00:00:04 <pikhq> Aside from the absurd error checking...
00:00:15 <pikhq> (mmm, correctness)
00:00:45 <coppro> I feel weird. I found a practical use for BF
00:01:15 <Sgeo> "I want to learn C#" "Go to this site, it's how I learned" "But you already had some programming experience"
00:01:15 <Sgeo> I just suggested Python or C
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00:01:32 <coppro> For "encrypting" a file - not to actually protect the data, but just discourage casual observers. Run the following program, which interestingly enough has each symbol exactly once: +[>,-.<]
00:01:48 <coppro> run it again with s/-/+/ to un"encrypt" it
00:02:19 <coppro> and the BF program is shorter than the equivalent in nearly every other language
00:02:30 -!- aliseiphone has joined.
00:02:32 <aliseiphone> The current code is short but doesn't clearly express the fundamental idea "compute a CRC32 checksum". Remember, commands are the functions of the Unix OS.
00:02:49 <coppro> I forgot how BF behaves when it runs out of input
00:03:15 <coppro> hmm... off-by-one error
00:03:51 <coppro> aliseiphone: what a fantastic phone i must buy one now
00:03:58 <pikhq> "Look at your..." ?
00:04:34 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Look at your original code. That expressed your intent incredibly clearly. Strip useless options. Get rid of the, yes, absurd error checking.
00:04:37 <aliseiphone> The current code is short but doesn't clearly express the fundamental idea "compute a CRC32 checksum". Remember, commands are the functions of the Unix OS.
00:05:10 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Okay, so screw the error checking that I added on a bizarre whim.
00:05:29 <Sgeo> aliseiphone tends to be anti-feature though (j/k)
00:05:37 <pikhq> I think I can keep the fopen error checking.
00:05:38 <aliseiphone> And functions shouldn't have unneccessary cruft. When writing functions, how many flags do they have?
00:06:07 <aliseiphone> You nest (pipe) functions (commands) instead.
00:06:20 <pikhq> aliseiphone: POSIX requires the argument.
00:06:28 <aliseiphone> So, do try and remove all flags that significantly complicate your code.
00:06:44 <aliseiphone> pikhq: POSIX compliance is an amusing fiction.
00:06:55 <pikhq> And almost all UNIXes implement that.
00:07:28 <aliseiphone> Separate the code common to the arguments. Say into a function.
00:07:56 <aliseiphone> "if(flag)" in actually-computing code is lame. :P
00:08:17 <AnMaster> <aliseiphone> pikhq: Look at your original code. That expressed your intent incredibly clearly. Strip useless options. Get rid of the, yes, absurd error checking.
00:08:36 <AnMaster> correctness is less important than simplicity?
00:08:55 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Also, I do wonder if the octets blab might better belong in the BUGS section of cksum.1.
00:09:19 <pikhq> aliseiphone: It probably does.
00:10:08 <aliseiphone> It didn't work properly, was one minor flaw.
00:10:45 <aliseiphone> I like the idea of a truly correct C program. Ha!
00:11:01 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, that would be awesome. But I suggest using haskell or such for that
00:11:23 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Also, I suggest removing the libc dependency and rewriting it in PDP-11 assembly.
00:11:36 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: a truly correct haskell program???
00:12:10 <pikhq> Also, this is coming out much more nicely.
00:12:18 <pikhq> Thanks for the sanity check, aliseiphone.
00:12:41 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Just call me "Ultimate Genius, Lord Over Everything".
00:13:17 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/ZWTV
00:14:11 <pikhq> Doesn't compile though XD
00:14:30 <pikhq> s/else {/} else {/
00:15:06 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, yes, hello world in haskell, ought to be truly correct quite easily
00:15:18 <AnMaster> if you meant non-trivial then say so
00:16:07 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Additional, nitpicking suggestions: Put the CRC function first; the UI is cruft, not the important bit; try and reduce the nesting of the UI logic; and use "!strcmp" rather than "strcmp(...) == 0". But these are minutiae; the code is great.
00:16:37 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Other than the bugs
00:16:44 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Have you ever considered being less of a pedant in informal conversation? It's a nice social lubricant.
00:18:33 <aliseiphone> One day I must figure out how to write a truly elegant ls(1). It has so many interacting flags, but separating these into programs seems near-impossible!
00:18:57 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, you are officially being an idiot or a troll now
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00:20:44 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Oh? And which line made you decide this?
00:20:51 <AnMaster> <aliseiphone> One day I must figure out how to write a truly elegant ls(1). It has so many interacting flags, but separating these into programs seems near-impossible!
00:21:29 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, and ls without colour I won't use. I find the coloured output very very useful
00:21:59 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Oh, how I wish that I could return a tuple in C.
00:22:00 <aliseiphone> You are free to note that I can write ls(1) perfectly well, that a version with limited flags is very easy to make truly elegant, and that I have a very stringent definition of "trule elegant".
00:22:38 <pikhq> Sorry, return one *and pattern match*.
00:22:50 <aliseiphone> Furthermore, I don't, never have, and never will give a damn about whether you will use my coreutils or not. Especially as I know you won't from the get-go.
00:23:05 <oerjan> patterns are no match for C
00:23:17 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/ZVMh
00:23:37 <oerjan> gotta keep you on your toes
00:23:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, that's the original one aliseiphone hated?
00:24:16 <pikhq> Lemme get the right thing in the pastebuffer.
00:24:20 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/GGWP
00:24:33 <oerjan> aliseiphone: inte omöjligt
00:24:49 <AnMaster> oerjan, instämmer med föregående Norske talare
00:24:56 <aliseiphone> pikhq: You have crc's prototype right before its definition.
00:25:08 <pikhq> aliseiphone: ... Yearghright.
00:25:19 <nooga> oerjan: my bro is in norway and he's a f*#* genius if it comes to natural langs
00:25:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, and put static on the next one
00:26:37 <nooga> he spent 3 weeks there and he actually speaks simple norwegian
00:27:00 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, an ipad would be equally hard
00:27:06 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, also put a compiler on n900
00:27:34 <aliseiphone> knock on door, press button on ipad, rest on floor, hidden
00:27:36 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, _proper_ smartphones can run compilers
00:27:42 <nooga> Bartosz Michał Gasperowicz FFFFFFFFFFFFAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!! Lurt igjen! :D
00:28:19 <nooga> oerjan: what does this mean?
00:28:20 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Keyboard. Screen real estate. Processing power.
00:28:39 <aliseiphone> 500mhz arm + small screen + touchscreen keyboard = no
00:28:55 <oerjan> nooga: Bartosz Micha? Gasperowicz DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!! Fooled again! :D
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00:29:23 <nooga> because he works for a guy that can't express feelings, he just passes information
00:29:39 <nooga> and says somethin and then does something different
00:29:47 <nooga> he's in a village 'near' Floro
00:30:21 <oerjan> there was unicode? oh well.
