00:01:12 <nooga> i described it few minutes ago
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00:02:15 <nooga> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.07.04 15:18:09
00:02:53 <nooga> it would show how memory looks in two ways
00:03:10 <nooga> one - 1d array of addressed cells
00:03:20 <nooga> and second - boxes with arrows
00:03:32 <AnMaster> nooga, and what if I pass you a void* ?
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00:03:47 <nooga> ah, details details ;f
00:04:04 <AnMaster> nooga, or what if I pass you a intptr_t
00:04:24 <AnMaster> that one can reasonably be expected to not be quite what it seems like
00:04:35 <AnMaster> nooga, oh also function pointers should be fun
00:04:57 <nooga> this would be for basic education
00:05:08 <nooga> they don't have a clue that function pointers exist :D
00:06:06 <nooga> i was talking about simple subset of C that has structures and pointers
00:06:16 <nooga> and some basic types
00:06:20 <nooga> to explain the idea
00:07:10 <AnMaster> (note: this is a bad idea in general, use unions and rely on a slightly more reliable non-standard conforming behaviour
00:07:34 <AnMaster> at least that way the alias analysis won't end up all confused
00:09:17 <AnMaster> nooga, C without all these kind of strange corners and hacks would be no fun at all
00:10:03 <nooga> if they get the general idea they are able to understand these hacks in the real C
00:11:26 <AnMaster> nooga, whiteboard. Try it. I think it worked on the other students
00:12:33 <nooga> but i would like to give them a toy so that they would be able to experiment at home
00:13:28 <AnMaster> nooga, also if they are using windows shit: every university seems to have MSDNAA
00:13:58 <AnMaster> heck I have MSDNAA through university
00:14:19 <nooga> but neither gcc nor msvc EXPLAIN what happens during the execution
00:15:03 <nooga> gdb is extremely confusing for newbies
00:15:14 <AnMaster> more like can be threatened to tell you
00:15:43 <AnMaster> nooga, iirc the msvc debugger was very graphical and such
00:16:00 <nooga> but it's not enough
00:16:08 <AnMaster> nooga, yeah MSVC doesn't do C99
00:18:41 <AnMaster> lvl 10 human true neutral fighter. Multiclassing with some class able to cast magic
00:21:47 <nooga> i played that few years ago
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00:22:25 <AnMaster> nooga, any hints on multiclassing?
00:23:32 <nooga> nah, i don't remember anything
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00:58:11 <nooga> http://pastie.org/1030623
01:00:15 <nooga> actually it was a first test
01:00:26 <nooga> of my ultimate stupidness machine
01:05:00 <nooga> no, actually it's fretty useful atm
01:08:48 <nooga> huge progress was made
01:11:41 <AnMaster> you know, a large percentage of figures in books, games, movies and so on, can be nicely put into one of the classical D&D alignments
01:11:56 <AnMaster> while very few "real-world" persons can
01:12:09 <AnMaster> nooga, alise: ever noticed that?
01:12:52 <AnMaster> alise, this means we are rather bad at inventing realistic stories
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01:13:21 <olsner> I think stories are unrealistic for a reason, yeah
01:13:51 <AnMaster> but alise is _definitely_ some chaotic alignment
01:14:35 <AnMaster> nooga, you... I couldn't put an alignment on
01:15:39 <AnMaster> personally I always liked playing true neutral in games where you can select that. Though that doesn't mean I am true neutral myself
01:15:44 <olsner> maybe he's ... not human?
01:16:14 <AnMaster> olsner, iirc non-sapient beings in D&D are true neutral?
01:16:50 <olsner> non-human != non-sapient ... but of course D&D includes non-human species anyways, like elves and stuff (right?)
01:17:15 <AnMaster> olsner, and they can have alignment afaik
01:18:02 <olsner> it is bedtime here too, but I refuse to sleep instead of watching doctor who
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01:21:47 <alise> nooga is chaotic good
01:21:50 <alise> AnMaster is boring preist
01:22:59 <alise> i think most people here are chaotic
01:23:42 <alise> ais523 is lawful good, but there's some chaotic in him too...
01:23:44 <olsner> I am not familiar with these alignments - what am I?
01:23:51 <alise> he's lawful good but not a goody-gooder
01:23:54 <alise> olsner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_%28Dungeons_&_Dragons%29
01:24:00 <alise> {lawful,neutral,chaotic} {good,neutral,evil}
01:24:10 <alise> lawful good = obvious
01:24:11 <pikhq> It must be said: lawful good != lawful stupid.
01:24:18 <alise> lawful neutral = gray hat
01:24:36 <alise> neutral good = um... this one doesn't make so much sense
01:24:48 <AnMaster> alise, so I'm true neutral then?
01:24:50 <alise> neutral evil = legally grey, morally black
01:25:01 <alise> chaotic good = oklopol
01:25:12 <alise> chaotic neutral = barbarian :P
01:25:19 <alise> chaotic evil = the joker
01:25:35 <AnMaster> alise, but you need examples for all
01:25:48 <alise> eh, good enough to explain :P
01:25:57 <AnMaster> alise, yes but I want an example for neutral evil
01:26:35 <AnMaster> olsner, and I can't classify you, don't know you well enough
01:26:39 <pikhq> Lawful good = Superman, Chaotic good = Batman.
01:26:43 <alise> neutral evil is, literally, someone who has a regular respect for the law... could steal if they had a really, really good reason to
01:26:49 <alise> but deep down they're evil
01:26:52 <alise> it's not a very realistic class
01:27:02 <alise> People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships.
01:27:03 <AnMaster> pikhq, chaotic good = robin hood
01:27:04 <alise> neutral is basically "normal person"
01:27:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, I think that one is even better
01:27:10 <pikhq> AnMaster: Another good example.
