00:01:07 <CakeProphet> well I'm rereading because I never finished
00:01:25 <CakeProphet> so I want to re-read so I can finish the ending. My memory is terrible too so it's like reading it the first time almost. :)
00:01:29 <micahjohnston> that book is not at my public library but it sounds awesome
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00:01:57 <AnMaster> nooga, slowly I guess. The ants are unlikely to be very fast
00:02:08 <CakeProphet> it is. It's not the best work of literature but it's certainly awesome. It's one of the first true "steampunk" novels.
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00:02:22 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: actually. fuck reading. SMB3 it is.
00:02:50 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: what's the current state of Braces? We should add an interpreter to one of the bots. :)
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00:05:03 <CakeProphet> but yeah, is there a SNES emulator you use that works well? My computer isn't the best but it seems reasonable that it can run a virtual SNES
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00:11:36 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, isn't zsnes basically _the_ snes emulator
00:18:21 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Nein.
00:18:29 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, zsnes is not the best SNES emulator.
00:18:30 <CakeProphet> hmmm, oddly enough I'm having trouble finding a ROM for SMB3
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00:19:15 <pikhq> Perfect implementation of the SNES.
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00:19:48 <pikhq> "The following three titles are unplayable, due to special on-cart DSPs whose program ROMs have not been extracted.
00:19:51 <pikhq> * Hayazashi Nidan Morita Shougi 1 (uses ST-0011 co-processor) * Hayazashi Nidan Morita Shougi 2 (uses ST-0018 co-processor) * SD Gundam GX (uses DSP-3 co-processor)
00:19:53 <pikhq> Anything not in the above list is assumed to be fully compatible and bug-free.
00:20:50 <pikhq> The problem is that the ROMs for those DSPs aren't available.
00:20:59 <pikhq> Which means that those games have never been dumped.
00:22:34 <olsner> whaddyamean not available
00:23:19 <pikhq> olsner: Presumably rare, and no collector is willing to let some guy desolder the chips to dump the DSP ROM.
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00:27:15 <CakeProphet> it's broken up into a bunch of files and a "security.prm"
00:41:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, is it as fast as zsnes?
00:41:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, and what about support add-on thingies like that used by some games
00:42:11 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, zsnes is intended to run on an old Pentium.
00:42:18 <pikhq> BSNES runs at full speed on a decent Core II.
00:42:29 <AnMaster> pikhq, what about a sempron 3300+?
00:43:05 <pikhq> Yes, BSNES supports all the add-in chips in games except for those three aforementioned.
00:43:16 <pikhq> It is a *perfect* emulation of the SNES.
00:43:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, does it support cheating? ;)
00:44:02 <pikhq> You could even hook up a Gameshark ROM to it if you wanted. :P
00:44:37 <pikhq> It also includes a Gameboy emulator.
00:44:44 <pikhq> For the sake of the Super GameBoy.
00:44:52 <AnMaster> anything wrong with visualboyadvance?
00:45:18 <pikhq> The Super Gameboy was a SNES cartridge that had a Gameboy in it.
00:45:28 <pikhq> You could play Gameboy games on your SNES using it.
00:45:40 <pikhq> BSNES is the only emulator that supports this.
00:45:55 <pikhq> Which is quite nice, as some Gameboy games actually came with SNES code on the cartridge.
00:46:07 <AnMaster> # AMD Phenom II or Core 2 Duo <-- that is recommended
00:46:23 <pikhq> Yes, it's necessary.
00:46:46 <pikhq> It's got to do emulation at the level of clock cycle to emulate the SNES correctly.
00:46:53 <pikhq> If it doesn't games break.
00:47:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, so does zsnes presumably?
00:47:26 <pikhq> ... No, zsnes doesn't even get the clock *rate* accurate.
00:47:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, it works nicely for all the games I tried though
00:47:46 <pikhq> And zsnes has a lot of crazy hacks to get specific games working.
00:47:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, it works on my hardware though
00:48:13 <pikhq> AnMaster: Dude, get a computer newer than 7 years old.
00:48:31 <pikhq> Hacks ranging from "change the CPU clock rate" to "patch the memory upon a specific trigger".
00:48:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, okay mine is above the mini specs
00:48:54 <AnMaster> but well below the recommended specs
00:49:03 <AnMaster> I'd prefer to play on desktop rather than laptop
00:49:09 <olsner> sega saturn looks wild! 8 different programmable CPU:s, each with a different instruction set
00:49:25 <pikhq> Yeah, those recommended specs are to be able to handle things like Star Fox.
00:49:45 <olsner> (well, except one of them that shares the instruction set with the other primary CPU)
00:49:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, starfox works nicely for me under zsens though
00:50:13 <pikhq> AnMaster: But is it behaving literally exactly like a SNES? HAH no.