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03:14:13 <AnMaster> how long has clog been missing
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04:34:00 * pikhq would like to demonstrate how you do a Makefile, for everyone that makes it too complex.
04:34:02 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/IEXi
04:44:49 <cheater99> http://failblog.org/2010/07/05/epic-fail-photos-makeup-fail/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+failblog+(The+FAIL+Blog+-+Fail+Pictures+%26+Videos+at+Failblog.ORG)&utm_content=FaceBook
04:59:24 * pikhq is a-doing a coreutils
05:08:56 <AnMaster> <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/IEXi <-- I would add the .PHONY line, but otherwise I agree
05:09:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, also I would, if I had more programs, add PROGRAMS = foo bar quux
05:10:24 <AnMaster> that way there is less duplication
05:10:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, but yes I agree with the general idea
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05:11:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, also how would you make one target link -lm there
05:12:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, I never figured out a clean way
05:12:06 <AnMaster> that is, with just implicit targets
05:18:56 <pikhq> AnMaster: Uh, GNU make only, but there's a way to do per-target variables.
05:19:30 <pikhq> target: LDFLAGS += -lm
05:21:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah, well that puts it BEFORE the files iirc
05:21:45 <AnMaster> which break with -Wl,--as-needed
05:22:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, which might be an issue
05:23:21 <pikhq> LDLIBS is what you want.
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05:26:01 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/BgXe It's 100% POSIX compliant cat!
05:26:17 <pikhq> (thank God they removed all the other options!)
05:27:55 <pikhq> It worries me greatly that most implementations of cat are actually complex.
05:28:12 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's fucking CAT
05:28:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes I want to concatenate a dual-side dual-layer dvd image split on 1.44 MB floppies! ;P
05:29:09 <pikhq> ... "1.44 MB floppies".
05:29:22 <pikhq> No, that needs a cat that operates faster than the floppy drive.
05:29:34 <pikhq> I can guarantee that this is orders of magnitude faster.
05:29:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah but already copied the floppies to disk with dd
05:30:03 <pikhq> Still fast enough.
05:30:11 * Sgeo learns a lesson
05:30:18 <Sgeo> NEVER code just for the happy case
05:30:30 <Sgeo> Even if, in production, the happy case will always be true
05:30:47 <Sgeo> Because in development, it isn't necessarily the case
05:31:24 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: well, it's a balancing act. It is helpful to consider worse-case scenarios in an algirthm, but if you do it too much you waste a lot of time with boilerplate code. Sometimes you should just let it crash.
05:32:56 * pikhq tries to find a list of utils that POSIX requires
05:33:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, it is in the POSIX standard
05:33:32 <CakeProphet> I still haven't seen error-handling in Haskell in action.
05:36:01 <pikhq> AnMaster: It doesn't have a single handy list, but it's possible to see if something's required. Which works for me.
05:36:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, it has a list on the side in the pdf bookmarks
05:37:42 <pikhq> Gash darnit, awk is mandatory.
05:39:06 <pikhq> I don't care what it says, that's seperate from coreutils.
05:42:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, hey you are not ehird :P
05:43:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, iirc getline() is in POSIX 2008 and suc
05:44:08 <AnMaster> the glibc people managed to get a few things in
05:44:20 <AnMaster> things that are actually quite useful in general
06:07:30 <CakeProphet> I have this piss cheap vodka that I do not want to finish off straight. But I don't want to throw it into a shitty mixed drink either if it isn't going to waste good
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06:38:32 <pikhq> /bin/cat is 52k. That frightens me.
06:39:24 <coppro> I think you can do it in like 50 bytes
06:40:27 <pikhq> Mine's 8k with dietlibc, but then, that does include a full stdio implementation.
06:40:48 <pikhq> asmutils' is 684 bytes.
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06:45:58 <Deewiant> coppro: The ELF header is longer than 50 bytes :-P
06:46:19 <coppro> It was something really silly
06:46:31 <coppro> (it wasn't compliant though; just straight no-option cat
06:46:56 <Deewiant> Something like 250-300 bytes is probably doable
06:47:01 <pikhq> coppro: asmutils' is *GNU* compliants.
07:28:15 <CakeProphet> !haskell sequence $ [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8,9]]
07:28:19 <EgoBot> [[1,4,7],[1,4,8],[1,4,9],[1,5,7],[1,5,8],[1,5,9],[1,6,7],[1,6,8],[1,6,9],[2,4,7],[2,4,8],[2,4,9],[2,5,7],[2,5,8],[2,5,9],[2,6,7],[2,6,8],[2,6,9],[3,4,7],[3,4,8],[3,4,9],[3,5,7],[3,5,8],[3,5,9],[3,6,7],[3,6,8],[3,6,9]]
07:29:33 <CakeProphet> !haskell sequence $ [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8,9,10]]
07:29:35 <EgoBot> [[1,4,7],[1,4,8],[1,4,9],[1,4,10],[1,5,7],[1,5,8],[1,5,9],[1,5,10],[1,6,7],[1,6,8],[1,6,9],[1,6,10],[2,4,7],[2,4,8],[2,4,9],[2,4,10],[2,5,7],[2,5,8],[2,5,9],[2,5,10],[2,6,7],[2,6,8],[2,6,9],[2,6,10],[3,4,7],[3,4,8],[3,4,9],[3,4,10],[3,5,7],[3,5,8],[3,5,9],[3,5,10],[3,6,7],[3,6,8],[3,6,9],[3,6,10]]
07:30:07 <CakeProphet> so the size of each sub-list is the minimum size of the input sub-lists
07:33:28 <CakeProphet> for some reason it reminds me of powerset, but it's not the same.
07:34:16 <CakeProphet> oh, and there's one size-4 list.... so now I have no fucking clue what sequence does on [[a]]
07:34:36 <CakeProphet> other than a bunch of permutation-like lists
07:39:45 <EgoBot> [[1,3],[1,4],[2,3],[2,4]]
07:40:20 <EgoBot> [[1,4],[1,5],[1,6],[2,4],[2,5],[2,6],[3,4],[3,5],[3,6]]
07:40:28 <fizzie> Deewiant: Speaking of small executables, I have a 253-byte stub (inc. ELF headers + code) for x86-32 which does (with direct syscalls) fork+exec /bin/bzcat, feeds it a blob, reads it to rwx segment and jumps into it.
07:41:42 <fizzie> Deewiant: (I use it for compressed executables, since UPX's compression ratio isn't so awesome and its decompression stub is larger; while the "traditional" trick of making a shellscript that decompresses into /tmp/x and runs it is so ugly.)
07:43:14 <fizzie> Deewiant: (Anyhow, I'm sure you can get a "doesn't look at argv, just read+write loop" cat into the 100-150 byte range. My headers are 72 bytes, and you can stick 9 bytes of code into the padding in the middle anyway.)
