00:00:19 * oerjan virtually changes his homepage to google advanced search to escape the pacman
00:07:07 <oerjan> s/homepage/start page/
00:20:58 -!- elliottcable has changed nick to HARPOONS.
00:22:19 -!- HARPOONS has changed nick to elliottcable.
00:26:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, well, do you know anything about software raid under linux
00:29:52 <fizzie> I use it, but I'm very much not a specialist.
00:32:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, or is it some build in RAID on drive? As in, setup during bios
00:32:26 <AnMaster> I'm wondering if I should use it
00:32:33 <AnMaster> don't know how much "hardware" it is
00:32:43 <AnMaster> I suspect not a lot since iirc it needs special windows drivers
00:32:58 <AnMaster> but perhaps it does something in hardware...
00:33:00 <fizzie> From what I hear, the Linux software raid usually works better. (Unless you need Windows compatibility.)
00:33:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, don't need windows at all :)
00:33:33 <fizzie> But there *are* some motherboard with real RAID controllers integrated, it's just that most are not.
00:33:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, but can I do RAID apart from on a tiny bit of the disk? it seems pointless to do RAID on the swap
00:34:28 <fizzie> That's close to what I have, though I think the RAID bit is by someone else; I think it's pretty softwarey thing.
00:34:46 <fizzie> Er, or "had"; it seems I've switched motherboards at some point.
00:35:43 <fizzie> And RAID on swap is not pointless, for stability reasons; you don't want a disk crash to potentially kill your system when it takes swapped-out programs with it.
00:35:59 <AnMaster> strange... I have two 1 TB devices. Same model. Same speed. SMART extended polling time differs (171 minutes vs. 167 minutes)
00:36:01 <fizzie> I don't have hot-swap-capable anything, though, so I didn't bother with swap-on-raid either.
00:36:13 <AnMaster> that is the "recommended" estimate
00:36:53 <fizzie> But yes, you can partition the disks however you want, and then select (preferrably same-sized) partitions to build a raid array from.
00:36:53 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
00:37:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, so you could do RAID 1 on everything except swap (and do RAID 0 on that :D)
00:37:42 <fizzie> Right, though you don't need RAID 0 on swap, you can just make two separate swap devices. The kernel's supposed to be smart enough to utilize them in a stripingy way.
00:37:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, how do you handle /boot? Do you need an initramfs if / is on RAID 1?
00:38:43 <fizzie> Probably, though it's been possible to build raid support as non-modules and have the kernel automagically bring the / array up at boot-time.
00:39:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, I would prefer to avoid initramfs
00:39:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, but yeah how do you handle /boot?
00:39:53 <pikhq> AnMaster: On a RAID-1, all you need to do is install the bootloader into each individual drive's MBR if you want to be able to boot off of any arbitrary drive.
00:40:01 <fizzie> Currently I don't, since my system stuff (/boot, /, /usr, /var) is on that non-RAID SSD (I don't really have money for 2*SSD here...) and I just regularly back it up to the terabyte-or-so /home.
00:40:21 <pikhq> Since grub doesn't *write* anything, it'll just see a fairly normal partition for /boot.
00:40:30 <fizzie> But yes, grub can boot from a /boot that's on a raid-1 array.
00:40:49 <fizzie> It does write things if you do "savedefault", I think there was some sort of a potential issue for that.
00:41:03 <AnMaster> hm will have to stop using savedefault then
00:41:08 <pikhq> Yeah, there's potential issues with that...
00:41:39 <AnMaster> still what about /? And avoiding initramfs that is
00:41:42 <pikhq> Unless it saves in the MBR, that'll just break, and if it does save in the MBR, then it won't propogate to other drives.
00:41:53 <AnMaster> plus I want to do lvm2 for everything except /
00:42:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, it saves in a file in /boot, which is created to have a fixed size
00:42:32 <AnMaster> so it won't have to change the file size
00:42:46 <pikhq> AnMaster: Then it'll break a RAID-1.
00:42:53 <fizzie> There's a MBR-saving patch, though.
00:43:06 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:43:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, wouldn't help for EFI (not that I have that)
00:43:39 <fizzie> For EFI, I'm sure you can prepare an even nicer place for storing that.
00:44:02 <fizzie> Possibly that boot-loader storage-place GRUB wants on EFI disks, or however it worked, can't recall.
00:44:15 <fizzie> Still won't propagate to the other drive(s), though.
00:45:07 <fizzie> I'm not sure how non-module raid-support brings up the / array nowadays. It might be that it Just Works (tm).
00:45:20 <fizzie> LVM on top of the raid is of course no problem, I do that too.
00:46:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, how did that non-module raid stuff use to work?
00:47:17 * AnMaster imagines RAID on LVM on dmcrypt on RAID on LVM
00:47:54 <pikhq> fizzie: GRUB1 does not handle EFI.
00:48:02 <pikhq> And GRUB2 handles RAID and LVM natively.
00:48:13 <fizzie> IIRC (and this might be wrong), there was some sort of kludge that it sniffed likely/listed-as-an-argument device partitions for RAID array metadata blobs, and brought easily assemblable stuff up.
00:49:04 <fizzie> AnMaster: From mdadm --auto-detect, which starts kernel auto-detected arrays: "This can only work if md is compiled into the kernel - not if it is a module. Arrays can be auto-detected by the kernel if all the components are in primary MS-DOS partitions with partition type FD."
00:49:31 <pikhq> fizzie: Linux RAID partitions have their own partition type. And those partitions have metadata on them.
00:49:34 <fizzie> Also "not recommended for new installations -- using mdadm to detect and assemble -- possibly in an initrd -- more flexible and should be preferred" and so on and so on.
00:50:04 <fizzie> pikhq: Yes, I know that.
00:50:23 <AnMaster> I'm proud my desktop manages without it
00:50:38 <pikhq> AnMaster: initramfs is a bit nicer.
00:51:00 <pikhq> initrd loads a filesystem into /dev/ram0 and mounts it.
00:51:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, it makes a difference in boot time, I measured stock kernel and custom kernel
00:51:13 <pikhq> initramfs unpacks a cpio into a tmpfs that's mounted on root.
00:51:24 <AnMaster> stock kernel had only the modules needed on the actual initramfs
00:51:59 <pikhq> Also, initramfs always exists on Linux 2.6.
00:52:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, anyway it might be supported but if you don't use it?
00:52:57 <pikhq> Then there will still be one.
00:53:09 <pikhq> There is one compiled in.
00:53:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, a dummy one provided by the kernel?
00:53:22 <pikhq> Not much by default.
00:53:39 <AnMaster> pikhq, where are the files for it in the kernel source?
01:10:45 <AnMaster> I just realised harddrives have a realtime clock...
01:11:04 <AnMaster> to be able to put into the SMART data the time of the event
01:11:36 <AnMaster> well might not technically be a realtime clock
01:17:42 -!- sdorand2 has quit (Quit: sdorand2).
01:23:37 -!- Slereah has quit.
01:45:47 -!- AnMaster has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net).
01:47:39 -!- Slereah has joined.
01:57:43 -!- Gregor-L has changed nick to Gregor.
01:59:23 <uorygl> "Thanks to a millennium of meticulous record-keeping, Icelanders are a genetically perfect people."
02:16:10 -!- uorygl has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
02:17:59 -!- uorygl has joined.
02:45:51 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
03:07:34 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:08:49 -!- MizardX has joined.
03:27:27 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
03:30:04 -!- Sgego has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
03:35:56 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
03:48:51 -!- Gregor has joined.
03:50:25 -!- augur has joined.
04:10:58 -!- sdorand has joined.
04:17:08 -!- sdorand has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:18:24 -!- sdorand has joined.
04:32:28 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: Leaving).
04:38:50 -!- gm|lap has joined.
04:55:19 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
05:19:37 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
05:25:56 -!- sdorand has left (?).
05:27:41 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
05:33:53 -!- sdorand has joined.
05:35:42 -!- augur has joined.
05:39:51 -!- lament has joined.
06:00:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
06:00:36 -!- augur has joined.
06:02:18 -!- Slereah has joined.
06:08:27 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
06:48:09 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Quit: Rugxulo).
07:01:53 -!- adu has joined.
07:25:10 <Gregor> So I ran into a surprisingly ridiculous problem today.
07:25:18 <Gregor> I wanted to benchmark a browser's /rendering/ performance.
07:25:32 -!- adu has left (?).
07:25:48 <Gregor> To that end, I was going to render a bunch of random stuff from JS in a loop, using setTimeout(..., 0) to yield to the browser so it would actually render.
07:26:09 <Gregor> However, the event loop in every major browser seems to be timer-based, not truly event based.
07:26:28 <Gregor> So on e.g. Firefox, that just ends up rendering something once every 10ms.
07:26:51 <Gregor> As far as I can tell, there is no way (from JavaScript) to render something, then immediately come back to JS.
07:32:41 * Sgeo_ really, really likes Tremulous's AFD prank
07:36:25 <fizzie> I'm not sure you can deduce any far-reaching conclusions about the browser's internals from that; it may be just that setTimeout(..., N) even for N=0 always uses a timer of that resolution, and doesn't just post a do-some-JS event.
07:37:08 <Gregor> I actually tried various alternatives to setTimeout.
07:37:18 <Gregor> Generating DOM elements that create onload events that fire back to my JS, etc.
07:37:32 <Gregor> All had the same delay.
07:40:57 <fizzie> Did you happen to test with Opera? One of its dev pages said it renders stuff even during the JS event dispatch, while FF and others postpone it until you get out of JS stuff. (Anyhow, it's still very unpredictable and browser-dependent.)
07:41:14 <Gregor> I didn't try with Opera. FF, Chrome, IE.
07:41:37 <Gregor> Anyway, it's all very depressing for people who actually want to measure rendering performance :P
07:45:18 <fizzie> There was that one "canvas-rendering filters and show the FPS rate" benchmark floating around, you could try to see how that was done. Although it might use some canvas-specific trick. (Or just not care about a 10ms diff.)
07:48:48 <augur> Gregor! fizzie! Sgeo_! :D
07:49:14 <Sgeo_> With a u instead of a second a and an extra u!
07:49:38 <augur> i have a logic/computing challenge for anyone who's interested :)
07:49:46 <Gregor> Go listen to http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-wipp3.ogg :P
07:50:43 <augur> Gregor: did you write this?
07:50:54 <Gregor> Yes, hence why it's on my web page :P
07:51:06 <augur> well you mightve just recorded your performance
07:51:15 <augur> you should go easy on the chords tho
07:51:36 <Gregor> "Go easy on the chords"
07:51:43 <Gregor> I have no idea what to make of that :P
07:51:54 <augur> well, in the first minute and a half or so
07:52:04 <augur> there are these times when you play chords
07:52:08 <Gregor> Yeah, so "the section before everything changes" :P
07:52:11 <augur> not arpegiated or anything, proper chords
07:52:28 <augur> you emphasized the chords more than the rest, if only slightly
07:52:34 <augur> you should reverse that
07:52:43 <Gregor> OK, now I understand your meaning.
07:53:10 <augur> and you should extend the first part, because stylistically it makes wonderful melancholy jazz
07:53:49 <Gregor> It's repeated thrice, it's sort of the refrain from the storm that is the rest of the piece.
07:54:17 <augur> you should write another piece that plays up those themes as its entirety
07:54:31 <Gregor> This piece is a work in progress, so you never know :P
07:54:32 <augur> it evoked much bladerunnerness for me
07:54:41 <Gregor> The end, for example, I will probably scrap entirely >_>
07:55:01 <augur> it needs to be more coherent too, btw.
07:55:16 <augur> like i said, the refrain is a bit jazzy
07:55:29 <augur> but the rest is decidedly classical
07:55:51 <Gregor> And ... there's a problem with that? I mean, that's straight-up intentional ...
07:56:06 <augur> well, its just a bit disjointed, i feel
07:56:27 <augur> for me, style is very closely associated with mood, and i cant get into this piece because it has no mood
07:56:43 <augur> it feels like a jumble of moods
07:56:48 <augur> which is not itself a mood.
07:57:23 <augur> if you were aiming for disorientation, or tumultuous psychology, or whatever, for me this doesnt capture it
07:57:25 <Gregor> See, that to me is amusing, because the somewhat chaotic jumps back and forth between styles or moods is /exactly/ what I was going for X-D
07:57:40 <augur> because those are moods in and of themselves
07:57:46 <augur> not composed of the use of other moods
07:58:09 <augur> bouncing back and forth from cheerful to sombre doesnt create a "bipolar" mood
07:58:16 <augur> its simply two moods
07:59:03 <Gregor> I don't think "bipolar" is an accurate description of what I was aiming for either :P
07:59:16 <augur> it was merely an example
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:00:29 -!- gm|lap has quit (Quit: ilua).
08:03:01 <augur> im not saying that a chaotic mood is easy to come up with on its own terms, mind you
08:04:10 <augur> also, im fairly certain there is a blade runner song that you're unintentionally citing in this piece
08:04:19 <augur> no, sorry, not blade runner
08:04:27 <Gregor> I've never seen that ... movie? I'm pretty sure that was a movie, right :P
08:04:58 <augur> it the song Clubbed2Death from the Matrix.
08:05:11 <augur> it has a piano interlude
08:05:23 <augur> and your piece is remeniscent of that
08:07:31 <augur> actually i think its not an interlude but an outro of sorts
08:07:58 * pikhq listens to Opus 13, WIP3
08:08:50 <Gregor> Hmmm ... not hearing it, but maybe I have no perspective.
08:09:05 <augur> its not a direct quote
08:09:08 <augur> its just an evocation
08:09:40 <Gregor> OK, I think I get your connection then.
08:09:52 <Gregor> I also feel I didn't lift anything, inadvertantly or otherwise :P
08:10:17 <augur> its not lifting, its just evocation
08:10:40 <pikhq> Gregor: Not bad so far.