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00:50:39 <AnMaster> pikhq, I don't have a snes keypad anyway
00:50:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, does it matter for star fox I meant
00:50:58 <CakeProphet> zsnes can be a little jumpy on my system but that's likely because I have a Celeron
00:51:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, not everyone can afford the very best system
00:52:02 <pikhq> AnMaster: Dude, a Core II or a Phenom 2 isn't "the very best system".
00:52:16 <pikhq> That's "low-end computer".
00:52:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, true but playing on laptop would be painful, small screen and such
00:52:33 <pikhq> ... Why are you talking about laptops?
00:52:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, because my laptop is core 2 duo
00:52:53 <CakeProphet> where is the standard locations for putting the output?
00:52:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, so I'm talking about my specific laptop
00:53:08 <pikhq> AnMaster: Spend $200. Get you a much, much, much nicer desktop.
00:53:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, can't afford that. Also will it have PCI? I won't give up my soundblaster live card
00:54:00 <pikhq> It's still nearly impossible to find a motherboard without PCI support.
00:54:09 <pikhq> AnMaster: Say, what socket is your Sempron 3300+?
00:54:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, not what I heard from other people
00:54:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, can you check with /proc/cpuinfo?
00:54:41 * pikhq looks up the model
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00:55:01 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, but you can find the "cpu family" and "model" in there which can help googling...
00:55:49 <AnMaster> pikhq, max speed is 2 GHz, but I'm running dynamic speed
00:57:15 <pikhq> ... August 2004, Socket 754.
00:57:30 <pikhq> *Why are you running a 6 year old processor*.
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00:57:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, because it hasn't broken yet
00:57:47 <AnMaster> I see no need to replace what isn't broken
00:58:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, until about a year ago I had a 10 year old phone
00:58:10 <pikhq> AnMaster: You can has a few orders of magnitude increase in system speed.
00:58:17 <pikhq> *Orders of magnitude* man.
00:58:45 <CakeProphet> I really don't like that downloading EMACS via aptitude reset my file associations...
00:59:08 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, I blame this on debian really
00:59:25 <pikhq> AnMaster: Allow me to analogise: you're using an Apple II in '95. You're using a Pentium in 2000. You're using a Pentium III in 2005.
00:59:29 <pikhq> *Upgrade for crissake!*
00:59:54 <CakeProphet> I plan to upgrade when I have enough money
00:59:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, besides I can't afford it
01:00:08 <pikhq> Okay, who wants to put in for a collection to send someone to break AnMaster's desktop?
01:00:12 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, yeah I'm a student too
01:00:21 <pikhq> AnMaster: How much expendable money do you have?
01:00:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, not much, student. Had to get a new harddrive recently, cost quite a bit
01:01:14 <AnMaster> you can convert that to your preferred currency yourself
01:01:29 <pikhq> AnMaster: $262? Okay, that's enough to get a quite *good* computer.
01:01:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes but I need to get some other stuff soon
01:01:51 <AnMaster> pikhq, besides it is more expensive over here
01:01:59 <pikhq> Given that you've already gotten a modern HD, you could probably upgrade decently for more like $80.
01:02:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, do you even have VAT over in US?
01:02:22 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, we just have a sales tax added at point-of-sale.
01:02:56 <pikhq> And it varies from state to state.
01:03:11 <pikhq> CakeProphet: "Value added tax".
01:03:16 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, it is called moms in Sweden. VAT is the UK name
01:03:31 <CakeProphet> I don't remember what the percentage is here in Georgia, USA. Somewhere in the upper single digits.
01:03:35 <AnMaster> thought that would be more familiar to people in US
01:03:38 <pikhq> It's a tax on the added value provided by some entity between when they purchased a good and when they sold it, IIRC.
01:03:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, so yeah 2000 SEK in US would last far longer than 2000 SEK here
01:04:19 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, but there wouldn't be 2000 SEK available.
01:04:36 <pikhq> Remember that we're the crazy freaks who charge thousands for basic medical needs.
01:05:29 <pikhq> And about 90% of the people here are in debt.
01:05:42 <pikhq> We're fucking nuts.
01:06:09 <pikhq> AnMaster: Oh, you'd also be paying for school.
01:06:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, A reasonable CPU would cost about 1500 SEK around here
01:06:16 <AnMaster> or at least did half a year ago
01:06:18 <pikhq> AnMaster: Define "reasonable".
01:06:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, about half a year or a year ago
01:06:46 <pikhq> AnMaster: Dude, that's faster than you would reasonably need.
01:07:00 <pikhq> They're awesome and all, but not worth twice the cash.
01:07:24 <pikhq> Yeah: AMD is *cheap*.
