiosity?
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21:23:00 <Deewiant> Well, I'm sort-of intending to complete the course
21:23:28 <Deewiant> It may have been curiosity in the sense that I don't have any particular language wishes at the moment
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21:24:46 <fizzie> Deewiant: Ah. But still, potentially participating. Now, I asked the question for some particular reason, which I still remembered back when I wrote it, but now I've completely forgotten what it might have been.
21:25:22 <fizzie> So, uh, "never mind", I guess.
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21:31:49 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Deewiant: Checked; it was indeed in 2008, and Scala, and a 3212277-byte .jar, and MAIMTRON 9000 in http://www.cs.hut.fi/Opinnot/T-93.4400/2008/results/ <-- checked what?
21:33:27 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> Since when is any research project of the university user-friendly anyway <-- what if it *is* about user-friendly user interfaces?
21:38:32 <fizzie> By "user-friendly" in this context I mostly mean "can manage to get it compiled and figure out what commands to run without calling us".
21:39:27 <fizzie> Admittedly it wouldn't be so hard to provide a simple script for recognizing audio files using existing models.
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21:40:37 <fizzie> But the training part is all done with crafty little bits and pieces, and everyone pretty much has their own collection of scripts, since the sort of research that is done differs so much.
21:41:43 <fizzie> Documentation's been partially replaced with aural tradition, passed on from older shamans to younger acolytes by the campfires. Okay, so that last part was fiction.
21:42:48 <AnMaster> oh my I just found out there exists such a thing as "chess boxing"
21:43:00 <Deewiant> I have known of this for several years
21:44:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is the project in question?
21:44:23 <fizzie> AnMaster: Our speech recognizer in general.
21:45:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, why is one entry between 27 and 28 at http://www.cs.hut.fi/Opinnot/T-93.4400/2008/results/ greyed out?
21:45:24 <fizzie> Not really. That, I think, was Deewiant's whole point. Why don't you read the logs?-)
21:45:26 <AnMaster> and another one between 45 and 46
21:45:42 <fizzie> AnMaster: Those are unofficial participants.
21:45:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh I see. How did they work
21:46:32 <AnMaster> also why didn't any bot play against itself. It might have been funny
21:46:39 <fizzie> Vince being 2007's winner, and RandomBot choosing a random legal move.
21:47:07 <fizzie> Because it wouldn't have affected the scoring.
21:47:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, try, but might have been amusing
21:47:23 <AnMaster> also what were the rules for the game
21:47:47 <fizzie> That was linked to just a moment ago, yes.
21:48:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh yeah, china-chess (iirc it is called that in Sweden at least)
21:48:57 <fizzie> If "at the bottom" means the bottom of the results page, then no, that's just detailed statistics.
21:49:31 <fizzie> The game is reasonably different from most things.
21:49:46 <fizzie> The way to capture pieces is rather peculiar.
21:50:20 <fizzie> I don't dare to say unique since games are not my speciality. But not well-known, anyway.
21:52:21 <fizzie> In 2009's results there are more unofficial participants, since last year's top 5 was also included. http://www.cs.hut.fi/Studies/T-93.4400/2009/results/
21:52:56 <Deewiant> Evidently the 2007 folks sucked then
21:53:09 <Deewiant> Or the results are just that random
21:53:30 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, 2007 was done with Scheme in a different system.
21:53:52 <Deewiant> How'd you run that versus the 2008 folks?
21:54:14 <fizzie> I ported personally the Scheme winner over to Java, but did not tune anything so it assumed a lot less computing time was available.
21:54:57 <fizzie> It's just that they wanted something that made more sense than RandomBot to compare against.
21:55:42 <fizzie> 2008's top three were all better than 2009's winner, though.
21:56:43 <fizzie> AnMaster: It pretty much follows from what is used in the introductory programming courses here.
21:56:58 <fizzie> And Java's got that sandbox in place.
21:57:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, where are the 2007 results?
21:57:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, why was it scheme before then?
21:59:23 <fizzie> Yes. But the majority of 2007 already complained about Scheme, since teaching using it had already stopped.
22:00:17 <fizzie> I wasn't the assistant back then.
22:00:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, still where is the 2007 results. Neither http://www.cs.hut.fi/{Opinnot,Studies}/T-93.4400/2007/results/ worked
22:01:10 <fizzie> It's a text file somewhere.
22:01:23 <fizzie> I'll try to look for it in a bit.
22:01:40 <fizzie> Different systems, different results reports.
22:02:27 <AnMaster> well, going to sleep. doesn't matter if it isn't easy to reach
22:03:48 <fizzie> It's a lot less fancy, just the scores bsically.
22:04:15 <fizzie> Bit busy right now though; probably no great loss there.
22:11:21 <cpressey> I independently invented chess boxing as a joke in the early 90's. I had forgotten about it until now :)
22:12:06 <Deewiant> Well, that's about the age of the idea
22:12:26 <fizzie> Hey, I found it: http://www.cs.hut.fi/Opinnot/T-93.4400/2007/airesults.html
22:12:45 <fizzie> In case AnMaster somehow is still here.
22:12:54 <cpressey> Parallel evolution of ideas, I guess...
22:13:11 <fizzie> And it wasn't just a text document after all.
22:13:40 <cpressey> It's not too hard to come up with the premise "combine something extremely intellectual with something extremely physical"
22:14:00 <cpressey> Maybe it wasn't chess boxing I came up with... what was it?
22:14:12 <cpressey> I think it might have actually been cycle boxing.
22:14:21 <fizzie> Deewiant: The game-browser was also cgi-based back then and has rotted away.
22:14:30 <cpressey> Box a round, then once around a track on a bicycle, then box another round...
22:14:52 <cpressey> Two extremely physical but otherwise very dissimilar activities.
22:15:40 <fizzie> Cycle around a track and try to punch the other guy with your fists while at it.
22:16:21 <fizzie> Also more accident-prone, and therefore would draw larger audiences.
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22:28:29 <Ilari> At least in western countries popularity of something seems approximately inversely proportional to amount of intellect in it... :->
22:32:35 <Ilari> Hmm... From one study "Intake of TFA [trans fatty acids] was strongly associated with CHD mortality..." -- not surprising, TFAs (not to confused with CLA) are known to be dangerous for health.
22:36:19 <Ilari> And if you think "trans fat problem" has been solved, check some nutrient database querying: Most trans fats, milk free (milk free is to try to minimize interference from CLA, as most databases classify that as trans fat).
22:41:49 <oklopol> cpressey: oh, i thought like riding bicycles while boxing.
22:45:27 <fizzie> oklopol: A regular boxing match, with the ring and all, but put both participants on unicycles.
22:45:32 <MissPiggy> oklobox that's a great idea lol bike with one hand and whack the guy with the other
22:45:48 <MissPiggy> the speed of the bike gives extra power to the bike, just like jousting
22:46:03 <oklopol> oklobox could be my bi-boxer name.
22:46:26 <oklopol> (bi-boxing = bicycle boxing, obviously)
22:46:55 <oklopol> "the speed of the bike gives extra power to the bike" <<< yeah speed is powah
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