08:10:44 <augur> there are some two or three note progressions here or there that are similar across the pieces
08:12:06 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
08:12:21 <Gregor> Ack, I need to sleep >_>
08:12:32 <Gregor> Stupid having to wake up while the clock reads AM.
08:15:19 <pikhq> Gregor: My only complaint so far is that it feels *kinda* like you've got two seperate pieces going on here.
08:15:39 <Gregor> So, roughly the same as augur's complaint.
08:16:01 <augur> you should try to find some historical pieces that convey chaos and disarray
08:16:11 <Gregor> Which I find unfortunate because A) that's pretty much what I was going for and B) if everybody's complaining about it then that means I did a terrible job at making it work :P
08:16:14 <augur> without combining stylistically different components in the way you did
08:16:32 <augur> again, moods are not compositional
08:16:40 <pikhq> Gregor: ... Rather than feeling more like a single piece that switches between calm and chaos.
08:16:43 <augur> you cannot take two moods, put them together, and get a third mood
08:16:55 <augur> you just get the two moods.
08:17:06 <augur> there is no beat frequency
08:17:08 <Gregor> augur: Yes, we all understand your calculus of moods at this point :P
08:17:21 <augur> oh if only it were so advanced as to be a calculus!
08:17:41 <pikhq> augur: The term "calculus" is much more general than you think. :)
08:17:57 <augur> im a formalist, remember
08:18:04 * pikhq still finds it amusing that the calculus of derivatives & integrals gets called just "calculus"
08:18:25 <augur> its the first calculus people are introduced to
08:18:33 <augur> probably the only one ever called a calculus
08:18:43 <Gregor> They should bring the lambda calculus to middle school.
08:18:48 <pikhq> *cough*lambda calculus*cough*
08:18:52 <augur> so its entirely predictable that it would be called just calculus
08:19:55 <Gregor> Lesse whether calculus gives a disambiguation page or the calculus of derivatives and integrals with a "for general calculi, see Calculus (disambiguation)"
08:30:06 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
08:36:24 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
09:12:05 -!- alise has joined.
09:13:03 <alise> When was the last time Phantom_Hoover was here?
09:19:25 <augur> i havent spoken to soupdragon since her banning but according to her now im a troll.
09:20:08 <alise> That's actually a remarkably long time talking to soupdragon before seeing her go batshit, at least if me and Phantom_Hoover are any guideline :P
09:21:25 <alise> She tended to start yelling incomprehensible things at me about once every two days, usually
09:24:06 <alise> But at least the shitness is predictable.
09:25:12 <alise> Meanwhile, the complexities of moving country continue to elude me.
09:25:34 <alise> Forgotten about the unit again? Come on!
09:25:52 <augur> but moving country?
09:27:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
09:27:20 <alise> augur: has always been the exit plan.
09:27:37 <augur> where are you moving to? arent you a bit young to flee an entire country?
09:28:21 <alise> It's not like I'm the only person in this household who hates the unit.
09:30:29 <alise> Such as... the parental overlord?
09:30:55 <augur> your /parents/ are considering moving out of the country in order to get you out of the psych ward?
09:34:47 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
09:39:43 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=399
09:40:43 <alise> So not really a replicator.
09:40:57 <alise> Replicators must leave theirselves behind.
09:40:59 -!- tombom has joined.
09:41:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: By that definition a glider is a replicator
09:41:27 <Phantom_Hoover> No, because there are never two copies in existence at the same time.
09:42:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, it would be easy to rewrite the program tape to disable the destruction arm.
09:42:07 <alise> "That would be the 13th spaceship velocity in Life attained so far."
09:42:15 <alise> Yes, that is the truly impressive thing about it, its speed :P
09:42:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, there has been a long-lasting search for an oblique spaceship.
09:44:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Keeping track of the spaceship velocities is pointless now, though.
09:44:56 <alise> It isn't; this spaceship will only handle multiples of some N above a certain constant.
09:45:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Someone mentioned a proof that a UC-based spaceship could go at any velocity less than c/2.
09:46:24 <alise> Greater, surely, not less.
09:46:28 <alise> Anyway, yes, theoretically, but this model not.
09:46:44 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: What, so diagonal c/3?
09:46:48 <alise> That is impossible.
09:46:57 <alise> <alise> Greater, surely, not less. <-- no, less
09:48:11 <alise> The bounding box is 4217802x4220190 instead of 4217807x4220191 (I was too lazy to renormalize it to the original phase) and it moves correspondingly faster, (5120,1024)c/33699578. Let's see, this is the fourteenth explicitly constructed spaceship speed -- and I think it was probably time to stop counting at thirteen...!
09:48:43 <alise> "Gemini can be accelerated by another 4064 generations (and shortened by 508fd) beyond what Dave has done. Any further and it crashes."
09:52:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not very familiar with Herschel technology, annoyingly...
09:52:22 <alise> I'MA DOWNLOAD UBUNTU LOL.
09:53:47 <alise> I hit 8MiB/s there
09:54:08 <alise> I am so close to the exchange that I could have a 64 megabit connection.
09:54:11 <alise> But it is capped :(
09:54:55 -!- FireFly has joined.
09:57:51 <alise> "the maximum period of a spaceship in an x * x box is an uncomputable function in x, similar in nature to the Busy Beaver function."
09:58:16 <alise> I hereby declare the disturbingly named "Conway's beaver" -- Cb(x) -- to be the maximum number of spaceships in Game of Life in a bounding box of x^2.
09:58:56 <augur> http://247wallst.com/2010/05/21/the-limits-of-science-oil-leak-at-95000-barrels-a-day/
09:59:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Consider an exploding pattern.
09:59:05 <alise> How do you KNOW it's never a spacesip?
09:59:10 <alise> It never disappears (terminates).
09:59:14 <alise> It's the same as the Busy Beaver function.
09:59:21 <alise> You don't suppose, you know.
09:59:59 <alise> Cb(0) = 0; Cb(1) = 0; Cb(2) = 0; Cb(3) = 1
10:00:06 <alise> (blank space is a 0-period spaceship)
10:01:01 <alise> Anyway -- hexagonal life. Any work on that?
10:01:13 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Oscillator.gif
10:02:33 <alise> Why do people try and stuff everything into Golly?
10:03:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Because it's the only program with proper support for hashlife.
10:04:06 <alise> 10:04:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Bah, alise isn't going to show up, is he? ;; My gender may be male, but the gender of the nick alise is the gender formed by augmenting the male gender with female pronouns! This is to confuse you and everyone.
10:04:15 <alise> 10:11:18 <Sgego> What time does he usually show up on Friday? ;; Not at all, usually.
10:04:34 <alise> 10:42:47 <Sgego> Igors did not believe in "Forbidden Knowledge" and "Things Man Was Not Meant To Know" but obviously there were /some/ things a man was not meant to know, such as what it felt like to have every single particle of your body sucked into a little hole, and that seemed to be one of the options available in the imediate future.
10:04:34 <alise> 10:42:56 <Sgego> --Terry Pratchett, Theif of Time
10:04:34 <alise> 10:43:00 <Sgego> *Thief
10:06:18 <alise> I MUST GO -- AND I MAY NOT BE BACK AGAIN --
10:19:39 <alise> 12:46:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Ashes to Ashes is on next.
10:20:06 <alise> I watched it and was vastly disappointed but then I stopped following as soon as Life on Mars ended, so I'm sort of missing every bit of context imaginable.
10:20:10 <alise> 12:46:26 * impomatic never watches TV
10:22:26 <alise> 16:20:58 --- nick: elliottcable -> HARPOONS
10:22:27 <alise> 16:22:19 --- nick: HARPOONS -> elliottcable
10:37:40 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
10:38:08 <alise> 08:24:31 <Phantom_Hoover> So travelling along the time dimension means your speed is dt/dt, which makes no sense.
10:38:13 <alise> We're all really standing still, dude.
10:38:47 <alise> 11:19:08 <fizzie> You should take an unicode-shower.
10:39:38 <alise> 11:22:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, now, does that ever exist outside pure math? as in real world. Drawn circles and so on
10:39:51 <alise> you ["almost certainly"] cannot store infinite amounts of information in finite space
10:39:56 <alise> so, no, true circles do not exist
10:41:47 <alise> 11:33:29 <oerjan> AnMaster: perhaps the original character set had different forms for variations of the same character
10:41:52 <alise> yeah they did a bunch of Han unification for unicode so
10:42:35 <alise> 11:37:24 <pikhq> AnMaster: Han unification is the process whereby the glyphs for pretty much all CJK characters were merged into codepoints based on abstract meaning, regardless of (sometimes quite major) glyph variations.
10:42:44 <alise> it's also why the japanese... don't use unicode.
10:51:57 <Zuu> Is this some kind of bot?
10:53:00 <alise> No, I just logread because I can't be here Monday-to-Friday.
10:53:14 <alise> Before that I was basically the most regular regular here; I believe I've talked to you under a different nick.
10:53:54 <Zuu> I dont think you have, unless the different nick was in the form of Zuu<something_else>
10:54:15 * Zuu sticks to his nick :)
10:54:15 <alise> My nick was the one that was different.
10:54:42 <Zuu> ehird, that sounds familiar, yes :)
10:55:32 <Zuu> At least familiar in the sense that i've seen someone use that nick :P
11:27:39 -!- AnMaster has joined.
11:29:27 <alise> Let's KEEL EVERYBODY
11:35:51 <fizzie> AnMaster: Wasn't it so that you haven't done any money-changery recently? I found some made-in-1976 SEKs, and quick googling seems to suggest that they're still just fine.
11:42:03 <AnMaster> oh you mean changing to EUR or such
11:42:21 <AnMaster> well correct, they should be fine
11:42:30 <fizzie> Or just different style of coinage. We did a one-to-one mapping even during the FIM age in the 1990s or so.
11:43:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, well actually, for the non-coins there might be an issue
11:43:16 <fizzie> I have no clue. But we got those fancy two-different-colors-of-metals coins for it.
11:43:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, what with the 20 SEK changing size
11:43:32 <AnMaster> not sure the old one is still legal tender
11:43:36 <fizzie> I think they added the 10 FIM coin at that point, too; 5 FIM used to be the largest.
11:43:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, well that sort of things happened before I knpow
11:44:15 <alise> fims, seks and flobs
11:44:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, but 0.5, 1, 5, 10 SEK should be valid as coins today
11:44:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, for paper money: 20, 50, 100, 500, 1000, [more iirc but never used those]
11:45:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, but yeah 20 SEK changed size some years ago
11:45:14 <AnMaster> and the other gained more security things
11:45:32 <fizzie> Right. Well, there was just 1*10 + 6*1 SEK wort of it, so it wouldn't been a great loss; I just don't want to get caught when trying to buy a subway ticket or something.
11:45:36 <AnMaster> like holographic stuff in the paper
11:46:09 <AnMaster> those should be perfectly valid afaik
11:46:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, but I'm not sure that is enough for a subway ticket ;P
11:46:53 <fizzie> Probably not, but we've got more, more modern money. I just came across those coins when trying to find some papers.
11:46:58 <fizzie> Time to go catch a bus, bye.
11:47:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, and lots of things like buses in many parts in the country only take credit card or pre-bought ticket these days
11:48:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, as in, no paper money/coins accepted on the bus or such. To reduce risk of someone attacking the driver and stealing it I think
11:58:29 <alise> I like how UNION(0) = 0; UNION(S(w)) = w.
11:59:08 <alise> Clearly we should say ⋃w instead of pred(w).
12:00:15 <alise> (Big-intersection is much more boring, because INTERSECT(0) = 0; INTERSECT(1) = 0; INTERSECT(S(S(w))) = {} intersect ... = 0)
12:01:03 <Sgeo_> Dangit, I knew I should have stayed up 24/7
12:02:31 <Sgeo_> alise, I wanted to say something like "Well, that was an interesting week. Got my laptop working again, the Holy Grail of Life was created, got addicted to Aquaria" or somesuch
12:04:20 <alise> Funny; I got addicted to cocaine!*
12:04:22 <alise> *Not actually true.
12:07:17 * Sgeo_ closes his laptop and goes back to sleep
12:09:10 <alise> Anyone know an algorithm to generate a denormal floating-point number?
12:13:26 <augur> no. do you know an algorithm to take arbitrary pair-based objects and substitute an arbitrary element in them with some arbitrary new element?
12:21:50 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: Wait, you watched the finale of Ashes to Ashes without having watched any of the series?
12:26:13 -!- marchdown has joined.
12:26:14 -!- marchdown has quit (Excess Flood).
12:28:03 -!- marchdown has joined.
12:28:04 -!- marchdown has quit (Excess Flood).
12:28:47 <AnMaster> <alise> Anyone know an algorithm to generate a denormal floating-point number? <-- just enter a small enough constant
12:29:28 <AnMaster> or just write some program to take a number on stdin and write the binary representation to stdout
12:29:29 -!- marchdown has joined.
12:30:42 <AnMaster> alise, I refer you to IEEE 754 for more details of the range
12:30:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:30:49 <AnMaster> alise, wikipedia also have it iirc
12:32:00 <AnMaster> I won't give you my copy of IEEE 754 because it says at the bottom of every page: Authorized licensed use limited to: <name of university>. Downloaded on April 18,2010 at 14:43:10 UTC from IEEE Xplore. Restrictions apply.
12:35:23 <Zuu> Sneaky, it really does say that :/
12:35:44 <AnMaster> Zuu, you have access to ieee xplore too and just checked? or what?
12:35:49 <Zuu> I just fetched it myself
12:36:05 <Zuu> I was curious it it was really true :P
12:36:07 <AnMaster> Zuu, everything from ieee xplore says that
12:36:17 <Zuu> apparently
12:37:16 <AnMaster> btw I wonder what "restrictions apply"
12:38:00 <AnMaster> Zuu, I recommend you print it. Since that is likely outside the margin of the printer ;P
12:38:16 <Zuu> i dont mind it
12:39:11 <Zuu> Because i find it sneaky
12:43:27 -!- marchdown has quit (Quit: marchdown).