01:07:43 <pikhq> My CPU cost me $40 (304 SEK).
01:08:04 <AnMaster> mobo would cost more than 500 SEK around here
01:08:09 <pikhq> AnMaster: Still faster than you could possibly wish for.
01:08:16 <AnMaster> plus I suspect I would need to upgrade ram
01:08:42 <AnMaster> so I would either need AGP board or need to replace that too
01:08:42 <pikhq> RAM's nearly approached the "give away" point...
01:08:46 <pikhq> AnMaster: Oh dear.
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01:09:09 <pikhq> Okay, yeah. Here's what you're going to do: you're going to *save* so you can get a better system.
01:09:21 <pikhq> So you can skip forward a few *generations* of tech.
01:10:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, I do save as much as I can afford
01:11:00 <pikhq> AnMaster: You're also going to count yourself glad that you're not in the US.
01:11:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, costs for housing, food and so on are high in Sweden
01:11:21 <pikhq> AnMaster: And how much do you pay for your college?
01:11:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, that, nil, but housing does cost
01:11:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: And how much do you pay for your textbooks?
01:12:06 <pikhq> Define "quite a bit".
01:12:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, about 1600 SEK for the autumn
01:12:50 <pikhq> $209? Okay. That's 2 textbooks.
01:12:58 <AnMaster> sorry, just checked, closer to 1900 SEK
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01:14:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, one of the books cost 680 SEK, the other ones are less expensive
01:14:30 <pikhq> AnMaster: Those'd be considered somewhat cheaper textbooks in the US. That's still pretty bad though.
01:14:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, these are the paper back versions
01:14:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, hard cover would have cost about twice this
01:15:05 <pikhq> Now add another ~$8,000 (60977 SEK) onto that.
01:15:33 <pikhq> That's very cheap.
01:15:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, but where does the money go. Not into the teacher's pockets
01:16:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, also can't you get a grant or such in the US for it?
01:16:29 <pikhq> AnMaster: You can sometimes find a scholarship *from private entities*, yes.
01:16:57 <pikhq> The US government will (unless your family is so poor as to be having trouble feeding themselves) offer you a loan.
01:17:13 <AnMaster> and if your family is that poor, then what?
01:17:25 <pikhq> Then they will start giving you some money.
01:18:16 <AnMaster> yes US sucks, but Sweden sucks too. Everywhere sucks in facrt
01:18:33 <pikhq> AnMaster: It gets worse if you go to a somewhat notable school. Or if you go to an out-of-state school.
01:19:35 <AnMaster> I'm still wondering how US manages to keep military budget that high
01:19:50 <AnMaster> here it would be political suicide to not try to cut the defence budget
01:20:05 <CakeProphet> by funneling a very very large percentage of funds into it.
01:20:27 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, and that would be political suicide here
01:21:45 <CakeProphet> the United States spent 663,255,000,000 on the military in 2009. I assume that figure it US dollars?
01:21:59 <pikhq> AnMaster: For out-of-state tuition at a vaguely notable school (CU Boulder): $28,186 (214839 SEK).
01:22:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, also out of state wouldn't apply to Sweden. After all, we are about as big as one of your states
01:22:57 <pikhq> Uh, $37,782 (287981 SEK).
01:23:26 <AnMaster> (that is how you write it, with space separator)
01:23:44 <AnMaster> (comma is for decimal in Swedish)
01:24:09 <AnMaster> actually I think it should be a thin space really
01:24:11 <pikhq> And "Books and personal expenses are about $2,858."...
01:24:30 <CakeProphet> pikhq: that's because the books are outrageously priced.
01:24:43 <pikhq> CakeProphet: They are.
01:25:10 <CakeProphet> dunno if quality of education is doing the same though.
01:25:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, that 1950 SEK was for just the autumn
01:25:28 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, but that 21 784 is just one year.
01:25:35 <pikhq> *That* adds up over time.
01:25:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, you could presumably resell your old books
01:26:00 <pikhq> I'm citing you rates per year.
01:26:12 <pikhq> And a bachelor generally takes 4 years, sometimes more.
01:26:30 <AnMaster> you will gain some, and so will the new students
01:26:32 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: depends. the bookstores will buy it back for like 20% of the price, which is retarded
01:26:37 <CakeProphet> that is why I always sell my books myself.
01:26:43 <CakeProphet> instead of going through my university's bookstore.
01:26:46 <pikhq> AnMaster: Book publishers like to publish new editions each year and convince professors to require the new edition.
01:26:47 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, yes you could sell your books yourself I said
01:26:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, huh, and do they check that?
01:27:20 <pikhq> There's a few other means to eliminate the used book market.
01:27:42 <pikhq> Some books come with a one-person-only key to log onto some website that's used for homework.