07:46:30 <coppro> every Haskell function is deterministic
07:47:13 <CakeProphet> each sublist in the output becomes a non-deterministic value of a new non-deterministic sequence... represented determinnistically as a [[a]]
07:47:22 <CakeProphet> coppro: simulated, of course. I use non-deterministic loosely.
07:47:47 <coppro> how is this non-deterministic at all?
07:48:26 <CakeProphet> let's say the input to the sequencefunction is a sequence x(n)
07:49:39 <EgoBot> [[1,3,5],[1,3,6],[1,4,5],[1,4,6],[2,3,5],[2,3,6],[2,4,5],[2,4,6]]
07:51:22 <CakeProphet> x(0) = 1 or 2; x(1) = 3 or 4; x(2) = 5 or 6
07:52:24 <CakeProphet> it's a simulation of a non-determinstic sequence that constructs every possible deterministic sequence that it represents.
07:55:44 <CakeProphet> !haskell do {nd_list <- sequence [[1,2,3],[4,5,6]]; nd_list}
07:55:46 <EgoBot> [1,4,1,5,1,6,2,4,2,5,2,6,3,4,3,5,3,6]
07:56:26 <CakeProphet> !haskell join $ sequence [[1,2,3],[4,5,6]]
07:57:15 <coppro> [00:52:11]<CakeProphet>I don't think I'm making any sense. <-- this
07:57:50 <CakeProphet> it's basically how the monadic operations of [] a represent non-determinism
07:58:09 <CakeProphet> sequence takes one representation and flips it around in a way.
07:59:47 <CakeProphet> so instead of having a list where each sub-list is a non-deterministic value
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08:00:17 <CakeProphet> you now have a list where each sub-list is a possible determinized list.
08:00:49 <CakeProphet> of the original non-deterministic sequence
08:01:22 <CakeProphet> natural language makes technical things hard to explain.
08:01:31 <Deewiant> fizzie: I was thinking of "completely ordinary" executables, not using parts of the ELF header for code. :-)
08:01:46 <fizzie> But everyone's doing that!
08:01:46 <Deewiant> fizzie: But I did misremember that the headers were around 120 bytes or so.
08:04:32 <CakeProphet> !haskell do {x <- [1..9]; return $ [x, x+1, x+2]}
08:04:33 <EgoBot> [[1,2,3],[2,3,4],[3,4,5],[4,5,6],[5,6,7],[6,7,8],[7,8,9],[8,9,10],[9,10,11]]
08:05:01 <fizzie> Deewiant: They're about that size if you have more than one segment, which you will in a "completely ordinary" executable (one read-write for data, one read-executable for code).
08:05:16 <EgoBot> [1,2,3,2,3,4,3,4,5,4,5,6,5,6,7,6,7,8,7,8,9,8,9,10,9,10,11]
08:05:35 <fizzie> Deewiant: (Also mine would be 80 bytes already, I just interlaced the last 8 bytes of the file header with the first 8 of the segment header.)
08:05:35 <Deewiant> Well, you probably don't need a non-code segment for cat
08:06:15 <CakeProphet> you could implement a monad for digital signal processing that makes things like delay-lines easy to do.
08:07:08 <fizzie> htkallas@pc112:/users/htkallas/tmp$ nasm -Ox -o cat -f bin cat.asm ; chmod u+x cat
08:07:08 <fizzie> htkallas@pc112:/users/htkallas/tmp$ echo 'foo, bar, baz' | ./cat
08:07:08 <fizzie> htkallas@pc112:/users/htkallas/tmp$ ls -l cat
08:07:08 <fizzie> -rwxrw-r-- 1 htkallas htkallas 110 2010-07-06 10:06 cat*
08:07:49 <CakeProphet> do { (dval, x) <- signalWithDelay 3 [1..]; return $ dval+x}
08:08:14 <Deewiant> fizzie: Doesn't take arguments, I take it :-)
08:08:16 <CakeProphet> psh, wtf am I saying. You don't even need to define a new type.
08:08:37 <fizzie> Deewiant: Right. Haven't tested it much either, might have bugs. Might also be a bit overly pessimistic as to whether a syscall's argument registers stay intact; I think they might, which would save some bytes.
08:08:43 <Deewiant> I was thinking POSIX-compatible
08:08:52 <CakeProphet> signalWithDelay :: Int -> [a] -> [(Maybe a,a)]
08:09:14 <Deewiant> fizzie: I don't think that's guaranteed anywhere, but I'm not sure.
08:09:43 <CakeProphet> signalWithDelay :: Int -> Int -> [a] -> [([Maybe a],a)]
08:10:04 <fizzie> Deewiant: Somebody claimed it was, and the syscall handling seemed to suggest they were, but I didn't see it exactly spelled out in the docs anywhere. The syscall number is lost, at least, since that's the return value register.
08:10:08 <CakeProphet> first int is distance back, second int is size of the delay line.
08:11:45 <fizzie> Some architectures clobber the syscall argument registers, according to some glibc bug report I found when googling for whether x86-32 does.
08:12:21 <CakeProphet> delayedSignalWithDefault :: Int -> Int -> Int -> [([a],a)]
08:12:55 <CakeProphet> delayedSignalWithDefault :: a -> Int -> Int -> [([a],a)]
08:17:57 <CakeProphet> do you think there would be any real harm in making tuple types a superset of all algebraic data types with a single constructor that fits the tuple?
08:19:44 <coppro> congratulations, you just described Haskell lists
08:20:08 <CakeProphet> is there any reason to make tuples distinct from named algebraic constructors.
08:20:37 <CakeProphet> why couldn't tuples simply represent /any/ constructor for pattern matching?
08:20:58 <fizzie> Deewiant: 101 bytes if I assume the regs are saved, and it seems to work.
08:21:27 <Deewiant> fizzie: Of course it may work, but that doesn't mean it's ABI-guaranteed :-)
08:21:35 <CakeProphet> a value of type (a, [a]) would contain the set of [a] values constructed via (:)
08:22:06 <fizzie> Deewiant: There were some .pdf slidesets that seemed to suggest it was. :p
08:22:33 <CakeProphet> but a value of type (a, [a]) would not include values of type [a] constructed from []
08:23:23 <CakeProphet> [a] values constructed from [] could be type ()
08:24:10 <fizzie> Deewiant: http://sprunge.us/LhDM if you want to see them codes.
08:25:02 <CakeProphet> instead of writing functions that operate on specific named types of specific typeclasses
08:25:24 <CakeProphet> you could instead write functions that operate on any algebraic data structure constructed with a certain signature
08:27:38 <Deewiant> fizzie: I note no error checking
08:27:48 <Deewiant> fizzie: Where's your buffer size?
08:28:11 <CakeProphet> under that typing system, (1,(2,(3,()))) would be equivalent to [1,2,3] as well as any other algebraic value constructed the same way.