12:44:55 -!- kar8nga has joined.
12:56:28 -!- jcp has quit (Quit: Later).
12:59:29 -!- Guest27685 has joined.
13:09:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
13:11:29 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> alise: Wait, you watched the finale of Ashes to Ashes without having watched any of the series?
13:11:38 <alise> <AnMaster> <alise> Anyone know an algorithm to generate a denormal floating-point number? <-- just enter a small enough constant
13:11:52 <alise> <AnMaster> I won't give you my copy of IEEE 754 because it says at the bottom of every page: Authorized licensed use limited to: <name of university>. Downloaded on April 18,2010 at 14:43:10 UTC from IEEE Xplore. Restrictions apply.
13:12:02 <alise> i won't distribute :P
13:12:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: quite
13:12:44 <alise> i watched some of it tho
13:13:09 <alise> and i watched all of life on mars
13:13:21 <AnMaster> alise, the limit for denormal number is mentioned on wikipedia iirc
13:13:24 <alise> AnMaster: finding that constant
13:14:01 <AnMaster> alise, I remember using it from there before having access to IEEE 754
13:17:07 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if it would be practical to implement a von Neumann architecture in Life.
13:29:49 <alise> FLT_MIN isn't a good infinitesimal
13:31:11 <alise> I'm looking for a floating point number such that x^2 = 0.
13:31:23 <alise> These actually exist but right now I'm just using approximations.
13:32:02 <alise> They're called denormal numbers.
13:32:13 <alise> sqrt(machine_epsilon) provides an okay approximation -- by okay I mean meh.
13:34:12 <AnMaster> fits for non-floating point too
13:34:28 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: Surely it depends on the exact nature of the floating-point processor?
13:35:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The IEEE standards are strict enough to require one to exist.
13:36:00 <alise> 0.0003452670 0.0001316071-0.0004272461-0.0006408691-0.0008544922
13:36:00 <alise> -0.0010681152-0.0012817383-0.0014953613-0.0017089844 0.0091266632
13:36:00 <alise> -0.0021362305 0.0086994171-0.0025634766-0.0138244629 0.0191059113
13:36:00 <alise> 0.0078449249-0.0034179688 0.0295143127-0.0259437561 0.0069885254
13:36:01 <alise> 0.0399208069-0.0155334473 0.0173988342-0.0380592346 0.0832633972
13:36:03 <alise> 0.0278053284-0.0276489258-0.0831069946 0.0382118225-0.0172424316
13:36:09 <alise> Table of errors when using sqrt(machine_epsilon)
13:36:31 <alise> Have you forgotten about -i?
13:37:01 <alise> You forgot to specify that you're using a sqrt() extended to work on negative reals, too.
13:37:04 <alise> Not the principal square root.
13:37:35 <alise> So is mandating the use of the letter "i" for the imaginary unit.
13:38:36 <alise> Because i is current
13:38:39 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined.
13:38:48 <alise> [[In the novel The Da Vinci Code, the character Robert Langdon jokes that character Sophie Neveu "believes in the imaginary number i because it helps her break code" (Brown 2003, p. 351).]]
13:38:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i or I.
13:38:59 <alise> (Either way it's confusing)
13:41:31 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:42:09 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
13:42:36 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> They're electronics engineers! <Phantom_Hoover> Burn them! z
13:42:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Eh?
13:43:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I want to know how the circle extends into the complex plane.
13:43:31 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> Just don't call it j. <-- I = 2*e^(-j38°) ;P
13:43:32 <alise> What sense of how?
13:43:50 <alise> AnMaster: Degrees?
13:43:53 <alise> AnMaster: Ugh; go fuck a goat.
13:43:58 <AnMaster> alise, common in electrical engineering
13:44:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Because, for instance, (2, root(3)i) satisfies the equation.
13:44:28 <AnMaster> I'm just describing what happens
13:44:28 <alise> What kind of notation is that?
13:44:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Which root?
13:44:54 <alise> So, you actually meant sqrt.
13:45:03 <alise> You should have said sqrt.
13:45:06 <alise> Burn the witch. Burrrn.
13:45:47 <alise> Fun fact: Pronouncing mathematics is fucktardedly hard
13:45:51 <alise> At least anything non-trivial
13:46:28 <alise> We shall call it... TeX!
13:46:43 <alise> Backslash sqrt oh 2 ah.
13:46:55 <alise> Frac oh 1 ah oh 2 ah.
13:47:00 <Phantom_Hoover> The best thing would be if we had sensible terms for brackets...
13:47:05 <alise> Note: Sufficiently nested expressions just make people think you are engaging in sexual congress.
13:50:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, it TeX is designed to make it look like it would if you wrote it down, not to be said easily.
13:51:40 <alise> Sum k from k equals 1 to n equals n times n plus one [-] over 2
13:51:42 <alise> [-] is a short pause.
13:51:45 <alise> Sum k from k equals 1 to n equals n times n plus one, over 2
13:52:02 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
13:52:06 <alise> Already, however, this is completely incomprehensible to anyone if they can't look at it for a few seconds.
13:54:32 <alise> We don't have a big enough cache to understand things like that, sorry.
13:54:36 <alise> Just bring pencil and paper.
13:54:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Hence we need to stick a cache into people's brains...
13:55:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, does anyone know where that Brainfuck assembler went?
13:57:02 <alise> I have stumbled upon an /excellent/ epsilon value.
13:57:08 <alise> I need pikhq or AnMaster, stat, to explain this.
13:58:19 <alise> Let dx = FLT_MIN * FLT_MAX. Then let D(f,x) = (f(x+dx) - f(x))/dx. Let square(x) = pow(x,2). Now note that D(square, n) - 4 is almost exactly 2*n for all n. The error becomes ~0.0000152588 very quickly.
13:58:34 <alise> Question: Why? Is this just coincidence? And why the almost-constant error of ~4?
14:00:12 <AnMaster> (or stat, not sure who that is)
14:00:28 <alise> AnMaster: That was a joke, right?
14:01:02 <alise> Anyway, hmm, if we consider an infinitesimal e = 1/infinity, then dx = inf * 1/inf = 1.
14:01:22 <alise> 3.99999976158142089843750000000000000000000000000000
14:01:29 <alise> That's why it's such a "good" approximation :P
14:01:47 <alise> Of course, it only works because the derivative of x^2 doesn't mind how big dx is, really, as long as you scale it...
14:02:31 * AnMaster uses a table fan to cool the external harddrive
14:03:10 <alise> AnMaster: can you give me a 64-bit denormal number such that x^2 = 0?
14:03:12 <AnMaster> alise, well I'm doing ddrescue from the disk in question
14:03:15 <alise> it doesn't have to be much smaller than that
14:03:18 <alise> just quite small, you know
14:03:22 <alise> too small and calculations will fuck up
14:03:32 <AnMaster> besides the table fan can't cool both the harddrive and me
14:04:05 <AnMaster> alise, do a binary search? (no idea if this will work...)
14:05:02 <alise> Anyway, yes, too hot. Ow.
14:05:14 <alise> In Stockholm 22C apparently.
14:05:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
14:05:23 <AnMaster> alise, too hot to go to the other room and check the temp
14:05:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Nordic countries have summers.
14:05:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: They just have colder-than-usual winters.
14:05:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's not that bad if you're not in the north actually.
14:05:37 <AnMaster> alise, hot and dry is less annoying than hot and humid
14:05:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Anyone who lives in, say, Britain, could deal with Stockholm or whatever
14:05:54 <alise> Just a bit chillier in the winters
14:06:00 <AnMaster> alise, and it was like 60% humditity in the morning iirc
14:06:06 <alise> AnMaster: It's 25 degrees in Hexham apparently but it's nowhere near that temperature here indoors
14:06:06 <AnMaster> meh I need to go to that room anyway
14:06:08 <alise> 50% humidity apparently
14:06:15 <alise> "Partly cloudy" my ass, fuck you Google, fuck you in the ass
14:08:03 <AnMaster> alise, 23 C, 42% downstairs (indoors)
14:08:21 <fizzie> Finland's been rather warm these last week or two too.
14:09:26 <fizzie> Stockholm's weather forecast looked like it's going to get a bit colder now. But no rain tomorrow-midday, when we have to walk through it, hopefully.
14:09:32 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:09:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'm not in Stockholm thougj
14:10:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, be sure to send updates as you go ;P
14:10:18 <fizzie> Right; but I can never recall where you were, or where it was.
14:10:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, well if you are going by train you are probably going south of Mälaren right?
14:10:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, in which case it is unlikely you will pass nearby
14:10:57 <AnMaster> well, 20 km away or so I guess
14:11:15 <AnMaster> if you were going north of Mälaren you would pass like a few hundred meters away
14:11:19 <fizzie> I guess. I know nothing of you geography, but generally southwards.
14:11:39 <fizzie> It's that X2000 Stockholm-Copenhagen train.
14:11:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, Mälaren = big lake starting from Stockholm and going inwards
14:11:51 <AnMaster> you can go either north or south of it
14:12:13 <AnMaster> the track are connected on the opposite side
14:12:28 -!- oerjan has joined.
14:12:32 <AnMaster> I live quite near that connection point but not close enough to see the south track
14:13:01 <AnMaster> alise, the temp shows 24 C now, but it haven't stabilised yet
14:13:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, as in, ~20 km from the south track meeting up with the north one
14:13:45 <fizzie> There was some sort of train-wlan opportunity, but it cost money, and I'm not made out of it, so skipped.
14:14:34 <fizzie> It's something silly like 3 eur/MB when abroad.
14:14:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, just the single "hi, I'm in Halsberg" would be nice. (that is the closest you will get to me if going the south track)
14:15:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, and that would be a few kB or such I bet for connecting, saying that line, disconnecting.
14:15:53 <fizzie> It's a 250 kB minimum charge too.
14:16:48 <oerjan> halsberg is just in the neck of the woods
14:18:32 <alise> fizzie: Here, you give me a way to calculate a float x s.t. x^2 = 0.
14:19:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, specially since berg = mountain
14:20:02 <AnMaster> that joke ended up as very very bad
14:20:10 <oerjan> well i couldn't fit a mountain in there
14:20:46 <alise> Deewiant: and x =/= 0
14:21:12 <AnMaster> oerjan, does "neck of the woods" mean something?
14:21:55 <oerjan> wait you groaned without getting the whole pune?
14:22:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes it was easily detectable as bad anyway
14:23:05 <AnMaster> btw, copying 250 GB at an average speed of 26 MB/s takes quite a lot of time
14:24:08 <olsner> google says (250 GB) / (26 (MB / s)) = 2.73504274 hours
14:24:14 <alise> Deewiant: isn't that FLT_MIN?
14:24:14 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
14:24:32 <alise> Deewiant: Calculations with FLT_MIN are... unreliable
14:24:37 <Deewiant> p signifies where the exponent is
14:24:40 <alise> Specifically, computing derivatives with them seems to always yield 0
14:24:53 <Deewiant> alise: You wanted "a float which != 0" :-P
14:25:07 <AnMaster> alise, what is FLT_MIN now again?
14:25:18 <alise> Deewiant: Shaddup :P
14:25:26 <alise> AnMaster: smallest float... "sort of"
14:25:43 <Deewiant> Actually that's smaller than FLT_MIN
14:25:48 <AnMaster> alise, smallest normal or smallest denormal?
14:26:19 <Zuu> What are these nomals and denomals you are talking about?
14:26:30 <alise> AnMaster: Not sure.
14:26:34 <alise> Zuu: floating-point oddities
14:26:36 <Deewiant> 1.175494e-38 is FLT_MIN, that's 1.401298e-45
14:26:57 <Zuu> alise: and what is the difference bwtween the two?
14:27:03 <AnMaster> Zuu, a normal fp number starts with a non-zero in the mantissa. A denormal one can start with 0
14:27:30 <AnMaster> Zuu, like: 1.4*10^-3 vs. 0.14*10^-2
14:28:02 <Deewiant> In IEEE 754-2008, they're called subnormal numbers
14:28:05 <AnMaster> Zuu, if the exponent is at minimum number then you can use the denormal numbers to get even smaller numbers
14:28:35 <Zuu> tell me even more i already know
14:28:41 <AnMaster> alise, temp stabilised on 25 C
14:29:11 <Zuu> Hi Deewiant :)
14:29:22 <alise> AnMaster: Your hard drive does not matter as much as you ffs.
14:29:26 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, how is that an abstraction
14:30:06 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, machine level is an abstraction
14:30:28 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, we should program directly in transistors and electrons
14:31:05 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, if the CPU is designed to run BF directly then it is
14:31:26 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, and after this summer there will be a befunge93 CPU I hope :D
14:31:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but it's not low-level when it's running on anything other than them.
14:32:28 <pineapple> AnMaster: you don't take the heat well either?
14:32:41 <AnMaster> alise, how did people manage before fans
14:32:51 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, but do you plan to return?
14:33:25 <AnMaster> alise, well it could be in underdeveloped countries today
14:33:36 <AnMaster> alise, in which case die* would be accurate
14:34:31 <oerjan> <alise> Have you forgotten about -i?
14:34:38 <oerjan> that's for the left-thinking people, duh
14:35:01 <alise> AnMaster: Or he could be talking about only ONE rolling square
14:35:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: What, ever?
14:36:35 <AnMaster> alise, please make more wind pass
14:37:10 <oerjan> AnMaster: <Phantom_Hoover> sqrt(-1) is called i by all right-thinking people!