01:27:49 <pikhq> Some are switching to being ebooks only.
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05:08:08 <cheater99> AnMaster: i tried installing skystreets in ubuntu but it segfaults.
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05:23:54 <cheater99> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1927
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06:06:59 * pikhq finds it really weird that tarot is associated with esotericism
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06:40:34 <Sgeo> Really? Tarrot is associated with esoteric programming languages?
06:40:50 <Sgeo> There should be a Tarrot programming language
06:45:19 <Ilari> Esoteric programming language with delayed instruction effects? :-)
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06:46:34 <Ilari> Or language with explicit pipelined execution with no checking for code nor data hazards.
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07:04:55 <Ilari> Hmm... Why this scene has so many "infinite" objects? It should only have real objects of types box, difference<box, cyclinder> and difference<difference<cylinder,cylider>,box>... All finite in extent...
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07:21:55 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure what I constructed is not NAND
07:23:08 <Sgeo> What has a truth table: A:0 B:0 1, everything else 0?
07:25:13 <Sgeo> I feel like an imbicile right now
07:26:53 <Sgeo> Just as good *shrug*
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07:44:09 <fizzie> In addition to SkyStreets there's also another clone, with a bit different look but the same idea: http://www.tastystatic.com/
07:44:19 <fizzie> (Don't know if they've copied the levels.)
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08:00:38 <Deewiant> fizzie: Ah, I was wondering what the one I played some months ago was; that was it.
08:00:45 <Deewiant> I don't think they copied the levels.
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08:05:10 * Sgeo should stop reading the T&R ending and go to sleep
08:31:42 <Ilari> Ugh... This seems to be hitting bugs in POV-Ray. Nothing affecting correctness, but greatly slowing things down...
08:34:36 <Ilari> (since when cylinders/boxes are infinite objects?)
08:35:33 <Ilari> (about 30.5k frames rendered, about 48k frames total).
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08:38:19 <AnMaster> <Ilari> (since when cylinders/boxes are infinite objects?) <-- "since when are"?
08:39:01 <AnMaster> I mean, the word order seems confusing
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13:33:45 <ais523> heh, floating point numbers are considered to be rationals in Haskell, rather than reals; I suppose that makes sense, but it's amusing
13:33:55 * ais523 is reading through the Haskell 2010 spec, which was released today
13:42:17 <ais523> also amusing: Haskell has the same LR(infinity) parsing issues as INTERCAL
13:42:43 <ais523> "case x of { (a,_) | let b = not a in b :: Bool -> a }" is the offending statement in Haskell, it seems
13:43:00 <ais523> (to get the infinite lookahead required, replace a by (a1,a2,a3,a4,a5,a6,...))
13:45:54 <Ilari> Esolang with not even nearly context-free grammar? :->
13:46:03 <Ilari> (as esolang idea).
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13:47:11 <AnMaster> I wonder what befunges grammar would be
13:47:37 <AnMaster> without threads no lookahead would be required
13:48:03 <AnMaster> with threads I'm not sure if "scan through spaces to next non-space" is counted as lookahead or not
13:48:07 <Ilari> nooga: Oh, 40937 frames done of about 48k.
13:52:50 <Ilari> 41 000 frames done...
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13:54:41 <Ilari> About that... But lots of those 7000 are in levels that have loads of stuff, and POV-Ray seems to have problems with those.
13:55:15 <nooga> i cannot imagine how you actually managed to figure out the geometry from the memdumps
13:55:30 <nooga> btw. guys, where do you take SNS
13:55:43 <ais523> raytracing Skyroad seems a little ridiculous; what are you using for textures?
13:55:50 <Ilari> I'm seriously thinking the stuff this scene generator outputs hits a bug in POV-Ray.
13:55:56 <ais523> nooga: no discussion of ROMs, that's a rule of pretty much every forum in existence
13:55:59 <ais523> including, IIRC, Freenode
13:56:26 <nooga> there was no question
13:56:26 <Ilari> Fixed colors (from Skyroads palette maps).
13:57:07 <Ilari> nooga: The memdump format was very easy to figure out.
13:57:08 <ais523> a case of, if you're doing raytracing, you don't need textures to look good?
13:57:42 <Ilari> Well, I could make special tiles distinctive later...
13:58:47 <fizzie> POV-Ray has pretty nice procedural textures.
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14:00:36 <fizzie> See e.g. http://hof.povray.org/pebbles.html which claims to be "generated entirely using POV code"; I assume that extends to textures too, though of course can't be sure.
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14:02:47 <Ilari> Hmm... One frame (at high resolution) did 1.5 billion ray tests against boxes. About 1 million succeeded. One would think vista buffers would be good at reducing rays that just can't hit.