08:28:39 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's the same as the buffer's address. You know, to save bytes.
08:28:50 <fizzie> Deewiant: (That's why I loaded the program to a reasonably low address.)
08:29:20 <fizzie> And there *is* error checking of sorts; if the read fails, it'll exit.
08:29:28 <fizzie> If the write fails, though, then it won't bother.
08:29:28 <CakeProphet> imagine if the address was 1 billion base 10. :)
08:29:51 <Deewiant> But with the correct error code?
08:30:13 <fizzie> Well, no, of course not. That would mean I'd have to distinguish between errors and end-of-file.
08:30:48 <Deewiant> Your cat is but a poor approximation of a cat
08:31:09 <fizzie> Deewiant: You can possibly add a "sets bl" into some proper spot to get return code 0 of the program when it hits EOF, and 1 when an error occurs.
08:31:32 <fizzie> The worst part of the cat is that it won't read files specified as arguments, admittedly.
08:32:29 <Deewiant> Also, write may write less than it's given; you need to loop it until it's done
08:33:01 <Deewiant> I'll stick to GNU cat; it may be bloated but at least it works!
08:34:10 <CakeProphet> [] :: [a], EOF :: ExampleStreamType a, () :: ()
08:34:47 <fizzie> Deewiant: The decompression stub I have now writes the whole compressed code into a FIFO before starting to read from bzcat; it works because Linux's pipe buffers are 64k nowadays. I used to have three processes (one child to exec bzcat, one child to loop-write bytes into its stdin, the parent to read until EOF and then run the code) but that took far too many bytes; to get it under 256 bytes I had to cut some corners.
08:36:12 <fizzie> Another "nice" trick: I put bzcat's argv list at the very end of the program, because that way I don't need to explicitly put the terminating NULL pointer in the file, since what's after the program is zero-initialized data already.
08:49:14 <CakeProphet> bah... sockets in Haskell are not very well documented
08:50:46 <coppro> http://yourfreedom.hmg.gov.uk/repealing-unnecessary-laws/repeal-the-2nd-law-of-thermodynamics-1
09:04:35 <fizzie> Deewiant: I almost never manage to do any breakfast at home, so I have to do a 10:30 lunch here.
09:05:03 <Deewiant> Breakfast is the most important meal of the day etc
09:08:37 <fizzie> Let's call what I just ate a "breakfast", then.
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11:24:38 <CakeProphet> I think I program a little better after being drunk
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14:22:00 <nooga> AnMaster: sorry for disappearing, my battery was depleted
14:25:03 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> nooga, wtf is http://plfoto.com/zdjecie,inne,wkrotce-bal-sie-tutaj-rozpocznie,1549252.html ? Some sort of post-apocalypse world?
14:25:07 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> nooga, and tell your dad I think your images are awesome. And I love HDR.
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14:42:03 <nooga> not post-apocalypse but post-soviet :D
14:46:32 <AnMaster> Hm wow. Any of you have a classical PC keyboard nearby. Not low profile that is. And a rubber band.
14:46:32 <AnMaster> Put the rubber band around ESC-F12, wait while it slides up the keys... Try to predict which way it flies.
14:46:49 <nooga> it was like soviets took polish manors and turned them into big farms & stuff and then left
14:47:06 <nooga> so there are some ruined places like this
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14:50:25 <cheater99> nooga: it's not like they weren't pigstalls before the russians came
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14:52:23 <cheater99> the royals getting drunk and high all the time for the money they got from traders for selling off their influence
14:52:49 <cheater99> you can only have so many drunken parties in a nice place before it turns into a crackhouse
14:53:16 <nooga> http://cutr.pl/5ec68700f0
14:55:56 <cheater99> do you truly think if the polish gave a shit about their country this stuff would like that *today*?
14:56:14 <cheater99> 25 years after overthrowing the soviet regime?
14:56:53 <AnMaster> <cheater99> AnMaster: no. <-- ?
14:57:20 <cheater99> AnMaster: i refuse to be a slave executing your rubberband schemes.
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15:36:08 <ais523> wow, someone found an XSS bug in Youtube comments (now fixed)
15:36:24 <ais523> the string that broke them was <script><script> without closing either tag
15:37:21 <ais523> and 4chan spammed it all over everything
15:39:45 <ais523> I'm pretty concerned that XSS still exists nowadays; you'd think that preventing HTML injection would be just as easy as preventing SQL injection
15:39:52 <ais523> if you want to allow HTML-alike formatting, use a whitelist
15:39:58 <ais523> OK, loads of people get this wrong, but Google?
15:40:22 <AnMaster> ais523 maybe it broke their html parser?
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15:48:32 <cpressey> a) youtube is only nominally google and b) google's schtick is casting the *illusion* of being filled with smart, competent people, not actually *having* them
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18:07:46 <augur> im not your sweetie, cupcake.
18:08:31 <augur> im not your sweetheart, sugar
18:08:31 <ais523> augur: you're being weirder than normal today...
18:08:39 <ais523> anything interesting esolanging-wise going on?
18:08:55 <augur> tho i do have a wonderful way of understand Huet's zippers
18:08:57 <ais523> I'm wondering if you've managed to come up with the next Feather and have gone insane as a result
18:09:12 <augur> im considering a nice, pen-and-paper animation to explain it
18:09:53 <augur> have i mentioned im sleep deprived
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18:11:38 <augur> if i were anything else, you could ask me the same question!
18:12:12 <ais523> augur: technically speaking, I'm probably sleep-deprived too
18:12:25 <ais523> but I tend to be more coherent than you under such circumstances
18:12:34 <ais523> I just get exasperated more easily
18:12:43 <ais523> Nephilim: what brings you here?
18:13:31 <ais523> (I'm assuming you're new rather than a regular here, because I can only think of one regular who uses Colloquy and their whois info wouldn't look like that)
18:14:56 <Nephilim> Just trying colloquy for the first time and this room just looked like my cup of tea. Just on the train home from work to be honest.
18:15:25 <AnMaster> Nephilim you know it is about esoteric programming?
18:15:44 <ais523> AnMaster: esoprogramming is probably more popular
18:15:51 <ais523> at least among people who are vaguely likely to use Freenode
18:15:56 <AnMaster> Nephilim your nick. It reminds me of some old game
18:16:04 <ais523> AnMaster: it's a M:tG reference
18:16:10 <AnMaster> probably something I played back on my old classic mac
18:16:13 <ais523> as far as I know, they coined the word in the first place
18:16:37 <ais523> they do sometimes borrow words from other sources, though
18:16:37 <AnMaster> some kind of cat-humanoid race in the avernum game
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18:17:58 <ais523> train must be going through a tunnel or something
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18:18:08 <ais523> either that, or he or she's holding it on the bottom left corner
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18:18:47 <AnMaster> ais523, so I have about 500 MB of raw files here
18:19:08 <ais523> AnMaster: raw as in the image unformat?