14:39:04 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:40:52 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
14:45:41 <oerjan> AnMaster: no need to fan the flames further
14:46:42 * AnMaster ponders getting a huge silca gen bag
14:48:39 <Zuu> its 26.6C and 68% humidity here :P
14:50:12 * Zuu notices AnMaster sitting under his table :o
14:52:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, there? do you need to do something special when shutting down when you have mdadm stuff?
14:52:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, like vgchange -a n for lvm
14:57:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, stands for multi disk admin
14:57:49 <oerjan> THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT YOU TO THINK
14:59:39 -!- marchdown has joined.
15:04:40 <AnMaster> "If you are looking to install Arch on something more exotic, such as your kerosene-powered cheese grater, please consult http://wiki.archlinux.org"
15:05:03 <alise> Old text, and also a very old joke. NetBSD did it first.
15:05:06 <AnMaster> alise, probably, never noticed it before
15:05:23 <alise> Cheese: TOTALLY AWESOME
15:05:44 <AnMaster> alise, yes, bovine byproducts often are
15:05:56 <alise> IMAGINE: Chicken milk.
15:06:01 <alise> Now you have imagined chicken milk
15:06:54 <oerjan> whew, that's disgusting!
15:08:13 <alise> oerjan: You're disgusting!
15:12:17 <alise> 14:16:28 <oerjan> used to be functional analysis and dynamical systems
15:12:23 <alise> dynamical, the most redundantest of words
15:13:36 <oerjan> i suppose the opposite would be static systems
15:14:14 <alise> milk... that is milked out of MILK
15:15:05 <AnMaster> that is used to drive a perpetum mobile
15:15:51 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
15:16:01 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it is also a perpetual motion machine
15:16:40 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, at least it is in Swedish
15:16:48 <AnMaster> and it sounds very much like latin
15:16:53 <AnMaster> so I assume it was the same in English
15:16:59 <oerjan> presumably because it is (latin)
15:17:07 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, "This article is about a musical term. Please see perpetual motion for the physical concept, Perpetuum Mobile (album) for the album, and perpetual motion (disambiguation) for other uses."
15:18:14 <oerjan> english just likes to twist the suffixes around a bit
15:20:36 <oerjan> Det är en evighetsmaskin!
15:21:28 -!- hiato has joined.
15:21:54 <oerjan> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hccf-8BYaDg
15:21:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined.
15:24:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
15:24:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
15:28:42 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow).
15:32:49 <alise> I'm 14 and I feel old!
15:39:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:40:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
15:43:35 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
15:46:27 <alise> Non-standard analysis is awesome.
15:46:37 <uorygl> I'm 17 and I don't feel old.
15:46:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Evidently you haven't been doing enough esoteric programming.
15:47:29 <uorygl> So, often, I look at Wikipedia, see some content, and feel like it should be removed.
15:47:36 <uorygl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senior_Skip_Day
15:48:14 * uorygl deletes all but the first sentence.
15:49:03 <oerjan> a deletionist! burn him!
15:49:29 <uorygl> My edit summary: "Removed some apparent original research and some non-factual content."
15:50:56 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
15:56:21 <alise> uorygl: You left an empty references section, GJ deletionist
15:56:38 <AnMaster> dropped to initram fs root shell
15:57:44 <uorygl> alise: eh, stick a "This article doesn't have any references!" template in there and call it good.
15:57:53 <alise> Or just remove the section.
15:57:59 <alise> It's an empty header; that's not good in any situation
15:58:06 <uorygl> Or shrink the "External links" section, thereby making the external link a reference. :P
15:58:25 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, couldn't mount /
15:58:25 <uorygl> Say, shouldn't that be an "External link" section, since there's only one?
15:58:32 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, due to not finding the device
15:58:42 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, due to the initramfs missing the software raid tool
15:59:11 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, so now I'm just going to compile my own kernel which won
16:00:25 <uorygl> Nope, WP:LAY says that it should be plural.
16:00:26 <AnMaster> will move laptop and do it over ssh
16:01:02 <AnMaster> lets see if znc manages the jarring change from eth0 to wlan0 fine or not
16:02:03 <uorygl> alise: two Ts in your first name, right?
16:02:18 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
16:02:23 <alise> uorygl: I'd like to know why before I answer that :-)
16:03:17 -!- ZeroOne has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
16:03:36 * uorygl takes that as a "yes".
16:03:41 <uorygl> Trust me, it's easier to explain this way. :P
16:04:13 <uorygl> New edit summary: 'Removed empty "References" section. Thanks, Elliott!'
16:04:48 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:05:25 -!- AnMaster has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
16:05:36 * alise feels vague uncomfortability at being referred to online by eir own name but cannot seem to articulate why after-the-fact
16:05:48 <alise> I'd appreciate it if you'd answered my question before doing that
16:07:57 -!- AnMaster has joined.
16:08:56 <alise> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=(1%2Fa)^n+%3D+a^-n WHAT IS THIS PLOT.
16:09:25 <AnMaster> that is pretty conclusive proof it didn't work
16:09:39 <alise> It's like someone doing a really ridiculous drawing
16:09:52 <uorygl> alise: wow, that's a really impressive plot.
16:10:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Have you tried pugging it into Mathematica and seeing if it's insane too?
16:10:44 <alise> It gets no less insane with different bounds
16:10:47 <alise> AnMaster: It's just a plot.
16:10:59 <alise> In this case a contour plot
16:11:22 <alise> ContourPlot[(a^(-1))^n == a^(-n), {a, 0.076, 5.6}, {n, 4.6, 14}]
16:11:25 <alise> Don't know why it picked those bounds
16:11:29 <alise> Maybe it selects something suitably insane
16:12:16 <AnMaster> alise, but it says it is true for all positive n and a below
16:12:21 <AnMaster> Alternate form assuming a and n are positive:
16:12:32 <alise> Yeah, well, it's still awesome
16:12:57 <AnMaster> alise, so the graph seems to be in error
16:13:06 <uorygl> I guess with complex exponentiation, it's not always true.
16:13:18 <uorygl> Since complex exponentiation is a multi-valued function.
16:13:27 <alise> Is it complex though?
16:13:29 <AnMaster> uorygl, look at the plot though
16:13:37 <alise> AnMaster: contour plot is things like
16:13:37 <AnMaster> not complex as far as I can see
16:14:10 <uorygl> AnMaster: complex exponentiation doesn't have to have complex numbers as arguments.
16:15:17 <uorygl> With real exponentiation, 1^(1/3) = 1. With complex exponentiation, 1^(1/3) = {1, -1/2 + i sqrt(3)/2, -1/2 - i sqrt(3)/2}.
16:15:26 <alise> uorygl: True but I don't think it's using complex exponentiation
16:15:30 <alise> I mean, why would it?
16:15:46 <alise> Because ^ is real exponentiation in Mathematica.
16:16:08 <alise> Although, you may be right.
16:16:44 <alise> I am not sure it even has complex exponentiation on non-complexes
16:19:39 <AnMaster> alise, what does (1+0i)^(1/3) show (rewrite to mathematica notation as required)
16:20:05 <alise> In[40]:= (1 + 0 I)^(1/3)
16:22:26 <alise> In[41]:= ComplexExpand[(a + 0 I)^b]
16:22:26 <alise> Out[41]= (a^2)^(b/2) Cos[b Arg[a]] + I (a^2)^(b/2) Sin[b Arg[a]]
16:22:36 <alise> So maybe ContourPlot IS using complexes.
16:22:45 <alise> In[42]:= ComplexExpand[a^b]
16:22:45 <alise> Out[42]= (a^2)^(b/2) Cos[b Arg[a]] + I (a^2)^(b/2) Sin[b Arg[a]]
16:34:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:34:56 -!- Gregor has joined.
16:39:25 -!- Slereah has quit (*.net *.split).
16:41:19 -!- Slereah has joined.
16:43:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:57:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover hooves up phantoms.
17:00:20 <alise> guys -- copying 1.8G from one drive to another
17:00:22 <alise> how long will it take?
17:01:48 <pineapple> and if different, how are you accessing the files? scp feels like it's slower than max network speed
17:01:51 <alise> pineapple: Same computer
17:01:59 <alise> scp is slower because of encryption overhead I think
17:02:03 <alise> Copying to NTFS, from ext
17:02:15 <alise> I might tar it all up first
17:02:19 <alise> same thing though, basically
17:02:30 <pineapple> and also i think that it gets an additional penalty for lots of smaller files
17:02:30 <alise> Drives are, you know, not so good; not slow, but not fast in any way
17:02:43 <pineapple> (not "small" on a ReiserFS scale, mind you)
17:04:43 <pineapple> if i ever make something useful, there may end up being a parent-killing joke as a punchline
17:04:47 <alise> tar -cjf foo/x.tar foo/ won't recurse, right?
17:05:01 <alise> pineapple: Is the implication here that you killed your parents? :P
17:05:24 <pineapple> don't know... i'd be inclined to test in a smaller folder first
17:05:36 <pineapple> and... not yet, but sometimes i feel like it
17:06:16 <pineapple> has why he did it ever been asked?
17:07:28 <alise> I think the evidence points strongly to "he was crazy"
17:07:43 <alise> She was a mail order bride iirc, and he wanted his kids to play violent video games for the /purpose/ of making them tough -- again iirc
17:08:19 <alise> Hans Reiser, creator of ReiserFS.
17:08:21 <alise> He murdered his wife.
17:08:34 <AnMaster> <alise> Phantom_Hoover hooves up phantoms. <-- no he is the ghost of a hoover!
17:08:50 <alise> AnMaster: Or both.
17:08:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No; someone who murders isn't a serial killer.
17:08:59 <alise> And he created the filesystem first.
17:09:23 <alise> Wired did a really cheesy article where they used vaguely-related snippets of ReiserFS code to illustrate the story.
17:09:38 <alise> Like loops and stuff that had "metaphorical implications" if you interpret things like "children" literally and whatnot
17:10:25 <alise> AnMaster: What it says on the tin
17:10:39 <pineapple> i know what it means, but not how to explain it
17:10:39 <alise> In 1998, while working in Saint Petersburg, Russia, Hans Reiser reportedly selected from a mail-order bride catalogue,[9] and subsequently married, Nina Sharanova (Нина Шаранова), a Russian-born and trained obstetrician and gynecologist[10] who was studying to become an American licensed OB/GYN.
17:10:55 <alise> AnMaster: Send mail, obtain hot russian, endless sex <-- this is the general theory
17:11:06 <AnMaster> alise, but what do the russian think of it
17:11:13 <alise> AnMaster: I imagine they don't give a shit.
17:11:19 <alise> Oh, the russian in particular.
17:11:22 <alise> Yeah, to get into the states.
17:11:42 <alise> It's basically legalised human trafficking & sex slavery :P
17:12:05 <alise> Although if she was an OB/GYN probably a bit more benign than that.
17:12:34 <alise> Okay, now to copy contents.tar.gz.
17:12:40 <alise> (Preparing for Ubuntu clean-slate upgrade.)
17:12:45 <alise> This install is a bit crufty.
17:12:56 <alise> And 10.04 is ooh-shiny. And this thing is versions behind; 9.04.
17:13:01 <pineapple> if she had skills then she was probably getting something out of the deal
17:13:22 <pineapple> alise: i'm not sure that 10.04 is worth it
17:13:30 <alise> "Reiser has stated that he met Nina when he went to a date set up by a Russian dating service; Nina had come along to translate for his date. They had two children."
17:13:36 <alise> So really it was a bit more than your typical mail-order marriage.
17:13:44 <alise> pineapple: Well, 9.10 definitely is, and no point upgrading to an old version.
17:13:55 <pineapple> if you're happy to have "more of the same" while still being newer, then i'd recommend 9.10
17:14:00 <alise> I definitely want to have actually recent software! And 10.04 doesn't seem to have any abject *evil* in it, so...
17:14:15 <alise> Upgrading to an old version will not be easy, supported, or, you know, a reasonable thing to do.
17:14:28 <alise> Which is it you hate, the social networking software or the Yahoo! deal?
17:14:32 <pineapple> the default settings leave something to be desired
17:14:51 <pineapple> the social networking and the default gnome theme (the latter of which is at least changable)
17:15:12 <pineapple> although gnome-terminal actually had a useful option added
17:15:28 <alise> I /like/ the new theme.
17:15:35 <alise> And the social networking apps are just fluff to ignore, like so much of Ubuntu.
17:15:40 <alise> I don't mind them much.
17:15:45 <pineapple> option to set the colour of bold normal text as being different from normal text
17:15:46 <alise> 359.96M 43% 12.06MB/s 0:00:37
17:15:49 <alise> This is better than I expected!
17:16:26 <pineapple> i'm using 10.04 as the base system for the LFS install i'm trying to do
17:16:48 <pineapple> trying as in "very trying"... the damn thing crashed while compiling glibc
17:16:58 <alise> use slackware or gentoo for something like that
17:17:00 <alise> ubuntu is too "custom"
17:17:19 <alise> modifies too much stuff, mostly inherited from debian's culture of extensive patching
17:17:32 <alise> anyway fuck lfs, I have more interesting things to do than make a hard-to-maintain linux distro, maybe if it was a good OS and not linux i'd do it
17:17:44 <pineapple> i'm not doing it on my main system
17:17:54 <pineapple> and yes, i already know your opinion on lfs
17:19:18 <alise> I don't believe I've expressed it to you before
17:19:47 <pineapple> it was discussed a couple of weeks ago
17:24:53 -!- kar8nga has joined.
17:34:51 <AnMaster> man: can't execute /usr/bin/less: No such file or directory
17:34:51 <AnMaster> man: command exited with status 255: /usr/bin/less
17:35:06 <AnMaster> and worked fine like: less foo
17:35:19 <alise> AnMaster: not in /usr/bin
17:35:50 <AnMaster> alise, correct. But that doesn't explain it since /etc/man_db.conf didn't have the path to less
17:35:55 <AnMaster> and even setting it to /bin didn't work
17:36:02 <alise> because of your mother.