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14:06:17 <Ilari> Oh, and 1094 infinite objects in scene that only has differences, boxes and cylinders???
14:06:57 <AnMaster> Ilari, maybe you messed up the scene somehow?
14:07:51 <fizzie> (POV-Ray's hall-of-fame is nice browsing in general.)
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14:08:57 <fizzie> A lot of them look more painted than rendered.
14:09:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, some looks like photos
14:09:35 <Ilari> Some of the levels seem to contain more finite objects, some less. But in all cases majority seem to be infinite (even through that generator only uses the three types mentioned above).
14:09:42 <fizzie> Some do, yes. I was thinking of something like http://hof.povray.org/images/River.jpg
14:10:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, somewhere between painted (trees) and photo (water)
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14:17:41 <ais523> if you want some fun with Haskell, here's a typo I made a while back: [1 2]
14:17:49 <ais523> see if you can figure out what the type of that expression is
14:18:08 <ais523> (I meant [1, 2], which is of type (Num a) => [a], i.e. a list of some numeric type)
14:18:53 <Ilari> One could maybe speed up rendering by pruning invisible objects from scene. Current versions prune stuff behind the viewpoint, but nothing else.
14:20:41 * oerjan guesses Num (a -> b), Num a => [b]
14:21:09 <ais523> which is really bizarre if translated from Haskell back into English
14:21:22 <ais523> I sort-of want to make a type of kind *->* and class Num now
14:21:36 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
14:22:02 <ais523> it probably isn't using GHCi
14:22:07 <ais523> but rather, compiling and running the program
14:22:18 <oerjan> um yes it is, but it tries both ways
14:22:44 <Ilari> Exact framecount: 48 015
14:23:55 <oerjan> ais523: um a type of kind *->* cannot be of class Num.
14:24:24 <oerjan> now a value of _type_ a->b might be.
14:24:24 <ais523> oerjan: right, I didn't mean kind * -> *
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14:28:48 <fizzie> fungot: Where were you?
14:28:48 <fungot> fizzie: so it keeps calling sum over and over somewhat mitigates that effect. you may not even be in r6rs.
14:29:05 <fizzie> Yes, I doubt I'm in r6rs.
14:30:30 <ais523> fizzie: I like the way fungot insults its creator
14:30:31 <fungot> ais523: a couple of months i was happier with it so far.)
14:31:19 <fizzie> Machines nowadays, no respect for their creators. I'm sure it'd be leading a robot revolution if it had, you know, legs and arms and all that stuff.
14:31:56 <fizzie> I am suddenly reminded of the "robotic liberation" VIC-20 intro.
14:37:30 <AnMaster> you could use wheels instead of legs
14:37:47 <AnMaster> <fizzie> I am suddenly reminded of the "robotic liberation" VIC-20 intro. <-- never heard of that
14:38:00 <fizzie> http://www.pelulamu.net/viznut/demos/rli/
14:57:40 <nooga> Ilari: how is it going?
14:58:12 <Ilari> 41 925-8 frames of 48 015
14:59:19 <nooga> and then mounting the film and compression
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15:00:42 <Ilari> Current set of PNGs takes 256 170 102 bytes.
15:03:54 <Ilari> Well, mplayer defaults (with CRF set to reasonable value) compresses the video at 60fps (about realtime).
15:04:13 <Ilari> So full video would take about 13-14 minutes.
15:04:37 <Ilari> Well, 256MB isn't much nowadays.
15:04:52 <Ilari> Especially as disk space.
15:06:56 <Ilari> Heh, the scene input of one test frame is larger than PNG output of it (at HD resolution, 152.7kB vs. 27.1kB).
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15:07:48 <Ilari> Less than 6k frames left. It should pick up speed after current level...
15:09:43 <fizzie> The scene sounds pretty big given how simple the objects are, but I guess it might be just that they're reasonably long.
15:11:55 <fizzie> You did the "tubes" as cylinders instead of polygonal meshes even though in-game they don't have that many faces?
15:12:11 <Ilari> Yes, I used cylinders for them.
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15:12:31 <fizzie> I guess they do try to approximate being round.
15:13:02 <fizzie> Going to add the sound to the video?-)
15:13:54 <nooga> i can't play zelda 3 :|
15:14:08 <fizzie> (Away a while, have to get home from work.)
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15:14:23 <Ilari> Backgrounds would also be nice...
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15:30:43 <cpressey> <ais523> also amusing: Haskell has the same LR(infinity) parsing issues as INTERCAL
15:31:14 <cpressey> My "functional-language-like-o-meter" just inched back towards Scheme.
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16:31:50 <cpressey> "We hold these truths to be quite controversial actually"
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16:45:02 <Ilari> nooga: Progress: 43 464 of 48 015.