18:19:23 <AnMaster> ais523, raw as in *.MRW from camera yes
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18:19:54 <AnMaster> now to extract all the data from it
18:20:25 <ais523> meh, it's not often Apple give us such a perfect meme to make fun of them with, even if it's an unfair one
18:21:00 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't think I can batch convert these raw images though
18:21:19 <AnMaster> not if I want to extract the most from the over exposed sky
18:21:22 <ais523> AnMaster: ImageMagick (or your favourite fork of it) probably can
18:21:31 <ais523> at least, in terms of transforming them into a more standard format
18:21:37 <AnMaster> ais523, duh I need ufraw to convert it, and there is ufraw-batch
18:21:53 <AnMaster> it was trying to extract most from the sky
18:22:05 <AnMaster> it will need some manual exposure compensation fiddling
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18:30:00 <fizzie> Deewiant: Did I see you otherwhere? How come? (I guess I technically should ask on that other channel, but somehow I feel more comfortable talking here.)
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18:31:45 <ais523> fizzie: this is an odd channel that way
18:33:38 <Ilari_antrcomp> Heh... 8 POV-Rays running in parallel (this is what you get for well-paralelizable problems).
18:37:53 <nooga> raytracing is extremely well-paralelizable
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18:42:15 <nooga> if you've got 8 cores, why not
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18:43:57 <Ilari_antrcomp> Not that individual frames are heavy... But there's lots of them (tens of thoursands).
18:44:11 <fizzie> An embarrassingly parallel problem.
18:44:49 <nooga> what are you rendering?
18:44:52 <Ilari_antrcomp> I don't use POV-Ray internal animation features but feed scenes to render from Lua script.
18:46:42 <Ilari_antrcomp> The scene data is adapted from one game and motion data from one of my runs of said game. So in essence it is that run from 1st person POV.
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18:51:33 <nooga> you're raytracing skyroads
18:51:48 <fizzie> At least the scenes won't be overly complicated then.
18:52:34 <nooga> how did you manage to get the scene and motion data from the game?
18:52:51 <AnMaster> Ilari_antrcomp, what is skyroads?
18:53:38 <fizzie> AnMaster: Arcadey thing; see http://www.bluemoon.ee/history/skyroads/
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18:54:28 <nooga> they used arrays for that?
18:55:03 <Ilari_antrcomp> Of course, to get the motion data, one has to read the memory once per frame.
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18:55:26 <fizzie> AnMaster: And the channel is... uh, well, it's named after a room in the CS building of our university.
18:55:35 <nooga> i'd love to see ready animation
18:56:25 <fizzie> Ilari_antrcomp: Are you putting the low-resolution Skyroads background planets-and-stars-and-such images in, too?-)
18:56:28 <Ilari_antrcomp> Estimated length of finished animation: About 13 minutes 20 seconds.
18:56:57 <fizzie> And what about the "starship"? That's a sprite "in reality", I guess.
18:57:04 * pikhq freaking loves Duff's Device coroutines
18:57:46 <fizzie> Ah. Well, that makes sense.
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19:00:11 <Ilari_antrcomp> And that run presents total breaking of the game (I have the corresponding data from Skyroads Xmas special as well (okay, who was the sadist who designed levels there?)).
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19:00:40 <Sgeo> Ilari_antrcomp, several times, when I have mentioned my.. food issues to people, they have asked if I like pizza
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19:01:03 <Deewiant> fizzie: It's more lifey than the channel of our department
19:02:43 <fizzie> Wow, the departmental channel must be pretty dead, then.
19:03:30 <Deewiant> It's got a single-digit amount of users and half of them aren't actually in the department (though they used to be)
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19:04:19 <fizzie> Heh. Well, I guess at least half of the people on "that channel" aren't in the particular room, either.
19:05:59 <fizzie> (Admittedly it's not quite as quiet usually as it is now; must be all those people on their vacations.)
19:07:06 <Deewiant> The amount of lines said during the time I've been there outnumbers what's been said on the other during the past few months or so
19:09:15 <fizzie> Deewiant: 732 lines said during the month of June, according to my log.
19:09:21 <pikhq> I'm not sure why, I'm not sure how, but I do believe that this sucker is being annoying as heck.
19:09:59 <pikhq> WHY IS RETURN SEGFAULTING D':
19:10:03 <Deewiant> fizzie: That's probably more than's been said on the other channel in the few years I've been there
19:11:47 <fizzie> Ilari_antrcomp: Are you going to keep talking about this? Because I'm going to have to start playing it if you are. (I guess it would work all right in dosbox.)
19:13:30 <Ilari_antrcomp> It would work in DosBox. But as warning, its pretty hard (even the non-Xmas version).
19:13:47 <fizzie> Oh, I've played through all the levels before; I know what it's like.
19:13:50 <fizzie> Well, the regular one.
19:13:58 <fizzie> The Xmas Special I haven't.
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19:15:45 <fizzie> Yes, I wouldn't think they'd release something they themselves couldn't do at least once.
19:16:22 <Ilari_antrcomp> Or they used the demo feature to "do" them. There are levels that seem to require almost frame-perfect timing.
19:18:54 <AnMaster> Ilari_antrcomp, can you show some frames of this animation
19:18:58 <fizzie> I do remember spending quite many attempts in some of the levels of the original game, too.
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19:21:10 <fizzie> Road 1 of The Earth, at least.
19:21:12 <oerjan> <cheater99> where are o(klopol|erian) <-- YOU WILL NEVER KNOW
19:22:09 <Ilari_antrcomp> The Earth Road 3 was one of the hardest in original game. Now do it in under 30 seconds. :-)
19:22:23 <AnMaster> 1.1 GB image data... (*.MRW + 8-bit tiff, too much for me to be able to pull off 16-bit on my systems)
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19:24:04 <ais523> Ilari_antrcomp: given the subject of conversation and past context, I'm now vaguely wondering if it works on JPCRR
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19:26:15 <ais523> Ilari_antrcomp: speedrun rather than tas?
19:26:30 <ais523> ah, first result /is/ a tas
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19:29:50 <fizzie> SWFroads seems to handle very differently from the original.
19:29:53 <ais523> AnMaster: it means that it records everything you do, and if you go back to a savestate, it edits the recording accordingly
19:30:12 <ais523> thus, at the end you get one single recording with all your loadstating edited out
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19:32:11 <Ilari_antrcomp> AnMaster: But then, everything depicted is really possible in the game.
19:32:25 <fizzie> Ilari_antrcomp: Is that first-hit youtube thing yours, by any chance?
19:32:28 <AnMaster> but inhuman to manage to pull off
19:33:00 <AnMaster> Ilari_antrcomp, anyway I want to see some frames from this animation
19:33:08 <AnMaster> also what does antrcomp stand for
19:33:18 <fizzie> "Another computer" would be my guess.
