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00:17:03 <nooga> how does one become a millionaire?
00:17:19 <Oranjer> do you really want to know?
00:17:35 <oerjan> you start as a billionaire and then you use money like crazy
00:17:54 <nooga> oerjan: that does not count
00:18:10 <Oranjer> Malcolm Gladwell has some theories in his book Outliers, nooga
00:19:06 <Oranjer> basically, one needs 10,000 hours to become a good enough expert in a field to make the big bucks
00:20:26 <nooga> I can't even bargain properly
00:22:56 <pikhq> nooga: Two options: luck, and being born a millionaire.
00:23:49 <Oranjer> I disagree--luck provides the opportunity, perhaps, but hard work is usually necessary to act on it
00:24:31 <nooga> i'm pretty sure that iI
00:24:46 <nooga> 'I've spent more than 10000 hours using my computer
00:28:26 <Oranjer> 10,000 hours is roughly 10 years
00:29:03 <Oranjer> it isn't just "using" something, it's practicing something--continually pushing toward the perfection of this use
00:30:21 <nooga> i think another aspect of success is that you have to dare
00:30:43 <nooga> to take action and risk
00:30:48 <uorygl> 10,000 hours is about 5 years working full time.
00:31:28 <nooga> it's 1.56981132075472
00:32:00 <uorygl> Working 24/7 is plausible, if dreaming counts.
00:32:38 <pikhq> Oranjer: 10,000 hours is a year and a couple months.
00:33:03 <oerjan> `calc 10000 hours in years
00:33:06 <HackEgo> 10 000 hours = 1.14079553 years
00:33:32 <Oranjer> uorygl's estimate is better--I am wondering how Gladwell came up with the ten years he often cites in his book
00:33:56 <pikhq> Who *merely* works full time on something? :P
00:33:58 <nooga> roughly it's like working 4 hours a day for 1 years
00:33:59 <uorygl> By assuming you practice for 20 hours a week, I guess.
00:34:43 <nooga> oh, i've had error because of int/float conversion
00:34:43 <pikhq> By the time you hit competence, you're likely to spend much, much more time doing... Whatever.
00:34:54 <Oranjer> 4 hours a day seems like it wouldn't be your job, just a hobby
00:34:56 <pikhq> Assuming you actually give a damn about it.
00:35:32 <pikhq> Try and make it so you could get paid doing $thing?
00:35:56 <uorygl> Well, I'm going to go try to save the world again.
00:36:06 <uorygl> ("Again" attaches to "try" there, not "save".)
00:36:11 <Oranjer> ah, the three are venn diagram, pikhq?
00:36:41 <Oranjer> save the world how, uorygl?
00:36:41 <nooga> i've noticed that i love to do stupid things like esolangs and i can spend days on stupid experiments with electronics
00:36:56 <nooga> but when i must code something useful - i procrastinate
00:37:11 <coppro> http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/05/04/f-gollom-arizona-immigration.html
00:38:45 <nooga> useless and bizzare = cool
00:50:50 <nooga> ah, there's nothing better than setting your alarm clock in cron
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07:15:08 <myndzi> qwerty wasn't the first layout you learned?
07:17:41 <lament> i learned dvorak first
07:17:58 <lament> now switching is hard!
07:18:02 <myndzi> how did that come about?
07:18:09 <myndzi> i switched the other direction ;)
07:18:12 <myndzi> but i found it quite easy
07:19:44 <lament> maybe because qwerty is just harder :)
07:20:49 <myndzi> it's less natural feeling, yes
07:20:54 <myndzi> but i don't suspect it's any harder to learn
07:21:04 <myndzi> you are, of course, avoiding dvorak like the plague?
07:21:18 <myndzi> the only real way to learn is to go cold turkey on what you know
07:21:21 <lament> im especially confused by the letters b and y
07:21:29 <myndzi> fuck that, i always mix up b
07:21:40 <lament> they're very close to their dvorak positions, but on opposite hands
07:21:48 <myndzi> pretty much exactly why
07:22:24 <myndzi> you could always learn colemak or something haha
07:22:27 <myndzi> this is #esoteric after all
07:22:28 <lament> but also i just keep instinctively typing in dvorak
07:22:34 <myndzi> why restrict it to just languages?
07:22:44 <myndzi> let's all type in esoteric keyboard layouts too!
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07:22:56 <lament> colemak is a dvorak substitute
07:23:05 <myndzi> honestly it took me about a week to learn to touch type dvorak from knowing qwerty
07:23:18 <myndzi> i don't expect it will take you much different to do the reverse, if you just irc a lot
07:23:34 <myndzi> eventually i relearned qwerty and now i'm pretty much bilingual
07:23:38 <lament> im touch typing, just really slowly
07:23:41 <myndzi> i can type about 100wpm in either
07:23:49 <myndzi> the think-and-peck stage ;)
07:24:07 <myndzi> i think i was up to about 30wpm in a month
07:24:16 <myndzi> the one-letter-at-a-time stage
07:24:24 <myndzi> but without the pauses for "where the hell is that key?"