01:27:15 <alise> there aren't many actual altruists who would make sacrifices
01:27:18 <olsner> I think I'm neutral/lawful good
01:27:19 <alise> chaotic is a bad name, really
01:27:28 <alise> olsner: you probably aren't good
01:27:35 <alise> Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
01:27:35 <alise> Evil implies harming, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient or if it can be set up. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some malevolent deity or master.
01:27:35 <alise> People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships.
01:27:51 <alise> it's just that good is almost never found outside of fiction
01:27:54 <alise> the good side of neutral, yes
01:27:59 <alise> good? ais523 is the only example i've seen
01:28:02 <AnMaster> alise, I definitely feel like a true neutral a lot of the time
01:28:04 <alise> per those definitions
01:28:24 <alise> I'm definitely chaotic, I don't really care about the law much at all
01:28:27 <AnMaster> I agree ais is definitely lawful good
01:28:33 <alise> only what i consider moral
01:28:40 <olsner> right, maybe rather neutral than good
01:28:40 <AnMaster> alise, yes you are chaotic in every sense of the word
01:28:41 <alise> I'd like to be chaotic good, but I'm probably chaotic neutral
01:28:49 <AnMaster> alise, chaotic neutral *definitely*
01:28:56 <alise> you said chaotic good before :P
01:29:15 <alise> i dunno, batman may be closer to chaotic neutral
01:29:18 <alise> he can be pretty vicious
01:29:24 <AnMaster> alise, or as tv tropes put it: totally unpredictable lunatic
01:29:35 <SgeoN1> I'd like to be Chaotic Good, hut I'm more Lawful Neutral
01:29:36 <alise> also the adam west batman was ... not chaotic
01:29:53 <SgeoN1> Well, maybe "like to be" is the wrong phrase
01:29:55 <alise> AnMaster: I think I lean towards the good side, though
01:30:01 <alise> I don't ever try to hurt someone
01:30:04 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_%28TV_series%29
01:30:07 <alise> the thing that made batman famous
01:30:17 <alise> http://www.thedarkknight.matthewclose.co.uk/AdamwestBatman.jpg
01:30:36 <alise> Slereah highlights 'adam west'
01:30:57 <pikhq> alise: Sadly, "ham" is not an alignment.
01:31:04 <Slereah> I think about Batman all day long
01:31:12 <alise> Slereah: What about the night????
01:31:26 <AnMaster> alise, so what is your alignment?
01:31:34 <alise> wow, TeX syntax is very unsuited to keyword arguments
01:31:46 <alise> Slereah is ... hmm
01:32:00 <AnMaster> alise, oerjan is chaotic I think
01:32:00 <alise> Can't say for sure
01:32:06 <alise> Slereah doesn't seem chaotic, not really
01:32:13 <alise> he might be a dirty pirate but...
01:32:31 <alise> oerjan isn't chaotic, when has oerjan ever broken the law?
01:32:37 <alise> he's cackly, yes, but that's just irc :P
01:32:47 <alise> i'd call oerjan another true neutral
01:32:54 <alise> "In the Complete Scoundrel sourcebook Batman, Dick Tracy and Indiana Jones are cited as examples of lawful good characters."
01:32:59 <alise> clearly an adam west watcher
01:33:03 <Slereah> http://i26.tinypic.com/t7iujq.jpg
01:33:12 <AnMaster> alise, yet you said true neutral was boring. You never considered oerjan boring?
01:33:25 <alise> "Examples of Neutral Good characters include Zorro, and Spider-Man."
01:33:30 <alise> spider-man is less lawful than batman?
01:33:32 <alise> this page is an abomination
01:34:02 <Slereah> Batman is of every alignment
01:34:03 <AnMaster> <Slereah> http://i26.tinypic.com/t7iujq.jpg <- hah
01:35:06 <alise> moriarty is badass
01:35:42 <alise> "Who else would kick a man for eating ice cream?" XD
01:36:24 <alise> "Lara Croft, Lucy Westenra from Dracula and Han Solo in his early Star Wars appearance are neutral."
01:36:46 <AnMaster> I agree about Han Solo in the first half of the first movie
01:37:26 <AnMaster> alise, he is a mercenary basically. They tend to be neutral, possibly even true neutral
01:37:47 <alise> chaotic evil is awesome
01:38:02 <AnMaster> alise, too destructive for my taste
01:38:09 <alise> chaotic good is a bit rubbish, it's just antihero
01:38:12 <alise> and antihero is way too overdone
01:38:12 <AnMaster> alise, neutral evil however is awesome
01:38:17 <Slereah> Here, have this handy map : http://membres.multimania.fr/bewulf/Divers9/The_Planescape_Multiverse_by_zen79.jpg
01:38:19 <alise> AnMaster: yeah, but chaotic evil is the Joker
01:38:22 <alise> chaotic evil destroys the universe
01:38:28 <AnMaster> alise, chaotic good is hero as well. Robin Hood for example
01:39:02 <AnMaster> alise, I would say anti-hero is in some neutral
01:39:07 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7c/Detective-33-Bat.png "...Literally!"
01:41:47 <AnMaster> oh god, I found "dungeons and lolcats" when googling -_-
01:42:01 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/77/Batbed.png <-- not homoerotic whatsoever. Nope.
01:42:27 <AnMaster> Slereah, it isn't even very good
01:42:31 <Slereah> Every adoptive parent sleep with their orphans, doncha know?
01:44:17 <AnMaster> Slereah, IMO it is piss poor, but see http://splinteredportals.com/cat_alignment/ if you are really interested
01:44:56 <Slereah> Lolcats became pisspoor a long time ago.
01:45:15 <alise> It's not a lolcat, it's a LoLcat
01:45:25 <alise> http://splinteredportals.com/cat_alignment/5_true_neutral.jpg How is that true neutral at all?
01:47:18 * alise wonders what to add to leaden. Actual UI, perhaps?!?!
01:47:28 <alise> Indentation? Oh, the possibilities.
01:48:18 <alise> indent.py gets its own file because indentation logic is pretty damn complex.