19:34:32 <cpressey> No, it's a computer made out of ants.
19:35:05 <AnMaster> like toys r us? ants r computers?
19:35:49 <fizzie> The curious thing is that when I google for "JPCRR", the first hit is a Git repository, and the "owner" field has a name that matches to a person who was on the same class as I in high school, and the three previous grades.
19:36:11 <cpressey> fizzie: That's the universe doing that THAT it does, again.
19:36:35 <cpressey> I think I meant to type THING there, but what I did type is almost better.
19:36:51 <AnMaster> I was wondering about the logic of it
19:37:02 <Ilari> http://imagebin.ca/view/wTPovq.html
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19:43:32 <Ilari_antrcomp> Final renders would be with much larger resolution + AA turned on.
19:43:50 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/TENK I present: cal!
19:44:14 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/YJVa Really!
19:44:55 <Ilari_antrcomp> And if you are wondering if that pink in that image is burning surface... Yes it is.
19:46:10 * pikhq should clean a few things up there though
19:48:15 <fizzie> You could make the burning floors glow pink a bit, and the fuel-filling ones glow blue. Nothing ostentatious, just something subtly visible.
19:49:19 <Ilari_antrcomp> I'm thinking making burning floors bit lava-like, fuel-filling ones glow, slippery ones look icy, and boost and sticky to have arrows. :-)
19:51:37 <fizzie> Gah, that Asteroid Belt 3 fuel thing.
19:51:41 <Ilari_antrcomp> BTW: If one wanted to make skaizoroads, one could play with palette mapping entries (there are 71 per level) concerning burning blocks...
19:53:02 <Ilari_antrcomp> Its possible jump to that hole without slowing down (other than from banging the ship a bit).
19:54:09 <fizzie> Yes, but I ran out of fuel in that level quite many times; it's not exactly obvious it refills fuel there.
19:57:14 <Ilari_antrcomp> The only level where I have managed to run out of fuel without missing fuel pad: Druidia Road 1.
19:58:45 <ais523> do you consider skyroads a racer or a platformer?
19:59:19 <ais523> just finished watching your TAS
19:59:46 <cpressey> Is City Connection a racer or a platformer? :)
20:00:12 <ais523> hmm, you could arguably even call Enigma a platformer, although it's primarily a puzzle game
20:00:17 <ais523> some of the levels are rather platformish
20:02:08 <Ilari_antrcomp> One can do enigma level such that its easily possible to show from level program that it is possible to solve with solution of practical length, but still remain infeasible to solve.
20:02:50 <ais523> Ilari_antrcomp: well, of course
20:03:04 <ais523> but that wouldn't make for a very good puzzle
20:06:23 * pikhq introduced a bug, is now upset
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20:06:57 <Ilari_antrcomp> Level that is really expander graph that gets partially swapped out? :-)
20:08:08 <ais523> Ilari_antrcomp: Sokoban is PSPACE-complete, and Turing-complete if generalised to infinite puzzles
20:08:53 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/RWaI
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20:11:22 <Ilari_antrcomp> Those kind of levels are related to construct that it is possible to obustificate what triggers something in program (including obustificating what it triggers).
20:11:58 <pikhq> Apparently nobody looks at my code ever. :P
20:12:44 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:21:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, of course, except when it is in microcosm!
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20:49:54 <coppro> ais523: How do you define Sokoban's inputs and outputs?
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20:51:15 <pikhq> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/coroutine.h
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20:52:07 <pikhq> Just coroutines with switches.
20:52:23 <pikhq> Believe me, it's better this way.
21:09:59 * pikhq gets tempted to reimplement inflate.
21:10:07 <pikhq> If only I knew why.
21:11:15 <oerjan> inflated ego, clearly.
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21:42:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, as in decompressed for deflate?
21:50:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, why not reimplate deflate
21:52:22 * oerjan whacks AnMaster's joke detector to see if it improves
21:53:04 * AnMaster 's joke detector starts humming and the emits a huge amount of black smoke
21:53:36 <fizzie> Re-impale deflagrations.
21:53:39 <oerjan> i say that's an improvement.
21:55:19 <oerjan> flagrant impalas re-rioting
21:56:30 <fizzie> Reconfigure fragrant imports.
21:59:00 <oerjan> conifer import grant figures
22:01:46 <fizzie> Reconnaissance implies grafted sporks.
22:04:34 <oerjan> ork spies reconnect imp graph liaisons
22:09:20 <fizzie> Leprechaun futures: investment returns guaranteed.
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22:10:40 <micahjohnston> what is a kind of expressions that has the flexibility of a stack-based language but isn't stack-based?
22:12:17 <oerjan> leopard furs invert gargantuan crutches
22:19:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, oerjan: how were you making those up?
22:21:13 <fizzie> I don't know about oerjan, but I used this brain thing.
22:28:17 <olsner> fizzie: yeah right, as if
22:29:25 <fizzie> The famous "as if" rule says I don't actually have to have a brain, as long as I produce text that looks "as if" it was generated with one.
22:30:43 <fizzie> If you had half a brain, you'd be missing the other half.
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22:34:12 <oerjan> and if you got hold of that half, you'd be too clever by half.
22:41:37 <fizzie> I've half a mind to go asleep.
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22:45:31 <aliseiphone> I have the light on. Not visible from outside, comfier on inside. Logical...
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23:00:46 <aliseiphone> Firstly, do you really, REALLY need a fake coroutine there? Secondly, for all those pages of code, you don't handle September 1752 (even old Unix did this).
23:03:17 <oerjan> hey 1752 is an english-centered thing
23:04:13 <olsner> it would be cool if it was locale-sensitive and gave the right answer for the period of time when different countries were using old/new calendars
23:04:23 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Believe me, it gets *ugly* without the coroutine thing.
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23:05:05 <pikhq> For example, look at *any other implementation*.
23:05:06 <olsner> (no, not really... just complicated... but excessive attention to detail is somewhat amusing in a way)
23:05:06 <aliseiphone> pikhq: I won't believe you: I have read Plan 9's cal(1).
23:05:59 <aliseiphone> If you're not getting paid it's a lot less enraging to just ignore it...
23:06:11 <pikhq> olsner: Locale-sensitivity is why libc is several megs.
23:06:15 <olsner> indeed, that would be the point - making it locale sensitive just to make it harder
23:06:29 <pikhq> The point is to not be painful.
23:06:31 <olsner> make it harder to display dates from more than 200 years ago
23:06:46 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Good point on the Julian dates thing though.
23:07:01 <pikhq> Kinda violates POSIX to not support the Julian calendar.
23:07:05 <aliseiphone> Anyway, supporting "cal sep 1752" is Unix tradition.
23:07:40 <pikhq> No requirements to support month names or abbreviations.
23:07:49 <pikhq> Nor do I have the inclination to.