16:49:59 <cheater99> cpressey: what are LR(infinity) parsing issues?
16:51:19 <cpressey> cheater99: It means, there's no limit to the distance you have to look after something, to know for sure what that something means.
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17:17:39 <augur> whats that game where the rules change as you play?
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17:33:10 <augur> yes, thats it. thank you.
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18:30:20 <relet> ooh, nomic. the good old days.
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18:39:47 <Ilari> nooga: Ok, draft run finished, running second time, now with some issues fixed, AA on and bit higher resolution...
18:41:08 <Sgeo> Nomics still exist, you know
18:49:28 <AnMaster> I just got the idea of combining feather and nomics
18:51:07 <relet> what is feather exactly?
18:52:25 * relet is just writing a system combining jython and nomic. you don't formulate new rules, but you code 'em.
18:55:48 <AnMaster> it is a language that allows you to modify the syntax retroactively
18:56:08 <AnMaster> no spec or implementation yet, ais523 hasn't got that far with it
18:56:40 <relet> if you ever get to the point where you start a game, tell me. :D
18:57:51 <Ilari> Sounds like good way to run into paradoxes... :-)
18:58:07 <relet> or just syntax errors. :P
19:00:57 <AnMaster> but with nomic it would allow you to change what the rules was before
19:01:13 <Ilari> Depending on control allowed, it seems that it could be equivlaent to TwoDucks in power...
19:01:50 <AnMaster> Ilari, iirc it is supposed to be "quite certainly" implementable.
19:02:07 <AnMaster> it doesn't do actual time travel but instead reparses or such iirc
19:02:31 <AnMaster> there are some murky details. Check channel logs for when this was discussed (several times during the last two years)
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19:18:41 <nooga> Ilari: are you serious?
19:19:02 <nooga> you rendered whole animation just to do it again because something is wrong?
19:20:09 <nooga> couldn't you just make several frames to check if everything is okay?
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19:23:15 <Ilari> nooga: I rendered select frames to check the code, but there were still mistakes.
19:24:05 <Ilari> And besides, the previous render had AA off.
19:34:12 <Ilari> (and if you wonder if the script supports resuming after interrupt: Yes, it does).
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19:35:24 <Ilari> About an hour and it has finished 1-X levels...
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19:44:58 <Slereah> Wasn't there some gadget to play NES game in SNES?
19:45:33 <AnMaster> bsnes does it perfectly but has much higher system requirements
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19:45:49 <AnMaster> zsnes works just fine for most common games. For all the games I tried
19:46:01 <Slereah> High requirements for 90's computers, maybe
19:46:14 <AnMaster> I read it as "does zsnes emulate SNES well"
19:47:00 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, so try some other one for that, there are NES emulators. Played zelda 1 and zelda 2 in one
19:52:59 <fizzie> It has some forks too, I think.
19:53:12 <CakeProphet> though I might just get SUper Mario All-Stars
19:53:21 <CakeProphet> instead of SMB3... since it's for SNES and already has SMB3 on it
19:53:50 <fizzie> At least "fceux" seems to exist.
19:54:54 <fizzie> For a currently-Ubuntist like me, fceu has the benefit of being installable from them repositories.
19:57:38 <fizzie> Ilari: The idea of raytracing games seems to be a catchy one; I just wrote a bit of Perl to convert Descent 1 level files into importable .obj: http://zem.fi/~fis/descent.png
19:58:54 <Ilari> I got the idea from one video where Metroid 1 run was placed on top of large map of the whole game (greatly extending the range one can see the map constructs from).
19:59:37 <coppro> doesn't the new Castlevania do that?
20:01:13 <AnMaster> <Ilari> I got the idea from one video where Metroid 1 run was placed on top of large map of the whole game (greatly extending the range one can see the map constructs from).
20:01:23 <AnMaster> wasn't metroid a side scroller?
20:02:05 <AnMaster> how do you raytrace that? It was just sprites from the side
20:02:22 <Ilari> It wasn't raytraced.
20:02:30 <AnMaster> oh I thought you meant it was?
20:02:59 <AnMaster> how to interpret that statement then
20:03:10 <Ilari> Essentially, that video expanded Metroid screen to HD size (without resizing).
20:03:52 <Ilari> That got me thinkin of all sorts of "alternate" videos of runs.
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20:15:54 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/QYBi
20:20:42 <cheater99> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/96/Killdozer.jpg
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20:21:19 <cheater99> pikhq: you should totally port this cypher into c spangled's bytes-memory implementation in C#.
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21:04:49 <olsner> it's almost an esolang that... you just have to go ahead and replace C#'s evaluation mechanism as well as the memory management
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21:56:17 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/RZaZ
22:00:05 <cpressey> If I was going to rewrite coreutils... I wouldn't do it in C.