01:48:39 <alise> The question is, how many lines before of context do you need to determine the next line's indentation...
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01:49:21 <AnMaster> this image was good though (not lolcats but still awesome): http://vampjac.com/lj/humor/gygax/multiclassing.jpg
01:49:37 <alise> man, that would have made lotr like 50 times better.
01:49:39 <olsner> alise: omg are you writing your editor in python?
01:50:26 <alise> olsner: is that a sin? I don't like Python, but I can't think of anything else that it'd be nice and easy to use gtk from and do stuff like this.
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01:50:52 <alise> AnMaster: "Fuck Mordor... I have a nuclear bomb and a large swath of open desert. You in?"
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01:51:49 <Slereah> AnMaster : Good guy, bad guy, I'm the one with a gun
01:53:21 <olsner> alise: if you don't like it, I would say that it is indeed might be a sin
01:53:53 <alise> olsner: Why did you say it?
01:54:22 <olsner> because I don't like python either
01:55:51 <alise> olsner: how would you write a short little program that uses gtk?
01:57:04 <olsner> good question... I have only used any substantial amounts of gtk from C
01:59:11 <alise> olsner: and, as you know, that is painful
01:59:42 <olsner> but won't that part be exactly as painful from python, with the added pain of python itself?
02:00:11 <AnMaster> alise, but python's GC is really wtf
02:01:07 <alise> makes c ten times more painful
02:01:12 <alise> olsner: no, because python actually has an object system
02:01:21 <alise> and pygtk hides gobject inside it
02:02:05 <olsner> hmm, okay, maybe python is ... appropriate for this case
02:02:39 <alise> it's not all that painful as long as you don't try and do anything clever :P
02:06:00 <alise> olsner: i basically treat it as a cleaned up pascal that calls namespaces "classes"
02:06:24 <alise> and has weird structure initialisation syntax
02:06:39 <olsner> aha! maybe that's just the problem... trying to be smart in python doesn't work, so you have to keep it down to python's level
02:06:48 <pikhq> Pretty danged weird initialisation syntax.
02:07:35 <alise> pikhq: yeah, every namespace contains one and only one structure
02:07:42 <alise> you initialise the structure by function-calling the namespace
02:07:55 <olsner> hmm... very much time for bed now, work starts in <7h
02:08:00 <alise> and then functions in the namespace that take the structure can be called with the syntax:
02:08:05 <pikhq> I really, really don't get why Python doesn't do TCO.
02:08:07 <alise> namespace.bar(foo)
02:08:17 <alise> olsner: basically you have to put yourself in guido's shoes
02:08:19 <alise> and it works perfectly
02:08:29 <alise> python is basically an ffi with control structures :P
02:08:54 <alise> in fact, i have only one if statement in my entire editor
02:09:07 <alise> quite an achievement
02:09:13 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Pretty danged weird initialisation syntax. <-- you mean the __init__ ?
02:09:21 <pikhq> AnMaster: ARGH ARGH ARGH
02:09:28 <olsner> yeah, python code usually ends up quite loopy
02:09:31 <pikhq> I hate Python's use of underscores.
02:09:50 <alise> AnMaster: if you treat classes as namespaces with one structure in them
02:09:57 <pikhq> It makes the C code in me feel like there's a lot of almost-guaranteed-to-break magic going on.
02:09:58 <alise> then the initialisation syntax makes absolutely no sense whatsoever :P
02:10:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, but fuck newlib headers then. I swear I saw a tripple-underscore somewhere there
02:10:08 <alise> pikhq: You have C code in you?
02:11:03 * alise writes a very simple python indentation function
02:11:32 * alise continues editing leaden in leaden
02:12:01 <olsner> ah, so it's already the editor equivalent of a self-hosting compiler
02:12:24 <alise> olsner: yeah, it has not a single ui element other than an editor window opened to a preset source file and a scrollbar
02:12:39 <alise> that editor (just a gtk sourceview) is set to auto-indent (dumbly; just repeating the last line's indentation), and syntax highlight
02:12:54 <alise> it automatically saves the file to disk on every keypress (this is a feature) and automatically reloads the file on any outside change
02:13:12 <alise> it has unlimited undo.
02:13:56 <olsner> but not yet VCS:ed undo?
02:14:06 <alise> olsner: the plan is that Ctrl+S is a vcs commit
02:14:15 <alise> and saving is completely automatic
02:14:28 <alise> rationale: i can never make myself use vcses, but saving is easy, so just make a vcs the save functionality
02:14:31 <alise> tada, versioned filesystem
02:14:43 <olsner> anyway, I shall finally go and sleep now
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02:23:33 <AnMaster> <alise> then the initialisation syntax makes absolutely no sense whatsoever :P <-- you mean the __init__ right?
02:23:45 <alise> if we treat "class Foo(object):"
02:23:48 <alise> as defining a namespace Foo
02:23:54 <alise> containing one unnamed structure
02:24:05 <alise> (which is how I code python because it lets you treat it as a strange, cleaned-up pascal with nice libraries)
02:24:09 <alise> (instead of a godawful language)
02:24:12 <alise> then Foo() is a really weird syntax
02:24:14 <AnMaster> I'm not sure I agree a class is a namespace. I thought python did modules as namespaces
02:24:17 <alise> new Foo.struct, yes
02:24:23 <alise> AnMaster: it's about how you think about it
02:24:29 <alise> if you treat python classes as /classes/, it's the worst OOP ever
02:24:40 <AnMaster> alise, namespaces don't tend to have a self pointer
02:24:44 <alise> if you treat them as namespaces that are also the only way to define structures, and the structure definition is somehow implicit
02:24:46 <alise> it all makes more sense
02:24:48 <alise> AnMaster: they don't
02:24:55 <alise> __init__ is just a special namespace method, given a newly-created structure
02:24:58 <alise> (often called "self")
02:25:01 <alise> it then sets up this structure
02:25:05 <alise> all the rest are just functions taking that structure
02:25:14 <alise> usually you call the structure parameter "self" but that's not required
02:25:18 <alise> there's also some weird sugar
02:25:24 <alise> structure.foo() is namespace_of_structure.foo(structure)
02:25:26 <alise> how weird is that?