23:07:54 <aliseiphone> "The British calendar act of 1751 / declared twelve days of the following year / would not exist" —Make Believe, "Political Mysticism"
23:08:27 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Can I offer the god of usability and convenience to replace yours of POSIX compliance?
23:09:05 <pikhq> aliseiphone: I'm only giving credence to POSIX when it's not unreasonable.
23:09:32 <oerjan> usa-bility is just an american plot anyhow
23:09:59 <aliseiphone> "Try 'cal sep 1752'." (or similar) —some very old Unix manpage.
23:10:32 <aliseiphone> Month names and abbreviations! Three lines of code! Yay!
23:10:43 <pikhq> Seriously, GNU cal doesn't support it.
23:10:50 <pikhq> And these are the guys who made a bloated hello world.
23:12:11 <pikhq> Also: "Try 'cal sep 1752'." isn't UNIX, it's Plan 9.
23:12:51 <pikhq> Trying to find it!
23:13:31 <pikhq> aliseiphone: http://cm.bell-labs.com/sources/plan9/sys/src/cmd/cal.c
23:14:42 <pikhq> I'm... Not calling that "readable".
23:15:47 <aliseiphone> The performance hacks like the switch suck, yeah.
23:16:11 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, that one is broken too
23:16:27 <pikhq> No, the means it uses for printing out a complete year. I... Don't get it.
23:16:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, in sv_SE Monday comes first in the week
23:16:50 <cpressey> /* you are not expected to understand this */
23:17:01 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, and you go suck iphone
23:17:27 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Hellooo, using an iPhone because I'm IN A FUCKING INSTITUTION
23:17:42 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, yes and you can stop being rude towards me
23:18:11 <aliseiphone> Indeed. I'd say that you in turn could stop being idiotic, but that would be a lie.
23:18:25 <aliseiphone> pikhq: True, I thought the code was better.
23:18:38 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Guess I'll have to write my own cal(1).
23:20:21 <pikhq> AnMaster: "The cal utility shall write a calendar to standard output using the Julian calendar for dates from January 1, 1 through September 2, 1752 and the Gregorian calendar for dates from September 14, 1752 through December 31, 9999 as though the Gregorian calendar had been adopted on September 14, 1752."
23:20:46 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:20:55 <pikhq> AnMaster: Dude, locales are PAIN AND AGONY.
23:21:13 <pikhq> It'd take, like AliseOS to make them not painful.
23:21:31 <cpressey> If I set my locale to "The Region of Thud", do I get a Discordian calendar?
23:21:44 <pikhq> cpressey: If you add that as a locale: yes.
23:21:51 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Guess what: we don't give a flying fuck about Sweden. At least not while we're writing coreutils for our OWN USE.
23:21:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes everyone should just use the Swedish locale
23:22:09 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, well why didn't you say that it was for your own use
23:22:34 <pikhq> Half the point here is to be clean and readable. Half the point is to suck less than other coreutils.
23:22:50 <pikhq> And another half of the point is to be better than busybox.
23:22:55 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, you could spell check before you hit enter/send/whatever
23:23:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, correctness > completeness > simplicity, IMO
23:23:36 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Here's your iPhone keyboard. Here's your week-long stay in a mental institution. ENJOY!
23:23:55 <pikhq> AnMaster: It is perfectly correct to only support the C locale.
23:24:22 <pikhq> Also, you want a coreutils that supports more than that? Okay, fine. Here's GNU coreutils. Notice how it MAKES YOU CLAW YOUR EYES OUT.
23:24:27 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Ok: plan a move to UK while having only a computer, two days a week.
23:24:45 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, your parents could?
23:25:13 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: ParenT. The other rabidly supports the unit & divorced.
23:25:25 <pikhq> AnMaster: Read Coreutils source some time.
23:25:34 <pikhq> I'll hold the trash can while you vomit.
23:26:08 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: I'd like to see /you/ this close to the edge.
23:26:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, I have read coreutils cat
23:26:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, but for me who don't live in an English speaking country, supporting locales is actually something important
23:27:24 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, and you're free to use a coreutils that doesn't have simplicity as a major goal.
23:28:01 <aliseiphone> One day, the other languages will be extinct. Guaranteed by now.
23:28:06 <pikhq> And I do get that: you realise that I'm obsessed with supporting that correctly to the point of having a goal of making my system have the fonts for every single Unicode codepoint?
23:28:34 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:28:35 <pikhq> (it's fucking hard.)
23:28:56 <pikhq> micahjohnston: No, just major portions of the Roman empire.
23:29:03 <pikhq> And former portions.
23:29:14 <pikhq> Also, these were in times when travel could take several weeks.
23:29:23 <aliseiphone> Now, anyone can publish their own novel online.
23:29:28 <pikhq> Which makes the spread of Latin all the more impressive.
23:29:42 <aliseiphone> English is being written unimaginably rapidly.
23:29:54 <aliseiphone> It will evolve: but other languages are doomed.
23:31:22 <pikhq> aliseiphone: I wouldn't say English is the inevitable victor. However, so long as society doesn't completely and utterly fall apart, there will almost certainly end up being but one language in use for, oh, 99% of the world.
23:32:11 <pikhq> (minority languages can be *absurdly* tenacious if attached to something of cultural importance, like a religion.)
23:32:17 <aliseiphone> It's predicted that something like English, French, Spanish and Mandarin will be almost the only tongues left in like 400 years, isn't it?
23:32:45 <pikhq> If current trends continue, seems quite possible.
23:33:19 <aliseiphone> Mandarin is spoken by a lot of people but internationally. Out of the remaining ones, only English is used internationally in a large capacity.
23:34:11 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Can you pass a computed goto to a function?
23:34:31 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Very likely to break stuff, but yes.
23:34:37 <pikhq> A computed goto is just a void*.
23:34:57 <aliseiphone> So the function couldn't really goto it? Darn.
23:35:09 <pikhq> It could, but consider the stack frame.;
23:36:46 <pikhq> micahjohnston: Lingua franca bitch.
23:37:01 <AnMaster> did't it support every codepoint
23:37:16 <pikhq> It doesn't even support commonly used CJK.
23:37:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, I meant bitstream cyberbit or whatever it was called
23:37:49 <pikhq> Oh, yeah. Right. That supports *commonly used* CJK...
23:38:03 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: as you can see by my demostration of travel into the past. My time machine is flawless.
23:38:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, didn't it have pretty much every unicode codepoint?
23:38:10 <pikhq> Handles a mere 32,000 glyphs.
23:38:21 <pikhq> aliseiphone: I WANT ALL OF THEM
23:38:56 <pikhq> aliseiphone: CJK is the hard bit.
23:38:59 <CakeProphet> ha. a programming language whose semantics change based on font. :)
23:39:00 <pikhq> Fortunately, that's scriptable.
23:39:08 <pikhq> Yes, scriptable typesetting.