07:24:25 <lament> do you ever confuse layouts
07:24:37 <myndzi> mostly because of environmental conditioning
07:24:42 <myndzi> i'd be hard pressed to type qwerty at home
07:24:53 <myndzi> though i have an easier time typing dvorak arbitrarily on any other keyboard
07:24:55 <lament> im especially worried about things like vim
07:25:16 <lament> hjkl on qwerty is dumb :)
07:25:17 <myndzi> how did you get by in a program like that with dvorak as your la yout?
07:25:38 <lament> most vim shortcuts are mnemonics
07:25:58 <lament> and those actually make more sense on dvorak imo
07:26:07 <myndzi> lots of games and various programs have button choices based on physical location on a qwerty layout though, at least in part
07:26:18 <myndzi> hjkl makes no sense on dvorak :P
07:26:28 <myndzi> h and l are completely arbitrary
07:26:30 <lament> it makes lots of sense
07:26:40 <myndzi> if jk was like left-right then i guess that pair would be ok at least
07:26:50 <myndzi> i don't actually know vi keys, but i think hjkl was navigation?
07:26:52 <lament> right hand is for moving horizontally
07:27:02 <lament> h is for left, l is for right
07:27:12 <myndzi> at least it worked out that way
07:27:15 <lament> thats why they're on opposite sides
07:27:25 <myndzi> but it's still a bit of a stretch to say it makes sense :P
07:27:32 <lament> left hand is for moving vertically
07:27:46 <lament> and j and k are both very convenient
07:28:21 <lament> on qwerty its stupid because you cant actually put your fingers over hjkl
07:28:41 <myndzi> right hand: one space to the left
07:28:47 <lament> unless you move them from the home position in a way in which you would never do otherwise
07:29:12 <myndzi> and moving your hand away from home key is better than using TWO hands in weird arbitrary ways? ;)
07:29:15 <lament> if i wanted to move my hand from the home position, id use a mouse
07:29:45 <myndzi> hl on dvorak is not exactly home position either
07:30:04 <myndzi> h is the only homerow key
07:30:25 <lament> your hand is on the home position if any fingers are on the right home keys
07:30:42 <lament> your mind knows the exact location of everything
07:31:02 <myndzi> i have little bumps on the index home row buttons
07:31:05 <myndzi> they are plenty to orient me
07:31:27 <lament> exactly, that's why there're only two bumps and not 8
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15:06:19 <phantomhoover> It appears that there is no Core Wars fanfic on the web.
15:06:31 -!- phantomhoover has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
15:12:23 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: it's a machine that looks like you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
15:12:37 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: by thy leave, crono?!! you brought back my cat! thank you, crono!
15:12:56 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: the king awaits. you saved our queen? you see, the mammon machine!?
15:15:42 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself! geez!
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16:25:40 <beinghuman> are they insane because their wiki doesn't load?
16:26:36 <Phantom_Hoover> More generally esoteric languages that aren't designed for practical programming.
16:27:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Some are to investigate ideas, some are meant to be deliberately impossible, and some are just jokes.
16:28:12 <augur> painful minimalism
16:28:22 <augur> scheme is minimalist, but its not esoteric because its actually usable.
16:28:29 <beinghuman> i'm looking for a room on freenode full of people willing to beta test opensource software
16:28:52 <augur> try #opensourcebetas
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16:30:38 <beinghuman> augur: thanks. as soon as I mentioned it in that room about 50 people volunteered.
16:32:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I mentioned it a while ago and alise thought it was hilarious.
16:33:14 -!- augur has set topic: Not infact a place to find opensource beta testers. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:34:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: Not, in fact, a place to find open-source beta testers..
16:34:35 <augur> also fuck your grammar, bitch
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16:35:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Not, in fact, a place to find open-source beta testers. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D
16:35:04 <augur> no, it wasnt both.
16:35:12 <nooga> MY BRAIIIIIIIIIIIIN
16:35:34 <augur> it was nothing but orthography.
16:35:45 <augur> commas are orthography.
16:36:17 <beinghuman> http://conservapedia.com/Conservapedia:Richard_Dawkins_Project#Dawkins_the_clown
16:36:46 <augur> hence why i said it was nothing but orthography
16:36:56 <augur> it is not, however, grammar.
16:37:11 <Phantom_Hoover> beinghuman: Out of curiosity, how did you find this place?
16:37:13 <nooga> what do you know about ortography!