02:25:29 <alise> (note: all of this is actually true)
02:25:40 <alise> (apart from literally being namespaces)
02:25:42 <AnMaster> alise, if you consider it, C++ actually do it something like that too
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02:25:53 <alise> well yes, but python has it explicit
02:26:02 <alise> which lets you just treat it as a really strange language where structures are implicit
02:26:02 <AnMaster> alise, yes that is an important difference
02:26:14 <alise> it actually works really well, using classes for namespaces
02:26:23 <alise> like, it's how you're supposed to do python, rather than actually separating concerns
02:28:00 <alise> i /think/ i just wrote a tab handler
02:28:06 <alise> File "leaden.py", line 66
02:28:07 <alise> if at start of line:
02:28:07 <alise> SyntaxError: invalid syntax
02:28:32 <AnMaster> alise, "at start of line" is only valid in "Plain English" I bet
02:31:06 <alise> Holy Fucking Shit, it WORKS!
02:32:59 <zzo38> I don't really like everything about Python, but I think the way that classes work is not too bad
02:34:00 <AnMaster> the way they work on the C side...
02:34:04 <zzo38> Here is a PNG file of the example Icochash file that I posted before: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_12/icochash.png
02:34:13 <AnMaster> alise, ever looked at python internals on the C side?
02:34:34 <alise> AnMaster: i know a bit about them
02:34:35 <AnMaster> zzo38, make it render with tex. will look way nicer
02:34:36 <zzo38> AnMaster: I certainly didn't. I only programmed some card games in Python, that's about it
02:34:49 <alise> AnMaster: render a living form with TeX?
02:34:52 <alise> presumably it's computerised
02:34:54 <alise> it looks like a webpage to me
02:35:00 <alise> rendered in some textual browser or perhaps vonkeror
02:35:02 <zzo38> AnMaster: I might make it render with TeX some day later. It would be nicer for sure
02:35:12 <AnMaster> alise, but it looks like a bitmap font
02:35:20 <alise> AnMaster: well i imagine zzo38 uses a bitmap font.
02:35:31 <alise> he does use windows after all, windowsers prior to vista tended to
02:35:34 <alise> at least at small sizes
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02:35:56 <zzo38> The picture I have is rendered using icochash_img using the default settings. It does support TTF and PostScript fonts as well.
02:36:15 <zzo38> Although I have Windows, I will later have Linux instead
02:36:45 <zzo38> AnMaster: No, but that is irrelevant. When I get a new computer I will put Linux.
02:37:03 <AnMaster> zzo38, you know about colinux though?
02:38:05 <zzo38> AnMaster: Yes I know some things about it
02:38:38 <zzo38> When I get new computer I will put Linux and write a Linux distribution.
02:39:13 <zzo38> AnMaster: No I can't dual boot I have server programs running on my computer
02:40:47 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, the bitmap font thing was really, really bad with Japanese...
02:40:59 <pikhq> Japanese looks eye-clawingly bad with bitmap fonts.
02:41:31 <alise> who wants to debug my editor, eh, eh!
02:41:56 <zzo38> Where is the codes?
02:42:01 <pikhq> http://www.wazu.jp/gallery/samples/MSMincho__Japanese.gif See that?
02:43:25 <zzo38> icochash_img just renders the completed forms as .png file, it won't edit the forms. To edit the data on the forms you need to edit the .chs file with a text editor.
02:43:58 <zzo38> Icochash has a similarity to Icoruma in that they both use one file for common functions and then separate files to render and format in different ways.
02:44:15 <alise> pikhq: You, you want to debug my text editor!
02:44:52 <alise> ...Wait, what the FUCK/
02:46:06 <alise> pikhq: Okay, I will employ you in happiness if you fix my indentation routines :P
02:46:14 <alise> They work, just... not very well.
02:46:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, so what did the old 8-bit Japanese games use?
02:47:01 <pikhq> AnMaster: English or *just katakana*.
02:47:24 <alise> katakana is what japanese uses to romanise
02:47:30 <alise> we romanise stuff and the like
02:47:34 <alise> and steal lonewords
02:47:35 <pikhq> Katakana is the syllabary used primarily for foreign words.
02:48:14 <pikhq> It's also used for emphasis, to note that you're writing out the on'yomi (Chinese reading) of some character, or to sound robotic.
02:48:31 <pikhq> The last part comes because old computers and video game systems only used katakana.
02:49:08 <pikhq> The reason for *this* is because it's the easiest to render on limited graphics.
02:49:48 <alise> ...Say, there's no way to keep state in CPP, right? Like, at all?
02:49:49 <pikhq> コレ ハ カタカナ デス。 カンタンニ ヨメル、 ネ？
02:49:55 <alise> Between macro invocations. Relying on C behaviour is accepted.
02:50:04 <alise> Specifically, I'm doing a coroutine/finite state machine thing.
02:50:09 <alise> So I need a duff's device thing.
02:50:11 <pikhq> alise: Absolutely none at all.
02:50:13 <alise> I want it so that you can write
02:50:22 <alise> state++; return x; case (LAST_CASE_WE_MADE)+1:
02:50:32 <alise> pikhq: Then how does that tiny little "threads" library do it?
02:50:40 <zzo38> There are programs that do somewhat similar things as Icochash, such as PCGEN, but other programs have bad designs in my opinion, also Icochash is not quite the same thing, it is a bit different
02:51:16 <pikhq> alise: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/coroutines.html
02:51:16 <alise> pikhq: Can you say "case var:"?
02:51:21 <alise> pikhq: I know, but that has an extra param.