17:36:28 <AnMaster> she was out in the garden when this happened. so no
17:36:36 <pineapple> workaround: symlink so that /usr/bin/less points to /bin/less
17:37:27 <pineapple> umm... because you don't have a /bin folder in your current...
17:37:33 <pineapple> shit, i don't know how chroot does
17:37:43 <AnMaster> pineapple, unset PAGER fixed it
17:37:54 <AnMaster> the host system exported PAGER=/usr/bin/less
17:38:00 <AnMaster> which was incorrect in the chroot
17:38:24 <AnMaster> pineapple, livecd based on a different distro than the system I'm trying to get working
17:38:27 <pineapple> yeah, i wouldn't have thought of that
17:38:37 <AnMaster> pineapple, took me a few minutes to figure it out too
17:39:09 <AnMaster> but the fact that editing man_db.conf didn't help made me suspect it *was* something in the environment overriding it
17:39:37 <pineapple> i wouldn't have thought to look at man_db.conf either
17:39:39 <AnMaster> there are some other wtf things in the environment there (wrt chroot that is)
17:39:47 <AnMaster> pineapple, well I knew that was declared in there
17:41:03 <AnMaster> btw EDITOR=/bin/nano but in the chroot nano is in /usr/bin
17:43:26 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:45:30 -!- MigoMipo has changed nick to MigoMipo_.
17:45:33 <pineapple> my personal opinion is that nano and less should both be in /bin
17:45:35 -!- MigoMipo_ has changed nick to MigoMipo.
17:45:48 <pineapple> but that's because nano is my main text editor
17:46:20 <pineapple> (applying the old logic of /usr being a seperate partition, i know, but...)
17:48:37 <AnMaster> pineapple, my /usr _is_ a spearate partition
17:48:53 <AnMaster> pineapple, / is on RAID1, /usr is on lvm2 on RAID1
17:49:06 <AnMaster> I'm* trying to get a kernel able to boot this
17:49:15 <pineapple> so you agree with me that root should have access to an editor that ey know how to use in /bin ?
17:49:55 <AnMaster> pineapple, I prefer emacs, but can accept nano otherwise
17:50:18 <pineapple> i don't think i've ever used emacs
17:51:37 <pineapple> i know people in another channel whose primary preference is joe, with nano as the first alternative
17:52:18 <AnMaster> kernel /kernel-current root=/dev/md1 ro
17:52:30 <alise> AnMaster has basically a religious objection to vi.
17:52:39 -!- Deewiant has joined.
17:52:42 <alise> Basically just accept it.
17:52:50 <AnMaster> alise, I find myself unable to do anything in it
17:53:00 <alise> AnMaster: Have you ever considered that might be a problem with you, not vi?
17:53:07 <pineapple> alise: i know a few people that feel that way about vi
17:53:17 <alise> You're not compatible, get over it
17:53:20 <AnMaster> alise, I never claimed it was a vi problem
17:53:38 <AnMaster> I said it was a mutual incompatibility
17:53:49 <pineapple> wait... don't you 2 have each other on ignore?
17:53:49 <alise> You seem a bit too hostile about vi for that to be all the story...
17:53:58 <AnMaster> pineapple, we do from time to time
17:54:12 <AnMaster> alise, well I'm quite happy to use ed
17:54:27 <alise> pineapple: I never ignore AnMaster, he's too hilariously idiotic to miss!
17:54:36 <alise> And that remark will probably make him reinstate his ignore.
17:54:42 <AnMaster> alise, you have ignored me in the past
17:55:45 -!- lament has joined.
17:56:09 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
17:58:55 <alise> I guess I will upgade.
17:59:10 <alise> Are the sound effects annoying? They change them a lot.
17:59:21 <alise> AnMaster: Gnome. XFCE seems nice but then you realise it's quite unpolished and just has a bunch of meh corners.
17:59:28 <alise> Both suck, so better to use the more polished turd.
17:59:34 <alise> AnMaster: Ubuntu from 9.04 to 10.04.
17:59:59 <alise> You know, the startup sounds and whatnot.
18:00:04 <alise> Just wondering if they're irritating; they change a lot.
18:00:06 <AnMaster> alise, oh I never turn those on
18:00:12 <alise> They're on by default.
18:00:24 <AnMaster> alise, then I guess I turn them off. Along with splash screen
18:00:31 <alise> AnMaster: Fluxbox is a bit too "31337"-style. Everything is an annoying right-click menu, and it's fundamentally boring.
18:00:36 <alise> Only interesting thing: the tabbing stuff.
18:01:05 <AnMaster> alise, there is some fluxbox fan at university
18:01:16 <alise> Poke him with forks.
18:01:27 <AnMaster> alise, why do you assume "he"?
18:01:44 <alise> Blame the sexism of the English language.
18:01:52 <alise> I'm not going to say he/she all the time and I forget to use Spivak.
18:01:54 <alise> AnMaster: I'm not joking.
18:02:47 <alise> AnMaster: read this http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html
18:02:50 <alise> if you haven't already
18:05:34 <alise> Interesting fact: You can turn any poem into an Emily Dickinson poem by inserting a lot of line breaks, capitalising random words and inserting a copious amount of em dashes.
18:05:47 <alise> So -- I will Upgrade --
18:05:50 <alise> This Linux -- distribution --
18:06:03 <alise> From nine oh four, to ten oh four --
18:06:39 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:14:27 -!- Dooglass has joined.
18:15:43 -!- Dooglass has left (?).
18:32:05 -!- sdorand has quit (Quit: sdorand).
18:35:35 -!- MizardX has joined.
18:37:10 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.3/20100401080539]).
18:55:44 <pineapple> AnMaster: on the gnome vs xfce choice: i don't know if you're the type who needs to randomly paste shit into a text editor so that you don't forget it while you use the clipboard for other things (something that notepad on windows is well suited to)
18:56:29 <pineapple> but if you are, then xfce is a more favourable choice, as mousepad loads a lot faster than gedit does
18:56:30 <AnMaster> pineapple, what has that got to do with it?
18:56:48 <AnMaster> pineapple, I don't use gedit under gnome
18:57:05 <AnMaster> which is arguably more bloated and has more features
18:57:23 <AnMaster> depends on which language I'm working against
18:57:43 <AnMaster> but what does that have to do with geddit?
18:57:54 <pineapple> jedit is even more bloated than gedit
18:58:03 <pineapple> but i know someone who swears by it
18:58:12 <AnMaster> pineapple, emacs is not bloated then?
18:58:21 <pineapple> because it's the only editor he's found that can handle having 900 files open at once
18:58:27 <AnMaster> pineapple, I mean, I'm using an irc client in emacs atm...
18:58:52 <pineapple> one that doesn't respond to VERSION, evidently
18:59:26 <AnMaster> pineapple, I filter ctcp apart from CTCP ACTION
18:59:55 <pineapple> and... not sure how to respond to that point about emacs
19:04:41 -!- alise has joined.
19:05:01 <alise> Now that I've installed Ubuntu, time to poke it with a rusty stick until it's usable.
19:05:20 <alise> Network meters in XChat: I most definitely do not need those
19:05:31 <AnMaster> alise, I liked those back when I used xchat
19:05:32 <alise> There are only a few things I am adamantly certain of in life but that is one of them
19:05:39 <alise> AnMaster, What do you use now?
19:05:53 <pineapple> we were just talking about that, heh
19:06:10 -!- alise has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
19:06:14 <alise> No mandating what we talk about in here!
19:06:17 <alise> That's, like, the first rule of #esoteric.
19:06:26 <alise> The second rule of #esoteric is not the first rule of #esoteric.
19:06:36 <AnMaster> alise, no, the first rule of #esoteric is that it is the first rule of #erlang
19:06:45 <AnMaster> tab complete channel name sucks
19:06:50 <alise> I liked "the first rule of #esoteric is that it is the first rule of #erlang" more
19:06:52 <alise> And why is ais not here?
19:07:01 <pineapple> just as long as there's no esolangs rule 34...
19:07:05 <AnMaster> alise, because is not absent from here
19:07:07 <alise> The first rule of #erlang is "No mandating what we talk about in #esoteric!".
19:07:17 <AnMaster> pineapple, just mentioning it invented it
19:07:22 <alise> No, it exists platonically.
19:07:25 <alise> Whether or not you mention it.
19:07:38 <pineapple> it violates the principle of rule 34 to hope that it doesn't exist
19:07:39 <AnMaster> alise, no, computer programmers are lazy, it is created on demand
19:07:45 <alise> It may not, however, be realised in a physical form in this universe; thus there are no Rule 34 "challenges", just complaints about the latency between these two realms.
19:07:55 <alise> This is the epistemologically and theologically correct way to interpret rule 34.
19:08:15 <pineapple> you know... now i want to write a short story involving a deity who is the "god of rule 34"
19:08:24 <AnMaster> alise, the youngest person to have that?
19:09:32 <alise> http://www.drexel.edu/univrel/drexelink/story.asp?ID=1594&vol=10&num=2
19:09:36 <alise> 14-year-old Ph.D. student.
19:09:40 <alise> One word: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
19:09:47 <alise> Three words: FUCK. THAT. SHIT.
19:09:50 <alise> pikhq: Bitch, actually.
19:09:56 <alise> Four words: I will destroy her.
19:10:19 <alise> "This is such a phallic vegetable" --a friend, on cucumbers
19:10:42 <pineapple> alise: should i ask how old this friend is/
19:10:55 <alise> He's studying mathematics at Oxford :P
19:11:14 <pineapple> has he actually experienced a cucumber, though?
19:11:20 <alise> He's cutting one right now
19:11:38 <pineapple> that wasn't what i meant by "experienced"
19:11:59 <alise> I'm not shocked by the question, just by the implication that I should ask it.
19:12:06 <alise> Or already know the answer.
19:12:58 <pineapple> "yes, cucumbers are phallic; but i wouldn't recommend them in that way..."
19:13:07 <alise> Answer just back from the source: "No"
19:13:14 <alise> This is a man who has never "experienced" a cucumber.
19:13:23 <alise> "Although the thought did occur to me what it would look like when I went to the checkout with it"
19:13:28 <alise> He is a shining beacon of intellectuality
19:14:30 <pineapple> unrelated: http://s1.b3ta.com/host/creative/42654/1274544726/buickregalgsshowcareatme.jpg
19:14:58 <alise> It's not mind, so i-- OH GOD WHAT
19:17:36 <alise> Empathy is still crap
19:17:55 <poiuy_qwert> anyone here on using a Mac on Snow Leopard?
19:18:03 <alise> No, but I have a Mac on Leopard.
19:19:02 <poiuy_qwert> well I might be looking for some people to try out an esolang interpreter that im currently working on my Mac
19:19:15 <alise> Might be. I see :P
19:19:33 <alise> Is it OS X-specific?
19:20:13 -!- coppro has joined.
19:20:22 <poiuy_qwert> no, i just only have my MacBook Pro and then a family windows machine, so im doing it on my mac then gunna get it going on windows
19:20:35 <alise> poiuy_qwert: I can run it on Linux.
19:20:41 <alise> If it's written in C or similar it'll almost certainly work.
19:21:08 <poiuy_qwert> well actually its fairly high level, but it uses Qt so should be perfectly fine on Linux too
19:21:19 <alise> Why do you need Qt for an interpreter?
19:21:36 <alise> I'd have used SDL.
19:21:51 <poiuy_qwert> i just already had some experience with Qt
19:22:06 <alise> SDL is really simple and more suited for graphics work.
19:22:09 <alise> Qt is mostly GUI interfaces.
19:22:17 <alise> SDL will also make the code run more smoothly and easily on Windows, I think.
19:22:25 <poiuy_qwert> i know Gammaplex used SDL, and thats why I planned to use before, but I didn't feel like learning it too :X
19:22:33 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
19:22:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: DOESN'TMATTER prescriptivist
19:23:13 <alise> GUI forms a single word, even if it is "actually" composed of multiple words.
19:23:25 <poiuy_qwert> Qt also had a lot of extra stuff that made it easier to make, like QTcpSocket and their threading stuff. very easy to y
19:23:25 <alise> "PIN number", "ATM machine", "GUI interface" -- are all perfectly valid.
19:23:27 <alise> pineapple: Acronym.
19:23:31 <alise> Redundant Acronym Syndrome syndrome.
19:23:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It increases readability and understandability.
19:24:04 <alise> OOPS LOL RADAR ENDS WITH "RANGING" HAHA
19:24:22 <alise> WHAT'S THAT IT'S CONSIDERED A SINGLE WORD?
19:25:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So's pleasure.
19:27:01 <alise> WHY OH WHY DOES EVERY GNOME IRC CLIENT SUCK
19:27:38 <AnMaster> <alise> http://www.drexel.edu/univrel/drexelink/story.asp?ID=1594&vol=10&num=2 <-- wow
19:28:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100423140709]).
19:28:19 <alise> THE JEALOUSY IS OVERWHELMING :(
19:28:45 <AnMaster> <alise> He is a shining beacon of intellectuality <-- sarcasm or not?
19:29:39 <AnMaster> alise, hard to tell in that context: 1) <alise> He's studying mathematics at Oxford :P 2) <alise> "Although the thought did occur to me what it would look like when I went to the checkout with it"
19:29:53 <AnMaster> they seem to suggest different things
19:30:03 <alise> Since it came right after the latter... I was being sarcastic.
19:30:30 <AnMaster> <pineapple> unrelated: http://s1.b3ta.com/host/creative/42654/1274544726/buickregalgsshowcareatme.jpg <-- wonderful
19:30:46 <alise> AnMaster: No; horrific.
19:31:50 <alise> Say... I wonder if there's some sort of e-book reader for Linux that uses high-quality typesetting algorithms like those from TeX.
19:32:00 <alise> Does all the nice typographic trimmings, etc.