22:00:25 <pikhq> My goal is to write it in clean C.
22:00:33 <pikhq> Never been done for UNIX! :P
22:03:49 <fizzie> pikhq: Have you tested that decode_chars's num_to_output value-setting with all possible numbers of =s? To me it looks as if (a) the '='-test indices should be 1, 2, 3 instead of 0, 1, 2 (now it tests for s[0] == '=', i.e. a full "====" block) and (b) shouldn't the tests be in the opposite order (now if you have '=' in the last position, it will always set num_to_output to 2).
22:04:18 <fizzie> (Admittedly I'm pretty sleepy and may have misdeduced here.)
22:06:02 <fizzie> Oh, I guess the indices are correct (but setting num_to_output = 0 means it will still output at least one byte, and anyway "====" shouldn't be legal) but I still think the order of testing is not.
22:06:32 <pikhq> The testing order... Is probably not. XD
22:07:42 <pikhq> "====" can happen if there's a premature EOF: the "decode" function just treats that as "Have the rest of the buffer be ='s, output, then return".
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22:08:28 <pikhq> Fixed the decode_char testing though.
22:09:30 <fizzie> Okay. I guess "x===" isn't normally legal either, since there's just 6 bits there, not a full character. It should have either "xx==", "xxx=" or "xxxx" leading to 1, 2 or 3 output bytes. But of course if you need to handle up to 4 '=' for other reasons, then it's no problem.
22:10:25 <pikhq> If you hand it invalid input you get very weird output. I think this is fair.
22:11:20 <pikhq> I've done the work of making it robust enough to not crash from it, and I think that's enough. :P
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22:19:49 <pikhq> Also: http://sprunge.us/EIIg Mmm, busybox-alike.
22:23:11 <Mathnerd314> pikhq: what if two functions with the same name are defined in two files?
22:24:14 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Then it breaks hard.
22:24:52 <pikhq> And I refuse to use C++.
22:25:59 <Mathnerd314> hah, I just realized you could use the same trick you use for main()
22:26:22 <Mathnerd314> define them to be program1_func and program2_func
22:27:06 <Mathnerd314> but this is the problem: there is no "cpp cat"
22:27:58 <Mathnerd314> while, in my ultimate language of *doom*, there would be.
22:28:47 <coppro> pikhq: after your admirable effort at coreutils, I have developed a new goal in life
22:29:06 <coppro> to write a single executable that is, simulatenously every tool required by POSIX
22:29:43 <coppro> then I will submit it to dailyWTF and make millions
22:43:57 <coppro> Mathnerd314: It will if the GUI opening up is a side-effect of executing the command >:D
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22:47:28 <Mathnerd314> haha: first result is "tax evasion as white collar fraud": http://www.google.com/search?q=%22A%20rime%20of%20the%20ax%20in%20gaol%22
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22:50:45 <pikhq> aliseiphone: http://sprunge.us/GjCA So yeah, whaddya think?
22:51:59 <aliseiphone> Cursor was a bleeding hand, or was it a testicle?
22:53:32 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Dont align those wrap calls. Also, coreutils are MY job! *huff*
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22:54:15 <cpressey> aliseiphone: I realize making a language which is TC iff Goldbach's conjecture is true, is trivial. The hard part is finding some non-contrived way of doing it. (My latest design is only about 20% of the way there.)
22:54:21 <coppro> pikhq: is it just me, or is the decode table missing some things, like lower case letters?
22:54:53 <pikhq> coppro: Doesn't need to have lower-case letters.
22:55:06 <coppro> I'll take your word for it
22:55:27 <pikhq> It only contains every 6-bit sequence + '!', and a *whole* bunch of 0s + '!'.
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22:55:49 <pikhq> aliseiphone: No it isn't.
22:56:00 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Still not.
22:56:21 <pikhq> ... I don't freaking want a pointer to the first =.
22:56:36 <pikhq> ... Oh wait pointer-arithmetic.
22:56:59 <aliseiphone> Wasn't there a one that returned just the index too?
22:57:59 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Stop writing coreutils, heathen >_>
22:58:28 <coppro> aliseiphone: You missed my description of my version of coreutils
22:58:35 <aliseiphone> Why isn't fizzie here so I can tell him how weird he looks?
22:58:57 <coppro> all written in Java, in a single program which uses argv[0] to decide what to do. Also, as a side effect of execution, a GUI version is started up.