02:51:33 <alise> pikhq: You can say "case var:", can't you? But it'll be the value of var at the start of the switch, right?
02:51:55 <pikhq> No, it doesn't have an extra param.
02:52:00 <alise> #define crReturn(i,x) do { state=i; return x; case i:; } while (0)
02:52:08 <pikhq> Look further down.
02:52:14 <pikhq> It cheats by using the __LINE__ macro.
02:52:35 <alise> What about that thing by the contiki guy?
02:52:39 <alise> cheater99: Good as in playing them?
02:52:49 <alise> cheater99: No, I'm shit. But I enjoy it. Why?
02:52:59 <pikhq> It works so long as you don't stick multiple crReturns on a line.
02:53:07 <cheater99> i dare you to complete this one: http://www.indiegames.com/features/index.php?c=ex&y=2009&gid=20
02:53:07 <pikhq> alise: Oh, that stuff?
02:53:13 <alise> pikhq: Isn't there a __CHAR__?
02:53:21 <alise> Also, can you find that thread impl? I've been unable to.
02:54:11 <pikhq> http://www.sics.se/~adam/pt/
02:54:21 <pikhq> Protothreads, as used in Contiki
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02:56:47 <alise> #define LC_SET(s) s = __LINE__; case __LINE__:
02:56:58 <alise> Oh, you can use labels as values for it too.
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02:57:38 <alise> still uses __LINE__, though
02:58:13 <alise> http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/cpp/Standard-Predefined-Macros.html
02:58:15 <alise> Nothing more fine-grained.
02:59:29 <alise> #define fsm static int _s=0;switch(s){case 0:
02:59:29 <alise> #define yield(x) do{state=__LINE__;return(x);case __LINE__:}while(0)
03:02:21 <zzo38> O, so that is how it works.
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03:06:44 <zzo38> Now it means it doesn't work if you put yield(x) twice in one line
03:11:19 <alise> pikhq: So, I just implemented coroutine-threads in C.
03:13:38 * Sgeo decides that IRCing on the go may not be that easy
03:14:07 <Sgeo> Which was pretty much my main reason for disparaging iOS4. Oh, actually, let me ask someone with experience: alise, can you multitask an IRC client with iOS4?
03:14:34 <alise> I haven't used iOS; still on iPhone OS 3. I thought iOS could multitask anything?
03:14:46 <alise> What with its high-falutin' high-falutinness.
03:15:03 <Sgeo> alise, I thought there were 7 multitask APIs or something?
03:15:18 <alise> My answer: probably.
03:15:22 <alise> My other answer: don't buy an iPhone.
03:15:40 <Sgeo> Whenever I mention AT&T, people ask why I didn't just get an iPhone
03:15:43 <pikhq> alise: Low-level tricks do help with that, yeah.
03:16:11 <alise> pikhq: Yeah -- low level tricks like static variables and switch.
03:16:21 <alise> Sgeo: Well, they're partially right, but not for the reason of an iPhone.
03:16:25 <alise> The reason is that AT&T is shit.
03:16:30 <alise> Also, stop fucking caring what other people think already.
03:16:52 <Sgeo> Which is more likely: That, over time, Android gets an iPhone level of polish, or, that over time, Apple eases up on its nuttiness?
03:17:01 <Sgeo> alise, I think I care what you think a bit too much
03:17:06 <alise> Apple have been getting more nutty, not less.
03:17:11 <alise> Sgeo: You care what others think, too.
03:17:20 <alise> At least I try and provide justification to believe what I say :P
03:21:19 <alise> http://www.acooke.org/lepl/ ~ from our favourite andrew cooke in the universe
03:21:43 * Sgeo fantasizes about Android with Apple-like polish
03:21:53 <alise> Sgeo: there are cracks in the polish.
03:21:58 <alise> believe me. i've used it since 2007.
03:22:05 <alise> that's three years of using it.
03:22:26 <alise> there is a reason i've gone from a devoted apple user to an arch linux user
03:22:42 <alise> and it's that one, the polish is mostly superficial: sure, it's pretty and the animations glide, but the user interfaces do not fit together
03:22:57 <alise> apple used to do UI design; now they do graphic design, and just avoid even creating a UI
03:23:00 <pikhq> alise: C switch is a low-level trick. :)
03:23:07 <alise> yes, Sgeo, when pressing around it will all fade and slide
03:23:14 <alise> but it won't be smooth to use, it won't be polished to operate
03:24:04 <Sgeo> That's pretty much how I feel about Android's BACK button
03:24:15 <alise> Sgeo: the iPhone doesn't have a back button.
03:24:32 <Sgeo> No back button may be better than an inconsistant one
03:24:40 <alise> so don't press it.
03:25:00 <alise> Believe me, the iPhone may be prettier, but the user experience is NOT as polished as you think: and it certainly isn't good enough to support the tyranny.
03:25:19 <alise> Android is flawed, but so is the iPhone; Android wins by virtue of the iPhone being run by a megalomaniacal dictator.
03:26:24 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that my reasons for using Windows may be similar to a reason to get the iPhone
03:26:39 <Sgeo> Except that, in the case of Windows, there were already specific programs that I wanted to run, that put me over the edge
03:26:45 <Sgeo> With the iPhone, no such thing
03:27:49 * Sgeo ponders py2exe
03:28:16 <Sgeo> "If py2exe fixes a broken program, then that's probably a bug in py2exe that needs to be fixed!"
03:28:33 <Sgeo> alise, you can't seriously have off tomorrow, can you?
03:28:48 <alise> Sgeo: No; why would you think that?
03:28:56 <Sgeo> alise, you're still up.
03:30:38 <Sgeo> Ah, crud, py2exe wants to require users to have a dll
03:30:53 <alise> I'll go to bed soon, I swear.
03:38:49 <alise> what the fuck is that.
