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00:12:53 <coppro> Does anyone know a command that's like echo + cat?
00:13:06 <coppro> specifically, it can append or prepend to standard output
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00:24:25 <Gregor> echo foo | cat - /dev/hda
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00:33:30 <oerjan> in bash, i think cat - `echo whatever` works
00:34:07 <oerjan> cat - <(echo whatever) may have been it
00:34:39 <oerjan> anyway there is some syntax for inserting the output of one command as a file in another
00:35:16 <Sgeo> var TiredPerson = new { Name = "Sgeo" };
00:35:22 <coppro> in any case, I just switched to perl
00:36:01 * Sgeo is irrationally addicted to C#
00:37:19 <Sgeo> var coppro = (from chatter in CSharpHaters select chatter).First();
00:39:04 * Sgeo may end up installing Visual Studio so that he can easily use SQLite
00:40:42 <Gregor> The syntax is a pipe :P
00:41:13 <oerjan> you cannot pass the _original_ stdin to cat that way
00:41:28 <Gregor> You can't pass the original stdin to cat your way.
00:41:31 <Gregor> You'd have to do something like
00:41:33 <coppro> what I want is a command like "append foo" that output foo+stdin
00:41:38 <coppro> without using backticks
00:42:10 <Gregor> coppro: Wait, so you just want cat foo -
00:42:22 <Gregor> oerjan: <(bleh) overrides stdin
00:42:37 <coppro> because that outputs the content of the file `foo`
00:42:43 <Gregor> oerjan: You'd have to specify an input FD, then convince cat to read from that fd (/proc/self/fds/bleh)
00:42:45 <oerjan> Gregor: in that case <() is not what i meant
00:42:47 <coppro> I just want "foo+(whatever came through stdin)"
00:43:23 <Gregor> In that case, (echo foo; cat) :P
00:43:45 <oerjan> Gregor: bash has a syntax for creating named pipes with the output of a given command, and putting the _name_ of that pipe in an outer command
00:44:02 <Gregor> oerjan: Ah, then I am unaware of that syntax.
00:44:11 <oerjan> it may be that i remembered <() wrongly for it
00:44:50 <oerjan> seeing as i haven't used it in years, myself
00:46:40 <SimonRC> BTW, the pipe is only viewable by the process that bash invokes
00:46:54 <oerjan> Process substitution is the term used
00:47:23 <oerjan> "Process substitution is supported on systems that support named pipes (FIFOs) or the /dev/fd method of naming open files. It takes the form of <(list) or >(list).
00:47:23 <SimonRC> process substitution doesn't work when the command feeds the filename to a second command
00:47:42 <SimonRC> e.g. if that command is a shell script
00:48:49 <oerjan> um wouldn't that only apply if the second command tried to access it after it has been deleted?
00:49:36 <SimonRC> surely /dev/fd looks different to each process?
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00:50:05 <oerjan> the named pipe thing should still work?
00:50:19 <SimonRC> cat: /dev/fd/63: No such file or directory
00:50:52 <oerjan> SimonRC: that doesn't count anyway, because echo obviously finishes before cat opens the file
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00:52:28 <oerjan> oh well, sounds brittle anyhow
00:53:03 <SimonRC> ah, you can't read from it twice
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05:51:16 <coppro> looks like the Edmonton library approved my loan of Once More with Footnotes
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13:56:51 <scarf> for the less serious programming languages around
13:59:46 <fizzie> What, isn't esolangery Serious Business™?
14:00:10 <scarf> you never know, it might be
14:00:20 <scarf> only by exploring the silly can you find the interesting on the edge of serious
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16:15:57 <cheater> so does esolang run in a vm of some sort
16:16:11 <cheater> do i get an interpreter for esolang under ubuntu?