19:32:28 <AnMaster> alise, aren't ebooks generally pdf anyway?
19:32:51 <alise> There's some standardish format for them
19:33:00 <alise> Can't you get Gutenberg books in some formatted format?
19:33:03 <alise> Instead of the silly plain text
19:33:03 <AnMaster> alise, pdf is fairly common though
19:33:27 <AnMaster> or could be the Swedish equiv. of Gutenberg
19:33:29 <alise> http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext01/2000010ah.htm
19:33:36 <alise> Gutenberg has HTML, but maybe that's just for some books
19:33:52 <AnMaster> actually nordic, not just Swedish
19:34:24 <alise> I think that is the semi-standard one.
19:34:30 <alise> EPUB (short for electronic publication; alternatively capitalized as ePub, EPub, or epub, with "EPUB" preferred by the vendor) is a free and open e-book standard by the International Digital Publishing Forum (IDPF). Files have the extension .epub. EPUB is designed for reflowable content, meaning that the text display can be optimized for the particular display device. The format is meant to function as a single format that publishers and conversion houses c
19:34:30 <alise> an use in-house, as well as for distribution and sale. It supersedes the Open eBook standard.[1]
19:34:36 <pikhq> alise: Gutenberg is an old, old, *old* project.
19:34:38 <alise> * Re-flowable (word wrap) and re-sizable text
19:34:38 <alise> * Inline raster and vector images
19:34:38 <alise> * Embedded metadata
19:34:41 <alise> * Support for alternative renditions in the same file
19:34:43 <alise> * Use of out-of-line and inline xml islands to extend the functionality of EPUB
19:34:46 <alise> pikhq: yeah but i'm meaning "most" books
19:34:59 <alise> anyway not /that/ old, 1971
19:35:07 <alise> weren't they digitising the OED by then?
19:35:28 <pikhq> Still incredibly old in computer-years.
19:35:46 <pikhq> And they didn't start digitising OED for a few more years, IIRC.
19:36:06 <alise> "Two fully-bound print editions of the OED have been published under its current name, in 1928 and 1989."
19:36:12 <alise> I didn't realise there were so few editions of the OED.
19:36:36 <alise> The OED is a bit ridiculous really, you don't need /all/ those words in dead tree.
19:36:49 <pikhq> The OED takes ages to prepare.
19:37:35 <alise> Anyway, what I'm saying is that if you had such a wonderful typesetting program, you could make an eBook reader by... hooking it up to an appropriate screen. Job done.
19:37:45 <alise> You could also port it to other mobile devices, etc.
19:37:45 <AnMaster> alise, you did before there was internet
19:37:54 <AnMaster> there was nowhere to look it up then
19:38:02 <alise> AnMaster: Have you ever seen a full printing of the OED?
19:38:20 <AnMaster> alise, I have seen up to and including "advanced learner's edition" or such iirc
19:38:21 <alise> Even for the most pedantic stickler determined to know about every single word used in relevant history, 90% of the OED is useless.
19:38:37 <alise> AnMaster: The whole thing is... a great many volumes.
19:38:39 <AnMaster> not sure how the full OED looks like
19:38:50 <alise> The dictionary's latest, complete print edition (Second Edition, 1989) was printed in 20 volumes, comprising 291,500 entries in 21,730 pages.
19:39:11 <alise> http://mydailycolumn.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/graphics-mdc-oxford-english-dictionary.jpg
19:39:25 <pikhq> The book barely fits on a CD.
19:39:42 <coppro> wow... that's nearly as big as the Encyclopaedia Britannica
19:39:47 <pikhq> (granted, that's uncompressed *and* with metadata)
19:39:52 <alise> If it's aiming for absolute mass...
19:40:02 <alise> "Woordenboek der Nederlandsche Taal" is a bigger dictionary.
19:40:14 <alise> Published, in parts, 1863-1998.
19:40:16 <pikhq> alise: It's aiming for comprehensive treatment of English.
19:40:30 <alise> pikhq: Beyond comprehensive.
19:40:33 * Sgeo_ is interested in Tremulous again
19:40:35 <alise> It's aiming for fanatical treatment.
19:40:45 <alise> Perhaps even religious treatment. Obsessive-compulsive treatment.
19:42:43 <alise> Update: Apparently the cucumber was "distinctly unsatisfying".
19:43:22 <alise> I am not sure in which sense he meant this.
19:43:27 <alise> And I just answered AnMaster's question
19:44:40 <alise> coppro: do you own the E.B.?
19:45:00 <alise> if so, which edition?
19:46:32 <AnMaster> alise, does the OED just define the words or does it also describe what they mean=?
19:46:42 <AnMaster> define as in listing with gramatical info
19:46:47 <alise> Describe, of course.
19:46:55 <alise> All the condensed OEDs have nothing added to the OED.
19:47:00 <alise> Just cutting downs.
19:47:08 <pikhq> And have comprehensive etymology.
19:47:22 <alise> "The longest entry in the OED2 was for the verb set, which required 60,000 words to describe some 430 senses. As entries began to be revised for the OED3 in sequence starting from M, the longest entry became make in 2000, then put in 2007."
19:47:36 <AnMaster> alise, then there is some pretty heavy Swedish such. So heavy they only finished to to t (iirc). Started over 100 years ago
19:48:05 <AnMaster> (not same as Svenska Adademins Ordlista)
19:48:14 <alise> # Contemporary beliefs about race and ethnicity are included in the Encyclopedia's articles. For example, the entry for "Negro" states, "Mentally the negro is inferior to the white... the arrest or even deterioration of mental development [after adolescence] is no doubt very largely due to the fact that after puberty sexual matters take the first place in the negro's life and thoughts."[4] The article about the American War of Independence attributes the su
19:48:14 <alise> ccess of the United States in part to "a population mainly of good English blood and instincts".[5]
19:48:16 <coppro> alise: My school library does
19:48:29 <coppro> dunno which edition; haven't seen it in a while
19:48:37 <alise> # Many articles are now factually outdated, in particular those on science, technology, international and municipal law, and medicine. For example, the article on the vitamin deficiency disease beriberi speculates that it is caused by a fungus, vitamins not having been discovered at the time. Articles about geographic places mention rail connections and ferry stops in towns that today no longer employ such transport.
19:49:05 <coppro> sounds likely; it's pretty old
19:49:14 <alise> "Encyclopedia Americana" x_x
19:49:23 <alise> coppro: It's still updated; that's only one edition.
19:49:27 <alise> It was first published in the 1700s.
19:49:56 <AnMaster> alise, when was the last edition?
19:50:22 <AnMaster> alise, that no longer has texts like that above I presume?
19:50:27 -!- MigoMipo has changed nick to MigoMipo_.
19:50:29 -!- MigoMipo_ has changed nick to MigoMipo.
19:50:55 <alise> It's a modern encyclopedia.
19:51:01 <alise> A bit rubbish nowadays, but there you go.
19:59:22 -!- cheater2 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
19:59:53 -!- cheater2 has joined.
20:04:48 <AnMaster> package gnome did not depend on xorg-server
20:04:59 <AnMaster> I guess that does make kind of sense
20:05:09 <AnMaster> but it seems somewhat strange still
20:05:47 <pikhq> Only needs the libraries.
20:05:59 <pikhq> It can use a server on another system just fine.
20:06:27 <alise> Ubuntu 10.04 is frighteningly polished.
20:06:30 <alise> Could this OS actually become usable?
20:06:51 <alise> The only words that occur to me are "surely not".
20:09:49 -!- augur has joined.
20:09:59 <pikhq> The next version of Ubuntu will, inevitably, do something absolutely retarded like use a very buggy repository release of Pulseaudio.
20:10:26 <alise> But hey... this is quite nice.
20:11:11 <alise> TERMINAL IS TRANSPARENT BY DEFAULT WHY WHY
20:11:22 <alise> ONLY PEOPLE WHO DON'T ACTUALLY USE THEIR TERMINAL MAKE IT TRANSPARENT
20:11:29 <alise> AnMaster: It's Ubuntu. Of course it's not perfect.
20:12:01 <AnMaster> <alise> ONLY PEOPLE WHO DON'T ACTUALLY USE THEIR TERMINAL MAKE IT TRANSPARENT <-- says a lot about ubuntu
20:12:20 <alise> AnMaster: Not really, because the theme will have been created by graphics designers.
20:12:25 <alise> Who, you know, don't generally use terminals.
20:12:46 <AnMaster> WHAT DO THEY HAVE TO DO WITH THEMES AND GUIs?
20:13:14 <pikhq> AnMaster: Would you prefer to have a programmer do it?
20:13:17 <AnMaster> alise, anyway I will continue to use clearlooks + old gnome icon theme
20:13:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes. twm isn't too bad at all
20:13:32 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:13:38 <alise> Well, a graphics designer/human-computer interaction/typography specialist is who you want to do it.
20:13:41 <pikhq> AnMaster: On the other hand, CDE hurts.
20:13:59 <pikhq> alise: In other words, you want a UI designer to do it. :)
20:14:03 <alise> Graphics designer so that it's pleasing on the eye, human-computer interaction expert for incredibly obvious reasons, and typography to present the information well.
20:14:09 <alise> pikhq: Well, yeah. Exactly.
20:14:11 <pikhq> Pity that those hardly even exist.
20:14:29 * alise installs Emacs, thus directly contributing to the nonexistence of UI designers
20:15:07 <AnMaster> alise, thought the same would apply to vi(m)
20:15:22 <alise> You know, I like this purple colour.
20:15:25 <alise> It's much better than the orange.
20:15:41 <alise> The orange/brown of past Ubunti.
20:15:58 * AnMaster is on a blue ubuntu (no, not kubuntu)
20:16:05 <AnMaster> (just no logo in sight anywhere)
20:16:10 <alise> It's now purple-background with beigey-yellow window colours and dark brown/dark greyish window decoration.
20:16:16 <alise> Plus dark grey menus.
20:16:27 <AnMaster> alise, I prefer very light colours personally
20:16:27 <alise> Something new for a change.
20:16:46 <alise> (So do I but the light version of this theme is hideous and I don't like the other light Gnome themes)
20:16:52 <pineapple> i'd like it if it wasn't a dark theme
20:16:56 <alise> Using a light background would perk this up just fine.
20:17:00 <alise> AnMaster: No thanks.
20:17:05 <alise> Used Clearlooks for months now but not happily
20:17:09 <AnMaster> alise, what is wrong with clearlooks?
20:17:09 <pineapple> i just don't think they work as well as they should do...
20:17:33 <alise> I don't find it very usable.
20:17:58 <alise> For various reasons I find this theme more easily usable, because the menus are better-highlighted, there aren't copious borders everywhere cluttering up the interface, and the default colours are a lot easier on the eyes.
20:18:07 <alise> I just find it more pleasant to use.
20:18:35 <alise> Ubuntuers intersect Emacsers: emacs-snapshot-gtk or emacs23?
20:19:23 <AnMaster> alise, I prefer stable one in general
20:19:32 <AnMaster> not sure what emacs-snapshot-gtk is
20:19:38 <AnMaster> but this laptop is still jaunty
20:19:39 <alise> From trunk, but Emacs trunk never breaks.
20:19:55 <alise> And Debian/Ubuntu would never ship a broken emacs-snapshot anyway.
20:19:55 <AnMaster> alise, it doesn't? It broke on me before
20:20:02 <alise> A /lot/ of people use that package.
20:20:16 <AnMaster> debian or ubuntu wouldn't ship broken versions
20:20:54 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:21:15 * alise loads up HAKMEM to have a little browse.
20:22:11 <alise> Ouch, their ASCII mathematical notation is unreadable :)
20:22:54 <alise> Hey! They have results obtained with MATHLAB in there -- the first ever CAS!
20:23:35 <alise> You /don't know what HAKMEM is/?
20:24:06 <alise> AnMaster: Only one of the most influential and awesome MIT A.I. Lab notes. Circa 1972, it contains many pieces of apocrypha, algorithms, neat tricks, anecdotes, properties, solutions, and, well, everything.
20:24:08 <alise> http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/hakmem/hakmem.html
20:24:30 <AnMaster> "HAKMEM is notable as an early compendium of algorithmic technique, particularly for its practical bent, and as an illustration of the wide-ranging interests of AI Lab people of the time, which included almost anything other than AI research."
20:24:36 <alise> Topics include the "bananananananana..." problem with letter-based Markov chains, algorithms for calculating all kinds of stuff,
20:24:46 <alise> lots and lots of random interesting mathematics,
20:24:58 <alise> games and stuff, ideas for computer programs,
20:25:11 <alise> and machine-specific hardware hacks.
20:25:33 <alise> # Problem 95 Solve chess
20:25:33 <alise> # Problem 96 Solve Go
20:25:39 <alise> Not without ambition, either.
20:25:41 <alise> Solve chess. There are about 10^40 possible positions; in most of them, one side is hopelessly lost.
20:25:41 <alise> Solve Go. About 10^170 positions.]]
20:26:16 <alise> AnMaster: Anyway if you can get past the hideous ASCIImathematics (it's not linear, it's just really ugly 2D notation) it's a joy to read.
20:26:38 <AnMaster> alise, example of the notation?
20:26:44 <alise> Lots of famous figures referred to in it
20:27:04 <alise> A0 - A1 + A2 - ... = > -----------------
20:27:10 <alise> (where (DELTA A0) = > BINOMIAL(K, m) (-1) Am = Kth forward difference on A0)
20:27:27 <alise> ! ! (ROOT - ROOT ) = square of determinant whose i,j element is
20:27:27 <pikhq> Thank $diety for TeX
20:27:41 <alise> pikhq: Yeah, but still, you gotta admire these guys for typesetting non-trivial mathematics like that.
20:27:52 <alise> It was, after all, done on a PDP in the 70s.