03:40:15 <alise> i need to go to bed, stop talking
03:59:41 <cheater99> alise: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mysql-dfsg-5.1/+bug/451801
03:59:51 <cheater99> it seems glasgow isn't the only thing that canonic fucked up
03:59:57 <alise> SHUT THE FUCK UP I HAVE TO BE UP AT 9:30
04:02:57 <cheater99> why are you not in bed then, little thing?
04:03:36 * Sgeo slaps cheater99
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04:53:40 <zzo38> Why don't you play this game instead? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/ASCMZXTO/ASCMZXTO.ZIP
04:54:35 <zzo38> * Don't just do everything without thinking about it at first, or else you will get stuck
04:55:07 <AnMaster> zzo38, what does one play it with on x86_64 linux
04:55:26 <AnMaster> zzo38, also did you know linux has a 91% market share?
04:55:32 <zzo38> AnMaster: If you are willing to compile the source yourself: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/mzx1/mzx_extended/megazeux_src.zip
04:56:45 <zzo38> If you want compiled binaries: http://vault.digitalmzx.net/show.php?id=1675 (not recomended because of various bugs and missing features)
04:56:57 <zzo38> Genre is just multiple things. It is not a arcade-style game
04:57:07 <AnMaster> zzo38, puzzle? that is out too
04:57:13 <AnMaster> about all I could like is RPG atm
04:57:42 <zzo38> It does have some puzzles. But it does not consist entirely of puzzles
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05:45:40 <zzo38> You cannot win this game without *all* of these hints:
05:45:50 <zzo38> * Save the game state often, and in multiple files.
05:45:57 <zzo38> * Don't just do everything without thinking about it at first, or else you will get stuck
05:46:16 <zzo38> * Don't just shoot everything and everyone, or else you will run out of ammunition and you won't get a very good score
05:47:16 <zzo38> * Pay attention to the game, and perhaps look at the source code for MegaZeux for help about what some objects means?
05:47:53 <zzo38> * Use the money effectively.
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05:48:29 <zzo38> * The goal is to find the purple keys
05:49:18 <zzo38> * Don't run into everything that you can get hurt, or else you will run out of health points
05:50:26 <zzo38> * Some of the puzzles are confusing so please make sure you know what something means!
05:51:14 <zzo38> * At the end of the game you will find BIG_MONSTER
05:51:53 <zzo38> And, then, there is also a sequel to this game but I am not finished making the sequel game yet.
06:09:22 <zzo38> Which game do you prefer, the first one, or the sequel game?
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11:56:41 <augur> i just had the taste of butane in my mouth
11:59:41 <Ilari> Butane? Isn't that gas in room temperature?
12:00:00 <augur> it was a misinterpretation
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14:14:41 <AnMaster> augur, how do you even know the taste of butane?
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14:32:54 <augur> AnMaster: what most people call taste is really just smell.
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15:35:34 <oklopol> smell doesn't affect taste in any way
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16:52:11 <AnMaster> <augur> AnMaster: what most people call taste is really just smell. <-- oh so you meant smell then
16:59:03 <oklopol> the world will never tire of ti
17:02:33 <zzo38> Do you like my game?
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17:33:45 <zzo38> Do you like my game? Did you try this game? (See previous log for hints)
17:40:54 <cheater99> is alise holed up for the week again
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17:45:16 <oerjan> cheater99: yes, like the 16 billion previous times you asked
17:45:45 <oerjan> (he sometimes comes on in the evening as ehirdiphone, though)
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17:46:49 <AnMaster> oerjan, what is your alignment?
17:47:04 * oerjan notices he's grumpy and should eat something
17:47:56 <Ilari> You can't instantiate "something" with anything. :->
17:47:57 <oerjan> i noticed y'all seemed to conjecture true neutral...
17:48:55 <Ilari> "something" just means "there is such thing as". Randomly chosen thing probably does not qualify.
17:49:01 <oerjan> i figure it's either that or neutral good.
17:50:44 <cheater99> oerjan: i need to be on the edge with that info
17:50:56 <oerjan> Ilari: you fail at grammar forever
17:50:58 <cheater99> oerjan: can you create an rss feed for that please.
17:51:28 <Ilari> oerjan: Yes, I do. :-)
17:52:59 <cheater99> nah i'm just playin'. you seem a bit uppity so i'm pulling your leg.
17:53:04 <oerjan> i don't know more about alise than anyone else here who's paying attention.
17:53:18 <oerjan> cheater99: i _said_ i was grumpy and needed to eat.
17:57:13 <Ilari> There should be esolang with large collection of operators with seemingly no connection. Also lot of them used together should be required to reach TC.
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18:04:20 <oklopol> i've had that idea a million times
18:04:38 <oklopol> and there's still suffering in the world
18:06:27 <oerjan> well if that's what causes the suffering in the world, i suggest you stop.
18:08:14 <oklopol> i never looked at it that way
18:14:54 <oklopol> a computer-generated set of millions of different commands
18:17:24 <oerjan> well the hard part i would think is making all necessary for TC-ness without them being obviously connected
18:18:34 <oklopol> yes, if you want to do it well
18:18:58 <oklopol> i was more interested in the part where the spec is multiple gigabytes
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18:19:32 <oklopol> you know me, i don't care what's inside as long as it's really big
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18:22:10 <Ilari> Good way would be to have multiple flags that affect instructions in odd ways (and have strange interactions).
18:23:18 <oerjan> --use-underlying-field "F_16"
18:23:50 <oerjan> the finite field with 16 elements
18:24:26 <Ilari> That's trace 2 field... Too ordinary. :-)
18:24:42 <oerjan> trace? you mean characteristic?
18:25:02 <Ilari> Well, what was it called... :-/
18:28:25 <oerjan> maybe it should be --use-underlying-ring instead.
18:33:27 <Ilari> Maybe field size of 3 486 784 401 would be better?
18:36:56 <oerjan> !haskell logBase 3 3486784401
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18:41:01 <oklopol> what's the trace of a field?
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18:41:20 <Ilari> Probably means characteristic...