16:19:14 <cpressey> yes, version 3.1.1 of esolang was just released last week
16:20:55 <scarf> "esolang"'s a general term
16:21:11 <scarf> although you can find interpreters for individual esolangs in the repositories if they're really well known, or on the wiki otherwise
16:21:13 <scarf> hi cpressey by the way
16:24:25 <scarf> I'm too busy with RL stuff to really do much esolanging at the moment...
16:27:21 <cpressey> I'm trying to find more time for it recently.
16:27:46 <cpressey> The last interesting one I've done is: http://catseye.tc/projects/zowie/
16:28:34 <scarf> I noticed that one in #esoteric's last review of What Cats's Eye Has Been Up To Recently, but didn't really look at it in detail
16:28:45 <Gregor> For some reason "zowie" made my mind immediately jump to "Yom Kippur", used as some kind of generic expression of happiness. "Yom Kippur, this is the tastiest pie I've ever had!"
16:28:59 <scarf> it's rather reminicent of continuation passing style, though
16:30:22 <cpressey> scarf: Huh. I have been very interested in continuations lately, but honestly, I wasn't thinking about them at all in ZOWIE
16:30:25 <scarf> but instead of storing the IP and data together, you can access each of them separately
16:30:48 <scarf> a Zowie program state is almost a continuation, except you only use half of it at a time, which is rather interesting
16:32:12 <scarf> hmm, I wonder if it's TC even without the ability to rollback? it's a lot less obvious whether it's TC or not then, but it's not obviously incomplete
16:33:25 <cpressey> scarf: From what I remember... without rollback you can only do "repeat" loops, not "while".
16:33:43 <scarf> yes, but I think repeat may be enough for TCness by itself
16:33:49 * pikhq wonders if he should try and force his C lambda code into using CPS...
16:33:54 <scarf> the idea is, immediately after each loop you "undo" one interation of it
16:34:03 <pikhq> It would have the advantage of getting rid of the stack overflows...
16:34:04 <scarf> but it's not obvious that doing that is always possible
16:34:11 <cpressey> well, it seems to be folklore that repeat is insufficient for TC. i remember looking and i couldn't find an explicit proof
16:34:28 <Ilari> Explicit repeat count?
16:34:34 <scarf> I'm relatively certain that it depends on other details of the language; it's sufficient sometimes, but not otherwise
16:34:36 <cpressey> tho, i think i know what you're talking about re "undo"
16:34:39 <scarf> Ilari: no, while but that always loops at least once
16:34:41 <pikhq> (computing fact 10 overflows the stack ATM. ... In addition.)
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16:35:43 <cpressey> scarf: if you could prove that "repeat" loops are sufficient for TC I think you would have something very publishable. at least, that is the impression i formed from what research i did see (e.g. Kozen's work on "while programs")
16:36:04 <cpressey> Ilari: "if" + "repeat" can emulate "while"
16:36:25 <scarf> it's easy enough to imagine languages in which it is possible
16:36:53 <scarf> imagine a C-like language which stored a sort of "transaction history" of all changes to variables, and had a method to undo the most recent change
16:37:10 * oerjan cannot quite get to grips with this scarf-ais guy
16:37:27 <scarf> by using a stack of counters which held how many changes there had been, you could just undo the right number of changes
16:37:40 <scarf> that's requiring a rather implausibly high amount of support from the language, though
16:38:54 <cpressey> scarf: well, maybe too much support to be taken seriously, but still an interesting esolang design
16:39:31 <scarf> I'm wondering how little language support you could get away with; for instance, bignum BF probably has enough, although I'm less sure about that
16:39:47 <scarf> (or rather, I should say "DoFuck", I suppose)
16:40:19 <cpressey> since BF maps very easily to "repeat programs", i think that would be publishable
16:40:46 <scarf> perhaps, but I'm trying to do too many papers in parallel as it is
16:40:54 <cpressey> (again, to clarify, i don't think "publishable" should necessarily be anyone's goal, i'm just using it to describe how surprising it would be)
16:42:04 <oerjan> one thing that comes to mind is: set a variable to 0 before the loop, and to 1 at the end. then at least you should be able to do any _arithmetic_ as if it was a while loop, by exploiting that (assuming you have at least multiplication)
16:42:23 <oerjan> s/at the end/just before the end/
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16:43:21 <oerjan> because you then have a flag to help you ignore the first iteration
16:43:33 <cpressey> oerjan: that sounds reasonable
16:44:48 <oerjan> and for TC you don't need anything more then than arithmetic assignments, i think
16:45:36 <cpressey> folklore has been proven wrong before :)
16:45:39 <MissPiggy> are you guys talking about reversibly TC languages?