16:37:20 <augur> nooga: im a linguist.
16:38:09 <augur> and as you can seen from wikipedia, i don't consider orthography to be grammar: "Linguists do not normally use the term to refer to orthographical rules, although usage books and style guides that call themselves grammars may also refer to spelling and punctuation."
16:38:12 <nooga> augur: check out ż/rz h/ch ń/ni ą/om ć/ci and separate nie-
16:38:21 <augur> ("the term" there being "grammar")
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16:38:59 <beinghuman> lol at this shit storm for dawkins calling the pop a soft pedophile
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16:44:15 <beinghuman> or am I falling prey to Poe's law here?
16:44:36 <beinghuman> that picture just makes me think it could be fake
16:46:32 -!- pikhq has set topic: Not, in fact, a place to find open-source beta testers. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:47:31 <pikhq> augur: Clearly there should be a language where all the punctuation is actually grammatically relevant.
16:48:12 <augur> punctuation is an orthographic device conventionalized to demarcate different grammatical properties
16:48:26 <augur> but punctuation doesn't exist in the language itself
16:50:15 <pikhq> Yes. My thoughts were more along the lines of making punctuation just be a very, very short way of writing some sort of word or phrase that should be said in various places. For instance, "foo, bar, qux quuxy." would be read as "foo comma bar comma qux quuxy stop".
16:50:20 <pikhq> This is, of course, silly.
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16:51:35 <pikhq> Anyways. All this is still kinda beside the point.
16:51:57 <pikhq> That being "orthography is not 'part of the language' but rather just some conventions to encode it"
16:54:26 <augur> pikhq: its doable. in written japanese, for instance, i believe the convention is to use periods to end sentences. asking a question is either "nani nani ka." or "nani nani?"
16:54:26 <pikhq> The language I'm speaking would still be English, even if I opted to write it using Chinese characters.
16:54:40 <augur> where the ? sort of consumes the ka (and .)
16:55:07 <nooga> Chinese characters aren't built for expressing English
16:55:27 <pikhq> augur: Not *quite* the same. "?", much like in English, is merely indicative of an inquisitive tone.
16:56:01 <pikhq> nooga: Surprisingly, it works quite decently when you treat it a bit like Japanese does.
16:56:09 <augur> pikhq: well, syntacticians would say the inquisitive tone is actually the result of a silent "ka" in there ;)
16:56:26 <pikhq> augur: Isn't necessarily *actually* a question.
16:56:40 <augur> neither are things in english with said tones!
16:56:59 <pikhq> Whereas with "ka", it absolutely must be a question.
16:57:09 <nooga> pikhq: listen to Japanese speaking English
16:57:35 <nooga> bible black -> baiiuburu buraku
16:57:41 <augur> rissen tsu japonizu supeakingu ingurishu
16:57:58 <pikhq> I prefer listening to Japanese speaking Japanese.
16:58:19 <pikhq> The English mangling, it is much less.
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18:39:04 * Rugxulo is confused ... wtf is Conservapedia?
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18:43:20 <Rugxulo> I knew there were other *pedias (uncyclopedia, most notably), though
18:43:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Now it's just a bunch of trolls and morons trolling and being moronic.
18:45:20 <Rugxulo> vs. the rest of the Internet???
18:45:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, and the rest of the Internet isn't entertaining.
18:47:46 <fizzie> Not even erotic Core War fanfics? How strange.
18:48:37 <fizzie> Why'd you ask, then? Anyway, I assume you'd just describe the actions of the programs in a sexy way, or something.
18:48:56 <Rugxulo> http://www.atariage.com/software_page.html?SoftwareLabelID=119
18:49:15 <Rugxulo> don't worry, it's very tame ;-)
18:49:40 <fizzie> Tame? There's photorealistic (well, almost) pictures of nude people in it!
18:50:18 <Rugxulo> it's very bad pixelated art
18:50:37 <Phantom_Hoover> I try to write erotic Core War fanfic here as a joke, but I can never finish the sentences.
18:51:24 <Rugxulo> BTW, this is one argument against unlocked consoles ;-)
18:51:33 <fizzie> Rugxulo: You just need to squint a bit.
18:51:35 <Rugxulo> people make strange stuff sometimes ;-))
18:52:00 <Rugxulo> you can barely tell who the man is!
18:52:28 <fizzie> For a bit less work-safe more of same, there's a cracked.com list, http://www.cracked.com/article_17206_the-10-most-perverted-old-school-video-games.html
18:52:42 <fizzie> Don't click if you're not the sort of person who should be clicking that sort of links, and so on.