18:41:33 <oklopol> doubt that, maybe i'll check
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18:42:51 <oklopol> the trace of something is the sum of its conjugates
18:43:54 <oklopol> (i actually did remember it was that but minds are not to be trusted)
18:44:16 * oerjan is familiar with a completely different meaning of the term
18:44:42 <oerjan> (the trace of a square matrix is the sum of its diagonal entries)
18:46:40 <oerjan> (a major property of this trace is that tr(AB) = tr(BA))
18:48:26 <oerjan> also the sum of conjugates in F_16 would not be called 2 given that 2 = 0 in that field
18:50:53 <Ilari> 3 because 2 is too ordinary and 5 (or greater) is too simple.
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18:57:03 <AnMaster> oerjan, I first went "airfield?" at that. Since F-16 = aircraft to me.
19:01:31 <oklopol> lol shouldn't have mentioned my games, i'm hooked on bounca again
19:02:12 <oklopol> oerjan: i thought the trace of an element of a finite field is actually the trace of some matrix
19:02:56 <oklopol> maybe the guy who told me this was confusing the meanings
19:06:05 <oklopol> anyone wanna add other kinds of polygons to bounca? i hate programming as you know.
19:07:21 <DH____> not the right irc network if that's the case...
19:09:41 <oklopol> nono i hate programming but i love programmers
19:12:51 <oklopol> hehe, the ball randomly jumps like 10cm from the finish in 16.9 sec, takes like 40 seconds if you actually try to manouver there
19:12:56 <oklopol> i should probably make a new level
19:36:33 <oklopol> my games are so awesome i wish someone else had made them so i wouldn't feel so bad for advertising them.
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22:50:50 <oklopol> at least i finally found a substitution greeting
22:50:58 <oklopol> been trying to find one since our conversation
22:52:28 <oklopol> hard to do this well, because somehow a function has to become a question
22:57:12 * oerjan wonders what oklopol is babbling about. also, *munch*
22:57:40 * pikhq has been trying to write a cksum program for kicks.
22:57:43 <AnMaster> <oklopol> hard to do this well, because somehow a function has to become a question <-- to do what well?
22:57:51 <pikhq> Minor problem: it seems to be borken in ways I cannot tell.
22:57:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, no need. the heirloom one compiles for me on microcosm
22:58:05 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/CaHQ
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22:58:15 <pikhq> crc_table.h generated with http://sprunge.us/AZXC
22:58:19 <oerjan> !swedish This program does not work.
22:58:20 <pikhq> AnMaster: Don't care.
22:58:20 <EgoBot> Thees prugrem dues nut vurk. Bork Bork Bork!
22:58:25 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, #irp was slashdotted
22:58:37 <oklopol> "<oklopol> really old though" <<< inf as a response to sup is really old
22:58:46 <pikhq> I want to write a reasonable cksum program; I don't care that Heirloom has one.
22:58:51 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, as in the end results are about the same
22:58:59 <AnMaster> good thing we have a separate channel for it
22:59:00 <oklopol> "<oklopol> at least i finally found a substitution greeting" <<< since we talked about... or was that the only unclear thing?
22:59:35 <oklopol> today i was told i talk too fast
22:59:44 * oerjan has forgotten what we talked about
22:59:48 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: I had to go into ultra-asshole mode when #esoteric IRP was redditted
23:00:05 <pikhq> Hmm. My crc_table appears to differ from what's in the Heirloom cksum binary.
23:00:06 <oklopol> well i would've changed about into something else
23:00:12 <oklopol> if i'd finished the sentence
23:00:13 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, like, worse than usual?
23:00:24 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: IMO heirloom's flaw is caring way too much about history.
23:00:36 <oerjan> cheater99: THIS IS AN RSS MESSAGE: ehirdiphone HAS BEEN OBSERVED
23:00:54 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: I said "ultra". Anyway, I've mellowed.
23:01:20 <pikhq> AnMaster: I've also been comparing against Busybox's cksum. It *appears* to be the same generating function.
23:01:27 <pikhq> Give or take stylistic differences.
23:01:44 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: I even expressed the opinion that everyone edits differently and you just have to find the editor that works for you, yesterday.
23:01:45 <oerjan> ehirdiphone: um you're trying to avoid him?
23:01:58 <pikhq> (Busybox doesn't have a statically-created crc_table)
23:02:12 <oklopol> who isn't a pedo these days
23:02:28 <pikhq> Anyways: thoughts?
23:02:33 <oerjan> ehirdiphone: it's just i was joking about how he keeps asking about you, earlier
23:03:07 <oklopol> ehirdiphone: this is so cool, now we can have a double-date with our gay lovers
23:03:14 <oerjan> (and he requested an rss feed :D)
23:03:17 <oklopol> assuming augur still has a thing for me
23:03:28 <ehirdiphone> oerjan: he's concerned my beautiful prepubescent body of spotlessness, hairlessness and innocence will be damaged
23:04:18 <ehirdiphone> oklopol: we could just both date augur, that would be vastly preferable to being in a 1,000 km^2 radius of cheater99
23:05:28 <ehirdiphone> oklopol: I meant if we both dated augur XD
23:05:43 <oklopol> i guess i don't know the expression
23:07:55 <pikhq> ... Wait a sec that table's kinda constant.
23:08:02 <pikhq> Screw it I can just copy the damned thing.
23:08:58 <cheater99> alise is angry because she knows she wants me subconsciously
23:11:16 <oerjan> well if you did you wouldn't know it, it's subconscious duh
23:11:22 -!- ehirdiphone has changed nick to aliseiphone.
23:11:37 <Gregor> Pronounced: Alih-say-phone
23:11:46 <coppro> aliseiphone: Sometimes you change it, sometimes you didn't. I just didn't know if you'd noticed
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23:12:47 <aliseiphone> v. the act of gaining a vagina through metaphysical IRC
23:13:27 <Gregor> Metaphysical: Even more meta than physical
23:13:27 <ais523> "ehird" isn't a particularly /male/ name
23:13:34 <oerjan> aliseiphone: and what did the physical say?