16:45:48 <oerjan> hm you can even do output with C-like strings, as long as you don't mind outputting a lot of 0-length strings
16:46:25 <scarf> MissPiggy: about TC languages without the ability to skip code
16:46:36 <scarf> i.e. every loop runs at least once, no if
16:47:10 <cpressey> and the relationship between that and reversible programs is... obscure, at least
16:47:21 <cpressey> i won't say they're not related somehow tho
16:47:26 <scarf> they do feel related
16:47:31 <scarf> if you can't skip code, you have to undo the loop
16:47:40 <cpressey> oh, too deep, too early, too little coffee :)
16:47:52 <scarf> incidentally, it turns out that INTERCAL is TC even with no flow control but jumping from the end of the program to the start
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16:48:04 <scarf> but it has rather a rich set of ways to not do commands, so that's rather unsurprising
16:48:57 <cpressey> well, one of the "while program" results is that you only really need one while loop, so... yeah
16:49:32 <scarf> hmm, if you only need the one loop, it surely isn't much of a problem to ensure it always iterates once
16:49:52 <scarf> unless the result allows cheating by using things like ifs inside the loop
16:50:51 <cpressey> well... if you collapse nested loops into a single loop then you can't take oerjan's suggestion of setting a variable to 0 "just before the end" of an inner loop because you've eliminated the inner loop
16:51:47 <scarf> yes, but then you wouldn't need to
16:52:48 <cpressey> hm, i can't really tell how it would work at this point.
16:53:03 <oerjan> surely you convert to a single while loop before converting that one into repeat
16:53:26 <scarf> well, you clearly can't do BF with just a single loop
16:53:32 <cpressey> at any rate, i'm occupied for the next little while, so i'll let my brain marinate
16:54:10 <oerjan> cpressey: but if it's while, can't you skip it?
16:55:08 <cpressey> scarf: true, because you need loops to perform and/or, which while loop collapsing needs
16:55:34 <scarf> as I said already, I think it's going to be heavily dependent on the other details of the language
16:57:27 <cpressey> oerjan: i'd need to see an example in order to reason about it, at this point.
16:57:52 <oerjan> cpressey: um that was a pun, referring to your "next little while"
16:58:44 <scarf> this is the #1 danger of having a productive mathematical discussion with oerjan
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21:27:10 <cheater3> what are some esolangs you work with simon?
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21:37:54 <nooga> evening of weird nicknames
21:43:28 <fizzie> Is that "153" age or a birth-year or what?
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23:03:47 <nooga> i hae an idea but it's so undefined that i cannot even express it
23:04:43 <MissPiggy> nooga you should talk to me with this idea in mind
23:05:03 <nooga> do you get this feeling sometimes?
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23:07:53 <oerjan> i'm not sure i can think an idea if i don't express it somehow
23:10:25 <oerjan> more specifically, i think i have trouble _remembering_ things that cannot be put in words
23:10:39 <oerjan> (or symbols, at least)
23:11:19 <oerjan> which could of course mean that i _do_ have such feelings but just don't remember them
23:12:53 * Sgeo should probably eat
23:13:12 * Sgeo tends to die if he doesn't eat
23:13:27 <oerjan> is this a frequent problem of yours?
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