18:54:09 <Rugxulo> well, it's hardly too bad if it's fake art
18:56:46 <Rugxulo> seriously, I think Atari was offended that their unlocked 2600 had so many lame games from third parties, hence they made later consoles have to be signed first
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19:06:09 <Rugxulo> rotflmao : http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/ob/seanbaby/naughty04b.gif
19:06:17 <Rugxulo> (Atari 2600 graphic, horribly bad)
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19:07:46 <Rugxulo> if that doesn't make you laugh, nothing will ;-)
19:09:03 <Rugxulo> Boong-ga Boong-ga ... ha, lamest . game . evah
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19:14:04 <Rugxulo> lol "WHY THE HELL WOULD ANYONE STICK THEIR FINGER UP RANDOM STRANGER'S ASSES FOR FUN.
19:14:47 <Rugxulo> the damn comments are funnier than the article!
19:15:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I will award one internet to the first person who can write erotic Core War fanfic.
19:17:42 <Rugxulo> "In Japan, there is even a TV gameshow where a celebrity routinely kanchōs random people" ... yikes!
19:19:19 <pikhq> Kanchou is... Fucking bizarre.
19:19:46 <pikhq> Even by Japanese standards.
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20:44:14 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 1679 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
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20:45:20 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
20:45:30 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
20:45:40 <EgoBot> addinterp: !addinterp <name> <language> <code>. Add a new interpreter to EgoBot. This interpreter will be run once every time you type !<name> <subcode>, and receive the program code as input.
20:52:44 <pikhq> !c ((void(*)())NULL)();
20:52:45 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 1887 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
20:54:33 <pikhq> Clearly I expected there to be a function at NULL.
21:01:36 <Phantom_Hoover> !c printf("%d\n", 0xFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF);
21:01:52 <Phantom_Hoover> !c printf("%d\n", 0xFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF);
21:01:56 <Phantom_Hoover> !c printf("%d\n", 0xFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF);
21:02:18 <Phantom_Hoover> !c printf("%p\n", 0xFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF);
21:02:34 <pikhq> Congrats, you've learned about truncation!
21:02:51 <pikhq> ... And a little bit about two's complement.
21:10:40 <pikhq> Lies and I feel like having a sandwich!
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22:11:31 <Phantom_Hoover> So, what party best represents the views of the esoteric programmers?
22:12:16 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:12:30 <pikhq> Depends on region, particular esoteric programmer, and whether or not we have to pick ones that are in any way influential.
22:13:17 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan: I thought hagbart was the guy in the Illuminatus! trilogy.
22:14:08 <oerjan> hm could be, i haven't read that
22:14:27 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq: But whose policies consider the downtrodden esoteric programmers?
22:14:37 <oerjan> another machine here is named tyrell, obviously from bladerunner
22:15:11 <oerjan> otoh hagbart is a norwegian name
22:15:22 <pikhq> Sadly not a real party.
22:15:41 <oerjan> and some of the other machines (at least used to be) named after norwegian children's movie characters
22:15:51 <oerjan> (kanutten & romeo-klive)
22:17:59 <oerjan> nvg's first server was named swix, after a norwegian ski wax
22:18:11 <oerjan> (it was a vax running ultrix)
22:19:10 <HackEgo> var sl_select, tl_select, web_sl_select, web_tl_select;var ctr, web_ctr, h;var tld = ".com";var sug_lab = "";var sug_thk = "";var sug_exp = "";var dhead = "Dictionary";var dmore = "View detailed dictionary";var tr_in = "Translating...";var isurl = "";var show_roman = "Show romanization";var hide_roman =
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22:19:24 <oerjan> i assumed you got hagbart from my hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no reverse ip address
22:19:37 <oerjan> "the network(ing) group"
22:20:13 <oerjan> for the ntnu university
22:20:35 <oerjan> it actual has two computer clubs (the other being pvv, programvareverkstedet)
22:21:03 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well i haven't visited the actual club location for years
22:21:46 <oerjan> not since the great move (part of the merger of the two parts of university that the two computer clubs were at)
22:22:04 <oerjan> i just use my old shell account and web page there
22:22:37 <oerjan> in earlier times, we used to have pizza nights and stuff
22:23:06 <oerjan> it is possible the more active people still do
22:23:28 <oerjan> i'm not really a real programmer anyway
22:26:24 <oerjan> but in fact i've been wondering about that hagbart name myself, it's not a character i recognise
22:28:55 <oerjan> there were enough hits for hagbart celine that i didn't notice
22:29:22 <oerjan> but only hagbard has a wikipedia page, obviously
22:29:36 <oerjan> also, absolutely nothing
22:30:05 <oerjan> it would appear that hagar the horrible is called hagbard in danish
22:30:19 <oerjan> (and hårek in norwegian fwiw)
22:32:12 <oerjan> both being more genuine viking names
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