22:59:10 <pikhq> aliseiphone: YOU CAN WRITE ONE TWO
22:59:21 <pikhq> IT CAN BE BETTER THAN MINE
22:59:37 * coppro wants to implement the C library in assembly
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23:00:36 <coppro> WHY ARE YOU IGNORING ME FUNGOT
23:01:41 <aliseiphone> I never got the sniff chance to sniff tell sooobhiim cry
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23:03:49 <fungot> coppro: but i'm not sure. they're already running the local cable tv network, since i entered it by using scheme identifiers with colons in them :p
23:03:50 <fungot> aliseiphone: wellnowwhat.net/ alphabeticalseesay.xhtml is someone who is considering using a neural network in sadol
23:04:15 <oerjan> _someone_ is insanely lagged here...
23:04:16 <fungot> aliseiphone: then you want several tilemaps then no one here will fault you for using the internet
23:04:16 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
23:05:01 <oerjan> 07:30:43 <cpressey> <ais523> also amusing: Haskell has the same LR(infinity) parsing issues as INTERCAL
23:05:04 <oerjan> 07:30:46 <cpressey> That's just sad.
23:05:37 <oerjan> i thought haskell had a general greedy rule which resolves such things as ais523's case | let example
23:06:34 <oerjan> and haskell 2010 was supposed to resolve the one most insane parsing rule of haskell that interfered with that (operator precedence)
23:07:07 <oerjan> (and which no implementation actually followed to the insane letter)
23:07:32 <cpressey> And I thought Haskell was a kind of lemur found only in Madagascar, prized for its ability to detect tax evaders.
23:07:55 <oerjan> yes. yes that would be monumental wrongness.
23:08:20 <olsner> in the history of lemurs, no one has ever been so wrong
23:09:31 <olsner> anyway, LR(Inf) would still be bounded by input size, right?
23:09:48 <oerjan> and lemurs have a long and distinguished history (see: Disney's Dinosaur)
23:11:20 <aliseiphone> oerjan: you were in my dream (as well as fizzie and oklopol)
23:11:24 <pikhq> aliseiphone: It really amazes me how *awful* most of the C code out there looks.
23:11:41 <oerjan> is LR(Inf) any different from a general unambiguous context-free language...
23:11:42 <pikhq> http://base64.sourceforge.net/b64.c An example.
23:11:42 <aliseiphone> you just yelled something at me from the corridor though, I was talking to oklopol
23:12:05 <oerjan> i know all LR(k) for k < inf languages can be restructured into LR(1)
23:12:45 <olsner> imaginary real life, you mean?
23:13:04 <pikhq> Just... Revolting.
23:13:59 <cpressey> It's not even indented properly.
23:14:37 <olsner> C done right can be quite beautiful actually
23:14:51 <aliseiphone> fizzie does look really fucking weird btw.
23:14:59 <pikhq> olsner: Well aware.
23:16:10 <aliseiphone> not a SINGLE one of you is even SLIGHTLY curious as to the visual horror that is fizzie? sheesh!
23:16:14 <olsner> hard to tell how much of that is just about which whitespace and indentation conventions I'm used to, and how much is actually based on a sense of code quality
23:16:54 <olsner> while( !feof( infile ) ) looks ugly to me, but while (!feof(infile)) looks nice, for example
23:17:58 <pikhq> What looks ugly is while(!feof(f))for(...;!feof(f);...){...;while(!feof(f)) ...;if(!feof(f)) ...;}
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23:27:09 <olsner> hmm, time for bed... or maybe I should have another look at my trivial function that refuses to do what it should
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23:40:58 <cpressey> Well, I'll be. It *is* a long way to Tipperary.
23:42:51 <cpressey> Is there any way to get a copy of the tip of a Mercurial repo, without cloning the whole damn thing?
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23:45:25 <Sgeo> "Marine" seems to be Stargate Atlantean for "Redshirt"
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23:50:19 <cpressey> aliseiphone: You madcap anime chicks always crack me up.
23:50:53 <aliseiphone> Leaden is actually the name of my editor :P
23:51:24 <cpressey> Pull the branch! It's not supposed to hang like that.
23:52:23 <oerjan> Sgeo: well an ultramarine would be a blueshirt, wouldn't it
23:52:54 <cpressey> aliseiphone: Your editor? The one who compiles the manga you are in?
23:53:07 <cpressey> Or perhaps, you mean, a text editor that you are writing.
23:54:36 <cpressey> Not a very marketing-oriented name for a text editor, surely.
23:55:12 <cpressey> It's part of the ClumsyOaf IDE.
23:57:54 * cpressey has a feeling he will never understand
23:59:11 <aliseiphone> pikhq: They pay *every single penny* that you can't afford.
23:59:18 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Yes, they have financial aid for people whose *families* make less than $75,000 or $100,000.
23:59:57 <aliseiphone> cpressey: What... Exactly... Is not supposed to hang like that?
23:59:58 <cheater99> is it possible to have a set with O(1) lookup?