20:27:56 <pikhq> alise: True. That's pretty dang hard to do in ASCII.
20:28:07 <alise> [[In work on education at our lab, we built a motorized "turtle" controlled by computer commands in the child-oriented language "Logo".]]
20:28:13 <pikhq> Particularly when you consider that the whole idea of a *visual editor* was relatively new.
20:28:26 <alise> To be honest, though, they should have just handwritten it like so:
20:28:26 <alise> http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/hakmem/Item187I.gif
20:28:41 <alise> But then the formulas were designed for snarfing into other stuff, I suspect, while doing that with the diagram would be patently impossible in the 70s.
20:28:53 <pikhq> Or got Knuth to invent TeX a bit faster.
20:29:08 <alise> Could have given it in linear, computerised notation + a drawing of the mathematical notation.
20:29:47 <alise> Proving that short programs are neither trivial nor exhausted yet, there is the following:
20:29:48 <alise> This is a display hack (that is, it makes pretty patterns) with the low 9 bits = Y and the 9 next higher = X; also, it makes interesting, related noises with a stereo amplifier hooked to the X and Y signals. Recommended variations include:
20:29:51 <alise> CHANGE: GOOD INITIAL CONTENTS OF 1:
20:29:53 <alise> none 377767,,377767; 757777,,757757; etc.
20:29:55 <alise> TLC 1,2(1) 373777,,0; 300000,,0
20:29:57 <alise> TLC 1,3(1) -2,,-2; -5,,-1; -6,,-1
20:29:59 <alise> ROT 1,1 7,,7; A0000B,,A0000B
20:30:01 <alise> ROTC 1,11 ;Can't use TLCA over data.
20:30:05 <alise> So interesting to see the very theoretical mathematics juxtaposed with dirty PDP tricks.
20:30:10 <alise> I wish I was in the AI Lab back then... and born.
20:30:23 <pikhq> Much awesomeness was happening then.
20:30:24 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:30:31 <alise> The myth that any given programming language is machine independent is easily exploded by computing the sum of powers of 2.
20:30:31 <alise> * If the result loops with period = 1 with sign +, you are on a sign-magnitude machine.
20:30:31 <alise> * If the result loops with period = 1 at -1, you are on a twos-complement machine.
20:30:31 <alise> * If the result loops with period > 1, including the beginning, you are on a ones-complement machine.
20:30:31 <alise> * If the result loops with period > 1, not including the beginning, your machine isn't binary -- the pattern should tell you the base.
20:30:34 <alise> * If you run out of memory, you are on a string or Bignum system.
20:30:35 <alise> * If arithmetic overflow is a fatal error, some fascist pig with a read-only mind is trying to enforce machine independence. But the very ability to trap overflow is machine dependent.
20:30:38 <alise> By this strategy, consider the universe, or, more precisely, algebra:
20:30:40 <alise> let X = the sum of many powers of two = ...111111
20:30:42 <alise> now add X to itself; X + X = ...111110
20:30:45 <alise> thus, 2X = X - 1 so X = -1
20:30:46 <alise> therefore algebra is run on a machine (the universe) which is twos-complement.
20:31:43 <alise> That uses the sum of powers of two = -1 result :-)
20:34:18 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:43:03 <alise> K(m) = I ------------------------- dt
20:43:03 <alise> / sqrt((1 - t ) (1 - m t ))
20:43:08 <alise> Why did they use such strange ASCII notation for big symbols?
20:43:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:48:14 <alise> Ugh; this video driver is wonky.
20:51:28 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
20:52:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, alise, I've been thinking about the c signal thing.
20:52:13 -!- hiato has joined.
20:52:38 <Phantom_Hoover> It is possible to have signals that travel at c but stop, but they have to be subject to some restrictions.
20:53:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Oh?
20:53:20 <alise> pikhq: Are you there
20:53:48 <alise> Do you have a nvidia card?
20:53:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Basically, the distance left to go has to be encoded into the first row of cells.
20:54:17 <pikhq> Because my onboard video card is ATi, and I'm too lazy to get an Nvidia card.
20:54:28 <alise> But, but, I need help with a driver.
20:54:34 <pikhq> But eh, it's alright. The free software drivers for ATi cards don't suck too bad.
20:54:49 <pikhq> I've used Nvidia in the past.
20:54:53 <pikhq> Whaddya need help with?
20:56:07 <alise> I'm using the "current" nvidia drivers, but I can switch to versions 96 and 173.
20:56:20 <alise> In Emacs 23, after a while, text distorts with random lines and stuff.
20:56:31 <alise> Pretty soon the actual typed text becomes incomprehensible blobs of random black and white.
20:57:25 <pikhq> Doesn't Ubuntu default to Nouveau drivers?
20:57:46 <alise> pikhq: http://imgur.com/D7aCd.png
20:57:51 <alise> pikhq: Yes, but those distorted every single piece of text.
20:57:55 <alise> Which I thought was significantly worse.
20:58:17 <pikhq> I have never ever ever seen that behavior with official Nvidia drivers.
20:58:49 <alise> This is a shitty onboard nvidia card btw.
20:58:58 <alise> I wonder if disabling Compiz would help.
20:59:01 <pikhq> Nvidia's drivers for Linux are very well-tested. Same drivers used for Windows, in fact.
20:59:08 <alise> This didn't happen in 9.04, by the way.
20:59:12 <pikhq> (they interact with kernels via an abstraction layer)
20:59:18 <alise> pikhq: I'm wondering if downgrading might help; they may have done changes without testing old low-end models.
20:59:31 <alise> Also, only Emacs does this.
20:59:32 <pikhq> That seems plausible.
20:59:34 <alise> pikhq: Requires a reboot, so...
20:59:43 <alise> I guess I could just restart X.
20:59:46 <alise> But defying Ubuntu is Unwise.
20:59:53 <AnMaster> alise, I use 173 series drivers, not the last ones there. For other bugs
21:00:05 <alise> I might do that, then.
21:00:36 <AnMaster> alise, completely different bug though
21:00:47 <AnMaster> alise, also you need something that supports your card
21:01:32 <AnMaster> <alise> This didn't happen in 9.04, by the way. <-- what about 9.10?
21:02:03 <alise> Has never graced this machine.
21:03:48 <alise> Just didn't upgrade. It's an old machine.
21:05:13 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
21:08:43 <pikhq> Oh dear. I just looked at shish.c again.
21:08:52 <pikhq> My goodness that was crazy code.
21:12:36 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/QcPH
21:12:50 <pikhq> Needs to be built with -nostdlib
21:16:13 <pikhq> Yes, it was written a while back.
21:20:20 <alise> shish.c:57: error: __NR_waitpid undeclared (first use in this function)
21:20:21 <alise> shish.c:57: error: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once
21:20:21 <alise> shish.c:57: error: for each function it appears in.)
21:20:39 <AnMaster> I doubt -m32 will help with THAT
21:20:50 <alise> it's the header files I need
21:21:32 <AnMaster> alise, well yes maybe but more importantly is that int $0x80 doesn't work to do a system call on x86_64 linux afaik
21:22:09 <AnMaster> alise, it is syscall or nothing iirc
21:22:11 <pikhq> And my string comparison trick might not work either.
21:22:40 <alise> /* shit shell -- Copyright Jeffry Johnston, Josiah Worcester 2010. License: GNU GPLv3 */
21:22:42 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, I am one of the two authors.
21:22:59 <alise> Jeffry is calamari.
21:23:00 <pikhq> Josiah "pikhq" Worcester
21:23:06 <alise> *"Pik Headquarters"
21:23:55 <pikhq> alise: So I was 8, into Pokemon, and trying to make a website when I first started having screennames...
21:24:12 <alise> Jeffry is a typo too.
21:24:18 <alise> His name is one big typo.
21:24:24 <alise> Jeffry Johnston is correct.
21:24:34 <alise> Correct as in "dear parents why god why" correct.
21:24:41 <alise> pikhq: Wait, what does pikhq have to do with pokemans?
21:24:50 <pikhq> alise: pik->pikachu
21:25:03 <alise> Your name is pronounced like "pikachu"?
21:25:06 <alise> Wow. I never knew!
21:25:16 <pikhq> ... Pik-etch-kyuu. Yes.
21:25:18 <alise> I never new q -> chu.
21:25:35 <alise> pika: Mind if I call you pika?
21:25:42 <alise> Or would pika-pikAA be better?
21:26:02 <AnMaster> ouch my mouth, these smilies hurt
21:26:28 -!- alise has changed nick to raihq.
21:26:30 <pikhq> Anyways. I was 8, and I'm too lazy to change my nickname.
21:26:44 <raihq> pikhq: I evolved from you.
21:26:47 <pikhq> It's freaking been 12 years now. I think it's just stuck.
21:26:54 <raihq> POKEMON: Totally how evolution really works.
21:27:02 <pikhq> raihq: You bastard, finding a thunderstone.
21:27:12 -!- raihq has changed nick to pihq.
21:27:17 <pihq> Diminutive am I.
21:27:33 -!- pihq has changed nick to alise.
21:27:51 <AnMaster> I'm afraid my nickname is pretty much stuck in a similar way
21:28:06 <alise> AnMaster unfortunately refuses to become an hero. -- example usage.
21:28:31 <pikhq> "an h" always hurts to look at.
21:29:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Trolling is a art.
21:29:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: In other words, you fail hard.
21:29:48 <Phantom_Hoover> "You say 'erb', we say 'herb', because there's a fucking h in it."
21:30:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You truly are oblivious, aren't you?
21:30:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway: An honour killing.
21:30:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "an hero" is intentional.
21:30:45 <alise> But, I repeat: an honour killing.
21:30:48 <pikhq> alise: See, that usage of "an" doesn't hurt because the "h" is unpronounced.
21:30:54 <alise> pikhq: I was rebutting:
21:30:56 <alise> <Phantom_Hoover> "You say 'erb', we say 'herb', because there's a fucking h in it."
21:31:04 <alise> There is a fucking "h" in "honour".
21:31:09 <alise> But it's "an honour killing".
21:31:20 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: You say "haa nur"?
21:31:29 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: YOU FIRST
21:31:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: STOP WHINING ABOUT STUFF, PRESCRIPTIVIST
21:32:00 <AnMaster> alise, when measuring gear ratio, if you are gearing down relative the motor, is it 1:45 or 45:1 ?
21:32:13 <alise> AnMaster: My expert opinion is that it is 45:1.
21:32:37 <AnMaster> YAY 45:1 is the perfect gear ratio!
21:33:01 <AnMaster> alise, well blame lego for making the wrong engine speeds then
21:33:14 <AnMaster> it is the perfect gear ratio for this application
21:33:41 <AnMaster> which is to turn the turn table of the panohead for the camera
21:33:48 <pikhq> "An analogous distinction to that of "a" and "an" was once present for possessive determiners as well. For example, "my" and "thy" became "mine" and "thine" before a vowel, as in "mine eyes". This usage is now obsolete."
21:33:55 <pikhq> ... That usage is obsolete?
21:34:03 <pikhq> I honestly never realised.
21:34:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, who would say "mine eyes"?
21:34:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, lots of "obsolete" things are used for humourous effect.
21:34:32 <pikhq> AnMaster: I would.
21:34:53 <alise> pikhq also says thou and such :P
21:35:03 <pikhq> 's an *unintentional* archaicism from me, though.
21:35:12 <pikhq> alise: Yes, but I'm *aware* that that's archaic.
21:35:16 <AnMaster> which sounds extremely archaic
21:35:28 <pikhq> AnMaster: Archaicisms amuse me.
21:35:36 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what does that even mean?
21:35:49 <pikhq> AnMaster: ~= "heaven forbid".
21:35:53 * AnMaster will begin saying anno domino bricks
21:36:13 * pikhq actually does say anno domini
21:36:45 * pikhq also says etc. as et cetra with a hard 'c', because Church Latin sucks
21:36:53 <AnMaster> (not sure how to translate that)
21:37:07 <pikhq> "In the Year of our Lord"?
21:37:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, google translate suggests "in the year of grace" but I suspect your suggestion is better
21:37:44 <pikhq> (this was used in English up until about the 1800s)
21:37:56 <AnMaster> but same meaning as what you suggested
21:38:15 <pikhq> For instance, the Declaration of Independence is dated "1776, in the Year of our Lord"
21:38:18 <AnMaster> pikhq, it is extremely archaic in Swedish
21:38:41 <pikhq> It had a somewhat formal tone to it even then, though.
21:42:27 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
21:42:44 <alise> * pikhq also says etc. as et cetra with a hard 'c', because Church Latin sucks
21:42:52 <alise> Sheesh, we all know "etc." is pronounced "and c"!
21:43:57 <pikhq> alise: So you too know that the ampersand is a ligature of et.
21:44:12 <pikhq> I was actually uncapable of writing it until I learned that.
21:45:04 <alise> The prettiest ampersands are written like that.
21:45:18 <alise> The vulgar & form in which that almost certainly just displayed is hideous.
21:45:33 <alise> Here's one I particularly like: http://www.merton.ox.ac.uk/images/indexquote.jpg
21:45:40 <alise> But I also like the regular Et versions.
21:46:04 <alise> pikhq: Whenever I typeset "etc.", I set "&c." in an italic font with an ampersand that closely resembles Et.
21:46:13 <alise> Very nice results.
21:46:21 <alise> Also, don't you mean incapable?
21:46:40 <pikhq> alise: Yes, yes I do.
21:47:19 <pikhq> But, yeah. I write it as a ligature because I really have no clue how you're supposed to write the more typical form.
21:47:23 -!- augur has joined.
21:47:27 <alise> I can do it, it just looks ugly.
21:47:37 <pikhq> And thel ligature looks nice.
21:47:57 <alise> Probably the best way to handwrite & is a curly E with two sticks at top and bottom, but the Et form is certainly the prettiest and it's the one I use even though my handwriting is atrocious (like that of a three year old's).