23:39:08 <aliseiphone> Make it a meta-font like computer modern; get more bang for our buck.
23:39:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, also iirc Chinese has more native speakers than English nowdays
23:39:42 <pikhq> AnMaster: There does not exist a Chinese language.
23:39:52 <pikhq> There exists a Chinese language family.
23:40:03 <aliseiphone> & native is irrelevant. Only fluency matters
23:40:15 <pikhq> AnMaster: Which is about as varied as the Romance language family.
23:40:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, same when written though
23:40:35 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, in tech community yes
23:40:43 <AnMaster> less so outside that and the western world
23:40:49 <CakeProphet> I actually think statistically too. Enlgish is the most common second language
23:41:02 <aliseiphone> yeah even idiots like AnMaster can communicate with us and be understood maybe 1% of the time
23:41:28 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: All the Mandarin speakers are IN CHINA.
23:41:44 <aliseiphone> If you don't understand the significance of this...
23:42:04 <pikhq> AnMaster: Only because of the bizarre fact that standard Chinese writing is written Mandarin.
23:42:18 <pikhq> Which is about on par with all Romance language speakers writing in French.
23:42:43 <pikhq> Or all Germanic language speakers writing in German.
23:42:49 <pikhq> Including English.
23:43:07 <pikhq> And it used to be classical Chinese until 50 years ago.
23:43:18 <pikhq> Which is about on par with all Romance language speakers writing in Latin.
23:43:20 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: oh hello. I just time traveled from the past. I went there so I could time travel into the future just a second. Dunno if you remember or not, I forgot how long ago it was.
23:43:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, I fail to see how this changes the fact that there are more native writers of Chinese than of English
23:44:14 <aliseiphone> AnMaster really thinks it's a numbers game. wow.
23:44:26 <pikhq> AnMaster: Except for the Mandarin speakers THEY'RE NOT EVEN NATIVE.
23:44:49 <pikhq> IT'S A FOREIGN LANGUAGE THAT HAPPENS TO BE RELATED TO THEIRS.
23:45:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, and they don't write in their own
23:45:36 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes they do.
23:45:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, it is not how it is officially counted in statistics though as far as I know
23:45:48 <CakeProphet> cpressey: were you present when I discovered that vodka, coke, and chocolate syrup is a delicious concotion. I'm not sure if such a thing has ever been done before (probably has)
23:45:50 <AnMaster> there Chinese tends to be counted as one language
23:45:52 <pikhq> Yes, this is because of nationalism.
23:46:02 <cpressey> And we can totally trust the Chinese government to give us accurate statistics, too.
23:46:09 <CakeProphet> I enjoy esoteric mixed drinks almost as much as I enjoy esoteric programming languages.
23:46:14 <cpressey> CakeProphet: No, I missed that.
23:46:42 <CakeProphet> it's just like vanilla coke... but with vodka, and chocolate.
23:46:55 <cpressey> Well, I'm sure theory and practice could be diverging, here.
23:47:02 <pikhq> Speakers of various Chinese languages write their own language actually *differently* from the "official" Mandarin.
23:47:24 <CakeProphet> is thinking of vanilla coke will help you imagine what it might taste like.
23:48:13 <CakeProphet> I mean it's just as reasonable of an additive to coca cola as vanilla.
23:48:14 <AnMaster> so coke with different flavour than cocke?
23:48:46 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, Sweden, why? I don't really like carbonated drinks either
23:48:53 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: ah okay. so just preference then.
23:49:16 <pikhq> AnMaster: So: would you like to continue asserting that Chinese is a single language?
23:49:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, I didn't assert that. I asserted that it was in statistics
23:49:38 <CakeProphet> well, I think what we're forgetting in this debate
23:49:44 <CakeProphet> is that Anglo-Saxons are superior to the Chinese
23:49:56 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Hey, the ROMANCE languages have more native speakers than AUSTRALIAN ENGLISH.
23:49:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, I do not consider myself a linguist or such
23:50:29 <AnMaster> and if that was humour it was rather bad
23:50:31 <pikhq> aliseiphone: The INDOEUROPEAN languages have more native speakers than MANDARIN.
23:50:38 <pikhq> Therefore Mandarin loses!
23:50:51 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: There's no time for humor when you're IN THE FUTURE.
23:52:18 <pikhq> AnMaster: BTW, it's *especially* retarded claiming that the Chinese languages are written the same way.
23:52:20 <aliseiphone> Anyone here — not AnMaster — played Mario 64?
23:52:41 <pikhq> Most of them are written using unstandardised methods of encoding the native morphemes and grammer...
23:52:51 <pikhq> And Cantonese has its own completely seperate written standard.
23:52:58 <aliseiphone> Recommended? I suppose so. I actually haven't played it.
23:53:19 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: depends. How kind of games have you played in the past?
23:53:26 <aliseiphone> SMB, Sunshine, Galaxy 1&2... but never 64.
23:53:31 <CakeProphet> I suppose I generally recommend it. It's a good game but I don't think I would play it again now.
23:53:54 <CakeProphet> you might be bored if you've played the newer ones. Tends to happen to me with games. But it's good.
23:53:57 <aliseiphone> I play all sorts; rarely FPSes or MMOGs though.
23:54:42 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: hmmm, lemme think of an awesome game to play. Do you own a Wii or Gamecube? I definitely recommend the Metroid Prime series.
23:55:07 <pikhq> In short: only idiots think that Chinese is a language.
23:55:08 <aliseiphone> I own a disused gamecube but not a wiii. I intend to buy a Wii.
23:55:27 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Mario 64 = <3
23:56:20 <CakeProphet> in fact I might play it right now instead of BROODING.
23:56:22 <cpressey> My favourite English is what is they use in Youtube comments!!
23:56:32 <aliseiphone> I'm a huge fan of the first Galaxy. Superb game.
23:56:52 <CakeProphet> !haskell randomRIO (0,1) --1 = SMB3 0 = re-read "The Difference Engine"
23:57:08 <aliseiphone> Beat it w/ Mario and Luigi enough to unlock the bonus. Yes, including Luigi's Purple Coins.
23:57:24 <CakeProphet> !haskell randomRIO (0,1) >>= print --1 = SMB3 0 = re-read "The Difference Engine"
23:57:45 <nooga> Ilari_antrcomp: how is your raytracing going?
23:58:12 <CakeProphet> !haskell System.Random.randomRIO (0,1) >>= print
23:58:31 <CakeProphet> ...sadly enough. This is how I make many of my real-life decisions.
23:59:27 <aliseiphone> I do that, then if I feel disappointed pick the other. Great way to figure out what you really want.
23:59:35 <CakeProphet> though Haskell isn't the most convenient language. I normally use Python due to rote
23:59:48 <aliseiphone> Automatic reactions = accurate self-reading.
23:59:58 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: yeah. Usually what happens with important things. I really couldn't decide this time though.