23:13:46 <aliseiphone> (*cough* I never met a physical I didn't like.)
23:15:20 <aliseiphone> Someone offer to try leaden out when it's ready or I'll die. Of shame.
23:16:11 <Sgeo> What's leaden?
23:16:18 <Sgeo> Also, are you turning into me?
23:16:25 <pikhq> Now to make the cksum mostly-POSIX.
23:16:39 <pikhq> This consists of: adding support for command line arguments.
23:18:05 <aliseiphone> Sgeo: An awesome editor I'm writing; and no.
23:19:01 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Few people.
23:19:30 <pikhq> And now I'm going "wait a sec, the code for every other implementation of this I could find sucks".
23:19:32 <aliseiphone> Someone should totally ask me to explain leaden's design. Cough. :P
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23:24:29 <Sgeo> aliseiphone, does your on-screen keyboard ever freeze up?
23:25:25 <aliseiphone> Sometimes I get a ghost one on top rendering the UI useless.
23:25:37 <aliseiphone> And stop using me to justify buying an iPhone.
23:25:49 <aliseiphone> No more obvious questions of such a nature.
23:26:06 <Sgeo> I never bought an iPhone
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23:29:35 <AnMaster> strange news: they found an armed handgrenade at a recycling station in Stockholm this evening
23:29:46 <ais523> that seems pretty random
23:30:06 <AnMaster> ais523, you mean, placing a hand grenade there being random or me mentioning it?
23:30:11 <AnMaster> ais523, the sprint was still in
23:30:18 -!- nooga has joined.
23:30:46 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/JMgb
23:30:57 <Gregor> "Anyway, all these computers and digital gadgets are no good. They just fill your head with numbers, and that can't be good for you." -- The "artist" formerly known as "the artist formerly known as Prince"
23:31:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, http://www.dn.se/sthlm/handgranat-hittad-gator-avsparrade-1.1133422
23:31:57 <pikhq> ... GAH WHY IS INDENT=2?
23:32:19 <AnMaster> they messed up the date there ye
23:35:32 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/SVRa
23:35:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, you want that table static const
23:36:00 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, yes I do.
23:36:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, otherwise it can't be shared between different running instances
23:36:48 <AnMaster> Gregor, is that what he is now known as?
23:40:07 <pikhq> AnMaster: This is the only implementation of cksum I know of that uses stdio.
23:40:19 <pikhq> Erm. Uses stdio *sanely*.
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23:40:35 <pikhq> Each and every other one goes through read or fread for not-much-good-reason.
23:41:02 <pikhq> Granted, they are absurdly faster, but eh.
23:41:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, what does your one use? no browser open atm
23:41:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, if it uses fgets() you fail at handling \0
23:41:43 <ais523> pikhq: what about stdio_unlocked? or do you consider that insane?
23:41:52 <pikhq> ais523: AAAGHNONONO
23:42:12 <pikhq> AnMaster: Of course you would.
23:42:22 <AnMaster> if you hit a char device or such
23:42:28 <Sgeo> Are there any nice compiled imperative languages out there with standard libraries similar to Python's
23:42:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, what do you mean with that? ;P
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23:43:15 <pikhq> mmap is pretty retarded on a single iteration through a file.
23:43:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, depends. It does IO rather efficiently still
23:43:48 <pikhq> It ends up being comparable to, oh, *loading the entire file into memory*.
23:43:58 <pikhq> Even though you don't need much more than a buffer.
23:44:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, linux only loads a few pages ahead of you
23:44:28 <AnMaster> if you mark it with posix_madvice
23:44:41 <pikhq> Yes... It unmaps old pages *when it would swap stuff out*.
23:45:04 <pikhq> I'm not in favor of using more memory for hardly any benefit.
23:45:38 <AnMaster> posix_madvise() with POSIX_MADV_SEQUENTIAL
23:46:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, anyway I would probably use fread()
23:47:39 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's fast enough as is, and I, personally, am in favor of clarity over speed.
23:48:43 * AnMaster inserts a poisx_fadvise in pikhq's code
23:48:44 <cheater99> madvise sounds like something you shouldn't listen to.
23:48:58 <cheater99> it sounds like the kind of advice that homeless people always have for you.
23:50:22 <pikhq> What benefit does posix_fadvise get you?
23:51:54 <pikhq> AnMaster: *MEASUREMENTS*.
23:51:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, it increases readahead window if you want it
23:52:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, in cksum? probably not much :P
23:52:13 <AnMaster> but it is fun to poke fun at you
23:52:41 <pikhq> Though I am tempted to check the benefits done by fread.
23:54:22 <AnMaster> pikhq, you could use non-blocking reads too, so you can compute stuff while waiting for the DMA buffer to fill
23:54:48 <pikhq> That way leads to Coreutils.
23:55:58 <AnMaster> POSIX_FADV_WILLNEED initiates a nonblocking read of the specified region into the page cache. The amount of data read may be decreased by the kernel depending
23:55:58 <AnMaster> on virtual memory load. (A few megabytes will usually be fully satisfied, and more is rarely useful.)
23:56:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, of course just letting kernel do it's usual readahead is probably enough
23:57:29 <AnMaster> pikhq, this is #esoteric. There is no reason whatsoever to _not_ contemplate this
23:58:25 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, how would you write it
23:58:27 <aliseiphone> As far as coreutils go I'm a minimalism nazi. :P
23:58:42 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Something much more like his original paste.
23:59:18 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Bloated? I presume you mean "it uses libc", right?
23:59:37 <Sgeo> I feel sinful. I gave money to M. Night Shyamalan.
23:59:41 <AnMaster> how secure is login with physical unit to generate a response code?
23:59:48 <pikhq> aliseiphone: How so?