21:48:15 <alise> I have no desire to improve my handwriting, though, because, um, it doesn't fucking matter.
21:48:25 <pikhq> Learn Chinese, and your handwriting shall improve! :P
21:49:34 <alise> As will my ability to communicate with people in fascist countries!
21:49:56 <pikhq> And mostly unrecognised ones!
21:50:03 <alise> "Hi there!" "Hi!" "JUNE FOURTH INCIDENT LOL (runs away)"
21:50:06 <AnMaster> alise, if your have a & that is bound together at a top the best way is the form the lower curve then continue with the upper
21:50:22 <pikhq> (The Republic of China is certainly not fascist, but not exactly recognised by most nations)
21:50:24 <AnMaster> the symbol on my keyboard is bound together like that
21:50:31 <AnMaster> the symbol in this font is not
21:50:40 <alise> South Korea seems to be the sanest of that block of countries.
21:51:02 <alise> (Why did I forget about Japan?)
21:51:17 <AnMaster> alise, because manga and anime aren't sane? ;P
21:51:45 <alise> It's not like surrounding countries don't inherit some of the manga/anime culture.
21:52:04 <alise> Anyway it's not something I'd call "insane"; I'd call Japanese culture fucked up for entirely different reasons
21:52:11 <alise> Such as... their entire attitude to sex.
21:52:22 <alise> Also, Taiwan is better than China but not by /that/ much.
21:52:50 <pikhq> alise: What, you're not going to go for Japanese nationalism as what's really fucked up about it?
21:53:02 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: laptop work ensues).
21:53:07 <AnMaster> what is fucked up about the view on sex+
21:53:37 <alise> AnMaster: They have a very, very stifled and prudish attitude towards sex -- which just means that closeted perversion is the norm.
21:53:45 <alise> And Japanese marriage isn't so very nice either.
21:54:10 <alise> AnMaster: (This also results in strange things such as having hentai manga not actually making you a complete social outcast.)
21:54:31 <alise> No, I'm serious; people have it on the train.
21:54:37 <alise> pikhq: Okay, well, yes, that too.
21:54:46 <AnMaster> alise, what about nintendo love hotel?
21:55:12 <pikhq> AnMaster: Love hotels are both the result of perversion *and* just a fairly simple practical need...
21:55:29 <pikhq> Dense population makes reasonable amounts of privacy when having sex hard.
21:55:37 <alise> Ah, I love Nintendo's history!
21:55:38 -!- ws has joined.
21:55:40 <AnMaster> alise, closeted perversion + hentai on the train OK... doesn't add up
21:55:47 <alise> AnMaster: Well, it doesn't, does it.
21:55:50 <pikhq> Particularly with children.
21:55:51 <alise> I told you it was fucked up.
21:56:15 <alise> Nintendo: [1889] Handmade card company --> cab company & love hotel --> video games [2010]
21:56:33 <alise> Yes, and a TV network.
21:56:36 <AnMaster> alise, did the continue with the cards during that time?
21:56:39 <pikhq> They still have the card company, I think.
21:56:41 <alise> And they tried to sell instant rice -- like instant noodles.
21:56:54 <alise> [[Nintendo continues to manufacture playing cards in Japan[11] and organizes its own contract bridge tournament called the "Nintendo Cup".[12]]]
21:57:04 <pikhq> They've ventured out into a fairly large number of things.
21:57:25 <pikhq> And they run the Seattle Mariners.
21:57:29 <alise> Anyway, I hate Nintendo. Why? Super Mario Galaxy.
21:57:50 <alise> You complete the game, it's easy. Now you do all the levels you didn't do, including the single most evil level of any video game ever created: Luigi's Purple Coins (YOU DO NOT WANT TO KNOW).
21:58:01 <alise> Then you play the entire game again, including boss level, as Luigi, who jumps and moves differently.
21:58:19 <alise> Oh, did I mention? Before Luigi you do the boss level again.
21:58:22 <alise> Then you finish off all the levels you didn't do as Luigi.
21:58:27 <alise> Then you do the boss level for the fourth and final time.
21:58:37 <alise> Now you get one shitty, small congratulation world that you can do in five minutes and is not much at all.
21:58:39 <alise> Do it as both Luigi and Mario.
21:58:43 <alise> Tada, you now hate life.
21:59:16 <pikhq> Do not do 100% completion on games. It isn't worth it.
21:59:29 <pikhq> Except *possibly* Mario 64?
21:59:32 -!- bughi has joined.
22:01:46 -!- bughi has left (?).
22:03:40 <alise> pikhq: Nothing else to play at the unit, though.
22:03:54 <alise> Except Mario Kart, which is only fun if you have a good opponent and haven't played the same levels over and over already.
22:05:50 <pikhq> alise: So, they'd frown on, say, hacking the Wii so you could have Super Mario World going?
22:08:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I don't own a Wii, or any Wii games.
22:08:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:10:00 <alise> Wow, there's a tex2mail.
22:10:02 <alise> pikhq: You'd hate that. :-)
22:10:12 <alise> Bit crappy, though:
22:10:13 <alise> ehird@ehird-desktop:~/research/2010-05$ perl tex2mail
22:10:14 <alise> $$zeta(s) = \sum_{n=1}^\infty \frac{1}{n^s}, \quad Re(s) > 1.$$
22:10:14 <alise> zeta(s) = > --, Re(s) > 1.
22:10:30 <alise> Other things it handles better:
22:10:32 <alise> ehird@ehird-desktop:~/research/2010-05$ perl tex2mail
22:10:32 <alise> $$\int x^m (\ln x)^n\; dx
22:10:32 <alise> = \frac{x^{m+1}}{m+1}
22:10:32 <alise> \cdot \sum_{i=0}^n (-1)^i \frac{(n)_i}{(m+1)^i} (\ln x)^{n-i}$$
22:10:35 <alise> ,- m n x \~~ n i i n-i
22:10:37 <alise> | x (ln x) dx = ---- . > (-1) ------ (ln x)
22:11:41 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Except *possibly* Mario 64 <-- almost worth it there
22:12:00 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's at least amusing most of the way.
22:12:39 <AnMaster> pikhq, you can't ride on yoshi though
22:12:57 <pikhq> If you could, it would *definitely* be worth it.
22:13:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, also that wet-dry land thing where you have to go into that town thingy is freaking annoying
22:13:59 <AnMaster> the one were you adjust water levels
22:14:01 <alise> Guys, I just realised something.
22:14:05 <alise> roff is actually... pretty good.
22:14:31 <alise> I mean the language itself, but let's just say groff.
22:14:39 <alise> eqn is also pretty okay for doing mathematics in roff.
22:14:48 <AnMaster> alise, it is pretty annoying IMO
22:14:54 <pikhq> Yes, the excuse for
22:15:00 <pikhq> UNIX being developed is not terrible.
22:15:20 <pikhq> (well; getting *funded* and developed)
22:15:50 <alise> I don't see anything abhorrent about that.
22:15:54 <alise> Sure, manpage roff is an abomination.
22:15:58 <alise> But -ms is... just fine...
22:16:11 <pikhq> AnMaster: UNIX was made to play a game. Then, AT&T wanted a typesetting system. So, they made one for UNIX and claimed the whole thing as the typesetting system.
22:16:13 <alise> The general paper/article writing command set.
22:16:13 <AnMaster> and man page roff is the only roff I know
22:16:20 <alise> AnMaster: Different macro sets.
22:16:28 <alise> Also, eqn's input format is actually more legible than TeX's:
22:16:32 <alise> sum from {k=1} to N {k sup 2}
22:16:37 <alise> AnMaster: Spacewars
22:16:57 <AnMaster> alise, hm... is that the one where you have two opponents=
22:18:33 <alise> Haha wow, nroff even handles EQN equations
22:18:44 <AnMaster> "The basic gameplay of Spacewar! involves two armed spaceships called "the needle" and "the wedge" attempting to shoot one another while maneuvering in the gravity well of a star. The ships fired missiles that were unaffected by gravity (due to a lack of processing time)"
22:18:54 <AnMaster> yes it is the one I was thinking about
22:22:58 * alise typesets the definition of the zeta function with eqn and groff
22:23:08 <alise> pikhq: You know... the HAKMEM authors had no excuse.
22:23:24 <alise> They had a perfectly cromulent typesetting system available to them -- they just didn't like Unix. :-)
22:24:15 <alise> \[*z](s) = sum from {n = 1} to inf { 1 over {n sup s} }
22:24:41 <alise> Can actually be simplified to:
22:24:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:24:47 <alise> \[*z](s) = sum from n=1 to inf {1 over n sup s}
22:25:03 <alise> \[*z](s) = sum n=1 to inf {1 over n sup s}
22:29:53 <alise> pikhq: Oh, and did I mention?
22:29:59 <alise> pikhq: EQN invented the $...$ notation.
22:30:16 <alise> Let $alpha sub i$ be the primary variable, and let $beta$ be zero. Then we can show that $x sub 1$ is $>=0$.
22:30:26 <alise> And it can even handle inline sums, etc.
22:30:33 <alise> This thing invented TeX before Knuth!
22:33:26 <AnMaster> alise, what about TeX line break algorithm?
22:33:32 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:33:44 <AnMaster> fun thing... fsck sda1 vs. fsck /dev/sda1
22:33:45 <alise> groff has good justification (it was used for lost of articles and such)
22:33:52 <alise> Not quite as mathematically perfect as TeX, but just fine.
22:33:55 <AnMaster> the second does what you expect
22:33:58 <alise> And roff is more modular:
22:34:03 <oerjan> Gregor: hackbot is missing
22:34:09 <alise> eqn is an entirely separate program to all the roffs.
22:34:16 <alise> It generates the relevant roff instructions.
22:35:19 <AnMaster> what if you don't include that
22:35:49 <AnMaster> alise, so why did it invent $$ then?
22:35:56 <AnMaster> was it just a common choice of letter?
22:35:58 <alise> Because that's included in the manual.
22:36:17 -!- calamari has joined.
22:36:49 <alise> Ha, it lets you use actual tabs to space out stuff.
22:37:26 -!- calamari has quit (Client Quit).
22:41:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:48:10 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:49:30 -!- tombom has joined.
22:51:57 -!- AnMaster has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net).
22:52:04 -!- Guest27685 has quit (Changing host).
22:52:04 -!- Guest27685 has joined.
22:52:12 -!- Guest27685 has changed nick to jcp.
22:57:12 <oerjan> <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No; someone who murders isn't a serial killer.
22:57:24 <oerjan> the series was abrupted cancelled after the first episode
22:59:56 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:59:59 -!- tombom_ has joined.
23:00:02 * oerjan ponders whether to include more context in his log quotes in the future. Nah.
23:01:39 <oerjan> <AnMaster> alise, but what do the russian think of it
23:01:48 <alise> http://filebin.ca/jfjfa/zeta.pdf A test of groff+eqn, and the code generating it: http://pastie.org/972803.txt?key=7lsbxeagajpofaixjsn5ya
23:02:03 <oerjan> russia has an extreme shortage of men, that may have something to do with it too
23:02:09 <alise> Easy? Yep... pretty easy.
23:02:25 <alise> And people say roff is all incomprehensible dots and backslashes.
23:02:55 <alise> oerjan: extreme? "Russia has always suffered from a shortage of men relative to the number of women (currently men make up only 44% of the total population)."
23:03:04 <alise> a shortage, but extreme?
23:05:27 <oerjan> !haskell (\(.)->('H':).('i':).(' ':).('r':).('o').('f':))(.)"f"
23:06:33 <oerjan> !haskell (\(.)->('H':).('i':).(' ':).('r':).('o':).('f':))(.)"f"
23:07:14 <oerjan> ok could need more backslashes
23:07:27 <pikhq> Lambdalambdalambda
23:12:32 <oerjan> <alise> No, it exists platonically.
23:12:44 <oerjan> nothing involving rule 34 can exist platonically, sheesh
23:28:40 <alise> http://zaidwaqi.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/mathinputpanel.png
23:28:49 <alise> Wow. The first useful Windows 7 feature is discovered.
23:29:26 <oerjan> 13:25:18 <alise> I never new q -> chu.
23:29:37 <oerjan> isn't that approximately what it is in pinyin?
23:30:32 <oerjan> e.g. the dynasty from which the western word "china" is derived is now spelled Qin
23:31:21 <augur> oerjan: q in pinyin is a ch-like sound
23:31:25 <augur> but pinyin also has ch
23:31:34 <oerjan> (the chinese themselves prefer the Han dynasty, since Qin was a book-burning despotism
23:31:41 <augur> they differ slightly in the shape and position of the tongue
23:33:21 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:39:50 <pikhq> oerjan: As do the rest of the CJK languages.
23:51:47 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:54:35 <augur> alise: that is rather useful!
23:54:44 <augur> (bit late but ...)
23:55:47 <Sgeo_> augur, I sometimes respond to things hours later
23:57:50 <alise> What's the most common font size used with LaTeX?
23:58:03 <alise> augur: yeah apparently you can use a laptop touchpad to input the maths
23:58:08 <alise> not sure how it'll do advancing though
23:58:12 <alise> but still: kick ass!
23:58:18 <alise> now put that on a tablet computer
23:58:20 <alise> and hook it up to a CAS
23:58:41 <alise> Funny. With roff people seem to use 10pt and 12pt, but not 11pt.
23:58:49 <augur> its probably a bit slower than typing tho
23:58:51 <alise> Of course with -ms you can set it easily:
23:58:57 <alise> augur: not for complex mathematical notation
23:59:01 <augur> typing with automatic math recognition, i mean
23:59:04 <alise> it requires mental translation
23:59:16 <augur> grapher has a nice interface for that
23:59:42 <augur> that equation is simply
23:59:55 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:59:57 -!- EgoBot has joined.
23:59:57 -!- HackEgo has joined.